VOL. 3 PRELTI1INARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE: PERIOD: 3:00 . p.m. - 6:0Q p.m. TUESDAY, JUNE. 9, 1981 NO. 56.

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2279 NM - 1 The House met at 3:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! It is with a great deal of regret that I advise members of this hon. House of the un- timely passing of one of our legislative reporters from the Newfoundland and Labrador Press Gallery Association. I refer to the late Geoff Hunt, who passed away yesterday while in hospital. He was twenty-eight years of age. He was a very serious reporter who certainly had the respect oi his peers and members of this hon. House.

He had been working with newspapers for quite some time, formerly working with The Evening Telegram. He was at one time Newfoundland's correspondent for McLean's Magazine . \'Jhile he attended Memorial University of Newfoundland, he served as Assistant Editor and Editor, Editor-in-Chief actuall~ of the ~, the student newspaper at the university. And more recently he covered the House of Assembly as a freelance reporter for The Daily News until his illness forced him to discontinue around mid May month.

He will be sadly missed by his friends, colleagues, and indeed all of us who knew him, and I know that hon. members would want me to convey our deepest sympathy to his mother and family on their tragic loss. The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, in accordance with your very sympathetic remarks that you have made conveying the sympathy of all of the House,we would certainly like to be associated with it. Mr. Hunt was well known to all of us. I think his untimely death carne as a shock but at the same time, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is a matter of a real memorial to the gentleman that despite the fact that he had an ,., 1 -- 7 0 I I 1

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2279 _ MR. MARSHALL: illness and he had been ill for such a long period of time,he still managed to acquit his duties as ·a memoer of the press gallery and as a reporter right up to almost the last days of his life. NM - 2 To his mother, Mrs. Cynthia Hunt, and to the members of his family, including ,I might ind£cate, Mr. Speaker, his uncle, who is the prese~t Judge of the District Court in Brigus, Rupert Bartlett, and a former member for Trinity South in the House of Assembly, I would certainly wish the government to be joined, and I know members of the .

Opposition, all members of the House, in our expression of sympathy for the untimely death of this very young person, as I say a very untimely death,and at the same time pay tribute to his courage and determination for the way in which he carried on, particularly in the latter months of his life in carrying on in the same normal manner and carrying on the same normal lifestyle. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) ,: The J:.~on. Leader of t.b~ Opposition . MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House we would like to also be identified with the remarks that you have made.

There is no doubt that of all the people who have covered both sides of the House, I do not think I have . ever heard anyone criticize Mr. Hunt as turning out anything o~~er than first class reporting. It is unfortunate maybe some of these things are only said after somebody has 6 1? ~~

June 9,1981 Tape No. 2280 AH-1 MR. STIRLING: passed away,and I too want to join with the government on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House in paying tribute to his spirit and courage because,while it may come as a shock, those of us who had a close connection with him knew that he was carrying on,with this disease,right up until the last minute. And, Mr.Speaker, he still was right to his last days a correspondent for McLeans and I had an interview with him on behalf of McLeans within the last ten days.

So we certainly want to join with you in extending our sympathies and paying tribute to the kind of young man that Mr. Hunt was. MR. SPEAKER(Simmsl: You have heard the motion. Those in favour 'Aye', contrary 'Nay', carried. MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the ~inister of Health (Mr. House) 1 and no doubt since yesterday he has now briefed himself on the situation.

Would he like to inform the House on the situation that he has found now that he checked into the information of the serious situation involving nurses in this Province and in particular the situation that he found at the Janeway Hospital? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I think, first of all, the statements implied in the question yesterday of emergency proportions,! think was alarmist. The situation is similar to what we have every year at about this time and usually there are not very many ways you can overcome that particular thing.

I have checked with some of the hospitals and there are some shortages of specialized nursing. the one referred to is there were some probl~~s with the reorganization at the Janeway with the fact that they did 6179

June 9,1981 Tape No. 2280 AH-2 MR. HOUSE: have some reorganization with the opening of the new intensive care unit because before that intensive care and post~~perative were one and the same unit. There is a shortage and they will be closing some but they will be looking after all the emergency situations. The same thing applies to one other hospital that I was in contact with recently,and 6 1 J [I

June 9, 1981 Tape 2281 EC - l MR. HOUSE: I mentioned that one yesterday, that there is a shortage of nurses in the intensive care unit. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Leader of the Opposition. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the MR. STIRLING: Mr.

Speaker, maybe the Minister of Health can tell us at what point he feels he will have a serious situation in that the information which he has not given today is that one complete unit in the Janeway Hospital was closed down yesterday and another unit will be closed down either today or tomorrow, and it is very likely that the Janeway Hospital will have to go on an 'emergency only' service this Summer and that that situation is much worse than it has been for the last two or three years?

Would the ~inister indicate how bad he feels it has to get before he will acknowledge that we have a serious nursing shortage in this Province and specifically as it concerns the Janeway Hospital? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I have received a note from the Director of the hospital. He is saying it is similar to other years. He did give me .the number of nurses who were out for various reasons, twelve on leave, and there are eighteen, I think, vacancies they are trying to fill and that was partly because of the reorganization.

They are in the process of doing that, but they are expecting to not be able to fill their complement 1 not before September at least. That is their expectation. But they are saying that there is no emergency and that they will be able to carry on and give an excellent service. They are attuned to the kind of thing that happens because in the Summer it is a time when it is the holiday season and it is a time when there is not a lot of elective surgery going on. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. r 1 ·-. ·1 Q \ 0 I

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2282 SD - 1 ~- SPE~~ER (Simms) the Opposition . Supplementary, the hon. Leader of .)ffi. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I have given the minister an opportunity to give us the full information and he is trying to create an impression in which this is normal and blamed on re-organization. Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter is the re-organization is caused by the fact that they are missing thirty nurses - twelve on maternity leave and they are short eighteen - which caused them to have to close two units. And, Mr. Speaker, he is giving the impression that this happened last year.

I tell the minister it did not happen last year - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The purpose of Question Period is not to provide information but to ask questions and I would ask the han. Leader of the Opposition to ask his question. MR. STIRLING: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I believe the purpose of Question Period is to try to get information and when a minister does not give information - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Comments after rulings are also out of order. The han. Leader of the Opposition should have a question. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health CMr.

House). Can he tell us at what point that he will consider the Janeway Child Health Centre as having a serious problem? When they can only accept emergency services! At what point does he thing it will be an emergency situation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. ~1R. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I suppose it would be an emergency 'l'lhen they cannot accept emergencies , but I am advised by the administrator that there is no emergency, that 6 ·1 u 2

JuD,e 9, 1981 Tape No . 2282 SD - 2 ~1R. F.OUSE: it is normal. ! did say they were looking for eightee~ oeo?le now and there were twelve on leave - I mentioned there were a number on leave. And it may not have been the same as it .was last year because I ~ould not assume that the same twelve were en ma~e=~icy leave ~~is year . :1R . STIRLING : units last year . MR .

ROUSE : No, but they did ~ot close They did ~ot close units las~ year becau~e ~~s year, as I mentio ned about ~e re-organizaticn, is the Eac~ ~~at che cwo unit s are separate - the i~tensive care unit and the post -op erat .ive unit are separate this year and ~hey were one unit last year . So they could ~ot close ic :a~ yea: . ~.

St'eaker, we are hav::1g a scudy wich the ~epartmenc of ~ea:cn and che Nursing Association on the manpo wer problems and one of the things that we are finc!ing is that, you know, it is noc all adding U!?, there are a lot of :>eople who are nurses who are ::~ot '"'orki :1g .. :lalci we had, ! ~hi~k ic was something li~e 9 ?er cenc o= one ?articular year tvho left the ~rovin ce, I believe the year 1976, but •.re have a like number coming in :rom ot.'1ers, so chere is ::~ot ~hat much of a loss . The real ?roblem ~hough does come l3 t~e Summer.

Las~ year ?racticall y every hospital clo.. ~ 3ome beds beca use c!'lere is not a lot of surgery going on i:1 the Swn1ner, ;>art icul arl y elecr;ive surgery . We had it happen in Goose Bay lase year a.'1.d, as I say, ·,;e did :lot close them do•Nn ~e re beca~se we did :lOt have a loc of t~em o;::en lase yea r a~ t~e Jar.et va y. So 6JjJ

June 9, 1981 Tape 2.283 PK- 1 MR. HOUSE.: the information I got,and I ;ot it on a note this morning from the adm:Lnistrator, is :nat emergencies· are easily looked afterr there is no ~roblem of givir.g the necessary care there this year, Ana they are not expecting to be able to fully staff the hospital before September. MR. STIRLING: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplemen~ary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Would the minister table for the be~efit of the House the information which he has currently re~eived from other hospitals indicating severe shortages witn :1rses? Would he table for this House the up-to-date situa~l~:: as it applies for the present time and for the balance c= the Summer? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of He~~~h. M.~. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the hospi ::a.~ noarci .s do not necessarily advise the department of the infor~~~c.on, and in a lot of cases the only information we get in :h at respect is when we go asking for it because they are responsible.

I know,for instance,that one of the hospitals is currently trying to r;~~uit outside of the Province. But I have no detailed ·.l_)-to-date list of the. problem as it pertc...~ns across the Pr:J:Y.ince. We check with the occasional hospital to see ~1at it is like. We did one, I think, in March of this year and circulated all of the hospitals and asked them what they anticipated in the coming year , and most of them at that particular time were saying that the situation w·as stable. That means there may have been a number of vacancies but that is reasonably normal. They did mention the 6 '\ [j 4

June 9, 1981 Tape. 2283 PK.- 2 MR . HOUSE: intens~ve. care. unit 1-;as a ;)it of a problem . And the other ~Ltuation was that thay did not expect to have any otiier than no:r::mal problems thi.s year. Last year when I ~d the same tiling , they had ant i cipated a number of closures during' tfie SUIIIllle.r, but, of course, it did not roate rali.ze beca use there were a lot of part-time people ,,;ho came !:iack.. to work. And I wou ld suspect that they may be getting the same thing this year .

But to answe .r the question., I have. not got it to lay on tne table because they are not required a nd they do not necessarily writ e. and advise me o.f the situation. l>lR . STIRL ING: NR . SPE:.JU<ER (Simms l : Capes. But you are the Minister of Health . Tt-~ hon. mem\b.er for St .Mary's - The MR . HANCOCK: A supplementary , Mr . Speaker . I •.vould lLite to ask. the minister could he inform this hon . House as to ;.vhat Ls r.ap pening to all of our graduates from the ~:nr "'i. ~<:r School · Are they moving onto other provinces because of ~h~ 6lo5

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2284 Dl"i'- 1 MR. D • H.!l.NCOCK: difference in wage scales in other provinces compared to this one or are we training enough student nurses to look after the needs of the hospitals in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Health. MR. W. HOUSE: The hon. the Minister of ~x. Speaker, we have a capacity to train about 300 nurses per year and that is the number we take in in any one particular year.

By the time the graduation rolls around you getan attrition rate; some years in some classes you might get as many as fifty who have gone by the way , so you are getting between 250 and 300 graduating per year. We feel this is enough at the present time,although we are in the process of doing a study. We feel that·this is enough because we have put a large number of nurses onstrearn in the last five years. For instance, the Health Sciences Complexcame onstrearn in the last five yearsjut that did not take away necessarily a lot of the nurses who are down at the Miller Centre. So you are adding.

And we feel that if we put more places in now we may have an over supply fairly soon. There are a number leaving the Province. I cannot answer what the reasons are, but there is a number leaving every Province. For instance, there is a shortage of nurses now West of Quebec; they are 1,600 nurses short. There are 400 short in Atlantic Canada and Quebec. So the answer is,yes,the nursing situation is that the nurses are very mobile as are doctors,as are all health care professionals. So I cannot answer your question, is it because of wages? I would sus­ pect that is one factor, there is no question about it.

But British Colurnbia,where the wages are the highest in Canada, has a severe shortage right now at the present time. 6 1 (j G

June 9, 1981 Tape No . 2284 ~ffi. SPEAKER (Simms ) : The hon. member !or St . Barbe. MR. T. BENNETT: This question is directed to t.he ~1inis ter of Health (Hr . House) . Nould the minister con!irm or deny ~hat trained ~ersonnel working tor the Oepar~~ent. of H~alth are be~ng re lieved from t~eir jobs and, indeed, replaced by untraL,ed or ~rainees :r om t~e Depar~ment of Social Services case load? Would t.~e minister confirm or deny th~s? :1R . SPEAKER: :iealt.h. The hon . ~inister of MR. rl'l . ROUSR : Mr. Speaker, at t.his OW - 2 part~cular point in time I cannot either cor.firm or deny it .

The fact is I do not think c~ere is anybody being displaced, par1:icularly :nL'::ses, if that is •.•hat: you are referr l.ng ~o. because a~ this cime of t~e year that would no1: ::e ~:he case. I do not !<now . ..,hat Social Services are ~-q. BENNETT : nurses aides . ~urses aides, I am talking about ~R . r,v. HOus;;;: :·iell, I thi:tk t~ere is some question what Gualifies as an aide . I can get t~at informat~on for the E!ouse .

There are two categories in nurses ' aices, one category those who are trained and qualify vis-a -vis our voca tiona l schools, and the others are ?ersons who have worked without any training. There are cases where I chink ~ere is go~g to be a- I do not know if 'jurisdiction' is the righ't. word, but whether they can qualify, 61d7

June 9, 1981 Tape 2285 EC - l MR. HOUSE: whether the ones who are not trained can take the jobs that trained people want. So I will get the information on that because it is a little bit of a problem with the union and so on. MR. BENNETT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the member If the minister would check with his colleague, Mr. Speaker,and if he needs specific evidence, further evidence, if the,~inister so desires I will certainly get the evidence for him. You can check with your colleague. MR. SPEAKER: MR.

HOUSE: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, these are the kinds of details that I would not necessarily have information on. If the hon. member has a specific case, certainly I will look into it and find out about it. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the ma~er for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Premier.

It has to do with some very interesting news that I heard this morning - interesting and possibly disturbing in some aspects - and that is the fact that oil from L~e high Arctic is going to be brought down through the Northwest Passage and we are informed that the large tankers that will bring the oil down from the high Arctic will increase substantially the number of ships, oil tankers, that will be passing the shores of Newfoundland. I am sure it is something that we all have to watch very carefully, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the hon. the Premier if he is aware of this situation and,if so, would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House if there have been any discussions as to plans to take care of any emergency situation that might develop­ although it seems to be a long way down the road, 6 1 Ci B

June 9, 198~ Tape 2285 EC - 2 MR . tiEARY: nevertheless, it will be on top of us before we know what happened -Lf there are any plans to take care of ar.y emergencies that might develop off ~~e coast of Newfoun~and as a res~t of the movement of ~hese large tankers along our shores? MR . SPEAKER (Simms ): The hon . the Premier. PRU~IER ?ECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, there was somebody from the federal Departmen~ of Transport, I think, on the radio this morning .

He had some gentleman on talking about tanker traffic out of the Arctic down through the Straits and tha~ there was some ~ndica~ion that some oLl companies, or a~ least his bias was that the transportation should go that route. The ?anarctic group have done a lot of work in the Arctic islands and Dome is doing a fair amount of ~orl< now in che Beaufort Sea and ~~~ie Delta and in the Arctic itself . Imperial are involved up there and o1o9

June 9, 19 .81 Tap·e: No. 228 6. NM.,. 1 PREMIER PEC~FORD: a nlli~er of other companies are about to get involved. There is still a question of how you are going to deliver the oil and gas from those areas, especially the Arctic, because it is quite likely, I suppose, that the Beaufort Sea and MacKenzie Delta will either come by pipeline down the MacKenzie Delta or come across the pipe­ line to Alaska and come down the West Coast, depending upon what the various regulatory agencies agree on. As you know, the Berger Enquiry indicated and recommended that a ten year moratorium be put on the pipeline down the Delta.

So we are looking I guess primarily at the Arctic Islands and the transport of oil and gas by LNG for gas and tanker for oil, or by pipeline. So have talked about the Hudson's Bay and coming down that way through Quebec. There has been no determination to my knowledge yet from any of the companies that they have finally decided on one route over another.

We have had over the last year, or two years, a number of discussions with various companies and with the federal government about the whole question of tanker traffic, the whole question of the transport of oil and gas from the Arctic and we have expressed some concerns about it. But the specifics have not been determined yet. But there seems to be now renewed interest in this kind of alternative transportation mode for the movement of oil and gas. And obviously I could echo with the hon.member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) concern as it relates to that because there is a lot of environmental and marine related problems that could arise with any increase in that kind of traffic down our West Coast. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 61 g 0

June 9', 19.81 Tape. No. 2286: NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) for LaPoile. A supplementary, the hon. member MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman knows, the tankers will oe passing over our most precious resource, namely the fishery,and with all the increased activity off our own shore and the number of tankers apparently will be quite a few because there are only certain times of the year that they can bring the tankers down, although they are looking at tankers now that can penetrate the ice and so forth, would the hon. gentleman indicate who will act as the watch dog?

I mean,who in Newfoundland will? ~ill it be the Canadian Coast Guard, will it be the Provincial Department of the Environment? Who will develop the facilities to take care of an a~ergency off this Coast in the event that it should happen? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: In most cases there is some shared jurisdiction there between the two environmental departments,federally and provincially, as well as the Coast Guard. We have been kept fairly well informed by most of the oil industry and the oil and gas industry because of our involvement anyway. So we are pretty well clued in on that.

Now the Petroleum Directorate has a fair amount of information on that, ehe Department of Environment would, so we have been fairly well on top of some of the proposals but up until now they have been mere proposals and tentative ways of moving the oil and gas. There has to be a fair amount of exploration done yet. Technology is developing very fast. A number of companies, including Dome and Pan Arctic,are looking at new designs. The Department of Development knows a fair amount on this score as well. And they have looked at a number of designs.

It might interest the hon. member to know that in that regard I guess one of the areas where a lot of information for technological breakthroughs will come ("', ;-! ., 0 I 0 I

June 9,1981 Tape No. 2287 AH-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: is the work through Lake Melville that is going ahead right now. ~he work through the Department' of Development, the MV Arctic and the Franklin,whichhave been in there over the last couple of years.so there is no question that you are going to see ships and tankers be developed that are going to be able to handle even those most difficult waters. But specifically,to answer the hon. member's concerns, it would be shared jurisdiction between the two levels of government.

There has been a fair amount of work done by the Energy Department, the Department of Development and the Department of the Environment over the last while on it but there has been nothing specific as of yet. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary. The hon. member for LaPoile,followed by the hon. member for Windsor­ Buchans. MR.NE'ARY: Does the hon. Premier feel now that it would be very worthwhile to reactivate the matter of storing oil for trans-shipment in Newfoundland? We have the capacity here, The han. gentleman know of the proposal in connection with the abandoned Bell Island rnine,for instance.

Is it possible now that Newfoundland,in view of these huge tankers corning down from the high Arctic,that Newfoundland could become a large storage area for the crude that would be trans-shiped later on? is that possibility there now? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, first of all the han. member should recognize that there was a difference between the oil storage that was being proposed for the Bell Island mines and this new development now in the .\rctic and the difference was this: The United States of America made a decision that they wished to store,because of the OPEC crisis in the early 1970s, to store in strategic locations both on land,or on the Continental United 6182

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2287 AR-2 PR&~I~ PECKFORD: States, as 1"ell as offshore in . friendly countries ,oil in case there would be another threat and the taps turned of in the Middle East. So it •11as not oil to be used immediately,it was oil to be used in cases of a crisis or an emergency. The present circumstances are quite different,I may suggest,in that a lot of the oil and gas is going to be discovered is going to be •ranted to be used immediately in refineries and petrochemical complexes around the \vcr ld and around the Eastern seaboard , so that the situation is not exactly the same .

However, i! in fact there is a role to be played for strategic storage in addition to feeding the immediate needs of the Eastern seaboard,then ~ore stand to be abl.e to respond to that in a very good way and we have a lot of plans already developed on that score that I was very much a ?art of a number of years ago and I ~~ank the bon. member for bringing it to my attention again. MR . S?EA~~R (Simms) : The hon .member for ~-Jindsor - Buchans. MR . FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question !or the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power ) , Mr .

Speaker, and I was wondering if the minister would inform the House ·why it is ~hat ~he loggers for .Price (Nfld J - it is now Ute ninth of June-a r e not in the woods and the word in the area is L~at ~~e Price (Nfld) loggers will not go back in the woods until the last of June? That is very peculiar in view of the fact that normally the \voodlands ope r ation is going now. Would the minister tell the House why it is that U1e Price (Nfld) employees nave not been permitted to go back in the woods nor will be permitted before the end of J une? 61S J

June 9, 1981 MR. SPEAKER lS'imms }: and Lands. Tape 2288 PK - 1 The hon. Minister of Forest Resource~ MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I had meetings last week wit~ Mr. Gillingham and members of t~e Loggers Union representatives, and I am also having meetings with Abitibi. Price. There does not seem to be a major problem with the loggers not going back until the last of June.

Tliey were off earlier be­ cause of I assume, road conditi.on& and other problems that the com- pany w-as having relating to the wood supply, The union in their meetings wit~ us last week expressed no great concern about that problem, and it was expected that they would return the third or fourth week of June ., they would be going back to work. As I understand it, they are. simpl;r localized conditions that are not causing a major concern for the loggers-. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A further ~~pplementary, the non. member for Windsor-Buchans, MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot understand men not be.ing allowed to work not causing major problems for the loggers. It is the loggers that the problem is being created for because they cannot work, you know. But Price (_Nfld. )_ also L"l recent days had private contractors cutting wood off Crown lands and that kind of thing, non-unionized people, private contractors supplying w:ood- to the mill. Price - (Nfld. 1 have pulled these people out of the woods and they cannot go back until June. Would the. minister tell me w~y that particular thing has taken place? MR. MOORES: 1 Charlie 1 • MR. SPEAKER: and Lands.

What is the big mystery here, The hon. Minister of Forest Resources 6 1 s ~

June 9, 19.81 Tape 2288 PK 2 MR. MOORES: What is the big mystery? MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I assume it nad something to do with the wood supply that Abitibi Price has on hand at this time . of the year. It is possible, I know th .ey were very active in getting wood cut earlier the year. The negotiations and dicussions that we had the other day with Mr.

Gillingham and the members of the Loggers Union related to the problem as it relates to private contractors cutting on Crown land and how in certain cases those persons had problems that were not being dealt with by the Union because they were not Onion personnel, and that, of course, the. Union wanted to see the ways of solving that given problem. Again I can only assume,and I do not have any repre5entation from either the Union or from Abitibi Price as · to why they are off so long, only in the sense that it possibly relates to their wood storage. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): member for Windsor-Buchans.

A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. MR. FLIGHT: I wonder if the minister would indicate he seems to indicate that the reason the loggers are not back in the woods or the private contractors are not producing is because of an oversupply of wood - I wonder if the minister would indicate to the House that in the event Price (Nfld.) decided to move all the wood that they have lying around the woods to the mill, how long could they operate without putting any loggers back into the woods? MR. SPEAKER: and Lands . The . han. Minister of Forest, Resources, MR. POWER : Mr.

Speaker, obviously that question is very difficult to answer. First of all you would have to get 61 8 5

June 9, 1981 Tape 2-288 PK - 3 ~1R·. PONER : a very detailed account of how many cords of wood are l.ying around in the woods that is not in the main stream of getting to the Mill,You would have to find t .he .. - ..... - ·· requirements for any given day for Abitibi - Price and then you could deduce, I suppose, how many days the mill could run without actually h.avin .g loggers in the ,,,oods .

Abitibi ­ Price,in our management agreemen~that we have wi~~ them, we forced ~~a~ to do a lot of harvesting on budworrn killed timber, we forced them to harvest in a certain given manner If on ce.r tain given weeks or months .~bi.tibi - Price. because of over production in the forest have an oversupply on hand, then certain~y ..it does not come wi.thin our parameters to forc e AD.i.tibi - Pr.ice force or to have their loggers in the ·woods on any given day . MH .• HANCOCK: Mr . Speaker. 61 86

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2289 SD - l MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: I yield, Mr. Speaker. He wishes to yield. The han. member for Windsor - Would the minister indicate whether or not Price (Nfld.) has just finished recently a sacking programme for cleaning up Red Indian Lake and various major rivers that they use to drive wood to the mill? Would the minister indicate whether or not he is satisfied with the amount of wood cleaned up and with the amount of wood got by the sack?

Ls he satisfied that Price (Nfld.) have indeed picked up all the wood that should be picked up and delivered to the mill? Is he satisfied with what has happened? MR. SPEAKER: Resources and Land. MR. POWER: The han. Minister of Forest Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the actual details of the sacking programme that was done around those lakes.

I know in consultation with the Department of the Environment and our Department of Forestry which, of course, does the management of the forest resource, we have been very actively and aggressively encouraging Abitibi-Price and Bowaters to clean up the logs that they have lost around the great lakes that they have where they bring harvested wood down to the mills,and that they are doing that. Exactly how much was cleaned up and what percentage of wood around any given shore has been cleaned up, I have not seen that report but if it is either in the Minister of Environment's office (Mr.

Andrews) or in mine I will certainly be glad to find out and let the member know. MR. SPEAKER: The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: The han. member for St. Mary's - Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister 6 1 8 7

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2289 SD - 2 MR. HA.l.'ICOCK : Development (Hr. Windsor). I am wondering if the minister could inform this House whether or not the number of inquiries from tourists outside the Province is up or down this year? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give a detailed answer. I will get that information for the hon. member as to exactly how many inquiries we have had from outside.

I will say that in the various tourist exhibitions and t.hat that we have attended, we have had an extremely higher level of interest in Newfoundland 1particularly as it relates to bus tours. As I announced some time ago,we were successful recently in signing up for next year a series of thirty-eight tours to the Province which will generate more than $.2 million in this Province. We have also had a tremendous amount of interest shown in specialist facilities such as hunting and fishing cabins, canoeing, tours and that sort of thing, particularly from We'st Germany and France 1 by the way. MR. HANCOCK: MR.

SPEAKER: for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. F..ANCOCK: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member I wonder if the minister could inform the House whether or not their advertising programme has been cut back this year,or are they on the same par with last year or are they advertising in the upper part of Canada or in Canada and the States again this year the same as they were last year? MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, we are doing less advertising in Central Canada this year than we were in previous years.

We are concentrating more on the close markets of the Maritime Provinces an9 we are also going to. put a lot of emphasis on a stay at horne and see Newfoundland sort of affair. But there is less emphasis in Central Canada 61 ~ B

·~.- June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2289 so - 3 ~R . WINDSOR : and more emphasis on Eastern Canada and the r.1aritime Provinces and the New England States. ~~ - SPEAKER (Simm s): We have time for one quick question . The Capes. M.R . HANCOCK : The hon . memb er =or St . Mary 's - Does che minister feel this programme that he is bringing in no1v lvhere he is going to the European market will increase or decrease the number of t:ourists coming into the Province this year? Your new pro­ gramme of advertising, will it increase or decrease the number of tour~s~ coming into the ~rovince this year or are you only going co try it on an experiment:al basis? 6189

June 9, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. WINDSOR: Tape 2290 EC - 1 The han. the Minister of Development . Mr. Speaker, last year we had an increase of about 1 per cent, which ~;as somewhat better than other Maritime Provinces. The previous year we have had a record year. Last year we increased about 1 per cent

whereas other Maritime Provinces showed either the same level or slightly lesser. We would predict this year we will have about a 3 per cent increase at least in the tourist industry in this Province. SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER : expired. Hear, hear! The time for Oral Questions has I wish to welcome to the gallery today,on behalf of all hon. members, a delegation from the town of Port aux Basques, Mayor Rod Keeping, Councillor Max Keeping, Town Manager Fred Cox,and Mr. Walter Compton with canada Employment Service. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, the hon. the Premier to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Award Of Medals To Veterans Of The Province Who Volunteered To Serve In The British Imperial Forces During The Second World War," carried . (Bill No. 90). On motion, Bill No. 90 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the han. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting An Increase Of Certain Pensions For Transferred Employees," carried. (Bill No. 77). On motion, Bill No. 77 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. o2oo

June 9, 1981 Tape 2290 EC - 2 Motion, the hon . the Minister o£ Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To A."llend The Public Service (Pensions ) Act," carried . (Bill No . 67) . On motion , Bill No . 67 read a first t~"lle, ordered read a second time on tomorrow . Motion, the hon . the Mini ster of Financ e to introduce a bill, "An Act To .'\mend C.ertain Taxation Statutes, 1981," carried . (Bill No. 95) . On motion, Bill No. 95 read a first tim.e, ordered read a second time on tol'(lorrow .

Motion, the hon . the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Assignment Of Book Debts Act, " carried . (Bill No . 97) . On motion, Bill No . 97 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomo rrow. 62 u1

June 9, 1981 Taf?e No . 2291 Hotion, the hen . Mj.nisl:er of Justice to int=oduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act", carried . (Bill No . 96) OW - 1 On motion, Bill No. 96 reac a first time, ordered reac a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon . ~1inister of :-tunicipal Affairs to introduce a bill , "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's .l\.ct", carried. (Bill No. 4 3 l On ~otion, Bill No . 43 read a :irst time orcerec read a secon d time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon . ~tinister of ~-lunici!?a l .:~.:fairs to introduce a bHl, "An Act To Ame nd The Munici - ~ ·li1:ies Act", carried. (Bill No. 44 ) On motion, Bill No . 44 read a firsc time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 1-!otion, the hon . Minister of Municipal A::ai=s to i-ntroduce a bill, "All .l\.ct To Amend The :1unici­ ?al Elections Act", carried . (B ill ~o . 91) On motion, Bill No. 91 read a first t~me ordered read a second time on tomorr ow . Motion, ~~e ~on . :1inister of :1unicipal A .:~airs to int roduce a bill, ".'Ul Act To Amend The City Of St.

John 's Loan Act, 1978", carried. (Bill No. 93) On motion, Bill No. 93 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow . Motion, the hen. Minister of :1unicipal A:fai=s to int=oduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The St. John's Assessment Act", carried. (Bill No . 92) On motion, Bill ~o . 92 read a :irst tL~e ordered reac a second time on tomorrow. 62u2

June 9. 19.81 Tape. No. 2292 NM - 1 Motion, the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Mineral Act, 1976," carried. (Bill No. 94) On motion, Bill No. ~4 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Orde.r 60, Bill No. 88. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Landlord And Tenant (Residential TenanciesL Act, 1973 (No.2)." (BillNo. 88] MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. STIRLING: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of orde.r has been raised by the hon. Leader of the. Opposition. MR.

STIRLING: I am having real difficulty following these famous new rules that were introduced. They have taken off the budget debate so it does not come back on at all. And then we were going to do MR. NEARY: Shocking! Shocking! Shocking! MR. STIRLING: - concurrence debates and now we are back to legislation. Has the government given up on its rules altogether and saying, "We are going to decide on a day to say basis now on the order of business"? I mean,this great progressive government that brought in all of the rules to help business get through - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

STIRLING: - do we now say that - SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No. No. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - for whatever reasons those rules were brought in with such a great flourish they are now thrown in the garbage - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 62u.J

June 9., 1981 Tape No. 2292 NM - 2 .1-ffi.. STIRLING: - and that we are now going by the seat of the pants the way the government is doing and everything else that they are operating~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. MARSifALL : On that point - MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order,obviously, because the government has the right ot determine the legLslation . There is no breach of rules so there is no point of order. MR. STIRLING: that they - MR. MARSHALL: hon. gentleman wants. MR. SPEAKER: SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. MARSHALL: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: on a point of privilege . MR. MARSHALL: Sa.E HCN. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: is that - MR. HANCCCK: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: No, but they should not pretend I will answer the question if the B.y leave? ~To . Do you want me to answer the question? No. Well,I rise on a point of privilege, The hon. President of the Council The point of privilege - Oh, oh! The point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, What a waste of time. Order, please! - is that the hon. gentleman is disrupting once again the order of the House. The fact of the matter is the rules of this House, Mr.

Speaker, can only be chanqed in accordance with the House of Assembly Act. PREMIER PECKFORD: That is right. 62u4

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2292 NM- 3 MR. ~!ARSHALL : But the. hen . gentlemart does not kno~• it because he has never bee.ll._ it and he w:tJ.l never be in. it again, but the fact of the. matter is that thls is: the government; the government determines the order ef Bus~ness . PREMIER PE.CKF'ORD: Rear, hear~ MR.

MARSHALL: And the third thlng is if the han. gentleman wants to get up on smart aleck points of order like that - I informed him yesterd ay tha:t we would get on thi.s act, now if he is going to get up and he is going to degrade this House with these points of orders he •N.Lll not get notice in the future of what the government inte.!'ldS to do by day to day. SQ'1E SON. l·!EHBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms} : Order , please! Whi.le I did not allow an.y discussion on the point of order because. tfiere clearly was not one and again there clearly is no point of privilege . MR. STIRLING : l'lr.

Speaker, en a point of clari.,ficacion. This is a very serious matter MR . SPEAKER : Order, please : When the Spea.l{.er is standing hon . members should realize t.'ley should be seated. 1-iit.lt respect to thls point of pri.vilege I rule clearly there is no prima facie case which is the role of the Speaker. The hon.. Minister of Justice. MR . OTTENBEIMER: ThaJU<. you 1 l1r . Speaker . This bill, ''An Act To Amend Landlord and Tenant (Res i dential Tenancies ) Act," acc omplishes essentially t.~ee things, 62 l.;5

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2293 DW - 1 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: So I will outline what the three of them four. Five of the clauses are necessary in order to amend the Act because of a recent decision of the Supreme Court given down May 28th. I believe was the date you know, give o'r take a day, and the effect of that decision as far as Residential Tenancies Boards were concerned is that matters of eviction and compliance orders may only result from a superior court. In other words, a

section ninety-six court, a court where judges are federally apoointed. MR. NEARY: That is nonsense. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER : Is the hon. gentleman - I mean,I am not a member of the Supreme Court of Canada. That is what the Supreme Court of Canada said. There is no where to appeal the Supreme Court of Canada. AN HON. MEMBER: Not yet. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: It was appealed. It was appealed from the Ontario Court of Appeal. There is no further to go.Unless the divinity is going to intervene in human affairs,there is nowhere else to go.

That was the effect of the decision as far as landlord tenancies boards or residential tenancies boards - whatever they are called ; in different provinces they are called different things. This is a matter which developed in Ontario and which decision obviously has effect across Canada.

So the effect of it is for our Residential Tenancies Board, and indeed other provinces are going to have to review, and are, in fact, reviewing their legislation, but as far as our situation in this Province is concerned 1 the effect of thst decision of the Supreme Court of Canada, which decided on an appeal from the Ontario Court of Appeal,was that matters of eviction and compliance orders are not within the jurisdiction of a provincially created residential tenancies board or indeed of a pro­ vincial court• but only of a what is technically called a 62G6

June 9, 1981 Ta9e No . 2293 DW - 2 !o!R . G • OT TENHEIMER : superior court . So what ~.re have done there in those clauses - and there is no change in substance but a change Ln identifying the jurisdiction - matters which before were directed to the Regional Tenancies Board in mo st cases,and in some ca ses provincial courts,are now directed to che di st~ict court .· As I said,there were three basic thing s that the bill does and that is one of them . That is,it makes amendments which are necessary because of a recent decision of the Supreme Court of Canada. That is the first thing it does .

The next th ing it does - and I will come to the main impact of it later although obviously those alterations are absolutely necessary. If we did not bring in those amendments for all practical pu rposes our Residential Tenancies Board and the legtslation and the oro­ tection we can give people would be emasculated, evisce~aced. You know, ~~ose amendments are ab solutely necessary as a result o£ that decisio n of the Sup reme Court of Canada. Then there is a clause, ·and that is the lase clause in the bill,which puts in statutory form those 62u7

June 9, 1981 Tape 2294 EC - 1 MR.

OTTENHEU1ER: matters which a residential tenancies board must take into consideration when setting a rent, because this did not affect the jurisdiction of residential tenancies boards in determining rents but only in determin~ng matters of eviction and compliance orders, and it is without limiting it, without limiting the board to these matters, the board .in setting the rent for a residential premises shall take into effect certain factors, and they are: "A fair and equitable return on investment, the current fair market value or reasonable operating costs and the quality of life and shelter." I do not think there is any way of explaining those any more succinctly than they are in the actual words of the proposed legislation.

I point out that these are factors actually which were given in a $upreme Court judgement some time ago by Justice Noel Goodridge. These are factors which have been operative in the sense of being precedents in, you know, judge-made law, but which are now given a statutory reference. These are given a statutory reference through this amendment. That is the second thing the amendment does. The third thing it does is covered in what is Clause 3 here, and that is to prohibit group evictions.

So it prohibits group evictions; it also gives what I will call retroactive protection, that is for persons who are in possession as of May 30th or after and who may have received such notices. And we all know that there are some instances where this has happened. So it prohibits group evictions and it gives retroactive protection. Now it further goes on to say that where the landlord can justify that he requires possession of a residential premise for one of three acts and that landlord has obtained all the necessary permits, the judge may make an order terminating the tenancy and evicting.

Those three areas are: Number one, demolition of the building in question; number two, changing the use of a residential premise to some 62GB

June 9, 1981 Tape 2294 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: other use; and number three, making renovations of such a nature that vacancy is required. Those are the three which are specified there. Then it goes on to say that in those cases the order may lie and will be operative three months thereafter. I will skip a bit because it is the logical place perhaps to put it in explaining the bill, but it is not where it is in the bill, and that is that in those instances where the court is satisfied that the eviction will cause undue hardship, the court, the judge, may extend that notice period up to six months.

That is covered as well. There is also a matter whereby if a landlord has had eviction notices served for one of these three purposes and does not in fact do what he has undertaken to do in terms of the demolition or the extensive renovations and the third one, changing the use, then he must within a year apply to the Residential Tenancies Board and obviously the purpose of that is so that he cannot evade the Residential Tenancies Board rent setting jurisdiction by what could be termed a devious tactic. MR. CARTER: question? MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): North. MR. CARTER: Would the minister permit a Yes.

The minister permits a question. The hon. the member for St. John's Mr. Speaker, one of the questions I have for the minister is, if eviction and compliance are removed from the jurisdiction of the Residential Tenancies Board, what then is left for them besides the setting of rents? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, the setting of rents is essentially what is left for them. You know, that then is essentially their duties. They are out of the area of 6 2 i..! 9

June 9, 1981 Tape 2294 EC - 3 MR. OTTENHEIMER: evictions and out of the area of compliance orders but there are other matters there too. But their essential function is a hearlig upon the raising of a complaint by a tenant and indeed by a landlord, you know, there can be complaints coming from landlords as well. 6 2 1 0

June 9, 1981 Tape 2295 PK - 1 MR. OTTENHEIHER: But, you know, I certainly think Residential Tenancie~ Boards are necessary because you have to have the mechanism whereby these complaints can be heard in some impartial process to make a determination of these matters. These Residential Tenancies Boards I regard as quasi judicial kinds of boards.

Now within the group evictions we are thinking in terms of, you know, somebody owning ten or more units, ei.ther directly or indirectly And we have given, if you wish, a two-pronged definition to group eviction; one, if you wish, precise and the other one in the area of judicial discretion because,you know, you can never cover every instance, and indeed I do not think it is a good idea for legislation to attempt to so do. I mean,you would have legislation one hundred pages long and you would never cover every particular configuration of circumstances.

So we have a two-pronged definition,one where 50 per cent or more of the tenants receive notice to quit, or the landlord refuses to renew, that is, on a percentage basis ,?nd the other in the area of judicial discretion,where one or more tenants -. of a landlord receive notice to quit, and it appears to a judge, having regard for the circumstances of the case,that the primary purpose of issuing the notices is to affect a group eviction. One could think of a circumstance there, for example, where fifteen people would get a notice, one a month over fifteen months. There is an area of judicial discretion there.

So essentially those are the three areas of change within the legislation. Five of t~e clauses required through the Supreme COUrt decision l'lhich in effect takes away or denies or says, never existed - henceforth, anyway, it does not exist- the jurisdiction in t:erms of eviction or compliance orders , this has to be exercised by the superior court,and in this case it will be the district court. Then 6 21 '1

June 9, 1981 Tape 2295 PK - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: giving statutory reference to those factors , not being exhaustive, which the Residential Tenancies Board are directed to take into account, and 1 thirdly, the prohibition of group evictions as I recently outlined. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Butt): The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, one is given very little time actually to have a complete look at this particular piece of important legislation which is coming from the House, this particular bill, we got a copy of it - yesterday and it was tabled in the House today.

I can under­ stand the speed which the government wants to put it through. Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out though that this is not the original amendment, it is not the original bill that came before this House. The original bill, Mr. Speaker, is shown on the Order Paper as Bill No. 59, "An Act To Amend The Landlord (Residential Tenancies) Act". Now that particular bill was withdrawn and it was withdrawn because, Mr.

Speaker, on the Opposition reading this particular bill it was discovered that the original piece of legislation was, I do not know for what reason, but made a major sweeping change in the landlord and tenancies law in this Province, in that it gave a tenant security of tenure.

And the way the original piece of legislation was brought before the House 1 it meant that literally when you entered into a lease with a landlord and as long as you did not breach the lease or any of the conditions of the lease,and as long as you paid your rental on time every month, that you,had security of tenure; in other words, a landlord could not get you out once you got in, once you got your foot in the door there was no way that a landlord in this Province could have gotten you out. 6 2 -l 2 _;

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2296 SD - 1 MR. THOMS: This was the original Bi·ll No. 59. This was brought to the attention of the government and as a result, Mr. Speaker, we have now a bill coming before the House that essentially does what we all thought the amendment was going to do in the beginning. Well,I hope it does what it is trying to do here. But, Mr. Speaker, the Supreme Court decision saying that Residential Tenancies Boards did not have jurisdiction when it came to compliance orders, was really not the reason that the original Bill 59 was withdrawn and the ne 1v Bill 88 was brought in.

The reason that the original bill was withdrawn and a new one brought in was because an ever alert Opposition in this House caught something in a bill that the government was attempting to pass throug~ this House in the last thirteen minutes of a sitting one day. But, as I say, Mr. Speaker, with an aiert Opposition this was picked up, our concerns were conveyed to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and to the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) and as a result we have a new bill in. MR. NEARY: Well done yourself! So you can claim an assist on that one. MR. THOMS: on this bill. ~1R. HANCOCK: yet though.

MR. MARSHALL: We can certainly claim an assist You are not going to win a scoring title It just shows this is a reasonable, listening ~t . MR. THOMS: 'A reasona:Jl ·.=, listening government! I am surprised, Mr. Speaker, Someday I would love to find out why - MR . NEA..R.Y : You were afraid it would affect your buddies too much. MR. THOMS: - I would love to know why they changed their mind on the original piece of legislation - MR. NEARY: Their buddies gave them the works. MR. THOMS: - because the track record of this 6 2 1 J

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2296 SD - 2 ~' ~~OMS: government and the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) has been that there is nothing good can come from this side of the House. Any suggestions we make automatically are disregarded on the. other s.i..de of the House. So, Mr. Speaker, I have a funny feeling in my bones - MR. HANCOCK: MR. THOMS: You have them freaking out over there. - that maybe we have a few landlords on the other side of the House - MR. HANCOCK: Hear, hear. MR. THOMS: - or we have a few lawyers whose clients are landlords in this Province. MR. HANCOCK: Now you are talking. MR.

THOMS: And there may, Mr. Speaker, apart from the alertness of the Opposition in picking this up originally ; there may have been a bit of a lobby from the landlords in connection with the original bill that came before this House 1 and I have a feeling that they helped to have the original bill withdrawn and the new one brought in. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, enough for the reason why we are now debating Bill 88 instead of Bill 59.

The government has taken the opportunity now, having withdrawn the original bill, to transfer certain jurisdictions that the Residential Tenancies Board had now to the District Courts because, as I have said, ~B.C. court in a ruling passed down very recently• decided that the Residential Tenancies Boards did not have the authority to grant compliance orders at all. ·so now what we are doing here is transferring that jurisdiction from the Residential Tenancies Board to the District Court. There is one thing that this is going to do-- the Minister of Justice (Hr.

Ottenheimerl may not have had. any problems- but certainly it is going to mean, I believe anyway, a greater expense to those who are forced into the !?osition of having to take matters to the 6 :z •j 4

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2296 SD - 3 MR. THOMS: District Court. I have a feeling lawyers are going to charge more for appearing before the District Court, which,by the wa~ 6 2 'i j

June 9,1981 Tape No. 2297 AH-1 MR. THOMS: will shortly become Supreme Courts in this Province because there is a bill - I do not know if on the Order Paper but it is certainly corning on the Order Paper - ·.to merge the Supreme Court and the District Courts in this Province. So that all the District Courts- the District Court that sits in Grand Bank, in Grand Falls, Corner Brook, and a new one being appointed in Labrador -they will all become Supreme Court judges and will have all the jurisdiction thatour present Supreme Court has.

I suppose there should be a certain saving because circuit courts,I assume once the merger takes place,will not be necessary, It will not be necessary for our Supreme Court 1 which sits in St. John's,to travel to Grand Falls, to travel to Corner Brook, Labrador or other places to hear cases outside the city of St. John's. So this bill transfers that jurisdiction to the District Courts and the reason,as I said,was because of the decision of the Supreme Court that was handed down very recently. Mr.

Speaker, the second part of it, the second part of it deals with what has become known because of one situation in the city of St. John's,and that is the situation at the Regency Towers,where all the tenants were served with eviction notices as an attempt to get around the Residential Tenancies Board. There was an attempt made by the landlord to avoid having to go to the Residential Tenancies Board.

By evicting everybody and bringing in new tenants 1 he would not have to go to the board to ask for a rent increase,which I assume he figured he would not get 1 so therefore he gave everybody eviction notices, he was going to throw everybody out,and that way he could put new people in and not have to go to the Residential Tenancies Board. So this particular

section of this legislation is brought in to prevent group evictions. Mr. Speaker, as I said,this legislation 6 2 '1 6

June 9,1981 Tape No. 2297 AH-2 MR. THOMS: has only been tabled in the House today. I saw a copy for the first time yesterday. We were given copies by the minister. I had an opportunity to briefly look at it last night and there are some questions.

I am not so sure after reading the legisla~ion that it will in fact prevent the group evictions or whether or not an unfeeling landlord would be able to find a way around this particular legislation because group eviction is defined under this amendment, it is defined as•a circumstance where fifty per cent or more of the tenants of a landlord receive notices.' My question to the minster - I hope the minister is listening in the Common Room-but my question to the minister,and I would like for him to address himself to it when he - I did not mean for the minister to come back; as long as he was listening,that is the thing.

MR. NEARY: He should be in his seat while we are debating his bill. MR. THOMS: The question that I ha ve,just in case y~u did not hear it,was the definition of a group eviction says the circumstance where fifty per cent or more of the tenants receive notices to quit. Okay? Am I to asurne from that that if you give forty-nine per cent notices to quit that it does not apply? MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, there is an 'or' in there. Right? MR. THOMS: Yes, okay, but the 'or'. Are you referring to where the landlords refuse to renew? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Or where one or more tenants receive notices to quit or refuse to renew•and it appears to the judge having regard to the circumstances that the primary purpose is to effect a group eviction.' MR. THOMS: saying is that So in other words what you are 6 2 1 7

June 9, ~98~, Tape 22~8, Paga l ~ apo MR. THOMS: you may give out five evicti:on not.ices·, or ten eviction notices, or fifteen, of you may g.ive out 5 per cent, lS per cent, 20 . per cent, or whatever, and a judge could rule that this was a group eviction and therefore . .illegal under this Act. MR. OTTENHEIMER: That is correct. MR. THOMS: Okay . MR. OTTENHEIMER: That could be done by giving so many one month, so many another month., so many anothe.r month, so none of them in total, but all of them together or at a certain point, it would become obvious to the court. Right? MR. THOMS: Yes, but at what point?

And by the time it becomes obvious · to the court MR. OTTENHEIMER: Same. would have been. MR. THOMS: - some would have been turfed out and so on. So this particular provision right now is not airtight. And r can appreciate the fact tliat the draftsmen in the department were working under pressure to get this thing in because of the Regency Towers situation, because this particular piece of legislation is retroactive to the 3lst. of May. Whether eviction notices have or have not expired, this Act still takes care of those. But while we are on the definition of group evictions,subsection (

a) says: "The circumstance. where fifty per cent or more of the tenants of a landlord receive notices to quit their residential premises". That is fine! But then, Mr. Speaker, it goes on to say: "Or the landlord refuses to renew their leases at or about the same time". Now, Mr. Speaker, I guess I am getting to the - and I believe other people are - 6 2 "1 8

June 9., l9 .8l, Tape.2298, Page .2 ~- apo MR. THOMS: we are. getting to a point under governments - not just tne administration or the government of this Province, :Out govennents everywh.e.re where they seem to have. taken, sat down and made a deliberate decision that only governments know what is good for the. peopl.e. The people themselves have to be protected against themse .l ves. I do not believe that and I hope that I will never see the day where I am forced to adopt that point of view. And this particular

section is the same sort of thing. In this session of the House we are going to be adopting legislation providing for compulsory use of seat belts. This legislation may be necessary, I have not really 'ID.ade up my mind ye.t. The one thing that bothers me about that is again a person< s right is being infringed upon. And here in this particular piece of legislation we are assuming, Mr. Speaker, that twc mature adults, reasonably intelligent people, should not be bound by a legally made contract. Now, a lease is a contract. A lease is no different from a contract which the. bon. the member for Menih.ek.(Mr.

Walsh.) would enter into to have. his driveway paved. It is no different. There are laws now which. protect the han. member if he enters into such an agreement and there is a breach of that agreement. He has his remedies in law. I believe that if two mature. adults, reasonable adults,enter into a contract, then I think that contract should lie binding. I believe. if that contract is broken, then the . pers ·on agai.nst whom the contract is broken should have his normal remedies in the courts of this Province, of this land. 6 2 'i 9

June 9, 1981 Tape 2299 EC - 1 MR. THOMS: But what are we doing now in our legislation? It is not the first time it has come up. What are we doing? We are saying to two individuals, we are saying to a landlord and we are saying to a tenant, 'We do not care about the contract you have entered into. We are not going to recognize the lease.' And this is what is happening here. It says, 'or the landlord refuses to renew their leases at or about the same time.' Now, I happen to believe - and I am a tenant, I have entered into a lease. I expect to have to abide by the terms and conditions in the lease.

I do not expect the government of this Province to protect me, and I darn well, ~tr. Speaker, do not want the government of this Province to protect me. And this again is what we find here. I cannot agree with it. I think it is coming to the point where an individual will not be able to do anything. I mean, we find, Mr. Speaker, our rights, our sacred rights in this Province in lots of cases - the Premier is very fond of talking about sacred rights. But I was absolutely amazed. I went a couple of days ago to pick up a salmon licence, a sports salmon licence.

I can remember one time, as an ordinary resident of this Province, I could go on a river and catch a salmon without having to pay any fee. Last year for a family salmon licence in this Province I paid $7.50. Two or three days ago, Mr. Speaker, I had to pay $15.00. Ithas gone up 100 per cent since the salmon struck in last year. And today we hear from the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) there is an amendment coming in to the Registration of Deeds Act. Mr. Speaker, we have the highest registration fees anywhere in Canada with the exception of Ontario.

Again, the ordinary person in this Province is getting banged, whacked, whipped every time he turns around. You can register a deed in Nova Scotia for $4 or $5. That same deed here, it would be possible that it 6220

June 9, 1981 Tape 2299 EC - 2 MR. THOMS : would cost you $1 ,500 . Our registration fees go from $5 .50 for the registration of a document where the purchase price is less than $500, up to $1,500 . And now there is going to be legislation brought in to increase those fees. An average three bedroom bungaloH in the city of St . John's costs probably 570,000 . In order to register the deed in this Province , Mr . Speaker - and now, a $70,000 hou se as a home is being purchased by the middle income family . I mean , the person who is making $10,000 or $15,000, Itt . Speaker, can forget about owning a home .

Unless he wants to go out on Red Island where they have resettled and there is nobody living there any longer and he wants to purchase one of the homes that are left out there, then if he is making $10 ,000 or 515,000 a year there is no way that he can own a home in this Province. The $70,000 house in St . John's today is a no~~l 1,000 square foot, three bedroom bungalow. 622 1

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 23QQ ~ill - 1 MR. THOMS: That is all it is, Mr. Speaker. And the person- the family with an income of $20,000 or $25,QOO a year, they are beginning to feel the pinch. They are not going to be aole to afford these houses once the term runs out on their mortgage today. But in order for you to purchase a $70,000 house, with, let us say, a $50,000 mortgage on that house, the government of this Province soaks that person $144.50 plus $104.50. You know what it costs, Mr. Speaker, to ,have those documents registered down on the ground floor of this building? You know what it costs? $249.00.

And all they are doing is recording. And now we hear today that this government is going to bring in legislation in this session of the House to raise that $249. I do not know by how much,but I would suspect that when this legislation is passed the homebuyer will be paying about $300 just to have his deed deposited with the Registry of Deeds, photocopied and sent back to him. Mr. Speaker, it is gouging that is what it is. And when governments start gouging people then it is time that we stopped and took a look at it. Because that is exactly what is happening. Mr.

Speaker, at one time and still is, it was possible to have a deed to your house and not register it. Most laymen are confused with what registration does. Registration does not effect title whatsoever. What it does is puts third parties on caution ,on warning. But now with people buying homes, and securing loans with mortgages, they are compelled to register their documents. So this $249 is not paid by choice, ~yare forced to do it by the mortgage companies. And we, Mr. Speaker, are now going to start gouging these people for more.

We already have, with the possible exception of Ontario, the highest registration rates in the country. AN RON. MEMBER: That is not relevant. 6222

June 9, 19.81 Tape No . 23 O.G. NM - 2 MR . THOl'!S: It is relevant. It is relevant to the people of this Province \-ltx:> cannot afford $249, or $30.0.. It is relevant to them . It is relavant to the people who call me . I mean,that is a full month 's welfare payment in this Province . !'!; ~s relevant to people who cannot afford it . It is not relevant to highly~ paid surveyors in 'tiii.s Province , highly paid surveyors . It may not be relevant to the member for Kilbride (Mr. Ayhrard l. . It may not be relevant to him . AN HON. ME1-1BER: lvell said. Nell said . MR .

THOMS: But it is certainly relevant to those who have to pay it . But, ~tt . Speaker, here again, if I can get back - I did digress just a little but I thi.nk it has got to be said . And r th.L11.k. we have got t o start thinking about the ordinary people, and maybe - th~re are people who ask me what the differe.rtce is between a Liberal and a Tory , and maybe it is, it is because we are concerned. A Liberal i s con·cerned with t.'1e o rd inary people, wi t..'l the ordinary people. 6223

June 9, 1981 Tape -No. 2301 DW - l MR. L. THOMS: And every time legislation come~ before this House, comes before this House that gouges the ordinary people of this Province,it convinces me more and more, it tells me more and more why I am a Liberal and I am not a Tory. Because a Liberal would not be raising the registration fees in this Province, certainl•.• no admini­ stration of which I was a part. MR. STAGG: I have never been part of an administration. MR. L.

THOMS: No, but you are part of an administration now which is gouging an awful lot of your clients and an awful lot of your constituents and I will not hear your voice raised against it. I will not hear a voice on the other side of this House raised against it and silence means consent. If you do not speak out against it,then you are for the gouging that is going on. MR. F . . STAGG: MR. L. THOMS: (Inaudible) gouginq you. You are right. Mr. Speaker, if I can get back.

The point that I am trying to make is this: that I believe that if two individuals enter into a contract - in this case,the contract in the commercial world is called a lease - they should be bound by the terms and conditions of the lease. Why? I am not against the small person, no. I just happen to have a greater faith in the people than you do.I do not believe that the people have to be protected against themselves. AN HON. MEMBER: (.Inaudible) . , MR. L. THOMS: Yes, and we are giving it to them. We are giving it to them, t.;hich I support. I support!

I support this particular piece of legislation that is going to prevent - okay ? - somebody from giving group evictions so they can circumvent the La~dloidand Tenant Act. Okay, I am for that! 6224

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2301 DW - 2 MR. L. THOMS: What I am against is the audacity - okay? - for governments to believe that in all cases they know what is best for the individual. You have a commercial lease; you are bound by the terms and conditions of that commerc~al lease. There is no provision here to have statu­ tory conditions affecting commercial leases. But what this legislation - it is an insult to the people -·what it is saying is- M' HON. MEMBER: The people asked for it. MR. L. THOMS: No, they did not ask for it. Nor Regency Towers did not ask for it, they asked for the first part of this.

You see , you have not read the amendment! That is the problem, you have not read the amendment'. They asked for the first part. I asked for the first part and I believe that people in these circumstances have to have stat­ utory protection. But we can go too far.And this is what this Act does , this is what this particular

section does, it goes too far! It also says 'I am not just going to protect you from group evictions, but I am going to say to you that you are not smart enough, you are not bright enough, you need the protection of the administration to save you from the other person you enter into a lease with.' And I resent that! I resent it! I resent it because this legislation affects me, it affects hon. members on the other side. This legislation says that the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) is not com­ petent to enter into a lease with a landlord. It says that the member for St. John's Centre (Dr.

McNicholas) is not competent to enter into a lease with a landlord. It says that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) is. not competent to enter into a lease with a landlord. If I have a lease for a year on the minister's house,when 6225

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2301 DW - 3 t-1R. L. THOMS: that contract runs out the minister should be able to get possession. The contract is 6226

June 9,1981 MR. THOMS: had - MR. OTTENHEIMER: refuses MR. THOMS: Tape No. 2302 AH-1 for a year. I mean,supposing I If there are twenty and the landlord It does not say that here. It does not say if there are twenty. Okay? MR. HANCOCK: In the new one it does . MR. TOMS: It does not say if there are twenty in the new one, it just says leases. But, Mr. Speaker, that is something that is concerning- it is a concern to me how governments are encroaching.

It seems to me,with every piece of legislation broug~into the House,that we are encroaching on individual freedoms and it is time that we stopped and said,'we are not going to protect you from yourselves, we are going to let you protect yourselves.' There are lots of people who believe ~nd,as I said before,I have not made up my mind yet, but there are lots of people who believe that if a person is foolish enough to go out on the Trans-Canada and not use his safety belt and he gets killed, that should be his prerogative, that should be his right and it should not be taken away from him.

Now,the biggest problem I have in a right like that, Mr. Speaker, is the enforceability of the thing. But there,again,a right is going to be taken away. Here we see rights taken away. Every time we turn around in Newfoundland we see rights being taken away and rights,in some cases,being taken away because we just cannot afford, we just cannot afford to exercise the rights that permits give,because of the cost of them. Mr.

Speaker, I would like the minister to address himself and to more fully explain whether or not, under the definition of group evictions, whether or not somebody can get around it under this particular piece of legislation? Now,part (

b) of that says that 6227

June 9,1981 Tape No. 2302 AH-2 MR. THOMS: The circumstance where one or more tenants of a landlord receive notices to quit or the landlord refuses to renew their leases :• I think that is going to be of very little benefit really, very little benefit,because one person may not and,in most cases 1 would just resign himself to the fact that he cannot take on the big landlord. The Regency Towers matter got the attention ~of this administration because of the fact that there was a large number of them and there is force in numbers. Mr. Speaker, if I may go on,this legislation as well 1 in

Section 5, Subsection 3 of

Section 19 of the original act ,is amended and where the landlord or the tenant now intends to commence an action they should give the other party a written notice that they intend to commence an action at least five days before the action is commenced. I suppose this is to take the place of a lawyer's letter or a letter from somebody. If we write a letter now involving a collection or something '"here a 'Nrit could be issued against it,we will send somebody a letter giving him ten days notice that unless the account is paid up court action is going to be commenced.

But this five days - I fail to appreciate the real significance. This matter is now being transferred to the District eourt If I want to take an action today in the District ~curt against the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power), all I have to do 622B

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2303 so - 1 MR. THOMS: is to go down, have a statement of claim and a writ of summons and go down and file it i.n the court. I do not have to give them any tive day notice, I do not have to give them five minutes notice, I do not have to give them five seconds notice, I just go ahead and do it. This particular

section is a deviation from the normal practice before the District Court. I assume now that in my office downtown I will have a stereo­ type form and if we aregoing to take an action against some­ body, that I will just fill in the blanks and send it off and where I would normally give ten days,because that is the normal practice in practicing law in this Province, I will now give five because that is all this act requires, I do not think it should be there at all.

I do not think it means anything unless you are going to amend the District Court Act and the laws of this Province so that five days notice has to be given before any action is taken in the court. Why this particular one is singled out, I do not know. Mr. Speaker, Sec~ion 20 of the amendment is a welcome addition - MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is not

Section 20. It is not

Section 20. MR. THOMS: Yes, I am referring to the 'setting of rents' - okay? - the factors to be considered. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Oh, yes, sub. 20. Right. MR. THOMS: Yes. - is a welcome addition to the legislation covering landlord and tenant in this Province. Under the amendrnent,and it reads thusly: "In setting the rent to be charged for residential premises, a board' - which is the Residential Tenancies Board- 'shall take into account the following factors: (

a) a fair and equitable return on investment; (

b) the current fair market value; (

c) all reasonable operating expenses; and (

d) the quality of life 6229

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2303 SD - 2 MR. THOMS: and shelter, and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, such other matters as the court may dec·ide". That, Mr. Speaker, is essentially the decision of the Supreme Court of this Province in a judgment handed down my Mr. Justice Noel Goodridge, a decision that was supposed to be followed by the Landlord and Tenancies Board in their hearings. And I believe that all landlords welcome the fact that this is now incorporated in the landlord and tenancy law so that the board will have no choice but to take these factors into consideration.

And there was a tendency to ignore this particular judgement but it is good to see that the minister has included this in this revised amendment to the act. Mr. Speaker, I noted with interest the answer given by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) a few days ago in the House in which he answered a question from my friend for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) as to how much the Chairman of the Landlord and Tenancies Board will be paid. And we find that the Chairman of the Landlord and Tenancies Board is being paid the sum of $15,000 a year, $1,250 a month, $15,000 a year. Mr.

Speaker, I just want to make sure we understand that this $15,000 is paid to the Chairman of the Board whether he sits or not. MR. CARTER: Who is the Chairman now? MR. THOMS: The Chairman now is Mr. Puddester. The newly appointed Chairman is Mr. Puddester, a lawyer 6230

../ June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2304 EC - 1 MR. THOMS: practicing here in St. John's who is a good choice for that position. He has acted as solicitor to the board for a number of years now and through that position knows the working of the board. But he is getting paid the sum of $15,000 a year. Now, this is not an .ordinary retainer, Mr. Speaker. If I were lucky enough to receive a retainer of $15,000 a year in the practice of law, that would mean that the first 300 hours or so that I put in working on behalf of that client would be taken out of that $15,000.

But in this case it is not a retainer in that sense, because he gets $15,000 over and above. He gets $200 per day for every day he sits in addition to the $15,000. Now, if he sits as much as the former Chairman of the Board sat, then there is going to be $30,000 or $40,000 a year to be paid to the Chairman of the Board. MR. TULK: And no money for water and sewer projects. MR. THOMS: And that is a good client, Mr. Speaker. There are not many of us who have very many clients who pay us $30,000 or $40,000 a year in legal fees. So that is a good client.

But I just wanted to point out, in case there is some misunderstanding from the answer that was tabled by the minister, lest there be some misunderstanding, that it is more than $15,000 a year, and the $15,000 a year is - I do not know what you would call it - a bonus? I suppose you could call it a bonus, Mr. Speaker, because he will presumably earn the $200 a day or some portion thereof when he is sitting. So I can only assume that the ?15,000 i:.s a Bonus. Not a bad bonus. There are not too many baby bonuses in this Province - we would not be able to give that much in baby bonus. 6 2 3 •j

June. 9,1981 Tape No. 2304: EC - 2 MR . THOMS; ~lell, z.Ir. Speaker, one of the proble!lls in the past, and again I hope the minister is listening, bas been - and ~~s is wny I questioned the minister when he announced Mr. Puddister's appointment, because we now have a part-time Chairman of the Landlord and Tenants Board. I questioned the minister on that and he did not think, but one of the problems has been the fact that the chairman - and I hope the new Chief Electoral Officer is not going to hold against me wb .at I am trying to say here . I am not trying to be offensive.

I would not want to think that somewhere along the line my registration fee or deposit fee or whatever it is we pay before an eleccion should get lost somewhere and I would be disqualified. I '"'ould hate to think something like that would happen. :...~ fiON. ~!E.'I.BER: The nomination fee . :-rn.. THOMS: That is it, nomination fee . AN HON. t-ID'I.BER: The one that I did not lose. MR. THOMS: Yes . Now , one of the problems was that the ;;>revious chairman was n.ot prepared to delegate responsibilities under the act, that he insisted on hearing every dispute that came before the board himself . 6232

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2305 NM - 1 MR. THOMS: No rpatter how piddling or how small ! or how big, the chairman had to hear himself. Now,thls is one problem with the fact that a chairman, apart from the $15,0 .00 a year, is being paid $200 a sitting. Because that is an incentive for a chairman to hear everyt~ng h£mself. It is a very important point I am making, Mr. Speaker. I hope the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer} is listening. I would rather see a chairman being paid $15,00.0 or $20,000 as a flat fee. Because the $200 a day is an incentive. And I am not talking about this particular chairman.

But it is an incentive for a chairman, it is an incentive for him to hear and to sit and to hear all disputes coming before the board. But the Minister of Justice fully realizes that the Chairman of the Board does not have to hear all disputes. Under the present legislation, and I refer to the Landlord and Tenancies Act, an amendment that went through on February 22 nd., 1977, where section (3) of the original act was repealed and it was provided this way, "The Lieutenant-Governor in Council may appoint a Director of Landlord and Tenant relationships.

(2) The Director shall mediate disputes between landlords and tenants, inf'Jrm landlord and tenants of provisions of the act 1 ' and so on. Now what happened, Mr. Speaker, was that the former chairman of the BOard would not delegate, would not permit the director, who is a fine individual, Clyde Bradbury, a fine individual, qualified, comp~tent, to settle many of the disputes that came before the Board. And I would like to see, if it has not already been done, a - I will call it a reminder. [ do not want something going to the chairman, Mr.

Speaker, that the Minister of Labour sent to the Chairman of the Labour Relations Board. I do not want that type of interference at all. 3ut the provisions of this amendment where the director is given the authority to mediate disputes 1 this should mean that the 6233

\l.une 9, 198l Tapa No . 2305 11l~1 - 2 MR . THOMS: board will not nave to meet to mediate disputes as often as they did under the previous chaizman. But the fact that the chairman is paid $200 a day, apart from the $15,000 a year, is an incentive for the chairman to have meetings and to listen to all disputes no matter how small. Okay? And it a.lso is an incentive to members of ·the board . Members of the board get paid . For every tL~e they sit, they get paid .

So any dispute that is not taken and mediated by the dire~tor means that the members of the Landlord and Tenancies Board can sit, hear the dispute,no matter haw small it is, and get paid . So there is an incentive the re for the board to hear disputes instead of the director. I doubt if the director has heard ~~Y d isputes since that amendment came in February 22nd . , 19.77. Because he 6234

June 9, 1981 'rape 2306 PK - 1 MR. THOMS: was not permitted. And I sincerely hope that the new Chairman of the Labour Relations Board and the Board permit the Director to hear these disputes. And the amendment does not say that the Director may mediate disputes between landlords and tenants, it says that the Director shall mediate disputes between landlords and tenants. But who in the past has been mediating the disputes? Not the Director, Mr. Speaker, not the Director - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

THOMS: Okay,not the Director who is paid a set salary, but they are being mediated by the Board, by the Landlord and Tenancies Board. And why are they being mediated by the Landlord and Tenancies Board? :Se.cuase every time they sit they get paid. So there is that very strong incentive called money. It is called money. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) might know what I am talking about. For the Board and the Chairman,_ I do not know what the Board members are paid these days, Mr. Speaker 1 but the Chairman, as we know 1is paid $200. Apart from the bonus of $15,000, he is paid $200 a day.

And that is a good incentive. I can tell the minister this,that there are very few lawyers in this town today making $200 a day. So that if I were a lawyer practising in the city of St. John's and I had the Chairma.nship of the Landlord and Tenancies Board, and I had $15,000 - I cannot say retainer because it is not a re.tainer it is a $15,000 bonus.-and I was getting paid $200 a day to sit and hear disputes between landlords and tenants, and we have thousands and thousands and thousands of tenants, and I do not doubt that we have thousands of landlords in this town, he does not need any other practice.

That is enough for him. So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to see 6235

June 9, 1981 Tape 2306 PK - 2 HR . THOt-15: directions give n by the mini ster to the Chairman, if they have not already been given, if they bave not already been disaussed ,to give to the Director of the Landlord and Tenancies Board the,..,. not give ,it te him. he has already got it. · What ! am saying is the Chairman of the Board permits the Director to do what he is compelled to do under the act . Because this is not permissive legislation, it is directiva, rt says, 'the Director shall mediate disputes'. Lt doas not say 'th·e Director may mediate disputes' .

But as I said, it is one o£ the 9roblerns 3.nd it is going t .o be a bigger !?roblem now with a lawyer •.vith a busy practice as Chairman of the Board. unless the Chairman decides that he is going to make greater use o£ his director . Mr ·. Speaker, there are. so many things; 6236

May 9, 1981, Tape 2307, ?age~-- aph MR. THOMS: the whole Landlord and Tenancies Act should be given a thorough goLng over. There are a nurnne.r of thLngs that are still out­ standing that should be -looked at. Unfortunately my hour is runnLng out and I am soon going to have to s.it down. We support what this legislation is doLng. Nobody, no landlord should have the r.ight to order mass evicti.ons, group evicti.ons to avoid having to appear before the Residential Tenancies Board.

I hope that some of the things - I hope that with this particular piece of legislation landlords will not be able to squirm around it; and if they do, I think the. minister should immediately again move to block any loopholes that might appear. Becaus.e you can rest assured, Mr. Speaker, that this piece of legislation w.ill be in the . hands of the . landlords. It is probably in the hands of the landlords now. And they have their lawyers down­ town - MR. OTTENHE IMER: Some of tfiem are. MR. THOMS: If I may just clue up with consent, Mr.

Speaker - who are now looking for ways to avoid this particular piece of legislation we have now. You can rest assured that the landlords have their lawyers looking at this legislation trying to find some way to beat it. r do not blame them for that. 3ut for what this bill does, and for what it is attemptLng to cure ., we support it 100 per cent. I have not had an opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to speak to the rest of my caucus, but I hope they will follow my lead in this and vote in support of the bill. I would just like to say that I would like to see less and less infringements, as 6237

• June 9, 1~8l, Tape 2307, Page 2 -- apb MR. THOMS: I pointed out. If thLs bill does not do the job, then I hope to see an immediate amendment that will. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): The han. the. member for Carbonear. MR. MOORES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just have a few remarks to mak2 on this piece of legLslation. Mr. Speaker, my opinion, personal opinLon is that I consider this to he good, solid legislati.on. The principle of the bill, the intent of the bill, in my opinion, is acceptable.

For too long now the landlords 1 particularl~ . in this Province -and from my experiences with landlord and tenant relationships as a ~ernher of the House, I can say quite conclusively that in 90 per cent of the cases where there are any disputes involved, the landlord is usually the culprit. The landlord is either the culprit in actually initiating a non-concurrence, or a non- compliance with the act, or he is a culprit in that he is trying to manipulate the act and abusing the privileges of a tenant.

And I have had the unpleasant experience,maybe a dozen times in the last three or four years, to represent tenants who are constituents of mine in disputes with landlords, and in every case without exception, the landlord was at fault by a violation of this act, by abusing the privileges of a tenant, and by ignoring the human rights of a tenant 1 just simply not concerned with anything but money and his own cause, whether it was the protection of his property, or the protection of the rental payment. And this piece of legislation, in one respect, in that it deals with mass evictions, 6 2 ,j 8

June 9., 198~, Tape 2307, Page. 3 - ape MR. MOORES: group eviction~, is good legi~lation. It should never be permitted in thi.s Province for any one person, not only in landlord/ tenant relationshi.ps, but in any aspect of life, it should not be permissible for one person to arbitrarily affect the lives 6239

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2308 DW - 1 MR. R, MOORES: of many, particularly adversely. And this legislation, I would hope, will prevent certain unscrupu­ lous landlords in this city and in this Province, from abusing people by kicking them out on the street for their own purposes and furthering the continued lining of their pockets. Now having said that, Mr. Speaker, there are some short-comings of landlord/tenant relationships in this Province. I had a lady in Carbonear just last year; she had been renting a two bedroom apartment from a landlord.

The Department of Social Services was paying her rent, all of it in this case, and the Department of Social Services failed to pay that rent. And because of a complication of factors,the rent was not paid, it went a month in arrears. Without any further discussion whatever, the land­ lord served a notice to quit through his lawyer. And I called the Director of the Landlord Tenancies Board and he said, 'Boy, you have to put this complaint in writing'~ And I said, 'It will take three days for the letter to get from Carbonear to St.

John's and it will take you another three days to act on it,if you act on it at all 1and then it will take another three days for the letter to get from St. John's to Carbonear.

And if,and only if,the decision of your mediation is in favour of my constituent,will I then be able to convey that decision to the landlord or to the police or to a magistrate and have the notice to quit dissolved'. 'Now', I said, 'in the meantime what does a lady on social assistance with five youngsters, what does she do in ten or twelve days while Y?_U bureaucrats are working through your red tape ?' Now, there is no provision in existing legislation to deal with a matter of this nature, none whatever!

If the landlord in the case of my constituent was found 1 and in fact was found, to be violating the Act, what action or penalty was taken against him? None! There was a ,, 2 ~.,. n 0 ...

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2308 DW - 2 :1R. R. :100R£S : reversa l of the notice to quit but there was no penal;y aqainst him. ae did not have to pay punitive d&~ages to my constituent, to the tenant who was adversely affected. He did not have to pay for her rent or her losses or the inconvenience or the trouble caused to the children in the ten or twelve day period. He got off Scot free ! Scot free is how he got off!

And he smiled at me when I said to him, 'B~y, look do you have any remorse about this? 00 you get a kick out of placing adverse situations like ·this before people who can- not con£ront you?' And he smiled because in this case the landlord was a lawyer, a member of the Bar of this Province, a man who should have had better sense than to manipula1:e ~~e legislation, the Landlord Tenancies legislation . But he did no1: have any better sense.

So I threatened at that time. in no uncertain terms ,that if he did not make some restitution to my constituent ,that I would t~~e it before the Law Society, ~~en I would go public with it. I said, 'I will have a go at you one way or ano~~er' . And after a couple of days thinking about it he did make some resti- tution, I believe he deducted a few dollars from her rent , which ~~e Depa~~ent of Social Services paid anyway and they would not give it to her. So she did not gee any financial restitution of any sort . Now, Mr. Speaker, ~~ere are a n~~er - I would not want anyone in this 62 4 '1

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2309 SD - l MR. MOORES: House to misconstrue what I am saying. On either side of this House there should be no one directly or indirectly opposed to this legislation today. But that is not the point, ~f the government,through the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer), can bring forth amendments to legislation of this nature within a few days or a week, then there is no reason why he cannot bring in substantive amendments to deal with things which we have been bringing up in this House virtually for years now that landlords have been getting away with, Ear example, last year I got up in this House and I spoke for a full half hour on a bill that would change the method of taxation in the City of St.

John's from the rental system to the property tax system and for almost fifteen minutes in that speech I emphasized that there will be literally hundreds of thousands of dollars that will go into the coffers of landlords in this Province by a change from the rental system to the property tax system, hundreds of thousands of dollars. And is it going to go back to the tenants where it should go?

Will the reduction in taxation,which in effect should be a reduction in rent,be afforded the tenants of this Province, particularly with some of these major rental people like the Omega, the Dobbin Enterprise and Garland Clarke and a few of these people who have hundreds and hundreds of apartments throughout the city and who are our major landlords in this Province? Hundreds of thousands - you wond~r why these people live in big houses and go off to the Bahamas and Florida,3ure with a windfall tax rip-off like that. which is aided and abetted by this government - MR.

HAL'JCOCK: It is a wonder they come back home at all. MR. MOORES: - it is a wonder they come back home at all. Why should they when they have the government to care for their investment and care for their profits( And the 6? 4 •J - • f_

June. 9, 1981 Tape No. 2309 RA - 2 MR. MOORES: Premier then talks about good, honest gover!UT\ent for the ordinary Newfoundlander. Most tenants in this Province., ninety-nine per cent of the tenants in this Province are just ordinary Newfoundlanders, many of them on fixed income like social assistance recipients. And while we are on that topic, Mr. Speaker, of social assist­ ance recipients, ~ight now the major slum landlord in this Province. is the Department of Social Services.

If you saw some of the apartments that are rented out to the Department of Social Services,for social assistance recipients in this Province, Mr. Speaker, you .would hang your head. I h.ave been in them where there were no floors, no toilet and washing facilities, outhouses. MR. HANCOCK: No stove. MR. MOORES; And the cry of the Department of Social Services is 'Boy ,what can you do. There. is nothing available. li'Te rely upon private. developers to provide the apartments, the rentals'. And now the. new policy: Just last night, Mr.

Speaker, talking about landlord/tenant relations and the Department of Social Services as one of the major landlords in this Province, one of the major slum landlords, just last night I had an opportunity to interview a young girl from Carbonear, an unwed mother with two children . She had a dispute with her landlord and her landlord tossed her out into the street.

She found another place to live,and when she went back to the Department of Social Services to get rent to pay for the new place that she found, they said, 'I am sorry, but the policy of the Department of Social Services has changed, we no longer provide rent for unwed mothers.' And you talk about landlords in this Province. It is alright that we in­ troduced legislation to deal with private landlords 1 but how about some legislation to deal with public landlords such as the government of this Province and how they acquiesce, how they refuse on hundreds of occasions to apply the pro- visions of landlord 6243

June 9,1981 Tape No. 2310 AH-1 MR. MOORES: tenancies relationships in this Province, how they pay rent to landlords, landlords who have premises and accomodations not fit to live in and the social workers and the officials of the Department of Social Services turn their heads, they look askance and pretend that they never saw the conditions and that there is nothing they can do about it? And now I hear the City of St. John's is going to get into private housing. The City of St. John's,by the way,if nobody sees the irony of that, the City of St. John's is a corporate body, an animal of this Legislature.

It is accountable to the Province of Newfoundland through the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook} . It cannot borrow and should not borrow without the approval of our government and now I understand they are getting into private housing. How come the Province, how come the Department of Social Services cannot get into private housing and borrow $20 million or $30 million and provide the appropriate and proper accomodations for social assistance recipients, rather than acquiescence, and slum landlordism? I say, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheirner} can bring in amendments to this legislation quickly for people in St. John's MR. OTTENHEIMER: (Inaudible}. MR. MOORES: Of course,but it was initiated by a condition that existed at Regency Towers, is that correct? MR. OTTENHEIMER: (Inaudible} . MR. MOORES: Of course. And I am saying to you that the number involved in slum landlordism, the social assistance recipients, is a greater number, I tell you, than Regency Towers. I think you should bring in controls on your own government, on your own colleague in the Departrnent.of Social Services. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I can never find him. 6 2 4 L,

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2310 IB-2 MR. HANCOCK: Watch it now you are not in a very good mood today,you might punch him out again. MR. MOORES: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not - as one of my colleagues said,this legislation does not go far enough and it certainly has the potential to go a lot further. Now,there were comments made this afternooc, if I recall, about the idea of contract law and how a lease, how an agreement between a landlord and a tenant should supersede the conditions of the Landlord Tenancies Act. Now ,I tell you,Mr.

Speaker, I do not care who said it, whether it was on that side or this side, that if the day comes when any agreement, any lease between a landlord and tenant can supersede the provisions of the Landlord Tenancies Act, then that is the day that I am going to have to reconsider my position in this party. Because there is no doubt about it - I recall last year when I was renting a house from one of the mucky-mucks here in St. John's, he had me sign a lease.':pon my word of God.it was a half an inch thick. There were at least six or seven typewritten pages and I needed the house quickly.

I did not have time to fool around, I had to come in here to the House of Assembly and I had to sign the lease quickly and get on with it. And I signed the lease and then I took it immediately and threw it in the garbage, because my lease is the Landlord Tenancies Act. My lease is the Landlord Tenancies Act and I do not care what landlord wants to protect what or how he wants to protect his interests.As long as my interests are protected in this Act, then this Act should be supra~e in landlord tenant reLationships. And I tell you that the Landlord Tenancies Act in this Province is a good act in that respect.

It changed completely, it reversed completely the role of the landlord and the tenant from what it was a few years ago when they could 6 2 4.5

June 9, 1981 Tape 2311 EC - 1 MR. MOORES: get away with murder, literally murder almost and abuse of tenants, to a situation right now where the tenant's rights and privileges are protected by legislation, protected in law. And it does not matter now what a landlord wants to say in his lease or what he wants to protect because notwithstanding, this act is supreme. That is the way it should be and I am glad to see that that is the way it is, notwithstanding comments to the contrary. I am not quite happy, Mr. Speaker, with the

section of the act which deals with'where 50 per cent or more of the tenants of a landlord receive notices to quit'. I am not quite happy with that, I think it should be lower. I think it should be maybe 20 per cent, some figure that would represent better an attempt by the landlord to do indirectly what he cannot do directly. And sections (

a) and (

b) do not necessarily cover one or the other.

Section (

b) deals only­ where it can be proven by a District Court'Judge that that is what the intent of the landlord is. What I am suggesting is that the arbitrary figure of 50 per cent be lowered to 20 per cent, because 50 per cent is quite a - you know, 49 per cent is not 50 per cent, and this legislation says SO per cent. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Judicial discretion then. MR.

MOORES: Yes, and I am not so sure that the minister might not want to just have another look at that and see if he cannot compromise a little with these positive, concrete criticisms of this legislation, meaningful, well­ intentioned criticism that is meant to further protect the interests of the tenantsand/or to a lesser degree, the landlords in this Province. Now, the other important criticism that I wanted to make of this legislation,in fact gets right 6246 -:

June 9, 1981 Tape 2311 EC - 2 MR. MOORES: to the heart of the principle of landlord/tenant legislation itself.

When the Landlord/Tenancies Act, by another name, was introduced in this House, the intention of the legislat~on was to provide the tenant, particularly, who in many cases cannot afford to fight something in a court of law, to hire a lawyer and to fight-what could be a legal battle for weeks or months, who could not afford to do that, the Landlord/Tenancies Act established a board, and that tenant could go to that board for virtually nothing, a small fee maybe - no, I do not even believe there is a small fee involved except the price of paper and a stamp. - and he could bring a matter before the board and he could appear before that board himself and argue his case.

I have been at some of these board hearings myself, and some people who go to these boards can darn well argue and are very well versed and very well learned about landlord/tenant legislation, etc. Now, what we see here is a tenant, any individual tenant affected by a group eviction must go to a district court, he has no choice.

Now, once you enter a court as opposed to a quasi-judicial committee or board or group of individuals, you enter into the formality of law, the formality of a courtroom, and unless you know law or you have been trained in law, you inevitably will end up making a fool of yourself in the formality of it. So now a tenant affected by this legislation must hire a lawyer or must make a fool of himself, one or the other. And now, any appearance by a lawyer in a court these days 6247

June 9, 1981 Tape 2312 PK- 1 MR. MOORES : is a minimum of $200, If he never looks even sideways at you, he is going to charge you a minimum of $200. And many of them see the person coming to them as ripe for the killing and it goes up as $300 or $40.Q or $5Q_Q depending upon the delays involved, depending upon the ' adjournments, and the whole thing becomes a very expens .i.ve confrontation.

So what this legislation has done, either because it could not do otherwise or because they nave not been able to do otherwise to date,is take a very fair, inexpensive method of dealing with a complaint of a landlord and tenant and they have turned it into a legal rigmarole that will cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars, And what tenant who is living from hand to mouth. just barely paying the rent every month, what tenant can afford it?

It would be so easy for the government of this Province who shares 50/50 the Legal Aid in this Province- around 50/50 is the cost sharing factor of Legal Aid -:;:o ·send a directive as a result of this, to send a di.rective to the Legal Aid people and say,' As a result of this you can now include, only where though there is insufficient - MR • Q'T'TENHEIMER: (_Inaudible) . MR. MOORES: Right.

And my understanding of the formula that they used for that is like the Attachment Bill that ~e brought in the other day, slightly out of touch witfi the times, slightly out of tune with the needs, the economic needs of the people. I had occasion last year to take a young lady in a divorce proceeding and it ended with my talking to the Director of Legal Aid about a matter 6248 ""

June 9. , 19 81 Tape 2312 PK - 2 MR. MOORES: which I did not want to talk to him about to begin with. I told him in no uncertain terms that I thought the formula which he was using was absurd. It was not designed to apply itself to the particular circumstances of an applicant. It had very confined, inflexible ways of dealing with people who, in many cases, could not afford to hire a lawyer, could not afford to give a percentage of their income to pay for that lawyer. And do you know somethinq, talking about Legal Aid now, I do not think that was ever the intent of Legal Aid to enter into this formula racket.

The intent was to establish whether a person could afford or not afford to pay for a lawyer and if they could not afford,then the lawyer was provided for them. Now you have 10 per cent, 20 per cent, 30 per cent and so on, and in many cases it is an arbitrary decision made by the Director of Legal Aid based upon incomplete, improperly supplied information by the applicant himself who does not know what to include, who does not know what not to include. Because, for instance, gross salary is not net salary etc. etc. Mr. Speaker, I hope myself that the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheirner) will take our criticisms, ~£ Opposition's criticisms to heart. There have been no harsh words from this side today. We have been very ~ and complimentary. We have established unequivocally that ~e legislation,that the intent of the minister is good, is positive,And we have gone on to add that there are certain other steps that the minister should take in this legislation to improve it. ~nd we have been saying some of them for years, quite frankly, not just today~ I have been talking about some of them since 1973 or 1974, 1975. And I hope, Mr.

Speaker, that the minister will take this session of constructive 6249

June 9, 19"81 Tape 2.312. PK..,. 3 MR. MOORES : criticism to heart and undertake- certain. actions according to. Thank you. SOME RON. MEMRERS: Ke-ar , hear ! -. 6250

June 9, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. Tape No. 2313 GS - l The hon. member for LaPoile. Hear, hear! What a crowd of cheerleaders, Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to congratulate the member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores) on an excellent speech. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HOUSE: MR. NEARY: the Queen's English. MR. HOUSE: HR. NEARY: It was a brilliant, brilliant speech . Hear, hear! (Inaudible). The hon. gentleman is master of I beg your pardon? What is the - (Inaudible) rambling. Too bad. You know, Mr.

Speaker, if I~ the hon. gentleman 1I would go out and try to remedy the nursing shortage in this Province which is causing all kinds of problems - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. NEARY: - causing all kinds of problems for the sick and the handicapped in this Province. If I werethe hon. gentleman,now,I would not be snarky over there at all and I would not allow the bureaucrats to dictate to me. I would take the bull by the horns and try to do something about that. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 18. MR. NEARY: Order, please! \'l"e are on Mr.

Speaker, I just want to again congratulate my colleague on an excellent speech and I also want to say, Mr~ Speaker, that the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) switched his plans, changed his strategy. As hon. members know, the procedure that is being used in the House,since the House started sitting this year,was on 62:51 ·.

June 9, 1981 Tape No. 2313 GS - 2 MR. NEARY: Monday and Tuesday there would be the Throne Speech debate, there would be the Budget debate and there would be Estimates and the Concurrence debates. That is what we were told by the Government ?ouse Leader, and on Wednesday we would have Private Members' Day and on Thursday and Friday,legislation. And that is the procedure that we have been following, so - MR. HANCOCK: MR. NEARY: They announced that procedure. That is right and I heard the President of the Council, the member for St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall), on the airwaves bragging and boasting about the fact that this was going to be one of the most important sessions of the House of Assembly since Confederation and then told·us why, told us why-and the Premier 'was on too about it. It is the House Leader now who organizes the business of the House, the strategy in the House, but the House Leader told the people of this Province that on Monday and Tuesday we would be doing the Throne Speech, we would be doing debates, we would be doing Estimates and the Concurrence debates and the Budget Speech. Then, today, they pulled another double-cross. MR.

HANCOCK: But he also said that Wednesday was the Opposition day. MR. NEARY: Yes, well, Wednesday in every other jurisdiction is Opposition day except in this House, where it alternates back and forth. In every other jurisdiction Private Members' Day is considered to be Opposition day. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, so the government pulled a double­ cross.

They changed the procedure and we find ourselves today, 'l'lhen we thought we were going to be debating the Concurrence debate, we find ourselves debating the bill, "An Act To Amend The Landlord and Tenant (Residential Tenancies 1 Act, 1973", But I want to say for the benefit of the Government 6252

June 9 , 19 81 Tape No . 2313 GS - 3 MR. NEARY : House Leader (Mr . Marshall), that he may spring it on us today and we do not know from minute to minute, from hour to hour, what we will be debating in this House, , but if the hon . gentleman thin.~s for a moment that it is going to speed up, that in some way in debating this bill today it is going to speed up the closing of the House , well, Mr. Speaker, he had better think again .. Beea\}se :~; have here in front of me now a schedule, the Bouse

schedule for this side of the House whereby the caucus is broken down into two groups - MR. HOOSE: MR . NEAR~: broken down rlliat has that got to do with the bill? It has all to do 1vith the bill - 6 2'53 ~

June 9, 1981 Tape 2314 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: in two groups, nine in each group, and half will be away and the other half will be here for the whole Summer, take us right up to the Fall and up to Christmas. MR. FLIGHT: the other half will be - AN HON. MEMBER: One half will be (inaudible) and vihat? MR. NEARY: That is right. And that is only just a start of the House schedule. This

schedule takes us up to July 3rd. MR. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): On a point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: The hon. member over there is waving some sort of document around. It could be anything. It could be his grocery list. But I do not think that -it has been carefillly established in this House as a precedent that you cannot quote from something without tabling it, so I call upon the hon. member to table that document. MR. NEARY: That is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the member for LaPoile.

MR. NEARY: In the first place, I did not quote from the document. But I will be glad to table the House

schedule tomorrow. But I did not quote from it so I do not have to table it. It is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Shall I be allowed to carry on with my few remarks? MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. As I under- stand it, it is an alleged

schedule for the Summer. Whether it was or not I do not know, so there is no need of tabling it at present. The hon. the member may go ahead. 62S4 -

June 9, 1981 Tape 2314 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the point being that the introduction of this bill today - and this is the second time now this pill has been brought back - MR. HOUSE: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Did the Minister of Health (Mr. House) want to say something? Mr. Speaker, the introduction of this bill will not speed up the closing of this House. Now, Mr. Speaker-, what about the bill? Well, as the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) indicated, this is the second time we have seen a bill in this House, a similar bill, this session.

The government withdrew the original bill and brought in a watered-down version. :-1R. HOUSE: They had to because of the court case. MR. NEARY: They did not have to, Mr. Speaker. It has nothing to do with a court case, it has to do, I fear, with the landlords on the government benches, with the lawyers on the government benches or their buddies downtown who are lanalords or who are practicing law. That is what it has to do with. I felt rather comfortable myself with the original bill, but I am sure that when my colleague, the member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thorns) pointed out the ramifications, the implications of that bill, that it did not take the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) very long to make a decision to withdraw the bill. MR. FLIGHT: He called a few of his buddies and said (inaudible) that is right. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, let nobody be under any illusions of why that bill was withdrawn and why we have this watered-down version of a bill to protect the tenants in the case of mass eviction - why we have this watered-down version before us today. 6255 ---:

June 9, 1981 Tape 2314 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, as good as this bill is, it is not going to do the job, it will. not do the trick, that the lawyers will find a way to get around this bill. I am inclined to agree with my colleague, the member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores) that it is a piece of good legislation as far as it goes but it does not go far enough. So I cannot condemn this piece of legislation, I can only commend the minister for bringing it in. MR. FLIGHT : But the House Leader (Mr. Marshall) cut the legs out from under him ·:.:hough on the first bill. MR. NEARY: That is right.

I can only compliment him for bringing in this bill and condemn him for allowing himself to be persuaded to change his mind, to withdraw the original bill, which I thought was quite adequate to take care of the situation. MR. FLIGHT: "lR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: not? MR. CARTER: ~.R. NEARY: Supreme Court? He =ved into the House Leader. Trev could not (inaudible) . Pardon? They could not (inaudible). They could not what? Why could they Because of the E'uprsre Court (inatrlible). What does it have to do with the Mr.

Speaker, I would gladly yield for the hon. gentleman to explain to me what it is he is talking about,provided I do not lose my opportunity to speak. Does the hon. gentleman want to get up and give me a lecture? MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! I would ask all members to address the Chair. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman wants to get up and have a few words and explain to us what 6256 ~

June 9, 1981 Tape 2314 EC - 4 MR. NEARY: he means by the Supreme Court decision, I would be very happy to take my seat for a few minutes to allow "him to make 6257

" June 9, 1981 Tap_e No. 2315 IB-1 MR. NEARY: his point and then I will carry on with my speech. Does the hon. ~entleman want to do that? HR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: MR. CARTER: persuade me. (Inaudible). I beg your pardon? It is no good in tryi"ng' to MR. NEARY: It is not a matter of persuading anybody, Mr. Speaker, I am curious and anxious to hear what the han. gentleman has to say on what I assume is a technical point, a legal point. MR. THOMS: It did not affect the principle of·the bill a bit, the point did not affect the orinciole of the bill. MR. NEARY: The fact of the matter is, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman is running a bluff. He does not know what he is talking about. And he has not got the courage to get up. He is afraid he might display his ignorance to this House and that is why the hon. gentleman will not take advantage of my invitation. The hon. gentleman is ignorant of the facts,as he usually is 1 and he does not know what he is talking about and he is afraid people might see how stupid he is. And so, Mr. Speaker, in one way, again,this is the kind of a bill that I welcome. But I am disappointed that it does not go far enough. And, ~-ir.

Speaker, I hope nobody in this Hou3e will ever make a statement that the Landlord and Tenancies Act in this Province is interfering with contracts that are made between individuals, between la