VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JULY 26, 1979 NO. 10

July 26, 1979 Tape 310 PK - 1 The House met at 3:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. !,(.R. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS HR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. h'"EARY: ~I. Speaker, my question is directed towards the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) , Sir. And it is in reply to an answer that the han. gentleman gave me the other day in connection with the investigations that have been carried on in the Province, and I appreciate the kind of information that the hen. gentleman gave us.

It is a first in this House, I might add 1 and I really appreciate the han. gentleman's philosophy too as he outlined it. But I want to ask the han. gentle~an in the case of this Societe Transshipping Compan~ that was the subject of controversy and abuse in this Province for the last ten years by Mr. Crosbie and Mr. Hickman and certain other gentlemen who are still sitting an the Government benches, would the han. gentleman indicate to the House who initiated that investigation?

Was it the RCMP? ~ Did they initiate it on their own, or were they acting under instructions and directions from the Justice Department to carry out that investigation which ended up1 as I had predicted a long time ago 1 as political persecution of the lowest kind? i'-'.R. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MIL O'l'TENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I think the han. gentle~an's oral question is essentially the same as the question on the Order Paper of today, Question 18- yes 1 the second part: "Did the RCMP initiate this investigation on their own or was it carried out under instructions from -:he !1inister of Justice? 11 I want to be in answering this question, indeed, in answering all questions, quite accurate and frequently one can be in the position where one is pretty sure of the answer, you know, 90 per cent sure of ~~e answer, but I think the bon. members will agree with me t~at I wish t~ be 100 per cent sure of the answer and I will certainly get that information and supply it to the House. 772

July 26, 1979 Tape 310 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: I appreciated that, but a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Sl~~S): A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. MF. NEARY: I am sure that the hon. gentleman will also understand the question I am about to ask. First of all 1I would like to remind hen. gentlemen, if I may, by the way1 just in introduc~on, Sir, that it was an this investigation that ~~e house of the former Premier of this Province, Mr. Smallwood, was under seige for ten hours by sixteen RCMP officers.

Has anybody taken it upon themselves to offer the former Premier of this Province, either from government sources or from the RCMP1an apology for smearing his good name in this Province with that political vendetta and that witch hunt that was started at that time? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. DTI'ENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, certainly I have not undertaken any apology to the farmer Premier, Mr. s~~llwood 1 and indeed I 773

July 26 ,1979 Tape No. 311 AH-1 MR. O'l'TENHEIMER: am not aware of any reason to apologi:.e to him. Hy connection .,.;i th this is that j becoming Minister of Justice fairly recentlY what has t!'ansired up eo now ana eo give t:he riouse all of tne J.niormaeion l can legitimately give it. Certainly I have not apologizeq,_ I have done nothing improper vis-~-vis that gentleman. That would be my answer to this House on things for which I am accountable to this House. And there is nothing I am aware of for which I am accountable to this House which would require my so Coing.

I would not even anticipate that the gentleman referred to in the bon. rr.ember for LaPoile's (M.r. Neary) auestion would expect it from me. In a general political arena things that may have been said the past seven or eight years, this member or that member or people not even in the House, that of cour is outside of my area of responsibility to the House of Asse~bly. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE~XER:(Simms) member for LaPoile. A supplementary question, A supplementary. The hon. MR. NEARY: The bon. gentleman probably misunderstood me.

I would not expect the hon. gentleman to do it because the bon. gentleman was Speaker of this House at the time. But I certainly would expect the culprit to do it and tho$e who smeared that gentleman's good name in this ?rovince ov~r that whole matter. I certainly would expect these gentlemen, if they are in the House now or outside the House 1 to stand in their place or stand outside the House and apologize for that witch hunt that was carried on that smeared that gentleman's name.

And I would hope the hen. gentleman would follow up by seeing ~;at that is done because I believe that somebody owes that gentleman an apology. And, Mr. Speaker, it brings into focus then the question, ~;e last question I want to ask the hon. gentleman: The hon. gentleman, would he take a look, and in view of the fact of the X9i~t-.was __ Jnade_~on __ _ my office by the RCMP 1 would the hon. gentleman take a good, hard 774

July 26,1979 Tape No. 311 AH-2 MR. NEARY: look at the procedure in this Province whereby you can get a search warrant? Apparently you can get a search warrant for just about anything you want in ~~is Province without justifying it. I believe that procedure should be - the new minister should take a good, hard ~ook at it and I am going to ask the hon. gentleman if he would do that because you should not be able to get a search warrant without justifYing it. You have to go down and take an oath - MR. MARSHALL; MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. MARSHP.LL: A point of order. A point of order. Mr.

Speaker, this has gone on long enough. This is a Question period •. The bon. gentleman can address questions to the ministry and not make a speech. N he is making a speech and there is provision in the rules where if he wishes to speak on topics of this nature he can 1 but not during the Question Period. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPErucER: Mr. Speaker, point of order. On the point of order. MR. POBERTS: To the point of order very briefly, my learned friend opposite I think correctly states a rule but he misapplies it in this situation.

My friend from LaPoile (Mr.Neary) was perhaps laying a ground work for a question - not perhaps, was laying a ground work. He perhaps may have been doing it a little more at length than 775

July 26, 1979 Tape 312 EC ... 1 MR. ROBERTS: rtrf han. friend 1 but I think rt:rf friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has learned that to let han. gentlemen opposite greater length then hitherto.It is noteworthy that Your-Honour, who has the responsibility as wel1 as the authority to interrupt questions if they are being improperly put, chose not to interfere. And, of course, ray hen. friand from LaPoi.le is quite aware that the Late Show ia on this afternoon and I am sure if he wishes to debate the Minister of Justice's (Hr. Ottenheimer) failure to answer the question properly, he knovs how to do it.

But I think he should be allowed to ask his questi.on, Sir, without harassment from the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: {Simms) On the point of order, the rules are clearly stated for all to understand and reAd, and I would ask all han. members to pay strict attention to the rules as they are stated. I think the question has been put, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, just give me. one second to finish it.

I a.lso want to a.sk the hon. gentleman if he loi'Ould instruct the. new Director of Public Prosecutions, whoever he might be - and I do -~~---.,-~~ not know if the han. gentleman has anybody in mind for that position, if the appointment has been made ... and this might be one of the first things that he could do, take a look at the procedure for obtaining search warrants in this Province, .MR. SPEAKER; 'lhe hen. the Minister of Justice • MR. OT'!"C'...NHEI.MER: Mr.

Speaker, to deal with the second part. ......____ first, the position of Director of Public Prosecutions will be advertised. 'the incumbent's resignation becomes effective. on the 15th of August - I am quite sure that that is the date. Instructions have already gone for advertisements in all newspapers in tl-te Province. 'lhat will be our first placement and it. is my hope that a sultably qualified Newfoundlander ...,.ill be so appointed. The first part of the q~stion with ~ respect to procedure, swearing-out information and then the issuing of 776

July 26, 19 79 Tape 312 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: search warrants 1 I think the hon. mmber is aware it is in fact the court which issues the search warrant ana -;here is obviously a distinction between Ule legitimate areas _a_f activity of the judiciary and of the Legislature, and under our present constitutional system I think it would be inappropriate for the Legislature, or the executive in this case, to endeavour to influence the court. Now I realize that before a search warrant is issued certain information is sworn to and there has to be reasonable belief to their accuracy and that.

There is, of course, a recourse which anyone who believes that a search warrant waa improperly issued or executed has, and that would be through the courts • 777

July 26, 1979 Tape NO. 313 SD • 1 up s. NEAP'!: How can you (Inaudibltl :m. SPE:.ttlt;, (Simms) Order, please! HR. G. OTTENHEIHER: Yes, in the case of all, t.nere, no doubt, would be some cost involved unless somebody c~e ~ithin_ the ambit of Legal Aid, but there is a legal recourse. I would nOt think that the cost would be extremely great.

And I suppose the same principle applies there as applies in all legal representation, at least in criminal areas or this area,and that is, if a person can not afford it then,with the help of public funds ~~ere is a fairly comprehensive system of Legal Aid.But I do not think the bon. gentleman for La.Poile (Mr. S. Neary) would require Legal Aid. MR. S. NEARY: No, neither should I be forced to pay (Inaudible)- M. SPEAKER: (Silm:ts) Order, please! HR. S .. NEARY: - perjury coounitted by law enforcement officers. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ The bon. Leader of the Opposition. !1..1l. D. JAMIESON: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I have a question which I think ought to be addressed to the Minister of Industrial Development (Mr. L. Barry).

In view of the very surprising statement in the Budget Speech with regards to the :1arystown Shipyard, surprising because there ha~been no indication 1 indeed quite t.~e contrary up to a few months ago 1 and in view of the fact that there has been a great deal of coru::ern quite naturally expressed among 3h.ipyard workers and indeed the whole community on the Burin Peninsula, may I ask the Minister of Industrial Development,first, what sorts of steps are being taken with regard to the reassessment, or whatever t.~e process is that ;::,ey have under way; But second and even more important, --, is it in fact ~~e case that no changes or significant layoffs or anything of this nature are contemplated in the foreseeable future? f.-l..R.

SPEA.l\ER: The hon. Minister of Industria~ :levelopment. 778

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 313 50 - 2 HR. L • BARRY: Hr. Speaker, wit.."l respect to the steps that are being taken, the Board of Directors - and it is a new ~ Eoard of Directors that has been in place ~~ere-or at leas~ a number of the members have only been in place, say, in ~":le last ·~ear - they are engaged in a review of the estimating procedures, the cost~ control procedures and the accounting procedure generally a~ the yard. There have been steps already taken with respect to putting procedures in place to make it~ more efficiently run but1 not only that 1 an operation where there are no surprises.

The object of a business enterprise is to have sufficient information flowinq through to the Board of Directors to be able to project what costs a::e going to be and what the end result is going to be on a particular contract. This review is taking place, is being carried out together 779

July 26, 1979 Tape :1o. 314 DH - 1 MR. L. BARRY: with the manager of the yard 1 who is on the Board of Directors.At the present: time t:heLe ha::o bt!en nu .tepoLt ;--et bt:oughL lnLo qOve.ru- ment on the specific· matters that had to corrected,but I am expecting a report in the near future. There is no plan with respect to lay-offs at the present time 1 but obviously ~~ese are very serious losses that have been incurred and government, together with ~~e Soard of Directors, is going to have to take a look at the operation there from the ground up 1 all aspects of it.

But certain things have already been carried out and we will be in a position I think to have the problems identified in a very short time. ~~. D. JAMIESON: MR.. SPEAKER: ( 5!!-t'"-'.

S) Opposition. MR.D. JAMIESON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. Leader of the I thank the hon. me~ber for the information and I do so 1 unfortunatel~with a fair amount of 'I told you so' in my tone 1 ~ot tb the hen. member in his present capacity but to his predecessors and to the government. I think the record clearly shows that with regard to the estimating procedures and the like that ~~e word was passed to this Newfoundland Governmen~ some time ago that indeed there was a very serious lack - MR. S. NEARY: In 1575. MR. D. JAMIESON: '"'Y friend for LaPoile {Hr.

Neary) also reminds me that as long ago 1975 this matter was brought up in this House. The point I am really concerned about now, however, is that this assessment 1 which is one more of an ir~~erable n~~er which this govern­ ment seems to be undertaking in every conceivable kind of area 1 what it has done is again cast a question over the employment prospects in xa~;sto~~. So may I ask the hen. the minister hew soon it is likely that this new review will be completed and the uncertainity removed?

And could I couple with that, if I may so that I will not have to ask a further supplementary, a question as to whether or not 1 for exarnple 1 if ~~ere are changes to be made is there any indication yet that they will 780

July 26, 1979 !.JR. D. JAMIESON: force? MR. SPEAKER (SI~.MS} : !-!R. L. BARRY: Tape NO. 314 DW - 2 in fact result in a smaller work Hon. minister. r-o.r. Speaker, I do· not __ think that anyone contemplates, including the employees of the Marystown_ Shipyard 1that the yard could continue to proceed on the same basis as the figures indicated proceeded in ~~e last year where it suffered a serious loss and that unless the yard is put into a position wher~ - I am not saying it necessarily must be profit makinq 1 but t.lotis is 781

July 26 1 1979 Tape No. 315 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: one question which gover~~ent will have to decide, in the event there is a conclusion that it cannot be a profitable operation..- I am nat saying that it cannot, maybe it can -but in the event the evidence indicates it c~ot be a profitable operatian,gavernment would have to decide what should be the l~it or extent of the subsidy, the annual subsidy, and there is a limit beyond which this government will not be prepared to go. So I am afraid, Mr.

Speaker, that I cannot remove - until I have a full report from the Baord of Directors - I cannot remove the uncertainty which might exist with respect to the employment picture at the Marystown Shipyard because we are going to have to determine whether it is possible to put the yard in a better financial position in t~e Zuture than it has been in in the past. I am inclined to think t~at we will be able to do that. I am inclined to believe that there is a good plant down there.

I am inclined. to think there is, and ! am personally familiar,as you know1 with ~~e area, that there is a skilled and good work ~orce there, but perhaps on the part of all concerned, goverr~ent, management, and the employees at the yard, there has been a tendency not to face up to the hard realities of life 1 and if the yard is going to be a viable proposition attitudes on the part of the employees,' attitudes an ~,e part of management, and I am committing goverr~ent to take a complete review as to its app%oach to the Marystown Yard. So all I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, is that it is a serious matter. !t is a matter which is being actively pursued at the present time and I hope to be in possession of all the facts at the earliest possible opportunity so that government policy can be directed to cure whatever problems might exist at c:he yard. HR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. member for Burin-Placentia West, followed by the ~on. Pember for Trinity-Bay de Verde, 782

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 315 NM - 2 !<!R. D. P.OLLETT: Thank you, t1r. Speaker. I would like to ask the han. minister a further question. In relatio~ to the review be~ng acne presenciy oy cne owners 1 wi!i tnac ai~o ~nc~ucie any possible implications or complications for the ~AryS7own Yard, with the still proposed St. John's synchrolift? MR. SPEAKER (Si~~s): The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. HR. BARRY: I wonder? MR.

HOLLETT: Would the han. member, repeat the question, Yes, quite easily. i'ihat I am asking basically is in the present review going on by ~~e owners of the yard, which is the government, will it take in:~~~lder~:~~~~-possible implications or ramifications that the proposed synchrolift for St. s would have en the Harystown Yard? HR. SPEAKER: !A.R. BARRY: The han. Minister of :tines and Energy. !1r.

Speaker 1 the Marys town Shipyard is going to have to stand or fall on its own feet and I for one am not going to be prepared to recommend to government that it be insulated and put into a cacoon and kept in a unviable financial position,and any other potential industries which might be developed in the Province be halted. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that that is not the way the problems of the Harystown Yard must be dealt with. The Marystown Yard, Mr. Speaker, 783

\ July 26, 1979 Tape 316 PK - 1 Mr. Barry: any problems that it is incurring will have to be solved by gover~~ent, management, and employees of the Marystown Shicyard. And I am at a loss to know how the St. John's synchrolift, which is not in operation, has not taken any business away from the yard, has anything to do with the problem that the Leader of the Opposition has taised. SOME BON. MEHBEPS : MR. JW.IESON: MR. SPEAKER (SUU1S): Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, by way of a supplementary question, and just to elaborate, I think the han. member for Burin­ Placentia \-lest (Mr. Hollett) was referring to the repeated and published assurances by his predecessors and others {

a) that Marystown was a good operation, indeed it was quite glowing, the reports on it, up to the last Budget Speech and the fact indeed that the synchrolift would not be proceeded with in a way that ~~uld be harmful to the Marystown operation. I think if the han. member looks at the record he will see that these two things are here probably in the records of this House. What I would like to ask i= not that the synchrolift in St.

John's be suspended or anything of that sort, but whether or not in looking at the future of t~e ~~rystown yard the likely compatibility as opposed ~o competitiveness of those two projects will continue to be one of the main elements in the assessment as the gove~~nt assured it would be? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. 1-1inister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY; Hr. Speaker, I am aware of no change in policy on the part of government as to the compatibility of the St. John's synchrolift and the ~aryst.own Shipyard 1 and I suspect a conclusion has been made that the two can live together.

And we have heard a recent decision from the federal government that the synchrolift is to be proceeded with, and there it is. It seems to me to be a fait accompli. 784

July 26, 1979 Tape 316 PK - 2 ~.R. BARRY: As far as the Shipyard is concerned, I think I have already indicated that it is my belief that it is a good Yard in that we have a good plant, we have a good skilled work force. My concC!rn and the concern of the Board of Directors is. that~ there are, not just may be, that there appears to be a need to ~pdate and bring in certain modern business management techniques into the Yard with respect to estimating, with respect to the control of costs, and with respect to accounting and supply of information generally, and chat this should be done at the soonest.

Just one further point, Mr. Speaker; we should not be too harsh in terms of recognizing that there is a loss here. If we expect the Marystown Shipyard to proceed as much as possible as a private profit making 785

July 26, 1979 Tape 317 EC - l MR. BARRY: enterprise would, then there will be good years and there will be bad years, and there will be sorM COI'Itracts upon which losses will be incurred. And that is not necessarily a disastrous situation. 'I'he question is, Mr. Speaker, What is the degree of loss which should be expected either in one year or in a number of years? And I am not saying that merely because t.'lere is a loss in one year, possibly two years, that that means that we have to be very concerned about the continued viability of the Yard.

I do not think that is the case • I think that a proper review of the accounting procedures and the flow of information will indicate ways in \llhich the performance of the ~ard can be improved and losses such as have occurred will be avoided in the future. That is our objective. • MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Bay de Verde.. MR. F. rowE: The hon. the member for Trin.i ty - I wish to address a question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Cinn), and I wish to repeat that I do not want to be argumentative or provocative on this question because it deals with the possibility of an inshore fishermen • s strike.

The minister indicated yesterday th.at some of the problems between the parties have been resolved and he further indicated t.ltat he expected further resolutions of some of the problems between the parties involved again today. I was wondering if the minister could giva hen. members some sort of a progress report with respect to the negotiations- for t.l-oe want of a better word- 'With respect to the negotiations going on between the union and between the Fish 'l'rades Association and the government? HR .. SPEAKER: Manpower. MR. DL'-ffl: The hen. the Minister of Labour and Mr.

Speaker, I do not have a let that I can report to the House right now. I can say that negotiations are still ongoing. The Deputy Minister of Labour, M.r. Blanchard, the Deputy Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Gordon Slade, the P::esic!ent of the Fishermen, Food and Allied Workers Union and Mr. Bill Wells are meeting. 786

July 26, 1979 Tape 317 EC - 2 MR. DINN: They met all yesterday afternoon and last ni.ght until about 4:00 A.M. They were back at the table again this nJrn.ing at .uound lV~:iV. :i: t:.alked 1.:0 my deputy Ltiu.i.~>t.ar j\.I..St. before I came into the House. 'Ihey are going back at it agairi ,at 3:30 P,.M. and all I can say from government's point of view is we are going to leave no stone unturned with respect to attempting to settle the dispute. I would rather not comment any further on it. As I said, the negotiations are still ongoing. I do know that the 787

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 318 DW- 1 MR. DINN: differences, as I see them right now 1 are fairly small. We are talkig.g about half cents- i1aH cer.tsi :.~R. onrn: - half cents in some cases now. The thing about it is I really do not believe that we should have a strike over these kinds of things but you can never predict 1 as I 5aid before 1 what the outcome of negotiations will be. Oftentimes very minor things can become very major. What ! will say is tOat the government have put two officials, ~I. Ted Blanchard and Mr.

Gordon Slade 1 in there to try to help the parties to resolve their differences and I think ~~e House should keep in mind that basically we have gone through most of the negotiating procedures now. We have had a conciliation officer in there, we have had a conciliation bOard set up that could-not make recommendaticns 1 and we are new at the point where these negotiations have to continue until we resolve the differences, or they cannot be resolved and the only way is a strike.

As I say,'!.YT'f only comment would be that I Hould not be able to underst~~d not being able to settle ~,e strike when we get so close to an agreement as we have apparently at this point in time. MR. SPEAKER: {SIHMS} ~he hon. me~her for St. Barbe. MR. T. EEmiETT: Hr. Speaker, my question is directed ~~-~~~~~-~-~-;;-;;,~ to the hon. Minister of Transportation and Co~~nicaticns (Mr.

Brett); Subject: Pavin~ of Route 431. ! understand there has been at least -=='~,~---~~~ \\ ten years of requests made to every level of government possible to have that road upgraded and paved.! feel the people have been more than tolerant. They have been very patient. The road in question 1of course, is within the framework of a national park which adds to the significance of speed:in<;: '.lP demands to have that particular job dane and dane with. Up until this time, this year there has been, I understand in access of 200,000 visitors to that area. HR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! would the han. me~ber ask his question.! realize this is his first time standing so I -have allowed same leeway 788

guly 26, 1979 Tape No. 318 ow - 2 MR. T. BENN"ETT: Mr. Speaker, the whole of rlewfoundland must realize the beauty, the magnitude o£ the beauty of that area in the Bonne Bay area. I think most of you, if you have toured Newfoundland at all,must realize it is one of the most beautiful< areas. My question to the minister is 'WOUld it be fair, !'1r. i1inl ste"" ~o exvect speedin~ up of action in the direction of having that road upgraded and paved? 789

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 319 NM - 1 HR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. Hinister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, I guess the han. member is aware by now that that route, route 43~is not includ~d in ~his ~year's programme. I realize that what he said is very true and \ I can only tell him that it will be very high on our list of priorities for next year. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. Jk~IESON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the han. Premier.

There were news reports today 1 and I cannot,of course, vouche for their accuracy 1 which suggested that the Premier's predecessor had made some kind of either commitment or otherwise with regard to the home of the former Premier, Mr. Smallwood, that is that he was apparently quoted at least as saying that it was unfair that it should not be returned to him for $1, which I believe he originally received for it. I wunder if the han. Premier shares that view or does he have any comment an that particular news story? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PRE."liER PECK.FCP.D: Mr. Speaker, I am not familiar with the issue.

I noticed, I think it was in the paper this morning 1 same mention of it and some news reporter asked me about it yesterday. I f have not had a chance today to check it out but I have mentioned it to the Clerk of the Executive Council to get a briefing on it this ! evening or tomorrow morning and then 1 will be in a position with my colleagues to take a position on it. I ao nat aware of the detail 8n it but 1 am trying to get the information. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. 790

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 319 U!1 - 2 NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Transportation ana Cornmun~cat~ons. .1-'.R. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I give notiCe that I on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To A.'nend The High;..-ay Traffic Act." MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Lands and Forests. HR. HORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Crown Lands Act." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the han.

Leader of .the Opposition directed certain questions at me and I see he has now left the Chamber but he possibly may be within ear shot. The questions related to the trend in unemployment that is anticipated in the ensuing months of the fiscal year and also, I think, he asked some suestions in regard to the economic prospects of the Province for the ensuing months because of certain changes 1such as the measures taken in the Ur.ited States to deal with some downturn in their economy. I have some information on this now, Mr. Speaker. The seasonal adjusted rate for unemployment 791

July 26,1979 Tape No. 320 AH-1 DR. COLLINS: for June, has irproved and now stands at 15.5 per cent, \1\nd that is in c:ounterdistinction to 16.4 last month1 and it also compares with 16.7 for June of one year ago. In actual numberc 1 the labour force increased by ll,000 1whereas the actual numbers employed, that is in the year from~June 1978 to June 1979, the labour force increased by 11,000 and the nmnber of people employed increased by 10,000 which was a 5.7 per cent in the number of people employed.

Incidentally 1 that compares with an increase of 3.5 per cent for the whole of Canada so we have done rather better in that regard. It is expected that the unemployment rate will increase a bit towards ~,e end of the year because,of course, in newfoundland our employment is higher in the months from June until September or October. But it is expected that the employment rate will continue to improve. There will be an increased number of people entering the labour force and even though our employment rate will improve because cf seasonal variations there will be some increase in the unemployment rate.

Turning to the Newfoundland economy, Mr. Speaker, the overall measure 1 as was stated in the Budget Speech 1 for the ensuing months of this year is expected to grow by something over three per cent. That is in real terms. That is three per cent not taking into consideration inflationary aspects of things. It is expected to hold up for the remainder of the year even though there is a downturn in the 1\merican economy, and particularly in forestry production there is expected to be no weakening there. There is an international demand for forestry products. The fishery is expected to remain stable.

Thi~ of course, has to be looked at in terms of the absence of any prolonged strike but it is expected to remain stable. And also in the mining secto~ although there will be some effects from the recession in the United States, those effects are not expected to affect our economy until sometime next year. 792

July 26,1979 Tape No. 320 AH-2 PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of t~ Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have the honour to present a petition signed by a Substantial number of fishennen from the areas in question to determine the support of the fishermen from Dildot Trinity Bay for a proposal to establish, in the aforementioned location at a Eite presently occupied by the community stage, a fish processing feeder plant.

By way of support, may I say that the planners of this proposed operation feel the comple~ion of this facili~y will help bet~er serve the fishermen of the area, maximize the usage of a building that is presently fast deteriorating, as well as provide empl~nt for a number of hopeful individuals. And the petition goes on to list a number of names of fishermen from that area and I have much pleasure in presenting it today. MR. SPEAY.ER; The hon. member for Trinity-Bay De Verde. MR.F.ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like "I to support the petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition on behalf of a number of fishermen 793

July 26, 1979 Tape 321 PK - 1 Mr. F. Rowe: on the Southern Share of Trinity Bay. It affects a number of fishermen in my district as well as the han. Leader's district. of a community stage built some ten years ago which is presently not being used by anybody in that particular area. A number of- businessmen have gotte~ together, have gotten the suppcrt of the fishermen for the purpose of taking over this community stage, renovating it, and employing up to t~~nty-five or thirty people onshore.

Sir, I do not know what exactly is the status of that particular community stage, Now, I think it was built under some federal programme and there has always been a problem with respect to, you know, whose jurisdiction a community stage comes under once the thing is built. It was built by the Federal Department of Public Works or if it was built by the canada iiorks programme or a Winter Works programme or if it was built by say a Provincial programme, the question still arises who is responsible for the actual maintenance of that particular community stage?

So therein lies the basic problem with respect to getting this particular stage active and employing some people onshore and also benefiting a number of fishermen in the particular area. I wish the han. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. w.

Carter) were in his seat so that he could probably indicate exactly what the status of ~~at community stage is at" the present time, so this problem of the acquisition of the stage can be dealt with immediately, and then the businessmen involved could go ahead and make normal proposals to government and seek financial help and this kind of a thing for the purpose of employing a number of fishermen and people onshore in that particular area. So, Sir, it gives me great pleasure to support that particular petition. 794

July 26, 1979 Tape 321 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER {SIMMS): The hen. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I rise to pres~t a petition district. Any by way of

preamble, Mr. Speaker, the appr6~riate department will note that the petition is a bit delayed, but it came in,.I understand, while another .event was taking place, and it was therefore in the Speaker's office until a day or so ago when it was sent downstairs to me. Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the petition very simply requests that the four or five mile

section of road from the LaScie Highway out to the community of Hing's Bight ba ~ paved. -~ Now, Mr. Speaker, in supporting this petition let me say that this request has been made by this particular community to the government, well 1certainly since I have been here in 1975jit has been made practically every year. And in years past th~re has been correspondence even between various Ministers of Transportation and communications and the Council indicating that some upgrading vork would be carried out on that road.

For example, the year before last one of the ministers at that time 1 the present member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), told the community in writing that substantial upgrading would be carried out on that road that particular year, that turns would be taken aut, crushed gravel would be placed on the top, that some of the hills would be knocked down, and that some of the culverts that are up through the ground, broken off in the middle on whieh you chop up tires now vhen you go over, that kind of thing would be done. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is three years ago and it is still not done.

So despite th~ fact that those assurances ..,ere given in writing , the people of that community are still waiting for those assurances and for those commitments to be carried out and they have not been carried out to this date. Let me say also, Mr. Speaker, that Ming's Bight is in as close, say, proximity to Advocate Mines as is any other community on the Baie Verte Peninsula, and therefore, of course, in addition 795

July 26, 1979 Tape 321 PK - 3 Mr. Rideout: to the economic questions of transporting fish over the gravel road, and the social questions of transporting students t:::: t.~c school in Saie Verte and ~o :;;e<::ple gcd!'g b.'!ck and fnrth tn work in that community and so on, you also have the additional question which comes into play very much on the Baie Verte Peninsula and that is the health and safety aspect of the potential ccntamination of the road dust by asbestoes fibres. So, Mr. Speaker, I have very much pleasure in supporting the petition.

I refer it to the minister and I hope that some consideration to be given to it this year. We do not expect - they are a reasonable bunch of people- they do not expect that it all be done overnight but they do, I think, Sir, legitimately expect that after the written commitments of previous ministers that some of the commitments that they promised at that time, two or three years ago, be carried out. So I table the petition and ask that it be referred to the department to which it relates. 796

July 26, 1979 Tape 322 FC-1 OPDERS OF THE DAY Order 32, Bill No. {Inaudible). No. 26, I am sorry. Hotion, the hen. the Presi-dent of the Council to introduce a bilL ''An Act To Adopt An Anthem For The Province," (Bill No. 15), carried. MR. MARSHALL: Order 32. On wotion, Bill ~o. 15 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. ~R. MARSHALL: Order 31, Bill No. 23 Motion, the hen. the President of the Council to introduce a bill, "An 11.ct To Amend The District Court Act, 1976," (Bill No. 23), carried, On motion, Bill No. 23, read a first t~e, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.

MARSHALL: Order 30, Bill No. 21 Motion, ~~e han. the President of the Council to introduce a bill, ''An Act To Remove Anomalies In Provincial Legislation That May Be Construed As Discriminatory," (Bill No. 21}, carried. On ~otion, Sill No. 21, read a first tiwe, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. 1-'.AF..SHALL: Order.29, Bill No. 20 ,..--....__ Motion, the hen. the President of the Council to introduce a bill, "An Act To P.ltlend The Chairman Of The Board Of Commissioners Of Public Utilities (Pension) Act, 1974," (Bill No. 20), carried On motion, Bill ~;o. 20, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 797 1

July 26, 1979 Tape: .322 i::C - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Ordar 28, Bill No. 22. Motion, the hon. the. Pre.&idant ot: tb.a 1974,~ (Bill No. 22), carried. On motion, Bill No. 22, read. ·a tint t.ima, ordered re.a.d a second t..Lv::. on toROrrow .. Ordar 211 Bill No. 19. Motion, th• han. th• Kin.i.ster of Juatice (Hr. Ottanhei.!Der) to introduce a bill, ~An Act To Amend Tha Intesta.ta Succesaion Act,• {BiLl No. 19), carried .. On action, Bill No. 19, nad & first t.i..ma, ordered read a se.cond t.i.J:De on tomorrow. 798

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 323 NH - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Order 26, Bill No. 15. MR. SPE.AlCER (Simlrs l : Order 26, Bill No. 15. Motion, the han. Minister of Justice to inttoduce a bill, "An Act To Adopt An Anthem For The- Provin~." {No. 15) MR. ROBERTS: You did that already. MR. SPEAKER: No. I believe that was my error. I am sorry. I apologize. MR. ROBERTS: we can only do it once. MR. SPEAKER< Is it the pleasure of the House that the han. P~ster cf Justice shall have leave to introduce said Bill? MR. ROBERTS: No. We did it once. MR. MARSHALL: Motion No. 32 then, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. I apologize for that.

It probably was my own error. MR. NEARY• You could get the member far St. John's Centre (Dr. P. McNicholas) to sing it for us. Motion, the han. Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Facilitate The Development Of The Hydro-Electric Power Potenti~l Of The Lower Churchill River." (No. 26) On motion Bill No. 26 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. HR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEJU:ER: order 25, Bill No. 16. Order 25, Bilt_No. 16. \ Motion, the hen.

Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Provincial Offences And Provincial Court Inquiries." {No. 16) On motion, Bill No. 16 read a first t.iJ::Ie, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: order 24, Bill No. 17. MR. SPE.AKER1 Order 24, Bill No. 17. 799

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 323 NM - 2 Motion, the han. Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Small Claims." (Bill No. 17) On motion, Bill No. 17 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: HR. SPEAKER: Order 23, Bill No. 18. Order 23, Bill No. 18. Motion, the han. Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fire Prevention Act." (Bill No. 18) On motion, Bill No. 18 read a first time, ordered read a S~'ind time on tomorrow. HR. SPE.AKER (Simms) : MR. MARSHALL: The han. President of the Council.

I would like to call Committee of supply but I do not see it on the motions on the order Paper. Interim Supply, is it there? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Order~ of the Day, Order No. 2. Oh yes, Committee of Supply. Committee of Supply, order 2. A poor House Leader. on motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): MR. OTTENHEIMER: Order, please! Subhead 301-01 - Executive Council. The han. Minister of Justice. Mr.

Chairman, briefly on this because the last time the Committee was considering this estimate there was s~e discussion on contractual public servants cr people performing public functions contractually. Han. members will, or at least those who were here last year, will recall that an amendment was passed in The Financial Administration Act to the following effect, a quite brief one, "Except as otherwise provided in any act 1 it is a condition of every 800 y

July 26, 1979 Tape Ho. 324 SD - 1 contract providing for the payment of any money by Her Majesty 1 the raym.ant there.mder i~> subject to there being an appropriation for the particular goods or services for the fiscal year in Wicb payment urde.r that contract falls .due. Obviously, the effect of that is that aach year it is up to the Legislature to vote Supply, to vote sa.J.ary. I am not spea.ldng no.., with respect to any specific contract, just in ganaral. I suppose that the principle there is one of the ~uprema:y. vf the Legislature and that is the protaction thsroof.

Nov there is, of course, the toasi.bility 1 as the hon. me:mbar for the Strait of Belle!!:le (l1r. E. Roberts) mentioned and mentioned in a question to me Last week some time, of enabling legislation or a statute, a contract which ha~ a particular statutory authorization. And, of course, as the bon. gentleman knowa: as wel.l, the principle of parliamanta.ry supremacy \oiOUld not be affected thera because Parliament could repe.a.l it in the next session.

ObVioWily, that ia a more drutic "Jay and I am not suggesting that as a thing responsible people do unless thera is very due causa and if there is very due causa it could be done and no doubt has been done. AN HON. MEMBE:Rr Parliament is still supreme. MR. G. O'I"l'E:NHEIK:Rr If Parliament authorized it then Yes. So the distinction betvean the position of a contractual employee having his contract through statute or othe.rwisa 1 in the final analysis the effect can be the same if the Legislature - MR. ROBERTS: If the Legislature rules:. MR. G • OT"''E:NHEIMER! Yas.

But a person undar contract and the Leqislatura re.fusas tc veta money t.hen tha Legislature is suprema. But if a parson haa a contract through statute or a statutory enactmant - MR. ROBE:RTS: tlo problem. M.R. G. OTTENHF;IMER 1 - no p:roblm in the voting 1 it is r.ot Blli

July 26, 1979 Tapa No. 324 so - 2 HR. G. OTTENHEIMER: voted on~ It is statutory but it is not the 100 per cent security because the Legislature not in a supply, not in a supply action- MR. E • ROBERTS : (Inaudible) in the s~atutory salary (inaudible). MR. G. O'I'TENHEIMER: Yes. No, the only point I am maki.ng is that if there is not the 100 per cent security even through the statutory manner because the Legislature may if it wishes for same purposes repeal the statute. H.R. E. ROBERrS: I know. No problem on that. t!r. Chairman, I thank the hon. gentleman~ MR.

CliAIRMAN: (Butt) Belle Isle. ' The han. member for the Strait of MR. E. ROBERTS: I do not know in Committee if we need always to- as long as Your Honour recognizes a member 1 unless it ~ is necessary for the purpose of recording for Hansard because in Comm1ttee, as Your Honour knows, we w~ll often be up and down and it is much less formal,of course, than the House; But I gather I have been recognized lly Your Honour and I thank Your Honour.

The minister and I, I think, are heart to heart, mind to mind or whatever that calypso song once said, I agree with him and I think that what he said reflects the same doctrine I was advancing the other day. I made a general statement of the law as I understood it to be.He, has found a specific statutory example and, of course, our statutes are filled with examples of contracts that have been ratified by th.e Legislature and quite properly so.

I think the minister will also find, if I am not mistaken, in the Department of Supply Act, the Act that creates, whatever that department is row called, tile power in the }tinister of Supply to make contracts for more than a one year period on certain terms if it is a particularly good buy and so forth. NoW 1 what I am concerned with is the situation which could emerge if, for example, the government were to 802

July 26, 1979 Tapa No. 324 so - 3 enter into a. contract, a minister acting- in right of the crown, were to entc.r into a contract for say a. five year period.. I do not W<J..nt to talk about any specU:l.c contract. Let us forget any examples: there may or may not have ~e_n, they a.ra not germAne to this argument - this question, it is not an argUment. A five year contract is entered into in perfect good. faith on both sides 1 and the Legislature in the first year votes the Supply, there is no other specific authori.ution, there ha.a been w bill

an act to ratify, adopt and confirm a contract 'W'ith Mr. A for his personal sarvices. Now, 'W'hat happens if in the second year, for soma reason, any reason. forget 'Whether it is the government'~ failure to ask,or wMther it is the goverrment's desire not to ask, it coulcl be aither I 'lot:luld susgestlor it could conceivably be the inability of the government to win the support of the Ccmm.ittea and that would lead to a general election and that is anot.ha.r point altogether.

What happens if that contract - if nc money is voted in the StiCOnd year f Does tbe person who is not going to get his salary because there is no legislative authorization to pily it and the comptroller will refuse to pay it an:i tha cleputy minister involved 'W'Ul refuse to pay thilt salary; he wou.ld have no choice otherwise he is personAlly responsible, does thAt person than have a right of action not aga.inst the minister personally because the mini.ster has rot act1iild personally he has actad, you know, ;;o and so acting in right" of the cro..,n as mini~ter of this or minister of whatever it may be.

And what concerns me particulArly is that conceivably could arise and wh.at I want to avoid and perhaps the minis tar - I do not want to carry on much longer, we hava h4d. a good ventilation of the topic. If the minister could simply assure me that we wlll oot see an out- of-court compromise,bec.ause 'W'hat wou.ld bother me is if 803

July 26,1979 Tape No. 325 AH-1 MR. ROBERI'S; the man with the five year contract qot his lawy!!r to colrll! in and say to the mini!lter, "Look I could !!mharrass the daylights out otf you by suing you. and then putting you on the spot and seeing what the Supreme Court would do." And then ~e response is, "Alright we will give you three years salary and ve will settle out ctf court." Bingo: Thenthe next thing we knOll, Supplementary SUpply the next year- we might , n9t even know it haa been done tmtil the Auditor Genen:l pic:ks it up two or three yean down the pike_, and that quite literally could happen.

So ~ybe i! the minister could tell me - obviously he and I are o! one mind on the law. His officials who know the law have told him what th!! l!!W is and he has told it to us and it is essentially as I put it to the committee on TUesday when WI!! met. so what concerns me now is what happens-and I am putting an academic question but it is not completely unforeseeable or unthinkable- what does happen \then the government choose to break a contract and they do not cause supply to go through the second year?

Does the person who is a party to that contract have a right of action against tha government and if so will the government dQfend it or will they compromise it? MR. OT'I'ENHEIMERt _HR .. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) Justice. HR. OTTENHEIMER: right of action or not I - MR. ROBERTS 1 a legal opinion. MR. OTI'ENREIMER1 Mr. Chaiman. The hen. Minister of Whether the person had a No. I am not asking for - but certainly if an action were taken I think the government has a responsibility to the Public purse,to prot!!ct the Public P~e and not to epend money unnecessarily and not to spend money !or the sake of convenience.

If 4 government is legally obliged to make an ~ard then obviously that is a diff~rent matter but I not think it would be proper to spend money without it 804

July 26,1979 Tape No. 325 l\H-2 MR. OTTENHEIMERt being required to Co so. That '-'Otlld be, you knOW", somewhat financially irresponsible. I think what the hen. gentleman was thin.J;ing of was a settlement so that somebody vould not se~k a court d~cision. HR. ROBERTS: Yes. The minist~r is g~tting to the point.

He says, "If th~ government are not recpu.r~d to", I think, was his phrase, now th~ real quemtion then b~c:omes,What is required~" It is on~ thing if a Deputy Minister or the dlief Law Officer says, "Minister my advice to you, Sir, is that we will likely be found liable, we will settle it." Now I knov in practice, in ~e c:ommercial hurly-burly downtown that happens often.

I suppose !or every hundred claims that are put forward, in say motor vehicle work, 95 per cent of them are compromised on the advice of the solicitors on either side saying to their respective clients, "Look settle this one." If the ll'linister would say to me that if such an action is launched the government will let defend ~ t, will let it proce~d to judgement ftnd then if the Suprema Court says, "In our opinion, having considered this matter we !i.nd ~e governm.ent are liable," then I have no quarrel.

Maybe I would think they would be wrong but then the HoWle changes tha law, The Supreme Court applies the lMJ and intarprets it. But I sea a clear and present danger of a settlement beinq made of several hundred thousand dollars.

Because if you take a salary,of say, $40,000 a year for five years that is $200,000 being made on the advice of an official and maybe it is sound ~dvice, but .,.'hat I get at, Sir, the principle unCerlying it all is that money would have b-een spent, the Ho~e would have had no control over it first nor last and that,of c:ourse,goes right to the root of the 'Whole: purpose and being of this House of Assembly. MR. O'I"l'ENHEIMER1 MR. CHAIRMNJ: (Butt) Justice. MR. O'rl'ENHEIMER: Mr. Chai:onan. The hon. Minister of A brief eomment there. Certainly 1 I think in general the principle should be that money should 805

Jaly 25,1979 Tape No. 325 MR. O'I'TENHEIMER: not be paid out in this type of a circ::umstance unless there is a court order to that effect. MR. ROBER'I'S 1 A judgement. MR. Q'ITENHEIMER1 Y e;s . I think it would be necessary to state along with that 7 that in each specific instance obviously one would wish to have a sound legal opinion from-one of J the solicitors. I think that is the general principle but I think ~~ in each specific instance it would be nacessary to have an opinion I because the cirC\D.Sta.nces could be very, very differemt.r could they not? MR.

ROBERTS: To my knowledqe this question has never been litigated in this Province, To my knowledge. I will let it go. HR. CHAIRHAth The hen. member for LaPoile. Mr. Olainan, I concur MR.

NEARY1 "{ with my bon. ) ' is trying to colleague, Sir, that - I believe what my han. colleague get at there; is the fact that when the Premier and the ministers or anybody on behalf ot government enters into long-term contract!! like the Chairman at the Ac:tion Group W"hich is a te.n year contract-! believe scmebody in the House, on the other side I believe, estimated thl!!! contract to be in the vicinity of three; qt:.a.r-ters of a million doll an. I am not sure it it was somebody on the othe:r side or Mr. Cole himself. So obviously, 806

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 326 "" - 1 HR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, it is going to cost the taxpayers of this Province an arm and a leg to get ou~ of that contract. luld the hon. the Premier may send for Mr. Cole and have him c:ome into the eighth floor 1 or take him, down in the private _dini.ng rcoii!Jdown in the Kitchen Cabinet downstairs and they may have a chat but Mr. COle is laughing all the ..,ay to the bank thanks to the negligence, thanks to the generosity of Mr. »:>ores and the hon. gang that sat around the roun~ table on the eighth floor up until March 17th., 1979. Hr.

Cole is laughing all the way to the bank. The contract is estimated to be in the vicinity of three quarters of a million dollars and I would zuggest, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. COle is not going to let go very easily plus the fact 1by the way, that it '.lAS also in the contract that he would be appointed a senior Deputy ~~nisterJin a position '.lith Genior Deputy Minister's status. The './hole thing was crazy, absolutely cra.-y, it '.laS insane. Who ever dreamt it up must have had a tmr.porary lapse of sanity, it '.las so crazy.

The hen. gentleman knows ..,e argued against it on this side of the House '.lith no avail. And now the taxpayen: are going to have to pay the penalty. luld tho same «<ay with Mr. Hartin. I did Mr. Hartin the greatest favour- as a ti'IBtter of fact)'! am after doing two or three Tory candidates favours in this Pro .. -±nce. Mr. Dick Green, when I defeated him over on Bell Island I did him the greatest favour that I ever did anybody in my life and I did the same thing for .Hr. Martin out in LaPoile. MR. SlHMONS: Do not forgee the fellow who got the farm (inaudible). HR. S.

NEARY: Md I am not forgetting the fellow Who has the f4rm tractor and all the other RUral Development Author! ty g%1!UltS, that I defeated over on Eell Island. AN HON. MEMBER: Who was it7 MR. S. NEARY 1 Who wa~ it? It was the hockey player '.lho ran against tM twice. 807

July 26, 1979 MR. SIMMONS: MR. S. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS 1 name on the record. MR. S, NEARY t T~pe N-o • 3 26 DW - 2 It was a good try, I suppose. Yes, he made a good run at it. I (Inaudible) made a good try to get his He tried to get his name on the record, did he? The other gentle~ that I defeated is now down in~the Justice Department. I have no qualms about that, the han. gentleman earned his spurs. The other gentleman that I defeated is al50 on the payroll - ve have never heard anything about him in years - he is the Chief PUblic WOrks lnSpl!ctOr in Western-Newfoundland. MR. SIMMONS: MR. S.

NEARY t inspectl!d a building yet. MR. R. SDOONS: MR. S. NEARYt Is that right? Yl!s. I do not bl!lieve he has I!Ver He is an Ichabod crane. is he7 That is right. So I have done rrore Tory candidates favours - they all end up better off than I am, Mr. Martin included. MR. R. SIMMONS: on deserves a good job. HR. s. NEARY: You see, 'steve; anyone who takes you Well, that is right. I mean they know they are being sacrificial lambs and so they obviously go into the race with a - I do not know if Mr. Mart~ was under contract when he ran against me. lf he was,I would like tO hear the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) give his opinion on that. I have a feeling that Mr. Cabot !-!artin,with all due respect to the gentleman,was under contract. Had not signed the contract~- the Premier is needing his head - had not signed his contract? Certainly he had negotiated a contract with the hen. gentleman because the bon. gentll!man told us before the House was dissolved. 808

July 26, 1979 PF.EMIER P£CKFOFID: other oerson - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. s. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. S. NEARY: Tape NO. 326 rM - 3 He had a leave of absence like every Leave without pay. You rr~n he was on salary at the time? The contract was signed. The contract was signed. Oh, Mr. Speaker, now we are getting at SOII'll!thing -here, Sir. I am not sure whether that is legal or not I would like to get the Minis tar of Justice (Mr. Ottenheil'rler) to give his advice on that. He was not in the category of a ~lie servant, he "'as under contract.

He was working for the Premier's C'lffice on a contractual basis. or just a straight salary? PRE.HIER PECKFORD: MR. S. NEARY: PR£MI£R P£CKF'ORD: MR. S. NEARY: was there any fee for service 1 invol v~d Whatever the contract said. Do we halfe the contract? I tabled ~~e contract yesterday. I was not here I will take a look at it. That is all right,! will look at it, Mr. Chairman. PREMIER PEOCFORD: Well, I am sorry if I had not known you 'WBre not here I would have tabled it for you again today. MR. S. NEARY: The hen. gentlemen, there is no need in him getting upset. 809

July 26, 1979 Tape 327 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: I am not going to spent the afternoon on the pride of the Tory party, Mr. Martin. All I want to know is if he confirmed that he was, but he had leave of absence. Who" did he get . . . the leave of absence from? Did he have to apply to the Chief of the Public service or did he go to his boss, the han. gentle~n? AN HON. MEMBER: I had to resign. MR. NEARY: This gentleman here behind me had to resign his position - AN HON. MEMBER: With the Department of Fisheri~s. PREMIER PECKFQRD: (Inaudible) of the Public Service.

There were other candidates who ran who had to do the same thing. MR. NEARY: In other words, Hr. Martin had the preferential treatment. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. NEARY: The preferential treatment. Well why do you just not admit it? PREMIER PECKFORD: Be was not a member of the Public Service. MR. NEARY: Well now you are - make up your mind, it ;.;as one thing or the other. The hon. gentleman just told us that he was granted a leave of absence the same as any other public servant. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, I never said that. I never said that. lm. NEARY: My han. friend could .not get a leave of absence.

PREMIER PECICFORD: I never said that. Do not put words in my I did not say that. I said that the hon. gentleman had a contract. That is not the same as every public servant has in the Province. MR. NEARY: Mr. Clairman, what I would like to know - I am not a Lawyer and I am so naive that I do not follow that logic the han. gentleman just flung at me, it is enough to boggle my mind and my imagination. He had a contract. He had a contract. And then all of a sudden he did not have a contract. He can go out and run in an election, and then he can come back and his contract is picked 810

July 26, 1979 Tape 327 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: again. Is that what the Don. gentleman is saying? SOME BON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Was the contract cancelled? Was thl!!l contract set aside? Was it cancelled or was it just laid 9n the_table? MR. WHITE: Did he get paid? MR.NEARY: Did he get paid( That is a good question. Pid he get paid while he was out running in that campaign in LaPoile? AN BON. MEMBER: It was retroactive from the 26th. of MArch? MR. NEARY: Was it retroactive from the 26th. of March? So he got paid? No7he did not get paid. AN HON. MEMBER: He did not. MR. NEARY: AN BON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: MR.

SIMMONS: MR. NEARY: So, Mr, Olairma.n, the argument here - The 26th. of March. Oh the 26th. of March. (Inaudible) three months. - the employment shall be for a period of two years and shall be deemed to have cotm~enced on the 26th. .::lay of March A.D. 1979. Could the han. gentleman tell me whether his candidate in LaPoile was paid while he was campaigning? MR. MORGAN: You are forgiven for outbeating him, boy! MR. NEARY: Oh, Mr. Chairman, the bon. gentleman had me beaten before the House was dissolved. The bon. g~ntleman sat over there crowing and barking and bellyaching about how wonderful this was,.

This pride of the Tory party was going to clean me up , going to gut me out, and I was afraid • Well the han. gentleman doe a not have very much to say about it now. MR. OORGAN: MR. NEARY: You will never {inaudible) beaten, will you? Vindictive! Almost is not quite enough, not quite enough. It is not like the NHL, Mr. Chairman, you do not get a chance to playoff, there is no semi finals, you either win or lose. And the bon. gentleman Btl

July 26, 1979 Tape 327 PK - 3 Hr. Neary: for Naskaupi (Hr. Goudie) has won his seat just as much as the han. gentleman for Bonavista South (Hr. Morgan) 1 even though it ~s only bv thirty odd votes. There are no semi finals, no playoffs. And so what I am asking the han. gentl~ to clarify is whether or not Mr. Martin was paid when he was campaigning? Or was he docked? And is this standard procedure? This is coming out now as new policy. And why do nat the people in the Public Service have the same privilege as a person who is under contract?

Why cannot they take leave of absence and come back to their jobs if they so desire? Why give a few the preferential treatment and make the others pay the supreme sacrifice? Hr.

Chairman, the other thing I want to raise here under this,while we are an the Premier's salary, for the last seven or eight years in this Province, Sir, for the last seven :z·earsJat least,we have had a closed-door policy in Newfoundland~ For twenty-three years W@ had an open-door policy whereby the Premier of this Province who occupied the Premier's chair on th.e Eighth Floor of Confederation Building saw every Delegation, saw every individual, saw everybody, everybody but everybody, the door was open, and it did nee make any difference i£ you were an aristocrat or if you were a welfare recipient, if you could go down there and sit long enough on the Eighth Floor you would eventually gee to see the Premier of the Province.

Now would the hon. gentletn40 tell us what kind of a policy the hon. gentleman is going to adopt? Is he going to put up the barriers down there the same as his predecessor? Is he going to use all of these flunkies that he got here to stop people from getting in to see the han. gentleman? Is he just going to pick and choose? Is he just going to say, I will see my friends, and that is all? Or is the han. gentleman going to run -d an open oar policy as we were so used to for twen~;-three years in this Province? AN HON. MEMBER: That is a laugh! 81.2

July 26, 1979 Tape 328 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: That is no laugh, Sir! That is no laugh! I have a feeling that the hen. gentleqn might be inclined to run an open-cioor policy, at- leu.t, I hope the hon.- qentleman dotis. Because if the hon .. gentleman does not do that he is gC:i~g to dis~point me, disappoint me greatly. I know it is hud work, Sir. You have to punch. in eighteen and twenty hours a day and you have to be prepared for anything.

And you have to have: your Cabinet meetings and you have to dictate your correspondence and _attend the House and all that sort of thing, so it is very, very tiresome and very gruelling and very hard hut it has to he done. For seven years the 8th Floor of Confederation Bui~ding was barricaded, was blocked off from the people of this Province, from the electorate. They were lucky the last year or so. The Federation of Labour came in with their annual brief and they were lucky to get five or ten minutes in the cabinet room.

I would like to hear the hon .. gentleman express h.is views on that, whether or not the hon. gentleman is going to run an open-door policy or ia he going to set up the barricades the same a.s his predecessor did down there? By the time you get through a dozen - Mr. Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) Order, please! couple of minutes, Your Honour. MR. CHAIRMAN: Bay d'Espoir. MR. SDM:INS: 'lbe hon. member, your time has expired. Oh, I will be back at it again in a. 'lhe hon. -the Ulelf!ber for Burgee - Mr.

Chairman, first of a.ll, I would say to my colleague who has just finished speaking that if there ia acme ubiquity about the contract of the gentleman he was mentioninq, perhaps a more precise case, if he wants to pursue it., is the one involving the number of Cabinet ministers whom the former Precder laid off for an in~im period during the leadership. He removed them from their portfolios, you remember, and these were his words, that he wa.s removing them from thei%: portfolios until the convention was over. So for a month or so the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) was rem:lved from his 813

July 26, 1979 Tape 328 EC - 2 MR. SI.MHJNS: portfolio as a candidate. The mettber for St. Mary 1 s - The Capes (Mr. W .. Carter) ..,as rettOved beca.use he was a carullda.te.. T!le presu.t- P:em.!.e:= was r-ecoved !::e:.:1:::sa 1--a Y.:t.!' a :::e..~d.::::.e, and others. Now the question is, Did these fellows draw Cabinet salary during that period - MR. NEAR¥: Right. MR. SIMMONS: - when they were not, by the Presnier 1 s own word, doing their job? He took them out of the job because they were so busy being candidates. I am sure that my good friend, the President of the Tory Party will remember the statement.

The former Premier took them out of their jobs, he rezooved them from their jobs, he made them \Ul-Cabinet ministers, he unmade them during that period. And the question arises whether during tha.t period the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) received a Cabinet salary for work that he was not doing because he was told by the Premier of the day not to do it.

The question arises as to whether the present Premier in hia capacity as Minister of Mines and Energy before he was removed from that job because he was a candidate in the leadership of last March - the question arises as to whether he received salary during that period for work he did not perform, Mr. Chairm.aa., because the former Premier, Mr .. Moores, had removed him from the job until the leadership convention was over. MR. NEAR¥: Correct. MR..

S!MHJNS; So there ,are a nwnber of issues along the vein of the one raised by my colleague, a number of issues as to whether, indeed, a number of individuals have received remuneration for work which they did not perform because they were busy full-time, very much in the public eye, doing something else .. MR. NEA!cr' MR. SIMMONS: They should tum it in if they did. Well, if they did, I have no doubt now that I have drawn it to their attention that there will be a rush to the central cashier down there with cheques paying back this aft'lunt which would be - MR. NEARY: They ought to be certified cheques too. 814

July 26, 1979 Tape 328 EC - 3 MR. SIMMONS: I bava qreat fai.th in the member tor Bonaviata South (Mr. Morgan). I have no doubt that he did not Wa th• are only twelve Jd.nutaa now before the caahier qou hclila tor the dAy ' . . so perll.apa it will b• tOibOrrow now - be will be down there with his pe.raonal cb.equa qivinq the reiund to the central cuhier with a little nota e.xplaini.nq that 'This is som l!lllley I received darinq the b&denhip campaiqn when I wu working hard to beccma laad.er of the Toey Party.

There is no pay for that, not becoming leader - thera is pay it you get to be leader. 'Ihat d.i.d not happen in the cu• of flrJ friend from aonavista South, but I am sure he will qive a little note expla.ining to the central cashier ao 815

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 329 NM - 1 MR. SL"{MQNS: she is not too confused on the subject. on another subject, Mr. Chairman, I hope the Premier or someoedy wno w~ll commun~cate to him, pernaps the Minister of Municipal Affairs {Mr. N. Windsor) whom-~ see i!). the precincts of the House 1 'lot'OUld communicate to him our particUlar concern on the Home Ownership Programme.

I have had a number of people, I do not know how mAny, certainly since I raised the matter in the House a couple of days ago I have had I suppose twenty, twenty-two, twenty-three people either phone me or come to me, in one case write me ~ note on the subject, peopl• who are directly affected, I repeat, people who are directly affected by the change in the government's position. As a Party, the Tory Party said before the election to home-owners, or would-be home-owners, ~wa will give you $1500 .. " That is the way they understood it.

Now they find that in some cases they will only ~et $500 and in some other cases they will not even get the $500 if they had ~he building beyond the floor stage as of August 1, next Wednesday I believe. I would hope the Premier will say to the House, and therefore to the Province, what the rationale is, ..,hat the reason is behind this bit of fancy !ootvork, why there wu need for a change, why it ..,as needful to renege, to go back on his promise to the people of every part of this Province, 'in my own district, the people of Carbonear, the people here in St.

John's, a number of places who called me1 a couple, I s-ay to the minister, from Mount Pearl who called me last evening, ~opla around this Province generally who are concerned about the issue, who feel bt down by t.h• ia•ua and I ~nder1 if in light of what has happened in the past few days, the public knowledge now that government intends to pay only $500, I ~nder would the Premier indicate to the House what has happened? Have they run out of money? Was the promise made before the election, ..,ithout a full knowledge of the facts as to how much money this promise was going to cost~ 816

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 329 NM - 2 MR. SIMMONS: I Ul sure it can be candy-coated, I a& sure it can be explaine-d in gentle terms_, but it is going to take a lot of e:xpla~ning to explal.n to the tellow wno thought he was going to ga~ $1500 that he is only going to get $500' or to explain t(: the f~lp.., who thought he was going to get $1500 he is not going to get anything, not a cent.

I would hope that the Premier in the next hour or so in Comm1ttee, sometime before six,if he is so disposed, will explain to us if there has been some review of this rather unfortunate decision by government, a decision to renege on the promise of the Tory Party during the election. I would hope now that there will be some resolution of it.

I hope the Premier can stand and say, "Look, we did make a promise on the 18th. of June and we now want to keep that promise and we are going to see to it that every person who has got a home, who has built a first home or is buying a first home, who hae bought it since the 18th. of June," because that was ;.;hen the promise was made J and people made their decisions. And this is the point I would like to make to the Government House Leade.r 1 that people when they bear an announcement like this they do not deal in technicalities, they do not deal in questions like, "When will this come into effect?

Will it be the 1st. of August? Will it be the 1st. of September?" They automatically assume, and I believe rightly, Mr Chairman,· that if tl:e Leader of the Party which is also the Government of the Province makes a statement on June 18th., they fully assume that decisions they make, related to that announc:ement,after June 18th. will be affected by the announcement. They do not stop and say, "Now when will this come into effect?" The average person does not deal in those technicalities. He does not say, •1 better not buy the house today because it might not be until July lst., it may not be until August 1st.

And I say in all honesty to the 817

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 329 GH - 3 MR. SIMMONS: government, in all frankne•m, I believe the government has to tie its program to June 18tn. Or you might want to pl.ck some other date that is more convenittnt i:rOlll a Duoido:talo'ing standpoint, probably June 15th or something like that. ·~une 19_th _is somewhere past the middle of the month but pick a good bookkeeping date, "probably June 15th, but certainly no later than June 18th, and say to the people of the Province who in some cases arked their ballots on the buia of that particular commitment from the Tory party, say to them, Mlf you have purchased a house since June 18th or if you have a house which 81.8

July 26, 1979 'I'ape 330 EC- 1 MR... SIMHJNS 1 complete by June 18th - Dy June 18th, not August bt - then \li'e. ..,ill pay prolti.sed on Juna 18th4 I believe that is the on.ly- fair' ext.r~U~n, the. only fair inte.rpretation of the policy co=ait:ment ma.d.a l:Jy. the 'I'ory Puty hading up to Juna 18th, that the policy ouqht to come into affect - AN BON. MEMBER: A beautitul word4 MR.

SIM!tJNS' and than tell IDII.? '!u, YOuld you f.i.rui out what it means I thi.nk the only fair application of it is for the goverJlltdJlt to aay, as of June 18th the proqrUimll is into effect. '!hen you 'odll have to define, obviously, \li'hat percentage completion ought to apply - and I do not buy this buaine•• about it being only to floor level. I believe it should proviQe. th&t a house that is say len than 60 per cant or 65 par cent ooa:plete should qU&l.ify. And why do I say that? - for thb reaaon, because a. nW!Cer of people.

Yh~ they heard the announcatnant leading up to JW'le 18th, said, 1 I am going to qat $1,500 for the bouse. • 'lhey then ..,ent out and incurred nav expenditures that they woul.d not have incurred. 'I'hay said, 'Look, I have an extr& $1,500 I c.n spend on ay hous• now. 1 And thay vera plann.ing first juat to complettt the kitchen and perhaps the ona bedroom. And then they said, 'The.

Tory Government is goinq to give us a,SOO 110 I can coq'lbta the bedroom for the youngsters too.' They incurred additional expanses on the buia of an understanding that they ..,an going to get $1,500 from this 90vernttant. 'Iha government hav. reneged on this promise, but I have faith that perhaps they have clanged their mi..nda again in the lut fav days~ And I would hope tha Premier during the Committee: atage might tttl.l us and clarify a little further for us vhat tha goveJ:D.JMnt 'a real. intention is on this home ownership grant progrUUIWl. MR. CHAIRMAH: (Butt) '!he hen. the. member for ~U•. HR.

NEARY: Does the hon. the Premier ...-ish to Al1S\IIer soma of the - :fine, I vill yield~ The hon. the Premier. 81.9

July 26, 1979 Tap• 330 EC - 2 PREMIER PEOCFORD: Yes, :-tr .. Chairman, there vera a number of que.ationa. 'Ihe contract on• ia ona that the: Mini.eter of Jwotice {...'t. c--:te!'.hei!!!2=) ad.-!..--es5ed. hi:!tself to and there is acme .unde.:atandinq betw•en both sides. 'l'h• only two issues - I o:lverid most of the various divisions in my opening ra:at4rka unciar th• Uaute.nant-Governor'• astabl.iahment or under the Premier' a Oftica, wh•rever they u. right no'ft'.

And than b..l.k.ing ahout th• aa.larlu, the increase. is there aimply because there are a numbe.r of positions which had not hithartofore been paid out of the Premier'• Offica although they were in th• Premier's Office physically, are nov than. And the tiguna an Wo inflated in the s.n.aa that thtra are three vacancies there but there. ia a a.ala.xy pucel or unit in there tor those vacancies.

Of cour21e, I have indicated on a nuzab-.r of occuiona that I have baen trying to at.naml.ine tha Premi•r's Officea around the Province and will not be filling these vacancies. 'Ibe two iaauea brought up by lMlDbars today - one b..a.d. to do with Mr. cabot Ma.rt.in., who ia a senior policy advisor of the Prelllier'a, and whether that gentleman waa paid during the t.i.me tlat he vu a cand.idata for the Proqruaive Conaerv&tive PartY. of Nwfoundland. Mr. MArtin YrOta 1r1a on tn..t ~~.atter and requested a lean of Absena. 1 have the letter here, Mr.

Ol&i:rm.an: "I would naiqn 'III'f preaent position on th• data on vh.ic:h I tint took my seat in the House of Assembly. I viah permission to take llllave of ilbsanca without pay fer' tha period ccncern•d to run in th• _provincial ganer&l. election." And I acknowbdqed and accept.d that a..ffair, ac.d there iJI the copy of it al.l for anybody to ae•. On the othu ma.ttar that wu brought up by, I think, the me.rabar for Burgee - Bay d'Eapoir (Mr.

Simmons) on the fot1r111.r Pruz.i.e.r m.alc.inq a atat:.ament u it rel.ated to cert..ai.n mi..niatan who 'olere running in the laacienhip campaiqn, I do oat know what sbtamenta pa.rt.icularly that the muber ill referring to. Then w.u: an Order-in-<:ouneil paaaad which O..alt with .my u.m. that m.ini5ters were out of town, actinq ministers were appointed for that period of time th.&t thoaa m.inistars were out of town so that ai~g could occur in those dapa.rt:J~;e.nts and de.cUiona 820

July 26, 1979 Tape 330 EC - 3 PREMIER PEa:roRDt could be m.ade. So there has been no bru.c:h. of any lav or any rub or regulation u it relates to the payment o! mi.niatex:s du.rinq tha leade.rsh.ip cupa!.qn. It is ~ !.eli~. ~veb-:1~:! ancl the lll&y it ill supposed to be. So on those bto i.sauaa, the one brought up by the. IDUiber for L&Poll• (Hr. Nauy) u it relatad to Mr~ M.artin and. wh•ther h• got paid during the •l•ction, ha did not and th•re is docu:ae.nt.ation to prow: it. 821

July 26, 1979 Tape 331 PK - 1 Premier Peckford: And as it relates to the question of ministers during the Leadership Convention, everything was done legal and aboveboard and there is documentation to prove that which I will table as well, if members want me to. I think those are the two main i~sues. The other question is the open-door, closed-door policy that the bon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary)- my only answer to that, Mr. Chairman, from where I stand myself is that any person in St.

John's who passes by the Confederation Building in the mornings or in the evenings,or who comes upon the Premier's floor physically will attest to the way I operate~ And anybody who has known me since 19721 as a member or as a minister, can attest to the way I operate. !nd anybody who wants to see me will see me. I have them lined up three and four deep, or ten and fifteen deep sometimesJdown in the office. and I intend to try to see as many people as I can while I am the Premier ~ of the Province. And even further than that, Mr.

Chairman, I have indicated to the Cabinet and to members in the Public Service and will be doing so on a regular basis over the next two months, that not only should, you know, mail be answered promptly in all departments, but all public serJants in the building or who ~~rk for the government should always have a smile en their face and be courtesy to citizens as they walk into the Lobby of the Confederation Building. Sometimes, I know I did when I came into this building when I was an ordinary citizen and I went along to a counter to get something, or to ask for a map, it was, "What do you want today"?

It was almost, "What are you doing here as a taxpayer?" AN HON. MEMBER: Wondering out loud. PPLMIER PECKFORD: Yes,wondering out loud, what some citizen ~o owns a brick or some of the material in this building is doing here. And I always get very mad about those kinds of things and I am attempting now, ~~rough appropriate channels, but firmly, to indicate to everybody that we are here to serve the people of Newfoundland, and we must be courteous· and we must treat citizens and the electors in this Province with respect and 822

July 26, 1979 Tape 331 PK - 2 Premier Peckford: do what we can to assist them and to acco~~odate the concerns and the re~1ests that they have. SOME HON. ~~ERS: Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: I intend to continue that policy. SOME HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: And if we do not, responses to correspondence,and to telephone calls are not what they should be1 then somebody is going to have to answer for it and ! will see that they do. MR. CHAIRMAN (}1R.

BU'IT): The han. member for Lewisporte. l-'I'.R. ~*liTE: Seeing that we are getting it all out in the open and getting things straightened out 1 there are a couple of things in relation to the Premier's office that he alluded to last day when we discussed the estimates, which was TUesday, and that is the situation in central Newfoun~land. For the last couple of years I have had the shocking experience of seeing two Premiers offices fully staffed twenty miles apart, one in Grand Falls where there is- I think, there were three -employees. The Speaker 1 now,was an assistant to the Premier there.

I -~--~~--~~ ~ ~-- think there was also an assistant to a minister in the same office getting the same kind of salary and in Botwo~not very far from Grand Falls, twenty miles, there was another Premier's office manned by Mr. Din And those tt,.,·o gentlemen, the present Speaker and Mr. Din-!-!r. Din Billard became sort of-political organizers I would call them. I recall when the Twillingate by-election was on both the present Speaker and Mr. Billard were down to Twillingate organizing that by-election. When the Leadership Convention came up both gentlemen went to work on Mr. Doody's campaign for the leadership.

Yet 1 in Lewisporte,I was not even entitled to, you know, the government paying for an office that I could sit it and consequently had to do everything in my house in Lewisporte while I was there when the Legislature was not in session • So I found that very, very unfair in that $100,000 or $150,000 of goverr~ent money was being spent for government offices not thirty miles from me and two of them were located twenty miles apart while at the same time I was elected and was not even entitled to an office in the 823

July 26, 1979 Tape 331 IB-3 11R. W"HITE: district which I wanted and had asked for on a number of occasions. I tn~nk ~t very unrair - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! !M:ffi~·c2w~rn~I~TE~•c_ __ - and I would hope that the present Premier would change that kind of set-up. I do not mind if he wants government offices in Central Newfoundland, on the West Coast and the Avalon Peninsula, one in his district,which I imagine he will have. and I think he should have. So I would like for him to comment on that and to let us know in more specific terms what he plans to do about that situation. 'f I 824

\ Ju:ly 26, 1979 aR. CHAIRMAN~ (Butt) MR. S • NEARY 1 Tape No. 332 so - 1 The han. member for LaPoile. Unbss the hon. genU~ -wants to answer that I will yield agUn, Your Honour, but I hope it does: not happen again what happened before.But if tna Don. gentleman wants to answer, go ahead. AN HON. MEHBER: (Inaudible) MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. S • NEARY t Hr. Chairman, I want tt. thank the hen. gentleman for hia responding to my remarks about the open-door policy. I subscribe to that, Sir 1 and I congratl.llata the i.on, gentlemAn for at least trying.

I kmw it will not be possible to see e:veryb:ldy on the same day 1 scme people wll1 have to wait but I am sure if people wait long enough that they will get to see the OOn. tha Pramier and I think that 'that is the way it should be. Wa had that for t'o/enty-three years.

Apparently the formu :rremier thought that was a bit at a bcther and a bit of a nuisance so he slammed the door in people's faces and put up the barricade, Now, there are a.n awful all of assistants,, executive assistants, special a&si&tanta, secretaries and the like in that office and I hope the OOn. gentleman h4s told all of his staff down there that nobody but nobo:iy is to be barred from that office because they have been disciplined now 1 they have been brain­ washed.

The: 'Whole idea of coming into the eighth floor before the hon. gentleman took over was that 1£ you got past the first receptionist then you wera interrogated by the na:.c:t one and then by the time you got on to the third one you were starting to get a bit tired, and by the. time you got on to the fourth or fifth or sixth one you just felt like giving up, and saying, "Well, there is no way you can gat into ths Premie.r 1 s office". That was ths whole idea - discourage people from getting in.

I hope the h:ln. gentleman vlll tell his receptionist and the staff on the eighth floor that the door is open and they a.re oat to try to discourage anybody fran getting to see the bon. gentleman who wants to see him • 825

July 26, 1979 T~e No. 332 GU-2 fiR. NEARY' Now, as far as the public service havinq a happy face is concerned, I would suggeat to the hen. gentleman !hat t~ first pl"ce he starts to try to remedy this situation is with the metn]:)er for Stephenville (Kr. F. Stagg) who stood up. in this House last waek and threatened tha public service - openly, bLatantly threatened the public sarvica, the hon. member for step!lenville. So, I think the h::ln. the Premier should start Hrst by disciplining his own members. Then he might al!io ask the han. udnister for Social Services (Mr. T.

Hickey) tc wipe off the public record the fact that the hon. gentleman threatened the civil service wh&n he wa.s supporting the hon. the Premier in the l&adership convention. That should be rRmOved from the public record. Now, we are going to have a Point of Order, Sir. It will be a specious Point - I can almost forecast, Your Honcur - RR. BIO<EY, Point of Order. MR. NEARY: I can almost forecast that this is just going to be - HR. OlAIRMAN I order, pla&sa! The hon. gentleman, as long as he is here, Mr.

Chai.rma.n, the hen. gentlaman, you know, has wt le-arned to even shut hiJI mouth when Your Honour calls order, and he is the mastar of the rule-5 in the House. For record purposes, you know, I do not \dab to delay the proceadings, nor do I wish to be petty because I have been around for a long time and I have haarci a lot of this kind of jargon coming across £:rem the other side of tha House, but for record purposes because we are dealing \d. th a - HR,. CHA.1..RMAN 1 Yes, ccma to the point, please. Mr. Minister, coma to the point, please. MR.. Hlcn:Yt Well, Mr.

Ch4irma.n, the point is that there was no threat mada against the public service by me either __..---------~--~~---- -- ~----'-·-··~---- i.ns;ide or outside this House. It was a personal. statement, <il statement of policy which happens to be mine, and is in oo way connected or binding on the hen. the Premier. 826 "")

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 332 GH-3 t1 R. OiAIRMAN: I would like to remind the gentlemen that this is a difference of opinion. Hon. member fer Lapoile. MR. NEARY: !.U:. Chairman, my

interpretation of what the han. gentleman said at the leadership when he was supporting the han. the Premier, that if the hon. gentleman won the leadership, that he was going to gut out the public service • l-ias going to gut her out, that is what the hen. gentleman said. AN HON. MEMBER: But he did not become Premier. M.a. NEARY: well, then but he did not become Premier.

He took his fifty-odd votes whatever it was and he trans- ~\ \ ferred t."lem over to the l'Pn. gentleman who now occupies the Premier• s seat, and the Premier just told us that -,..e should all try to encourage happy faces in confederation Building. l1ell, Hr. Chairman, how can you ask the public service to smile and to look happy when they see ~~e member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) descending on them? How can they be happy and smile and look content when the hon. Minister of Social Services {Mr. T.

Hickey) has on the public record a statement that he would gut the public service and he was one of the gentlemen that supported the Premier, that he would gut her if he won. And how can the public service be happy and smile and be pleasant and wear their little buttons 'Happy Me' when the hen. member for Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) only last week - AN HON, l1EMBER: And this week. MR. NEARY: .. and this week issued a threat to the public service. Now, how does the hen. gentle.r:Lan plan on dealing with these people, with his a .... -n 827

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 333 GH-1 MR. NEARY: ministers and his own members1 The hen. gentleman has issued the warning to the senior civil servants, to the mJ.ddle upper~claas senior civil ::~t:.cvauL::., t.o tho lowo::l: .;crat..a ar.d told everybody they all had to be happy, and he forgot" ~to tel~ the most important people of all, his ministers and the backbenchers who are supporting his government. If the hen. gentleman has not done it privately or has not done it in writing with these han. gentlemen, perhaps now when I sit down, and I would be glad to take my seat now, and let the hen. gentleman react.

SOME RON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! HR. NEARY: Alright, if the hen. gentleman wants to react, I would be glad to sit down. But I want it to go out loud and clear that there is going to be no hanky-panky; there is going to be no instructions coming down from his ministers that they have to hire this one; they have to hire that friend; or they have to issue a permit to build a house down in OUter CoveJ or they have to issue a permit to build their summer residence on the Salmonier Une. I wish 1 had my list here with me.

I wish I had my list.or the helicopter pilot has to fly the minister down to Bonavista and put him right down beside his club. None of this sort of nonsense going on because that is the thing 1 that is the sort of thing t.hat makes the public service fro~ That is it. Rire on so and so's daughter, hire on so and so's son without competition. Fli~k people into jobs - straight political patronage~ MR. MO!:tGAN: (Inaudible) you ~e not the boss of the Oppositior (inaudible). MR.

NEARY: Straight political patronage~ And if you cannot get your own way to build a Summer house, issue instructions to the Crown Lands, "That rnan gets his pl!rlnit to build his house". And if you do not get your own way, sulk about it and ridicule the public service. Is that the type of thing the hen. gentleman is talking about doing away with, because that is the sort of thing that makes the public service disgruntled? MR. HICKEY: What sub-head are we on? 828

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 333 GH-2 MR. NEARY: We are on the 'Premier's Office', and the Premier just made a statement and I could not agree with him more, but he has to be a strong ~an to enforce it. He has to enforce it first of all with his own ministers and his own members,. peopLe who support his administration, and no more of this saying, "I am ~going to build a house down here in OUter Cove or wherever it is, and if I do not build it I will form a council down here and I will get my house built, But I will get ha.r built ; and you, Mr.

Metro Board, you better watch me now what I am going to do because it is going to be done." MR. HICta:Y: Who i~ doing all this? MR. NEARY: Is the bon. gentleman asking me? All the people who sat over there heard me make that statement. Why would the han. gentleman be the one to ask me the question? Why would it be the bon. ~entleman who took the bait and asked me the question? MR. HICKEY: curious. HR. NEARY: No, everybody else sat there in silence, except the han. gentleman. Does the hon. gentleman own any land down in that area? tom. HICKE'll MR. HEARY: Yes. He does.

Does the han. gentleman want to build a house down there? 1-m. HICKEY: Yes. MR. NEARYt Well, go on. You know, Mr. Chairman, I must be: psychic, Sir, that is the only thing I can see. I must be psychic. Well, was the han. gentleman turned - let me ask another question? Was the han. gentleman turned down by the Metro Board? MR. HICKEY1 Yes. MR. NEARY: And the hon. gentleman appealed it and lost his appeal? And then what did the hen. gentleman do? MR. HICKEY: What is illegal about that? 829

July 26, 1979 HR. NEARY: anything illegal about it. MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 333 GH-3 Nothing~ I did not say there was The only thing, the han. gentleman - I have not, Mr. Chai:man, the han. gentleman, Sirf is giving me information. MR. HICKEY: The han. gentleman makes things up and adds a little bit more to the facts. MR. NEARY: What have I made up, Mr. Chairman"? What have I made up?

I just asked the Premier if the hen. gentleman would stop his ministers from going in with the heavy hand into depart­ ments, crown corporations and agencies and laying down the law and saying, "If you do not do this, my God, I am going to have your job". That is the kind of thing the han. gentleman has to stop, the heavy­ handedness of his ministers. HR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: I do not know of anybody who does that. Well, did I say the han. - Mr. Chairman, the han. gentleman is interrupting - did I say that the han. gentleman did anything?

I do nat understand why it is the han. gentleman, Sir, out of all the people, 33 of them over there, that the han. gentleman should say, "You know, what is it you are talking about?" MR. SIMMONS: !t is not me, Lord. MR. HICKEY: Because I do not know any other ministers who are trying to. build a house in OUter Cove. MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: The han. gentleman might be surprised. Could the han. gentleman name a minister who is building a house in Outer Cove or trying, except myself? MR~ NEARY: wrong? MR. HICKEY: a heavy hand. MR.

NEARY: bit of advice, Did I say the han. gentleman did anything Thehon. gentleman said that I was using All I am doing, Sir, is issuing a little 830

July 26, 1979 MR. NE.ARl': gentla:man, th• Premier. MR.. FiiOZ"ll Tape 334 EC - 1 a. little bi.t of advice for the hon. Mr. Olaiman 1 I aee.m to h&va gotten to tha hon. gentleman for setae. rea.aon or other, Sir. Ia then aomethinq wrong? Ia the bon. g.ntlecan not fee.linq <otell? AN HON. HEHB£R: No, I alft feeling great Mr. NEAFCl: I will, sit down, Hr. Chairman, 1 will have a. few 1110ra verda to say .again shortly. But that is my advica to the Pre.aier if he wants to h.a.ve. the happy, &lldl.i.ng f&.ce.a in contadera.tion Building. So I hope the hon. gentle.m.an will heed W..t I just s&.id. Mlt.

CHAII!H.AN: {Butt) MR. HOOtER: 'nle hon. the llle..lr:ber for Port au Port. Mr. O:t..aim.an, I just Wanted to uk a faY que&tiorul following som words that I heard spoken. by rtty !riend and colleague from the district of Lewisporte {Mr. F. Whit.a). I believe tha.t the Nmbe.r for Levisporte was lllaking a point tlu.t the Pre.mi.er' s executiva uaistanU in certain parts of tha Province - vith wh.ich. I am not fudll.a.r - vera doing perhaps the jobs of M .. H.A..s or were a.uistinq M.H.A.a. Hy queation to th• Pruder is about the ue:e of the qoverrunent building~, both in Cornu Brook and in Grand Fall.s.

Now I know th&.t the Prem:lar's Office in Corner Brook hu: bean uaed by th.a ~t~S:mber for Bay of Is~da (M:r. Woodrow) a.lmost constantly, and I would expect that the meuber for Bay of IslAnds hu secretarial halp in t.n..t particular offica u well. I do know as vall tha.t the fermer member for St. George.' s - I am not talking about the past one but the one be.fore that - ha.cl an office. in Stephenvill• Creasing and then whe.n tha lut meuber for st.

Gaorqe 1 a, not the prase.nt one, became th• IDB!Ii:Jer, beC&.WI& that office vaa aet up then anci she knev about it, she vent to the qowrnment and they said, 'Yes, you can use it u wall. • What I ~ asking, Mr. Oai.rl:wl, ia whether ao111e JMIIi:lers in this House of Assembly who are tryi.nq to look attar their districts can b.ave utra he.lp ancl others not and whether the Premier's Offica in Cornar Brook can be used by, for inst.a.ncet, myself 83:1

July 26, 1979 Tape 334 EC - 2 HR. HODIER: or any other medlar from the wut Coast? f'low I expact that perhaps the member for Bay of Islands Zlllell!bers thare who probably want to be uaing it the.rDaalvas. aut I feel th.at if cart.Ai.n med:lers o! this Houaa of Assembly who ue tryinq to represent their districts and who have only sacntarial help or whatnot and the wua of telepbon•s and th.at sort of thing here in the Confederation Building but yet spend D:~St of the year outside, why cannot we, a. wall, have the same privilege? ALter all, Mr.

Chairman, we are representing districts and there are fifty-two diatricts in this Province, and I think that any me.mbar in th.is Hous• of Assembly should have tha right to represent that district with whatever toob or conveniences that .:ny other me:mb•r has. Whether a 100-lri::ler be on the government side or on the Opposition, he should certainly have the right tha.t if one maml:nu can make usa of an office in Corne-r Brook then another membar should hava an offica and secretarial help in Stephenville.

And I would like to ask the Premier just exactly wlat happara in these particular caaas and whether the same aort of a..rn.ngemant is prevalent in Grand Falls? MR. OlAIRMA!h (Butt) 1 PREMIER PECKFORD1 \ queations before too The hon. the Premier. I jwat want to ansver many paopla get up, Hr. Chairman. ~ a nwrber of ' First of all, the meri:ler for Lewi.sporte !Mr. F. White), b.U coame.nt.. as relatad to the Prellier•s Office in Central Nevfoundland.- .I tend to agree with his perception o! the situation. I am in the process of changing that. The present Speaker of the House {Mr.

Sim:ms) did have an office in Grand Fllls and there were tva other people. Up until a a:~nth or two ago then were thre• people in that office. As of now thar• are two and thera will not b• any more than two, and these are H.ra. Shea, ~ho will now be the dlie! pa.non there in the Premier's Office and motbar l.ady who acts in a aecretaria.l capacity. There hu been an office in Botwood for a nwrber of years. I de not intend to continue that. practice but I have not had an opportunity - ,. an in the proceea of 11tre&llllining it and trying to make aome changes and they have not all been made yet. 832

July 26, 1979 Tapa 334 EC- 3 PREMIER FECKFORD: I tend to aqraa with the ma:mbers for both LewU!porta (Mr. F. White) and Port au Port {Mre Hodder) en this }:IU.i...ut.. 4! bacA,U.uch-.b uu thllil <3U~13.rn.JI:Wut llid.i. a.L'd ~Oi..P'll to l;.f. ..41L.it:.l~d to cert&in privi.lagaa in certain areas of tha Province, vall, othar backbencher& ahould also have that privilege. In the c:a.ae ot tha tl1lllli:ler for Bay of Isl.l.nd.l (Mr.

Woodrow) , for .1. couple of yaa.rs tht muber tor Bay of Ial&.nda had additionAl responal..bllitiea u the fora~~r Prellder 1 a usUtant then a.nd it wu in tha.t capacity that ha used the offiee, not in hJJ capacity a.a the member tor Bay of Ialanda. aut I .agree vith ·833

July 26, 1979 Tape 335 IB-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: the han. member wholeheartedly that you cannot make chalk of one and ch~ese of the o~e~. Ycc c~~not,just because you are the party in powe~ use government offices for backbenchers to further their own political interests in their particular districts. If they have special duties, special responsibilies by government fine and dandy, they use it for those purposes and nobody can argue with that.

That is fine but they cannot do it otherwise, in my view,and hence I was not aware of the situation in Stephenville Crossing 1 I did not know there was such an office until the hen. member just brought it to my attention. What I intend to do and am in the process of doing,is trying to streamline, keep the positions, one or two like in Grand Falls 1 that will be the Central Newfoundland office. So there will be that presence there. For example, in the Grand Falls office there now, if the ~mber for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight) wants to have a meeting in windsor, or some people from Windsor and he does not have a place to use, I offer the han. member or any other han. members on the opposite side the right to go and u~e that office - I will have to put that in some kind of letter so that you will not have any problems with the staff or SOillething- to us:e that office there or any other government office in that building for that purpose, for those meetings which have. to do with your job as a MHA.

I see nothing wrong with that and would very much extend ~~e same courtesy to other members in that area, either in Corner Brook or Grand Falls or wherev~r else we have buildings. AN BON. MEMBERt (Inaudible). PREMIER PECKFOFDl Yes, you will get into that. MR. F. RCWE: (Inaudible). PRRMIER PECKFORD: Well I am just saying I do not have a building in Whitbourne yet and so therefore I might not be able to help the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde {Mr. F. Rcwe).

But all I am saying is where there are existing Cuildings I believe that if there is spaceJ as, for example,in Grand Falls, ~~e Premier's office where there is a 834

July 26, 1979 Tape 335 IB-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: big office, orsome room and you need to have a meeting, well then any member of the House, in my view, can use that space and I 'flill be prepared to make it available in that way. But the whole question of staff. There will be a Grand Falls office because there is a building there and there is an office there and there are two people on staff who can do sane valuable work for people, And,hopefully,after the s·ouse closes,as we move around the Province with cabinet meetings and so onJwe will use it mora extensively than it has been in the past.

And the same way in Corner Brook. I do not intend to extend it any further at this time because ~ are in a restraint period. That is number one reasons. Number two, I do not know if it is wise or not to do so. I will have to think about it and watch to see how those two offices work before I would think about expanding it any further. But the third point I would like to make on that because the member for Lewisporte (Mr.

White) has on many occasions expressed some views about members and their districts, as I think most m@Inbers are aware, there is a proposal which I think is going to be adopted by both sides as it relates to-when we get to legislative - the present financial renumeraticn to members, and 'the propcsal that I put before the Leader of the Opposition was one, a percentage increase of a renumeration in line with everybody else in the public service.

But, and more importantly, an independant three·m.an group, committee, commission, I Co not care what you "'ant to call it and we all agree on who tho&a three natru!s should be, together ..,ill study from now until the end of october the whole condition of MHAs, their financial renuneration, the condition of their district!5 1 if you will 1 in a sense of, should they all have an office or ~t and bring in a report to us and that independent report then, the recommendations can be implemented because it is totally out of the purview of us doing something selflessly for our-salves and it is quite credible in the eyes of the people ~om we serve.

And that is the way I would like to do it. And if that commission comes in with the recommendation to have offices for members in their districts) 835

July 26, 1979 Tape 335 IE-3 PREMIER PEClCFORD t I think it might be a good move to go that way. But in the absence of that being there 1 am quite free to provide to the people on the West Coast in the Sir Richard Squires Building, in the pr9vincial building at Grand Falls, members on both sides of the House, bac~enchers and so on the opportunity to use those facilities. Grand Falls will continue to have a Premier's office with two people.

There are now two people in Corner Brook and that will continue. otherwise 1it will become very streamlined and very accountable in writing, the number of phone calls, the number of letters, what they are actually doing. And if it shown that they are not doing anything then they are no longer going to be working. MR. WHITE: What about Springdale? PREMIER PECKFORD: At Springdale in my own district; I do not know what I am going to do there yet. I have been delaying making a de-cision on that for obvillUS reasons. It does not look very good, I do not know how to handle that. SCME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 836

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 336 SD - l MR. CHAI.RMAN t (Butt) Tha hon. member for La'Jisporte. MR. F. WHI'I'E t I just ... antad to ask one: or two questions Premier has just talked about and that is in ""'' _relative to 'Jhat the \connection with Mr. Billard. I would li.ke to ask him wh4t happens to Mr. Billard wOO is no.,.. in Botwood, Mr. Din Billard'l And I would also .. and I do not want to be nit-picking in this requd but I would also lika to know if Mr.

Billard was pa.id while he WA£1 running my opponent 1 s catq;~aign this t.i.n:le around in Lewisport& district.'l ae was a full-time campaign lllanaqar there and I just worxiered if he was still being paid by tha govarn::o.ant while that activity was taking ,?lace? And the same thing would apply to tha present Speaky and Mr. Bi.llard during the leader~hip campaign. The hen. the Premier. i PREM!ER PEo:.FORD: Mr.

Cha.lrman, on both counts they did get a leave of a.bsence in writing bec.ause I remember distinctly, e~pecially in the casu of the provincial. election, I remQ.m.bu distinctly that the: letter was communicated and I was also aware of it in the leaderlihip because I made it m'f business to find out bec&use I was -one of the opponents of whom he was speaking. MR. WHITE: (Inaudible\ Mr. Billard. P REMI.ER PECKFORD t A good question and I hava tc talk - I think Mr. Billard is presantly on h:Jliday and I am going to b\1 discussing the matter with him wha.n he cc::m&a back off b:lliday. MR. F. STAGG1 MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Stephenville. HR. F. STAGG: Thank :{au, Mr. Ota.i..rlna.n. My netoe:si.a y over there is trying to upstaga me again. I think we are on the Prem.iar's office. This is the Head of expenditure we are on. There have been some irrelevancies, one of which was the irrelevancy broug ,t up by my colle4gue from t.aPolle (Mr. S. Neary) concerning whether the Premier is going to discipline his ~embers or he is going to crack the 837

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 336 so - 2 MR. F. STAGG: whip or whatever and ha alluded to my threateni.n9 the public servica. That is a question of in't.erpre­ tation, so I would like to set the record straight for, I think, the fourth time. :iy dis&atiBfaction with tha public service i.!i directly as it relates to their activities in the Stephenville area and that Stephenville historically has ~en an area. that has been approached very cautiously by both the public service and politicans.

Thare have been a_few disasters in the Stephenville area conmencing in 1966 when the then Premier, that is two Premiers ago, brought in forty-five industries rone of which came to fn..ition and then a linerboard mill which was a debacle. And it is my contlll!ntion that the difficulties that were surrourding these industries have permeated the mentality ot: the public service and the things that are proposed for tha Stephenville area are met with a certain negative reaction. So,it is that mentality that I am attackit.g and I will continue to attack •.

I will not attack individuals because I realize bow it has come about a.nd I thank the bon. member for giving me the opportunit'J to say it again in front of soma of my constituent:s.which, certainly is a. wRlcome: opportunity. As far aa the negative attitude in the public service is concernad, I say it is there and I say it has to change. I al.i:c say that it is possible that there is a negative attitude among some political figures in ciur Province, that may be on toth sides of the Hol.lSe. It is my job to change it and that is what I wu elected for and that is what I ints:nd to do.

But the hon. member to point me out a5 sosne. kind of oqre wOO is out witch hunting J that is not what it is. I am represent!~ my district which I intend to do and I intend to do it to the best of my abllity which I have done for some considerable ti.ma now. And tha hon. me.m.ber 1 s dubious tactic of trying to paint others as he probably is hi:nseli, is not going to work. HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. 838

July 26, 1979 Tapa No. 336 SD - 3 HR. CHAIBMAN: (Butt) Ordar, please! I have been a~vised by the Speaker that thara are no items for the Lata Show this RV&ning. The hon. member for L4Ppile. MR. S.. NEARY : Mr. Chairma.n, I am not sura if I heard the hen. member for Stephenville (Hr. F. Stagg) conectly. I am not sure, Sir, if I - I could not believe what I was hearing.. The hen. gentleman says that ha was elected to try to corract the mentality and tha attitude of tha public Serv'ice in Stephenville, that is one of the reasons why the hen. gentleman was elected. Did the Prem.ier hear that statement?

The han. gentleman IZIU.St have quivered and shaked in his seat il he did. !1r. Cha..irman, the hon. gentleman was not elected for that purposa. Thlilr& are other people wOO are appointed for that purpose.. And. if the hon. gentlama.n has any grievances or any compla.int5 or any beefs with the public service then he should go through the proper channels and not to try to atte:::pt to discipline the public service in StephenvUle himself as he juat said he intended. to do. That is one o! the - HR.. F. STAGG: Point of Order, Mr. Chairman. It is not the public service in Stephenville I am talkinq al::XJut. MR..

S • NEARY: electad -· not MR. Oi.AIRMAN I MR., SntMONS: The hon. gentlem.an said, •r was order, please! 'Steve', do not for9et he did straighten out the Premier, he says, ~on March the 17th". Remember on television? MR. CHAIRMAN ' Continue. MR. S.. NEA.RY l Mr. Chai..rman, I raised the matter and then the ron. gentleman, Sir, the hon. genUaman spends all of his time on his fa-et not talking al:out the Premier• s salary and the Premier's opinion and the Premier's attitude but decides to unleash an attack on me when we are debating th11 Premie.r's sala.xy. It is not 839

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 336 SO - 4 MR. s. NEARY; my salary they are debating, I am not Premier,. I 1o.0uld like to ba Premier but I am not. The bon. gentleman 1 s attention should be directed to that side of the f!ou.sa. We are diScussing 02-Dl, the Premier's salazy, and not unleasl].~ ft persana.l vendetta and an attack on 100 because I have raised certain mati:.ers in reacting to a statement that the bon. the Premier ha.d ma.dliil a few ll:IOO.ents ago when he said that 840

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 337 GH-1 MIL NEARY: everybody in the public service must be happy, must be smiling, must have a happy face. Well, Sir, if you hav~ ti~ salary dOd you have the fringe ben~fiea and you have th@ hours of work and you have the working conditions and you ha'(~ a good minister who will not try to ride roughshod over you, who will" not say, "If I cannot get a cabin built on the Salmonier Line because there is a freeze on down there, a freez@ on the Salmonier Line on building Summer cabins, but if I am minister" - Let us say, Mr.

Chairman, for argument's sake now, just for argument's sake, that I am minister of Municipal Affairs - AN HON. MEMBER1 MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). No, Municipal Affairs, that !3 a good heavy department, and I want to build a cabin on the Sal.monier Line and there is a freeze on and I cannot get the permit, well I will say, "I am going to get it anyway because I am minister of Municipal Affaixsn, and the next thing you know, lo and behold, I got the permit, up goes the cabin, everybody else turned down. Now, how would you expect, Mr.

Chairman, I ask Your Honour, how would you expect the public service, especially those who know that there was a bit of underhanded work and a bit of skulduggery went on in getting that kind of a peonit -ho"' would Your Honour react to that if Your Honour was a public servant in the Department of Land and Forests, and go to your colleague and say, "Look, Mr. Ministe::::-, as your colleague I have been turned down. I cannot have my permit because there is a freeze on. Will you get me the permit?" And the minister says, "Yes, I will get it for you, here it is.

We are not paying any attention tc the public service, go out and build yow: cabin and enjoy yourself.." tlow,is that the way to make the public service happy and make them all smile, is that the 01ay to do it? Does Your Honour think that these are all hypothetical cases I am using. I could go on, Sir, I have a list down in my office the length of the Chamber here. I did not 841.

July 26, 1979 Tape No. 337 GH-2 MR. NEARY: know this was coming up this afternoon. I did not know the han. the Premier was going to ask everybody to go around Confederation Building ·.dtb ~ .rs.il.a ::;;:. ~~.z.ir !"o.cc~ J.r.C !celt happy. I did not know he was going to raise that, because if I did I would have brought up a number of classic examples of where ministers in a highhanded way orlth a heavy hand have gone in and threatened public servants in their own departments and in other departments and in Crown corporations and in agencies of the government - just sulking, wanted to get their own way. And, Mr.

Chairman, let us talk about the land freeze h~re in St. John's East, or in the greater St. John's area, not in St. John's East although that would be a good one form~ to talk about in st. John's East Extern, but I am not gains to talk about that- the land freeze.

Is my han. friend aware, who wants the public service to be happy and smiling all the time, is my han. friend aware that some of his ministers who are still - I am not talking about the past, I am talking about the born-again regime, the born-again government, who still have some of these minist~rs sitting an the benches, who have said, "Look, my son, if you \~~ant that freeze - if you want to build a house, I will see that the fr~eze is lifted~ and the freeze has been lifted in certain cases the houses have been built and no permit given yet and no action taken either.

Is that the way to make the public service happy and have a nice little pleasant smile on their faces? I notice the han. gentleman when he was reacting to comments from this side of the House deliberately steeredaway from my comments that I had made pr~viously, when I asked the han. gentleman if the han. gentleman was going to start with his own cabinet, with his own ministers, and say, "No more of this bulldozing the public service araund 1 no more hiring so and sa's son or sa and so's daughter} go through the public service the same as everybody else. No 842

July 26, 1979 Tape 338 IB-1 HR. NEARY: more of this promoting on the basis of what society you belong to or whose inlaw you are, no mor@ of that foolish nonsense. Is that what the han. gentleman means when he says that the public seryice will be happy, should be happy and should be smiling? Because if that is what the hen. gentleman means then he has my backing and my support and my blessing. But it is going to take a strong Premier to do it.

And the first tiJ:ne that a minister steps out of lineJwho does not conform to that kind of clean, decent politics, the first time he steps out of line he should get the boot as an example to his colleagues. That is the kind of thin9- now we are getting somewhere. If we stay on the Premier's salary long enough I tell you we are goi~g to get somewhere this afternoon. It has been very worthwhile so far.

The bon. gentleman told us a few moments ago that we are going to get an independent commission to look at member's salaries, their expenses and their allowances and whether or not they should have district office~ - yes? PREMIER PECKFORD: That is not new. (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: I know it is not ne\to' but 1I mean1I commend the han. gentleman for it because I think it is a good idea, not that I want to get an increase-r could stand one-~ut I think it is the right route to take. It is the right way to go. Do it clean. AN BON. MEMBER: You could send it back. MR. NEARY1 I would not be like the han. member far St.

John's North (Mr. J. carter), I would not send it back. I would not be that hypocritical. The han. gentleman must r@ally have had pangs of conscience when he did that. And judging by his track record and his attendance in the Rouse, now I know why he sent it bacY - that is the increase. But, M..r. Chairman, I would like to have the Premier's reaction to ~y few remarks about, how you get that pleasant look, that happy face and that pleasant smile in the public service and when you walk through Confederation Building it is heaven on earthf Everybody is happy!

AnC everybody in the Bouse of Assembly is so happy that you feel like going over and grabbing the member for Humber 843

July 26, 1979 Tape 338 IB-2 MR. NEARY: Eas't {_M.s. Verge) and waltzing her around the floor. Everybody is happyl But t..~e onlt· w;;.y you :;:an ~ ever:,"!:cC.y !'..i!ppy iz <:-::: ~t~rt !!.t the top and do away with the iron heels and do away with this idea of threatening a public servant if you cannot get your own way and sulking and then issuing instructions cont.ra.4y to the law. Mr. Chairman, if I wanted to I could name names in this House. '!hat just reminded me of something. The han. former Premier (Mr.

Moores) - we are on the Premier's salary - the former Premier, not the former former Premier, the former Premier reacting to a few remarks I made in this House yesterday said that I was crazy. Well 1 if the hon. gentleman wants

chapter in verse, if the han. gentleman wants documents and witnesses I will be glad to provide them, would be very happy to, about th~ EPA takeover and the Linerboard Mill and the renting of space down at Atlantic Place. And when I get on my next ten minutes, Sir, I have a few questions I want to put to the han. gentleman about the home on the hill, Mount Scio house, not in a critical way, not criticizing the hon. gentleman because the han. gentlemanJI believe. has been criticized enough and made a little bit of a goof. That was the first blunder.

I did not fan the fire because I figured the hem. gentleman was: smarting enough under the criticism he was getting anyway. But I do have a few questions about that house that I want to ask and a few questions about .some of the decisions that were made by the former Premier, when the han. gentleman told us before the House was resolved that he was reviewing certain decisions made by the former Premier. Well, I want to try to find out what thes€' orders- in-council were, the final days. '!1l.e han. the Premier.

PREMIER PEOCFORD: There has been a wide-ranging di9cussion, some of it not too relevant to, I guess, the Premier's office. Some of the matters that the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is now raising will not really be relevant to this aspect of it but will be, I guess, under Public Works and other subheads which will come up. 844

July 26, 1979 Tapa 339 EC- 1 PFIEMlER PECXFORD t And I understand that there are questiolUI on the Order Paper deali.ng ..,ith SON of tha matters that the h..)r,. ~r ju.t.- =ai~>!. The only thing I -..,ot:.ld like to ra:~pond to ncnt very bristly, Hr.

OJ. airman, is sillply that in the 'tlbo:l~ -businua of revieving the public aervice and putting a free:e on the public service, on hirings and trying to determine tha priorities of dep.utments vb.are additional staff a.re needed and trying to make the gove:rn.me.nt 1110ra efficient and the departments more efticiant, I think a part of that whale progrllllmll!l, a part of that whole policy, a part of that whole a:~ncept, ;rust be that people rzrust be at least nlatively happy at ..,hat they are doin9, and not only that, they must recoqn.i.ze - and I think if soll'lebody gets b.uboured in this building very long in the bcnlala of the buraaucracy iltld the labyrinth of paper \rih.ich one can find in the eata.COZI'Cia of the ground floor of the Confederation Building, I gu.us a.fta.r a number of years it can become a rather gray, dull place And one can gat insulated froa tha people out.sida vho really ha.ve a tiny, little problem about getting a. birth certificate or about qatting so1111 other th.inq through the ayate.m.

And being an outport ltlelllber, Mr. Ol.&i:r11Wl, and having to go through that myself - I can remember, u a uttar of fact, Mr. Ol.aiOIW'l, in 1973 I think I spent - oh, I do not know .. a week and a hal.t or two ..,ee..ks d.cNn in the - well, the Crown Lands .., ... on the ground floor than, tha Registry, and I spent a.lb:lst thre• weU.S down in Crolom Ullds in behind the co\mter, just bulled J'.!'f ..,.y in behind the counter 1 going through pilu of !ilea lookinq for the D..U~e of my constituant ..,ho ..,u in tho pile and. t.ak.inq th• file: out and putti.nq it on top to insure that it :Ugh t ge. t O)naide.re