Third Session • Thlrty·Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Speaker VOL. XLII No. 64A • 1:30 p.m., MONDAY, MAY 17,1993 JSSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thlrty·Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOM IAK, Dave CUMMIN GS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKE S, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heigh ts Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Ste inbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emer son Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

2994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 17,1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Christine Maniel, Don Russick, Greg Maniel and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restor ing the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Diane Hofer, Isaac Hofer, Debbie Hofe r and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993-94 budget. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lillian Kleinsasser, Dave Waldner, Joseph Waldner and others requesting the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. *** Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan Riv er): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Albert Sigurdson, Barbara Tapp, Ken Sigurdson and others reques ting the Man itoba Minis ter of Agriculture (Mr.

Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers as soon as possible on the issue of removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Canadian Wheat Board. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Storie). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHEREA S Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Childr•en's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and trea tment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many fam ilies in isolated communities; and

WHEREAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and WHER EAS preventative health care is an essential component of health care reform . WHEREFORE your petiti oners humbly pray that the Legislative Asse mbly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Wowchuk).

It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petiti on read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WH EREAS the Canadian Whea t Board has played a vital role in the orderly marketing of Canadian wheat, barley and other grain products since its inception in 19 35; and WHERE AS the federal Minister of Agriculture is considering removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Wheat Board; and WHERE AS this is another step towards dismantling the board; and

2995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 93 WHERE AS, as in the case with the removal of oats from the Wheat Board in 198 9, there has been no consultation with the board of directors of the Whea t Board, with the 11 -me mber advisory comm ittee to the boar d or the producer s themselves; and WHERE AS the federal minister has said that there will be no plebiscite of farmers before the announcement is made. WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Manitoba Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers on this issue as soon as possible. *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS the United Nations has declared 19 93 the Inte rnational Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Ind igenous People: a new partnersh ipw; and WHERE AS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and WHERE AS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and WHE REAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as: assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, fam ilies in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy; WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. • (1335) *** Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Dewar) . It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed) Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that : WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and trea tment health � care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and WHERE AS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extr emely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WHER EAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and WHERE AS preventative health care is an essential component of health care ref orm.

WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Asse mbly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restori ng the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 33-The Provincial Railways and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Dow ney), tha t Bi ll 33, The Pro vincial Railw ays and Consequential Amendment s Act (Loi concernant les chemins de fer provinciaux et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenan t-Governor, having been advi sed of the conte nts of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I would like to table the message as well. Motion agreed to.

May 17 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2996 Bill 35-The Fisheries Amendment Act Hon. Ha rry Enns (Minis ter of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchar d), that Bill 35, The Fisheries Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia peche), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenan t-Gove rnor, having been advised of the conte nts of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I will be tabling the message as well. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the R.H. G. Bonnycastle School, thirty Grade 5 students under the direction of Ms. Regan Rasmussen.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey). Also this afte rnoon, from the Willow Grove School, we have fourteen Grades 5-9 students under the direction of Mr. Dayton Penner. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this aftern oon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Hydro Arnl Thorstelnson Appointment Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

On May 5, cabinet replaced a former Tory fundraiser on the Board of Directors of Manitoba Hydro, one Mr. Terry Stratton, who had received the ultimate, I guess, in terms of Tory fundraising rewards and been appointed to the Senate. They replaced one Tory fundraiser on that Manitoba Hydro Board with another Conser vative fundraiser, one Arni Thorste inson, who of course was appointed to the Board of Manitoba Hydro on May 5 to replace Terry Stratton.

By correspondence that we have received, we know he is the chairman of the PC Manitoba fund, the fund that was sending out letters on April 28 to numerous businesses and organizations across Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, it appears to us that this board spot is reserved for a Conse rvative fundraising person, and I would like to ask the Premier wha t the qualifications of Mr. Thorste inson were to appoint him to that board of directors. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, Mr. Thor ste inson is probably on more boards of dire ctors of more national corporations than all but a handful of Manitobans.

I know that he is on the board of, for instance, one of the banks in Canada, Purolator Corporation-there are several of them. I will get the list, but Mr. Thorste inson, because of his vast business experience--he is president of one of the largest development companies in Manitoba, does business throughout North America, United States, and so on. Because of those qualifications, he is emi nently qualified, better qualified than most of the people who are ever appointed to boards and commissions by New Democrats, I can tell you that. *

(1340) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Thorste inson has also been appoi nted by Brian Mulroney to the Petro-Canada Board of Directors. Here we see fundraisers sending out letters to businesses all across Manitoba. They are sending out letters in the morning to many of these businesses and in the afternoon of course they are making decisions on boards of directors dealing with procurement by Manitoba Hydro of millions and millions of dollars.

Does the Premier not think, given the fact that Jules Benson had to quit under The Civil Service Act his position as a fundraiser for the Conser vative Party when the Premier appointed him to Treasury Board, there is a problem here with a �rson who is involved in raising money for the Conservative Party in the morning, making decisions on procurement policies worth tens of millions of dollars in the afte rnoon? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe the hypocrisy of this member opposite.

The memb er who is sitting behind him, one David Chomiak, when he was a member of the equivalent of the Crown Corporations Council, was sending out fundraising letters to the corporate community in this province on behalf of New Dem ocrats. One Marty Dolin, who was at that time the husband of a minister of government in the New Democratic government, later became himself a memb er of the New Democratic government, was a bagman-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

2997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 17 , 19 93 Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader}: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I realize that our rules in terms of what is parliamentary and what is not usually covers sitting members, but I would perhaps like to remind the First Minister this is the 1 990s and people are no longer referred to as being spouses or appendages. People are refe rred to as being their own individuals with their own views. Perhaps the First Minister might wish to consider that. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point of order.

It Is clearly a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, a final question to the Premier on the qualifications of the individual whom he has so vigorously defended. On April 27, a judgment was made on behaH of the Province of Manitoba dealing with the Manitoba Housin g and Rene wal Corporation for three companies owned by Mr. Thorste inson adding up to funds of some $6 million that were owed to corporations that are in the ownership of the Province of Manitoba.

This judgment was made a week before the Premier and cabinet appointed this individual to the Board of Directors of the Manitoba Hydro corporation. Mr. Speaker, has the member whom the Premier has defended, did he pay back the money to the Province of Manitoba in the seven days between the time the judgment was arrived at by the Court of Queen's Bench and the time the government appointed him to that board? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, speaking of paying back the government, the member could tell us whether or not he and his member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) repaid student loans. Mr.

Speaker, we deal with every single person, regardless of their political stripe, on a businesslike basis, and that is why we do not give special favours to any individual regardless of their political persuasion. * (1 345) Radon Gas Report Release Ms. MarlanneCerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the problem of radon gas in Manitoba has been raised again in a study showing that not only are our levels the worst in the country, but that they have increased more than three times the level in the '80s. It is also clear that this government is not doing every thing they could to take seriously this problem.

I would ask the Minister of Environment: Why was the report on the levels of radon outside the city of Winnipeg not released indepen dently? Hon. Glen Cummings ( .. nlster of Environment): I am not sure what the member means by being released Indepen dently. The fact is that meetings were held in the communities outside of Winnipeg. The media was invited and members of the local councils. The meeting s were open in order to try and present the information that went beyond what was known bef ore. That is what concerns me about the attention that this particular item is receiving today.

Some three years ago, three and a half years ago, this province released all the information that we had available at that point regarding radon. We put together what is considered one of the most comprehens ive and useful radon guides for homeowners. I am looking at this one; this was the second printing already in October of 1989. So, Mr. Speaker, this government has taken a lot of time and effort to make sure that Manitobans are aware of the issue. Building Code Regulations Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, what we are talking about is a more proactive approach that is going to let people know that our homes in Manit oba have a higher level than radioactive contaminated sites in Ontario. I would ask the Minister of Environment: Why have the building codes of Manitoba not been changed so that regulations are strengthened in this area, regulations that have been developed but are not implemented by this government? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Those regu latory changes, which have been worked on and put together in conjunction with the industry-that is one of the things that disturbs me, however, is that we should perhaps be very careful on how we deal with this issue , because at the same time as we want to make sure that Manitobans have all of the information available to them, I would like to point out that an information bulletin went out of our department earlier this year, as well.

May 17 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2998 In that bulletin, it has been indicated that we have some preliminary results from a decade-long study that has been done by Canada Health and Welfare, a study which they will be releasing later this year. They presented us with information of their preliminary results, and the indications are that they have been unable to establish any relationship between the health effects and high radon levels or household levels of radon as we have in this province. Ms. Cerllll: Mr.

Speaker, it concerns me that this minister would get into a battle over research studies when there is something as serious as this that has been shown to be related to cancer and is in the government's ow n-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Radisson, with your question. Home Repair Assistance Program Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): My question for the Minister of Environment is: What consideration has this government given to a loan and cost assistance program to help homeowners cover the cost of $1 ,500 to radon-proof their homes? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated, we have taken the position we took back in 19 89 and it has been reconfi rmed, as a matter of fact, by the information that has been recently released, in fact, reconfi rms the information we had in 1 989 thatthe concerns are such that a person, if they wish, can acquire the expertise to have the test done of any particular levels of radon or find if there are particular levels in their dwelling, and we provide as much information as we can as to how it can be mitigated. Frankly, the implication that this could cost up to $1 ,500-it can be considerably less as well.

Radon Gas Home Repair Assistance Program Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): My question also is for the Minister of Environment. I have listened to his answers to my colleague's questions, Mr. Speaker , and I am reminded of the October 5, 1 989, press release in which this minister said that he would be forthwith putting in radon protection provisions into the Manitoba Building Code. He also produced a facts sheet at that time which said that radon-rela ted safeguards would be included in amendmen ts to the Manitoba Building Code. It has been three and a half years, Mr. Speaker.

When is this minister intending on actually following through on commitments made three and a half years ago about a problem that he said at the time, correctly, was extr emely serious? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, this is not just a result of an action by this departm ent, but the co-ordination of the other departments and the National Building Code , that we will then be able to make sure that houses that are built in the province, the newer ones, are built to standards that would provide the protection against any intake of gas. * (1 350) Mr.

Edwards: I asked about these press releases that are about the Manitoba Building Code, Mr. Speaker. It has been three and a half years and nothing has been done. My furth er question, Mr. Speaker, is for the minister: Given that this minister has agreed this is an extre mely serious problem and it is relatively inexpens ive in most cases to deal with, is this minister prepared to speak to his colleague the minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr.

Downey) to canvass the possibility of giving loans to be paid back over time through Hydro payments, as has been done in the past, for this type of home improvement activity which can only help the health of Manitobans throughout this province? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the member implies that this is a matter that should be dealt with on an emer gency basis or dealt with through a government program that would fund the correction of the problem. Mr.

Speaker, as I said earlier, while we are concerned about what any of these elevated read ings may mean, they are naturally occurring, and the studies that we have from the Department of Health and Welfare do not indicate that there is a dem onstrable relationship in terms of cause and effect. Mr. Speaker, I think the best approach is that we keep ourselves informed, that we make sure that the public has an opportunity to be informed, and if they believe the concern is of a level that they wish to do something about it, that the information be available.

2999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 17 , 19 93 Building Code Regulations Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, the minister's booklet says: Radon is a significant contributor towards lung cancer deaths. My question for the minister: He talks about me wanting to deal with this on an em ergency basis. When is he going to put the provisions into the Manitoba Building Code dealing with radon gas? Three and a half year&- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me that the member is unwilling to recognize a considerable amount of work that has been done. This province had a demon stration project in 19 88-89 in the northern part of the city of Winnipeg where we did extensive studies and spent a considerable amount of the industry's money and provincial taxpayers' money making sure that the guidelines for construction were put in place. Mr. Speaker, the information gathered there, combined with the information gathered by Canada Department of Health and Welfare , indicates this is the best way of dealing with the issue.

Organic Farming Minister's Position Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan Ri ver): Mr. Speaker, last week I asked the Minis ter of Agriculture about organic farming practices in Manitoba, and the minister indicated he felt there had been adequate research done into the effects of chemicals used in the farm process and in the way in whic h chemicals are used in Manitoba. Will the minister tell the House today if his idea about the value of organic farm ing has changed in any way, given the results of the recent study published by the American Journal of Epidemiology which links the use of herbicides with prostate cancer? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, over the course of the last number of years, there has been a lot of concern about the use of chemicals in the operation of a farm. We have a registration process in Canada that is the best in the world in terms of determining precautions to be used in the handling of chem icals.

My department and myseH have been advocating that farmers follow the precautions, particularly in the use of clothing, rubber gloves and masks, because they are handling the chemical in a concentrated fashion when they are transferring it from a container into a sprayer, and certainly farmers are at risk.

I think what this sort of information does highlight to farmers is that they should follow the safety precautions because, to tell you the truth, when surveys are done to determine if farmers are following the precautions, many are not following them to the letter of the requirement to guarantee safe handling of the chemicals. So it is important that these studies are done. It does highlight the need to use safety practices, and those practices do exist. They are part of the precautions on the labels of all chemicals used in agriculture. Agricultural Industry Chemical Health Risks Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan Ri ver): Mr. Speaker, the minister tells us that farmers are at risk here. Will the minister tell this House what steps his government will be taking to monitor the health impacts on farmers in Manitoba to assure the safety of the producers and the consumers and to be sure that the regulations are being followed and that we prevent this health risk that is out there right now? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the department has put together an Agriculture Chem icals in the 19 90s video that was presented to the farm community in the past years.

It helps to highlight safe use of chemicals. We have a process of licensing all pesticide retailers so they can then pass on the level of education to all farmers. We , certai nly, through the course of the normal extension activities of the department and any time that I speak to people involved with chemicals, always accentuate all the precautions that should be used. We cannot guarantee that farmers will follow them. We continue to accentuate that they should and all the reasons why they should.

We also have done a survey to look at the degree to which farmers are using these, and it does show that rubber gloves, which is one of the really important ways to protect yourseH, are used by n percent of the

May 17 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3000 participants, which is much higher than it was ten years ago-much, much higher. * (1 355) Ms. Wowchuk: Can the minister tell the House then whether he has read this study and whether he will direct his department staff to undertake further research that is recommended by the author of the studies, and under take mea sures to educate farmers and protect farm er s against these potentially deadly chemicals? Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, I have already indicated to the mem ber that we do a number of things in terms of trying to be sure that farmers follow the appropriate precautions to look after themselves, their families and anybody around them. It is an ongoing process, and we have stepped up that process in the last few years, particularly by putting together the video, Agriculture Chemicals in the 19 90s. Major, major progress has been made in the last 10 years to get farmers to understand that they are at risk in the use of these chemicals. The labelling precautions are there. It is an ongoing process.

We have stepped it up in the last few years. We are well ahead of the member. Sunday Shopping Consultations Mr. Jerry Storie {FIIn Flon): My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. Earlier today, the minister was quoted on a local radio station as suggesting that the opposition were holding up public consultation on the Sunday shopping legislation. Talk about revisionist history, Mr. Speaker.

My question to the minister is: Can he explain to Manitobans why, when second reading of Sunday shopping legislation was passed last December, in the intervening months there has been no attempt by the governmen t to consult with rural Manitobans, to consult with the chambers of commer ce in communities throughout this province on why this government is wrongheaded and why they are proceeding with Sunday shopping legislation? Hon. Eric Stefanson {Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, I guess this points out very clearly that the member for Flin Flon and members of his party do not unde rstand what a trial period is. The whole idea of the original bill was to have a four-month trial period, to get an opportunity for Manitobans to determ ine how Sunday shopping affected their communities or individual lives, to give the government an opportunity to assess it. We did introduce another piece of legislation modelled after Alberta and British Columbia and similar to Saskatchewan.

We welcome getting to public hearings as soon as the opposition parties are prepared to approve second reading and move it on to committee, Mr. Speaker. Public Hear ings-Rural Manitoba Mr. Jerry Storie {FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, once again, the chamber of com merce pointed thumbs down on this legislation. The chamber of commerce has said this is not in the interest of rural Manitoba.

My question to the minister is: Will he now announce in the House today-and he will receive the co-operation ofthe opposition in proceeding with this legislation-wh ich rural communities will have hearings on this Sunday shopping legislation? Will he announce that today so that we can co-operate ? Hon. Eric Stefanson {Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, the member for Rin Flon refe rs to a resolution passed this weekend at a Manitoba Chamber of Commerce annual meeting. I had an opportunity to have lunch today with the president of the Manitoba Chamber and the Winnipeg Chamber.

They indicated that it was an interesti ng discussion and a close vote. Only 15 chambers voted, the vote was eight to seven. So it shows, once again, the nature of the issue in terms of Manitobans having different views. We have said all along on this particular piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, that it will follow the same legislativ e process as every othe 'r piece of legislation. Once it rece ives second reading in this House, it will go to the traditional committee hearings that are held right here in this building and which each and every Manitoban can come in person or send in a written submission.

That opportunity is there for all Manitobans to do so. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, talk about the arrogance of government. The question to the minister is: Will he identify for rural Manitobans, for the Manitoba Chamber of Com mer ce, for the Union of Mani toba Municip alities, for MAU M, for the Canadian Federati on of Independent Grocers, which rural communities are going to be the site for hearings on this legislation which is going to undermine the economy in rural Manitoba? Which communities?

3001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 93 Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, the arrogance is clearly across the way. Here is a member who has been in this House for many years, and he knows legislative process and he knows what happens with legislation in this House. This piece of legislation will follow the same process as every other piece of legislation. As well, on the issue for municipalities that do decide to go to wide-open Sunday shopping, they have a municipal process here in Winnipeg and other parts of Manitoba which, again, the public of Manitoba will have an opportunity for input.

As our House leader has indicated, if they give second reading along with the Liberal Party, we will go to committee Wednesday of this week. * (1 400) Interdepartmental Crisis Committee Target Groups Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Family Services. I asked the minister last Tuesday with regard to some protocols that the departm ents are now using in co-ordinating information from one department to the other.

On Friday, the minister of Child and Family Services distributed four documents, three of which, quite frankly, pre-date the Reid inquest. The final document that was released refers to children between the ages of five and 11 , which does not mean that the Reid family would have qualified. Would the minister now today like to give us protocols that would have applied to a similar incident like the Reid family tragedy? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, last day, I pointed out to the member that the Reid inquest report by Judge No rton dealt wit h ad dressing diffi culties of co-ordination between the Child and Fa mily Services agencies and other social agencies and police authorities in dealing with a specific case. As a result of that, we have brought in a number of reforms which I indicated on the record last Friday. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, the document which the minister tabled in fact is new. It is one which is called a Referral Process to the Interdepartmental Crisis Resource Committee for Children Between Ages 5-1 1.

Are the me mbers of this House to assume that if there are adolescents, who are outside the ages of between five and 11 , they would not be referred to this Interdepartme ntal Crisis Resource Committee? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, that was one of four reports that I tabled for the member who was looking for information on interdepartmental co-ordination. That specific one deals with a target group of children between the ages of five and 11.

However, the other documents that I tabled, Guidelines on Identifying and Reporting a Child in Need of Protect ion, another document, Transition Planning Proces s-a nd the third one I would mention is the Provincial Advisory Committee on Child Abuse, which, as a matter of fact, today is me eting in regular session with staff from the Departm ent of Justice, the Department of Health, the Department of Education and the Department of Family Services. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, the document the minister tabled on Friday which is a referral process says: "Personnel from local school divisions, Child and Family Service agencies and regional me ntal health services presently collaborate to develop commun ity-based education/trea tment program­ ming for children with severe behavior adjustment disorders. Howev er, there are some cases where, because of the severity of the behavior, the complexities of the case and/or local fact ors, such collaborative planning at the local level reaches an impasse ... ." and that is when this crisis group goes into play.

Can the minister tell the House if that Crisis Resource Committee would in fact be put into place for those over the age of 11 ? Mr. Gllleshammer: This particular document deals with children from ages five to 11 , as the information indicates. There are other procedures which are used to deal with older children, where we have interdepartmental committees which do a case conference on specific cases. Health Care System Reform Centralization Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr.

Speaker, like so much else in health care ref orm, we are waiting for the message on high from the minister as to when services will be consolidated or centra lized at various health locations throughout the city of

May 17 , 199 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3002 Winnipeg. We have heard, via the rumour mill and from others, that orthopedics will be- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, meetings have been held in the health ser vices fiel d about the consolidation and the placing of orthopedics at Victoria Hospital and ophthalmology at the Seven Oaks centre. What plans has the minister made for input from the public, health care prof essionals and caregivers in the field, prior to the implementation of those plans? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Well, Mr.

Speaker, at least my honourable friend, through Freudian slip, has confirmed the source of his resear ch-rumour mills. Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate to my honourable friend, that in part or in whole, possibly some of the discussions that he is referring to in terms of orthopedics, ophthalmology, urology and a number of other areas, were subject of presentations by the physicians, in most cases, who are heading the study commit tees around those programs in surgery.

They presented their interim findings to a retreat at which we had members of all of the urban hospitals, major urban hospital facilities, the Urban Hospital Counc il, as well as a numb er of profe ssional groups that were there. The purpose, Sir, of sharing those pieces of investigation to date with that wide a group of Manitobans, was to do exactly as my honourable friend wants, to seek input and feedback. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, what plans has the minister made for seeking input from the public prior to the implementation of those particular decisions? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, when one attempts to make planning changes throughout the system and when one engages the advice of expert s who are part of the Manitoba health care community, one would assume that they are going to make reco mmendations to government which will have integrity in terms of the continued ability to deliver high quality programs to maintain the health status of Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker, any decision that is made by myself and announced by government as a result of that kind of across a wide spectrum of input, I believe, will find signif icant favour for the health care system of Manitoba providing services to one million Manitobans. The Province of Manitoba Dominion Bond Rating Mr. Bob Rose (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that this question has not been asked before today, but I noticed over the weekend an

article in the paper indicating that the Dominion Bond Rating Service has maintained Manitoba's credit rating at its previous level. pnterjection] I know the question must have slipped your mind. I appreciate the opportunity to get it in. Can the Minister of Rnance explain to the House, the reasons for the Dominion Bond Rating Service maintaining Manitoba at its present credit level rating? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I am delighted that this question has come forward , and I am terribly disappointed that my good friend the member for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans) was not the author of the question. The Dominion Bond Rating Service stated in a ringing end orse men t of the actions of this government that Manitoba stands out as only one of two provinces in Canada that is fiscally responsible in its actions. It has indicated that our province has em phasiz ed exp endit ure contr ol, wha t the opposition of course in strong chorus has been against, that has not initiated major tax increases for the last five years. Again, the mem bers opposite have voted against that. It has changed.

Our province has changed from being one of the highest taxed provinces down to mid-range. lndeed, the midterm plan which we have laid before Manitobans and they so strongly supp ort, is what ha s led of course to this reaffi rmation of our rating. So, Mr. Speaker, we are delighted to be able to present this information. Indeed, it is an outside report on the fiscal standing of the province and the way we conduct our fiscal matters. I know the Leade r of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) wants us to abandon the path, and he wants us, of course, to put at risk our real security, to spend more, to borrow more, and ultimately to tax more than is found wanting. That is the wrong solution. We are on the proper course.

3003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 17 , 19 93 Mr. Rose: My supplemen tary question to the Minister of Finance, I am sure if we waited till Friday morning, we might get- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member this is not a time for debate. Mr. Rose: My question to the honourable Minister of Finance: What exactly is the difference betwee n an A rating and an A-minus rating in terms of actual dollars on our provincial debt? Mr. Manness: Mr. Sp eaker, when you are downgraded to the next rank, usually you are talking as much one-eighth of 1 percent, or roughly 15 basis points.

That tends to be-and of course when you are talking about a borrowing program, and in our place in the province of Manitoba, between $1 billion and $2 billion, and you borrow that amount of money over a period of 1 0 years, you are talking about tens of millions of dollars. By the way, Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what my colleague the Minister of Finance in Ontario, Mr.

Laughren, is having to deal with right now as he is putting the final touches to his budget as he brings it down Wednesday, because the whole markets are tuned in to that Ontario budget, and there is no doubt that if their deficit comes in beyond $1 0 billion, there is going to be a significant downgrade in the ability of all of us to borrow. * (1 41 0) Manitoba Builder Bonds Public Confidence Mr.

Bob Rose (Turtle Mountain ) : My final supplementary question to the minister: Given the fact that the government bonds are going on sale, will this report give added confidence to Manitoba to buy our new governm ent bond issue? Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Well, Mr. Speaker, over the weekend I had an opportunity to talk to many Manitobans with respect to Builder Bonds, and certainly there is a growing interest . Naturally, every investor wants to know ultimately what the coupon value is.

I will be making that announcement next week some time, and I will price them I think very fav ourably.! am sure Manitobans, who have such a strong loyalty to this province, will respond, and it will be a successful issue. Garrison Diversion Project Government PosiUon Mr. Oscar lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, the Garrison project has long been opposed by environme ntalists, farm ers, scie nt ists , municipalities, along with many others.

Due to the threat that it poses to o ur water system here in Manitoba, despite the defeat of the project in the early 198 0s, the proponents of this project continue to try to find new ways to bring it back. My que stion is for the Minister of Natural Resources. Can the Minister of Natural Resources tell the House whether his government holds the same position today as Manitoba has had for over a decade on this project , and that this project is simply not in the interests of Manitoba? Hon. Ha rry Enns (Mi ni ster of Na tural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, I can cert ainly give the honourable member, and indeed all Manitobans, the assurance that the position of Manitoba is firm and unchanged. Quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, we ought to remind ourselves that it was largely our representation that brought about significant reform ulation of the project, which was then and only then agreeable to us, which prevented any inner-basin transf er. I am aware that the State of North Dakota keeps trying to deviate from that course of action, but we are maintaining a watchin g brief in Washington.

We are advised that it is highly unlikely for the State of North Dakota to receive any serious consideration by the federal govern men t for some of their expansion plans, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Lathlln: Mr. Speake r, I would like to ask the same minister, has he been in contact and how is he maintaining contact with the off icials in North Dakota to maintain Manitoba's position? Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, one of the senior people in my department , Mr. Clarkson, who served in the same capacity with the previous New Democratic Party administration has that on his desk at all times.

We are inform ed, indee d we are invited, we are participants whenever the re are further discussions that are very often sponsored by the Garrison Conservancy District. We are observers at these me etings, and we have a conti nual flow of informati on coming across our desk with respect to the Garrison.

May 17 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3004 Agricultural Chemical Transfers Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, my final question is to the same minister: Does the minister have any concerns over the likelihood of farm pesticides from the States ending up in our wate rs? Has he stated those concerns to the authorities in the State s? Perhaps I could also ask him to table any correspondence that he may have had with the authorities in the States. Hon. Har ry Enns (Min ister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, I have no difficulty in bringing the honourable member up to date with some particular correspondence having to do with the overall project and the kind of information that comes to us from time to time. On the question of agricultural herbicide pollution, that is an issue that, of course, is facing all of us, not just in the States. It is an issue that, for instance, prevents us from recharging underground aquifers here in Manitoba.

Because of that pote ntial danger, we certainly made that as one of the principal reasons for our concern about inner -basin trans fe rs, tha t significantly large irrigated acreage that could be irrigated from this project and the Hudson Bay basin ought not to impact on our waters and stre ams. That, Mr. Speaker, remains constant, and our concern remains constantly voiced in Washington. Labour Force Development Agree ment Expiry Date Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

In March of this year the government signed the Canada-Man itoba Labour Force Development Agr eem ent after mor e than three years of unaccountable delay. From now until Septem ber, a committee will decide on management procedures and eventually, in September '93, the federal· provincial co-ordination of our education and training system may begin. Will the minister now confirm that this agreement will expire in March '94 and that three and a half years of government delays have given us a planning horizon of six months for one of the most crucial issues facing Manitobans? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): As wit h agre emen ts with governmen ts across Canada, there is an expiry date in 19 94. Howeve r, we expect to be well underway in terms of our planning process and our work with Manitobans to make sure Manitoba has a very successful program. Employment Retraining Programs Government Role Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, will the minister explain why her governme nt has cut New Careers, Human Resources Opportunity Centres in Dauphin and Selkirk, Student Social Allowances Program, when under

Section 501 of that Labour Force Developmen t Agreement, Manitoba has agreed that government emphasis, the government role should be conce ntrated on tr aining the unemployed? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, again, we do still provide cert ainly funding in the areas of New Careers and also funding in the ACCESS area.

I have also written to the federal gove rnment regarding their commitment in the area of ACCESS programming, which we would like to see that they would be able to rei nstate rather than simple funding directly to bands and providing no funding for ACCESS programs. Labour Force Development Strategy Tabling Request Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Could the minister tell us when she intends to table the governmen t's Labour Force Development Strategy, or has it fallen into the same bottom less pit that the urban aboriginal strategy has? • Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, as I have said in this House before , we are working very carefu lly on our labour force strategy. We recognize that it is a strate gy which not only involves the Departm ent of Education and Training, but also it is important to involve other areas of government. I will be happy to talk further about that with the member during the Estimates process. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if there is a willingness to waive private members' hour.

3005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 93 Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? Is it agreed? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No? Okay, leave is denied. • (1 420) Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Tr aining; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture. • (1 450) COMMmEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afte rnoon, this secti on of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will re sume consideration of the Estimates of the Departmen t of Education and Training. When the comm ittee last sat it had been considering item 1. Administration and Finance (

c) Planning and Policy Development (1 ) Salaries on page 34 of the Estimates book. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): When we were last together I said that I would table for the members a document, Parents and Schools: Partners in Education, which was produced by the Student Support branch of our department. I would like to table those documents now. Mr. John Plohman (Dau phin): Mr. Deput y Chairperson, I appreciate the minister's provision of that informa tion . We woul d like to have an opportunity to review that before raising concerns about it.

I want to ask the ministe r today about the issue of students dem onstrations at this particular time, and the role that the minister sees for herself in dealing with this issue. As the minister knows, the 2 percent cutback in funding that she announced in February was a decision of her governmen t, along with the capping of the ability of school divisions to raise money locally to offset the reduction or to incr ease programming, whatever the school division felt was necessary.

Having those decision-making abilities curtailed by Bill 16 , and then combining that with certainly the great deal of frustration that is being felt in the education community, particularly by the educators themselves, Bill 22- which, in some cases, as I understand it in a letter that I received from a teacher at Mountain School Division, is going to result in the loss of eight days of in-service, pr ofe ssi onal deve lopmen t, adminis trati on, whatever, and eight days of pay amounting to a considerable salary cut for those teachers; other divisions will have var ying de gr ees of implementation-has created essentially a crisis in many schools and certainly one that is seen by students as being unaccepta ble.

I know the Speaker is particularly concerned about the Mountain School Division because it happens to be in his area, and he would want to have the teachers who wrote the letters about those concerns to have those concerns raised with the minister here. So I want to ask the mini ster about the issues associated with the student protest that is going on at the present time, to ask what position she is taking on them, and what role that she sees herself and her government playing in that issue . Mrs.

Vodrey: As I have said from the beginning, we do not condone students being out of school, and we also, however, I would re mind the member, had very difficult decisions to make this year. The decisions that we made were made for the benefit of Manitobans. They were made across depart­ ments of governmen t. They were not targeted specifically at Education. If the member does look across government, he will see that there is, in each area, a place where Manitobans will be doing some

part in terms of reducing our debt and also helping to control our spending and thereby reducing the deficit. In order to do that, again, we had to make very difficult decisions, but they were decisions which, I will remind him, needed to be made. They needed

May 17 , 199 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 3006 to be made to make sure that people who are students now will have the opportunity to have jobs and will have a future to look forward to in Manitoba. H we did not, then I could tell him that if we did not control our spending we could then look forward to an ever-spiralling debt which would be to the de tri me nt of Ma nito bans now, and future Manitobans. So, difficult decisions, but we have asked Education to do their part as we have asked many, many other Manitobans to also do their share. Mr.

Plohman: The minister has gone back into the difficult decisions. We know that the government has made many wrong decisions, howeve r difficult they might have been. When the minister talks about spiralling debt she has to rememb er that it is her government, led by this Premier (Mr. Filmon), who made the decision to leave hundreds of millions of dollars on the table in taxation cuts to high-income earners and in corporate taxes, reductions there, thereby removing reve nue from the Mi nis ter of Finance (Mr.

Manness), which would have allowed for greater flexibility in provision of services such as education and health care and others. That was a conscious decision that this minister's government made that this minister was a part of, at least in caucus, in making at that particular time. Those cuts have contributed to the difficult y in meeting the costs and responsibilities of the provincial government. From that point of view, I think the minister should not play up the argument about the difficult decisions and having to make these cuts in order to protect services, because in fact it is a contradiction in terms.

The services are being cut and the quality of educati on is being affe cted. The minister said that the quality of education would not be affected by her decisions. She indicated, when she announced the education spending cut of 2 percent across the board-as I said earlier, which manifested itself in cuts much higher than 2 percent in many school divisions. With no sensitivity for particular concerns or problems that certain school divisions might have, she said at that particular time that the quality of education would not be impacted in a negative way.

This is going to be done through administrative cuts and through shortening the workweek, as it was called I believe at that time, various measures that would not impact on the quality of education. We found that is not the case.

As a result of the squeeze that was put on school divisions in a consci ous way, in a deliber ate way by this governmen t, first to cut the funding by 2 percent or more in school divisions across the province and then to put in Bill16 , which caps the ability of school divisions to raise funds from alternative sources, the quality of education is suffe ring and is bei ng impacted upon. * (1 500) Added to that, of course, is Bill 22, which has created a great deal of frustrati on and a feeling of lack of confidence by the government in the education system and in the people that are involved directly in providing the services.

That, of course, is the educators themselves. When you add all of those measures toget her, there is no doubt that the minister has to feel directly responsible for what is happening at the present time, the unrest and concern manifested in terms of dem onstrations by students and also decisions being made by teachers. I think the ministe r cannot hide from those results in the streets, those kinds of things that are being manifested daily as a result of this min ister's decisions. She has to take responsibility for them, and that is why I raise it in that context at this particular time.

If the minister says it was to keep property taxes down, I remind her that over the last number of years, she and her governmen t and her Premier (Mr. Filmon) have increased property taxes as a result of the offload ing, in many different areas, on local municipalities. Perhaps the frustration at hearing municipal governmen ts, school boards and other local officials chastising the government for offloadi ng finally led to this political decision to cap the ability of school divisions to raise money locally. That is what happened this particular year, but it was not a concern about property taxes, Mr. Premier.

It was clear that this government is not concerned about property taxes, or why would they add $75 to every householder in the province at the same time? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Orde r, please. Could I ask the honourable member to put his question through the Chair and not directly to any member in the committee. Mr. Plohman: Certainly. So I want to point that out to the minister, that the $75 increase and the $250 minimum for many other

3007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 17 , 19 93 property taxpayers in this province makes a sham of anything the government has stated about being concerned about increasing property taxes at the local level.

When you combine that with the last number of years of offloa ding, where we had a 14 percent increase in the public education system during the same time that inflation was 18 percent, then you see there was an offloa ding taking place over that period of time, a pressure on the local school divisions to raise money locally to offset the decrease in funding, the inadequate funding by the provincial government over that time.

I do not blame teachers, school divisions and parents for being cynical about this governmen t's approach when they consider that over that same period of time, private schools were receiving increases at about 1 0 times the rate in percentage terms than the public school system was receiving over that five-year period. Many people look at that as a lack of commitment for the public school system, even though the Premier (Mr. Rlmon), Mr. Deputy Chairperson, said during election campaigns and after that, that he would be funding education at inflation at least.

Even though he said education is the key to our future, even though the minister had said that education was a top priority, we have seen this kind of Jack of commitment over those years.

Now, this year, comes the crunch, when we see a major decrease in funding for public education with no consideration about the impact on certain school divisions which have no other alternative but to cut programming in order to meet the demands being placed on them by the province, because they do not have reserves or because they do not have the wealth that allowed them to offer the kind of quality of education that was present in other school divisions, so there was a great disparity from division to division. That has not been considered in this across-the-board, broad-brush approach by this government.

So I think the minister cannot just brush aside and say, well, difficult decisions had to be made. She has to look at the dem onstrations that are taking place at the present time in this province, the concerns being expressed, and then decide on a course of action to deal with that. I do not think she is making a11y attempt to deal with those concerns at the present tim9.

I would like to know if the minister has been asked to meet with student leaders on the concerns they have about cutbacks in services to them, a possible loss of sports programs, band programs or whatever extracurricular programs teachers may have been offering. Has she been asked to meet, and has she agreed to meet with the students to discuss these concerns and her role, her Premier's role, her governmen t's role, in precipitating the potential loss in these services? I just want to preface the answering of that question by the minister with the state ment that we hope it does not come to that.

We do not like to see this chaos in education. We do not like to see demo nstrations. We would rather things were going smoothly, but this minister has created to a large degree, her and her government, the kind of crisis and the lack of confidence in this government in terms of their educati on policy. She has to feel responsible. I want to ask the minister then to answer the question about whether she is meeting with these students. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er) : Mr. Depu ty Chairperson, I am interested to hear the comments of the memb er for Dauphin.

I am interes ted because, of course, I have been in this Legislature for all of his time in government, and I am familiar with what his priorities and his actions were when he was in government.

When he talks about why we are in the circumstances we are in this province, he was centrally involved as a member of government, in fact, the minister who made decisions that have put this provi nce into the di ffi cult fina ncial circumstances that it is by virtue of, for instance, building a bridge from nowhere to nowhere at a cost of $28 million, a bridge that had no roads leading up to it on either side but was sent out there in glorious suspension as though it were from a skyhook because it was in the midst of his Premier's constituency, and it was a glorious project for the building up of the re-election of that government.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that $27 million could well have been used to provide for &II sorts of funding in education-{interjection] Twenty-seven or 2� An Honourable Member: It was 19 . Mr. Almon: Well, it was closer to 27 or 28, Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, with all of their costs put in.

May 17 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3008 In addition to that, of course, this member may want to correct me as to whether or not it was $28 million that was spilled on the sands of Saudi Arabia on the Manitoba Telephone Syste m's fiasco, the MTX aff air, which was a great joy to the New Democrats in the 19 80s. This province could well have used that $27 million or $28 million to spend for education and many other vital services, but we do not have the luxury of that.

We could have used a lot of the funds that the memb er opposite used to build roads in his constituency in Dauphin to his cottage and other things, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that might have come in handy, so that we could have had it for the children in the schools of his area. Unfortunate ly, we do not have that luxury because the member opposite squandered the money in those kinds of very, very inappropriate choices that he made. Those were his priorities. They are not our prioriti es.

They are not the priorities of any Manitobans, and all Manitobans rightfu lly rejected New Democrats because they made those priority decisions, which is why he is sitting in opposition. [interjection] No, the circle has not come at all. In fact , we are a long ways away from that. Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, we will see soon enough just exactly what people think of New Dem ocratic priorities versus Conser vative priorities.

The fact of the matter is, of course, I also have difficulty with his assertion that the quality of education is somehow totally intertwined with the amount of money that we pay to the teachers in the education syste m. Now, he being a teacher, of course, he has that warped opinion. [inte�ection) Well, we see the resu lts where the money that we pay, obviously, does not give us any assurance of quality. He is the best example of that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. We know that he comes here with a warped viewpoint that suggests all you need to do to improve education is pay the teachers more.

We have teachers in our province who, on average, are the third or fourth highest paid in the country, and that is not doing anything to en sure quality of education in our schools. * (1 51 0) So the fact of the matter is that the respons ibility for quality of education rests with those people who are given that responsibility within our school divisions and in our schools.

If they would choose to withdraw services in a variety of different ways as their means of improving the quality of education, then I do not think that they see the point, but, of course, they are being encou raged, they are being fomented by New Dem ocrats who want to have this kind of unrest, who go out there with their organizers in the field- Mr. Plohman: The Conservative teachers are not very happy either. I do not know if they are Conservative anymore. Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the member opposite is not making any sense as he usually does not, but he will have his chance to speak later .I know this is hurting him to hear the truth , but I will carry on. He goes out there and foments, along with his New Democratic colleagues, the unrest in schools and among students and all of those things, instead of trying to work co-operatively, as people in every province are across this country, to try to deal with difficult circumstances that are facing this nation and every province.

You have the situation in Saskatchewan next door where for two straight years they have reduced the funding to their public schools, and the fact is, as difficult as that is to deal with, the people there will attempt as best as they can to deal with it because they do not have irresponsible people in opposition, like the memb er for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman), who are out there trying to do the negative thing, trying to build up more deficits, trying to build up higher taxes so t hat the young people who are in the school system today will have to go out and pay higher taxes and pay for th' deficit that is being built up today. We cannot continue to live beyond our means. That is a fact of life. It is not a Conser vative fact of life; it is a fact of life that has been accepted by New Democrats in Saskatchewan, in Ontario; by Liberals in Newf oundland, in New Brunswick-in all of those areas. The fact is- Mr.

Plohman: Newfoundla nd's deficit is $1 00 million higher than yours is. Mr. Fllmon: We can talk about the deficit, but we have had the Dominion Bond Rating Service say that we have been one of the two most fiscally responsible provinces in all of Canada for the last five years, and they can rea d the numbers better than the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman).lnfact, when they read them, they understand them, Mr.

3009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 93 De put y Chair per son, and they arrived at conclusions that suggest that we are doing very, very well, thank you. pnte�ection) Indeed, all he has to do is read the front page of Saturday's paper to know that we are considered to be the most fiscally responsible province in the entire country. That is why, when we do that, we are not doing it because we do not want to pay more money into our school system. We are doing it because we cannot afford to.

No province in this country can, and if you look across the country, it does not matte r who is in governmen t-L iberal, New Dem ocrat, or Conservative-they look at the same in formation and arrive at the same conclusions.

It is only the member for Dauphin, who has a warped sense of what is happening in the world or perhaps who cannot see beyond the boundaries of his own little offi ce in this Legislature, that does not understand that there is a reality being faced by people whether they are in the private sector, whether they are in the public sector, whether they are New Democrats or Liberals or Conservatives, that there is a reality out there that must be fac ed.

The reality is that you cannot keep giving a bigger and bigger portion of the provincial pie to any one group in society without getting to the point where society can no longer pay for it and the rest of society suffers. They cannot pay their bills; they do not have enough money to pay their taxes and do the other things. So, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, throughout this exercise, we have taken a responsible approach, a responsible approach that has been confirmed by the Dominion Bond Rating Service, a responsible approach I think that has been recognized by most Manitobans by keeping all of our major tax rates in this province down, that is the personal income tax, the corporate income tax, the payroll tax which has been removed off 70 percent of the businesses who had been paying it when we took of fice, and, of course, the sales tax that has been maintained at 7 percent, now the second lowest level of any province in Canada.

The reason we are able to do that is because we are making difficult choices. We are not doing what the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) would do, and that is, to just spend more money, tax more money, run up the deficit, and run our young people into a burden where they cannot afford to live in this province and then will have to move out of this province. That-[interjection] Absolutely not, absolutely not. An Honourable Member: They are leaving. Mr. Fllmon: As a matter of fact, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, they are not.

Of course, net interprovincial out-migration has reduced by a third since it reached its peak in 19 89. People now know that this province Is doing the right things and that they can ret ain their citizenship here and their residency here because we have (

a) a good school syste m which will get better as we have people recognize the reality that we have to live within our means. So I think it is absolutely foolish and, of course, it is the narro w-m indedness of the member for Dauphin who would be so bold as to suggest that only if you pay teachers more will you improve the quality of education in this province. That does not make sense to any objective observer, and it certainly does not make sense to those people who view us from an objective distance. The mem ber for Dauphin (Mr.

Piohman) can hold to that viewpoint and as he does hold to that viewpoint, he will ensure that New Democrats will not be re-elected for a long, long time in this province. Mr. Plohman: It is interes ting to hear the Premier (Mr. Filmon) talk about keeping the deficit down. I think when he looks at his deficit and what has happened this past year and takes the true figures which were provided by the member for Rossmere before he resig ned-that $862 million- he will clearly know that his policies have failed over the last five years because we have the highest deficit.

It is a shame, it is an em barrassment to any government, certainly any finance minister and all of the Legislature, to have a government that has presided over that kind of massive deficit at the same time as cutting services. It has not worked. Clearly, the minister and the Premier have to feel responsibility for what is happening with the unrest that is out there in educati on, the lack of confidence. He likes to throw allegations of wanting to pay more without thinking about some of the other options that are there. It is not a question of paying more.

It is a question of what he is doing and this Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey)-this Premier (Mr. Film on) when I say "he" -in cutting back salaries by 4 percent or more,

May 17 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 30 10 not talking about paying more, and doing it in an autocratic fashion without negotiation. If he looks at what he has done in this province, negotiate a 3 percent and then claw it back from the civil service and the public sector, you find out how incons istent and what kind of inabi lity this government has to manage. On the one hand, within a few months of making decisions, coming to agreement, they do not honour that agreement. They claw it back.

There is no way that anyone can have any confidence in this Premier or this minister to stick by their word or even stick by their signed agreements. There is absolutely no confi dence in this minister or this Premier in that regard. I mean, let us look at this thing. They go with a 3 percent increase and then they claw it back for one year. It is tem porary. The base has been increased by 3 percent. In Saskatchewa n, they negotiate a zero, zero, three.

The base stays smaller over that time and the Premier may not understand that, but that means savings over a longer period of time forever as a result of the smaller salary base. It is done through negotiation, not through confronta tion. That is where the failure of this minister, this Premier (Mr. Filmon) and this Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) lies. They cannot under stand how to do it. * (1 520) They do not have the confi dence of the people in that regard, and that is why it has happened that way.

It might be nice to throw out some red herrings about some particular examples and previous governments, but that is not going to deal with the concerns now-red herrings when he mentions misinformation in front of this House, by listening to his Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard) and the inappropriate, inaccurate figures. If your Minister of Health, Mr. Premier and Mr. Deputy Chairper son, persists in being out by 50 percent on his Estimates in spending in Health then I think you have got a real problem here. He deals with billions of dollars.

That is a tremendous amount to be in error, and to have this Premier (Mr. Filmon) sit here and believe and make out to have any credibility in his words when he gives state me nts that are so much in error I think just throws anything he says into disrepute. I hope that the public, and I know they are, are seeing this ministe r, this Premier, for what he is in terms of what is being said, because you cannot have confidence in what is spoken. They will say anything and hope that people will believe it. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I want to just get back to the issue here.

The Premier has clearly implied in his state ments that teachers were being paid too much, and they are targeted by this government along with civil servants and others. That is the implication that I read . Now the Premier will have an opportunity to- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable first minister, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Fllmon: I made no such state men t or implication, and I want the member for Dauphin to be disabused of that thought so that he can be absolutely certain not to repea t a falseh ood anywhere else in this province. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.

The honourable First Minister did not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Plohman: I have to agree, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that it is, in your ruling, a dispute over the facts. However, I said it was implied, and I think it is clear. I say it again, that I read into what he said that teachers were being paid too much, and I believe others would, too, in listening to this. That is why they were target ed, and the minister has said she was not target ing teachers. The Premier has said that the only way that he can get costs down, one of the major ways , is if teachers are paid less.

That is really what he is saying to this House, to this committee. So I have towonder whetherlhe minister has any credibility in her statemen ts that teachers were not targeted as part of the educati on cutbacks, and a direct target by this minister. But let us get back to the issue of what is happening in the public school system today. We see a lot of decisions being made or votes being taken by educators that in fact they will withdraw voluntary services, whic h are a very important part of the quality of education. I think the minister would agree with that.

As a result, students are taking the position that they are going to protest because they do not want to see a loss in their sports programs and in their many other programs that are carried on and supported by teachers after hours, and so they are afr aid about the quality of education that they are going to receive. They are desper ately

301 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 93 concerned that they are not going to have their educational experiences enriched by these many activities, and I am concerned about that, too. I hope the minister is, and I simply ask her whether in fact she is going to take any action to resolve this issue, and if so what action is she prepared to take? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we see the lack of understanding of the member for Dauphin when he says that we do not have to deal with the salary costs of teachers or-[i nte�ection] Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I listened to the member opposite without interrupting him. If he wants to use his bully-boy tactics to try and shout somebody down, we can find him a union beer hall in order to do that. Here, I think he should abide by the rules. I know he has been here over 10 years. He still does not understand the rules, but I think he should abide by the rules, and I would give him the courtesy of listening to him. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Could I ask the honourable members to try and keep the decorum down to at least a happy medium.

I have allowed a little bit of leeway here, but if I have to, I will have to start bringing in the rules a little bit more. The honourable First Minister, to continue. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, here we have a person who has been in government for over a decade and does not understand what he is talking about when he says that we can control the costs of education without dealing with salary costs. Salary costs are more than 70 percent of the costs of education. How are we going to control the costs if we do not deal with salary costs? It does not make sense.

Mind you, the member for Dauphin rarely does make sense. I would like to know from the member for Dauphin then, if he is so concerned about the services to the students and the children of this province, whether he agrees with the withdrawal of services by the teachers? Is this the way to help the students out, by withdrawing your services and not providing them with these extracurr icular activities that he says are so vital and enriching to the student experience in Manitoba? Does he agree with the decision that teachers are making? Is he one of the ones who is encouraging it?

Is he one of the ones who is fully supportive and, in fact, fomenting this kind of decision? Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chair person, it is interesti ng to hear the Premier talk about fomenting when he has to look at what actions he has taken as Premier and what actions his minister and previous Ministers of Education have taken that have resulted in this total lack of confidence in this government. There is no confidence that there is a real partnership. pnte�ection] Now, the Premier, if he wants to resign and put me into the position of minister, naturally I will have to answer the questions.

Now we have a Premier who will not answer the questions either. As a matter of fact, he is trying to answer the questions for his Minister of Education (M rs. Vodrey). Has he no confidence in the Mi nis ter of Educa tion? [interjection] Both of those. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Could I remind the honourable members that we are dealing with (

c) Planning and Policy Development (1 ) Salaries $386,800. The honourable member for Dauphin, to continue. Mr. Plohman: I think it is highly inappropriate for the Premier to attempt to answer questions for his Minister of Education. We have a Minister of Education whom he seems to have no confidence in. Let me just continue on this issue of what chaos and lack of confidence has developed as a result of this governme nt's decisions, as a result of five years of underfunding of the public education system while the private school system received 1 0 times as much percentage-wise over that same period of time.

The public of Manitoba and the education profession, the education community, is losing confidence over that period of time, progressively, in this government's actions. While they say they are not going to raise taxation, they have increased property taxes by a significant amount, varying percentages, certainly a standard amount of $75 across this province and in many cases, a $250 increase of minimum tax to many property owners in this province. They see what seems to them an obvious hypocrisy in ap pro ach, and they can only come to one conclusion, that there is no commitment to the public education system.

There is no commitment to principle with regard to property taxes. They cannot believe that this government is really attemp ting to keep property taxes down, as they are saying that they have been attempting to do, because they have offloaded onto the local taxpayers over the last number of months.

May 17 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 301 2 At the same time, they have seen Bill 70 where there has been an imposition of zero percent for civil servants in this province. They see a negotiation then later that gives them 3 percent, and then see it clawed back in the civil service. They have observed the government waffle on funding this year for education by not providing any respect for the negotiation process for collective bargaining. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) seems to have no underst anding of any of those principles. He does not know how to negotiate .

That is why I say that there is a tremendous lack of confidence in the education community. It is a direct result of this Premier and his dire cting of his Minis ter of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) and his government. That is why we are seeing the situation that exists. I have no doubt, as regrettable as it is, it is going to get worse before it gets better, unless this Premier starts acting responsibly, and his minister, and start giving some credibility to their statemen ts that they consult, that they respect a part nership.

The Minister of Education uses the term all the time. * (1 530) I would really like to hear from the Ministe r of Education as to whether she is going to take any specific action to start rest oring the confidence that has now been undermined and effectiv ely has been lost by this governmen t. How is she going to restore confidence so that the students in this province, the teachers in this province, the school boards, the parents, the public will have confidence that this minister is committed to the public education system and this Premier is comm itted to the public education system in the province?

Right now we can look at the decision making and come to only one conclusion. There is no respect for negotiation. There is no respect for agreements. There is no respect f or what is happening in the public school system and the quality of education that is being delivered . That is the message that is going out there daily fr om this government. I ask the minister what action she will take to restore confidence. Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I just want to make the record abundantly clear that I have every respect for the Minister of Education and the tremendous ability that she is showing. ln fact, every day she runs circles around the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) as she responds to his juvenile and rheto rically flagrant comme nts in a calm, reasoned and knowledgeable manner and makes a fool of him, which he deserves to be of course. The fact of the matte r is, he does not under stand anything that is going on.

He does not understand that it is absolutely essential that somebody has the courage in this province to make the decisions that are required to be made . You cannot just, from the luxury of being in opposition, be irresponsible day afte r day and just say, spend more, spend more, spend more, spend more and do not cut here, do not cut there, do not cut anywhere, because we would not do it if we were in government. The reality is that we have plenty of examples of New Democrats in offi ce. We know exactly what they do.

They can begin as they do on a tem porary basis, and my colleague in Ontario, the New Democratic Premier found that in being in office in a space of just three years increased the deficit from $35 billion to $68 billion and then found that the reality of the situation came down heavily upon Ontario in terms oftheir credit rating, in terms oftheir ability to borrow , in terms of their ability to manage, and they have to come forward with a plan to get that deficit down. They are looking to cut $9 billion worth of government services in this budget exercise that they are currently engaged in. That is reality.

That is not some fairyland that is in the mind of the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). That is reality. My colleague Mr. Rae, I think, has the courage and the commitment to be able to do the responsible thing, even though it means that he is in a pitched battle with the unions. Whether they be health care unions, whether they be teaching unions, whether they be any other union, civil service unions, he is taking a responsible approach because he knows and under stands the reality of what he is faci ng.

But, of course, reality never ever enters the mind of the member for Dauphin, and that is why I say he looks foolish. And the Minister of Education makes him look foolish every day because he does not speak from any base of know ledge , reason or under standing. He simply speaks with all of this rhetorical flourish and all of this mindless kind of drivel about: Just give them more money. Of course, in addition to lacking any intellect on the subject, he lacks the courage to be able to say publicly whether or not he agrees with the teachers with dr awing ser vice s . He gives us these nonanswers here.

He does not say whether he

301 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 93 agrees with them withdra wing services. Is that the way the children and the students of this province should be helped? No. We do not have any courage whatsoever in the member for Dauphin. He just walks away from here, you know, with his hands in his pockets and never gives us any stra ight answers. Well, H that is what we are getting- Mr. Plohman: . . . giving the answers here. What are we getting from you? Mr. Almon: Well, let us have some guts. If you really think that you have a job to do here and that you are committed to it, let us have some guts.

That is what I would like to see, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Mrs. Vodrey: I w ould just like to add some comme nts as well to what our Premier (Mr. Filmon) has said, and I would like to tell the member again that teachers have not been targeted in this process and in this budget.

I would ask him simply to look at the position of other Manitobans, and as I have said before in terms of the teachers, they may also want to look at the parents of the students that they are now working with, because many of those parents of students are people who have also now been trying to share and been asked to share in the economic recovery of Manitoba. But many of those parents have also been in a position where they have taken reductions in their salaries, and others have experienced other kinds of reductions.

So I do not think any one of us has very far to look when we look at what is happening around us, and then to suggest that only one group has been requir ed to make these changes is absolutely wron g. It is rid iculous. That there are many Manitobans who have been asked to take either-in some cases, it has been a reduction. In the case of Bill 22 we are asking for a workweek reduction so that we can get the spending under control.

I wonder when the member is going to get his story straight with the rest of his caucus because I point to Hansard and the Budget Debate 19 89 where his Leader said: • ... if there is any document the Government wants us to sign to indicate our support for getting the tax relief for families, if that would ... in any way, we believe that the bigger issue is the break to families, .. .

" There was a concern expressed by his Leader in terms of protecting Manitobans from higher taxes, and we have, in the case of Bill 16 , said that it is important for us to not look first at a taxation, but for us to look at controlling our spending and to spend very wisely. The me mber also speaks about funding to independent schools. I would also like to point out what a former Minister of Education from his party said: I have said publicly that I am a supporter of the public school syste m, but I recognize that we have an historical and a traditional obligation and a responsibility to independent schools.

So it seems, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that the memb er very often does not seem to really understand what has also been spoken about and taken as a position by his party. Then, I, too, would like to ask the member for Dauphin, does he agree with the decision of the teachers? Mr. Plohman: It is interesting how we have the Minister of Education and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) asking me questions, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I find that rather ironic. They want to be in opposition so badly, and I hope we will be able to oblige in the very near Mure.

Let us look at some of the approaches by this government They like to characte rize criticism of their decisions as spend more, spend more, spend more. What we have to do is look at how this government approaches it. I can respond to spend more , spend mor e, spend more , by saying negotiate, negotiate , negotiate . What they have done is failed miserably to take into consideration the partnership I talked about. There are many ways to increase efficiencies in the system.

This government has failed over the last number of years to deal with the maximum use of technology that could be possible, the boundary review that they have shelved, the regional delivery of services that could be done. There are many ways to achieve efficie ncies. What we have seen instead is a failure to deal with those and, as a result, and as a result of the failed economic policies, this government has gone from a plus $55 million to a record minus $862 million over the last five years, a $55-million surplus in 19 88 when they took over governmen t to a minus $862 million at the present time.

That is $920-million turnaround, almost a billion dollars. They should not be lecturing anyone about deficits, surely. Look at that. Now, we are not saying that it is just a matter of giving more money. What has to be done is an

May 17 , 19 93 · LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 301 4 approach taken that ensures that the confidence of all of those in the education system is respected and maintained. I almost find it laughable-if it was not so serious, I would-when the Minister of Education talks about a break for families and she quotes my Leader as saying that we need a break for families and then characterizes the budget decisions by this government as a break for families. They have just foisted a $400 increase In taxes on each family in this province. Point of Order Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Depu ty Chairperson, just to remind the member that I was referring to the effect of 811116 . Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable minister did not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Plohman: I will let the mi ni ste r try to characterize it any way she would like. The fact that she said it- Mr. Deputy Chairperson : Order, please. Could I remind the honourable members that we are dealing with (

c) Planning and Policy Development, Salaries. I would like to try and move along with the departm ent according to line by line. So if we could move back to this line, I would appreciate it. • (1 540) Mr. Plohman: This is a wide-ranging line, and we certa inly want to deal with the concerns I have placed. I have placed a number of questions. You, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, have given great latitude for the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to intervene on behalf of the Minister of Education (M rs. Vodrey). I think it is important that he sees the other side.

I do not know that he will actually give it any consideration because he has not up to this point in time as Premier, but I think it is important to point out that there is a message coming through to the public loud and clear that there is no consistency and no meaning behind stateme nts being made by the government that they want to protect families, when in fact they are throwing more of them into unemployment. They are discontinuing support for families in terms of bursary assistance, even for university. Many programs that were in place to assist families have been eliminated by this government.

We look at the $400 tax increase this year, the huge increase in property taxes, the huge increase that has taken place by way of partial harmonization of the PST with the GST. They talk about maintaining it at 7 percent but there is a significant increase of $40 million into the provincial coffers as a result of provincial sales tax increases.

When you put that alongside the cuts to corporations and their taxes which have not resulted in the creation of jobs or stimulation of the economy-because we have been in last place in investment for years in this province, and we have languished behind other provinces in many of the key economic indicators-w e can only assume that the governmen t's policies have failed, and the Minister of Education (Mrs.

Vodrey) has to take heed of those when she so loosely uses the terms that in order to have an economic recovery, everyone now has to take salary cuts and a decrease in services in order to bail out this governmen t's failed policies. It just does not add up, and it does not have any credibility with the public out there. That is what we are saying as often as we can and whenever we can.

Let us deal with the chaotic situation that we find education in, contrary to what the minister has talked about in the first few days of the Estimates here as we have discussed this partnership the ministe r says she respects so deeply and which is included in decision making . We do not see any evidence of partnership when we see all of the different publics involved in ed ucation protesting government decisions, whether it be school truste es with regard to Bill 16 , whether it be superintenden ts, teachers, business officials and trustees with regard t�erhaps to a lessor extent the trustees-8111 22.

When we see the underfunding in education by this government, we can only assume that ther e is wides pread discontent, and now the students have joined in. They said, we do not want to sit back and just allow the government to destroy the public education system and what we have come to expect, and so they are taking action.

They, I think rightfully so, should be directing their concern and their anger-at least to a degree and I would say to a large degree-at the minister and this governmen t, not just at the school boards, because the school boards are placed in this untenable situation as a result of the decisions the minister and Premier (Mr. Filmon) have made. As I said earlier,

30 15 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 93 when you cap school funding at a minus 2 percent and you cap the ability of school divisions to raise money locally, you have put the squeeze on them where they have no alternative but to cut deeply into the quality of education. This is not fine-tuned. The Premier knows there are many school divisions which cannot continue to function. The Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) knows this, that they cannot continue to fund education because they have a very low tax base in comparison. They are in a very difficult economic situation.

In Antler River, the Deputy Premier's (Mr. Downey) riding in that area of the province, the Antler River School Division is in a despe rate situation with regard to funding and maintaining the quality of education. There is no consideration for these kinds of situations. It is an across- the-bo ard , hea vy-hande d approach. The unrest is not only in one or two school divisions. It is being felt, by the letters that we have and the correspondence , the phone calls, we are getting, in all corners of the province.

It may well become much wider, this unrest that we see now, if the minister does not have the backing of her Premier (Mr. Film on) to support some fundamen tal change in directi on, so that she can give some assurances to the public, that in fact there is going to be a change, there is going to be a realization of the impact these decisions have had up to this point, and a desire to undertake the necessary negotiations and discussions to alleviate the pressure and the frustra tion that has been building up.

So I ask the minister again what action she intends to take to deal with the growing signs of unrest in the education community at the present time? Mrs. Vodrey: Let me attempt to bring the member for Dauphin back to reality now. He has really flown off, and I think it would be important now to remind him of some of the facts in Manitoba, and some of the realities in Manitoba. First of all, just Jet me give you some statistics.

They are '89-90 statistics, but Manitoba has the second-lowest ratio of educator to pupil, which means that our students-and by the way, the only one that is lower is the Yukon-w hich then says that we have paid a very high degree of atte ntion to our students and to the profes sional assistance that students receive within the schools, that is, from teachers, that is, from teacher-librarians. So in fact we know that right there, there is one state ment and one area that we can point to that says Manitoba is certainly making a very strong effort to deal with the educational needs of its students.

I can also say, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that we have in terms of our property taxation, in the 1 0-year period, 19 82-83, and then the 10 years to 19 92-93 , property taxation has remained constant at 46 percent. Similarly, the government share has remained constant at 54 percent. But In real dollars that government share has continued to go up. There has been a continued increase.

So I think it is important, and the member seems to have trouble understanding this concept, to understand that the government share of the dollar in looking at education, has been a very strong commitment, and that commitment does continue. Then the member has spoken about the issues of reform and of confidence, and I think it is important to point out the reality of the partnership that actually is ongoing with the government of Manitoba and with the educational groups across this province, and that we do work very closely with them.

We have representation on our curriculum committees, we have had represe ntation on our task force committees, and I point very specifically to the task force on distance education, which I think has produced some very helpful work to look at moving this province ahead. That task force had a wide representation, where Manitobans were able to work together on some of the real issues of education in Manitoba.

There are also regular meetings between those educational partners and their representatives on a regular basis to discuss the issues of concern, and to point out direction, and to look at areas where reform might also be looked at, because we know that we cannot stay with things as they are now completely. The member does dig himself into a hole. He thinks the way he has thought forever, and he does not seem to have any way to move himself into thinking about educational reform and into looking at new ways in our educational system.

As I have sat through the Estimates process, I have heard him continually defending a status quo approach. * (1 550) The status quo approach is not the one that is going to move us into the 21 st Century in education.

May 17 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3016 Educators themselves say that there are a number of areas in whic h we have to examine where we are going in education and that we cannot continue to do things as they have always been done. Our government has made a very strong effort to collaborate with partners in education and to listen to Manitobans as well, not just Manitobans who are represe ntative of educational organizations, but Manitobans who are interes ted in education. The report on legislative reform, whic h I have pointed out to the member, represents the opinions of over 6,000 Manitobans.

That is a very strong effort that we have made to make sure that the ideas of Manitobans are paid attention to and are included in reports for the consideration and decision making of government. In the case of the legislative reform document, we have released it and we have asked also for the opinions back of our partners in education. I think that we have an extremely good record of working with Mani tobans in educ ation an d identifying the issues that face us as we move into the 21s t Century with Manitobans. We have been moving ahead in areas of reform and moving ahead with new thinking.

There are certain realities which the member has continued to ignore and continues to not see and not see clearly. I think he does need constant reminders. I just point to another area which has been raised several times when I have been in the field, and that is the issue of violence in schools. When I was speaking to a group on Saturday evening, the group identified again that the issue of violence in schools is an important one and one that we have to look at coming to grips with even more strongly.

We currently do have work ongoing in that area through our Student Support branch and through the training that we provide to the field, but because we recognize that it is such an important issue, we do have a consultation process that will be initiated to look at the issue of violence in schools. It will be started in Winnipeg toward the end of May and in Brandon in the early part of June. With those participants we will look to come to some very concrete ideas in terms of dealing with the issue of violence in schools. We do the same thing in areas of piloting new areas of curriculum.

We make sure that we have the opportunity to speak to the teachers piloting the curriculum, to look at the kinds of suggestions and recommendations that they would make. We also have paid atte ntion to the kinds of consultation that has flowed from the high school review and that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have spoken about on the K to 12 side. We also have a similar record on our post-secondary side as well, of working with Manitobans. The member seems to need to be reminded about those areas.

Again, I would also remind him that our goals with the very difficult decisions that we had to make, and they were difficult decisions, but the underlying goal was to protect service. That is why we pointed to the areas of administrative reduction and we also pointed to the area of workweek reduction so that we could protect what was happening in the classroom. The member has continually spoken about more dollars as leading to quality and that seems to be the one linear train of thinking that that member is able to come up with.

It seems to me now, as we move into the 21 st Century, that we are really being required to think now in much more creative ways, and we are having to look at creative ways to deliver education. We are having to look at creative ways to examine quality. We have to look at partnershi p. We need to involve parents, and we need to look at the numbers of services that education is now providing. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I also want to take a momen t to speak about Antler River School Division, and I know that we will be speaking about Antler River when we get into detail on the schools fundin g mode l.

The memb er seems to have overlooked continually, when I have reminded him, that through our Education Finance Advisory Committe e, and again another example of a partnership representative group, they did make recommendations to government about the funding formula and what they had asked us to look at was issues of sparsity and transportation, among others, and those two in particular. We accept ed, by the way, those recommen dations. We accepted them, and, in accepti ng them, modified the ed funding formula, and that did benefit Antler River School Division.

So the member when he speaks about Antler River and seems to feel that no relief has been offered is wrong. Mr. Plohman: Does the minister feel the students are partners in educat ion?

301 7 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 17 , 19 93 Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, yes, students are important and partners In education, as are their parents. As he knows, and as I have said many times in terms of the post-secondary side where there are organized student groups, I do meet with those organized student groups on a regular basis. That includes student represe ntatives from the University of Manitoba and Brandon University and the University of Winnipeg and also our community colleges and also College de Saint-Bonifa ce. Mr.

Plohman: As a result of that understanding that students are partners in educati on, I want to ask the minister whether she feels any responsibility for the student unrest that is in place at the present time. Mrs. Vodrey: I think it is very important for Manitobans to have the most information and the most correct information that they can have as they understand the current budgetary situation, and I think it is importantfor students to have the complete information.

As we look at the kinds of information students have, we can see that perhaps they do not have all the information that they would need, and they have information that is perhaps coming from some single sources to the students. So I would say that it is important for all Manitobans to have the information about the current budgetary situation. Mr. Plohman: The minister says that it is important to have all of the informati on, and I could not agree more.

That is why it is important that they know the role of the provincial government and this premier and this minister in what has happened to education in this province. Of course, it is important to communicate directly on a face-to-face basis. Does the minister intend to meet with the students that are concerned about the reduction and possible reduction in services? Is the minister intending to meet directly with those students to discuss the concerns? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister, of course, meets with students all the time, which is more than the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) does.

I would say that what the member opposite continues-to put forward , of course, is an effort to try and stir up- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Could I ask the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) to come up to the mike a little bit because we are not picking up- Mr. Fllmon: The member continues to try and stir up discontent within the public school syste m rather than be ing a positive player, and he has an opportunity to do that. As Education critic, he could take a positive role, and he could try and, for instance, offer to mediate and influence his fellow teachers in this regard, but he does not.

He instead choose s to play a negative role which is very sad because mem bers of the legislature, whether they are In opposition or in government, have a-[interjection) The me mber opposite continues to interrupt. I know that that may be his style; it may be something and that-{i nte�ection) I have be en recognized by the Chair. The member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), of course, is rude and disruptive in all of his actions, but I am att em pting to participa te in this deba te and discussion. The member for Dauphin is exercised and upset because he would like to have it just one way.

He would not like to have anybody else speak on these issues because he sees himself as an expert. Having said that, we know that he does not take a very positive role. He does not atte mpt to work in a positive way with students. He does not attempt to have them under stand all of the issues that are going on in society. Rather, he sees himself as an agent of discontent, atte mpting to foment all sorts of actions that may be negative . In doing that, of course, what he is doing is encouraging the teachers to withdraw services that are very much needed by students.

The students are a helpless pawn in this game, and if you have people like the member for Dauphin, a former teacher, who likes the kind of aggressive union tactics as the only way in which he can operate in circumstances, then you end up damaging the needs of the students . They are helpless pawns in this. The fact of the matter is that if he wanted to be positive, he would go out there, talk to his fellow teachers and say, look, this is not the way to settle this matter.

Go out there and make sure that you do the best job you can for the students and do not use them as pawns in what is obviously a disagreement between you and school boards and administrators and so on , and perhaps even the provincial government; but, rathe r than do that, because it would be positive, he chooses always to take a negative action as he always has done, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, and I think that is most unfortunate . * (1 600)

May 17 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 30 18 Mrs. Vodrey: In terms of meeting with students, I would just like to give the member just a brief sampling of some of the areas where I have made an effort to meet with students and where I have made sure that I have visited across this province.

I have spoken with students obviously in the Fort Garry School Division, in Sprague School District, and the Brandon School Division, and the Winnipeg School Division, and the Evergreen School Division, the Rolling River School Division, and the Pine Creek School Division, and the Souris Valley School Division, the Swan Valley School Division, and the list goes on. I spend a great deal of time, as minister, making sure that I am in the field, that I am able to speak with people who are teaching in the field, who are parents, and also students. I have been in the classroom.

I have had the chance to speak with graduating students from many of these areas, to talk with those students about what they hope that their futures will be like and what they look forward to, and they cert ainly look forward to having an economic future in Manitoba. So there has been a number of ways in whic h I meet with students as frequently as I can to make sure that I understand what their inter ests are and what their concerns are and to provide them with informati on and to make sure that they feel that they do have a connec tion with this office and government. Mr. Plohman: I am sure the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) will give the teachers that message that he would like me to give; he will give that message directly to the teachers as to what they should or should not be doing. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) I think that, inadvertently-! do not know whether he realizes it or not; I am sure he does-through his actions and the actions of his minister, he has, in fact, given a very different message that has created this unrest and uncertainty.

He has to realize that his actions and the decisions of his government, if anything, are encouraging the teachers to do what they are doing, not any actions as I, the opposition critic in Education, have undertaken. I think that has to be on the record clear. The respon sibility lies with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and this Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) for any disunity that exists in the public education system at the present time, and letthem not attempt to blame anyone but themselv es for what is happening out there at the present time.

I ask the minister, in light of the fact that she said she has been meeting with students-! assume these meetings have taken the place over the last year on occasions when she may or may not have been in schools and so on; maybe there have been formal meetings-but what I want to know is: Have these meetings taken place since the decisions of her budget? Will she now agree to meet with the students to discuss the concerns and hear the concerns that they have with regard to what is taking place now at the present time in the public education system as a result of her and her governmen t's action in education? Mrs.

Vodrey: Yes, I have been in the schools since the time of the budget, and I have made sure that, in the time that I have been in the schools, I have spoken with teachers and I have also been in the classroom. Certainly, since the time of this budget, I have made every effort to be as accessible as possible and to continue to show my interest and my commitment to the field. That commitment continues.

I continue to make sure that, as often as possible-it is somewhat more difficult during the Estimates process because of the time, the long period of time in which we will be discussing the Estimates of the Department of Education. The communication, the very direct and face-to-face communication with those in the field has been extremely important while I have been minister. Mr. Plohman: That is why I am pursuing this.

The minister says this on numer ous occasions, every possible occasion, that the consultation and discussion, which, she now says, are with the partners in education-and she has confirmed that she believes that students are partners in the education system as of her answers today. In light of that, that is why I am asking the minister: Will she meet- well, let us put it this way first-has she been requested to mee t with students involved in any of the demonstrati ons regarding the concern about quality of educat ion? Mrs. Vodrey: I have not been requested to meet with those students .

School divisions are meeting with students and the school divisions will be explaining to students the local prioritization that each of the local school divisions has made. The

30 19 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 19 93 local school divis ions will be explaining, as em ployers, what their decisions have been based upon. So these students have had access, as far as I am awa re, to those people who are directly making decisions in their areas. Mr. Plohman: Does the minister, in her desire to communicate with the partners in education, have any desire to meet with the students on this issue as well? Mrs. Vodrey: Again, I have said to the member that the school divisions are meeting.

The school divisions are the employing authorities in each of the divisions and the superintendents do work with the trustees in terms of setting out the plans for that school division. Principals are also in charge of their own schools, and I know that they too will provide information. I continue to make every effort to be in the schools and to be able to speak with as many students as I can, but, as I said, at the moment, time is somewhat shorter because of the Estimates process and the obligation of the minister over this time. Mr.

Plohman: Well, the minister says that the school divisions are the employing authorities, but the stude nts are not employees of the school divisions. They are students, and the minister has a responsibility as the Minister of Education for the education of those students. Does the minister feel any responsibility for the concern that is being expressed by students with regard to the loss in quality of education at the present time? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I seems to me that the students have been speaking about decisions taken by teachers, and the decisions taken by teachers which have the potential of affecting students and what students hav e seen as some of their educa tional experiences. Some of those experiences occur at various times of the day. So these students are me eting with the teachers' em ployers, the em ploying authority within that school division, to discuss the priorities that that school division has set on behalf of its employees. Mr.

Plohman: The minister prefaces her answer with, "it seems to me" that the students are expressing concerns with regard to decisions of teachers. How can the minister say that is what their concerns ars and that is the limit of their concerns if she has not met with them? Mrs. Vodrey: Again, the students have asked for meetings with their local school divisions and that would be whomever they choose. It may be the super intendent. It may also be trustees.

But I have seen the reports, as the member has seen, where students are concerned about the extracurri cular activities, and those are directly related to what decisions teachers will be making, and so the students have then moved to the em ploying authority of teachers, and that is the school divisions. So, when I say what the students' concerns are, that is what I have seen them to be as they have been expressed through the media, and they are addressing their concerns in the area of the local employing authority. * (1 61 0) Mr.

Plohman: As the chie f educator, or the responsibility for education in this province, the minister surely does not want to get her impressions from the media on this. Does she not feel the need to hear directly from the students as to what their concerns are? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I suppose we could speak forever on this topic. The students have made known their concerns, which are in the area of pot e ntially the loss of extra curricular activities and support. That is directly related to the action that teachers may take.

Therefore, the students have now approached the school boards in their areas, and they have had meetings arranged in their areas. It is from the local areas where these priorities are determ ined. Mr. Plohman: Have these students attem pted to talk to the minister? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have had no indication that the students have tried to speak with me or to have a meeting with me in my off ice. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, have the students called the minister's office and talked to her staff then? Mrs.

Vodrey: I understand that some students have spoken with my office, but it was not in relation to a meeting with me. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, was it with regard to the provincial role in what is happening in Education? Mrs. Vodrey: Again, I will find out the details of the request for the member and make sure that he is

May 17 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3020 acquainted with the request that has come from the students. Mr. Plohman: I think it is important to det ermine whether, in fact, the students do see a responsibility or the need for an explanation from the minister about what is happening with the extracurri cular activities and the gene ral quality of education in the divisions throughout this province. I think it is important for this committee to determine whether the minister has been asked to comment and to assist with the concerns that are being raised. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am advised that some students did contact my office . The students wanted some direction in terms of making their concerns known. They have not asked fo