·-' '63 VOL. 2 NO.~ PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 - 6:00 P;M. 21 DECEMBER 1983

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4207 NM - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. the Premier for agreeing to allow me to be recognized before he makes his Ministerial Statement. I would like to ask the memb~rs of this hon. House, both sides of the House, and I make the motion, seconded by the hon. the Premier, to pass a unanimous resolution noting the sad passing of a former member of this hon. House in the person of Charles Maxwell Button, better known as Max Button.

Max Button was born in New Meibourne, Trinity Bay, on August 5, 1913 to the late Elisha and !<linnie Button, He was educated at the United Church School at New ~1elbourne, _ and joined Her Majesty's Police Force in 1931 and was promoted to sergeant in 1934 in charge of Labrador's police patrol. Max then became a relief inspector for the Department of Public Welfare from 1939 to 1949. He resigned on April 30, and entered public life in 1949 in support of the political party led by the hon. Joseph R. Smallwood.

Max was elected to this House on May 27, 1949 and re-elected November "lt: ... .~ , 1951, as the member for Trinity South. Max was a member of the Loyal Orange Association, Society of United Fishermen, the Laurier Club and Fellowship of Lions. He was a notable citizen, Mr. Speaker, of this Province while he lived, and it should be remembered in passing that he did much for this Province, for Newfoundland and Labrador,and he will be sorely missed. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Premier. 0 [, 3 4 o.J ., •

\ December 21, 1983 Tape No . 4207 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) for bringing this matter to the attention of the House and I, as the Leader of the Opposition indicated, wish to second the motion that we extend our sympatty to the family and to acknowledge the contribution that Mr . Button has made to the public life of this Province,and particularly along the lines that the Leader of the Opposition just said; Mr.

Button was a member of the Ran9er Force and was a good friend of my father's, and in that role, as most of us know in this House - the older members; not that I am a.ll that old - know the contribution that a whole host of individuals made to the social, economic, and cul tu .ral life of this Province in that role as memb ers of the Ranger Force and then latterly as a relief inspector around the Province. And I am sure there are a great many stories that can be told and were told by Mr. Button and others of his generation who contributed so greatly to the life of this Province.

And then ,finally, and thirdly, in relation to the late Mr . Buttcn, his contribution .. 8435

::. December 21,1983 Tape No. 4208 ah-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: through this hon. House. What a distinguished career to have,to begin one's life as a member of the Ranger Force.What better way to begin? Then to move on into the social sphere, particularly as a relief inspector 1 and then into the political sphere of this hon. House. So I wish to add my condolences to those of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) and I am sure that an appropriate message will be send by Your Honour to the family and those who are bereaved this day. There is no question that Mr.

Button and people of his ilk have contributed greatly to this Province and we are very, very sad to see another of his kind pass by at this point in time. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR.SPEAKER (RUssell): PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. It is very difficult to get up and give a statement, Mr. Speaker, after that. Mr. Speaker, since the hon.

Pierre De Bane the federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans announced his proposed 1984 groundfish and allocation plan,Newfoundland has been faced with the threat that a significant quota of our Northern cod will be caught by deep-sea trawlers from the other Eastern provinces - cod which our own Newfoundland plants have the capability to process and which many of them need to sustain or achieve a reasonable level of viability. As all members are aware,this government and this House has objected vigorously to this federal plan and our position has received widespread support,including that of this 9436

December 21,1983 Tape No. 4208 ah -2 PREMIER PECKFORD: hon. House and the members opposite and , of course, the support of several major fishing related organizations and community councils whose future is directly connected with the Northern cod stock . Since this matter came to light I have telexed the Prime Minister on three occasions stating this Province's objections and asking that a new plan be negotiated with the Province .

The last communication was sent to the Prime Minister yesterday, December 20th, 1983 after a careful analysis was completed of how the 1984 and long-term groundfish allocation plan violates the restructuring a~reement between the Province and the federal government signed pn September 26,1983 . As everyone can appreciate, the fact that 9437

December 21, 1983 Tape 420.9 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: the restructuring agreement is affected by this plan raises even further the seriousness of the federal government's proposed action. Mr. Speaker, the text of my telex to the Prime Minister is as follows: The Right Honourable Pierre Elliott Trudeau, Prime Minister of Canada, Ottawa, Ontario. "In recent communication with you and your Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Mr. De Bane, the Newfoundland Government has pointed out the reasons why we object to the proposed 1984 fish allocation plan.

We believe these reasons to be sound and rational ones. ' 1 In addition, the Newfoundland Government has reviewed 1 over the past few days, the re­ structuring agreement signed on September 26, 1983. It is clear to us that the proposed 1984 fish allocation plan violates the spirit and letter of this agreement. The first three objectives outlined in the agreement state:

a) to find a just and lasting solution for the rebuilding of the deep-sea fishery which recognizes the fundamental role which the fishery plays in Newfoundland and Labrador;

b) objective, to see restructuring proceed in an orderly way with minimum disruption to harvesting, processing and marketing; and

c) to create a company whose primary objective is to strengthen the Newfoundland fishery, a company that is economically viable, efficient and modernized so that it will be highly competitive, especially in international markets." Mr. Speaker, those objectives were no.t entered into callowly or over a number of minutes or hours or days or weeks, it took months to formulate them so that the Province felt comfortable 1that everything 9438

December 21, 1983 Tape 4209 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: was being accommodated. "The 1984 proposed fish alloca­ tion plan and its implications beyond 1984 violate these objectives. For example, how can the incremental increase in Northern cod be allocated to non-Newfoundland interests without violating objective (

c) which was to create a company whose primary objective is to strengthen the Newfoundland fishery!' More glaring is how

section 10 of the agreement is being violated.

Section 10 begins with the following - and, Mr. Speaker, just for the record, I remember quite clearly the discussions and the negotiations over

section 10, especially to another part of

section 10 which I will come to in a second. But here is how

section 10 began: "The two governments would establish a resource utilization task force composed of equal representation." And it went on to say - this is just in the

preamble - "The first priority" - and, of course, this got in t.heie because we insisted - "The first priority of the task force would be to review resource availability to fish plants on the Burin Peninsula and to report within one year." That was the

preamble to 9439

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4210 MJ - l PP£MIER PECKFORD: to

Section lO, that the first priority of this task force that was going to be established. So I go on to say in my Telex, 'Surely any plan for fish allocation which changes patterns which existed at the time of the signing of the agreement and have an impact over several years,makes the whole process of this task force almost meaningless. ' ~·Thy did we put first priority in there to study ~V'hat fish was going to be available if suddenly we knew that two or three months later the patterns that were basing that provision on were going to be changed? In addition, in the description of the mandate of this task force - not only did we put in the

preamble which said the task force would be established; two 1 that the first priority would be resource utilization, we went on to further refine the intent of that

preamble - in the description of the mandate of this task force, the task force is to "review and report upon" - what? - "rn .easures for the utilization of the resource in a manner which would promote local employment and would enhance the long term economic viability of the fishing industry." There can be no doubt what "promote local employment" means, nor "would enhance the long term viability of the fishing industry" means, that is pretty clear. And surely it means the viability of the fishing industry as it exists, that is what we were talking about.

We were not talking about some fictitious industry, we are talking about the industry as it exists right new. All the plants, all the places that were listed in the thing at the end of the agreement, we are talking about here and now and the industry as it is. The Proposed 1984 management plan takes away from the viability of the fishing industry and 9440

December 21 , 1983 Tape No. 4210 MJ - 2 PRE~.IER PECKFORD: of the agreement. hence violates this

section '' ~.r. Prime ~ti.nister, the Government of ;.te~ oTfo undland and Labrador signed the restructuring agreement in good faith. Measures now being proposed undermine the agreement and seriously call into question your government's commitment to a strong and vibrant Ne\oTfoundland fishing industry and, Mr . Speaker, to seeing a company in which both of us have committed large sums of money now having its viability put into question even before it has been fully established." End of Telex. As you can see, Mr . Speaker, the Telex is self -explanatory.

Before we have even had a chance to fully implement the fisheries restructuring agreement, the federal government is already taking steps which could only serve to dilute the viability of the ne\o~ company. As I indicated to the Prime 9441

December 21, 1983, Tape 4211, Page l -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: Minister, the restructuring agreement was signed in good faith. Since its signing, this government, Mr. Speaker, has co-operated to the absolutely fullest extent possible to ensure that the most important agreement signed with the Province since Confederation is implemented with all the care and consideration which it demands and with the urgency that it requires.

And we have put people to work, quite a few people within the Government of Newfoundland, on a full-time basis, travelling around on planes to Ottawa, Halifax, or Montreal,or wherever we have had to go, taking people out of their normal jobs and just letting them go full blast on that, sacrificing their families and everything else in the last several weeks. It has just been unbelievable For our part, we have done nothing which would in any way mitigate against the complete and effective impl~mentation of the agreement.

However, if the federal government proceeds with the 1984 and long-term groundfish management plan, this Province will :be left to wonder how serious the federal government really is about trying to achieve the objectives on which the restructuring agreement is based. If they are truly serious, Mr. Speaker, then they will take immediate steps to negotiate a new groundfish management plan with this Province. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is the second day in a row now we have had this kind of Ministerial Statement from the Premier.

Obviously he thinks he has a good issue and he is going to milk it for everything it is worth. But it is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that it should be done in a political way. Now, let me remind the House what 9442

December 21, 1983, Tape 4211, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY : it is we are talking about here . And before I do that, let me restate our position, and it always has been our position, that 100 per cent of the Nothern cod stock should be processed in Newfoundland plants . Now, Mr. Speaker, what we are talking about here is out of the total allowable catch this year, of 266,000 metric tons for 1984, we are talking about 12,500 that will be used for the resource -short plants, for the independent trawlers that the hon. gentleman referred to. MR. MORGAN: plants . MR. W'MRY : trawlers . Not the resource-short No , the independent Let me give the House a breakdown of the allowable catch; 20,000 9443

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4212 so - 1 MR. NEARY: metric tons will go to the foreigners,or 7.5 per cent; 124,000 metric tons will be for the Newfoundland inshore fishery; 112,000 will be for the Canadian offshore fishery; and 10,000 metric tons for the resource-short plants, the seasonal plants. So, Mi. Speaker, the real issue is the increase from 9,500 up to 12,500, I think, the real issue is the 3,000 metric ton increase - PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: independents. MR. NEARY: 3,000 metric tons. No, no. - yes, Mr. Speaker. (Inaudible) allocations to the To the independents it is MR.

MORGAN: No, no, it is 12.5 per cent is the total dee-sea quota for the independents. MR. NEARY: Eleven point two per cent, Mr. Speaker. And out of the 12,500 metric tons, 25 per cent will be corning to Newfoundland,to Ocean Harvesters in Harbour Grace. So there will be a very small increase go to Nova Scotia. But be that as it may, Mr. Speaker, I believe what the Premier now is admitting is thatrduring the negotiations for the agreement, he was so anxious to get an agreement to restructure the deep-sea fishery, that he omitted to discuss these matters, Mr. Speaker.

He is admitting now his failure to have enough foresight to realize what could happen. Now he is also admitting that when he signed the agreement that he gave away whatever authority the Province had to the Government of Canada. Now that he is in trouble, Mr. Speaker,~nd has realized the mistakes he had made, he is now like a puppy yapping at the heels of the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De B~ne) who is trying to save what we have left of the fishery in this Province, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 9444

Dece .mber 21, 1983 Tape No . 4212 so - 2 MR . SPEAKER (Russell ) : Order, please! MR . NEARY: The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that they have concentrated their efforts in the last several years on oil. All they could think about was offshore oil . They had oil on the brain, they had oil for breakfast, dinner and supper and they neglected the fishery. And now the hon . gentleman can foresee problems \vith the supercompany and r· would get the impression, Mr. Speaker, we would on tnis side of the House, that 9445

December 21, 1983, Tape 4213, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: what he is doing, he is looking for an out. He is now looking for some way to get out of the mess that he has created. He gave away the authority to the Government of Canada, whatever authority we had in this Province. And, Mr. Speaker, it is rather regrettable and it is tragic, because by playing politics with this matter it is not going to resolve anything. As I suggested to the han. gentleman yesterday, if he wants to go to Ottawa to discuss these matters with the Prime Minister or the federal Minister of Fisheries(Mr.

De Bane), I would be glad to join him. As a matter of fact, I would try to arrange a meeting for the administration, for the hon. gentleman. MR. MORGAN: They might attend the meetings, but you will not change their minds. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, these matters have to be settled around the negotiating table. And by coming in playing little political games with this matter, the hon. gentleman may think he has a good issue, and, Mr.

Speaker, he is milking it for everything it is worth, but I would say to the hon. gentleman that it is not going to resolve anything, that will only put us on a disaster course. It would be far better to sit down quietly, without involving partisan politics, without ranting or raving or squabbling or fighting and try to resolve these matters. And if I can help in any way, Mr. Speaker, to set up a meeting with the Prime Minister, I would do it; I would be glad to accompany the hon. gentleman to Ottawa to try to get these matters resolved. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 9446

December 21, 1983, Tape 4213, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Order, please! Before we continue,I would like to welcome to the gallery Mr. Wilson Belbin, the Vice-Principal of Jens Haven Memorial School in Nain, Labrador, in the district of Torngat Mountains. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this may be the last opportunity that we will have in this House to ask questions during this session.

I would like to end up my questioning the way I began in the early part of this session,by asking question about the offshore that drove the Premier and the Government House Leader(Mr. Marshall) snarky, questions about offshore drill rigs and safety and so forth. So we may as well end up on the note with which ~~~- ~ Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the han. gentleman if he has any knowledge about SEDCO 706, And again I have to remind the hen. gnetleman that I was right about the zapata Ugland and about the reduction in the work force. And, Mr. Speaker, I hope nobody will interpret my questions as statements.

This is the Question Period and I am putting questions to the han. gentleman. MR. WARREN: And you were right about the breakdown off the harbour, too. MR. NEARY: Yes_, I way right, by the way, and I will come back to that probably next session; that was not an exercise that day when the rope got entangled in the propeller of the service ship. But let me ask the han. gentleman about SEDCO 706 . Does he have 9447

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4214 HJ - 1 MP .• NEARY: ahout SEDrO 706, does he ~ave any knowledge that the crew, the employees on SEDCO 706 have been given their notice that they will terminated, that SEDCO 706 will stop drilling sometine early January? Could the hon. gentleman tell us then what will happen to SEDCO 706 ,if indeed he has any knowledge? I think what L~e hon. gentleman resents more than anything else is that we always get the information before the hon. gentleman gets it and that is ~>~hat he resents and that is \'lhy I believe he is being so nasty about these matters.

But does he have any kno\<Tledge of what is going to happen in the New Year ¥Tith SEDCO 706? HR. SPEAKER (Russell): the Council. HR. ~1AP-.SHALL: The hon. the President of Hr. Speaker, 111ha t a grand speech. ~~at a marvellous speech for the hon. gentleman to end this Session with. .,he hon. ,.entleman says \<Te should end the Session. I myself had hoped we were going to be here, !~r. Speaker, for Christmas Day. I would not want to give the hon. gentleman the idea I am calling him a turkey 1 but I thought it would be most appropriate for the Leader of the Opposition (Hr.

Neary) to be put on the table of the House and perhaps stuffed for Christmas Day. MR. NEARY: will see ~~e two turkeys. HR. ~1ARSHALL: Go dO\m to Haunt Cashel and you Mr. Speaker, since we are being so affable today 1 I would like to say to the hon. gentleman that as much as we would like to control everyL~ing, as the hon. gentleman knows \V'e ~trant to control everything in Newfoundland, every person, every ant, every snake, although there are no snakes that crawl anyway, but, I1r. Speaker, that particular rig, the charter is not being rener,;.ed. The situation ''lith 84 4 B ·

December 21, 1983 Ta9e No. 4214 H.J - 2 MR . MARSHALL: res9ect to the emp loyees , of course, is a matter Eor the companies t."lemselves. Al l we can do, ~x. Speaker, is do what we have done, to secure the largest number of jobs possib le for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians as t!1.ey explore the resource Nhich \ole own and \.,.hi~ t.,.e bronol-tt into Confederation •o~ith us. And will continue to do that .

But these peo9le are the employees of the company anc I have no doubt that these 9eo ple, having had the training that they have gotten as a result of the application of the regulations put down and imposed by this goverru'1ent so that all of these young Newfoundlanders have had a chance to get employment,are very eligible for re -employment on the ensuing rigs that will be on the offshore eX9loring our resource - I have to say this to the !1.on . gentleman because he does not seem to underst~~d- it is our resource with us. ·that ~:ore brought into Confederation 9449

Decanber 21, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 4215 NM - 1 The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. What the han. gentleman does not seem to realize was that the Premier took our resource and gave it to three judges of the Newfoundland Appeals Court to decide on and they decided that Newfoundland did not own the resources. So the han. gentleman sitting next to the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) gave it away when he turned it over to the Newfoundland Appeals Court, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I have to say this, that we have heard so much moaning and qro~ning and the han. gentleman has been looking at us with calf's eyes, that we think it is time to close down the House. Let me ask the han. gentleman my supplementary question. Can the hon. gentleman assure this House that if SEDCO 706 stops drilling in the early New Year, that when the rig is brought in for its annual overall, its annual refit, that it will not be brought to Halifax, instead it will be brought to Marystown? Can the han. gentleman assure the House that that will happen, Mr.

Speaker, that the rig will not be taken to Halifax for its annual refit? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if he is referring to me as having calf's eyes, or any member on this side, but I would say what we have scored this Fall have been bull's-eyes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 9450

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4215 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I regret very much the statements made by the hon. gentleman from time to time that we gave it away. Now I do not think anybody in Newfoundland, and certainly not the hon. gentleman's friends up in Ottawa, would ever accuse u: of givin~ .it away. But it is rather dangerous because the hon. gentleman has made these statements from time to time.

As a matter of fact,after our announcement on Winter drilling last Friday I saw on the teleprompter- and this goes out to the Mainland, to the Atlantic Provinces words to the effect the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) said it was rather dangerous for the Government of Newfoundland to be making regulations of that nature because the Government of Newfoundland cannot enforce them. Now I say to the hon. gentleman, we will see who can enforce it, The will of the people of t~is Province will eventually enforce it if it is not enforced elsewhere.

And I say to the han. gentleman it is very dangerous for the han. gentleman to be making those statements. I would remind him that the final judicial determination is not in yet on that, number one. I would also remind the hon. gentleman that the oil companies recognize the fact that there has to be co-operation between both orders of government if drilling is going to occur. And when the hon. gentleman,who has been entrusted with the great responsibility of being Leader of the Opposition 1 is reported as making those statements outside.

Not all people outside know the hon. the Leader of the Opposition outside as we do, we know him inside, and it is pretty 9451

...... December 21, 1983 Tape 4216 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: dangerous when he does that as a representative of the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Now, let me say with respect to the rigs that come in, whither they will go, we will do everything possible under the sun to see that these rigs come in for refit into Marystown or into the Province of Newfoundland. SOME HON. K&~ERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: Every single possible job, be it on the exploration offshore, the servicing of the rigs, the repair of the rigs and what have you, will come to Newfoundlanders, but it will only come to Newfoundlanders, Mr. Speaker, because we have a government that is exercising its rights over its resource, and as soon as we have elected representatives,like the han. gentleman, casting imputations that we may not own it, you will certainly see it all fly away to the good Province of Quebec and to Nova Scotia and all over the place.

So I say to the han. gentleman in the Christmas season where we are all full of bon vivant good will and all the rest of it, that he should hold and watch his tongue when he speaks as a representative of the people of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. ~ • . ... 4... .- Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman said all they scoredwere bull's-eyes. Well, I would drop the eyes part of it if I were the han. gentleman. They scored, alright, but not bull's-eyes. They should drop the eyes 9452

December 21, 1983 Tape 4216 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: part of it. Now, Mr. Speaker, as far as safety is concerned, I do not think anybody in this Province will dare question my feeling about safety offshore. The hon. gentleman should reflect back on what he said and the letters I wrote him prior to the Ocean Ranger disaster, Mr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: That is right. MR. NEARY: How dare that hen. gentleman! He should be the last in this House to get up and heap scorn and ridicule on the Opposition, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is proceeding to make a speech and I would suggest that he might like to ask a question. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is any doubt in anybody's mind where I stand on safety offshore. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hen. gentleman this in connection with safety. He just made a political statement there on Sedco 706, whether or not it w·ould go to Marystown or Nova Scotia. We will just have to wait and see who wins that battle. HR. CARTER: Who are you rooting for? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman about Sedco 710 which did find its way into Marystown. Is the hon. gentleman aware of any incidents that occurred when Sedco 710 stopped drilling and was taken under tow,about ten days ago, to be towed in to Marystown? Is the hon. gentleman aware of any incidents that occurred in connection with moving that rig from the Grand Banks to Marystown ?. 9453

December 21, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MARSHALL: Tape No. 4217 SD - 1 The han. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, I am aware of incidents that there was a problem with the chain. We are all aware of that. I am aware of that comin~ in there was a little bit of concern - MR. NEARY: Oh! I see! MR. MARSHALL: - somewhat ?f a list developed. --· but that was repaired. Now I do not know why the han. gentleman is engaged in twenty questions or what it is. I mean what is the purpose? If he wants to ask a question, why does he not come to the meat of his question - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: - and ask it directly? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, maybe I did not make myself clear to the han. gentleman. I am asking the han. gentleman about this small list that he just referred to, Mr. Speaker. Is it correct, is it true, that prior to taking SEDCO 710 in tow that they rose the rig - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - safety is uppermost in our minds, Mr.

Speake~- that they rose the rig too far out of the water,instead of bringing it up to a certain number of feet, they brought it up more than they should have and that the list of the rig was severe? It was not just a normal list, it was not a small list, it was not trivial, it was not a little thing, and it was only good luck that they were able to upright that rig and manage to get her towed into Marystown. Can the han. gentleman tell us whether or not he has any evidence, any facts, in this regard? MR. SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. 9454

December 21, 1983 Tap·e No. 4217 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman wants :to get up in the House and give innuendo and rumour and all the rest of it~ If the hon. gentleman does have any facts that he ,, wishes to put before the Legislature or he wishes to g.ive to the Petroleum Directorate, all he has to do is just give them to us and we will certainly see that they are fully investigated. But I am not going to comment on his innuendo or his rumour. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I would consider it a great favour in the ten minutes remaining in the Question Period - MR. NEARY: We have longer than that.

MR. MARSHALL: -if the hon. gentleman could direct his questions elsewhere because it has come to my attention, from my fans and constituents1that responding to questions of the hon. gentleman does not do my credibility any good. s·oME EON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 9455

December 21,1983 Tape No. 4218 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, ,.,e cannot help it if the han. gentleman has a credibility problem The more exposure we get for the hon. ~P.ntleman,by the way,the more it affects the credibility of the administration. We would like to get the Government House Leader (Mr.Marshall) on television every night. If we could get him on television every night we would have her made. He is the best secret weapon we have, Mr. Speaker, for undermining this administration. But let me get back to the SEDCO 710. This is Question Period.

We do not make statements during Question Period, we merely ask questions and I am askinq the han. rrentJ.ei':!.:>.n sgme very serious questions about SEDCO 710 . The han. gentleman indicated a few moments ago that prior to taking the rig in tow to bring her into Harystown a small list developed. Now could the han. gentleman elaborate on that and tell us how small that list was and what inforrna .tion he has in connection with this situation that developed, this incident, Mr. Speaker, that developed when they were moving the rig from the .Grand Banks to Marystown? MR. SPEAKER: the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The han.

President of Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat amused. The hon. gentleman talks about the reaction to me on television. I wish the han. gentleman could have tuned in to Channel 13 last night and seen the little fellow from Gamba and the press and who should erupt from the bottom of the building but the hon. gentlemanA 9456

December 21,1983 Tape No. 4218 ah -2 SOME RON .MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! PREMIER PECKEORO: I recommend an oscar. MR.MARSHALL : I would suggest, Mr.Speaker, instead of a Throne Speech to commence the next session we should bring in a hugh television screen and give everyone a viewing of it . The hon . gentleman was good last night as well as the hon . member for the Strait of Bell Isle (~tr.Roberts) with his Joey hat on and his looking out the window and saying,'You would think there would be more demonstrators down there from Memorial. The young people; says Mr .

Roberts , you then heing a young person, they cannot feel too much about it because it is a nice fine day and there is not that many of them out there,Mr. Smallwood .' So if you talk about tP.levision,I suggest that the hon. gentleman get a Betamax, as I have ,and look at it. I have ordered it again and I 9457

Dece~ber 21, 1983 Tape No. 4219 ~~J - 1 MR. MARSHALL: am going to be playing in my house every single da~· for my children and my grandchildren, and I hope they pass it on. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I have answ·ered the question. All I will say is that there are always problems offshore and there are always going to be certain problems offshore. It Ni'l.c, reported to me that there was somewhat of a list with the SEDCO 71:1 w::1en it "!as being towed in but 1 thank heavens, Mr.

Speaker, nothing untoward happened, T~e SEDCO 710 is safely in dock at ~1arystmm, it is waiting on chains and it is waiting on a decision with respect to other repairs to it. And that is all I can say to the han. gentleman. MR. CALLAN: MR. S?E~~ER (Russell) Bellevue. Mr. Speaker. The han. the me~er for ~m. C.ll-.LLAN: Hr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Po11cation (!1s. Verge) • l>s the minister remembers, as I am sure all teachers and all of us in the Legislature remember, there w·as a lockout involving teachers last Spring. SOHE HON. MEMBERS : Wrong ! Wror. g! MR.

CALLAN: I anticipated those catcalls from the other side 1 Hr. Speaker, but whatever you ~11ant to call it, a rose by any other name. No~.,, Hr. Speaker, as a follow-up to that fiasco that took place, whatever you want to call it, last Spring 1 there \llere supposed to be some amendments to the pension legislation of teachers brought into this Legislature during the Fall Session. In recent days, Mr. Speaker, I have received some correspondence from sol!le teachers in my own district and I: want to ask the 8458

December 21 1 1983 Tape No. 4219 MJ - 2 MR. CALLAN : !tinister of ~ducation (Ms . Verge) to comment. Number one/ the teachers who wrote me say, .''l.W<' of these six amendments must be studied by an actuary. However 1 the government has dela yed for seven months the hiring o.= this person.' N0\11 would the minister com.~ent on that allegation by these school teachers. Has not the actuary been hired? Jl.nd if so ,t11hy have seven months gone by and nothing been done about that problem? MR . SP~~ER (Russell): The hon . the Minister of Education. l1S . VERGE : Mr .

Speaker, first of all to set the record stra:.ght,the incident last Spring that the hon. member referred to was clearly a stri~e. ~here is no doubt at all about that. T.h.e lat11yers for both sides of that dispute ruled that there was a strike. 945 9

December 21, 1983 Tape 4220 EC - 1 MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I believe the hon. member is referring to a number of proposed changes in the teachers pension legislation which have been advocated by the Newfoundland Teachers Association. I have had discussions about those proposed changes with the President of the NTA this Fall. The proposed amendments fall into at least two categories.

One category is provisions which have been definitely agreed by government and which simply have to be brought before the Legislature for passage, and those changes will be submitted to all hon. members for consideration in the Spring session of the Legislature.

There is another category of change which is different, on which there has been no agreement other than an under­ taking to consider the changes, and if my memory serves me correctly - and it may not, because pensions is quite a technical area - the proposal involving the requirement of an actuarial study, vThich I understand would not only extend to the Teachers Pension Plan but the pension plans of all public servants or former public servants, is in that second category of change which has not been agreed by government, on which government has simply given an undertaking to the NTA to examine.

And the matter of obtaining actuarial experts to carry out this study is in the capable hands of the officials of Treasury Board and the Department of Finance. I understand that that will be done expeditiously and the teachers' suggestion will be examined in the light of the findings of that actuarial study. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for Bellevue. 9460

December 21, 1983 Tape 4220 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN : Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) must have received some copies of the same sort of stuff that I received, In any event, she anticipated my second question and talked about the other category, category number two , and the no-cost amendment items and she said that that will be in the Spring session even though it was supposed to have been in this Fall session, according to the teachers. But let me ask the minister, 946 ·1

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4221 NM - l MR. CALLAN: then, is she saying that there will be no actuary hired, that it will be handled by officials in Treasury Boardand there will not be a person hired? Is that what the minister is saying? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: No, Mr. Speaker, I did not say that there will not be an actuary hired, I said the opposite. Action is being taken by Treasury Board and the Department of Finance to engage an actuarial expert to conduct this study. My colleague, the President of Treasury Board (Mr.

Marshall) is a better authority than I am on the mechanics of the engagement of the actuarial experts. I would just like to come back to the hon. member's

preamble. There was never any firm agreement to act on the changes which have been committed in this present sitting of the Legislature. I have personal knowledge of that because I have discussed it with the President of the NTA this Fall. I do not think there is any such thing as an improvement to the teachers pension plan that does not cost anything. I think the hon. memqer will see upon examination that all of these changes, including those which have been definitely agreed to,involve cost to the taxpayers and the Government of the Province. MR. CALLAN: Credit for teaching service before age eighteen. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, there is no point in asking the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) any further questions. I will be happy to mail out her answers to the 9462

December 21, 1983 Tape No . 4221 NM - 2 MR. CALLAN: 8,000 or so teachers in the Province. But I have a new question, Mr. Speaker. I might note that it seems as though the Christmas present that the teachers were expecting will now be an Easter present when it is brought in in the Spring session, these amendments. Mr . Speaker, I have a new question for the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) and it pertains to safety in the home and pa .rticularly, of course 1 during the Christmas Season when we have Christmas trees that can be fire hazards in the home and so on, but of course fire in residences are threats all year-round . I would like to ask the Minister of Justice if his department is takin g any special measures to try to educate a public awareness proqranune or tllhatever, to educate the residents of this Province as pertains to fire safety , especially during the Christmas Season? MR. Sir-U JfS: fires . MR . CALLAN: 9463 The minister in charge of No, Mr. cardoulis is.

-' December 21, 1983, Tape 4222, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I had considered getting a Santa Clause suit and spending a couple of days going around advising people about Christmas. Certainly the Province and the various fire departments, the St. John's Fire Department, the fire departments throughout the Province, many of them volunteer, the Fire Commissioner's office, throughout the year have many programmes with respect to fire safety. Fire safety, I think, has to be regarded as a year-long process.

Certainly one can say with Christmas trees there is a danger, but on Labour Day there can be dangers from having fires out in the woods. On the 24th. of May, when people are not used to having campfires, you could also have a special kind of a danger. On the 12th. of July, after the parade, perhaps there could be additional dangers. On St. Patrick's Day there could be other ones, and on Easter Sunday some of the Easter egg wrappings or this or that could cause special hazards.

All I am trying to say, and I am not minimizing the legitimacy of the hon. gentleman's question,, what I am endeavouring to say is I think it is much better to have fire safety as a consciousness factor through­ out the year and not isolate specific days or specific events. Because,• otherwise, I think it becomes extremely costly, number one, and also becomes confusing to the public. I just got a little brochure here now on Christmas safety hints, and this was circulated - MR. CALLAN: the go. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: You did not know it was on I knew it was on the go, but I did not know it was so close or I could have sent it over to the hon. .' gentleman. 9464 '·

December 21, 1983, Tape 4222, Page 2 -- apb SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR . OTTENREIMER: It has a Christmas tree and this qives a very good answer to the hon. gentleman 's question. \'ie certainl y encourage people to allO\v bulbs to cool off before removing or touching. We also say, •Proper planning for Christmas lighting enhances sa£ety but will also help you to get the best out of your display. Set up trees away from drapes and from heat sources, such as fireplaces, TV sets or radiators' . 9455

December 21, 1983, Tape 4223, Page 1 -- apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: "Never' - this is important - 'never, never decorate a tree with candles. Do not purchase a tree that has dried out; test twigs and needles to see that they are not brittle. When string is provided with insulating washers on sockets, use them for greater safety, it keeps water from settling in: MR. NEARY: Is that the Premier's picture Gn the back of that? In that column in the right hand corner, is that the Premier's picture? MR. OTTENHEIMER: a picture of me in my youth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: That one there? That is Hear, hear! MR.

OTTENHEIMER: And there is a picture of the hen. the member for Bellevue(Mr. Callan). There is a picture there of the hon. the member for Bellville, or Bellevue, wherever the hell he is. However, I know that answers should be brief, but we certainly do concentrate on a year­ long anti-fire programme. I think the hen. gentleman will find this particular brochure very good. 'In case a fire does start, do not allow the tree to block access to doors or windows'. In the event of fire, even if a fire started that had nothing to do with the tree, if the tree is in the way it can block access.

But I think the most important part, to which I would like to call the hen. gentleman's attention, is not to decorate the tree with candles. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: question for Santa Clause. MR. CALLAN: Clause, all he needs is a suit. Hear, hear! The hen. the member for Mr. Speaker, I do not have a He is shaped like Santa 9466

December 21, 1983, Tape 4223, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: close this place up . MR. WARREN: I believe it is time to ~tr. Speaker, I have a question not for Santa Clause, but for Mrs. Clause, the Minister of Education (Ms . Verge). Sometime ago, Mr . Speaker, I asked the Ministe.r of Education a question conce.rn.ing a student loans, in particular the appeals and those who are waiting for the loans to come through. The minister advised the House at that time that there were very few appeals, there was no backlog . Can the minister still say there is no backlog of students waiting for loans in this Province? S467

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4224 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to report that great strides have been made in the administration of student aid and in the processing of revie"tofs and appeals - MR. WARREN: You told lies the last time. MS. VERGE: - to the staff appeals officer. As a matter of. fact,the member posing the question congratulated me for speedy service - MR. WARREN: That is right. So you told lies the last time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MS. VERGE: - on behalf of a couple of his constituents. MR. WARREN: You told lies last week. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the number of staff appeals officers in the student aid office has just been increased from two to three, the third position has now been filled. Of course, that was i~ moti9n . sam~ . time ":2'<?..· _ I.t: _ ... was in the hands of the Public Service Commission. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, ·please! MS '. VERGE: - who have completed their work and recommended a very suitable candidate for that position. Mr.

Speaker, all the employees in the student aid office have be .en working extremely hard and diligently to satisfy all the requests from post-secondary education students. And as I reported to the House earlier, the workload has been extremely heavy this Fall with the unexpectedly high enrollment in the university and colleges throughout the Province this semester. MR. SPE'AKER: Order, please! Time for the Question Period has expired. SOME HON. !-1EMBERS : By leave. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no. MR. SPEAKER: L8ave is not granted. 9468

December 21, 1983 MR. NEARY: MR . SPEAKER (Russe ll) : MR. NEARY: Tape No. 4224 so - 2 A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. I heard the hon . the Premier say ~Y leave he wanted the Question Period to - PREMIER PECKFORD: We would need unanimity over for when I made that proposal, l<lr. Speaker. I have no control. MR. NEARY : No control. PREMIER PECKFORD: I lost complete control over the caucus. They are all going their separate ways. It is terrible and I am going to have to consult the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) a.nd find out how he keeps everybody in line.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HISCOCK: Bear, hear. Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS The hon. member ~or : Eagle River . Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition that again was presented in this House before. And it is with regard to a petition, Mr . Speaker, .Y.he prayer of the petition is: 'We the resident of Lodge Bay hereby petition the provincial government to continue with the construction of a road from Lodge Bay to Mary's Harbour and · 'that a 9469

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4225 MJ - 1 MR. HISCOCK: bridge be constructed across the Lodae Bav River." At the present time the road only ~s - to one side of the community leaving 90 per cent of the population, as well as the school, the post office, the Community hall, the Fishe~m~£ 'S SUF Hall and two general stores not connected to this road. At present children and residents must commute back and forth by rowboat and this becomes extremely hazardous during the I freeze-ups and thaw-outs each year.

When the Coastal Labrador DREE agreement was signed the Provincial government asked for money from DREE to allow fish to be transported from Lodge Bay to the plant in Mary's Habour,and hence it was included under the economic DREE programme. But the Province did not have the correct sgrvey done, did not do their homework and once the agreement was signed they found out 1 of course 1they did not have enough money to construct the road. Thev also did not even know that Lodge Bay was a divided community, part on each side of the riv.er, and that they needed a bridge. The officials are now trying to find money.

As I said 1 I have presented petitions before in this House and we find that 'vhen the Opposition presents them that somehow or other there is a lack of money. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Daw~) wa1:1_j_us.:t down in his own district of St. Geor~e,'s and opened up the new Codroy bridge. If you go down into the Minister of Transportation's district 1 and also the former Hinister of Transporation's district in Bonavista, you will find that almost everything in their districts is paved driveways, roads to private cabins, etc •. Yet, Mr.

Speaker, we find here a community where the children have got to be put in a rowboat, hauled across the ice-just in case the ice is not solid - hauled back and forth. As the Minister of 9470

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4225 MJ - 2 MR. HISCOCK : Culture, Recreation and Youth (~tr . Simms ) said, 'The same as his father ." \'/ell, I hope that his grandchildren do not have to do it and I hope that his children never h~e to do it. Mr. Speaker, I hope that the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) will take the old bailey bridge that was used in Codroy and bring it up to Mary 's Harbour and Lodge Bay, continue upgrading the road , continue it on the other side of the river in the area where all of the residents live and, while they are in that area , upgrade the road and the bridge in Mary 's Harbour itself. So, Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be tabled to the appropriate minister.

It is unfortunate that the Minister of Transportation is not here but I understand that he is out on business of his department and I hope that the petition finds its way to his office and that we will work together for the betterment of the people in the Lodge Bay - Mary 's Harbour area to improve conditions for these people . This time next year when 9471

December 21, 1983 Tape 4226 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: we are closing the House we will be able to reflect back on it and realize that the children in Lodge Bay and Mary's Harbour do not have to row back and forth to school each day, and people go to get groceries and their mail using the Bailey bridge over that part of the road. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I just want to take a moment or two to support the petition just presented by my colleague, the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) on behalf of the residents of Lodge Bay. Mr. Speaker, I did not cross the river in a rowboat, as the hon. gentleman just described, but I did go across the river on a Ski-doo last Winter. MR. SIMMS: Was it frozen? MR. NEARY: Well, we are not like the Premier. I cannot walk on water like the Premier can! But, Mr. Speaker, I went down to visit Mary's Harbour, Southern Labrador, flew down with my hon. colleague,and had an opportunity to visit Lodge Bay while I was there.

I went from Mary's Harbour to Lodge Bay on a Ski-doo and then we went across the river and we had a very nice meeting in the hall across the river, Mr. Speaker. And I think it is shameful that due to an oversight on the part of the engineers that these people on the opposite s±de of the river will not get the services of a road, Mr. Speaker, in the work currently underway. It is the most beautiful part of Labrador I think I have ever been in. I never enjoyed a couple of days like it in my life, except 9 l~ 7 2

December 21, 1983 Tape 4226 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: ice fishing last Winter up off Rigolet. That is an experience that every member of this House should have. Mr. Speaker, when I came back from Lodge Bay that night, as my hon colleague will remember - I was driving the Ski-doo, my hon. colleague was sitting on the back, and he was holding on tight for dear life and I was really giving it to her - a moonlight night, northern lights, the most beautiful night I think I have ever witnessed in my life. It is an experience that every member of this House should have, Mr. Speaker.

And I think it is a shame that the people in Lodge Bay on the other side of the river do not have the services of a road because of an oversight on the part of the engineering department - I am not sure if it is private consultants or the engineers in the Department of Transportation who made the mistake. But it should be rectified, Mr. Speaker, at as early a date as possible, because this road is going to be of tremendous service, not only to the people who live in that area, but it will be a tremendous tourist attraction. And I would urge the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) who is not in his seat today - obviously he is out looking for the fixtures and the furniture and all the other things that were taken off the ferry boat when she was cannibalized 'before she went to Marys town - but, Mr. Speaker, I would urge him, even though he is not in his seat, to take whatever steps are necessary in the near future to see that that matter concerning the road in Lodge Bay is rectified. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): I do not know if any member to my left is going to rise to this petition, but before that I just want to draw members' attention to the fact 9473

December 21, 1983 Tape 4226 EC - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : that routine business should end by 4:00 p.m. on Wednesdays. If we are going to dispense with Private Members Day then, I am prepared to recognize somebody to my left if he wishes to speak to this petition. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: . The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : I think the position is that we have agreed to dispense with Private Members Day, so I think we would agree that the normal rules apply. so the petition should be dealt with. MR. NEARY: That is okay with us, Mr. Speaker.

ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion, the following bills read a third time, ordered passed and their titles be as on the Order Paper: A bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's (Loan) Act, 1978." (Bill No. 60). A bill, "An Act To Amend Certain Acts Resp ·ecting Government Departments To Provide The Power For Ministers To Enter Into Agreements Subject To Specified Terms And Conditions." (Bill No. 19). A bill, "An Act Respecting Certain Powers Of Appointment." (Bill No. 62). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Retail Sales Tax Act, 1978." (Bill No. 87). 9474

December 21,1983 1ape No. 4227 ah-1 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Authorize The Lieutenant-Governor In Council To Enter Into An Agreement With British Newfoundland Corporation Limited And N.M. Rothchild & Sons Limited And Brinco Mining Limited," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 90) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Crown Lands Act," (Bill No. 74) MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.POWER: Thank you, Mr.Speaker.

In introducing Bill No. 74 I just want to say - and Dill No. 74 has six minor amendments, a couple more significant than others,to the Crown Lands Act - to say to the House and to all members present that we will be introducing a full new Crown~ Act in 1984,either at the Spring session or at the Fall session,in which case these amendments being discussed and debated today, and other amendments between now and then,will be incorporated in one major Act which will then be the new Crown Lands Actfor the Province of Newfoundland and it certainly has been a major undertaking for my department officials and the Department of Justice.

There are many, many acts which relate to Crown Lands in the Province,and certainly to incorporate all of those acts into one major bill is something which is very difficult to do but something which we hope to have accomplished by the end of 1984.I would also like to say, 9 tr'75

December 21,1983 Tape No. 4227 ah-2 MR.POWER: Hr. Speaker, in introducing these amendments to _the Act that the Crown Lands in this Province has been modernized as much as is possible and has been made as efficient as possible to · react to the needs of the people in this Province.

Certainly the improvements that we have made with the administration of Crown land in this Province over the last , I guess, eight or ten years have been very significant,to the point now where most persons in many parts of rural Newfoundland can find areas in which they can either build remote cabins, a new policy that we introduced last year. MR. SIMMS: That has been in the last few years. MR.POWER: Certainly, in particular the improvements that have been made,as the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.Sirnrns) notes, the improvements that have been made since 1979. But certainly , Mr.

Speaker, the new policies we have relating to remote cabins,which is an option that now persons have in this Province who did not have that option four years ago. The fact that cabin lots are in very high demand in most parts of the Province and are also - SOME HON .MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR.POWER: Some of my colleagues do not want me to explain this Crown Land Act,but certainly there are some major things that we are doing in Crown Lands, Mr. Speaker, and we wish to take this opportunit~ as close as it is to the Christmas Seasonhto explain the wonderful things we are doing in Crown Lands. MR.

YOUNG: And Christmas trees. 9476

December 21,1983 Tape No. 4227 ah -3 MR . POWER: We also have Christmas trees, not the flaky ~nes . Mr . Speaker, we also want to say in introducing these amendments to the Crown Lands Act . that all of the other things we have made available to the residents of Ne \vfoundland, from remote cabins to residential occupancies,where you can get land to build a home, land for businesses, in this case here these amendments that we are making , some are not so major, one is simply just a definition of what Crown land is. 9477

December 21, 1983, Tape 4228, Page 1 -- apb MR. POWER: another amendment which we are moving which is very important,is the fact that some­ times in our desire to improve the efficiency rating of applications received by Crown Lands Division, one of the major _ obstacles we have had to overcome is the fact that there was no time limit in which persons had to send back leases that were sent out by the Crown. The new amendment says that within ninety days a lease must be returned to the Crown signed and witnessed 1 otherwise, that application will be considered to have been cancelled.

That in itself will improve the efficiency rating of many applications which are of long standing or outstanding in Crown tands. The other ones, Mr. Speaker, are simply to designate all of the land that is returned to the Crown, such as the Reid railway lands, or such as Newfoundland Colonization and mining lands which are now being discussed. All of that land will be deemed Crown land and will be dealt with by my department under the Crown Land Act. One other major one we are doing, Mr.

Speaker, is to make adverse possession, I guess squatters' rights in many persons' terminology, make that land-if the occupancy has been twenty years immediately prior to J~nuary of 1977, then certainly that land will be deemed to be, I guess, removed from the Crown lands through adverse possession. We have also put in a small amendment to make sure that persons who have occupied Crown land illegally between 1957 and 1977 are punishable by law because they have committed an offence.

There is now a sort of a loophole there 1 and unless we can prove that occupancy took place before 1957, or after 1977, it is somewhat difficult to prove our case, even though people have adversely occupied Crown land. Q_:. 7 Q ...,. ·r 1 u

December 21, 1983, Tape 4228, Page 2 -- apb MR. POWER : Those, Mr. Speaker, are the major amendments that we are trying to do. Again, in summation, just let me say that the major one is certainly to make sure that title documents are returned to the Crown within ninety day, otherwise, that application will be deemed to have been cancelled. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words on this particular bill.

I am sure the minister realizes - if he did not he would not have brought in this bill - that the Crown Land Act needs to be refined. However, I wish to mention a couple of incidents in passing. The minister said that a guy can be deemed to be on Crown land illegally if he has no documents to prove his claim. I believe the minister said a mouthful in those few remarks. I am just wondering if the minister or his officicals, his staff, have used their travel time, or the helicopter travel time to the best advantage.

I am sure that the minister's officials know of many, even today, cabins being built without any permit from the Province. And it is known where those cabins are but not too much is done about it. It is interesting, Mr. Speaker, that I am obliged to speak about a particular cabin on the Torn Luscombe's Brook in the Lake Melville area. This particular cabin was ~uilt some few years ago without, I presume - MR. ROBERTS: The hon . gentleman should be aware the courts have ruled on that. MR. WARREN: I am quite aware, Mr.

Speaker, that the courts did rule on it,in favour of the gentleman who owns that particular cabin. However, it is interesting to know - MR. BAIRD: (Inaudible). MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. the member for Humber West(Mr. Baird) return to his own 9479

December 21, 1983, Tape 4228, Page 3 -- apb MR. WARREN: seat, or go back to Corner Brook somewhere? Mr. Speaker, this particular cabin was built after

an act had been 9 L• B 0

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4229 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: passed in this House saying. no cabins shall be built on particular rivers. MR. WALSH: Not so. MR. WARREN: Maybe it is not. My han. colleague probably knows more about the story than I do, - -- knows more about that particular case than I do. However, Mr. Speaker, it is still a very controversial cabin, on a very controversial river, in a very controversial location in Labrardor. "~ereas people in Labrador cannot - AN HON. MEMBER: A dead issue. MR. WARREN : dead issue, · No, it is a long way from a _Mr.

Speaker/it was just only last year that an individual constituent of mine in Rigolet had been told that he must get rid of his cabin on a particular river because he never had the regular deed, and still and all it was handed down by his father, and his father's father and so on. I think if the minister wants to bring in this bill the minister should make sure that all citizens of the Province are treated equally.

At the same time,I would like to ask the minister in ~losing, what happens to a p~rticular piece of land, for example, that the han. minister could have been living on ten or fifteen or twenty years ago but all of a sudden decided that he did not have any further use for it and another individual attempts to get this piece of land and is refused not necessarily by the government, but is refused by the han. gentleman who previously owned it fifteen years ago .?

He does not want it any lonqer, he does not need it any longer, he could probably be gone to the Mainland, gone out of the Province · altogether, it has not been kept up, just left to 94B1

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4229 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: deteriorate and everything else, can an individual apply for this piece of land without having to pay compensation to the person who was living on it probably fifteen or twenty or thirty years ago although he never had any title to it? I would like for the minister to answer that one in closing. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to ask the minister another question concerning Crown land. Did the minister anticipate any problems with the regular sawrnillers in the Province and with Abitibi Price and Bowaters owning such a large piece of land?

Apparently, at the present time they are allowed to cut pulpwood but they have to leave other trees which ~ s causing a lot of confusion, and it is causing the sawrnillers sane concern because the \ . ~ . . . . bread and butter comes from not only just the pulpwood but the other logs as well. I understand a Mr. Woodridge or l'!oolridcre is do ina an encruiry for the minister's department, are planning chan~es to the act that will give the sawmill operators and other small independents the opportunity of getting more value from the Crown lands that are presently occupied by the two large paper companies?

With those few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that my han. colleague for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) might have a few words to say. ' 9482

December 21, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Aylwa rd) : of Belle Isle. Tape No. 4230 SD - 1 The han. member for the Strait MR. ROBERTS: I shall be brief, but who am I to pass up an invitation from my colleague? I will say that all of us in the House should adopt a self-denying ordinance. I understand that a certain cataclysmic and very welcome event will happen at about 5:30, so all of us should g0vern ourselves accordingly. And if only the han. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) can contain himself it will be okay. Mr. Speaker, I do not want to get into the Tom Luscombe's Brook situation.

I obviously have to declare an interest for the purpose of the act because I acted on it. I would simply say to my friend from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) that the matter came before the courts of this land and was disposed of and as far as I know no appeal - well not as far as I know, I would know if an appeal was taken - they had a good lawyer and the witnesses came and gave evidence truthfully and the judge ruled on that, and an unanimous decision of the Supreme Court of Canada in a case called Sault Ste Marie helped immeasurably as well. MR. YOUNG: And it helped your fee, too. MR. ROBERTS: My fee, Mr.

Speaker, was exactly what I was worth in the matter, which is a great deal more than the han. member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young} would have commanded in similar circumstances. I know .he is not getting paid what he is worth but there is a minimum wage law in this province and he can shelter behind it. get into the Tom - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to Oh, oh. Order, please~ - Luscombe's Brook situation except I should say to my han. friend that it ;was not a matter of a breach of the act, in that there is no act that says that 94B3

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4230 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: you shall not build within a quarter of a mile, I understand it was a breach of a policy and the charge was laid against one of the sections of the Corwn Lands Act, that the gentleman involved had allegedly occupied Crown lands unlawfully. The judge, Judge Cane, ruled, having heard the matter,~hat the Crow~. had not made out its case and there the matter lapsed and the Crown chose not to appeal. I want to raise a very different matter with the hon. gentleman from Ferryland, the minister (Mr.

Power), and I will be very brief, but it is a situation we have around this Province with Crown land and other land and it is a broader problem than simply Crown land. It applies where the ownership of land is contested for one of two reasons.- contested or hard to ascertain- it could apply in a case,as is often the case, where the people who own land have gone away to the Boston States or to somewhere else and they have not tidied up the paper work here and years later when somebody comes to try to acquire the land it is impossible or extremely difficult, expensive and difficult to establish the title.

That applies often in the case where land is allegedly Crown land,because the Crown adopts the procedure that if somebody makes a claim against a piece of land or asserts a claim in respect to a piece of land, the Crown will no longer deal with it, will not issue title, it simply says, 'Alright,straighten it out among yourselves ladies and gentlemen', and that is the end of the Crown's role. Now, Mr. Speaker, I could go on at great length but I think the minister has grasped the point. What I simply ask him is can he indicate whether this matter is getting any attention?

My own solution in a very simplistic way, and you would have to implement it completely, but simplistically we ought to provide where land has been abandoned,and abandoned would have to be defined, where land has been abandoned we 9434

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4230 SD - 3 MR. ROBERTS: should by legislation provide that it reverts to the Crown on the general assumption that if any land in this Province is not owned by an individual, body corporate 1 or by a group of people in some form then it should go back to the Crown. But all over rural Newfoundland in particular there are areas where people have claims to land and it causes them extremely great difficulty and great expense to establish who owns that land.

I have no doubt it is true down in the Ferryland district where there is hardly a family, I guess, that does not have a relative in the Boston states or in Halifax or Toronto or Edmonton or wh.erever. Often ;:.-when these people die and then you get great-nephews or great- nieces or grandchildren trying to establish title it becomes very difficult, very, very expensive. The quieting of title legislation does not address the issue,because the quieting of title must deal with interests that are there.

And you k~ow the interests are there, it is just you cannot establish who owns them or often cannot establish it sufficiently for the purpose of resolving it. So I would simply say to the minister that, you know, there is a problem. If he is not addressing it, in my view he should.

And I think in a very broad st ·atement, that obviously would require qualification if we were going into it in detail, the obvious answer is where land has been abandoned,say for twenty years,that it revert to the Crown and ;n#e Crown may then issue title against it and we can, if need be, set up an insurance scheme to deal with that situation. That is happening, I think, in respect to forest lands.

I noticed the other day in the papers mineral interests are now being escheated- that is e-s-c-h-e-a-t-e-d - back to the Crown where, you know, grants were made fifty or one hundred years ago and nothing has happened on them in that period. That is the principle, I think, we should extend 9485

December 21, 1983 Tape No . 4230 SD - 4 MR . ROBERTS: to the ownership of all land in this Province . We should be able to establish who owns the land so that it can be dealt with and if nobody else owns it, the n I think the principle in our law is very clear, it sh ould be the Crown. But, Mr. Speaker, short of that, you know, the rest of the bill I will ... 8486

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4231 MJ - 1 MR. ROBERTS : not go into, I will simply say that these are matters that should be debated at greater length than we are going to be able to debate them~ I do not fault the minister in the least but, Mr. Speaker, the Cro"m Lands Division,or the Crown Lands issues are very serious ones that affect a lot of people in this Province. I think that under the minister's guidance the administration of Crown Lands has improved immensely. whether he gets the credit or whether it goes to his colleagues I know not, I will give him the credit.

I can also say as member that dealing with him and with his officials is a pleasure in that he will respond; he is not always able to satisfy,of course, but he responds. And let me say a word of kudos to Mr. David Earles, I believe the gentleman's name is, in Crown Lands, an Inquiries Officer. He is a great help to members and I know to other individuals as well. So it is :not inappropriate that we should say that and ask the minister to pass that through. MR. YOUNG: Say something good about me. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would say something good about the gentleman from Harbour Grace (Mr.

Young) and in the spirit of Christmas I would. I will say simply that the gentleman from Harbour Grace by coming to this House from Harbour Grace has improved the intellectual climate of both communities. Now he can think about that and he can sleep on it. But by leaving Upper Island Cove he did the people of Upper Island Cove a tremendous favour,and by coming here to sit among us he has done us an equally great favour-And in the true spirit of Christian charity at Christmas, my from Humber 9487

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4231 MJ - 2 MR. ROBERTS : ~<Jest (Mr. Baird), I would say, simply deserves the friendship of the gentleman from Harbour Grace (Mr. Young), they are peas in the pod, they are fellow cavaliers. And rny friend from Humber West has added considerably to the intellectual stature of Corner Brook by leaving it and to St. John's by coming here. Hr.

Speaker, the two points there very briefly, the question of land o~mership which has to be addressed,and I regret that we are not going to have the time to debate this bill in the kind of detail we should because there are some important points in it, but I know my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) wishes to say a word and we will gladly hear him. I will say that there are matters in here that are worthy of attention by the House and I would hope we ,,;ill get an opportunity to debate them at a later time, if not in this Session, obviously in another Session. There are important matters here, Sir. HR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker. MR~ SPEJ\.KER (Aylward) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to echo what the member for the Strait of Belle ~sle (Mr. Roberts) said in connection with the time we have to debate this bill, I regret that very much myself. There are a couple of questions that I would like to put to the hon. gentleman and I will be as brief as I can. First of all, could the hon. gentleman tell the House if the procedures for processing Crown lands a~~lications has speeded up any in the hon. gentleman's department,or is it still in the mess that it was always in?

T.he hon. gentleman could give us an updating, a report on that. 848B

December 21, 1983 Tape No . 4231 MJ- 3 MR . NEARY : The other matter I want to raise with the bon . gentleman - and I do not wish to open up a can of \oJo:::.-rns at this particular point in time, but it is only a matter of curiosity on my part - I was doing some research the other day on the Bowater timber rights in th:iis Province and I carne across of legislatio n that indicated to me at least, as a layman, and I have not asked for legal advice on this matter yet, that the timber rights that were granted to Bo,.,ater would only remain in full force if Bowater maintained full production at their paper mill in Corner Brook. Now , I would like to ask the bon. gentleman if that is the right

interpretation that I am placing on that particular act?And I am ~orry I do not have it here with me, I left it down in my office today . But I would like to find out from the hon . gentleman . at this point in time, more or less just to satisfv my own curio sity, if Bowater does not maintain full production in Corner Brook,is it possible that the Cro'm could move to take ba ck the Bowater timber rights in this Province? 8489

December 21,1983 Tape No. 4232 ah-1 MR. NEARY: Is that the correct

interpretation of the provision of their agreement, Mr. Speaker? MR.SPEAKER (Ayl ward ): If the han. minister now speaks he will close the debate. The han. Minister of Forest MR.POWER: Resources and Lands. Mr. Speaker, as mentioned by the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts), certainly today we do not have a sufficient amount of time to debate in any great detail the provisions of the Crown Land Act that we are amending today.

I certainly just want to take one moment to thank the member for the Strait of Belle Isle for his kind comments about myself,and very particularly to thank him for his kind comments about David Earles who is in that division specifically to liaise with the of Assemb1y.And I am sure that members of the House an y :inember of the House of Assembly who has had the opportunity to work with David Earles finds him to be extremely competent, capable and co-operative. Just let me try to answer briefly, Mr. Speaker, some of the queries brought up by the members opposite who spoke.

In the case of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) who mentioned the Bowater Act, I would remind the Leader pf the Opposition-if I could have his attention for a moment,seeing he asked me the question. MR.NEARY: I am listening. MR. POWER: I just want to remind the Leader of the Opposition that in looking at the timber rights relating to the Bowater Act be careful,that there are two Bowater Acts, one of 1938 which · he may be reading, and there is another one of 1956 or 1957 which updates and 9490

December 21,1983 Tape No. 4232 ah-2 MR.POWER: changes some of the provisions of the Bowater Act. We also as a government have been working,obviously,on all aspects of the Bowater situation and the lawyers in the Department of Justice and others are advising government on that matter as it relates to timber rights. But there are certain parts of the act which seem to say it would be very easy to get the timber rights back to the Province. There are other provisions in other parts of that Bowater Act which do not make that so easy to accomolish. MR.NEARY: legal :beagles.

MR.POWER: It is being looked at by the Yes, by the Department of Justice and by other lawyers who had some interest in the Bowate~: op~ration. As it relates to the processing of Crown land applications,let me tell the Leader of the Opposition that I think we have done everthing administratively possibl'e ·to impr?ve the processing of Crown lands.

What we now need in the Crown La~ds Division would be about $12 or $15 million over a ten or twelve year period to com,_outerize and modernize that whole system of Crown land registrations, and a Registry of Deeds to have some of the same things done with it, Certainly the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) 'and the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) talked about land ownership and having land revert back to the Crown. There are some merits to that,but there are also some very significant problems to it.

It is not always easy to say simply because land is not occupied have it revert to the Crown. If land has been granted,then obviously it causes some problems. But certainly compulsory land registration transactions would be one way to solve some of the problems of land 9491"

December 21,1983 Tape No. 4232 ah-3 MR.POWER: ownership, ·which we do not now have in this Province. But as I mentioned in my opening statement,we will be bringing in a full Crown Lands Act to incorporate these amendments and some of the suggestions that have been made by many other persons in this House of Assembly and around the Province,to improve the administration, control and disbursement of Crown land to the residents of the Province • And certainly all these things being said, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that next year,either in the Spring session or in the Fall session,we will have a fair and adequate amount of time to discuss many "of the provisions of the Crown limrls Act. With that , Mr. Speaker, I would now like to move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Crown Lands Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently,by leaye. (Bill No. 74) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Award Of Interest On Judgements Of The Courts Of The Province," (Bill No. 91) MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. Minister of Justice.

MR.OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, this legislation will establish the payment of pre-judgement interest in the Province •. Now pre-judgement interest is defined in

Section 3, Subsection (1), and I think it is defined there as clearly as anybody can,'Where a person obtains a judgement," that is from a court and this would apply to any of the courts, the provincial 9492

December 21,1983 Tape No. 4232 ah-4 MR.OTTENHEIMER : court, the District Court, the Supreme Court, so, "Where a person obtains a judgement for the payment of money," or a judgement of money is owing, "the court will award interest on the judgement ." In other words, let us say there was a cause of act:.i .t"l!" t·Thich occured in January of a certain year and there was a decision ,let us say,the following December . As the situation is now, the aggrieved person although successful in the judgement, and 9493

December 21, 1983, Tape 4233, Page 1 -- apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: is found to be owed $10,000 by the person,does not receive any interest on that money for that whole period of time. This legislation when enacted will assure that interest is paid, calculated from the day the cause of action took place, the day that the person was injured in an automobile accident, or the day that a bucket fell from a roof due to somebody's negligence and injured that person, or whatever. So it will provide that the interest is paid, and the interest starts running from the day of the cause of action.

Not the day that the matter necessarily started before the courts, or where the aggrieved person started the action, but from the time when the cause of action originated and, of course, ending on the day that judgement is given. So that is what pre-judgement interest is. In fact, most of the provinces do have pre-judg~t interest, Ontario, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Manitoba and Saskatchewan. It is brought in with the consent, approval, endorsement, if you wishi of the legal profession. Not that that is a prime concern, but it is a matter of interest to bon. members.

But, of course, this will be of benefit to the general citizen, or the general consumer, the aggrieved party, because he will not then, or she will not then be deprived of interest. Because, after all, a certain amount is owing. It takes nine months, or ten months, or however long it takes to get the court judgement, it really does not appear to be fair at all that that person should be deprived of interest on that money which, if they had from the day the cause of action arose, they would be able to put to use. Nor does it appear fair at all that the person who caused the injury should not have to pay interest.

Of course, I think it will lead to, and should ·lead to, a more e1pedi tions settlement for many claims 1 because there will not then be an incentive, 9494

Decembe .r 21, 1983, Tape 4233, Page 2 -- apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: let us say, to have a matter postponed and postponed over a period of time if the assessment is that money may well have to be paid and it is known that interest will start running from the date of the cause of action. Right? MR. NEARY: You have us convinced. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Okay. So there is very little more really to say about it. I would point out that there is an area of judicial discretion, and I think that is necessary in all of these matters.

And this is based on uniform legislation, as well. 'The court may', the act points out, 'with respect to the whole or any part of the amount for which judgement is given,where the court feels it is just having regard to the circumstances, 'may refuse to award interest or award interest at a rate i or for a period or both', a rate and a period different from that which would normally be pursuant. So that is essentially it. The post-judgement interest, of course, we have always had, but that will no~ be at the same amount, at the same rate as prejudgement interest.

Since we are having pre-judgement interest it is certainly appears totally logical, indeed, it would be most illogical not to have both rates of interest the same and to have a uniformity there. So it provides for that as well. And it will be the government's intention to proclaim legislation as early as possible in the New Year. I think that is essentially it. So it will bring in for the first time in Newfoundland pre-judgement interest, which is operative in the vast majority of provinces. MR. SPEAKER(Aylw ard) : The han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROB ERTS: - Mr.

Speaker, we on this side certainly have no difficulty at all with this legislation. It is not radical, or it is not a revolutionary piece at all. As the min~ster has indicated, this has been in effect, or a 9495

Decembe r 21, 1983, Tape 4233, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: comparable piece of legislation hiis been in effect in a number of other provinces. I have one or two specific comments which grow out of the provisions of the bill. The post-judgement interest section, I would suggest the minister should consult with the law officers. That, I believe, is established by the Judicature Act. I think it is a

section of the Judicature Act which establishes the rate of interest. I have not taken the opportupity to research it, but I do not know if this act will be hel.d 94 96

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4234 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: to have amended the Judicature Act and we may apparently have a conflict between these two provisions.

Section 5 of this bill provides for interest at a certain rate in respect of matters in which judgement has been rendered by the court, the Judicature Act provides a different rate of interest. There may possibly be a conflict between these two, and the minister may want to address that. Again one of the problems with the rush, rush, rush of' legislation is that it may not be possible to do anything about it today, we may end up having to pass a bill knowing that it will create legal problems down the road.

And I think that would be unfortunate1but I draw it to the minister's attention so he can take whatever action is appropriate. Secondly, I do want to ask if the minister could give us some indication of how the interest rates are going to be determined. I know the mechanism but I want to know the standards. There is a very broad grant of power in here, 'The Lieutenant-Governor in Council shall determine and publish in the Gazette interest rates in accordance with the regulations'.

The regulations simply say the Cabinet may determine the method and the rate of interest, and I want to know how ~~hey propose to do this. I would have felt a great deal happier if this House had been asked to etablish the method, if'· the minister had come before us with a methodology, but since that is not the case perhaps, the minister could indicate how he proposes to go about it. Is it going to be pegged, say,to the Ba~~ of Canada prime rate, or to whatever? But there is nothing in this that would govern the interest in any way. In theory the Cabinet could provide 100 per cent a day.

You know that is absurd, that is :9497

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4234 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: ridiculous, but I would point out legally there is nothing in this bill which would stop it, in fact to the contrary, this bill would allow it. That is a very broad grant of power. I am not sure why the minister or the Cabinet need so much power. I would have thought we could spell out a method in the bill and ask the House to approve it. In any event,the Cabinet, for whatever reason, have chosen not to do this. It is like much of our legislation, Mr. Speaker. I am becoming increasingly concerned with the appallingly badly drafted legislation.

And when I say badly drafted I do not mean technically. Technically I think our legislation has improved immensely in the last few years, very much better wording, but appallingly badly drafted in the sense that it has not been thought throug~ that the House is being asked to deal - and in many cases the Cabinet is being asked to deal - with substantive points embodied in legislation that have not been thought through, have not ·t· been considered. I do not know .whether this is such a point or not, I would say if the minister has not addressed it then it is such ·a point.

If on the contrary the minister has addressed it1 perhaps he could indicate to us why this particular method has been chosen. I am obvioulsy prepared to suspend any judgement,with or without interest, until I have heard w~at the minister has to say on the matter. But, Mr. Speaker, generally speaking this is a welcome ~ieee of legislation in that it allows the court to grant interest, in . fact,it provides 'the court shall grant interes~ but then allows, as the minister told us, a discretion in the court,and I have no doubt that the court will exercise that discretion wherever it feels it appropriate to do so.

And I have no doubt,as well,that we will develop in this Province a body of jurisprudence "9498 . '

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4234 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: that incorporates and reflects the principles which determine when the court shall not award interest or shall award a lesser amount of interest. 91~ 9 9

December 21, 1983 Tape 4235 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: I think that has been well developed outside Newfoundland and I have no doubt we shall import it here. Other than that, Mr. Speaker, it is a fairly significant bill. It will quite conceivably add very largely to the amounts that people will receive in settlement or in judgements.

It, interestingly enough, does not, nor could it, I guess, provide for interest on settlements, matters that are negotiated outside of court but I suppose that the Bar will accommodate itself to that and the pre-judgement interest will be reflected. 'Judgement includes order of a court, but this act only applies, obviously, to judgement~.

I have no doubt that the practitioners at the Bar will become aware of this and will incorporate it in their settlements and will say, 'Alright, we are entitled to interest, if you will not give it to us we will go to a court and we will see where we get. ' It should certainly speed up the process of resolving litigation primarily, this will deal primarily or affect primarily with motor vehicle claims, which are a large part of the litigation dealt with by the courts of this Province, but it should be noted it applies to everything; in fact, it also changes the law of Newfoundland in contract, where in contract matters there has been no interest before judgement and it is quite conceivable now that this will be applied to the courts as well.

Finally, I am glad that it does not apply to a cause of action that arises before the coming into force of this act or to a judgement payable before the coming into force of this act. I think that is appropriate too. Whether we welcome a change or not, we should be aware of the fact that people have hitherto conducted their affairs under a given set of rules and 9500

December 21, 1983 Tape 4235 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: if we are changing the rules now, it is not, in my way of thinking, to any degree fair to apply these changes retroactively and I congratulate the minister on not having done so. I think he has done it the right way in this bill. But, Mr. Speaker, for my part, and I am sure I speak for my colleagues, we are prepared to support this legislation and to see it enacted into law. MR. SPEAKER (A ylward): The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to rise very briefly to comment on a few statements made by the han. member opposite, because he has made those statements in the past, that is referring to the drafting of the bills that come before this House. The han. member, I think, made the statement yesterday over a bill that came before the House, but that was not the only occasion, he has made it a number of times. The han. member, of course, has every right to express such an opinion. It is obviously a personal opinion. Because he says it that does not say it is true.

When he says the bills are very pooriy drafted, what he means is that 'in my view, in my narrow view, they are poorly drafted,' but that does not say that they are. The reason why I rise to my feet is that I think the hon. member, in making such statements, should really put before the House some evidence. For instance, if the han. member could show that in Committee in this House, we bring in more amend­ ments to bills brought in than,say ,the House in New Brunswick or the House in Ottawa or the House in Westminster or whatever, I think that would add substance to the statement 9501

December 21, 1983 Tape 4235 EC - 3 DR. COLLINS: he made and even give it some credibility, but just to make a statement like that and to make it repeatedly without evidence, I do not think it adds in any way to the stature of the debate in this House. I would hope that the hon. member ~ill take .the remarks I make now in good faith and when he wants to bring in things like that to show us substantively the evidence for the statements he makes.

Because, otherwise, I think it really just dOes lead to a certain amount of confusion, certainly it d.oes tend to contuse the media, because one often sees statements from the hon. member, and not only the hon. member, other members too, which are statements that seem to come through as facts in the media. 9502

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4236 MJ- 1 DR. COLLINS: Well,anyone with any inkling at all about the subject knows that they are unsubstantiated, no underpinning to them and are quit~ often very wide of the mark. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Thank you, very much. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the t~r. Speaker, I did not intend to speak at all on this bill, my colleague,the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (~r. Roberts) outlined our position on this bill,but after listening to the rubbish and the garbage that just came from the lips of the Hinister of Finance (Dr. Collins), Mr.

Speaker, I just had to get up and make a few observations with regard to debate that .-has taken place on this bill. The debate was of a high level,by the way, before the Minister of Finance entered into it.I thought the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) I did a pretty fair job of introducing the bill,and my colleague,the member for the Strait of Belle Isle,did an excellent job of debating the bill and making a few valid points. AN RON. MEMBER: I found it boring. MR. NEARY: Well,it may have been boring to the han. gentleman but it certainly was not boring to the members of this House. The only confusion, Mr.

Speaker, on this matter is in the mind of the Minister of Finance. Yesterday my han. colleague scored some verv, very valid points on the retail sales tax changes, ~he changes that were being made involving the directors of these companies. Now,the hon. gentleman may have lost that debate and he ma y 9503

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4236 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: resent my colleague for picking the loopholes in the bill and being quoted in the press. The hen. gentleman seems to be very concerned and very sensitive about criticism in the press. I believe that is why he spoke, Mr. Speaker. He resents it, he feels hurt about it. The hen. gentleman is so pious and self­ righteous that he thinks that everything he says is Gospel. Mr.

Speaker, he should be the last man on the government side of the House to get up and criticize anybody.With the kind of a budget, the kind of estimates, the unrealistic estimating by the hen. gentleman, he should be the last to criticize anybody. My hen. colleague is so right, Hr. Speaker, that even a layman like myself- I am not a professional man, but even I could see what the han. gentleman was driving at. ~~d sometimes when I read the legislation I am at a loss myself to figure out what imolications this may have on another piece of legislation, on another law of this Province.

And my han. coll~ague was not criticizing the competence of the legal draftsme~. That was not the point at all. As a matter of ·fact, he went to great pains to explain that I believe, that he was n:ot criticizing the legislative draftspeople. That was not his point at all. The., point he made was that they have not thought the thing through far enough, that was his point. lrr. Speaker, therefore in view of the fact that the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) felt compelled to leap into the debate and throw chaos and confusion into the debate,I believe the matter deserves to be straightened out and I think that every member, especially the legal minds in this House,should have an opportunity to express their views on this bill. So, I would like to move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) that this 9504

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4236 MJ - 3 MR. NE.I),_~Y: bill be read this day tNenty- four hours hence . MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The motion made by the Leader of the Opposition (~tr. Neary) appears to be in order. MR . NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . So, Mr . Speaker, that will give my colleague an opportunity to comment on the ridiculous and outlandish statements made by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), who can only think about deficit financing in thxs Province anC. whacking taxes on people. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me say this,that I doubt very much if. there is a member on either side of this HousP., outside of the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts ), 9505

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4237 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: who is more competent, who knows more about how the system works, who can evaluate legislation better than the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). I commend him for it, Mr. Speaker, I only wish that I had the hon. gentleman's talent when it comes to getting to the heart of the legislation. And every hon. gentleman there opposite recognizes that fact, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think every member on both sides of the House recognize the fact that my hon. colleague is probably the best in the Province for assessing legislation.

And for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins l - how brazen can you get? - a gentleman who has made such an incredible mess of the finances of this Province, how dare he get up and criticize the member for the Strait of Belle Isle? MR. BARRETT: He deserved it. MR. NEARY: He did not deserve it. He certainly did not deserve it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: Well,my hon. colleague will have a chance now to speak in this debate again • • MR. BARRETT: You were not in the House when we said it yesterday. MR.

NEARY: I was here yesterday 1 and I was here today,and I heard what my colleague said and I agree with him 100 per cent. The question that arises, Mr. Speaker, is whether the legislation, the bill that is before the House, had been thought through sufficiently enough before it was brought into the House and made into law. That is the question. So,therefo~e, Mr. Speaker, I condemn the Minister of Finance. And I hope, Mr. Speaker, in the interest of expediting the business of this House,that the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) would get the Minister of Finance to restrain himself so that he will not get up as he just did 9506

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4237 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: and make a complete fool of himself and heap abuse and criticism on the only man in this Province who has the knowledge and the insight and is competent enough to assess the legislation that comes before this House. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell}: The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I do want to say a few words and I want to thank the gentlem~n from LaPoile (Mr. Neary}. The encomium I take in the spirit in which they are intended and I am grateful, but I do want to deal with the Minister of Finance (~r.

Collins). It is too bad, Your Honour, because we were planning to get out of the House at 5:30. I do not see how we are going to be able to do it now. I have half an hour on this bill, on this motion, and then there is committee, so I guess we will be back here again tomorrow and all because the Minister of Finance could not contain his bile. The real reason he got up, I suggest, at least in my view the reason he got up was that he was taken apart yesterday, not that he was made a fool of, he got up and spoke and confirmed what many of us suspected, which is that he did not know what he was talking about. MR.

CARTER: You had that planned from the beginning. MR. ROBERTS: I had it planned? Yes, I say to my han. friend from St. John's North (.Mr. Carter), I prompted the gentleman from St. John's South CDr. Collins}. He is well known for dancing to my tune. All I have to do is say something and he is like a puppet, he jumps up and speaks. I have a right to speak for half an hour in support of this motion. I do not know if I will need half an hour or not,but I intend to say what I wish to say subject to the rules of the House.

And that is the way it should be and that is what I shall do. --·-·· --- -- • . ..,.r • - - - - •••• Oc.n7 Ch.JU .

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4237 SD - 3 MR . ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, the issue is whether this bill should be deferred £or twenty - four hours or no. That is the motion before the House. It is a motion which, as Your Honour has agreed, is in ord~r 9508

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4238 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: and it is a motion which is being moved for two reasons; one is to protest the unseemly haste, and the second is to allow me to demonstrate the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) does not know what he is talking about when it comes to legal matters . He has already demonstrated amply to this House and to the Province that he does not know what he is talking about when it comes to financial matters.

Any man who cannot even estimate to the nearest $20 million what the sales tax yield is going to be, if he did not have the brazen gall of the Minister of Finance, if he did not have the side and the thick hide of the Finance Minister would have slunk his head, slunk around and tried as best he could to sort of wait for a number of months in the hope that people would forget it. But the Minister of Finance goes down in our history in Newfoundland as a man who cannot even estimate to th e nearest $20 million what the sales tax will yield.

Forget that he cannot read what Ottawa sends him, forget that he cannot understand it all, that is fair enough, we accept that 1 but he cannot even, to the nearest $20 million, ,. estimate what the sales tax will bring. MR. CARTER: A vile personal attack. MR. ROBERTS: No, Mr . Speaker, it is a strong and a well-based attack upon the minister's official duties and his carrying out of those duties. If I wanted to be personal I would have to talk about my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter), and I would not talk about my friend from St.

John's North because I am filled with the milk of human kindness and also because of the great kindness he has done my wife in sending her some of the excellent herbs which he grows. MR. CARTER: Malevolent. 9509

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4238 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: No, the herbs may be malevolent, I trust they will not, because I understand they will shortly be presented on the table, a sweet basil and marjoram as I understand them, and my friend is probably the only person in Newfoundland who grows these herbs, and one of the very few people in Newfoundland who knows anything about their use. So I want to thank him. I would say to him that my wife will be in touch with him to thank him. It was very kind of him and I do appreciate it. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the question before the House is whether we should suspend this bill for twenty-four hours or no. I think we should to enable the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) to have a look at one or two of the points which I raised and he can then determine whether,for example,the Judicature Act is in conflict with the provisions of

Section 5. I think they are in conflict with each other,and if that is so that may very well cause problems6 Because when this House enacts legislation it must bear in mind the fact that all of the legislation stands as a seamless web and that one act:must be considered in accordance with another. And, Mr. Speaker, this House should be cognizant of that. And the minister brings in a bill, and I was quite prepared to let it stand and let the Minister of Justice look into it until the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) chose to . insert himself into the debate and expose his ignorance, and it is ignorance, Sir, because he knows not what he talks about. Mr. Speaker, the other point which I made was that much legislation corning before this House has not been fully considered by the Cabinet. Only the minister's twisted, tortured mind could possbily construe that as an attack upon the draftsman. Maybe the minister does not understand this, maybe that is the answer. Maybe he has not got a twisted mind after all. Maybe he just does not understand. Let me take a second and tell him. 9510 ' '.

December 21, 1983 Tape 4239 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: The draftsman's job is to translate into words the policy and the principles that the government set down, and the draftsman's job is also to suggest to the instructing person, usually a minister, often a deputy minister acting in the name of the minister, what might be needed to make the act complete and whole. That is the draftsman's job. The minister may not have heard, and if he heard he may not have understood, that the drafting in this Province has improved immeasurably in the last four or five years.

Many of the draftspeople are Clerks at the table, and that causes a concern to a number of us, Your Honour, because I am not sure that Your Honour's assistants at the table ought to be on the government's payroll, I think they ought to be on the House's payroll and they ought to hold office only under Your Honour, . and if Your Honour then wants to ~ro­ vide them for other duties then that is fine. But, be that as it may, we have had a group of professionally trained draftsmen.

We have always had lawyers doing the drafting, but we have had in the last few years a group who have been trained professionally in the somewhat arcane art of drafting and the legislation has shown an immense improvement. My criticisms of the badly drafted legis- lation - as I said yesterday, as I said earlier today and as I say again; even the minister may get it the third time I say it - my criticisms are centered about the fact that the ministry do not - even, I would venture to say, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) has not read any single bill that comes before this House, except possibly those which he himself has 9511

December 21, 1983 Tape 4239 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: sponsored. I would venture to say he has not read a piece of legislation. I do not know whether the Cabinet, as they presently constitute themselves, have a legislation committee. I do not know about that, it does not matter to me one way or the other. If they do have one, the minister may even be on the committee. But I will say without any fear of successful contradiction that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has not read a single piece of legislation except possibly those in which, as minister, he has a direct interest. MR.

NEARY: If he did, he #ould not understand them. MR. ROBERTS: My friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has said exactly what I was going to say, the Minister of Finance, even if he has read them, is unable to understand them. He is certainly unable to defend them here in the House. Yesterday in the House, he was saying that the reason he was against some of my comments was that they were too plausible. MR. NEARY: And you might get a bit of coverage from the press. MR. ROBERTS: Yes. So then, instead, he gets up and he uses such dignified words as 'rubbish' and so forth.

They reveal the clarity of his analysis and the character of his mental processes. So now we have a situation where we have a bill before us which provides in

section 6 that"rhe Lieutenant-Governor in Council shall determine and publish in the Gazette interest rates in accordance with the regulations.' Now, that is a pretty broad grant of power, Mr. Speaker. Let me read

section 8 - we are not in any hurry, we have lots of time - 9512

December 21, 1983 Tape 4239 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: "The Lieutenant-Governor in Council", it says in

section 8, "may make regulations

a) respecting the method of determining and the frequency of publishing interest rates and the periods with respect to which the interest rates are in effect; and

b) prescribing the rate of interest." Now, put those together- and I realize the minister has not read either of them - but putting both of those together, Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the Cabinet, by this legislation, is taking unto itself a power to establish any rate of interest. They could, as I said, bring in a rate of interest of 100 per cent per day in respect of interest. And this also binds the Crown and so it should, but also this could run against the Crown, it could cost the House a great deal of money, cost the people of the Province a great deal of money through the government.

All I said, in all innocence was to ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), who I have no doubt would have given a sensible answer - in that, he is unlike his colleague, the Finance Minister (Dr. Collins), but also the Justice Minister has been known to rise to eloquence, and eloquence, of course, distinguishes 9513

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4240 IB - 1 MR. ROBERTS: him from his colleague in Finance, and to rise to wit and humour, neither of which has ever escaped from the lips of the gentleman from St. John's South (Dr. Collins). These are matters which are foreign to him, as foreign to him as the true interests of most of the people of Newfoundland. He has no conception of either. But, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance takes issue with this. I say it is an issue that ought to be addressed. Should we give the Cabinet this degree of power? MR. CARTER: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, says the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr.

Carter), who is no longer a member of the Cabinet, a move which has greatly improved the Cabinet. As lamentable as the caliber of the Cabinet may be, it has been improved greatly by the absence of the gentleman for St. John's North, a significant improvement. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) might be able to defend this but has not had an opportunity to because the Minister of Finance decided to make a display of himself, to expose himself before the House, which is what he has done. He has exposed himself nakedly, unashamedly, indecently.

He has revealed the 'innermost processes of his mind, and that really is a sorry act, a pitiful act for the Minister of Finance to stand up on this. No doubt when it comes to matters within his professional ken he is well qualified to speak. I do not doubt at all that within the sphere of professional expertise he is a man of some considerable attainment. I do not doubt that at all. It is too bad, I feel, that his professional expertise is not being used by him in this job. Instead he is in a job for which not only has he got no expertise, he has demonstrated a substantial degree of incompetence. 9514

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4240 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: But the point is that our legislation is appallingly badly drafted, not technically. I said that at second reading; I say it now in this debate on whether or not we should give it a twenty-four hour hoist. Itis appallingly badly drafted because the minister as a member of the Cabinet has not read the legislation and has not considered it at any length. The Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) may well have done so. The Minister of Justice may well be able to defend this.

The Minister of Justice may succeed in persuading us to pass this bill this day, but the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), Si=, has not read this legislation. I say that without any doubt. DR. COLLINS: I did. MR. ROBERTS: No, Sir. If the Minister of Finance has.read it he has read it since it came up in the House. And if he h'is J::"'?.d it, he has not understood it. But the fact remains that the legislation is appallingly badly drafted, that the ministers,and the officials who act in their name and who answer to them 1 do not give adequate instructions. MR. CARTER: Leave staff out of this. MR. ROBERTS: No,Mr.

Speaker. The gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) has never of the Crichel Down case. Maybe I should take five minutes and tell him about Crichel Down which for his benefit is spelled C-r-i-c-h-e-1 D-o-w-n, two words. MR. CARTER: He has the right to reply, does he not? MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman may speak in this debate. I hope he will. The bon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has a right to speak in this debate. I hope he will. And any of my colleagues who wish to speak,or any other members of the House who wish to speak, I hope they will. MR. CARTER: 8515 The staff cannot speak.

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4240 IB - 3 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the only people whom we in this House know are the ministry. They answer. They are supposed to be responsible. In some cases they even are. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) if he understands that realizes that when instructions are given on a finance bill, it does not matter whether they are given by him or whether they are given by somebody acting in his name.

In fact, I would prefer the latter because the odds are considerably higher that the official giving it will understand what is happening as opposed to the minister understanding what is happening. MR. CARTER: Do not insult their staff. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, only the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) could think I am insulting the staff. He never had a staff who could work with him. One of the reasons he was fired from the Cabinet was his officials went to the then Premier (Mr.

Moores) and said, 'Save us from this minister.' You know they had endured much over the years in Education, they had endured a great deal. I will not name all the Ministers of Education, but I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the officials in that Department had endured much over the years, but never had they been so sorely tried as when the gentleman - MR. NEARY: Bingo was his downfall. MR. ROBERTS: Well now, it was not actually bingo, I say to the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), it was the bus regulations. He brought in a series of bus regulations which (

a) were unworkable~ (

b) just about bankrupted the Province, and (

c) got every single school board and parent in the Province united against the government. MR. NEARY: Well, that is how bingo came in. He told them to go out and raise the money through bingo. 9516

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4240 IB-4 MR. ROBERTS: He told them to go out and raise the money by bingo. Well, it could have been by selling savoury. MR. BAIRD: I saw you on television last night. 9517

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4241 MJ - 1 MR. ROBERTS: I say to my han. friend from Humber West (Mr. Baird) I am glad he saw me on television, I did not, but I did have a telephone call from my mother to say I needed my hair cut. The han. gentleman's mother, if the lady still be livin~would never have said that about him. Nobody would say the gentleman from Humber West needs his hair cut. In fact, Hr. Speaker, when my friend from Humber West goes to get his hair cut he is charged full fee . and he once asked, 'lilhv am I charged full fee?

I have only got a little up here . ' And the ans,ver the barber gave, 'That is a searching fee we have to char~e you, Sir, not a cutting fee.' MR. BARID: Only a nether could be so caring. MR. ROBERTS : HR. HORGAN; I am grateful, on behalf of my mother I concur. He was ~n CBC, was he? !·1R. :NEAP..Y : Fellow from Gamba. SOHE HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. ROBERTS: \ :es, they s:'lmve:'l. · The Li tt"le Oh, oh! Order, please! Order,please! I can only deal with one heckler at a time, Sir. The gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan). MR. MORGAN: negative it had to be CBC. MR.

ROB~:.<.TS: It had to be CBC, If it v1as Oh, I see. ~he han. gentleman from Bonavista South does not like the CBC. 1hat is okay 1 they do not like him, but they are just reflecting what many people say. ~~R. MORGAN: Anything positive they will not carry, if it is negative they will carry it. MR. SJ?EAKER: Order,please! MR. ROBERTS: \'l"ell, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if we can really debate that at this stage 1 cut if the 9518

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4241 JI1J - 2 MR. ROBERTS: han. gentleman would care to put down a motion I would be quite happy to say what should be said on it. The Gover~ment House Leader (Mr. Marshall) is looking anxious.I hope he is not going to do the Governor the discourtesy of keeping him waiting because we are not going to be able to finish this Order Paper by 5:30 p.m. today, His colleagu~ the Minister of - HR. BAIRD: month ago. MR. ROBERTS: MR. BAIRD: r.1R. ROBERTS: You should have been here a I should have been and I was. vJe did not hear you talking then. T'1e Hinister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) has singlehandedly succeeded in keeping the House opened for an extra day. Now I can tell the House Leader how to get around it. He can simply move that the rules of the House, 111hich say t'le must rise at 6:00p.m., be altered for this day. By keeping this open ~.,e may get through by 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m. tonight• Bnt the Hinister of Finance has chosen to - MR. BAIRD: You should have been here a month ago. MR. ROBERTS: I was here a month ago, I say to my friend from Humber West (Hr. Baird). ·where t¥as he? !·1ore to the point, t'lhey was he? MR.

NEARY: He was out looking for the unidentified company that is going to buy Bowater. HR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order,please! MR. ROBERTS: V.Tell, there may be. No doubt whatever company is qoing to buv l'lm..iater is unidentified. MR. RA.I RD : I would say it was more authentic than mushroom growing on Bell Island. MR. SPEA..T<ER: Order,please! Order, please! 9519

December 21, 1983 Tape No. 4241 MJ - 3 MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : l1ay I carry, Mr. Speaker? The han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) may continue 1 but I wish he would be a little more relevant to this bill. MR. ROBERTS: You ~onour, with all respect, I am being relevant. This is a motion. !•7e are not speaking on a bill at this stage, we are speaking on a motion. The motion is that this bill be further considered, be read a second time this day twenty-four hours hence, which I guess means tomorrow, and I am giving my reasons why we should have it for tomorrow.

I do not think we are going to be able to deal adequately with this today, We were goirg along quite happily until the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) got up. ·iffi. BARRETT: He dared to criticize vou. MR. ROBERTS : I do not mind the Minister of Finance criticizing me at all. What I do mind - SOt1E HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Oh, oh! Order,please! -Sir, is the Minister of Finance criticizing me in a cowardlv wav when I have spoken in a debate trying to insert himself into it. He is not a man of sufficient gumption.

I took him on in a debate yesterday • He had two chances to speak and needed both of them because he still did not come away on top. But what I do mind is him choosing to insert himself into a debate in which he has no ministerial interest, in which he has no professional interest, in which he has no knowledge, in which he has no competence, in which he has no interest of any sort except the right to speak. I do not quarrel with his right to speak. MR. BARP~TT: Are you suggesting that you know it all? 9520

December 21, 1983 Tape Nco. 424~ MJ - 4 MR. ROBERTS : No, I am not suggesting that to my friend from St. John's West (Mr. Barrett). I have a right to speak, as does he, on any bill, as does the minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : lffi. ROBERTS : Oh, oh! Order,please! Order, please! Px. Speaker, if my friend from St. John's West had done me the courtesy to listen,he would have heard me say that the minister has the right to speak. -What I a.m questioning is not his right to speak, but the cowardly way in which he chose to insert himself into this debate. Thinking that since I had spoken and have no further ri