VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. THURSDAY, MAY 12, 1983 NO. 39

:_1t,/ May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2058 NM - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : PREMIER PECKFORD: Order, please! The han. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, if I may break the rules, I would like to present a cOpy of my book to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I thank the han. gentleman for presenting me with an autographed copy of his book. As I have already discussed with the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshali), I would like to take a few moments to recognize the publication of the Premier's first book. I think we would be very remiss in our duties, Mr. Speaker, today if we did not recognize the budding genius written all over the Premier's first footsteps down that long, glorious trail followed by so many famous literary giants whom we have seen in the House of Assembly. Now that the hon.

Premier has led the way with his first novel or short story or epistle or memoirs - whatever it is called - members on both sides of the House will have to seriously consider writing their own memoirs for the sake of recorded history. I have not quite made up my mind yet what title I am going to put on mine. Since the Premier uses the title Past is Present, I am thinking of call~ng mine something along the lines of Yes terday is Tomorrow, or Last Thursday is Next Monday, something equally as clear and as simple as the Premier's . title, Mr. Speaker. My memoirs, of course, like the han. the Premier's, 4387

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2058 NM - 2 MR. NEARY~ will of course be based on my own political career and growing up in my youth . I think it only fitting and proper that the hon. the Premier chose a Newfoundland publishing company to publish his first book in keeping with his local preference pol icy, 43 98

May 12,1983 Tape No. 2059 MR. NEARY: but I hope the Pr~mier, Mr. Speaker, will not be inclined to think me less a patriotic Newfoundlander when I reveal to him that I ah-1 am considering offers from such international publishers as Random House , MacLennan and Stewart and so on. These publishers , Mr. Speak~r, obviously fully aware of the enormous sales potential of my own biography,are the only agencies large enough to handle such a massive marketing and distribution problem that would be caused by the launching of my own literary career. And, Mr. Speaker,.

I do .hope that the han. the Premier will not consider me a copycat -either if I borrow his favourite artist to touch up my photograph to go along with my memoirs to try to make me look e~ually as intellectual as the han. gentleman does down at St. John's Airport. Mr. Speaker, if the Premier's book and the one that I am considering sell, then perhaps the Premier and I can move into 18 Portugal Cove Road where,along with Mr. Smallwood,we can pursue mutual writing adventures. I understand, Mr.

Speaker, that the 'Premier now is researching a screen play based on his life,sort of like Ghandi that is playing in the local theatres. I understand he is going to call it after a song made famous by Frank Sinatra entitled, They Did It My Way. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have a few suggestions for the Premier if he is seriously committed to his screen writing career. If he could rewrite Sophie's Choice to Leo's Choice, I thin~ ' that would be well receiyed. Rewrite Taps 1 the film ·about an American military academy,to Perhaps John Crosbie's decision to run for the PC leadership.

Othe r titles that the han. gentleman might consider, Mr. Speaker, could include the Four Eyed Beetles, The Case of the t~ssing 2,4-D 4399

May 12 ,1983 Tape No. 2059 ah-2 MR. NEARY : and Where Have All The Oil Rigs G6ne? Mr. Speaker, other members, of course, on the government benches need not be hung up on titles either . For instance,the Government House Leader (Hr . Han could very easy have a title available to him Willy The ~' the member for l-1ount Scio The Impossible Dream and , of course, the Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins) Pennies From Heaven. So , Mr . Speaker, we merely want to wish the Premier well in his new literary career. We appreciate his little make -work project . I just hope and pray, Mr.Speaker, that the paper on which his novel is printed is from Number 7 paper machine out there in Corner Brook . 440 0

May 12, 1983 Tape 2060 EC - l MR. NEARY: And in case there a~e some literary geniuses or pessimists or ignoramuses around this Province who do not appreciate the quality of the Premier's effort, let the paper be of such flexible design, Mi. Speaker, that it can be appreciated either from the front or the rear. Thank you. MR· SPEAKER (Aylward): Before we continue with Statements by Ministers, it gives me great pleasure to welcome to our gallery twenty students and their teacher, Mr. Kevin Connors,from St. Mar~'s Central High School, King 's Cove , SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! .. OR¥ QUES'l'IQNS MR· HODDER: Mr.

Speaker. MR· SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Mini~ter of Development. I would like him to confirm reports that rents have risen in recent months by ~ average of 24 per ceht,.and in some cases higher, at Fort Pepperrell and on the Harmon Complex in Stephenville. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR I WTNDSOR: Mr. Speaker, before I answer ~e question, I want to thank the hon. gentleman for asking me that.

To my knowledge, this is the first question that has been asked of me as Minister of Development since this session of the House of Assembly opened. SOME HON •. MEMB~: Hear, hear! MR· WINDSOR: I was beginning to think that the Opposition had forgotten. that there was such a thing as development in the Province. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 4401

~lay 12, 1983 Tape 2060 EC -2 ., .,. MR, WINDSOR: I was about to stand on a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, and complain about that but the bon. gentleman saved me the trouble. l1R. WARREN: You have not been in your seat, boy. MR. WINDSOR: I might add, by the way, that nobc::>dy £rc::>m the Opposition bothered to come to my de£ence of the estimates when they were going through,so there was obviously not too much concern about development in the Province, but I am delighted to know that we are still alive and well. MR. NEARY: You are never here to give us any answers, that is the troubl.e. MR.

WINDSOR: ! have been here mc:z:-e of~en this week than the hen. gentleman opposite, Mr. Speaker. To answer the question, the answer is yes, the rents have increased at Harmon and at P!Leasantvil.ie. The reason for that, Mr. Speaker, is sirilply to bring the rents more in line with market conditions and to recover operating ·costs. We are not , yet up to market conditions 1 we 4402

May 12,1983 Tape No, 2061 MJ - 1 MR. WINDSOR: are still considerably below what has been assessed as market levels, but \ve are simply trying to recover the cost of operating so there is no subsidy required. And, of course,even at this rate, since the increases are being phased in,we will not be recovering total costs this year since we have been operating at a deficit position for the last number of years. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : au Port~ MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. The hen. the member for ~crt Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say to the minister that perhaps one of the reason~ that he does not have questions asked to him is that he does very little in his department, Except for an aluminum smelter I do not know of very much that the minister has done. aut, Mr.

Speake:!:', in view· of the fact that these apartment buildings were originally gi~en to the Province free of charge by the US gove~nment, and in view of the fact that there are people on low and fixed incomes and a lot of old age pensioners living in those units, does the minister not think that that 'raise of 24 per cent - and I might say in some cases more than 24 per cent;in some cases up to 28 and 30 per cent - does he not think that is excessive? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: The hen. the Minister of Development. Mr.

Speaker, I guess the way to look at that is when you are talking about a 24 per cent increase or a 20 per cent increase or a 10 per cent increase, 10 per cent of what? If you are talking about a 10 per cent increase on twenty dollars 1 well 1 that · is not very much; if you are talking about a·lo per cent increase of $l,OOO,then 4403

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2061 MJ - 2 MR. WINDSOR.: indeed it is a great deal of money. Just as an example1and I use this as a specific example from Pleasantville ,a two bedroom unit ,w·ith heat and hot water included, Mr. Speaker, which at present is renting for $302, including Qeat and light, will be increased by $60 to a rent of $362. It is interesting to note that it costs the corporation in the order of about $160 a month just to provide the heat and ~ight to that unit.

Really what the tenant of that particular unit is paying is about $150 or less today for the actual rental of the unit1in addition to what it is costing to provide simply heat and light, not to mention the maintenance and operation of the overall facilities, MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : au Port. MR. HODDER: The han. the member for Port Mr.

Speaker, since the 'government has imposed 5 per cent and 4 per cent wage guidelines on the public service and has encouraged private industry across 1 Province to hold to the 5 per cent and 4 per cent wage guidelines,why is it that the provincial government raises rents 25 to 30 per cent across the Province? I might point out to the minister that the federal government, which had a 6 per cent and 5 per cent wage guideline, directec all their Crown corporations to hold increases in rents such as this1or any increases1to 6 per cent and 5 per cent?

Why is it that on the one hand this administration decides to have 5 per cent and 4 per cent raises on salaries but 25 per cent raises in rents? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, 4404

May 12, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. WINDSOR: Tape 2062 PK - 1 The hon. Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, first of all government's restraint programme is one simply to meet the operating deficit that government found 'itself in, and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Cbllins) dealt with it last Fall in his budgetary revision and in the new Budget which came in this year. It is not a wage and price control system as was put in place a number of years ago by the federal government.

So it is not an attempt to hold wages and prices, it is a policy to deal with a deficit position that the government found itself in. We are specifically trying to do that in two ways; number one, by restricting expenditures, particularly in the government sector~ aLd,number two, by ensuring that we are not incurring a deficit. We could very, very well incur that deficit but.we would have to find the money elsewhere. And where will we find that money, Mr. Speaker? By increasing taxes in some other manner.

So if the han. gentleman is suggesting that the person living in his own home somewhere in Newfoundland, · who is paying very hi~h taxes to a municipality and who is paying very high income tax, should also be subsidizing the rent of persons living in these units; then I think what he is talking about is a subsidized housing prograrnme,which is a different matter - and which comes under another

section of the act. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: Port, a supplementary. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. The hon. member for Port au I would just ·like to point · out to the minister that I do not buy his argument that the Province decides that they are going to keep salaries to 6 per cent and 5 per cent that he can raise rents to 25 per cent. I would ask the minister why it was that this raise came 4405

May 12, 1983 Tape 2062 PK • 2 MR. HODDER: about all of a sudden and why it was that the rents were not phased in over a period of time? And I would ask him is the government planning further increases in rents in those apartments? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Development. MR . ~VINDSOR: Mr. Speaker , the increase came as a result of a thorough review to the Corporation of exactly what the financial situation was with respect to these particular units, a 4406

_!. May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2063 SD - 1 MR. WINDSOR: review which we are taking on all units across the Province. At this particular time, of course, we are tackling two or three different areas and this happens to be one of them. The reason it came at this time is because we have done that review and we are certainly phasing it in. We have already indicated that there may well be an increase next year since this increase does not totally eliminate all of the operating deficit that will be incurred this year. That decision will only be taken after a thorough review of our economic situation next year. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, how can the han. gentleman stand here in this House and tell us that the apar~ents down in Pleasantville are what is causing the financial problem in Newfoundland and Labrador Housing when these apartm~nts were turned over to the government free of charge, no charge to the people of this Province? Now, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the 6 per cent and 5 per cent guidelines that have been laid down a.nd followed by this administration,and in view of the fact that there are a number of people living in these apartments down at Pleasantville,that the government got free of charge, who are living on fixed incomes, old age pensioners and so forth and so on, would the han. gentleman consider rolling back the increases to the 6 per cent and 5 per cent guidelines? MR •. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: The han. Minister of Development. Mr.

Speaker, I think I have already answered the questio~ as it relates to the 6 per cent and 5 per cent guidelines. As it relates to persons on fixed incomes, old age pensions and so forth, if there is a problem there then perhaps these people are looking for 4407

.. )~· ,. May 11, 1983 Tape No. 2063 SD - 2 MR. WINDSOR: assistance under the wrong programme. These are economic rental units and the mandate of the corporation is to recover full cost of operation. These are not subsidy units. If somebody in those units are having severe financial difficulties,than there are other programmes which are available 1 such as the senior citizens• subsidized housing programme and our normal public housing prograrnme,which are available to persons who have particular problems.

As it relates to rollbacks to 6 per cent and 5 per cent, I think I have already answered that question in the previous answer to the oth .er gentlerna.n. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, the han. Is the han. gentleman not aware that if you slap a 25 per cent or 3~ per cent or 35 per cent rental increase on anybody, no matter what their income is that it is going to create a problem for that family? Is ~he han. gentleman aware of that? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Development. 4408

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2064 NM - 1 MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, certainly if there is an increase which is significant,obviously it will have an impact on the economic situation of a particular family unit. The question ,when you are talking 20 per cent . or 25 per cent increase , is when was the last t:irre that these rents were increased?! think you will find there was an increase two years ago at Pleasantville, but at >.Stephenville the situation is different.

You will find, if you averaged it out over the last six years, that you are not talking a 25 per cent increase, you are talking an average of 5 per cent or 6 per cent per annum over that period of time. MR. NEARY: Yes, but you are slapping it on this year. 25 per cent this year. MR. WINDSOR: They are lucky. It should have been · slapped on before. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to i·.the minister responsible for housing,. Could the minister inform us how many houses are owned by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing in St.

John's that are boarded up? What is happening to these houses'? Are they going to be put on the market, sold,or is the department of housing here in the Province going to get into infilling? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: I am not sure, Mr. Speaker, exactly what the hon. gentleman's question is. Is he suggesting that there are units owned by the Housing Corporation in St.' John's that are boarded up? I am certainly not aware of any, Mr. Speaker. There may be some that are being renovated and repaired and for a short term period have been barred ;up as a matter of security.

If the hon. gentleman would give me some specifics as to what he is talking about 4409 -. }

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2064 NM - 2 MR. WINDSOR: I might be able to answer his question more directly. But certainly we do not have any units ~n St. John's that are useable at the moment that are not being put in use. MR. SP~AKER (Aylward) River, a supplementary. MR. HISCOCK: The han. the member for Eagle The question that I asked the minister is there are numerous houses -it is my understanding, and the minister can check on it -around St. John's that are boarded up and a lot of people feel they they belong to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

If these houses are owned by Newfoundland and Labrador Houses and they are boarded up, could the minister then tell us if the government here is going to end up getting into infilling, are they going to sell them at cost, or are they going to sell them for a nominal fee? Because even if there is only one or two, the end result is that these are becoming firetraps and the neighbours next door to them are a little bit concerned on it. It is my understanding that there is quite a number. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is still not being very specific.

I suggest that he probably is not quite sure what his question is. He may be referring to what we call the HY units that date back to 1967, when the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) was Minister of Social Services, and were referred to as 4410

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2065 SD - 1 MR. WINDSOR: homes for the needy. A number of those were transferred to the aousing eorporation. These are older units in the older part of St. John's. Some of those that are beyond repair, in unsafe or unfit condition, may well be boarded up. In many cases we are destroying them, tearing them down or disposing of them. If 'the han. gentleman is talking about housing in other parts of the city, newer units particularly, let me use as an example the units that were on the Cashin Avenue area that were boarded up for a period of time.

That was becau.se of very extensive renovation and remodeling, primarily to meet Eire_Comrnissioner requirements of electrical standards and fire standards and so forth. But there are certainly no units in the city that are usable that are boarded up at this point in time. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: A supplementary to the Minister responsible for Housing (Mr.

Windsor), I know it may bear verydifficult,but could the minister roughly give us the number of houses that are under his department throughout Newfoundland and Labrador that are unoccupied at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Again, Mr. Speaker, I think I just answered that. I am not aware a-: any units in the Province that are unoccupied. MR •. CALLAN: How many are in-Come By Chance? MR. WINDSOR There may be some in some of the rural areas, yes, in Come By Chance, perhaps.

I do not know how many units we own there where economic situations have dictated that there is no demand for them. I think the han. gentleman for Torngat Mountains (~. Warrenl 1 4 411

~' May 12, 1983 Tape No.2065 SD - 2 MR. WINDSOR: however 1 is talking about areas where there are units that are in high demand. He is probably referring specifically to Goose Bay. If that is what he is talking about, I am not aware that there are any units there that have been put into a condition that is acceptable to make available for a family unit that are not being put on the market and being made available. There are certainly units there that we own that have not been restored or renovated to a condition that is satisfactory for us to put families into. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the minister has partially answered my second supplementary. The minister said they own some units in Goose Bay, and knowing that there are people on the waiting list for several ~eeks and ~on:ths,and the housing the minister has is not ready for tenants, ~ould the minister advise us why ~t takes so lqng1 why it takes months and month,s_ with people ~ai~.:i:!:l-9' and the houses are just there i9le?

Does the minister not see that it would be better to have two or three houses ready for occupancy at all times when the vacancies are there? 44'12

May 12, 1983 Tape 2066 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The han. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the han. gentleman was about to _tell me of some particular event in his district that is not in the book. That may well be. What we did we contacted everybody who we could find in the hotel industry, the hospitality industry, the tourism industry and requested them to let us know what events were taking place, · as well; of course, as anything that we know through government is taking place. So what is here i~ a compilation of the advice that was given to us by the tourism industry.

If somebody di~ not _tell us that they are having an event take place or if it came in too late for publication, then we are sorry about that. But certainly that is how it was compiled. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the minister that the question may seem simple, but if you look at the fact that we are this year going to have, I would say, probably the biggest tourist trade we have had in some time, it is an important thing. I noticed going through the booklet that there is a Danish barquentine going into certain ports.

How was it decided, for example, that that ship would go into, say, Twillingate and not go into, say, Seldom on Fogo Island or not go into Carmanville? MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: How was that decision made and why? The hon. Minister o_f Development. I will refer that to my colleague, the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms), who was responsible for setting up that particular activity. MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: The hon. Minister for Culture, Yes, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the activities that are planned and have been co-ordinated, we have received a great degree of co-operation from the RCMP and from other federal agencies, like the canadian Armed Forces and the agency respon _sible, 4413

May 12, 1983 Tape 2066 PK - 1 MR. SPE~~R (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, that would be ideal. I would like to have a housing inventory available to me so that every call that I get at home at nighL I could fill in the morning at nine o'clock when I come in. That would be utopia, Mr. Speaker. Certainly in the St. John's area we would probably have about 400 or 500 people on the waiting list right now for those units, and I wish I did have enough units to put them into.

But I doubt very much if this Province will ever have a housing stock availability that can meet that kind of a demand. As it relates to Goose Bay specifically, it is simply a matter of time in getting tenders called and contracts awarded to get the renovations done, to get these units upgraded to a situation that they are acceptable for persons to go into. That takes some time. we are doing it as quickly as we can within the limitations of finances that are available to us for that particular project. MR. SPEA!<ER: MR. TULK: The hon. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor) has been left out, he said, so we have a couple of questions for him today. I want to ask the minister about a booklet that was published by his department I might say it is a pretty good booklet, by the way -showing the events in Newfoundland this year, the 400 anniversary of Sir Humphrey Gilbert's claiming Newfoundland for Britain. It will be undoubtedly a boom for the tourist trade, and I suppose it is being placed in all the tourist chalets around the Province.

I would like to ask the minister, if he could tell the House who did the research on the booklet, what criteria was used in compiling the booklet, and just what contacts were made in compiling it? 4414

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2067 MJ-1 MR. SIMMS: in this. case the Canadian Armed Forces, was the agency that determined what their itinerary would be for the sailing vessel Svanen, which I think it is the one you are referring to. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD): MR. TULK: Yes. Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I suppose I have got to refer these questions to the Minister . qf Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms).

You say you went through the tourist people throughout the Province, so how was it decided, for example, that you would . include a civic holiday such as Gander Day, and yet you see fit not to include, just to take an example from my own district, Musgrave Harbour Day? How is that decided? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Hinister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, we were not advised that Musgrave Harbour Day was taking place.

As I recall from looking through this last night, there .is Twillingate Day, which is represented by my colleague here, I am sure I saw a Fogo Day somewhere here as-well, or something relating to Fogo which was sent in. }~yway, Mr. Speaker, the short answer is had we been advised that the event was taking place, we would gladly have put it in. I might advise the House that this book ,is much more thorough than it was last year simply because we are getting a much better response now.

Last year we had a much smaller list of events because we have fewer people write in, but now that people are becoming aware that such a publication is 4415

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2067 MJ - 2 MR. SI.Ml-'.S: going to be made available and that it is to their distinct advantage to have their activity listed h~re,then hopefully next ·year and the year after it will be .even bigger and better than it is this year. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : A supplementary, the han, the member for Fogo. MR.

TULK: The final supplementary that I want to ask the minister is if indeed people in those towns were given the opportunity, if they were told that this book was going to be put together - and it is a good thing to do it because it should bring in a great many dollars to those communities in tourist trade - but let me ask you if indeed those people were informed that this booklet was going to be pu~ in place, if there were any ads done and so on?

And if they are not in there now, is the minister going to make any opportunity available for those people to be included in such booklets and perhaps have information about their civic holidays and the events happening in their place placed in touristchalets throughout the Province so they can avail of the same kind of service that he is providing to certain sectors of the Province? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Development. l>!R. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, let me assure the han. gentleman opposite and the House that it is not the intention of the department to preclude any activity or any area or any municipality or any group from availing of any publicity that ·the department undertakes on behalf of the tourism industry in this Province. In subsequent years,obviously if people let us know that they have an activity they want placed in this we are only too happy to put it in there. Our problem is getting the information. We made every effort we possibl¥ could to get that information. 4416

Nay 12, 1983 Tape No. 2067 MJ - 3 MR. WINDSOR : I cannot tell the hon . gentleman that we wrote specifically to the manager of a particular event that he is talking about, if he gives me a name I will check it out and see , but certainly we made every effort to let everybody in the tourism industry know about it. I know my colleague the Minister of Culture , Recreation and Youth (~tr . Simms) in speeches around the Province indicated that this p~ lication would be coming out I ce rtainly did . I know I mentioned it in my speech to Hospitality '83 held in St .

John 's here when many, many people from th e hotel and motel industry were here last year , and at every chance we get . In fact ,I hesitate 4417

May 12, 1983 Tape 2068 EC- 1 MR. WINDSOR: to say that we did, but I think I recall that we advertised in the local newspapers that this publication would be produced, I cannot verify that but I think we did. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK : In spite of all that the minister has said he has done, I can assure the minister that there are a number of communities in my district, for example, that have not been contacted and I know about my own district.

I do not know about other members' district in this House, but I can assure the minister that there are a number of communities in my district that did not know this book was coming out. I would ask him now, for example, if through me, as their representative in this House, those people decided that, 'Alright, yes, we would like to be included in such a publication,' would he now make the resources available to see that those people can be in­ cluded in this our 400th Anniversary? And it is important not only from a tourist point of view but from the ' anniversary point of view as well.

Would he now make that available to them? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure but - I think these have already been published. I do not know if it is possible to put addenda in it to any events. Certainly, we will make every effort. The hon. gentleman asked in his previous question could we make information available in the tourist chalets. Certainly, ·If an area has information of benefit to tourists that they would like to have put in our chalets, we would be only to happy to have it there. That is the whole purpose of the chalets.

If the han. gentleman wants to ensure that activities in his district are included in this brochure, he should take 4418

May 12, 1983 Tape 2068 EC .,.. 2 MR. WINDSOR: it upon himself to make sure the people in his area know that this publication is going to be coming o~t in subsequent years and ensure ~at they get the information into it. MR. TULK: Well, they will know it next year but what about this year? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northen1 Developnent.

The hon. gentleman, I believe, acco~ding to the public media today,met with a group of horsemen, horse owners from Victoria, Carbonear, where they seem to be having quite a difficult problem, Mr. Spe~ker, in getting the co-operation of the government in getting some Crown land for grazing their horses, the horses that they so badly need for hauling firewood in the Wintertime and ploughing their land in the Summertime. I suppose it is the biggest concentration of horses in the 'whole of .Newfound1and in that particular area, Previously, of course, Mr.

Speaker 7 when they had a good member, they were able to deal with th .ese ·matters, but now they have not been able to resolve the m~tter and they came today to ~ee the ministe~. MR. MARSHALL: 0n a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Pres~dent pf the Coun,cil. MR. MARSHALL: The non. member i~ making ~ ~pee;ch. ~his is QQestion Period, MR· SPEAKER: I would ask the han. the Leader of the Opposition to ask his q~estion, 4419

·. May 12, 1983 Tape 2068 EC -3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the han. the minister tell the House if he has been able to resolve this problem? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hen. the minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR· GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, the only information I can give to the House at this point in time is that well, first of all, I apologize for being late for Question Period. I was in a meeting with the very group, along with the member for the area, discussing the "problems that they have. The meetings have not concluded. I will be meeting with them again after Question Period is done.

So we are discussing matters right now. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. 4420

May 12,1983 Tape No. 2069 ah-1 MR. NEARY: I wonder if the han. gentleman could tell the House what the options are? Is it possible for them , for instance, to get that sheep breeding station in the area,where you have 150 acres of choice,prime land and buildings on that acreage and so forth? Is it possible for the horse owners to get that parcel of land that is owned by the government, or what other options are open to the horse owners in that area? MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, no, it is not possible for this particular group to get the facility known as the Swansee Sheep Breeding Station, the land and the building. That has already been awarded to another person who has submitted a proposal and was · successful. There were five proposals received for that particular facility and an award has been made, I have informed, as a matter of +act, the people that we are meeting with presently of that award being made. Options"?

The group in question already have 200 acres of Crown land which is ' . not in a condition right now to accomodate horses or any other animals for grazing purposes.but,as I have said,discussions are taking place presently, and .will resume when Question Period is done, Perhaps there are some options, I do not know. The way it looks right now there are very few. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Well , Mr Speaker, the han. gentleman is pursuing the matter, he says 1 after Question Period. Would the han. gentleman inform the House why he is pursuing the matter?

I mean,are there any proposals on the table? Did the bon. gentleman just break up the 4421

.: May 12,1983 Tape No. 2069 ah-2 MR. NEARY: meeting to come to the House of Assembly for the Question Period or are there proposals on the table? Is there Crown land available in the area? PREMIER PECKFORD: MR.NEARY: They have 200 acres.we gave to them. Mr. Speaker, I understand that that 200 acres is being transferred over to some other area. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR.NEARY: No, that is another separate one. Alright, a separate one. Okay. I am not familiar with it. This is the first time I heard about the 200 acres but it does not seem to be acceptable to the horse owners because it is not good grazing land.

But what about the sheep farm? Has the deal been made, -is it sewed up. That is very valuable land. ,. Perhaps the han. gentleman could tell us what price the Newfoundland government are getting for it. ·Is it worth the effort? He says there was five or six bids. Is it worth the effort,because I would consider that property to be valued at;I would say 1nothing under $250,000. Would the han. gent .leman tell the Ho1,1se if they are getting that price for it or not? MR.SPEAKER: The han. Min;ister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR.GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, as I have we have called·proposals for the operation of that particular facility. Five proposals have been received,and,as a matter of fact,the group that we are dealing with right now was one of the groups that submitted a proposal. The Cabinet has made its decision on the matter and I am not going to inform the succes .sful applicant through the legislature that he was successful. MR.NEARY: advised yet? 4422 You mean he has not been

May 12,1983 Tape No. 2069 ah-3 M.R.GoUDIE: We are in the process of advising hilll now iitnd I would suspect in the next day or two he will be so advised,but I am not going to do it through the legislature. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward.): The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: :i: understand,then,frorn the hon. gentleman's answer that the deal ha15 not yet been finalized. MR.GOIJDIE: MR. NEARY: 4423 It has been finalized. It has been

,, May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2070 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: finalized but the Buccessful bidder has not be notified-, is that what the hq;n. ge~tleman is saying? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, the government has made its decision on the proposals that were sent in, one has been accepted. The successful applicant is now in the process of being advised. My staff are putting the documents together and telling this gentleman, ;You,. Sir,· are the successful applicantwiththe proposal that you submitted'. That is it. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I accept the han.· gentleman's word that nobody else has b~en notified. And I can aLmost tell the hon. gentleman what he got for the land; $55,000 for a piece of property valued at $250,000. No~, Mr. Speaker, if the gentleman has not been notified or the firm has not been notified , is it possible to switch that land over to the horse owners so that they can develop that for grazing their horses? Is that possible? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, no • it is not possible to have that land taken away from the successful bidder and awarded to someone else for a couple of reasons. Number one, the decision has already been made and, number two., this government never has provided pastureland in this Province for horses. There have been cattle pastures and pastures used for grazing sheep, etc.,but even those three years ago were turned over to the private sector. So government is not in the business these days of providing pastureland to anyone. There is a small subsidy. 4424

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2070 SD - 2 MR. GOUDIE: offered to the twenty-nine or so pastures which were turned over to the private sector three years ago. But that is the status of government providing pastureland to any group in the Province. MR. NEARY: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Final supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. gentleman tell the House then if the horse owners are merely asking for land that they will develop themselves as pastureland?

Is that what they are asking,or are they asking the hon. minister to develop the pasture­ land for them? My understanding is that all they want is the acreage, 150 or 200 acres. MR. GOUDIE: You do not understand. MR. NEARY: I do understand, ·Mr. Speaker. There are all kinds of funding available for the horse owners to develop pastureland. Now are they asking the minister's department to develop it or will they develop it themselves if the land is available? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. M~nister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, this particular group realizes that, as I just indicated, there are no - financial programmes, there are other programmes of government to provide grazing land, grants o£; money or any other form of financial assistance for people who own horses. MR. -NEARY: They are not asking·you that. MR. GOUDIE: No, they are not asking, I suppose they would accept it if we were to offer it, I do not know. MR. NEARY: All they want is the land. 4425

./ ,, May 12, 19.83 Tap e No. 20 70 SD - 3 MR. GOUDIE: , But we are not offering, there is not programme policy. They have 200 acres of land which was leased to them in 1979 for which they received a grant through a federal government programme to do some work to that land but that was the only grant they received. ~- NEARY: Why can they not us ·e that land? MR. GOUD IE ; If . the hon. gentleman would let me finish he will get the answer. They .received a· .grant and did some 'otork on the land but not sufficient to 9lear the 200 acres~ They claim 4426

May 12, 1983 Tape No . 2071 NM - 1 MR. GOUDIE: 'that the land is not suitable to develop into pastureland . As I said, all of these - - points are under active discussion now . As soon as I can get out of the House, and hopefully my colleague, the Minister of Forest Resou .rces and Lands ,Mr. Power) will sit in - MR . NEARY: You can go now. MR . GOUDIE: ongoing. MR . NEARY: any more questions. I will not ask .you any mo~e questions. - and the discussions will be · You can go now. I will not ask you MR. SPEAKER (.Aylward) : Order, please! The time for Question Period has elapsed.

Before we continue,I wish to welcome to our galleries a del~gation from Victoria , led by Mayor Frank Clarke. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! 4427

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2071 NM- 2 NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward}: The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act," and also a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Public Service(Pension) Act." MR. SPEAKER: MRS • NEWHOOK: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Municipal Grants Act." MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: The han. President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, I give notice I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Petroleum And Natural Gas Act." MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. MR. DINN: The han. Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An-Act To Amend The Labour Standards Act." MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: The han. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Government British Newfoundland Corporation Limited, N.M.

Rothschild and Sons Supplementary Agreement Act, 1978." I give notice I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Mineral Act, 1976." 4428

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2071 NM- 3 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. MARSHALL: The hon. Preside ~t of-the Council. rtr. Speaker, I have the answer to a question appearing on the Order Paper of March, 1983, asked by the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) • MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: What was the question about? What was the question about? To lay upon the table details of claims relating to contracts of the Cat Arm hydro electric projects. As the han. ~entlmean knows,it will appear in Hansard tomorrow. MR. . SPEARER: The han. Minister of the Environment. MR.

ANDREWS : Mr. Speaker, I have the answers to ~wo questions, ' .. question 76 March 28; question 70 March 25 from the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder). MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: ORDERS OF THE DAY: Motion 1, the Budget Debate. Motion 1, the Budget Debate. The debate was. adjourned on the last day by the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan). The han. member for Bellevue. SOME HON. M.Er-$.ERS : Hear, hear! 4429

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2072 JV - 1 MR. CAI;LAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, on Tuesda~ we talked about the amendment, which is a Motion of non-confidence in the Government, especially as it relates to the Budget that was presented a couple of months ago; a budget in which we saw a $28 million deficit, a budget which had nothing in it at·all, Mr. Speaker, to create any employment for the thousands and thousands of unemployed in this Province,. young, old and middle-aged. Mr. Speaker, all the Budget Speech contained was a continuous attack on Ottawa for its lack of help to this Province..

There was nothing concrete, nothing positive in the Budget, Mr. Speaker. The Budget . . Speech was like the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, apologizing for not doing anything, blaming everything on Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, we had a budget brought down in Ottawa not too long ago, less than a month ago actually, and how did the budget which was presented in Ottawa by Finance Minister, Marc Lalonde, how did that budget differ from the budget that was presented in this House of Assembly. As I had just finished saying, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) in this Province looked around for everybod~ and everything to blame things on; lack of development, lack of an offshore agreement and everything else. Every excuse the minister could find he used. You see, Mr. Speaker, the minister in Ottawa could have done the same thing because it is common knowledge now to every man, woman a~d child in the Western world that we are and have been in a state of depression or recession, where inflation has been hard to keep down and unemployment is 4430

Ma y 12, 1983 Tape No. 2072 JV - 2 MR. CALLAN: rampant. It is happening all over the Western world. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance,federally,could have brought in a budget and he eould ' have said . 'Now,Madame Speaker, the reason that I cannot bring in a very good budget in this House of Conunons in Ottawa, is because we cannot develop Canada, we cannot do the things in Canada that we would like to do'. A prime example that the minister could have used could have been Newfoundland.

The Minister of -Finance, federally, could have said 'Madame Speaker, Newfoundland is ~ prime example, we cannot negotiate with the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) down there, we cannot negotiate with the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador and the reason, Mr. Speaker, that Canada is in such a mess today is not because of us and the government in Ottawa, it is because of the teri Provincial Premier$ and the ten Pro .vincial Governments that we have in Canada, eight are Tories and that is why' • The minister; Mr. Speaker, c;:ould have. said these sorts of things 4431

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2073 MJ - 1 MR. CALLAN: but the minister did not mention these sorts of things, his budget was not negative. He could have said, Mr. Speaker, everybody in the Western World knows that Canada lies between Great Britian on the one hand and the United States on the other and we are dependent £or our cod market and everything else on the United States 1 on Great Britian and Europe.

The Minister of Finance,federall~ (Mr.Lalonde) could have said, 'Madam Speaker, the reason that Canada is in such a mess today is because in England where they have a Tory Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, they have the highest unemployment, and in the United States they have a Tory President, Ronald Reagan.' The Minister of Finance,federally;could have tried to blame things on other people and other countries and, as I said,the eight Tory Premiers that we have in Canada. But no, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finane~ federally, brought down a good budget and even today, Mr.

Speaker, we see examples of the good things in the budget that the Minister of Finance, Marc Lalonde, brought down in -Ottawa. We saw that here today, when the ~1inister for Small Business (Mr. Rompkey) and the Premier announced almost $45 million worth of road work 1 and most of it, Mr. Speaker, the vast majority of these millions of doll~7:_~ 1t?_l:'E:! sent to us from Ottawa. Practicc:'-llY every day that goes by, Mr. Speaker, we see examples of how this Province would be bottom up and out in the Atlantic Ocean a lot further than it is now if it were left only to this government here. Every day, Mr.

Speaker, we hear announcements, every week we hear announcements coming out of Ottawa on job creation programmes, and ones like today's, for example, the Trans-Labrador Highway, the four or five miles of road which will complete the Arterial out to Conception Bay - Manuels River, the Burgee Road, 4432

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2073 MJ - 2 MR. CALLAN: and the road to the industrial park in Gander.Andpf course,over the past couple of years we have been hearing about the road network .to the industrial park in Corner Brook and so on and so on and so on.

The ;Taxation oa 'ta Centre we have right here in this City 1 the Arterial Road system that we have, and the improvements that are going on on the Trans- Canada Highway leading out to the Foxtrap Access Road 1 these are just a few examples. ~~- Speaker, last da~ in his half hour speech,the member for Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr~ Rideout) , who is not in his place now but he is probably within listening distance, that member, Mr.

Speaker, stood and made some of the silliest statements that I have ever heard a member make~ I kno\'T quite well the member for Baie Verte - White Bay, When he was on our side of the House, _before he crossed and went to that side of the House,we were good friends and we ate a lot of meals together during the times when we used to have night sittings. The House would break at 6:00 p.m. arid we ,would come back at 8:00 P.M. , and sit from 8:00 P.M. untill 11:00 P.M. at night and w~ had many a meal together when the member for Baie Verte - ~fuite Bay was on this side.

I could tell a lot of interesting stories about the member for Baie Verte - White Bay but I do not want to get into personalities, Mr. Speaker, Let us just look at 9ne statement that the member for Baie 'verte - White Bay made last day in his speech 1on Tuesday. He said, 1Many people around the Province 4433

May 12, 1983 Tape 2074 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN : are saying that there is no ·- cutback in health care in this Province.' He said, many people are saying there is many people in this Legislature, on our side, and the people on the Open Line programmes and everywhere else. But he said, that it is not true. He said, it is not true because there is a 12 per cent increase this year budgeted for the Department of Health. If that was all he said, Mr. Speaker, you could accept that.

But the very same gentleman - and the Premier whom he works for, who he is secretary to the Premier stands in his place and talks about the fact that Ottawa is not treating this Provinceas well as we were treated last year; we are talking cutbacks in funding, in the EPF funding. ·What nonsense~ Last year, Mr. Speaker, in 1982-1983, we received $140.5 million from Ottawa in EPF funding. And the Premier stands here and he says, now we are not getting as much this year because Ottawa is putt ·ing a cap on it and so on. MS. VERGE: It is not as much as they promised us. MR.

CALLAN: It is not as much as you would like to get, you see. It is not as much as the people at the Grace Hospital and the Health Sciences Complex and so on, not as much as they would like to get. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, Mr. Speaker. You cannot try to use that argument and then try to cut us down when we argue against it, and then try a month or two later, or on another topic, try to twist .it around. Last year $140.5 million from Ottawa in transfer payments, in EPF gran~s. This year, Mr. Speaker, $176.5 million. That, Mr. Speaker, represents a 26 per cent increase over last year. You see, Mr.

Speaker, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. MR. WARREN: That is right. And the minister promised us that nobody would be laid off. 4434

May 12, 1983 Tape 2074 PK - 2 MR. CALLAN: But, Mr. Speak~r, that is not the best statement, that is not the most foolish statement that the member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Bideout) made last day. Between 5:30 and 6:00 o'clock he made it- there were no press here, so obviously they did not hear it, but do you know what the member for Baie Verte-White Bay said on Tuesday past, between 5:30 and 6:00 o'clock, Mr. Speaker?

He stood in his place here and he said,'people around the Province are saying that the $20 million ~hat the provincial government saved during the teachers' dispute, that $20 million should be put into health care.' 'But', said the member for Baie Verte-White Bay, 'but', Mr. Speaker, 'that is not true', he said, 'the Province did not save $20 million'.

And here is the reason that he gave: He said, 'The Province did not save $20 million, because when the Province brought down its Budget a couple of. months ago it budgeted for a $28 million deficit so, therefore, the Province did not save$20 million because we still are going to have to borrow $8 million'. And, he said, all we have done, all the Province has done is manage not to have to go and borrow that extra $20 million. What silly nonsense. I mean, the fact of the matter is that $20 million was saved, $20 million in salaries were not paid to the 8,000 teachers throughout this Province and the Province, Mr.

Speaker, can let that $20 million go for new classrooms, or new school buildings, or health or any number of things. 4435

.~~- May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2075 ah -1 MR. CALLAN: So for the member for Baie Verte -White Bay (Mr. Rideout) to make such silly statements, I suppose he did not have anything else to say. He stood late in the day and hoped that nobody would hear him say it. But it was silly nonsense. You know, you cannot twist it and turn it just because you want to. Now, Mr. Speaker, we are talking about the lack of a good budget, we are talking about no confidence in this government. Mr. Speaker,. the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor) was very pleased today_that some questions were put to him and he said that he was surprised that there were not more. Mr. Speaker, there are all kinds of question on the Order Paper and there are all kinds of questions that coUld be asked of the Minister of Development.· The Hou~e of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, has been ~pen now for two months, approximately two months.

Well,long before the House opened the Minister of Development, in the media, said that he woulq be releasing in a couple of weeks the report on the aluminum smelter, but that the report would not tell us whether it would be put in the Bay of Islands or in Labrador. Now, then, where is the report? MR. WINDSOR: It is coming. MR. CALLAN: Two weeks before the House of Assembly opened the minister said, 'I will publish it in two weeks'. The House has been open for two months and we still do not have it, and he says it is coming. MR.

WINDSOR: I did not say it was going to be published, I said I hoped to receive it. in a couple of weeks. MR.· CALLAN: I see. Very good. Well, obviously the press were wrong. All you can believe, Mr. Speaker, if you are not in the presence of the minister when he is standing before a crowd of people making a 4436

May 12,1983 Tape No. 2075 ah-2 MR. CALLAN: statement- if it is not being done in the House of Assembly and if he is making a speech and you do not happen to be in the audience, all you can do is get your newspaper the next morning and read what the press reported that the minister had said, 'It is coming.' He had hoped to do it in two weeks, and that is about three months ago, the aluminum smelter which was talked about by Joey Smallwood long before this crowd ever took over government eleven years ago. So what is happening with this government , Mr.

Speaker, with this do-nothing government ,with its do-nothing budget we just had presented a couple of months ago; Whatever bad they can find with the Liberal years of Joey Smallwood they are rehashing , they are talking about the bad Churchill deal. gindsight is a wonderful thing for them. But, Mr. Speaker, when it suits them they will dig up something that they think will give hope to the people in Labrador. - . . The aluminum smelter was talked about before Joey Smallwood went out of power 1 and it is being _talked ab~ut _ eleven years later. And what has this government done to bring it about?

Nothing, absolutely ·nothing. MR. TULK: Tell him about it. MR. CALLAN: Okay, here is what it says. 'One big project in Labrador, an aluminum smelter, is,however,­ becoming less and less assured in light of the inpending decision to build a similar scale facility on the St. Lawrence in Quebec~ I wonder will that be part of the minister's report if and when he ever tables it in this House,or presents it to the media? You see, l-lr.

Speaker, if · the forty-four members on that side of the House of Assembly were sitting there and were being graceful and so on like some of them are, like the Minister of Municipal Affairs 4437

May 12 ,1983 Tape No . 2075 ah -3 MR. CALLAN: (Ms .Newhook) who is a fine lady, and so me of the others over there , but the arrogant ones like the memb er for Grand Falls (Mr . Simms), the Minister of Culture , Recreation and Youth who plays political pork barreling , pork barrels everything that he can,and the Minister of Transportation (Mr . Dawe) - 44J8

May 12, 1983 Tape 2076 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: the arrogance of th~t minister who stood up here a couple of days ago and tabled in the House of Assembly an answer to a question that I had to ask the Premier the day before because he was not here. MR. ~·7ARREN: That is right. MR. CALLAN: And the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) who, Mr. Speaker; is always there, you know, when the pork barrelling goes on. Where was the Minister of Transportation today when the Premier was in the spotlight making the announcement about the $40 million worth·of road work, with the hon. William Rompkey, I wonder?

He was not allowed, was he 1 to make the announcement? The Premier had to take all the glory. MR. WARREN: A-ha! MR. DAWE: Teamwork. Teamwork. MR. CALLAN: Yes, it is teamwork, alright. But, Mr. Speaker, the arrogance displayed by the Premier and some of his ministers is sickening. I was in South Dildo a couple of mornings ago with the.provincial Minister of Fisheries -. - .. (Mr. Morgan) , where the minister made an announcement that will help the area, will help the fish plant workers there, and after the minister had made his announcement, I stooa - and congratulated him for his efforts.

Whether he put any effort into it or not, I do not know, but,I mean, we will assume that. That is what I did the other morning, MR. TULK: MR. CALLAN: You were nice to him. I was nice to him. I came into the House of Assembly and the Minister of Transport~tion stood up and made a statement and he said, 'If the Opposition spokesman on Transportation (Mr. Callan) had done his work in the co~ttees, 4439

May 12, 1983 MR. CALLAN: SOME HON. MEHBERS : MR. CALLAN: Tape No. 2076 EC-2 .he would have known ail about it.' Hear, hear! Well, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that it was not just the Opposition spokesman on Transportation - you see, the fact of the matter is that what I said in my questions to the Premier the day before, what I suggested - it came from the budget, the same page that I referred to concerning the fifty-three watchmen - $748,000 in salaries.

And I said, 'Forty-eight will be laid off the last of May so they will get some of it, even the forty ~eight will get some.' And the minister came in the next day and he agreed. He said, 'The Province will be saving $620 million by laying off these forty-eight watchmen.' MR. DINN: Million dollars? MR .• CALLAN: MR. DINN: MR . CALLAN: thousand dollars. MR. TOBIN: MR. CALLAN: That is exactly what he said. Million? Six hundred and twenty-eight He said thousand. Obviously, thousand. Well, you know, a slip of the tongue is no fault of the mind, not in all cases. It is when the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr.

Tobin) is speaking because he does not know what he is talking about anyway. MR. TOBIN: And you are a former teacher? MR. CALLAN: Not only was he not a former teacher, I do not think he was ever a former student, 1~. s~eaker. Mr. Speaker, this reduction of $632,240 represents thenet of several items, including the provlsion for step increases, reclassifications and, of course, the layoffs. But it is this kind of arrogance, Mr. Speaker, that prevents me from ever wanting to stand in this Houseof Assembly and give any praise to anybody. 4440

May 12, 1983 Tape 2076 EC - 3 MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) - what is the Minister of Development doing, I won:der, for the West Coast? How many trips has the Minister of Development made to Ottawa to take advantage of ·the ILAP funding, the Industrial Labour Assistance Programme funding~ On the West Co<;ist, Mr. Speaker , with these recent layoffs being announced around co ·rner Brook and so on, the unemployment rate i.s 28.5 per cent. _. MR. STAGG: Twenty-eight point what? MR. CALLAN: Twenty-eight point five per cent, tl).at is the unemployment rate in Corner Brook and surround~ng area. 4441

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2077 SD - 1 MR. CALLAN: And, Mr. speaker, ·there is money in Ottawa like the money that was announced this morning at the press conference. MR. TULK: MR. CALLAN: MR. DINN: MR. TOBIN: available? They already have an agreement signe There is money available. One hundred and one million dollars. How do you know there is money MR. CALLAN: There is money available because the town council of Corner Brook went up to Ottawa and they were told that the money is available, all you need is to get your provincial government to come -looking for it. MR.

DINN: That claim went in for Buchans, Baie Verte, Corner Brook, Labrador City and Wabush. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) will have his opportunity t.o speak. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Sh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Ay lward): Order, please: MR. CALLAN: He will have his opportunity to ~peak, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOBIN: There are three of you there together and it is hard to say which is the worst. MR. CALLAN: Now, here is the ignoramus from Burin- Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) again, Mr. Speaker, not "• even in his own seat - MR. MATTHEWS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: Unparliamentary, Mr. Speaker.

Order, please: - the man with the welfare mentaliti because that is all he has ever done, try to keep a measly dollar from some poor old widow or some poor man and his family who could not get a job and, therefore, could not feed his family right and had to go and see him as a welfare officer. 4442

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2077 SD - 2 MR. CALLAN: The welfare menta~ity of that gentleman, Mr. Speaker, shows through every day. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I think every member has a right to be heard in silence and - MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! MR. CALLAN: - I would like the hon. member to be expelled. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to remind ·all hon. members that each member in the House has the right to be heard in silence. And I would like to draw to the attention of the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) a word that he just used is listed in Beauchesne as being I unparliamentary, the word 'ignoramus'. I would ask that he withdraw it, please. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, on another day, at another time I will find a more appropriate word. I withdraw the word 'ignoramus'. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. 'MR. CALLAN: But, Mr. Speaker, in the next minute or two I have I want to get back to the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr.

Rideout} who als ·o talked about the tremendous efforts that he made, and I congra1;ul.a .te him, I commend him because I know that he made tremendous ' - efforts,to try to re-activate the Baie Verte mine. The member for Baie Verte - White Bay travelled to Ottawa and travelled to other countries on several occasions and tried to ~onvince people that this mine is workable. And I am . pleased, I am just as pleased as he is, when he said last day that the Baie Verte mine is on the come back, it is on the swing back and I am glad to hear it. But I want to remind him, Mr. Speaker, that he knows, even though he 4443

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2077 SD - 3 MR. CALLAN: did not give much lip service to it, he knows that one of the big reasons why the Baie Verte ·mine is and will be re-activated is because of the help that was given by Ottawa, the millions of dollars that were poured in by Ottawa j~st like the millions of dollars that were poured into Stephenville. MR. RIDEOUT: I realize that. That is what I said. MR. CALLAN: every word. I know what you said, I heard MR. RIDEOUT: I spent about ten minutes congratulating the federal government. MR. CALLAN: That is right. But you see, Mr.

Speaker, it is very easy for the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) to be able to fight for his district or fight for a town or an industry in his district when he is the Premier's right hand man. What opportunity did I have when the Come By Chance oil refinery closed, what chance did I have to go , to Ottawa or to go to Iran or anywhere else ,and try to re-activate that industry, Mr. Speaker: What chance? MR. RIDEOUT: The same chance that Hodder and McNiel had when Stephenville closed down. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, we know what happened in Stephenville.

Stephenville was re-activated thanks again to the millions and millions and millions of dollars .that were poured into Stephenville to change it from a linerboard plant into a news print plant. 4444

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2078 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: We know what happened, and we kno~ how much - and this is the theme of what I am saying you see, Mr. Speak .er.., What a difference, what a difference there is in two budgets, the one that the federal government brought down less than a month ago and the one that was brought down by the provincial government here less than two months ago. What a difference. Mr. Speaker, I want to touch on the lack of an offshore oil agreement. By the way, the member for Baie Verte-White Bay tMr. Rideout) just left. He was here, but he left again.

I should point out to him that presently living in the district of Bellevue, but working with ERCO in the member for Placentia East's (Mr. Patterson) district, are there skilled journeymen who were on welfare in Baie 'Verte-White when their mine closed down but who are presently working with ERCO thanks to the initiative· and the NEED programme and the application that went from ERCO to emply 7~ or 80 journeymen electricians, pipefitters and so on and so on. They are presently working at ERCO an~ they are living in the district of Bellevue and they are welcome to live there. I hope, Mr.

Speaker,.- that they will be there when the next election rolls around so that they will be able to vote in the district of Bellevue as well. I hope that they will be there to vote in the district of - Bellevue, especially when you consider that in the district of Bellevue, from the first time that I was elected,in 1975, ' until last Spring's election, I would say that there were literally hundreds of families who had to move out of the district of Bellevue,and I have mentioned it before. The town of Come By Chance is a ghost town, the town of Swift Current, where ~e hon.

Don Jamieson used to live, _is practic~~ly a ghost town, mostly all senior citizens. Because there are dozens and dozens of scores of families, and hundreds of people who have 4445

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 20-78 NM - 2 MR. CALLAN: had to move out of the district of Bellevue, in Arnold's Cove and Come By Chance and Sunnyside, and Goobies and all around, Swift Cur:tent and North Harbour, ~ho are presently in Fort McMurray. It is too bad, Mr. Speaker, that they could not vote last Spring, that they could not vote and have their votes sent down to the Returning Officer in the district of Bellevue: I can guarantee you that the vote for the Liberal and the PC candidateswould not have been nearly as close as it was last Spring . l can ·guarantee you :·.that. And the more people, Mr.

Speaker, who come from Baie Verte and live in the district of Bellevue the better, they are welcome. Because, as I said, I hope that they are there the next time on election rolls around because,obviously,they will know how to vote properly and they will know that to vote Liberal is the only sensible way to vote. But, Mr. Speaker, to conclude, this budget - I wonder, Mr. Speaker, what time the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) is going to table his roads programme, capital works? Last week I read in the newspaper where the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr.

Reid) announced three roads programmes for his district. And,of course 1 I heard the member for Trinity North (Mr. Brett) announce a programme. And the Minister of Fisheries, the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) announced a roads programme. I did not hear the member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr. Hearn), even though I do know that he got $1 million, no pavement but a lot of road work. Do you see the difference, Mr. Speaker? When Ottawa announces money for projects it is outlined.

I have it here in my pocket 1 the press release of this morn~g where the. federal minister outlines in every detail exactly where these millions of dollars are going to be spent. Not so with the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe1 1 4446

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2079 JV- 1 MR. CALLAN: the Provincial Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). It is like the budget, Mr. Speaker, it is covered up, The $630,000 that is going to be saved by laying-off forty-eight watchmen, it is there but in a covered-up way. Not only did the member for Bellevue not see it, Mr. Speaker, but none of the press saw it either, as they usually see things and talk about them. But, Mr.

Speaker, here we see it, -·-· <~-- ~· ···- -···· ·- ·--·-.,.. every dollar and every millions of dollars worth is spelled out by the Federal Government - the Trans-Labrador highway $13.75 million, TCH to Manu~ls - $9 million from Ottawa, Gander access road ~ $1.875 million, the road to Lance au Meadows - $5.25 million, the Burgee road - - ~ ~ .. -. --·- -·- • ..... -- - ~ - ·-or - - .. MR. PATTERSON: . Have you got the list of roads there? MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) has had that newspaper in his desk ever since the by-election of 1981. I do not know why.

He is not hurting me with it, I think what he wants to do - he hauls it out every now and then. A couple of days last week he ~ad it out and anybody who sits at his desk - I notice, Mr. Speaker, it is getting a little bit worn and tattered - r.m ·. TULK: Get a new one for him. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) Order, please. MR. CALLAN: What I can easily do is bring in fifty-two. ~sa matter of fact,I will bring in fifty-four, I will bring in a couple for the ladies at the table as well. I have dozens and scores of them - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: - I did not even need them to win the election by 694 votes 4447

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2079 JV - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! ~y leave! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! The bon. members time has elapsed. MR. CALLAN: An excellent newspaper which contained every ounce of truth and which won me the election. Mr. Speaker, I support the amendment. SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave! By leave! SOHE HON. HEr-lEERS : No. No. MR. SPEAKER: No, leave is not granted. The bon. member for St. John's Centre. DR. McNICHOLAS: Thank you,Mr. Speaker. Naturally I am going to speak against this vote of non-confidence because I have every confidence in the present government.

I would like to congratulate the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) for the budget he brought in on March 17. What interested me about the figures was that he is projecting a deficit of $28 million - ~ - · - --- when we are told the rich Province of Nova Scotia, that is building and taking advantage of this oil boom even though they have not one drop of oil yet/that . their projected deficit is $230 million.

I think the aims of the present government are to balance our budget to the best of our ability, try to right the wrong~ of the past and do away particularly with the handouts that seem to have been what we have been looking forward to for the last twenty or thirty years. I think, Mr. Speaker, we will have to realize that there is a limit to what we can do, there are terrific demands on our health budget, on education, on social welfare, on development and from ~here is the money going to come? I think we .are taxed now to the hilt, we are taxed higher than any of us want but we just have 4448

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2079 JV - 3 DR. McNICHOLAS : to get the money. If,for instance,we got a fair deal in Hydro, in the Churchill Falls instead of getting a pittance of $10 million- a year and Quebec getting $600 million, if 4449

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2080 MJ - 1 DR. MCNICHOLAS: we got our fair share of that we would not just have to scrape the bottom of the barrel which we are doing at the present time. If we got any type of decent break from the federal government,! think our offshore would be well on its way by now. But thank God, Mr. Speaker, our day is dawning and I doubt very much if we will have to wait much longer than another year until we have a different government in Ottawa and then,l think,we will see that the revenue and the hopes for the future will begin to be realized.

Mr, Speaker, with tha:t background I want to speak today mainly on a subject with which I. am reasonably fami.liar and that is some of the health services and particularly the hospitals in.our Province. You.know, Mr. Speaker, to most people hospital costs are a mystery. I believe I have some expertise in that field1 since most of my adult life has been spent in hospitals -in operating rooms, in the wards and also on various committees in hospitals dealing hospital cos~,hospital stay, the length of stay of patients, the quality of patient care. Mr.

Speaker, T have worked for years in hospitals in Ireland, I have worked in hospitals in England1 I was in charge of a ~ed Cross Hospital in France just after the war, for a year, X have .worked in Africa in hospitals. I worked in a Black hospital in what is now Zimbabwe, a black hospital that had more beds than our three main hospitals in St. John's combined, and I well remember one morning going into the operating room and doing ten major operations that day and that was not at all unusual for people who were working in that type of milieu.

I have worked ·in hospitals in the US and I have been on the staff of St. Clare's,and the Grace, and the General Hospital here for,I suppose,a generation. 4450

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2080 MJ - 2 DR. MCNICHOLAS: ·And I remember working at the other end of Canada, in British Columbia ,for a year where I was on the active staff of the two main general hospitals in Victoria,B.C •. So, I think I know a certain amount about how hospitals work and where they have to get the money and how they should spend it. And I do not think, Mr. Speaker, the hospitals in Newfoundland are any different from the hospitals anywhere else,but I am going to confine my remarks today to the hospitals here in Newfoundland. First of all, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask you a question, I would like to ask the han~ members a question. Why is it that you can have a double room in the .Newfoun~land aotel for sevent~-five or eighty dollars per day and ,_YOU can only ~e~ a single bed in the Health Sciences Complex for $450 per day. Mr. Speaker, it is not the food, it is not the expensive equipment or its maintenance,because, Mr. Speaker, that has nothing to do with the price, it . is a completely different capital budget that looks after these matters. I will tell you why, Mr. Speaker, we pay $450.

It is because we pay salaries and wages,and that is 75 to 80 per cent of the operating cost in any hospital today. That is the crux of the : matter, 80 per cent is _salaries and the other 20 per cent is heat, light, supplies, food, X-rays, drugs, etc •• Now, Mr. Speaker, how does any hospital come to its budget, the budget that they 4451

May 12, 1983 Tape 2081 PK - 1 DR. MCNICHOLAS: submit to the government for approval. These hospital costs are based mostly on last year's costs,with an addition for inflation, and with an addition for wage settlements or increases in wages that have occurred over the year, and,as I have mentioned,that is 80 per cent of the cost. Now,these costs are divided by the number of patient.days in hospital and that gives you the cost per bed per day. I think~ it is very important, Mr.

Speaker, to remember if the hosvital is fully staffed and the hospital is only 50 per cent occupied.that the cost per bed is going to be doubled what it would be if the hospital was 100 per cent full. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are only two ways to reduce hospital cost. Number one, you have to work the staff,. that is 80 per cent of the cost, to full capacity. rn other words,you have to have your hospital full. Or the other way is you reduce the staff , or if you like you can put it, reduce the fat. If there is toq much fat in the hospital you remove that. Now look at the hospitals here in St. John's, Mr.

Speaker, they are 100 per cent- I would say they are 105 per cent full. And how can you be 105 per cent full? I will tell you how you can , Mr. Speake:c:,-arid that is what is h~ppening to the hospitals here in st. John's. There are beds in the corridors, there are extra beds put up, they are working to more than their capacity and, Mr. Speaker, there is a waiting list of patients wanting to come in. Now,how about the nursing staff? Because I think a lot of the people feel that the nursing staff is the main cost, it is their wages. Mr. Speaker, anyone who knows anythi~g about cost in hospital realizes 4452

May 12, 1983 Tape 2081 PK - 2 DR. MCNICHOLAS: that the nursing staff cost is only 25 per cent to 30 per cent of the salary cost. People talk about the doctors in hospitals and their expense. You can forget about that, Mr. Speaker, when you are talking about operating costs in a hospital, because a doctor's payment does not come ·out of the operating cost of the hospital, it comes out of a completely different budget. If we want to cut down the cost of hospitals in St.

John's, and I would say anywhere else, too, we will have to look at the administration~ the supervisory, the clerical, in fact, we will have to look at everything other than the active, and I emphasize, active nursing care to a patient. And while I am saying that I just want to mention one thing because I have heard tZ1e hon. Minister of Health (Mr. House) on a number of occasions talking about accreditation, and what accreditation means, and I agree with him. And I remember before we had accreditation in hospitals here in St. John's, and I have been through accreditation here.

This is to maintain .the standards in hospitals, and I am all for that. But accreditation had got to be a holy cow. 4453

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2082 SD - 1 DR. MCNICHOLAS: It is overdone. There are people who come here from Up Along and tell the hospitals how how many consultants are required so as to be accredited. It does not matter if these consultations which have to be paid for are very expensive consultations, you have to have X number of these to be accredited, you have to have X number of reports sent out, you have to have so many lab tests done, you have to have this and you have to have th~t done.

I believe that we should have accreditation, but I think we should put our thumbs down on some of the recommendations that they are bringing forth. Mr. Speaker, why does the Hea1th Sciences Complex cost $450 a day, St. Clare's and the Grace Hospitals cost $300 a day? Roughly,the Health Sciences Complex costs about half as much again. I would venture to say, Mr. Speaker, it is fat. I would like to see if there is fat also at St. Clare's and the Grace Ho~pitals. It is extra staff.

Now, I have mentioned this before ~nd some people have said, 'Oh, well, it is not that, it is the expensive equipment in this hospital or that hospital that accounts for this extra cost'. Let me make it perfectly clear, Mr. Speaker, that that is not so. No matter how expensive the equipment, no matter how expensive it is to maintain that equipment, that expense comes out of the capital budget and has nothing to do ~hatsoever with th.e operating costs of that hospital. Now,again it is mainta~ned by some, 'Oh,sure, the Health S?iences Complex will be more costly than St.

Clare's and the Grace because they do more complicated procedures there'. Th.at is a lot of nonsense, Mr. Speaker. To do a coronary bypass ·, we hear all about it, the patients are in the intensive care after their operation and they are out of hospital 4454

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2082 so - 2 DR. MCNICHOLAS: in a week. But let us take the Grace Hospitals, all the kidney failures right across Newfoundland, they are dealt with in the Grace Hospital. You take St. Clare's Hospital, any patient with cancer of the lung that need to have a 1ung removed that very major procedure is done mostly at St. C.lare's Hospital. A hip replacement,where you take out the hip joint and put in an' artificial metal hip and joint that, Mr. Speaker, is done at St. Clare's Hospital. Mr.

Speaker, again I will emphasize if we wa;nt to bring down the costs we will have to look carefully for. the fat. Now the hon. Minister of · Health (Mr. House) has set up a commission to look into hospital costs and· let me suggest to him a number of ways or items that the commission_might, look into. r want them to look into the adlninistration staff, see what they do and now much is essential. 4455

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2083 NM - 1 DR. MCNICHOLAS: I would like them to look into the supervisory staff, see what they do and how much is essential. I would like them to look into the clerical staff and see what they do and see how much is essential. At the same time,let them look into the medical, surgical and laboratory work. I think that is efficient but I would like to see it looked into. Because I think too many x-rays, and lab work,are being ordered by doctors. Mr. Speaker, let me go back to earlier days; we had outstanding doctors here, equal to any today.

I remember very well Joe Murphy, father-in-law of the member for St. John's North (Mr. Cartert. Gary Brownrigg both eminent surgeons. I remember Nigel Rusted, another eminent surgeon; · Ian · Rusted, an eminent physician who is now Vice-President of the Memorial University~ radiologists like Bliss Murphy, in charge of radio therapy at the moment; Aiden McLachlan, Professor of Radiology at MUN; Joe Josephson, in charge of the laboratory. Now,in their time, Mr. Speaker, there was no fat. Do you know, Mr. Speaker, when I was operating in these early days in the hosp~tal, what a hospital bed cost in St.

Clare's or the Grace? ~1ot $450, it cost $4 a day for a bed. I know times have changed and costs have changed but they have not changed in anything like that degree. I also know that an awful lot of that low cost was due to the free work and the dedicated work done by the Sisters of Mercy in St. Clare's Hospital and the Salvation Army staff in the Grace Hospita~. And I think, 4456

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2083 NM- 2 DR.· MCNICHOLAS: ·Mr. Speaker, we all owe a tremendous debt o£ gratitude to the nuns in St. Clare' 5' Hospital and to the Salvation Army workers in the Grace Hospital. And we owe it to them not alone in medical services 1 but we owe it to them in the teaching and the many other social services that they have provided over the generations for all of us here in Newfoundland. Now, Mr. Speaker, in case hon. members might think I am harking back to the Dark Ages of medicine, I would like to read you an exerpt from thi.s week's issue of Newsweek.

You all know Newsweek, and this is on page 49, an.d it is headed "Autopsy report, what doctors overlook." And I will read it 'to yo'u, it is j.ust two paragraphs. "Are physicians putting too much faith in CAT scans, ultrasounds, radioactive tracers, or other wonders of medical technology? 4457

May 12, 1983 Tape 2084 EC - 1 DR. McNICHOLAS: l.pparently so. A r~port last week on autopsies performed over two decades at a major Harvard teaching hospital concluded that doctors are making as many diagnostic mistakes as they did before the glittering riew tools came along." ,And, unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, they do make mistakes, you know. To continue: "Dr. Lee Goldman and hi~ colleagues at Boston's Brigham and women's hbspital, carried out a study to determine whether the new diagnostic hardware had made autopsies obsolete as a way of helping doctors learn from their mistakes.

The investigators looked at the results of 100 post-mortem examinations performed at their hospital in 1960, i970 and 1980 and found that the percentage of diagnostic errors was about the same in each of the three eras." Mr. Speaker, the minister's Commission may find fat in our hospital administration and I ho~e they do so that we can cut down on the cost. One obvious way to pare it down is to have . some particular specialties in one hospital rather than having them spread out to two or three hospitals.

Now, if hospitals could only join forces together, it would result in a more efficient unit, and this is very obvious. And I know that there are some early or preliminary negotiations going on at the moment between St. Clare's and the Grace with a view of a possible amalgamation of their services, and I hope that that will come to fruition. Mr. Speaker, St. ~ohn's hospitals are full to overcrowding but let us not forget that these hospitals are not St. John's hospitals, they are referral centres for all of Newfoundland. In other words, difficult cases from any part of Newfoundland or Labrador that cannot 4458

.. May 12, 1983 Tape 2084 EC - 2 DR. McNICHOLAS: be dealt with localLy are taken to St. Jbhn's and that is, of course, why the hospitals in St. John's are full. Now, some of the hospitals, Mr. Speaker, outside St. John's are half empty. Now, we are paying out our hard-earned dollar to staff these hospitals that are not doing a full day's work~ not through any fault of the staff who are there, but the patients are not there. This is why the hen. the Minister of Health (Mr. House) closed down the North West River hospital, and I agree with him. I agree with him. MR. TULK: Come on now! Why? DR. McNICHOLAS: Mr.

Speaker, there is a hospital in Goose Bay, twenty miles away - MR. WARREN: And thirty years older. DR. McNICHOLAS: ~ that, Mr. Speaker, is being upgraded and there is going to be a first-rate clinic established where the North West River ho -spital is today. I do not want the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, or the unions or anybody else to tell me that closing a hospital is going to put people out of work, sure it is, but hospitals are not ' there to give employment, hospitals are there to cure sick people, and if the hospital is inefficient, it should make way for an efficient hospital.

They are not there like you might keep a fish plant open to provide some of the s·ocial needs of an outport, a hospital is there to cure sick people and we should realize that. Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, I want to state a few facts, I do not want tp pass judgeme~t. Right now, this year, St. John's hospitals can only stay within their budgets by closing beds, 4459

}; May 12,1983 Tape No. 2085 ah-1 DR. McNICHOLAS: because that is tpe only way tney can reduce staff which is the main cost. There has ahrays been Summer closing because of holidays we all know that,but it will have to be more drastic this year because the hospitals can only meet this budget by not employing Summer relief. There is an alternative, Mr. Speaker. The alternative is to reduce the staff on a more permanent basis by closing a smaller number of beds over a much longer period. Mr.Speaker, in conclusion we have options and they are obvious,let us choose carefully. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address :·.the budget debate and I would like to begin by saying that I am definitely going to be voting against this budget. I think this is one of the worst budgets that has ever been bestowed upon the Newfoundland people. I am sort of surprised that the hon. member for St.

John's Centre (Dr.McNicholas) could get up - I must congratulate him because hemade a fairly good speech, but he was saying that there was a lot of - MR.TULK: You have to congratulate him on something else to,he showed his true colours , he showed_ he was a true Tory. MR. WARREN: Okay. He might be a true Tory but,however,he did say,and hope that all the ears within the confines of this House did hear it,that there is a l~t of fat in the hospitals.

Now to a cer~ain degree I probably have to agree with my colleague but I would also like to go a little bit further,especially when you look at the budget and see $54 million being paid out for 4460

May 12,1983 Tape No. 2085 ah-2 MR.WARREN: physicians' services under MCP~ That is where most of the fat is, where doctors in and around St. John's, · in particular general practioners,who on several qccasions, time and time again, will just say to a patient, Okay, go do~ . to the drug store and get this medication and come back and see me in four days or seven days time and that patient will come back and forth to that doctor at least seven or eight times just for the sake of the doctor getting money from MCP.

This is where this government can save, by doing a fellow­ up or doing a little survey on about six or eight doctor~ just look at it for once. Just take six doctors in St. John's and look at the number of patients they had in the last year and pee how many repeats,and we will find out how much money is coming out off MCP, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am surprised that the Minister of Health (Mr.House) - maybe he mentioned it yesterday and if not I am going to mention it today--the Minister of aealth did not come into this ' House this past several days and get up and ask the House to extend a letter of appreciation or a letter of praise to Ken Meeker and the Lung Association. I am surprised that the minister has not made it public,because I believe, Mr. Speaker, that Ken Meeker with CBC,in conjunction with the Lung Association,is doing one of the greatest deeds that has ever been done in Newfoundland. 4461

May 12, 19 .83 Tape 2aa6 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: I am suprised that the Minister of Health (Mr. House) never asked this hon. House to extend a congratulatory message to Ken Meeker, congratulating him on what he is doing. MR. HOUSE: (Inaudible) • MR. WARREN: The minister can speak after I am finished. MR. HOUSE: I would like to tell you that the Depertment of Health, Education Division, is involved in this programme. MR." WARREN: But the minister should also come in and commend CBC for the fantastic job they are doing. And furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I know why · the minister has npt spoken about .it.

Here is the reason why this government had not said one thing about it, it is because next year, when the Budget comes down,they are going to miss some taxes from cigarettes. They are going to miss their taxes. Here is Ken Meeker and the Lung Association saying, Look, cut out the cigarettes, and this government has not said one word, because we are going to be losing taxes if you cut out cigarettes. MR. ANDREWS: people. MR. WARREN: But you will have healthier Sure you will have healthier people. But then you are going to . lose by people not going to the hospitals.

So this is why, you know, there will not be as many people go to hospital. So, Mr. Speaker, if the minister says his department is involved this year, why does· the minister not try another scheme next year in conjunction with his department and in conj~nction with CBC,and let us see if Ken Meeker will try the same procedure with alcohol. 4462

.l May 12, 1983 '" MR. HOUSE: coming in now. MR. WARREN: Tape 2086 PK - 2 We have an Alcohol Foundation Try the same thing through a programme as Ken Meeker had founded and here we will see - MR. TULK: Do you know something? The sad

part is he believes everything he says. AN HON. MEMBER: Is that right? MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, we can see that the Minister of Health (Mr. House), knowing that this programme was carried throughout Newfoundland and Labrador - an~ I might add, Mr. Speaker, just for the record, that in a small town in my district, Makkovik, I think there are something like twelve people · who have followed the non-smoking programme. It is amazing!

One family, a man and his wife, have been very heavy smokers, and they were telling me the day before yesterday that they were just waiting for the next day to come to cut them out completely. In the past month, since they have been following this programme, they estimated that they have ~aved $94, just by following the programme, and they had not stopped smoking up to that time. So just imagine what a saving it will be to the Newfoundland people ·. if they follow this programme. Mr. Speaker, I never smoked in my life. I tried to, but I could not smoke. I do not regret not smoking.

I think there are a lot of people who, if they followed that programme - ·probably in conjunction with what the hon. member who spoke earlier said, we would not have all that fat in the hospitals, and the reason why we would not have all the fat in the hospitals would be because people would be healthier and would not need to go there. So, Mr. Speaker, we have to encourage this sort of thing. ·And I think the han. the Speaker should send out a congratulatory message from this House to 4463

. ~· May 12, 1983 MR. WARREN: r Tape 2086 PK - 3 Ken Meeker and the Lung Association saying, A good job well done. Keep it up • 4464

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2087 MJ - 1 MR. WARREN: Now, I have to go back first to the han. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross). He said in his \remarks there last week, 'We got to be truthful,' -and I believe I am quoting him fairly correctly - and he tries to be as truthful as he can in all his endeavours. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WARREN: saying goes. Honest to the core. Honest to the core, as the old Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to be truthful too, and this is why I cannot vote for this budget.

So if the han. member from Bonavista is truthful, I am sure that he cannot vote for a budget that is really taking it out on the sick people. The member knows about the waiting lists. The hon. member for St. John ,'s Centre (Dr. McNicholas) just said a few minutes ago that there are waiting lists of the hospitals. And this budget is causing the waiting lists. Why? It is because it is closing down hospital beds. That is one of the reasons. So, we have to be truthful. Now, Mr. Speaker, the waiting lists at the hospitals - let me reveal something else - MR. HOUSE: Wegot a bed for you. ·MR •. WARREN: MR. HOUSE: MR.

WARREN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WARREN: You got a bed for me, have you? Yes. Where to, on Cowan Avenue? (Inaudible) that before. Well, Sir, I hope that if I happen to go there I will not take the bed that the han. member just got out of. Mr. Speaker, the waiting lists in the hospitals, now who is on them? Let me reveal something to you, Sir. The waiting lists at the hospitals today have approximately 60 per cent Social Assistance recipients on them. 4465

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2087 MJ - 2 MR. W1tRREN : Most of the people on the waiting lis ts are Social Assistance recipients. Do you know one of the reasons, Mr . Speaker? I do not know who is doing it, whether it is the hospitals or doctors or what? AN HON . MEMBER: Why? MR . WARREN: I am going to tell him why. One of the reasons is because if they go into the hospitals they cannot aford to pay for the beds . So, therefore, they will take those in first who can pay. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a hard thing. I can tell you of one hospital in St . John's, Mr.

Speaker, that has a waiting list and of the people on that list from St. John 's and various places in Newfoundland and Labrador, roughly 60 per cent are Social Assista ,nce recipients. Now, this is really cruel. They cannot pay for the hospital bed so they will put them in there eventually. 4466

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2088 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: And the han. member for St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) also spoke about the different hospitals throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. The Corne By Chance Hospital 1 it is a landmark on its own. I had the opportunity there not too long ago to go down and visit my father who was a patient there. And do you know what? 90 per cent of the patients who are in the Corne By Chance Hospital are over six .ty-five years of age.

It seems like the smaller hospitals will take the older people, In the last days of their lives this is where they are going to go, into the Corne By Chance Hospital, when they should be corning into more specialized centres. They should be coming into the larger hospitals in St. John's where they could have specialized care, where there are specialists available. And all it is - I am just using Come By Chance Hospital, Mr. Speaker, as an example - and I am sure the same thing could be said about Placentia or Bonavista or Botwood.

But all they are using those cottage hospitals for is almost like a senior citizens home, another form of a senior citizens horne. I think it is regrettable. Mr. Speaker, I have to follow up on what the han. gentleman for St. John's Centre said earlier- · and that is that it costs roughtly $450 a day for the Health Sciences and roughly $300 a day for St. Clare's and the Grace. I think this is a ridiculous price and I only hope that.this commission that the Minister of Health (Mr.

House) has appointed, has set up, will find out ways to reduce this very high expense, money that could be used probably in other forms of medicine, for example, Mr. Speaker,for student aid. And iet me just quote for you, Your Honour- now, we are talking about 4467

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2088 so -2 MR. WARREN: medicine and all those under student aid. But just let me quote to you, and this ~1as a submission to the provincial government on student aid presented by the Council of the Student Union in May of this year, and here is what it says.,. we are talking about hospital care.-'Under the proposed changes in this budget,in the student aid programme one medical student in three will be disqua.lified from further student loans' • ... ... Now, Mr. Speaker, here we are trying to do o~r best to improve our health care in the Province. The Minister of Health (Mr.

House) has said we have the best health care we ever had and we are going to have better health care but here we are causing I students who are p.lanning to go into 4468

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2089 NM- 1 MR. WARREN: medicine, one out of every three, under the new changes that were brought in by this administration, under the new changes ·.that were brought in by this lousey budget, one out of three will not qualify for loans to further their medical education. Now 1 where are the procedures of this government? On the one hand we are saying we have the best medical care, we are going to improve our medical care, and what do we ·.do? We just slap it in the face of those who are trying to get a medical education. I still do not understand the hon. member for St. John's Centre (Dr.

McNicholas) 1 how he could say on the one hand there is fat in our hospitals, and on the other hand- maybe the han. member 1 a doctor by profession, maybe he did not know this, that one out of every ----·--·-- - three students will not qualify to further their education in medicine. Mr. Speaker, there a few days ago - ana let me see if I can just find it now- the Minister of Finance (Dr.. Collins) - MR. TULK: ·Who? MR. WARREN: The Minister of Finance. MR. TULK: Which fellow is that over there? MR. WARREN : - tabled a reply on retail sales tax ·taken in in 1980 and 1981.

You know this past year,in 1981, two years ago, the han. minister's department had taken in $249 _million in sales tax. That is a good sum of money. AN HON. MEMBER: 1980-what? MR. WARREN: 1981 1 $249 million, a~ost $250 million. MR. TULK: For what? 4469

May 12, 198 3 Tape No . 2089 NM - 2 . MR . WARREN : For retail sales tax . Now,if the minister's department would reduce the sales tax on clothing - DR . COLLINS: $250 million . MR . WARREN: $250 million . Okay . - would reduce the sales tax on clothing, maybe the minister could just give me a rough figure how much we would lose. Roughly, taking the sales tax off clothing - $5 million? DR. COLLINS: If there was no sales tax on clothing? MR. WARREN: ·Yes. Roughly. DR. COLLINS: It would be about $8 million or $9 milli ·on • MR. WARREN : Okay. Say $8 million for argument 's sake.

Say if the minister reduced the sales tax on clothing, that would be a good measure for all of the peopLe in Newfoundland, but at the same time,collect the unpaid taxes from various organizations , various 4470

May 12, 1983 Tape 2090 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: companies in the Province, in particular the beer ·tax. How-many compa~~es have not paid their taxes on alcoholic beverages including beer? I am just wondering - probably the minister could answer me - does the minister think that he could balance up his $8 million if he could collect unpaid taxes? DR. COLLINS: One of our many problems with (inaudible). MR. SIMMS: Time to sit down there, boy! MR. WARREN: No, he is good to me. DR. COLLINS: The point is though some people (inaudible) you would never pick up on them, but you are never going to collect them. MR.

WARREN: Never going to collect them, right. Another thing, I think it is under the rninfster's jurisdiction that when a company goes bankrupt - if myself and the hon. the Speaker are in a company and we go bankrupt, I believe that the Minister of Finance - I think it is his department - should say to the hon. the Speaker and to myself if we go next year to open up a new business, and I open it up with somebody else or Mr. Speaker opens it up with somebody else, then the Minister of Finance should say, 'Okay, So-and-So, you cannot be part of this business until you get debts .from your last business paid off.' DR.

COLLINS: And one of the amendments does carry the authority to collect that this year. MR. TULK ~ No, no. MR. WARREN: So, from now on, after this session is over, we hope that Garfield Warren cannot have one business dissolved and the next month open up another business unless he pays off the debts of his first business. DR. COLLINS: Yes, by and large. 4471

May 12, 1983 Tape 2090 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: Okay. Well, this will be a good measure ·"taken by the Minister of Finance (Dr. collins) and I am look:i.ng forward :to it. DR. COLLINS: You are my greatest fan,. for gosh s.akes. MR, W~N: Oh 1 thank you. Thank you very much. ~ appreciat that, Sir. However, the han. the Minister of F~nance has taken my off my very, very interesting and important topic. The Premier in response to a guest:i,en on the Order Paper a few days ago~ told us that there were 137600 Newfoundland~s who left Newfoundland in 1982.

Well, Mr~ Speaker, do you. thinlt -and the han. member just spoke about the offshore oil deal. Now, Mr. Speaker, I know it is very embarrassing,for you, but I would tn:i,nk, if you wanted to answer me truthfully, that if the han. the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) were left alone last Fall, by now ~e oil deal would have been signed and those 13,600 Newfoundlanders who have gone over to Alberta and Saskatchewan and Manitoba and wherever -do you not think, Mr. Speaker, 4472

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2091 MJ - 1 HR. WARREN: that a lot of those would be back? In the last four years 60,000 Newfoundlanders left Ne,.;foundland. MR. HOUSE: How many carne in? MR. WARREN: Well, the Vremier did not give that. I would say about 10,000. so, here we have 60,000 Newfoundlanders who have left the Province since 1979. Hm'l many do we have coming in? Maybe 10,000, maybe, and I am very doubtful .that there were. But if there were, most of them carne in by birth. Mr.

Speaker, I know my time is getting short,however,I cannot sit down without mentioning the high cost of food in this Province and the way this government casually accepts _that the high cost of food should be as it is in different places. Mr.. Speaker, the hon. the member for Trinity North (Mr. Brett) who is Chairman of this Select Food Committee,. he did not say it right out but he hinted that this government is not doing enough. -. ....... . .. .. M...~. YOUNG: The member for POrt au Port said you are making a fool of yourself, sit down. 1-ffi. HODDER: The member for Port au Port ~ (Mr.

Hodder) thinks you are making a good speech and you are not. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, it is amazing how when a person is talking sometimes he gets him trend of thought disrupted _especially b,.Y a person whose only concern is about the dead and the dying. 'Anyway, !1r. Spea~er, to get bac.k to the cost of food. I believe that this select committee ... by the wa~ I do not think this .select committee is large enough, number one, I think there should be one more member from each side on it. 4473

•,: May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2091 MJ -2 lffi. S L~-~ : Why? ---! MR. WARREN: Because with that you can divide up your c:;ommitte and you can go to more places at the same time, sub-divide your committee. . . . ~~. SHiMS: Yes, but then the members of the other committee do not hear what is being said. MR. WARREN: No, but then you come back with a consensus from all throughout the Province. So, Yr. Speaker, that is one reason why the" select committee should be larger. Now, Mr. Speaker, l have tried this on the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr.

Goudie) but it seems like he is the most difficult minister to try to get a straightforward answer out of. 1-ffi. CALLAN: No, that is Culture, Recreation ana Youth (Mr. Simms). 4474

May 12, 1983 MR. WARREN: assistant or his Tape No. 2092 SD - 1 I understand now h~s special secretary or whatever you call him is listening. Mr. Speaker, government operates stores in . . this Province under an Order in Council which specifies that those stores are t~ provide goods and services to the Native people, that is basically what it says, at the lowest possible price. But we find that government, over the past four years, has increased the price of commodities in Nain by 40 per cent.

The .minister said so in the Estimates Committee, he told us that some· items in the stores have increased as much as 45 per cent - not 40 per cent, 45 per cent. Fishing gear is one example. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please~ I would like to interrupt the han. member to announce that there are no questions for the Late Show. minutes left. MR. BAIRD: MR. CALLAN: The hen. member has five No questions again today. What is the point in asking questions when you do not get any answers? You can ask questions too, you know. we·saw the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) do it. Why do you not do it? MR.

WARREN: I am so excited, Mr. Speaker 4 that you just mentioned the Late Show, because I am sure you recall that las~ Thursday I rose up on the Late Show . and asked a question of the Premier, and all the Premier said was, 'How silly, how silly.' And the Premier concluded hi.s . remarks last Thursday about 5:45 p.m., by saying, ~By. Monday I will have the information for the han. gentleman.· We will always supply information'. Mr. Speaker, Monday has gone, Tuesday has gone, Wednesday has gone, now it i.s Thursday and the answer is still not here. So what is the 4475

May 12, 19 83 Tape No. 2092 so - 2 MR. WARREN : po in t o f asking tbe Pr emier or any other minister questions on the Late Show when the Premier says th~t he will have the answer for the hen. gentleman by Monday and we do not have the answer yet? So this is why, in fact# we are not going to go on the Late Show arty more. It is a waste of our precious time and it only makes a show of the Premier and his Cabinet buddies~ So that is why we are not going to bother the Late Show any more. Now, Mr.

Speaker, some~ing else that I think this government should do is bring in a bill into this House of Assembly to prohibit the advertising of alcohol. You can turn o:n your television like tonight to watch Wayn .e. Gre .tzky and Mike Bossy and all of those people play hockey, and every five or six minutes the 'arinouncer will be breaking for a commercial ., and what will we see on the commercial? Somebody drinking a bottle of Carlsberg or a bottle of Canadian Light. You can turn on your television or radio any time of the day or night and you have the same thing. Mr.

Speaker, I think that there shouid be a law brought in by this government prohibiting 4476

May 12,1983 Tape No. 2093 IB-1 MR. WARREN: the advertising of alcoholic beverages, especially on television. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that this does have an affect, especially on the younger generation. And to look at the member for Humber West (Mr.Baird), it has already had an effect on him. MR. BAIRD: a fool of yourself. Dit down now. You are making You are finished up, you ran out of words. Lie down and go to sleep~ MR.WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, these are the ·kind of measures that han. members on this side of the House would vote for if government brought them in.

We h~ve to safeguard our younger generation and we are not doing it riow because we are letting our television stations exploit people, especially the younger generation. Why are there so many law-breaking tactics by young people in this Province, Mr. Speaker? It is because of alcoho~ and drugs. I would think, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Health {Mr.House} could take probably $1 million from what they saved off the teachers' backs for the next year and have the government sponsor good advertising on television and radio to show the dangerous effects of drugs and alcohol. That would be a positive move.

MR.TULK: The hon.member is wrong,it was not saved off the teachers'backs,it was saved off the childrens' backs. MR. WARREN: Thank you very much.There we· have it again,you see, we cannot go wrong on this side and if we do we are always correctep by our own colleagues. So it was saved off the backs of the children in this Province. Why not give it back to them in the form of advertising and warning the 4477

May 12,1983 Tape No . 2093 IB-2 MR.WARREN: children, warning· the teenagers of the terrible effects of alcohol and drugs on their systems? All the minister needs is $1 million for good television c~mmercials that will offset, l1r . Speaker, the beer commercials that we are sick and tired of seeing . Now, Mr.Speaker, in conclusion I agree with you, Sir, that there is some fat in the hospital budgets, but I have to say again, Mr. SpeakerJ that there are a lot of doctors in this Province who are ripping off the MCP programme . They have patients coming back time and time again for no other reason than to make another $10 or $20 from MCP per visit. 44 78

May 12,1983 Tape No. 2094 ah-1 MR. WARREN: I would think, M~. Speaker, for a good"doctor to participate and to treat his patients well he should spend a considerable amount of time with them, not about twenty seconds or one minute or two minutes as some doctors do. So with that,Mr. Speaker, I have to close and say that I have to be like the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) who said he is truthful. Therefore, Mr.Speaker, I have to say I am truthful too. and no way will my conscience allow me to vote for this budget that is really ripping off the people of Newfoundland and ·Labrador. Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Dr.McNichalas): The han. Minister of Health. Hear, hear! SOME HON•MEMBERS: MR.HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, since the last two speakers were addressing some of the health issue~ I thought it perhaps would be appropriate for me to spend a few moments on that. Your Honour,who is in the Chair now,did speak at the beginning and I appreciate the comments made. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of things that are being said so I want to put a few things to rest.

Every once in a while we hear the Opposition saying that we are balancing the budget on the backs of the poor, the children and the sick. Now, Mr. Speaker, if you look at the budget,most of the expendable money we have is spent in Education, spent in Health and spent in Social Services,so that becomes a trite saying after a time because,i~ you do have to try and save,obviously you have to save in the Health system or the Social Services system or the Education system. So it just becomes a'good catchword. 4479

May 12 ,1983 Tape No. 2094 ah -2 MR.HOUSE: or a phrase for anybody in Opposition to use. First of all, of course, I am speaking on the amendment,and it is quite obvious that I am not going to support that amendment but I would expect the people across the House who brought it in to support it. One of the great things though 1 I say about that, Mr. Speaker, is the fact of tl).e great work we are doing in the Leader of the Opposition's district, where we are putting millions of dollars in a hospital,and here he is supporting a resolution to defeat this particular budget.

I am going to acquaint the people in Port aux Basques with that very fact, that their member,as Leader of the Opposition, is . putting a motion of non-confidence in the gove:rnment against the very hospital that the government is building in his district. I think we are going . to acquaint tll,em. 4400

May 12, 1983 Tape 2095 PK - 1 MR. HOUSE: facts. with these-particular Now, Mr. Speaker, there has been a lot of debate in the last while, particularly in the Question Period, with regard to the Health budget. I have kept saying, of course, ·we kno'v we put 12 per cent above what was given for hospitals last year and that was the biggest single increase in any hospital across Canada, because in the rest of the jurisdictions that I talked to the increase has been less than 10 per cent, going doWn to as low as 6 per cent in one particular case.

But I have not said, and I want to make this clear,that the hospitals are spendthrifts or anything of that .nature. I am saying that the hospitals are doing a good job. And we are acknowledging the fact that, ¥OU know, there would have to be programme cuts and so on. That is why we put into place , Mr. Speaker, a Commission to study this kind of thing. we have to bear in mind- too that all across Canada everybody is suffering the same kind of problem. And that same kind of problem is that there is simply not money enough in times of recession to meet all the legitimate needs that people have.

And it is only a couple of days ago I received a message from the Canadian­ Medical Association complimentin~ us on setting up this Commission to look into the cost of health care. Mr. Speaker, the other main thing that that Commission will do, we hope, is to invite public debate. A lot of people are saying we have high expectations, not only here~ but our aspirations right across this nation are very high, and we have to get people involved in debate about what they want in terms of health care or any other service that we have. That is one of the main 4401

May 12, 1983 Tape 2095 JK - 2 MR,. HOUSE: objectives. We .are very happy to put tl1at in place. Now in late weeks we have been talking with the hospital boards about what they are going to do. And, of course,they are coming up with good propositions, propositions that they think they may be able to live with, not comfortably, but 1 nevertheless, good propositions to live within their means. Then 1of course 1we have put in place a !~onitoring Committee to give us some idea of ·the impact.

So ·if peopl ·e just want to say that I have been downplaying, as a lot of people have, what are the deemed restraints, the facts is we have not. We have put all kinds of mechanisms in place to try and give . ·us all of the information necessary to ensure that there will not be any cutback in health care,· any major impact, let us put it that way. We know there is going to be some. MR. HODDER: MR.. SP EAKER, (.Mc Ni 'chol'as) : member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, this is the second time this afternoon that a member on the government side has been speaking, but yet the government,who is responsible for keeping a quorum,does not have a quorum in the House . Mr. Speaker, are they so weary and tired and worn down and beaten tllat they cannot listen to their own members? MR. SH1NS: . Are you asking for a quorum? You did not ask for a quorum. You rose on a point of order. MR. HODDER: All you have to do is point out there is no quorum,that is all. MR . SIMMS: You have to ask for a quorum. 4482

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2096 NM- 1 MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMl'1S : I am_not sure that the hon. member for Port au Port {Mr. Hodder) said anything or did anything at all. As a matter of fact,he simply raised a·point of order to sort of somehow condemn the members on this side who are not paying attention to the Minister of Health (Mr. House) when he is speaking, and obviously that is totally inaccurate.

I notice the hon. members on the other side, when somebody from that side is speaking, that they have - as a matter of fact he is the only person over there right now. Now, Mr. Speaker, I consider that to be some sort of unmitigated gall. ~bviously if you look around, Mr. Speaker~two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen - there are enough members here for a quorum and there is no point of order at all, Mr. Speaker. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Port au Port. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the former Speaker knows enough about the rules - MR. SIMMS: first point o£ order first. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, you have to rule on the that he knows that all that has to be pointed out in this House is that there is no quorum, and I did point out that there was no quorum. MR. SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. Mr. Speaker, a point of privilege. The han. Minister of Culture, 4403

May 12, 1983 Tape No. 2096 NM - 2 MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, the han. Opposition House Leaoe (Mr. Hodder) '· who is a veteran of this House and should know the rules down pat, should know that he cannot rise on another point of order until Your Honour has ruled on the initial point of order that he raised. MR. HODDER: To that point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : (McNi 'cholas): The han. member for Port au Port. MR.

H:ODDER: The hon. ·former Speaker, tite minister, knows that a point of privilege should never be raised in this House except under very severe circumstances and he is flaunting the rules of this House, a person who upheld them with 1I thought, great dignity for a number of years, is now flaunting the rules of the House. MR. SIMMS: I would rule there is no point of privilege and no point of order either, Mr. Speaker, and get on with it. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege. There is no point of privilege. To the point of order, I was . not quite clear on what the hen. member was raising.

At the present time .thexe is a quorum and I call on the hen. Minister o