VOL. 3 NO. 27 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, APRIL 13, 1978 It I l f f t

April 13,1978 Tape No. 925 AH-1 The House met at 2:00 P.M. }!r. Speaker in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER MOORES: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. PRENIER HOORES : I would just like to say, Sir, in this morning's paper,and this is the first opportunity I have had to raise it~ I was not in the House the last half hour yesterday- it was stated that recently the Premier has had two meetings with Hr. Doyle, Hr. John C. Doyle,one at Claridges hotel in London and another in Grenada.

And looking up the Hansard of yesterday it says, "if the han. gentleman wants to know why they will not bring him back he should ask his Premier who met him'- let me see where it was, a Su=er resort there a few years ago-"cet him in Claridges in London and met him in Grenada!' Andfurther on it says that this has been within the last year or two. Mr. Speaker, I would like to make it very clear to the House, not that I would consider anything wrong with it because Hr. Doyle,I do not think,it is fair to say has any got any special consideration from this government in the favourable sense.

But I would like to make it absolutely clear that I saw Mr. John C.Doyle in Grenada in 1973 when he arrived unannounced. I had one meeting with him,which was the end of that, a conference and other than that to the best of my knowledge I have not seen Mr. John c. Doyle since. HR. NEARY: ~!r. Speaker, to that point of privilege I brought the paper with me, Sir, to make the appropriate correction because it was a misquote as the Premier can see from Hansard,that I did say that the han. the Premier had met with Mr.

Doyle a few years back,but I said if the hon. ilouse wanted an updating they could very easily get it from the Hinister of Industrial Development who met with the same gentleman in recent .. i .1 '· • F·. ' .. .>

April 13,1978 PREMIER MOORES: Tape No. 928 Ali- 2 months, within thE last year in Nassau and in Panama, So I do want to make that correction, Mr. Speaker, As the bon. members can see from the Hansard that was just read by the Premier that I did say - the statement that I made was correct, Sir, but I was misquoted. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon, Premier. PREMIER ~!DO RES: If I may to tha.t same point of privilege. The coDDilents that are made in the Hansard of yesterday somewhere it said there a year oo:: two ago, referring to the Premier, Sir, and that is absolutely incorrect. MR.

NEARY: To that point of privilege. PREMIER MOORES: If I may just finish~ Whether the Minister of Industrial Development or the member fur LaPoile Q1r. Neary) or the member for Conception Bay South (Mr.Nolan) or any of the other members who may or may not have seen Mr. Doyle in the interim,! think that is irrelevant, All I am trying to do, Sir, is straighten out the record as far as I am concerned. MR. ~i'EARY: To that point of privilege, Sir. The fact remains that the bon, gentleman did have a meeting, Sir, and that is what I said. PREMIER MOORES: A year or two ago ~ NR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the bon, Premier just read out there, I said a few years ago. PREMIER MOORES: You said a year or two ago. HR. NEARY·: Well go back to Hansard there a little bit and you will see a few years ago, AN HON, MEMBER: PREMIER HOORES: MR. NEARY: It is Hansard, It is Hansard. And referring to the hon. minister of Ibdustrial Development, Sir, when I said within the last year. AN HON. MEMBER: No, you did not. . ,•

April 1 3,197 8 Tap e N o. 928 AH- 3 MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. NR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think we have e.xhausted the procedure applicable under the heading Personal Explanations and May makes the following points: "In regard to tile eXplanation of personal matters the House is usually indulgent and will permit a statement of that character to be made without any question being before the House 1 " and that I understand has been done.

It goes on to say "No debate should ensue thereon but if another member is involved in the personal statement he is generally allowed to give his own view of the matter and to say whether he accepts it or not." I believe now both of those areas of e:xplanation bave been exhausted. ,l !

April 13, 1978 Tape 929 EC - 1 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a matter of privilege I wanted to raise. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman is standing on a matter of privilege. I will hear that. HR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I would refer Your Honour first of all to Beauchesne, page 256, paragraph 331, which says in part: "The right of petitioning the Crown and Parliament for redress of grievances is acknowledged as a fundamental principle of the constitution, and has been uninterruptedly exercised from very early times." Also in Beauchesne, page 97, paragraph 106 (2) says in part: "If all the privileges of Parliament were set down and ascertained, and no privilege to be allowed but what was so defined and determined, it were easy for the executive power to devise some new case, not within the line of privilege, and under pretence thereof, to harass any refractory member and violate the freedom of Parliament." It is the first part of that sentence that I particularly want to draw Your Honour's attention to, the clear inference that all the privileges of Parliament are not clearly set down in any finite list.

With that in mind, Hr. Speaker, and also keeping in mind the first reference on page 256, the right of petitioning being a fundamental principle of the constitution, I would submit, Mr. Speaker, that it is l clearly one of the privileges of this Rouse to receive petitions addressed to the Crown and/or to Parliament for redress of grievances. Mr.

Speaker, the han. the Premier received approximately three weeks ago a petition from a large number of petitioners, in this instance in my district, which petition cites a very serious set of grievances, and the han. the Premier has failed to discharge his obligation to present that petition to this House, and I submit,

April 13, 1978 Tape 929 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, in so failing has deprived the petitioners of a fundamental right under the constitution. I would refer Your Honour also to Beauchesne, page 259, paragraph 342, which reads: "A member cannot be compelled to present a petition. In 1891, a person, in England, forwarded to two members of the British House of Commons a petition for presentation; and the petition was returned to the sender because it infringed the rules of the House.

That person in consequence brought actions against the members and the Clerk who had acted in the matter, but the actions were dismissed on the ground that the causes of complaint were not cognizable by a court of law." Mr. Speaker, I make reference to that because it is the obvious retort to my point of privilege. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that this particular paragraph 342 addresses itself to the improper nature of a petition and that it was not presented for that particular reason.

And it is clear, I believe, that all members would have an obligation to the House,under the privilege of the House again, to see to it that no petition was presented to the House which it was improper to do so by reason of the wording or the content or for whatever reason else it might be rendered improper. Mr. Speaker, I believe that I have established a prima facie case that the Premier has breached a privilege of the House in not presenting the petition. I have based my case on one petition - there are others, Mr.

Speaker -and I believe the case has been established and I believe it is a sufficiently important one that we ought to clear it up. I believe the case has been established, Mr. Speaker, and I am prepared at the appropriate time to move the appropriate motion. I would not propose moving a

April 13, 1978 Tape 929 EC - 3 MR. SU1HONS: motion to reprimand or to censure, that is n o t my aim here, but a motion that would direct t he Premier to ?resent the petition so that the p~titioners can have an opportunity f o r redress of grievance which is their right under law. ~!R. NEARY: !!ear, hear! ~IR. SPEAKER : The hon . the ~inis t er of Mines and Energy . !·1R. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, to that specious point of privilege, all the references pointed out by the hon. mecber in order to give some kind of credibility to his privilege I j .I

April 13, 19 78 Tape 930 DW - 1 HR. PECKFOR.D: has nowhere in it a time frame to start with, Mr. Speaker, there is nowhere in the references mentionea by the hen. member a time frame•And I would suggest that if the hen. gentleman is talking about a petition that was sent to the hen. the Premier two or three weeks ago,that the House now is sitting,w~ll continue to sit for a number of weeks from this day~and that there is nowhere tnat I know of, Mr.

Speaker, any time frame given in Lhe refer- ences mentioned by the hen. member for Burgee- Bay d' Espoir who is making the point of privilege and hence there is no privileges of the House that has been broken here·And unless additional evidence based on references like Beauchesne or }~y or Standing Orders can be b~ought to bear on the so-called point of privilege,there is no point of privilege because there is no time frame and given a general,fair - the rule of common sense should apply, Hr.

Speaker, I would suggest-given a fair amount of time in the given session that we are now in,and if all of these references were valid and if the point of privilege is a valid point of privilege,it would have to, I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, on the rule of common sense since there is no reference that I can just generally point to now,wait until this session was near its end or at its eud before a valid point of privilege could be made based on those references and therefore. Mr.Speaker, I would submit that no point of privilege exists. MR. SI.MNO~~S: If I may just clarify this? ~IR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee- Bay d' Espoir. HR. SINMONS: It is !1 matter I ~ meant to address myself to~and the minister has reminded me,the matter of time frame is an inportant one ,here and I agree with him. The purpose of my point of privilege will be served if the Premier will now indicate the intent to present it.! had assumed,and perhaps I was being wrong in doing th,a, ~r.

Speaker, I had assumed that he had no intention of presenting since he acknowledged the petition by letter more than a week ago, and for that reason I would suggest the obvious time,the proper time to present the petition would be at least before acknowledging the letter or soon .. '· I

April l3, 1978 Tape 930 DW - 2 MR. PECKFORD: after unless he had some particular reason for sitting on it,for not bringing it to the House,and that is quite anoth~r matter.But in the normal course of events the Premier has been in the House and in the ~r~c~nct£of the House quite regularly in the last week or so,so he certainly had opportunity,he certainly has received the petition because he has acknowledged in writing the petition, on April 4th. he acknowledged having received the petition,so I assume from that that he had obviously decided,at least for the time being,not to present the petition.

The matter can be fully served, Hr. Speaker, if the Premier will now stand in his place and say he intends to bring in the petition. HR. PECKFORD: To that point, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Hon. minister. l1R. PECKFORD: rhe point if I may just submit,is that I do not think any member is under any obligation,because another hon. member brings it up,to indicate when they intend to bring a petition before the House that has been submitted to them.! do not think there is any obligation there to do that.! think the normal course of time has to elapse before,as I said earlLer,any point of privilege can be made.

The fact that the hon. the Premier.or his office has acknowledged the petition that was sent in the first instance to him as Premier,and theu later obviously through the House if that is an order,has no bearing upon whether there is a point of privilege or not. MR. SPEAKER: Since this is a new point I will give a decision later after I have left the Chair and have had an opportunity to re•!ie~ 'e4'e,ences quoted to me and any others which might be relevant. STATEl1ENTS BY MINISTERS !VIR. SPEAKER: The hon. Ninister of Fisheries. MR. 1'1. CARTER: Hr.

Speaker, last year my department undertook a comprehensive study into the cod glut problem which has plagued the inshore fishery~especially the trap fishery,for the past number of years. That study 9 which took more than six months to complete 1 resulted in a forty- seven page report being presented to me earlier this year with a number of major recommendations. The first recommendation in that report called for r I t "

April 13 , 19 71! Tape 930 DW - 3 HR. W. CARTER: the establishment of information desks throughout the Province to facilitate the exchange of informa- tion concerning the most effective distribution of fish catches to processors around the Province. The report estimated that 25 million pounds of cadfisb are lost to the Province annually because fisher- men are force to dump their fish or cannot haul their nets because of the processing plants are .unable to handle the additional raw material.

If this fish could be landed and processed it would mean an additional $14.4 million into the provincial economy in terms of landed value, finished product and manpower. Nr. Speaker, the objective i s to eliminate the dumping of fish which will increase landings for inshore fishermen and increase plant throughput and plant util i zation •. - --I am pleased to announce today that a management committee will be set up to oversee the establishment and operation of these information , desks. At the close of the season the committee will submit a report to me concerning their ope:ration. The ! { i I

April 13, 1978 Tape 931 PK - 1 Mr. W. Carter: committee,which will serve without remuneration, will be made up of Mr. Gus Etchegary, Mr. Bud O'Brien from the Fish and Trades Association, Mr. Calvin Greene from the Salt Fish Processors Corporation, Mr. Bren Kennedy from the Salt Fish Corporation, Mr. William Short from the Fishermen's Union.

Six information desks will be established in each of the following locations; Port Saunders- and I should add,by the way, the locations while in some cases are not noted for their fish production are centrally located, and we believe are better able to serve the needs in this particular case than maybe some of the other more well known fish producing areas. The locations will be Port Saunders, Grand Falls, Gander, Harbour Grace, Marystown, and Stephenville.

These locaticns,which were unanimously agreed to by all of the participating agencies and individuals,were selected for their geographic location, adequate communication facilities, and the availability of office space. Each information desk will be responsible for a designated area. It will be staffed by two individuals who will work overlapping shifts from 6:00 A.M. in the morning to 9:00 P.M. in the evening,Monday to Saturday,for a three month period.

Each office will establish and maintain contact with landing points, processors and truckers with a view to facilitate the exchange of information concerning availability of fish and plant capacity. In addition, Mr. Speaker, a co-ordinating manager will also be appointed to super1ise the functioning of the desk, and to serve as an intermeditary on behalf of the Manage~ent Committee . It is intended to second a suitable person from within government for this position,or failing that to engage a qualified person for a four month period starting May 1. This project, Mr.

Speaker, represents the unanimous view of the Fish Trades Association, th~ Salt Fish Corporation, the Salt Fish Processors Association, and the Fishermen's Union. And I might add, Mr. Speaker, that representatives from these groups were .,, ' ., 1

April 13, 1978 Tape 931 PK - 2 Mr. W. Carter: members of the Committee appointed by me last Fall-or at least last Summer to undertake this study. And like I said earlier,representatives from these four main groups, compotents in the fishing industry have agreed to serve without pay for the period mentioned in an advisory and in a management capacity. Mr. Speaker, we realize that the cod glut problem will not be solved overnight. However, this project should go a long way to alleviating the problem. And I should point out, Mr.

Speaker, that the Committee to which I have referred was chaired by a former Chairman of the Fisheries Loan Board,Mr. Cliff Russell, who spent quite some time travelling the Province, visited in all thirty-five areas, fishing areas. It was ascertained during the study that while the glut does occur in many areas, plants in many areas are blocked during a certain time of the year, that even during that period there are plants in the Province with vastly under-utilized capacity.

And that is why we believe with this kind of a co-ordinated information service,with the proper kind of co-ordination with respect to the transporting of this fish,which we had done, that to a large extent the glut problem can be overcome. We have also, Mr. Speaker, undertaken a complete inventory of all of the trucks in the Province that are capable of handling fish, of transporting fish, and we have asked the owners of these trucks, the trucking companies,to co-operate with our regional desks during the glut period. This, Mr.

Speaker, is but one initiative that we will be announcing with respect to this problem and I am honing within a few weeks to be able to announce another initiative that we will be taking in 1978, and certainly more long-term initiatives that we will be studying and hopefully getting in place in 1979 and the years to come. But like I said, Mr. Speaker, it is a very serious problem, the matter of the glut. Millions of pounds of i_ -j: u '• ., j, I I ,, J -'~ tr 'l i

April 12, 1978 Tape No. 932 NH - 1 HR. W. CARTER: fish are dumped, left in the traps, causing, as I have said in my statement, a loss to the Province, of an estimated $14 million a year, not to mention many hundred hours of labour in the processing sector. MR. SPEAKER: !he hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. HR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, how many reco11111endations were made exactly? It just escapes my mind at the moment. MR. w. CARTER: How many what? HR. F. ROWE: How many recommendations were made in this report? l1R. w. CARTER: Oh,about seventeen I guess, sL~teen or seventeen altogether. MR. F. ROWE: Hr .

Speaker, time will not permit me to g~t into the details of this particular ministerial statement to the degree to which I wish, Sir, but it is absolutely astounding that we have 25 million pounds of codfish, \~hich are lost to the Province annually, and this means of course $14.4 million lost to the provincial economy each year . It is an absolutely astounding figure and any move that can be made at all to handle that particular situation, and correct it, any small move, however small it is, is welcome.

The ministerial statement makes reference to the fact that during the past \~inter a number of processing plants installed additional freezing and processing capacity to handle the finished product. I would ask the minister sometime if he could table the number of plants and the locations of these plants throughout the Province so that we can see,you know,whether there is a reasonabl~ and relatively good distribution of these additional freezing facilities.

Sir, the gentlemen serving on the committee are good gentlemen, on the information desk, the committee there, There is one glaring ommission,ia my opinion, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the location of these six information desks which are to serve the Province, the minister said. Now, Sir, we all know that Labrador is a part of this Province, and I sincerely suggest . .. ' i ! J

April 12, 1978 Tape No. 932 NM - 2 MR. F. ROl~: and recommend to the minister that he reconsider the location of - add a seventh, or delete one here and put an information desk, I understand probably the most central place in Labrador would be the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area,becauae there is a tremendous fishery on the Labrador Coast. I do not know the degree of the cod glut, the trap cod glut on the Labrador Coast. I understand it is not that great but I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that these information desks will be handling more than enquiries directly related to the trap cod ~lut.

I would think that other problems such as the herring ~lut, the lack of barrels to handle the herring and these other related problems in the fisher~es will come to these gentlemen at these information desks. And I would recommend, I really cannot see the rationale, I have nothing against Grand Falls whatsoever, it may be centrally located, but I really cannot see the rationale for having Grand Falls,for exarnple,there as a location for an information desk, and no location whatsoever in the great land mass of the Labrador

section of our Province and I sincerely recommend to the minister that he establish an information desk in the Labrador area. Sir, if I may continue for just another moment, I am really surprised that after all of the studies by the previous administration, and the present administration, over the past twenty- seven or twenty-eight years, that we do not have a vast amount of information with respect to processors and truckers with a view to facilitate the exchange of information concerning the availability of fish and plant capacity. I am really surprised, Mr.

Speaker, that we do not have this information on hand now within the various agencies of the government, the federal government, and the provincial government. Sir, the only thing that I can say in closing is this, that I cannot obviously criticize any small step forward in solving that particular problem because it is a very serious problem in this Province of ours. However, there are seventeen recommendations j !

April 13, 1978 Tape 933 EC - 1 MR. F. ROWE: and although this has the unanimous view and support of the Fish Trades Association and Salt Fish Corporation, the Salt Fish Processors and the Fishermen's Union, I would think that the other sixteen or seventeen recommendations are o~ equal if not more importance and that it is time to get on with the job. We have the studies, now we are setting up information desks. I think the important thing to do is get into some form of activity so that this $14.4 million can be recovered.

We are just throwing away $14.4 million each year, and of course, that could increase year after year. But the ~ost important point that I want to make is the glaring omission of an information desk in the Labrador area of the Province and I do not think the minister can explain that away by saying that there is not a serious cod trap glut situation on the Labrador coast because I can assure the minister that these information desks are going to have to handle more inquiries than just the trap cod glut situation itself. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W.

CARTER: Maybe I can respond to some of the points made by the han. member. First of all, he mentioned about the increased freezing capability in the Province this year. I do not have a list of all of the locations and the actual increase in the number of freezers,- plate freezers and so on, but I have been told by my officials that 1978 will see - MR. F. ROWE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : On a point of order. MR. F.

ROWE: I realize that I did put some questions to the minister, but the minister now has made a ministerial statement and now I have made some comments and put some questions to the minister. The point of order 1 -~ ' [ r '{ • f ~ I ' t t t ; E

April 13, 1978 Tap e 93 3 EC - 2 MR. F. ROWE: is really a point of information, I guess, Mr. Speaker. AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. F. ROWE: Right. In view of the fact that the minister now is making some statements as a result of statements that I have made, the obvious question to be asked is would I be allowed to respond to the minister? AN HON. MEMBER: Would anyone else? MR.

SPEAKER: The general rule with respect to ministerial statements ,is the minister makes it, a spokesman -_the Leader of the Opposition or a spokesman on his behalf•may make comments and ask for explanation, and that obviously requires~since he can ask for explanation, that the minister be able to reply. I think if one were to go beyond that we would be in debate, because it clearly states that there would be no debate.

So if after the minister were to reply to the questions, the questioner were again to make comments and ask another question and the minister were again to answer questions, then the questioner might again wish to make further comments and we could have a whole series. MR. NEARY: Well, can the minister introduce new material? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman to my right has the right to make brief comments and to ask for explanations, and the minister has the right to give those explanations and it ends there. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, that is what I am attempting to do if the hen. member did not interrupt.

I was about to tell the House that in 1978 we anticipate an increase in the freezing capability in the Province, around 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 pounds a day. I want to make reference to his comments on Labrador. We are not setting up these • f. ~ I '

April 13, 1978 Tape 933 EC - 3 HR. tV. CARTER: desks merely to establish desks. We are setting them up where they can serve a purpose. In Labrador, of course, there is no glut that I am aware of, no serious glut, and even if you had a glut in certain parts of,say~Northern Labrador, it would be extremely difficult,! am sure, to find ways of transporting that fish, especially flatfish, to a nearby plant. What was the other point ynn mentioned? MR. NEARY: You have had long enough. Sit down, boy, sit down! AN RON. HEMBER: He does not want to know the information. MR. l'.

CARTER: I can understand how this kind of a statement would irritate the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. F. ROWE: The hon. the minister is asking me a question, Mr. Speaker, so I would answer his question if I am permitted. MR. SPEAKER: That is all right. MR. F.

ROWE: I did point out the fact that I was aware of the fact that there is not necessarily a serious cod fish glut situation the Labrador coast - not a serious one - it is serious in some other parts of the Province, but what I am submitting to the hon. the ~inister of Fisheries is that there are herring glut situations because of the lack of availability of,say,herring barrels and this kind of thing and other facilities to take care of it, and salmon and all other species of fish.

And what I am suggesting to the minister is that these information desks are going to have to contend with inquiries and questions and problems other than those directly related to the cod fish trap glut. And the point that I am making is, taking that into consideration,it is ~ I

April 13, 19 78 Tape No. 934 NM- 1 NR. F. ROWE: a glaring ommission not to have an office representing the Labrador portion of our PEovince, namely in Happy Valley - Goose Bay. l1R. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. H. COLLINS: Violates every rule in the House. UR. F. ROWE: ~k. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEA.'<ER: A point of order. HR. F. ROWE: The hon. Minister of Health, as usual, has not made a speech in this House of Assembly yet this session. HR. NEARY: No, not allowed. UR. F. ROWE: He certainly has not made any sense except to yap away from the corner there. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. F.

R<JWE: Now my point of order is this. MR. SPEAKER: Right. That is exactly what I was going to ask the hon. gentleman, what the point of order was. k"'i HON. MEMBER: You are not allowed to make a speech. NR. F. ROWE: The minister has accused me, Sir, of violating every rule in this House. I heard him very clearly and distinctly. Now I ask the minister without qualification, through you, }ir. Speaker, to withdraw that statement because it is quite unparliamentary and untrue. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLL.'<S: To that point of order.

As Your Honour alluded to a little while ago, the minister has the right to make a ministerial statement and a designated - the Leader of the Opposition, or a designated person has the right to respond in a few short comments to that statement, and ask some question of clarification. Obviously the han. member has been getting away with debating the issue ever since it was introduced. MR. F. ROWE: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps the han. member will inform me what he is alleging that the hon. member to my left said. i .I i ,, :i !} it If 'i ' ~ I

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 934 NH - 2 NR. F. ROWE: The hon. Minister of Health, Sir, accused me of violating every rule of the House. HR. NEARY: If you cannot attribute motives - HR. F. ROWE: Right, Sir, and I might add in response to the hon. minister, that I got up for the second time, begged the permission of the Chair in order to answer a question put to me by the hon, Hinister of Fisheries. AN RON. MEMBER: That is right. MR.. F. ROWE: So I ask the Minister of Health to withdraw without qualification. HR. NEARY: Can the Premier not control his members? They are out of control. A." liON. NEMBER: So= days. MR.

NEARY: Only some days. What about weekends? HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The point of order, as I understand it, is the hon. gentleman to my right has alleged that the hon. Minister of Health has stated that the hon. gentleman to my right has violated all the rules of the House, or violated rules of the House. HR. NEARY: Untrue. }lR. SPEAKER: It is not for me to judge the truth of the allegation or not, obviously that is a matter - I am not aware that he attributed any motive to him.

It would appear to me that - I mean one hears quite frequently a member from one side to the opposite say, "Oh sit down, ,you do not know the rules." Or, "Sit down, you are brf!aking the rules," or this or that and if all of those were to be points of order then there would be sort of constant interruptions. It appears to me that in the adversary situation there is not impugning of motive or a personal derrogation of a member there.

Obviously I can rule the hon. gentleman out of order on the very basis of it because nobody is supposed to say anything unless they are recognized~and that might be the most generic concept: Anybody who

Apr il 13, 19 78 Tape No. 934 NM - 3 :tim.. SPEAKER: says anything without being recognized by the Chair is out of order. And of course there are few, if any, present who do not at times put themselves in that category. MR. NEARY: Charge it up to stupidity. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Carbonear. MR. B.. MOORES: ~~. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of a number of teachers at St. Clare's High School in Carbonear, who are, and it is a fairly lengthy prayer, Mr. Speaker, so perhaps it would be appropriate if I paraphrased somewhat.

Essentially what the teachers .are saying, Mr. Speaker, is that the reeent policy of this government to reduce the teaching staff in the Province will adversely affect, number one, the student/teacher ratio in this Province, which in turn will affect the number of dropouts in our schools and will also affect the variety of course ccmtent in that some major and fairly mociern methods of teaching and c.ourse inatruction will be either reduced substantially or irradicated. Mr.

Speaker, we have been in th:is !louse for the past month or so, bee'!). bantering this issue, and I say bantering because that is essentially what is happening. The Opposition, us, the hon. members on this side of the !louse are saying that the govei'1Jlllent has been wrong, ! I ~ t

April 13,1978 Tape No. 935 AH-1 HR. MOORES: that it is wrong to reduce teacher-student ratios and teaching staff because of economic reasons. And the government on the other hand is saying that they have a responsibility to the people of the Province to keep the government accounts in line with the requirements vf the economy. Mr. Speaker, when I was growing up ~ Carbonear I attended for all of my life perhaps one of the best educational systems this Province could offer.

We had exceptional laboratory facilities, recreational facilities and usually when there was a modern programme injected into the system by the Department of Education it was sent to Carbonear and some other schools in the Province. And as a result of that the drop-out rate in that school system was one of the lowest in the Proviuce,aud by comparison a small two room school just about a half mile away with ten grades in one classroom had one of the most appalling drop-out rates , not only in the area but in tne Province as a whole.

So what I am saying in effect is that wnen the }linister of Education makes a statement and he does not see HR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAJ.<ER: A point of order. 11R. PECKFORD: I think it is fair to all hon. members, i·Ir. Speaker, that Standing Order 92 and Standing Order 97 apply here. Standing Order 92: Every memeber offering a petition to the House shall confine himself to the statement of the parties from whom it comes, the number of signatures attached to it and the material allegations it contains.

Standing Order 97: There shall be no debate on the petition unless the House has it under consideration. I submit, }k, Speaker, that the hon. member is now straying from the prayer of the petition that he is presenting and tnat he is getting into statements being made by the Minister of l I' I I ; t I

April 13,1978 Tape No. 935 AH-2 l:!R PECKFORD: Education and hence is being irrelevant to the petition that he is trying to present. l-IR. SPEAKER: Han. member for Carbonear on that point of order. MR. HOORES: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order.

I thought and rightly so that I was doing the House a favour in paraphrasing the prayer of the petition and fa~ that reason perhaps the bon. member is somewhat confused as to what really relates or does nat relate to what the prayer in fact says. ' Unfortunately therefore I find it necessary to perhaps unnecessarily consume time of this Hause by reading the entire prayer. With your permission, Sir. HR.

SPEAKER: Certainly the hon. gentleman when presenting a petition is entitled to present the prayer,which is the substance of it and that is what the material allegation obviously refers to 1 the prayer,and he has informed the House that he is paraphrasing it rather than reading it verbatim and that is certainly acceptable. The han. member for Carbonear. i1R. NEARY: Number four has kind of muzzled the han. gentleman SOME HON. MEMB:t:KS: Oh, oh! MR. MOORES: If I can continue, Mr. Speaker, or if I may continue.

The resolution of the petition says that"we strongly urge you as representatives of the interest of Newfoundland children to reconsider the proposed policy of teacher cutbacks and in so doing take a forward step to improve the quality of education." And that is exactly what in my opinion the llinister of Education, as representing the policies of the Government of Newfoundland,is not doing.

In cutting back on teacher staff in this Province,and vis-a-vis teacher-student ratios,will do nothing, absolutely nothing to increase the quality of education. but over an extended period of time and implicit in that statement is that this is merely the start of a government trend in this Province that will do nothing to improve but,Gad forbid 1 decrease what is perhaps already in Canada ;· . • I'' 1 1 i ' I f '

April 13',197 8 Tape No . 935 e.H-3 MR. ~!OORES: one of the systemS of education which leaves a lot to be desired. Thank You. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for La.Poile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to whclehea:tedly support the petition so ably presented by my hon. coJ.league,the member for Carboneat,on behalf of the staff of St. Clare's Central High S~o1. I bad the privilege a short while ago,as my hon. friend is aware, l J ! ! .I .· ' '

April 13, 1978 Tape 936 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: to address the staff and the pupils of St. Clare's Central High School in Carbonear. It was one of the best experiences, I think, I have ever had to go into that high school to see these bright young students there, the auditorium was blocked, filled to capacity that day, the nuns were there, and it was a very enjoyable occasion indeed. So I could not let the opportunity go by without supporting the prayer of the petition. And in so doing, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say this,that what is developing now, what is unfolding in this Province at the present time are a number of confrontations between the University and the department, between the school boards and the NTA, between the NTA and the minister, between the parents, the PTA Associations, and the staff of the schools, and the Department of Education. And the whole thing is just one great big shemozzle. The minister, Sir, has thrown the educational system in this Province into chaos. And, Mr.

Speaker, I think the only way to resolve this matter, the only way to resolve it, Sir, as far as I can see is,apart from reconsidering what the prayer of the petition asked for, the reconsidering the cut back in teachers, in the various schools in this Province, the only real solution, Sir, is one that I have been advocating now for aight to ten years, and that is to set up a fact-finding committee to take a look at our whole educational systel" . to see if we are getting the value of our educational dollar, and if we are headed in the right direction in education in this Province.

That is the only way the matter, Sir, will - ever be resolved. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova . MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say a few words in support of this petition. One of the points that particularly caught my attention when the hon. member was presenting the petition was the reference to the fact that the teachers were concerned that the teacher cut back would affect the variety of course content. And that is a major point, I think, Mr. Speaker, in this petition,that l ,. I ' ·;, . :~ .. •• .. • J '

April 13, 1978 Tape 936 PK ~ 2 Mr. Lush: the cut back with respect to teachers will indeed affect the variety of course content. This is something that we have not been overly blessed with in Newfoundland, particularly in ntral Newfoundland, the number of courses that we could offer high school students. Indeed - MR. RIDEOUT: Oh, here is the new House Leader. Thank God, MR. SI~~ONS: Number two is back. MR. RIDEOUT: It was a shambles while you were away. MR.

LUSH: If one were to look at the course content in Newfoundland today I am sure you would find a tremendous discrepancy in the courses that are offered in various schools throughout the Province, particularly when comparing urban schools with rural schools. And as a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, for the benefit of the members of the House I did have an opportunity to look at that very aspect one time last year, and I found out that in schools - with comparing urban schools with rural schools,that the discrepancy went from thirteen courses offered, a maximum of thirteen courses offered in one particular school to six in another school. Six was almost the bare minimum that a student can do to qualify for university.

So when we look at this I think we can find a tremendous discrepancy, and certainly a situation which does not give students in this Province ecualitv of educational opportunity when in one instance you have one school able to double the course offerings as that given to another school.

So I think this is certainly a major point of this petition,that the teacher cut backs will affect the variety of course content because certainly the number of courses that can be offered in any school is related to the numbers of teachers in a schooL And in rural Newfoundland in particular that our students have no way at all of competing with students in urban centres where,as I said before, students have twelve, thirteen courses to choose from

whereas in other schools they have no choice at all but just to take what is laid on, .I I. -~ • ,!; ,, q ,,

Apri.l 13, 1978 Tape 936 PK- 3 Mr. Lush: And this cut back in the teachers is going to restrict even more that flexibility. And just a furtber point on these course offerings; I think another point that han. members should be made aware is that- let us take,for example,a science programme. Many of our schools can only offer a general science course, an earth science course,

whereas, av.ain in schools with more teachers and more facilities,they can offer chemistry, biology, physics. So, Mr. Speaker, this cut back in teachers will certainly affect the quality of education in terms of the variety, and in terms of the variet:y of course content, but more pointedly so, it is going to affect educational equality, equality of opportunity because students in areas where the teachers are reduced are not going to be able ,,certainly schools are not going to be able, to offer the variety of course content. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ;· I. !. [ . . 1: !I ·I l \ . • ,.

April 13 , 1978 Tap e 937 EC - 1 }!JL SntMONS: Mr.. Speaker. HR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bur~eo - Bay d 1 Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I want to support this petition. It is a petition, I believe, that is deserving of the support of every member of this House, and perhaps we could do a lot worse today than take the rest of the time of the House until 6:00 P.M. to talk on it, because it appears to be obviously the only way we are going to get to talk about it in this House.

It is a serious matter, many people are concerned about it. -It is a subject of literally dozens of petitions already, either presented in this House or about to be presented. on the wa' to members of the House 1 - and yet we are not getting any opportunity to properly air the subject that is so important to literally every Newfoundlander today. And that is the consequence, the very frightful implications of the decision of the Minister of Education and his colleagues in Cabinet to put into effect this year the now well-known educational cutbacks. Mr.

Speaker, I mentioned the other day - mY colleague from LaPoile (Ur. Neary) has repeated what he said many times, the need for an inquiry of some sort. And I can understand that the Premier must be running out of judges for public inquiries, but there are other routes to go if a public inquiry is not practical at this time. In this Rouse we do not use the committee system nearly as much as they do elsewhere in Canada. Indeed, apart from the Committee of the Whole and Supply and Ways and Means there is only one Standing Committee, ~ ; ., } f . j

April 13, 1978 Tape 937 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: Public Accounts, which is operating in this particular House. We have no select committee at this particular time, and perhaps we ought to be looking at either a public inquiry or an inqairy through the process of a select committee. Let us find out once and for all if what the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) just said is true.

I happen to believe it is true, I happen to believe the education system is going to be a long while recovering from the blow that it is being dealt this year by the minister and by his colleagues in Cabinet~ a long time recovering from the blow. I may be wrong, and if the minister would like to prove me wrong what better way to do it than to recommend to his colleagues that a select committee of this House be set up, or otherwise, a public inquiry be put in place without delay to determine once and for all the questions that everybody is asking and nobody has a definitive answer to.

I believe we would come a step closer if we had a select committee or a public inquiry to look into this matter now and find out once anc for all what adverse effect on the quality of education and on the equality of educational opportunity,which my colleague mentioned, what effect it is going to have on these matters in the foreseeable future. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Grand Falls. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to just add a word or two to the remarks of the bon. the member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons).

First of all, as I said two or three days ago when one petition was presented, I believe the issue is much more complicated than the pupil/teacher ratio. I think the member admits that himself. It is much

April 13, 1978 Tape 937 EC - 3 MR. LUNDRIGAN: more complicated. It is also much mare complicated than the amount of money being spent on education. Right now, as I point~d out before, we are looking at $150.9 million, 49.5 per cent of the total education budget is going to teachers' salaries- that is in the day school system, not in the College of Trades and Technology, not in the Fisheries College. And obviously, there is a lot of money being spent on teachers' salaries. So I do not think it is quite that simple.

I raised the point a couple of days ago that we have to look at what is happening to the educational dollar What is happening to the salary dollar? How many of these salary dollars are going directly front and center into the classroom? I raised the question and I did not criticize - I am not well enough aware to criticize what is happening to the educational dollar, but I am curious to know what breakdown there is in the classroom dollar and the administration dollar. That is the question we have been talking about for the last several years. I am not certain of it - I am concerned about it, as I ,said before.

I remember being a teacher for a number of years and I remember being in school systems where the quality of education was excellent. And I think the quality of education, by the way, in our Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is superior to a number of the Canadian provinces even today . And maybe it is training, as the member said' maybe it is, but I have lived in three and I have studied in several and I will say categorically that our system is superior to what they have, certainly I can say in Ontario, where I have had practical experience for half a dozen years.

But I am worried about the administrative dollar, I am really ! t ~ I .

April 13, 1978 Tape 938 DW - 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: worried about it because I have got a feeling,and I believe the teachers will say themselves that they are concerned that the bulk of the salary dollars today do not end up directly through curriculum and classroom activity,which is wnere curriculum exists,going into education directly into education. And I think that when the effort is put in place that I have heard the minister alludeto,some kind of a task force,r believe he said,or some kind of an inquiry~some kind of - not a Royal Commission.! do not want to see a Dr.

Phil Warren Commission,that that will be beneficial and I think it will bring this out in the open.Now I am going to comment directly on the member's recommendation this afternoon.! think he has a good recommendation. Thatis about the first time I have stood in my place and made the observation that the member has a good recommendation, but I believe he has a good recocmendation,I support his recommendation.

I think the idea of the members of the Legislature other than the Cabinet- who rio not have,never will have time to really delve into this will be a worthwhile and useful process to have some kind of a committee specifically struck not an education committee that will last twenty years,but a committee specifically struck that can meet and do some practical work. i~ot only in this field 1but also yesterday we tal.ked about Labrador services, Labrador resources,Labrador resolutions that is tr.e way that members who are full-time,most of the members today are full-time members,can be put to practical benefit and maybe all they will add down the road three or four . months is a little bit of. light on the subject ,It might not be an answer,the recommendations might not be practical,but it will add a bit of light,..:~ is not a search, . an inquiry-I hate that word because it almost sounds like some kind of a hunt or an~investigative type of thing- not that,something that will allow members who have a role to play here in the Legislature to visit around the Province and hear from the teachers.

And I will tell you what,I will predict teachers will say they are concerned about the fact that a lot of educational dollars are not directly benefiting the young people in the classroom. ~iR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Burin - Placentia West. I will recognize the hon. minister after.

April 13, 1978 Tape 938 DW - 2 HR. P. CANNING: Hr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition. Within the past week I have had to reply to some 2,000-plus inquiries that I got in my district asking me if I·agreed or disagreed ·with tne government policy regarding the teacher - pupil ratio. Mr. Speaker, I have replied to them that I did not agree with it.For Mr.

Speaker, I was brought up with one teacher for eleven grades with about sixty-eight or seventy pupils~one teacher from grade one to grade eleven,and I made the grade eleven so sometimes I think I must be fairly bright or either that I had a darned . good teacher. But realizing that I was very much interested in ·one of the previous speakers who spoke of the difference between urban and rural schools,Mr.

Speaker, the principle of the thing~I certainly do not agree with the government's policy and I think it was a terrible area to consider when th~y were trying to cut the costs,trying to save money,to infringe on the education of our youth. I think, ~Ir. Speaker, it should have gotten top priority and I was suJ.1lrised when the Budget was brought down to find this happen because we have come a long way in i{ewfoundland since 1949,since I came to this douse,in the educational field and I would hate to see any set back in it· I certainly whole-heartedly support the petition. SO}lli HON. MEl1BERS: Hear, Hear! HR.

SPEAKER: The hon. tiinister of Education. . t HR. W. 1:!0USE: Mr. Speaker, rising to speak. to the petition,r want to point out that we have not cut back the pupil - teacher ratio. The pupil - teacher ratio as the same we had, as I rnenticned speaking to a petition earlier, that we had ;~elped to go to one to twenty- five ratio and the addition of some specialists teachers in 1976, bUt now we find that we cannot do that right away because in this particular year it would have cost about 209 teachers and we could not do it across the Province so we felt we should keep a lil<.e stance across the Province.

In the meantime there are being a 128 less positions next year, i !

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 939 ~rn - 1 MR. HOUSE: a lot of these resulting from the fact that there is a serious decrease in the populations in certain areas of the Province. And consequently we were getting pressures from boards who had the one to twenty-six, who did not seem to be suffering any loss of quality of education. They compared fairly reasonable with those who had a one to twenty-five.

Now I have been meeting with the NTA groups, the NTA Conference, the NTA parent groups, and discussing this with them, and I think they are talking about quality and one of the things I want to find out that the loss of a programme or the cutback of a teacher may not necessarily mean loss of quality. There are two different things. You may have more variety, but quality education is not only related to pupil/teacher ratio. There are a lot of other factors. Now what we have said is that for next year we are going to go with the situation that we have. We do not think there will be any appreciable loss in quality.

And I cannot back that up no more than the people who say there is going to be. But we do not think there will,and if there will it will be minimal by virtue of the number of teachers who are involved and we are going to review it for the school year beginning in 1979.

And in addition to that,of course,we are setting up a task force to review the implications of declining enrollments because you cannot simply say, "Let us put in a one to twenty-five ratio and all will be well." There are some other problems that we have got to think about and the task force that we are setting up will be looking into the implications of our present regulations, Even if we had a one to twenty-five ratio in districts that have sparse populations, and of course the other implications that will be looked at also is the costs of operation to boards, because vith declining enrollments you still have the same size schools so the cost of operating is going to be just the same.

So what I am saying is that we have given our

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 939 NM - 2 MR. HOUSE: position to the board!i . We have indicated that we have no intention- I think the record of this government has been good in education. I ~~ink if you will look back in the last six years you will see some tremendous steps taken forward. We do not think this will have a drastic effect and we will be reviewing it in the 1979 year.

For the benefit of the members who want to see what is going into the classrooms, rather thantyou know,what is going to be for administration, we mentioned there are 7,865 people, teachers 1in the schools in the Province and they are teaching 154,000 pupils. Apart from the principals of schools, our breakdown is there are 134 supervisors, and 32 superintendents and that is not a great proportion. I would consider that - that is what we are giving anyway from the department -consider that not to be over ambitious. I thought that we could have more than that. HR.

NEARY: Would the minister tell us, how many principals, assistant principals, administrative staff and all that sort of thing? HR. HOUSE: The principals are supposed to be part of the teaching staff. HR. NEARY: Even though they do not teach. MR.. HOUSE: In a lot of cases they do. As a matter of fact, in my district, when I was a superintendanti insisted that every principal do some teaching. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. }!R. J. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I was not going to rise on this because many of the things that were being said have been said before.

But not wishing to debate, and I will not debate, but I must say that the minister when he talks about the quality of education not suffering, I want to draw attention - first of all one thing that we forget, is if a school has declining enrollment and they lose ~Nenty-five students or twenty-six students and they lose

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 939 NU - 3 MR. J. HODDER:. one teacher, that means hot that twenty-five students dropped out of a grade seven class and therefore they dropped a grade seven teacher, it is not as simple as that. The~e might have been one student from about thirty different classes in that particular school. The other point is that the programmes - now the hon. member for Terra Nova (Hr. Lush) a few minutes ago was !:alking about the high school~but I think the most dramatic example that ~an be shown as to where the q~ity of education is suffering is in the primary and elCl!lentary sc!lools.

ADd I talked to a principal and a teacher of a grade five class which at the present time has seventy students. Now that class is divided into three groups, seventy students, three groups. We will look at just one aspect and it will only take 111e a second. One particular class, we will call it "A" class as an example, has thirty students at the present time. That particular class has an enriched programme of reading because the children

April 13, 1978 Tape 940 PK - 1 Mr. Hodder: in that particular class came to school with educational type background whereby they did not need the same type of reading so they are having an enriched programme. The middle class with twenty-three students will have a more basic programme, the Nelson series where they do more of technical parts of reading. The third class in that particular school had seventeen students, now these are the students from the disadvantaged classes.

Now next year,because that school is being cut back by two teachers,instead of having A, B, and C class or the three classes they will only have two. Now, Mr. Speaker, who loses? The students that lose in that particular school are going to be the disadvantaged children, because the middle group will get through, and the ones with exceptional ability will get through. But the ones who are going to suffer are those students in that reading programme who came from educational disadvantaged backgrounds. And that, Mr.

Speaker, sums up to me that because of teacher cut backs in that particular school, therefore the quality of education is suffering in that school, and therefore disadvantaged students in that school are being thrown aside and said, Buddy, fend as you can, you are thrown in with all of the rest, and we have no special help for you. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, as a former schoolteacher I cannot help but to rise to support this petition presented by my colleague of a former party, and of course, a colleague of this present Opposition party(Mr.

R. Moores). Mr. Speaker,we talk about the quality of education, Now I happen to have a voung fellow who is going to school this year in Kindergarten. One week he goes in in the morning, and the next week he is in just in the afternoon. Mr. Speaker, out in the district of Ferryland, which is represented by the President of the P.C. Party, they are going to lose a couple of teachers out there next year, and the consequence will be that where this year a primary

April 13, 1978 Tape 940 PK - 2 Mr.

Callan: teacher has a kindergarten class in the morninf, and then another kindergarten class in the afternoon, as I was just describing,which is happening in my own community, what is going to have to happen in that particular school system next year is that the kindergarten students will not be given the privilege of going to school in the morning one week, and in the afternoon the next, say thirteen students, thirteen little boys and girls aged five and six years old; thirteen,which is a fair size class anyway for kindergarten, and a half a day each week is a lot better for them than a full day, a full day as opposed to a half a day.

As I said,out in the district of Ferryland what is going to happen next year is this,that that primary teacher is going to have to have all the students, twenty-six students, starting in the morning class and is going to have to end up teaching Grade I in the afternoon. So if this is not interferring with the quality of education, Mr. Speaker, I do not know how else you could describe it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

CALLAN: When a teacher has to give up the position where thirteen students in the morning, and then the second half of the class~ the other thirteen or twelve or thirteen in the afternoon, when they have to be all lumped together to attend school all the time in the morning so that that teacher can be made available to teach another g~ade in the afternoon session, if that is not an example of interferring with the quality of education then I do not know. Mr.

Speaker, I remember twenty years ago when I went and taught school for the first time in a little community that is represented now by the Minister of Health, a community that got pavement last Summer, it is only a small community, but anyway, Mr. Speaker, in that school in Benton I taught all classes,Kindergarten to Grade IX inclusive.There were two students in Grade IX who wrote the public exam, and both passed, but, Mr. Speaker, I am wondering how the quality of the education of the other grades faired ~ecause I was so anxious to get a couple of public examinations students through. . ' ~ t· • !\ • I

April 13, 1978 Tape 940 PK - 3 Mr. Callan: I went up to the system, Mr. Speaker, and finally I ended up in a high school doing subject teaching fifteen years ago in a school on New World Island which I had the occasion

April 13,1978 Tape No. 941 AH-1 t1R.cALLAN: to visit the first week in December of last Fall. And, Mr. Speaker, when 1 ended up in that high school doing subject teaching I vowed never to go back into the other system any more, because obviously subject teaching in a large high school is the opportunit y that every student should have because that is ~There the quality of education is best. So, Mr. Speaker, anybody who thinks that reducing the number of teachers in our Province does not interfere with tl.e quality of education are not examining all the facts. Mr. Speaker, I support the petition. MR..

SPEAKER: Hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR.F.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, 1 would just like to take a few seconds of the House to support the petition presented by my colleague representing the district of Carbonear (Mr. Moores),Sir, I think the best way 1 can support the petition is to tell a story,as sort of an analogy to the situation here, about a proud mother who was looking at her son marching off to war with this great army,and her son was out of step with the rest of the army marching dow"'l. the main road.

And she said "Look at my wonderful Johnny!Row come all the rest of the army are out of step?" And this is exactly the situation that the ~tinister of Education is in today. Every significant organizational group in education are indicating to the minister that the step taken by the government is going to downgrade the quality of education in this Province. And the minister, Sir, I would submit,is the only one who says that it is not and in that sense, Sir, the Minister of Education is like young Johnny • P RESENTL~G REPORTS BY STANDUG AND SPECIAL COMM1TTES 1-!R. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Social Services. HR.

BRETT: ~. Speaker, 1 wish to table the Social Assistance

April 13,1978 Tape No. 941 AH-2 HR. BRETT: Regulations and the Child Welfare Regulations for 1977. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: Ron. Minister of Health. DR COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question No. 53 in the name of the bon. member for LaPoile(Mr.Neary). He asked information with regard to the number of dentists recruited outside Newfoundland for the calendar year 1977. The number is seven, seven dentists. He also asked the number of visits made overseas by recruiting teams and the countries visited.

The answer to that is nil. lie also asked the names of the personnel of the Department of Health who visited. And of course that is not applicable. Mr. Speaker, before I sit down, Your Honouroften has the opportunity to welcome visitors to the ~alleries and I would like to draw the House's attention to the fact that Mr. Terry Hart, the :'lews Director of CKGA and CK~ in Central Newfoundland,is in the ~ress Gallery today. SOME HON. NEMBERS; Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile . NR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we are very concerned, Sir, about the Ministerial Statement that was made the other day by the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture in connection with the spray programme for the spruce budworm. I have one or two questions I want to put to che minister and I believe my colleague would like to ask a number of supplementary questions because of tue vagueness of the Minis~erial Statement and the rationale behind it. I would like first of all, Sir, to start off by asking the minister if the government considered the alternative?

Did the government~for instance,consider a crash reforestation programme, a crash programme to cut the wood, stockpile it if necessary, open up the Linerboard mill to use the wood in the Linerboard mill, to get assistance from the Government of Canada to 1- . 'j !,_ r . r ll ~ I

April 13,1978 Tape No. 941 AH-3 1-IR, NEARY: build roads so t;he wood could be cut - that is the wood ef fec .ted by the spruce budwo~ ""' it the minister and the government have looked at the alternatives before making up their mind to get into using chemical to try and get rid of the .spruc;e bud worm? MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HR. HAYNAR.D: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we have looked at all the alternatives, And I mig~t say before I answer specifically the hon. member's question that I heard him say on radio yest~rday mo;uing that it was ridiculous that we bad not - I admitted that we bad not checked with Nova Scotia autborities before making the decision on the spraying programme.And I did not say that in rhe House. I said in answer to a specific question from the Leader of the Opposition that we had consulted with Nova Scotia as with all other provinces, What I did i I I .,

April 13, 1978, Tape 942, Page ~ -- apb MR. MAYNARD: say was that I was not privy to the Cabinet position that was made in Nova Scotia, and that is for obvious reasons, Mr. Speaker, I do not attend cabinet meetings in Nova Scotia and I have no idea why they made the decision they did, neither-should I. As far as reforestation is concerned we started in 1974, after the Forest Management Taxation Act was passed through this Legislature, a programme of forest management in this Province. It was the first time in history that there had ever been a forest management programme.

A part of that programme was reforestation. Now, Mr. Speaker, you do not bring into being a programme of reforestation overnight, it takes some time, a number of years to develop a nursery, to get the seedlings, to plant in various areas, to do thinning, reseeding, fertilization or whatever. But we are into an extensive programme of reforestation and that, as far as the budworm infestation is concerned, and as far as any other infestations are concerned, or diseases that may strike our forest, is our long-term outlook. We are looking at aerial application of insecticides only on a short-term basis.

Our long-term prospect is to build up through reforestation and management techniques a forest that is immune, if at all possible -which I doubt very much - but as immune as possible to insect and disease attacks. So the budworm thing, the spraying is a short-term programme which we hope to combat by a long-term programme of forest management which we are in the process of doing now, and had started in 1974. MR. SPEAKER: questioner. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. The original Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman

Apri·l 13 r l978 r Tape 9.42, Pac;Je. 2 "'"" apb MR. NEARY: did not answer the s.econd part of my question about cutting the wood that is affected by the spruce budworm. Will there oe an all-out attempt this year to cut the timber, especia,lly the timber that is near the Stephenville Linerboard mill, to cut that wood and either stockpile it, export it,or use it in the paper mills,or open up the Linerboard mill and use the wood? How much of the wood will be cut?

And has the minister approached Ottawa to get any assistance to try and salvage this wood that will be lost to Newfoundland forever unless it is cut this year? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Okay. Mr. Speaker, in my statement a few days ago, a couple of days ago, I indicated we had signed agreements with the two paper companies whereby they would harvest a minimum of 260,000 cords per year of bug-killed timber.

That, as I understand it - and I really cannot give the reasons because I am not an engineering technician or anything like that - but as I understand it, is as much as they can take if they want to keep the quality of paper. The Linerboard mill if it were operating would be able to take a certain amount. It would probably increase to another 100,000 or lSO,OOO cords per year. The hon. gentleman from Stephenville (Mr.

McNeil) mentioned in his speech the other night that linerboard could use anything which is a totally ridiculous statement, because Linerboard cannot be made out of anything, it has to have a certain amount, and a significant amount, of quality wood. There is no question about it, that if Linerboard were operating we would be able to harvest more of the bug-killed timber, but the buc;J-killed timber would not be able to supply linerboard

Ap;r;il .13, .1978, Tape 942, Pa~Je 3 ""- a);lb MR. MAYNARD: itself. Md that is not the only problem with linerboard. · Now as ta~ as the federal government is concerned,we discussed with~. cullen, the Min:tster of Manfl_9wer and Immigration - r am not sure what the title is. MR. NEARY: Manpower and emploYlllent. MR. MAYNJ\IU): Manpower and employi11ent? SOME HON. MeMBERS : Oh, oh!· MR. MAYNARD: _ Okay, toss it up and either way it all comes down the same thing. A few months ago, early in 1978, the possibility of diverting canada Work~s funds into

April 13, 1978 Tape ~o. 943 Nli - 1 MR. ~IAYNARD: make work programmes such as thinning, reseeding, general forest management. Mr. Cullen has agreed to divert some of the Canada Works funds into that sort of project. Our officials and the Canada Works, or the Employment and Immigration officials in Ottawa are now working on the details and I would assume, based on Hr. Cullen's assurance, that by this Summer we will have extra number of dollars, and I cannot say how much it is at this point in time because Mr.

Cullen has not given us a definite figure, but we will have extra number of dollars to add on to our make work projects in general forest ~nagement. I hope I have not missed any of the question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. gentleman for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the same minister but it specifically concerns the spray programme as announced. Government has chosen to go '·lith the insecticide Aminocarb. In the report, the Report on the Spruce Budworm Committee, chaired by Dr. Randell, Dr.

Randell's Committee recommended a~ainst the use of Aminocarb and I will read, with the Speaker's permission, verbatim, and I will read it slowly. Here is what Dr. Reynold's says. "In general there is little information available relating to the long-term effect of Aminocarb on man or other animals. Thus we agree with recent statements, that the effect of an insecticide on non-target organisms and the potential for environmental harm be examined as fully as possible before the insecticide is used operationally. This principle applies to the chemical Aminocarb;' or Hatacil is referred to. MR.

RIDEOUT: That is the report on which the minister based his decision. :·rn.. FLIGHT: It is the Report of the Spruce Budworm Committee, the recommendation. Hy question is for the minister to indicate to the House how it is that he chooses to use a chemical, }~tacil, or Aminocarb, t

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 943 NH - 2 MR. FLIGHT: that was totally rejected, or he was advised against by the Committee that he set up to advise government on the spray programme and the choice of chemcials. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! A good question. MR. MAYNARD: 1vell, first of all, Mr. Speaker, the han. member is twisting the words of the Committee because the chemical Matacil or Aminocarb was not totally rejected by the Committee. They suggested that we use Fenitrothion and if the han. member would kindly check with Dr.

Randell, who was ~na±rman of the Committee, he will tell you- and I am not going to put words in his mouth ~ but he will tell you that that was because the Committee was not aware that Aminocarb was registered in Canada. Now, Mr. Chairman, to answer specifically the question, which I answered , I believe,yesterday, with regards to !1atacil or Aminocarb. We have checked, and we have gone through the documentation and I cannot table it in the House, it is a stack about four feet high, a documentation on Aminocarb that has been registered with the Canada Department of Agriculture.

And in case the han. gentleman was not listening yesterday, I will read out again the legislation applicable in Canada, that has to be recognized before any chemical is registered. ~umber one - The Pest Control Products Act. Number two - The Food and Drug Act. l1R. FLIGHT: We heard all of that yesterday. NR. l:!AYNARD: Okay, I will repeat it just in case hon. gentlemen did not hear it. Number three - The Environmental Contaminants Act. Number four - The Fisheries Act. Number five - The Migratory Birds Convention Act. Number six - The Ocean Dumping Control Act. Number seven - The Canada Water Act. Number eight -

April 13, 1978 Tape 944 EC - 1 HR. MAYNARD: the Northern Inlands Water Act and the Water Pollution Prevention Act. l1R. S H!HONS: We know that, we are smart. 1-le are not - MR . MAYNARD: If the bon. the member for Bay d'Espoir knows all that well then he does not have to sit in the House and listen, Mr. Speaker, ~ hen I am answering a question. MR. F. ROWE: 1-lhyminus the minister's salary then1 MR. MAYNARD: And the minister got thirty-seven cents after taxes were taken out yesterday. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MAYNARD: So I went back to the administrative officer of the department and I said, 'Would you split it up into fifty-two digitals please1' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MAYNARD: But in case all of those acts are not applicable to the chemical Matacil or Aminocarb, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of committees that scrutinize this chemical.

One is the federal Inter-departmental Committee on Pesticides; another is the Canada Committee on Pesticides Use in Agriculture, which includes federal/ provincial university and industry; another is the Canada Weed Committee; another is the National Research Council Associate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry Aviation; there is another one, the National Research Council Associate Committee on Scientific Criteria for Environmental Quality; there is another one, the Canadian Association of Pesticide Control; there is another one, the Federal Association of Pesticide Control Official -

April 13, 1978 Tape 944 EC - 2 MR. MAYNARD: I am answering the question, Mr. Speaker . MR. SIMMONS: H'ith vulgar language. MR. F. B. ROWE: Pesticides. MR. PECKFORD: Yes, professor. }!R . MAYNARD : I will not comment on that. In any case, Mr. Speaker, after all of that, what I am suggesting as an answer to the bon. gentleman's questio~ and any subsequent questions he may bring up, is that we have checked it very thoroughly, we have done a lot of study on it, and there is no evidence that we can find where Matacil or Aminocarb is harmful to human health or animal or aquatic life. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Apparently, practically everybody is wishing a supplementary as I understand it. The hon. the member for Burin - Placentia Vest (Mr. Canning) is on a different line, in fact. One further supplementary from the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. I think all of the others are on supplementaries except for Burin - Placentia West. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, with your indulgence, this topic, number one, is very topical and it is going to become an issue. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: We are discussing a very important issue here, Mr. Speaker.

We are discussing the health of the people who live within the spray area, and the question, Mr. Speaker, is this; Will the minister confirm to the House that the only evidence,based on all the reports of the various agencies that 'h-e-has named, the seven federal agencies that exist in Canada today, is the knowledge that Aminocarb '­• • r

April 13, 1978 Tape 944 EC - 3 MR. FLIGHT: will kill budworm. There is no experimentation done to determine what else Aminocarb can or will kill either in human or the total ecology. There has not been extensive experimentation done that would advise anybody as to the end result of using Aminocarb in the atmosphere. The results of that kind of experimentation is not available, and all we know is that it kills spruce budworm.

We do not know what other risk there is to the total ecology 1 and that is the reason why Professor Randell refused and pointed out in black and white t6 the minister that he recommended that further experimentation be done. It is a very dangerous situation we are in here, Mr.Speaker. -~·iR. RIDEOUT: - --.- - . Newfoundlanders are going to be g;inea P.igs. MR. MAYNARD: ~r. Speaker, the han. gentleman has just made a statement - he has not asked a question- ~e has made a statement which is based on a number of false assu.mptions.

The suggestion that the chemical Matacil is dangerous to human health means that the people who I'· administer the Food and Drug Act on the federal level are I. F I. idiots, because it has been registered by the Food and Drug Act, it has been registered by the Federal

April 13, 1978 Tape 945 PK - 1 Mr. Maynard: Fisheries Act, it has been registered by the Canada Drinking Water Standards. MR. FLIGHT: MR. MAYNARD: MR. NEARY: MR. MAYNARD: United States. MR. NEARY: MR. MAYNARD: It was banned in the United States. And it would not - it is not, Mr. Speaker, - I was registered in the United States last week. That is a falacy. It is not banned in the I was registered last week in the United States - It was never registered until last week or until two or three weeks ago in the United States. But - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, that is misleading. The chemical Matacil was never banned in the United States. MR. NEARY: It was only registered last week. NR. MAYNARD: Fine, Mr. Speaker. It was only registered last week, but it was never banned. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible). MR. MAYNARD: I mean to say that the chemical is banned means that it has been on the market and is taken off. It has never been on the market in the United States. Matacil in Canada has been in the experimental stages since 1965. MR. FLIGHT: Only on the budworm. MR. SIMMONS: What you are saying is it never had a chance to be banned 7 it was not on the market. MR.

MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, that is such a ridiculous statement. Only on the budworm1 that means that all of the people in Ottawa who - '30!':": ~cON. HEHBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MAYNARD: - control pesticides and who administer the Acts, The Environmental And Canada Water Safety Drinking Standards and all this sort of thing, that is saying that the only thing that they have to concern themselves about is budworm. to be self-evident. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! That is so ridiculou~ as

April 13, 1978 Tape 945 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: I will recognize a supplementary, the hon. the member for Eagle River, MR. STRACHAN: On the same subject, Mr.

Speaker, could the minister tell us in view of the fact that in the last twenty-five years in New Brunsw±ck spraying - it has taken twenty-five years of spraying in New Brunswick, since 1952, it cost $100 million- and in view of the fact that, for instance, the State of Maine has been told that the federal funds will be cut off for spraying, where it has been in progress for twenty-three years because they are making no headway ancf it is getting too expensive, could the minister indicate whether he has undertaken to consult with the Nova Scotia Cabinet or the minister there in Nova Scotia, at the political level, to decide exactly where we are going before we get into this kind of thing,and end up in a situation such as New Brunswick is in, in which $100 million may have to be spent down the road?

And certainly in view of the fact that the egg mass counts last year in New Brunswick went up by 40 per cent after twenty-five years of spraying,$100 million of money into it, this spray programme showed nothing last year but a 40 per cent increase in egg mass count,

whereas Nova Scotia was a decrease. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Okay, Mr, Speaker, first of all on the consultation bit between the different provinces; I explained that a couple of days ago that there is at this time, and it only started in 1977 admittedly, an Eastern Spruce Budworm Advisory Council which includes the State of Maine, plus the five Eastern provinces of Canada, and the two federal governments, the U.S.

Federal Government, and the Canadian Federal Government, which exchanges information, and exchanges all documentation that may be made available in any jurisdiction, and analyzes it. In regard to the decision by the State of Maine to phase out their chemical insecticide programme by 1981. The statement by the State of Maine, if the hon. gentleman would read carefully, says that government involvement will be phased out by 1981. But

April 13, 1978 Tape 945 PK - 3 Mr. Maynard: private industry can still go ahead. Now the fact is that a lot of the Northern part of the State of Maine is private wood lots. These people can still go ahead with spraying programmes. New Brunswick started out twenty-eight vears ago in trying to combat the budworm. It is true that you cannot eliminate the budworm

April 13, 1978 Tape 946 DW - 1 HR.

MAYNARD: by aerial spray and we have never suggest- ed that it is an ultimate solution to the budworm problem. l~e k."1.ow and we realize the only thing that happens with an aerial application of insecticide is that it gives the tree one more year of life.we t~el that in this Province in certain areas that that is ab~olutely necessary. we know at this point in time there is no scientific or technical evidence that the budworm ean be eliminated. ~e feel pretty sure that two or three years down the road with tile things that are coming on tb.e mai::ket nc1il,in the laboratory stage,that there may be biologicalcontrols that will eliminate the budworm.

MR. FLIGHT: :t-JR. MAYNARD~ What evidence do you have to support that? Well, okay! We used one biological contr~l last year in an experimental stage called VT,and please do net ask me to pronounce the words that go after the letters. It is very effective.Thf problem is that it is in very limited supply in the laboratory stage, number one.

The number two problem is that the dispersal equipment on aircraft,and it has to be applied aerially, the di~persal equipment has not been refined to the point where you can apply it~In other words, the normal type of nozzles on the wing of an aircraft which spews out fuel and a chemical will clog up with VT. So that has to be worked out~ ·But that is only a year or so down the road when that sort of thing will be worked out. There are other biological agents chat are coming on stream which are proven in the laboratory to be effective,they just have to be translated into field operations, Jkay?

So we are confident 'that within two or three years we will have something that is more effective on the budworm and has less danger than we already i1ave, environmentally. MR. RIDEOUT: NR. SI'.t;AKER: Bay, a supplementary. HR. RIDEOUT: to the same minister. A suprlementary. The hen. member for Baie Verte -White Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The question is The. minister in his ministerial statement a day or so ago laid great emphasis on the buffelf zones around spray areas, a mile and a half at least from water supplies and other things of that naturP..

It is my understanding that 70 per cent of the spray sprayed out in tile aerial spray process never reaches the areas that it was intended to

April 13 , 1978 Tape 946 DW - 2 HR. RIDEOUT : reach-!n view of that,would the minister tell the House what is the point of those buffer zones and what protection we have for water supply sources in parks and other areas that were never intended to be sprayed in the beginning. MR. NEARY: in the woods when spraying. MR . SPEAKER: The ~ on. mini ster. :1-!R.. MAWAR.D : Well, the buffer zones, Mr. Speaker, have been worked out on the basis of knowledge that we have and the statement that 70 per cent never reaches the trees is,obviously 1 totally ridiculous and has no foundation, in fact, whatsoever. MR.

NEARY: Oh, no! MR. !U..YctAR.D: Number one, ¥~. Speaker, if you spray something out of an aircraft unless the wind is blowing very hard it has got to land within a very short distance. MR. NEARY: five mile an hour wind lo ten miles an hour. The maximum wind factor that can be used in spraying applications is 5 mile per hour. ~ow I suggest to you f I that it is very unlikely f: I SOME liON • MEMBERS : Oh, Oh! ~iR.. ~!A YHAR.D : - that that chemical is going to go up.I~ is not going to defy totally the laws of gravity but be that as it may. MR. SIMHONS: Not unless. HR.

MAYNARD: In tests that have been taken.in field tests experfmental tests; it has shown that a two mile buffer zone for a large aircraft is adequate to eliminate practically all of the drift that might occur. As far as small aircraft are concerned a half mile is necessary because they are only flying about fifty feet above the trees.rhis ·has been worked out . .Lt is no magic formula,it is something that we have determined on the basis of experiments and ex~.erience in other provinces; in other jurisdictions, in otner states of il:astern areas.

April 13,1978 Tape No. 947 AH-1 :1R. SPEAKER: I will allow a final supplementary. .MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary. :1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay d'Verde. Then I will ·recognize tLe han. member for Burin-Placentia r~est, on a ne'~ question, the bon. member for Fogo and the han. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir, if there is time. MR.F.ROWE: Mr. Speaker a supplementary.

Sir, in view of the fact that with a five mile per hour wind you only have fifty per cent of the spray landing on target,and with a ten mile per hour wind none lands on target,according to a noted authorit~and in view of the fact that the minister stated yesterday that this Aminocarb is more toxic than the other chemical that was to be used and the lifespan is only three years and it is a well-known ecological principle that a pesticide once used over a long period of time the animal mutates and mutation occurs and it can survive _. can the minister indicate specifically what studies have been done and what evidence the minister has that the by-products,for example, the by-products of the breakdown- I mean if Aminocarb only has a life span of three years 1 has the minister any indication of the nature of the by-products for the breakdown of that chemical and whether or not they themselves are not dangerous to tile natural ecology of the area that is being sprayed or missed.where the target is being missed?

And also, is there any evidence to indicate that in fact mutations do occur and that is the reason why the spray is not working in the Province of New Brunswick? NR. W.N. ROWE: Super budworm. HR. F. ROWE: We could end up with a super budworm. HR. SPEAKER: The han. }linister of Forestry and Agriculture. ~1R. ~IAYNARD: weii,oov~Lusly, Mr.

Speaker, if we had any evidence whatsoever,and we have researched a lot of material- I cannot say that I have researched all the material myself as we have stacks and stacks of material down in the department on the Aminocarb by ~he trade name :1atacil.- there is no evidence that we can find of any mutations occurring in any living organism, If there were ' - '

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 947 .IH - 2 ~lR. HAYNARD: we would not use it. I want to make it quite clear, Mr. Speaker, that I live in this province too and so do the other members of government who have made this decision~ and so do the other members of the department wno have made the decision. It should be quite obvious to the general public that we are not anxious to spray a chemical over our children that is going to damage their future life. I mean,it is not something that you get up in the morning and say, Okay I will do this before I have a cup of coffee. It takes a fair amount of deciding.

We have not found any evidence in the documentation that has been provided on Aminocarb to show us that there is any fear of danger and therefore we have gone ahead to make the decision on Hatacil. Now, on the breakdown capabilities: As the hon. gentleman is well aware any chemical has a half-life of a certain number of days. As I understand it Aminocarb has a half-life of about three days. Now there is no question about it that the next half-life is three days and the next half-life is three days and it may go on for infinity before it breaks down completely.

But what we have found is that ~~tacil breaks down so much faster than Fenitrothion. The residue in the soil, as in the water, has such a shortened length of time that it is much more- let us say it is less violent on aquatic or marine insects or marine life and this is why we have been able to decide on Matacil as opposed to Fenitrothion which has been shown to have a longer breakdown period, a longer half-life and has been shown to occur again at some future time in the soil. ,J ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry I cannot recognize other hen. members - 1 who have been endeavouring to get in.

On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole,on Supply Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Apr il 13 , 1978 Tape o . 948 NM- l MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please: 1501-01. The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d 'Espoir. MR. SU1!.10NS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I presume, ~1r. Chairman, we are still on 1501-0l. We are. Yes, the minister's salary. Mr. Chairman, I was just reflecting on the comments made by the Minister of Forestry, the thirty-seven cents. I suppose this one will go down in history, in Woolco fashion, the thirty-seven cent day in the House of Assembly. dR. NEARY: Bargain day. MR.

SOOIDNS: I did not know you could go below $1.00, but he demonstrated it not only in ~s answer but in his answers to the questions this afternoon, Mr. Chairman, thirty-.seven cents. Mr. Chairman, it is a fairly noisy House but I have lots of time. .!R. NEARY: Could we have order in the House, Ur. Chairman? MR . SHIMONS: Mr. Chairman, the - MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. HR . CBAI.ru!A.~ : A point of order has come up. MR . NEARY: The hon • .gentleman, Sir, cannot speak. He cannot hardly hear himself talk.

The hon. members on the opposite side are holding meetings, kicking up all kinds of racket , lowering the decorum of the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I am not aware that the hon. member had indicated that he was having difficulty. MR. NEARY: Yes, the bon. member did, Sir. MR. S DiNONS : No, ~~. Chairman, I was just waiting but you would have t.o be stunned, Sir, not to realize that it was very difficult to speak in the Uou5e in the last few minutes. Mr. Chairman, I have a few remarks I would like to address to the subject. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). . ' !

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 948 ID1 - 2 MR. SU!MONS: God help us, Hr. Chairman: Surely God we are not going to have another afternoon of that Yahoo, the member for whatever over there, Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan). I am sick and tired of him, ~rr. Chairman, absolutely sick and tired. He yaks all the time. He never stops. HR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. HR. CHAIR..'1AN: A point of order. MR. MORGA.J.~: I was sitting here doing my work. l!R. CHAIRl~'i!: A point of order has come up. HR. MORGAN: The hon. gentleman has obviously gone berserk. HR.

CHAIR11.Ql : Order, please! A point of order has come up. HR. HICKHAN: If there is any noise coming from this side of the House I would suggest that it is not coming from a cember of the Progressive Conservative Party. NR. DOODY: On that point of order, Sir, we have some imported talent from tho: other side. We are i1aving two serious meetings i1ere. HR. C!IAIRHA.'I: Order, please! The Chair can only recognize one hon. member. The hon. House Leader , I believe,was still on his feet. MR. HICKMAN: What I was saying, ~rr. Chairman, is that the hon. the !1inister of Tourism obviously had not uttered a sound.

He was as silent as a mouse and the hon. gentleman decides to lash out at him and call him an unparliamentary name and then it turns out that lo and behold! the problem does not lie within this party at all. }!R. CHAIID!A.'I: Order, please! Perhaps it would be useful for me to make the observation that at the end of Question Period, there is a certain amount of going back and forth and the House does become a little noisy at this time, which is not to condone that, but I am afraid that it is a fact of life.

It clearly would make it a bit difficult for an hon. member who rises at that time, I would like the hon. members to pay some attention to that fact. The hon. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir.

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 948 N11 - 3 MR. UORGAN: Mr. ChairJDan, before the hon. member commences his speech. MR. Sll1MONS: }fr. ChairJDan, I have the floor • MR. .fORGAN : On a point of order, Mr. ChairJDan. MR. CllAIRMAN: A point of order has come up. MR. MORGAN: Or a point of privilege maybe. I recall a few days ago that there was a ruli;lg made by the Chair of the Bouse of Assembly, whether we were in the Committee stage or in the House stage, that the word'Yahoo'was considered to be unparliamentary to be used in the Bouse. The hon. gentleman jilst used that word again.

I would ask that the Chair ask the hon. gentleman to retra~t that statement again. SOME EON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please: I think that the hon. member is correct in saying that a ruling was made that the word referred to, that is 'Yahoo; spelled I believe, Y-a-h-o- 0 , if 1 remember correctly, that this particular word was considered unparliamentary and I would ask the hon. member if he would withdraw it. MR. SIMMONS: I will withdraw without any qualification whatsoever, absolutely no qualification. I withdraw it.

I am confused and influenced, I suppose,by the - influenced by the press these la'st few days and the headline in particular that the Minister of Forestry may be replaced by a Yahoo and I was assuming there was going to be another shuffle from Tourism to Forestry. But it being unparliamentary I shall not say it and I withdraw ·-it unequivocally. There would be no point in going to Forestry anyway 'Jim' because the salary is not very high over there at the moment. j-_ I· I ~ > l ~-- 1 ' I'

April 13, 1978 Tape 949 EC - 1 MR. SIMHONS: Hr. Chairman, the other night as I was running out of time, I was about to refer to a suggestion that perhaps the government ought to take a page out of the book of the Government of Nova Scotia - the good Government of Nova Scotia.

And I was prompted to say that by some observations I have been making in travelling back and forth to Nova Scotia or more particularly, through Nova Scotia and reading the papers and talking to people up there, one gets the distinct impression, as you observe the Nova Scotia economy and observe initiatives that are taken at the government level, whether in fisheries or in their department of development or in their tourism/recreation thrust, you get the distinct impression that they honestly feel they have a commodity - and I say that in its broad context - a commodity worth selling, a Province worth promoting.

They make no apologies for their endeavours in the fishing industry, as I observed in this conference in Sydney a year ago in November. They take a very forthright approach to their tourism policy, and generally, without getting into specifics, Mr. Chairman, they generally give the appearance at least - and I believe it has some substance to back it up - give the appearance of having first of all, a sense of direction of where they want to go in terms of economic development, and secondly, Mr. Chairman, have around them the team of people that can project that kind of a thrust.

I am prompted,in particular, to say that today as a result of an editorial that I saw in one of the local papers two or three months ago. And the editorial was labeled or headed 'Learn a Lesson', and basically what it said was that this government ought to be looking at the

April 13, 1978 Tape 949 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: initiatives being taken by two other of the Atlantic provinces,in the case of the editorial, the Government of Prince Edward Island and the Government of Nova Scotia. HR. HICKMAN: know definitely at this point (inaudible) accordingly Halifax Harbour (inaudible) HR. SIHHONS: Yes, the Minister of Justice interjects that the rate in Cape Breton is 30 per cent and I do not know what that has to do with my comments except that it happens to be in the same province that I am talking about. Mr.

Chairman, I am not suggesting an overall comparison of the economic state of the two provinces. We would come off on the short end of that one except in one instance AN RON. MEMBER: The fisheries. HR. SIMMONS: No, no! In the fisheries we would come off on the short end, too. We would not come off, Mr. Speaker, on the short end in terms of resources or potential development. In terms of what we are doing we will come off short - we will come off short in every department including the fisheries. And it is there particularly, Hr. Chairman.

And I noticed this during the conference a year or so ago in Sydney that the people of Nova Scotia, the Government of Nova Scotia are literally light years ahead of our Province in terms of direction, fisheries policy, fisheries development. They know where they are going, they articulate it very well, and therein lies our two problems in the fishery - we do not know where we are going and depending who you listen to on a given da~ whether it is the Premier or the Minister of Fisheries, we l .. . '

Ap r i l 13, 1 9 7 8 Ta p e 94 9 EC - 3 ~. SIMMONS: are not articulating very well, at least we are articulating in several different directions. That is another one o£ our problems. If the Minister of Justice wants to compare unemployment rates- and it is my understanding from a very scant knowledge of Nova Scotia that Cape Breton would be the more depressed part of the Nova Scotia pro·vince - if that is the case, I will cite to him our Cape Breton and it is called Bay d'Espoir, and the percentage is not 30 per cent I will have him know, it is about 78 per cent or 80 per cent. MR.

HICKMAN: The point I am making is that the hon. gentleman is pointing to Nova Scotia as the Utopia of - ~!R . S I ~IHON S: No, Sir. MR. HICKMAN: I would also suggest that if he had been at the •eeting on the South Coast in December he would have heard the hon. Romeo LeBlanc say that for the last three years t he highest employment in any fishing area I * . ' ·~ t '·

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 950 !*I - 1 MR. HICKMAN: in Atlantic Canada, the highest ellqlloyment area was on the Burin P-eninsula. MR. S L.'WONS : Of coursel MR.. HICKMAN: Not Lunenburg. MR. SU!HONS: Of course! MR. HICKMAN: Not Glace l\ay. ~IR. SD:!MONS; Of coursel MR. RICKMAN: Not Richibucto. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, nobody disagrees, and the minister should keep in mind he is going to have t• to make his speech. I am sure he has another side of this one to put forward. I will put forward my side of it.

I do not think anything I have heard from him in the la·st ten minutes contradicts t:he overall premise that I am laying out. The employment figures he quotes for the Burin Peninsula are understandable ones, understandable. If your base position at a given t:i,)ne is lower than another base positioa, you do not need to know much mathematics to recognize very clearly that if you have an absolute rise in numbers of employed, equal to the other jurisdiction, your per·centage of rise will be greater, if you have got the lower base to begin with.

So I am not at all surpris~ that the figures for the Buri.n Pensinsula are so encouraging. Indeed I lauded that very point when I spoke here the other day on the unemployment situation on the South Coast. But what it has to do with the, as the expression goes, the price of fish in China, or what it has to do with the point I have been making I do not know. Perhaps the minister knows and perhaps he will explain it to us when he gets up. And speaking of the minister, there was somebody elSe speaking of him a few days ago. I carry around this picture now. <- f. ;. ( j r

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 950 NM - 2 HR. SIMHONS: You may have noticed I keep it with me fairly often. I had it last day and I have it again. It is a picture of the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan). It is not autographed yet but I am sure he would be glad to do so . Today he supported my idea for a select committee, a select committee of the House. I think it is an excellent idea and I am glad to have his support.

So in return I am going to support him on something. 5ecause on March the 17th., or 18th., he said, or he is quoted as saying in The Evening Telegram, "If I were starting an undertaking business, or a public relations business tomorrow I would hire 'Hr. Hickman'." And the 'Nr. Hickman' he is talking about, ~x. Chairman, is no other than the present member for Grand Bank, the ~linister of Justice, the Deputy Premier, the Government House Leader, the Miniter of Finance, the ex-President of Treasury Board, the never-to-be judge on the bench, so many titles, Hr. Chairman, but we all know who we are talking about.

He is the one, the same. "If I were starting an undertaking business," the member for Grand Falls says, "I would hire the Minister of Justice. a Is that not a beautiful touch1 Is it not also the truth? That he would obviously be the man best for the job. And why? Because, :1r. Chairman, he has had such experience in the undertaking business. Because right now, }lr. Chairman, he works for the largest undertakiug business in this Province. Right now that minister, Hr. Chairman, is employed full-time by the largest undertaking business in this Province, the largest, Mr.

Chairman, the government of this Province, the largest group of funeral directors in this Province. These gentlemen are surely digging the economic and the financial graves of tens of thousands of Newfoundlanders, and what better example, Mr. Chairman, than what is before us right now in this Committee, the estimates of the Department of Industrial Development. Hhat a frightful warping of some decent terminology, the Department of Industrial Development. They, clr. c:1.airman, are digging the graves, the graves of tens of thousands of ordinary . i

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 950 mot - 3 MR. SIMMONS: decent Newfoundlanders, who deserve a chance and are not getting it because this department, Mr. Chairman, this department, together with a number of other departments of government, have not been prepared to even g;i.ve the average Newfoundlander the time of day. I quoted an example in the House today, Mr. Chairman, where the Premier of this Province would not even bother to bring a petition, signed by many people, into the House, a petition addressing its~f to a serious matter. And Mr. Chairman, I tell you it is one of dozens of petitioos that that hon. metllber is I .I l l

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 951 RT-1 MR. SIMMONS: sitting on, and the word is going out. I am going to help publicize it for the sake of the people concerned. Do not waste your time sending a petition to the Premier, itwill never see the light of day. How is that for a Government that is supposed to care for people? What is new? Are we surprised? Are we surprised that the Premier has sat on the petitions I have talked about today? Is it any different? Is it out of character for him? Ever since he took over this Government, Mr. Chairman, he has been known to confront a problem in one of two ways, both back on.

He confronts a problem in one of two ways, both back on. First of all, he backs into the problem. He stumbles into it like he stumbled into the very monumental constitutional problem he has right now about the Minister of Forestry's salary. He stumbled into that one. MR. NEARY: Clinging onto power. MR. SIMMONS: He stumbled into that one, Mr. Chairman, and I will tell you he is going to have to do more then stumble to get out of it. I do not know if they realize yet, Hr.

Chairman, just how serious a problem they have created because they, with thirty members, could not manage to find eleven to sit here in the House despite the most efficient whipping, I use the term correctly, despite the most efficient whipping they have ever had over there; the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) is doing his job, as impossible as it is, but even with all the constant whipping he does, they cannot keep eleven guys in the House over there because it is such an unbearable thing for them. That is one of the first signs, Mr. Chairman, one of the sure signs, that a Government is on the run.

The fun is gone out of it for them. They cannot stand to face the people's House, and you cannot keep eleven in not even to support their buddy, the Minister of Forestry. MR. NEARY: They are going to brazen it out and cling onto power. MR. SIMMONS: So that is the first '~ay the Premier confronts his problem, back on, mind you, he stumbles into it. Hell he stumbled r ' if I ' ~ • !

April 13, 19 78 Tape No. 951 RT-2 MR. SU!MONS: into one this time and I would be interested to know ~ow he is going to get out of it. He can brazen it through. He has done that before. MR. NEARY: What about the Saunders affair1 I mean, how do you expect him to obse~e the constitution? MR. SIMMONS: Yes, there is a story. MR. NEARY: That is how he came to power in the first place. MR. SIMMONS: There is a story. If somebody had the information to be the biographer for this Government, what a sordid tale you would tell. What a sordid tale you would tell! MR. NEARY: A $100,000 affair. MR.

SH!MONS: But even the Saunders' affair diminishes almost into oblivion, I say to my friend from LaPoile, almost into oblivion in comparison to what happened to this Government on Tuesday. Indeed, the frightful thing today, Mr. Chairman - and I could understand my colleagues for asking as many questions as they did about the budworm problem. I '~as not at today's caucus so I just sat back and listened to the questions.

Towards the end I was intending to put a question about some other issues but I found myself, knowing that I would not be involved in the Question Period, just observing the exercise, and I sat here among a dozen or so men '~ho were asking questions on behalf of the people of Newfoundland about a very - MR. CHAIRl-'.AN: A point of order. MR. HICKMAN: The Standing Qrders set forth very clearly that the rules of relevancy apply equally in Committee as in the House sitting. I do submit that the comments by the hon. gentleman from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) are totally irrelevant as they relate to the Heading presently under debate. MR. F. ROWE: I submit that is not a point of order, Sir 0 my hon. colleague was referring to the spruce budworm which, obviously, has a direct relationship with Industrial Development as it pertains to the foresty in this Province, and any remarks that he makes and any references that he makes to the spruce bcdworm and the possibilities of it doing any damage to related industry in this Province has a direct

April 13, 1978 Tape No. 951 RT-3 MR . F . RO\-IE: relationship to this particular departmet~.t, Io,dust;-r.ial Development. I submit, Sir, that the hon. the Rous .e Leader did not submit a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I think I will rule on this ql,d.ckly because the hon. member, in actual fact, has only about thirty seconds left of his time in ~y case, but relevancy is required in Co~ttee although under the fi.rst item, i.e. salaries, a certain BIDOunt of latitude is allowed. l-1R. SIMMONS: Mr.

Chairman, I did not realize I was so near the end of my remarks so I sbal,l leave it just about there and get back to the issue I was pursuing a little later. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Kilbri .de. MR. R. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, in opening my ·remarks on the Deparbllent of Industrial Development, I think it proper to point out at th.is t:!,tne and mak.e reference that this, although it is a small deparbnent, perhaps the smallest department in the Government, is nonetheless a department of vital impor~ce. I would like, also, to extend on behalf of 't t • '

April 13, 1978 Tape 952 IB-1 MR. WELLS: all of us who have not already done so our best wishes to the new minister of this department and to hope - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: - most sincerely that he does an extremely successful job in it which I am sure he will do. It is the sort of department that does not have a direct impact on the lives of Newfoundlanders the way the Department of Health might or many of the service departments. But it is a department which if wise - HR. SI}l}lONS: What? I am sure the member does not mean what he just said. MR. WELLS: Wait.

Let the member finish his sentencE and then by all means comment. What I was saying, Mr. Chairman, is that it does net have a direct and immediate effect in the way that the Department of Health might have if an ambulance is there to go or not to g~ but whac I was about to say was that in terms of the long-term benefits to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and the people who live in it this department will probably,and has,a greater impact than any other sinqle department in the whole government. HR. SI!1MONS: It is not as easily demonstrated. MR.

WELLS: It is not as easily demonstrated and it is a long-term thing as it must be. But I would say this, that as far as I can gather and see that this particular department has,although a small staff, has a good staff and very competent people and people who would be able and I am sure are able to give excellent adVice and help to the minister in taking on this department.

Now, I think - and I have adverted to this subject many times perhaps over the years - but I think in talking about industrial development in Newfoundland we have to make a fundamental point because it determines where we are going to go in the future and particularly what kind of industry we are going to try to attract to Newfoundland. The point I want to make is this, that despite the fact we are now in Confederation nearly twenty-nine years,and despite the twenty-nine years of Confederation and the tremendous benefits that

April 13, 1978 Tape 952 MR. WELLS: it has brought to many areas of Newfoundland life and many years of the geographical areas of the Province, perhaps all areas, the unfortunate thing is that we have not seen Canadian capital come to this Province and develop it. I think I can state that as a fact. And I have said before in speeches and I think I have to say it again,as long as I am in this House I will say it, that when you look around and you take the period since Confederation where is the Canadian capital in terms IB-2 of industrial development in Newfoundland.

I have to say and I say this with a great deal of regret, that it is not here. You look at the industries which were here before Confederation that are still ongoing, Bowaters, Price which bought AND Company, you look at the mines, they are Americ.an capital for the most part,almost entirely American capital and when you look around you find that twenty-nine years later this Province has not gotten industrial development as a result of Canadian capital.

And even the development of the Upper Churchill about which there has been so much talk recently as to whether or not we got a good deal - well let us lay that question aside - but where did the capital come from to develop it? It was not Canadian capital. And when you look all around this Province no Canadian capital except for one or two small, and when I say small, relatively small ventures into the fishery. And I think we have got to recognize this in this House. I think the government has got to recognize it. I think it is one of the most fundamental points that can be made.

Because when we recognize that and if we accept it as it is so,because it is self-evident, then we have to say to ourselves, where are we going to go for capital~ What are we going to do in order to develop this Province?

Because we can say what we like about infrastructure and service industries and that sort of thing but they do not of themselves bring capital intensive development, they do not and they have not and we have got to set about - and that is the job of this department - trying to entice industry into Newfoundland whether it is relatively small industry that might employ twenty-five or thirty or fifty people or whether it is big heavy industry as it is called that will employ 3,000 or 4,000 or 5,000 people.

April 13, 1978 Tape 952 I ll- 3 MR . WELLS: Now, I have thought about this myself and thought about it over and over again because I think the future of this Province is bound up with it in a way that it is bound up with nothing else. The only thing that I can see in the iml!lediate offing to the fishery, which I am not going to talk about now and perhaps whiCh I am not really competent to talk about, but I do believe that the fishery is turned around by virtue of the 200 mile limit and I think the future of the fishery is great. llut aside from that which development will take place?

I am sure, aside from that, the only major development that I can see is industrial development based on the use of the power which is available to this Province from Labrador. And that development I would hope would be bo.th development in Labrador and development in the Island part of the Province. But I believe for reasons which I have stated in speeches earlier, it ought to come in the Island part of the Province first because it is the key to that viJ:al transmission line and tunnel which we need before we can ever reac;.h, what I would call, the take o-ff ,, ~ • i

April 13, 1978 Tape 953 EC - 1 MR. WELLS: point in terms of industrial growth in this Province. Now I will not deal with that again, I have dealt with that before in other remarks. I would like to see debate on that. I think it is the most important thing we have to debate in this Province. But when you look at industrial development, and large industrial development, I want to make the point which I have made before, and it is important enough to make again, that we cannot philosophically make a choice.

We cannot say we are going to have small development to the exclusion of big development, or big to the exclusion of small - we need both , Mr. Chairman. We need the paper mills like Price and Bowaters, we need the Linerboard revivified - taken over by new hands with new capital, new development - and I sincerely hope that you, Sir, in your department can accomplish that, but we also need other new major industrial development here and, as far as I can see, the only major asset we have in terms of enticing that development is the power which this Province is capable of generating.

But to get that power down here, the transmission line and tunnel have to come. Now the essential question, or one of the essential questions that has to be addressed is this, If we can entice industry here by massive development based on power, all of that power should be given at a subsidized rate or all of the industry that we hope to attract, whatever it might be, ought to pay its way in terms of the power that it would use in a particular development. And I think, Mr. Chairman, that we ought to make the fundamental decision that it ought to pay its way: in other words, that we ought

April 13, 1978 Tape 953 EC - 2 MR. WELLS: to get industry,if we can, here on the basis of no government guarantees to the industry itself to set up,and also that the industry would pay,for the power which it uses,a rate which would not be below cost. Now we might, in attracting an industry, have to pay a rate which is below the rate that they may have to pay elsewhere, because we have to do something to entice industry in Newfoundland, but it should under no circumstances,in my view, be below cost, and I think that is something fundameutal.

And also if there is any way that we can avoid it, and I think we should avoid it, we should not get involved in guarantees or lending to the industry itself. If we develop the Lower Churchill and if we bring power down through the transmission line and tunnel - it would have, I assume, to be done by Newfoundland Hydro - that will be at least $2 billion for both projects and it might be more now with escalating costs. So that development is going to have to be on the credit of the Province, because Newfoundland Hydro is a creature of the Province.

The only way it can be done, and it seems to me that it could never be done simply on the credit of the Province, is the underpinning would have to be a commitment of a major industry to come into the Province and set up a major plant, a major establish- ment. That would be the financial underpinning which, it seems to me,would persuade the money lenders of the world. And it seems to me that a project of this magnitude would involve them all over, both in Europe and North America. It seems to me that is the only kind of undertaking that will permit the financing to be raised for a vast undertaking of this sort.

April 13, 1978 Tape 953 EC - 3 MR. TfELLS: So I think the credit of the Province is going to be involved in the transmission line, tunnel and Lower Churchill through Newfoundland Hydro, but the real credit, the real financial underpinning, it seems to me, would have to be the new industry whatever it be that I hope can be attracted here. Now let us look at what it would mean if we were able to do the Lower Churchill with the power coming to the Province not going to be sold elsewhere into Quebec or into Ontario or into the U.S., but the power coming this way.

What would it mean to N.ewfoundland in terms of development, in terms of j cbs both short term and long term? Now this is something I think we have to consider. We are all familiar with the employment that resulted from the development of the Upper Churchil-l, and I think it is fair to say that for a period of three or four years it was one of the major economic underpinnings of the economy of the Province.

Now we have learned in Newfoundland and Labrador the hard way that construction alone is not enough, because when construction falters,as it has in the last two or three years because of national and world econoll!ic conditions, you have

April 13, 1978 Tape 954 MR. WELLS: got a vast number of trade people who are out of work and - my han, friend smiles. He must be good humoured. You have got a large number of people then out of work and we are suffering from that right now. But nonetheless,when you look on the overall industrial base,construction itself is an industry and on the short term,when you look at that aspect alone,then you would have, I would suspect, in doing the Lower Churchill .and the transmission line, there would be 5,000 or 6,000 people at least employed for a period of time.

And the interesting thing is that they would be employed not only in one part of the Province but they would be employed in Labrador, they would be employed in the area of the Straits, both the Labrador side and the Newfoundland Island side,and then coming right down through the country IB-1 or the Province until that particular transmission line hooked into the provincial grid.So that the employment would be spread right from Labrador down through the Island part of the Province and would have a maximum effect in the whole Province, and I think that is important.

It seems to me we are never going to get it until we get that major industry which is going to provide the financial underpinnings. There of course we would have two effects. We would have,one, the con