Manitoba Hansard — 23 April 1974 (Sitting 99, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-99

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXI No. �19 2:30p.m., Tuesday, April 23rd, 1974. First Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans-Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Man. ROM 1XO ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin PI., Winnipeg R3J 3LB Bl RTLE·RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OGO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova BRANDON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 222a Princess Ave., Brandon R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon.

Ben Hanuschak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova CHARLESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1L5 CHURCHILL Les Osland NDP 66 Radisson Blvd., Churchill ROB OEO CRESCENTWOOD Harvey Patterson NDP 97a Garwood Ave., Winnipeg R3M 1N7 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova EMERSON Steve Derewianchuk NDP V ita, Manitoba ROA 2KO FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow NDP Cranberry Portage, Man. ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. as Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE Lloyd Axworthy Lib. 132 Osborne St.

S., Winnipeg R3L 1Y5 GIMLI John C. Gottfried NDP 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone; Man. ROJ OTO INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO LA VERENDRYE Bob Banman P.�. Steinbach, Man. ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NDP 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man.

ROG 1KO OSBORNE Hon. I an Turn bull NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski NDP 23 Coral berry Ave., Winnipeg R2V 2P2 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. 135 - 16th St. S.W., Portage la Prairie, Man. R1N 2W5 RADISSON Harry Shafransky NDP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1WB RHINELAND Arnold Brown P.C. Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RI EL Donald W. Craik P.C. 3 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3Ya RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, O.C. P.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. lnglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J.

Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova RUPERTSLAND Harvey Bostrom NDP Manigotagan, Manitoba ROE 1 EO ST. BONIFACE J. Paul Marion Lib. 394 Gaboury Place, Winnipeg R2H OL4 ST. GEORGE Hon. Bill Uruski NDP 10th fir., 330 Portage Ave.,Wpg. R3C OC4 ST. JAMES George M inaker P.C. 31a Ronald St., Winnipeg R3J 3Ja ST. JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, Q.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson NDP 41a Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NDP 26 Hemlock Place, Winnipeg R2H 1L7 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam NDP Ste.

Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova SOURIS KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Man. ROL 1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova THOMPSON Ken Dillen NDP 1171 Westwood Dr.,Thompson RaN OGa TRANSCONA Hon.

R us sell Paulley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Man. ROM OZO WELLINGTON Philip M. Petursson NDP 6a1 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 WINNIPEG CENTRE J.R. (Bud) Boyce NDP 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg R3E OR5 WOLSELEY I.H. Asper Lib. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o•clock, Tuesday, April 23, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 2685 M.tt. SPE AKE .tt: Before we proceed I should like to direct the -attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we hav e 30 st udents of Grade 11 sta nding of th e Spri ngfield Collegiate . These st udents are under the direction of Mr. Smythe . This scho ol is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Sp ringfield, the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs . We also hav e 60 st udents, Grade 9 st anding , of the Sisl er School.

These st udents are under the direction of Mr. J. Swerhun and Mrs . P. Peterso n. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster, the Minister ot' Mines, Resources and Environmental Management, On behalf of all the honou rable members, I welcome you here to tr,e Legislature. (Applause) Prese nting Petitions; Reading and .tteceiving Petitions; Prese nting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. Tf,e Minister of No rthern Affa irs . TABLIN G OF REPO.ttTS HON . .ttON McB.ttYDE (Minister of Northern Affa irs) (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker , I •d like to table an Order for Return, Order for Return No. 10. MR. SPE AKE K: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Notice s of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTION PE.ttiOD M.tt. SIDNE Y SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Opposition) (River Heights ): Mr. Speaker, my quest ion is to th e First Minister. It is really for furthe r clarification of st atements made yest erday with respect to the compensation th at would be offe red to th ose who hav e been affe c ted by the flood emergency in Ma nitoba.

And I have before me the Order -in-Council of May 13, 1970, which I believe is the basis for the explanation given by the Premier yesterday of the amount of compensation th at would be offe red to individuals who hav e been affe cted by the emergency and who wo uld be entitled to . .. MR. SPE AKE.tt: Question please . M.tt. SPIV AK: ... entitled to receive compensation. Mr. Speaker, my quest ion to the First Minister is to determine whether it is the intention of the government to follow the same formula and to only provide by way of compensation amounts si milar to th at of 1970. MR .

SPEA KEK: The Honourable First Minister. HON . EDWARD SCHKEY E.tt (Premier) (Rossmere) : Well, Mr.

Speaker, I believe I indicated yest erday th at we are procee ding by way of Order-in-Council to est ablish, or perhaps I sh ould say re-es tablish, the Flood Compensation Assessment Board, and whe n the board is es tablishe d and ac tivated, among other th ings it will be ask ed to advise us with respect to the magnitude of revision of th e formula which was followed in 1970, and I intimated yes ter day th at in all probability th ere would be adjustments upwards, us ing this formula, ho wever, as the base for revision. I don•t believe I could be more explicit th an th at at this point in time. MR.

SPIVAK: I appreciate the answer of the First Minister but 1 wonder, th en', if he could indicate whether the government will take as its minimum base the inflationary factors si nce 1970 to th e present time. MR. SCH.ttEYE n: Well precisely so , Mr . Speaker. That is th e intent. The Flood , Compensation Assessment Board will be able to advise in th at respect as well. That may well be one of th e terms of ref erence. MR . SPE AKE h: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr . Speaker, I have a quest ion for the Minister of Northe rn Af fairs .

2686 April 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (Mlt. SPIV AK cont•d) . , • ask this question at the request of Chief Gordon Lathlin. I wonder if the government will indicate whether it intends to lease office space in the proposed shopping complex to be constructed at The Pas by . • . MR . SPEAKE.tt: Order please. The Honourable First Minister state his point of order. MR . SCH.ttEYE.tt: I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the rules of the House do not permit for the mere conveying of questions on behalf of persons outside this Assembly. MR . SPEAKE.tt: The point is well taken. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR .

SPIV AK: Mr . Speaker, I• 11 rephrase the questio n. I wonder if the Minister of Northern Affair s c an indicate whether the government intends to lease offi ce space at the proposed shopping complex to be constructed at The Pas by The Pas Indian reserve? MR . SPEAKE.tt: The Honourable Minister of Northern Af fa irs . MR . McB.ttYDE: Mr. Speaker, the matter is under consideration and a decision will be made by the Department of Public Works as to which off ice space is leased to meet require ments of the government in The Pas . MR .

SPIV AK: Well then, I wonder if the Minister then can confirm that a decision has no t been arrived at at this point in time . MR . McB.ttYDE: I•m not aware, Mr . Speaker, that a decision has been arrived at, although I•m reason ably certain that a decision will be arrived at and that space will eventually be rented in that complex . MR. SPEAKE.tt: The Honourable Lead er of the Liberal Party . MR . I . H. (Iz zy) ALPE.tt: (L eader of the Liberal Party) (Wolse ley): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the First Minister - it relates to the flood warnings - perhaps if not to the First Minister, to the Minister responsible for flood control. Is it a fa ct that the government flood control people knew and advised certain municipal off icials in southern Manitoba some time in the last two weeks of March, that the present flood could be anticipated and steps should be taken and that those steps were not taken? MR . SPEAKE.tt: The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCH.ttEYE.tt: Well, Mr . Speaker, the answer to the fir st part of the question is in the aff irmative .

There have been meetings, not on ly the pass ing on of info rmation , but meetings themselves as between certain persons from the Manitoba Water Control Branch and Emergency Measures Organization with municipal off icials in a number of municipalities in southern Manitoba. I believe there was reason able satisf action that all due reasonable steps were being taken. I guess it 's possi ble to pinpoint variations in terms of steps of preparedness that were taken as between some municipalities and others, but no dramatic diffe rence I don't believe .

An d I might add further that, contrary to some suggestion that was made yester day in the media, the flood forecasting people were really amazingly accurate in the extent to which they fore cast the levels that could be anticipated this spring, and perhaps I could take this opportunity to give just an updated indication that as of this morning it is possible to indi cate that there will be, if anything, a slight reduction in anticipated crest levels and with that, roughly a foot below 1966 levels in all stretches along the Red with the exception of the Turnbull Drive- St.

Ado lphe area, and therefore it is fully anticipated that the dike systems will provde the necessary protectio n. MR . ASPE.tt: Mr . Speaker, to the same Minist er . Did the provincial off icials, or this government, through any other means take any steps to directly inform the people who would be affe cted or see to it that the municipalities did that themselves in making people aware that what is happening now was about to happen? MR . SCH.ttEYE.tt: Well, Mr . Speaker, the Manitoba flood -fi ghting plan is well under stood.

The imparting of inf ormation on the basis of the means available to the Water Control Branch and those who constitute the Flood Forecasting Committee, that inf ormation is then imparted to the municipal people in the various municipalities. This was done and the re's no reason to have any less faith in local government today than there was a month ago . MR . ASPE.tt: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minist er.

I wonder if he would indicate to us why the Government of Manitoba spent several hundred thousan d dollars communicating to the people the benefit of the tax rebate system but doesn't spend five cents indicating to the people .•• MR . SPEAKE.tt: Order please. Order please . That question is argumentative . It•s out of order because . . • .

Ap ril 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS M.tt . ASPE.tt: Well, Mr. Speaker, my question . .. MR . SPEAKE.tt: The Honourable Member for Lake side . MR . ASPE.tt: I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKE.tt: Order please. 2687 MR . HA.tt.ttY J . ENNS (Lake side): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Honourable the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Aff airs.

I wonder if the Minister would use the influences of his office to lift the suspension that was placed today on all Manitoba hogs mar keted via an agency of this govern ment in order to move, I suppose, the price of pork higher for the consumers of this province. As of today, no Manitoba fa rmer can market a hog for an indefinite period. Can the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affai rs look into this matter and assure consumers in the province of Manitoba that pork will continue to come on to the supply tables? MR . SPEAKE.tt: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Aff airs . HON.

IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, the problem raised by the Member for Lake side with regard to pork prices is one that is of course of great concern to my department, and retail prices of pork, along with retailprice so f all goods and commodities and services , are discussed between me and the Minister responsible fo r the administrative agency , in this case the Hog Marketing Board . MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, my question to the same Minister - supplementary question.

Would he condone a similar action by any private company if it wilfully withdrew its entire product off the market for an indefinite period in the hope that in such action ... ? MR . SPEAKE.tt: Order please . Order please . Order please. That questio n, too, is argumentative . The Honourable Member fo r Fort Garry . MR. L . .lt. (Bud) SHE.ttMAN (Fort Garry): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. My qu estion is to the Honourable the Minister of Labour and in his absence to the Honourable the First Minist er .

Can the First Minister advise the House whether it's correct that welfare recipients are being paid for the flood fighting work they're doing in the Greater Winnipe g area? MR . SPEAKE.tt: The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCH.ltEYE.tt: Well, Mr. Speaker, this has not been brought to my attention as being a problem at the present time . The Minister of Health and Social Development--! will take the question as notice and have it referred to the Minister of Health and Social Development . MR . SPEAKE.lt: The Honourable Member for Roblin. M.tt . J. WALLY McKENZIE (.ttoblin): Mr .

Speaker, I•ve a question to the Honourable the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affa irs . I wonder can the Honourable Minister advise the House what stage the lodge is at being built at Childs Lake . What stage is it at today? MR . SPEAKE.tt: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation . HON . RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Touris�q Recreation and Cultural Affai rs) (Spring field): Mr . Speaker, obviously I don•t know . I•ll check and find out and let the honourable member know. I hope it•s not under water. MR . SPEAKE.tt: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR . DAVID BLAKE (Minnedo sa): Mr .

Speaker, my question is to the Honourable the First Minister. Has the First Minister received a letter dated March 21st, 1974 from the United Paper Workers Intern ational Union Local 140 3, The Pas , in which they state their grave concerns over the recent increases in the hydro rates for Northern Manitoba? MR . SPEAKE.tt: The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCH.ttEYE.tt: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have no personal recollection of having re ceived that letter. I will check. It may have been referred for a reply to someone on staff, for the drafting of a reply.

I•ll have to check that, but let me take this opportunity then to in dicate that the rate adjustments referred to in the question are such as to be certainly not out of proportion with rate adjust ments that were made elsewhere in the province , and in fa ct, as I've indicated bef ore, hydro electric rates in our province compare very fa vourably with any other single jur isdiction in Canada. MR . SPEAKEl:t: The Honourable Member fo r Wolseley. MR . AS PElt: Mr . Speaker, my question is to the First Minist er.

Is he person ally satisf ied that the danger of flood was communicated directly to the victims of the flood as opposed to being directed to the municipalities ,representing them?

2688 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. .April23, 1974 MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr . Speaker, now, as in times past, the forecast ing of flood - probabilities is carried out in a certain way. The information is imparted to persons at the local municipal, local government level. In addition to that, reports are tabled in this House from time to time. In addition to that, via the news media, this information is made available, and insofar as diss emination is concerned, that is about as satisfactory a procedure as it's poss ible to arrive at.

I might add further that there is something of a conundrum in the ,question since the question asks whether this information was provided to flood victims. Well, a:t least some of those who are incurring direct flood damage. There was no way of identifying in advance each individual that would be so af fected, therefore how was one to arrive at some kind of a mailing list such as my honourable friend implies in his question ? MR . .ASPER: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker.

If the information was dissem inated to the municipalities, as he suggests, would he indicate why no diking was commenced until Friday evening in Carman, which is one of the hardest hit areas ? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it was in certainly one, and I believe more than one of the flood forecasts that were made available in this .Ass embly and to localities as well, that there was anticipated to be a very heavy runoff on the prairies and in western Manitoba, and that all those watersheds that were in the south central, southwestern parts of the province would be incur ring heavier than normal runoff, and there was no secret of that fact.

Insofar as the upper Re d was concerned, it was deemed to be not nearly as likely to cause problems and that's why Red Ri ver levels not exceeding 1966 were for ecast. .And that's about the actuality that we'll be facing on Thursday or Friday--I think Thursday. It's been revised one day. That's about what we'll be facing, Sir. MR . .ASPER: To the same Minister a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Was one of the reasons that the municipalities did not commence sandbagging earlier attributed to the fact that the province of Man itoba was charging them 23 cents a sandbag ? MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there's been no change in that respect. The Manitoba Flood Fighting Plan has been based on those premises. The province is not making money on sandbags. Municipalities were advised to procure sandbags or, if they wis hed, to obtain them directly from the province at cost. .And that's the arrangement that was followed. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR . J. PAUL M.ARION (St. Boniface) : Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my quest ion to the First Minist er in view of the absence of the Minister for Health and Social Development.

Can the government confirm that in view of the impending strike at the Health Sciences Centre, plans are now being formulated to reduce the hosp ital beds from 1, 100 to 300 ? MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr. S;>eaker, I would merely question the description of an impending str ike, and having registered that caveat, I'll take the balance of the question as notice. MR. M.ARION: Well, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the First Minister could take under advise ment my next question, which reads: What contingency plans are be ing developed to accommo date the 800 patients who will be removed from the Health Sciences Centre?

Where will they be accommodated ? .And finally, Mr. Speaker, a third question to the same Minister. Can the First Min ister confirm that some beds at the Health Sciences Centre presently are not being in use because of the nurse shortage which is now being felt and which apparently will become a great deal more acute some time this summer ? MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware that we have received any repre sentations alleging in any concrete way that there is a shortage of nu rses, but insofar as the other part of the question is concerned I would indicate that contingency plans with respect to hosp ital accommodation are something that is dealt with in the normal course. There always ought to be contingency plans.

But let it not be thought that the contingency plans that exist and which are revised from time to time, relate to some assumed str ike, because we are not assuming that there will be a strike until the strike occurs. .And to indicate that there is some specific course of action under way in advance of some probability of strike action, is merely to compound the probability of such and it is not in the public interest to feed that kind of antic ipation unless, of course, one does not have the public interest in mind.

Ap ril 23, 1974 2689 ORAL QUESTIONS HON. RUSSEL L PAU LLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): They tried it with th e police. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MARION: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary to th e Mi nister of Labour. In view of the Firs t Minister's st atement that th ere is no impending st rike, can the Minister of Labour advise us at what point the conciliation is between the group and the hospit a l adminis tration? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, I don' t know whether this is a supplementary question or not posed by the Honourable the Member for St. Bonifa ce.

I th ink th is is a repetition of th e question that was aske d at the time tha t there was a pos sibility of a police strike in th e Unicity. It didn't materialize. The Department of Labour is doing everything within its power and within its authority to have parties meet to resolve their diff erences. The parties are meeting, and I hope that the Honourable Member for St. Boniface and oth er members oppos ite are not disa ppointed, as they were in the police st rike, that there was not such a st rike. MR. SPE AKE R: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. WARNER -H. JORGENSON (Morris) : Mr .

Speaker, I sho uld like to direct my question to the First Minister pursuant to th e ques tions that were akasked by the Leader of the Liberal Pa rty. I wonder if he could advise the House whether or not the Provincial Government or any of its agencies has th e righ t or th e authority to build flood-prot ecting st ructures , su ch as dikes, without the consent and advice of the local authorit ies ? MR. SPE AKER : The Honourable Firs t Minister. MR. SCHREY ER: Well, Mr. Sp eaker, that is a question which I would not consider prudent to answer in terms of giving a legal opinion, but certainly it would se em, Mr.

Sp eaker, th at it would be extremely inadvisable, whateve r the lega lities may be, it would be extremely inadvisable for se nior go vernment to move into a community to construct certain works relating to th e protection of that community without the prior advice knowledge and consent of th e local government. MR. SPEA KER : The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Sp eaker, my question is directed to the Honourable the Minister of Ag riculture.

In view of the fact that the licences to the tech nicians wh o supply the ar tificia l insemination se rvice to the province have expired on March 31st, I wonder if he could advis e the Hous e when th eir licences will be renewed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Ag riculture. HON. SA MUEL USKIW (Minister of Agr iculture) ( Lac du Bonnet): Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of any licences th at have not been renewed or wherein anyone has refused to renew a licence. If the member has so me information for me, I'd be glad to receive it. MR. BLAKE: I understand, Mr.

Sp eaker, the technicians in my area have not received the renewal of th eir licence. They'v e been told that they're on the Minister's desk. They're wondering if they will be renewed or if th ey're being held up. MR. USKIW; Mr . Sp eaker, I have not received any recommendation from any source, or any applica tion for renewal of any licence--(Interjection)--I presume that if they'r e on MR. SPE AK ER: Order pleas e. MR. USKIW: ... th ey' ll be on my desk in due course. MR. SPEAKER : Th e Honourable Member for St e. Rose . MR. A. R. AD AM (Ste. Rose): Thank you very much. Mr.

Sp eaker, my question is to the Firs t Minister. In his st atement yesterday he mentioned compensation for farm buildings, barns and granaries, and I' m wondering if thi s also , the compensation would also cover livestock and grain and damage to farm machinery. It has been quite extensive in my constituency. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Firs t Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, that is a matter which would be referred to the Flood Damage Asse ssm ent Board as well.

We have no prior or previous guidelines with res pect to pos .sible compensation for damage or loss to livestock and grain, but only with respect to st ructural damage. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Cha rleswood.

. 2690 Ap ril 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. AR THUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker I'd like to direct my question to the Attorney -General. Has the At torney-General received a report from the RCMP in regards to the use of drugs and liquor in the detention centre there? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable .At torney-General. HON. HOWARD PA WLEY (Attorney-General, Minister of Municipal Af fairs) (Selkirk) : No, Mr. Speaker. MR . MOUG: Will his department be enquiring about the insta nce ? MR.

PA WLEY: Well, I wonder if the honourable member could specify, or be specific as to the instance, either here or give me particulars later. I'm not quite certain, if he's referr ing to Co rrections, that poss ibly the question should be directed to the Minister of Health and Social Development if it pertains to drugs within the Corrections Institute. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for LaVerendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Honourable, the Minister of Finance.

Could the Minister confirm that people from the Re venue Tax Branch are driving around throughout rural Manitoba trying to pick up the remittances from the diff erent vendors with regards to the five percent Provincial Sales Tax ? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK Q. C. (Minister of Finance) (St. Johns) : No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm any such statement, but I trust my department officials are doing their jobs as well as they can and that everyone else is trying to carry on as best they can under the adverse circumstances that exist today. MR .

BANMAN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister then confirm that vendors who have mailed their remittances and which are caught in the mail right now, are being asked to stop payment on the cheques in the mail and asked to remit a new cheque? MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I have never heard that suggestion but it 's not a bad one. I'll certainly refer it to our department for cons ideration. In that, I assume that the honourable member would support any opportunity the governme nt has to receive payment and reinvest the moneys for the benefit of the people of Manitoba as quickly as poss ible.

MR . BANMAN: A final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does this action indicate that the government is hard-pressed for cash? MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the Member for La Verendrye, who is obviously really concerned, that we are constantly lending money at short term because we are able to take care of our financial needs in such a way that we are never strapped for cash but are able to manage the aff airs of the province in the best manner possi ble. (Applause) MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for As siniboia. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia) : Mr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the Honourable Minister of Lab our. I wonder if the Minister can indicate what specific steps the government or the Minister has taken to deal with the labour shortage that currently exists at the Port of Churchill and which the Port manager has termed as the worst crisis that he has ever experienced to get any labour. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, apparently I'm not privy to the same infor mation that the Honourable Member for Ass iniboia is.

However, I do want to indicate to him and the House that I had a three-hour meeting yesterday morning with tho se engaged in construction in the Province of Manitoba. I intend to have meetings with the Canada Manpower and to have a proper and thorough and not speculative asses sment of the situation prevailing in Manitoba in respect of presumed or speculated labour shortages . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia. MR . PATRICK: A supplementary.

Has the Minister any correspondence or communi cation with the secretary-treasurer of the Hudson Bay Ro ute As sociation, who has indicated and promised the Port of Churchill people to recruit farmers in the Province of Saskatchewan to run the elevators in the Port of Churchill? MR . PAULLEY: The answer is no, I have not received such a communication, but if there are available farmers in Saskatchewan, being Canadians, that can become engaged in

Ap ril 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR . PAULLEY cont'd) ... construction in th e Port of Churchill, I would prefer th os e farmers to outs iders. MR. SP EAKER : The Honourable Member for Lakeside. 2691 MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr . Sp eaker. Mr . Sp eaker, I direct a question to th e Honour able, the Minister of Ag riculture. Can he tell th e House how long, or for how long a period th e sus pens ion now placed on th e marketing of hogs in Manitoba will be in effect? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Ag riculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Sp eaker, what suspension is th e honourable .member talking about? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Sp eaker, it's agains t th e rules to inform th e Honourable Minister of so mething that he obviously is fully and totally aware of but for so me reason or other he does n't want to . . . MR. SPEAKER : Questi on please. MR. ENNS: ... indicate in this Hous e. Well, my ques tion is : for how a period of time will th e MinisterofAgriculture permit a si tuation to exis t in the Province of Ma nitoba where a farmer cannot .market a si ngle hog anywhere in th e province? That exists today and will exis t--(Interjection)-- MR. SPE AKE R: Order please . MR. ENNS: ... for we don' t know how long.

My question is, how long will he permit th at si tuation to continue whil e 40 0 and 500 men st and idle in packing plants waiting to proceed with sl aughter? MR. USKIW: Well, I assum e, Mr . Sp eaker, from th e remarks of th e Member for Lake si de, that there has been so me interruption of sales of hogs in th e marketplace today, and if that is so I suppo s e itwill .continue as long as there is no agreement between the seller and the buyer. That is a private matter between thos e two groups and not a matter of go vernment intervention at this point in time. And furthermore, Mr.

Sp eaker, I should also indicate to .my honourable friend that we should resist intervention, at least as long as honourable members opposite accuse us of intervention. MR. ENNS: A suppleme ntary questi on. Particularly in view of ar eas under current emergency si tuations where a farmer with his lives tock or indeed his ho gba rn, may find himself in diff iculty, what is he supposed to do with his hogs as the water ris es? MR. SP EAKER : The Honourable Member for Ar thur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur) : Mr.

Sp eaker, follo wing up in th e sam e line of ques tioning like my honoura ble colleague from Lakeside is it not a fact th at th e province has ful l control over th e marketing of hogs in Ma nitoba, and what is he going to do about the present si tuation? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Sp eaker, I want to remind th e Member for Ar thur th at he too should know, because he was in charge of th e administration of th e Department of Ag riculture, tha t marketing boards elected by produc ers fairly--they run th eir sh ops fairly well without government intervention. --(Interjection)--And government intervention is usually becaus e of so me violation of law ... MR. SP EAKER : Order please. Order please. MR. USKIW: ... on the reques t of th e marketing board in ques tion. --(Interjection)- MR. SPE AK ER: Order please. The Honourabl e Member for Ar thur. MR.

WATT: Is it not a fact that we have a compulsory marketing board or co mmis sion in th e Province of Manitoba co ntrolled by the go vernment now, and th e government are re sp onsible for th e marketing of hogs in th e Province of Ma nitoba? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Ag riculture. MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Speaker, that is not co rrect. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for th e Honourable the Minister of Nort hern Affairs.

I wonder could the Honourable Minister advise tre Hous e if any off ice sp ace studies have been conducted at The Pas with res pect to th e opening of a new Land Titles Of fice in northern Ma nitoba? MR. SP EAKER : The Honourable Minister of No rthern Af fairs . MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Sp eaker. MR. McKENZIE: ... question to th e Honourable Minister. I wonder, can th e Honourable Minister advise th e Hous e if any off ice sp ac e studies have been conducted in Thomps on with

2692 Ap ril 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR . McKENZIE cont'd) ... respect to the establishment of a new Land Titles Off ice in northern Man itoba ? MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, the questions about Land Titles Off ice would be more appropriately directed to the At torney-General. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable At torney-General. MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, It's been determined for some little time now that there would be the constru ction of a Land Titles Offi ce in northern Manitoba.

The need is well proven in this respect and at present there is monitoring taking place as to the volume of work and practicality of such a Land Titles Offi ce being located either in Thompson or in The Pas, and it will depend upon the l'olume of work and areas of convenience, keeping in .mind the proximity of Flin Flon, etc. , so that I expect prior to the end of this year that there will be a specific indication as to the location of a Land Titles Office in northern Manitoba. MR . McKENZIE: A final question and I'll direct it to the Honourable, the Attorney General.

Could the Honourable Attorney-Ge neral advise the House if the people of northern Manitoba could expect it to be open, say early 19 75--the new Land Titles Off ice ? MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable At torney-General. MR . PAWLEY: No, I don't think it would be wise for me to project to the people of l'jorthern Manit oba as to when such a Land Titles Office would be opened except to indicate that we're moving in that direction. I would not want to estimate the time period within which it would be opened. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . AR NOLD BR OWN (Rhin eland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the absence of the Minister of Health and Social Development, I would like to direct my question to the First Minister. When the Minister appoints a new Deputy Minister of Health andSocial Development will he take into consideration that it's very tmportant to appoint somebody who is well resp ected by the various providers of health care ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, when a Deputy Minister is appointed he will be appointed in accordance with long-st anding tradition as to how, where, when, why and by whom such is appointed. MR .

BROWN: My question is to the same Minister. Is he aware that a strike by employees at the Health Sciences Centre would seriously af fect all hospitals in Winnipeg because the central laundry is located there? MR. SCHREYER : That is, Mr. Speaker, without again attempting to speculate as to the probability or otherwise of strike action, I would simply acknowledge the fact that the laundry fac ilities are located at the location my honourable friend mentioned. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Ro uge): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Agri culture. Has he met with repres entatives of the Milk Producers As socia tion in Manitoba in view of their threat to withhold milk supplies in the province, and can he tell us what steps he is planning to meet their demand ? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I have had ongoing negotiations with the members of the various milk producers associ ations in Man itoba over the last three or four mont hs. I have not had any contact from a group that is allegedly go ing to request a meeting with me.

I have not had any formal contact with that particular group. MR . AX WORTHY: A supplementary. Could the Minister tell us what stock of milk supplies would be available in the province in the case of a withholding of milk supplies. How long in fa ct could we exist without it ? MR . USKIW: I would presume, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Fort Ro uge, is it ? would appreciate that cows cannot withold the supplies. They have to milk during their proper season. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for As siniboia. MR . PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. Has the Minister of Industry and Commerce had any communications recently with the federal Minister of Transport relative to the maintenan ce and overhaul work on the Hoeing 727 being done in Winnipeg on the new ones that are ordered by Air Canada and that are owned by the Department of Defe nse ?

Ap ril 23, 1974 2693 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEA KER : The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. LEONA RD S. EVANS (M inister of Industr y and Commerce) (Brandon East): Well, Mr. Sp eaker, this has been a continuing concern of myself and ,the go vernment, and the Prem ier in particular. I suppose the most recent exchange of information was via a meeting between Mr . Mar chand, the Premier and myself in Ottawa just a m attar of days :ago - well I guess it was last week - at which time we discus se d this matter at some length, not only with Mr.

Marchand, but with some other federal Cabinet Ministers who hav e an interest in this matter as well. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia. MR . PATRICK: Mr. Sp eaker, to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. Is the Minister aware tint Lodge 1751 at Dorval Ai r Base are oppos ed to any moves that would force the 727 be overhauled in Winnipeg, ar e at the pres ent time lobbying .. . MR. SPE AKE R : Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. Order please. The question is out of order, therefore there is no answer. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface.

The Honourable Memb er for St. Bonifa ce. MR. PATRICK: I have one question more, Mr. Sp eaker. --(Interjection)-- MR. SPEAKER : Order please . Since the honourable gentleman insists, let me inform him: how can you have a supplementary to something which is out of order? The Honourable Member for St. Boniface has no questi on? The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia. The Honourable Member for Wols eley, Leader of the Liberal Pa rty. MR. AS PER: Mr. Sp e1ker, on a point of order. The question out of which the supple- mentary aros e was quite in order and you allowed that. MR. SPE AKER : Order please. MR. ASPE R: Mr.

Sp eaker, I'd like to make my point of order, Mr . Sp eaker. MR. SPE AKER : Order pleas e. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party state his point of order. MR. AS PER : My point of order is that the question that the Honourable Member from Ass iniboia was ask ing as a supplementary was a sup plementary to a question that was in order. It was the first suppl ementary that you ruled out of order. Therefore, the second supplementary ... MR. SPEA KER : Order please. I am not going to debate the issue with the honourable member. If the Member for St.

Boniface or Ass iniboia or any other member has a questi on, the y'r e entitled to ask it. But if a question is out of order you can't have a suppl ementary to that. The Honourable Member for As s iniboia. MR. PA TRICK: Mr. Question, my--(Laught er)--Mr. Sp eaker, my question is to the Minister of Industr y and Commerce.

I wonder if the Minister of Industry and Commerce would give consideration to calling a Manitoba Ai r Policy .Co mmittee meeting which would consist of the Mayor, of the City of Winnipeg Council and the Manitoba Federation of Labour, to bring to bear on th e Federal Government that this move must take place? MR. SPE AKE R : The Honourable Minister. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr . Speaker, I believe that action is required on the part of the people of Manitoba, and the Government of Manitoba at the present time is undertaking steps to br ing fo rth our mess a�Se to Ottawa loud and clear.

In other words, this particular matter is under active consideration and planning at this time. Whi le I' m on my feet, Mr. Sp eaker, last week the Honourable the Leader of the Liberal Par ty asked me a number of questions, a ser ies of questions pertaining to the gar ment industry, with particular reference to the clos ing of a factory in Steinbach, Gemini Outerwear, which is owned, I believe, by a Mr . Ralph Ki ng. The sam e day Mr . Ralph King made refere nce to it in a newspaper

article stating that I was res ponsible for the shut down, Mr. As per followe d with a number of questions and mentioned a minimum wage of $3--, or a bottom wage of $3. 50, and I have since received a report on the situation there and I'd like to inform the members of the House that the co mpany has had very great difficul ties in retaining staff for two main reasons: 1, and I will be as brief as possi ble1 1. the way they tr eat their employees; and number 2, because of the particular pay system which was intr oduced by Mr. Ki ng and which lowered the moral eand product ionlevels of the employees. Mr.

Ki ng, the owner or one of the owners, has ap proached Canada Ma npower, I am informed, on a consist ent basis over the years for training money ...

2694 April 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Swan River state his matter of privilege. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): I believe the honourable gentleman had the opportunity of making this statement under the Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports rather than during question period. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Minister indicated it was a reply to a question. The Honourable Minister. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, very much to the point there were several questions asked of me on April 16th.

To answer the question therefore right to the point, all of the people, the bulk of the people who start are untrained people who receive the minimumwage and after a training period, for which training moneys are received, they are then put on a piecework basis. 1 am informed by the Canada Manpower office at Steinbach that the bulk of the employees are paid the minimum wage or about the minimum wage of $1.90. There is an exceptional few that receive a maximum of $2.90 an hour, and this includes piecework bonuses. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MRo MARION: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to direct my question to the First Minister in his capacity as Minister for Urban Affairs. What action is being·planned by the government presently to assist the City of Winnipeg in obtaining the maximum amount of federal dollars available for the rail relocation program that is being contemplated for Winnipeg, due to the new legislation now being presented in the Federal House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, as the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface knows, we do have, quite regularly, meetings with the City of Winnipeg, representatives of the City of Winnipeg Council and Administration, and the matter of rail relocation has been discussed on a number of occasions. The particular reference in my honourable friend's question today, however, is with respect to some proposed new program and legislation which has not received approval in principle as yet, and as such it would be at least a little premature. MRo MARION: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker.

Has the Pr ovincial Government now decided the amounts of money or set aside amounts of money to assist in the rail relocation program and what are the magnitude of these amounts? MRo SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, we have certain grants which are payable to the City of Winnipeg. Many of those grants have been revised in accordance with that which was expressed in the Budget statement of this year. Other grants are in process of discussion for future years .

And with respect to the general subject of funds for transportation improve ments, which rail relocation comes under in afashion. there are funds available in the form of the announced $5 million urban transportation innovation fund, and so we do not feel that funding is the main constraint but rather .a determination of policy intent on the part of the City in bringing forward its case and its desire to senior government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MRo SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry and Commerce.

It relates to his last answer with respect to the minimum wage. I wonder if he can indicate whether his Department, through the Department of Statistics, are in a position to indicate the number of people or approximately the number of people who are on minimum wage in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EV ANS: Because of a little noise I 'm not sure whether I heard the entire question, but I believe it was: how many people are at or on the minimum wage in Manitoba.

Well, I believe that is information that perhaps could be forthcoming from the Department of Labour. MR. SPIVAK: Is the Minister of Labour in a position to answer the question? To give an approximate figure of how many people are on minimum wage? MR 0 SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MRo PAULLEY: I believe the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition has been in the House on a few occasions, Mr. Speaker, where I've made reference to a • . . study on the effects of minimum wage. That is being considered at the present time.

I 'm sure if my honourable friend would be patient that the information he seeks will be revealed to him. This is one of the areas of activity within the Department of Labour as against that within the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Ap ril 23, 1974 2695 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of th e Op position. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if th e Minister of Labour can confirm th at a subst antial number of people who make up th ose who are at or on th e minimum wage in th e province, are either government employees or Manitoba public employees of Crown corp ora tions or affilia tes . MR. PAULLEY: If I am correct , Mr .

Speaker, and I put a caveat on an actual answer to my honourable frie nd, it is my underst anding that as a res ult of th e negotiations th at took place between th e Manitoba Government Em ployees As soc iation and th e Government of Manitoba, th ere are relatively few , if any, employees wi th in th e Civil Service th at are only receiving the present mi nimum wage of $1 .9 0 an hour, and I want to as sure, Mr.

Speaker, you and the members of th is Asse mbly, not if , but when th e mi nimum wages in th e Province of Manitoba are increase d, they will be fort hc oming to all employees with in th e Civil Service if applicable. MR. SPIVAK: Well by way of another question th en, Mr. Speaker. I wonder, th en, if th e Minister can confirm th at a subst antial number of people who are Manitoba public employees, not civil servants but employees such as th ose in th e hos pitals and other Crown corporat ions, are in fact at or aro und th e mi nimum wage in Ma nitoba? MR. PAULLEY: Mr .

Speaker, I would suggest to my honourable fr iend th at th ere are no substantial number of employees in th e public ser vice, and I take it from the question raise d or ask ed by th e Honourable th e Leader of the Oppos ition he is referr ing to municipalities hos pital board s, and th e likes of th at - which of course , Mr. Speaker, is not with in the control of the Department of Labour . We 're conc erned th at no one in Manitoba receives less than that th at is auth or ized by th e regulatio ns pertaining to th e mi nimum wage. It could well be, Mr.

Speaker, th at th ere are certain public corp ora tions th at only pay th e mi nimum wage, but as far as we are concerned in th e Department of Labour, we are very vigilant to see th at no one except for exceptional permits such as th e handicap ped, re ceives less th an th e minimum wage in th eProvince of Manitoba. MR, SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Leader of th e Oppos ition. MR, SPIVAK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, my question is to th e Minister of Industry and Com merc e and it relates to statements that he's made in th e House with res pect to supporti ng immigration requests by th e garment industry whose average wage, I believe, is $2. 50 . . MR, SPEAKER: Question please, MR. SPIVAK: Well I intend to do th at, Mr. Speaker . Who se average wage is $2 .5 0. wonder if th e Minister can indicate whether his department has objec ted or raised objection to th e Federal Government for immigration to be allowed for employees to enter into th e Manitoba public service who in fact will be earning less ... MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The question is argumentative in that co ntext. There was too much informat ion in it to begin with . Let me cite th e $2. 50 which is debatable. There's a number of th ings th at are debatable in th at question. The honourable member wish to re ph rase it? MR. SPIVAK: The Minister has indicated th at th e government has --the Minister has indicated in answer .. MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. SPIVAK: .. . to us befo re th at the government has objected to immigration to th is province of people who would earn $2.50 and less .

I wonder whether th e Minister, th e government .h as ra ised objection with Ottawa for immigration for th ose . . . MR. SPEAKER : The question is still th e sam e. Order please. MR. SPIVAK: ... who may be aske d to enter th e public service in Manitoba. MR, SPEAKER: Order please, It's st ill the same question and it's still argumentative in th at co ntext. Now if th e ho nourable member wishes to rephrase it and put it succ inctly without cr eating an argument, he's entttled to do tha t. The Honou rable .. . MR. SPIVAK: Mr, Sp eaker, I 'm trying to put it as succinctly as I can.

I ask th e Minister whether th e government has raise d objection with th e Federal Government for immig ration being al lowed into Ma nitoba from outsi de of Canada for employees who enter th e public service who will be earning $2.50 or less, other than garment worker s? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerc e. MR, EVANS: Mr, Chairman, the province of Ma nitoba has little or no diffic ulty in re cr uiting people to work in the public service of Ma nitoba . MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River.

2696 April 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. BILTON: Mr . Speaker, my question is directed to the First Minister . In view of the impassioned promise of resignation by the Minister of Labour yesterday, can the First Minister advise as to whether or not he has a dramatic announcement to make in this direction? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCHREY ER: Well, Mr .

Speaker, inasmuch as most reasonable people would agree that there is value in having .on an executive board persons who have -a t least some persons who have - the wisdom of years, greater numbers ofyears than average , and since the Member for Swan River has not offered to join our party and our Cabinet , then I am more than pleased with the serviCEjS of the ·M inister of Labour, who brings the wisdom of a few more years of life to deliberations: in the Executive Council . MR . BILTON: I appreciate the opinion of the First Minister . If it'll help at all, I' ll move over. MR . SPEAKER : Question please .

The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERM AN : Mr . Speaker, I want to ask a question of the Honourable the Minister of Labour related to a question I asked earlier . When the Minister wasn't in his seat at that moment, I didn't have the opportunity. Can the Minister advise the House whether any economic responsibilities for welfare recipients engaged in flood fighting rests with the Department of Labour? Whether any economic responsibility rests with his department? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAULL EY: Mr.

Speaker, I suppose that it's incumbent on me to indicate why I was not present just at the start of the meeting this afternoon due to the innuendos that I' m receiving from the Member for Swan River and the Member for Fort Garry . I was trying to . -- (Interjections)-- MR . SPEAKER : Order please. MR . PAULLEY: ..• I was trying to resolve a strike . I was trying to resolve a strike that has been ongoing in Manitoba for some time, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : Order please. Order please . Order please. I wonder if all members would try to co�tain themselves.

Those who must make outbursts , would they kindly tape it and send it some place else instead of to this Chamber. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR . SHERMAN: On a point of privilege, Mr . Speaker . The Minister of Labour has been in this House and in politics long enough to know that he has no right to impute motives to others in this Chamber . There was no such motive in my question . As a matter of fact, I was acknowledging the fact that he wasn't here at that moment and I regretted that I didn't have the opportunity just at that moment .

There was no suggestion, no innuendo, no motive, and it's scandalous of him to suggest that there was. Now--(Interj ection) -- A MEM BER : Just plain ignorance, that's all. MR . SHERMAN: May I ask him from the fount of his 21 years of wisdom, which is highly questionable in its demonstration in this House time and time again, whether his de partment has any economic responsibility, covers anything having to do with remuneration, pay or otherwise, for welfare recipients who are receiving welfare payments and who are working in flood-fighting activities?

A MEMBER: That kind of wisdom this House and this Province can do without. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Again I repeat, the honourable members that must make outbursts, will they tape it and ship it out someplace else? The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAU LLEY: Mr . Speaker, I want to concur with my honourable friend the Member for FortGarry that he has no motives in this House other than his own ideosyncrasies.

Apart from that, in direct answer to my honourable friend, there was some criticisms this morning on some stupid by-line program , which is conducted, I believe, by a friend of my honourable friend from Fort Garry , who loves to harass this government, insofar as the input of activities and work by people who are on welfare, and that there was a question directed to that very enlightening pi:-ogram by a councillor of the City of Winnipeg - who should have her head examined - as to whether or not recipients of welfare may receive some pittance in addition to their welfare cheques because they are involved in attempting to save some of our communities from flooding.

The question was: will they receive any additional remuneration for that? I know my honourable friend the Member for Fort Garry hasn't got the time to check into the rules

April 23 , 1974 2697 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PAU LLEY cont 'd) . . . and regulations pertaining to the recipients of welfa re, but there are provisions whereby recipients of welf are can use their energies and receive certain amounts of remuneration in addition to their welfa re ch eques , providing they are doing a service.

Now the answer to my honourable fr iend is , despite the idiot that is the head of this idiotic program which we listen to in the mornings, by one of our radio stations, the answer is that despite his criticisms apparently there are recipients of welf are who want to help save some of our communities from being inundated as the result of the flo od , and as far as the Department of Labour is concerned, we welcome and we congratulate tho se who are on welfa re because of their input, despite that character that is the organizer of that particular program over one of the radio stations in Ma nitoba. MR.

SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker , with considerable trepidation I thank the Minister for the rather ungenerous delivery of his information. I wish to ass ure him I was not referri ng to the radio program . I didn't hear it . MR. SPEAKER: Question please. Question please. MR. SHERMAN: May I ask the Minister of Labour whether the same rules of remunera tion for par ticipation under str ess in emergency apply , in the view of this government, across the spectrum of our society, apply to tho se who give up working to go ou t and fight the floo ds , as well as those who are receiving welf are. MR.

PAU LLEY: The only answer I can give in that regard, Mr. Speaker, I do believe that there are real good employers in the provinc e of Ma nitoba that would suggest--{)h you wouldn't know who th ey were--that they would suggest to their employees that "if you will go out to Morr is and raise the dikes at Morris, we are prepared not to deduct your wages ." To that degree, I think there is involvement by the community in the cri si s that we have, particularly in certain areas in the province of Ma nitoba, and I commend, I commend, Mr.

Speaker, I comm end the employers who are giving their employees decent wages for doing this . I condemn the approach of some councillors and some radio stations in the province of Manitoba. MR. SHERMAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister consider providing remuneration to the hundreds, if not thous ands, of school students and high school students, and university students, who have gone out and volunteered to fight the fl oods? MR. PABLLEY: I would suggest , Mr.

Speaker , that th e students at hi gh schoo l, our students at the University, who are going out and voluntarily usi ng their effo rts to assi st in the present positi on, do not and are not - they are not mercenary - that they require or want to rec eive a monetary benefit. They are doing it , unlike some oth ers, in their endeavours to as sist humanity and the communities in the province of Manitoba and, Mr.

Speaker , I think that you and the leaders of the three parties in this Hous e should jointly issue a letter of com mendation to the students and other s for their effo rts in order to ease the burden of the disaster that we 're suffering at the present time. MR. SHERMAN: One final supplem entary , Mr. Speaker . Is the Minister suggest ing that welfa re recipients would not take a pride in working and fight ing the floods vc luntarily? Is he suggesting that welf are recipients are only doing what they 're doing because they are mercenary? MR. PAULLEY: Mr .

Speaker , how typical of my honourable friend from Fort Garry to phrase a supplementary question as he ha s just done. I admire all of tho se who are on welf are, who are making a contribution, and I don't suggest, as appar ently the Honourable Member for Fort Garry sugges ts, that they have merc enary objectives . I have greater trus t, I have greater trust in the citizens of Ma nitoba than any cott on-pickin member of the Cons ervative Party repres ented in this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please . MR. PAU LLEY: And Mr. Speaker , if I may , while I' m on my feet .

And the very question tha t the Member for Fort Garry has raise d reminds me of the importance--May I have the oppor-tunity of the House to make refer ence to a very important day in the desti ny of c.3moc ratic government in the world. And that is , Mr. Speaker , today, Apri l 23rd , is the day when we ob serve St. George 's Day. I proudly wear today the rose of England .

That great nation from whence my ancestors came, tha t great nation, when the world was at its lowes t ebb, provided such leadership as Sir Wins ton Churchill, when we were able to listen to the songs of Gracie Fields, when we go back to the days when England stood alone, and I

2698 April 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) •.. notice, Mr . Speaker, from the rabble opposite, that there isn't recognition there because they have lost sight of the basic principles of British democracy that were instigated in England, and I do suggest--(Interjections) --Ah shut up and sit down, you nincompoop. I do suggest, Mr. Speaker, --( Interjection) -- MR 0 SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Morris state his point of order. MR.

JORG ENSON: Su rely, Sir, if we 're to be limited in the manner in which we ask questions, surely that rule applies as well to the manner in which the questions are answered. The Minister is not answering a question at all . He's engaging in another one of his tirades prompted by God knows what. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. ORDER PL EASE. Now that the House is settled down maybe I can even think a little. But let me assure the honourable members that the Honourable Minister asked for permission and no one objected. That's why he was carrying on after he had answered a question.

And the Honourable Minister was discussing St. George's Day. Now those people who weren't listening it's their own fault. Now let me assure you that this Chair tries to do its best to maintain order and decorum, but it's not getting the co-operation of very many members and that is the unfortunate problem, that no one is paying attention and no one is listening. Now, the Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . WATT: Did you tell the House .•. Sir Winston Churchill a capital. .. MR 0 SPEAKER: Order please. Does the Honourable Minister of Labour wish to finish his statement in respect to St. George 1s Day?

The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Speaker, -- (Interjection) --! did ask and it was granted. MR 0 SPEAK ER: Order, please. The Honourable Minister did ask and there was no objection. That's why he carried on. MR. JORGENSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, there was no objection because the Minister of Agriculture was over here asking me for permission to go out and view the floods with the Pre mier this afternoon and I never heard the Minister ask for leave. But I tell you right now he doesn't have it as far as I'm concerned. We've heard enough of him. MR 0 SPEAKER: Order please.

I regret that the honourable member wasn't paying attention but that is one of the unfortunate things. One cannot do three or four things at one time. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR 0 PA ULLEY: Mr. Speaker, may I suggest that if the Honourable Member for Morris MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. PAULLEY: .... is not prepared to recognize the contribution that England has made to democracy, that is his opinion. I note now that he has left the House. We in this House from time to time recognize the contribution that has been made by nations, small and large. We recognized on St.

David's Day a contribution of the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce wherein he referred to St . David's contribution, that great nation called Wales. A former Lieutenant-Governor, the late Errick Willis, on St . Patrick 's Day presented each and every one of us with a pot of shamrocks in recognition of the contribution to democracy of Ireland. We recognize St. Andrew's Day.

We recognize Robbie Burns Day, and my purpose in standing today is to recognize the contribution of England to the well-being and destiny of the democratic govermnents that are prevailing- (Interject ion) --Yes, my honourable friend from Swan River, who I believe comes from Yorkshire, would join with me in recognizing the contribution of the English people to the de mocratic process, in recognition of the Mother of Parliaments, Great Britain and England.

And I only trust and hope that my honourable friend from Swan River who from time to time is wont to criticize me, will criticize his fellow member for Morris, who would deny me, as an ancestrally descendant from that great nation of England, an opportunity to be heard in this Chamber. And if, Mr. Speaker, members would just take a look around as they notice the Ensign of the Province of Manitoba, they would find there the cross of St. George. If they'd look at the Union Jack they'd find there the cross of St. George. And I could not, Mr.

Speaker, as a descendant of a family that for generations were part of England, I could not help but today, April 23rd, to stand and pay tribute to the great contribution that the people of England have made. How well we recall in the darkest days of the Second World War that that little tight isle stood alone facing the horrors of oppression in the other parts of Europe.

April 23, 1974 2699 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PAULLEY Cont'd) ..... I am proud , Mr . Speaker, as a son of England, to be able to stand up here today and say, there 'll alway s be an England, and thank God for their contribution, which makes it poss ible for us to meet and gather in this As sembly today . ME MBERS: Hear, hear ! (Applause) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker ... MR. SPEAK ER: Order please . A MEMBER: What is the question? MR. BILTON: . • . th ere's nothing lef t for me to say . A ME MBER: Don't say it then. MR. BILTON: Here they go with "don't say it" .

The Minister of Labour and I have locked horns for many years in this august Asse mbly, and I have nothing more to say , Mr. Speaker , but that I endorse every word he has said wholeheartedly . Thank you very much . (Applause) ORDERS OF THE DAY - BILL No . 8- CAPITAL SUPPLY MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader . HON . SIDNEY GREEN Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resourc es & Environmental Manage ment) (Inkster) : Yes, Mr. Speaker .

I wonder if we would now proceed to the Adjourned Debates on Second Reading, starting with Bill No . 8, standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. SPEAKER : Thank you. Bill No . 8. The Honourable Member fo r Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker , I adjourned this debate on behalf of my leader . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion. MR. SPIV AK: Mr.

Speaker, I hope that the Minister of Labour will stay for the presentation that I am about to make , because much of what I have to say is germane to the whole question of the English parliamentary tradition which he spoke so highly of, because in dealing with the Capital Es tim ates today in the bill, it's my intention to deal with what I believe is another direct circumvention of the Legislatu re , another attempt by the govern ment to , in fact, bypass the tradition or to permit itself to alter the tradition of the parlia mentary system that developed in England. Mr.

Speaker , I deal with this by way of the item on Capital Supply , the bill on Capital Supply , for the simple reason , Mr. Speaker, that my review of the way in which the Legislature operates and my discus sions with the Provincial Auditor have brought to my attention or have confirmed my belief that those items that are approved for Capital Supply by this Legislature are really left subject to final determination by the Cabinet as to what Capital Supply really will be. Mr .

Speaker , the fact is that when we deal with the Es timates in the Legislature, the Provincial Auditor who acts as the check and balance for this Legislature with respect to government spending, knows that there has been lawfully in this Legislature a permis sion given for an appropriation and that it is legal for expenditures to be undertaken by the govern ment, and he acts accordingly when he audits to confirm that there is bot h legal authority for what is being done and that it conforms to the specific s of what has been approved in the Est imates. When we deal with Capital Supply , however , Mr .

Speaker , the Provinc ial Auditor is not in tha t position , because it is up to the government to determine what is capital and, by its determination of what is capital and its allocation to capital, the Provincial Auditor only at that point basically confirm s what the government has done and is not in the position to indicate specifically that what the government is doing is realistically capital or other wise . Now, Mr . Speaker , capital has always been ass umed to be som ething that is undertaken which has some durable or last ing eff ect . Mr .

Speaker, capital is something that has been as sumed to be, that, and the allocation is ass umed to be that , but in reality it is not. And why I want to deal at this time with the particular matter, deals with the announcement by the Premier on Friday that there was going to be provided to the people of Manitoba additional provincial ass istance on property tax relief by increasing the education credit plan, and that the moneys for this were going to be found by the government from the Special Municipal Loan and Emergency Fund. Now Mr. Speaker, the announcement by the Premier - and I have the press statem ent

2-700 April 23 , 1974 CAPITAL SUPPLY - BILL 8 (MR. SPIVAK Cont'd) ••..• for the Minister of Finance, and he says that he did not say that - I'd like to, if l can, then, Mr. Speaker , read from the

article in the newspaper in which it's .•. and I quote: "The Pr emier told the Pr ovincial Legislature that the government is taking $8 million out of its Special Loans and General Emergency Fund to increase both the minimum and maximum payments under the property tax credit plan." Now, Mr . Speaker , if the Pr emier did not make this statement , the ladies and gentlemen of the press are going to be in a position to know whether this is not so or is so. But my understanding, Mr. Speaker , is that he did make this statement and he indicated that.

"The Pr emier told the Pr ovincial Legislature that the government is taking $8 million out of its Special Loans and General Emergency Fund to increase both the minimum and maximum payments under the property tax credit plan." And that would mean that the minimum credit would be $150 .0 0 rather than $100. 00. Now, Mr . Speaker, when one examines the Act of the Municipal Loan and Emergency Fund, on

Section 5 (1) we find the following paragraph: "Where , under any Act of the Legislature, moneys are authorized to be borrowed on the credit of the government for any purpose, the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council may authorize the moneys to be transferred to the fund for expenditure under authority of this Act, for the purposes for which the moneys were raised. " Mr.

Speaker , what the government is proposing is to by-pass the Legislature in a debate on what really is a supplementary estimate to an increase of expenditure that the government is undertaking as the result of increasing the tax credit minimum from $100 .00 to $150.00. A MEMBER: Right. MR . SPIV AK: Mr . Speaker, I say this because I think there is enough evidence to indicate that the government, in its deliberationE has decided that where possible they would want to minimize the debate or the request that should be made lawfully, by tradition, in this Legislature with respect to the expenditure of money.

The Minister of Finance can reiterate and he can speak on this debate, he can state it from his seat, that this is not so, but the fact is, Mr . Speaker, that if there is to be an increase in the education tax rebate, the government does not have slush funds all over the place to be able to simply say, "We're now going to increase it" and open the valve a little bit higher. They had a legal, a moral and a tradition to follow, which is to come to the Legislature for an appropriation to in fact allow any increase to take place; and they have the right, Mr.

Speaker , to be subject to a debate on that particular item . Now, Mr . Speaker, the question of course will arise as to whether the Premier did or did not say this. I' m satisfied that he did say it . I' m satisfied that the government did not, and does not intend to come to Legislature by way of supplementary estimates . . . MR . CHERNIACK: What's your reason, Sid ? MR . SPIVAK: I' m satisfied that the statement was made, and I' m satisfied, Mr . Speaker , that it is consistent with an overview that the government has of its position vis-a-vis this Legislature . Now, Mr .

Speaker , it is our concern and has been right from the very beginning, that the government has not been prepared to allow the Legislature to deal in a traditional way with the check and balance that the Legislature must undertake with respect to government spending, and one of our reasons for general disgust with the government has to do with the special warrant issued some weeks ago.

And if the Honourable Minister of Labour is upset by the way in which we receive his remarks of parliamentary democracy, we say that he and his colleagues said, "To hell with parliamentary democracy," when they issued a special warrant which went against the basic tradition of responsible government and of the Queen and the Government of the Queen accounting to the people for the expenditure of money . It has neveT happened before, Mr. Speaker . It is significant because it represents what I consider the arrogance of the government. And, Mr.

Speaker , this particular matter also represents , I believe, the arrogance of the government. They have no authority whatsoever to in any way suggest that they can borrow money to increase the education tax rebate . I don't care whether they consider that there is a legal basis within this Act --(Interjection) -- Well, Mr . Speaker, we then have got to a point where the Minister says he never said it . The Pr emier said it. MR . CHERNIACK: Mr . Speaker , would the honourable member • . • MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR .

CHERNIAC K: Is not the honourable Member confusing a source for money which is

April 23, 1974 270 1 CAPITAL SUPP LY - BILL 8 (M R. CHERNIACK Cont'd) ••... in a reserve and available , with a borrowing which is not required? And is he not doing that in the face of the fact that I'm sure the Premier 's statement which he showed us that he has in his hand, doesn't even indicate how the money will be raised? But assuming it comes from a "reserve" , does he believe that that reserve has to be borrowed when indeed it can be found to be in reserve funds now in Public Accounts? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker , I'm prepared to deal with that, and I will if the Honourable Minister of Finance will allow me to continue with my own presentation; and I will, for the simple reason that if in fact the reserve is applied as the First Minister indicates , they're then going to have to borrow to be able to bring the reserve up so that the reserve can in fact achieve the purposes for which it was developed. Because , Mr. Speaker, I 'm going to refer to the purposes of the Act and there is nothing in the purposes of the Act which would indicate the ability of the First Minister to do this.

Rather , I'm going to suggest to you , Sir, that what the government was concerned about is that they did not want a debate to take place on the rise that is going to occur in the mill rates in this province as the result of the increased escalation that has taken place in costs of services and in labour costs with respect to the municipalities and to the City of Winnipeg and the other cities in this province; that they were not going to try -- they wanted to avoid what would be debated as to whether the $8 million is even sufficient to meet the needs and the rising costs the municipalities and cities are bearing.

Now, Mr . Speaker, there are many, many points to this debate. There is the question as to whether the time has come for people to say and suggest that if the government is going to act as "Big Daddy" to everyone , that at least the municipal people should know in advance, when they try to strike their bills and strike their mill rates , what the government's intentions were. Mr.

Speaker, I don't know how a government who had a $52 million surplus and knowing full well the additional costs that were going to be borne by the cities and by the municipalities, could have allowed the situation to have come to this point when now all they are suggesting is that they are going to introduce $8 million or a $50 increase in the tax credit program -- the minimum tax credit program -- as a means to offset the actual taxation the taxpayers are going to have to pay in this province for real estate taxation. Now Mr.

Speaker, I must tell you that what they are proposing to do is essentially to circumvent the Legislature and a legitimate debate, that must take place, on the government's policy, on its revenue -sharing with the municipalities and the cities, and with the general problem of the cost of Unicity, which also is part of this debate. Because what we really are seeing now, Mr. Speaker, is that the words of those people who opposed the Unicity Bill are coming true. Unicity taxes are going to rise phenomenally this year, and there is no additional services . . . MR o CHER NIACK: •• o point of order. MR.

SPEAKER : Order please. The Honourable Minister state his point of order. MR. CHER NIAC K: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I look forward to being able to debate the rising mill rates in municipal iaxes, but I'm wondering if you will permit me to do so under a Capital Supply bill? May I assume that if you permit the Honourable Leader of the Opposition to continue on this tack , that then there will be no holds barred on the kind of debate that will ensue on the municipal tax rates. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker , the City of Winnipeg bill is going to rise phenomenally.

The amount that is being allocated and proposed by the Pr emier is a very minor amount so the cost. Mr. Speaker , there are really no new services, no new undertakings of any substantial nature being undertaken in the City of Winnipeg, let alone in the municipalities and other cities of this province. There are things that must be done. There is a blighted area around the central business district of Greater Winnipeg which requires tremendous funding and additional costs must be borne there. Nothing is being undertaken. And we have a phenomenal rise now, what will the rise be later on?

And what does the government intend to do in this matter? The government intends to deal with a

section of the Special Municipal Loan and General Emergency Fund Act to try and avoid accounting to the people in this Legislature in the tradition that the Honourable Minister of Labour spoke so highly before. You know, it really -- they have the gall, the Minister of Labour has the gall to stand up and talk about British parliamentary tradition. The Minister of Finance knows better. He knew that if in fact

27.{)2 April 23, 1974 CAPITAL SUPPL Y - BILL 8 (MR. SPIVA K Cont'd) .•. there was to be an additional amount given on the education tax rebate program, it was necessary to come through it by way of supplementary estimates. He knew that for sure. He's enough of a parliamentarian to know that; he has brought supplementary estimates before; he knows that that should have been done. But they were prepared then, in this particular case, as before, to circumvent the Legislature. They were prepared to try and avoid it. They were prepared, Mr. Speaker, to try and use their power in a manner that has not been used before.

And, Mr. Speaker, that reflects, I believe, on the insecurity of their position with respect to this matter and with respect to the other matters of government, and to the general arrogance that they have shown and disregard for this Legislature for the traditions and for the people of this province. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate what the purposes of the Special Municipal Loan and General Emergency Fund Act are. The purpose and intent of the Act is: (

a) To provide for the expenditures of moneys from and out of Consolidated Fund for the welfare and employment of the people of the province for unforeseen emergencies and for uncontrollable expenditures. Mr. Speaker, the rise that's going to occur in municipal tax rates in this province was neither an unforeseen emergency or an uncontrollable expenditure, so that purpose has not been met. The second purpose of the Act was to provide insurance against future loss of revenue. It doesn't meet that purpose, Mr. Speaker. And the last purpose, Mr.

Speaker, is to provide a fund from which loans may be made to municipalities. It doesn't even meet that specification. There is nothing in the Special Municipal Loan and General Em ergency Fund Act in terms of its purpose that are even being met by the government yet the Premier has the gall, and I say the gall, the unmitigated gall, to suggest that he will use that. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am satisfied from the discussions that I've had with the Provincial Auditor that the Capital Supply funding has now become, in the government's terms, an essential slush fund for them to use as they see fit. And I'm satisifed, Mr.

Speaker, that there are changes, fundamental changes that must occur for us to be able to have a proper accounting of borrowing by the government. We have to approve $700 million worth of borrowing. The borrowing that we have to approve is almost equal to the total administrative budget and revenues coming from taxation.

Mro Speaker, there is no way that this government can justify the request for money and at the same time expect us to basically approve the expenditure without an alteration and change of the system and without some information being supplied by the Provincial Auditor of the ways in which changes should take place with respect to the dealing of appropriations on Capital Supply in this Legislature. It will be my suggestion, Mr.

Speaker, that at the next meeting of Public Accounts a question will be put to the Provincial Auditor to provide for that Committee and for the Legislature the changes that should take place in the way in which the appropriations on Capital Supply should be undertaken so that in effect there will be some check and balance on the government in the way in which it handles money.

To give this government $700 million and to suggest to them that they now can spend it as they see fit and simply take it out of this pocket or that pocket or dip into this pocket or that pocket for whatever purpose, is not the way in which parliamentary democracy in the British tradition that the Honourable Minister of Labour talks so highly of was supposed to exist. Mr 0 Speaker, I want to put this particular aspect in the perspective of what has happened and what is being proposed by this government in this session.

And in the main I'm going to deal with what at this point appears to be their main thrust as far as legislation is concerned. The New Democratic Party in this legislation has proposed: First; to give the power to alter the composition of the Civil Service Commission to the Cabinet. Secondly; Mr. Speaker, the New Democratic Party Government proposes to give the power to rule on appeals on civil service appointments to a member of the Cabinet. Third; Mr . Speaker, the NDP Government proposes to give the power to reorganize, reassign and reclassify the civil servants to the Cabinet. Fourthly; Mr.

Speaker, the New Democratic Par ty Government proposes to give the power to determine the rate of buying taxes in this province to the Cabinet. Fifthly; Mr. Speaker, the New Democratic Party Government proposes to give the power to ... MR 0 SPEAK ER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Minister. MR 0 CHERNI ACK : I'd like to know which bill the honourable member is speaking to. MR , SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'm speaking to the Capital Supply Bill.

I have indicated my intention is to put this into the perspective of what legislation has been proposed and to indicate that what the government is preparing to do is to basically provide almost full and

April 23, 1974 CAPITAL SU PPLY -B ILL 8 (MR . SPI VAK Cont'd) .•••. complete power in the Cabinet without any ability for this Legislature to be able to provide its function in the British tradition that the Honourable Minister of Labour talked about. 27 03 The New Democratic Party Government proposes, fifthly, to give the power to increase or decrease the size of the City of Winnipeg Council to the Cabinet. Sixthly, the New Demo cratic Party Government proposes to give the power to change any and all community boundaries in Winnipeg to the Cabinet.

Seventhly , the New Democratic Party Government pro poses to give the power to establish or abolish community committees in Winnipeg to the Cabinet. And eighthly, the New Democratic Party Government proposes to by-pass the legislative process by borrowing $8 million or taking $8 million from the Special Emergency Loan and Fund Act to increase the tax credit program for homeowners by order of the Cabinet. Now these are eight instances of its major legislation and major economic thrust, all of which, Mr .

Speaker , is to take away from this Legislature and from the Opposition the opportunity for the kind of scrutiny that should be undertaken and for they as Cabinet to have more authority and, Mr. Speaker , we have to fight this with everything we have. We cannot allow this to continue. (Applause) For the first time in the history of Manitoba and so far as I know in the history of Canada the government used a Special Warrant to raise money by order of the Cabinet and I have to ask you, Mr. Speaker , is this really what free and responsible government is to mean ?

Is this really the tradition that we are supposed to honour on St. George's Day as the Honourable Minister of Labour suggested? Mr. Speaker , it must weigh heavily on some of the members opposite who consider themselves parliamentarians and who consider that they want to follow the British parliamentary tradition to understand what is really taking place. I have indicated with respect to the Civil Service Act that it's my opinion that very few members on the opposite side even read the Act or the amendments to the Act before it was introduced.

I don't even think the members of the Cabinet did, I don't think the First Minister did, I don't think many of the backbenchers did. I don't think they realize the power that was being given to the Cabinet or the really destruction and alteration that has taken place to the tradition that I referred to. With respect to mining taxes we don't even know what they will be but we know that it's the government' s proposal that it be given to Cabinet.

That seems to be all right to the members opposite but it still must weigh heavily on those who believe that the Legislature and that parliament have a responsibility to deal with the public purse and the way in which government spends its money and there must be final approval given for expenditures by the Legislatures. It must weigh heavily on some who understand and who have read the proposals to The City of Winnipeg Act. And I doubt whether very many of the members opposite have even read that.

But to give the power to the Cabinet for the alteration of boundaries, to give it the power of being able to in effect determine the size , to be able to in fact aboiish or establish community committees, which really means that the Legislature might as well fold up with respect to this particular item , surely, Mr. Speaker , surely , Mr . Speaker, for those who believe in the parliamentary tradition there must be some concern of what is now another breach, another authority being given to the Cabinet.

And for those who may not think that there is anything significant to the fact that the Premier says we are going to put another $8 million into the pot and we are now going to try and assist and help those people who will be having increases in their municipal taxation by increasing the minimum base of the tax credit base program, and who think that that's an eminently satisfying and sensible proposition, for any of them who believe in the parliamentary tradition, who recognize that we're in the Legislature now when we're dealing - we're half way through dealing with the Estimates - who recognize that all the Minister has to do is bring in a supplementary estimate for that amount, that's all he has to do.

And we debate it and it'll be passed, they have a majority. They should recognize that what really has happened is that there has been another example by those people who are responsible for governing this province and for heading this party to abuse, essentially abuse the power and the trust that's been given to them. Just as, Mr. Speaker , they abuse and they know they have abused the trust that was given to them in dealing with a Special Warrant in a fit of temper on their part with respect to the way in which the proceedings were taking place in the House. They didn't like what was taking place in the House.

Well that's too damned bad. That fact is, Mr. Speaker, that it's not up to them to make that decision. The rules and the procedures that were set up here were set up following the tradition of the British parliamentary

2 704 April 23, 1974 CAPITAL SU PPLY -B ILL 8 (MR . SPIVAK Cont'd) •.••. system to allow for the extensive debate and the Opposition have a right to be able to exercise that and the question at all points is a test of reasonableness of what has happened. Mr. Speaker , it is completely unreasonable for any suggestion to be made by the govern ment that an amount of $8 million should be taken out of any reserve or special fund, Mr. Speaker , without coming directly to the Legislature for a supplementary estimate so the matter could be debated.

And I suggest to you that the motivation entirely was that they did not want the debate to occur , as it must and will in any case, on the rise that is going to take place in municipal taxes in this province , on the meager way in which the Pr ovincial Government is assisting the municipalities and on the sham of the municipal and city revenue-sharing that's been proposed. Mr. Speaker , I've had the opportunity to read the Minister of Finance's statements when he's attended the Dominion-Provincial conferences and talked about the need for increased re venues to be forthcoming from the Fe deral Government.

In that presentation he has always said - and I can quote with some authority although I do not have the specifics - that we know that the biggest burden that will have to be borne will have to be borne by municipalities . In asking the Federal Government for more money he has said our municipalities and cities will require more money ; we require assistance and help; we need more revenues. They are the ones who have to ultimately bear a great additional burden and they do not have the tax base within which to do it.

They then have a $52 million surplus and they originally provided minimum revenue sharing; now they're providing an additional amount, not to the municipalities, but they're going to give it directly to the taxpayer to try and indicate that they have been doing something worthwhile and that they are not the culprits , and in order to do that they're not even going to follow the normal legislative process. Well, Mr. Speaker , it is on their heads and it's on their shoulders , Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the parliamentary tradition, you know, and the sham of the presentation, the emotion of the Minister of Labour , who may not even have understood what was really happening with respect to this is almost uncontrollable, it almost makes one want to vomit. Because , Mr . Speaker , I must tell you that the New Democratic Party are demonstrating in this session and there has been you know - a feeling on their

part is that they cannot understand why the bitterness. They cannot understand the tone. They are upset because of the criticism . They are demonstrating, Mr. Speaker , their complete disregard for tradition, their complete disregard for the parliamentary process, their complete disregard for following the procedures and trying to handle their duties in a responsible manner . They clearly have demonstrated their insecurity; they have demonstrated their arrogance and they continually operate as an affront to the Legislature and to the people of this province . Mr.

Speaker, there is no· way that we on this side having listed all of the requirements in the various Acts that they are trying to undertake giving authority to the Cabinet can in any way sit hy and allow this to happen. Because , Mr. Speaker , we might as well close up shop. We might as well go home. We might as well say to them that they are in fact in control. We might as well give them the authority that they're asking which is the authority of a authoritarian state that can in fact implement its will as they see fit, because they believe, Mr. Speaker , that they know better than the people.

The tradition that the Honourable Minister of Labour has talked about is a tradition that has stood us well, and that tradition has meant that the government has to account in everything that I've suggested, whether it be the Civil Service Commission, whether it be the City of Winnipeg, whether it be the mining tax that will be forthcoming, whether it be this particular amount to be taken out of the special municipal and general emergency fund, whether it be the Special Warrant, in every case they have not been prepared to account. And until they change their tone, Mr.

Speaker, this House will continue to be bitter , because what they are doing is they are doing something that is against the very tradition that the Honourable Minister of Labour spoke so highly of and the very tradition on which most of us were elected and a tradition which we followed in government when we were government and which we are prepared to follow in opposition, and I plead with them to change their ways and to try and bring some common sense to their colle!lgues before they disrupt the system completely and before they bring about in this province a greater division than already exists by their actions and by their authori tarianism.

April 23, 1974 2705 CAPITAL SUPPLY - BILL 8 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney -General. MR . PA WLEY: Mr . Speaker, we've listened intently to the comments by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition during the past few moments but I think that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is working under a misconception, a complete and total misconception as to the process by which this Legislature will be working in respect to the expenditures of the $8 million in regard to the increases in the minimum and the maximums in respect to the tax advances.

There never has been any suggestion to my knowledge by any of my colleagues, by the First Minister or the Minister of Finance, that there will not be introduced to this Legislature a request for authority to spend these moneys. There will be legislation it is my understanding that will be introduced requesting - there will be legislative authority requested which will in fact request the approval of this Legislature for the expenditure of these moneys .

So that for one to suggest that there is a circumvention of the members of this House, for one to suggest that there is a betrayal of the British principles of parliamentary involvement , for one to suggest that this government is doing something in an authoritarian manner is in fact a complete total absolute distortion of the truth in this Legislature . A MEM BER: Hear , hear . MR . PAWLEY: The fact is, Mr.

Speaker , that this government has in fact followed scrupulously an attempt to ensure that the people of this province receive back whatever funds it is possible to return to the people in this province for their own use moneys that are forthcoming . I wonder when under the many years of Conservative governments were there so many programs developed, so many moneys returned to Manitobans in general for their expenditures ? I wonder, Mr .

Speaker , when despite the introduction of taxes by the former Roblin Government , the introduction of the sales tax, five percent, I wonder when despite the fact that revenues increased rapidly when oh when did the Conservative Government of those years return funds to the extent that this government has returned to the pockets of Manitobans? And all that I need refer to, Mr . Speaker , is the fact that during this session .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR .

PAWL EY : During this session this government has seen fit to ensure that all Manitobans regardless of age and location and status receive a complete and full pharmacare program. What is this, Mr. Speaker , but returning moneys to the people of Manitoba for a worthwhile program? When did, for instance , Mr. Speaker , any former government return to the public of Manitoba the type of program that we introduced last year and again this year to provide credits to Manitoba taxpayers in substantial amounts? No, Mr .

Speaker, what we heard from the former Conservative Government in Manitoba was increased taxes without retu rn , just as in the Province of Ontario when their Conservative cousins in the Province of Ontario - and by the way the wealthiest province in Canada with so much of Canada's resources - saw fit to increase sales tax from five percent to seven percent .

This government has followed a deliberate program, election year and non-election year, to return to Manitobans large sums of money either by tax credit programs to those in the .greatest need or to develop programs such as the universal Pharmacare Program which we've witnessed the introduction of during this Legislative Session. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition refers to the City of Winnipeg and the rapid escalation of taxes in the City of Winnipeg. Let me say this, Mr .

Speaker, that all that the City of Winnipeg should do, ought to want to do, is to accept the challenge of this government to introduce a tax on speculative land holdings; and from that sort of source the City of Winnipeg would be able to realize significant sums of moneys which would be used to defray rising taxes . I only trust and hope that the municipal people in the City of Winnipeg will recognize their responsibility to Winnipeggers in general by taking the lead in this direction.

And here I would like to commend the progressive actions by the Ontario Government in developing a speculative tax on land that is being held for speculation. Surely it would not be too much to expect that the City of Winnipeg would want to follow the lead of developing and introducing a tax along these lines in order to ease the burden of rising taxation off the shoulders of Winnipeg taxpayers . But instead of that Mr . Speaker , the City of Winnipeg seems to be intent on following only one course of action - we spend the money, we ask you to give it to us . To give it to us .

Without for a moment attempting to find, to develop and

April 23, 1974 CAPITAL SUPPLY -B ILL 8 (MR. PAWL EY Cont'd) •.... undertake alternative means of taxation such as I suggest this form of taxation would provide. Mr .

Speaker , I can't help but be amazed at the constant hypocrisy across the way when they speak in terms of this government spending millions of dollars without supposedly obtaining authority, when one need only cast one' s mind back a few years ago to the authority to spend millions of dollars in the Churchill Forest Industries Complex when questions were not asked in the Legislature, when there was complete secrecy insofar as the expenditures of millions of dollars are concerned.

And I say the nerve of the Official Opposition in this House to suggest that this government, this government is acting in an authoritarian and top-heavy manner when that is the example that can be related to the people of Manitoba from only a few years back as to the demonstration, the conduct of the former Conservative government in Manitoba prior to 1969. Mr. Speaker, I think that one area emphasizes the concern of this government since its election in 1969. And that is where it is possible, ultimately possible to return to the Manitobans the maximum resources to the fullest use of those in the greatest need.

And if we had the time this afternoon, Mr . Speaker , one could list one after another of the social programs that have been developed and advanced by this government and returned to Manitobans. And this session as I indicate, Mr.

Speaker , with the surplus that this government was embarking upon was only one clear example of where we saw fit to ensure that Manitobans in general would receive the benefits, the complete and full benefits of economic growth in Mani toba over the past year and ensured that in return to Manitobans social programs were developed such as the universal Pharmacare Program, the Tax Credit Programs to provide the greatest economic and social benefit to Manitobans. We make no apologies for that which we have done . We are but proud of the actions that we have undertaken . • . . . . continued next page

April 23, 1974 2707 CAP ITA L SUPPLY - BILL 8 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . JORGENS ON: Mr. Speaker, I cannot resist the temptation tO rise in order to draw attention to the pitiful weakness of the Attorney-General's argument, in attempting to create the impression that through its egalitarian and wealth distribution programs, that they're creat ing a better quality of life for the people of this province.

If that were the case, Si r, there wouldn't be a greater disparity between those who have and those who have not as there is today and has been created by the very policies that the Minister lauds so forcefully now. There wouldn't be the problems of unemployment, problems of welfare and the myriad of other problems that the country is faced with today, were it not for the stupidity and the, perhaps well-meaning but misguided efforts on the part of the likes of honourable gentlemen opposite. Policies that have literally destroyed the economy of this country.

The Minister made a great deal about how they' re returning money to the people. Why take it from them in the first place? All the Minister is doing is saying we tax you to the limit, we take away from you the bulk of which you earn, but look how kind we are when we give some of it back to you. It reminds me of the story of the Sc otchman on his deathbed, which I won't tell in this place, but I think some of my friends know what the story is, but it typifies the kind of attitude toward the economics and the views held by honourable gentlemen opposite. Who created the problem?

Who created the problem that we 're faced with today if it wasn't the likes of my friends opposite ? Not only those in this proVince but the whole kit and kaboodle of them in Ottawa, those who purport to be the government and those 31 barnacles that have attached themselves to the ship of state and who are actually running the government in Ottawa. Who are guiding the destiny of the government in Ottawa. My honourable friends you know from time to time-- (Interjection) -- That's a real good quest ion. Why don't they bring them down?

From time to time they stand up in this House, as indeed the Leader of the NDP party does and say "Now is the time", "Now we're going to oust them". But what happens, what happens. They look at the polls, they check their popularity across the country and they chicken out every time. I tell you, Sir, the main reason, everybody knows the main reason why the delay. The pension plan comes into effect on the 25th of June and there's no way they're going to disturb that.

And secondly, they don't want an election until the 15th of July because that's when the new Elections Act takes effect and each one of them will receive about $10, 000 with which to conduct their election campaign. No secret as to the reason why they're delaying the election in Ottawa. A MEMBER: Has nothing to do with principle? MR. JORGENSON: Nothing to do with principle is right. I'm always grateful for the assistance provided by the Honourable Member for Lake side whose contribution adds to the debate at any time, whether it's mine or his.

The Attorney-General talks about when did he say, when did a government ever contri bute so much, did a government ever do so much to help people. I' ll tell you when. When the Honourable Duff Roblin was the Pr emier of this province. The relative ease and calm with which this city goes about its business today is a result of $68 million spent by the government at that time, use a little foresight, to do those things - not those things that people can do for themselves, but to do those things that people cannot do for themselves. --(I nterj ection)-- That, Mr. Speaker, is the role of government.

I draw attention to the schools that were built. I draw attention to the roads that were constructed in this province. And I draw attention to the super structure or the infrastructure that was created in this province so that people could help them selves. What these people opposite have done, Sir, is to take away the drive and the initiative and the desire of those people to create a better world and a better life for themselves. And they have the stupid audacity to stand up in this House here and say they're doing great things for this province. What poppycock, to quote the Minister of Labour.

Every policy, every program that is ever carried out by this government has one purpose in mind, one purpose only. Politics and control. The people of this province and their welfare are the last thing to be con sidered, and honourable gentlemen opposite know it. Sir, I rose primarily to deal with two subje cts but I couldn't resist the temptation to draw attention to the Attorney -General some of the statements that he made and how ridiculous they sound to people who know better.

I want to deal, Sir, with two items that appear in this bill, one dealing with the Manitoba Agr icultural Credit Corporation and the other dealing with the Manitoba Development

2708 April 23 , 1974 CAPITAL SUPPLY - BILL 8 (MR . JORGEN SON cont'd) ..... Corporation, at some time attempting to focus attention on the problem that I want to deal with insofar as the Manitoba Development Corporation is con cerned during the question period. An d since the rules of the House prevented me from dealing with it during the question period in the manner in which I would like to I am going to take this opportunity of doing so.

An d I am referring specifically, and I want to draw attention to a statement that was made this af ternoon by the Minister of Industry and Commerce when he gratuitous ly suggested that if the garment industry in this province were to treat their workers fa irly they wouldn't have any trouble attracting workers. Well, Mr. Speaker, I tell the govern ment "physician heal thyself". I draw attention to two letters that were written to the Premier.

One from a group of workers in - a number of people who sign themselves a group of concerned workers in the Flyer Coach Industries plant at Fort Garry, in which they drew attention to the kind of treatment that they're getting from management at that plant. And let me remind honourable gentlemen oppo site that it's their plant, they own it. They control the management. They determine who will be managing that plant and who won't. They control its destiny.

And I want to also mention, Sir, that two years ago on the request of the Premier I wrote a letter to him, he asked for my opinions about Flyer Coach Industr ies. I gave them to him and I pointed out at that time it was an operation that could become viable. It was an industry that could survive, it could compete. But it could only do so if the government would have a careful examination of the methods by which management conducted and ran that plant.

That under the present management at that time it was doomed to fai lure and doomed to do nothing more than to continue to extract money out of the pockets of the taxpayer. Well I asked for an invest igation at that time. None was carried out. Nothing was done to ensure that that operation was carried out in a way that it could make a profit. And the At torney-General has the audacity to talk about - they have a lot of fun talking about CFI. Look at themselves. Look at the way they run Saunders. Look at the way they run Flyer Coach Industries .

There's $30 million down the drain there right now and it'll never be recovered. A MEMBER : They're doing it wilfully, they weren't conned into it. MR. JORGENSON: Then one gets a letter such as this . Since when have workers in a plant been treated to the extent that they have to write the Premier of the province to draw attention to the kind of management that they are suffering under. I just draw attention to the two items. An absenteeism rate that we estimate to be close to ten percent. Unheard of. A MEMBER: Where ? Flyer Industries ? MR . JORG ENSON: Flyer Coach Industries in Fort Garry.

A high rate of industrial accidents . A lot of people on compensation and a lot more who go to hosp ital but don't end up missi ng work beyond that. A high turnover rate. At the Fort Garry plant we think it might be as high as 25 percent since January 1, 19 74. And an unbelievably highrate of waste. Sir, a num ber of people who work at that plant or worked at the Morris plant which has now been foolishly and unneces sarily transferred to Transcona, come from Morris. Sir, there is a deliberate program on the part of the management in Transcona plant to get rid of the Morris workers. A MEMBER : Right. MR .

JORGENSON: Everyone of them. An d one by one they're doing exactly that. Sir, under what circumstances, in any other free enterprise plant, would the manager of that plant announce over the loudspeaker to ask one person to report to him and hand him his severance pay and tell him not to come back. Give him no reason why he's fired. Give him no opport unity to appeal. No other place. And honourable gentlemen opposite have the stupid audacity to say that the garment industry don't treat their workers as they should. Then there's the very next day another letter.

The Minister of Labour when I raised it to his attent ion complained that the letter wasn't signed so therefore he's going to do nothing about it. Didn't matter that there were some grave charges raised in that letter. That doesn't matter. Oh no he had to have a letter signed. Well he got one signed the next day, and this one was by the Reg ional Vice President of the Canadian As soc iation of Industrial, Mechanical and Allied Workers. An d what did he have to say ?

I'm just going to summarize the last paragraph, and this letter obviously was written af ter the Minist er of Labour made his useless contribution in the House on Wednesday. "Contrary to Mr. Paulley's statement that he does not interfere in a plant where a union is formed, he is ignoring the situation in which the government itself is the employer, and perhaps it is in his own interest to ignore the plight of the employees."

April 23, 1974 2709 CAPITAL SUPPLY - BILL 8 (MR. JORGEN SON cont'd) ..... Since when would a union repres entative and under what circumstances would a union representative write that to a Ministe r of Labour ? Only if he felt that ther e were some very ser ious breaches of management procedures going on; only if he felt there were some terrible things being done to the people who are employed in that plant, and the governme nt are condoning it.

But since I raised this matter the other day, not one word, not one word has been uttered by honourab le gentlemen opposite as to whether or not an investigation is being carried out. MR . ENNS: Not a word. MR. JORG ENSON: Not a single thing has been done, and I'm willing to bet, Sir, that nothing will be done. They, Sir, are the people who continue to talk about other people, about free enterpr ise, how they treat your workers . Then there's a paragraph in the letter that says never ... A MEMBER : This is from a union man. MR.

JORGENSON: ... never in their experience have they ever attempted to--h ave they ever known of a situation where a free enterprise company ever treated their employees in a way that this company treats their employees . A MEMBER: Unbelievable. MR . JORG ENSON: Well, Sir, the governm ent sits . I doubt very much if anything is ever going to be done.

For some reason--and I challenge honourable gentlemen opposite- -for some reason, management of that plant has got that government over a barrel somehow, and I would sure like to know ju st what it is he has on him that he is hosing to the taxpayer in the way he is, in the way he is without the government doing something to intervene, without the government carrying on some kind of an investigation to determine what the cause of the problem is in that plant. I challenge them. I challenge them to take some action.

I challenge them to do some thing about a situat ion which they destroyed, and if it were carried on by a free enterprise com pany they wouldn't tolerate for one minute--w ouldn't tolerate for one minute. What a bunch of sanctimonious hypocrites , Sir, talking out of both sides of their mouth, attempting to create the impress ion that they are the, oh, they're the great supporters of the workers. But when they have an opportunity to look into the grievances drawn to their attention, drawn to the Premier's attention, they sit and they do nothing. That's the kind of action that we get from this government, Sir.

Now, Si r, the other matter that I want to raise at this time is contained in the report of the Ombudsman and deals with a subject that I raised in this House again through the question period but, knowing full well that it could not be explored during that particular time of day, I decided to leave it until an opportunity would prov ide itself. It has, on the second reading of this particular bill.

I'm referring, Sir, to a loan that had been made to a company in Dauphin, the Dauphin Hog Farms, and without referring to any of the correspondence - one does not have to do that because It's all contained, or at least the relevant parts are contained in the report of the Ombudsman - I draw your attent ion, Sir, to Page 28 of the Ombudsman's Report in which he is describing the contents of a letter that was sent to the applicants for the loan, in which they said in part: "We are pleased to advise that your application fo r a loan has been submitted to our Board of Directors and, af ter ful l consideration of the information available, the Manitoba Agr icultural Credit Corporation, referred to in this letter as the Corporation, is prepared to grant you a loan of $164, 000 and a guarantee on an additional line of credit of $15, 000 at the bank or credit union of our choice, subj ect to compliance with the Corporation's regulations and requirements which we are endeavouring to summarize in this letter.

As you will see, there are a great many points to be covered in this respect, and you should carefully consider your ability to comply with all condition s. No loan funds can be advanced until all conditions are complied with to the sati sfaction of the Corporation. " That, Sir, as referred to by the Ombudsman, was a Letter of Commitment.

Now, there were some legal technicalities that had to be cleared up before the loan could be granted pursuant to the conditions set forth in the letter , and in order to do that, the appli cants had to apply to a bank to clear off other debts, which they did in compliance with the Letter of Acceptance by the Farm Credit Corporation. The bank paid off three creditors pre viously named. In one case, the Industrial Development Bank was paid off $49, 000 plus a pre payment of $2, 310. A total of $117, 000 plus the $2, 310 penalty was paid off on behalf of the borrowers.

They borrowed that money on the strength of the letter received from the Manitoba Agr icultural Credit Corporation.

2710 April 23 , 1974 CA PITAL SUPPLY - BILL 8 (MR . JORGE NSON cont'

d) Subsequent to that, Sir, on February--the original letter came to them on September 17th, 1971.

Subsequent to that, February 11th, 1972- -and I draw your attention, Si r, and it may not be a coincidence to many people in this House, that in the intervening period a certain Max Hofford was appointed as Chairman of the Manitoba Agric ultural Credit Corporation, and I assure you, Sir, that perhaps there is nothing more than a coincidence here, but it's a coinci dence that I could not overlook--on February 11th, 1972, the owners of the Hog Farm received a letter from the MACC, in which it was advised that owing to the short duration of the Clean Environment Commission licence and the uncertainties thereafter, the Board of Directors with drew approval of the loan.

One of the conditions that were set forth,one of the twenty conditions that were set forth in the letter, the original letter sent out by the MACC, was that a licence must be obtained from the Clean Environment Commission. The licence was applied for and approved. But strangely, the Clean En vironment Commission--an d this is a rather strange part about this whole episode--although the Clean Environment Commission provided the licence, it provided the licence only on the basis of a year's duration.

And here we have one branch of government saying we're going to grant you the loan for $164, 000, and another branch of government, after the loan has been granted, €ffectively denying them the right to use that money. The matter was brought to the attention of the Ombudsman. It was also brought to the attention of legal counsel for the applicants, and I want to now read a portion of the Ombudsman's report in which he dealt with this particular objection on the part of the MACC to proceed with the loan.

He said: "After further reflection and consultation with my own legal counsel, legal counsel for the complainants, and the local solicitor for the MACC, I was of the opinion that the September 17, 1971 letter from the MACC to the owners of the hog farm was a Letter of Commitment, such a letter being regarded as a ser ious statement by the lender outlining the conditions under which the loan shall be made and to be relied upon by the borrowers and those who provide interim financing pending finalizing of the loan.

If it is accepted the said letter was a Letter of Commitment, it then logically follows it was a commitment upon which the Board of Directo

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-99
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 99.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9914a89f08b3e39f4c37a37f37cd9516108c1dd6

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