Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 48 (29th Legislature, 2nd Session)

29-2-48

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, April 22, 1970 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. The Honourable Member for St. George. PETITIONS 1163. MR. BILL URUSKI (St. George): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of The Manitoba Farmers Union, praying for the passing of

an Act to consenting to the merger and the amalgamation of the Manitoba Farmers Union with the National Farmers Union and others. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. CLERK: The petition of Germain Gosselin and others, praying for the passing of·

an Act to incorporate Club de Golf St. Malo. REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK: You Standing Committee on Law Amendments beg leave to present the following as their first report: Your Committee met for organization on Wednesday, April 22, 1970 and appointed Mr. Jenkins as Chairman. Your Committee has agreed that, for the remainder of this Ses sion, the Quorum of this Committee shall consist of Ten (10) members. Your Committee has considered BILLS: (No. 2) -

An Act to bring into force the Qevised Statutes of Manitoba, 1970 (No. 14) -

An Act to amend The Credit Unions Act (No. 26) -

An Act to validate certain By-laws of The City of Brandon and The Rural Municipality of Cornwallis and to enlarge the Boundaries of The City of Brandon.· And has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your Committee has also considered BILL: (No. 22-

An Act to amend The Liquor Control Act. And has agreed to report the same without amendment. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from St. Matthews, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this point I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the Gallery where we have with us 50 students of Grade 11 standing of the Selkirk Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Miller and Mrs. Sharp.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. And 40 students of Grade 11 standing of the Warren Collegiate. These students are under the direc tion of Mrs. Lichtman. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you here this afternoon. REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on .the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for The Pas. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. JEAN ALLARD (Rupertsland): ..• stand, Mr.

Speaker. (Agreed.) MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. INI'RODUCTION OF BILLS MR. PETER FOX (Kildonan) introduced Bill No. 55,

an Act to amend

An Act to in corporate the Investors Group. (Second reading, Friday next.) HON, ED, SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere), in the absence of the Minister of Labour, introduced Bill No. 50,

An Act to amend The Fire Departments Arbitration Act.

1164 April 22, 1970 HON, HOWARD R. P A WLE'¥ (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Selkirk) introduced Bill No. 49, The Postponement of Elections In Metropolitan Winnipeg Act. (Second reading, Friday next. ) MR. PAWLEY intro<tuced Bill No. 56, The Automobile Insurance Act. (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant- Governor) MR. RUSSELL OOERN (Elmwood) introduced Bill No. 45,

An Act to incorporate Seven Oaks G.eneral Hospital ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. WALTER WEIR (Leader of the Opposition) (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, might I enquire of the Minister of Finance as to the amount of increased revenue he anticipates as a result of the increase in Land Titles fees? HON. AL, MACKLING, Q.C. (Attorney-General) (st. James): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ... MR. WEIR: . . • the Attorney-General if he has the information. MR. MACKLING: No, it so happens, Mr. Speaker, that I have the information at hand.

It is anticipated that the revenues of the Land Titles Office will be increased. The exact in crease I can confirm to the members after consultation with my department. I wouldn't want to give anything but an exact figure for some members of this House. I would like to indicate that there has been no change in Land Titles Office fees for eleven years and my advice is that this will bring the relationship between revenues from Land Titles into about the same position as it was eleven years ago. MR. WEIR: On a point of order, I wasn't looking for a statement from the Minister, I asked a simple little question.

What was the amount, Mr. Speaker, of the anticipated increase as a result of the increase in fees. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposi tion wouldn't want exact budgetary figures in advance of the budget. MR. WEIR: Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't see that it's budgetary in any way, shape or form. The fees are a fact of life; they're in the Gazette that I have in front of me. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I ... MR. WEIR: ... answer to my question or don't I? MR. SCHREYER: Yes, in due course, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave of the House to file the report of the Manitoba Insurance Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. BUD SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services and ask him if he can explain to the House the reasons why the Clean Environment Commission has given the Town of Selkirk permission to dump raw sewage into the Red River for the next three years. HON, RENEE, TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Services) (Springfield): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I can't accept the statement made by the honourable member. I do want to take the question as notice and come back with a complete report on the situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for st. Boniface. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (st. Boniface): Monsieur l'orateur, La reception offerte par les membres de la Societe de Saint-Jean Baptiste pour tous les deputes et les chefs de departments aura lieu encore cette annee. La date- le 13 mai, mercredi a sept heures au Junior at des reverends Peres Oblats, angle· des rues Provencher et Desmeurons. Translation: Mr.

Speaker, the reception given by the members of the Saint-Jean Baptiste Society for the deputies and department heads will take place this year again on the 13th of May 7:00P.M. at the Juniorat corner of Provencher and Desmeurons. MR. DESJARDINS: And for the Honourable Member from- what is it, the one that wants translation all the time?- pea soup night at 7:00 o'clock, Wednesday, May 13th at the Juniorat corner of DesMeurons and Provencher street. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. LEONARD H. CLAYDON (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I see the First Minister is out

April 22, 1970 11 65 (MR. CL AYDON cont'd. ) . . . . . of his seat and I have a question for him. MR. SPEAKE R: Is it the intention of the honourable member to put hi s question ? MR. CL AYDON: Yes, I'd like to put a question to the First Minister. The day before yesterda y I asked him a question concerning Nolvert Scott. He said he would answer yester day. Is he prepared to answer today as to whether he is a Ca nadian or not - Ca nadian citizen? MR. SCHRE YER: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, I recall giving an under taking to find out and to advise the honourable member.

I don't recall that I said I would do it the next day, but I will make an effort to have that information for tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIE L GIRARD (E merson): J' aimerais demander a !' honorable membre de Saint- Boniface si les membres vont recevoir une invitation par ecrit a !' invitation qu'il vient d' annoncer. Tr ansl ation: I would like to ask the honourable member from St. Boniface if the members will receive a written invitation to the reception he has just mentioned. MR. DE SJARDINS: Monsieur l'ora teur, !'i nvitation officiEille vient d'e tre posee oralement.

C'es t tout. Transla tion: Mr. Speaker, the invitation has just been made publicly official. That's all. ORDERS OF THE DAY - MOTIONS FOR PAPERS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. GILDAS MOLGA T (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Hon ourable Member for La Verendrye , that 'ail Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the. following for every )Lea since 1962:

(1) What studies have been con.ducted by or on behalf of the Manitoba Government rela tive to tourism in Manitoba.

(2) What was the purpose of each study.

(3) Who conducted each study - that is, whether it was done by departmental staff or by other agencies or consultants.

(4) When these studies were conducted. (5 ) In the case of studies done by other agencies or by consu ltants , the name of such agencies or consultants and the totaL cost.

(6) In the-- case o studies done b.y government staff, which department was responsible. MR. SPEAKE R pre sented the motion and after a voice vote decla red the motion CarJ"ied. GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. SPEAKER: Second Reading , Government Bills. Bill No. 15 . The Honourable the Attorney- General. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Inkster) : Co uld we have this matter stand, Mr. Spe aker, and would you call Bi ll No. 32. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on second read ing on the proposed motion of the Honoura ble Minister of Mines and Natural Resources , Bill No. 32 .

The Ho nourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I adjourned this d� bate because predator control has been one of considerable interest to me as an MLA for an area where preda tors are around us all the time , and we have at many occ asions debated the subject and we've had meetings to try and bring some semblance of o·rder out of the Act. I think the deb ate has been re asonably good and we have been able to resolve a lot of our prob lems.

I think what the Minister is trying to do in this Bill is eliminate some of the formality which we originally had to go through to take issue or to get information regarding certain matters as related to the constituency that I represent , and no doubt is a problem of other areas in the province.

I think the Bill is a good one and I congratulate the Minis.ter that he's going to assume this wide power now , and no doubt the public will be able to have access to his office and discuss these matters from time to time which are of some considerable concern rather than have to go through the channels that we have been exposed to in the past. The only thing that I think we have to be very careful, as I think the Minister spoke in his remarks the other day, that we don't load added powers to a Minist er , and I don't think that I'm alarmed at

1166 April 22, 1970 (MR. McKENZIE coilt'd.) • • . • • the moment with this particular Minister, but another one some day might glve some concern to some of the citizens of Manitoba. So with those few remarks, I think that our bench will support the Blll and we hope that the Minister will be able to fulfUI the duties that he is assuming under this new Blll No. 32 and give us the type of communication and direction that we need in this field. The predator con trol field is one that is under great debate. I only ask the Minister one brief question before I sit dowri..

The control of the coyote as an example, the control of the coyote. Many people tell me that we're destroying the coyote, and by destroying the coyote the skunk is becoming - and how you control that, but no doubt the Minister will have all the answers on this and we'll have less skunks around, or maybe more. BUt I like the legislation and I think with this Minister we'll have some good guidance in the department and we support it. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, there were no real questions asked.

I thank the honour able members for their confidence in permitting this Bill to proceed. The honourable member meutioned something about his constituency being a particular constitiuency for predators. I had it half in my mind when he was saying this to make a rather bad and pointed joke about the political hunting season and how it may be more profitable in the future, but the fact is that the member was so kind to me that I'll just withhold making remarks in that vein. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. INTRODUCTION OF GUEfiTS MR.

SPEAKER: At this point I should like to introduce and extend welcome to a visitor with us sitting in my loge on my left, a former member of this House, Mr. Jack McDowell. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of this House, I welcome you this afternoon. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, it is now the inteution to go into Supply. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q.C. (Minister of Finance) (St. John's): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Labour, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chalr and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, it is customary at this time in taking

part in this debate that members who have a grievance could take advantage of this debate to let it be known to the House what they object to. Now not only, Mr. Speaker, we have had the members of this House abused, but the Member from Lakeside has in fact tried to intimidate the members of this side of the House, the members of the government. I've said before, and I say it again, that personally I can take anything that they can dish out. I think that there's two ways we can go ahead: we can fight the real battles of this House fairly or we can go in the gutter and swing it out. Mr.

Speaker, I had the occasion to watch the television yesterday, the news, and I say that I certainly don't intend to sit in silence in this House while this little phony Member from Lakeside plays at character assassination. McCarthy was only a piker compared to the honourable member. Now it's all right to have a little bit of fun in this House. We expect that, but there should be a line somewhere, we should draw a line somewhere.

I don't think that any of us get paid that much that we should take the abuse or have our character dirtied by some of the accusations that's been coming at us during the last few weeks. -- (Inter jection) -- That's right, I said "us". We've had wild accusations- wild accusations, insinu ations, exaggeration and mlsrepresentatlnn. 'l'his is what we've had, and if you think that I'm exaggerating, let me remind you, Mr. Speaker, of some of the things that were said by the honourable member during this past few weeks. First of all, there was a secretary who had posters advertising a certain candidate.

That wasn't bad, but she was running around with a government car. Of course that was false.

April 22, 1970 1167 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd.) . • . • . It was a cute little trick, it would bring lil the name of Vera and it gave Vera a plug. But what does it do to these people? MR, GREEN: It didn't help her, did it? MR. DESJARDINS: Then there was the question of the province having paid expenses on one of the trips that I've gone to, where in effect it's been the other way around, I have paid to serve the province so far. But I'm not too worried about myself; as I said, I can take care of myself. Then the Minister of Government Services had deceitfully added to his estimates.

Mind you, the honourable member ran out of the House when his o~ Leader offered some explana tion. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): I'm not running out now, Larry. MR. DESJARDINS: That's right. I hope not. MR. ENNS: I'll hang around. MR. DESJARDINS: Then it was a question of Cas&-Beggs. He was being paid quite a salary because he was turning half over to the NDP Party. MR. ENNS: How much was he getting paid? MR. DESJARDINS: That's not the important thing. How much was he turning over to the NDP Party? And yesterday, that was a real doozer!

The Attorney-General was instru- . mental for Shakey' s Pizza Parlour losing its liquor licence. MR. ENNS: Well that's your conclusion, not mine, and I didn't make it inside the House or outside the House. MR. DESJARDINS: That's exactly what the honourable member wanted the people to think; exactly. And he knows it because this has been his style, of getting up and making wild accusations and then running out and thinks he has a big joke. I don't think it's a joke at all. For instance, let's look at this famous episode of Shakey's trouble.

It started before this government took office; it started before the change in makeup of the Liquor Commission or the Liquor Board. Does my honourable friend believe for one second that the Attorney General of the province is responsible for this? Does he feel that we should be subjected to these kind of wild accusations? Is he doing his province any service by doing that? The former First Minister, is he responsible for this, for Shakey's troubles? Of course not! And even the former Minister of Mines and Natural Resources is not responsible.

I might say that the Honourable Member for Morris was contacted, from what I understand, and he did eveything he could to help these people the same as I did, but he felt that it wasn't a ques tion of the matter concerning the government or the Attorney-General. This is why we have a Liquor Board. Now my honourable friend is going on television and he's making a big thing out of this. He's going to ask for an Order for Return, wants to find out who complained. He knows already who complained. One second, or a couple of minutes ago he stated that he didn't thiilk that the Attorney-General was to blame.

Well why bring it in in the first place then? And especially in the way that he did. Does he realize how serious this could be? I thiilk it was Voltaire who used to say: 11Mentez, Mentez, il en restera toujours quelque chose. 11 In other words: 11 Lie,lie, the scar will always remain. 11 Now probably some of my friends from opposite me will say: Well, there's the hatchet man again; he's been asked to do a job.

Well, I can assure you that nobody's asked me to do a job and I can assure you if a hatchet man is somebody that tries to chop somebody down when they pull these unfair tactics, well then I say that I am a hatchet man and I will continue to be because I figure that this is my duty. Life is too darn short to come in here in politics to be subject to these kinds of things. I say to the honourable member, if you can't take it now that you're not in power, if you don't want to be responsible anymore, well you have no place in this House. Maybe you should get a job reporting for Hush Magazine.

They need these kind of people. Mr. Speaker, I thiilk that it's known here that I like a fight too, but a fair fight and I don't thiilk this is fair. I've had occasion, at times I've been asked by people to dig in, to try to find out about some people's personal life and I've always refused to do this. Does my honourable friend thiilk for a minute that the Attorney-General would be so small, so stupid to do a thing like this, to blow the whistle because a lawyer for one company has a token share? Is he saying that no lawyer should hold office here? Is he suggesting that the people are this

1168 April 22, 1970 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd.) • • • • • small? Well then if this is not what he wants, I suggest that he doesn't try to leave that impression with the people of Manitoba. We belong to different parties. This is the way democracy will work the best, that we el!Press our programs, that we're ready to offer other alternatives, but certainly we're not here to destroy each other for no reason at all, especially in cases such as this. There's no reason at all. I named five or six times and the honourable member was wrong on all counts but he doesn't care. He makes a statement and that's it.

There are always some people that'll believe him and he's happy with this. I would challenge him to make some of these statements that he's made outside this House. I think it's about time that the honourable member grew up a bit. He has to realize that when he offered himself as a candidate in this House, he tried to form the government, he has a chance at forming the government, then the same people with out being forced to do so, asked for a mandate; this mandate was refused.

Now isn't there enough issues to mske the capital gain on without having to bring things like this, without suggesting to the people of Manitoba that politics is indeed a dirty business, that everybody that's in there is in there for gain, or is gain, personal glory so important to the honourable member that he has to judge everybody by himself. Mr. Speaker, I say to him that it's time he grows up and it's time that he should know that we can see through him and that he should desist from these tactics that are not something that should be employed by any members of this House. MR.

SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Elmwood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Tbe Loan Act No. 2, 1970. The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I have distributed the proposed

schedule to the Act and I've also distributed a more itemized categorization of breakdown of the allocation of 30, 500,000. In the sheet which I distributed I also indicated that after having culled through existing Capital Authority it was found that in two cases they were no longer required, and for information of the Committee, I propose to bring into the Cabinet an Order-4n-Council to cancel out these two existing Capital authorities. I thought that would be of some interest to members of the Committee.

May I indicate also just in passing that the second line referring to The Pas, Special Area Agreements, the item of $1,936, 300 will be to make possible a borrowing from the Federal Government under the Department of Regional Economic Expansion which will be set up by agreement, and therefore we've set it up separately with separate authorization to keep it quite apart from our other expenditure elements until we have gained . more experience with that particular and new type of federal-provincial agreement. As to the others, Mr.

Chairman, we have the items before the Committee broken down as I've indicated, and of course I'm prepared to answer whatever questions may be asked in connection therewith. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, if I may start the discussion, I'm wondering- there's been some publicity and we've asked the First Minister previously in the House, because of state ments he's made outside the House, about the preparation that was being made supposedly through the measure that we're considering now for the provision of jobs in the event that there is a high unemployment level in the province later this year.

First of all, I'd like an indication which of these projects are considered in that category and which are the normal activities that would be carried on under this Bill which would be considered as the employ ment areas. I think that the breakdown, while it's considerably better than it is in terms of the exhibit, I think that the breakdown for, say, Court Facilities and Correctional Institutions at 3. 5 million is still a wee bit vague. I think Mental Hospital Buildings at 3. 7 million is still a wee bit vague. I think that Other Health Buildings at 6. 8 million is inclined to be a little vague.

I think Government Services Buildings at a little over a million is a wee bit vague and the Highway Construction Program doesn't indicate whether this is intended to be supplementary to what was passed in the current estimates for the Minister of Transportation and what it is there. I'm having a little difficulty as well in recognizing what the difference is between

April 22, 1970 1169 (MR. WEIR cont'd.) • . . . • regional vocational high schools and regional comprehensive hJgh schools. I see that we are wiping out the Authority for $2 million for regional vocational high schools and we are requesting authority for.$3 million, $1 million more, for regional comprehensive hJgh schools and I'm wondering what the difference in definition is between the two types. -- (Interjection) -- Well, it doesn't say "composite", it says "comprehensive". "Comprehensive" is the message that I get. But just for a starter, Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if we could get some explanations alcmg those lines. MR. CHERNIACK: All right, at the invitation of the Member for Rhineland, I'll respond now. Firstly, to indicate to the Leader of the Opposition that it is our proposal1hat this Capital Authority include the full project which may be started this year but not completed this year, and once it is committed by starting, then we felt it advisable to put in the full estimMed requirement so that we know that the moneys will be available for completion in the following · or the year after that.

It may well be, as was indicated by the Honourable the Leader of the Official Opposition, that some of these projects will not be started in the current year or that there will be certain modifications, and he has referred to the fact that the Premier has stated that we would like to be in a position to stimulate ~ or ''pump prime" was the expre.r sion used- the economy if it becomes necessary and we hope that this authority will give us this kind of flexibility.

Therefore, I might indicate to honourable members that it is expected that out of this amount of $30,500,000, somewhere between nine and 13 million dollars would be spent in this current year. The estimated total of course is $30,500,000 and I should inform that there is in addition to that $1,520,000 already authorized Capital Authority available to complete the various jobs and it is proposed that we have the authority to proceed with the work so that when we start it we'll know it'll be completed, if not in this year then in the following year.

The plan is to make it possible to time the commencement of any of these programs on the basis of when it is feasible, when the plans are completed and whether it becomes necessary and advisable to speed up or delay the program in the light of the economic changes that may take place, and certainly we're all aware of the fact that the present economic picture and the supply of money and the cost of money is in a state of flux at the moment.

I can say that inter est rates seem to be inclined to fall- I think they call it a softer market- but as we proceeded during the next year with the impact of the international monetary situation and the efforts being made by the Federal Government of Canada, there will be changes and we wish to be able to adapt to those changes and still be responsible in the way we operate. Now let me jump quickly to the last question which was the difference between regional comprehensive high schools and regional vocational high schools, and I would say that the real difference is right in the title.

The comprehensive high school is not limited to vocational and I believe that certain problems have arisen, as they often do with the wording of an Authority, as to whether or not it is of such a nature that comes within the Authority, and since the trend now is to comprehensive and composite high schools rather than strictly voca tional hJgh schools, it was the advice from the department, and I would guess assisted by the Provincial Auditor's Department, that we eliminate the one wording and replace it with the other which would be more acceptable for the Authority.

As pointed out by the Honourable the Leader of the Official Opposition, we are cancelling two million; we are putting in a request for three million. Now we've indicated that there isn't sufficient descriptive material and I'll see if I can add to it on the court facilities and correctional institutions. I might indicate that these ln- . volve a Magistrates Courts Building which has been in the plan for a large number of years now.

I remember hearing it discussed by the former Attorney.rGeneral- and I'm speaking of the last two preceding ones - as being necessary and advisable, and it is still considered -- well, it is even more necessary and advisable now because I am informed that the lease for the present use of the City Magistrates Court is running out and has to be ~negotiated, and there's also been an intimation that the city may have some need for the space now used, so that that is a substantial item which is involved. The Girls' and Boys' Homes require some addition and improvement.

There is proposed that there be provision for a program centre at Headingley, andof course the committee is aware of the proposed Juvenile Correc tion Centre which is also one that has been in the minds of government for a number of years. Now the Mental Hospital Buildings involve buildings required at Brandon and at Selkirk, and there I might indicate there is a plan that the Adminlstration Building in Brandon has to

1170 April 22, 19.70 (f4R. CHERNIACK cont' d. ) • • • • • be replaced actually and that would be one of those pro grams that would be more of a questionable one, because although the pressure is great, yet we are going to withstand the pressure as long as we can. There are of course renovations and other projects at the Brandon Mental Hospital which are necessary and are planned for. The same remarks apply to the Selkirk Hospital.

The Other Health Buildings involve plans for a physiotherapy unit at Portage, for cottage residences at Portage, which I think are recognized generally as being highly necessary and urgent. There are plans for a Winnipeg Child Psychiatric Centre, and that also is a very important departure from present programming and we do not undertake that that will be carried out immediately but it is certainly in the plans and there is recognition of need if the money is available, if the time is available and if the other factors I've already referred to come into play.

There is also a sum set aside for elderly and infirm persons housing. And finally, there is the hope that we can proceed with the Mental Retardates facility and that that could be done within the foreseeable future. Now the Government Services Buildings also questioned by the Honourable the Leader involve buildings that we plan to proceed with in order to co-ordinate the facilities that are needed to provide government services in the most economical and best planned way. There's a plan for one in the Interlake area, one in Brandon and one in The Pas.

Finally, the Highway Construction Program is of course the usual one which is needed to have provision for forward commitments beyond the 1970-71 fiscal year so that it can be assured that commitments made in the current fiscal year can be paid for in the next fiscal year, and of course the Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition is probably more familiar with the bookkeeping on highway construction than probably anybody else in this committee, but I understand that this has been the type of budgetary item that has been carried forward in the past. MR. WEIR: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to thank the Minister for his answers insofar as they've gone. Starting from the back end, I understand that what is intended here is the provision of adequate capital for the on-going programs, it's not really intended as an expendi ture in the current year. I just go on record as supporting that theory. I haven't changed my mind because I sit on this side of the House, I think that it's necessary to have that availability of capital and I support that theory.

All I'm looking for is an understanding that what we were really looking at originally when we were talking about transportation estimates was the sum of 25 million, or whatever was contained wtthiJI. that vote for capital, and that really this doesn't increase what you are contemplating spending to 32 or whatever the arithmetic is. What the purpose of the vote is is to maintain the availability of capital so that early tender ing practices can be carried out and so on. I agree wholeheartedly with the principle and I have no objection to it at all MR.

CHERNIACK: On that point, the Minister I think has already mentioned that he is hoping that he can even bring forward more and more earlier these commitments for the following year. MR. WEIR: Well of course he and I have differences of opinion as to how far behind we were in the past, and unless honourable friends opposite want to get into that discussion, why I'll avoid it, but generally speaking, there exists a difference of opinion between us I know and I'm prepared to let it lie there unless somebody wants to carry it further.

In terms of the other breakdown - and I appreciate the fact that the Magistrates Court is mentioned, Girls' and Boys' Homes and the Headingley changes- while there's .been a description there's been no breakdown. I recognize that the best we can do is deal in esti mates or round figures and so on , but I would kind of like to know what the breakdown is in general terms for each of those projects, if we may, so that we can sort it out at that point. MR. CHERNIACK: . . • • then I'll respond to these questions.

The Magistrates Courts Building is estimated at $2,125,000, of which 1, 075,000 already has existing Capital Authority, so that the net would be 1, 050,000. The Girls' and Boys' Homes are estimated at $234,500; the Headingley program centre, 500,000; minor projects in the corrections insti tutions generally, 199,800; the Juvenile Correction Centre is some $2 million, of which there is 445, 000 already authorized. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin. MR. WEIR: Mr.

Chairman, might we have the privilege of the same breakdown for other health buildings, and while it's much more minor, a distribution between the Interlake,

April 22, 1970 1171 (MR. WEIR cont'd.) . • • . • Brandon and The Pas in terms of the Government Services Buildings. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, firstly on the Government Services Buildt.ng. I do have amounts set aside for them, but I might indicate that these are not as close an estbnate as we would like to have. I mlght indicate right now that as the honourable member knows - and I'm happy that I'm responding to the Honourable the Leader of the Official Opposition because of his knowledge of the Public Works programm~ - some of these have not yet come to finality.

Just this morning I was told by the ministers involved that some of these estimates are too low, and I sald well, we' n deal wlth that when we come to it, I certainly don't want to provide any more money for that, and I'm sure the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has gone through that kind of an experience. But on the Government Service Building, what is set aside is 50,000 for the Interlake, three-quarters of a million for Brandon, and 275,000 for The Pas. I might indicate that the Management Committee will probably be kind of tough on these aspects because these are estimates.

Now you asked about the mental hospitals. I might indicate that in the Brandon program there is close to two million- $1,955, 500 - and I hope nobody asks me where they·.got the $500 in that amount; and in Selkirk there is $1,780,200 for each of those -- I mean for those institutions. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, might I go one step farther. There's an item here of 6. 8 million for other health buildings that we don't have a distribution on. MR. CHERNIACK: Now these, Mr.

Chairman, do come into that area where we have definite program and where we have estimated program, and I'll start at the largest one- not the largest but the second- well, there are two large items there that we hope to build but we don't undertake to build, and I don't want people to come tomorrow and say when are you start ing, when are you digging the first spot.

The two large ones are the Child Psychiatric Centre which is a $3 million item and which I say is one that we hope to be able to do but are not undertaking to start on immediately; and the other large one is Mental Retardates facility of 2-1/2 million. Now these are the two large ones and in both cases we plan to prQgram it in such a way that it should be done wlthln our means. -- (Interjection) -- Yes, I've 3 million for the Winnipeg Child Psychiatric Centre and 2-1/2 million for Mental Retardates facility, and these are the two big ones.

Now the Portage Physiotherapy tJnit is estimated at 450, 000; the Portage cottage resi..: dences, which I think are amongst the most pressing that we have in this whole list, 350, 000 for two new cottages. The Minister of Labour and the Minister of Government Services are both the most anxious people to get it done. The Winnipeg Community Health Centre, $75,000, and that too is something that wlll await negotiations and discussions wlth the City of Winnipeg; and elderly and infirm persons' .housing, the sum of 500,000 has been allocated for that. That makes up the total. MR. WEIR: Mr.

Chairman, I think this has answered most of the questions in detail that I had, and I should probably at this stage of the game acknowledge the fact that before the last capital supply bill came in there was some private discussion held and it's been referred to on more than one occasion by the Minister of Finance in the House, and that this finds itself separated I think essentially on my recommendation, because there was some concern about getting the other bill passed which was relatively routine.

But what we had here, and we had no detail at that time, was a matter of prl.ncfple which had been announced outside the House by the First Minister, and I have to be a little careful here because I might very well agree to some extent with the procedure that is being taken and yet in terms of timing I.find myself at odds because I think that if we're faced- and I hope we're not - if we're faced with a very heavy unemployment list in the Province of Manitoba later this year that the government can't do it alone, there's no way that public expenditll:res can relieve it all by itself, and it becomes absolutely necessary to have the concern of the entire community established at that time.

It would have suited my purposes much better to have faced the situation in the circwn~ stances that you are attempting to treat, so that the publicity and the concern of the govern ment, and I think I would say for all members of the Legislature, would be focused on the matter for all of the people in the community, and rather than writing a blank cheque now, for the government to move to attempt to alleviate that problem that might have to be faced later in the year. I think that there would have been a great deal of merit in a special session of

1172 April 22, 1970 (MR.

WEm cont'd.) • • • • • the Legislature, if it were necessary, to have provided the financing for the projects that the government hadn't known that they were going to proceed with and that the community's share, the community's share at that time, the concern that I'm sure ·would be evident all the way down the line, and that through the medium of the Legislature we would attempt to get the co-operation of the rest of the community in attempting to provide jobs under that same set of circumstances. - (Interjection) -- Well, my friend the First Minister can say that it's a matter of degree, and I say that it's a very important degree.

It's true that it's a matter of degree, but I think it's a very important matter of degree because I think it would be a set of circumstances that would be shared by the community as such. I think it would be shared not just by the government but by all the members of the Legislature and that there would be a sincere attempt on all sides of the House to try and use this method for the improvement of job opportunities in the Province of Manitoba. And I doubt -- my friends I know have strong confidence in their capabilities as a govern ment. They are entitled to that point of view.

I think I can be excused if I don't quite share it.

You know, I don't share the kind of confidence that they exhibit in terms of it, and I think that under the circumstance we're talking about here that a better procedure would have been for the government to present us with what they intended to proceed with at this stage of the game, and if further measures were required that we'd be called back into Session, called back into Session even on short notice, and an effort be made to appeal to the entire community of Manitoba because of the circumstances that we were facing at the time, to draw attention to it and to seek solutions for the community.

I think that there is enough goodwill exists between all sides of this Legislature to deal with that kind of a situation in a positive, in a positive way, and to hopefully carry the community along with us at the same time that we're doing it. I think that there has been exhibited from this side of the House the same type of responsi blllty with the criticial situation that fishing and the water pollution areas have been receiving.

I wish I could say that there had been the same kind of concern shown from all members on that side of the House, of concern for the tourist industry and concern for the fishermen and others in terms of this thing. I do think it would have been possible and I think that it would have been much better. As a matter of fact, I would be pleased if the government wanted to reduce the size of this by an arbitrary figure. You know, not directing the area that it was, and if it was necessary, to call us back, to use the Legislature as a means of providing the impetus that would be required at that stage of the game.

I'm not going to fight about it, much as I might like to. I think that there would have been a better way of handling it and if my hon ourable friends wanted to change their minds, I'd be most pleased. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, may I just indicate that the previous statement as I read it, and my own opinion as I have it, is that we would not want to manufacture work just to prime the pump but that we should be in a position to speed up the timetabllng of certain programs if it proves advisable to do so.

But I can't quite conceive of our calling a special session of the Legislature to get authority to proceed with one of these large items I mentioned, say 2, :.-1/2, 3 million or even $6 million worth of capital works that we know we waJJt to do and which we believe the committee would approve of, just to call a session that would cost - I don't know what it costs- three to five hundred thousand dollars just to .•. MR. WEIR: Oh come now, for a one day session of the Legislature? MR. CHERNIACK: Well, I suppose -- all right,$ 50,000- $100,000. I understand ..• MR. WEIR: No indemnity at all. MR.

CHERNIACK: I understand now. I didn't want to exaggerate and I see that on the basis of a one day Session that I was exaggerating. I take it back; I didn't want to imply that. But I am saying that all we would be doing is to come back later in order to say we think it is advisable to proceed more quickly with those items which we want to do anyway but not quite as quickly as may prove necessary. That is why the items we've brought to you have two factors to them as I described.

One is the complete project, not half a project at a time, and the other is a forecast of what we would want to do in the next year as well as this year, with the opportunity to adjust our timetabling as we see fit. Certainly if the situation becomes so dramatic as to require a great deal beyond this, or even a dollar beyond this, then of course it would be a matter of calling a special session. But I don't believe, and I voice the same hope that the Leader of the Opposition voiced, that it doesn't come anywhere near that drastic.

But if it appears advisable, if men are being laid off because of some holdback of work in one sector or another, then we would have the ability to just timetable it a little earlier in order to

April 22, 1970 {MR. CHERNIACK cont'd.) • • • • • try to maintain some balance in the work force Qfthe province. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to hog the debate. If I can just ask another question now, I'll try and make room for somebody else in the debate and I might inject my self again later.

But could I enquire of the Minister at what stage of design these various projects are that he's talking aoout, because if you're talking about a $3 million or a 2-l/2 million project, my experience tells me that you're looking at- well, 9 to 12 months probably and maybe in some cases longer than that in terms of design. What is going to be the capacity in terms of that type of a project for the government to make any substantive moves in terms of employment unless it is the employment in the drafting field or the planning stage some place. MR.

CHERNIACK: I might just say that in every case there is a provision for at least. enough money to start on the design work in this year. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, the point that I'm trying to get at is in terms of assisting in the labour force this summer and fall, which is the matter of concern in Manitclba and 1n other places throughout the country, I'm wondering in terms of the larger projects how many of them, if it was necessary, can the planning and design be done in time to use actual phy13~ cal construction in this construction period. MR.

CHER!I.'IACK: I can only say that we're doing our best to get that going so that we . · would be in that position, but the honourable member makes a valid point and I can only s;zy that we're bending our efforts in that direction. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the Minister for the details that .he has given us on the borrowing program and I think that he gave us a fairly comprehensive report. I think it's interesting to note that my honourable friend the Provincial Treasurer is certainly not remiss in borrowing money.

He certainly has no hesitation in that regard because when I look over his record I find that he's been the Provincial Treasurer now for some eight or nine months, and in fact last August he asked this House for the authority to borrow some $310. 8 million; he was back in March, on the 25th of March he asked this House for the authority to borrow $129.9 million; and today he's asking us for the authority to borrow $32.4 million. So in eight months my honourable friend has managed to ask us for $473.1 million, which is not a bad record for a new Treasurer. MR. CHERNIACK: Might I interrupt at this point?

May I tell the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose that I'm asking for the authority, but when it comes to borrowing they have to drag me kicking my heels every step of the way. MR. MOLGAT: I see. Well he certainly has no hesitations, because as I say, in eight months that's not a bad record and he's not a piker at borrowing>this Treasurer of ours. The Minister was kind enough to give us the last time we discussed outstanding or bor rowing, a sheet at that stage of what was still outstanding unused in capital.

I wonder if there's been any sizeable change in that figure - that was as of the 28th of February - whether any major items there have been forwarded to the various projects or not. I see the.Minister is ready to reply, is he? No, all right. Then I would like to know from the Mini*r as well what his latest borrowing was; when did he last borrow; at what rate; when does he anticipate going to the market next; and can he tell us at this time in what amounts. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, it may well be that I'll have the information soon on the up dating of that list of the authorized capital borrowed.

I'm not aware of any substantial amOWits. I think that there have been advances made through the Development Fund, but offhand I can't speak of any more. Now as to the latest borrowing, again unfortunately speaking from memory, latest borrowing was units of account almost concurrent, some $12 million of units of account in Belgium- $12 million U, S. dollars in units of account- and almost concurrent with that was the borrowing of $20 million for the Manitoba Telephone System on the Canadi&Q. market. And the rate, as I recall it, was just fractionally over nine percent and I may well receive that information soon.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, I've been following the discussl011 this afternoon with interest and tried to get as much of it down as possible so that I woul!in't have to ask a question unnecessarily. I have several questions though. First of all, how much of the proposed allocations that we're making this afternoon will not have to be borrowed

1174 April 22, 1970 (MR. FROESE cant' d.) • • • • • from outside but will come from reserves or trust accounts that are presently sitting somewheres in the various government accounts that there might be. Then, how much will the total amount be if the government would complete the programs that are included in the sheet? He mentioned for Instance the mental retardate building, in the City of Winnipeg I take it, $2-1/2 million. Would that be the total amount that would be spent on that particular building or would there be additional amoUDts required at some future date?

I have another ODe, the other one is the child psychiatric building as well. MR. CHERNIACK: Well in both cases, as I've indicated, it is not planned that these will be proeeeded with this year unless, as I've indicated, there seems to some sort of emergency situation. These are just the two examples of what we hope to be able to do within the foreseeable future.

The amoUDts are the full amounts estimated in all cases and we feel that- and I think the Leader of the Opposition has indicated that it's advisable- once you com mit yourself to a building, then get the authority for the full amount so that you can -- well that's the answer. Now as to how much of that we would have to go to the public market on, I would want at this stage to say only as little as possible. There are other funds available, as the honourable member knows, and we would want to use in-House funds of course before we would go to the capital market.

Now may I indicate to the Honourable Members for Rhineland and for ste. Rose that I don't want to answer directly the question that they asked, and that is when will we be goi~ to the market again. I expect to be in a positiontoreporton that in the very near future and it would be better if we waited for that until I was in a position to make a better report on that. But I do undertake that the House and the Committee will be aware of that fairly soon. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, some further questions. A year ago when the Honour able Mr.

Evans was Treasurer, I requested of him that he check "\\1th the Bank of Canada and whether we could not make our borrowings through our own Canadian machinery that is set up for this purpose. He advised also at that time too that the Bank of Canada had a portfolio for provinces, and I think municipalities as well, but as far as he knew there was nothing in it. I wonder whether the present Minister would find out whether monies could be secured that way, because after all, if we borrow from the Bank of Canada the interest that would be accru ing would be benefitting the people of this country.

I think we should check into this and find out whether this could not be done, because in the end it would certainly mean savings. If the province is proposing to build quite a big centre for the mental retardates in the City of Winnipeg, what about providing some relief for those at country points? We have a .munber of smaller centres that are building workshops - I know Winkler is building one - and they could use some capital, some support in the way of capital for their project, and I'm sure Altona is considering the same thing. What is going to be the policy?

Are we just going to - support the greater areas in Manitoba, the larger cities, and leave the outside points on their own? I don't think that this is quite falr because these outside centres, the smaller centres, the people have been very active supporting these groups that are doing this work voluntarily and I think we should support them provincially as well so that they would not have to com pletely rely on volunteer work and on the help of volunteer citizens. I had a few further questions. The fish hatcheries mentioned here- 350,000.

It's not one of the bigger items but where is this hatchery being - where wlll it be built? MR. McKENZIE: Roblin Constituency. MR. FROESE: Pardon? Roblin? I'd be interested in knowing where, and if this is just going to one particular project or whether this means more than one project.

We know that as far as highways are concerned that you can bulld a stretch of highway and stop and yet the road will contimle and the people can use that part, but not so with buildings, and I'm glad to hear from the Minister that the figures that were given are the full consideration, or the full amoUDt that wlli be considered for these various projects.

The matter raised by the Leader of the Official Opposition, if things should go from bad to worse that the government would be speeding up some of the programs and putting more money into the economy this way by incre~'ilng the .munber of projects or the amount that would be spent in this fiscal year if necessary. I hope that the Treasury Department gives reports to members of this House, let's say quarterly, or occasionally, so that we know where things stand so that we won't have to walt a full year and come back and find out.

I think we should be kept up to date on this so that when the government is speeding up or is increaaing

April 22, 1970 1175 (MR. FROESE cont'd.) .••.• the programs that we know what is being done and w)Jere , things stand. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a few remarks with regard to the Capital Authority required for general purposes the Minister has before us, and I well recogniZe the statement that the First Minister has made outside of the House, the fact that they are anticipating a recessional period.

I humbly submit to the First Minister and to the Finance Minister that we are facing a recessional period in my constituency and one that is of grave concern. I well recognize the moneys that the Finance Minister has borrowed in his eight months in office, and I have it to the tune of some $475 million according to my figures. MR. CHERNIACK: Borrowed? . MR. McKENZIE: Well,authority to borrow. Well, one way or the other.

I wonder if the Minister recognizes the agricultural problem that we face in my constituency and many of the rural constituencies, and if in fact he could fill me in some place in this Authority that's being granted as to what he has in mind to even improve the conditions in Roblin cOnstituency or those agriculturally based constituents who are facing serious problems today economi cally. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, I believe that I am aware of the agricultural problem that exists today.

Frankly, I don't quite see how the Capital works, the capital plans of this government or of any government can do a great deal to alleviate directly and immediately the agricultural situation. In the last Bill that I presented to the House there was money set aside for the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. There are other pro grams of government that involve expenditure of moneys in the agricultural areas, but I can't say that - just by building a building somewhere, that doesn't necessarily help the agri cultural area in that particular building.

Now the point made as to quarterly reports by the Honourable Member for Rhineland, I can only say that having been in this job nine months one would expect and have a right to think that I am an expert in the field of finance, but I quickly tell you that I am a slow learner and I am really not that adept at understanding all the ramifications of that area which I know the Honourable Member for Rhineland has shown a great deal of interest. I' 11 look at the sug .. -c gestion and try to see the implications and see if it's possible, without making any promise, because I'm not aware of it enough.

However, the other questions he asked as to the Bank of Canada doing our borrowing, I wish we could persuade them to do it; or even to lend us money, I wish we could persuade them to do it. They seem to be busy lending money in other directions. Well, I have dis cussed at meetings with federal representatives the facilities that could be made available to us, and all they say is that by building up the surplus that they have, they are going to be using that for capital purposes like Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and that in that way they are helping us by not going into the borrowing market.

Now I suppose we have to recognize that if they were in more deeply than they are now lt would be tougher for us, but that, I'm afraid, is the only kind of assistance we have been offered from the federal authority. As to the Mental Retardates building, I don't quite follow the honourable member's dis cussion about that. Currently of course there are some 1,400 - no, I don't want to give a wrong figure.! think there are some 1, 200 beds now at Portage which is some distance from Winnipeg, and what it was felt is necessary and advisable is to build a facility to serve the Metropolitan area.

The only facility I know of now for mental retardates that is provincially operated is at Portage, and it is planned that there be one in Metropolitan Wmnlpeg to service the half a mlllion people that live here. MR. FROESE: If I may interject here. When you talk of this expenditure, are you just speaking in terms of providing residence facilities where these people can stay? It does not include workshops or anything of that typeJdoes it? MR. CHERNIACK: No, I think that the plan is more comprehensive than that.

Of course beds alone do not help the retardates who would be there, but there would have to be substantial facilities that would be able to provide a proper service and proper care of the inmates. It wouldn't be just beds, it would be a service which I hope we can do. I think that we can recognize that the problem of mental retardates and mental health generally is Qne where we are still on our own to a large extent. The Federal Government has not accepted it as part of its program and it is one in which the whole world is very slow in dealiDg with it

1176 April 22, 1970 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd.) • • • • • and we want to try, as I know all of us do, to do much more than we have been doing in this area. The honourable member also asked about the Fish Ha.tcbery. The plan, which I believe is still subject to cbaDge, is to have it in the Grand Rapids area, but I'm wider the impression that that is now considered to be the best location for the Fish Hatchery. As a matter of fact, I said it's subject to cha.Dge; I think that that is actually where it is being planned. Alld :nay I now say to the Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose that I have to apologize for my poor. memory- slightly only- because I mentioned $20 million Telephone as a recent borrowing. It was for Hydro, not for Telephone. Other than that, my memory served me fairly well. Twenty million dollars for Manitoba Hydro was borrowed Aprll1, 1970 and $12 million units of accamt in the European market was borrowed as of March 16, 1970, and both are nine percent bonds. I'm also informed that the only major changes in use of Capital Authority was some $6 million in March to the Manitoba Development Fund. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. CLAYDON: Mr.

C~rman, I'd like to ask the Minister a few questions concerning the Winnipeg Auditorium. Is this amount of $2, 500, 000 the total cost of the building plus reiKr vations plus furnishings? Is this the total cost, and if so, how many square feet of office space will be produced in the building and could he tell us what departments would occupy the building. In the past, when we have had in the Norquay Building overflow crowds, we have moved to the Concert Hall in the Auditorium.

Will the Concert Hall portion also be included and converted into office space, and if this Concert Hall is converted, what provision will be made to house large gatherings when they appear before the provincial government on various matters? I think these are questions which are very pertiBellt at this time because I feel that the matter of furnishings has not been included and I'd like that particularly answered. MR. CHERNIACK: Would the honourable member refer to drapes and furniture under 1he term "furnishings"? MR.

CLAYDON: Furnishings - I'm not exactly sure because we haven't been told exactly what you're going to get with the building. The government has not informed us as to whether it includes any furniture or not and I'd like to know whether this $2.5 million includes any~ ditional expenditure for furnishings or does it include the furnishings that are already in exist ence? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I'm afraid we're talking, using a term which I would guess that the Honourable Member for Wolseley and I are not clear on and I still don't quite understand what he means by furnishings.

If he means that an office will be built in which there will be a table and chairs and a typewriter and that kind of furniture, then I would think that this is not included in this item. What this item does include is the estimate of the capital cost of acquisition of the Auditorium and the estimated cost of renovation to suit the purposes of government.

Certainly the indication is that the possession of the building wlll not be given to us until the following year and it would be foolish, although the honourable member thinks this is the opportune time to indicate the exact use, I would disagree with him because I feel that being given fully a year to develop the proper use of that building it would be wrong to com mit ourselves now on what particular use we could put to it.

I could indicate to the honourable member that the present use of buildings, or the buildings that are presently used in this general area are bursting at the seams, that there's a good deal of rental space being used for government purposes and that there is need for more and better c<rordinated use of office facilities. Now I think that those who have been concerning themselves with the use of the auditorium would like to retain the Concert Hall as it is now, but there need not be any commitment for that.

Certalnly when the Auditorium was purchased from the City of Wlnnlpeg- and I have no idea how the honourable member stood in that position when he acted in his capacity as an alderman, although I am informed he was opposed to it- he is shaking his head, so my inform ation may not be correct.

I will go back to saying I don't know what position he took on it but I don't think that's too relevant, because as I understand it, the purchase of the Auditorium from the City of Wlnnlpeg was without any undertaking or restraint on the use to which the building would be put other than that the present occupants and the present commitments by the City of Winnipeg would be honoured for the term that has yet to expire. But I would invite the honourable member and other members to make suggestions to the

AprU 22, 1970 1177 · (MR. CHERNIACK~nt'd.) • . • • • Minister of Government Services as to the uses to which that buUdiDg can be put, or various portions of the building. There are certain cmes that may be obvious, and I know that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is probably often very nervous as to how long she wUl be able to occupy the office that she occupies because we_ are cramped within this buUding and it may well be- and now I'm speculat~- that the Queen's Printer, the Provincial Archives, could be properly and usefully moved over to the Auditorium.

There are certain other departmental uses that are in this building, or indeed In the Norquay BuildiDg, that could be moved into the Auditorium. But I don't think that we are prepared to commit ourselves now to the eventual, actual use of the building other than to indicate that we are assured that there is ample need, and we are also given the estimate, which has been checked both within government departments and I believe also with at least two outside architectural firms, that the amount of $2-1/2 mUlion should be sufficient to take care both of the capital purchase and the renovations that would be needed.

Now when I say that, I think that I have to admit that the Honourable Member for Wolseley and I may not be that sure of what it costs to do a renovation on an existing building and I would not fault anyone if he were somewhat out in his estimate, but we can only come to you with the information we are given and we are giving it to you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley. MR.

CLAYDON: The Minister has indicated that we wlU not have possession of this building until next year, and if this is the case, is it necessary to include the $1.5 million in the estimates at the present time for renovation of a buUding which you wiU not have posses sion of? MR.

CHERNIACK: In the first place, I am informed by the Minister for Government Services that he expects that some parts of the building will become available much sooner than next year, but In the second place, I've already indicated- and it seem to me that there's a general consensus In Committee that it's a good idea - that when we undertake a project we should seek authority for the full project rather than just for the amount that will be spent in the current year and then we know what we are expect~ to spend on the whole project.

That's the reason for the inclusion of the renovation costs for the Winnipeg Auditorium,· whether it be spent this year in part or in whole and whether or not there is a carryover into the foJ.lowf.Dg year. MR. CLAYDON: Mr. Chairman, I may have missed it, btit did the Minister teU us llow many square feet of usable office space this building is expected to produce? · MR. CHERNIACK: The Minister is under the impression that it's somewhere around 126,000, but again I think it depends on what use wUl be put to the building and the extent to which it wlU be changed into office space. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, we're to assume then that the $2-1/2 mUllan can be~ pected to look after the complete cost of purchase and renovations? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, while you wish to answer that, speaking of the Auditorium, there seems to be some speculation as to who originally bought this building. I'm not sure but perhaps the Minister can tell us. Was it in fact the Province ·arulthe City of Winnipeg or in fact perhaps the Federal Government also? MR.

CHERNIACK: You're now talking about the year 1932 or thereabouts? Well, I recall that in 1932 or thereabouts, I think it was Mayor Webb who took credit for- am I right about that? MR. CLAYDON~ WeU, somewhere around that time. I used to put a shovel in the excavation about that time. MR. CHERNIACK: Somewhere around that time. It was an unemployment relief situa tion that was taken advantage of at that time and I'm sure that there was both federal and provincial input.

I'm also sure tlJI. t it belongs to the City of Winnipeg. _ The Minister of Government Services informs me that all the information he's been able to gather is that the $2-1/2 mUlion should be sufficient to purchase and renovate thew~ building. He also informs me that there appears to be sufficient structural strength in the building to support additional storeys. He has not included that in his estimates and he may have some trouble with Finance if he wants to do that. - MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland.

I. i i 1178 April 22, 1970. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, comi.Dg to the second item, The Pas Special Area Agree ment. Are we referring to the Churchlll Forest Industries Agreement or is this a special agreement with The Pas, the town itself where this money is being provided for, and what is the purpose of it? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, we have announced that the Department of Regional Economic Expansion of the Federal Government has accepted The Pas as a region for special consideration and that this is part of the hoped-for economic development in The Pas area.

This does not have anythi.Dg to do, as I can recall, and I'm sure the Minister of Mines and Resou'rces wlll correct me If I'm wrong, this has nothing to do with provincial commitments to Churchill Forest Industries but is rather for the development within The Pas itself. And again - now this is an impression I have - that practically all of it is for a school He adds the word ''housing". I'm pretty sure it's mainly for schools, but it is for the provision of services to the residents of The Pas, it is not any of the commitments made in connection with the C F1 complex. MR. FROESE: . • . a breakdown of it? MR.

CHERNIACK: We have an agreement.. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, there is a special area program which was announced some time ago which involves infrastructure, sewer and water, schools, housing, something totalling about four and a half million dollars, which the province has succeeded in negotia ting with the Federal Government for a special area The Pas program. If my honourable friend wants the exact figures, the agreement has not yet been signed and when it is of course it will be a matter of public knowledge as most of the terms are at the present time, but I can't give you a breakdown of the figures right now.

MR. CHERNIACK: I should indicate that this is a borrowing from the Federal Govern ment; this is a loan by the Federal Government, it doesn't involve outside money at all. MR. CHAIRMAN: ... ready to proceed. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. MOLGAT: I thank the Minister for his reply regarding the last borrowings. He said it was at a rate of nine percent. Did he get full price for his bonds or were they sold at some discount? MR. CHERNIACK: Well, that's why I said fractionally over nine percent. It was, as I recall it, one was at par and the other was at, I think, 25 cents off par.

I did report on it, and I'll be reporting on it again. If I ever get to the budget speech I'll try and give you more information. MR. MOLGAT: Well, I've been waiting anxiously for the budget speech, Mr. Chairman. He can't fault me for that one. I haven't asked him today but- unless he's willing to make a statement now as to when he'll make the budget speech .• ? MR.

CHERNIACK: I've already indicated to the honourable member that I'm torn be tween two emotional problems; one is that I'm anxious to have it brought in as quickly as possible, and the other is that I'm so much afraid that as soon as I bring it in and the Honour able Member for Ste. Rose responds that he will leave us and I just don't want to see him go. MR. MOLGAT: I thank him for his keen attachment to me, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister is in a position to tell us now, although he may not be and I'll be pleased to get the answer later, how much we presently owe in US dollars.

He mentioned that one of the loans he reffered to was US: how much of our present debt is repayable in US dollars? MR. CHERNIACK: It's on my desk, but I don't have- I wouldn't try to guess at it. I will certainly supply the honourable member with that information, if not earlier, then during my budget address. MR. CHAIRMAN: Requirements for General Purposes, $30,500,000- passed. Requirements for The Pas Special Area Al;reement, $1,936,300-- passed. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, we've now flnlshed Capital Supply.

May I indicate to the House and to the House Leader if he's within hearing, that I would propose that we should move out of Supply at about 5:15 so that could then go through the routine of taking this resolution to Ways and Means and concurrence. So that if we could go on with the current estimates and then at 5: 15 if we could have the committee rise.

AprU 22, 1970. MR . CHAffiMAN: We're dealing with the departmental estimates, the Department of Tourism and Recreation, Resolution 92. The llononrable Me.rnber lo Roblin. 1179 MR . McKEN ZIE: Well, I'm wondering if the Minister is going to answer under the items that were asked. under his salary ? HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Tourism & Rec reation) (Dauphin) : Sorry, Mr. Chairman, I didn't hear the question . . McKENZIE: I'm wondering, Mr. Chairman, is the Mini.ster.. going to -answ.e_r the questions that were _raised under his salary ? MR. BURTNIAK: The reason I waited , Mr.

Chairman, I thought that last night, -before we adjourned, the Honourable Meniber for Rhineland was ready to speak and ... WeH, Mr. Chairman, before I attempt to answer the que stions that were raised last night, no doubt there will be other questions that will be raised this afternoon, I would like to add a few more comments· . First of all, I would like to thank the honourable members for their kind rema�ks to me last night. r certairuy appreciate it. I would like to say that we're living in a time of great social change, Mr.

Chairman, and one of these change11 which wUl have tremendous J.mpli cations for the people of this province is the onset of leisure age. In our debates at this and at previous sessions we had been rightly concerned with the provision of jobs. In the not too dis tant future we're going to be more concerned with th� provision of things for people to do when they are not working. The great challenge of the futu re is _-not going to be only jobs, but leisure.

I want to assure this House that as long as I'm the Minister of Tourism and Recreation that we are going to prepare for this challenge and have programs in operatio!Lbefore :we have to deal with the situation on a crisiS l>asis. :Ad hoc solutions in today 's crises are merely aspirin tablets. They tackle the symptoms of ihe._problem rather than the problem itself, and Ldon't intend to be a dispenser of pills. We will anticipate the problems, analyze them, and gut them into programs that will really prevent the problems from getting to the crisis stage.

Thel'e can be no -doub �hat we are into the early stages of leisu.r e:: age. Already many people earn their living by catering to the leisure demands of others. Many bus!ness firms..: are in the business of pro'lliding goods and servJces for leisure. In.. No_tlh America the lelsure .Jndustry ia-alr.eady a one hundred billion dollar phenomenon. M resp_onsibilities are for Tourism and Recreation. Tourism, as I see it, is conc�ed with bringing people into Manitoba for pleasure. In this way , I'm concerned with the develop ment of a major export industry.

Every dollar spent in the pro.vince by a non-resident visitor is just-as important as that ea-rned by any commodi ty that we produce and sell ou tside the province. Last year non-residents spent $120 million, as I s_aid before. This money was spent in a wide variety of places, such as hotels, motels, camp. grounds, restaurants, service stations, grocery stores and so on.

After this initial spend ing by the visitor the money was re spent in wages, salaries, and goods and services, such as the eggs the tourists consumed at breakfast were produced by the Manitoba farmers; the bread at lunch was made from Manitoba wheat, milled into flour in the province, nd baked in a local bakery. We estimate that each dollar spent changes hands aUeast once again, so that the cum.ula tive effect of tourist dollars is nearly a qu arter of a billion dol lars.

I also want to assure the members of this Hous e that we on.. this side are very much aware of the impact of tourtst spending on provincial rev.enues. While it would be ver-y difficult to set up a special set of accounts to re.cord the flow of tourist dollars into the provincial coffers, economists tell me.-that-14.. cents out of every dollar spent -accrues... to the ::prov:ince. On last year's spend ing, the �rovince was rieher by 110me $17 Ulio.n.

When you consider the estimates of my department you will have to agree that Tourlsm and Recrt!!!1!on are a _profitable business for the government. 1·-should 1 ike to point out that the United States Travel Service-in 197 0 ls starting its -Iirst ,promotion campaign in Canada to attract Canadi ans-to visit the United States as tourists. This mo'lle-by the United States is another example of increasing competition -that is developing in the tourist industry. As more and more count:des become aware of the value of tourist spend: ing to their economies, the competition will continue to crease.

Manitoba cannot slack in its efforts to create a desir able tourist environment and to inform potential visitor-s of our attractions. In order to receive the fulleat possible benefit from our tourist potential, we will have tQ extend ou effo.rts in.. tourist deyelopment and promotion.

1180 April 22, 197 0. (MR. BURTNIAK cont'

d) Tourism ia a leading induatry in this province now. It bas the potent tal to be one of the real growth sectors of our economy, and I can safely predict that within a few yean it may well be the leading export dollar earner for this province. How we are going to achieve this objective is a good question, and I can say that we can do this by providing imaginative leader ship to the development of recreational facilities and opportunltles within the pTOvince.

If we make Manitoba an at tmctive place for Manitobans to spend their leisure time in, and we then inform our potenttsl customers in the rest of Canada, the United States as well as over seas countries, of the province that bas met the cballenge of the leisure age, tourism will grow and achieve the objective that I have mentioned. My basic objective, Mr. Chairman, is the refold two-fold. In the first place, we mus develop programs and facilities that will encourage alLManitobans to enjoy their leisure. We mll8t provide opportunities for a wide variety of activities.

By so doing we will develop a social environment that is extremely attractive. In this way we arrive at a second objective: the full development of the tourist potential. When we have provided the opportunities for Manitobans , we will have developed a series of attractions that will make Manitoba a very desirable place-to visit and to spend time and money. \\'bat are some of the dimensions of the leisure age that can be predicted now, and how do we propose going about developing the necessary program?

If we can look ahead a few years, we can see that there are a number of trends in society which, taken cumulatively, will create the challenge -of leisure. How we face this challenge may well determine the fate of our civilization. Here 1u-e some of the things we face in the immedtste future. In the first place, hours of work per year will decrease to an average of some 30 per week in the next perhaps tw.o decades. This decrease will come as the result of increased productivity, the joint product of technology and education.

The de.crease in work time wil reflect itself in fewer hours work. per week, fewer weeks l)er year and fewer years per life time. ThllB the worker of the future will find that he ha:s more leisure time each week, longe vacations possibly split into two separate periods each year, and a longer retirement period. Industry will have an increased role to play in the provision of recreation for its employees. Government should stimulate indllBtry in tak.ing care of recreational needs of employees and they should be prepared to advise and assist indll8try in the establ ishment of programs.

As a result discll8sions should be entered into with Federal Government on the subject of tax deductions for recreation facilities built for employees. One of the areas that 1 see as needing increased attention is that of personal recreation. My main theme in this area will be the development of programs that are enjoyable. .People should have fun in their recreational activities. Really, what I'm proposing is that we stress the real meaning of recreation, and activity indulged in ·voluntarily for the satisfaction derived from the activity Itself.

In other words, we must learn again to enjoy ourselves and have fun. These recreational programs will be based on mass participation rather than on individ ual achievement. Basically, an indiv idual does not have to be good at something in order to enjoy it. Many of the programs that have been developed in the past have tended to by-pass the lower income groups who presently cannot afford to participate. If a park or recreational facility is developed where the low income groups cannot afford to get -to, the area has littl e meaning to them .

I want to take a close look at this area of leisure and make sure that all people of the province have the opportunity to enjoy the facilities and the programs developed by the publlc. For the past several years the Federal Government, thr ough its Fitness and Amateur Sports Program, has made grants to the province to assist in the development of recreation programs. The Provinctsl Government has in turn made grants available to the municipalities to assist in the hiring of recreational directors and in the development of such programs.

I have now been advised that the Fede ral Government is terminating this program. As 11. result, we will have to examine the provincial role in grants for recreation, and we may have to con sider changing the grant program that we have. If the grant program is changed, the Provincial Government will employ additional experts in the field of recreation who will be available to municipalities to advise on planning and developing programs and facilities in leadership train ing.

We will recommend the removal of the present one mill for recreation purposes as set out in the Municipal Act, through the grant program that we now have. The objection of

April 22, 197 0. 1181 (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) . . establishing local recreation commissions throughout the province has been met. A reappraisal of the provincial role in bringing well-rounded recreation pro grams to the people now seems to be in order. We have recognized the importance of using schools for recreational purposes by the community outside of school hours. This recognition is not a philosophic view as it once was; it is now a fact . Present legislation permits the use of schools where the local community so desires.

In several communities, the recreation commissions are working in close co operation with the school divisions and are in fact programming the evening use of schools. More use could be made of the school facilities that are available and it is our intention to en courage and fa cilitate such use. Serious consideration is also being given the growing commun ities of the north. The people of the north have the right to �ct the same standards in their parks, in recreation services, as do the people in other parts of the province.

To assist me in developing the type of progra \11 that is needed as we move into leisure age, I would like to say that we want to establish an Advisory Fitness and Recreation Board, which will be consulted in developing programs for mass participation. The board will consist of a wide variety of expertise and will be able to advise on the health aspects of recreation as well as the social. We will be looking at the development of a provincial games program, perhaps an ethnic games program.

The purpose of these games will be two-fol d: to encourage mass participation in a wide variety of activities for fun and health, and at the same time to help develop fa cilities in all parts of the province. As a grand final e to each series of games, there will be a provincial sports pageant which will be held at different places in the province. Again, the objective is to get mass participation in a wide range of activities and to develop a first-class recreation plant throughout the province. While I may have seemed to stress sports in this presentation, I am very much aware that fun is not essentially sport.

It covers all aspects of recreation. We must also be aware that poor use of leisure time can show itself in the use of drugs and other undesirable activities. A positive recreation program, based on the widest possible participation, can help provide alternates to fo rms of anti- social behaviour. Another area of concern is the adequacy of recreation programs for young people. Again, this is one area that has rated a lot of lip service but littl e has been accompliahtid. I intend to start from the beginning and take a good look at the place recreation can play in the lives of our young people.

It may well be that high priority will have to be given to this aspect of our re creation program. We do not have al the answers the problems of leisure age. We will be deyelop_ing.a policy, and out of this policy .::will come the answers. e -.basic app� _.the problem is, as we build for Manitobans, we build an atmosphere.. that is ideal for: tourisJP as well. In the last two fiscal years the estimates of.. the Department of Tourism and .Recreation have amounted to less than 5 pex._c_ent..of the ..provincial budget we are to achieve the solutions to the eom!!Jg.Q leisu� h hare of th budget w· have to grow.

If the way: in ..which we live• over the...n ext, - say undred years o_r SQ.._is to �termin�Y. oqr understanding of the leisure. phenomenon and b;y. the way in._which we .develop prog.rams to ..ens�e tha. best use..of leisure, theiLour in�tm eu.t in this area will have to incr�e. iL will have to increase-rapidly. As I have already pointed oul, tlie taxes paid b tourists more than cover the costs of our pr.esent progr ams.

To achieve thes.e_goal s Qf ..&. better place fo Manttobans..to live ..in and the development o a. tourist industry: to our most �rtant source oL export ..dollal:a, imagi nation and ha d work must be backed by the public and by this .House.. as well. Now, Mr. Cbai rman, p.itl,'_haps.J'v:e opened the door for further �tio nlgg but to deal briefly with some of the questions l;®t ere asked in the House last night aDd the .comments wer-e made by the various members that spoke, I would like to deal, first of all , with the question tba:t was asked by the.

Jirst s�tea.k.�tr lasi.Jljgh , the Honourable Member for Birtle Russell, in regard to his concern about the International Peace Gardens and the activities there by the Canadian Legion. would like to report to the honourable member �t the federal grants to the Canadian Legion have been discontinued by the Manitoba Canadian Legion, but the Manitoba Canadian Legion will continue to offer its program at the International Peace Gardens. Youth P.rograms will be operated by the Canad� Legion from Augusj 9th to 30th, mcluding such sport u footb all, co-ed volleyball, boys' track and iield and gir ls' track and fie ld.

The International Music Camps, another creative art.. program, are operated in July. The Gardens are part of the provincial-tourist plant; some 350, 00 visitors attended last y•r. Many of these were young �s. s ools of young p8f)ple attending in-training �rams.. I

118 2 April 22, 197 0. (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) . might say that we do offer a grant to Inte.rnatiollal Peace Gardens to the tune of $15, 000 annually. Mil. CHAIRKAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Bussell): Was I cor�ct ln .hearing the Mlnlster say that theylre only going to give the International Peace Gardens $15 , 000 this year? MR. BURTNIAK: That has been the grant that's proposed for International Peace Gardens for this year. I do understand that, through some other organization or organl.zatlons, there are other grants coming as well.

I belleve the Honourable Mlnlster of Cultural Affairs will bave something to add to that during his estimates. I believe there are some other moneys coming from other organization to this group. MR . GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister prepared to make any grant to the Canadlan Legion seeing as how the Federal Government-has abandoned their grant structure ? MR . BURTNIAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, I must say that this is something that perhaps we'll have to oonsider for the future years, but I don't think we are in a position to do so this year. MR. GORDON W. BE-ARD (Churchill) . Mr.

Chairman, while the Minister is answering questions, quite frankly I didn't catch what he was saying but it appeared to me that -- is it a federal policy of withdrawing funds almost entirely from recreation and entertainment, re creation areas, in their grants to the province? I understand that the Minister has now announced three areas where the Federal Government has withdrawn their moneys. Are they giving it to you in some other form, or what is happening? MR. BURTNIAK: I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the Honourable Member for Churchlll is referring to the Sports and Physical Fitness Program.

I will have something to say on that a little later on. If I can find it in my notes here, I could give you the answer. Sorry, 1 can't find it. If I come to it, I'll . . . MR . BEARD: If the Minister would just take It as a question and . . . MR. BURTNIAK: All right. In regard to some of the other questions that were asked, particularly that tnvolved the funds with respect to the World Hockey Tournament which did not develop here in Winnipeg and Manitoba this year. I believe there were three different honourable members that touched on that particular subject.

I might say that there Is an Order for Return on that particular subject which I will bring in tomorrow, but I would say that the future of Canada's participation in World and Olympic Hockey Is in the hands of the governing body, as you know, which Is the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association, the Federal Government in Hockey Canada. The CAHA wlll have to negotiate with the International Ice Hockey Federation, and r understand that Mr. Earl Dawson and his colleagues are presently studying the matter.

Lb elieve that the Honourable Member for Asstniboia, tn one of his questions, I think he didn't quite get the trend of my tal . Perhaps he wasn't quite sul'e as to -what l was referr ing to but he said there were 21 I"ecreation commissions ana that Is not too many. I'm sorry that you didn't hear right because there are 22 municipal1tles who are hiring full-time recrea tion directors, and I•m pleased, as ![ said last night, that there 'ire13 municipel recreation oommisslons, not 21.

I might say that the majority of these have been established tn the last two or three years and many are just beginning to become functional in their respective communities. Regarding the federal withdrawal from the assiStance - and I'm sorry the Member for Chur chill is not in. The answer to that question is that we have requested information from Mr. Munro regarding the Fitness and Amateur Sport policy but have not yet received a reply. We find that recreation commissions are becoming more active and are taking advantage of the many resources available to the sports and recreation organizations.

The Community Recreation Branch is an effective link between the communities and the organizations, but the Branch, I must say, wlll contlnue consultative services and leadership training opportuni ties to these communities. Insofar as grants similar to Ontario and Alberta , I believe the Honourable Member for Fort Garry brought this question up tnsofar as sports clinics and what have you are concerned, similar to Ontario and Alberta . We have grants or we are providing grants up to $500. 00 to the provincial sports and recreational associations to offer community clinics and pro motional activities.

The Community Recreation Branch has excellent cooperation from provincial sports bodies, the Manitoba Sports Federation, the universities, the YMCA. and the individual

April 22, 1970. 11 83 (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) . sports leaders in conducting clinics and other leaders hip train- ing events. I'm sure you all know that our branch is working closely with the Manitoba Sports F-ederation and tue Centennial Sports 1970 Committee. There will be over ao mational championships held_in Manitoba this year, 19 10. These a e being conducted by the 'tlpo-rts . ..coverning bodies with assistance from the Centennial eo rporatlon and the Sports Fede ration as well. In May and June, I might-say, the Centennial Sports Caravan will be visittng-30 commun- ities.

This project, sponsored by the Centennial Corporation, has been.. o.rganlzed by our branch-and the Manitoba Sports F:ederation. There were some questions asked in regard to the tourist study at Dauphin, and I might say that the study at Dauphin had two purposes : to provide information on the tourist industry and to test the methods that could be used in similar studies in the future. The results of the study pertained to Dauphin only and there was no intention generalizing beyond that town. It is part of a program to examine and identify the value of specific tourist attractions around the province.

The Department has also carried out studies of the following parks and re creation areas: Whiteshell, Grand Beach, st. Malo, Norquay Beach, st. Ambroise, Duck Mountain and Grass River. These stud ies are a part of the Canadian Outdoor Recr eation Demand study but they also enable us to determine the impact the parks have on the tourist industry as well. The question as to whether we need research into the economic value of tourism. The department is studying the economic impact of tourism in cooperation with the Feder al Govern "ment and other nine provincial governments.

A major tourist study of travel in Canada by Canadians was planned for this year, 1970. Unfortunately, two large province s withdrew their support. The study is now being revised and as a result has been delayed. One of the results of this study will be a much better under standing of the economic value of tourism. In addition, we cooperated with many public and private tourist agencies through the Canadian Tourist Association in sponsoring the study entitled "The Economic Significance of Travel in Canada.

" Insofar as the needs of the north are concerned, I might say that serious consideration is going to have to be given to the growing communities of the north. The people of the north have the right to expect, as I said a moment ago , the same standards in their parks and re creation services as do people in other parts of the province. One questio was asked by two members, the Honourable-Member for Assiniboia and the ..Member or Portage la Prairie, insofar aS" support to ethnic._ festivals is concerned.

As I 'Outl m remarks ..last night, ther-e is a proposed gntnts program to support ethnic festivals and other local festival attractions that could be 4»nsidered provincial in scope and do attract many thousands of visito"rs.

I plan to announce the details of the grants program some time in the ear future. insofar as the publicizing of J:nstorical churches and other historical attractions, a number of our department brochures and publications carry lnfo:rmation :on _our..hiatorical sites and points of: interest and the ::de pa.rtment agrees that these-are of major importance _u far as v.1s1tor attractions are concerned. The Honourable Member fol' Portage la P-rairie...asked about die Great River Road .A:ssociat.ion.

I'm pleased to lnform...the honourable member that � have ...been a:m. ember .of the Great River Road Association for many years and have attended a oonferenoe, nd aa .a matter of fact, this year, 19 70, we will be hosting the annual ...conventioa of this A�sociation in WIJmipeg from August 9th to 12th, and I might say --(lnterjection)--I beg-your pardon? Qh, I'm sure there-must have.. been. Someone from our department was there, I know. Well. I"ll clieck. MR. lE-ARD ilo:w bout the-€-hurchlll Road Association'i' MR. BURTNIAK: here is a grant that's being s.upplied o_r..given to the..o qan,.lzatJon.

I believe it's somewhere in the -neighbourhood of $2, 000. no annually.. Tlle Honourable Member fo Birtle-Russel was concerned --about the garbage and waste d1spj;lsal, d t. things in that respect should be ·.mprov:ed. I might say. that careful supervisio.n...J.&. give.D to .Jl!e cleanliness and:: housekeeping ..of parks and r.e.creatio.nal s.ites. Waste mat§!ial.e... are collected as frequently as r� uired and disP.osal is ma.de.. tlu:ough re�QJ.z� and appro ethod s. e have found from experience tbat�ood housekeeping generates public respect for the facJlitiea_provtded and educes the litter l)roblem.

Bea.ch.es are continuously patrolled o hazardous materials.

11 84 April 22, 1970. (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) . soft driaks. Beach concessions in parka are not permitted to sell bottled The Paint Lake problem. if we can call it a problem - perhaps 1t is - which was asked. This question was also asked by both the Honourable Member for AutnJbola and the Honour able lolember for Portage in regard to the Paint Lake situation. I might say that formal dealgDatlon that Paint Lak•and three smaller sites alo11g the Grass River are provincial _re or•tlooal areas, is currenUy under way.

During last summer, a detailed survey of the re cratlooal potential was made by Parks Branch planners to dete rmine the boundaries and to draw up development plans for these sites. It is on the basis of these plans that the formal designation is based on which fu ture dev�opment will follow. While no development will be done this year, detailed site surveys necessary to prognmmlng and estimating costs will deflnltely � undertaken.

In regard to the installation of the T-bar at the Falcon Lake ski slopes , I would say that to improve this facil ity has been given careful study in the past and it has been determined that the economic-benefits would be marginal. Falcon sKI slopes a_re limited in length and run, and slope heights can best serve the beginner and novice skier, judging from the attend ance records. For this group, rope tows are safe and easy to use. Because skiing is largely a weekend activity, large scale investment required for a T-bar is somewhat diff icult to justify at this time.

In regard to camping in Birds Hill Provincial Park, the statement was made that the camping ares at Birds Hill could accomodate something like 10, 000 trailers. In actual fact the campln!r area has �80 sites suitable for t.ents , camper trucks and trailer use. Last year 6, 309 families used these facil ities, of which almost 40 percent were out of the province visitors . There is adeq_uate space, utilities and services to expand the camping area should the demand warrant. Willi respect to Dllck.

Mountain Provincial Park, we recognize the potential that exists in the J)uck Mountam area, and because it is largely untouched at this -point in time, it off ers an excellent opportunity to create an outstanding park. We have begun planning studies aimed at drawing up the recreational master p1an. This work will continue again this year. I might say at this time, too, Mr.

Chairman, that-this does not only apply to the Duck Mountains, as I pointed out last night -and perhaps on some other occasions, but we are now undertaking this year to do some se rious research work so we can come out with an entire complete master plan-for the Province of Manitoba.

This is sadly lacking and I'm sure that the honourable members will agree with me that this should have been done perhaps a loog time ago. !Daofar as signs aloog the highway locating boat launching sites - this is a suggestion that will be discussed with the Departmen of- Transportation. oHBe rove a biologist In -the Department of Mines and Natunl Resources and our Park Planner liave examined the impUcatlons of the camp ground being built near by. A report is to be-filed on their findings shortly. In the interim, the licence required for the camp site has been deferred until June lst.

The Hecla Island Provincial Park program and budgets during the life of the FRE D agree ment, was asked. Two projects are programmed for Hecla lsland this fis.cal year. 1. The-CatiBeway construction, and 2. The lnltialpark development. At this time the phasing of the Causeway construction and associated costs are being :refined by �ttudies currently under way through-the Department of Transportation. I ca:n run off some figures for you. The current year's budget for Hecla is $855, 000 covering the fol lowing items.

Causeway - $5Qj), 000; Causeway road approaches - $100, 000; Road construction on the Island - $90, 000� Initial constructton of camping area, beach installation of utilities - $140, 000; and building relocation and renovations $25 , 000. The FRE D allocation for recreation i.n,_the Interlake is 2. 96 billion to be disbursed over a period 1969 to 197 7. A question was asked in regard to the Win.nipeg Beach recreational area. It will be largely completed this spring.

The re maining work to be done this year includes the final grading and trimming of park lot and access road, final landscaping, shrubbery and tree planting, equipping beach facilities buildings for operation. We expect that an official opening will take place during the latter part of July. I believe the question was asked as to what-the cost might be.

The grand total for the fo ur-year period from 19 67 -to 19 71 for this project was $925, 566.00, The Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie also asked the questio.n, is there to be a park in the forebay of the Portage Diversion -works, as had been previously announced ?

April 22, 197 0. 118 5 (MR. BURTNIAK cont1d). The area on the forebay of the Portage Diversion was studied during the midsummer of 1967. owtng to the lack of data on water elevation and water quality, both of which are important fa ctors in park design, lt was decided in NOYember of 1967 to defer further park planni:lig untn tnformatlon on these matters becomes available. One other question which was raised was with respect to-the request that had._ been made to have a-sports car rally at Birds Hlll Provincial PaFk some time this summer.

I under stand the Honourable Member fo r Portage la Praine expressed-some doubt as to the wisdom of holding a cal' rally in the park because of possible incompatible effects . I appl'eo-iate his concern and can advise that we are giving the_propoe&l a very careful review. That, Mr. Cluiirman, is to the best of my knowledge the questions that were asked last night. Perhaps there will be some more to come: MR. CHAIRMAN: The House Leader of the Li beral Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Did the Minister give the dollar value of the grants to the ethnic festiva ls ? I didn't get it if he:-did. MR.

BURTNIAK: This is now in the process of being work� out and I'll announce that in a few days' time. MR . CHAIRMAN: l'he Honourable Member fo r Blrtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: I would like to thank the Minister for the informat ion that the Order for Return is now ready. He said he would file it tomorrow. Seeing as how it deals quite pointedly with the affairs of this department, I don't believe there's anything in our rules which stipulates that -It has to wait. An Order for Return can be fil ed at any time and I was wondering if the Minister would care to fil e it now. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 'I'he Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FRO ESE: Mr. Chair man, first of all I would like to congratulate the Minister on assuming his duties in the portfol io of Tourism and Recreation. I certainly wish him well, also all his fellow workers within tne department. I'm sure that they have a job before them, especially in this year, the Centennial year for Manitoba, and I do hope that we do get many .more people to visit Manitoba.

At least I've already on certain os:casions, where we've had gatherings outside of this province, o invite people to Manitoba and to -eo me to Manitoba in the year of 1970 when we have all the -Celebrations. The Minister mentioned theil' advertising program yesterday. Lw onder if he Could spell it out probably a little more in detail as to how much is spent on advertising in, let's say, in Western Canada, how much ln Eastern Canada, bow much in the United States, and whether we have any way of knowing how effect:tve our advertising is in the various regions.

I would just like to mention that as fa as southern Manitoba is, that we are really in need of a good park and _recreational facUlties. We have._ the lake at Morden which is a man-made lake, but I'm sure that the government is not contributing anytb.lng_.to this in tbe _ypkeep and maintenance, as far as I know, and I think the government shoulclconsider doing more for southern Manitoba.

The Member for Churchlll feel s- that something could be done in the north and I do hope that-the people in the far north also receive attention, but it seems that we have the far north an<Lthe far south that is more or less left-out, because our people hav:e to travel at least, what is it, about 150 miles anyway to a reaortof some Jd.nd, of government-sponsored. feel in this connectio that I should mention the Pembtna Dam. It's been very very slow in_ coming, if anything is -eomffig, and-:f:.-feel that the Department of Tourism.and � Department of Mines should get together ana work on this.

I feel that this would be a gr•t attraction for people from across the line to come to southern Manitoba if this aam came about and that we had these fiCUltles for the people, because we know when the study was made that a large-amount of the cost, I think, was calculated toward recreation, that it would be a great attraction and this would certainly offset a lot oL the expenditure that would be made. And the amount needed isn't that large. Surely I think we should try and give more push to this venture and get something done. MR. BURTNIAK: Would the honourable member permit a question ?

You stated that the amounts would not be that large. I--was just wondel'ing if yolf have taken a survey or someone bas taken a survey to find out just what the amount might be. MR. FRO ESE: I think the figures that were quoted at that-time, it's a proposal for two dams, one in the United States and one in Canada, iiiiathe amaiiDltbatwas statedatthatUJDewas in the neighborhood of $32 million for the two. I don't know whether these figu res still would bold true, but I think between tbe two departments and the -government and the Federal

1186 April 22, 197 0. (MR. FROESE cont'd) ... Governm ent -- and I feel that they should participate because they 're participating in other programs. We have the FRED program here, park developm ent - $925, 000. I understand that a large amount of that is going to be spent on Hecla Island develop ment, and why couldn't we bring this matter under this program lf it can't be brought about in another way.

Sure enough, we should put more behind this and I'm.. sure that our people - we have a special association in the southern part of Manitoba that is trying to push thls very matter, and I do hope that the Minister wlll take a look at this from the Department of Tourism and Recr eation, and look into this matter that we develop that as a part of the tourist industry and that we attract more tourists into Manitoba by providing such a development.

No doubt when the Mines and Natural Resources Department wUl be discussed, this matter wUl be dis cussed more fully because it probably belongs more directly to that depar tment, but I think re creation is involved to such an extent that we should not forge t lt in the Departmen t of Tourism and Rec reation. I note from the Department of Industry and Commerce that they provide for hospitality for $7 5, 000. There's nothing in the Departm ent of Tourism for special hospitality.

How much is spent in this way to provide hospitality for the tourists that come to Manitoba? 1f this is such a big paying proposition or paying department, when tourists come in maybe we should provide a li ttle more hospitality than we ue doing and have some special grants for that p\Jrpose. We just had the Hudson's Bay Route Association have their annual convention in Wln.nipeg fo:- the past few days. One of their projects is an annual excursion to Churchill . I think maybe there's more than one in a year - two is what the Member for Churchill indicates.

What are we doing toward assisting this group in their work ? I feel this is a worthwhile work, and I feel that more of our people of southern Manitoba should visi t northern Manitoba and see for themselves just what we have in northern Manitoba. I think they'd be more appreciative of any expenditures that would be- made and any impr ovements that would be made or could be made, lf they -knew more about it. I think more of our people should travel north so that they would learn for them selves.

We, as members, have sited northern Manitoba a few times and I'm sure this has been of great benefit to the members from southern Manitoba, to learn of the actiVities of the situation there, of what is available to them in various ways, and also in what ways they are restricted, so that we would have a greater understanding between the peoples froll4the south and north as far as Manitoba is concerned. Not only that, I think we should try and br ing people in from other areas and from the United States, and advertise this matter of the excursions because I think more people should see the north for themselves.

Then, too, there is a lot to offer that they have in the way of aport fishing and so on, so that certainly, in my opinion, we haven't nearly ex hausted '\\ 'hat could be done in Manitoba in the way of attracting people and provid ing the necessary facilities for them. I would like to hear from the Minister whether the idea of the dam is of interest to him and whe ther the Department of Tourism is giving support to the Department of Mine s and Natural Resources in trying to bring about deve lopme nt on the Pembina. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN : Mr.

Ghairman, I would like to ask the Minister one question and I apologize lf he's made refe rence to it and I missed his refe rence, but I didn't hear hlm make refe rence to a-que sti.�I raised last night having to ao with the possibility of a -major winter carnival for Winnlpeg. I understand that the hour of de cision is at hand for those people who are involved in the planning of such a winter- carnival. I refe r to people connected with Mants phere, and I think the Mlnlster knows that at one point that group had the support and the backing of the Metropolitan Corpo ration of Winnipeg.

They wer e pledged a $40, 000 grant, I believe, provided the Provincial Government would offer a matching grant. Thls would have provided the necessary financing for a major Wi nnipeg Winter Carnival at the end of this year, towards the end of our Ce ntennial year, which could have been combined with the Fest ival du Voyageur in St. Boniface and then constituted a launch pad for a regular annual winter carniv hlch --we hoped in the future DIIIPt · rival that which takes place ln st. Paul, liliDDeeota. Now my understanding, Mr.

Chairman, is that support of the magnitude sought has not been forthcoming from the Provincial Government. As-- a consequence there will be no $40, 000 grant from the Metropol itan Corpo ration, and I wonder l.f the Minister could advise the members oi the com mittee just-what the status of the projected Winnlpeg Winter Carni val is at the pres ent time and what the outlook is for such a project. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assinlbola.

April 22, 1970. 1187 MR . PATRICK: Mr.

Chairman, I wish to thank the Minister for giving the IUIBW&rs to some of the questions I raised last night, and as I started talking about regional attractions - and I had so many distractions from many members telling me about the Mennonite Museum and Morris Big M and so on, and the one that I really meant to talk about I fo rgot completely until I realized today that I did not mention it, and of course, I want to make refe rence at this time to the Manitoba Buffalo Barbecue which has been staged in Assinlboia for the last .five years and has been getting larger and bigger every year, and this will be the sixth one which is expected to be quite large.

It 's staged at the Crestview Shopping Centre on May 18th and I would like to invit e all the members and as many people to come out and partici pate in. -(In terj ection) - Manitoba Buffal o Barbecue, May 18th. -(In terjec tion) -All day. I know last year or last couple of years we even had some members as far as the Member from Virden has come out and participated and had a great time. There's many events scheduled at that time, such as certain schools in the area will be - the school bands will be performing and we'll have professional acts as well, grocery and pie-eating contests and so on.

So I'm sure some of the members will make themselves available to participate. There'll also be a draw fo r a one thousand live steer which will take place at the same time, so it is a real good attraction. I know we have more than 50, 000 to participate and it's worthwhile; so I hope that perhaps the Minister will be able to attend as well -- I want to invite him at this time.

The other point that I want to make some refe rence to and that 's in respect to - I, per haps can bri ng it up under the Parks Branch if the Minister would prefer it - it's to do with the park - if he would prefe r me to bring it up under the Parks Branch I will or I can touch on it right now, and that 's in respect to the 26. 5-acre prairie park that has been establ ished by the St. James-Asslniboia Council.

I understand at last night's council meeting they have transferred this property to the Parks Board and the idea is to preserve the park in its Datural undisturbed sta te, a piece of virgin prai rie land so that generations in the future can can understand the history· of the we�r Asyoumay_ll _ppr�e.each year in every school- house students are expected to ieam something about their natural herit age. The books teach, for exampl e, that much of the land was once covered by prairie grass and wild flowers, that we live in a prairie climate .

For instance the - my friend says the prairie crocUs, is certainly proclaimed the provincial floral emblem, and much is said about the beauty of the prairie sky. Early settlers found along the margin of this area very much wild grass and prair ie grass and I know at the present time if one would travel from Wlnnipeg to say down south in the State of Texas you don't see hardly any grass or none; you see grain fields and wheat fields of different types .

So I feel that perhaps the Mlnlster can support this pralrte park, because I understand the people from the departme nt , from the Department of Education, from the Parks Board a few years ago investigated. to see where they C8Jl esta blish a prairie pa rk in Manitoba and had done a tremendous study in this area looking for a real natural park in its natural state; they were not able to find one and they thought the one in st. James Asslniboia was one that was probably the best in its natural state , and this is why this 26 acres has been set as.ide.

I hope that the Minister will be interested enough to perhaps help to finance the project if it's going to be establ ished as a prai rie park museum or in whatev er way it will be developed. This plot in St. James - I'm told that trails left by the Red River carts as early residents set out to seek the ir fortunes hunt ing buff aloes in the Souris Plains and beyond, that you can still see some of thes e trai ls. You can also find some Indian tom bs, great mounds of earth heaped up by early residents of this area to mark the graves of their cherished dead.

This is the area where the buffalo wandered in the early days, on the st. James-Assinlboia pralrte, so really one can sense something of the glory of tho se days, and as well, I think that when we talk about the vanishing prairie here we have right in the middle of Metropolitan area a real wild prairie. I'm told that some of the other cities, for instance, are paying as much as $200, 000 for an acre of land fo r wild prai rie in some places across the line, and we have one here. I know that many many wild flowers that are still found in this area - and I'm refe rring to hundreds of flowers not just a few.

There may be required some financial support in developing this prairie park and I hope that the Mlnist er would certainly give it his consider ation. MR . CHAIRMAN: The . Honourable Member for" Rock Lake. MR. Wi:NRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, as I rise this afternoon to speak fo � the first time to the Minist er of Tourism on his estimates, I first of all want to �bi m�

118 8 April 22, 197 0. (MR. EINARSON cont'd) . . . his appointment and wish him well 1n his endeavour 1n this departmcmt.

Whlle I represent a constituency that is basically agriculture, and that industry being a very important one to that area and to the Province of Manitoba 1n general, I do want to say that I think the department that the Minister represents now has also become one of importance and whil e the amount of moneys lnvol ved are nothing 1n comparison to some of the other departments, I think he wlll agree with me that as we look at tourism and recreation today and as we think of what the potentials are going to be 1n the future, it's going to be one department that is going to become more and more important as the days and years go by.

There are some matters that concern me and my constituency 1n regards to Tourism and Recreation, and I think I should like to begin with first of all the one that seems to be talked of mostly, !llld that is the Rock Lake area. I would just like to take the Minister back briefly. I think he's been brought up to dat e to some extent on this particular matter -(Interjection)- Yes, as a matter of fact I understand he was out 1n my area over the weekend and was escorted around the area of Rock Lake, but unfortunately the weatherman wasn't all that co-operative and I don't think his trip was all that pleasant.

However, I would just like to go back a few years 1n Rock Lake when I first became the member, we bad a problem there of an algea problem and for the first few years we developed a program whereby the lake was being treated and very successfully so 1n combating that problem. A comm ittee was established which represented a member for three of the municipalities Involved 1n that area and also involved four departments of government whlcll composed the committee to bring up re -COmmendations whereby we could do something to further and improve Rock Lake itself and the facUlties 1n

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-2-48
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 2nd hansardpdf 48.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	992c1dbb1ef77757f405e9728a14872a0cf9e4ce

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