Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 10 (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-10

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Pres enting Petitions ... Read ing and Receivi ng Petitions ... Presenting Repor ts by Standing and Special Comm ittees ... MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Com mu nity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr . Speaker, with leave I beg to table the Annual Report of the Department of Commu nity Services and Correc tions for the calendar year 19 81. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Govern ment Services. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Annu al Report of the Depar tment of Government Services, and while I'm on my feet, Sir, I wish to also table the Depar tment of Hig hways and Transportation Report. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Consu mer & Corpor ate Affairs. HON. EUGENE KOSTYRA (Seven Oaks): I beg leave to table the report, pursuan t to

Section 13 , of The Trade Practices Enqu iry Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney -General. HON. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the 11 th Ann ual Rep ort of the Law Reform Commi ssion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Ene rgy and Mines. HON. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, with leave I'd beg to table a numb er of reports: first, the Annual Repor t of the Man itoba Development Corporation for the year ended March 31s t, 19 81; second, the Ann ual Report of the Man itoba Hydro-Electric Board for the year ending March 31s t, 19 81; the Ann ual Report of the Man itoba Mineral Resources Lim ited for the year 19 80-81; the Ann ual Report of the Man itoba Mineral Resou rces Division for the year ending March 31s t, 19 81 and the Ann ual Report of the Man itoba Data Services for 19 80-81. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. PENNER introdu ced Bill No. 13 ,

An Act to amend The Publi c Trustee Act. 247 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honour able mem bers to the gallery where we have two school groups. I am pleased to note the attendanc e is 65 students of Chur chill High School under the direction of Mr. Saleski. This school is in the constituency of Osborne. Also, we have 25 student s, Gr ade 11 standing of the Mur doch MacKay Col legiate under the direction of Mr. Bruce Rand. The school is in the constituency of the Honour able Memb er for Transcona, the Honour able Minister of Energy and Mines.

On behalf of all the mem bers, I bid you welcome this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Arth ur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker , in view of the stateme nts ma de by the First Minister Nove mb er 5th prom ising the beef industry and the beef producers in the Province of Manitoba, a beef supp ort program - to the First Minister, when could we expect the details of that program to be annou nced? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker , as the honour able memb er I am sur e recognizes, the qu estion is better dir ected to the Min ister of Agricultur e. MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Agricultur e. HON. BILL URUSKI (Interlake): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We hope to make that annou ncement in the next several weeks. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Arth ur. MR. DOWNEY: A supplem entary, Mr. Speaker, to the Honour able Minister, can we expect tha t program to be somewhat along the lines of the Saskatchewan program? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I hope the honour able memb er will be a bit patient and await the annou nce ment.

We are working as ha rd as we can and we are still receiving subm issions from producers and trying to make their views and incorporate them in the over all plan that we are develop ing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Pembina. MR. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker , that imme diate action was prom ised by the First Minister dur ing the election campai gn, and that is now th ree-and-a half months old; in view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Agricultur e when add ressing a group of farmers at Oak Bl uff on Janu ary 13th at the Agricul-

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 tural Ou tlook Conference in which he prom ised that a Beef Income Insur ance Plan would be annou nced within four to six weeks. and that time has now expir ed; now that we have heard several weeks agai n for four-and-a-half months; when can the beef pro du cers of Mani toba expect some action from the Min ister of Agricultur e? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Memb er for Rob lin Russell. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-Russell): Mr. Speaker. I thank you.

I wonder could the Min ister of Agricultur e or the First Minister advise the House how they can acco unt for the lack of funds for the beef industry in the Estimates that were tabled last night? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker. there are other aven ues in which the funds will be voted upon and brou ght into the Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, what avenue is the Min ister referring to? MR. URUSKI: If the memb er would like to discuss that dur ing the Estima tes, he will have an opp ortun ity to, Mr. Speaker. MR.

DOWNEY: The qu estion is, will there be money provided for the beef prod ucers of the Provi nce of Manitoba? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I indicated that the pro gram will be an nounced. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for La Verendrye. MR. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): A qu estion to the Minister of Education, I wonder if she could inform me as to the prog ress that is being made with regard to the expansion of New Bothwe ll School in the Hanover School Division? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon our able Mini ster of Educ ation. HON. MAUREEN HEMPHILL (Logan): Mr.

Speaker, the addition req uired or asked for New Bothwe ll School was appr oved by me in the early new year. I thi nk it incl udes a gym nasium plus some additional facilities. Since they received the ap proval. they have come back to the Depar tment of Education with their plans for the school and those plans are now a little bit cha nged from the original request. In other words. they have made some changes in space other than the ap proval that they received. so we have set up a meet ing between the Depar tment of Education and the School Division to discuss the differences.

It basical ly has been ap proved . it's on track. and it's a ma tter of ironing out the differences between the ap proval and the plans that are now before us. MR. BANMAN: Thank you. Mr. Speaker. I thank the 248 Minister for that answer. Another qu estion to the Minister of Consumer and Corpor ate Affai rs, could he inform the Hous e, or con firm that the Premier's Legislative Assistant. the Memb er for Ell ice, is working on rent control legisla tion in his department? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Consu mer and Corpor ate Affairs. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. Mr. Speaker. MR.

BANMAN: To the same Minister a supplemen tary qu estion. Mr. Speaker. Since the Prem ier's Legis lative Assistant is working on material pertaining to the Minister's Depar tment, could he inform the House whether or not that Legislative Assistant to the Pre mier has access to files dealing with his depar tment? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker. yes the Legislative Assistant assigned to me by the Pr emier does have access to fi les and discussions related to the pro posed Rent Control Program . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Pem bina. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is for the First Min ister.

In view of the fact that the Premier has stated that he will not ask the Memb er for Ell ice to drop his legal involvement with clients in the Logan area, will the First Minister suspend the Memb er for Ell ice as his Legislative Assistant wh ile he is undertak ing this legal act ion involving the govern ment of the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker. I thank the Honour able Memb er for Pembin a for the qu estion. The Memb er for El lice received a very clear letter from the Legisla tive Cou nsel, Mr.

Tallin, in respect to whether or not there wou ld be any conflict of interest on his

part in acting as a solic itor. The answer was very clear, there wou ld be no conflic t of interest. Sub sequ ently. the Memb er for Ell ice has received a letter from the Chief Legal Cou nsel pertaining to his role as Legislative Assistant. Again the answer was there was no confl ict of interest. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker. a supp leme ntary qu es tion to the First Min ister. A similar situat ion, I thi nk. paralle led the Constitution where the Supr eme Court said it was legally right and morally wrong. and in view of the fact. Mr.

Speaker. that a vast majority of Man ito bans are concerned about the potential confl ict of interest that exists between the Premier 's Legislative Assistant, on one ha nd ha ving access to informa tion. now representing a group of citizens who are under taking action against the provincial govern ment.

In view of that obvious concern by Manitobans. and in view of the fact that in the Throne Speech confl ict-of interest legislation was prom ised by this government, would the First Minister not reconsider his position and consider the suspe nsion of his Legislative Assist ant whilst he is acting on behalf of that group of citi zens in Logan; a tem porary susp ension, Mr. Speaker.

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 not a permanent suspens ion? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Honour able Memb er for Pemb ina mu st not have been present in the House last week when I indicated that the Memb er for Ell ice was not privy to the files of the Land Acquisition Branch and I thought tha t was made very clear, and I believe it was also made clear by the Minister respon sible for Ur ban Affairs insofar as access to files. No, Mr.

Speaker, if we were to apply that rule, I would have to as well prohibit the Mem ber for Elli ce from participating in Provincial Jud ges' Court, when indeed his is rep resenting accused individuals in respect to actions brought by the Attorney-General. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Natural Resou rces. HON. AL MACKLING (St. James): Mr. Speaker, last week the Honour able Memb er for Swan River asked me a qu estion about the plight of fish trapped beh ind a dam on the Birch River, I believe. This matter had also been brough t to my atte ntion by the Memb er for The Pas.

I have made inqu iry, and it is a problem that exists in respect to fish tha t go upstream from the dam, are trapped within the Saskeram Wildl ife waters, and due to a lack of oxygen dur ing the late winter and early spring, there is some loss. As a result of tha t continual probl em, the depar t ment has opened it up to fishing, but there has been no one take up the fishing there because the fish are small pike predo minantly of relatively low value. That is a continuing problem, but the depar tment indicates that they do not consider to be a major problem. While I'm on my feet, Mr.

Speaker , I would like to also respond to the concerns of the Memb er for Lake side who requ ested confirmation from me of a report as to some illegal trafficking in wildli fe, fish and game. I'd indicated at the time tha t I bel ieved that it was a confidential document, that the matter was a prelim i nary -a s I understood, it was a prelimi nary investiga tive report upon the basis of which the depar tment expected that there would be further investigation and likely criminal prosec ution and conviction hopefully.

I regret to advise that the matter did beco me public prematurely and the qu estion now is wide open. I am advised that as a result of the prel iminary investiga tions th ere has been one ch arge laid and one plea of guil ty entered. However, as a result of the widespread publ icity about this now, it is not likely that we will be as successful in respect to further ch arges. I migh t say that we're still going to pur sue the matter; it is a very important matter, but I would have preferred of course that the investigations that were ongoing had not been made publi c. It's certainly within the publi c domain.

If this come s out, we have to indicate that it has occu rred, but in this kind of matter we would like to work successful ly, quietly until we get convictions. It is a very real problem; we're seized with it and we're acting on it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, just a 249 further qu estion to the Honour able Minister for Natu ral Resou rces and perhaps he can help me. It's really for my clarifica tion.

Can the Honour able Minister tell me that when sev eral th ousand fish die when th ere is a Conservative Minister around, it attracts such notoriety for several weeks; papers, pictur es, television coverage and I appr eciate the Minister's explana tion. They die of, unfortuna tely, natur al causes; lack of oxygen. When the same thing happens a year later with an NDP Minister, can the Minister enlig hten me why it doesn't attract any television coverage, any front page pic tures in the media? Is th ere some difference? I think we both agree the fish were dead last year and the fish are dead this year.

Is that not the case? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. MA�KLING: Mr. Speaker , th ere have been many answers already suggested to the honour able member and I don't know whether I could improve on them except to say that because he is a mag netic personal ity, the media are attracted to him -(l nterjection) like moths to a flame. I should have also added, Mr. Speaker, tha t th ere are copies of this pre limi nary report available thr ough the Clerk's Office. MR. ENNS : Mr. Speaker , one further que stion to the Hono urable Minister.

In view of the fact that our Esti mates are coming up first in Natur al Resources, I'm aware that the report comm issioned by the previous admin istration on the wild rice industry has received some lim ited distribution. Would the Minister prepare to send over a few copies of the report to the memb ers of the Op position? I haven't received any yet; it would be helpful in the consideration of his Estimates. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I don't think I would have any problem with that. I will consult with staff and see whether they have any problem with it.

I believe that it may be of assistance to me to have my learned friends giving some constructive criticism to me dur ing the course of the Estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Virden. MR. HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is the Honour able First Minister: since the Honour able Memb er for Ell ice does not have access to files of the Land Acq uisition Branch, can the the Honourable First Minister tell us what other departments the honour able mem ber does not have access to? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in respect to the qu estion posed by the honour able memb er, the Memb er for Elli ce does not have access to files pertai ning to indi vidual case issues, whether it be Land Acq uisition Branch or in other areas. He is deal ing with the qu es tion of rent control in a general way, dealing with the matter of mul ticultur alism as well , but th ose are very important and very Worthwhile functions; the Hon ourable Memb er for Elli ce is doing an exce llent job.

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 Mr. Speaker. I don't believe that Man itobans would want me to prohibit the Memb er for El lice from enga g ing in the development of pol icy in respect to th ose areas, partic ularly when we have received legal advice from the chie f legal cou nsel of the Province of Mani toba tha t ther e is no conflic t of interest insofar as the Honourable for Ell ice. MR. GRAHAM: A supplem entary qu estion to the Honour ab le First Minister: does the Fi rst Minister have access to all the files of the various departments of this government? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR.

DAVID R. (DAVE) BLAKE (Minnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is directed to the oh he's gone the Min ister in cha rge of Transportation Services. I'l l defer until he returns to the Chamb er, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honour able Mem ber for Minnedosa now have his qu estion? MR. BLAKE: I'll defer it, Mr. Speaker, until the Minis ter retur ns because I'll just get the usual runar ound. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Com munity Services. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday, the Honour ab le Memb er for Emer son complai ned that his name was omitted from the telep hone directory for eastern Manitoba as among the MLAs. Inde ed it is and I notice for some strange reason the MLA for Morris is listed in the eastern directory of MTS and agai n, I'm not sure why that is. However, I notice, and this was indeed pub lished in March, 19 82, but I notice in Septe mber of 19 81 the Hono urable Mem ber for Em erson does ap pear in the Pembin a Valle y Tele pho ne Directory as being the MLA for Eme rson.

I'm pleased to note that he is listed also in the eastern directory under the town of Grun thal, which is I believe his residence. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, I think the MTS are going to have to become more familiar with the provincial con stituency boundar ies in this province, so I'm directing the MTS to take a very close look at th ese bounda ries to make sure that MLAs are listed in their proper regions.

However, I migh t add that in this case the honour able memb er represents a constituenc y that happens to be in two telephone regions and ther efore I'm pleased to advise him we'll make sure he's in both directories next time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Pem bina. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister responsible for MTS carry on the pol icy of the previous four years and undertake to write to each and every recipient of the eastern regional telep hone directory a personal letter from the Minister responsi ble for MTS indicating tha t the MLA for Eme rson is Mr.

Albert Driedger, and that they can reach him at - Mr. Speaker, I hear some protestations from the mem bers 250 opposite. That is only a legitimate requ est to make sur e that the constituent s of the constituency of Emerson have access to their MLA, and I would ask him if he would do tha t for the residents of the eastern region, and particularly the residents of Eme rson constituency. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, sur ely the Honour able Mem ber for Pembina is not serious because he knows, or he should know, that th ere are 33,000 peo ple who receive the eastern telep hone directory and he's asking us to pay first-class mail, 30 cents per letter, that's 33,000 letters, I say tha t is a considerable amoun t of money and I think we're going to be a little more careful with the taxpayer s' money than the Memb er for Pem bina suggests we should be. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon our able Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Yes, thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I see the Minister has retur ned to his seat so I will start afresh and direct my que stion to the Min ister responsible for Transpor tation. I wonder if the Minister can inform the House if he is still carr ying on with the policy estab lished by the previous admin istration with respect to dispos ition of agricultur al lands or lands tha t were previously in the abando ned rail right-of-ways. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Govern ment Services. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I wou ld like to indicate to the memb er that we have asked for review of that policy in the na ture of information to us in order to have an upda te as to wha t was transp iring and from that point we will then decide what we want to do from there on. MR. BLAKE: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, ther e are some 400 or 500 applic ations on file now; I wonder if the Minister could inform the House and the people of Man itoba just wher e th ose appl ications stand or wha t process will be carried on to see them to a succ essful conclusion. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to advise the Memb er for Minnedosa that when we are clear on the direction that we want to take after havi ng the analysis done, we will make tha t annou ncement dur ing the cour se of Estimates review or in response to a qu es tion, or wha tever. MR. BLAKE: We ll yes, Mr.

Speaker, the final supp le mentary: the re are qu ite a quite a numb er of those appl ications that were made in compl iance with a signed deal with the previous admin istration and they relate to property contai ning, say, elevators that have been sold for considerable sum s of funds and they are una ble to disbur se th ose funds until they conclude tha t deal and obtain title to tha t land so that people tha t pur cha sed the elevator property are abl e to obtain title to it or move the elevator to another site; and it's causi ng some considerable problems in some areas.

I wonder if he could give me some cl arification to take to those people on wha t time span the y migh t

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 be looking for before this govern ment finally makes up his mind tha t own ing those rail beds by individuals is not all that bad maybe. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, we haven't made the deci sion that it is good or bad to have th ose parcels con veyed to individuals who have appl ied for them. We are merely reviewing wha t has been the policy and from tha t we will announ ce a policy of our own.

In the mean time, if ther e are cases that provide some hard ship or have hard ship conditions because of those matters referred to me by the Mem ber for Minnedosa, I'm prepared to look at them at on individual basis. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb erf or Nia kwa. MR. ABE KOVNATS (Niakwa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my qu estion to the Minister of Natur al Resou rces: can the Honour able Minister advise if the area in the Sand ilands Forest Reserve, south of Hwy. 201 between Menisino and Pi ney is bei ng opened up for timb er cu tti ng operations? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Natur al Resources. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I appr eciate that the honour able memb er did give me notice of his inten tion to ask a qu estion in respect to th is. I have informa tion from the depar tment; I don't know whether it will satisfy the honour able mem ber, but I will give you it in all the detail that it has been provided to me. A specific block of forest was set aside for th ose wish ing to cut fence posts in the area off Highw ay 201 between Menisino and Piney.

In order to su pervise cutting, it is usual practice to presc ribe the block in which cutters may operate. This winter the road was impassa ble due to snow. Two or thr ee cutter s, having some urgency, were al lowed to cut elsewhere. We spec ula ted that a few cutters who had previously been constrained to the block noticed these perm ittees cu t ting outside it. Later, dur ing the cur rent year, 1, 15 0 perm its for cedar and tamarack fence posts were issued; people came from as far away as Boissevain. We would usu ally snowplow the road; in this case, they didn't snow plow the road this past winter.

Seven perm ittees were permitted to go into an alternative area selected by the Regional Conservation Officer in order to elimi nate the cost of plowi ng and the name s are given of those perm ittees. In Decem ber, 1981, Forestry wrote to one gentleman who ha d requ ested 50 cords of bir ch fuel and he was told to go 30 miles to a fuel cutting bl ock near Wood ridge. He was told tha t if he wanted only a little for his hou se, he could take it near home. It may be that there was a complaint by some of the people that they were being req uired to cut in places tha t other s had been al lowed to do.

It appear s that because of the heavy snowfa ll, the fact tha t the road had now been plowed, ther e was some discretion exercised. There may have been complai nts tha t some people seem to have had some benefits that other s didn't. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Niakwa. 251 MR. KOVNATS: I would like to thank the Honour able Minister of Natur al Resou rces for his thor ough reply on the qu estion tha t I had given him notice of yester day.

I wou ld just like to say thank you very much for his concern and I would hope tha t all people will be treated fairly in the area and not one given more pref erence than any body else. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Morris. MR. CLAYTON MANNES$ (Morris): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a qu estion for the Minister of Highw ays. At this point, have contracts been signed with lan downers for pur ch ase of their property for the pur pose of the four -la ning of Highway 75? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Government Services. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I didn't qu ite get the qu es tion.

Was it whether or not we have signed any con tracts? Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe some of the tran sac tions ha ve been com pl eted with respect to acqu isition of right-of-way for the twinning of High way 75. MR. MANNE SS: Could the Minister of Highways con firm that The Land Acq uisition Branch of government is continuing to pur chase land for this pu rpose? MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Kir k field Park . MRS. GERRIE HAMMOND (Kirkfield Park): My ques tion is to the Min ister of Fina nce.

In the state men t on the Estima tes yesterday, he mentio ned that the $2 million special grant to be provided to Winnip eg School Division No. 1 was not includ ed. Could he advise the House where he has made provision for this item? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finan ce. HON. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There is no provision made in those Esti mates for that $2 million. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILM ON (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, my qu es tion is for the Min ister of Educa tion.

Will the Minister now confirm tha t the $46.5 million increase in the Educa tion Sup port Program plus the $12.4 million special grants plus other smalle r miscell aneous spe cial grants referred to in her recent press release, of that amount only $42 million will come out of the Provincial Gener al Revenues while an additional , appr oximately $20 million will come out of the Foun dation Levy which is assessed agai nst property taxes in the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Educat ion.

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, the spec ific informa tion will be made available on Monda y when we are giving com plete information about mill rate appl ica tion and where the money is coming from. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker. in view of the fact that Cabi net, by Order in Council, last Wednesday passed or set the differential in the mill rate between the farm and residential property and the com mercial and industrial property at 38 mill s, can she now share with us wha t the specific mill rate figures are, since it's obviously available? MRS.

HEMPHILL: That informati on will be made pu b lic on Monday, Mr. Speaker. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in the Estimates which were released last evening, the amount of increase for the co mmuni ty col leges funding in the province shows an increase of 3 percent over last year. I'm wondering in view of the numb er of references to increased commit ments towa rds training and espe cially in areas of greatest em ployment need in this province, what her justification is for this amount of increase? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I expect that the hon ourable memb er is referring to the difference in the increases awarded the universities this year and the amount of the increase awarded to col leges. There is a reason for it as th ere is a reason for all of the sizes of increases that we are awar ding. Coll eges were treated very well over the period of the last four years.

They received sub stantial increases and were al lowed to main tain their program s and they were not put in a position of havi ng to cut back on eq uipment , faci lities and teach ing the way the univer sities were, so the reason is that the y received good funding in the previous years. The universities were cut back very drastically and tha t is the reason why we have made the awards that we have. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (B.ud) SHERMAN (fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker , my qu estion is to the Hono urable Minister of Health and I would ask him whe ther the govern ment is intending to proceed with the addition of two floors on Concordia Hospital in Wi nnipeg? I ask thi s qu estion, Mr. Speaker , independent of the Estima tes Review because it was a project that had been announ ced by the previous government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Hea lth. HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are a numb er of programs tha t ha ve been annou nced tha t are ready and a deci sion will be made fairly soon.

We're looking at a plan and as soon as possible it'll be annou nced to the House. MR. SHERMAN: A suppleme ntary, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise whether he's intending in the introductory process to the review of his Estimates 252 whi ch is only a matter of a few weeks away to annou nce a capital program for 19 82-83 for the Department and the Health Services Comm ission? MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wou ld hope tha t it would be ready by then. I certa inly have no objection to announcing it at that time or if it's ready before that, to make an annou ncement if it acco mm o dates the mem bers. MR.

SHERMAN: A final sup pleme ntary, Mr. Speaker , can the Minister confirm that the addition of two floors to Concordia is one of the projects that is being consi dered in the preparation of that capital program? MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, all the programs that have advanced to that stage are being seriously considered. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Mem ber for Assiniboia. MR. RURIK (Ric) NORDMAN (Assiniboia): Mr . Speaker, my que stion is to the Honour able Minister of Healt h. What is the futu re of Deer Lodge Hospital?

Is there a pha sing out plan by the Veterans' Admin istra tion, a phasi ng in of the Manitoba Health Services? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Healt h. MR. DESJARDINS: For a numb er of years now, as the former Minister could tell his colleag ues, there have been discussions between the Federal Govern ment, who have been quite anxious to turn all of th ose vete rans' hospitals to the provinces. The negotiation is still going strong. I think we are getting a little closer. I have met with mem bers of the Union, the Veterans, they have some concern.

I have offered to meet with them and the Federal Govern ment if they wish, and I hop e, I cert ainl y ho pe, that th ere will be an ann ouncement dur ing my Estimates or earlier if possible. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Roblin Russell. MR. MCKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a qu estion for the Honour able Minister of Mun icipal Affai rs, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker , the small village of Shell mouth is plan ning and actively promoti ng their Centen nial this sum mer.

Under the present pol icy, the little vi llage doesn't qual ify for a centenn ial grants, because the rural mu nicipality of Shel lmouth wasn't incorpor ated until 19 07 and as a result will not cele brate their centennial until the year 2007. I wonder is ther e some way tha t the pol icy can be varied for a village such as She llmo uth, who very much would like to celebr ate their centen nial this year, which is there 100th anniversary? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Munici pal Affairs. HON. A.R. (PETE) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreci ate the Memb er for Roblin-Ru ssell asking that qu estion. We have sent out centennial grants to several com mun ities this year, including

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 some of the larger urban centr es as well, but many others. It is correct that the town perhap s will ha ve to come under the muni cip al ity which is not incorpor ated - is it 19 07? We shall take a look at that and see if anything can be done. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Pemb ina. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I have a qu estion for the Minister responsible for Man itoba Telephone Sys tem. Can the Minister indicate whe ther the System is contem plating any pur cha se and/or building of addi tional office space this coming year? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er of Com mu nity Services. MR. EVANS: We ll, Mr. Speaker, I could take tha t ma t ter as notice, but it may be better left to the time that we have MTS before us and we can discuss these items in deta il. MR. ORCHARD: We ll, I would prefer the first course, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister could provide me with tha t informati on, because it may be some time before we deal with the Annual Repor t of the Manitoba Tele phone System. ORDERS OF THE DAY SECOND READING - GOVERNMENT BILLS Bill NO. 3 -AN ACT TO AMEND

AN ACT RESPECTING THE OPERATION OF

SEC. 23 OF THE MAN. ACT IN REGARD TO STATUTES MR. PENNER presented Bill No. 3,

An Act to amend

An Act Respect ing the Operation of

Section 23 of The Man itoba Act in Regard to Statutes for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, all of this is in a sense consequent up on the Fo rest decision of the Supr eme Cour t of Canada in 19 79 and since then the Op posi tion, then the Govern ment, and now ourselves are moving to implement both the spirit and the letter tion 23 secof The Manitoba Act, which has constitutional significance .

Section 23 of the Act, of course, is now well known, it calls forthe Acts of the Legislatu re to be printed and publis hed in both offical langua ges, namely, French and English. Su bseq uently in 19 80, the Act to wh ich this Bill has reference, that is

an Act respecting the operation of

Section 23, was passed and among other provisions,

Section 4(2) provided a method by which the transla tions could be certified and the present

section pro vided for the Speaker of the House to designate a person to certify the accu racy of any transla tions of Acts after they have been passed in the House in the other of ficial lang uage. Until now, the practise has been for the Speaker to designate a person to certify the accu racy of transla tion when the French version of

an Act is ready for publ ication. To date most of the certification have 253 been provided by Mr. Norman Bel lair, who has been on loan to the Govern ment of Manitoba from the Office of the Secretary of State for Canada. The problem is this, that where the Speaker is absent from the province on vacation or on Assembly busine ss, or wh ere the Speaker is unable to make a designation because of illness, the amend ment would perm it the Deputy Speaker to auth orize the designa tion of a person to certify the accu racy of a translat ion.

The second problem is add ressed in this way; that on dissol ution of the House for an electi on, until the first meeting of the next Legislature there is legally speak ing neither a Speaker nor a Deputy Speaker. The proposed amendm ent, wh ich is techn ical in natur e but imp ortant, wou ld perm it the Attorney Gen eral to designate a person to certify the accu racy of transla tions dur ing that period of time, that hiatus between one Legislature and the next when there is legally no Speaker or no Deputy Speaker. I would pass my notes on that to the House Leader Oppo site. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for St. Nor bert. MR. MERCIER: I move, seconded by the Honour able Mem ber for Fort Garry tha t the debate be adjour ned. MOTION presented and carried. Bill NO. 4 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE GARAGE KEEPERS ACT MR. PENNER presented Bill No. 4,

An Act to Amend the Garage Keeper s Act for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, the amend ments to The Garage Keepers Act are in the nature of housekeeping amendm ents.

Section 13 of the Act is to be repealed. This is the

section which req uires a garage keeper to post a copy of The Garage Keeper s Act in at least thr ee conspicuous places in his or her or its garage in order to be entitled of the benefits under the Act. The right of a garage keeper to a lien is reasonably well known in the communi ty, however, it appear s that very few people are aware of the provision in the Act now for the posting of the sign. Very few garages, in fact, post the sign and my department is not aware of any complaint that has ever been received in this regard.

Occasio nally one may be looking for a fan belt or something, and see some greasy old piece of paper and that's about the effect of that provision. The new Su bsection 13. 1 (2) merely adds clau se (

c) to the pres ent su bsecti on. It's just to make the effect of the sub sect ion a little clearer in terms of the situation when an owner of a vehicle, with respect to which ther e's a claim of a lien, can pay money into court in order to obtai n the vehicle until the dispute between the owner of the vehicle and the garage keeper has been settled. The amendm ent to Subsection 13.I MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I rem ind mem bers tha t on second reading it is deba te in principl e, a

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 me mb er should not refer to specific sections or items of the Act. MR. PENNER: Right. The other portion of the Bill was requ ested by His Honour. Chie f Cou nty Cour t Judge A. R. Philp, and points out that the present wording req uires that a trial be held before monies paid into court can be paid out. In particul ar, the present word ing does not perm it for payment of monies out of court wher e an action is com menced, but not defended by the owner of a vehicle.

In a recent case - this sort of empha sizes the reason for these proposed am end ments - a garage keeper obtained what is called a default ju dgment, that is in fact had a judgm ent, but was req uired to make a separate motion before the cour t in order to have the money tha t had been paid into court paid out to the garage keeper. Now with this am end ment, the partic ular judge, who would have noted defa ult and given a default judgment, wou ld at the same time be ab le to order that the monies in cour t be paid out to the garage keeper without the necessity of a separate motion.

So the y're hou sekeeping amend ments to accompl ish these up dates in the Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Memb er for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When we are amending The Garage Keeper s Act, ther e is some thing that caus es me a little bit of concern. It's dealing with some other statutes which probably come under the Minister of Consu mer and Corporate Affairs deal ing with the privilege to stay open for bus iness on particular days that have normally been set aside for most bu sinesses to be closed.

Now I bel ieve there is an exception for people in the garage service industry on days such as the !I th of Nove mb er and things of that nature. I wonder if the Honourable Attorney-General in bri nging forward his proposed amend ments has cleared any legal tech nical ity tha t migh t occur, whether he has cle ared it with the Min ister of Consu mer and Corpor ate Affairs with respect to the identifi cation.

Ju st because you take down the placards, does tha t do anything to the problems that migh t occur with a person opera ting a garage and his abili ty to stay open on certa in days tha t are designated as holida ys and normal closing of busi ness? Those are some of the qu estions I pose on this Bill. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Hono urable Mem ber for Lakeside, tha t the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL N0.5 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LAW OF PROPERTY ACT MR. PENNER presented Bill No. 5,

An Act to amend The Law of Property Act for second read ing. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The pro- 254 posed am end ment to The Law of Pro perty Act is to give ju risdiction to the Cou nty Cour t to hear cases of partition and sale of land. Presently under The Law of Property Act, only the Cour t of Qu een's Bench has jur isdiction in the se matters.

Now, partition and sale wh ich is a tech nical term to cover the situation in which property jointly held by two persons can be either sold or trans ferred in order to divide the inter ests, partition and sale is frequently requir ed when deal ing with separation of proper ty under The Marital Property Act. The Cou nty Court has general jur isdic tion for all other matters und er The Marital Property Act.

But where partition and sale is required to com plete the division of property between two persons separating and bringing proceedings under The Mari tal Property Act, as things now are, an appl ication is required to the Cour t of Queen' s Bench, a separate appl ication. It takes time, and it's costly and it's unnecessary.

By extending the jur isdiction of the Cou nty Court as this proposed am endment would do to permit the Cou nty Cour t Jud ge seized of the issue as between the parties to deal with partition and sale of land, the Cou nty Cour t will be able to deal with all matters under The Marital Property Act. So that in the one hea ring, the matter s between the party can be dis posed of. The proposed amend ment will give jur isdic tion to the Cou nty Cour t, of the Cou nty Cour t district in which the land is situa ted or the Cou nty Cour t of a district in which the action has alr eady been brough t. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Memb er for Tur tle Mountain, that debate be adjourned. Motion presented and carried. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: Wo uld the Govern ment House Leader indicate the next item of business? MR. PENNER: The motion tha t was before the House last night, br ought in by the Minister of Financ e, was that the Ho use do, at its next sitting, move into Com mittee of Supply.

Now I don't know what the intention of the mem bers opposite is with respect to that motion, whether they are prepared to consider that this is the next sitting, or consider that by the natur e of the motion that we are going to move into Supply tom morrow. MR. SPEAKER: If the Minister wishes to proceed with that item I will call it for debate. MR. PENNER: Right, then I will call for the qu estion on the motion that was introduced by the Minister of Finance yesterday that the House do now move into Comm ittee of Supply. MR.

SPEAKER: On the adjou rned motion of the Min ister of Finan ce. it was moved tha t the Ho use will at its next sitting, resolve itself into a Comm ittee to con-

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 sider the Sup ply to be granted to Her Majesty. The Honour able Memb er for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Thank you. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to take this oppor tun ity to deal with a nu mb er of items tha t I think are of considerable importance to the people of Manitoba, and they are of consider able importance to this House as wel l. I start first of all, Mr.

Speaker, with the man ner in which the Min ister of Financ e has drawn together and presented his Estima tes, both to this House and to the public, because it is in my knowledge unpr ecedented tha t he should have presented them the Hono ur able Minister should have presented them in the way that they have been. I begin, Sir, with the press release that the Hono ur able Minister has put out which indicated that there would be a 14.4 percent increase in spe nding.

He was, I might add, qu ite successful in that presentation of spen ding because of cour se the Wi nnipeg Sun head lines this morning tha t exp enditur es or spending will be up by 14.4 percent. Mr. Speaker, the exp enditur es have never before been presented in that way. The correct way, and I am certain the way that his depar tmental staff presented them to him, was tha t the y wou ld be presented as print-over-pri nt, which simply means the amount of money that was initially presented to the Legislature last year plus the amoun t passed in Supple mentary Supply.

Tha t is the only way to make a truly com para ble presentation. What the Minister has done is try to com pare the total projected exp enditur es for 1981-82 with his initial expenditu res for 1982-83, and he has deliberately left items out of the Estima tes tha t were tabled before this House last night. When he was asked today, "Where was provision made for the $2 milli on Special Gr ant to Winnip eg 1 ?" he said, "No provision has been made." Yet tha t announc ement was made in this House some days ago by the Minister of Educ ation. They knew, Mr.

Speaker, they knew that ther e wou ld be fu nds req uired f:)r that grant and the y were not presented in the spendin g Estimates table d in this House last night. Mr. Speaker, that is the sort of beh av iour on the part of the Min ister of Fina nce that is simply unacceptable to the mem bers on this side of the Ho use and I think it should be unacceptable to the publi c as well. We also know that the First Minister dur ing the elec tion and other mem bers of his party were promising imme diate assistance to the beef produ cers of this province.

Th ere was not one nickel presented in the Estima tes table d in this House last night, Mr. Speaker, yet the Min ister stands up in the House today and says the re will be a plan. Mr. Speaker, if the y know tha t there will be money spent on a Beef Incom e Sta biliza tion Plan, then provision for tha t plan should be ma de in the Estimates tab led in this House.

Instead, the public is mislead with this type of press release which indicates a 14.4 percent increase in spending, which when put on a com parable basis to previous years, simply on the figures alone brings it to 16.9 percent, and if we begin to add in the items tha t these honour able mem bers have prom ised and have not incl uded in their Estima tes, then the figure begins to go much 255 higher, Mr. Speaker. I think that we are entitled to an explanation at the very least from the Minister of Finance for that type of action.

We have seen how previous releases of information have been done by that Minister in the short period of time that they have been government. If this is an indication of the conseq uenc e of moving the Informa tion Services Branch from the Depar tment of Govern ment Services, wh ere it operated in an impar tial way to the First Minister's Office, whe re it now repo rts to his top pol itical gun, if this is the type of action that we're going to get, Mr. Speaker, the n it's unacceptable, and I tell you that the Estima tes table d before us last night give me some concern.

They give me some concern abou t how the Informa tion Services and other information disseminating groups are going to be used in this government, Mr. Speaker, because within the se Estim ates that were tabled last night, I dare say that the single largest increase falls with in the Executive Council and that is a 824 percent increase in the Advertising Audit office with in the Fi rst Minister's office, it goes up from $128,300to $1,057,300.00 What do they do, Mr. Speaker? What is listed under there says that it provides an advertising med ia buying service for all government departments and agencies.

Tha t's their priority, Mr. Speaker, an 824 percent increase. Mr. Speaker, I also wou ld like to place on the record once again some of the facts concerning the eco nomic situation in this province when we assumed government in 1977, and when the mem bers opposite assu med it some thr ee or four months ago, because despite factual explana tions that have been given, the First Minister in hi s presentation to the House last night contin ued to follow his revisionist type of appr oach to providing information on the state of the economy. Mr.

Speaker, as long as tha t sort of misun dersta nding conti nues to persist among the mem bers opposite, then I will continue to place upon the record the facts, and the mem bers opposite should be free to chal lenge th ose facts or to verify them. When we assu med responsibility for government in 1977, we took over at a time when the economy was only growing at 0.8 percent a year. When those hon ourable mem bers took over, the economy of this prov ince was estimated by the Conference Board to be growing at 3.3 percent. Mr.

Speaker, I bel ieve that that is an increase of something like 400 percent, four times higher when we took over than it was when they took over. The statements the First Minister has been making simply don't wash with the facts. Unem ployment was 5.9 percent when we assu med office. It's 6 percent when they assumed office. Retail sales were 4.4 per cent when we took over - 11.5 percent dur ing 1981. The thin g that the honour able mem bers opposite continue to try and impr ess upon the publi c is tha t the eco nomic capacity of the government is someho w terri bly constrained because of the way we left it. Mr.

Speaker, I want to assure them that the eco nomic capacity of the governme nt, fiscal capacity, is in better shape when they assu med power than it was four years ago. Let me reiterate the facts once again, tha t the deficit in 1977-78 represented on an annu al basis 11.7 percent of the expenditu res of governmen t. When the figur es

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 are in for 1981-82. it will show tha t the deficit is appr ox imately 10.9 percent of the expenditu res of govern ment for tha t year. The deficit as a percentage of revenues in 19 77-78 was 13 .3 percent; in 19 81- 82 it will be 12 .2. The total direct and guaranteed debt in 19 77- 78 represented 42 percent of the gross provincial pro duct and I'll give you one updated figure. Mr. Speaker; I thank the Minister of Finance for providing me with the information yesterday afternoon. It is based on the most cu rrent projection of the gross provinc ial pro duct for the provinc e.

The total debt for 19 81- 82 will come in. in the range of 35 percent of the gross pro vincial prod uct. as opp osed to 42 percent in 19 77-78. In fact. the fiscal capacity of the government is stronger today than it was four years ago. Those are the facts, Mr. Speaker. I will continue to put them on the record so long as we continue to hear revision of state ments made about the state of the fiscal capacity of the province. Mr. Speaker.

I also want to make reference to the general appr oach that this govern ment seems to be taking to the man agement of the economy or to the extent that the y are able to influe nce the economy; tha t is. that they general ly appear to be treating the symp toms. rather than to be doing their part to treat the ca uses. I take. as an example of that, the state ments that are made in the Throne Speech where the government refers to their conti nued call for a lower ing of interest rates and that they will attempt to offset the most serious effects of inflation. We ll, that's fine. Mr. Speaker.

All of us wou ld like to see lower interest rates; none of us like to see the higher interest rates that we have today. We also don't want to see people sufferi ng the effects of inflation. but it surely is incumb ent upon a provincial government to lay out a strategy for how the y see those things actually being acc ompl ished.

Because to simply call for a loweri ng of interest rates is simp ly to posture without being able to lay out at the same time some of the other events tha t they see taking pla ce in order tha t they may give the people some confidenc e tha t they know what the y are tal king about; that if indeed they are proposing to take sh ort term pai n for long-term gain, then at least they should lay that out so tha t we have some knowledge that they know what they are tal king about We haven't seen th at, Mr. Speaker, all we see is a simple call for lower interest rates and some effort to offset inflation.

At the same time they want to flail out at President Reagan in the Un ited States for the pol icies that he follo ws. We ll. Mr. Speaker, they may not agree with the pol icies of President Reag an. and tha t of course is everyone's prerogative; I don't entir ely agree with all his pol icies either. but he does lay out a plan. He does tell the people wher e he expects to go. There is a body of knowledge that leads him to that concl usion and the y are having some succ ess in controlling inflation because inflation today is ap prox imately hal f in the Un ited States of what it is in Canada.

I want to know from the government some time in the course of debate du ring this Legislatur e. Mr. Speaker. what they think is going to happen in Can ada if their polic ies are followed with respect to infla tion. because there are very knowledgeable people who say that if their pol icy is followed. it will lead to 20 percent inflation. I don't think tha t they want to see 20 256 percent inflation; I expect that then they wou ld be ca lling for a re duction in in flation. I think we have reason to expect answers to those kinds of qu estions and so far we haven't had them. Mr.

Speaker. the memb ers opposite talk about the necessity for economic development; we all ackno wl edge the necessity of economic developme nt. It's how we see economic development being carried out wh ere we differ and I must say tha t in looking thro ugh the Estim ates last night. ther e doesn't seem to be very much ther e that is going to do anything to enhan ce the economy of the province. There doesn't even seem to be much effort and it simply reinforces the fact that in the Thr one Speech there were only one or two paragraphs where reference was made to the pri vate sector.

We see now tha t in the spending Esti mates for the Department of Economic Development, for instance. that even though th ere is a figure of some 8 percent increase for the Department of Economic Develop ment that really, Mr. Speaker. if you look at tha t and see that $2 million of that is for the Horse Racing Commi ssion that the Minister of Economic Development is going to bring in Estill)ates that in fact are 1 percent lower than they were last year. Now. Mr. Speaker, what kind of message is that going to give the private sector in Manitoba?

Does this government want the private sector to help in generat ing economic activity in this province or not? The amount of money that's made availab le under the Small Enterprise Development Program, for instance. is reduced. In fact, the entire Estimates of Economic Development are down by some 1 percent What other action is there, Mr. Speaker, in these Estima tes that would indicate something tha t's going to generate economic activity?

The Thr one Speech tal ked about investing in resources, well, we know tha t refers at least in part to their intention to invest in ManOil and Man itoba Min eral Resou rces. We would n't expect to see tha t fund ing in the se Estima tes; we expect to see that in the Capital, but the way that they mana ged some of the other resources. I find somewha t alarm ing, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday, the day before, we saw the Minister of Natural Resou rces stand up in this House and make just a very strong plea for the better management of our natur al resources and the better mana gement of water. and I tur ned with great anticip ation to the Esti mates to see how that kind of promis e was going to be carried out. Mr. Speaker. What do I find when I look in the Estima tes? The overall funding for water resour ces is up 5.6 percent. Mr. Speaker. what are they going to do with that?

He read, I bel ieve in gl owing terms. from the Conservation Districts Ann ual Report and I agree they are excellent. What is there for conserva tion districts? Zero percent increase, Mr. Speaker. They talk in glowing terms, Mr. Speaker. about the need for economic development in the north; they talk ab out concluding a Northlands Agreement . What do we see in these Estim ates. Mr. Speaker? We see a reduced amoun t of money for Northland s. How are they going to del iver on their prom ises of economic development to the people of Northern Manitoba when they put less money in the Estimates than they had before?

There are in fact some other very interesting things

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 in the Estimates as wel l. The Thr one Speech made specific reference to Highways, to maint aining the highway system in the province. Actually, Mr. Speaker, when you look at the amount of money that's in th ere for Acq uisition and Construction in High ways, even though it shows a 16 or 18 percent increase. In fact, if one adds in the additional funding that was provided to Highways, it turns out that it is about a five-percent increase which of cour se under today's cond itions of rising costs will not even maintain the level of activity that was undertaken dur ing the past year.

What kind of com mitment is it tha t is given in the Thr one Speech tha t is then followed up with this type of spending? Does it mean, Mr. Speaker, that the Min ister of Finance knows full wel l tha t he is going to come to this House again with further sum s of money? He al ready knew, he adm itted today that he knew th ere was a $2 million grant to be made to the City of Winnip eg Division No. 1. It was not inclu ded in his Estimates.

Never before, to my knowledge, has a Min ister of Finan ce ever come to this House to table Esti mates tha t left out an item tha t he knew was going to be required tha t had actually been an nounced in thi s House. The Minister of Agricultur e has prom ised a Beel Income Stabilization Plan to the people; they have been promising it immed iately and on an emer gency basis for months now. They know tha t the funds are going to be made availabl e; they are not in the Esti mates.

I hop e that the First Minister will acknowledge what has been happ ening here and will see that the books of this province begin to be kept once again in a responsible sort of fash ion. -(l nterjection)- At least, Mr. Speaker, my colle agues behind me mention the general salary increase amount.

I don't argue with the manner of presentation of that item; I simply point out that if the general salary increase was to be placed in the Estima tes on the same basis that it was last year, it would be necessary to add an addi tional $20 million which would bri ng the spending Estima tes to an increase print over print wh ich is the only way they've been presented before, which is the only way his staff would recommend, 17 .7 percent and that falls far shor t of meeti ng the prom ises that the y have made. Mr.

Speaker, these mem bers opposite are in a fiscal no man' s land because the y have brought spend ing Estim ates in last night that are already more than the people of Man itoba can afford, yet the y fall far short of meeting and fulfil ling the prom ises that the mem bers opposite have made. Last night, Mr. Speaker, and on a numb er of pre vious occasions, the Fi rst Minister and other s have made reference to the actions of the previous ad minis trat ion someho w being responsible for the way in which this province is treated under equal ization and establ ished programs financing. Mr.

Speaker, there are two ways in my view to ap proach that issue. One is tha t the First Minister is sim ply pu tting up a smoke scree n; tha t in fact has not happene d at all and I fully expect that is the case from my knowledge of my exposure to First Min isters' Conferences and to Finance Min isters' Conferences because I know that other provinces were treated the same.

I know tha t the First Minister of New Bru nswick has stood up and spoken to First Ministers' Conferences and indeed 257 travelled across the cou ntry and he said, I co-operated with that central government on biling ualism; I co operated with them on OREE; I co-operated with them on the Constitution and look at the way they treat me, exactly the same way that they were treating Man it oba. I expect tha t's the case, Mr.

Speaker, but if it's not, if that's the kind of -(Int erjection)- yes, the memb er rem inds me of the word we're looking for - capriciou sness, that is demons trated by our Federal Gove rnment; then this First Minister and his govern ment should be standing up and defen ding the rights of provinces and saying that this is not the way that Canada was intended to operate, tha t the central government would somehow punish individual prov inces because they happ ened to take stands tha t they bel ieved were right and that were right in the eyes of many Canadians.

Surely that is not the way that Can ada was intended to operate unless, of cour se, we believe the First Minister of this cou ntry whe n he said indeed that co-operative federalism is dead. I hope that the First Minister has some suc cess in his approaches to the Federal Govern ment, but I rather think that he may find that the best approach for him is to make sure that he looks after the interests of Manitobans and not the interests of Pierre Trudeau.

Let me just recount for the informa tion of the memb ers opposite - perhaps the y will find it useful - the seq uence of events and the change in attitude tha t we experienced in terms of negotiating with the Federal Governme nt over our four years. When we came into power in October of 1977, we were negotiating a nu mb er of agreement s with the Federal Governme nt, a tourism agreement and an industrial development agreement and I re memb er tha t the Federal Minister came here, Mr. Lessa rd.

We met with him personal ly, we sat down, we talked about the approach that they wanted to take and the appr oach that we wanted to take. We com promised, we agr eed and we signed agreement s, and it was possible to negotiate with that Federal Government. Then of cour se the election of '79 came and we dealt for a shor t period of time with the Conservative government and, of course, that was a great period of open ness in dealing with the Federal Gov ernmen t, but unfortunately it was short-lived and we went back to having a Liberal Government from February of 1980. Mr.

Speaker, in February of 1980, the attitude of the Federal Govern ment chang ed; it was com pletely dif ferent than it was prior to the May, 1979 election. It was as though the Federal Government had made up their mind that they were going to centralize control with in this country, that they were going to take away auth or ity from the provinces; they were going to reduce funding to the provinces and it was impossible to have meaningful discussion and negotiation with the Fed eral Govern ment. I tell the mem bers opposite that is wha t was happ ening despite the best efforts that we could put forward.

It was imp ossible for me to get the Minister for OREE to speak to me or to meet with me. I recall one occasion I learned he was coming to Man itoba. We pho ned his office and said, wou ld it be possible to meet with you, sir, for 15 min utes in the airport on the way thr ough? Do you know wha t the first qu estion was, Mr. Speaker? How did you find out I was coming to Manitoba? That is what we were up aga inst and, Mr. Speaker, that's wha t the mem bers

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 opposite are up agai nst. I expect that the Minister of Finan ce realizes that, because I think he's been in the front line of dealing with them to this point and I expect that his patience is wearing just a little thin. When I see, Mr. Speaker, tha t in the spend ing Esti mates tha t ther e is a reduced amount of money put forward for the Northland s Agreement, then I rather begin to expect that some of the other mem bers over there know that they're going to have trouble negotiat ing a North lands Agreement.

Becaus e last year, when we presented the Estimates, we were confident enough that th ere wou ld be an agreement that we put all of the money for that agreement in the Estimates and we proceeded to spe nd, as far as I know, all of the money that the province had availab le. We comm itted addi tional money indeed to pick up some that the Federal Govern ment did not. The Estimates before us indi cate, Mr. Speaker, that's not the way the memb ers opposite are proceeding; in fact, they're budgeting less money for North ern Developme nt than was bud geted last year.

They are going to have trouble on delivering their prom ises. Mr. Speaker, one last comm ent that I wou ld like to make could you indicate how mu ch time I have? Oh, thank you. One other item tha t concerns me, Mr. Speaker, is mention tha t the Minister of Financ e made last night in page 14 of his presenta tion, and tha t is wh ere he beg ins to raise the possibility that the y're going to go back to separa ting operat ing from capital.

They are going to try and present the figur es on the deficit to show it to be smal ler than it really is; I know the pol itical hay that the mem bers opposite tried to make on this over the years. I listened to the First Minister after his election on CBC radio, on an inter view at noon one day, say that the previous Conserva tive government brough t this in, in an effort to embar rass the previous NOP government. Wel l, Mr. Speaker, the record will show tha t the Provincial Auditor recomm ends that it be done this way.

I believe nine out of ten provinces in Canada do it this way and tha t the y combin e operati ng and capital as being the bot tom line because the government has to raise those fund s. When you try and sepa rate them out, you end up with all kinds of strange things happ ening, with paper clips going into capital. When I took over I recall very clearly it was one of the thi ngs I ha d the most difficult y com prehen ding in the depar tment is that I rememb er in Water Resou rces th ere were two pots of money, one was capital and one was operati ng, and for the life of me, Mr.

Speaker, I could n't differentiate the difference between operat ing and capital. Finally the staff said, wel l, really there isn't any difference, you just move money back and forth, from one to the other, depen ding on whether you have a little room to operate and you can put some capital into operating. If you don't have room to oper ate, then you take operating and put it into capital. That, Mr. Speaker. is no way to keep the books of the province.

I am especially concerned because I have seen two or thr ee example s of how this Minister of Finance has presented information to the people of Manitoba and to this Hous e with in the shor t period of time that he has been Minister, when I see how the Information Services has been used to mislead the people of Mani toba as to the spending plans of the province. Mr. 258 Speaker, that is wrong, it is wrong tha t should be done.

I hope that the Minister will begin to take recommenda tions from his very capable staff and present things in the same consistent fash ion that they have been presented over the past four years. I hope that when Mr. Broadbent's Executive Assist ant is reviewing the information system of the prov ince that he will approach it from a very objective way and will not attemp t in any way to slant the system so as to favourably present the NOP government poli cies.

I hope that he will look at it in an objective way, and I hope the fact that there is an 824 percent increase in the Advertising Audit Office doesn't indi cate that, in fact, we are very rapidly seeing a propa ganda service being developed among the memb ers opposite, Mr. Speaker. The jur y is still out; there still is opp ortunity for the honour able mem bers opposite to begin to present information in a straightforward, objective fashion consistent with the past. I hope that we will begin to see tha t very soon, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Arth ur. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, on speaking of the Esti mates of the Govern ment of Man itoba, the NOP party, I would like to start off by reading back to the people of Man itoba and putting on the record some of the state ments that were made by the First Minister of this province - he wasn't the First Minister at that particu lar time, as wel l as the now Minister of Agric ultur e - some of the state ments that have been made by him in regard to the election pledges, the prom ises were made to the beef industry of the Province of Manitoba.

We can look back over the last two years that the y were in Opposition and some of the questions and some of the pressure that was put on our government to get involved and to supp ort the hog industry. A suppor t program which was worked out with the hog produc ers, a program which I think, Mr. Speaker, will in the long run be the basis for a major stabilization program thr ougho ut Canada if the Minister wants to proceed and look at it in an objective way.

I bel ieve that the introduction of such a program with the hog producers and the Producers Marketing Board being involved in the establishing of that program was one which, I think, is certainl y, again as I say, has the makings of a very positive and very firm program to give that industry in the Province of Manitoba a sup port that is req uired du ring a downturn in mar ket conditions. I know, the Minister who makes com ments that we didn't have proper funding in place, that we had to do certain things wel l, I'll just make a brief comment on that, Mr.

Speaker, because we in fact dur ing last year's Estim ates, because the agricult ure industry was in a busine ss of ma rket fluctuations, that we saw the industry recovering somewhat. Fu nds were put in pla ce that were estimated to be needed; ther e had to be further funds made availa ble through a warrant. However, the Man itoba Agricultur al Cred it Corpor a tion had the capacity and the capabil ity to provide a grant, not a grant, but a loan fund guarantee to the hog indus try. It had the capacity to do it, we put additio nal funds in it, Mr. Speaker, and of course - yet, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister did not as a responsible person

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 discuss with the Manitoba Credit Corpora tion, then of cour se I don't believe tha t we should be taking any criticism for that kind of appr oac h. However, Mr. Speaker, let us deal with the real issue today, because the real issue today is what the First Minister of thi s province prom ised to the beef prod uc ers, not of any constituenc y other than his own, reported pu blic ly in the Press by one of, of cou rse, the favourite reporters of some of the mem bers on this side, and maybe I'm one of them, in a report in the Winnip eg Free Press, Thur sday, Novemb er 5th.

Tha t was a meeting with several beef produc ers in the Sel kirk area. One of th ose particular individua ls was one, or there was one of abou t twenty beef produ cers meet ing in his home , Mr. Bodnaru k's home , to lay out some of the compla ints to Mr. Pawley, who is now the First Minister of the Province. As well, at that meeting the newly elected memb er for the Constitue ncy of Gi mli, Mr. Speaker, was as well at that partic ular meeting. Here's one of the commen ts that I would like to make or to put on the record that was made by that new mem ber for Gimli.

The candida te who is now the memb er said, "Coun tless beef prod ucers in the Inter lake have had to take up driving of school bus es, part-time jobs, whil e their wives take jobs in hospitals or restaurants." You know, really laying out th e diffi cult ies that the beef industry was having. Mr.

Speaker, the comm ents that came from the First Minister - he wasn't then but he is now - the Fi rst Minister at this particular time at that meeting said: he gave the farmers his assurance that an NOP Govern ment would come to their aid qu ickly with an Income Assurance Program; and note this - "similar to Sas katchewan's program," Mr. Speaker, and tha t aid would be coming very qu ickly. Well, Mr. Speaker , tha t was on the 5th of Novem ber, they were elected on the 17th.

We are now sitting on the IOth of March, and we still have had the Min ister answer me today, and the answer tha t he gave was: he would hope tha t the memb er would be patient, he would hope tha t he wouldn't have to hu rry into anything, that they wou ld be patient. Mr. Speaker, I'm here spea king on behalf of the beef producers that his First Minister promis ed to them on the 5th of Nove mb er of last year. Mr. Speaker, he imm ediately says tha t's when I set up my comm ittee. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I set up a commit tee to tell our government wha t the beef produc ers felt they needed as a program, and yes, Mr.

Speaker, wha t did the Minister of Agricultur e do with tha t comm ittee? He fired them, Mr. Speaker. He neglected to even listen to what the y had to say. You know why, Mr. Speaker? Because they weren't totally all affiliated with the National Farm ers' Union. Mr. Speaker, let us proceed on a little further. What did the Minister of Agricultur e say ap proxi mately on the 8th of Januar y? He's reported again in the Bran don Sun as havi ng said - he's asked the qu estion tha t, "When will the program be in pla ce?" and this is the 8th of Janu ary, Mr. Speaker.

"It will be in the next month to six weeks." That, Mr. Speaker, was the Minis ter of Agricultur e speak ing, the Honour able Mem ber for the Interlake. Tha t was ab out the 8th of Januar y, Mr. Speaker, reported in the Press as havi ng him made that comm itment in a month to six weeks. Yet we saw the Minister of Financ e introd uce the 259 Estim ates into this House last night and he did n't put one nickel in it for the beef industry in the Province of Man itoba after being elected.

I'm sure a lot of the mem bers the Memb er for Dauphin - let him go back to Dauphin and have a press conference this weekend and tel l his beef produc ers how much money the y're going to get from tha t great - let's remem ber this - that great government that he's a part of. Let him have a press conference and go to the public in Dauphin. Let the Memb er for Gimli go and face his constituency with a prom ise that has been broken by the Minister of Agricultur e and the Pr emier of this province, Mr. Speaker. Nothing but broken promis es. Let us proceed on a little fur ther, Mr.

Speaker, because reme mb er the prom ise that the First Min ister made was tha t "It would be a program like Saskatche wan." We ll, like Saskatchewan, Mr. Speaker, let us start to put some num bers together. -(l nterjection) Wel l, Mr. Speaker, if he can't take the heat, then he'll have to get out of the kitchen. Mr. Speaker, the Minis ter of Agricultur e said to put in a program like the other provinces. The Minister of Agricultur e said in an

article - Mr. Speaker, I have an

article here tha t says the Minister of Agricu lture - oh, yeah, here we are, agai n on the 8th of Januar y in the Winn ipeg Free Press, the Minister of Agricultur e for the Province of Manitoba who is leaving the kitchen said, "Certai nly the industry needs help." MR. DESJA RDIN S: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Health on a point of order. MR.

DESJARDINS: At the requ est of a memb er of the loyal Opposition yesterday, you ruled that we should n't bri ng notice tha t people are either leaving or are absent from the Hous e, and I would hope that espe cially if it's a req uest of their s, tha t they will also play the game straight. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Pem bina on the same point. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like you to rule as to whether this is a kitchen . MR. SPEAKER: I didn't hear the honourable memb er's remark. I wonder if you can repeat it, please. MR. DOWNEY: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Arthur on the same point of order. MR. DOWNEY: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, I apolog ize to the mem ber if in any way it was taken that he was leaving or being a part of this Chamb er. I did use the expr es sion, "if he can't stand the heat in the kitchen, then he should leave the kitchen," Mr. Speaker. MR. ENNS: No, I think you lous ed it up . "If you can't stand the heat, leave the kitchen." MR. DOWNEY: Well however, Mr. Speaker. However ,

Wednesday, 10 !\/larch, 19 82 the memb er is still in the Chamber and if he takes it that I am ref erring I will refrain from making a comm ent on whether a memb er is absent or not, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I bel ieve that the matter has been dealt with. The Hono urable Memb er for Arthur should proceed. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I was going to start to put some numb ers together for the Minister of Agri cultur e, which he ha s been qu oted in the Press as given to the pub lic of Manitoba and that's in the Win nipeg Free Press

article on Janu ary the 8th where the Minister indicated - he said, "Cert ainly the industry needs help. No qu estion of that." he said. "Ma nitoba would need to spend about $35 mil lion." - $35 mill ion which we didn't see in the Estimates, Mr. Speaker, would have to spend about $35 million if it wan ted to set up a support program like the one in Al berta. Mr. Speaker, the govern ment of the Province of Manitoba today was elected on a prom ise to introduce a program for the livestock produc ers in this province -(I nterjection)- "Im med iately," Mr.

Speaker, again referring to the First Minister's com ments on November the 5th. Wha t ha ve we se en, Mr. Speaker? We see a false promis e agai n being given by the Minister of Agricultur e. He does not, and I put this on the record, I bel ieve he does not intend to bring one cent forward for the beef industry in this province, because if we refer to the Minister of Fina nce's com ments in today's Free Press, the Minister of Agricul tur e ha sn't even taken a proposed program to Cabi net yet.

A qu ote agai n from the Minister of Financ e said, "The Minister of Agricu lture is prepa ring a program for beef prod ucers. When that is appr oved by Cabi net, funding will be provided in Supp lementary Estimates." Mr. Speaker, let me tell you that the Premier who was told by beef prod ucers in his own constituency, by his own member from Gimli how many people had to leave thei r opera tions to go and work - the wives had to work and the farmers had to drive school bus es - they still cannot move to imp lement a program which they pledged they would do imme diately. Mr.

Speaker , let them go back and I agai n challenge the Member for Dauphin and the Member for Gimli and the Minister him self to go back to his own consti tuency and hold a publi c meeti ng and tell them wher e it's at because, Mr. Speaker, it's nothing more than a hoax; it's nothing more than a bunch of balo ney that they've been giving the people of Manitoba, particu larly the beef prod ucers, because there was proof last night there wasn't a nickel put in the Estimates for the beef producers. If they'd live up to thei r promise, Mr.

Speaker, as the First Minister said, a program like Saskatchewan, then there would be $35 million in a one time payment and then they would work on a longer term program. Mr. Speaker, I bel ieve that it's encumb ent upon the Minister of Agricultur e to come forward with a clear and plain explanation of why he is unable to put a program in pla ce. First of all, he hasn' t even screwed up his courage to take it to his colle agues in Cabi net. Mr. Speaker, he ha sn't screwed up his courage to take it to his colleag ues in Cabi net, and the Min ister of 260 Financ e told us last night tha t he hadn' t.

He said tha t the Minister hadn't been to Cabi net yet; it has to go. Mr. Speaker, I challenge the Minister of Agricultur e to come clean with the farm communi ty of Man itoba. If he is a credible person ; if he wants to live up to the reputation that the farm people expect of the i r Min is ter of Agricultur e, Mr. Speaker, I believe that he should make a statement today. Why didn't he make a statement today, but he said in the House, wel l, there's a vehicle to do that; I hope the memb er is patient. Mr. Speaker, let's just go to some more numb ers tha t we have.

The Cattle Prod ucers Assoc iation in the Provi nce of Man itoba, the President of which made some com ments on Februar y the 5th and these are the kinds of nu mbers that our livestock producers - the numb ers of dollars that they're losing, Mr. Speaker, on every animal that is going to mar ket. It is estimated tha t for every 1, 000 pound steer that is going to mar ket tha t they're losing $100 per head. Again, the Member for Dauphin maybe should take a look at some of the se numb ers because he has -(I nterjecti on)- Mr.

Speaker, let him look back at the deba tes and the proceedings of this House and see if he can find how many times his memb ers, who are now the govern ment, sat there and qu estioned me as the Minister of Agricu lture on a Beef In come Assuranc e Program . The only qu estions that they had, Mr. Speaker, and the y'll eat these words, were "How much money have you got back from the beef producers of the Province of Manitoba on the money they owe us, on the $40 million that we gave them, how mu ch money have you got back." Those memb ers, Mr.

Speaker, their col leagues who are now the Ministers -(I nterjection)- "Take them to court; take the beef prod ucers to court. We want tha t money back, Mr. Speaker." You know, how soon it all chan ges, Mr . Speaker, how soon it all change s. We have the Minister of Agricul ture, who is now sitting there fumbling the beef, I mean fumbling the bal l. Mr.

Speaker, I'm very serious because I think that the reputation of the Fi rst Minister, first of all - last night it was all very nice motherh ood talk about the farm com muni ty being the backbone of Man itoba, you know, and we know that; that's nice and we bel ieve in tha t as wel l. We've got mem bers on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, who are a part of it. It's a very integral part of their whole livelihood. Mr. Speaker, wha t is happe ning with the New Democratic Party who are in government now? They're trying to say wha t happ ened over the last four years?

I'm reminding the Memb er for Dauphin who asked me, and maybe some of the other mem bers who are inter ested,

part icularly the ones from Gimli, that whe n they were in Opp osition and their mem bers are now Minis ters, their only concern about the beef producers was to pay the money back to the Government of Manit oba. Don't help them, but get that money back; money, by the way, Mr. Speaker, which was needed for that beef industry, but tha t wasn't their concern. They tried to make us look bad politically, but, Mr. Speaker, it backfired and let the Memb er for Daup hin go to Dauphin and hold a press conference this wee kend when he's home and tell his beef produ cers how muc h money were in the Estimates and the kind of program that they can expect from their particu lar government.

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 Mr. Speaker, th ere is going to be a day of reckon ing for tha t memb er and for th ose mem bers, the Memb er for Gimli who lives in the Int erlake, my colle ague, I hope would be prepared to make some com me nts as well I'm sure, represen ting the Int erlake and I say truly representing the In terlake like the Min ister of Agricul tur e is, should have a feel, should know wha t's going on. He knows how much money th ose prod ucers have lost. Again, go back to tha t numb er. Mr.

Speaker, each prod ucer is losing appr oxima tely $100 per animal, appr oximately 20,000 animals mar keted in the month of Jan uary - part of the reason for the drop was because of Saskatchewan moving cattle into Man itoba, not totally the whole reason, but par tially - and that put a loss to the farm commu nity of several mil lions of dol lars on a monthly basis and that is still going on, and the First Min ister who prom ised a program like Saskatchewan which guaranteed, and I want him to rememb er th is, it guaranteed 87 cents a pound, the cost of prod uction .

Nice stuff when you're in an election campa ign. It sounds good for the people who want to vote for you. The Memb er for Gimli was at the meeting; he was there.

It's reported; it's a direct qu ote from the First Minister and they haven't got the intestinal fortitude to stand up in this Hous e: he hasn' t got the intestinal fortitude to take it to his Cabi net to this point, to say I need $35 milli on, that's what it's going to cost the people of Manitoba; he has n't got enough intestinal fortitude to go to the Minister of Financ e and say put in your Estimates $35 million for the beef industry in Manitoba because the y need it, they're losing milli ons of dollar s a month. It's a lot of money, Mr. Speaker, but it's a commi tment that the y have to live up to. Mr.

Speaker, you know we hear all the se rumblings from the backbench and we hear all these concerns abou t the welfare in the Pr ovince of Manitoba. The Memb er for Brandon East is very proud that he put in place a welfare program and increased it by 16 .5 per cent. It was great reading, great stuff, but you know the real people that make it go in this province need some assistance as well and it isn't welfare; it's a stabil ization program and it's a short-term, Mr.

Speaker, program that will give them some help through a shor t period of time; not a drag on society forever, but give them some hope that there is some body in society that cares. Mr. Speaker, th ere's only two ways that a producer gets money; they either have to pay for it over the cou nter when they go to buy their beef steak or the y have to do it thr ough their tax dolla rs. Mr.

Speaker, I guess the way it is today, we have a Minister of Agri cultur e who sits amon gst a bunch of ministers who says, we're getting a pretty good deal on our beef; why should we give you ap proval to go ahead and pay any money through the taxes to supp ort that industry? Mr. Speaker, I have no other alternative but to sug gest tha t is what's ha ppening, but let's just go over the whole process again. I want it to be very clear.

On November the 5th, the First Min ister - the man who's now the Fi rst Min ister of the province - pledged a program to the beef produ cers of Man itoba immediately, a program like Saskatc hewan. His Minis ter of Agricultur e some several weeks ago said, tha t to help the beef industry like the other provinces they'd need $35 million. Mr. Speaker, he again said it wou ld 261 only take a month to six weeks. Tha t time has now lap sed, Mr. Speaker.

And rememb er this, I think it's very important to remem ber this, tha t the beef pro du cers you just can't tur n them on and off, it takes a long time to build up a herd of cattle; it's a life-time investment and, Mr. Speaker, it doesn't take many minut es to put them on the market and lose tha t money. What is the immed iate response you get from a Socialis t or th ose people who belie ve in supp ly man agement. You know I'm not agains t supply ma nage ment; I was toted as being against supply man age ment when I first was elected, but the produ cers of Man itoba found out that wasn't the case.

But you work on the principle of sup ply management, Mr. Speaker. The principle of sup ply management is you reduce the supply of a commodit y to increase the price. We ll, Mr. Speaker, how would that work today, because that's the problem. People aren't consu ming it at the price tha t it's at, so if you try to reduce the supply, all you do is reduce farmers. You don't increase the price to people or consu mers tha t aren't alr eady prepa red to buy it at the price tha t it's at. Mr. Speaker, you just elim inate farmers by removing those people that are produci ng. So supply man agement just won't work.

It is a stabi lization program where, in fact, the taxpayers thr ough a program of tax money has to be put in pla ce for periods of extreme lows. You know, it was n't the New Dem ocratic Party who invented or discovered that kind of supp ort. Let's look at what happene d and how the Manitoba Crop Insur ance Corporation was developed. Mr. Speaker, that is a program of support for the grain prod ucers of this province; they are sub sidized by the taxpayers, so don't let them stand up and say, you know, why are we doing everything for the beef and hog produ cers.

The taxpayers of the Province of Man itoba subsidize the premium s on crop insurance; they sub sidize the ad ministration costs on crop insu rance, so th ere is a support program put in place for the grain prod ucers, and it was put in, yes, Mr. Speaker, it was put in by a Conservative Govern ment. The gentleman who was the Pr emier of the Day is now a senator, Senator Roblin. He saw the need to support Man itoba's backbone industry. What are we heari ng on the other side?

We're heari ng tha t great mother hood statement, but it's pretty hollo w, it's pretty hol low; there isn't any meat on the bones, because they proved it last night. In fact, I wou ld say last nigh t wha t we saw was one of the biggest fraudu lent acts that a govern me nt ever put before the people of Manitoba. That piece of paper, all th ose Estimates, Mr. Speaker, weren't com plete. They aren't telling the story for the taxpayers of Man itoba, Mr. Speaker. They aren't tel ling the story at all. In concl uding my remarks, Mr.

Speaker, I would ch alle nge those mem bers, particula rly from Gimli, the In terlake, the Mem ber for Dauphin, to tell it as it is, to say there isn't any money for the beef prod ucers of the Province of Manitoba; that you, as a beef prod ucer, if you voted for the New Democratic party, thank you very mu ch for your vote, you ha ve no hope of getting any program because all our Minister of Agricultur e is stan ding up and saying is this: I wish that the honour able mem ber wou ld give me some time, be patient. Be

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 patient when every cattle producer in the province is losing $100 a head everyone he sells. How can he be patient? And the Minister of Communi ty Services immedia tely increases the welfare by 16 .5 percent. Mr. Speaker, their priorities are a little off. She's a little heavy on the one side and I have to think it's to the left. Mr.

Speake r, I want to agai n say that the com ments tha t were made by the Minister of Finan ce in the Press last night, that he believes the Minister has a program some pla ce out ther e, the fact that it hasn' t gone to Cabi net yet, I would make a specula tive judgm ent, if the Member for Dau phin wants an answer to his beef produ cers, is that you know under the normal pro cess, and we've heard the Premier of Manitoba say, well Caucus have to be a pretty major part of any decision. Does it go to Cabi net and then to Caucus or does it go to Caucus and then to Cabi net? Or, Mr.

Speaker, does it do it this way - ha s the Member for Gimli forgotten tha t he was at that he was at that meeting on November 5th, whe re the Fi rst Minister promised a program like Saskatchewan. Is the Memb er for Dauphin so glar y eyed when he saw all these lights in here and he really hasn't got down to the basics of representing the farmers in the Dauphin constituency? Has he really forgotten what he came to town for? Wel l, Mr. Speaker, I again challenge him to go home and tell it as it is to the beef producers in the Dauphin constituency.

You know, ther e is one individual tha t I have to just remind that he is now a memb er of the Treasury Bench as wel l, and that is the Memb er for Ste. Rose. Ste. Rose is a pretty nice town, a nice constituency -(I nterjection)- great cattle cou ntry, and who wou ld ask the qu estions in the Opposition days? What is the Minister doing ab out a feed freight assistance program? What are you doing about Crown land pasture for my cattle prod ucers. He was a great concerne d memb er of the Op position. He said he was a great constituenc y man.

Let him go home as the Minister of Muni cip al Affairs, because he's telling us about all these - I don't know whethe r they're consti tuenc y offices he ha s set up throughout his consti tuenc y or political offices, but I can bet you that it's the taxpayer that's paying for them one way or another -let him go home to th ose offices and let him have a meeting of those beef prod ucers in his communi ty who are losing $100 a head; let him stand up and tell them some of the details, because he isn't prepared to tell us the details, he hasn't seen them in Cabine t yet and I don't suppose he's seen them in Caucus yet.

Mr. Speaker, this is qu ite an interesting thing we have seen. I, Mr. Speaker, am not going to let the First Minister or the Minister of Agric ultur e rest one minu te in this Hous e until the y've introduced a program that is meaningful to the beef industry of this province. I will close on that, Mr. Speaker -(I nterject ion)- We ll the memb er opposite said, "what did I do?" The lan ds lide from Thomp son says, "What did I do? " What did I do? Mr. Speaker, I was about ready - we had a com mi ttee, Mr. Speaker, put together to make recomme ndations. Mr.

Speaker, I will cl ose on tha t and I thank you for the oppor tunity to debate. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the qu estion? The Honour able Member for Lakeside. 262 MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, we're not ready for the qu estion, Mr. Speaker. I bel ieve the kind of rather astonishing and rather frighten ing display of fiscal integrity that we now are only starting to fathom the whole depth of and the pictur e of, it calls upon us to at the first mom ent, in fact it's in our rules, Mr.

Speaker, tha t when the Opposition feels that there is someth ing to be concerned about or something that is being done that is not in accordance with past tradi tion, not in accordance with the accepted procedur e in this House, that the Opp osition take the i r earlie st and the first opportun ity to bring it to your attention, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I rise, and not because I'm going to repeat all what my colleague, the Memb er for Arth ur has said so wel l, but I want to un derline the very real concern as expr essed so capably by my deskmate, the Memb er for Turtle Mountain. Mr.

Speaker, to have this demons trat ion of the way this government obviously is going to handle its fiscal reporting is a fng hten ing thing, Mr. Speaker, tha t it should come so early in their life, so early in their life. Let me put it on the record.

It is a fact that I am a representative in the Int erlake, I am a prod ucer myself, and I have many cattle prod ucers of imme diate inter est in my constitue ncy, many of whom du ring the election camp aign, as we campaign ed like, nose-to nose, chee k-to-cheek with the Honour able, now the Minister of Agricu ltur e, just north of me; why could n't you fell ows, why don't you promise that instant solu tion, that help to the beef producers, that the Honour able Member for St. George is prom ising? That the NOP are promisi ng?

I said, "W ell, we happen to have had the experience and the responsibility of govern ment for four years." You can not make instant prom ises no matter how attractive the y are on the election hu stings, because unless we know wher e the dol lars are coming from, un less we know our capacity to respond to a real problem, and unless we have those ans wers, we were not prepared. We suffered for it. We were not prepar ed to make that kind of an election platform speech that so many mem bers have referred to, and indeed, Mr.

Speaker, that are forever impr inted in the minds of the voters thr oughout Manitoba and so well recorded for posterity. We will have the pleasur e of cou rse of reminding the honour able memb ers opposite of that. Mr. Speaker, it is not as though honour able memb ers, particularly those, and the Honour able Min ister of Agricul tur e, the First Minister was in thi s House for the four years, was expo sed to the kind of fiscal reporting that they were accustomed to from this government just past. Mr. Speaker, we had diffi cult time s in those four years.

We faced floods, droughts, unprecedented forced fire prevention costs, and those were all the kind of costs that governments cannot accu rately predict. I'm not suggesting that we always in the year of their occurrence, in the year of flood, were able to put th ose costs into our fiscal reporting, into our spending Estimates, in their total, in their comple te figures in the first instance.

But I ask you, check the books, check the past Estimates and you will find substantial sums, $15 mill ion, $20 million, $30 mil lion put in th ere as a reserve for the knowledge that we knew we would have to come up with those dolla rs, and the y were

reported by our Minister of Finance. We put unusual high er forest fire prevention costs into our bud gets at the time tha t the spending Estima tes were introduced, because we knew that we were facing those kind of costs. Not conclusi ve. we couldn' t, the final costs wou ld come in the following year. We did. because we had signed a two-year agreement with the Civil Ser vice, we put the full cost of the Civil Service into our spen ding Estimates. I'm not suggesting that the hon ourable mem bers opposite can do that. They have reverted back.

Except tha t in that case. procedure that has been done in the past. not knowing what the costs will be for the Civil Service rise in salaries. the y put in a nominal figure. Mr. Speaker. But. Mr.

Speaker, I think perhaps the most shocking thing happ ened just this afternoon on this qu estion, when as a result of a qu estion from this side of the House, to the Minister of Educ ation, a qu estion was asked . well surely, you know tha t $2.1 million or $2.2 million dol lars to Winnip eg School Division 1 was in this 14.4 percent increase. or in the lengthy explana tion in the speech made by the Min ister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education quite rightly got all her credits from the educators and the school trustees for the assistance and the grants that she made on tha t occasion.

She makes a very presentable. you know. person in represe nting the se increases at a formal press conference. The figures were not. the y were not maybes. or we hop e to add some extra monies to Winnip eg School Division; they were pre cise. they were precise to the last cent, to the last dollar. Now. Mr. Speaker. for those kind of figures not to be includ ed into last night's presentation by the Minister of Finan ce is just unexpl ainabl e. Mr. Speaker; unless of course, Mr. Speaker. you understand the devious and the real concern tha t our memb ers opposite have. They know. Mr.

Speaker. that intu itively people do have a concern about govern ments that sim ply have gone wild with our spending. No matter how attractive it is to any spec ial interest group to get extra funds, to the school departments, the school divisions, to the farm com muni ty, to the health services and agenc ies. but collectively people, Manitobans, get nervous when the y feel all of a sudd en that, particu larly at this time of our economy, 1982 ther e appears to be a run away spe nding on the part of a government. Knowi ng that, Mr.

Speaker, and I give them full marks. they knew th at. so the y sat down and spent many hour s, and knowing the fina nce officials that the y work with, the y worked towards that head line, Mr. Speaker. You know tha t was wha t the y wanted to do, they wanted to pres ent a reasonable fig ure, you know, percentage of increased costs, in that head line, and they were pre pared, I suggest, to do wha t the Honour able Member for Tu rtle Mou ntain said, is to displa y un usual and a rather frighten ing lack of fiscal integrity in reporting the actual spending Estimates as they will be. Mr.

Speaker, I don't want to prolong my contribu tion on this matter. but I want to indicate to honour able mem bers opposite tha t it's a slipp ery slop e tha t you've decided to get onto so early in your life. and I can't really under stand why you wou ld feel compelle d to do that, Mr. Speaker. The conseque nces of this kind of reporting will transcend all other spending esti mates, all other budge t estimates, all other financial 10 March, 19 82 arrangeme nts tha t this government enters into, because of the metho d tha t the y ha ve chosen to pres ent their Estimates on this their first occassion. Mr.

Speaker, there had been in the past some very serious argum ents, differences of opin ions, as to how costs, or how figur es, or how dollar s are shown or han dled in this House. We have had great argu ments as to wha t constitutes capital account, what consti tutes cu rrent acco unts, and those are legitimate argum ents that sometimes flow back and forth in the House, but the dollar s were always up there, they were always avai lable for us to be seen. We may argue · about how they were reported.

I can rememb er when a su bstantial change in a fiscal reporting was under taken early on in the life of the admin istration in 1977- 78. We had considerable difficulty, individual Minis ters had difficulty in sorting out what was capital, what was cu rrent, in the reconcil iation of the different fig ures; that was some difficulty, but the argument was not tha t $5 million wasn't shown here, or $5 million was missing ther e, the argu ment was how it was being shown. Mr. Speaker, what we're talking about now is, it's not th ere. It 's just not ther e, and what is doubly insulting, Mr.

Speaker - and tha t's after Ministers have gone out and reaped all kinds of political credits for dollars, some actually promised, some comm itted, some spent, and some just hoped for as is the case of the beef plan. 263 Mr. Speaker, let me conclude just on the beef plan, because I ha ve a great interest in that. I'm not char g ing the Honourable Minister of Agricultur e that he necessarily come up with a program as rich as Sas katchewan's or Alber ta's. I recognize, Mr. Speaker, the fiscal cap abil ity of our province, but, Mr.

Speaker, they made a promise, and they could have just as easily picked out a figure that he could have ham mered thr ough with his Cabi net, through his Treasury Board, just as they picked a figure out of the air for interest relief.

They said in their subseq uent releases and in their statem ents, they've acknowledge d it, you know $22 milli on, or $23 million isn't going to solve all the interest relief problems in this province, but obviously sitting down, even before the y were government, they said we will dedicate ourselves up to $22 million for interest relief, and tha t's wha t they said the y would do and that's what they're now carry ing on. Wel l, Mr. Speaker, why could the same not have been done on the cattle plan. We've got eight or nine cattle plans functioning across this countr y unfortu nately, instead of one national one.

It doesn't take a great Houd ini to figure out - new plans don't have to be devised. They were involved in a massive plan for five years, not that long ago, some of the same actors, some of the same actors. So the y could ha ve come up very easily, Mr. Speaker, if they wanted to, if they wanted a report with some fiscal integrity, a figure, $20-$25 million, to come up with an income supp ort plan for beef producers in this province. Mr. Speaker, they cho se not to. Mr.

Speaker, not so mu ch because in my judgm ent I sti!I have some faith in them, un like my colle ague, the Memb er for Arth ur, I bel ieve that they are going to help the beef produ cers but, Mr. Speaker, that did not fit in with their overa ll strategy of ma king sure that they got this kind of a headline. That was wha t they were after and they said, look it,

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 we will help you out, Billie, later on. Don't worry, we won't leave you in the lurch, we won't tell you how much, but the main thing is pair this down . They even allow it because school board press ure was on the Minister of Ed ucati on, go out and tell them what a great Minister you are and add ress some of the imb al anc es, as she described them, in the previous pro gram that was annou nced by our Minister of Educ a tion a few years ago, a year ago.

But because the pressure is on, they said , fine, go out there, promis e Winnip eg No. 1 an extra $2 million in special assist anc e, but don't send any memor andum down to the Fina nce Depart ment right now because that is going bother with this head line. That would push this head line up to 17 percent to 18 percent up to 19 percent. I don't know what that figure finally will be. Mr.

Speaker, when one innocent qu estion, out of the blue, discovers $2 milli on, I hate to think of what we can do in the next few days by asking a few more qu estions as to what others costs that have been commi tted, that have been identified, are not incl uded. I rather suspect that when we get through with the Honour able Mem ber of Minister of Health, the Mem ber of St. Boniface, and we start talking about Misericor dia and we start talking about additional floors on Concor dia and when we do a few other thing s like that, we will find some "lul ues"; we will find some dand ies. Wel l, Mr.

Speaker. the Opp osition has every right to be exercised at this par ticular time and to delay get ting into the spending Estimates. Frankly, Mr. Speaker. -(I nterjection)- No, we are delayed. I am prepared; I would like to go into those spending Estimates and I look forward to being first up with the Depar tment of Natur al Resources, but I would like to know tha t th ose printed spending Estimates are more or less wha t the government is going to spend. They are pretty well what they are going to spend.

I ap preciate ther e will be Sup plemen tary Supp ly; I appr eciate the re will be unsched uled or unknown costs that will accrue. We have all the mechanism of deal ing with that. The Minister of Financ e comes into the Chamb er and presents Supp leme ntary Supply at the appropria te time but, Mr. Speaker. for them to do this so early in the life of their government and to do it in such a deli berate fashion tells us some thing about the char acter of this government and tel ls us about something about the integrity of this government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. PENNER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, addr essing the motion -(I nterjecti on)- wel l, that's what I'm doing. Right? Mr. Speaker, I would not have ordinarily have risen to speak on the motion because we are anxiou s, and I am sure tha t the people of Man itoba are anxi ous, that this House add ress itself to the busi ness at hand; tha t is, to get away from the kind of rhetoric, raving, roaring and ranting that we have heard in the last hour -and-a-half and to begin the detailed exami na tion of the Estimates.

There is the prime opportunity for the Opposition to take the time that it wants to examin e our proposals for spending, to ask all of the qu estions whi ch it wants, but there they will by the very nature of the exercise, Mr. Speaker, be req uired to be specific, to look very 264 care fully and to get away from this kind of dema go guery which has taken the time of the Hous e un neces sarily and ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Tur tle Mountain on a point of order. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I believe that demago guery is consider ed to be an un parliamen tary expr ession. MR.

SPEAKER: I am not sure whether the word would add to the level of debate in the Ho use. I wonder if the Honourable Attorney-General would like to consider the remark. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, I did n't catch your ruling. MR. SPEAKER: I am suggesting to the Honour able Attorney-G eneral that he reconsider the remark. It would not seem to add to the level of decorum in this House to use such a word. MR. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Honour able Memb er for Lakeside said that the absence of somf) items in the Estimates were to him inexpl icable.

I war1t to just put someth ing in context, that is, that at the time when, on the manda te of the people of Mani toba which we received in such substa ntial numb ers and with such a sub stantial vote, we took office, there was, Mr. Speaker, waiting on the desks of each and every one of us, the Estimate books that had been prepared by the mem bers opposite, those that occu pied the Treasury Bench. They were sitting on our desks and we were faced with a monu mental task.

One, was to examin e these Estimate books which had been prepared under their guidelines; secondly, to get them ready thr ough the process of min isterial review in a time to be tabled in the House, but to do that, as the mem bers opposite know, in such a way tha t we could meet the House as qui ckly as possible and to present to the House our election prom ises in the forms of legislation because tha t was a prom ise we made to the people of Manitoba, Sir, and that was a prom ise we intended to fulfil!. What did we find, wha t did we fi.nd?

In going thr ough the Estima tes, in order to get them ready for print, and the mem bers opposite who occupied front benche s know the nu mb er of days it takes to get Estima tes into print. I want this to be known because I, as the person chairing the Treasury Board, sat thr ough the exercise.

Even to get them into the stage wh ere they were, where we tabled them, we had to cut out $15 5 mill ion which they had left us in those books to bring them in the shap e that we brough t them in. $15 5 mil lion, $15 5 mill ion of fat, $15 5 mill ion of excess, including substa ntial numb ers of extra hiring that the y proposed to do. -(I nterject ion)- Tha t's true, that is true and I am stating tha t for the record. I want that to be known.

They're there accusi ng us of all kinds of fiscal irresponsibil ity - $15 5 million cut out in order to bring in responsible Estimates. -(I nter jection)- From their Estima tes. Now, we knew, Sir, that the Estimates as prepared by the then govern ment, by the Ministers who occup ied the Treasury

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 Benc hes prior to Novem ber 17 th, reflected their pr o gram th rust. We wanted to operate responsibly; we didn't think that we could delay the meeting of the House, that we could take the time to analy se every partic ular pro gram. We knew tha t there would be things which we would want to introduce, tha t of necessity we would want to be caref ully articula ted before we introduced them.

It would have been, in our view, irresponsible to simply put in a line before we knew with respect to a partic ular program, whether it would be a combina tion of grant s and loans or loans alon e, we were not going to play fast and loose with the spending Esti mates for the Province of Manitoba by guesswork. We knew, and we will accept the pol itical responsibili ty for it, that we would have to bring in Interim Supply and the memb ers opposite, who are now criticizing us, my goodness they are past masters of special warrants and In terim Supply.

We can learn nothin g from them on In terim Supply and Supplem entary. We can learn nothing from them , they are past masters at it, but in saying that, I don't want to appear to be too critical. It is known tha t every government, as it devel ops its program, as it meets needs that develop that can not be fully under stood or full y grasped at the time that you prepare the Estimates, mu st at some time or another bring in In terim Supply and spec ial warrants if the House is not in Session. That is knowing, we make no apolog ies for that.

We make no apologie s for the fact tha t on analyzi ng the situation with respect to pub lic schools tha t cer tain additions were needed tha t could not have been antici pated fully when we had to let the Esti mates go to print. I want to congr atula te the Minister for Edu ca tion for ha ving the pol itical courage to say to Caucus and to Executive Cou nsel and then this House, tha t this was needed and tha t it is being annou nced as a program, and we'll ask for the money.

It may not be in the print, but we are not hiding at all the fact tha t we will need that money and we will ask for it and we will ask for it in the normal processes of this House. So, too, with our election promis e with respect to assistance to the beef industry. That's a com plex qu estion. We want to examin e the alternativ es. We were not, no pun intended, about to be stampeded into some kind of a rough shot program made up of bits and pie ces. No! When we said, Mr.

Speaker, that we believed in the consul tative process, we meant it, and we will demon strate as we are demons trating with respect to the Beef Suppor t Program that we intend to consult, not with the former Minister of Agricultur e who has not demons trated that he has an acute understa nding of this problem in terms of wha t he has done in the past, we will consult with the beef prod uc ers.

The Minister of Agricu lture is consulti ng with the beef produc ers and he will come forward with the best possible program that will meet, to the extent we can, the needs of the beef prod ucers, the cattle produ cers and sti ll demon strate the me as ur e of fiscal responsibil ity.

I want to say in concluding the se remar ks, which I felt I mu st make in response to the kinds of remarks we heard from the two previous speakers, that the House should und erstand, and I'm sure tha t the public will understand, tha t we came in at a time when the former govern ment had alr eady in essence through its 265 department and th rough its gu idelines, because those Estimates were prepared on their guidelin es, ha d pre pared the Estimate Books and my goodness gracious how fat they were in terms of the amount of money.

I repeat agai n, and I'll cl ose with these remar ks; we had to cut out, and I want this to be known and that's why I'm emp hasizing it, $15 5 million, and now we will present the Estimates. We are anxiou s, I hope you are, mem bers opposite, I hope the member s opposite are, Sir, to get into Commit tee of Supply and to begin to look at the deta iled Estimates item by item, and th ere will be their opportunity, not this kind of flag wavi ng which is oc cup ying the time of the Hous e unnecessa rily. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Roblin Rus sell. MR. MCKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I hope I can assure the Honour able Attorney-General that ii I'm flag waving today, it's for the beef industry and trying to save it in this province, and I hope tha t he and his Caucus and the Treasury Bench will bear witness to wha t is taking pla ce in the debate this afternoon and why we are concerned. Mr.

Speaker, I certainly recognize tha t it is qui te possible there was some $15 5 million in the Estim ates tha t were before the Treasury Bench when they took office, and I susp ect tha t they went throug h those Estima tes - the y weren't the final Estimates by any way, shape or form - and they revised them to the form that they brought the m before this House. The one concern tha t I have is that there is nothing in the re for the beef industry, and that was an election prom ise of the First Min ister of this province, promised in Sel kirk and with in weeks, with in weeks, promised to the industry.

If the House will bear with me, I am most concerned today to see this government starting off like tha t, making pledges and prom ises to the people of this province and not living up to them. I'm pleased in many ways, Mr. Speaker, we have one member in this House who was at tha t Sel kirk meet ing, the Honour able Memb er for Gimli was a witness to what was said at tha t meeti ng, it's all qu oted, and I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, he's going to rise to his place and try and defend his Minister and his government as to why the y are not coming to the rescue of the beef industry as they had promised. Mr.

Speaker, maybe I am a little remiss today in not rising earlie r on this matter because I susp ect some of the finest beef cattle in all of Canada is in Rob lin Rus sell constituency. I dare say there is no jur isdic tion in all Western Canada tha t's got a beef stock comp arable to the people, the farmers tha t live ... So, it is my duty and my responsibility to rise on their behalf today and express some concern and anxie ty, espec ially when the Minister tabled the Esti mates in this Chamber last night, there was nothing there for that industry. Then, of cou rse, came the hea dline today, Mr.

Speaker, in today's paper. The phone has been ring ing all day by the beef producers in my constituency wondering wha t is going on? How long does the industry have to be studied? How long do they have to realize tha t ther e is a problem out th ere, and a serious problem? I think the former Minister of Agricu ltur e

Wednesday, 10 March, 19 82 spelled it out pretty qu ickly this afternoon. It is a serious problem and I'm sure the Member for Gimli knows how serious it is. He pointed out in the

article there that ther e were people out doing other meaningful jobs to try and save their cattle herds on the farm. That's how serious it is. I think it's time well spent in this Chamb er this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, for us to discuss that and hop efully get some answers from this government. I was shocked when I was sitting in my place today, Mr. Speaker, and got the ans wer that I got from the Minister of Agricultur e in this province who absol utely refused to give the farmers or me any assuranc es whatsoever that he has a plan .

In fact, I doub t if has got it even throu gh Caucus yet, because reading this arti cle in the paper, it says tha t it hasn' t been to Cabi net. So, how much longer is it going to take? When you read back and see what was said in Selkirk by the Fi rst Minister of this province on November 5th, when he said, and I qu ote it from the First Min ister, "Pawley gave farmers his assurance tha t an NDP Governme nt would come to their aid quic kly with an income assur ance program simi lar to Saskatc hewan's." He went on to say, "I don't mean by dragging into months and years," he said. Now, Mr.

Speaker, what do we expect from a First Minister of a province who sta nds up and makes a state ment like that on November 5th, I bel ieve it was, in Selkirk and now is reneging on it, and his Minister of Agricu ltur e is reneging on it? There are no funds in the Estim ates and we have got no assurances today from anybody over there that there is any money forthcom ing at all. Why doesn't somebody stand up and give us the assurances that we are asking for?

The Attorney-General rose in his place and said, "Ther e was $15 5 million worth of fat in the Estimates," but he has never gave us one word of assuranc e that ther e is a plan there, tha t it's going to be in six weeks, th ree weeks, or is it going to be ther e at all. I am left with the impress ion tha t th ere is no beef plan, th ere is no beef plan. Why can't we give a deadlin e? The monies are not there. Mr.

Speaker, what concerns me most of all, is you see the First Minister now is hedging, he's hedging and saying he didn't mean to say the things that he said; in fact he said here to the beef producers that he's being forced, he's now being forced, into some thing at the pro vincial level. Did he say that on November 5th when you were in his company, my honour able friend for Gimli, did he say to you then that he was being forced? Not a word about being forced. He's going on, Mr. Speaker, he was care ful to say

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 10.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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