Third Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 28-1:30 p.m., Thursday, April17, 1997 JSSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSDIBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political AfTiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRE TT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim Charles wood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P.

MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D P ROCAN, Denis Gladstone PC . SALE, Tim Crescentwood NDP SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON.

Ben La V erendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere PC . TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

, 15 63 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April17, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Comm ittee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of the Committee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 1997-98 for the Department of Labour. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the 1997-98 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Environment. INTRODUCTI ON OF BILLS Biii21-Th e Jury Amendment Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 21, The Jury Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les jun!s), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty­ three Grade 5 students from Christ the King School under the direction of Mrs. Shirley Gendron. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render). Also, we have twenty-five Grades 7 to 12 students from Powerview School under the direction of Mr. Scott Radley, Mr. Don Playfair and Mr.

Tom Paukovic. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. *(13 35) ORAL QUES TION PERIOD Labour-Market Training Federal-Provincial Agreement Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Acting Premier. Today, the Canada­ Manitoba Labour Market Development Agreement was announced, and it looks quite curiously like the agreement we raised in this Chamber a couple of week ago.

It is, as we noted, an agreement that follows the Alberta model where we have devolution of power to the provinces and of course our fear has been that today's devolution will be tomorrow's offload. I would like to ask the Acting Premier why the government has signed an agreement-in light of all their, quote, comments about offloading-that only includes three specific years of funding. Hon. Glen Cum mings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I think the Leader of the Opposition would agree and would want to

1564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 1997 acknowledge that one of the more important contributions that we can all make to the effective future for this country is to ensure that we reduce overlap and duplication and that we do focus maximum effort to the benefit of those who need services under this program, and that is the objective. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, and of course we believe in a strong co-operative federalism. We believe in a strong national government that works on behalf of all our people in all of our regions.

We do not believe in a Canada that is devolving into provinces becoming franchises of the federal government, that is why we have a different view of these matters. The minister will also note that we will have two administrations, because the federal government will still maintain the El funding or the unemployment insurance funding as most people will still recall the correct term of the program.

I would like to ask the minister in light of the fact that when we raised this question in the Chamber a couple of weeks ago-we asked the Premier why had they agreed to a program transfer that would reduce the staff from 143 down to 119. These numbers of 119 have been confirmed in the agreement released today. Why would we agree to a devolution that would include less people to provide training and counselling for people all across Manitoba to get opportunities across our communities? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Edu cation and Training): Madam Speaker, the Acting Premier in his answer indicated that we are hoping to avoid overlap and duplication. By taking control of our own destiny and taking advantage of this opportunity, we see an opportunity to provide one point of access, no more going to small towns and seeing an office at one end of the street and another at the other end of the street, have the one point of access. That increases efficiency that is of ultimate benefit to the people of Manitoba. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, and this is a government that whines about the offloading of the federal government and then has the temerity to sign a three­ year agreement for funding. This is a government that talks about offloading from the federal government and signs an agreement that reduces the staff in Manitoba to provide counselling and training and advice for people by 143 down to 1 19. The federal government is laughing at you because you have agreed to these offloads. I would like to ask the minister: Can she specifically table in this House where those layoffs are going to take place?

Are those layoffs going to take place in Thompson. Selkirk. Brandon, Portage, St. Boniface, Morden, Steinbach. Dauphin. Swan River, The Pas or Winnipeg? Can she specifically tell us today where those layoffs will take place? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, obviously, not accepting any of the

preamble of the member, I indicate to the Speaker and to the member opposite through the Speaker, that we do not anticipate any job losses with this particular agreement. He is speculating. He is incorrect. Labour-Mark et Training Federal-Provincial Agreement Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, one of the real difficulties for Manitobans with this offload from the federal government of labour force programs is that the record of the provincial government on training has been one of cutting longer-term training programs. whether it is the two-year New Careers Program, whether it is Gateway, whether it is the Access programs and developing instead short-term training programs aimed at low-wage jobs. I want to ask the minister: Does she intend as a result of this agreement to change her government's direction on training and its short-term horizon? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Educat ion and Training): Madam Speaker. again, obviously not accepting any of the

preamble because it is fraught with errors. I would indicate to the member that we anticipate the people of Manitoba being able to receive the same services they currently receive from both federal and provincial jurisdictions, except now through easier access through one point of entry. The federal government and the province do not intend to see services reduced to Manitobans or service disrupted in any way, shape or form. * (1340) - -

, April 17, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1565 Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the minister then make a commitment that in the long term, that is beyond the three years, that employment counselling services will be provided outside Winnipeg where at the moment for young people the only alternative is the high school guidance counsellor, a profession that is under enormous pressure and which is increasingly scarce? Mrs. Mcintosh: Again, the member is wrong in her

preamble and her assumptions. We have employment development centres that provide counselling outside of Manitoba, very successfully in Brandon and other places outside of Manitoba, and those will continue. Those will continue. We expect to have increased efficiency. We expect to be able to have better linkages between employment and the economy because we can control our own destiny, and we have the commitment of federal funding coming into Manitoba to maintain the funding for those programs which we can now control delivery of, Madam Speaker. Ms.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the minister tell us whether she intends the new training role of the province to follow the past practice of Manitoba, that is, the secrecy ofWorkforce 2000 where no curriculum, no standards, no outcome have ever been revealed and the pattern of the Employment First project which provides employers with, as the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce calls them, no-cost, no-commitment employees? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, if the

preamble is accepted as fact, a great disservice is being done to the people of Manitoba. So I think it is important that I state each time for the record, the

preamble is based upon erroneous assumptions. I would say, Madam Speaker, the Province of Manitoba has an excellent record of providing training and providing employment opportunities to people who are currently unemployed, whether it is through social assistance, through EI, some of which come under provi ncial jurisdiction, some of which come under federal jurisdiction. We will now be providing one­ point access for these people, a better co-ordinated effort which will improve efficiency for them.

Our record of achievement in getting Manitobans back to work is extremely good, Madam Speaker, and heralded around the nation as one of the best in the country. We will continue in that thrust to provide opportunities for Manitobans to be employed. Urban Aboriginal Strategy Status Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs. In May of 1989, this government held a conference called Workshop for the Development of an Indian and Metis Urban Strategy for Manitoba of which I have copies here.

A consultant's report by Resources Initiatives Limited called Developing an Indian and Metis Urban Strategy for Manitoba was also released at the same time. Since then, of course, virtually nothing has been done at all in this area by this government. Today this government has the gall to announce an urban aboriginal strategy consultation process. Could this minister explain what exactly was the so­ called urban aboriginal strategy of the last seven years of this government prior to today's announcements? Hon.

David Newman (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, this is not time to look backwards. This is time to look forward. There were many situations in the past that we have learned from.

I think that the consultation group made up of myself, Danny Vandal, George Campbell, Mary Richard and Professor Tom Henley will take their responsibilities very seriously and will come up with a plan which will be of benefit to all collaborators in this enormous challenge, and those collaborators include all citizens of Winnipeg, all of the different, disparate parts of the aboriginal community and all levels of government. Mr. Hickes: Madam Speaker, I hope the minister is true about his word of actions because we have been hearing this for- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

1566 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 1997 Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples Cabinet Comm ittee Review Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Since, according to the press release, this new strategy is timely in view of the recent release of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples report, I would like to ask the minister: What happened to the commitment last November 21 by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) that said a cabinet committee would begin examining the commission report immediately? That was on November 21 . Hon.

David Newman (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, the report has been examined in detail on a multidepartmental basis. I am very pleased to say that I am on my way early this evening, after I complete Estimates and participate in private members' hour in part, to attend a Native Affairs ministers' meeting in Regina, and that very kind of issue is going to be discussed there. Indeed, we are studying and have reviewed through our different departments that study and will be discussing that at this meeting starting this evening. * (1 345) Mr.

Hickes: Since no initiatives from the Royal Commission report have been mentioned since November 21 , are Manitobans to assume that this report will be ignored in the same way that the AJI, Northern Economic Development Commission report and the Hughes report were all ignored by this government? Is this new report just going to gather dust like all the rest that this government has done? Mr. Newman: I will not accept any of the statements suggesting inaction on the part of this government.

I want to suggest that it does a disservice to the people of Manitoba and, I would submit, the aboriginal people in particular, to suggest that there are any simplistic solutions or any one answer to this problem. One of the great things that has been done by this government-and that I am very proud of and it is reaching a conclusion-is the treaty land entitlement settlements are in the process of conclusion. The Northern Flood Agreement settlements are in the process of conclusion.

This is a matter of historic importance that is about to come to an end because of long-term, persistent action on the part of this government that this is coming about, as well as the good will and commitment persistence of the aboriginal people. In partnership with the aboriginal people of this province, Madam Speaker, we are going to come to long-term solutions. and we are going to do it patiently, and we are going to do it in multifaceted ways. It is not simple, and we are not going to mislead anyone into believing it so. I am prepared to work in partnership with colleagues opposite.

I have told the representative from Rupertsland, the representative from The Pas that, as service providers representing the North, I will work with them towards the solution as well. Health Privacy Act Monitoring Process Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, earlier this week I asked the Minister of Health about stakeholder r�actions to his draft health privacy act, and though he waxed both ardently and loquaciously, he really did not answer that very simple and direct question.

So I would like to return today and ask the minister if he can confirm that his health privacy act will be monitored by an ombudsman rather than by a privacy commissioner as in other jurisdictions like B.C. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I can confirm that that is the proposal in the draft that is under consideration now by the privacy committee as part of my consultation. Ms. McGifford: I thank the minister for a direct answer.

Does the minister not understand that a privacy commissioner is superior in a number of ways. amongst them and perhaps chiefly because a privacy commissioner can issue binding orders and put teeth into legislation and consequently save Manitobans the time and expense of court proceedings? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker. there is a variety of ways in which one can have a reporting relationship into which individuals-the proposal in that particular draft is to an ombudsman. I am waiting to see the results of that particular review, but I think if you look at the history of this legislation across the country and -

April 17 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 67 you look at the powers and protections that are there and the rights of individuals, it is an opportunity or a vehicle certainly worthy of consideration of that committee. I am looking forward to seeing their results and recommendations. Ms. McGifford: When we all know that the Office of the Ombudsman is pushed to its limits, why would the minister entrust the health privacy act as a simple add­ on to this position and consequently put the confidentiality and the rights of Manitobans at such grave risk? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, if the issue is one of resourcing the Office of the Ombudsman, obviously if additional responsibilities are given to it by this Legislative Assembly, the resources will have to be adequate to do that job, and that would have to be part of any administrative package that was there to support the legislation. * (1 350) Legislative Building Smoking Policy Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister responsible for Government Services.

It is regarding an incident actually that occurred the other day for me where I was outside a government office, and I had noticed that there were a few individuals standing out there somewhat shivering as they had cigarettes in their mouths. I looked back as to why it is that they were doing this. I am told because the government has a policy on smoking, and they were not allowed to smoke inside the building.

Madam Speaker, I believe that government should lead by example and would ask the government why it is that we allow smoking inside the members' lounge when people outside of this Chamber are not allowed to do likewise. Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): In response to the honourable member's question, my department has been in receipt of a request to review the smoking policy within the Legislative Building and would inform the member that my staff are currently looking at the present smoking policy and any type of future policy that may be laid out with regard to smoking in this building. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, from what I understand, Manitoba is the last Legislature across Canada that still has smoking. My question to the minister is: Will he make a progressive statement this afternoon and today indicate that in the members' lounge we will not be allowed to have cigarette smoke? Lead by example, that is what I am asking the government to do. Mr.

Pitura: Madam Speaker, as I indicated earlier, my staff have received the request from the Legislative Assembly Management Commission for the Assembly, requesting that my department take a look at the smoking issue, in particular to the room across the hallway. As I indicated earlier, my staff have been instructed to take a look at the entire issue of smoking in this building, and at that time we would be prepared to come back and make a recommendation to the Legislative Assembly Management Commission. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, my supplementary question then would go to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service. In a sense of fairness and equity, should not then civil servants be allowed the same luxury as members of this Chamber are in terms of a smoking policy? You cannot tell civil servants that they cannot smoke while at the same time we are allowed to smoke in this building. Hon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister charged with the administration of The Civil Service Act): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Government Services has clearly said that this matter is under review, and I would ask the member for Inkster just to be patient. Man Globe Partnership Agreement-MTS Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the minister of telecommunications and it concerns the ManGlobe project. Five and a half months ago, on November 4, '96, I asked the minister of telecommunications for answers

1568 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 1997 on all the free goods and services MTS provided to ManGlobe as part of their partnership agreement. The minister promised to provide the answer at that time. We are still waiting. Can the minister tell this House what happened to the hundreds of thousands of dollars of computers, office equipment, furniture and MTS vehicles which MTS provided to ManGiobe? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, it seems to me that a similar question has been asked before. but I will undertake to take this question as notice for the minister responsible for telecommunications. Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, a supplementary to the same question is this: Can the minister confirm that a $25,000 offer accompanied with a cheque was made to ManGJobe in effect to buy back taxpayer-owned assets? Mr. Derkach: Once again, Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice. *

(1355) Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary is actually to the Minister of Rural Development. As the ManGJobe project papers indicate that rural business would be helped by the ManGiobe project, placing them on a level playing field with city businesses, can he confirm that not one rural business was recruited for the Internet mall, and would the government release the ManGlobe contracts? Mr. Derkach: Without accepting any of the

preamble, I can tell the member that this is not information that I have at my fingertips, but indeed it is something that I will research and get back to the member. Health Care Facilities Privatization-Food Services Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, on March 25, the Minister of Health held out a faint glimmer of hope for the many dedicated public sector workers who work in our hospitals who are now faced with the privatization move to profit under the USSC movement towards contracting out to a couple of m�or food services corporations. The minister undertook then to urge a delay in this decision.

Today the workers had a rally. They are desperate. Many of them worked I 0, 20 and more years in our hospitals. I want to ask the minister: Is there any hope that he can give to those workers? Will the government and the others involved in this decision back off on this ill­ conceived privatization? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Thompson for this very timely question. Let us remember just in context that the Urban Shared Services Corporation was a creation of the nine governing boards of our current hospitals under their structure.

As members well know. we have now made the first appointments to the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. M} commitment when I met with CUPE, who I believe represents five of the nine bargaining units involved. was that I would ask USSC. over which I have no control. to delay their decision until the Winnipeg Hospital Authority had had an opportunity to review that. Obviously, the labour relations part, the human resources part. was extremely important. I would like to indicate I have had meetings with the USSC chair on this. as well as the Winnipeg Hospital Authority.

I am pleased to table for this Legislature today a letter I received from Urban Shared Services indicating that they will do just that. and they will not proceed with the decision until they have given the Winnipeg Hospital Authority a chance to be involved in it. Mr. Ashton: \·!adam Speaker. I thank the minister for that, and I hope that they will indeed listen to the many legitimate arguments the public sector workers have. Regional Health Autho rities Funding Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I have a new question.

Yesterday there was a well-attended meeting in Thompson in regard to health care and many concerns were expressed about the impact of government cuts that have been in place, more specifically cuts which were initially delayed by the - -

Aprill7 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 69 �.: .. :ister of Health bt:: which have been implemented since the 19 95 election. A particular concern was expressed about the move to the regional health authority with a 2 percent cut in funding that is going to be entailed with that.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health how these regional health authorities, ill conceived as they are in terms of their lack of democratic basis, are going to have any chance of succeeding in meeting the health care needs if they are now starting with less funding than the hospitals collectively had before the regional health process. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, in the

preamble of his question the member for Thompson talked about these authorities being ill conceived. I think his reference had to do more with how they are constituted. There are no boards today that I am aware of that are directly elected by the electors of their communities. They are appointed either by municipalities or by private organizations. With respect to the reductions, I think the initial target for RHAs was approximately 6 percent. When we had a chance to review that, working with the RHA boards, examining their plans, we agreed on 2.25 to be found for the second half of the fiscal year.

We wanted those boards to assume a status quo. We expect, because they are amalgamating administrations in a number of services, that that would be a reasonable saving to be incurred. With respect to the provincial staff being transferred for home care, public health, et cetera, they are taking that on a status quo without a reduction target. * (1 400) Mr.

Ashton: A supplementary: Will the minister recognize that hospitals, Thompson, many other rural and northern communities have already been faced with significant cuts and, in fact, what will happen is, despite the assurances of the minister that the status quo will be maintained in the short run, this will only make that situation worse? Our hospitals are already understaffed. When will the minister reflect on the fact that those cuts are having a major impact on patient services in rural and northern Manitoba? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, in working with the RHAs since becoming Minister of Health on the 6th of January, we recognize that in some of those targets that some of the RHAs do not have the number of facilities with which to amalgamate. That is an issue that we are attempting to address.

The overall issue of funding and how we fund, we recognize that our current funding model is very inadequate and that is why part of the plan-because our current model funds sickness, in essence, it funds usage of often inappropriate use of facilities is why we are moving as part of this reform to a new model of funding which will take into account the health status of populations and a host of other factors. I think for northern Manitoba that will be a very good and healthy move. Canota Industry Genetically Altered Seeds Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, there has been a lot of discussion recently about genetically altering seeds and, indeed, a lot of concerns have been raised. Lema Grain of Saskatoon registered a genetically engineered canola seed in February for general release, and two days ago they pulled it from the market because it did not meet the criteria for commercial release. The canola industry is very important in Canada and Manitoba. In Manitoba it is a half-bill ion-dollar industry and in western Canada $3.5 billion.

Will the minister agree that this is a warning that has taken place here and we must move carefully on genetically altered seeds, and we need many more studies done before the sale of genetically altered seeds can proceed? We cannot risk our canola industry. Hon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I am confident that those who are engaged in that half-bill ion-dol lar industry, namely the canola industry, sometimes referred to as a Cinderella crop, which I think we Manitobans can take some special pride in having to a large extent developed through our research efforts at our Faculty of Agriculture at the University of Manitoba, have every concern about its future. The question of genetically altered plant breeding and plant development is one that is being looked at very seriously in different research centres across the land.

I am very pleased that the budget we

1570 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17, 1997 have passed this year off ers Manitoba's agriculture to be part of that research and development. I want to assure the honourable member and I want to assure consumers that canola is becoming the vegetable oil of choice in many households and in many households in different parts of the world. We will be extremely careful not to jeopardize the safety and the health of that very important crop. Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, of course I agree it is a very important industry. but we must protect it.

Can the minister give us any idea how this kind of a mistake could have slipped through the cracks? Is it because the federal government is cutting back on their inspections? Is it because provincial governments are not doing inspections? What has to be done to ensure that this kind of mistake does not put our canola industry at risk? Mr. Enos: Madam Speaker, I am not for a moment prepared to acknowledge without further research on my own part just what the difficulty is. It may simply have been a case of the plant not performing to expected production levels.

I should not withhold from her that there were genetically altered canola seeds planted last year and will be planted again this year in the province of Manitoba and throughout Canada that do very well. You see, Madam Speaker, they present a bit of a problem for some of our environmentalist friends. These are genetically altered seeds that require less chemical herbicides in their application, which is certainly a plus if you are talking food production. So I think we have to rely on the best of science.

We have to ensure that we invest in the best of science, but food production will not be arrested simply because new and different techniques are being introduced. I am confident that we have that expertise in Canada. Ms.

Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, since the genetically altered industry, the alteration of seeds is driven by chemical companies who want to sell more chemical or control the kinds of chemicals that are being used in the canola industry, I want to ask the minister if he is taking this so lightly and is prepared to risk the canola industry so that a few chemical companies can have more control over the industry and sell a little bit more chemical. Mr.

Enos: I am disappointed in the honourable member for Swan River with whom I am having a good discourse and debate as we go through our Estimates in the Department of Agriculture. Why would she in a public way cause unnecessary concern among the consumers of our province. indeed of Canada, that we are deliberately or taking lightly the saf ety, the sanitation questions of our food supply? We enjoy the best food supply anywhere in the world and our actuarial longevity statistics prove that, and we will continue doing that. but that does not mean that we do not look at all avenues that are available to us.

Winnipeg Remand Centre Han·ey Guiboche Release Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St Johns): Madam Speaker. to the Minister of Justice: Even if Manitobans accepted just for a moment the minister's spin. his ruse of yesterday that the Guiboche release was caused by a glitch in the federal Criminal Code and not by shortcomings in his own department could the minister possibly explain our understanding that his department actually never contacted the police. but five days later the police had to contact the department? We wonder how could the department have been so negligent. Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I do not want to get into the particulars of this case. but-[interjection] Well. I want to ensure, before I say things about specific cases. that I know the facts that the member for St. Johns-are accurate are in fact accurate. I have discussed the issue with my staff in respect of the gang protocol to see whether in fact every step that is taken generally has been taken. This was a particular situation where a direct indictment resulted in a new process being initiated and certain consequences flov.ed from that.

It is not the usual situation. but v.hat I have asked my staff to do is to take a look at the gang protocol to see whether that needs to be improved in any way, and I think consultation with the police is an important step to take at this time. Mr. Mackintosh: Given this regrettable event, I want to move on and ask the minister: Would he now table in this House the review. any review and recommendations that were made on the events that led to the Guiboche release. so we can watchdog the follow- up? Can he tell us what changes, if any, he is - -

, April 17 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 71 committed to in his department to make sure this never happens again? Mr. Toews: As indicated in some of the questioning yesterday, there have been administrative changes made, that in particular cases where a direct indictment has been initiated, an accused, even if he is in custody or she is in custody, there will have to be a technical arrest and a new bail hearing to ensure that the bail conditions are in fact clear.

In the situation of the direct indictment where the old information and the bail conditions lapse, we do want to ensure that bail conditions do continue, and therefore I have asked my department to ensure that those administrative controls are in place. Mr.

Mackintosh: Since the minister did not deal with a critical part of my question, I ask him again: Will he not table and provide us with the recommendations for change that presumably were made yesterday and may be made over the next little while even further so that we can watchdog them, unlike the recommendations regarding the escape from the sheriff's officers that the minister of the day refused to table, this minister refuses to table and we cannot follow up on? This minister will not even tell us what recommendations he is prepared to implement. Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, in fact I have indicated very clearly for the record the administrative steps that we have taken. I have also indicated the consultation that needs to take place with the police. I, in fact, was reminded by my staff that in a past situation where we had of fered the police more information, they indicated that that information would not particularly help them.

So before we start overburdening the police with specific information-and the type of information I believe it is incumbent upon my departmental officials to discuss exactly what type of information is helpful to the police so that they can do their job. * (1410 ) Student Transportation Government Policy Ms. MaryAnn Mihyc huk (St. James): Madam Speaker, the other day I asked the minister a question posed as a math question, and it was not her strongest point. So today I have prepared it as a multiple-choice question.

In relating to school buses which have exceeded the previous 15 -and-a-half -year limit, would the minister recommend that school divisions buy-and Winnipeg No. 1, in particular-one bus a year and use the older buses for as long as they can as long as they meet safety standards; two, lease as many buses as they can with the provincial grant money and end up paying twice as much over seven years as it would cost to buy the bus outright; three, raise property taxes or cut 40 teachers to make up the difference; or, four, replace the old buses with a fleet of minivans? Would the minister please respond? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Educat ion and Training): Madam Speaker, I presume that question was for me, although she did not identify which minister. I presume that the topic would lead it to me. I would say that my desire would be for the Winnipeg School Division to take hold of the local autonomy that local school divisions fought so hard for during the Boundaries Review which they said was important to them, which they said they needed to be able to make their own local decisions.

I would also suggest that the Winnipeg School Division be able to take advantage of the $750,000 increase they received from us this year, be able to take advantage of the fact that they are getting money for the full purchase of a bus, should they wish to do that, or direct that money, should they wish to do that, to any other area of endeavour.

I would suggest as well that they consider their own busing requirements in light of the fact that we now provide-which never occurred under them when they were government over there on the NDP benches­ funding for students to be transported in the city for kindergarten to Grade 6 instead of just kindergarten to Grade 3 and we now also will provide busing funding for that school division from Grade 7 to Grade 12 should they desire it. Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

15 72 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT._O_B_A __ _ _ _ __ A_..._pr_ il_ l_7-'---, _;cl9_9_7 NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Red River Community College Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Do I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek have leave? [agreed] Mr. McAlpine: Yesterday I had the pleasure of attending the Red River Community College business conference luncheon on behalf of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey). The conference was called Directions '97, and it gave students a chance to take

part in a conference which included several working sessions and exhibits. It also gave students, staff and employers an opportunity to get together for meaningful dialogue, to stop and think about the role businesses play in our communities and our economy and where we are headed economically as a new century approaches. Many of the students who attended the conference will go on to become the business leaders in our community. I think that events like this help them understand, as well as we, the important role that small business plays in creating jobs and wealth in Manitoba.

The Directions '97 conference was more than simply a chance for students to have learned a bit about planning, setting up and running a business. The conference gave them an opportunity to look seriously at their own skills and choices. I would like to commend the organizers of the conference for putting together such a worthwhile and informative program, and I would like to congratulate the students of Red River business education program for their participation and interest in business management and entrepreneurship. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Grant Park High School Teachers Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Crescentwood-[ agreed] Mr. Sale: I would like to rise to honour today three teachers in the Grant Park High School; Norm Roseman. Walter Funk and Dennis Kuzenko, who were the I 997 Prime Minister's awards for teaching excellence in science. technology and mathematics. It is the first time in the history of these awards that three teachers from one school have won awards. I think that the record of these three teachers in this school is just exemplary. Mr. Funk and Mr.

Roseman have taught for 32 years. Mr. Kuzenko for 22 years. The students of these teachers when interviewed by the press talked about the teachers in a way that showed enormous respect for their enthusiasm and dedication. The students said the science teaching of Mr. Kuzenko is such that he has helped a number of students start their own businesses and to learn ways of applying their upper-school science curricula to the real world that they want to become successful in. These teachers have volunteered, as most teachers do.

The real teachers of our society volunteer all over the place for teaching sports programs, leading in arts programs, and these teachers are no exception. Mr. Funk, Mr. Roseman and Mr. Kuzenko should be commended by all of us here and indeed by all Manitobans. as they have been by all their students, for being yet another strong example of how well our public schools do in reaching young people and helping our young people to reach their highest potential. I hope all members will join with me in extending congratulations and their honour due to Norm Roseman, Walter Funk and Dennis Kuzenko, teachers of the year.

Premier's Volunteer Service Awards Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Pembina have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Dyck: I had the privilege of attending the Premier's Volunteer Service A wards this week where a young constituent of mine was honoured. Stacy Lyne of Snowflake, Manitoba. is a Grade 12 honour student. - -

April 17 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 73 She has demonstrated leadership and contributed greatly to her school and community. Stacy's goal in life is to have made a difference, something her nominator, the principal of her school, says she has most certainly done already. Stacy has served as class representative on student council for three years, planning dances, track meets and fundraisers. As vice-president last year she organized a jeans sale, raising $1 ,000 for graduation.

Concerned about the abuse of alcohol by youth in the area, Stacy volunteered to serve as youth representative on a community round table finding solutions to community problems. She has been a 4-H member for eight years, serving a variety of roles, including reporter, president, secretary, treasurer and club president. Stacy has also served several years as junior leader in Sunday School and has served as a volunteer counsellor at Rock Lake United Church summer camp for three consecutive summers. Madam Speaker, time does not permit me to list all the accomplishments this young lady has had.

Suffice it to say, with young Manitobans like Stacy in our communities who have made significant contributions through leadership, personal initiative and determination, all members should watch out if this young lady decides to run against them in the next election. Thank you, Madam Speaker. * (1 420) Home Care Week Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): May I have leave of the House for a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [agreed] Mr. Santos: Madam Speaker, I rise to congratulate the City of Winnipeg for recognizing the Public Home Care Week, April 14 to 21.

This is a very wise move by the City of Winnipeg and worth repeating. The resolution reads as follows:

WHEREAS health care restructuring is making home care more important than ever before; and

WHEREAS Manitoba's system of publicly operated and funded home care is famous around the world; and

WHEREAS Manitoba's home care attendants provide a vital service to thousands of Winnipeg residents;

NOW, THEREFORE, I, Susan A. Thompson, Mayor of the City of Winnipeg in the province of Manitoba, do hereby proclaim the week of April 14 to 21, 19 97, as Public Home Care Week. Manitoba's public nonprofit home care system is indeed something to be proud of. The support by Manitobans from all walks of life for public, nonprofit home care has long been acknowledged, perhaps most of all during the dispute last year when the province attempted to privatize the system. The city has sent a strong and necessary signal to the province to support public home care. Let us hope this proclamation will become an annual event.

We must remember, Madam Speaker, that people are more important than money, for the love of money is the root of all evil. They that will be rich fall into temptations and a snare and into many foolish and hurtful desires, lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. Thank you. Small-Business Women Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, do I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Gimli have leave? [agreed] Mr.

Helwer: It is my pleasure today to rise in the House to congratulate 54 women who are honoured in this week's edition of the Stonewall Argus for their role in the small-business communities of Stonewall and Teulon. The businesses which they own range from pet stores to interior designing to real estate and to restaurants, just to name a few. All of the businesses mentioned are thriving in both communities. With the latest population statistics released only a few days ago, Stonewall is considered to be one of the fastest-growing towns in the province. This can only mean good news for these businesswomen.

It is also exciting to see that so many women contribute to the community by

15 74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April17 , 19 97 investing their time and efforts in making their businesses thrive. Many of the jobs that have been created within the province since January have been in the private sector. This province is doing better than ever when it comes to job creation in the private sector, and I am pleased to see this trend take place in the Gimli constituency. Again, I would like to congratulate these women on their business ventures, and I wish them continued success for the future. Thank you. Flood Preparation Volunteers Mr.

Gord Mackintosh (St Johns): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Johns have leave? [agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: I thank the members for giving leave. I want to just put a few words on the record and to members about the rapidly rising waters in the Red River, of course, which we are more than aware of. It is expected that the waters can certainly be as severe as 19 79 and could be worse. We know the effect this is having on individuals and homeowners in particular. This is an extremely stressful experience for those individuals.

It is time to remind ourselves that volunteers are urgently needed in mass numbers. I think we all have an obligation as leaders in our respective communities to call on organizations and even individuals to volunteer to assist. Citizens certainly in this city and in affected rural areas have been turning out in great numbers to help out. The City of Winnipeg now has a new information line, and I am glad to hear about that, but we have to do better. For example, this morning I know on Scotia Street we looked down the street at noon, and it looked like we had made very little progress.

The flood situation this year does not compare at all to last year. It is much, much worse, and I think all members should be on notice that it may be, after a review over the weekend, we will have to call for more widespread and innovative ways of raising the volunteer forces and perhaps even calling on the Armed Forces to assist. At this time it may be premature, but given what I see on those little stakes as to how high those dikes have to go and how much work can be done in half a day, I think that this is a time for great caution on our behalf, and in the meantime let us rally the troops. Thank you.

Women's Institute Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Swan River have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to recognize the many women over the years who have been members of the Women's Institute. This week the Manitoba Women's Institute is holding its annual conference in Brandon and will be celebrating the centennial of the Women's Institute.

The first formation of the women's group took place in Stoney Creek, Ontario. and the movement has spread across western Canada. I want to recognize the members of the Women's Institute for the tremendous amount of work that they have done to improve the quality of life for families. They were very active in the early days in working towards better nutrition, better services, better health care services throughout the province and across Canada.

They have been active in many areas when they feel it is necessary to put pressure on the government for various issues, and they have done an awful lot to raise the quality of life of people in rural Manitoba. I want to recognize them for the work they have done and wish them the best in their centennial celebration and the discussions that they will have at their conference. There will be issues that they will be discussing. am sure they will be discussing the regional health authorities.

They have discussed things such as the need for support such as rural stress lines in rural Manitoba, speech therapists, medical curriculum for rural doctors. So they address a broad range of issues and meet with government on a regular basis and with the opposition caucuses to make us aware of what the issues are. I want to commend them for the work they have done to improve the quality of life for families that live in rural Manitoba. -

, April 17 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 75 ORDERS OF THE DA Y Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. * (14 30) Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr.

Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Northern Affairs; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) NORTHERN AFFAIRS Mr. Chair person (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. When the committee last sat, it had been having a general discussion concerning the Estimates. Is it the will of the committee to continue with a general discussion? [agreed] Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I just wanted to raise a few issues. I was glad to hear the response from the minister in the House when I raised the issue about another urban aboriginal strategy, because there have been consultant reports after reports.

I have been here since September 11 of 19 90, and since I have been here, that I can only speak of, we have raised that issue every year about an aboriginal strategy, what has been happening, when it is going to be implemented, and we always got the same answer: soon, soon, soon. That is why I was pleased to hear your answer, and I hope you are committed and serious about taking action, because in the urban aboriginal community there is a lot of work to be done. You know that a lot of individuals need a lot of training. There are a lot of individuals that need real job opportunities. I was very skeptical.

I am so far very skeptical about what really will happen. If it is just a ploy to deflect criticism or if it is a ploy to slow people down, I hope it is not and I give you the benefit of the doubt. I will wait and see what actually happens because we have been waiting for many years. I have been in discussion with a lot of people. I know a lot of aboriginal people. I see just by the names that you have on your committee that you have excellent, excellent individuals on there that will do a very good jo b. I am sure that you will get some good recommendations.

The other aboriginal strategies that I tabled, there were also excellent recommendations in those reports. I hope you will read those. If there is something missed from this report that you will be bringing forward, that you will add those on because there is a lot of work to be done. I know, I am not naive enough to think that only one level of government is going to solve everything. It is going to take the work of the federal government, the provincial government, the city, aboriginal leaders and especially the aboriginal community, the aboriginal grassroots people.

I hope that there will be processes in place when you go around and do your consultation process, that you will encourage and find ways of attracting the grassroots people to have their say because a lot of times what the people want, what the people need sometimes because of everybody's busyness and over commitments, that some of these grassroots issues are missed. I think it is very, very important that you have some papers, local papers that get around, like the W eetamah and Mesanaygun and all different papers, and I hope you will get it, will advertise community meetings.

I hope that not all the meetings will just be held in the aboriginal centre. I hope you will consider Turtle Island. It is a huge community centre. The surrounding community is pretty well mostly all aboriginal people. I am sure you will get good feedback from there, because there are a lot of individuals that form various organizations and are associated with various

15 76 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MA NIT-=0-=B�A=---- ----� A.=.�:p::.::.. n::.::..'l -=--17.:...z,_:: 1_:_99:__:_ 7 communities there, are very community-minded and committed to the community. The Lord Selkirk residents association is just one start. Right across you have the friendship centre. So there are a lot of individuals that I am sure would be willing to come out and share their experiences and offer you some advice. I do not want to dwell on that.

As I said, I am encouraged by the makeup of the committee, and I take your sincerity at face value today, and I hope that you meant what you said in the House, that something positive will happen. That gives me some encouragement. As I said, I have been waiting since I was elected for some action. The other thing that I hope you will follow up on as a new minister is the commitment by your government that was made in November to start immediately looking at the royal commission.

You stated-I know that because I had to sign off the pair; I know that you are going to the ministers' meeting-the royal commission would be one ofthe items on the agenda, and I hope that you will be fighting on behalf of us aboriginal people in trying to get some of the recommendations from the royal cornmtsswn implemented in Manitoba to make things a little more tolerable and to give our people some encouragement and opportunities for training and employment opportunities. *

(1440) I do not have to tell you, but you know in the near future 25 percent of the whole workforce in Winnipeg will be made up by aboriginal people, 25 percent. If we want to be sincere and have opportunities for aboriginal people in the city of Winnipeg, I think we should have started yesterday in the whole area of training needs. Look at the skills areas that will be forthcoming, forecasts of the skills areas, and immediately start some training programs.

I think that is crucial, or what you will see is that the aboriginal people will be just taking low income paying jobs, and I do not think that is what I want to see happen. I would like to see the aboriginal community have the opportunity to get meaningful e�ployment and raise the standard of living that some individuals have to live under today. That is one area I hope you will seriously address. On the subject of jobs, I do not have to remind you, but in northern Manitoba, in a lot of the northern communities. there is a high, high rate of unemployment in those communities.

A lot of people are only seasonal workers. Some of the jobs only come during the summer when it comes to building infrastructure. schools or roads. But I wonder if your government would-and I hope you will take it to your caucus--<:onsider the opportunity that, when the government is awarding contracts, government contracts awarded to contractors, there be a stipulation in there of. say. 25. 30 percent of the workforce must be aboriginal individuals. I think that would help the North and help the aboriginal community because there are people now that have some years in apprenticeship training.

There are some people that have had training and experience in heavy equipment and truck drivers and stuff. So there is more of an expanded labour pool in the North now than there ever has been in the past, and I do not think it would be very difficult if an individual contracted with the government and it was written into that contract 25 or whatever the government sets, especially in lieu now where the government has taken over UI offices. so they will have ready access to the information of individuals with their skills and their work experiences.

So you could match jobs, and fine, if there were not enough individuals in the North that could fill those jobs, then sure, fine. let the contractors hire whomever they wish. I think that if we looked at some kind of motivator or some form of an action plan, we could try and get more people employed. It is the same thing where we hear from the small. rural farm communities, like, we are losing our youth. The same thing is happening in the North. I know a lot of young, very bright individuals have had to leave the North because there were no employment opportunities.

If we. as a government, try to look at plans and encourage training and employment and keep our youth in the North. hopefully, expand and develop a lot of the communities, a lot of the opportunities from work experience and education, some of the individuals will have the opportunity to work on reserves because of the whole aspect of self-go vernment corning into place. It is so crucial that government address that.

, Aprill7 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 77 We talk about different things that governments could do or the whole issue of youth crime and gang activity, the hopelessness of a lot of our youths, and the difficulty of opportunities. I know the minister was at the friendship centre before. I know that you have some understanding of what the friendship centre is all about. But I hope that you have taken time to see what kind of services the friendship centres across Manitoba delivered for aboriginal people.

I will give you a quick example of our elders, our elders that have to be removed from northern communities because of lack of personal care homes or lack of medical opportunities. A lot of the elders are removed from the communities and are placed into larger centres like Winnipeg because of medical reasons. You know, I do not have to remind you, that diabetes is very, very high in the aboriginal community. The only treatment that a lot of individuals have, kidney dialysis and stuff, is in the city of Winnipeg or other larger communities.

So when we remove our respected elders out of our communities into urban centres, a lot of time there is the feeling of being lost, of not having the people around, the family around, but also traditional foods, traditional entertainment and stuff like that. The friendship centre used to provide a very, very valuable service. The friendship centre used to be contacted by personal care homes in the city. They used to go and pick up the elders and bring them out for traditional feasts or bring them out for appropriate traditional activities within the city of Winnipeg.

That was so important to our elders because most of the time the elders, when they were taken out for medical purposes and placed in personal care homes, the family never saw the individual again until they were brought back home to be buried in their own community. The families a lot of times could not afford to come out and visit on a regular basis because of the isolation and the high cost of transportation. So a lot of times the elders were left without family, without supports in the city, within their immediate family. I know that I have raised it before, and I will continue raising it.

It is not like the south, where you can hop in a car and drive 100 miles or 15 0 miles and visit a loved one. It is not the same when you come from communities, say, Island Lake communities, for example, where there is no personal care home. The only way out after the winter road is closed is to fly in and out. It is very, very costly. When you have 85-90 percent of the people unemployed, the only means of money is through social assistance. When you look at $300-$400 air fares, I do not know how you would ever save up that kind of money.

But those are the kind of things, I hope when you are dealing with your counterparts in Regina, right, where you are going to, that you will raise some of these kinds of issues and say, how can we as provinces that are committed, are willing to deal fairly and to assist our aboriginal elders, our aboriginal peoples, our aboriginal communities, how can we address that? How can we discuss this? How can we get the federal government to, say, cost-share or some kind of an agreement? We used to have northern development agreements all the time, so it is not impossible to do.

We used to have northern development agreements that tied federal dollars, provincial dollars, and it was cost-shared. So say for instance, a personal care home, I think right now for any government, any government of any stripe, there should be a personal care home in the Island Lake area. I was there myself, I met with the chief and council, I saw the elders, I saw the families trying to look after them with the intravenous, and some of them had to change the bags and stuff like that.

They were not nurses and it was very, very difficult, but they did it out of love and to keep their elders there. * (1 450) All governments have to be sensitive to people's needs, and I really hope that what you say you really mean, and I hope you are really committed, because I have heard for seven years a lot of talk but very little action. I hope it will be reversed with you. I hope you will have lots of action and talk all you want, as long as you act. Those are some of the issues that I wanted to raise with you. I would welcome your views on this and hear some of your responses. Bon.

David Newman (Minister of Northern Affairs): Thank you, honourable member for Point Douglas, as

15 78 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17 , 19 97 usual a very sincere and thoughtful presentation of your views on the aboriginal people in the city and beyond. I am going to pick up on your last comment about all talk and little action. I am not going to get into a debate on that. That is not the purpose of this process. But I will single out one thing which I think is a major accomplishment by this government.

I am grateful that effort has been put into this for many years before I ever came into the Legislature by our government, and that is the commitment, the persistent and earnest commitment to tackle the issue of treaty land entitlement.

That became a major commitment of my department a major commitment of my predecessors and, through the political leadership and the staff, a ma jor, focused and structured effort was made to fulfil the provincial legal responsibilities to provide lands but also to be the catalyst to bring about the process to permit the federal government to carry out its long, outstanding obligations to the bands in Manitoba who had been party to treaties and had entitlement to more lands under those treaties than had been provided. That statute, imposing that obligation in Manitoba to provide those lands goes back to 19 30.

The federal government simply never in any leadership way moved that obligation to the table and into a momentum towards resolution and, of course, that has now happened and with immense good will, co-operation and commitment by the aboriginal representatives at the negotiating table and the representatives from Manitoba and the representatives from the federal government we are on the verge of bringing that to a conclusion.

The magnitude of that in terms of the quantity of the lands which will be transferred and the quantity of money that will be transferred, all in trust for the benefit of the people represented by the aboriginal leaders, will make a difference. It will be a basis for them to become more healthy and successful communities and more healthy and successful individuals in those communities. So that is a huge, I think, accomplishment. The details are not widely known to the general public. They are not even widely known to probably members of the Legislature other than those that have been following closely.

That is going to make a difference, as will the resolution by way of modification of the Northern Flood Agreement which was entered into in 19 77. There is now going to be a better relationship because of the agreement which is about to be finalized with respect to two of the remaining seven bands who were party to that agreement. Again, a persistent, focused and structured effort by my predecessors and continuing in my department by staf f and all of the, again, parties and the people they represent. So that again means a significant transf er of wealth.

That again means an empowerment of the people, an opportunity to develop a more effective social and economic infrastructure for healthy, sustainable communities in the North. The other thing is that in a whole variety of different ways through departments of Health, Education and Family Services Access programs, there have been incremental accomplishments along the way which surface. For example. I attended a graduation from the Engineering Access program several weeks ago on a Friday night, and four aboriginal engineers, the product of five years of credit courses, came out with a degree in engineering.

Sometimes it took more than five years because they took a year off to work. Thanks to the Access program in recognizing that, for example, one of the students from Peguis did not have what appeared to be some of the characteristics necessary to be successful in the long term in the program. So the decision was made by that individual and the program to go out and get a job for a while and alleviate some of the family obligations as well, also just to get more adjusted to the university situation and the urban situation.

That individual did that, and the employer apparently now gives a testimonial saying anytime you have a student like that, we want you to have them work for us, because that is a benefit to us. If it is of benefit to the individual, as it was here, it is a win-win. That individual came back and was one of the graduates. Another graduate was someone who had been in the mining trade for 17 years of his life before he went into engineering, and he has graduated now as an industrial engineer, a mature individual. All of these are role models. They were represented by members of their community at the graduation.

You could feel the pride. the commitment to their people, - -

April 17 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 79 their desire to fulfill their careers in service of their people. Again, those kinds of things are a product of seven years, in some cases, of effort. That is how much time, and that is the persistence I am talking about. Another example goes back to a time when your party was in government, and I have told this story many times about the youth justice committees having their origin on the Roseau River Indian Reserve. That is the first youth justice committee. They still have it there, and it has expanded; it does adult diversion work.

So 22 years later that origin has resulted in now there being 74 youth justice committees under the Young Offenders Act in the province of Manitoba. That is incremental, and that is still expanding. What is happening now is those very bodies are becoming the basis for perhaps what will become extended family conferencing models for doing not just criminal justice but also doing child protection matters, doing holistic, as I say, small "j" justice in the broadest sense for aboriginal people in their communities.

There you have elders and you have youth and others work in conjunction often with the local RCMP and other justice workers, probation services. They then do justice within their communities. That is a 22-year program. It had its origin-and I might say Manitoba is ahead of every other jurisdiction in the country.

Now that we have A was is coming forward and people like Art Schofley, an elder, with their proposals for doing enhancements to these committees to make them more a broader, extended family conferencing model, we have evolutionary improvements that I think will be the foundation of the kinds of changes that I am very optimistic about, changes which require persistent effort over a generation.

I speak without hesitation about this kind of a long-term commitment extending parallel to our economic agenda, the economic agenda going to the year 2025 when, if everything goes in accordance with plan and we do not have any disasters, we will have eliminated our accumulated debt. * (1 500) I would submit that there is a direct relationship between our paying down our accumulated debt by $75 million and the future of young aboriginals and the future they have because, when those born today are in their early 20s, that debt will be gone and more will be able to be devoted to them and their children.

They are going to benefit as much, maybe more than other Manitobans because of that kind of commitment. I will not go on with all of the other details of the kinds of programs but just to illustrate that all of those things, all of those changes add up. I can talk about changes in the education system, in the health system and in family services, which I would submit are positive developments which ensue out of the strategies you have cited in the past in Aboriginal Justice Inquiry; Hughes; the urban strategy of the late '80s; the northern study.

All of these kinds of things I think are reflective of the adopted provisions of those recommendations. You made reference to training and the importance of training. In the process of doing that, you mentioned somewhat critically, I felt, a reference to just low­ income paying jobs, end of quote. I would urge you and urge anyone not to devalue any job. I think that we do a disservice sometimes by thinking that any job for which you receive pay that is legal and moral is somehow lesser or not worthy of respect.

I know I personally have as much respect for the most humble person doing the most humble job, and that is measured in different ways. I find that some people are critical of a job in a fast­ food restaurant. Another person is critical of a job in a-well, a lawyer's job. Someone is critical of social workers. Someone is critical-[interjection] And Mr. Ashton speaks out, someone is even critical of MLAs' jobs and say that is not a real job. Some people say that. I do not agree with that either.

As a matter of fact, I am probably as proud of this profession as any other job I have ever held, and I say that without any hesitation at all. I think being an elected parliamentarian is as worthy a profession as any. But I do not think it does any service to our aboriginal Manitobans, particularly the young ones, to suggest that. Because if you are good at a job, you work at it; and you work at it with intelligence, commitment and heart conscientiously. You gain self­ respect. In our jurisdiction minimum wage means-

15 80 LEGISLATIV E AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April17 , 19 97 some would say, well, you cannot live on min imum wage. It is certainly a lot better than nothing. Al so, every time you work at a job it is a learning experience. It is a character-building experience, and you get paid at the same time.

I know I used to tell my own children that any time that they turned their nose up at a job when they were teena gers, I would suggest to them that if you treat everything you do in life as a learning experience and you are not paying tuition, they are paying you to do it paying you to get trained, it is all in your att itude.

That is what I would urge aboriginal people to do, not turn your nose up at any jobs, prove yourself, prove yourself worthy, earn respect Having said that, the responsibility for training-we have talked today in the House about the new agreement just signed between the feds and the province about training. My understanding of that agreement, and I think this is well known, is that the federal responsibility to provide training for aboriginals remains with the federal government. So we will be in common cause with the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr.

Hickes) and the aboriginal people in encouraging effective training of aboriginals through the federal responsibility. That is going to be, I agree with you, the basis of effective participation in our social and economic society in Manitoba. Ano ther thing on training, our Partners for Careers program, in spite of that federal obligation, is an initiative by the province in partnership with the federal government, and I am also very proud to say an initiative of several departments of our government­ Education and Training and our department.

The Partners for Careers program is geared. focused, on young people who graduate from high school and from community colleges and universities. It is designed to focus on them as the role models, people who because of their effort and their accomplishments should have jobs. The employer communit y who are partnering with the federal and provincial government in that initia tive throughout the province will be giving those opportunities. The aboriginal communit y ag encies involved in the program will be training those people. Mr.

Jim Be::tr who is in charge of that prograr.1 :md the advisory C( unci! of three employers and three youth representatives, aboriginal youths, young people, will hopefully contribute in significant ways to acc omplishing over the next three years not just some hundreds of jobs but some hundreds of role models who will influence others and show that it is worth sticking to it and staying in school and working your way through the system. He ma de a specific comment about government contracts, a suggestion.

I just want to give a caution, because I think it is something that we as members of the Legislature haw to be sensitive to, and that is there is a very del ica te balance that has to be maintained in terms of public goodwill and understanding. In our multic ultural society. we have many people, and, interestingly. I spoke to an aboriginal last night who felt very concerned about the division that might occur in the aboriginal community if we now move ahead with programs lik e Partners for Ca reers because he never had that opportunity and he was successful.

There is a great sense that we have in our society that everyone wants to be treated equally. and it sometimes requires an effort on our part to communi cate the reasons for these things. Sometimes it is the sta tistics and the historic injustices. and sometimes it is what

Section 15 of our Constitution says and what our human rights legislation says about accommodating af firmative action and accommodation programs. I have no hesitation supporting those for the aboriginal people because they are to me, with the understanding I have. real and special needs. and so we have to do special things. It is going to be of benefit to all Manitobans, not just abo riginals, al l Man itobans. We do have to invest in this and make an effort as a Manit oba communit y to address this special challenge, but we do have to be sensitive.

We have to ma ke sure that we do these things with understanding. We do walk in the moccasins of the people who have that historic attitude and have made those sacrifices and made it on their own. * (151 0) Having said that with the hydro power line that was put through Thicket Portage and Pikwitone i. just operational several weeks ago. 90 percent of the workers on that \vere aboriginal. They put the right-of- - -

April 17 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1581 way through. The ma jority of the workers on the hydro northeast-central power line are aboriginal workers. Historically, there has been a real commitment that way, to involve aboriginals in their employ in northern areas, and that commitment is reflected in those exa mples. The other thing about hydro, they allow a 10 percent premium on costs in the bidding process with respect to northern areas, so that the aboriginal construction companies can have an af firmative action kind of opportunity.

I might say our own Department of Northern Affairs has almost 30 percent aboriginal staff in their Northern Affairs office. So we are conscious of these. We do not have that arithmetical formula you suggest nor that policy. I appreciate your intent, but that is not a policy, and I do not think it is something that I would be prepared to recommend. It is a little too much of a quota kind of system, but the sentiments I have no hesitation agreeing with. With respect to the comment about the elde rs off­ reserve, you mentioned dia betes, kidney dialysis.

Whether it is age or infirmity or illness that causes someone to have to move out of their communities and come into the city, certainly I am very sensitized to that, very well aware of it and have taken a great interest in it and have a particula r involvement and interest, I might say, in the aboriginals and diabetes, the epidemic afflicting the aboriginal people and will be very pleased to contribute to the debate on that in the Legislature, if I have the opportunity this afternoon. The member for The Pas (Mr. Lat hlin) has put forward a resolution in that connection.

I think that it is timely and a desirable thing to bring forward and debate in the House, and it is an issue that will receive my at tention, effort and support. But the dislocation situation, I had an opportunity to see what Isla nd Lake support services is trying to do, for example, in providing sort of a comfort, a buddy system, a support system for people who do come into Winnipeg off-reserve, and that is something that is the kind of thing that the aboriginal community in Win nipeg, as I understand it, in a vol unteer way, participa tes in.

In fa ct, I atte nded a fundraiser by the Isla nd Lake support services where by far the ma jority of people there were representing the aboriginal commu nity in a fundraising dinner supporting the event, and I give them enormous credit for doing that. The focus on health and these basic social needs, I believe, is a tremendously important founda tion for the kind of training and economic development which will be the product of training that you referred to earlier.

If we do not address the problems of addiction, alcoho lism, addictions to drugs and gamblin g, and even some nutrition habits that contribute to dia betes, if we do not address those kinds of issues, if we do not address the problem of consuming alcohol when you are pregnant with the result that we end up with fetal alcohol syndrome and effects in children to be born and then suffering from it the rest of their life, if those kinds of problems are not addressed in that long-term preventive and in a persistent way that is measured, we will not realize the potential of those individuals or those communities.

I believe that is foundational. It is the basis for the kinds of accomplishments that are going to be necessary for the incremental achievemen ts necessary to move toward the goals which probably you and I would share for the aboriginal people of Manitoba. One final point, I just mention the midwifery bill which will be emerging, and it will be, I think, again, something that will contribute to health in the communities in a responsible way. Mr.

Dickes: When I raise these issues, do not take these issues personally, because a lot of this stuff that happened, happened years before you were el ected and years before you were appointed Minister ofNo rthern Affairs. When you talked about the treaty land entitlement ag reement, we applaud that. I do not know if you are aware, but in 19 80 we had an agreement in place. It was the federal Mulroney government that was holding it all back, so that is why it was never signed. When I raised the issue of low-income jobs, I do not know, I hear what you are saying, but also I hope you hear what I am saying.

When I am talking about meani ngful employment opportunities, the $5 .40-an­ hour jobs and the $6-, $7-an-hour jobs are not going to do it when you have a fam ily to feed. When you are a teenager living at home or a single person sharing

15 82 LE GI SLATIVE ASSE MBL Y OF MANITOBA April 17 , 19 97 ----------------�----�--- accommodations, sure, you might be able to do it but try raising a fam ily on that. It is pretty darn hard. If you look at Winni peg, the urban area, there are a lot of single mothers there. Some have three. four, five child ren. Are they going to be able to raise their fam ilies on a $5. 40-an-hour job?

That is why I say when we talk about training and employment, let us talk about training for employment opportunities so an individual can feel comfortable to feed their fa milies and to look after the means of themselves and their fa m ilies. That is why, if we train for cashier jobs or McDonald's jobs for $5 .40 an hour, I do not think that is the answer. I think we have to go beyond that. I am no different than anyone else. I wish the best for myself and my fa mily, and I am sure every other individual who is out there feels the say way, but I know, I know, I could not feed my fa mily on $5.4 0 an hour.

It is impossible. I would not be able to do it, and that is not what I wish upon other people. * (1 520) So when you talk about the importance of holding a job versus not holding a job, I agree with you. It is important to have a job, but it is also important to put food in the mouths of your children.

Some fa milies are on social assistance, and the only reason they are on social assistance is because they never had the opportunity to get their education and to get into higher paying jobs, where their rent is paid and they have food and stuff like that, and, now, when they go get a job you want them to go work for $5 .40, $6 an hour, but they have lunches, they have transportation expenses, they have babysitting expenses. They are further back, and they just will not be able to make ends meet.

That is why when we talk about training programs and governments talk about training programs for single mothers, you always have to make sure that those obstacles that stop an individual from taking advantage of those training opportunities are in place; for instance, daycare; for instance, transportation. I will give you a good exa mple of how hard­ government guidelines are government guidelines. I had an individual who phoned me, and she was a single-parent mother. and she said I am taking a training program. but part of my training program is I am on a work pla cement.

She said, I have two work pla cements; I work half a day, but I work one hour here and an hour and a half over there. So she said, I have to take a bus from home to one job and another bus from that job to the other job and then the bus home. We ll, she said. I really want to finish my training, George. and you know what. social assistance will not give me adequate bus tickets. I said, well, what do you mean? She said they just give me allo wance for half a month bus pass not the whole allo wance. I said, did you not explain it to your worker? She said, yes, but she says you are only halftime.

I said. yes, but you sti ll need a bus pass to go from there to there to there. So. finally, when she explained it. the v,orker finally gave her the allowance for the bus pass. But those are the kinds of silly things that we have to try and overcome. to enc ourage individuals to put proper support in place to make the opportunity for individuals for training and employment very. very meaningf ul. beca use most people you talk to do not want to be on social assistance. They do not, but a lot of them. they cannot afford not to be. see, and that is the problem for a lot of individuals.

So when I talk about meaningf ul employment, I am not making fun of $5 .40-or $6-an-hour jobs, because for a lot of people. individuals coming out. that is very important. But when you are single or even if your partner is employed. fine. you might be able to make it with two $6-an-hour jobs. but not if you are a single parent. It would be pretty. pretty darn difficult. That is where I was coming from on that one. I am really pl eased that the government found the money to pay that $75 milli on to pay down on the debt. but the government has a rainy day fund, and for a lot of individuals it is raining today.

I do not starve my fam ily for a \veek so I can put $10 0 in the bank. I make sure that my fam ily is looked after first. then if I have $10 0, I will put that $10 0 in the bank . but I will not starve my fam ily first. That is what has been happening for a lot of aboriginal people. I am gla d that you are a new minister because you will see where your government has made some changes. and from your sincerity and -

April17 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 83 from what you are saying I hope that you will change some of the actions of your government in the past. You talked about 90 percent of hydro lines going to communities at Thicket Portage and Pukata wagan-was it Pukatawagan? An Honourable Member: Pikwitonei. Mr. Hickes: Pikwitonei? Okay, going into those communities. and 90 percent of the brush cutting, I am sure. would be the brush cutting by aboriginal or northern people.

That is a real good commitment, and the other, when they lay the lines in, I hope you are aware of this-well, you must be because you are the Min ister of Energy and Mines-that now that Manitoba Hydro has linemen or line people, whatever they call them now, training a lot of aboriginal people as linemen, when they graduate they will be at very good employment levels, and they will be able to feed their fa milies and look after them. Now, that is a commitment by a Crown corporation.

Now you see why we fight so hard to protect Crown corporations, because if that was a private company, do you think that would have happened? When you were speaking earlier, you were saying that it would be hard to implement quotas or percentages for contractors that go into contracts with governments, but you were free to use a Crown corporation as an excelle nt model of more aboriginal people and more northern individuals being hired.

So when we talk about the possibility of a contractor that contracts with Northern Affairs or contracts with whomever in northern Ma nitoba, there is already a precedent that has been set by the building of the lim estone dam. There was a 25 percent northern preferential hiring clause built into all contracts, and there was no problem. I never heard anyth ing about the government being taken to court over that, and I know, I research back.

I was also involved in that whole limestone project, that before limestone came to be and that percentage was in place-and it was pretty well met throughout the period of the whole contract stages-with all the previous dams that were built in northern Manitoba there were anywhere from 3 to 4 percent. The highest that was achieved that was on record was 9 percent. So that was a tremendous increase and golden opportunities that were achieved for northern aboriginal people.

A lot of those aboriginal people who went through the training and got work and got employment and got their certification, a lot of the individuals are now working and employed in their own home communities. I will give you a good example. We were in St. Theresa Point, and we did a TV show. They shut the local stations off, and you have a local show. We had our little spiels, and then they opened the lines for people to phone in. One individual called in and said are you the same George Hickes that was on the lim estone training, and I said yes. He said, well, you wait there, don't leave, I have to see you.

So I said okay. This individual came about 20 minutes la ter. We were just standing around shooting the breeze waiting for the calls to come in, and this individual came up and shook my hand. Gary Doer, my Lea der, was standing right beside me. This individual says, I just wanted to come and thank you in person, because I was almost let go from lim estone training, but you looked after it where I was not released, and I continued and finished my levels; now I am a certified journeyman carpenter. He said, you know what I am doing now? I said no. He said, I am the shop teacher for my own school.

That person's chest was about here with pride, with a deep amount of pride. Those are examples that we could accomplish and we should be ac complishing. We should be acc omplishing those kinds of things in northern Manitoba. When you talked about, like, your government has done-it is fine; I applaud. Whatever your government does for aboriginal people, I applaud you. I will pat you on the back, whatever you want, but you are new. You are new, and I am glad of that, because I do not think you are aware of what has happened in the past to aboriginal people by your government.

That is why we as aboriginal members get skeptical. Sometimes we get a little bitter at times, but we always question the sincerity of what you say now as the minister because of what we have seen and what we have experienced. If you take one step ahead and people applaud that, fine, but do not take three steps back because it will never catch up.

15 84 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April17 , 19 97 I will give you a few examples, and I do not know if you are aware of these, but since I have been here you talked about Access, the importance of Access, and Access is very, very important for training programs. A lot of your pre-med and pre-engineering programs under Access, some individuals had to go for one year, two years, to get their academic standings up to get into engineering and doctors programs, and that is because of our lack of science labs and stuff in northern Manitoba. So that is understandable.

It is not because people are silly or the southern people are brighter than the northern people. That is not the case. It is because a lot of the northern people did not have the opportunity to get into the sciences like southern students do here because of the availability of labs and on and on and on. The Access program that you were just speaking to-and it is not this minister; it is previous, previous, previous; it is the government-has been cut. In '94, the Access program was cut by $2 million and in '95 by $1. 4 million, okay? That is the Access program you were just speaking to.

Some students were caught in the middle of different funding-[ interjection] Yes, they had to go to court to continue with their funding, and the government even appealed it. * (1 530) Also, the seats were reduced by up to-had reduced provincial funding seats by 15 5 seats, reduced an nonrepayable bursary, eliminated two Access programs, Electrical Technology and Civil Technology, reduced the engineering program and reduced staff for Access. With the engineering program, there is going to be built bridges and dams and whatever have you.

We will always need engineers, and I was glad to see that the University of Thunder Bay picked that up. At least our aboriginal people who wish to be engineers will have a place to go. Did you know that BUNTEP, the northern bachelor of nursing which provides for aboriginal students to become teachers and nurses, was also cut? New Careers, well, it is eliminated now. It was totally cut, and New Careers was a program that took disadvantaged and low income o; what have you, aboriginal people, visible minorities and people who were on social assistance.

A lot of it was a very high success rate because the trammg program went in modules. You signed on for two years and you went to class for two weeks, and then you were on the job learning for six weeks and then two weeks in the classroom. The knowledge you were getting in the classroom you were able to implement on the job, so that way you kept growing and growing. Then the agreement was that if you successfully graduated, the agency or whoever you trained for would hire you.

When you look around our jails in Manitoba, you will see a fair number of aboriginal people as correction officers. and most of those individuals went through the New Careers Program to be trained as aboriginal correction officers. Some of those individuals, after about 16 years. are still employed with Corrections. and that is a great accomplishment, a great accomplishment. Then I am sure you are aware of our II Indian and Metis Friendship Centres. I 00 percent funding was cut-$ 1. 2 million. just bang one day. In one day the funding was cut.

That was for youth counsellors, career counsellors. recreation workers and all the things that we hear coming from Justice. Anytime you speak to any group or organization on justice or youth, that is one of the examples they always give. There is such a high need for recreation programs, and we need a chance for career opportunities. When you hear those children and families speaking-it is no secret. you know.

A lot of the problems we have today are directly related to poverty. because when you have poverty you have hopelessness. and a lot of people give up and they just do not give a damn anymore. so the cycle continues on and on. If you give an individual a career, a meaningful career that they are choosing. and help the families to get out of the life of poverty and give them jobs, that is the secret to a lot of the problems that we have right now. is give people jobs; give them their hopes back. It is no big secret. Are you aware that MKO was cut $78.500. that their funding was cut?

The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. $325 ,000, their provincial funding was gone, and in June of '94, payments for foster parents was cut from $20 to $10 , and in a lot of First Nations and northern communities 80 percent of the aboriginal foster care - -

April 17 , 19 97 LE GISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 85 placements occur within extended families because there is a strong belief that families should try and be kept together, 80 percent. In '93, the province cut funding for the Northern Fishermen's Freight Assistance. That was cut, and that is where my colleague from The Pas got into a little bit of a hassle with the Speaker, because he named it something that some people were saying- An Honourable Member: He is not the only one. Mr. Hickes: Yes, that is what I mean.

A lot of the northern people were saying it was a "blank" policy, directly aimed at aboriginal people because the majority of your fishermen in northern Manitoban are aboriginal, so that is why a lot of people view it for what it is. I will not use the word because I do not want to cause any problems here. Then the northern hospitals, they have been cut. A funny thing, too, you know, a lot of the communities, the individuals who are sitting at this table work in and have been visiting and know a lot of the people there, and a lot of those communities are very poor communities.

When you have individuals who have an accident or have to be flown out, do you know now they have to come up with $50, a $50 user fee, to get an ambulance? So what happens? Sometimes that will stop an individual from coming out. It might be just a pain in the stomach or what have you, but how do you know it is not someone's appendix ready to burst? There are no doctors in those communities. It is just a guessing game, and if they do not have the $50, what do they do? You are penalizing people who have very little means as it is.

A lot of them are seasonal employees, and so for part of the year they have very little income. I do not have to mention, you have heard lots about the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. That pretty well is becoming a doorstop. You were mentioning earlier about youth justice committees. St. Theresa Point had an excellent program, and the community was very, very proud of that. Do you know what happened to that program? The funding ran out and that was it. They would not renew it, yet there is supposed to be a million dollars set aside to implement AJI every year. St.

Theresa Point used to have one of the highest problems with gas sniffing and youth problems, and they used to have a youth justice committee to deal with their problems within their own community, but it was only funded for a year or two, and then the funding was cut off. It was very little funding. It was not that expensive of a program. The Children's Dental Program, the dialysis unit in The Pas is not operating. People have to drive to Flin Flon. The Flin Flon Crisis Centre, Keewatin Community College has been-no one has to explain to you about conditions of the northern highways.

Could you imagine if you had a highway in the condition of driving from Thompson to LeafRapids, if the highway, say, from Winkler to Morden was in that kind of condition? What would happen? People would be up in arms, and something would be done. Do you know that is still a gravel road? An Honourable Member: Is it a road really? Mr. Hickes: Well, it is a gravel road, and it is so dusty and it is so dangerous that a lot of the individuals­ sometimes the police or the ambulance will not even go on that road, will not even travel that highway.

My colleague from Thompson and my col league from Rupertsland were up there this year with the chief and council from Nelson House, hoping to get something done. So those are the kinds of examples I am drawing to you as a new minister, and I do not know. Would you have let these things happen if you were the minister of the day? From what you are saying and the way you are saying it and the way you are coming across, I would be very surprised. I would be very surprised, because you are coming out being sincere, and you really mean well, and you really want to do the right thing for the aboriginal community.

So when you wonder sometimes why we as aboriginal members get skeptical and we ask some questions at times, that is why. I just named you a whole bunch of the cuts that for sure have not benefited aboriginal people. A lot of those cuts that you made as cuts used to be a great benefit to northern and aboriginal people in northern Manitoba and in the city.

15 86 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 17 , 19 97 That is why aboriginal people always-now you hear we will wait and see. It is because of that. What you are saying that your government has done, that is fine. That is the one step ahead, but what I just told you here, those are the three steps back, and that does not help people.

If you would have continued, even little baby steps, forward, not taken the big steps back, I think people would have been a lot better off. * (1 540) That is why I had to draw that to your attention, because I do not know if you are aware of what has happened in the past-[ interjection] An Honourable Member: That was before he was elected. Mr. Hickes: A lot of them happened before you were elected in 1995.

A lot of them happened between 1990 and 19 95, and I know that we all get elected because we mean well and we want to do the best for our constituents and the best for the people of Manitoba, no matter what colour or creed they come from, but we have to start being sincere and show that we are sincere. I talked about action. We need action, and I hope you are the person who will bring that about because we really, really need it. You talk to Mary Richard and George Campbell. He is from Norway House. He has worked for years for Indian Affairs.

You will not get a person who has more knowledge than he does about northern Manitoba and about the aboriginal people. He will tell you the truth. You sit down with him. He will tell you the truth. His brother Ed has worked for northern manpower for years. They used to go around and work with the people. They have lived the life. You talked about walking in someone's moccasins. Well, I hope you will encourage him to speak freely and openly with you, and I hope you will listen to your northern staff who see this every day. You have a lot of good people at the table here.

I know some of the individuals sitting around this table. I have known them for years and I have seen them in different roles, and the heart is there, the commitment is there, the knowledge is there, and I hope you will accept and use that knowledge to the betterment of northern and aboriginal-when I say aboriginal I am talking about all northerners, all northern and especially aboriginal people who have been hit by a lot of these cuts. I just wanted to draw that to your attention. I am not trying to put you on the spot or anything.

I just want you to be aware of it. because Eric or Oscar or myself, we have raised these kinds of questions, and that is why we sit back sometimes and say I hope this individual is sincere this time. because we have been told lots of times, since I have been here in 19 90, yes, this will happen, this will happen. this will happen. Lots of times those things just do not happen, and the government says there is no money. Well, like I mentioned to you earlier, there is a rainy day fund. and as a small example. in northern and urban centres right now. it is raining out there.

I hope the government is not just putting the money aside for an election slush fund because people need the help. I think that is what we are here for. I really believe that. I really believe that we are here to help people. I still believe it. The day I stop believing it. that is the day I will not be here. simple as that. So I just wanted to share that with you. I did not want to get into an argument or a debate, or you justifying. You can say what you want, but I just wanted to put that on the record. Thank you. Mr.

Newman: Just to respond to a number of the points raised and just a general comment about the history that you have described. and I am not going to get into the history because for as long as there is government at any level. tough decisions have to be made about priorities. and tough decisions have to be made about whether or not a program has sort of run its course and something better should happen. Some programs are dependent on partnerships, and in many cases with the aboriginal people, it is with the federal government.

They have partnerships necessarily. and in many cases the federal government changes a policy, and we have to decide as a government whether we will continue a program with 100 percent responsibility by us or on a reduced basis or whether it should be continued at all. So there are all kinds of reasons which are thoughtfully considered by any government. and then you have to make a decision. - -

April 17 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 87 I make no apologies and, in fact, speak with pride-and I have done this before, I think, in discussions with you-of the provincial long-term economic strategy. It is the kind of discipline like one has when they deal with their own personal budgets. You have to have some sort of economic discipline on basics, and then you deal with all the other decisions within that framework. But in the economic strategy you have a mixed investment portfolio if you have enough resources, and sometimes you invest in the long term.

You put aside money for your basic health needs and basic education needs of your children. You invest some sorts of things on a risk basis which may or may not tum out, and with virtually all social investments, the long-term social things, you are never sure, but with the best research you make the best decisions, and you hope that by spending money on a diabetes prevention program, that 20 years down the road you are going to have a reduced incidence of diabetes in a given population. Sometimes you are wrong so you have to make corrections and you change.

So I am not going to go back into the past and analyze each one of the programs, and it would not be productive for this exercise. I will never hesitate to acknowledge that sometimes in hindsight a kind of program that now in the light of today's day you might have said, yeah, maybe we should have kept that one; maybe that one was working. But funding bodies like MKO and AMC, I, with hindsight, would have no hesitation saying that that was the correct thing to do, and I had to make the decision, do I support the decision not to provide core funding to the MMF, and I take responsibility for that decision.

The budget, that aspect, was really in place before I became a minister, but I supported that, and I support it to this day because I think that is best for the Metis people. I am not a supporter of doing anything which is going to negatively contribute to bodies like MMF taking responsibility for their own communities. I can tell you that I am urging MMF to develop a kind of fee structure.

I mean, I would love to see them have memberships based on a contribution, certainly so it does not deter anyone because they cannot afford it, but to start funding their own organization to a certain extent just like our northern communities. I mean, I am moving in a direction where I believe that healthy, sustainable, more self-relying communities will be a product of not just physical effort and commitment but also investment in these communities. Then they have a sense of ownership.

I happen to come from the school of thought also, which I say with some pride, that I think is the basis of a charity like Habitat for Humanity. When there is ownership of something, there is a tendency to take care, and the value we have in our society for private property is represented in that philosophy. So programs that engender more self-responsibility, I think that is a direction that you can expect me to go in, with no surprise. You mentioned some specific things. That is enough for history. You mentioned some specific things.

You commented about the 19 80 treaty land entitlement not being signed because ofthe Mulroney government. I do not know any of that history through your eyes, and I will probably never have the chance to study it, but one of the ways of achieving agreements has to be to have a relationship with another government, so if you could not achieve that with the federal government, that is too bad.

But one has to do things to achieve agreement, so if you failed, I do not think that can be attributable just to one party. * (1 550) You talked about trying to raise a family on the minimum wage, and you went through some scenarios and said that in some cases that would be a single parent trying to support self and family. That is why we as a government in our ChildrenFirst strategy have a whole host of initiatives that are focused on the issue of adolescent pregnancy. This is an issue between males and females, and one of the programs is educating males about that.

All of these are found in the ChildrenFirst Strategic Plan for Discussion published in March of 19 97. It has a whole host of suggested strategies, and I am going to commend you to look at these and give me feedback as to whether or not these are on the right kind of track, whether these might contribute. One is called

15 88 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri117 , 19 97 Preventing Adolescent Pregnancy, a development of a strategy to stop adolescent pregnancy. Another one is called On the Move, an initiative designed to encourage adolescent girls to participate in fun-filled, supportive, low-level team recreation. Another program called Baby Think it Over Project, Identification of Best Practice, is using the parenting simulation experience, a computer programmable doll to delay adolescent pregnancies.

In that instance, the dolls would be distributed through the Manitoba Home Economics Teachers' Association, and the Children and Youth Secretariat will analyze the results of the project. Another proposed project is an Options Counselling Initiative: Mandatory referral to public health within designated geographic region; case management, counselling, monitoring and options will be provided. This is one of the recommendations that came out of the Adolescence and Pregnancy Steering Committee.

All of those documents which were tabled in the House are the kinds of contributions to overcoming the kinds of root causes of im poverishment in certain families, and rather than just suggesting simplistically that the answer is getting someone a high-paying job right off the bat, sometimes there have to be steps in that direction, and down the road, I mean upstream, upstream, we are looking at thinking prevention. We are looking at introducing, we are introducing those kinds of things which hopefully will result in fewer pregnancies by single parents.

It is a male and a female responsibility, and the strategies identify that and address that. There are other foundational things. Why is it that someone who is single desires, in some cases desires to bring a child into the world? Sometimes it is out of loneliness, and sometimes it is because you are unloved. I mean, there are all kinds of complicated things and you know that, but when you think prevention, you think of making those sorts of investments of government time and energy, and you try and get broad community support for it, because the answers are not through civil servants always, sometimes rarely.

The answers lie in families; they lie in religious organizations; they :�·:olve mentors in volunteer involvements, coaches and sometimes brothers and sisters in the Brothers and Sisters movement, aboriginal elders, all of the influences of a sometimes extended family. We now recognize this, I think, as a government, so we are doing a lot of things differently, and our Children and Youth Secretariat, through its research and consultations, is recognizing those kinds of things.

To the extent they focus on programs through the aboriginal community, we are there and we are supporting those kinds of things, and we are looking for agents in the community, people in the community, to buy into these approaches and support them and work with us.

With respect to removing obstacles to getting and holding jobs other than those sorts of obstacles which are sometimes created by one's own lifestyle choices or products of their environment, there are obstacles that are bureaucratic, obstacles which can be overcome by government or even eliminated because of government getting involved in changing the way they do things. That is why we have the Taking Charge! program, for example, addressing single parents getting into the job market.

I am not sure how familiar you are with that program, but it is no accident that the executive director of that program is an aboriginal, a very successful aboriginal, Rosa Walker, who, interestingly, had training, amongst other jobs, working in the banking industry in human resources. The sort of roles that are being played by that organization is precisely the kind of thing you are talking about, and that is a partnership. That is federal government and provincial government involvement in that program, and that does have child support, daycare support. It has a mentorship kind of thing.

It has facilitators who follow up with the employers and is sort of a service to people who are struggling with jobs, someone to talk to if they have a jam, a personal problem. So that is an initiative, and there is a wonderful initiative, I know, involving the organization that I used to be the president of, the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, and they are providing all kinds of employment opportunities for people on welfare. The program, as I understand it, is working quite well in that same accommodative way. -

Aprill7 , 19 97 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 89 I support attempts to educate the employer community about the importance of understanding the personal needs of working parents, and it is in their self-i nterest, I believe, to make adjustments in that respect, even in terms of economic self-in terest of the enterprise, and I think they are starting to understand that. * (1 600) That is why we, our department, have supported things like the High/Scope Perry Preschool Program research when those people came to Winnipeg.

I can say that I had impressed on the business community in some discussions and speeches I had given that they should take on the challenge, just like some ofthem did with respect to environmental matters, and make it a new moral imperative of corporate social responsibility to address the needs of the yet unborn and the zero to six-year-old age group, because with respect to aboriginal populations, you have pointed out that 25 percent of the population in the city in the year 2016 will be aboriginal workers. So there is a need for the employer community to get ready for that, and they have to start now.

With respect to your point, and I know it was done with a smile on your face, about Manitoba Hydro and its initiatives on behalf of aboriginal people and suggesting that that would not happen with the private sector, I am a proud supporter of both Crown corporations like Manitoba Hydro and also a proud supporter of the private sector enterprises that generate wealth, which pays taxes, and meaningful jobs and a spirit which I think is consistent with the spirit of the North and I would even argue the spirit of the aboriginal people for entrepreneurism.

Some of the best ones, as the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) knows, are from the band that he was once the chief of, and one of the great entrepreneurs in the history of Manitoba is Gordon Lathlin from that very band whose name he mentioned. In my discussions with people from the North and from my readings of the North, there was an economic visionary who really is responsible in large measure, as I understand it, for the blueprint which has resulted in what the Opaskwayak Band has built by way of an economy there.

There are some of the best entrepreneurs we have in the province right in that band, and there are many others. I encounter all the time the Jim Bears and many others. (Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) The private sector is involved more and more in supporting the kinds of initiatives that Manitoba Hydro supports.

Whether it is The North West Company or Arctic Co-op or First Nations Beverages or the banks, you look at the corporate sponsors of John Kim Bell's blueprints for careers seminar, the Native Arts Foundation event just held this month in Winnipeg, there is a real interest in supporting aboriginals getting involved in careers in the private sector. Again, I know that members opposite have attended with me on a number of occasions events sponsored by the Council for Aboriginal Business and other kinds of events.

Again, the representation filling banquet rooms in the hotels is tremendously impressive, hundreds of people, 600 to 1 ,000 people at those kinds of events in the city of Winnipeg. I think that is very positive. So I think it is very important that you as aboriginal leaders in your own right work together with our government and work together with the private sector and the Crown corporations and the communities to help tum the comer and get aboriginals more employment and better employment opportunities.

You have to start somewhere, and if you start at a minimum wage job, and you get some training experience, great. I know that I see the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) wanting to speak, so I am going to allow him to jump into the picture. I just wanted to share your poignant description of the St. Theresa Point certified journeyman carpenter and his gratitude. I share the goals. I share the sentiments. What we might different in from time to time are the methods of getting there, but that is why you are on one side of the House and we are on the other side of the House.

I think the people support our approach more than yours, and I am glad that the majority of people in Manitoba, I think, agree with the philosophy which I am espousing here today.

15 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITO_BA __ __ __ A__._p_ ri_l 1_7-'---, _19_9_7 Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I appreciate much of the discussion here because I think what we need in this Estimates discussion about the Department of Northern and Native Affairs is to get some greater understanding, I believe, from the minister and the government of the reality of northern Manitoba. I appreciate the minister's efforts and I share the sentiment expressed by the member for Point Douglas (Mr.

Hickes) who was born in northern Manitoba, used to live in northern Manitoba and obviously still speaks for many of our concerns. I note that we have four representatives, perhaps more broadly there may be five or six if you include some of these with Northern Affairs communities. When there are 57 MLAs, Mr. Chairperson, you have to understand we need every ally we can get. We do not have the numbers of people.

We do not have the numbers of MLAs, and we constantly have to fight, lobby, plead, urge, whatever mechanism is available. [interjection] Well, it is not that much of a threat when you are four out of 57, but we try our best. I do want to say to the minister that I know he would rather have it both ways when it comes to talking about the government's record. I noticed in Question Period today-I think it is unfortunate because I think the minister is already falling into some of the bad habits set by some of the other cabinet ministers.

I noticed when we asked a question about the urban aboriginal strategy, and we said, welL this was announced in 19 89. Now, some of us might be excused for being a little bit cynical when t