Manitoba Hansard — 1 December 1977 (Sitting 8, 31st Legislature, 1st Session)

31-1-8

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 First Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Vol. XXV No. 8 26 EI izabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker 10:00 a.m.Thursday, December 1, 1977 Printed by P. N. Crosbie - Queens Printer for the Province of Manitoba

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Thursday, December 1, 1977 Time:10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham {Birtle-Russell): I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery on my left, where we have 36students of Grade 11and 12 standing of the Roseau Valley Colle giate. These students are under the direction of Mr . Asher. This school is located in the constituency of the Honour able Memb er for Emerson. On behalf of all honourable members, I bid you welcome. Presenting Petitions ... Read ing and Receiving Petitions ...

Presenting Repo rts by Standing and Special Committees ... Min isterial Statements and Tabling of Reports ... Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills .. . ORAL QU ESTION S MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr . Speaker, in the absence of the minister to whom the Manitoba Deve lopment Corporation reports, I'd like to pose a question to the First Min ister, as head of the government.

Is the directive to discontinue any advances to commercial corporations issued by this government, is that to apply to Chur chill Forest Ind ustries which has required more advances in the last two years than - ten times as much as any of the other corporations operated by the Manitoba Development Corporation? lst hatirective to apply to Chur chill Forest Indus tries? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON {Charleswood): Mr . Speaker, I wou ld have to take that specifically as notice. My impression is that it does not apply, but I would have to take it as notice. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I'm happy to see that the government is flexible. Does the directive, Mr. Speaker, apply to Morden Fine Foods, in which a private company abandoned an industry in the commun ity and which the public has maintained for several years, and which has an opportu nity of operating successfully and thereby providing a very good integrated industry in middle -western Manitoba? MR. LYON: We'll take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for lnkster with a final supplemen tary. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr .

Speaker, I gather, and I wish to be corrected if I' m wrong, that when the First Minister says that he takes that question as notice, that it impl ies that there is a possibility that the directive does not apply to Mor den Fine Foods. MR. LYON: You can gather what you want. I took it as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. EDWARD SCHREYER {Rossmere): Mr .

Speaker, now that the Mi nister of Health is with us, I should like to ask the question I had in mind and that is to ask the honourable minister if he can either report progress with respect to talks relating to the work stoppage at Misericord ia, or alternatively, that he has made definitive plans to meet directly with the two parties to the dispute. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Health. HON. L.R. {BUD ) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr . Speaker, I can't report progress in the sense thatthe Leader of the Opposition is seeking.

I can report continuation of discussions and negotiations between the union and the negotiators for the hospital and the Man itoba Health Services Commission. I have not been asked for direct intervention. I would like to feel that the disp ute can be settled through the normal colle ctive bargaining process without intervention on my part. I would stand ready to intervene if that request is forthcoming. At the moment my und erstanding is that the hospital is operating on a "work to rule " basis with a patient-load approximately between 160 and 180 patients and that there are no emergency situations. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. 209

Thursday, December 1, 1977 MR. SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, I have no problem whatsoever accepting the minister's word that he has not been asked for direct intervention. Bu t given that he has on previous occasions, in identical circumstances, both asked and urged his predecessor to intervene directly at an early stage whenever there was a work stoppage at a health care institution, can he now indicate that he is at least giving serious consider ation to doing what he used to preach? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr .

Speaker, and I am also giving serious consideration to allowing normal colle ctive bargaining processes to achieve a succes sfu l result. If they fail to do so and if a crisis situation emerges, then intervention will doubtle ss be necessary. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Before we proceed I would like to correct an error that has come to my attention. The school that we have in the gallery is the W.C. Mill er Colle giate from Altona, and that is in the constituency of the Honourable Me mber for Rhineland. There are 32 students under the direction of a Mr . Sm ith.

On behalf of all members, we welcome you here today. The Honourable Memb er for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General. In his remarks introducing the legislation on family law a few even ings back, he indicated that he foresaw major problems with the federal income tax changes. Could he tell us when his last contact has been with officials of the federal government to determ ine what their inclination or their willingness is to make those changes in the immediate futu re? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, Sir, I can itemize the last commun ications. There was a letter in October - I don't remember the precise date from the Federal Minister of Finance to the Honourable Saul Mill er, the then Minister of Finance - indicating that these amendments to the Income Tax Act were proposed. There was a letter to me dated November 14th of this year, from Honour able Ron Basford, indicating that amendments were in the process of being considered. I have written yesterday, Mr . Speaker, to the Honour able Ron Basford, pointing out the urgency of the requi red amendment. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Me er for Fort Rouge with a supplem entary. MR. AXWORTHY: Yes, a supple mentary, Mr . Speaker. Can I take from the minister's answer then that he has had no direct personal conversation or discussion with any federal official concerning what steps they wou ld be prepared to take to accommodate the position in Manitoba in relation to the Income Tax Act? MR. MERCIER: No, I have not yet, Sir, but I intend to follow that through and speak personally to Mr . Basford.

I might add in addition that I believe every Attorney-General in Canada is expressing interest in amendments to the Inc ome Tax Act in order to introduce marital property legislation in their provinces. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Speaker, that raises the question, is the Attorney-General prepared to withdraw the legislation he introduced if in fact federal officials indicate they are prepared to make the necessary changes in the In come Tax Act to accommodate the enforcement of the Family Law as it was originally prescribed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr .

Speaker, Sir, the question is hypothetical, and we will wait to see what the results are. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I add ress my question to the Min ister of Labour, the minister in charge of the Civil Service.

In view of the answer that she gave me the other day in the question period, that all mem bers of the Civil Service Commission have been notified of meetings and subsequent checking has found out that this is not so, can she assure the House that now that she is taking steps to ensur e that all members of the Civil Service Commission are notified of meetings? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Labour. HON. NORMA PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr . Speaker, on speaking to Mr . Newton, I und erstand that it has been a practice of the previous government to insite people to meetings on a rotating basis. 210

Thursday, December 1, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Logan with a suppleme ntary. MR. JENKINS: No, Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the First Mi nister. He may wish to take this question as notice. Can the First Mi nister tell this House in approximate cost - and since we're in a period of restraint - what the swearing-in ceremonies of the Cabinet cost to the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba, since it was one of the most elaborate in living memory in history of this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr .

Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honour able Mi nister without Portfolio who is co-chairman of a task force on government organization and economy. Would he be good enough to explain to the Hous e what he means by the first sentence in his November 22nd press release, wherein he says, in part, "written submi ssions from the general publi c and from civil servants aimed at furthering its objectives." Whose objectives? HON. SIDNEY SPIVAK (River Heights): Mr . Speaker, the objectives of the task force. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Burrows. MR. HANUS CHAK: Mr .

Speaker, I have a que stion for the Honour able Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cul tural Affairs - or no, I suppose it's in his capacity as Minister of Indus try and Commerce. A day or two ago, he indicated to the House, he had expressed an interest and desire, that in the cou rse of disposing assets of crown corporations, he would want to see to it that jobs for Manitobans are preserved. But, about two weeks ago, he had advised us that he had cancelled reservations for the MS Lord Selk irk for the following operational year. How does one square with the other in his mind? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for ln kster. MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker, I'd like to direct a qu estion to the Mi nister of Health. Is the Minister of Health intent on continuing government policy that institutions within the ambit of his ju risdiction will be encou raged, that price and quali ty being equal, to give Morden Fine Foods produc ts, which are excellent products produ ced by the people of the province of Manitoba, a fair shake in food pu rchases hy those institutions? 8MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Mi nister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr .

Speaker, there's no decision on that specific qu estion as yet, but I think that I can assure the minister that the fair shake that he has referred to will continue to be offered. MR. GREENr. Speaker' I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works.

Would the minister in his capacity as being responsible, I believe, for government purchasing - do I have the correct minister? - see to it that previous provisions which did not even permit Morden to bid on contracts In institutions directly owned and controlled by the administ ration of the government of Manitoba will not continue and that Morden Fine Foods will be able to have an equal right to supply food in those institutions, price and quality being equal? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Pu blic Works. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr . Chairman, I wish to take part of the question as notice.

I can simply indicate to the honourable minister that, in general, the intent of the Purchasing Act of Manitoba will be carried out in its completeness, that in as many instances as possible, if not all, the fu ll and open tender system will be adhered to. I certainly want to rescind any Cabinet directives or orders which emanated from the honourable members opposite that directed certain Manitobans as to what beans and vegetables they can or cannot eat. MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker, a supplem entary question.

I assume that the department will no longer, as in previous years and even dur ing the many years under our administration, to my regret, that the department will not be permitted to specify Heinz or Libbys when asking people to bid on contract. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Pu blic Works. HO N. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): That que stion is a fair qu estion, I'll accept that as notice and review the past and the cu rrent pur chasing practices of the department of pu blic works. MR. SPEAKER: I want to remind the member for lnkster that he has had two suppleme ntaries already. MR.

GREEN: I believe that I just asked two qu estions of this honourable minister, Mr . Speaker. 211

Thursday, December 1, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: That leaves one more question. MR. GREEN: The next question, Mr. Speaker, will also be an important and significant one. Would the honourable minister also, Mr. Speaker, see to it that in the tendering procedure, sub trades are required in their bids to have inclusion of a Morden product as part of the bid at least as an alternate, so that sub-trades are not able to circumvent the purchasing of goods produced by the farmers of the province of Manitoba. -(Interjection)- We tried, yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable first minister. In view of the fact that this virtuous government stated that it wants to live up to the intent of the law, has he considered the intent of the law seeing that he can't remove any commisioners from the Civil Service Commission, to name additional people and then leave the others in effect off the commision. Does he feel this is in the intent of the law or not mocking the law? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know if my honourable friend intended his question to be facetious or not. ' The additions made and the alterations made in the Civil Service Commission were made pursuant to amendments to that act which were brought in by the honourable members opposite when they were in government. MR. DESJARDI NS: Isn't it a fact, Mr. Speaker, that you can't in effect remove any commissioner without the two-thirds vote of this House? MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member for St. Boniface will wait until he is recognized, then I would allow him to proceed with his question. The Honourable Member for St.

Boniface, if he has a question. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. Given the reference to amendments made to the act in recent years, I should like to ask if there is anything in the act that authorizes the convening of meetings of the commission without due notice to those who are still members of the commission, or any one of them. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I believe that

interpretation of any statute may require legal opinion and those types of questions are, I understand, not supposed to be asked in this Chamber. MR. SCHREYER: I am not asking for a legal opinion, Mr. Speaker. I am asking whether the · government is satisfied that it is acceptable procedure that meetings of the Civil Service Commission should be convened without due normal notice to all members who constitute that commission. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I was rather intrigued with the answer given to the House by the Minister of Public Works on the question of consumer preferences within the institutions of Manitoba. I am wondering whether the Minister of Public Works would indicate to the House whether they inquire from each patient at the Selkirk and Brandon institutions as to whether they wish to have Heinz or Alymers or whatever it is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR.

ENNS: I really thought that I had made that very Clear that it is our intention not to do that kind of inquiry, but more important not to tell them what to do, which the previous minister of public works did. And that includes, I may say Mr. Speaker, whether or not they would choose to eat black beans. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, a question to the minister of public works without any

preamble of a facetious nature as to black beans or red beans or whatever. I should like to ask the minister of public works if he is aware that provinces that do exercise a five percent preference, in terms of the ordering of supplies produced and manufactured within the province, are engaging in the practice of telling anyone what should be done. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm very much aware that some provinces do have that preferential treatment within their jurisdiction and show that preferential treatment to suppliers of goods and 212

Thursday, December 1, 1977 services , particularly sometimes in the construction industry. I think, to the credit of the province of Manitoba, we have stayed away from that kind of preferential treatment which brings about basic costs and dilutes the effectiveness of the tender system. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHR EYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I obviously, under the rules, can't argue the point whether this is a normal or rather unusual practice in Canada but I would ask the honourable minister to check to see how many provinces are, in fact, engaging in that kind of policy.

My question, Sir, is to the Minister of Public Works still having to do with the tender process. ls the Minister of Public Works in a position to confirm or deny that, indeed, in 1969 and previous years that two officials of the government of the province of Manitoba, working in the Department of Industry and Commerce I believe, were on the road taking up orders for Canadian Canners Limited, at that time operating at Morden, and on the government payroll? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'll accept that question as notice. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Attorney-General. In view of the Attorney General's acknowledgement on CBC radio that he was unable to provide an answer insofar as his position in regard to extension of equal sharing to commercial assets and to fault being a factor in the awarding of maintenance orders, is it his intention to refer those unresolved matters to the board of review for their recommendations? · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, Sir, I believe with respect to the comment that was made with respect to whether or not I could give a personal commitment to 50-50 sharing of commercial assets, I believe that I indicated no, and that would only be in keeping with the existing legislation, which does provide for some little jurisdiction.

The question with respect to fault, I think, was a concern that I indicated had been expressed by a number of people when I introduced the bill and was a matterthat would probably be reviewed by the review committee in their consideration of the Law Reform Commission Report which did indicate some support for fault and they may also consider that in connection with other legislation in other provinces. MR. PAWLEY: A supplementary. The Honourable Attorney-General also indicated or announced on the CBC program that he favoured the submission of written briefs to the board or review rather than briefs in person.

Has that preference on his part been conveyed to the board of review? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Selkirk with a final supplementary. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Attorney-General also announced that he would prefer that matters pertaining to personal briefs be dealt with by a legislative committee. Is he proposing that as per his announcement on CBC radio that there will be the establishment of a legislative committee, a special legislative committee, dealing with family law? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I believe what I indicated was that if, in fact, there were written submissions made to the review committee that these wou Id be available to any legislative committee which had an opportunity at some point in time to review any proposed amendments. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. HANU SCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce and ask him whether the course of action taken with respect to the business operations of the Lord Selkirk will serve as a precedent for the manner in which he would deal with other corporations which he may be of a mind to sell. That is, to cancel whatever purchase orders they may have for whatever goods or services that they may provide. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. ROB ERT (BOB) BANMAN (LaVe rendrye): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to answer thatquestion plus the one posed previously by the Member for Burrows. First of all, let me say that when we to.ok 213

Thursday, December 1, 1977 office we were forced to pass an Order in Council tor $1 56,000 to keep the offices of Venture Tours and the Gu ll Harbor Lodge open. Yesterday in Cabinet we passed another Order in Counci l for $1 12,000 additional funds required to jus t meet commitments on payables from the Lord Selkir k and others. The reason that we had to move fast on the MS Lord Selkirk is, we would like to ask, and we will be putting the ads in the papei in a very short time hoping that we can get some response back from people that are interested in operating that boat before the end of the year.

The reasons for the urgency of this particular matter is exactly the que stion that my honourable frie nd has referred to, and that is, we would like to see the boat go ahead and operate next year and theonly way we can do that is try and get somebody to take it over now so that they can advertise properly in the proper tour books and that type of thing to make sur e that there are a number of people around that will take advantage of this tou rist facility. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Mr .

Speaker, as a follow-up to the Honourable Min ister of Ind ustry and Commerce's statement on the Lord Selkir k. I believe that the position is to attempt to sell this enterprise. On the assump tion that a worthwhile bid may not be forthcoming ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I remind the mem ber that qu estions of assumption are not permitted in our Chambers. MR. EVANS: Mr . Speaker, then I'll ask the question.ls the Min ister of Ind ustry and Commerce prepared to guarantee the operation of the Lord Sel kirk in the forthcoming tourist seasonof 1978?

Is he prepared to guarantee the operation or is he going to sit in dry dock? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Industry and Commerce. MR. BANMAN: Mr . Speaker, it's too soon to say. I'm an optimist, I've always been an optimi'st, and I think that we'll be able to find a private entrepreneur that will operate the facility. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Brandon East. MR.

EVANS: Wei I, the Honour able Mi nister of Ind ustry and Commerce sounds very optimistic but I have no confidence that he's - (I nterject ion) - I wonder if the Honour able Minister of Ind ustry and Commerce can be more explic it as to the possibilities of having that vessel operate as a tou rist asset in the forthcoming year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHREYER: Wel l, Mr . Speaker, I ask the que stion only because the minister is a self proclaimed optimist.

I would ask him if his optimism is such that he feels that the public announcement of cancellation of the receiving of reservations in any way enhances prospects of sale at considered value? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Ind ustry and Comme rce. MR. BANMAN: Mr . Speaker, it is my understand ing that if the sale is done within the very near furtu re, like we are proceed ing along those lines now, that there should not be any adverse effects with regard to some of those contracts. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker' again, my question is based on some premise of optimism as well. ls my honourable friend the Min ister of Industry and Commerce optimistic that this same vessel can operate with a rate of return, as is indeed necessary in the private sectorgiven the fact that its inception was under the very same circumstances of shareholder stock company operations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Indus try and Commerce. MR. BANMAN: Mr .

Speaker, again coming back to my previous statement, we are proceed ing on the optimistic presump tion that we're going to find some people that are interested in operating the facil ity. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for lnkster. MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker, given the fact that the previous efficient private people who operated it got $750 of yours and my money, of public money, to make them private efficient operaters who then went boke, would the minister und ertake to this House, that in any sale to the private sector, any 214

Thursday, December 1, 1977 publ ic financing will be disclosed, any public operating sub sid ies will be e disclosed or any publ ic assistance of whatever other nature will be disclo sed to this Legislature, which it wasn't the firsttime we gave them the 750,000. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of In dus try and Commerce. MR. BANMAN: Mr . Speaker, the arrangements, or the sale, or the lea sing of that particular enterprise will be made public to the Legislature. And, let me ju st say, Mr.

Speaker, that there was an offer made to the previous administration for over 200,000 for that particular facility, and we've lost almost a million dol lars in operating since that particular offer was turned down by the previous administration. We might have been much better off to sell it at that time and have the public sector operate it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Mr . Speaker, ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. The Honour able Me mber for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I'd like to ask a question of the Min ister of Ind ustry and Commerce.

Can he advise the members of the House whether the government, through the MD C, will be placing a reserve bid on this particular asset? In other words, is there a limit below which you will not sell this vessel - 200,000, or will you sell it for a dol lar, or fifty cents, or is it a million, or jus t what is the limit to which you will go? MR. BANMAN: Mr . Speaker, and here we come back to a problem that the previous minister in charge of the Man itoba Development Corporation had with regards to public companies and the laundering of those particular financial responsibilities within the public sector.

Let me say that the province of Manitoba was not ready to lose the additional $250,000 to $300,000 that were projected loss operating costs for the next year, and therefore we will be looking at all the different proposals that are made, and the one that we feel is the best one will be aired to the publ ic. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr . Speaker, I wish to ask the Minister of Agricultur e whether it is his intention to introduce soon the regulations with respect to the Farmlands Protection Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Agricultur e. HON.

JIM DOWNEY (Arthur): I would like to take that question as notice, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Lac du Bon net with a supple mentary. MR. US KIW: No, it's not a supp lementary. It's a second qu estion to the same minister, Mr . Speaker, and that is, what is going to be the amount of the su bsidy under the Beef Income Assurance Program this zear? MR. DOWNEY: Mr . Speaker, there will be an official annou ncement coming forward in the near future, and the minister will be made aware of it as soon as it is available. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Fort Rouge. '. � MR.

AXWORTHY: Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Mi nister of Health and Social Development. A MEMB ER: When you make jobs in the city, it's welfare - they're bums in the city, but if they're farmers, give it to them. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please, Order, please. MR. AXWORTHY: I thought I was asking a que stion. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. May I suggest to all members that if they want to make statements, that they do it at the proper time on the Order Paper.

If they want to ask a que stion, let them be recognized in the normal manner, and if they want to talk to their neighbour, I suggest they do it outside the Chamber. Now, the Honour able Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I believe I was asking a que stion to the Minister of Health and Social Development. I wonder if the minister could ind icate to the Hous e whether, in fact, the government has under taken a major cutback in the staffing and servicing to the community 215

Thursday, December 1, 1977 mental home arrangements in the province of Man itoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr . Speaker, most assuredly not. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Speaker, in that respect then, cou ld the minister explain why it is that in the · particular group home at 720 Ebby, there has been a cutback to one staff person from a previous complement of two or three, and that the training programs have been severely cut back at that particula r home? MR. SHERMAN: No, I can't explain that, Mr . Speaker, but I'll get an explanation for the honourable member. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Fort Rouge, with a final qu estion. MR. AXWORTHY: Yes, Mr . Speaker, just a final suppl ementary. Can the minister indicate whether any discussions have been held with officials of the Canadian Me ntal He alth Association to determine what the futur e prospects of the commun ity mental health program will be in the province? Is it going to be expanded? Will it be frozen, or has there been any discussion as to where it goes from here? MR. SHERMAN: Wel l, Mr .

Speaker, the fate and the direction of the commun ity mental health program is similar to that faced by all programs in the social development, social assistance, and commun ity service field at the present time. I'm meeting with all external agencies that I can on the limited

schedule that's been available to me to date and with my departmental officials, reviewing programs and proposed projections for the coming fiscal year. It's our intention to maintain all essential services. MR. SPEAKER: May I point out that there's five minutes left in the question period. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, to the Min ister of Health. In the event that he has already made a statement on this, I apologize for even asking.

The qu estion is, can the Minister of Health indicate to the Hous e and to those directly concerned and interested, whether the government wi 11 proceed with the plateauing of day care service support, or whether there will be, and is already, some alteration of the level of operation and suppor t? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr . Speaker, I recognize that the Leader of the Opposition has a legitimate interest in all these subjects, and rightly so, but I would ju st say to him, with all respect, Mr .

Speaker, that many of the questi ons being asked both by him and by his colleagues, probe very deeply into the area of policy. When I was on the other side of the Hous e, we never had an answer from this side with respect to any subject touching on government pol icy. We are trying to co operate in providing as much information as we can at the present time, but that's obviously a question that's being reviewed by the Executive Council right now. I'll announce it as soon as I have some policy announcement to make in that area. MR. SCHREYER: I do not believe that my qu estion asked for an indication of policy.

I asked whether the minister can confirm or indicate whether the cu rrent- the very cu rrent, in fact operation level - is one of plateauing, or whether there is some modification already at work, in which case, that's obviously not a matter of policy yet to be implemented. MR. SHERMAN: Wel l, I suppose the question is semantics, Mr. Speaker. There is no modification already at work in terms of dol lars and cents. There may be modification at work in wide areas in terms of assessment and review, but there is no financial modification at work. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Sel kirk. MR. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General. Could the Attorney-General advise the House as to whether a decision has yet been made in regard to the appointment of a new chairman of the Law Reform Comm ission? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: No, Sir, there has not yet been a decision on theappointment of a new chairman. In fact, the position is to be readvertised in a relatively short time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Selkirk with a suppleme ntary. 216

Thursday, December 1, 1977 MR. PAWLEY: No, it's not a supplem entary. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr . Speaker, I'd like to add ress this question through you to the government Hous e Leader. The government is a party of trad ition, and is the government House Leader prepared to assure this House at this time, that when the family law legislation goes to the Law Amend ments Committee, that the traditional useage of hearing pu blic representation will be continued? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able House Leader. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Mo rris): Mr .

Speaker, that assurance has already been given. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Bu rrows. MR. HANU SCHAK: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honour able Minister of Indus try and Commerce. Could he advise the House whether discuss ions and/or negotiations are under way between him and anyone in his department responsible to him with a firm known as Paddlewheel Boats, which operates the Paddlewheel Queen and the Padd lewheel Princess with respect to the acquisition of the the Lord Selkir k. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of In du stry and Commerce. MR. BANMAN: Mr .

Speaker, let me say that we have not placed any ads in the newspapers but we have had some real good exposure, front page exposure, and we have had a lot of enquir ies on people asking about that particular facility so that very easily could be that some people on the staff, my deputy minister of Tour ism, Recreation and Cultur al Affairs, is handling those calls and it could very easily be that he has not had a call from those people. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of NORTH ERN Affairs. HON. KEN MacMASTER(Th ompson): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would ju st like to reply to a qu estion from the Honour able Member for Rupertsland yesterday in regard to the size of the fish mesh in Lake Winnipegosis. Were you saying from 4 to 4 %? Was that your question? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Ste. Rose for explanation .. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: Mr . Speaker, the question I asked of the minister was whether he had any plans to reduce the net size from 4 % to 4. MR. MacMASTER: Mr .

Speaker, I have reviewed to the best of my ability within a few short hours the situation and it is my under standing that approximately two to three years ago I'm sure I will be corrected by the Memb er for ln kster - the Member for lnkster met with the fishermen and told them at that time that they had three options, I believe. One was to go to 4 % immed iately; one was to phase it in; one was to take notice that three years hence they would be required to use a 4 %.

Following that, the Honourable Memb er for Rupertsland became involved as the minister, and rightly so, and the order was not fol lowed through, or the suggestion was not followed through. I understand that early last spring or early summ er, a directive on the order of the minister was sent to all the fishermen in that area telling them that the size of the fish net would in fact increase to 4 % as the Honou rable Me mber for lnkster had originally indicated. Sub sequent to that, within two to three weeks, the order was changed and a portion of the lake has been designated to use 4 % fish net.

It is sort of confusing and to say exactly what my policy will be at this point, I can't tel l you, but that's where we stand now, that certain parts of that lake are requi red to use 4 % and the rest are using 4. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. I want to point out to him that the Question Period has expired. By leave, if the House so desi res ... MR. SCHREYER: No, I don't choose to ask for leave, Sir. I have a follow-up qu estion; it will wait until tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. On the proposed ... The Opposition Hous e Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker, on a point of procedure.

I gave my honourable friend notice yesterday this is with regard to the procedu res of the House - can the Honour able House Leader advise this House, at this early and late stage in the session, how many more bills we can expect to receive. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. 217

Thursday, December 1, 1977 MR. JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker, I am afraid it is with some trepidation that I have to tell my honourable friend that there is going to be one more bill that will be introduced but if he insists, we will not introduce it. That bill has to do with the supply that is required in order to pay honourable gentlemen. MR. GREEN: Is my honourable friend suggesting that I have a veto power over the question of members' indem nity? Is that acceptable to those fellows over there? MR. JORGENSON : On this particular bill, yes. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honour able Memb er for Pembina, and the amendment moved by the Honour able Leader of the Opposition, the Honour able Member for lnkster. MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker and honourable members, I rise with inflated power.

A moment ago, I felt rather a feeble member of the House in terms of the previous powers that I had but the Honourable House Leader now says that I have the power of suggesting that all members opposite will receive no indemnity for the work that they have done in this part of the session and I therefore indicate to honourable members that they should treat me nicely from now on, at least until the end of the session. I would like first of all, Mr . Speaker, in entering the Throne Speech debate which I have always done, without exception, to deal with the question of the Speaker, and I indicate, Mr .

Speaker, that I am not going to do the traditional thing and convey the usual flattering remarks on your appointment and how nicely I expect you to do the job. May I say, Mr . Speaker, that the job is a difficult one but I, unli ke others, Mr. Speaker, do not expect you to change. I do not expect that as a result of your sitting in that seat that you suddenly become a person who is neutral insofar as his political opinions are concerned.

I do not expect that suddenly the basis upon which your electors decided to name you as their elected representative and the policies that you wish to pur sue in seeking their suppor t will suddenly be forgotten by you and ignored. I do expect, Mr . Speaker, that you will attempt - and it's a difficult job - to deal with the rules of the Hous e in an impartial manner, knowing full well, Mr .

Speaker, that in any event you are not the final adjudicator, that you cannot really offend any political position of the government party, that you cannot really assist or inadvertently give a position to the opposition which will affect the ability of the government to implement their policies because, in the last analysis, it is the House who will decide as to how they should proceed. So I say, Mr . Speaker, that without any fear of difficu lty as to your political position, that you will be able to deal with the rule s of the Hous e and without in any way compromising, Mr .

Speaker, because I don't want you to and I don't think you should, compromise the responsibility that you have to the electors who elected you to office on a particul ar political platform. I expect you, Mr . Speaker, to be the Memb er for Birtle, to be ju st as strong in your opinions as to matters of policy, as you were when you sat on the opposition side of the House and as you indicated to your electors you would be when you sought office. I expect also that you will do what other people have done and in particular I think I should single out the Memb er for Kildonan, the Member for Logan, the Me mber tor St.

Vital, on this side of the House, who tried to cond, t the proceedings of the Hous e and yet knew that they did not have positions of ultimate control. Mr. Speaker, perhaps that's the most important thing. One of the difficult ies of assuming high office is that one lets it go to his head. So rather than congratulating you , Mr . Speaker, I perhaps can give you a word of gratuitous advice. The holding of that office, with the holding of any high office in government, the mos1 dangerous thing is that it changes the person.

I think you must have been a pretty good guy to getthe commendation of your electorate and I think that you should remain the type of person that you were before assuming high office. You, yourself, Mr . Speaker, had experience with persons who, having assumed high office, changed to their detriment and to their ult imate real difficulty and I hope and trust that you will not let that occur with regard to your self. I also, Mr .

Speaker, want to congratulate all of the newly elected members, both on this side of the House, both of whom have participated or will participate in the Throne Speech debate; the move1 and seconder of the Speech from the Throne whom I listed to with great interest and those other neVI members who have been muted to silence by the policy of the government dur ing this session ofthe legislature.

I want to indicate that in all of the policy discussions that we will be engaged in, I want to take a! hard a position and as clear a position as will commend the positions I am taking to the legislature, tc the people of the province of Manitoba, to discredit, if I can, the policies and the opinions that they an going to bring into the Hous e without discrediting them as human beings because I regard all of then as being very decent human beings of integrity but I intend to try to belittle, to bring into les1 credibili ty the policies that they are persuing. I expect, Mr .

Speaker, and I think that honourabh members will agree that I ask no qu arter from them, I expect them to try to discredit in as hard a wa� 218 s e e g d e r w e s o e m s e y

Thursday, December 1, 1977 as they can. and in as effective way as they can, any of the positions that I am pursuing. I would like, Mr. Speaker, lastly to congratulate the Conservative government- and this comes a little difficult. There is nothing that I respect more than political support and I have to concede that the � embers of the government have received 49 percent of the vote of the people of the province of Man!toba, betwe�n 48 and 49 percent, that it is probably the highest political support that has been received at least in recent years for any governing party in the province of Manitoba.

I yvould have hoped, Mr. Speaker, when I said that it shouldn't go to your head, I would have hoped that 1t would have changed some people in their traditional attitudes and in their traditional conduct in the House and particularly I would have hoped that the First Minister, having received that 49 percent, could be gracious enough and could be charitable enough to not be dealing with some of the matters which he has been dealing with in the way he has. However, the First Minister knows better what is good for him than I do. Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, nothing succeeds like success and he will carry on just as he wishes. I want to indicate, Mr. Speaker, that I regard the 49 percent as a very important percentage. I regard this government as having received exceeding approval from the people of the province of Manitoba. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate that the opposition in this province is the strongest opposition that has ever been elected to a Manitoba legislature.

I want to indicate to the honourable member, and that's exactly the conduct that I am talking about, that the opposition now in opposition on this side of the House, received 40 percent of the approval of the people of the province of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. There are governments in Canada who do not have as much support from the people of the province of Manitoba as this opposition has in terms of reflecting opinion in this province. The province of Quebec does not have more support than the opposition members have on this side, the government of Quebec.

The government of which my honourable friend was a member in 1958, in 1962, in 1966, had approximately, Mr. Speaker, the same amount of support as has been conferred upon the opposition, to reflect opposition position in this province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I'm not talking about exactly the same. I'm saying comparable.

And you know, it may come badly to the Member for Lakeside, but I say to the members of this House when they are contemplating on their majority of 48 to 49 percent, that let them know that despite the fact that they are the government and I accept it and that they are our representatives to govern this province, that they cannot expect that suddenly oppositio.n opinion in this province is to be muted and is to be silent and is to be considered of no effect because, Mr.

Speaker, opposition opinion in this province, which I urged the honourable members to consider, represents as much opinion as has been needed to elect many governments in many provinces in Canada. The province of Saskatchewan has a government with approximately the same vote. The province of Ontario has a government with less than the vote. The province of Quebec has a government with approximately the same vote. And so forth and so forth. Need I say it again? The province has been governed by governing parties who have had less support for their position than the opposition party has in this Legislature.

So if the opposition members or the government members are of the opinion that now that they have taken the seats of government, that they are to come in here and proceed as if we didn't exist, which appeared to be, Mr. Speaker, their initial intention, I want to warn them, Mr. Speaker, that we represent 40 percent of the opinions of the people in this province, that we intend to register those opinions as forcefully and as effectively as we can; that we have no intention on rolling over and playing dead; our intention, Mr. Speaker, is to turn that 40 percent into 50 percent.

And if they think that we are coming in here and accommodating the government in such a way as to not see those opinions reflected, then, Mr. Speaker, I want to disabuse them of that position which they had initially, Mr. Speaker. You know, this session was announced as if it will take a couple of days despite the fact we've got five contentious pieces of legislation on the books which we intend to debate, and I intend to speak on every one of them, and I intend to oppose every one of them, and I in�end, Mr.

Speaker, - (Interjection)- I told you that I would vote for that one, but I intend to vote a�a.mst every <;>the� one.of them and I intend, Mr. Speaker, to make that 40 percent 51 percent and this 1s not the first time Im sayin'g it. I have told the people in our party time and time again that in order for this party to feel secure it will have to get 51 percent. And I want to warn the honourable members every time they are discussing an issue as to just what that means; that if there are ten people in a room, Mr.

Speaker, at the p�e�ent time !iye of them could be considered to be government members, four of them support the Official Oppos1t1on, one of them supports the Liberals. In that room, Mr. Speaker, if one person changes, the government changes. And I want to warn honourable members that what they think is the honeymoon depends on that fragile degree of support. In ten people, Mr. Speaker, if one person changes , the government changes. And let them know, Mr. Speaker, that of the five opposition people, one of them in the last election voted Liberal and it is my assessment, Mr.

Speaker, that in the last election the right wing of the Liberal Party collapsed and went to the Conservatives, which is absolutely right - absolutely right and proper, that's where they belong. But the left wing of the Liberal Party, Mr. Speaker, held. As a matter of fact there was a peculiar situation the Attorney-General will recall, we were at the Law School and Mr. Huband and I were classmates, Mr. Speaker, and he spoke and I spoke, and I got up and said to the students: "Students, Mr. Huband and I were classmates. We went through Law School together. When we were in Law School he was a Conservative.

I was not a member of any political party, but let's acknowledge it, I was left of the CCF. What Mr. Hu band is suggesting to you is 219

Thursday, December 1, 1977 that we have criss-crossed; that he has moved largely to the left and I have moved largely to the right." So it's the left wing, Mr . Speaker, of the Liberal Party that did not col lapse. And if, Mr . Speaker, in the next election when we are talking about those ten people . A MEMBER: Another ten years and you will be with us. MR. GREEN: Wel l, Mr . Speaker, there is about as good a chance, there is about as good a chance of me being over there as there is of my honourable friend being with us, about the same. Now you know how much of a chance there is. -(I nterject ion)- That's rig ht.

But the fact, Mr . Speaker, is that ten people in a room, five Tories, four New Democrats, one Liberal, we have to change, Mr . Speaker, one Liberal or one Tory. And, Mr .

Speaker, therefore when the honourable members are talking about their supp ort and are riding high, let them remember how much does it take to change one Tory voter, not Tory, because we all acknowledge that the number of ideological Tories would be 10 percent; the numb er of ideological New Democrats would be 10 percent; that the broad base of people vote on the que stion of a general confidence or a general issue and one of them has to change, one in the ten. The Honour able Leader of the Opposition should think about that - yes, the Honour able First Mi nister should think about that, Mr .

Speaker, when he makes the kind of remark which will come to haunt him and eventual ly he will feel bad about it, he won't smile about it, that the Conservatives cannot be said to be against women; that the Conservatives are the best breeder s in the province of Manitoba. Mr . Speaker, I wonder whether the Min ister of Labour didn' t wince when he made that remark.

I wonder whether the Mi nister of Labour - and by the way I have never been of the attitude that women represent women and men represent men - when there has been suggestions in our party that the women have a certain place and the men have a certain place and a certain number of guaranteed positions - I have been the strongest advocate against those types of propositions. But, Mr. Speaker, I single out the Mi nister of Labour because she is a woman who of her own right came into this House as an individ ual and not as a woman, and I asked her, she won't change, she's a member of the Cabinet.

I can tell you from personal experience, being a member of a Cabinet is a strong inducement not to change your politics. And the Min ister of Labour is a member of the Cabinet. How many people is she going to have to talk to, who voted Tory, and say, "Oh, he was only joking, " because all we need is one, Mr . Speaker, - (I nterjection)- all we need is one. And is that the kind of a joke that's going to retain in that room of ten people, five Conservatives, one Liberal, four New Democrats. Now, Mr .

Speaker, I believe that the honourable members must appreciate that the left wing of the Liberal Party, as the crunch gets harder and harder, does not stay in one place, it becomes for the government or against the government. And ju st as in the last election the right wing that was against the government voted Conservative that they should contemplate -y ou know, Mr. Speaker, I really feel bad, I think I should get paid for the continual advice that I give my honourable friends . A MEMB ER: You are getting paid. MR. GREEN: I have a choice of vetoing it, that's right, I have a cice.

That they should be aware that that's the thin thread upon which their seats in government rely, depend . And that when they come into this Hous e with the suggestion, Mr . Speaker, they came in with the annou ncement that we weren't going more than a couple of days; they came in with an Order Paper; they came in with a Question Period; the only thing they didn't bring in with them, Mr . Speaker, to the opening day of the Legislature is the rolls of paper for the paper fight. That's the only thing they left out. I expected them to be coming in with the carton to say that we are finished. Wel l, Mr .

Speaker, we are not finished, we're ju st be ginning. A MEMBER: Yes. MR. GREEN: And I say to the honourable members that this side, which is here to convey the kind of opposition opinion which has traditionally in the province of Manitoba been sufficient to form a government, is here to reflect that opinion, to pur sue it as hard as we can and to take that one person, whether it comes from the Liberal ranks or the Conservative ranks - I would prefer two, but one will do - and make him an enemy of that government or an opponent of that government which is a much more civil ized word I suppose. And that's, Mr .

Speaker, to be the strategy of this party in this election. I intend, Mr . Speaker, to speak on every bill which we are opposing. Therefore I am letting myself run free rein because I know that my time will expire, but what I leave out on the Throne Speech I'm sure I'll be able to fit in within the rule s and su bject to your approval, Mr. Speaker . A MEMBER: Mr . Speaker, not without your approval. MR. GREEN: I am qu ite certain, Mr . Speaker, that what I will do will meet with your appr oval and I will try to fit in the balance ... A MEMBER: You're forewarned. It's going to circumvent your ... 220

Thursday, December 1, 1977 MR. GREEN: . of the remarks within the provisions of the particular bill that I happen to be speaking to. There's one feature of the opposition strategy which I extremely regret, Mr . Speaker. We are newly elected MLAs and I go back to the day that I was a newly elected MLA, full of whatdid theysay, punch and vinegar, or something like that? -(l nterjection)- What is it? Punch and vinegar is good, that's right. Ju st got the suppor t of the electorate sitting in a new Chamber amongst people that I've read about and heard about and wanting to make my contribution.

We got a contribution from the Me mber for Pem bina. I want to congratulate him for it. · · I want to warn him a little bit in as good natured a way as I can, that other than in a first speech you cannot get away- other than in a first speech, a maiden speech to the Legislatur e -y ou cannot get away with talking about di nosaurs in your constituenc y, mu les in you r constituency and fossils in your constituency without taking a hell of a riding. So if you're going to in the futur e get to the floor know that you will probably not be afforded the same courtesy.

And I heard the Me mber for Wel lington and I enjoyed his remarks particu larly . A MEMBER: St. Matthews. MR. GREEN: ... St. Matthews, and I think that he was very decent and referring to the previous member. I can tell the Me mber for Pembina that his previous predecessor was a great friend of everybody in the Chamber and that he has a ... -(I nterjection)- ... I said the people in the Chamber, yes, who are all on welfare, that's right. And they may be on welfare if I don't exercise my prerogative in a way that satisfies you.

Tell the honourable memb er that he is a man who we would look - we say you are charged with an onerous responsibility to fill issues. Bu t, Mr . Speaker, there are elected members of this House coming into a first session dur ing an eightday Throne Speech debate, whom the government has chosen to say, "You shall not speak." Mr . Speaker, I charge the government and I have heard it and I have heard the Memb er for Lakeside get up and say that the strategy is .. A MEMB ER: It's volu ntarily now. MR. GREEN: Wel l, they volun tarily did what the Board of Directors of the MDC voluntarily did.

The Minister of Ind ustry and Commerce said, "I told the Board of Directors that they won't advance money," and they agreed not to advance money. That was their volu nteer. And the Memb er for Radisson, the Memb er for Spr ingfield , the Memb er for Sou ris-Killarney, the Me mber for -(Int erject ion)- not Virden, no. The Memb er for Virden will speak if he wants to. The Me mber for Arthur and I'm sorry, Mr . Speaker, if I am not remembering all of them. If I do not identify a face with a personality and a seat, Mr . Speaker, I plead not guilt y.

I charge the First Minister with being guil ty of making non-persons out of those ML As. Mr . Speaker, I charge the Conservative administration with making non-persons, of a fine group of gentlemen who have been elected by their constituencies, who have come into a first session of the Legislature and who have not even been able to get up and introduce themselves and make their maiden speech and to tell us something about themselves. That, Mr . Speaker, you know I say that the Conservative position is fragile.

It rests onkeeping five out of ten people in a room, but it's not nearly so fragile as the First Mi nister thinks. It's not so fragile that I can't hear from the Me mber tor St. Boniface, Mr. Kovnats, who I have heard a great deal about and I do not name him, Mr . Speaker, the Me mber for Radisson ... A MEMBER: On a point of order, Mr .... MR. GREEN: St. Boniface - St. Boniface - Radisson, Radisson - the Me mber for Radisson, Mr . Speaker - (I nterject ion) - the Me mber for Springfield, the Member for Arthur, who are making some light of it, and I deserve it. Bu t I plead not guilt y, Mr .

Speaker, if I'm having trouble with the names and the constituencie s, because the government, in their strategy, have chosen to make non persons out of a group of ML As, newly-elected MLAs. Mr . Speaker, there would be no extension of the time. It would not delay proceed ings. The Hous e Leader knows that the Throne Speech is going to last eight days, that part of that time will be used by opposition members, part of that time will be used by government members, but it can't go beyond eight days. -(I nterjection)- Mr . Speaker, you know, the Honour able Memb er for Mor ris, who is a friend, is being unfair.

I don't believe that I'm crying and I don't bel ieve that the members on this side of the Hous e were crying. Bu t, even if we take him facetiously-serious ly, to hi it's more important that we take out our crying towels and cry than that newly-elected ML As, from Conservative constituencies, are made non-persons of, and are silenced even to the extent of presenting themselves and making some opening remarks at the first session of the Legislature to which they were elected. Mr . Speaker, I'm a rough guy. I am a rough guy.

No leader of the New Democratic Party - and I think my colle agues will verify it-w ould ever be able to keep me qu iet at the first session of the Legislature. Nobody. And that's correct. There's no doubt about it, Mr . Speaker. They wou ld not be able to keep me qu iet. A MEMBER: We all know that. 221

Thursday, December 1, 1977 MR. GREEN: The Leader of the Opposition, Mr . Speaker, has indicated that he has a kind of control, and a kind of authority, that can silence all of those people - (I nterject ion) - that's right. Mr .

Speaker, I wonder whether, going back to thoseten people in a room, whether one of them could be a bttfm@i '8a 1t¥�ttJ:atad!Qisg;atEtgerfy1hmthBt1mn�o tJ � tiedanD'Elllpe M1ohaflmil;, sewtemte"'1i e!Jlofitlnt "Well, I've never been a New Democr at, but really they're not nearly as bad as I thought they were, and, by the way, that guy Lyon has got to be beat." A man who would get up and say, in response to a legitimate problem with respect to women, that we are not against women, we are the best breeders in the province of Manitoba, a man who would silence the voices not of the MLAs -w ho has been silenced?

The people of Sp ringfield are being silenced. The people in Radisson are being silenced. The people, Mr . Speaker, in Arthur are being silenced. The people in Souris -Kil larney are being llilmldaabtl'ue:.dl S11Wamne! 8mro 14<ildf QQVeakl'JEMt. t8pe.aAeQ t.fcm\fthe�mtriel'llQtllriegt e1:1Sl£teadert says that there is some way in which we would like to negotiate to make sur e that some of our people will be able to speak, he will find me jus t as accommodating on that qu estion as he has found me on other que stions, and as he expects, Mr .

Speaker - (l nterjection) -o f course, you would n't have to ask me - of cou rse, you wou ldn't - (I nterjection) - of cour se, they would n't - and that's the tragedy of it. The tragedy of it is the notion of some of those people, that I never had, that an MLA is subservient at all times to a party.

I can tell the honourable members that I am a strong party guy, but there's no way that I would not get up and rise and speak when I felt that I, as an individual representative sitting in a chair in the Legislature, free to vote and speak as I want to on every single issue, would be subjected to that kind of control at the first session of the Legislature. Well, Mr . Speaker, the honourable members will have to satisfy themselves in that account. Again, they believe that their strength is so strong that they are virtually able to say anything and expect that that suppor t will continue.

Wel l, I'm willing to bet against it, and I'm will ing to work against it. We did hear some interesting things, Mr . Speaker, we did hear some interesting things. I don't want to take undue advantage of the statement made by the Honour able Member for Pembina, but it does, Mr . Speaker - and I have to even expand it a little bit, so it's not really attacking the member's statement - what has been the entire nature of the Throne Speech? How can we characterize this Throne Speech in a phrase? Well, we know that it had to deal with the Anti-I nflation Board legislation and we agree with that.

I've indicated that there are different things that the government can do, but I do not in any way qui bble with his desire to proceed this way and our obligation to facil itate and help him. What does the rest of the Throne Speech say, Mr . Speaker? It says that we're going to eliminate succession dut ies. It says that we're going to create an incentive for employers to have their employees work overtime - that we're going to make it nicer for overtime to be worked.

We're going to legislate - let there be no misu nderstanding, the minister is not suspend ing legislation - the Attorney-General is legislating, writing into law, an archaic, unworkable comple x law with regard to family law which we happen to have left behind us. He is bringing it back just as if, Mr . Speaker, he brought in a bill composed of a thousand pages, unreadable, unworkable, and inequ itable. That's what he's doing. He's legislating - he's not suspen ding legislation. Legislation, Mr .

Speaker, that says that mineral holders - not farmers - anybody who's farming doesn't have to pay it - mineral holder s who want to specula te on mineral resou rces which they happen to have a title for, and which they are not using for any other pu rpose, will be exempt from paying a tax on their property, such as every other citizen in the province of Man itoba. The Memb er for Fort Rouge said that there is sort of a pictur e to this legislation. The picture is what was told to us by various members at various times.

It is an indication that the future of Manitoba depends on the input of what is known as the so-called business communi ty, the corporate and other business community. The Me mber for Pembina said, Mr . Speaker, when he was referring to small busi nessmen - and I think that small busi ness is fine- I happen to think that a busi ness that invests 10 million and makes 1 thousand is a smaller bu siness than a busi ness that invests 50 ,OOO and makes 10 0 ,OOO. The members will classify the second as a small business. I classify the first as a small busi ness.

When you invest $1 mill ion and make $10 0 thousand, you are a very small business. When you invest $50 thousand and make $50 thousand, you are a very big busi ness. Bu t what he said was, we have to make these peop le satisfied, and I'm paraphrasing, we depend on them. Well, Mr . Speaker, I respect them. I value them. But damned if I will say that the people of this province depend for their futur e social and economic well- being on such a group of people. The Throne Speech was a decl aration of dependence and will go down, Mr .

Speaker, as the 1977 declaration of dependence on the part of the Conservatives for the people of the province of Man itoba. I intend, Mr . Speaker, to work in this province so that we can have a Throne Speech read to the people of Manitoba which will be a declaration of independence on the part of the people of this province, because that's what we're going to be discussing during this session and that's what I'm going to be discussing on each one of these bills. Now, Mr . Speaker, I like to listen in the House.

And what I've found is that what the Conservative government has fallen into al ready is a wi 11 i ng ness to bi ame everything that occurred, every problem that they have, on the previous administration. They started, Mr . Speaker - the words came out when they announced this deficit. What does this deficit amount to? In operations, M. Speaker, the deficit amounts to a maximum of $15 million in spend ing, which was possible possibly controllable, over a budget of $1. 2 billi on.

Because the rest of it is easily explicable - $50 million federal shortfall, $25 million provincial shortfall, negotiated wages - it's $12 milli on. But, Mr . Speaker, do we know 222

Thursday, December 1, 1977 what the declaration by the Finance Mi nister was? It was

an act of desperation. The Member for Mor ris knows what it was. It was the opening of the first envelope. The Me mber tor Mor ris told the best political story that I have ever heard told anywhere. I'm going to repeat it in this House. Two ministers, one going in, one coming out, were exchanging pleasantries. The new one said, "Do you have any advice to offer?" And the old one said, "I will give you three envelopes, sealed. When you get into trouble, open the first envelope. When that stops working, open the second envelope. Bu t don't do it until you get into trou ble, because you're going to need it.

And when that stops working, open the third envelope." And the fel low went in, and for a while he was all right. Then he started to get some qu estions which he couldn't handle, like the Min ister of Mines. He said that some eight environmental aides - he can't hire them - he has no choice . He didn 't say he doesn't want to hire them. I would respect an answer, "I don't want to hire them." He said, "I can't hire them." Mr . Speaker, there are a hundred and fifty ways in which those people can be hired. Bu t what did he say? He blamed it on the tact that we didn't put the money in the budget.

There's no money in the bu dget for Mr . Houston. They hired him. But he took out, Mr. Speaker, the first envelope, and that first envelope has been taken out by nu merous ministers already, within two months - it's a little early, because they're going to need them. The fel low got into trouble after a little while. He got a qu estion he couldn't handle. He opened it up. The advice was, "Bla me me." That's the outgoing minister. So he says, "That's terrific advire," and started to blame the outgoing minister. And it worked .

And he kept this up for a long period of time until it started to wear a little bit thin, and people weren't accepting his "Bl ame me" anymore. They said, "You're in power." So he got another question he cou ldn't handle. He opened up the second envelope. "B lame the federal government." And we're going to hear, Mr . Speaker, in due cour se, and it comes very qu ick - the first envelope was opened immediately, even before they did anything. It said "B lame the federal government." So he started to use it, and it was good av advice. People said, "Yes.

It's not our fault, the fault is the federal government's ." And he got away with it. Bu t after a while it started to . wear thin, and he got a que stion he couldn't handle. He picked it up, and it said, "Prepare three envelopes." Now, Mr . Speaker, the joke comes from my honourable friend, the Leader of the House and in terms of pol itical astuteness and political reality is probably the best pol itical story I ever heard, and, Mr . Speaker, it's appl icable in spades to what we have now heard from the Conservative administration.

Blame me - he doesn't want to hire eight environmental aides, but instead of saying, "I don't want to hire eight environme ntal aides," I'll blame the former minister. The Min ister of Finance has got a problem - but he wants to indicate - and the Mem ber for Lakeside - that there was no money. For eight years we ran virtually a balanced budget, and if we're talking about - as the Min ister of Finance says, "We're going to get the money to reduce taxes from some of the programs that we've been squir relled into, the investments by the past government" - Mr .

Speaker, there isn't one cent in that operational bu dget for any monies to go to the MD C. The MD? C made $4.5 mill ion last There has been no money advanced to the MD C. I'll be one minute, Mr. Speaker. Bu t the fact is that it's now "blame the other side"- the first envelope, operation first envelope is in operation. I ask the members of this House to observe carefull y operation second envelope will be opened very shortly and, Mr . Speaker, I ask the honourable memb ers to contemplate - yes, an overwhelming suppor t for a Conservative administration.

On the other side, an overwhelming suppor t for opposition opinion in this province. The objective, one out of the ten people in the room - I don't care if he's a Liberal or Tory - will change the government of the province of Manitoba and . restore to the people of the province of Manitoba the possibility of a burning, a declaration of independence, equity to the people, equity to all gr oup s and not dependence on one group, the business corporate commun ity. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Chur chill. MR. JAY COWAN: 'Mr. Speaker, and the Honourable Memb er for I nkster. Mr .

Speaker, I am pleased and honoured to be able to extend to you my congratulations on your elevation to the Speaker of this Legislative Assembly. Having not sat in this Hous e before, I want to assure you that I look forward to your able and learned direction when, or maybe I should say if, I should stray from the proper procedure from time to time. I can assure you, Sir, that it will be received in exactly the same manner in which it is given, one, I hope, of mutual trust and admiration tor the task that both of us must perform.

I also have the additional pleasure of congratulating the mover and the seconder of the Throne Speech for their informative and, yes, their entertaining presentations. I can honestly and wholeheartedly say that I empathized with many of the feelings that they must have been feeling as they spoke before this assembl y for the first time. I can only hope that I can make my feelings and my opinions known as ably and as eloquently as both the Honourable Memb er for Pembina and the Honour able Memb er for St. Matthews did a few short days ago.

While mentioning their sincere efforts, I also have to mention or to make note of as the Honou rable Mem ber for I nkster did, to make note of for the record that those two new members probably have accumula ted more space in the Hansard between them than 90 percent of their colle agues. They have probably spoken more in this House than 90 percent of their colleagues, ministers inclu ded , and they did so, I might add , without once resorting to that banal phrase that has become the catchword of the opposition "in due course." -(I nterjection)- The government, excuse me, yes, thank you.

Being new to these proceedings, I woul dn't swear to it, but I would assume that it is somewhat unu sual for government with so much to 223

Thursday, December 1, 1977 do to rely solely on two newly elected backbenchers to do its talking for it.

I would caution those two honourable members, I would caution them, Sir, to relish in their glory while they may for it can't be long before their colleagues, the honourable ministers and members that occupy - and I use that term advised ly - occupy the seats in front of them, it can't be long before they, as in the words of their First Mi nister last spring, it can't be long before they screw up their courage and get on with serving the people of this province in this Hous e where they have been entrusted by their constituents to sit and I might add to speak.

While I have the opportuni ty of putting matters on the record, let the Hansard show very clearly that the only northern Conservative to be elected to the Conse rvative administration has yet to find his voice outside of being dir ectly questioned dur ing the prescribed Ques tion Period. Let it also show that this is not merely the case of a backbencher, like myself, hesitant to speak for the first time before this assembly, but this is a minister with two portfolios no less, and I might add no voice. I, Mr . Speaker, for one, am not anxious to hearthat man speak; I've heard him before.

But ut I would imagine that some of his constituents would find his silence quizzical, wou ld find the silence of his government quizzical, if not outright, perhaps I should say if not outright darning, darning of their abilities and their government's regard or disregard for the pu rpose of this House. Mr . Speaker, I have noted that it is somewhat customary for a new member to speak briefly on his or her constituency in their maiden speech.

I can assur e you that dur ing my tenure here, I will speak often and at great length about the Churchill constituency for there are many stories to tell that come out of that constituency and so if this first effort seems short, please regard it as the first in a long and continuing saga. Mr . Speaker, for the benefit of the new members and for the benefit of the urban members of this House, the Churchill constituency extends from the 53rd to the 60th parallel and covers the breadth of this province at its widest point, well over 600 miles in distance.

In total, it covers neart o4 0 percent of the land mass of this province. I relate this not to you and the members of this House as a part of a travelogue or some tou rist pitch but because I believe it is necessary that the honourable members of this House understand the immensity of the northern constituen cies if they are to understand at all the immensity of the problems that they will find in those constitue ncies. By the way, as did the Honour able Me mber for Pem bina, I too extend an invitation to all the members assembled here to visit the Churchill constituenc y. We too have fairs .

A MEMB ER: Will you give us a ticket? MR. COWAN: . . . give you a ticket ... We too have events and we too have many scenic landscapes along, I might add, with good fishing and good hunting. All that I ask is that while they are there, while they are on that visit, that the honourable members take a few side trips, not fortheirown enjoyment but for the pu rpose of their own edification. I ask that they take time to visit a real fish camp and I say " real fish camp," Mr .

Speaker, not a tou rist fish camp, where the fishing is not for the sport of it all, not for the excitement or the fight but the fishing is a way of life for people who live and who have always lived in the northland. Theirfight is not a brief one with a lake trout or northern pike, but it is continuous and it is a difficult fight to su pport themselves and their families in a dignified and produ ctive manner, in an enviro nment, I might add , that has never produced a Mr. Manitoba Farmer. It is a difficult environment.

I would ask them to take a side trip, I would ask this especially of the members of the government, the new government, to take a side trip to a deserted mine site. There, firsthand, they can witness the regard or better said, Sir, they can witness the disregard thatthe multi nationals have shown dor the land and the people of this province and this cou ntry, not only the north , Sir, but of the comple te and entire cou ntry.

And I would hope that upon seeing the waste that is left behind in their greedy search for ou r- yes, our , yours and mine and the people's of this country - our mineral resources, I would fervently hope that the honourable members of the government would go to their friends and ask them, why? And they can ask themselves: Where are the profits, where are all the great benefits, where are the jobs and where are the lasting effects other than the garbage headframes and the foundations and the open pits that the mult i-nationals leave behind them?

Where are the lasting effects of all their involvement in our economy? I would hope that they would look to the future and ask themselves if they want more of the same. Mr . Speaker, if they cast aside the provisions that the previous government has made for taking on some of the responsibility for the orderly development, the orderly development of our natural resources and in return, ju stifiably so, accepting a proportionate amount of reward for their efforts, if they cast those aside, if they negate those provisions, Mr .

Speaker, then they are in effect perpetuating the rip-off and the rape of our northlands. There will be those, as the honourable members opposite, who undoub ted ly resent my criticism of the multi-nationals. Some may even take them personally as an attack on their friends. Well, Mr. Speaker, I can well under stand their indignation. I can well und erstand it; I am not saying that I can condone it at all. But it is very und erstandable for, ju st as you or I would make our own friends feel at home in our own homes, jus t so the members opposite wish to make their friends feel at home in this province.

And ju st as I would take special care to prepare the guest room, Mr . Speaker, and I would dus t the furnit ure and I would clean the windows and I would make sur e that the guest bed was made up, jus t as I would do that, Mr . Speaker, so wou ld the honourable members of the government make haste to make their friend's bed, But for most, for most, Mr . Spe aker, that is where the accomodations woul d end but I'm afraid not for the members opposite. For them, that is but a beginning for it is then that they would find the atmosphere that they have created for their friends to be so enticing, so 224

Thursday, December 1, 1977 attra.ctive, that after welcom ing their gue sts, after making them feel at home, Mr . Speaker, after making up the guest bed , after all that, they would then proceed to hop into bed with them, their friends. Well, to be perfectly honest, Mr .

Speaker, it would be difficult to determ ine whether the Conservative government first ju mped into bed with their corporate friends or whether it was the corporate friends, the corporate commun ity that first ju mped into bed with the government but it is really an irrelevant point for the result is exactly the same - they are both in bed revellin g together. A MEMB ER: Breed ing. MR. COWAN: Breed ing. As our First Minister said, yes, in bed breed ing together. MR. GREEN: Sounds like fun. MR.

COWAN: Wel l, to the Honour able Me mberf or ln kster, it woul d be fun in certain cases, it would be fun if it was not done to the detriment of the people of this province. Now, Mr . Speaker, I relate this to you not as a cute story or a little ditty for our own amusement, but I give it as an analogy because it is historically correct and quite frankly, I find it upsetting, even frightening. It is frightening because it is true that a person can not serve two masters.

I rregardless of who jumped in with who in that prove rbial bedtime story, there can be little doub t as to who the real masters in that house are. It is Great West Life that rule s the roost; it is 1 INC O that pulls the strings of the new government and, Mr . Speaker, their relationship with Great West Life and with I IN CO and with all the others impl ies a responsibil ity to those corporations. As was said before, a person or a government or a pol itical party cannot serve two masters.

If the members opposite choose to serve their corporate friends, then they in effect are accusi choosing not to serve the people of this province for the corporate commun ity thatthey have aligned themselves with is a small, exclusive, an elite segment of the society as a whole. They are the bosses. They are the owners of capital. They are the corporate elite. Let me tell you, Mr . Speaker, that they do not have the best interests of the workers and their families at heart. The corporate community has its own interests at heart.

It is not interested in workplace safety, it is not interested in workplace health, it is interested in prod uction. It is not interested in progressive and humane labour legislation, it is interested in the workers of this province only as a commodity to be used or abused as the case may be. It is not interested in the equitable sharing of the wealth and the resources of this world, it is interested in lining its own pockets with profit, and, Sir, the interests of the corporate el ite seem to be the interests of the members opposite.

And in all fairness, Sir, I sat patiently in this seat waiting before standing to say what I felt to be right for some time now. I sat in my seat because I wanted to give the new government a chance to prove it wasn't so, and indeed, in a non-partisan way, I did not want itto be so. My own feelings remind me of the story of "shoeless Joe Jackson" and his plight dur ing the 1919- and that was a good year I might add - his plight during the 1919W orld Series. It seems as if Joe .had gotten himself mixed up with a gambling operation and somehow was heavily indebted to them.

Wel l, there had to be a payoff of that debt at some time, Mr . Speaker, and to make a long story short the Syndicate got to Shoeless Joe Jackson, and our hero of the day, realizing his obligation to his benefactors, became a will ing, but to his knowledge, unk nown participant in their scheme to effect the outcome of that year's World Series. You see, it was simply a matter that the syndicate had invested qu ite a bit of their own personal capital on the outcome of that series and they merely wanted to e nsure that they received a fair return on their dol lar.

Wel l, as will happen on occasion, this private bathroom wheeling and deal ing, to use a recent term, was leaked. There, of cour se, was a scandal and our hero was impl icated and as fate would have it, one of Joe's young fans, one of the young baseball fans of the day, ran up to him and accosted him on the street, and for the whole world to hear and see said - no the kid pleaded to Joe - he said, "Joe, say it ain't so, Joe, say it ain't so." And Joe cou ldn't; Joe stonewalled the kid. Mr . Speaker, as I said in a non-partisan way, I wanted it not to be so.

I sincerely, and I mean that, I sincerely wish I cou ld stand before you today and say that my initial fears were unwarranted, that they were untrue, that the members oppos ite cou ld stand across from us, before this House, and in all truthfulness, the members opposite could say, "It ain't so." But unfortunately, Mr . Speaker, I don't believe that to be the case, and it is blatantly obvious that it is not the case.

For any perusal of their activities, any perusal at all to the activities in the tone of this government to date, will indicate jus t how deeply they have intertwined themselves with their friends and how will ing they are to serve their masters. Within hours of the elec tion, the Premier of Manitoba, the Honour able First Mem ber, was assuring the busi ness commun ity of this province that there would be a co-operative spirit between his government and the corporate com mun ity. Now, Mr . Speaker, I don't think he was indicating to them that he was going to encourage them all to become co-operatives. No, Mr .

Speaker, I think that he was as suring them that they had little to worry about from his government, that they, his government, would co-operate with the busi ness commun ity just as Shoeless Joe Jackson must have.assu red his syndicate benefactors that he would co-operate with them. Then, Mr . Speaker, a few short days later on October 21st, the Honour able Mem ber tor St.

James is quoted in the media as saying, "The incoming Progressive Conservative government would move quickly to spur renewed confidenc e in the mining indus try." Now, in all fairness to the member, he made that statement on the evening of the 20th and he didn't have any obvious way of knowing that IN CO Metals had ju st announced that they would be laying off 650 workers in the City ofThompson, and that they would be closing the Birchtree Min e in the City of Thompson in the province of 225

Thursday, December 1, 1977 Manitoba. But whether the honourable member was aware yet of IN CO's gesture - intended I am sure as a symbolic act to ensu re that they did indeed have renewed confidence in this government whether he was aware or not, his words must have rung hollowly in his ears the next morning when he woke up to the news. Bu t notwithstanding the discomfort of the Honour able Memb er for St. James, we must examine why IN CO Metals would embarrass its friends so early in the game. Does my theory have a flaw? Are they seemingly not that close friends after all? I would thi nk not, Mr . Speaker.

IN CO chose to announce their lay-offs at that time because they knew a Conservative government would not take any action to benefit or to protect the interests of the workers of this province over the interests of their friends, their masters, and they were right. The record shows clearly that the Conservative administration did nothing, nothing to positively alter the situation or alleviate the situation that faced the 650 workers in Thompson. All they had to say at that time, Mr . Speaker, was that their hands were tied, that there was nothing they could do.

Wel l, I would suggest if their hands were idle it was because they chose them to be id le, and that they were not tied at all. Indeed , Sir, if their hands were doing nothing it was because they chose to put them in their pockets, to ignore the situation. As a government friendly to the corporate commun ity, they consciously refuse to act, because if they were to do anything of magnitude to alleviate the situation, Mr . Speaker, they would have to stand up to IN CO.

They would have to tell I NC O that they are not going to come into this province and take out our resources, and take out the profits and invest them in Third World cou ntries like Gu atemala, and Third World countries like Indonesia and then close down their operations here. That, Mr .

Speaker, was the choice available to them, and it should not be construed as unu sual or out of the ordinary that they chose the course of action, or should we say they chose the course of non action, that they did, because it was exactly in keeping with their self-imposed relationship with their friends, friends or really their masters. So the new Conservative government chose to do nothing, and Mr . Speaker, it was the people of Thompson, it was the people of this province who suffered, and, Sir, I respectfull y su bmit to you that they are still suffering.

And that in itself would not be so bad if we cou ld receive some assurance from the members opposite that the IN CO fiasco wou ld be the end of it all, that the suffering woul d then be over, but I, Mr . Speaker, for one am somewhat doub tful thatthat assurance will be forthcoming. Ju st a start, indeed , the Honour able Member for Flin Flon says, "Just a start, " and he is correct, because I, Sir, believe the IN CO layoffs to be but the tip of the iceberg.

I am afraid, deathly afraid, Sir, that the people of Manitoba are in for some even harder times, and they are facing those times directly as a result of the attitude of the newly elected Conservative Government, because that government, Sir, has clearly shown that it is going to be the tool of the corporations, that it is going to kowtow to the corporate community at the expense of the working class in this province. Mr . Speaker, I have before me correspondence from the Honou rable Min ister of Mines, Resou rces and En vironmental Management.

It was a replz of the Memb er for Sour is-Kil larney to a request of mine to the First Mi nister in regard to an inquiry into the future for the mining work force in Northern Manitoba, that I sent to him immed iately following the announcement of the IN CO layoffs, and there is one paragraph in it, Sir, there is one paragraph that I would like to read if at all possible. I think that that paragraph, Sir, will be indictative of at least the honourable ministers if not the government's attitude in this matter.

It reads: "The company, " and, Sir, that is referring to IN CO Metals, 'The company operates under international cond itions which have been unfavourable for some considerable time. Yet, they continue to stockpils nickel to the point where their financial stability is threatened." Now that, Mr . Speaker, could be construed, I am sur e, as at least mild ly suppor tive of IN CO, but let us not quib ble about that. I say let us not quib ble, because the letter gets better or gets worse as the case may be, and if we are going to talk today let us talk turkey.

The paragraph continues: "They," and again IN CO Metals, Sir, "They continued to employ people when economic conditions did not warrant it." Now, Sir, that is a bit blatant. Here we have the Mi nister of Mines of this newly elected government, we have the Mi nister of Mi nes apologizing for his government's friends, when he should, in fact, be taking action on behalf of the workers of this province.

But if in his opinion, and I assume that this letter represents his opinion, if in his opinion economic conditions did not warrant the employment of these people then I guess that we cannot expect him or we cannot expect his government to do much to protect job s that they obviously believe to be redundant in the first place, and they will not protect them, Sir.

But the last sentence is even more to the point to that paragraph - "They now," again IN CO, "They now have been forced to take action and in my view any intervention by government would be count er-produc tive with respect to the long-term interest of the workers." Well, Mr . Speaker, if I were a rash person and I assure you I am not a rash person, if I were a rash person I would suggest that the honourable member, with all due respect, was less than honest.

I would find it more believable if that sentence had read, "any intervention would be cou nter prod uctive with respect to the long-term relationship that his government holds with IN CO." Now I cou ldn't say for certain exactly what relationship the honourable minister has in regard to International Ni ckel , but it is obvious from the correspo ndence, Sir, it is obvious that he is at least sympathetic to the financial plight that they are facing - a plight I might add that there is little actual resemblance to the nearly $200 million net earnings that they showed for the latest year of record, that year of 1976 - a plight that enabled them to increase their investment in the In donesian and Gua temalan projects by over $300 million in that same year.

Three hundred million, Mr . Speaker, brought their total investment in those foreign operations to a total of approximately $655 million. 226

Thursday, December 1, 1977 That, Sir, is $655 million of jobs lost to Canada. It is the profits from the lu stful, and it was lustful, extraction of metals from this province and this coun try, metals that rightful ly, as I said before, Mr . Speaker, metals that rightfully belong to all of us. It is that profit that is being used to create jobs in Indonesia and Gu atemala, and that, Sir, is an outright shame from a shameful government. What does the government do when faced with the situation? Well, they sit in their seats and scream across the Hous e, but what do they do besides that? A MEMBER: Nothing.

MR. for INCO. Yes, COWAN: They apologize they do do something. They get up on their hind quarters, Sir, and they apologize for IN CO. But to be fair to the Mi nister most of the members in this Hous e, indeed most everyone, would help their friends out, would speak kindly of our buddi es in their time of need. The only difference, Sir, is that most of us have better taste than to associate with a group of job-thieving International bosses like the IN CO bunc h.

There might be those among this House or among the pu blic that will excuse the government's cowardice and I do say cowardice, to act on the basis that they really cou ld n't do anything about IN CO even if they had half a mind to, that IN CO is too big, that IN CO is too powerful, sort of what IN CO wants, INCO gets mentality. MR. BARROW: Don't forget their contribution to their campaign. MR. COWAN: Can we bring that up, is that under the rule s? We'll bring that up later, I am sure.

But recent experience in regard to what can be done to affect INC O proves otherwise and I am referring to a senior IN CO official's comments shortly after the announcement of the cutbacks, when he pu blicly, and it was reported in the press, Sir, he publ icly stated that the Indonesian and Gu atemalan governments would n't let them get away with cutting back operations in their coun tries. So now, Sir, there are INC O jobs being created in those two countries.

There are INC O jobs being created there I think at the insistence of the governments of those two count ries, and there are IN CO jobs being lost to this province and this cou ntry. Even IN CO officials, senior officials at that, admit that something can be done and they even hint at how we could have gone about it if this government had chosen to, and in the end analysis it is all relatively simply. It is ju st a matter of saying, "No , you're not going to do it, no." But then, Sir, would you or would I or would anybody say no to their masters. I think not. Mr .

Speaker, I have devoted much of my speech to INC O for a numb er of reasons, some of which I woul d like to put into the record so that my constituents in the Churchill constituen cy, which does not include Thompson I might add, will not accuse me of ignoring my own constituency . and its problems.

But, it is my fear, Sir, that lnco's actions are but the first of a long series of setbacks in the mining indus try, for if the government lets, and I imply that the government can do something in this instance, if the government lets lnco expand its foreign operations at the expense of Canadian jobs, and there is no doub t that it is being done at the expense of Canadian jobs, then what is to stop Sherritt-Gordon Mi nes Limited, which is in my constituency, what is to stop them from doing the same in the Philippines, where they already have ope rations under way. Not a darn thing, Mr .

Speaker, not at all and then my constituents will suffer. And, if they do, if they do suffer for that reason then, Sir, I want them to know who to blame. I want them to realize who did n't act while it was still possible to act, for by their actions, or again I should say by the lack of the actions of the government opposite, by their actions this government has set a dangerous precedent. A precedent that the mu lti-nationals and all mu lti-nationals will be sure to take advantage of and it will mean more and more Canadian workers out of jobs.

And, to the First Mi nister I'd like to ask him, if and when he returns to this Chamber, what will happen when the unemployment benefits run out . There will still be no jobs and then, Sir, what will be his suggestion to the workers of this country, welfare? That is the answer, that's the only answer they seem to be able to come up with. And, I also address myself to the s issue, Sir, because I think that what we have seen here, what is happening here, is bigger than the actual circums tances that precipitated it.

We are not simply looking at 650 workers losing their jobs, we are watching a government blu nder its way through its first crisis. This is a test of this government, Mr . Speaker, and, Mr . Speaker, they are failing it miserably, but althougt it is not an optimistic thought, Sir, I believe that they will suffer many more tests such as this in the next few years to come and perhaps they will learn from their mistakes, Mr . Speaker, and I can only hope that perhaps they will do better the next time around.

And, finally, I believe that what is at hand here is the primary issue we will face as long as these two political parties face each other across this Hous e. This is the main bout. The rights of the people of the provi nee versus the interests of the corporate elite. And, in closing I wou Id I ike to relate to you, Mr.

Speaker, a story that one of my constituents told me dur ing the last campaign and it came from a man who had lived in Sherridon as a child and his father was a miner with Sherritt-Gordon Mines Limited in that community, and when Sherrit-Gordon Mi nes Limited decided to close down the Sherridon mine, - this happens all the time in the mining ind ustry, - when they decided to close down that mine and move an entire town across lake and permafrost, when they decided to do that he too made the move with them.

And, he worked for that company most of his life, Sir, and I think that he respects the good that can be found in that country. As well, he, or any of us, should respect the good that can be found in that company because that I can honestly say they aren't all bad. I can honestly say that 227

Thursday, December 1, 1977 there is some good to be found under the right economic system.At any rate I am digressing from the story and it contains an important insight, one I would like to share with the members of this House. I should really say that I know this person respected the good and I also know, Sir, that he despised the bad and that he ded icated his life to fighting to make the system better. And, he did so from a perspective that his father had given to him when he was about to enter the work force for the first time. It was sort of an economic birds and bees story, if you will, Sir.

And, when his father finished the dialogue he ended it as so - "son, he said, don't be fooled by the fancy words and the flowery arguments out there, ju st remember that there is no such thing as free enterprise, son, it's really only private enterprise and it's getting more private every day." Mr . Speaker, I can only hope that I can do something about reversing thattrend. I can only hope that I can aid in some small way in helping it to become more public everyday. MR.

SPEAKER: Before I recognize the Member for Flin Flon I would like to bring to the attention of the honourable members there are 36 students from the Grade II and 12 of the Roseau Valley Collegiate in the galleries to the left and these students are under the direction of Mr . Asher and the school is located in the constituency of the Honour able Memb er for Emerson. On behalf of all members we welcome you here today. The Honour able Memb er for Flin Flon. MR. TOM BARROW: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. With the rest of the members I'd like to congratulate you on your position.

I know you'll have no trou ble with me, Mr . Speaker, cause no one respects the rule s more than I do. I want to congratulate all the new members who are sitting in this House. I'd like to congratulate the new ministers and wish them well. I'd even like to congratul ate the Legislative Assistants. They'll have a lot of work to do too. I'd like to thank the Whip, the Memb er for Gladstone on his co-operation that he gave me in previous sessions and I would like to tel l him that he can expect the same co-operation from me. Mr . Speaker, as you know, I'm a northern member and the ministers, of cour se, play a big

part in the north. The portfolio of the Mi nister of Labour is possibly one of the toughest portfolios in this House and I think, personally, it's going to be a rough row to hoe for the lady who has that portfolio, not because she's a lady, but I would guarantee that she will get the same treatment from us, on this side of the House, that the Mi nister of Social Services gave to our previous Min ister of Labour. The Min ister of No rthern Affairs, he plays a big part. Public Util ities, the Hydro and Education, they all play their role to make life a little better for people of northern Manitoba. Mr .

Speaker, I am very disappointed in some of the projects that were sup posed to go ahead in Flin Flon and, of course, now have been frozen. It took a long time to get these projects started. There were 76 housing units, four units for the elderly and 36 for public housing. We had new provincial building, we even tu rned the sod, Mr . Speaker, a big day for Flin Flon. Of course, that of course, is frozen. What makes this look extra bad, Mr . Speaker, is the fact that the RCMP have threatened to leave the city unless they get better quarters which would have been in that particular building.

Thirdly, the extension to the hospital, Mr . Speaker, the excavation is completed. There's a real need for that. The road from Flin Flon to Bakers Narrows, which we're worked on at great expense to cut ten miles off a very dangerous crooked road, I think that will continue and I'm hoping it will. I'm gratefu l though, Mr . Speaker, that we did have two schools buil t and they're open now and they get past the freezing. All these projects, Mr . Speaker, that provide much needed employment in the north and we have the men, we have the equip ment and I hope that the Min ister concerned will take a good look at it.

Because, Mr . Speaker, if this is transferred to a later date it will be much more expensive, of cou rse. There is no doub t that northern Man itoba was very badly neglected up to 1969. I would request the present government to implement the universal accident and sickness insurance policy coverage. Mr . Speaker, the labour people, not only in Flin Flon but all the labour people in the north, have been many years to try and establish a good place to work, a safe place to work and I would like to continue and just put some of their thoughts on the record.

Today there are many new chemicals introdu ced each year at the work place. First aid requirements badly need upg rading. We need much better trained personnel, Mr . Speaker. We need equi pment of an emergency nature to be placed at the work place to inclu de first aid stations and ambula nce service. Death certificates should not ju st state the cause of death but should also contain the complete report of possible contribution factors and the state of general body health. A worker audit, Mr .

Speaker, that should be maintained on each worker, listing not only who the employee worked for but the area of work environment and a list of chemicals that the worker is in contact with. This is very important in the north, Mr . Speaker. That companies be instructed immediately to institute a training program with worker participation. Programs that are meaningful in reducing, if not eliminating accidents and cleaning up the work environment. This program would be for new empl oyees, present employees and employees who transfer to other jobs.

All emp loyees in the mining indus try to receive a comple te medical check-up yearly and a complete chest x-ray and any other tests that could possibly lead to the early detect ion of a disease in the worker. Workers should be monitored both enironmentally and from accidents. The lun ch rooms, Mr. Speaker, a small thing, but we need better, bigger and cleaner cleaner and air conditioned lu nch rooms to make the work a little more easy for the empl oyees. Workers to be instructed in the use of safety equipment where it is not possible to remove the hazards from the worker.

Government to institute royal commission to study accidents and deaths in indus try in the hope that ways can be 228

Thursday, December 1, 1977 dound to reduce accidents and improve working conditions. Present figures show 15 percent of the work force HBM& S and lnco were off work due to accidents during the last year. This does not take into consider ation the pain and suffering nor the deaths , some ten in number in jus t this past year. The actual amount of accidents dur ing that period of time would be 7.2 as this is a ratio of two accidents tor everyone recognized by the Worers Compe nsation Board. The Min ister of Labour , Mr . Speaker, has a tough job, as I said before.

She'll be going to Thompson, to Flin Flan and these are demands that are going to be made on her at the seminar of course. And, the Min ister of Northern Affairs, Mr . Speaker, now we expect much from him and I don't think we'll get it, Mr . Speaker. At the meeting in Thompson when the layoffs occu rred and I'll quote from a man who was on the mike from the floor.

When he would not answer qu estions concern ing layotfs he said "you are a paid lackey of the company - of I nco." He said, "I don't blame you, I probably would have run and took that position myself for we have no faith in a person who is a comp lete company man." The story tel ls, Mr . Speaker, that he was paid the sum of over $30,000 to run his campaign so we're sur e and it's important to know that we of the north expect very little help from that particular minister. Mr . Speaker, the mover and the seconder of the Throne Speech I think did very very wel l.

I was interested in the member for Pembina, knowing everyone the ex-member, Mr . Henderson. He was well liked by in this House, Mr . Speaker. He never gave long speeches, very short, very qu ick. I will never forget some of the things he has said. Mr . Speaker, when he had something to say, he didn't dress it up, he came out very very down-to-earth. On the matter of welfare, he was very explicit. He said, "It they won't work, let them starve." He said too, when they had the prison riots, "Why not shoot all the prisoners?" These things made it very very interesting in this House, Mr . Speaker.

With those few words, I thank you very much. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: On the motion of the Honour able Leader of the Opposition, the Honour able Member tor Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. It is indeed a pleasure for me to be able to get up now and to offer a few words in respect to the Throne Speech. First of all, as is customary, I wish to congratulate you, Mr . Depu ty Speaker and of cou rse the Speaker who is now entering the Hou se, on your ascension to that august position.

I am going to also, as is customary, thank my staff who in the past have assisted me, espec ially the guid ance and much help I had from the firy clerk, Mr . Prud'Hom me, and of cou rse our present clerk and the assistant clerk of this legislatur e. They were a very decided factor in helping me dur ing my tenure of that office. I should also like to say that there were other people behind the scenes, Mrs. Avery, my secretary, was a wonderful right-hand person to me in all my trials dur ing that period that I had your Chair.

Let me say to you, Sir, that I am not going to offer you advice because I thinkeven if it was gratuitous, you would still have to learn to carry the role on your own. I don't even have three envelopes to offer you , Sir, as the Honour able Me mber for ln kster has said. All that I can say to you, Sir, is that with tenure, with experiece, you will learn to accommodate yourselfand acclimatize your self to that position. The other thing I will say to you, Sir, is that you, when you face the mirror in the morning when you shave, will have to live with whatever you decide in that Chair.

I am certain that you will try your utmost to always be fair and impartial as I did. You will make mistakes like we all do because we are are human and that's only natural but you will be forgiven if you are trying to do the right thing. I should like to congratulate the honourable mem bers who moved and seconded the Throne Speech and also all the other honou rable memb ers who were re-elected and the new ones and welcome them to this Chamber.

We are in this Chamber in one of the unique positions and I think an honoured position of creating laws in a system or an institution which has stood thetest oftime for a long, long time. I mean parliamentary democracy and I think that the decorum and the discipline that we exhibit here is that which is part and parcel of our social environment and is a microcosm of what our province is like and the kind of people we are.

We are a mixture of good and bad; we are a mixture of aggressive and meek; we are a mixture of people of various ethnic origins and very many cultur es and I would say that some of that in microcosm is reflected in this Chamber. Of cou rse I real ize that this session was probably not necessary because there would have been other ways of carrying on what was necessary tor this province but since it has been called, I think we shall have to carry on in the normal fashion.

One of the regrets I have is that the members opposite have not participated in this institution which we call the Legislative Assembly of Man itoba. I do not know why this is taking place; I can guess and, of cou rse -(I nterjection)- Wel l, the honourable member has an opportunity the same as I have and if he would like to say something, I would invite him to. I'll give him the courtesy of sitting down and he can ask me a qu estion. If he's going to bellow from his seat, that is a discou rtesy to this Hous e and he at least who has had enough experience should know that. That appl ies to all the other members.

I do not intend to lecture any of the members but I do think that they should take cognizance of this augus t Chamber that we're in which so many of them never did in the past and probably won't in the futur e. I have been cou rteous and not shouted at them. I hope they will give me the same courtesy in return. Mr . Speaker, I digressed for a moment. I was going to say ... I see we have a few more bellowing people on the other side. 229

Thursday, December 1, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. If the members would like to hold a caucus meeting, I would suggest there are places for it. The Honour able Memb er for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I don't know whether they think they can get under my skin but it doesn't bother me. What I should like to say in respect to this session, Sir, and the Throne Speech is that if there had been some consu ltation I am sur e that we cou ld have agreed to have the AIB legislation done in one day.

We did n't need a Throne Speech debate; we would have been accommodating and in fact I am sur e that if commun ications had taken place, we cou ld have agreed that there wasn't even a sessional indemn ity necessary for that one parparticular piece of legislation. It cou ld have been arranged by commun ications and by negotiations and that one piece of legislation could have been done in very short order because it was agreeable and it was assumed and agreed that there would be no delay in respect to that particular piece of legislation.

The members cou ld have received ju st expenses for coming into the legislatur e from their various constituencies and we could have had a normal regula r session at the spring or even in Februar y, late winter. Bu t that was not the case and on top of that, what was introduced into this particular session was everything that is normal: a number of bills which are contentious , the only thing that was missing was the budget. Now, Mr . Speaker, what is there about these other areas of legislation that we have to discuss and debate?

I can say that in respect to the succession du ties, it affects a very very minute number of people in the province of Man itoba. There have been figur es mooted around here in respect to 3, 4, 2 percent of the population. Wel l, if that is so great and so important, I think nevertheless that it could have waited until a normal spring session.

In respect to the amendment to the mineral acreage tax, the amount of money that is involved and the people that it will serve, again, as my colle ague, the Memb er for lnkster said, was the people who are speculators and the amount is in the neighbourhood of about $300,000.00. It doesn't even come to 1/10 th of a percent in respect to the amount of our total provincial budge t. So where is the hurry to implement that particu lar piece of legislation? The overtime rate has been brought in as well in respect to amendment. Mr .

Speaker, on that particular issue, I have a concern that I cannot figure out what the government has in mind when it wants to bring that in.

At the one hand, it keeps continually saying that we must have restraint, we must cut back and we must stimulate the economy but on the other hand, if they go around and they cut back from the one and three-quarter times for overtime which is a disincentive to have the same people work and which, if implemented, would be to give the emp loyer an opportu nity if he has extra work to hire more people which would be of benefit to our economy since we are into a recession and we do have a certain amount of unemployment.

On the other hand, they keep saying, "No, we're going to create an incentive." Well, I do not see the proposal as satisfying that particu lar need. Now you're going to make it easier for the employer to have overtime and work the same people. I think what we have to do is when there is unemployment, we have to create and spread and transfer the payments to other people. Creating jobs is much more important than having people work overtime and leaving others to have no employment whatsoever. The fourth piece of legislation, Mr .

Speaker, is the one in respect to the Family Maintenance Act and the Marital Property Act. Now, you know, I have listened to all the debates that went on during the previous session and I had imagined that we had pretty wel l exhausted the pros and cons of it. There were some areas where members would never agree upon and I would suggest primarily they were in the areas of whether there was equ ity in a person who is a member to a marital agreement having a fair share of that particular arrangement that they have entered upon. I find that the greatest argument that has come forward so far, Mr .

Speaker, is that the members opposite are not indicating why specifically the Act is wrong, except that they want to have another look at it. Wel l, you know, those kind of delaying tactics are not going to ever create good legislation. I think what really has to happen isthe legislation has to be tried out. It has been passed by a majority of this House at one time, and it should be given a chance in operation, and then corrected or amended after its had a trial. The proof of the pudd ing is in the eating, not in revising the recipe continually and continu ally, and never tasting it. I think that is wrong, Mr .

Speaker, and, for that reason, this particular bill I also oppose as much as I do the others that I mentioned before. Now, you know, one of the things in debate that was mentioned was the succession dutie s tax and the fact - I believe it was mentioned by the Honou rable Min ister of Public Works - that there are farm people to whom this is a very, very important item. They work in conjunction with their parents to create an estate, and they look forward to receiving that estate at the end of their time.

In fact, he said something to the effect - and I'm going to paraphrase him - that they work for less than the minimum wage for ten, fifteen, twenty years, even sometimes a tenth of the minimum wage. And I thought that was kind of ridiculous and I thought that was also very very unfair of a parent who woul d do that to an offspring of his. First of all, Mr . Speaker, if there is no cash, you can always give him or her a share of that asset that you are trying to build up into an estate.

It doesn't take much intelligence to say,"Look, son, I don't have the money now but, whatever it's worth, you're entitled to one-quarter of it now and, as we go along and I'm ready to retire, you'll get more as time goes along for the effort and energy that you are putting into this particular busi ness concern, whether it's a farm or anything else." And in that way at least he doesn't use his children as slave labour for fifteen, twenty years, with a carrot on the end of a stick that this will eventually be you re state, and then have to cry about the fact that there are taxes when that transfer takes place, because if he had been working for someone else, he would have been earning a fair amount of money, and if he'd been frugal and so on, he could probably afford to pay the taxes on the amount of transfer that has taken place.

Let me also assure 230

Thursday, December 1, 1977 you, Mr . Speaker, that it isn't peanuts we're talking about. We're talking about a great amount of money - a qu arter of a million doll ars is the first transfer that takes place, and anyone who earns that kind of windfall certainly can go out and borrow $15 to 20 thousand to pay taxes. And that's what it would amount to. So, Mr . Speaker, I really don't see the pu rpose of the bill in respect to the Gift Tax Act and the Suc cession Du ties Tax Act.

Again, in respect to the Anti-I nflation Act, as I said, I personally had no input into the particular decision when it was made by the previous government, but I can assure you, Mr . Speaker, that, in my opinion, with hindsight although I, in my own mind, at that particular time, voiced the opinion that the anti-inflation process would not work, first of all because I felt it would be unfair and I think hindsight has proven that. We have looked at the situation, Mr . Speaker, and found that it was very good in controlling wages.

It controlled the workers to a very great extent, but I found that it failed to control prices. I have yet to find where prices were rolled back. Oh, yes, we heard

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-1-8
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 1st hansardpdf 8.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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