·,;oL. ?RE.LI:1I~lA..l:l..Y UNEDITED :'P.MJSC!U?T 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.~. THCRSDAY, :tCV'EMBER 3, 19~9 ~lO. 26

::cve~J:ler 3, 1979 Tape ~-Io. 942 ~1H - 1 The :louse :::et at 3:00 ? . :-1. :-:r. Speaker in the Chair. Crder, :9lease! The ':'.on.

Leader of ::he Cpposit.!.::m. >S • .;A.;1ESCN: hen. t..'1e ?remier. :i::t view :::.f the First Hinisters' :.teeting 1 which is <::o :::onveyed ':o the ?remier the proJ?osals l.ikelJ ':o !Je C:.iscussed at ':hat meeting and,if such is ~~e case, is the ?~emier ~n a pcsi~icn to indicste ::o ::he ~ouse at :..."lis -:ir::e just exactly ·<~hat ;osition he is .!..ikely -:c be taking 'Nith regard to pr::Jposed oil price increases,and is his pcs.!J:ion goi::g to l:e that indeed insofar as ',o~e !..n -:.':lis ?::ovince are c:::oncer:1ed ::."'lat: oil ;r:!.ce i::cre;ases are qoir:g ':8 !Je an ex~rernel:r seve~e ;,ards~i? ::a our ;::eople, par;:icula.::ly during ':he coming .l.n :.::.e ?resent for:nula ·,.-hic::h '#as negotiated ;;erne ':l.:rte :1.go and ~o 'Nhich -::his ?rovince was a par":J?

The nor .. <:he ?rer:tier. -:r.:_:osi-.:icn :or his quest.:.on. !here are a :::u:<'.ber .:;,;: alterna-:ive 2384

'!'?>.PS ~0. 943 ?FE;,1IER ?EC::?CPD: :=nd on :Iew::oundland in parc.icular, a:: any inc:::'ease ·~~ill be substam:ial and ::hat we ~:ill want co see in any ki:1d of t_:Josi<.:icn that we •-<~ill be put::ing f?rward t':'.ac: area well looked a::::er before ve ::auld agree to any substantial chanses f:::-om ::he ;resent. :1.-rt. D. J;\;1!ESC!i: ;:, suppl.;.:nentary, >1r. Speaker. :1R. SPSP.JG:R (SI.V-'1Sl: A supplementary, ':he hon. :eader cf ~he Opposition.

I find. it, to say the least, surprisint;,t.his teing 7hursday and the meeting being on the coming weekend 1 that :::!"le gcver::.:::ent does not have a fir=~ position co ;;ut f::>r..:ard. : find. it doubly so and ! hope t~is is not rhetorical,~.

Speaker, because 0f statements ~ade by t~e ?remier in which he said, and ! believe : am cruo<:.ing :.L"';''. correctly, t~at he tended to side wit!1 ?articular ly the ?rcvi:1ce :::!'.e f..lberta •,;hich is seekir:g :najor increases. : !Jelieve he q".Jali::::i;;d l.t: :::o scme degree !:Jy saying ':;;orr.e ::ushioning effect was bui:!.::: ir:t:c the !::r;;;ula. • But what ! '..:auld like to ask :;,s a spec.ific question new is ·..;:,_ether or net it is ant:!.CiFated :::y the ?remie::: :::-,at the :neet:ing on Monday or '::':lesday, or it may go both Cays, is ;oing co be 3. def:.nit.ive met'.!tir.g, is it an .zxplcratcry meeting and wi:l 'Ne, in !'act, in this House and presu:na:tly across ::::-.e ?rovince, f:ave an op;;or-:::unit::• ':.::J :!.earn l::·ef:lre ic is i:1 fait. accc:mr;:li '.1ell, ;.tr. s;:eaker, : cannot 1.::form -.::,.e :,eade.:r of th0 ::r;:ositicn ·,..·het:i1er the mee-:i:tg will !::e defini::ive or :~or:, it tas net: be~n :'1eld yet .. :md I -:hir,k that ti":e :r:ost opti::1istic expectations !:::y ':he ?!'i:nt:: >1i:1i2!:cr sr.d cthe:: ;:ecple ac:::oss the country •..:cu:d te t!:a-.: scn:etl1ing :!efinit:..•Je ·.-~:.::_ -::orne cut: o£ -::C.e :neet:ing. ;~·hether, in f:lC':, ':hat ·11ill ?ccu::: ::r not: o::!c net :c-,cw; r ::io ::ot ~new if a:;ybcdy f:t:cws. : am sorry ':C hear that ':he Leader ::£ t:!.1e 2385

~JCVE:-!EEP. 3, 1979 "!.'APE ~!0 943 DH - ?P£:-!!:SR PEC:<FORD: s<::aternent:s in ::he press ty some to say that i.e is only exploratory, by ethers to say ':hat we 3hould :-,ave scme definitive agree."nent out of it . .30 there is nothing !:cr sure about :'lcnday's :neet.l.ng and 'Hhether,in fact,we will have an agree:nent on enersy _?ricing or :-.ct. 3ut r can 3.ssure <:-he Leader of the -'Jppcsition t~at: t;:;.e ?r::wince •,;ill be takir.;;: an aggressive anC. force::ul stand there and •,;e ::ope to be able to put toqether a number ::~£ realistic and creative purposals far t!ie F'irst >Enisters. r;e are ::ot just qoing to go to the Z386

Tape ~lo. 944 ?.H-1 ~!ER ?E~~?o?n: meeting in a reac~ive situation but •.;e are going t:.o go •:.here . ..,ith concre~e proposals en ~ow we see the ~~ing moving over the nex~ n~~ber of years. ~JL J)'l._"l.!ESCN: :'\ further supplementary. ~?.. SFSAF:.E?.: (Si:::ms) A ~ur~~er supplementa~f. ~e hen. Leader of the Opposition. :-tR. JA..'HESCN: ~ell, Mr.

Speaker, wi~~out in ~~e least teing arg~~entative,~y surprise comes from the variety of statements t:.l'J.at have been :nacie in ':..~e fu!::lic press. ::;: have viewed the very photogenic ?remier on television on numerous occasions in ~~e last weeks in .,..hich he has said that he is disposed to agree with the premier of Al:!:e.::-ta a.'1.d to oppose tJ1e position of t..l-,.e premier of Cntario. ;;s I understand it, the posi~ion of ~~e premier of Alber~a is ~hat ~e wants to see a rapid rise in oil prices.

The argument being put for~ard by :ntario is ~uite ~~e ccnt.::-arJ. 'Nhat I a~ asking the Premier is, is he still of t.l-,.e vie....- •Hhic.~ I have heard him express - and this is not obviously the point to C.ebate the wisdom or ot..~er,....ise of that view- hut is he of ~~e view that in fact a rapid escalation in oi! prices to something close to world prices is the desirable route for Canada to follow and is that t..,e statement ~,at he will be ~aking,or part of the staterner.t tha':: he •Nill l::e :naking on :-tonciay? ~_R. SFEi\KER: The hen. t..,~ ?remier. ??E!1IE?. ?!CY.FOED: ~r.

Speaker, it is the first: time that I have been called photogenic and ! ~~ank the hen. Leader of t..~e Cpposition fer ~~at sup~osed comment and compliment. Seccndly 1 cn the question, ! am not sure whether t..~e premier cf Alber~a has scggestecl a rapid rise to world prices. ! ~hink ~~e premier of Alberta has talked about a rise to ~orld prices. I ~,ink that he is fairly flexible en ~ow quickly that can get to the Chicago price or the world price.

So I do not know if the conce;:t of the quickness or the rapidit:y cf it '.tas in t.,e Premier of Alberta's statement. ! have said en a number of occasions, as the Leader of t..b.e Cppcsition acc..1rately ;oints out, that I think ,.,.e :ta'.Te to ~e realistic in t:;.is :::cunt.:-y and some movement '..lpwarC.s is al.~ost

~ovember 8 1 19-79 Tape No. 944 AH-2 unavoidable. The question is the degree ~o ~hi~~ that ~ill take ?lace, hew many years, how quickly, whether some formula can be worked out and. how ve can, with the additional revenue that will be for~~corning to the ?ederal Treasury in other means ensure ~~at the poorer parts of Canada can be well ?rotected from ~~e increase so t..!;at there is a fairness in ':..'"'.e whole system. There are many, many other parts of our position. That is why! indicated at ~~e outset, ~~.

Speaker, that '"'e are st:.ill going through our ~otal position because ~e want to put a proposal on '.:he table at the First :-!inisters' Conference and there are many, many other principles involved besides the two just vaguely referred to my me a few minutes ago. !"!R. JA.I.t!ESCN: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAK::::Ft: (Simms) A final supplementarf. The ~on. Leader of ~~~ Opposition. 2388

::over.ber 3, 1979 Tape 345 EC - l :;tell, :!r.

Speaker, one final :::.oc• . ..t<T.ents t:..'l.at have ::een submit-tee! in t."',e last few days, since we 3re :or 3-xa;::ple, !)f scr.:ething :~f t.'"le orCer of :...":irty cents a gallon and various ot:.!'.er people have put :or.,rard other proposals; :.'ley are ::.oc :or t.'1e Government of Canada - has the Government of :~e'NfoundlanC askeC itself or :::alc:ilated •..that t.'1e ir.;pact on consun:ers is of t.".ese •Ja.rious proposals? 'r;"hat ! would like to k.n.ow is surely it is legiti~ate on t.>:e part of net:. only ':..'l.e Jppcsition Cut :.~e people of !:..'lis ?rcvince ':O k."lcw •,.;hethe:r it is seventeen cents a gallon at t.."le ?U..-:lp, whet:.'l.cr we are locking at $1.00 gasoline "::ly 1981, or indeed, · . .;hat is going ::.o happen t..'lis :'iir:.te::-. :-:-.esa ==-r:nulae ha·.re been, .:..::. -:ac-::., ::.:-. l:he ;;u:;lic dornal.:-. for ;;e•Jeral ::".cr,::..hs now.

They have not =orne, as I saiC, :~m cast:.al sct.:rces but f:-or:1. ::..he :-lir.i.s-:.er of F.:..::.::..:-.ce :;.r.C inc:-ease,or ·.v!:a-::.eve::- ::....".e i::.crease in ;oinq to :.::e,i.:J. ::...."le ::as-::. of li.•.r:..ng is c::-ucial

~;ove::-.ber 8, 1979 Ta;;:e 945 :::c - 2 ? ?!:HIS?. ?£C.KFO?.D: scenarios ~~at are being proposed as ,?cssil:Jle alter.-:ati ws to tre ::onsidered on :1onCay and <te are goJ..ng tl~r=:ugit :...'1ose s::;eci£ic :mes new to 9et -.. nat the ir..tJac-cs •,.;ill be sc that ;.~e can • ::-.ore cl!!arly Cefir.e a C.e.finiti•J'e ;;osition :or >~onday. Xe iave gone :...--.roug;t ::o~s out at ~'1e oc...'1er end a£ter one sees o':...'1er negotia~icns going on. ?rir::e ~tir.iste: star-ed tal~ing ~ c...lte ot-'1er First ;-,!in.l..sters abcu;: :.::, tltey ·..-ere saying cartai:1 -:.'lings, and no-...-, of course, after ':.aL~ing to .. 2390

:-love:r..ber a, 1979 Tape :lo. 946 SD - 1 ??..E11IER ?EC.K.FORD: scenarios cnange. 3ut we new have a docUPent trdc arrived yesterday on which we are going ~~rough the various scenarios co see what the impact would te on the ~ewioundalnd consumer and there£ore ~~at will, in large ~easure, determin~ the kind of response t:..'tac we '"'l.ll ::ave a..!".d tte ~inci of proposl.t.ion that. '"'e will put. for,;ard ~n >!anday. :'.R, JAMIESON: ~ay I be permitted one final supple:menc.:~.ry, .1r. speaker? :.m. SPEAY-.ER: (:1r, Si.:nms) I ~a ~at see any o~~er ~ember st.andir.g. The han. Leader of ~i.e Opposition. :.tR.

JA.'UESON: This is a :nat:.t:.er JUSt for clar.lfication. Wa I underst.ar~ from ~~e han. ~~e Premier :hat. ~ere is now in front of h~,as a first minister and the other first :ninisters, a specific single feceral proposal wit.~ regard to oil pri=ing? Is ':.hat c..'1e proper conclusion for :ne t.o draw from ·,;nat has J:een said and is it. now a question of t..'1e federal gaverr •. :ne.'1t having put to the hen. :.he Premier t.b.eir posit..ion and are ~~ey asking !or a response? !s that the :osition?

Because .lt.. aces, it appears t.o :ne, change things quite substantially from '"'nat has been the case up t.o ;,cw, The non. ~~e ?:r~ier. :-tr. Speaker, thar. is not <::.he situation. There is a pa::kage of alternative proposals wni::h '"ill be a Casl.s :or disc'..l:SS.lcn at ::.he :!onday's ~ee~ng a."l.d di:ec<::..:..ons ~hie:: ::i-.e !ede:ral :;overnment t..'1in~ are realisci:: :J.t tnis t.i:ne.

And t..'lere are a whole range of t.:tem but:. they are in a package, a document, ::!i.at was sent ::o all ':l-,e ?irs~ :Cnlst.ers of :::anada as a st.art..ing ?Oint. :.o Cegin our posit.i.ons as ::he 2i:st :1inlst.er3 as we ent.er t:he ::~,;;et:ing on :1or.day. auc it .ls a d.lSC'.lssion doc'.llllenc as far as ! :r.~ersunci it: a.nci,as far as : ur.cierstand, t:he o~'ler first. :1iniso::ers :;er:::eiv;:; i.:: as t:ei.ng a l.J.<..:nchi:tg ;;ad ::-om ·,;hic!l. w.:..ll. :~·e have some ba::;i::; now t:o -...'Ork around o::-.ose fcur or !ive <llt.err:atives. ;..-_q_. 5 • NEARY : A supple..':H::!nt:ary ;;:uest.:.on, :-tr.

Speaker. :1R. ;5?£;,_iCE:t: The :.On. ::1e:nbe: :or ::..a.?o.lle,

:lcvember 8, 1979 Tape :~o. 946 SD - 2 :1:. Speaker, it would appe<U" to me t:.hat. what. t:he han. gentleman is trying to get at here is '"'het..'ler or not. the position of ~~e Premier,especially,and the Minister of Mines and Energy {:1r. L. 5arry) is r.ow flexible or are t.."ley :naintaining the hard l~ne t..~at. t..'ley have been :naintaining all along in supporting Premier r.augheeci and t..'le Government of Alber-:a in their policy of the res1:. of Canada can freeze in t..'le dark? !s ~~a1:. the policy ~'ley are subscribing to ncw t..'1ac . .,.ill break up Canada?

Premier Lougheed is contributing more <::C breat-.ing up Confederat.ion the.."l Rene Levesque will ever do. Is .... ~s tile policy now t.'1at :.'1.e Premier cf t.."lis Province is s~ppo::ting - !.et ot.."ler Canadians freeze in t..":e dark - or is he now flexible on t.'le position of increasing the Alberta oil to ~rld prices/ >tR. 5PE,\KER: (:-tr. Simms) ??~~IER ?ECKFCRD: ':.'he hen. 4he Premier. .'1r. Speaker, I do not perceive t..'le ?re.."tier of Allerta's posi<::ion to be t..'lat as JUSt arl:i.culat;ed by the member for LaPoile. :1?... S. :lEARY: >!R. SPEAKER: L.aPo ile. Supplementary, ~. Speaker.

Supplementa!:'J 1 the han. gen-.:;leman for The han. gentleman is aware o:..'ia::. a.bcu-.:; ::.--.....o years age ?renier :.uugheed dici say, "Let the rest of Canada freez-= in :...;.e dark 1'* ar.d t.'la<:: seems -.:o be the ;;:osition t."laC t..'1e han. ;ent;le.'Tidn has been S<.tpporting, And the reason t..'te hen. gentleman i.s g.:.ving far tha::. fOSit.ion i~ ::.~at. ~ewioundland may or may not have cf£sr~re discoveries of oil and gas, so it b~ings t:.1.a<:: :;uestl.on into :oc'.ls r.o,.. Could ':.he 'non. gentleman telL •..1s .:.n

~:avember 3, 1979 Tape :1o. 947 :.11 - l :-!..q. NEA.Fl.Y: :Jewfoundlande:rs, 'Nhc have che 5econd lowest ;:er capita i.:1ccme i.n ~he nation, record unemploymentr iE c:hereare sufficient'. :;,uantit.ies of ;as .and oil, and I ·,.rould like :or t.'le han. gent:leman :.o tell us whether or :10t there are sufficie!1t quant:l ::.y of ;as 3Ild oil 3-t: ::.1-,e moment ':o :::;ake i::: :::orr.:mercially feasible co operate wells offshore, and if ~~ere are, how long '"'ill -- take <:o ;et t:b.e..-n ashore?

How long will Newfoundlanders have to pay world prices for heating fuel before that ail is brought ashore here in aewfoundland? And how long ·,.rill i c: !:le before ·.;e will lc".cw .:.,.: ~~ere are ::;;u£::icient quantities of oil :.o ::~ake it com.-nercially .feasible far ~he oil companies to starr. ;rcduci~g the oil offsha~e? !-1R. SPEAKER (Si:n.-ns): T~e hen. ~~e Pre.-nler. PRE:<!!ER ?ECKFOP.D: ~. Speaker, twa points; one,to do with the commercial ~uantit:ies of oil of::: our shores, that J.s a ?Ery :ii.fficult quest.::.on ::o answer. It depends on ol ·:1hole l:unch of factors, a whole bunch o:: ?a.::iables.

So in anythins : say it '#cuLi ;;;e ;ust :>::tr::t::t.;;te.::s and noching ::ct:ally ~efinitive. There is a semi-submersible rig new, ! think, gone back to -:::.e Hibernia .,...ell, replacing the drill ship which has ~oved away, because a semi-submersible can operace in harsher weather c.'lan a ::irill ship.

Anot.'1er couple of sem:J..-submers:J..bles ·..rill JOirt c:,a:: on8 in t.;.,.e near f:Jtelre ar:.d 3.ddi::.::.onal c:est..:..ng ·w::.ll be go:;.,ng ah.ead en ::he :tiberni.l ·..;ell. some final answers on ':he Hibe~nia-:·!cbi2.e acreage as it reL::u:es co r.:: in :act the::e are commer::i.al :;uar.ti:::.es ::lisccvered !.n t."la:: ;?art.icular area of 200 c.:o 300 feet: :!ept!'. of ·,;at:er then i.':: is hish!y lif:ely t:.hat: the Cevelopoent. se·.quence ;;auld :>ee ;?r:Jduction comJ..ng ashore :::em that .:ievelct:r:-,ent w:..:::un four 'jea::=s,

:1ovembe~ 3, 1979 Tape !'Io. 947 :l:-1 - 2 .=.. final supplementary, the hon. ::1ernber tor LaPoile. !1.~. ~iEARY: As I anderstand fr::;m the ~on. g-entleman's answer, Sir, right at this mo::1ent1and naybe for ~he 0ext six mcnths '::O a year,'::!"lere :.s noth1.ng C::.eii.:J.i<:;e ,-.,n che offshore discove!':":l.Ct;, e·ven though people - and t}l.e ?remi.er is ga.:nbling t..'1.e Euture 8f the ?ro·Jince, ,?Utti:-~g all ;,is eggs i:J: ~"le one ~asket t !'he economy is in chaos while the hen. gent.leman is l::eing pushed -.:cwar::is oil i:t this ?rovince, and people are ::1orcgaging their homes to ~uy stocks in the oil,Cut there is nothing definite at t.'"lis moment.

P..nd the hon. gentleman says a :ninimum of four years to get::. ~he oil ashore even if i~ i5 discovered. ~~e oil ccmpanies say: lit~le longer, ~hey say ten years. The oil companies are giving a different stor:l _;;ul::licly than :..."le hon. gent:le:nan is giv·ing. And ·,;hat I want to ask the :-.on. gentleman - A po~~t. of order, Mr. Spea~er. ;.t.R. SP~KER: A point cf order, -;:~e r.on. ?reside:\";: :::>f tne Council. I had t:c i:1 cer·Jer-.e, :-tr.

Speake!"" :: quote as a:1 authcri-:.y t11e rec,:;n:: :tssue :;£3eauchesne, "a questi:m ::1ay :-:o:: te a speec~ however shor-r:., nor of an unreasonable lengt:h." Ar.C I '::tir.k that: :he hen. :;entleman is ::.ct only gett~ng :nto the area of ::1a<.ins a s;;:ee::h but. also in t:.'1e area of o:takir.g a 'inauditle). ques::.ion, Sir. I ·,;L:;h I ccul::i de!::ate To ::ile pc.tnt: of ::;rder, I should make a ruli:11;;-. I ·,.;as about: to inter"/ene :nysel! and di!:'2':t ~"'.e hen. :ne:t'be:c tar LaEolle (~tr. :leary) '::J ask flis ::;uesc::.on . . 2394

Ta;,::e 948 E:C - l somewhat v::.s-a-vis ?~e=t.i.e~ :..Ougheed's policy of zcc..~ing ic ~ ':l~e ccr.su..~ers in ~"l.e rest:. of ::anada.; :s ':..'1e hen. ger.tletr.an :-.ow :lcxi::le loc.ic ':O t:."le ::-ove~:ar.ent of Canada ':O .:-escue :Iew:'ot.:.:1dla.r.d canst.:.'7l.ers 1 or ·.Jill ':ite ;1on. gem:ler:tan t:.ell us whet..'ler or net nc\oi ::.is position is fler.i..::.le or i!: he inter.ds to 3.l':.el:: his position ·..;hen they go t.o the ~eet.ing in Ottawa next. week? :m. sp:;.;...l(ER: (Si..'";'Jt".s J :<fell, :tr.

Speaker, on t.'1.e w;,ole point, I do :;.ot think I am ::.n disagreement. ·..;ith :;he oil ;:ompan.::.es. !t depends on .,.,:-,ere oil is disccve.::ed or gas i.s discovered 1 and ·,;;1et.'1er is oil or gas; i ': ::!epenC.s on :..'1e :ie[?t..'"l. of ·.;acer. 5o 1 on one ::and, ;au =~• see a production sequence of four or five years; in ~'1ot.'1er ~ar~ cf of cie ofishore it ·,.;ill Ce '.:en or t:.,·~l'PL 3o '- 6epenC.s co a larse degree on O:.::e !:inC. of :-.yt.:.rocar.ccn i~ is, whet:::er :.:. is oil or ga;:;, i'.: CepenC.s en :..:1e dept..:1 of ·,..·at.cr, it:. ~~ in disagree~ent w~th

:-;cver.'.bar 8, 1979 EC - 2 fer 5aia ?er":e - :1hit.a Bay. >lr. Speaker, ::::y ,:;,uest.:.on lS ::or ::.<e >:i::.is-::.er of :lines and :::nergy Ur. 3arrJi. of :ron::.:1s, playing a r::ajor role in offshore oil a..-.d. gas er.ploratior. in n,i;-,ister would tell t...'te <louse, in 'lie•..r of tha decision ::;.f :-.is ::::::lleagues in Ottawa to subst.ancially C.is::~antle Petro...C.:maCa as ':'he :tor.. t...'1e >linis t.er of Y..incs a.".J ?-.;t.ro-Car:a.Ca or ':J,1ct:.;:t:!r 2396

~ovei:"ber a' 19'79 '!'ape No. 949 Mi-l MR. BARRY; continued federal govern~ent support of ~~e exploration effort. ! nave made representations to bot~ the ~inister of Energy,~ines and ?~sources and ~~e Minister of Finance in ~~is respect and I believe that we will see continued federal support of offshore Crilling progr~~mes. ~P.. S?EAJ::ER: (Sir:-ms) :.. supplementary. T!'..e han. member fer 9aie Verte-Wnite 3ay. ~R.

RIDEOUT: ~1r Speaker, the minister, I think, in ~is respcnse referring to frontier exploration is the ~runch as far as this Province is concened 1 whether or not the Government of Canada is looking at frontier exploration in the High Artic 1 for example 1 as compared in the offshore off this Province,and I would like to ask tt.e minister. in view of the representation that he has made to his colleagues in Ottawa, whether or not he has reason to be optimistic that Petro-canacia will te permitted to continue to participate in offshore exploration off our shores? ~R. SP£.t\KER: The hen.

Minister of Mines and ::nergy. Mr. Speaker, for the han. membe~'s information ~~e phrase 'frontier area' includes the High Artie, i~cluCes ~~e ~1ewfoun.dland continental shelf and ~~ere is no question as ! unCerstand it, that t':":e .:eCeral gcve!"rul\ent has ccrnmit.ted itself to suppcrti:l.g exploration in :'::-on tier areas, which i::cl'JC'es offshore ~lewfoundland and Labrador.

On the second point,again :have =o repeat that this gcverT-rnent is not ccncernea '4het:"'er it is th.rough ?etm-CanaCa or whet..,.er it is ~":rol!<;h scme other agency of the federal government, so to us ! suppose it is fair to say that we ~re neutral on Cecisicns relating to ?etro-Canada. Gur concern L~d cur interest is in seeing t~at t.~ere 'Hill be continued ~ederal gove~ent sup~crt in ~ncouragi::g exploration of~shct"e ~lewfocndland and Labrador and · .. ·e >:.xt:ect: to see ~~is fcrt.~ccmi~g. ~R. S?EAY.ER: A final supplementa~J. ~~e ~en. ::le!l'.her fer 3aie 1Jerte-W'hi te Bay. ~r. ?,..t'EOt"l': Hr.

SpeaJ·:.er, we could Ce!:a't.e at anot:-.er ti:ne 1 !::ut I am not sure -;."'lat this Province can affor2 to be :-:eutral ~97

~oventber 8,1979 Tape ~lo. 949 AH-2 !-iR. ?..IDEOtJT: in the way the minister has indicated on the issue of ?et:-o-Canada 1 l:uc I -,...ant to ask another supplementary. fu~o~~e= very important ~cost £or offshore exploration of ~~is Province has, of course,been the super depreciation allowance that the feCeral government has had in place- excuse ~e, ~~e super depletion allowance that. t...J.;_e federal goverr .. 'llent. !"las had in place over the past number of nonths and there has been scme talk~ at leas~ in various circles as to whether or not this super ~~pletion allowance ~ight be allowed to continue.

Could the minister tell me whether or not he has made any representation to his colleagues in Ottawa in ~~is regard in view of the importance of this particular programme for ~~e continued, I hope, increased activity of exploration off our shores? MR. SPEAKE?.: { Si:r.ms) and Energy. ~R. BAPJ~Y: The hen. ~inister of Mines Yes, ~-1r. Speaker, both :nyseli and,! un.dersta."ld, ~~e ?re.-:tier as well ha?e made representation with ~espect to ~,e itrpor~ance of continued tax incentives 1 such as su~e~ depletion,eo encourage 2398

'!'A?E :-;o. 950 ow - l ,\"L'q. r.. 5AP..?S: exploration off aewfoundland and Labr3.dcr. ~here will probably te scme ~odific~tions in ~he super depletion regulations ::ecause o£ abuses ·,...hich have cccured 1 r do ::.ot thir.k off Ne•Nfoundland and Labrador but in cer~ain areas where investors ~ave been able to sper.d a dollar a.nd in scr:~e cases get tack a dollar and :::ive ar.d ac-::ual!y ~ake rr:oney ins~ead of :nerely saving a cer-::ain proporc:ion of cheir taxes.

So that ~ype of abuse •..till, in all liklihood, t:e modified 1 but we have asked the Federal Gcver:.i .. tnent to be careful that they do not throw t=:e !:aby cut with t!ie bath water. If Canada is interested ~' seeing a secure supply cf energy on the East Coast, then super depletion is a ?e:::y i::1por-::ant :;echanism fer ensuring that this cernes a~cut as quicklJ as possible. ~3. D. ~~~!ESON: A supplementary, \!!;. Sp<!:.aker. A SUFplementary, the hen. Leade:::- of the Spposit:i.on. :1?.. iJ. ;;'l,)1!SSCN: 'Hell, ~..r.

Speaker, given the fact there have !:e£::< :r,cre tabies t:hrow-n out ·with :ncre bath water in the last four cr :ive months than : ~ave seen in ~he his~ory a= the country 1 ':his ::!'covLoc:e ~"' :crepared t:o see ?et:::-o-C:;.nada survi•te 'Nith all cf ::he cost:ly acccutr0mer.c.s of it saddled 'Jpcn t:-te taxpayers of: ::his country ar:d ":he bala.:1ce of i.:; slcugheC of:f ::o t."''e ;:r_:.va::e sector. :Jew I thi:~ie' :..5 ::ct obviously, ! unCerst:and, ~!.r.

S?eake.r, :.he r:oin:: et which t:::J get int;:; any argument :::n ~hi::- ;:ut i:f the :;e::tleman is stat.i::g qove=nmer:t. _?Oli:::y '"'ith reqard Ei.nC a ·way in 'Nhic:;. •Ne can g-et ::his issue deba::ed on the flocr :Jf t!':is Ecu:se to ?e-::r?-Canada as long as t:-te ::.rontie.:: de•;elopment cper:Itions of it continue~ 2399

':'APE :-10. 950 Crder, please! Al:!.. :.hey have on ':heir :?.inds oil. :.1R. J . .\10RGA:1: Are you deaf or what? Order, please! The han. :-tinister of :Hnes and E:ne.r;y. >'!r. Speaker, I c:hink I r:1ade it. :::lear in my earlier answer that we are neutral on Petro-Canada because we understand from ':.hat the functions per!:or:ned by ?etro-Canacia •,vl:-,ich are i:npor~ant to this Province will continue.

T:.at is our understanding from the 9ublic expressions :-;f intent which has eminated f::cn tl:e ?ederal Gover::-.ment in r)ttawa. :low if these :'unctions of ?et:::-o-Canada which are irr:pcrtant to t:Ois Pr!Jvince ccntinue 1 yes, we are neut:ral on ,.;hat happens to ?etro-Canada . .\f.P., D. J'A."!IESC~: Final sut=:ple...'ltentary, 7!r. Speaker. ?inal supplementary, the hen. LeaC.er of the Opposi::ion. :1?.. D. J'AH!ESCN: >!:=, speaker, ! asked t:-:e ::en. :nember a sir:':ple question.

A task force ;.;as established t:y the ?e;deral Gcvernment: to :nake reccmmendations ·..::.:::h regard to t!1e :uture of Petro-Canada. ;MOO

~overrbe~ ~. 1979 Tape ~lo. 951 ~hac cask force has brought down a repor~ which I :.ave :10 1oubt: that the erudit:e ::entleman has read and digested thoroughly. Does ::e agree ·....-i::.'l s."lac report <:o the Government of Ca.'!. ada? :1R. 3? EAi':ER t S inns ) : :'he han. :1iniste~ of ;hnes and E.11ergy. !'!R. BARP .. Y: :1~. Speake~ - A.,\j HON. ~E132R: 2dgar Bergen and Charlie :-!cCa~thy. - : do ~oc ~hink have seen a report yec :::.nat I agree wit:h in lOO ?er =ent: ~f its entirety. ! do not t.hin..lc :: have seer-, a t:e?ort yet.. AN HON. :1E1BER: C::.:mpanies t:l.ct? :-!R.

EAR?.'!: Even the ones you wrote yourself? :ncluding :::.he one you 'Nrote ~out :::1e Geed stuff. ! hope to see that bold initiative implemented he~e before long. ?REH:::ER ?ECF2CRD: 99.9. ;,13 .• EA?.:1.Y: )!r.

Speaker, ! :.hink : jave already ans·....-ered tl;e question. :: :ll:l :1ot prepa~ed to say :.hat:. : agree 'Ni:::.l'l -:he repc!:'t !:rocght. .:..n ;.Ji':.."l respect. -:o ?et.::-o-Car:ada .:.:1 l..':S entirety, !:1 le..'lsc implica.-::icns if not. di.:::ect ::eferences ::l:ere :;,s ::.o ·..:bat: ::.tght ::o p.:ck '..lt=: la.nd.s as they a;:e ::elinqui.shed :.;ffshore. an implication ::hac. t:.here should be some ::onci:med federal crow:1 :::crpon.:;:ion involvement i:c havi::.g rights of:shore ar:d :::w:: EJcsi-:i.on 240:1.

:toverber 3, 1979 :'ar;:e No. 951 t<::1 - 2 presently arranging ~o have ~~ese :allow- up :neetings which •,o~as ::;:;ar~ of t:he original discussions '#ich the ?ri:ne :1inister of Canada 1 t:.b.at t:.b.ese types of detailed negotiacions '#OUld have to :allow the ·:.;eneral expression of principle. Nhat it !::oils ::!own to is :hac ·,;e belle?e whet:.JJ.er i:::. is ?etro-Canada or any other Crown corporation which night continue to =:;;e!:at:e o.ffshor~, -:..-..ey ·,;ill operate like a."ly ot=:e::- enterprise; t..'ley ·,;ill =:eal ·..:itl1 <:.he ;.Jewfaundland Government, they will deal with oil companies.

If they enter into a ·...;orking relationship '-lith an oil ccmpa..•w, ;::ut money into a farm-out agreemenc,for example 1 t:hen ~hey should =e entitled ~a ~haceve= their share of ~hat joi~t venture would be, but they should not be in a ?OSit!on, no Crown corporation should !:Je in a position o£ saying, "'tle ;;.ave a certain ;;ercentage interest because ·..:e are en-:.i-:=:.l.ed ::.o it ur:der :ederal legislation or regc.:.lations." ~ ... is not federal regulation or legislation that appl.:..es cut: there, it is :-iewfoundland legisl.J.c.ion cr regtllac..:..ons, and I would be very incerested .l..:> any ::lebate -:hac :...1-te han.

Leader of the Opposi-:.ion •,;ants 1:.0 !:aise on '.:..."lis ?Oint:. "::lecause, as I :..mderstand it., his posicion on the :--ecord is ':hat: this ?rovince shculd :1R. S?EAKEH (Si:n:r.s): Or:!:er, please! The time :or Or3.l ;;;ue,t.ions has exp2.rea.. A :;:;oin-:. -- order :1r. S;?eake:: A point of order the hon.

Leader Jf t:he Jppo.si':..!.?n. ! ::!o 1.0t k:mw when lt. is necessary to g::..v-:: notice bu-;;: r find -;::tar: ::.n :.::ying :.o pi:::k all of t..ie. bones cut of c.hat :answer, 'Nh.!.:::h ·,.ras ::.bout as ::onvoluted a cne as ! have eser :-<.ind of ::1n objection to -,;ha:. ·..:as said a-c :..'l.e end of t.=:at wi.-:.:21 :::egard :.o my ccr.,:r.ents ar.d ::ty ;;;osi<::icn ·..:i.th ::egar::. to of:shore and if i::. is :tecessa=::' -:c gl.?%. :10t::!.ce of :::hat :: do so ;,;-:;-.;, 2402

:~QV8fl'.be~ a 1 :!.?7? '!:ape :~o. 951 tiH - } ~R. 5?~~R (3i~~s): I take ~~at ~s notice. Before proceeding ;.;i::h ':.he =cut:.ne ~tters - 3CME EON. ;.1'::''1BE?.S: Oh, chi Crder, 9lease! Before proceeding ',.;i ::h routine :nat-:e=s 1 ::here a:-e scme dis::inquisr:ed ·.ri::li::~rs ::o :.i-.e galleries ar.d :: a.'!\ sure all ~en. :::e!l'.bers ·,.,rould ·,;i;:;h to '..telccme, first: of all, the member elect for St. !1ary's che Capes, !oir. Der=ick :!anccck .SCHE P.CN. !o1EHBERS: Hear, hear! :1..~. SPEAKER: - and a member of the Legislati·.re Asser:>.bly for ':.."le ?rovinc:e of :<ova 5cot:..a, ~!r. ?:it.

P.u.'it, c,.,rho .Ls .J.l.so in ::li.e galleries. Hear, hear! :V1::. Speaker, :nay we !'>!:'.rert -:.o ?:-esenting P.epor--:.z? Z403

:::c - House o: Asse!:lbly a copy of st.:.bordinat:e l~gislat:.i:ln 'Nhic-'1 is filed :.tr. Spea.'-'.:e::-, give ::.ot.ice ::: .. hac I 'dill an ~or:-.orrcw ask leave to int.roduce t.'le following :nouon: Be it resol?e::! ::.'1at a Selec~ C:::!l"..r:Ut:~ee cf this hon. !~ouse be appointed to inquire i::.t::o ~ld ~o hear evidence o~ all ~attars :elating to ~~e a!opticn of a flag for the Prov~nca ~~d to reco!l"~nd a specific des~gn t.'lerefor. Be it: c;.:;-.es '"'he~"'ler or ::oc t:."'l.e Eouse is in session, adjourned or ,::roroguei, April, usa. llear, .. :ea:::! 2404

;-:cve:r-.ber 3, l3i9 :.m. S?E;u:-.z?.: (Si.:!'.:ns) :m. :; . cor~ r2rs: ?ape 352 E.C - 4 ;;::n tomorrow ask l~ave -:o in-:::oduce a ~ill en--:i-:led, ".;,:1 r.c-:. '!'o A:r:er:C. ':'he Gascli:-.e :'ax .\c--:, (l978) ". The hon. e: .. c :·linis<:.er cf Labocr and '2:ln -:on:o::::ow ask leave ':.0 inc::oduce a Cill en':..t.tleC, "7-..'1 i"ict:. ':o ;..::.end :-::-= Occupa--:icr.J.l i:ieal:::··. A.."lci 5a..fet:r .;c-:.". Sea.r, hear! !he hon. t:1e :-tinis:.er cf Tcurisr:~, ?.ec:::ea::ion and :~lt:..:re. !R. ?CHER: >!r. sr::e&.er, :!: ;ive notice :..~.at I ·...-L! .. l :A..edical Ac'!:, 19i4", :-!ea.=, r.car! ''"'- '1E?.G2: :-:e::J.Ori;,.l ::r . .:..v2::::>:i.t; ;..c::. 2405

:-m. S?EA::.:S?.: (Si::r..s) :::ner-;y. :-m. BARP..Y: Tape 9SZ 3 Hear, he a.!':! .:1 bill entitled, ''t..n ;..c~ -:a ?.e::eal The Gove::::'lment:./At.lantic Gypsu::: :..icit.eC/ Lu.":.ciriga.'1'S Lirt:.ited Agree:!".tlnt ,;,cc, {1909}". The hon. The ?resice •. t of ~'1.c Cc...:.'1cil. :1inis~er of Fisheries, t.'te ~.on. t.:h~ >!inist.er of Ruro.l, ngricult;;ral and :{ort..."ler.-. Jevelopment. {itr. Goucie) t I give r.otice c.'1at I ·..:ill on ':.Otrcr::::ow H:ea:, hea::! :-!r. Spe.a:~er, : ·,.;ish -:.o :.at-le mswers a::d Housing.

:Iove!'nber d, 1979 Tape No. 953 SD - l The l'-.on. :1inisc.e.r of Justice. :1r.

Speaker 1 ,.,..hen :.he House closed tt.ere were a nu..'"lber of quesc.ions on the Order Paper co which t.he answers. now wisn to cable The :irs'!", one is, and c..'1ese '"'ere asked by t.he hen, :::ember .:or !.aPoile (:1.r, S. :leary), Question 49 on the Order Paper of August. l5c.h, Question 50 en t..'le Order Paper of .:.:..:gust lOth, Quest:.ion 38 on che Order ?aper of Auqusc. 13t..'l, ~uesc.ion 39 on c..'le Order ?aper of Auqust l.Jt..'1, -;2uesc.ion 47 on !;.he Order Paper of Augusc. l5t.i., and Question 45 on the Order Paper of August 14~'1, and iuest.ion 51 on t:.i.e 0::-der Paper of August:. 16th, ! think chat. is t..'1e ~ntirec.y cf t."la t 0 :-tRo SPE.?-'-ER: The hon. t.he ?re~iero PREHIER ?ECKFORD: ~.

Speaker, I cable c.~e answer to ~uestion fl4 on the order Paper ~efore we adjourn. Jo we get copies of <:::~e .answers? ?F..E:UER ?SCKFSRD: on, absolutely. ?RESE~iTI~iG ?ETIT!UNS The hen. ~ember for carbonearo ~.R.o R. :1CCRE-£: ;.t.r, Speaker, : :1a·~e ""ith greac. pleasure :his opportunity c.o ?resent, on behalf of t.:;e l,l.JD of my cons":J.:.uents in Carbo near, ,3 petition dealing ·,..ith :.he dlf.t:i::ult.ies r:ow :Cel.r.g e..xperienced with tne ab-sence cf :.he ccmpletion of the Car!::lonear By-pass :\cad, l,lVO signacures, fu:".

Spea.i.;er, happens to be tae single l.ar;;es:t. pet:ition ever presenc.ed by rne or for t..'l.a t matter 1 to :ny ~:;.ow ledge, b:t any ot:e.er ~·t--r1 represen~ng ~'l.at sreac district. in this House. A very brief :;.:..stor:t of t..'1e Carbonear 3y-pass ;(.cad; It .,....J.S starU:<d in 1973 and was, r.cpef:..~lly, to J::e dor:e in phases.

Phase ,::ne was -:cmpleted just before ~"le 1975 Provincialelec'.:ion ano c._:..,ere was a t...".:ee or :our :nom:h lapse o: ::ioe t...'1e::e o A:-.d t.hen of it:. -::-.an pe::ha.;::s :::ocr"" ·.ve::e bcr..bs used in 'dorld fiar I! .. 3u-: ;:::hase ::·..;o ·.·as never ccmple:ted ana ::he 3y-pass ?.caci, · ... .:u:;h is a ::u.tlt:..:..-mi:lion C.olla.r 2407

Nove~ber 3 1 1979 Tape No. 953 SD - 2 :1R. R. :--!OORES: proposal, now stands one-~~ird completed and we have an entire corr~unity of just over 7,000 p~opla, with a number of major ttuc.l(ing firms importing and exporti.'lg goods and commodities ::.o people and bus~nesses ::.r~oughout the ?rovince,depending upon it.

In addition to ~~at, we have a. ~ulti­ million dollar shopping ::tall '.lhich was opened last 1ea.r ar.d at its opening it ·.;as prc~:~ised by 5omebody in this government :.";at. phase two of t.~e By-pass Road would.. ]:;.; complet:.ed to accomodat.e the t:re:;'lendous consumer traffic in and out of the com.11unity. Not.l-ting has been done an it, :<.r. Speaker; t.~ere ~ave been numerous representations ~ade to the fo~er ~ister of Transportation and cc~~unications, representations ~ade to tile ?resenr. :~inister a£ 'l'ranspor-:.ation and Cor.::munications (Hr. C.

Brett) ar~ also a number of representations ~ade by public officials, town councils, etc, ~ ::..i.e present ?re:nier and t..'le former Premier. I am ;:leased, howe•.rer, '::o say that ::.!"'.e present:. Minis::.er cf Transpor!a:ion and Commur~cations, in a recent meet~ng wi~~ ~~e Town Council of Carbonear and ot..~er local officials, ~ade ::.he ccmmit.Tent. However, I should point out t..i.at so did his rrecedessor ;nake :.'le ::cTil.rt:it:ne:<t ::..'lat phase ':.VO of t..i.is high;.ray <.;ould be ccmple'Ced ne.."<t fear.

His precedessor :nade t.'l.e ;:cr.:ni':.men>.: t:lat it · ... 'Ould be ccmpl.eteC las':: fear, ~ dare say the present ?remier of the ?ravince, k~cwinq fu:l .,.;ell ':."~.at t..'1e d~scrict was a sure Liberal distric"C, did not fi:J.ish ::.he !'u;hway ;:;ecause of t..'1e ::alli~g of ::..>e J' . .me 1St:. election. ~. 5peaker, 1 hope, on behalf of all c:ompleteC. bo:!cause it is bad.ly needed.

Tnere nave been a.l:ncsc £.1•.re near in t...~at t...'1.cusancs and tens of t..."lousar.cis :.;;f o.cll..ars .,.orth of da."::age was o.one :.o Zuildings and aut:er::ob!.2.es, c;hilciren c:ot::~::g hone fro~ sc:.-..ool passl.ng t...~e c:::oss·.,.al.k, et.c ., et.:: , 1 2408

~ovember 9, 1979 Tape No. 954 MR. ~OORES: near fatalities tha~ have been ignored, vir~ually ignored by bo~~ Xinisters of Transportation and Communications in ~,e past :e~ years. ! hope this ti~e ~,a~ the present minister ~eets his commi~~ent , goes through en ~hat he has told ~~e meeting i~ Carbonear and finishes this highway. ~P. SPEAKER:(Sirnms) !-!R. JAMIESON: Thank you. The hen. Leader of ~~e Opposition. :1r, Speaker, may ! ad:ni t at t.~e outset ~~at if ~~e hon.

Eouse Leader ~ished to ~all ~e out of order at ~,is point he probably could,because in supporting this petition ! do so in a totally and nor,pa:ctisan way :caise what ! kno~ i.s of i.nte!:est and concerr, to ~~e Minister of Transpo~ation and Communications (!-!r. srett) and! am grateful for his response already,but the reference a few moments ago to near f~talities Coes prorr.pt me to ~ake this ~epresentatior. in support of ~,is particular one wi~, reqarC to the Sunnyside-Come By Chance situation a."'ld I :!lerely want to talk about it in !atality terms. ! a.rn aware, : repeat, that it is scmething which t...,e :r.ir.is"t.er is locking at and ! just ~ant emphasi::e t..~e i.rq::orta."'lce of this and ! hope to have the opport~"'lity to ask him a question on it. ! also support ~,e Car=onear one as ~ell. 0 0 0 ~~R.

SP'£Af?:R: las't met. ~ .. R. SPEAKER: ~~~6er rising on a :oint of order? Orders of the Day. :1r. Speaker. Order 11. ~r. Speaker, since the Eouse Order, please: !s the hen. :1R. m:~\FY: ::o. I think t::is is the ~ppropriate tiz:.e, Sir, to pay tribute to a:1 cutst.a:1d.ing ~Jewfoundlat"der whc passed a•,;ay since the Eouse last :r.e't, a:"'d ! a:n referring to t!ie sad passing of Dr. Alain ?reeker '"'he ~as a =or:ner :nember of ~";is l~gislature. ! would lD:e ':C pay ~ri!:lute ':O Jr. Frec.i<;er this af::err.ccn 2409

~IoveiT'ber 8,1979 !'ape ~to. 954 AH-2 :1R. !l'EA?Y: since this is t....~e :irst opportUl"lity that we ha•...-e had to do i::. in t..~is Bouse. As a man who was ;:at onl~· a me~ber of t....~is House of Assembly for several years but an outstanding ~tewfoundlander,! t.."link we were all saddened and Newfoundland was saC.dened at t....~e passing of Dr. ?reeker, a man who contributed greatly, ~r. Speaker, to t,..l).e social and acader:-,ic life of this Province. or. Frecl:.er ·.ras one of nature's :inest gentleman, Sir. ! had ::.::e ::.onour :inC. the privilege to serve in the Cabinet with Dr. Frecker, the late Dr.

Frecker, and I am well aware of t..~e contri;uticn that he made to public life in t....~is Province. He was one of natttre' s finest gentle::nen. He served his count.:y well. Ee ·..ril!. long be remembered for his contribution, especially in ~~e field of education and t:.c t.l-te social .,..ell-!::eing and the cultural well-being of Newfoundlanders everywhere. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that all members on both sides of t....~e ~ouse .,..ill join with me today in extending our sincere condolences to the fa:t'.ily of the late Dr. F'!'ecker. (Si:m:

s) The hon. President of t~e Council. ~R. :-'.AP.SF.ALL; :tr. Speaker, '"e woulci cer-o;.ainly like to associate 1 all ~embers on ~~is side of the ~ouse, ! know we join .,..ith all me~bers in the expression of sy~a~~y.Eut before so Ooing, nor. that I wisr. to make an issue cf it in this partictlar case, of course, :::ut ! would point out to :.he hen. ~eml:er that :natters of this nature a::-e most appropriately done before the routine orders of :.he Cay occur rat.~er t~an at t~e present time. As I say, we certainly wish to associate ourselves w!.t....~ t::e expression of SJ"'ttlpathy.

Dr. :?reeker was known, ! think, to most: ~ewfcundlanders and cer-::ain:!.y to peor-:!.e associated with t . .'"te political, the '.!ducaticnal and the social life of this ?:-evince. Probably t.":.e best desc~iption t . .'";at ! can t!':.ink of sf D:r. ?::"ec:.Cer ·.1as ci•.·en when his l:.rot:Cer-i::-law, :Sisl':op ~cGrath 1 CelivereC t~e ::emily at. the funeral ~~d he refer~ed to the gentle soul of cr. Frecker being laid ':o rest. ! Co not think that there can be a :ncre .:iescri.ptive Cescript.ion of Dr. Frecker tha.t1 as a. qe:1.tle :soul :md ::e:".:.air:l'f 2-UO

!iovember 8,19i9 :-ape No. 954 AH-3 a gentle person. I :r:ysel.f, '"'i th ceher rnetrbers ~f this P.cuse1 have served in the Eouse with Dr. Frecker on the opposite side of t.~e House at the time ·.;here t..i.e hon. gentlemen t..i.ere opposite are. I have always found ~im to be, as I say, a thorough gentleman to C.eal wi t.i.. He was an outstanding Newfccndlander and 1:l.is loss to this Province and the people of this Province is great indeed. So I associate myself

;.Jovember 3, 1979 Tape No. 955 ;1H - 1 :1R. !<1}\.RSHALI.: and,I ~'1.ow, '::...'1e gove:::unent side of ::~e House 'dit:h the expression of sympac::w ·;~hich ;,as been :nade in extending co his •.;idow, Dr. Helene Frecker, and his family, all of •,.;hem are quite ac~ive :.hemsel'les in -::.he social, ':he ?Cli:.ical, and t.he educational l.lfe of ~his ?rovince. :t has bee:1 .a great loss, it. has !Jeen a ;::eat loss ':C :1ew::oundland 1 and ·.;e sercainly do associate ~ursel•Jes ·,.;ith <:he epxression of s::,.-mpathy and would ask that Your Honour convey cur sympathy <:o hL:s berea•;e~ fa.'tt.ily. :1..':1..

SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of t!:e House t:.o adopt che sa.:.d motion? Those in favour "aye", cant.=ary "nay'', carried. ORDERS DF Tl-"'1:" DAY: :1R. 3PS.;KER (Si!:lltls) : Order 2, 3ill ~o. 1. It is ~oved and secor:.ded -:.hat. Bill No. 1 entit.led, "An .~ct To ?.efor:n !'he :.a•,.; ?.es;::e::t.ing The ?ro.;:er-:.y Cf 7!ar:::ied ?ersons, '' '::le now read a second -:ime. The hon. }1.inister of Justice.

SCME EON. .'1E:1BE.?.S: Bear, r-.ear! ~r. 2pe~er, ~ c~i~~ the legislation which is being int:rcduced today ·nill !Je ar.d cer':.ainly should be :narked l:y her.. members ar.d by Newfoundlanders ;..:;, general as cne of t!'le :nos.: :;::rogressi·.re and i:npoc:anc: ar.d e:;,lighte:-.ed ;_:Jie::e of legL;latian t.hat ?C.rhaps this Souse i:1 all its sessicns :::ay be asked :o enac-:..

It is a piece of lcgisla-:ior. •t~h.i::h ·..:ill continue anC ~elp :.:o !::ring ';o :ull :::eali.::at.:on :'.Ceals ·..fhi:::h intelligent people, :nen zrnd wcmen, have helC a.nd espouseC:: ::or a !".umber cf 2-ecades, ,;ct., ar:d 2.nci : t.:st :-:ow it ·,.;as 241.2

:-<over..:Cer 8, 19i? Tar;;e No. 955 ::<H - 2 about at that time: "Section ..;. of the said ::hapter is hereby repealed and the follcwi:J.g sub;;titut:ed. -::.here fore: :-~a..:nely, every male British subject of ~he =~ll age of twenty-one years and ever! !:emale British subject at the full age of t:',.;(;mty-five years of sound understanding ~~d resident in the colony for two years shall be entitled '!:o vote." So i-::. ·was i:t 2.925 ::hat :iewfoundland ·,.;ome~ ::ould first vote. Out e•1en o:..'1en '::.!-;.ere was not: equaLir:.y ':;;ecause men voted at twenty-one and wcmen at t:,.;enty-five.

It ·,..,as r.ot until the Terms of Onion in 1949 ;:hat 't:.1.at :~u parJ..t::y of ·;otins ::or ::1en ::md ·,.;cmen ·.vas achieved in :1e•..;foundland.

Hen. members may recall a couple of weeks ago there 'WaS some cor:'!Illemorat:icn ~n ne•,.;spape.:::s -::;f an c.:r.pcrc:anr: event: 1 that: being :.:-,e ann.J.•.re.rsar"l of a decision of the ?rivy CoUI'.Ci.l in -:.he Uni<:ed Ki.~gdcm •,.;hich ::..rst gave legal recognition t:o 'WCr::en as ?et:sons. iii~l-)out. going int.o t.he t.Jad::grour.d of r:ne :::1.se1 and it: .ts qm.t.e an interesting one :::e::ause :t. deal': •..Ji:.h a woman being a.p;;oi:1ted ~o ::he Senate.

A.;. objection ·,.;as taken that: in the British )ior<::h il.merica .;ct where provision was made for a person Clt: persons to be ap;::ointei -:o ::he S.:;nat:e, che _s;oi:n.:. ',;as ::a de ':.hat ;erson did :tot ir.clude 'Nomen anC t.:-:a.c this woman was :.rnproperly a~po.tnted.

It mighc be ~nceresci~g to recall chat t.~e 3ur:;rerae Court: of Canada said r:..~ac ::or the ::;urpcse o£ th.e Bri:.ish :iort:.h An.erica Act: a ·,.;cman was not a person. 3ut ::::e ?:::irf Council J..:t Lcr,don reversed chat and, ce;;t.ainly :'or the ::irs-:: ci:r.e i:~ Canadian :night. 2e interesting t:; :;>sac just a :few lic.es !-.ere of ·,.;hac :he .::rstices ~13

':;C1JE...'1BEE 8, 197 9 JH - 1 :-m. -G. OTTENh"EIHER: of"::en forced en :n.an customs •..;hich in later years 'Nere :l.Ot necessary. Such exclusion is probal:ly due to ~he ::act that: the deliberative asse:nblies of the early tribes were at~ended l:y men under arms and •,ramen did :1-at bear anns. So that is the British judges' analysis of the situation. The next for..;ard :r.ove legally the recogni'::icn of equalit:y for ~vcmen, I think in :lewfcundland ::ertainly · ... as i:1 ':he S.u."nan ?.ight.s Code, certain additions made in 1971 and certain L~ 1974.

In l971 1 for ~he .:irst: ti..-ne, 5ai:: employ-ment _:::ractices for ":omen was made ;ar-r. of the H~~n Rights Code, and in 1974 1 provision with respe=t ~o ~quality of ~ights to accc-mrnodat.ion.

So tl:.e line of develoFtnent has ~,;en _:::ret-.:7 slaw, Not until 1925 could wcrnen in Newfoundland vote, not '..ll1t:.il 1949 sould that r:!..ght be .,.xercised at -:.he same age as l':'!en, not until 1930 were 'WOmen recognized as legal persons, and not until l?il and 1974 -..:as there in '::his Province statutory and legal prc':.ection for wcmen from ':.he point: of ·r!.ew of equal So I am i.:lclined ::o think that -.:~e :-'.atrcrncnial Prcper-.:y Act certainly should go down in <:.he histcry of thi.s ?rDvince as cne of the 5ew proqressive and enligh::.ened acts with !"esr:ect to gi7ing legal e.f.::ec:t c:::: that ecuality ::hat ;;>erhaps :.his :egi.slatu=e •,;ill !:-e asked to ;as!:' at least !or so:;o,e ':i:ne. 2le.cticn 'Hill recall that <:here had been ~ite some dis~uss!on a:cd debate i.n ;?bject of ?rcvince ~wide C.ia.:'.c;;ue and discussion :cr ever si.:x :::-.ont!1s. - would :::£ the Stat'.JS ::f :.;crnen Council '4hi:::h hon. :':leml::ers shculd !::e aware cf. 2irst 2414

::OVEHEEF. 3, 1979 TAPS NO. 956 C'd - 2 ::he ::ewfoundland Law Sociec:y at its r::eeting i:t Corner Brook and indeed the legislation has been the obje:;t of internal scrutiny in the Depar~~ent of Justice and by the Cabinet and representations .:ro~ various groups have been ~ade and in quite a n~~er of instances t:~ese re;:resentat:icns :tave ~een given e.:fect. The point I want c:o make is that we have, all of us and ~any oc:hers,t:alked about and debated and iiscussed and analyzed and commented :.~pen this pri!l.ciple and :1ow thez.-e is an opport':.lnit:y obviously to Co so in this Legislature.

And I hope han. me:r.be:s r,.,rill avail of tt:e opportunity to the extent that they •t~ish and to the extent that the rules pe!"mit then> to discuss and debate and analyze this proposed legislation. 'tlhat I am suggesting however, is that any suggestion towards procrasti!l.aticn 1 =o send it to a committee 1 to send it somewhere for .:urt.her study, to wait anoc:!-.er six :nonths, to wait anot~er year, to ~ave representations :rom this one and that one -procrastination is a nice e-:-tcuse fer inaction and certa.i_'1ly :: do not ::::ink the 'NOmen of :Iewfcundland or indeed :he men of Newfoundland or ;my ,?regressive forward looking people ~n :.his ?r~:wince wish !:o ha•Je any :=:rosc:::-astination.

Already Hear, hear!

Ali:'eady for six :::onths there has l::een •,.;ide debate and here ':here is ::::er~.aL;.l::· opfortunit:I/ i': ::an !Je debated as :::any Cays as one ·..r:ishes., tlha:: ! !ict:e we •,.,rill not have, hcwe'.ter, and •,rhat I !'lo;e deba1:ed in ::ull fer days and =or ·..;eeks if necessary in this :~gislatctre- c:hat: is ·,o~f'.at the Legislature is for-but : hope t:<a:: ':i":ere '4ill "ot be ':he suggestion y-ou k.t1ow, 'Let us se:1.d i.t 'C:J a Selec'::. tcmmi<:.':ee; :..e': '.!S ·,.;ai':. :or six or r.ine or ':'\4el7e ;:-.onths; le': '.lS ::.J.ve !:ur':her represe!1t::tions.' 3ecausejCU ;::an ::ave any ?rccrastinaticn. respec~ ':o ':;,e economic equali:::y o£ Sf?Cuses 2415

.1ove::-.ber 8, 1979 Tape 957 :sc - 1 purpose cf ::..t:., not:. to astablisn ;quali.~:· in gene:::al, .,...,itich all sensible and intelligent people accept., but ~o gi·;e it a legal expression, a spouses in marriage. That:. is ~~e overall cbject~ve o£ i~. T~e pur:cse as put fort;ard in :...".e ;,ill - and :: ·,'f'il.l j\.!St:. refer to ~"lat. - is r.;ore specific, Out cer~ainly is i:; accord 'Hith :Ji.:lc. :;;-~;OJ purpose of :.h.e A::t:.,

section three, is to reform t...1.e law 'Hi':.h ::espec"t. to ;;:at.ri=:onial propert::' in order t.o recognize the cont.::ibution :nade by eac.'l. spouse :..n a ::-.ar!:'iaqe; gi·.re a one-hal£ inte:::-est ::.:-.. t..'le =nat.::i::-anial hotr.e to eaci'. sr:ouse; provide for :i~e C:efer:-ed sharing of :r.ost ot..".er prope:-ty acqui.::ed durin:; ::tarriage; and provide fa.:: a judicial discret:.cn i:1 siu:::i.r.g business ~sets ~uil':. :l2 '=-Y a ~pause during ~arriage. :':lat. is t..'le ·,.;ay t:.e bill FUt2 it. or ·.::...-.L:m - is nothing could be fur':.her f:::om the t:::uth. :'his Act. ::ieals wi:.h I:.

Coes r:ot S;.!ggest ecor:o::tic as;;;ec-:: :.s relat.io:-:.sh.i:;: anci. ~1iS ec.:morr.i.c relat:.icr.s::.i? shcuL! .:::c ttase::5. on .!.e;z.l -:..'le -::-:o s;::cuses. So : :1o;;;e ':..':e:-e ~,;ill not ;;;e f::oli.sh .::ofere.nccs such,:;.,;:/ e.~ual.!.-::::·. 2416

:Jovember a, 1979 Tape 93i ::c - 2 Jr-.e of the ::::ain areas wi~'l •,;hic:l ':..'1e l<!gislaticn dealS iS ·.:hat:. is Called t:..':..e ::2trir:onial ::.ome. !':: St:.a~CS <:.:.1.at -aac:-. spouse has un eq:..lal interest in t:..:.-.e r::at:ri.;;-.onial. horne, ·,.;hiC.:"l is defi:;.ed senerally as :-::.:elli .. t'lg and proper":.~/ ccct.:pied ty a person a:,J. spouse as a :am.ily resiC.ence.

So t:."la ::-,at.::i:=,onial Lcr::e :::ecei·res specific a:::.tenti.on as pernaps :.'ie ::rose i.:rport:an":. single component: in -::..'l.e t..'le :x~st ir::?ortant. of oat:.ri::-.cnial ho<.e, '-'hic."l :-.ow includes a dwelling wi t.h c:p to tltree apar'"..::'lents. Thi.:; ·,..as done ::-ecause of t...'ie C.i!ficulty 'Hit.'1. ::espect to ':tcnE.:s ·..;he::e t."lere ::d.ght:. ~e one or- t:.·..;o or, indeed, t..'l:ree apar=.ent:.s, .:l.tld of det:.e:=".i::.ing what par":. of it is a :nat.rirnonial :1or..e and what :;art is not.

T~at is an alteration since the predecessor ~ill '"as in t::.."te house. :'he :.ill ·..;ill also li::ti"t each spcusc' s =onJ::ac-.:, ·.;hich I ..,ill =orne 'tO later - t.'lat is "t:;e part af the bill calleC !Jcr..estic Cont::ac::.s - or a Se!?<J.ration agree:nen::. or i:: some ci:cu.rr.sta.'1ces, of >lC::.Ual i:lt:.erest:. in ::..:1.e :::atri'-lcniai nor:1e, i't "t!"len ~as ;;:rovi:.:ior.s :.o lir.it 2417

Tape 957 ::::c - :·ie have also r.;aCe wha-::. I consider t.c ::~e an excall•H~t alte.r"J.tion - : •,.;as scing t.o say ar:.enCr.ent, ::ut:. it .::.s not an. a.T.end.":".ent because i::. is a new bill- ar.d :..1.ac is, ·..;e have, I t.1.i.nk, ?lug;ec 'A"hat cculC. have ::::ee:; a locpi1ole 2418

November 3, 1979 Tape ~Ia. 958 NH. - 1 and now the:::-e is a

section which W"ill preclude the possi~ility of frustrating the intention ~= ~he act by a spouse holding pro9ert:.y in a :::orpcrate name. In other words, the holding of property ::..n a corporate nat:'le '"'ill .::.ot new prevent :..'"tat home f.:-om ~eing regarded as a mat.:-imonial home. The act also establishes, and ::.his !.s an alteration from ~~e previous bill, that the interest in a matrimonial home is a joint tenancy. Spouses may, of course, hold as tenants in covenant 1 may cont.:- act '4hatevr::r relationships t..~ey wish between them, but >:he tenancy is one of joint tenancy.

I think it is important to note, Mr. Speaker, that :..~e court has the power to award exclusive possession to either s~ouse and,in cer~ain cases,to ~he suardian of a child or children where it is i~ the best interest of ~~at child or children. T think ':".on. ::'.embers '#iLl. ag!:ee it:.. i.:::; :1ecessar:r <:o :'lave a ::erc.ain area of disc:-etion. No legisla~ion :::an pretend <:o t.ai-ce into account e•.;ery single possible combinac..ion of vari.ous ::i=c:.m-.s";:ances and there has to =:e an area ·.vhere intelligence and judger::ent ·::orne into i-.:..

So I chi:U<: <:.hat. is a ·rery impor~ant provisicn whereby the sou.r:: do<:.:s have t:2!e ;;ewe:- ::o ""war:! ex::lusi·.;e _?ossessior. to '?.it.he!" s;;:ouse or to -:he guar:iian of children 'Nhen that. is in tl1e best int.ere.s-.:. of <:he child. T!-,e:re is also ir:.

Sec-::.ions ":' :>.r.d lJ - .: \o-;i.ll not go t.hrcugh :.hat - a ?r~cedure est:abli.:;hed .,...::_t.;;, !:<;;spec':. to c:hird .So the fi.r-st: 3ection :>f the ::ill :!eals in ;;ener.otl •,vi.:.h t:ha.:: :na.t:ri.mcnial heme and ~st.abl::..shes an equalit1 c:::f special req::..~e to that :na.t~::..mcn~al icme. :nac:o~:::on1..al assets. ~icw :.he basi:: principle I ;..-aulC. o;ay, a:: this equally unl0s.s a.n equal ::.i::..Y:.s1..sn wculd be g::-ossl:r unjusc: o.r ·..:nc;;:;nscionable. :i:419

:lovembe: 3, 1979 Tape :1o. 958 SH - 2 :1R. OTTENHE!HER: ~low

whereas the matrin:onial home regi::ne becomes irr~'Tiediat:ely operative ·,.;ith respect: to ::-tatri:;:.onial assets, the equality becomes operative upon ter::ninat:ion of the mar:::iage, through death, separation, ·..rhatever. New matrimonial assets, and here also the definition of matrimonial assets ~as been broadened ~~d it is much more inclusive than it 'Has previously, includes all .::eal and personal property acquired by either or both spouses during t:be marriage. The basic intention is to include all assets acquired by either or both during the marriage and acquired for family practice. There 3re exclusions and

section .!.6 gi•.res them; :bey are ':.hings like personal gifts, inheritances, trusts, a ;;:ersonal injury award except t:."lat: portion •,.rhich :night be representing compensation for economic loss. family heirlooms, personal e.f:ects; t.hey are e:{c::.J.ded. Business assets =.re also excluded and ~here is also a particular aFproach to business assets. Business assets ~re excluded .fr~m :he :nat:::imcn.!.al assets group except where cne :::f <:.he s~ouses has made a financial or other ccnt:ribution to <:he !:luilding up ':If ::hose assets. And t~at !..s a question, when it !.s :Jeter::nined, a suesticn of fact: #h!.ch will be dete~ined by the court. In

section 2i there is a new principle as well and there :.as ).:een a rev!.sion there t:c put in an ant:±-:.J.u:::dock clause. ~cw the best way, .!.s t::; t:Elll the hon. House briefly '""hat the :-ru:::::lock ::ase dec.!.ded anc! t:hat ·;~as that a Wl.fe, I t:hink it was a far:ner' s wi::e i:'. this i..:tst:ance. had :~.o sha:::e a£ the :ar:n because dle work 5he did ·,:as what: ·,.;auld ).:e expected o£ her, of a 'Ni.:e i:1 her posit:i.on. :·low the purpose of t:hls ;:lause i.s ':o :;:~.ve recognit::J.or. t:o a wi:e's eccn::nic 2420

November a, 1979 Tape No. 959 SD - 1 ~1R. OTTEliHEIMER: contribution to ~ar=iage, in child care, in home care, in .,.,ork perfor:ne.d '""ith ::he spouse. .~ I mentioned, there is a broader defi.:;ition of :nat::imonial assets t!-'.an in t:.he previous ac;:: arn ~~e revision includes all property acquired during che marriage excepc personal gi!ts,.!~~ily ~ei=loo~~. etc~ Again, the purpose of ~~at part of ~~e bill is put L~ statutory form in

Section 17. I will read ~~at because I t.hl.nk this is the purpose of t.his part, thi.s is the ?art deal:L"'lq with matrimonial assets. " The purpose of ~~is Par-:: is to :ecognize that child care, ~usehold management and financial support are the joint responsibilities of ~~e spouses and that there is a joint contribution by each of ~~e spouses, financial and other'lolise, :::.h.ac entitles each spouse to an equal division of ~'le matrimonial assets acquired during c.'le course of the :narriage." That, I ~UM, puts it, probably, as succinc-::ly as anyl::cdy can.

The overall principle is t:ha c the spouses contribute equally to marriage aru:.L therefore should be able to share es.ually in ~'le assets built up during the ~arriage. The t:..'U:rd sect.lon of the bill is one called 'Domestic Contracts:.

This is an alteration as well from ~~e original form~ Now Part !II of ~'1e bill recognizes the freedom of ~arried people to ar::;.nge their own financial af:fai.rs l::y c:ont::act if :.'ley so Nish co do, In ot.her · .. crus, the ,.revisions do not. apply if people make up their own contract: ar.d Nish to decer.nine thei.::- own economic r~lat.icnship ...,hi;:h bey :r.ay est:.abl.isri. ?:eviously, wi c..1. respect to t:!l.e :na t:.ri:r.onial :1ome, ~'1a t could not. l::e done~ but now ::here is an area of fre~c.crr, •,;hich has lcecn enlarqed alt.;;augh -::he :na:::..::-i:nonial ::orne sec-:::ion automa-:,ically appli~s unless t.hera has been a =ontrac~ to ~1.e contrart providing for some ot~er a.rrangemer.ts bet:',..een t.he spouses.

Also, ~~e court. ~y set aside any agreement:., jcmest.ic concrac:::., ~nich adversely affect.s t.he children. There is one o~'>er area under '::he 2lomestic Contrac~ wi'.ich ! t..1.ink I should :;oint out. and that is tila~ pe:sans cohabit.L-;g bu't. nat: married :.tay, i: '::hey ~.lsn, t.ake advantage of ~~e act:~ They do r.o::. automa:::.ically ::erne ur~er it, ::hey r:tay ag:::ee T..O come under it. anci ':.hat is how it:. a::ect.s ::.hen:~ ?e:sons cchabl.t.ing :nay, i£ ~".ey ·.,.ish, come : .. .meier ~"lc r;gL':Ie ch.roug:. agreer::en't. o: 2421.

Noverber S, 1979 Tape No. 959 SD-2 the act but are not automatically carried and, indeed, it does ~ot change the sit~ation a great deal because two people ~ay-well,c:~t is not necessarily true, cne could bring in ?ublic policy. Is there any ~ention of common law or anything? :·Ut. OTTENh~!:'""R: No, common law is not e•.ren ::;entioned. All it says is that people who cohabit may, if they wish, bring t~emselves under the law ·,.;hich i.s defined here. There is no at"Cernpt to establish an equality.

There •,;as a pP.rase in there •,.;hich, I think, some hen. members and indeed :;:embers of the general public, not only i'.on. merr.bers of this House,faund offensive and that was, 'as if they were married'. That ;r~ase was in t!'lere in the previous bill, <;..'lat:. people cohabit::i.ng may do this ar:d ::e regarded as i£ they were married. That 'as i£ they ·;;ere married' is no lar.ger there ar:d it :r.erely establishes that people ·.o~ho o::ohabit may, if t:hey '""ish, bring themsel7es, for ecor.cmic purposes, under the ambit of the Act.

It comes into force July lS-t:, 1?80. :;cw, ':.he reason £or some delay there, I think, is probably evid~nt. ::t is a quite new departure i:; the law, it will be :-:ecessary :or a nu:nber of people to become f~iliar •dth it.

Also, the gcvern..'llent: i2" ;lannir,g .3.n educational campaign to ex;:lain the basic principles a: it ::o the people of the Province and, also, there will be some ;ecple ·..;he will '..;ish to establish, per!'.a!Js, :heir OW'!'. dcmes1:ic contract:3, :;.us bands and wives who :r.ay wish to ::nake their own ar:::anserr:ents, !:ut : t-hink, esser.tially, it is :tecessary ::o have an e::iuca::ional :;ericC, '!:ecause -:hi.::; is ~ite a funda~ental change, .'-!..'q.

EP,._?_O£TT: to everytcdy. ?,i,;ht, right, unless you :::on::ract out. 5o ::h.a t:, really, is essentially what :he !Jill does. :'~ere a.r:e tw'C, ·.vt:at: are called, c:onsequenc.ial a.'l\end!:lents in the act, a:td I ·..-ill =~fer to chsor:1. 2422

Sovember a I 1979 Tape ~lo. 95 9 RAJ One,deals with the family relief act 1 and the effect of ~~at amendment is ~,at ~~e matr~~onial property regL~e is one of ~~e fac~ors which a Judge will turn his mind to when he is making a determination, uncier ~~e family relief act, 2423

:-rovember 9,1979 Tape No, 960 AH-1 MR. O'I"'rE!UlEIMER: The o~~er one is in terms of ~~e !n~es~ate Succession Act; ~~at is where a person dies without a will. As the situa~ion now is, if a man or ei~,er spouse dies without a will $30,000 goes to ~,e surviving spouse and all ~,e rest whether it is $1,00 or hunCreds of ~,ousands gees according to the pat~ern of intestate succession. W~at the amenCrnent to ~,e Intestate Succession ,ll..ct will do !"!ere will be that ""hen a spouse dies the net, the residue of his or her estate will go to ~;e survivor. That is what ~;at does.

So ~,ose in general are the principles of the bill. The major changes, I would say,since the last one was introduced in ~~e House are; number one 1 t.,at t..'"l.e spouses may contract out i.f they so wish but if they do not it automatically applies. HR. NE.":\RY: 1-l'hat procedure do they have i:o go ~hraugh when they =ontract out? ~R. OTTZSHEIMER! A 'Nri tten agreement between a man and a woman setting up what they wish to de, to be guided by­ it would not have to be =y a la~;er, as long as it is signed and wi tnesseC, signed a.'""ld '"'i t."'"l.essed by bot:-, parties. :-!R. NEARY: (Inaudibl-=l by a lawyer?

People could say scmething to t.~e effect of 1 we Co not .,....ish t..'ie ''atriznoni:ll ?rop!!'rt.y Act to a;::ply and •.;e ~ave agreed ~~at ~'1e house will go here and the bank account ~here and t.'iis will Ce left to the children, etc. 1 etc., and it could =e done up. ! am sure if your hen. colleague behind likes the idea of :'taving it done up wi~~cut lawyers 1 t.~en I think I should repeat quite stror.gly ~~at it certainly can be done. ! believe if two people know exactly hew they wish to have their assets disposed off when one or the ot.'ier dies i t.'1en I .... auld not think it 'NOUld :1€Cessarily Oe sa=-:.icularly difficult. :1R.

THCMS: You are ;;;r;:;senc:ed <,.;::..~;;. cnis ccn-r:rac:: a~ ::~e al~ar, is ~hat it? ~R. C't'T£!-iHEIMFR: So the main C.ifferences are t.!",at -:he area of :reeC.cm is broadened ...,.he:::e spouses -:nay ccnt:=ac-t. out.

November 8,1979 Tape ~-to. 960 J\H-2 MR. OTTE1lHE!~R: of the provisions, including the matrimonial hotr.ej there is a broader definition of matrimonial asset; the insertion of what is called for shorthand, that anti-murdock clause, to assure that woman's contribution in t..lote daily working of a family unit 1 includL~g their business activities, is not a liability in any claims she might have. It cannot be held against her, so to speak. The interest created is a joint tenancy. Also. the court may order possession by ti'.e guardian of ci'.ildren.

There i.s a new provision which will eliminate, which is intended to eliminate,t..~e frustration of ~~e purpose of ~~e act by holding of property in a corporate name and 1 also, in terms of t.1-je matrimonial heme itself, it has !::een defined with more clarity, th.at is a dwelling including up to three apartments. So there are ~he general purposes of the bill.As I said at the beginning, Mr. Speaker, I think in terms of social legislation, I think in tenns of equality of rights 1 that ~~is may well be c~e of the most important pieces of legislation t..l.:at hen. members who are here will be asked to vote on.

And when you go bac~ and think that only in 1925 did women get ~1-je right to vote in ~ewfoundland - and then they had to !::e twenty-five and :nen twenty-one, not till 1949 was there pari tv there, and not until 1930 was t..'1ere legal recognition in tenns of the British North America Act, the use of the •..rorci, 'person', not until 1930 was it recognized that t.\;e person included the woman and there not by the Supreme Cour~ of Canada, which denied it, but by the Privy Council in London, and not ~til 1971 and 1974 in t.~e Human Rights ecCe 1 t."lat equal e:nployrnent opportunity ••:as given to ·,.,omen.

I t.~ink hen. me~bers<will agree it has been a fairly slew road. So I do :-.ope that hon, me!l'.bers on bot~ siCes will certainly participate in t.~e Cebate and certatnly 1 ! t~ink, as I said at G"le beginning, there should be =ull debate and discussion en it, ~ut ! Co not t~ink that we shculd tr! ~o procrastinate and send it of to ano~"ler ccrnmittee =or a six :nontb.s' study ,or a nine mont."l.s' study, or this or that. Procrastination, I think, can only be regarded as an excuse for an action.

We have it ~e~e now, it will come into effect July l, ~~ is not written in stone .. ::here are verJ ::e...,. acts, .,.,hich in th.e course ryf time and ex- perience are not and cannot be amended, 2425

,'!o'll'err.ber 3, 19i9 :'ape 961 J::C - 1 t.'tat i.£ -..:e ;,;ait. and tr} to <:: .. ink of every possible combination of circumsta:1ces one could so on forever. So what : am suggesting is ~'ta't. obviously, we should have full de.bat:e :'1ere ~ut 1 hope t.:.lat we 'dill not attempt to procrasti~at= ty :sending i.t. off t.c a cor:_'l'li~t.ee l:ecause :: a!:t sere then >:.11.at procrastination •·•auld ~~ ~egarcied as an excuse for inaction, sc:-z Ec:r. :!:E:-EE?..s: l!ear, hear! ::..:.i. S?EA.:.:ZR: (Butt) :'he hen. t..':e ::;er:-ber for Grand BarJ>.. Hear, hear! .:1R.

"!'HOMS: I can assure t..'te han. the ainister of Justice that the Cpposition will not. be asking t.'1at a .S~lect C.:nr.mJ.t.tee be set up to do any funher St'.ldy on ':..-.is bill - :10t saying t:.~at I am not going to ask for a few days, but ! am :::er":.ainly :1.at going to ask fer a S~lect Commi~~ee ~o be set up. Hear 1 h.e ar! I: is i!'lt:Cro:=sting t.c ::c::.e, :·!r. Speak.er, bat: t.J:1roughout t."'.e :ninister's ir.:.rcCuction to t..t...is par-ti:::•.ll.ar bill ~:at ;;.is re;ference "Nas always to t.."le ·,;oma."'l..

I t.'l.ink for t:.'lose cf ·.1s from t.".e opposi::.e s<::{ in t..'lis House and throus:.out ~"'lis Pro<.rince, I should ,?Cl.:l.C. out ;..N HON. MEMBER: Sometimes ~"'.ree. MR. ROBERTS: ~hese days you can never be sure. .:m. TEC!·!S: ;;. l1usband, ~Cer this :::ill, of course, can become t:nduly enr!.d;eC - ! am. afraid ::.l1at t."1at can :Ce ~'i.e s!. '::lat..:.cn - as well as a ·.;ctr.aii. becoming t.J.,'1C.uly ;;;nricncd. : ·o~cul:5. like m ;?oint: out., ir..:r.eC.::.ac.ely, ,;:ar':;..i:::ular bill - and it. .l..S ::.ct. !ln 2asy !:.J..ll for a la<..yer ::.:::. :>feal-;: or: - Z426

~iovember a, 1979 Tape 961 EC-2 ~R. TEOMS: going to give lawyers more headaches than fees. You are going to have me crying XR. THOMS: I am in tears. I would rather, as a lawyer, that th.is bill •,o~culd never come before this House; however, ! would like to say at ~~e outset that I think if there is one piece of legislation that the government of ~~is Province is going to bring in in their term of office that is going to be historic - anC the Premier referred to ~~is being an historic session of ~~e House of Assembly - I ~~ink if anything ma~es it historic, it will be ~~is particular bill. SOME HON.

ME~ERS: Hear, hear! ~-:F .• m::AF:Y: It is a 'Lynn Verge 1 bill. ~~R. THOMS: It is a bill that reforms the law en matrimonial property. It is a bill that gives statutorj recognition to marriage as a partnership. Unfortunately - and ! guess it is a necessity - it is a sad commentary on our society today ~~at it also gives recognition ~o relationships not unlike marriage but ~~at are outside the marriage. ~ere are certain flaws, I ~~ink, as most of us would admit.

You knew, if you ...,ant to take it to the ex~reme 1 t,;,e act itself gives an opportunity for some man or woman, if t.~ey '<Janted to, to make a real living out of :.he act. They can ma!:'ry, di'J·orce, get SO per cent- marry, divorce, get 50 per cent- mar~], divorce, get SO fer cent and easily become a millionaire in t.'lis respect.

To take it to t.'1e extre!re, I can also see - and I a.'!!. sure some of my colleagues ar.:ci maybe others from the other side will be Ciscussing t!"lis partic•.!lar ;:latter as 'Hell - where this act encourages t•,.,ro people to live together =at!'l.er t.;.,.an to marry. ~iow, ! t.~ink probably we are only recognizing .scmeth.!.ng t~at exists already. But if one partner does tave a lot of property there is one ·.;ay that you do net have ::.o share, that is si:r.ply by not gettir.~ mar:ried. '!'!'len ycu do not have >:o share your property •;~it..~ t.l:.e other person, Z427

!lovember 3, 1979 Tape 961 :sc - 3 MR. THOMS: unless you are crazy enough to contract your way into and under the act. A."l 2CN. :1E!o'.BER: This is free legal advice we are getting here now. MR. TECMS: Of course. W~e~~er the advice is moral or amoral, as you •,.;ould know, is not for :ne to determine. 2428

llovernber a' 1379 Tape No. 962 GH-1 :-!R. T!iOMS: for me to determine, The client comes to me, ! point o~t to them t~e loopholes in the act, and it is up to them to take advantage of it. Now this is

an act, :1r. Speaker, this is

an act that is going to af=ect eve~z married couple in this ?rovince. !t is

an act that is going to affect,if they want to,every couple in ~his ?rovince who are cohabiting.

As I said at the beginning - ! do not want any~~ing that ! say to be taken wrongly - we are supporting this bill, ~~ere is no question ~out that, but I think that it gives me an opportunity - I was not here during the debate in the last House - to look at some oi the problems that could be assoc~ated ',.Ji'!:-1. this particular !::ill. !t is ~n impor~ant bill, it is a bill L~at we are going ~o have to live wi~~ for the next tWo hundred years. ~ think the bill has :::o be locked at ve~f c:are.!:ully ;:,etween ~his second reading and ':hir::J. reading of the bill.

For exa1n;::le, you cculC really have a stampede, you know, on June 30th in this ?rovince. Under the

Interpretation Section, Part ~,

Section 4, Subsect.!.on (1), it says, ''In th.!.s ac-::. 'rnatz-i::~.cnial heme' means ~he dwelling ~nd real property occupled ~y a person and his spouse as :::he.!.r :amily residence and owned !Jy either or ~cth of t:hem". ~1ow, to me, -::.his suggests that if the matrimonial home is noc occupied by both partners t:o the marr~age, and where this act comes into force en July lst, ::hen ':-he thing is taken out :rom :.1.nC.er the definition of :nat::imonial heme.

In ::Jrder t:o -:orne •,.;ithin ::he definition of mat:::i.:r.onial home, .zverybody ·,;ho is sepa.::atad for cne reason or the other prior to July lst,has to go bacit, occur:;y that home 'Ni~'1 the oth.er partne.:: z;o ::hat: they can be occupying it on J'...lly 1st. ?here are ;cing to be some rscon- ci.!.iat.:..ons ::Jet·,;een :1ow and J'-.l.ly lst. :·1R. '!'HOHS : There could be an aw:O:ul let of reconci.l.:..ati.cns ;:;et-w-een ::ow and ~IJ.e end of - Kis;; and r:-.ake '..!P !:·et'Neen r.cw a.r:C. :.he ,:ond of ...,une. 2429

~ovember 3, 1979 Tape No, 962 GH-2 ~ think under ?art !I, for example, under ?arr.:: r: where we talk about the matrimonial assets, the act does not seem to me to give due recognition t:o a situation r,.;here two people, where ?roperty has been acquired after separation, after acquired property. There is a reported case in our own local courts here now, you knew, a d~7orce case, whereby the husband had very little, his r.et worth when that one ·,.;as decided was very little, if any.

But this 9arr.::icular person has the potential t~ ea~ a lot of money and to acquire a lot of assets aft:er the separation or after che :Evcrce. I believe our courts should have it ·;,~ithin t.'leir discretion ~o make an order as to 'after acquired' proper~y. As well, under

Section 191 Z430

~ove.":'!ber 8, 1979 Tape ~io. 963 I3-l /!R. THC!<S: where either s~ouse is enti~led to apply to a court to have the :r.a'C.::ia:onial assets divided in equal shares. That is where a petition :or divor=e is filed, a ~arriage declared a nullity, where spouses are serarated. ~low,

section 20 of the Act then, of course, gi·.res the guidelines that the judge is to use in making that division. Now, it does not have to !:,e !:ifty-t:i:fty. He,beari:lg ir. :nind the guidelines. can :!'~ke a seventy-five/twenty-five division, he can :nake an eightt/twenty division but he has to make a division. The judge has to make a division of that property upon application by either spouse.

Now, the!"e are lots of cases, lots of examples, where it is r.ot necessarily the =ight thing, or it is not in the welfare c£ one or either of the spouses O!" the :::hildren• 'r'here is only one ·..ray that a division can be made and t:P.at: is a realization c£ the assets by selling the assets. So a court under this particular

section is fcrced to order the liquidation of t~e assets and share the :noney according to wb.atever -:iivision he :nay see fit. There is another point,o£ coursB 1 that should !::e :nacle, anybody ·,;ho has locked at the Act. and that is

section 42. ::Ct: means that everybody in this Province who has a will already will r.ow ~ave to have that will !"evised. And that might not be a bad thing because ~est people need revision of wills ~ut ~ever get ~hem done. The!"e :s another

section that was not in t~e bill when ~t was :ncroduced last tL"lle. ,:'l,s fa!" as I ::an understand, .:c: ::.:tme out of t!"le blue. !:ave ::alked '•.tit~ :ne!T'.bers o£ thee panel that sat in Corner 3!"ook and, as fa;:; as :i: unCerstand, it was never discussed at all. I<:. is a very i;;.teresting section. It is

section 36. 'A :ni:Jor . ...,ho has capacity to cont=act :narriage may enter into a marriage :::cm:::ract or seFaration agreement: ::hat is approved by ::he ccur't.' ;.Jew : -:hin% the c;cr..rnon !.aw says t::;at a ::nale has <:.1"-e capacity to :narr:r •,;hen 'ne is .:"ourteen years old ::t.nd a fe.:nale ·,.,hen 5l1e is t:·..;elve yea!."s old. ::nder this particular secticn a ~inor, scmet:cdy ninet:£:>1\n years :;,f age or ' . .mder, ::an enter into a ::1.ar::-iaqe 2431.

~Jovembe:r a, 1979 Tape ~Jo. 963 !3-2 :-tR .• TECMS: t~ey are going to have to make an application -::a the cour:: to have their marriage contract approved. This is going to afiect quite a :.ew t:larriages and people who are marrying in this Province. I think statistics 3how that two-thirds of the women who marry in this Province, are t'..renty or under, two-thirds. One-third of the :.:en 'd!:o :narry i!1 this Province, are twenty years of age or U11der. :::'his Act forces minors :.o go dov.ntownrhire theMselves a lawyer, :nake an application t:o the court before they ~an make a marriage ~ontr~c~. ~hat the rationale is behind ttat particular provision, I do not ~~ow. 2432

ttov. 8, 1979 Tape No. 964 MB-l !·1.R. THOMS : As ! say, I have checked wi~~ the people who have been involved wi~~ ~~is pa~icular act new for some ~iree, and it came right cut of the blue as :ar as they are concerned.

It brings upon another very interesting question which r have not had an op­ portunity to do any legal research on, and that is whe~~er or not a lawyer can accept inst-~ctions f:om a ~inor, even if a minor, man or woman, l:::oy or girl, whatever you want to call them, whether or not if they came to me and said'lcck we are getting married, we want to make a marriage ccntroct, we want to make an application in ~he court to have ~~at marriaqe contract ratified by the court', I do net ~~ink, as a lawyer, I could take those instructions from a minor, '""hich means that they have the capacity to tr.arry, they have the capacity to enter into a marriage contract, but at this point I have to go out ~~d say, 'look, go get your ~ether and fa~~er, bring ~~em into my office and we will C.iscuss it'. ! would be ?er'j 5ur:;?rised if a lawyer could take instructions from a iT'.inor, say a sixteen year ::.ld or a fifteen year old who is getting married.

SC!-tE HCN. ~!1EER: What is ~~e legal age to marry? !-1-R. THCMS: Legal age :o rnarrf;common law, as : mentioned ._....hile you were out, is ::nales t::::ur'.:.e~n, t 2males ::wel'le. Mr. Speaker, the new act that is being brought before ~~e House today fer second reading, contains, as the hen. !Unister of Justice pointeC out, a ccr,t::ac~ing out clause.

I ~~ not so sure that the contracting out clause does not really defeat ~lte purpose of the bill. !! t.·,..,o :;::eople '""ant to they can con­ ':ract out of this provision of t.'le act. ~ow, '<Ohen they enter into a contract such as that, :Lt. !..s :'.OC:;)all:; at t,he begi::.ni:1g of a ~arr:age ·,;he!'. happiness abounds. Only ·,.;hen ':he !:<loc:n goes o== tie r:::.se is a act such as this ~ecessa~f. If you have a situaticn where scmeone

Nov. 8, 1979 Tape No. 964 !-'J3-2 :.,_R. THC!'!S: transfers his house to his wi=e so that if down the road he goes bankrupt the Sank of ~ontreal cannot sue him on a debt, get judgement, attach his house and sell it. ~ am not so sure that ownership should be the answer here.

If the act could create a claim to half, or a claim to fifty percent, because unless- now leo; us be realistic okay?­ I would say ninety percen~ of ~,e reople who own hcmes are net going to enter into a contract to contract out of. ~ cannot see too many people in my district, I cannot see too many people in Point au Gaul, sitting down and doing a contract to contract out of ~,is particular act. Consequently, ~,ey are bo~, going to have fifty percent of ~~e house. They are never going to think about contracting out of t.,e act

November 3, 1979 Tape No. 965 GH-1 MR. 1'H011S: so ~~at a third pa:~y will not ~e able to come in, ~ake ~~ ~t~achmenc against that house, against ~~e spouse's interest in ~~at house and sell it. this party, this epposition, :1r. Speaker, :;.s ! said ear lie=, think, will be 100 per ~ent behind this bill when it ccmes to a vote. As everyboC.y knows at one time •,.;hen a :nan and a woman got :nar::cied, there was one person and that one person was t.he man. iie all, of course, agree that times have changed, things have changed, and that the principle of ~~is bill is a good principle.

It is not historic in one sense, I think that 'de are the seventh .s:rovince now that will have a bill of this type. There a:::-e. still three provinces that do not have a rr.arried women's property act. We are going ~o support this bill, although ~ have talked with the Chairman of the Cur.adian Sar Association for the ?r::lvir.ce of ~~ewfou.'1dland, Ray Halley; ::: have talked to David Day ''-'hO is acknowledged as being t.'1e exper-c ir: family law in this ?rovince, 'the exper-c', l:oth of ·#hom <Jauld like to have some input into -;.he bill tb.at ·,.;e now ;,ave before us.

There have been some changes. il.s ! said ~arlier, we would :10t ask for a Select: Ccmmio;.tee of t:..'1e Hous~. Bowever, I would ask that t:hi=d :::eading of -:his bill - : do :-.oc: :1ot like to use the words post;:aned cr delayed after hearing the :1inister of Justi.ce - bu't .:.f 'He ::auld have third ::-eading of ::hi.s bill a week or ten days f::om ::ow :::ather :.han ::omor=ow or MonC.ay or Tuesday~ As I ;;aid, : have spoken ':a beth !1r. Halley and :1r.

Qay, L~ey would beth like ~o ~ave an cppor~un~ty t.o =eally jiges~ the ~ct and an cppor-cunicy ~o make a re:;:resent.at~on 1.n w..:-iti:lg . .5aying :.hat it .:.s going co ::hange an:;rching ... : have already g.l.'J"en you our ccr..rnit:ncnt ':hat •.;e a.re suppor:.ing ::he =:ill, but. I w·oulC lif;.e to have an opportunity co see what cl'ley 1-ave to say about che bill icsel::. :~ow, it still :::eans ':!:at t.he ::L!.l :!..s going to :;o through, i-.:. is ;oi.:1g :o be ;;:assed cer-tainly !.n this session o= che House,ami wi"Chi.n cte :1ext: :.e!'l :!.ays or so, bu-:. ·Jot:ing ::or ':he bil.:., all Z-135

:1ovember 8, 1979 Tape ~lo. 965 GH-2 people 'Nho have shown an. extreme ~nterest in the bill - a chance to give them an opportunity ~n between second and t..'1ird reading co make cheir v·iews f:no"m. And :.his expert opinion could help us greatly ·..,hen it ::ames to the clause ':Jy clause st::..:d:; o: che ~ill, but: we will - like I say, I a..rn not trying t:o delay the bill at all, it will so through in :.his sessLon. It is not due for proclamation until July lst so we are really not losing L1Y time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SCHE HCN. :1E!1EERS : Hear, hear! :1R. STA.GG: Mr.

Speaker, I think this bill has gone through a sufficient gestation period, and it is incu.'Llbent upon t...'1is House to get it passed as soon as ?OSS.lble so that: ·,;e =L1 ;,.ave benefit of it in this Province. !t ~s a bill that: i3 obviously lang overd~e, t~at:. a signi:icant portion o: our pcpulation,in scme ways, has been discriminated aga.lnst over th~ years and this gove~nrnent has iecided t:.hat it is a major ;;;ieee of re:::'onn legislation t.!l.at i:: wants brought !:::e.:'ore this ?rovi::1ce. :row, it is unfortunate a .. rtd :: think it. is probably dirty pool on ~he part ::f -:.he gover:1ment -:.a brir.g :'..-:. !:or<~a:::d Z436

~love:nber 8, 1979 Tape t:o. 966 !B-1 :-P... STAGG: on down in Burin-st.

George's and a by-elec~ion just called in­ what. is the other district?- SOME HCN. !-!Et<'.EFRS: Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. 3urgeo-3ay d'Espoir. -because obviously that gives our candidate at lea5t 50 per cent of t.he ·.ro"t.es down in these distric-::s tec~use both of the candidates dcwn there are people who are associated - ':he _:cr:r.er ~inister of Fisheries is associated with this bill and the gentleman,whoever gets the nct:~ination :or us of t..'1e multit.ude that are going to rJn for the nomination £or us down in 3urgeo-3ay d'Espoir, he is going to be ::he beneficiary of at least 50 per cent of the 'Jot:es because this gover~~ent in its wisdom and its desire to Cring democracy and refer~ to this Provi~ce is putting this bill =arward.

So I say the clarion ca.ll goes out to all the <,.,'Cmen in aurin-St. Georg-e's, 'Vote =or Walter!'. Hear, !:ear! You .:::annot save :ialce.::, :ny son, you might as •..:ell forget .\lR. LUSH: I think of them ~eating their =reasts on the street.s . :-!F. S'!'AGG: Oh, the hen. member said t!Ley ·were beating t:teir breasts. :iell, that is an. expression he ::::.ay .,..ish to el.ai::orate ::.:!n .,.,hen he 7:'akes his speech. ':'hat is the merr.!:er for '!'errs ~-leva (~!r.

Lush) who :nade -::hat ;:;hau•Jini.st statementJ for the record. :-icw. :n the marriage ~ere:::ony at::tended a ::nar::-iage a couple of ·,.eeks a.qo, not my cwn. There is a phrase in ~he ::'!arriage ceremony ·,;hich, i.:1 ~!'lis ;::ard.cular c!"l.urch, said, "And .::.11 ::ny worldly ;-cads with thee I ;;hare". tl-:ee endow. :1?. S'!'A.GG: ::::".dow. In ~::is ::ase it wa.:s share. !t -..,.as -::.he King James ::ere::-tor.y. It: is sot:~et:.h::!.ng that has been :::-ecogni::eci, at: least i.n :::-eligious circles, for a lena ti::Je, :.!!.at a :nar:=i:1ge is, in fdct:,;;, Z437

:1oVe.'l'lber 8, :!.979 Tape No. 966 IE-2 MP..

STAGG: Yes, ' suppose, half :ny worldly qoods 'Ni th thee I share or endow. ~ow, gentlemen and ladies r am goir:g ::o g-ive some statistics concer:1ing the di·mrce rate in <:his Province and r will have a few general words about divorce because ::his b~ll pr.?:dicated in large part upon the dissolution of marriage either by di·.ror~e 0r by nutual consent for dissolut:.ion, as far as the division of property is concerned,or in some cases by death because it does alter the In-::estate Succession Act and put:.s one on l'lis guard so :ar as the application of the Hills Act is concerned. 3ut up to today - and !nY r1.2search is ir.deed Up t.o date - there have been 4,692 petition issued in this ?rovinc:e 1 that is issued r;etitions, divorce fetitions issued in this ?rovince.

T~at is at the trial division of the supre~e Court. And there have been 119 pet:iticns issued a.t the l'ni£ied Family Court ·e!hich gives '.lS about 4,800 ?etitions issued. This is since 1968. It ::nay also be of some trivia v·alue to hen. :ne!llbers to know that t.he first Fetition was i~ July of 1968 and the la~1er in that case was ~~.r. i::avid Sparkes. ::r.e lawyer in the t.hir::i case was the present judqe :::Jf d:e Supreme Court, ::!r, ~loel 1 and the la"'yer in the fcu:rth case ·...ras the "Hell-lmown, i?ool. The indi •.ridual lawyer remains '.Jr:.kncwn.

But since : ?68, -:here have only l:::een -1,800 divorce :::;·2titions. :.Jow :',ot every divorce ;:::etition ends 'JP in a divorce, some are dismissed: scrne are ·,.rit!:drawr, and some are granted at the decree nisi ;,;tage l:::ut: the ;::arties never a;:;ply :or the decree absolute. S:o :;: · .. muld say t:-:a:: there have been app:oxi:nat:el:r 4,G00 divorces in this ?rcvi.:-,ce in ::!".e past eleven yea=s. ;.;e had i.n 197€ - that is ::he latest ::;-er:i.od •,;e havs ·,f Statistic;:; canada's exhausti·;e :;:.lr'JE'fs - t.::e:e were 238,0CC statisti::.

I am not sure :-.ow they a.=-::i·;ed at it ;:;ut : do not ar:;ue :nen. And :::ne 'Neeld thi:-~k t.hat !1?,445 would l:e •,.;cmen. Jh bu:: -::rat is not soJ i-: is 11?,:25 :...·cmen.

:<cvemi:ler S, l.919 Tape 96 7 EC - l :.Ut. 57,il.GG: And t.'lere is a separate sec't.ion for widowed people, so I a~ not sure how they arrived at ~~ae, but in any even't., ':.here •,.ere approximately 240,000 people married, 'o/nic."l gives you about 120,000 marriages and we have only had about ~,JOO di·.rorc:es, · ... :n.ich gives you about 2 per cant; 2 per cent of t.'1e marriaces in t,;;is Province in d;,e pas:: se1tenteen years or en any given 1ear, will re:Ju.lt in di·.rorce, ;.;nich is ::ot a verf high rate.

I :1ave t.'1.e ::ele•Jant stat.istics I have not worked out t..1.e appropriate percentages, but I \oloulC believe ~'lat our per capita divorce rate would be relatively low wnich speak3 ·,.ell for ~'"le insti t:ution o£ t:~arriage in t.."lis Province. A.·lC:. ! :.~ink it: speaks well for the quality of li.fe we have in t.:.1is ?rovince, a,d it speaks well for our people generally.

So ~~is bill, '"'nile it 'NOuld have universal application to all t..1e marriages so far a.s t..'te i:nplernentation of t.."le bill is concernea, ~t.e are not dealing wit:..'1 a'1 a:.,.ful lot of people. !t ...,auld be a relatively srr.all segmen't: of our population and I would :-;ot think t:,.a::. "t..1.is bill is sol.ng ::o l.rl any way encourage any :nore Ci•Jorces; i:: ::tight encourage a :ew, l.t: ::U.gt".::. ciiscourase a few as well.

So it .,.,.ill probably balance out as time goes on. :Jew, one r:Ugitt. asi<., How ·,.auld a person get involved '"'it:..": tais act? t.'ell, :..1.e logical .... ay to ge:: invol·:'ed "..Jl.t.:l. l.';;. is unC.er a - Get :narr.t.ed. ;-tR. STAGG is get ;:-.arrieC., ;::.y learned f:l.enci says - yes, whic.'"l is - i am tcying to fir,d - 1 t..'"li:lk t.'1e ::..embe: for ?o:t. cie Uravt! U1r, Collins) h.as :;;colen :r~y notes!

So he has: verJ =:ucn ~ 2..968, se~ out a ntm'.ber of g::ot.:nds :or Ci vorce. 7hiS is JUSt - is sor:'.et:..~ir.g t..'1.a::. 3:l.Ould Oe included in t.'i.e Cebace, l-icw ·,..oulcl a ?e:son f;,.nc himself ~eing ::onf::on::.eC 'Ni:.h ~1is Ac:., ::tayoe en !:...'1.8 receiving s::.ce of a di·."'rce ,?et:i::ion? The: grounds for divorce ln Ca..'1.aC.a, set ot.:t ;;y :::.e Z439

.'<avemcer a, 1979 Tape 967 EC - 2 :1? •• S~.i\GG: I will just read some of ~~e ~ain points i..nto the record: "A petition for divorce may be presented -:.o a court by a husband or ·...-ife on ~'le grounds t.."lat t..'"le respondent' 'dho is t..'la part:.y 'Hho is the opposi-:.e of t~e petitioner " since the celebration of t..'"le oarriage

a) ius cornr.Ut::.ed adultery;' so t.."le Biblical prohibition against adulterj is cert:.ainly reflected in t..'"le ~ivorce hct, "or .

D) has been guilty of sodomy, bestiality or rape or hils engaged in a ho~csexual act 1 - it gets ~ind of serious as you go on - '

c) has gene througn a for::t of marriage '"'it.':!. another person; or d) :nas treated t..~e petitioner with physical or mental cruelty of such a nature i-nclined as t::J renCer int:.elerable <:..~e continued cohabita"t:ion of 'C..1;.e spouses.' <'<ow, I pause 1:.'tere briefly, because tAis is the

section of c.'"le :Jivcrce Act t..'J.at I find is being used rore and more as :.'le grounds for divorce, mental anci ;hysical cruelty. '!'his is a relatively cotr.mcn grounds for :!ivorce and in ::'CSt cases, ale.;."lough r.ot. in all cases, it is t."le wife 'Nho brings t .. .''l.e action ancl i~ is as a result. of violent physical ::'~str~a'C..~ent en 'C..~e part of W<e ·,.;ife by ~.e husband. :'here }',ave been a few :!ivorces brought. ::.y :..."le husband, ·,;ho ;,as been sufferi.ng at :...'le hands of 'C..1.e '-'~i.fe, but generally sr;;ea.~::..n.g, 'C..'lat 'dOUld be an exceFtian.

Eu't: ':..<ere are a nt.:meer of cases on record ',.;here husba."lds have tai:en act::..an for divorce en <:..'l.e grol;l1ds of :r.enta.l and ?hysical ;::ruelt.y. !t is t...'1at group of people ;me are physically a.r.C. ment:a.lly 3.'cused in c."l.is ?:::-ovl.nce ::.'la':. ':J."l.is act is really be salvation for. :;: wculci 3ay :i1at :here will ::-e prcb<ti:ly !1unci.:reds cf ""l.ves, :r.ayi::e :.."lcusands of '"'::..vas Z440

~ove~~er 3, 1979 Tape No. 963 GH-1 :IR. ST.l\GG: - c:housands is a big ·-rare- but let us say ::housands of wives whose husbands '<~ill ::reat them a.J. awful lot =-ett:er as a result of this bill having been passed. Now,J:hat: is the bottcm line.

There is in this Province, as everywhere, a certain amount of the ~acho L~age of the ~an, that the wife is his property and that he can do what he darned well likes with her, particularly when ~t cernes t:o assessing ::he nll."r.ber of slat:lS 'Chat he has ::o qive her before .1-t quali!:ies for a divorce. have been in court a n~~~er of t:.i~es - -r think 1 have been in court about four or five hu.'1dred times for divorce cases so I have seen just about everyt..~ing that ::an possi:!Jly ::orne across ~ne' s Zcws as ~a.r as db;orce is concerned, .and some men quite justifiably think that - not justifiably - but some men do chink that - yes, I would not ·,...ant t:o be identified with the culprits - "Chat a woman needs a few flicks every now and then just to keep her i!'l line, and -::hat i:: you only :.it her five or six times durl.r.g the course of the :narriage c!lac is quice .all. right and chere is an el.emem:; in our papulation who believe chat.. iiell, ! suggest chat ::hey would do 'Nell, t!'J.ose people ·,...auld do well to ::ead this bill and cheir '"'ives .,...auld do '"'ell to read the bill, ei: .. her ::!'le marriage is goi:.g ".:O sur,;i•Je by, in this case, che husband refcr:ni::g hi.::1self and ::leaning ciJ? :tis acc a:: the wife would :wail of ::he provisions of ~!'lis ;;.c-c and star~ a ~ew li::e. :: ·..;as of th-2 opinion, or!.c;inally, when I s.:..w this bill, that it ·,...as a !:!ill that was brol!ght f:::r,...ar:i by -:::..e '11cmen libbers and it '"'as being ::hr..1s-:: iown the c=:.r:::ats of us poor defenseless men. !hat was ~y male reaction ::a it before read it.

I ~ave read it on a n~~er of occasions. discuss:.ons of i::, es:;ecially '"'ith the female :~embers of our =aucus ,..·ho will be :.eJ.r::i, '-!ndoubt£<dly, ::n chi.s bill, and I must say that ! a~ i::t complete agreemen-c '"'ith all sections of ::he bill, ;?ar-::icD.larly a change ::hat has been ::laCe i:t :.he bill i:1 5ec":ion 35, as it is ~uite could :1ot ::oncract out of t~.e :::~a::.r:.:non:.a: heme ;:rcvis:.cns. :'!1ac ices 2441.

~-Jovember 3, 1979 Tape No. 968 GH-2 :.-!R • .ST.;GG: away with ':he possibility - well, i:: is ah:ays a possibility - but ':he SJOSsi.bility existed ur.der the ~riginal legislation which was ·,;ell debated last year :;hat:, for instance, i:!: a :nan is widowed- no, a :nan is :10t '-'lidowed, if a man's Wl.fe dies he is a widower- if he !:::ecomes a ·,;idcwer, say, at t!l.e age of 55 and, ·c~ell, owns a heme wor-ch - ::.n St. John's, I suppose, i.IOS't ncmes are ·,.;ort:h $100,000, at least $100,000 in St. John's ~~ose days, certainly $75,000 i.ICSt hones - ~1R. ~-iE..':\?.Y: ~did not sell mine (inaudible). MR.

STAGG: - and I suppose hen. members oppos1.t:e who live in St. John's, their homes will be worth a couple of hundred thousand dollars, at least. So you are looki.:tg at a :nan wir:h a matrimonial asset of 5100,000, and he is at a ?articularly ~Jlnerable stage in his life, and !.he 3ame t:.ing gees :or '"'cmen, toe, of course, a ~idow could ~e the object of 'the gold digger variety - gold digger !::eing either a :nale or a fe:r.ale - ,;et the person, IT'.a:-:ry ::hem as seen as possible and c..'len cont:.::i?e ::o bri::g about a divorce cr a set!a!"aticn ~nd 550,000 in your pocket:.

Rell, fortunately, under this act Jcu can contract out of the matrimonial home prevision. ~cw, there ~s still prcbably a :ew ::Jld fools arour:.d, because, as ::..:-,ey say, "There is !"'.O :'col like an old fool". have net qot=en to ~hat category yet :nyself, but there may :Oe scme hon. ::terr'.bers or some people in ':he ?:-evince wf:c are old fools or poten:,ially old fools. These fieople will have to ~onsiCer, if they 3re ~arrying someone of a- let us say, havi~g had a shcr~ acquai:;;.tance ·nith - 'Nhet;;.er ;:hey wan:: ':O :::ont:=ac;:: cut 8!: -:,he ~atrimonial property act.

Order, please! r= I :nighr: gi·n_~ the hen. member a chance to catch h.!.s breath, i:: b-aing Thursday ;: ·...-auld have !':ece.:.•Jed :-tot:ice of one cna.tter for debate at 5:30 •..;hen a :notion ~o adjourn .,.:..11 be deemed ::o be before ::he House, notice given by :.he han. me!l".ber for Lapoile (:1r. :-Jeary) ar::.si::g out of a :::uest:ion asked r:he hen. ::he ?:::-e:::ie::: and ::he st:.bjec<:: :he hon. ~er.be= for Stephenvl~le. 2442

~cve~~er 8, l9i9 Tape 969 !3-l :-m. STAGG: Thank you I !-'.r. speaker. You did give me a chance ':.o get :::~y l::re3.t:h. A:n I supr;:,seC. ::o .:=eassess 1",ow long I am gci~g to speak on this bill? I am sort o£ running out of :naterial. But ! •..;ill restate tr.at the provision in the .;ct,

section 35 •,.;hich is ii£.:erent .:rem the previous

section 35 of the P..ct t.hat: was before this ~ouse last £pring does take away to scme extent the possibility of unjust enricl-..nent or unconscionable action ~rcvideC. r,!J.at -:he 9arty ::akes 3.d·.rantage of -:.:-.e bill. But l suppose :-.c legislature yr.,. did not mention 36 But I will deal with

section 36,I think. No legislature in the world can save a person ·who ·..rants to rr:ake a fool of ll.:.."ltself or herself. 3ut at least in this case it gives you the oppor~unity of avoiding such a pitfall.

Section 36.; my han. friend frcm Grand 3a.nk \~1!'. Tl".ornsl asked ::ne to have a leak at it. Sec".:ion 36, "fl. minor w'ho has capacity to contract marriage may enter i.:.to a marriase contract or separation ~greement '.:hat is acproved by the ::curt.". :: .suspect that: in due ;::curse •,;e ::nay :-:ave an amendme:-.t: to that ~articu:ar

section cf the Act .:m. S'!'AGG: 1S. VERGE: .\!E, STAGG: i.f it is >JhOWTl (Inaudible) . ! am getting :tty orders here. I have been passed a note by my cclleagu~ frcm Hurn.ber E:ast (;·:s. 'lerge). She is i..'"ldicating si":e ta.s :1dditional in£o~aticn concer~ing ~he age of ~ajority 3nC ~he ~apa.city to ma.~ry. ~ am qoing <::o leave <:hat: to her •;~h~:~ she deals with it.

Anyway we are dealir:g •.ti th sect:.on ..:;¢, a separation ag:::ee:.~ent that is approved by the court. ~ expect ;.;ill not :::e ;,ec:essar:. 3ut : -.:hinK: in the short rem ':hac i'.: is a cr.e ·nay or ::r.e o::her l::y that. ::t is an 5dditi.onal pr:itection, !'e.ally, and wh1.le it ~ear . .s t:usiness .:or ':''f hen. :rienC :1nd :-:is ::olleagues :1ere :;n 2443

Nove~er 3, 1979 Tap~ 969 IB-2 ~1R. ST.;GG: I.Juck·.-.~or<::h Street, it may :nean some !::usiness :cr us :~wral practitioners as •,.;ell. : do not: ext:ect it is going to be a major c:cntri!:::utor to cnes over:1ead !":.owever. :<r.r. Speaker, I ·..,-auld also like to, at this time 1 indicate the manner in whic?-1 our judges of the Supreme Court :-ave dealt: ·,;ith divor:e and t:t":e ":!ivision of mat:-in-,onial assets o·.rer t!1e past eleven years. So far as ! am concerned "'e have in our o:ourt ·1ery wise judges.

There are prc•:is:Lcns present::ly under <:he divorce .:o..ct of ca;,ada whereby a petitioner or a respondent !':'lay be given a lu."!lp sum determination of that person's contribution to the mar:-~age. They are net given the ;ower ':.o actually r:;hysically divide assets nor are ~hey giv~~ the power to order that one or the other of the spouses may have ,?ossession 0f the matrin10nial ho~; never<:heless, ::hey have 'Jery s..':rewdly, in sene cases, but always ·,;isely, given thei.= ~ecisions whe:-eby t!1e desired result usually came about.

Far instance,~n ':be case ~fa di•.risi:::n a£ the :nat:.rimon.:.,al asse<:s, a lmnp sUI:l de::errnir,aticn is quite -:':l.:-:en :nade t:-.at is approximately hal.: and !"lalf of the assets of the ~arriage. The business assets of the T.arriaqe ~ave always been dealt with in a dif=erent manner 1 and t~is bill envi~ions a s~~iliar dis~asiticn, ':~~ l::usiness assets ·,.;hereby either :1 husband ::)r 3 .,.,.i.::e :nay ha•.re assets ::!"!at are basicall'f growir.g up ir.de:;-e:-.dent of the :na=ri.age. They are- -:!ealt 'Nith in a different •,.;ay.

I do !'lOt thini: the occasion '-'lll ever arlse where a husl:::and or a ·wi:.:e will !"'.ave his ex-husband or •,;i:e :o;itting on his or b.e:r Soard. of Directors o:: a ccm:;any. 3ecause r ::~.ink chat that. scr": of thing . ...,.auld be relati·.rely intolerai:le and cer':ainly ':he ccmpany '-''OU.!.d qo under •Jery socn a:-:e.:: the :7ta~riage w"'?nt t.mC.c.r. So this scr:.

:lovernber ~, 1979 ?ape :.;o. 970 GH-1 :1r. Speaker, the point raised by my colleague concerning a ;::ouple of lawyers in the Province who •,.,ranted ':O have some .:..nput. into this bill before :·londay, or ·,.,rhatever, as : :mderst.ar.d it, there '"as plenty of oppor'::un.J..t.y given everybody i:1 t..'"lis ?:::evince, la'..rjers and others, :.o :::1ake their :eelings !<."town about what they ~anted in this bill. I :::1uch confess that Cid not: avail :lf t:hat opportunity :nyself to ~ake ny feelings knc.,.:n.

If other gen c l.e!!'.en, !.n t:-.e legal :;ll:ofe ss ional c::.specially, ·.:ho ;:onside::: that they have something to add, 'Nish to do so, I would suggest that: there has been notice for quite some time t.!"lac t.his g?vernment. was go.J..ng to get in?alved in -:!1e ll".atrimcnial _?rep-arty matter. As a ~attar of fact, as I recall, i': was a rallying cry during t:he alec':ion of 1979, that appeared on t.b.e :nanifesto of this ;::arty, ':hat:. ,>~e ·,.,re.::-e getting involved wi':!1 the matrimonial propert.y law. So any lawye.::-s i:1. t.he Province who have not nade chei.::- submission, !>!?...

COLLINS: The doctri:vO\ of ·..;hat? La.c!-J.es, 1-a-:::-h-e-s, whL::h .:.s .:.f you "-e9t your mouth shut for too long you will :i.Ot be heard. Another poi::t is t.::at ·,.;e .are here as - tlnaudi'::.llel you to (i:-.audiblc). 3Cf!E !~ON. Y1;:'1EE?.S: oh, oh! ?ause for: (inauCiblel. Nell, :: !:lad t.:o pause ·..;hile t.::.e l:.tughter ca.'f.e in uniscn fr::m ::.he ct!:le: s.t.de :.here. ?ass ::he laws. !:: i.s :1-ot.: <::he :..aw Sccie-cy c:Jf :lewfcundlar.d :.:!'.a:: ;:asses :~.at ar.C : a.':l :-toe say:.r.g :.hat ':hey :--.ave :-:oc, but.: ~y lear:;.ed ::olleague .2445

~ovembe:: a, 1979 Tape )io. 970 GH-2 :-t..tt. ST.;GG: in existence :or a lang ti~e. r: ~here are obvious de:?iciencies ·,;e >:tight consider arne:~.ding u:. So, it is high time, I guess, t..i.at eve::ybody in New:fouttdland woke U? to the realities of the deficiencies in the law and Ehis bill is going co remedy some of them. Cndoubtedl:r over the 7ears there ·,;ill be a certain nuw~er of amendments to it, thank you. ~1R. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the D;::positicn. ~rz. J;...!1!ESON: Mr.

Speaker, it is nat my intention to take a great deal o: the time of the ~ouse ~ith rega=d to this ~~asure for t"Wo reasons. First of all, as my lear::.ed ::olleague :::om Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms} seated earlier, we are, of course, suppor'=ive of this l.;;gislaticn and see no par:.icular reason why :::here needs to be any prolonged :!abate on i.t, ::.lt..'1cugh I do believe -:hat everyone who wishes to have his or her say certainly ought to have it, but ! wanted to get on the :-ecor:i and inC.ic:3.te -:.o :rou at ':-'lis sc:age in :.he game :hat:. it is cer:ai:1ly r.oc: our .lntention ::o pro.:i.or:g ::he ::!ebate ur,.necessarily. !-!avi:~g said ::.at., r -also '#ant :::o record :ny own ;;ersonal and quite ern::ht.:.siastic sup:;::or: .for the general principles of <:.his legislation.

I say that as someone 'Nho, ! ':.hink the record ·..;ill ::eveal, ;-.,as had a good deal of concern about ':~e qui;:e shocking i.nequaliti2s t::.i.at: :.ave exi.st:.ed in a ·.rariet.y of ·.,;ays and 'Hhich continue co e:dsc in a wf:cle ::ange of fields be":.ween c:.he sexes and 'Nn.ich a::e ~u.!..te :..na;;:pr:Jpr.late and quite cut of ::me with modern day -:.hi;:k:..ng ar.d with, ·..;hat can only !:le describe<:! as, common sense.

Therefore, over :he Jears - as ! say the record will indicate that make sure =na::: suc!1, what might be descr:!.Zed as lcr.gstanding prejudices as ! could eliminate :n 3-n'[thi::.g i:~. '"'hich 1 •,;as i:l.vol·u:d, is 3. :nat-::.er :a.r,d a subJect:. 'Nhich is lor.g cverdue. >ty icn. colleague from Stephenville \Mr. Stagg) Z446

Tape No. 971 RZ<l 1-:!.R. D. JA.:·UES011: I oui~e agree wi~~ h~ about, so~e of the t."l.ings which he said · .. lith regard to this attitude that: tends ~o prevail. I am not sure what ~ .. e histori~al roots of it are , and r was researching some th.ings t.he ether day fer Some writi.rlg r am dob.g, and it really is quite amazing, when ore gees back to t.~e Six~eenth and tre seventeenth. century in th.e history of Newfouncllancl in particular.

How indescribably ~ad the attitudes were wich regard to ~omen and with regard to tb.e lack of right:.s. 'f'ie not only have to t:."link about what. 1:..'le !·linister of Justice said this afternoon, because even by 1925, ·..-e had progressed quite incredi=ly =rom what the original beginnings were, here in the Cit:J' of St.. John's.

I commend some of t.,e early reports of the clergy who CeB.e to ~ewfoundland in its fo\Jnding period and ::he conditions and t .. '1e circumstances that t.~ey found as they ::ravelled about, but especially, indeed, one would ;c.::.r::.aps be a little surprised to discover, in what was generallY regarded as the most progressive part of t.\e Islar~, namely, t.he ancient cit.y of St..

John 1 s, So. therefore, from t.'>at point of view, and qiven my stror.g vi..ews on t.'>is matter, I a::t fully supportive and my colleagues are as well, And r say there .,.,.as anot.'"l.er reason., anci it is,. of course, ttAt ~~s matter was debated at considerable length, at the lase sesslon of ::he Souse, So r want ::a leave it at. ~'lat.& ! k.'"l.ow, however, that it. is il:tpcrtant ::hat. the ccnment.s of ~y coleague frcm Grand Sank (!ir. '!'horns) be t.aken into account, :.n a ?Urely t.ec!"lnical ser:se, .,.,.it.h regard ::o ~'1e ..mole ~estion of ..... :-.e':..",er ...,.e are doing the right: t:.."linq on wna::. ~ call ::.'1e s.-nall pr::..nt. ! :-.ave b.:: en sreaking, ever t:.'lese last days, ,,...l.t:.h a :'lUJ:r.ber of ;U.ghly respected people not :::nly 1 by ~he ..... ay, in t."\e legal profession, and people 'ri'no are as supportive of t."le general concept of ::.:U.s as ~ am.

And thin~. before we move into clause by clause, :.nat some cpport:lnit.:; 3:J.ould be given :or 'J.S layman, :.f you wi.sh or la:twcpen i:f that is an a;::pro:;?riat.e phrase, to hear from some of our And ! want to spell out, i!'l a li:.t:.le ::lOre precise f-::::r:n, .,..hat. I am qc::.::ing at. here, ~cause it is a reitera:.- ion ::Jf what ·.;as said r:.y ~"l.e hon, :nemter for ;;rar.d Sank (;1r. Thoms), <:hat we ·~ulci :::ove ahead of course, .,.,.i::.h .o;econd reaciing of t:. .. l.s bill, wi..:::::::.out. ar;y di.fficulty. 2447

~ovember a, 1979 Tape No. 971 AA2 t1R. JA.'i!E.SON; It •.tould. then l:e si:nply a matter of the House Leaders, agreeing as to just when. !t may be ten days, it may oe two weeks, it may be goodness ~nows, perhaps, a week would be ade~uate. But 1o0hat ! am saying, in answer to the han. mem.Cer for Stephenville (:-tr.

Stagg}, when be says," t.."lere :tas Ceen a.tnpl.e opportunity" 1 that is true, ar.d there is no question ~~t many amendments, and many changes and improve- ments have OOen rJ.ad.e in t..'ois legislat:~on. ·..;e are not suggest.:i...-.g, select: =c~~tt:ees, we are not suggesting some kind of parade of witnesses, or six ::-.onc."'IS hoLJt 1 or an:rth.ing of that nature.

Ar.d indeed, ! almost :.m scareu to venture into t..~is legalese that: one hears about the bill, but ! am a little concerned that 'Ne may find, and ! realize it can be amended lat:er, and that is always open to this House;but we may find t:.h.at ti'.e i:est draf~­ :ten .t.n the world and the best group in :he ""crld, have omit:-:ed, or not: thought of some part:icular point, and t.hat: is tl'.e only reservation. r ~der- stand t.1.at ~he discL-.guished and hen • .iady from Cor:..:lr Brook ( Lynn Verge) nas some answe.re on some oi the point: · .. ·:a:::.l ·...:ere raised a..'"lC ':.'lis, I :...':1 su.re will be welcor.:~ed by us.

Sut: there are t:hese questions about mi.."lors, and. there are ·.rarious questions of that kindt There is,I t..'link, a whole range of :.bese kinds of questions ;..·hich we can proW.bly a.r..swer among curselve;o- in :.hird reading or on cl..tuse by c:lause 1 That: is not: ':..'1e point: ::hat am seeking to :nake, ,:Jr ::::..'-:at: •.te are seeking t.:J ::take ac t..'1is cime J i-: is si,:::ply :..~at: in organiz::..ng t:he tusiness of t.'1is :-touse, :..'"lac once we hil;':e given second reading, and t.'1e.t :-:~ay ):e Tuesday, or '..,rheneve.r it ccnes, or:ce that:. has been done, t.'1en ! suggest: t.."lat when lea.rr:ed arcd distinguished ladies a::~ gentlemen, as 'Hell as o~r.ers ...-no have ,;;. very real i:J.te~est in t.!1l.s ::1ea.su::~ .:1.re looking at ,'ftat ! ::al~ :::.t-.e fine _;:rint -lnd say, What does :.."lis :ne.::.:-.?

I t..1.ink i:. .t.s .:..:::port.ant f:..tll unders-:.anciing of •.that it :neans Z448

~loverr..ber 3, 1979 Tape ~lo. 972 !.S-1 !<!?.. JA:.'1!ESCN: and that is the reason why :'l'.y colleaque frcm Grand Bank Otr. 'rhcms) made his _Faint about letting some -::ir::e elapse. i-Je are not proposing any kind of for~~- !£ nobody answers then ~he law to which the ~on, menber for Stephenville (:1r • .St.s.gg) made ;:-eference will unquestionably applJ. But ! say, ar".d.

I ::;uspect it nay be the experience o£ other :ne.:nbers of this House, that in these last :ew days t:.hey too :'lave encountered people '.vhc ::ave .:'ull supper-:: for :.he :;ill, full support for everything that its totality er:'.i::races but •..the are asking, wi'.at see::1ed to ~e t:.o Ce, legi<:i::::ate ~estions as a lay~an.

And perhaps i£ we had, ! repea~, just a few days in 'Nhich these ::hings could tle recorded 1 then it might help '..15 ·..tith the ":.hird =eading process and -:he clause by cb.use study. important ':.'hat: I do so, that when we get into this next phase ·.;e :::ust :ake our r~spor.sibilities as m~~bers and I, of course, and ~y colleagues are qui't:.e, quite ?re?ar-=d to do so.

Ar.d if in the course o:: second ~eadir.g it is ~ossible to resolve all cf these questions ::~a:: have been ~=ised Oy various people -::!'.en, of ccurs:e, no di::-=:icult.i.;:,.s arise whatever. 3ut I wish I could be as sure t~at •,;e ha•;e indeed done in :he totality o~_;:csi te. : am ::ot at: all sa tis£ ied -::hat. it:. is er:ough to say, 'dell ::ou io:ncw it is not -r think the hen. :ni.nister of :ustice 'i4r. ::tt.enhei:nerl hu.~anitarian anC. ·Jery 3]'1npathetic job. :t is -:=ue ':hat it _ _, ::ct. '..:rit::en in s-::one t:ut. a:ty of '.lS '..tho had any ex;:erience ·,.;ith complex leqisl3::ior; will knew chat tmless you do a •J'e::y 'Nork:nan-like job and a=e clear as co '.!hat your intentions are in tl:e clat!se t:y clause s:::..:.Cy, '"8U suCdenl:/ fi::d ':hat. you :nay have c=eated S.i=£iculties or hardships cr unanti::ipated ;:rcbls·r-.s 3-t:. the ot:!-'.er end of ':he lir;e ;-;hich it is ::ot ~uit.e as si:1pl7 2449

:.'ape ~:o. 972 IB-2 of ~he House to e~sure that i£ there are ~hose who have legitimate FQinc:s ::o make ~hat. they make the:n ::C.!.Cwn to the goverr.ment, that they r::ake the:n known i:-t some '-lay or o:::;er. :t is conceivable 1 incidentially, that the!'e -..;ill not be any or :na.'1y.

But r believe that •Ne :-,'Ould all feel more satis::ied at the end of this process - and it · ... 'Ould ::e what t..'1e ?re."nier 01r. ?eckfordl !-las called, an historic dccu:nem: - if we did the best that: is humanly possible tc ask ourselves ~hese rat::er difficulty questions ::hat. ha\fe =een _?Csed to :::e by 2eople '.tho:n ! respect.

And :: e:nphasL:::e, once again, :nany of them are fully supportive of what is ~eing sought here, But it is just a question of saying, let us not be so confident among oursel·Jes as fifty-t·,.to indi•.riduals,or fi.=-::y- one cr :..~e>.rer :::any cf us tb.e.re are at the present :noment, that we t!'link we have 'covered all the bases, that we l-.ave 1 in fact,given an appartun!ty for the public to be heard and that there is no one out <:.here •.the :night 'Nell ::e able to :.denc:i.=:: something in a few '"'eeks !egislat:'..lre ~-Jill k:-tcw that thls san happen, that you suddenly find tha:: you have left ::uc or omitted sor::e worcl ~r ot:her t!"lat is going to :nake an encr:nous difference ar.d it dces not corr:e to light until .:.n i.ndividual or group c::f individuals find ~he;:;.selves hao,ring to pet:.::.:..cn t:te House -:.o get c;u:: from under '.that ·,.e n€ver intended to Ze the:-e perfectly clear and the intentions are shared ':Jy vir:::ually, I O.."rl sure . .:.11 ::terr.bers of this House ar:d by a large sPgmen:: c: ::.he put.!.i::. :'~at is not ::.he diffic'..llt:y.

I thi~k en a bill of this historic ::1agnitude that we should be as C0rtair: ·.tb.at ·.:e r:ave :nutuall;r set out ~o do. The hor .. :·1iniste!" of Educa~ion. Z450

~love=tber 3, 1979 Tape ~lo. 972 IB-3 Hear, !!.ear! .'tr. Speaker, it is 'di th a great. deal ~f pride and pleasure that I rise to SFeak in support of this bill. 2451

:1avenbe:: 5, 1979 Tape 973 EC - 1 Y.S VERGE: ! have a very intense personal convic-:.J.on in S:.lppor<;. of t:..'lis reform '"'hic:.'l : regard as long, long overdue at1.d ·o~h.ic.'"l. I regard as a :;,asic measure ::o ::1eet. t...'le :1eeds of ::.e =~~:~es of our ?rovince. I had personal exposure <;.o ~any of <;.."\e injustices .,...hic.'1 :esult.ed f:::om t.. .... e present law.

Fro:n l9i3 until t.."le proV!.nCl.al election t."'l.is year, : practiced law :.n Corner Brook a.t1d had a fair fatr.ily practice ir. \·•itiC:'1 I came J.::.t.o ccnt.ac'::: '"it:-.'1. people trying t.o cope •,.tit-'1 property problerr.s ::esult.ing from deat.'1. of spouses as well as :e:sult.ing from :narital problerr.s, sepa::at.ions and cii'.'O!:'Ces.

Over tile pasc four or !'ive years, along 'Hith ::.any w·oren in Coner 5rock and in other part.s of t!.1e ?::evince, t.:ried to press t..'1.:: government to bring in C.1.is refor:n measu::e, -:ne Status of -,.;omen groups of t:.:1e ?rovince "ere pa=ticula.:rly act.i•:e in spea..:.:.:o..ng cu:::: en t.:.e need for t.."lis ::efc::=::, and I would like ~ mention ~"tat sit.-:ing in ~'1e gallerJ new are t.:ae ?resi:::ent. and ot:::.her r.:et<'.bers o£ t..'le .iew.fcuncUand St.a':::US of licr.en Co.:r.cil which .l.S Cased in St. • .:lchn's.

SOl-I.E Rm:;. :1Et-!:SE?.S: nea::, hear! ;-.G VE?.GE: I !:.~ink t.'>at t..'1ey, along .,..i t:.."l :nembers of ·.,-ar..en' $ col.!!lcils in Central .<.:.,.,'founClanci, Corner Srock anC. :.&>raC.or ·,.;est., deserve a lot of credit for calling to :..'ie a::::.:m':::ion of. ;;ove::u".ent: ':.."'.e need for >::his :neasure. Sha.me! sha::-.e! Z45Z

:<ovec-.Cer 3, l9i9 Tape 973 EC - 2 and at. t:.'1.at ti!nti!, as •,.,rell as on ::tant ot.her occa:;ions, in verbal and ·,.,.rit.t::en :om, t..'v~ Jpposi"t.ion members 3.Ssured r.:e :."lat:: t..'"'ley . .,.ere one hundred percent: ~ehind the reform :neasures t..:tat:: we are advocat:i=:~g. So I ;.;as very !i.appy t::o hear today - fiear, hear! - t..'lat the hon, !:he men-.ber for Grand Ea.'"lk C·lr. :'hotr.

s) a.'1d :."le :.eacie:: of t::.'1e Cpposit.ion are no.., suppor-.;.:.:ng t:.'lis bill. I ::lUSt. say 1 ";.:hen I sat: here in t:."le gallery last ~lay ·.;i1en -:.:.-te predecessor ~ill '"'as i::.lei:~g d.ebat.ed, I had some doubts a.Oout. t.":e sincen.t.y of :.he s~port:: for t."lis reform ::~easure on t.b.e part: of t."te Opposition !:'.ett'bers, but I ,.,.as .;reatly reassured t.cday. !>lr. Speaker, :r,a-:;..:i:cnial propeny law deals wi~h ::ights to property as bet:'Heen spouses, It: is relevant ;;;.t three s~ag8s of ~~rried life ~~ci t.:.l.in.k :.his Cas t::o be u.'1cierlin~ci.

First. a.'1d foremost::, it is relevant a.~d ir..po~a.nt in t:21e course of a.'1 cngoing people ·,·no have 5pof>.en on t:.."te bill.; howeve:, ':l:i:-.i(. its significance in th<: c<.Jurse of an ;;ngoing :na::.:.J..lge is appa:eno;:. .J.t:: is i:r.~crtant. :or psyc.'l.ological reasons for Cot:h spouses t::o rea.:.ize 1:..1.a:: ':,..;..,ere is not. only iip se::vi~e Z;ut:: t."lere is also legal sanc':ion to t...1.e :::oncept. oi ::-.arriage as wi':...1. respect ':0 matrir~nial property in order ':O recognize t.."le contribution made by eac..'l spouse to a :na.rriage" 1 and in sec-::ion seventeen, . .,.nich says, "?he purpose of t:..:1i.s part::" - ?arc:. t.'"'O• '"'hic..;1 C.eals 'Nit-.'1 bu.si:h;ss a.•C ::ta-::r.:.monial asse':s - "is t.o ::ecog.ize t.:.'1at:: ci1i!d. ::a.:e, i"'.ousencld mar.agc~nt:: :..'-:at ':."l.ere ~s a Joint ccnt::.:i;;)U:t:J..on ;.-;y t:!ac..'1 of ':...le spouses, ::.:.r.a..'lcial ar.C.

Z453

!'love.:rJ:er 3, .!.979 Tape No. 974 IB-1 :.-!S. 'iERr"":£: t:J an ;;:qual divisicn of ':he ::1a-::.ri..."'.'.onial assets acquired Curing t.~e course of the narriage.'' So I think i<:: i;;; i.:nportant for ;::.arried couples in our ?rovince to realize tb~t the law new formally reco~nizes -:his concept of equality in marriage regardless o£ the role .followed ::;y the respective parc:.."1ers, regardless of ·..;hether each partner is earning :nor.ey.

It is also i.."!lportant for wives who, on average, are :i.n a markeCly worse financial position than husbands. ~'.any "Hives C.evcte their full ti:r:e to household :nanase.rnent: and child care. '!'1-!ose 'HhO work outside the r.ome fer pay on average earn only about 60 per cent: of what t;,eir tusbands earn. This refor:n 'Hill -;ive some :::easure of financial securi.ty to those ·-.rives which is i:npcrt:.ant net cnl~;" for psychological ::easons but also when it cernes t.o getting a charge account, getting a charge card.

Alsotf:cm my experier:ce in law practice, : came across one case in particular which stands out in :ny :nind '.:here there •,;as an or:goir.g marris.ge, relatively happy, '#here, sadly, the ~usband t.ad 3 severe drinking preble!:\ which led to financial difficulties . .:'1t one period of financial ;:cressure, ::::te husband t)::ought to bail hir:~sel£ f::.r.ance -::cmpany t.c .::.r:::an;e :Cor ':hi.s and the :nort:gage i::.st!:"uct_ions •,.;e:::e sent t0 :ne. Ir.it:ially, the :norc:g.:1qe ::ompany wanted <:he wife :::o sign the :::crtgar;e. She, howe·1er .::efused to do <:his.

Then I ::hecked <:he title and it turr.cd au:: tl:at the title ·Has registered in only the husband's r.a::~e, ;;u.lte a typi::al sit;lat:icn !..n cur ?::evince. The :nor-:.;acc;, :;or..panJ' decide-:! dane. Af':e.:: about: a :;ee.:: --:te h:;sbar:d Zell into ar:::ea_::-s .=.nd an e~j?lcye0 of. :::'1e !:i:1.ance cc:n;:any •..tent out: -:o the ncme, knocked en t:l":e door ar:d Z454

~icver-..ber 8 , 19 7 9 Tape ~lo, 97 4 IE-2 ~S • VE;?,GE : k.."l.owlecige or her consent. So ! t"b.ink that the signi::!.cance a: this reform bill is L"1'1portant. for ongoing ma=ri.ages which are wore cr less l:appy. Secondly, it is ver? significant and relevant at the stage when marriage iz terminated through death. This is scmething •..;hich will happen to :nest cf cur mar:dages. '!'he bill provides ::or a mere equitable distri.butior. of matritnonial property upon t!-.e C.ea th oi one 1 s spouse.

And thi:::-dly, anC. this is the stage of a r::arriage whL:h ~as recei•;ed most attention, discussion and debate, it i.s rele•.:ant at a point which happens to, luckily and happily relatively :ew ~ar=iages in the ?r~rince, where there is termination by reason c£ _;;epara ti.cn or di ·;orce. :.r;;; .• CHAI?.MP_"l O·!R. SI~S): Order, please!

I do :10t 'Nish to interrupt the hen. ::1inisc.er J.nd s{1e may ,;::ontinue wi.-::h her rer:1arks when the debate J.S ::3ised at anothe.:- t.!...'!le1 Cut this beL-:.g Thursday, it ::eing five-thirty, a mot:ion t:o adjourn is dee:ned to ::e before the House and the matter fer debate raised by t:he hen. member fer La?cile (~r. ~eary) is the question of offshore oil and oil pri~ing.

The ~on. ma~~er for LaPoile. :--lr. sr:eaker' :: o;.·as dissatisfied •,;it:h the ~nswers giver, to my q'-.!EStions to the hon. the ?re..'Tlier (Yr. ?e;:icfordl t~is a.fter:tccn in ccnnccticn ·..;i -:.l-1 his ;:clic:r of supF:art.lng Al!:er~."i in ::ri!'!qing t~e ci:!. from ::,i"""..at: ;:r::vi:-.cE! up to wcrld levels. ! :=.m cot -:he ?::o;mier 's answers, of course, :mt !. 2.m a!. so net quit.c sure whethez- cr net t.!"le point t:hat: :: made ~;;;gist.er;o;d ·,.rith :T.e!f.be.:-s of the 2ause 1 Z455

Nov. 8, 1979 Tape :io. 975 !~B-1 :.!R. ~ARY: especially the ~embers of ~,e press gallerf who think ~~at the government's taking a neutral position on Petro-Can is more L~portant than ~~e Premier of ~,is Province taking a position, get~ing in bed with Prew~er Lougheed and ~,e Government of Al~erta, the ?remier of Alberta who stated that Canadians should ~e left to freeze in the dark. <:hat.is t.~e r::olicy that this Goverrr.,ent is supporting. You re"" memter t.;e licence plates, Mr. Speaker, t.,at came down to Nova Scotia a couple of years ~ac~. On the licence plates was 'let t.'1e bastards f:ree:.e'.

That is the policy that this government is supporting, Supporting t.'1e wealthiest province of Canada to build up a multi-billion dollar heritage fund at the expense of t.'1e poor people of Canada.

That is ~'1e policy ~1at ~,e Premier and this go'Je.rnmen t is supporting and the ne~s media t:hi~~ it is ~cr~ i~ortant to report that ~~e gove~ment is neutral on ?~tro-Can whi~~ is a federal responsibility, ~~an report w~at ~,e ?remier and the government of t.,is Province are supporting a premier out in Alberta who is out to destroy e~nfederation, who will do ~ore damage t:o CanaCian unity than Rene Levesque will ever Co, by socking it to the cons~ers wit.'1 huge increases in oil ;:;rices, especially col".sumers in Easter:t Canada, ~Jc~, the ?remier uses t11e argument ,which is a myth, )well, maybe sometime Cown t~e read ~en, fifteen, a hundred years from new, we will Ciscover oil of shore, in commercial quantities, and ':.!len w·e ·.;ill get ""orld prices.' That is the argument :-:e is using.

Well,:naybe, ~r. Speaker, one of us in t!l.is House will win a million dcl!ars hon. gent!ernan is grur.bling the future of New·t"our,C.land, is r:ur.ishing :=ecple '>~ho a.:-e in the lew income brac.ll::et, ::;eople on fixed i::ccmes. These increases are devastating, not only ::an t!".e working ::1an :.at: cope '":it:h i.t, bet ::;eop:e on fi:<ed inccees, and people in the lew 2456

Nov. 8, 19i9 Tape No. g75 ~.E-2 !>!R. ~.fEAF.Y: income bracket cannot cope ~~d are becoming discouraged and disillusioned at ~~e poli~/ of ~~is government supporting Premier Lougheed and his goverrJnent to up the oil prices four dollars a barrel for the next four or five years, on t..l:e gamble ~~at we may hit the jackpot, we may get the pot of gold,sometime,at the end of the rair.bow.

The oil corr,panies keep ':.elling us - t.l:e Premier a:1.d his Minister of !·Hnes and Energy and spokesman for t..~e administration keep saying, 'Qh, it is out there boy, we are encouraged, hydro-carbou.' The oil companies keep saying, ~ake it easy we do not know if t..~ere is oil out there or not.

We will not ~~ow for anot..~er year, and if it is there it is going to take us ten years to get it ashore: So for the next ten years we pay the world prices, the people in NewfounClattd that had the second lowest per capita income in t.i.e ~hole of Canada, Where we have record une~playment, and ~~e highest cost of living in Canada. That is ~~e ~olicy ~~at this government is advocating, ~r.

Spea~er, and r claim that it is wrong, and ! am hoping t."l.at the Government of Canada .,..ill knock some sense i::to our ?::emier's head 'Hhen he gees up to Ottawa on Monc!ay and say, ;:,ock, Mr. ?::emier of ~!ewfoundlatl.d, we are going to ccn:pro~ise, and we hope that you ·.rill gc along wit.."t us~ ::ecause that is t."le only way obviously the hon. gentleman is going to change his hard-headed ~ind. He seer..s t:o be dug in, he has get the hard line. In the ~eantin:e, :1::. Speaker, may say, also, bat:. everything else in t..~e Province is suffering, :-to fishery policy, t..''H!

Minister of Fisheries fired out on his ear, ::o Fishery :Can 9oa::d, no develoFment, no mining develop­ ment, no fishery policy, ::o forest.!"] de·;elcpment, everything else is gene dc1.o111 t..~e Crain, the hon. memt:er is gene oil crazy. The her:. gentleman has been playing oil sheik f~r the last year or ~Nc. Eve~J- thing else in sewfoundland is su!fering, ~~e economy is in a state of c!",aos, . ..,.!:ile t..l:e hen. gentlema~ leaves ~he impressicn >;..'!at some 2457

Sov. 8, 1979 Tape No. 9i5 HR. NEARY: morning you are going to fling your window open and the oil is going to come flawing into your bedrDc~ and you are going to go out and ~;ere is a cadillac out in your yard. What: a foolish policy, !-!r. Speaker, nc 'HOnder ! am dissatisfied with the hen. gentleman,.s answers. ~!R. SP:::AY..ER {S!~·t~) has expired. Z458 The hen. member's time

:1R. SPE.\.KER: (But:t:) ?RE..~IER 2 EC:KFCP.D: Tar:;e :-Ia. 376 GH-1 7he hen. the P=emier. am extremely disappointed in che quest.ions that: have ~een asked today~ I wish ::hat t:he govermr.ent had an: cpportu."J.i"::.y :;o have a late shew as 'Nell, because I am ex