Fourth Session, 42nd Parliament

(2023) OFFICIAL REPORT

OF DEBATES

(HANSARD)

Monday, April 17, 2023

Afternoon Sitting

Issue No. 304

ISSN 1499-2175

The HTML transcript is provided for informational purposes only.

The PDF transcript remains the official digital version.

CONTENTS

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

Introduction and First Reading of Bills

Bill 25 — Electoral Districts Act

Hon. N. Sharma

Statements (Standing Order 25B)

Drug toxicity crisis and commemoration event

H. Yao

STEM education and school robotics programs

K. Kirkpatrick

B.C. Book Day

R. Russell

SUCCESS society 50th anniversary and fundraising gala

T. Wat

Religious and cultural celebrations

H. Sandhu

Drug toxicity crisis and addiction recovery

E. Sturko

Oral Questions

Crime in communities and action on community safety

K. Falcon

Hon. D. Eby

Public safety on transit systems

T. Halford

Hon. M. Farnworth

Protection of old-growth forests and logging in Kwakiutl territory

A. Olsen

Hon. B. Ralston

Mental health crisis teams and public safety on transit systems

E. Sturko

Hon. J. Whiteside

Mental health crisis response and community safety

E. Sturko

Hon. M. Farnworth

Action on community safety and police officer vacancies

T. Stone

Hon. M. Farnworth

Crime in communities and action on community safety

S. Bond

Hon. M. Farnworth

Petitions

P. Milobar

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Housing

Hon. R. Kahlon

K. Kirkpatrick

Private Members’ Motions

Motion 3 — COVID-19 response and protests (continued)

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure

Hon. R. Fleming

T. Halford

C. Oakes

J. Tegart

A. Olsen

Proceedings in the Birch Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture and Food (continued)

J. Rustad

Hon. P. Alexis

I. Paton

Estimates: Ministry of Jobs, Economic Development and Innovation

Hon. B. Bailey

T. Stone

MONDAY, APRIL 17, 2023

The House met at 1:34 p.m.

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

H. Yao: I would like to take a moment to welcome Brenda Plant from Turning

Point. She has over 35 years of experience in the non-profit sector,

specializing in addiction, mental health and domestic violence. She has also

been the executive director for Turning Point since 2005, a recipient of the

Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal and also honoured with the Val

Anderson Humanitarian Award.

I’m asking the chamber here to welcome her, as she is observing the

discussion in committee today.

K. Kirkpatrick: With the fear of repeating another member, I would also like to

welcome Brenda Plant into the House today. She is a figure on the North

Shore at the Turning Point recovery house, gave me a wonderful tour there.

Does amazing work.

[1:35 p.m.]

Thank you so much. I was so pleased to hear that you would be here

today. Thank you for all the work you do on the North Shore and other places

in addictions and recovery.

Hon. J. Whiteside: Just to follow along, Brenda, you’re getting a lot of love from here

today. But it’s all well deserved.

I just want to join in to say that Brenda and I have had a chance to

talk a couple of times since I was appointed Minister of Mental Health and

Addictions. We had a lunch meeting today.

The work that Brenda Plant not only does as executive director of

Turning Point, a very important partner in the care that our health system

provides for people with mental health and addictions issues, but also the

work that she leads provincially in the recovery sector as part of BCARA is

very, very important.

Thank you so much for everything that you can do. I really am very

much looking forward to all of the good work that we’re going to do

together.

Would the House please join us all in making Brenda

welcome.

Hon. N. Cullen: I’d like to introduce a friend of mine, as well as a councillor on

Smithers council in the northwest, where I live. He’s temporarily, I

believe, relocated with his family here to Victoria and is visiting today.

Greg Brown has been a long and fierce advocate of the northwest

environmental causes and reconciliation.

Would the House please join me in making him feel welcome.

M. Elmore: It’s my mother’s birthday today, so I’d like to wish her a very happy

birthday. My mom taught me the most important lesson in life: don’t let

anyone step on you.

I have a short poem for her, by Sanober Khan: “My mother is pure

radiance. She is the sun I can touch and kiss and hold without getting

burnt.”

My mom is 86 years young today, so I ask everybody to please join me

in wishing her a very happy birthday. I love you.

D. Davies: I’d just like to introduce a couple of guests of mine that are

visiting us today from Abbotsford. I know I don’t represent the riding of

Abbotsford, but I did do the good thing and introduce them to their MLA, the

member for Abbotsford West.

A good friend of mine who has been up in Fort St. John, worked up

there for a number of years and who, inciden­tally, I actually met

first time here in Victoria back in 1990 — I’m that old, maybe not as old as

some, but anyway — at the Festival of the Arts. We’ve stayed in touch ever

since.

Would the House please make my good friend Chris; his wife, Simone;

and their son Kaden — the Lambs — feel welcome.

S. Chant: We have a guest on the floor this afternoon, my Member of Parliament.

Mr. Terry Beech is the — I’m hoping I get this right — Burnaby North–Seymour

Member of Parliament and is here to watch us in our proceedings.

He’s done a lot to support our area. I’m very glad to see him here. I

understand that his daughters are here, somewhere up there. So if everybody

could make Minister Beech and his family very welcome, that would be great.

Thank you so much.

Hon. A. Kang: I see in the gallery today we have Mayor Silas White, mayor of

Gibsons.

I want to thank local governments for working very hard in serving

their communities with passion, and I look to meeting with the mayor in the

days to come and meeting him in his community.

Please, would the House make him feel very welcome.

Hon. L. Popham: It’s an incredible day in this Legislature today. It’s B.C. Book Day.

We have four great guests who have joined us in the galleries: Matea Kulic,

executive director of books B.C.; Karen Green of Anvil Press; Melissa Pitts

of UBC Press; and Teddy Anderson, Medicine Wheel Publishing.

Thank you for joining us.

[1:40 p.m.]

T. Stone: I would like to introduce a few special guests who are with us here

today. Actually, as everyone knows, Jason Goertzen is the spiritual care

provider for the Legislature. Well, he is hosting his sisters-in-law, Alicia

Van Vloten and Anne Storkan. I believe they had lunch earlier today. They’re

now in the gallery to watch QP.

Alicia is a retired speech pathologist and Anne is a retired teacher.

They’re both from Kamloops, from school district 73. They’re enjoying their

retirement years, travelling, hiking and cycling in Kamloops and beyond. I

would ask the House that they please make both Alicia and Anne feel very,

very welcome here in British Columbia’s Legislature today.

Introduction and

First Reading of Bills

BILL 25 — ELECTORAL DISTRICTS ACT

Hon. N. Sharma presented a message from Her Honour the

Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Electoral Districts Act.

Hon. N. Sharma: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time

now.

I’m pleased to introduce the Electoral Districts Act. I do so

pursuant to

section 14 of the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, which

requires that if the Legislative Assembly, by resolution, approves the

proposals contained in the final report of the Electoral Boundaries

Commission, government must introduce a bill to give effect to that

resolution during the same session of the Legislature. We have approved

such a resolution on April 6. Accordingly, this bill would implement,

without amendment, the proposals of the 2022 Electoral Boundaries

Commission.

The bill would create 93 electoral districts in the province, an

increase of six districts from the current 87, with the areas,

boundaries and names as recommended by the commission. The new Electoral

Districts Act would come into force on the day the 42nd parliament is

dissolved before the scheduled 2024 provincial general

election.

Deputy Speaker: The question is first reading of the bill.

Motion approved.

Hon. N. Sharma: I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second

reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 25, Electoral Districts Act, introduced, read a first time and

ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting of the House after today.

Statements

(Standing Order 25B)

DRUG TOXICITY CRISIS

AND COMMEMORATION

EVENT

H. Yao: Last Friday Moms Stop the Harm, supported by the Tablotney family,

hosted a gathering on the grounds of Richmond Cultural Centre. The

gathering was to commemorate April 14, 2016, the day B.C. declared the

overdose crisis a public health emergency. Moms Stop the Harm placed

2,272 purple flags on the field, each for a life lost last

year.

From Members of Parliament to school trustees, different levels of

government representatives in Richmond were present. I was also joined

by the member representing Richmond North Centre and the member

representing Richmond-Steveston. Richmond Addiction Services and Turning

Point also attended the gathering to show support and provide

much-needed resources for attendees.

I want to express my sincere gratitude to colleagues in the

chamber who choose to wear a purple ribbon in remembrance of the lives

lost. There’s nothing I can say today, or do, that will bring comfort

for any of the families who have lost a loved one. As a father of two, I

cannot bear the thought of harm coming my children’s way, let alone the

thought of losing one of them forever.

I ask my colleagues, community leaders, advocates and British

Columbians to work together to help end stigma around drug addiction and

work to end the toxic drug crisis. People with addictions are human

beings who are experiencing ongoing challenges in life, just like the

rest of us.

This crisis impacts all corners of British Columbia. People who

struggle or experience addiction are someone’s father, mother, partner,

friend, sibling, colleague, loved one or even child.

When people ask for help, we must welcome them. In communities

like Richmond, we know that we need to build bridges across different

cultures and languages, as well as generational barriers, to foster an

inclusive community, so that when people reach out, they will not be

ashamed.

Together we can end this public health crisis.

[1:45 p.m.]

STEM EDUCATION AND

SCHOOL ROBOTICS

PROGRAMS

K. Kirkpatrick: STEM is an acronym for science, technology, engineering and math.

By now, we have all heard about the importance of STEM education and

STEM jobs. With the rise in careers needing these skills, anything from

video game data analysis to creating insights into financial systems,

having a STEM education is becoming increasingly important to our

economy as employment in STEM occupations is growing rapidly.

Not only are STEM skills key to the future of our economy; they

also teach life skills such as critical thinking and innovation,

teamwork, creativity and project management, along with many others.

Robotics is a powerful tool that supports students in the development of

STEM skills in a practical and hands-on environment.

Enter West Vancouver Schools — which, back in 2015, saw the

possibilities and began a robotics club, with only 11 students. Today

the Mechatronics Robotics Academy now has over 250 students ranging from

grade 4 to grade 12, offering a host of courses. Every grade 8 student

at West Van Secondary School takes robotics as part of their course

rotation, and a new course for grades 11 and 12, entitled cybersecurity

and artificial intelligence, is already fully subscribed for this

summer.

As you can imagine, these robotic tournaments are highly

competitive, and we had a team from West Vancouver. West Van’s grade 6

team, Gloria Collins and Annie Zhang, won a world championship,

competing against 500 teams from 36 countries. Certainly, the program

that West Vancouver has is doing amazing things.

Congratulations to the talented students and their dedicated

teachers who are taking the robotics program at West Vancouver Schools

to the next level.

B.C. BOOK DAY

R. Russell: I rise today to celebrate the wellspring of B.C. literary culture

on this, the ninth annual B.C. Book Day.

I asked a B.C. writer — inspired into the craft, in part, by

invasion of both Parkinson’s and Lewy body dementia into her life — to

share her words. From here on, the words are of my friend Leslie

Davidson.

“Just over six years ago, we lost the brilliant Ojibway writer

Richard Wagamese, a man of heart and humour and grace. He believed that

‘all that we are is story’ and also that ‘by telling our stories we not

only forge relationships built on understanding and respect, but we grow

into self-realization.’

“Because his beautiful, powerful words found a home with a publisher

of books, we have his stories. Because there are publishers and sellers

of books and publicly funded libraries, because there are readers of

books and writers of books, ours is a culture in which understanding and

respect may not always exist, but the possibility of their existence is

expressed in the best of those books.

“Books teach us, challenge our thinking, tell the stories of heroes

among us — and the villains. Books hold humanity up to the mirror and

say, ‘Take a good look,’ a look that sometimes leads us to the

self-realization that we want to be better, to do better.

“Books let us walk a mile in the shoes of another. They take us to

places that are possibilities if we can act with love and commitment to

our planet and to one another. They show us the horrors of what we may

create if we let selfishness and greed determine our actions. When life

is harsh and hard and sad, books remind us that there is laughter and

joy, that there is delight in a beautifully conceived phrase or the

perfect word.”

Today we honour the books of British Columbia. Take a look at the

new releases of any B.C. publisher of books and you will find diversity

as grand, as pure, as complex, as helpful, as riveting and as

wonderfully and perfectly imperfect as the communities, the people and

the landscapes of this incredible province.

So forge those relationships. Grow into self-realization. Discover

your own truths. “All that we are is story.”

SUCCESS SOCIETY 50 th ANNIVERSARY

AND FUNDRAISING GALA

T. Wat: On Saturday, April 8, SUCCESS, one of Canada’s largest social

service agencies assisting newcomers, seniors, youth and families,

celebrated their 50th anniversary.

I was honoured to join my colleagues in the B.C. United caucus at

the 2023 Bridge to Success Gala, which not only celebrated the

remarkable achievements of this organization but also raised $500,000

for community services that receive no funding or partial funding from

government.

[1:50 p.m.]

I extend my heartfelt congratulations and gratitude to SUCCESS for

the exceptional work they do to strengthen communities in British

Columbia. Their critical role in improving the lives of many, many

people cannot be overstated, and I’m humbled to witness the impact they

have made over the past 50 years.

I am proud to report that the SUCCESS Gala was a resounding

success, just like it has been for the past 20 years, since I first

supported this cause in 2003, a long time ago. The event featured a

mesmerizing performance by the renowned Hong Kong singer-songwriter

Christopher Wong, who I’m also a great fan of, by the way. He is also an

alumna of my university in Hong Kong.

Through this event and other endeavours, SUCCESS is able to

education and settlement services for those who need them the

most.

I want to extend my congratulations to the remarkable staff at

SUCCESS, CEO Queenie Choo, foundation board chair Jason Lam, the

volunteers and all of those who attended for making this a memorable and

successful night.

Fifty years is a long time. I wish them many, many more 50

years.

RELIGIOUS AND CULTURAL CELEBRATIONS

H. Sandhu: This month many religious and cultural celebrations are happening

across our province, which reminds us about oneness. One of the things

that makes B.C. such a great province is that we are a beautiful mosaic,

where each cultural community is allowed to celebrate their unique

traditions and celebrations.

Sikhs celebrated Vaisakhi on April 13, one of the most important

dates in the Sikh calendar, a day to celebrate 1699, when Sikhism was

born as a collective faith. Sikhs believe in oneness. God is one. We

need this reminder in today’s world, where divisiveness, hatred and

ignorance towards others is so prevalent.

The Muslim community has been observing Ramadan for the past month

and will celebrate the breaking of their fast with the Eid celebration

happening on April 20.

Christians also observed several holidays this month, from Palm

Sunday, Good Friday and just recently Easter, where they celebrated the

resurrection of their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Passover is also celebrated this month by those in the Jewish

community to honour the freeing of the Israeli slaves.

Mahavir Jayanti is celebrated by those following the religion

Jainism and celebrating the birth of Lord Mahavir.

For those who do not participate in any of these holidays, spring

itself is a celebration. As the weather begins to warm up and the

daylight stretches into the evening, we begin to feel more energized and

connected with others.

No matter whether you celebrate a holiday or not this month, we

still have much more in common than different. We are all humans who

deserve respect and love.

I encourage you all to take time this month to learn a bit about a

celebration you may not know of. It is through learning about others

that we realize how much we have in common.

DRUG TOXICITY CRISIS

AND ADDICTION

RECOVERY

E. Sturko: April 14, 2023, marked the seventh anniversary of British

Columbia’s declaration of a public health emergency over increasing

overdoses and toxicity deaths.

Since the declaration, more than 11,000 people have died,

including an increasing number of youths. Last year overdose deaths were

nearly five times higher than they were in 2015, when 474 lives lost had

triggered the public health emergency. The statistics are grim and a

stark reminder of why urgent action is needed.

Seven years later I also want to talk about the lives that have

been saved. Thousands of people in B.C. have fought back against their

addictions and are now in recovery.

Since becoming the Mental Health and Addictions critic, I have

visited numerous treatment and recovery centres, learning about

services, from bed-based residential programs to out-patient

counselling, group therapy and 12-step programs. Most importantly, I

have been meeting resilient and courageous people who are working hard

to overcome their addictions.

[1:55 p.m.]

I’ve heard remarkable stories. A woman who had been living in a

tent encampment, in and out of psychosis, now in recovery, reunited with

her daughter and working at a job that she loves. A man once addicted

and homeless, living in the Downtown Eastside, now living in recovery,

developing programs and initiatives that will help others who are ready

to escape their addictions.

Recovery is not often a linear process but one that might include

relapse. This is why it’s important that we support, educate and care

for everyone along their path to wellness. We need to continue to

encourage people to do their best and to keep them safe when they falter

and to let them know that there is help available when they need

it.

If you’re someone in recovery, I want to say: “Keep going, one day

at a time. Better is possible.”

To the many thousands of British Columbians still struggling with

an addiction, please don’t give up. Contact a health care professional,

and ask for help.

Recovery is possible.

Oral Questions

CRIME IN COMMUNITIES AND

ACTION ON COMMUNITY

SAFETY

K. Falcon: The shocking stabbing and senseless death of young Ethan on a bus

in Surrey this week has increasingly left people fearing for their

safety and that of their loved ones. We have all heard the

heart-wrenching words of Ethan’s mother, Holly, who tracked her son’s

final movements through GPS, waiting to pick him up at the bus stop,

only to watch as he suddenly was being moved to the hospital. Ethan’s

last text to her was full of fear.

As a father and as parents, we all share the heartache and the

outrage. No parent should ever have to endure such a devastating loss.

Ethan’s family, like so many others, is calling for change, an increase

in security on public transit and in our own communities.

The question Ethan’s family is asking, the question British

Columbians are asking, the question this opposition has repeatedly been

asking is: when is this Premier and government finally going to take

some concrete steps so people can feel safe in their communities

again?

Hon. D. Eby: I think all British Columbians were absolutely heartbroken to see

the grief Ethan’s family is going through. As the member said, rightly,

those of us in this place who have young people in our lives who are

close to us, to imagine ourselves in the position of Ethan’s mom —

absolutely horrific.

Our government takes this incredibly seriously. We’ve been working

on public transit safety with TransLink, even in advance of these recent

horrific incidents. Community safety officers — TransLink is already in

the midst of hiring them. They’re bringing on 24 community safety

officers to increase security on our transit system.

The RCMP and transit police are stepping up their presence and

patrols on the transit system — very important. We’ve told them that if

they need any additional resources, they should absolutely ask, and

we’ll make those available.

At the national level, the Minister of Public Safety has reached

out to his counterpart, Minister Mendicino, to make sure that we’re part

of any federal response that they’re preparing.

I can advise members of this House that Premiers across Canada are

working with the chiefs of police nationally to tighten our

relationships so we can find those common elements of those issues we’re

seeing in our provinces and put forward unified

recommendations.

K. Falcon: I remind the Premier that he was also the Attorney General for

over five years and oversaw the explosion of violence that we’re seeing

in communities across the province.

Just in the past two weeks alone, we have seen a man stabbed on a

SkyTrain in Surrey Central station; a serious assault on a TransLink bus

in Vancouver; a violent, bloody brawl on a West Vancouver Blue Bus; a

stabbing at the Columbia SkyTrain station; assaults on the Millennium

Line in Burnaby; and a man whose throat was slashed on a bus in

Surrey.

Enough is enough. People are tired of the rhetoric and the

reannouncements and want concrete action that actually produces improved

results.

My question is: what is it going to take for this Premier and

government to actually take meaningful steps so that families and loved

ones can feel safe in their own communities again?

Hon. D. Eby: Here’s where I’m on the same page with the member across the way.

These are people who are just going about their daily business in their

communities. They’re going to visit friends, using transit. They’re

going to work.

[2:00 p.m.]

These are horrific and unacceptable violent incidents that are

shaking people in the community. Our government is taking action on this

because people deserve to be safe on transit. They need to be safe on

transit and in community.

I ran through the pieces of work that we’ve been doing at the

immediate local level, at the provincial level, the national level. I

know the member is aware of these things. Our government will not stand

by. We will continue to take action with all of our partners to ensure

safety for people in community.

Deputy Speaker: Leader of the Official Opposition, further

supplemental.

K. Falcon: With the greatest respect, Premier, the answer is woefully

inadequate.

Deputy Speaker: Through the Chair.

K. Falcon: Let’s understand how we got to the position we’re in. For 5½ years

as Attorney General, this Attorney General left hundreds and hundreds of

policing positions vacant right across the province of British Columbia.

In fact, over one-half of the 813 vacant RCMP positions in the country

are right here in British Columbia.

As Attorney General, for months he denied that there was even a

problem until finally, under pressure from this opposition and the

public, he announced that he was going to have two consultants spend

half a year to come back and tell him how to do his job.

The result was no surprise. They said that the catch-and-release

program is failing communities right across the province. When you add

to that, as Minister of Housing, the program that warehouses those with

severe mental health and addiction issues in motels and hotels in the

downtown cores right across this province without proper supports, it’s

no surprise that we’ve ended up where we are today.

Having served as Attorney General from day one of this government,

the Premier has personally overseen this problem for six years now, and

the results are terrible.

The question we ask as an opposition, on behalf of the public, is:

when will we finally get concrete results that improve the safety on our

streets so that people can feel safe again in British

Columbia?

Hon. D. Eby: One of the key priorities of our government is ensuring that every

British Columbian is safe in their community, whether that’s going to

work, whether it’s on transit or it’s in a local park, in a downtown

area. It has been the focus of our government. The member knows. I know

he’s aware that we’ve taken action on this.

Twelve teams across the province starting work beginning of next

month — teams of prosecutors, probation officers, corrections officers

to address the issues of repeat violent offenders, repeat chronic

offenders in community; $230 million for additional RCMP officers across

the province, including for specialized teams; funding for the RCMP

lab.

The work, though, also recognizes that there’s a serious issue,

mental health and addiction, that underlies a lot of what we’re seeing

in communities. Peer-assisted Car programs, where a mental health

professional is present with a police officer — new funding to expand

that program across the province. Peer teams to intervene in situations

where it’s more appropriate that someone with experience around mental

health is responding instead of a police officer, freeing up police to

respond to criminal issues.

Hon. Speaker, $1 billion in mental health and addiction treatment

interventions across the province.

Now, I take the member’s point. We’ve got a lot more work to do,

but we are doing that work.

PUBLIC SAFETY ON TRANSIT SYSTEMS

T. Halford: I remind the Premier that the announcement in Nanaimo was actually

the third time that they have announced that — three times.

For the last year, the government has ignored explicit demands for

enhanced safety measures on public transit. The Surrey Board of Trade

pleaded for increased safety measures for women. That was done last

year.

For months, the bus drivers union has demanded greater security.

Unifor director Gavin McGarrigle said he talked directly to the

Transportation Minister, and there is, in his quote: “a lawless

environment.” He labelled those actions “infuriating.”

When will the Premier…? If he’s not going to listen to the

thousands of British Columbians, will he listen to Unifor and do more

than just empty words and repeat announcements and actually do something

to solve the chaos that his soft-on-crime policies have

caused?

[2:05 p.m.]

Hon. M. Farnworth: I thank the member for the question.

I want to make it clear to the member that this side of the House

takes this issue extremely seriously.

That’s why my director of police

services has been working very closely with not only Transit Police but

the RCMP and the other municipal police agencies which our transit

systems run through to ensure that they are doing everything they can

and identifying any potential gaps that need to be filled and has made

it clear, as the Premier just did a moment ago, that any additional

resources required will be in place.

I can tell you that also involves working with the local unions

involved in terms of identifying what additional measures….

I also want to make it clear to the member that there are

significant safety measures in place on our transit systems, whether

they range from the yellow alarm strip that can be triggered by

passengers who are experiencing problems…. There are emergency phones at

all SkyTrain stations, all bus drivers have a silent alarm that they can

use to alert law enforcement that there is an issue in place, and nearly

all buses have closed-circuit TV cameras on them to be able to put in

place and identify individuals if there is an issue taking

place.

That being said, we’re always wanting to see if there are

additional ways in which we can make our transit system, which moves

about 400,000 people daily, safer. We are working with police and

transit unions to do just that.

T. Halford: I thank the minister for his answer, but people have been

identifying those gaps for over a year now. They have been. They’ve been

stating them publicly to this minister, to the Minister of

Transportation and I’m sure to the Premier directly.

The crisis of violence on transit has exploded under this

Premier’s watch, whether he was Attorney General or, now, Premier.

Unifor Local 111 president Balbir Mann warned last November that

escalating violence and assaults on drivers are increasing. “It’s

happening almost once a week. One is to many. We can’t just let this

keep happening.”

Under this NDP government, it does keep happening. And it’s

getting worse; it’s not getting better. We see that every day in every

community in this province. How much longer will this Premier ignore the

concerns of Unifor bus drivers who are saying that taking the bus is not

safe in this province?

Hon. M. Farnworth: Again, I thank the member for the question.

I’ll also inform the member that I spoke with Minister Mendicino

yesterday on the issue of violence and around the challenges that our

transit systems are facing in this regard. As he commented to me, this

is something that’s happening right across the country on transit

systems, whether it’s our Vancouver transit system, whether it’s

Edmonton, whether it’s Calgary, whether it’s Toronto. This is something

happening right across the country. He wants to work with us on

additional ways in which we can deal with the situation.

As I said to the member, my director of police services is working

closely with the police agencies, the RCMP, municipal police forces on

doing that. That also includes the unions involved.

My expectation is to see a significant increased police presence

around our transit system. The Premier has made it clear, in answer to

earlier questions, that if additional resources are required, those

resources will be in place.

Everybody deserves to feel safe in our transit system; 400,000

people a day use that system. It’s one of the best in the country, and

we want it to be the safest in the country.

PROTECTION OF OLD-GROWTH FORESTS

AND LOGGING IN

KWAKIUTL TERRITORY

A. Olsen: This government promised to protect old-growth forests and

meaningfully engage with First Nations. They promised a paradigm shift

in how our forests are managed. They promised to defer at-risk old

growth.

Despite these promises, stands of old growth forests are currently

being logged in Kwakiutl territory. Culturally significant and

biologically rich old-growth stands are being clearcut against the

community’s wishes.

In a letter they wrote to the Minister of Forests, it says: “At

the heart of the matter is the simple fact that no consultation or basic

information-sharing has ever occurred with our Kwakiutl membership, our

Hereditary Chiefs or the Matriarchs of our tribe. This deal was

negotiated and concluded in secret without the free, prior and informed

consent of the true stewards of our lands and territory. Thus, the laws

of British Columbia and the laws of the Kwakiutl Nation have been

violated.”

Some of the recent cut blocks are within the at-risk old growth

prioritized for the deferral by this government.

[2:10 p.m.]

My question is to the Minister of Forests. Kwakiutl leaders have

unequivocally called for deferrals of all old-growth logging within

their territory. It has been adopted by policy and enshrined by their

land use plan. Why, then, did this government approve old-growth logging

in their territory?

Hon. B. Ralston: The issue that has arisen in this territory is that the elected

nation has received a tenure of 53,000 cubic metres a year, and they

have the permission and the right to log that. There is a dispute

internally between that elected group and the hereditary leadership of

this nation, which is being resolved through internal

discussion.

Our policy on old growth is one that is provincewide. We have

deferred 2.1 million hectares of old growth, and we’re aiming to add

more to that. The effect and the implications of that kind of change are

massive, and we are working our way through the complications that arise

from the implementation of this policy. Generally, the policy has been

well received by forest companies, by First Nations, by communities and

by NGOs.

A. Olsen: It appears that the type of reconciliation this government is

embracing specifically in this case is reconciliation with those who

agree with them. Of course the forest industry is going to be happy that

while the internal disputes within the Kwakiutl Nation are being

resolved, the old growth that should be deferred is being logged. That’s

the kind of reconciliation that’s being delivered on the other side of

the House.

The Hereditary Chiefs, Matriarchs and community members have been

calling on this government to halt logging of old growth. They’re asking

the Minister of Forests to share the forestry deal with the Kwakiutl

membership that they haven’t been able to see, the group that the

minister is partnering with.

The Hereditary Chiefs and the Matriarchs haven’t had a chance to

review this content and assess its ramifications. That’s what they’ve

been asking for. This minister seems to be okay with just allowing the

anger and the frustration within the community to foment while the old

growth continues to fall in their territory.

In their letter, they note that they’re prepared to go into their

territory and protect it if necessary, but that’s really the job of this

Forest Minister to do that. They shouldn’t have to do that.

To the Minister of Forests, will the minister suspend all activity

on the ground in the Kwakiutl territory, including the cutting and

roadbuilding, and share the agreement as the community has

requested?

Hon. B. Ralston: One of the ways in which this policy is being implemented is

through forest landscape planning. That is in contrast to the previous

arrangement where a logging plan was simply presented to the ministry

and approved or not approved. This process will involve communities,

whether it’s Indigenous Nations, the community, the companies, or labour

and their representatives, in a community-focused regional process to

come to a durable agreement about how any particular part of our forest

should be harvested.

That’s the process that we are advancing in a number of

jurisdictions throughout the province. It’s been successful. It’s been

well received. I’m expecting that within this region, similar results

will follow.

MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS TEAMS AND

PUBLIC SAFETY ON TRANSIT

SYSTEMS

E. Sturko: Under this soft-on-crime Premier, social disorder and violence has

never been worse, and people don’t even feel safe getting on a bus any

more. Recently someone took a five-foot long metal fence post and

shattered a bus window, narrowly missing the bus driver.

The Premier’s catch-and-release and soft-on-crime policies go way

beyond the justice system. Every day we witness the consequences of this

two-term government’s abject failure to address mental health and

addictions and the absence of front-line interventions and massive gaps

in care.

[2:15 p.m.]

My question to the Premier is: why aren’t there mental health

teams working alongside transit police during this crisis?

Hon. J. Whiteside: I thank the member for the question and also wish to express my

sympathy to the family of the young man who was killed and to those who

are experiencing the challenges with respect to that

currently.

We are working with partners, with our health authorities, with

all of our partners on the front lines with respect to improving access

to mental health and addictions care across all of our communities. We

know that the investments that we have made over the past number of

years since 2017, since this ministry was stood up, have shifted the

access to treatment, to community counselling, to hospital services, to

bed-based services in community.

There is no question that there is more work to be done. That work

is work we’re engaged in with all of our partners, including looking at

supports across sectors and workplaces where folks are experiencing

mental health issues. We’ll continue to do that very important work, and

I thank the member for raising the concern.

MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS RESPONSE

AND COMMUNITY

SAFETY

E. Sturko: The out-of-control crime, violence and lawlessness that we see

every day are the direct consequences of this Premier’s disastrous

soft-on-crime policies for six years. The Police Act review was

completed a year ago with critical recommendations on mental health and

interactions with police. But this Premier has utterly failed to take

action on any of those recommendations.

As the opposition, we have proposed solutions and even introduced

a private member’s bill to amend the Mental Health Act to give us more

tools to help those in crisis, but the Premier refuses to call it for

debate. When will the Premier finally admit the total failure of his

soft-on-crime policies and start implementing our solutions?

Hon. M. Farnworth: I appreciate the question from the member. I want to make a couple

of observations.

First off, when it comes to public safety in our transit system,

there are 184 transit police officers. There are RCMP detachments,

municipal detachments, who work extremely hard to ensure safety on our

transit system. They work extremely diligently whenever an event or

whenever a tragedy occurs, whenever something occurs, to bring that

perpetrator to justice.

I note that at two o’clock, the RCMP held a press conference and

announced an arrest in the case of the tragic murder that took place on

our transit system of young Ethan in Surrey.

I can also tell the member that we have done a significant amount

of work in terms of additional resources for police, in terms of dealing

with the challenges that she has outlined — expanding the Car program,

for example; peer-assisted care teams, which have mental health workers

that are going to assist police in doing their job.

At the same time, we’re seeing coming online an app which police

have asked for, HealthIM, which allows them to get information to a

hospital a lot faster than previously so that they’re not having to

spend time in hospitals with an individual, waiting for that individual

to be assessed and appropriate treatment to be made available. Often you

would see police waiting four, five, six, eight hours sometimes when

that happened. That has been implemented.

We have requested changes at the federal level in terms of the

Criminal Code of Canada. All of those things are concrete steps that

have been taken by this government and will continue to be taken by this

government.

There’s one other thing that I want to also make clear to the

opposition, because I know the member raised it and the other member

raised it, in terms of Nanaimo.

[2:20 p.m.]

There were new initiatives announced in Nanaimo, $16 million in

new funding to assist police in doing special investigation and targeted

enforcement into violent repeat offenders. That is money that is

available for communities in Nanaimo, in Prince George, Kelowna and

other communities around the province. It’s targeted. That comes into

effect with individuals in place to be able to do that in the first few

weeks of May.

We have done a lot. There is a lot more to do, but it is our

priority, this government’s priority, to ensure that British Columbians

are safe in their communities.

ACTION ON COMMUNITY SAFETY

AND POLICE OFFICER

VACANCIES

T. Stone: At the end of the day, here we listen again to words and rhetoric

from the Solicitor General. The Solicitor General goes with the Premier

and the Attorney General to Nanaimo last week, and again, it’s a

reannouncement of a reannouncement. People want action.

I’ll highlight one particular area that the Solicitor General

needs to stop his line of information on. He sits here and talks about

all the work that he and his government are doing to bring more RCMP

officers into this province. Everyone agrees that that is a good idea,

but let’s look at the record. Let’s look at the results, which are

terrible.

There are 813 RCMP vacancies across Canada, the entire country, as

of today; 460 of those RCMP vacancies are right here in British

Columbia, over half. The Solicitor General, the Premier, could have

taken action on this five years ago, four years ago, three years ago,

two years ago, last year, earlier this year. The results are

terrible.

This past Saturday another young man was stabbed on the SkyTrain

in Surrey, the third such attack on transit in Surrey within two weeks

and the second stabbing in less than a week. Last year transit assaults

spiked by 24 percent, with a staggering 31 percent increase compared to

the ten-year average.

From Surrey to Nanaimo, Kamloops, Prince George, you name it,

every community can see and feel this Premier’s abysmal failure on

public safety, and no number of scripted announcements or bluster from

this government can hide it.

So my question to the Premier is this. When are British Columbians

going to feel safe again? When are they going to be safe again in their

communities? When is this government going to step up and take action so

that British Columbians are safe in their communities?

Hon. M. Farnworth: I appreciate the question from the member. I also appreciate the

way in which they’re trying to ask it. That is the role of the

opposition.

But what I want to make clear is the investments that we have made

are not rhetoric. They are, in fact, actual action. The $16 million in

new funding announced in Nanaimo is not rhetoric. That is action so that

police officers can do special, investigated and targeted enforcement of

repeat violent offenders.

In year 1, we brought in the first….

Interjection.

Hon. M. Farnworth: You know, we’re talking about tragedies that have happened in our

transit system, and I’m outlining for the opposition a number of

initiatives and steps and concrete actions that have taken place.

Instead, I’m hearing heckling. I think that’s really unfortunate,

because the people of this province deserve to feel safe, and they

deserve to know the actions that we’ve been taking.

I can tell you that from the very beginning, we started on a

program around guns and gangs violence that put in place a witness

protection security program, that has seen significant increase in the

number of cases and convictions and individuals going behind bars. We

put in place the first firearms lab, so forensic analysis is done here

in British Columbia, not having to be sent off to Ottawa.

We have worked to address the issue of vacancies, and the member

mentions the number of vacancies. We are the largest detachment in the

country, E division, and I can tell you that in my ministry, one of the

first things that we’ve been working on with the RCMP is to get a full,

comprehensive understanding on a detachment-to-detachment basis of

exactly what the vacancies are and where those vacancies are, whether

they’re soft vacancies or hard vacancies.

What I can also tell you is I know…. I know that member was never

Solicitor General, but his former colleague who was Solicitor General

understood the vacancy problems and, time after time after time, went to

get those vacancies filled, and they were never filled.

[2:25 p.m.]

What I can tell you is that this Premier made it a commitment that

when the evidence was presented, that here’s what we have to do, we made

the largest investments in provincial policing in the history of this

province and, indeed, this country. We have done a lot of work. There’s

a lot more to do, and we will do it.

CRIME IN COMMUNITIES AND

ACTION ON COMMUNITY

SAFETY

S. Bond: Well, no amount of patting themselves on the back will bring

comfort today to a family whose son was on a bus and didn’t get

home.

This Premier needs to stand up and acknowledge that people in

British Columbia today are tired of the empty words. What they want is a

Premier that will acknowledge the fact that they are afraid to take a

bus in British Columbia. Who can possibly imagine that?

Dominique Curtis has started a petition following the tragic death

of young Ethan. In just two days, over 5,000 British Columbians have

signed that petition. The petition states: “This is just one of many

violent or deadly incidents on TransLink buses…. It’s a growing trend

that needs to be stopped now.”

Announcements. Reannouncements. Empty words. What on earth was

this Premier thinking when he and his roadshow rolled into Nanaimo?

People were desperate for this Premier to show meaningful action and

understanding, and the reception should not have been a surprise to this

Premier.

When is he going to accept responsibility as a former Attorney

General, the now Premier of British Columbia, that our streets are no

longer safe for British Columbians? They are afraid, and it is his job

to do something about that.

Hon. M. Farnworth: I appreciate the question from the member. But I’ll make it clear,

as I have made it clear right from the very beginning. This government

takes this situation very seriously.

That is why we have a community safety action plan. That’s why

we’ve been working with local government. That’s why we have been

working with police agencies right across the province. That’s why we

have been working with the federal government, because we….

Interjection.

Hon. M. Farnworth: That’s exactly all we ever get from the opposition —

rhetoric.

Interjections.

Deputy Speaker: Members.

Members, we will have an answer. We will not have debate shouting

back at each other.

Hon. M. Farnworth: We get rhetoric. That’s all we get.

The reality is this government is making significant investments

that police have asked for, that communities have asked for — seeking

changes at the federal level in terms of the criminal code, which the

federal government has committed to putting in place. We are working,

ensuring that all the tools that are required by law enforcement

agencies are there.

As the Premier has said already, if additional resources are

required in terms of our transit system, they will be there, because we

know and understand that British Columbians do deserve to feel safe,

whether it’s on their transit system, in their communities or in their

homes, and we are going to do everything we can to ensure that

happens.

[End of question period.]

K. Falcon: I seek leave to make an introduction.

Leave granted.

Introductions by Members

K. Falcon: I’m pleased to see, in the gallery, a friend. Federal Liberal MP Terry

Beech is joining us here today, along with his lovely wife, Ravi, and their

two young children.

Interjections.

K. Falcon: On the floor. Oh my goodness. That’s even better. Of

course.

And their two lovely children, Nova and Solar. I have to say that they

are extraordinarily well behaved. I am very jealous and impressed by

that.

I’d ask the House to please make them welcome once again.

Petitions

P. Milobar: I rise to present a petition created by Amanda Yaschuk, trying to keep

the Kamloops region family obstetrics clinic, a maternity clinic, open. It’s

been signed by 4,307 people.

This clinic is slated to close later this year, leaving over 300 women

in Kamloops and area without prenatal care. We’ll have well over 700 in 2024

if staffing issues are not solved to keep this vital clinic open.

Orders of the Day

Hon. R. Kahlon: In the main chamber, I call Committee of Supply of the Ministry of

Housing.

In committee room A, I call debate on Committee of Supply for the Ministry

of Transportation and Infrastructure.

In committee room C, I call continued debate on the Committee of Supply

for the Ministry of Agriculture and Food and, when that’s complete, the

Committee of Supply for the Ministry of Jobs, Economic Development and

Innovation.

Deputy Speaker: We’ll take a short recess to let the appropriate parties get into place.

Thank you, Members.

The House recessed at 2:30 p.m.

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HOUSING

The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. Leonard in the

chair.

The committee met at 2:36 p.m.

The Chair: Good afternoon. I call the Committee of Supply,

Section B, to

order, to consider the estimates of the Ministry of Housing. I would

like to recognize the minister to make opening remarks.

On Vote 33: ministry operations, $884,436,000.

The Chair: If the minister would like to make some remarks and

introductions.

Hon. R. Kahlon: I want to thank the amazing team that I have here with me. I’ve

got Teri Collins, my deputy minister. I’ve got Tracy Campbell, Bindi

Sawchuk and Meghan Will, our ADMs. We’ve got Sara Goldvine here from

B.C. Housing as well. I want to thank them for their amazing

work.

I know there are more folks from the team that are probably in an

office somewhere, huddled together, hopefully enjoying some of the

treats that my office brought for them to keep them through for the next

few days. But I want to thank them for the amazing work that they do to

house so many British Columbians. We know how big of an issue this is.

None of this work can happen without them. I want to say a big thank you

to them.

With that, I look forward to the exchange.

K. Kirkpatrick: Madam Chair, may I make some opening remarks as well? Thank you

very much.

Thank you to the minister and also thank you and welcome to his

staff. It’s wonderful to see this powerful group of women leaders on the

other side of the House, supporting the minister. I know it takes a

significant amount of time to prepare for estimates. I’ve actually been

on the other side of that before, and I certainly appreciate the

time.

I’m very appreciative that I now am able to work with the Housing

file. I think a lot about housing and the role that it plays in our

lives. Back in school, many of us took motivational therapy…. Maybe I

took therapy. I don’t know. Motivational theories. You may remember

Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. We all thought: “When am I ever going to

need that?” But there is Maslow’s theory of housing.

I think that it is really, fundamentally important for us to

remember that housing provides that basic physiological need for people

to feel safe and to help them maintain their life. It means that housing

not only meets our sheltering-related needs, but it means that if we

don’t have safe housing, the other things in our lives are very

difficult to achieve.

In B.C., we’re seeing that base housing is not…. That need is not

being met, and it’s impacting mental health, addictions, safety, family,

parenting, employment and everything else. We also need to consider

mobility in housing. Is there enough housing at each stage of life for

people, and the ability for people to move up and down that housing

continuum, based on their current needs?

It’s imperative to free up housing for others in that continuum.

Focusing on only one type of housing reduces mobility and access to

affordability. I know, as the minister knows, and his team, that the

importance of supporting housing across that continuum is imperative to

be successful. In order to have a safe, sound, adequate housing market,

we need all players to come to the table. The provincial government has

to set that table with strategic direction and action-oriented

plans.

[2:40 p.m.]

Governments have to work together with non-profits, with social

purpose developers, with for-profit developers. Government needs to be

very creative and look at new ways of being able to do things. An

example would be a recent failure to amend

section 9 of the B.C.

building code to allow tiny homes as a viable, affordable

option.

I’m hoping that government, in looking at moving forward in terms

of options for people, can look at new ways of doing things. That may

mean amending and changing the way that we think about housing. I do

look forward to exploring some of these things and others as they relate

to government budget plans and policies.

Budget 2023 claims that $1.7 billion in new operating and capital

investments is going into housing. However, it’s not clear how much will

truly be allocated to enhance the existing Building B.C. programs. How

much in the budget is going towards grants for non-profits?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I can share with the member that in this coming budget year, $1.56

billion is going in grants to not-for-profits.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

So that’s $1.56 billion out of the $1.7 billion? Just to confirm

that that is what I heard. I think I’m getting a nod.

How many units will come from this funding, and what is the

average cost per unit?

[2:45 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Part of the funding…. For just this fiscal year, there will be

8,538 units. The average cost per unit is around $553,831. It varies. It

goes between that and $614,000, depending on the program. Different

programs have more dollars associated, according to the needs that come

with the programming.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

Now, housing partners are telling us that they are having trouble

discerning how much of the new funding they’re truly eligible for. Will

the minister be…? When will the minister be announcing funding pools,

and what amounts will be held in those pools?

Hon. R. Kahlon: The CHF fund and the IHF fund will be open by this fall, at the

latest.

B.C. Housing notifies all the partners well in advance that this

is coming. Obviously, many not-for-profits know the funding is coming.

Many of them are preparing for the fund to be open.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

Will the minister tell us what the funding envelopes, or the

pools, will be? How much will be in those various funds?

[2:50 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: As part of this fiscal plan, we have $313 million approximately

for the community housing fund and for the Indigenous housing fund we

have about $221 million, again, for this fiscal plan.

K. Kirkpatrick: I’d just like to ask a clarifying question on something that the

minister said earlier. The 8,538 units: are those intended to be under

construction this year? Is that a number over three years? What stage

are those units at?

The second piece is clarifying that $553,000 was a cost per unit.

I meant actually to confirm the grant per unit as I presume those aren’t

the same number.

[2:55 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Two questions the member asked. The 8,538 units that I had shared

earlier is either new complete or under construction this year. Then the

benchmark grant per unit on the CHF is $158,000, and on the IHF, it’s

$368,000 a unit.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

One of the existing problems with the community housing fund is

the program only supports $100,000 grant per door. That’s, as we know,

despite the massive inflation we have on housing costs. How many

stranded assets are there because of the underfunding of this program

relative to the cost of construction today?

[3:00 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, thanks to the member for the question. I think we certainly

heard that from not-for-profits as well.

In ’22-23, B.C. Housing, in partnership with the province,

obviously, undertook a review of the Building B.C. program. Through the

work, the province updated the costing benchmarks to take into

consideration changes in construction and land costs and, of course,

requirements, flood resiliency, energy sustainability and Indigenous

design considerations.

This work resulted in a top-up funding in the Building B.C.

program to enable B.C. Housing to reach government unit targets. This

updated costing also informed funding of increased targets through 2023

for the housing for people plan. So over three years, that is an

additional $803 million.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister. I’m just trying to process that. I’m

not completely sure how it answers the question. It may well answer the

question, Minister. I just need to think about this.

So there is top-up funding on top of the $100,000 grant, per-door

grant. Does that mean there’s going to be a redesign of the grant to

take into consideration all of those additional costs that the minister

noted there, other considerations that are being looked at now with

these grants?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Maybe I’ll put a little more colour to the answer for the member.

For example, just the CHF — we’ve increased it from 100 to 158. And

that’s up by 25, 26. Hopefully, that makes more sense, how I explained

it.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

Again, looking at the assets that are stuck in the initiation

phase or — I refer to them as stranded assets — waiting for development,

how many of those, if the minister knows, are in that state right

now?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I can share with the member that I’m not aware of any project

right now that would be classified as a stranded asset.

[3:05 p.m.]

B.C. Housing has been working project by project with all the

projects, given that there are pressures, especially over the last few

years. We’ve been successful in helping many of those projects continue

to operate. So I’m not aware of a specific project.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you, Minister.

In his leadership campaign, the Premier promised to “double B.C.’s

capital grants for non-profits.” Can the minister confirm if this is

being done for the community housing fund? What is the net cost amount

of this program?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I can share with the member that part of the original housing

plan…. There was $7.6 billion and 29,100 units, part of Building B.C. we

committed to. As part of the increase in the budget that we’ve gotten,

we expect to build an additional 13,861 units, part of the additional

money that we’ve got from this budget.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

Is that a doubling of the capital grants for non-profits? I’m not

sure of those numbers there. Yeah, is that a doubling — I don’t believe

it is — of the grants?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I can share with the member that it’s a doubling of the women’s

transition fund units target. It’s a doubling of the Indigenous housing

targets as well.

[3:10 p.m.]

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

There was a reference to the $7.6 billion, which I believe was the

original investment into housing for this government. So with the

doubling of B.C.’s capital grants for non-profits, is this over a

previous year, or is this…? Over what time frame is this being

doubled?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I made a slight error. It’s not $7.6 billion; it’s $6.7 billion. I

got my numbers flipped, so I apologize for that.

I can share with the member that it’s doubling of the targets over

ten years.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

Just to clarify then, the Premier had said double B.C.’s capital

grants for non-profits, and what I’m hearing from the minister is

reference to targets. Is there a commitment on the actual capital

grants, not simply the targets?

[3:15 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I had to take a second to look back at the Premier’s platform

commitment. In the detail section, he committed to fund 3,900 new

supportive housing units from our ’28 budget. I can confirm with the

member that it is, in fact, double.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

I just want to clarify. I think the time frames are maybe getting

mixed up. In the Premier’s commitment, it was to double B.C.’s capital

grants for non-profits. It was meant to be for shovel-ready projects in

areas of highest need, and it was meant to be immediate. I heard the

minister mention “over ten years,” not quite matching up with the

immediacy of what I believe this money was to be spent for.

In the previous answer, we were talking, perhaps, about a

different pool of funds. What I heard the minister say is that that

commitment has been met to double B.C.’s capital grants for non-profits

so that shovel-ready projects can move forward. And these are new

projects. We are not including projects and units that are already in

the process of being built.

[3:20 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I don’t have the platform document so it’s hard to refer to

something that I don’t have access to. But I can share with you that the

Premier’s commitment to address homelessness was to double the amount of

supportive housing units.

In the 2018 plan, part of the budget, we had laid out how many

units were going to build. This budget actually does double the

supportive housing units in it. Also, it ties into a question I think

the member had earlier, and maybe she’ll be asking this again, around

the operating subsidies for all of these units. We’ve also got an

increase in operating of the subsidy around the benchmarks per unit, per

month. CHF is $1,340 per unit, and the IHF fund is $2,110 per month, an

increase in operating subsidy per unit.

K. Kirkpatrick: That doesn’t provide clarity to my question. Perhaps I will ask

the indulgence to come back to this question tomorrow and allow the

minister to have an opportunity to look at the actual wording in that

commitment. I shall move on to the next question.

Table 1.2.2 in the budget documents, called “Investing in

affordable and attainable housing,” so the Budget 2023 housing table…. I

am just hoping the minister can explain to me…. There is an asterisk to

a note that I don’t have, so I just need some clarity here. It actually

talks about the new operating investments reducing year over year. I’m

just hoping the minister can explain to me if I’m reading that correctly

and why “More homes through Building B.C.” and “Unlocking more homes and

supporting people” are actually being proposed to be reduced?

[3:25 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Can the member elaborate? She referred to a reduction. We’re

looking at the chart and don’t exactly know what she’s referring

to.

K. Kirkpatrick: It’s table 1.2.2. The first category is “New operating

investments.”

Correct me if I’m reading this incorrectly. Just as an example,

under “More homes through Building B.C.,” the 2023 number is 396. Then

it goes to 346. Then it goes to 277 in the ’25-26 year-end.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thanks to the member for the clarity on the question.

It’s not a reduction in the funding. It’s more a timing of the

projects. It’s to align the cash flow of the projects. That’s how the

cash flow is aligned over the three years.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister for that question. I will go and take a

closer look at that. That may be explained within the

document.

I’m going to move on to talk, just for a bit here, about the

residential tenancy branch. Government hasn’t delivered on its promise

to increase the budget by 40 percent. That promise was made at the end

of December 2022 but did not materialize in the budget. Why did the

minister cut the RTB funding increase when tenants and landlords are

facing just massive wait times?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I agree with the member. Certainly, we’ve seen an increase in

cases at the RTB. The RTB plays a very important role in ensuring that

disputes are dealt with in a timely manner.

I can confirm, for the member, that we have increased the budget

by 40 percent. I think maybe the member’s question is pertaining to the

fact…. I believe the $2 million of…. The RTB budget for ’23-24 is

$14.609 million plus an additional $2 million that’s in

contingencies.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

The estimates document shows the increase as only being 27 percent

or $3.1 million. I will revisit that. Okay.

How many FTE s have been approved to be added to the RTB, in

December, and how many have been filled at this point?

[3:30 p.m.]

[J. Tegart in the chair.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I just want to circle back to the previous question. I think the

member may have gotten the 27 percent because the $2 million is in

contingencies. That’s why it may appear 27, but I just want to clarify

that there’s $2 million in contingencies.

I can confirm for the member that our target was to hire 50 new

FTEs, and we are approximately half of that net-net.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister. This just might be playing with words a

bit, but there’s contingency versus actual routine funding.

The minister, in order to reach that higher percentage, the 40

percent, is talking about contingency funding, which is not the same as

actually doing a budget increase of 40 percent. Can I just clarify that

I’m understanding that?

Hon. R. Kahlon: It’s in contingencies this year because we’re hiring, and we’re

not exactly sure how fast we’re going to be able to hire. But it is part

of the budget for ongoing years.

K. Kirkpatrick: Back in December of this past year, we were hearing wait times at

the RTB were taking up to 31 weeks for issues to be resolved. What are

the current RTB wait times for each type of hearing at this

point?

[3:35 p.m.]

The Chair: Minister.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thank you, Chair. Welcome to the chair.

I can share with the member that in the last, approximately, just

over three months, we’ve actually started to see a lot of progress to

reduce the times. In January, we were about 3.9 weeks to hear emergency

disputes — it has gone down to three weeks — and 18.4 weeks to hear a

standard dispute. It’s down to 12. It was 33.3 weeks to hear monetary

disputes. That’s down to 29.7.

We’re seeing a gradual decrease not only as we hire staff but as

the work, the backlog, continues to be addressed. Also, with the

increase with the compliance and enforcement unit, we’re able to address

a lot of issues earlier now so they don’t have to go all the way to the

end.

In particular, the team has been doing some work in cases where

people don’t pay rent, because we know if they don’t pay rent, it takes

a long time. People think — some people, anyway — that you can do that

and then hold people out for not paying rent. The compliance unit is now

starting to proactively reach out in those cases to address them so they

don’t have to go through the complete process.

Obviously, the dollars are a huge help to help address the times,

but also, I think, the team is doing a fantastic job. They’ve reviewed

the process to streamline the process to ensure that where we can solve

disputes prior to it going to a hearing, they’re doing that. So we’re

starting to see success in just over…. These are numbers for a

three-month period. We expect that to continue to decrease over the

year.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

Three months is still a concerning wait time for someone for a

standard issue to go through, which is concerning still, although I do

appreciate it’s going to take some time to see the implication of the

increased budgeting.

Has the minister seen an increase in actual applications to RTB

because of new regulatory measures from government?

[3:40 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I can confirm two things. Coming out of the pandemic, we’ve seen

about a 20 percent increase in cases at the RTB.

I also want to go back to the previous question and share some of

the good work that the teams have been doing around revitalizing the

process. They’ve been doing some work to review their website to ensure

that citizens can access information early so that they need…. They’re

contacting parties to verify their scheduled hearings to ensure that

they’re still required. Often, the hearings get held, and then, in the

end, you realize they’re not needed.

I mentioned already intervening early to resolve issues without

hearings. We’re having some success there. Creating pathways for

expediated resolution of some types of disputes and enhanced screening

of applications to ensure that there’s completeness in the

applications.

All those things have helped, also, to reduce the

times.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you very much to the minister and his staff.

There was a new subvote this year — a strategy, governance and

accountability subvote. How many FTEs are employed there?

[3:45 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I just looked up, and all of a sudden, we’ve got people watching.

Clearly, we’ve got some students here. Welcome to the House. We’re

debating…. We’re having a discussion, I guess you could say, on housing,

the Ministry of Housing in British Columbia, and our budget. The

opposition critic is asking questions about the budget, and I’m hoping

to provide her many answers on the budget.

The question the member had was around how many FTEs. This

division has 20 FTEs. It’s important to note that these are not all new

hires. In some cases, people are brought in from different ministries

and, as the creation of the new ministry, been brought over as part of

the team.

This division provides strategic project leadership, planning,

performance reporting, as well as engagement and internal communications

for key initiatives as part of the housing for people plan.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister. Thank you also for acknowledging the

folks who have come into the House. I was wondering who they were. So

I’m glad to have them here.

To follow on, then, for the strategy, governance and

accountability, is this…? I know the minister has talked about this,

working with different ministries and reviewing, developing,

implementing various things. Is it specifically an advisory department?

What would the performance objectives be for this?

Hon. R. Kahlon: No, it’s not advisory in any way. Each action of the action plan,

the strategy that we’ve launched out, has a project plan, and a team is

monitoring the project plan. They also have the important role of

coordination, as the member knows very well. Housing touches so many

different ministries, so the team does support that coordination work as

well.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister for that.

In the documents, it says: “The subvote also provides for

leadership direction and strategic advice on issues, including policy,

legislation, issues management and stakeholder relations.” I just want

to clarify….

Although the minister has said this is not an advisory position,

how do we know that this is not duplicating what is being done by the

special adviser’s cabinet being set up by the Premier’s

office?

[3:50 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I can confirm there is no duplication. I already, obviously, have

highlighted the work in my previous answer — leads that support each of

the initiatives. There are a lot of initiatives in the housing strategy

— IGR support, issues management, correspondence with communities. We

get a lot of correspondence around the work we’re doing. So I can

confirm that for the member.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you for the answer.

There has been an additional $26 million added to housing and land

use policy for shared-cost arrangements. What is the purpose of this

money?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I think the member is referring to what we would call part of the

DAPR review. That’s the development approvals planning process. We

announced this at the UBCM. It’s $50 million over two years, so that’s

$26 million in this fiscal year.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister. I’m still trying to catch up on all

these acronyms.

These funds, if I understand…. Does this relate, then, to the

implementation of the Housing Supply Act?

Hon. R. Kahlon: With the housing strategy, the member will have seen a whole host

of initiatives that are related to local government. This money will be

targeted towards working with UBCM to ensure that they have dollars and

resources available for them to make any changes to their zoning, their

bylaws, associated with the changes that we’re proposing with the

housing strategy.

We know there’s a considerable amount of policy work that local

governments have to do, and whenever we make changes, like we have, we

want to make sure there are dollars available for local governments to

do their policy work. This will be supported through UBCM directly to

local governments so they can do that work.

K. Kirkpatrick: So the shared cost arrangements associated with the $26 million is

for work with UBCM, with various municipalities and groups, and this is

money that government is investing with them on projects that are going

to meet the housing strategy performance metrics.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, it’s $50 million over three years, $26 million in the

first. And it will be targeted. The UBCM will put the details out for

local governments to be able to apply. We did provide dollars in the

past years, as well, for local governments, through UBCM, to help

support some of their initiatives to speed up process. It’s all

associated from the DAPR review that was done a couple of years

ago.

[3:55 p.m.]

These dollars will be in grant form, through UBCM, to help them

address any policy-related issues that they may have from items that we

have identified as part of our Homes for People plan.

K. Kirkpatrick: What is the estimated total cost of implementing the Housing

Supply Act?

Hon. R. Kahlon: So $11 million is dedicated towards the policy work that’s

associated with the Housing Supply Act. I appreciate that communities

that are chosen will have some work to do as well, and part of the

support we’re providing local governments is through DAPR funding that

we are doing through UBCM.

Again, $20 million a few years ago, $10 million last year and $50

million over the next three years to ensure that local governments have

the support they need to adopt some of the policy changes that we’re

advancing with our housing strategy.

K. Kirkpatrick: Just to pop back on the $26 million question. The minister can

correct me if I’m wrong on how I’m explaining this. The $26 million is

financial supports for housing reform, digital permitting. Is that

included in that amount?

[4:00 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I think there were a couple of things there, around digital and

other things that were mixed in. I’ll just try to separate some of the

pieces.

The member may have been referring to our $9 million grant that

we’re providing to the digital supercluster around supporting increasing

productivity in the construction sector, around digital reforms,

processes. I think there’s a huge opportunity, in the construction

sector in particular, to find more productive ways of operating and

partnering with local governments. That’s some of the work that’s

happening.

The DAPR funding that we’ve had has been an opportunity for

communities to sometimes improve business processes, sometimes improve

digital processes. We have had flexibility for local governments to use

their dollars. In the end, we want to get housing built faster — that’s

our main goal — but we have been flexible with UBCM, for them to be able

to use dollars according to what the needs are in the local

community.

K. Kirkpatrick: If we’re talking about DAPR, I just would like to clarify. I know

the recommendations group that’s No. 6, on the provincial

recommendations and regulations process — how many of those

recommendations have been implemented by the government?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I’m hoping the member can provide a little bit more information

about which recommendation in particular, because the document we have

doesn’t have any of them numbered. If the member can just share which

one in particular.

K. Kirkpatrick: That’s a great question. There are about 36 recommendations. It’s

table 6 within the report.

[4:05 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I’ll go through each of the points here. One of the items is

around communication of new provincial policies and regulations. I think

that’s an easy one. We’re talking to local governments quite a bit

around some of the changes that need to happen but also some of the

changes that have happened since this came out. Hence the $30 million,

for the last two years, to help not only to have forums for partners to

share best practices but also to be able to get the resources to adopt

the many pieces that we wanted to adopt.

[4:10 p.m.]

The 6.2, 6.4 and 6.5 all refer to the one-stop, one-window setup

that we have now with the new Ministry of Water, Land and Resource

Stewardship.

All those three items are the work that’s happening as part of the

one-stop window. The cost for the first developers’ piece is something

MOTI is doing work on. Perhaps they’ll be able to give you more

information on that.

Changes to the building code, the building code future changes….

The discussions are happening right now. Yes, very much engaging with

the development community, local governments and others.

B.C. Hydro’s piece. We’ve been talking to B.C. Hydro quite a bit

about their role and how they can help facilitate more development and

what’s needed there. I can share with the member that probably EMLI

would be better positioned on their engagement. My understanding is

they’re doing engagement, also, with local governments, with those in

the building community in particular. They’ll be better positioned to

answer that.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister for those answers.

There was an overall reduction in service plan targets for housing

construction from previous years. With the critical need for housing,

and the commitment from the Premier on taking urgent action, why have

the service plan targets been reduced?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I can share with the member that the B.C. Housing service plan was

done before the housing strategy was announced. It doesn’t reflect the

Budget 2023 financial commitments we’ve made to housing.

K. Kirkpatrick: Could I ask the minister to clarify that? I’m not sure how that

would actually result in a reduction of targets.

In 2022, B.C. Housing originally targeted 4,500 new homes

completed through the provincial government for fiscal 2023. But then,

in Budget 2023, that has been downgraded to 3,000. That’s a reduction of

1,500. If that’s the impact of the new housing strategy, we’re going in

the wrong direction.

[4:15 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I appreciate the member’s question. I think all projects, whether

they’re ours or the private sector, are facing cost pressures. Because

of cost pressures, the forecasts were a little bit lower, but because of

the additional $800 million in the budget to address cost pressures,

we’re going to be able to surpass these targets.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

I just want to repeat what I believe I heard the minister say.

Even though these targets are set out in the service plan, the minister

does not believe that these are accurate targets. They will actually be

more than what the service plan is indicating.

[4:20 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I can confirm that we expect to surpass the projected forecasts

that are in the service plan.

K. Kirkpatrick: Okay. I may come back to that with the minister. These service

plans coming out at the same time as the budget is troubling. You would

think they would be taking into account what the current cost pressures

are and what the current expectations are.

While 2022 housing starts were the second highest on record,

they’re still falling far short of what we’re going to need here in

British Columbia. We saw 150,000 immigrants last year, largely

international. It is concerning that we don’t have more clarity in terms

of where we’re going to end up.

Under the heading “Other capital funding,” it appears that it

includes pre-2017 programs like the investment in housing innovation and

provincial investment in affordable housing programs.

Can the minister confirm if that is now being counted by the NDP

towards their targets?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I can confirm for the member that only projects that were

initiated under our government are captured in this. There were projects

initiated prior to August 2017, 3,800 units, but that is not included in

this.

K. Kirkpatrick: I’m just going to pop back to the service plan targets again

before moving on. The minister has said that the expectation is that it

will be more than 3,000 units. Will the minister provide an explanation

for why he believes that will be more? What is that based on? And what

does he believe that target should be?

[4:25 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I think I provided that answer previously. I’ll just do it

again.

The service plan for B.C. Housing was done prior to the budget and

the housing strategy being launched. I can update the member on what we

think the projection will be, given the additional dollars in the

budget. For 2023-24, we believe it will be 4,300. For 2024-25, 3,304.

For 2025-26, 3,436.

I always want to leave a caveat. There’s sometimes a local

government process that can move the numbers according to how fast the

projects get permitted and all the process that goes with it. These are

more, I think, accurate reflections, given the increased amount of

dollars that are in the budget.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister. I may come back to that. That is very

helpful. I appreciate that.

I’m going to move on to some questions now on SAFER and

RAP.

How about five minutes?

The Chair: We will have a comfort break for five minutes.

The committee recessed from 4:28 p.m. to 4:36 p.m.

[R. Leonard in the chair.]

The Chair: I call the committee back to order.

K. Kirkpatrick: According to the B.C. Housing service plan, the target was missed

by 7,000 people last year for SAFER and RAP. Why is that?

[4:40 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I’ll refer the member to page 11 of the B.C. Housing service plan,

maybe not right now but for future reference, where we actually lay out

some of the challenges. B.C. Housing is very transparent on the

challenges that the program has around the requirements. I’ll read into

the record:

“The impact of changes in the rental market since 2020-2021 combined

with static eligibility requirements and rent ceilings for SAFER and RAP

has resulted in a decrease in enrolment for both programs. Work on

advertising and promotion will continue to ensure that those that are

eligible are aware of the program. However, with the current program

parameters, significant growth is unlikely. A review of SAFER and RAP

has been undertaken, and recommendations for improving the program will

be considered this fiscal year.”

So that’s part of the plan. I can share that the review happened.

Staff are reviewing the report right now. Some of the findings I can

share with the member. The findings found the report aligns well with

the programs — in particular, four of the five rent supplement program

principles: portability, targeted, accessible and achieves

affordability. Right now the ministry is currently in the process of

reviewing the rest of the report. I look forward to being able to go

through that in more great detail.

K. Kirkpatrick: I presume the minister has received and read the seniors

advocate’s report titled B.C. Seniors: Falling Further Behind .

Perhaps the answer the minister just gave me is in response to some of

the challenges that were set out in that report. I’m going to quote from

the report: “The challenges with SAFER are the rent and income ceilings

that cap both the amount of rent that is subsidized and the amount of

income recipients are allowed to earn. Neither reflect the reality of

the current rental market in B.C.”

I was unclear from the answer from the minister previously if the

minister is addressing this critique with the changes that he was just

suggesting.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Yes, I’m aware of the seniors advocate’s concerns. In fact, what I

read into the record in the previous answer is a direct reflection of

what the seniors advocate has raised. We are doing a review right now,

and of course, once the review is complete, I’ll be able to share more

information.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

The number of seniors on wait-lists for subsidized housing

continues to grow. How many seniors are currently on the wait-list this

year for subsidized housing?

[4:45 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I think all members in this House will know that global inflation

is hitting everyone and seniors in particular. As our senior population

continues to grow, we expect that the pressure on our seniors is going

to increase as time goes on.

I can share with the member that the number we have for December

31, 2022, was about just under 11,000 seniors. I think it’s important to

note that that’s why we’re making the record investments we are. We know

this housing is critically important not only for young people, not only

for young families, but also for seniors.

Although all our housing we’re bringing online is available for

seniors, there are a few projects that I wanted to just highlight that

are dedicated to seniors. We’ve got 141 supportive and independent

units. Another 469 we’ve got just recently opened — 232 in Squamish, 100

in Kamloops, 20 in Vanderhoof, 107 in Richmond, 73 in Mission. These are

projects that have already opened and people have moved in. I think it’s

also important to note that by the end of the year, we expect 141 units

plus 115 supportive units for seniors from Chalmers Lodge.

That’s why we’re making these investments. We know that as the

population starts to age, the need is great.

[4:50 p.m.]

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

There were a lot of numbers there. I’m not that quick with my

math, but I don’t believe that the numbers I heard make much of a dent

in a wait-list of 11,000.

I would like to know if the minister has any targets and timelines

for actually reducing those wait-lists in a more substantive way than

114 and 115 units.

Hon. R. Kahlon: This question is a rather broad one, given the rest of them were

pretty pointed.

That’s why the Homes for People strategy was launched. Our focus,

our goal, is not only ensuring that young people can continue to live in

this province but also that our seniors have the housing that is

desperately needed.

That’s why there’s a big focus on getting more supply on the

market. That’s why there’s a big focus on getting more units across the

province, not just in some parts of our community. That’s why the pieces

of the strategy are as focused as they are. We know that every time

units come online, it benefits everyone, in particular,

seniors.

That’s why the strategy was launched. It was to target all

populations that need it, and we know seniors need that

support.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister. I don’t believe that was broad. The

question was specific, in terms of the size of the wait-list.

Currently the minister says…. At December 31, there were just

under 11,000 seniors waiting for subsidized housing. What will that

target be next year and the year after that? How will the minister

achieve a reduction in that wait-list?

[4:55 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I would say…. This is why we’ve been doing the work we have, and

this is why we increased the budget so significantly when we formed

government. In fact, a lot more now, because these lists were large for

many years. We know that the challenge of the pandemic has only

grown.

It’s scary to think about where we would have been if we hadn’t

made all those investments when we formed government. We know we’re

decades behind when it comes to building the housing we need. B.C.

Housing does a lot of work to prioritize people on the list on highest

needs, and often they’re seniors that have needs. That’s why many of the

initiatives part of the Homes for People strategy has are going to

support seniors.

I reflect on the woman, Kathleen Higgins, in my riding who was

fortunate to be able to get her property rezoned a couple of years ago

and to tear her home down and build four units on that one parcel so

that she could live there and have her kids in all the other units with

their families, so that she could age in place and have the support she

needed as she aged. We’re hoping that those that have the means and are

property-rich but maybe don’t have the cash flow will see opportunities

in those types of measures.

In the meantime, we continue to provide additional supports. As I

highlighted to the member, we’ve got a lot of units that have opened up

and a considerable amount more that will be funded because of the

increased investments that we’ve made in the budget.

But it’s a challenge. It’s a challenge across the country. All

provinces are facing this challenge. I would say Ontario and B.C. more

so than other provinces.

We’re a desirable place for seniors in particular. A lot of

seniors are coming here to retire. We’ve got record-number migration

numbers, which is good because we need people for the economy. It also

comes with challenges. So we need to ensure that not only are we

building the units; we’re also incentivizing the private sector to build

more units, more supply on the market, because we know more rental units

on the market and more units period on the market will help alleviate

some of the pressures we’re seeing being felt by not only seniors but

young people, young families across British Columbia.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister for the answer. I’m not sure I actually

found the answer in there, so I’m going to poke around this just a

little bit more.

As the minister was talking about all the money that’s been

invested and how this government is doing so much better than previous

governments, I realized…. March 31 of 2022, there were 9,614 applicants

waiting. The minister told me earlier that there are currently, at

December 31, just under 11,000 on the wait-list for subsidized seniors

housing. I can tell you even the March number was a 10 percent increase

over the previous year, and it was a 50 percent increase from five years

ago. So there’s been a significant increase in the actual wait-lists in

the past five years. That does not, to me, look like a success story by

this government.

I’ll ask again…. Actually, I’m going to change this to wait times,

because being on the list and then actually how long it is taking

someone to get off of the list is important. The average wait time, as I

understand it, to secure a unit is currently three years. My

understanding, however, is that about 1,600, or 17 percent, of those

seniors who are on that wait-list currently have been waiting five or

more years.

What is this minister going to set as a target for the reduction

of these wait-lists and ensure that it does not continue to increase at

the rate that it’s currently increasing, notwithstanding us having gone

through a pandemic?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I appreciate the member helped answer some of the questions she

had with the ending of her question, which is that we’re dealing with

global inflation that’s having major impacts not only in British

Columbia, not only in Canada but across North America. Every

jurisdiction I’ve had a chance to speak to talks about the same

pressures they’re facing. I had the opportunity, as the Minister of

Economic Recovery and Innovation, to travel to other jurisdictions —

Dublin, the Netherlands, London.

[5:00 p.m.]

Every jurisdiction is dealing with similar challenges that we are,

with over 6 percent interest rates, inflation rates, a rapid increase in

interest rates. All of this is having an impact on people, and we fully

acknowledge that that’s the case.

Again, this is why we’re making the investments we are to build

the housing that people need. Even the strategies around, in some cases,

allowing four units on larger single-family lots — all of that is to

increase the supply to ensure that more housing opportunities are

available for people.

So yes, it’s important for seniors, and we have, certainly, an

aging population. Our natural population will start declining by 2030,

which means we’ve got a lot more folks coming to retirement, and we have

a desirable place in British Columbia, warmer than certainly other parts

of the country, and we have more people coming here. All of this leads

to the challenges that we’re dealing with now.

Now, the member wasn’t here before, so I won’t pick on her per se,

but there was, for a long time, an opposition party whose answer to

housing was: “If you can’t afford it, go somewhere where you can afford

it.” Certainly that is not our belief. Our belief is that we want people

to stay here. We want to be able to build the affordable housing, and it

takes years for that housing to come online. We’re starting to see those

units come online — significant investments.

I’ve also been talking to my counterparts across the country.

We’re urging the federal government to get back in the game, because we

know, in order to address the challenges…. Even if you look at the

shortfall over the last 20 years of housing, if you add up the lack of

units from the trend line that was there before, we would be really

close to the amount of housing units we need if those investments

continue to happen. So our goal, our strategy, all the work we’re doing

is to lower that pressure that not only seniors are facing but that

everyone is facing.

I can say that the challenges we’re facing, again, are being faced

by jurisdictions around the country. The historic level of funding we’re

putting in for housing is part of the solution. I think part of the

solution will be B.C. Builds. I’ll be looking forward to being able to

announce more of that later in the year, by using government lands to

build truly affordable housing not just for those that are low income,

that need low-income housing, but also for those that are middle-income

earners who are finding it challenging to find the housing.

That’s why the strategy is as bold as it is, because we know the

challenge has grown so much in the pandemic, and we need action to

respond to that.

K. Kirkpatrick: I just checked, and it’s April 17, 2023. It’s not April 17, 2016.

I believe that we are talking about actions of the current government

and what is happening and what the result is of the actions of the

current government.

I also understand the minister is not the global Minister of

Housing. He is the Minister of Housing for the province of British

Columbia. So in answer to a question in terms of why we are not being

successful in meeting the targets and doing what we need to do to

support seniors and subsidized housing here, making an excuse about the

pandemic and economic issues in other parts of the world is not

satisfying, I believe, for those 11,000 seniors who are currently

sitting on those lists.

I’ll go back to the question I asked. I do appreciate it felt a

bit like we were reading press releases there in terms of the housing

strategy, but does the minister have targets for reducing wait-lists and

wait times for subsidized housing?

[5:05 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I’m sure the member will be happy to hear that the press releases

are similar to the words we actually use, because we believe it. It’s a

reflection of what this government believes — that housing should be

available to everyone.

Again, the member refers to 2016, and it’s not 2016. Well, often

housing takes five, six years to come online. Imagine if those

investments in 2016, not to mention from 2002 to 2016, were made. Every

time a young person is provided housing on campus, it takes pressure off

the community. So I think it’s important to put that in context. It’s

important to put the context that we’re dealing with global inflation.

B.C. is not isolated in this challenge.

Now, the member wants to know how we’re going to get people

housed. I’ll refer to what we’ve been talking about for the last few

hours, which is…. That’s why we’re funding 8,538 units in 2023-24.

That’s why we’re funding 8,986 units in ’24-25. That’s why we’re funding

5,863 in ’25-26. That’s why we’re investing billions of dollars into

housing. We know it’s a critical question.

We can go back and forth about different priorities of

governments. I’ll just say that we, on this side, realized that housing

is critical to a person’s health. Today the member for Kelowna was doing

a statement on housing and talked about how important housing is for

health, for mental health, for all these pieces. Yes, that’s why we’re

making these investments.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

Does the minister have any targets at all for reducing wait-lists

or wait times for subsidized housing for seniors?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Targets that we are setting for housing are 8,538 units to be

built in 2023-24, 8,986 in ’24-25 and 5,863 in…. I can go on. I think

the member has these numbers, but these are not just targets. These are

targets with money. That’s been lacking for a long time, but it’s in the

budget.

I can repeat the numbers over and over again, but I know the

member has them.

K. Kirkpatrick: Unless I’m really not understanding what the minister is saying,

I’m hearing the minister answer my question with information about other

things. So my question….

If I’m incorrect, and these numbers that are being quoted, 8,000

each year…. If that is specific as a response to how we are going to

reduce wait-lists and wait times for seniors for subsidized housing,

then I’m clearly misunderstanding what the minister is

saying.

Can the minister confirm that he is giving me an answer about

reducing wait-lists and wait times for seniors in subsidized

housing?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I can tell the member that what I’m sharing with the member is the

amount of units we’re directly funding each year that will help seniors,

that will help young families, single moms, because we know the need is

great.

I can repeat the numbers again. There are significant numbers.

It’s a significant amount of funding that the Premier has committed to

build this housing. But we’re doing it to address the challenges we

have. Our goal is to reduce that list, and it’s going to happen by not

only having targets, but also having dollars that go with the targets to

show how we’re going to make this a reality.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister. My understanding of the answer to that

question is: “No, we do not have targets at all for reducing wait-lists.

No, there are not targets for reducing wait times for subsidized

housing.”

So with that as my understanding of the answer to the question, I

will move to a clarifying question on the SAFER supports program. We

talked a while ago about SAFER supports, and I am hoping to get a bit of

clarification. The two pieces of clarification are that the B.C. Housing

targets are reduced for 2023. They’re also reduced by 7,000

recipients.

[5:10 p.m.]

At the same time, I understand the minister has said that a number

of changes are being made to the SAFER program. If these changes are

being made to the SAFER program, will it not have a more immediate

effect on the number of those seniors who will be eligible to receive

those supports?

My apologies, Minister. I realized, as I was saying that, that it

was getting a bit convoluted.

The question. The B.C. Housing service plan has, for the following

year, also a reduction of 7,000 recipients for SAFER. My question is:

because there are currently changes being made to that program, will it

not be a year or will it be longer than a year before they actually have

impact and more seniors will be able to take advantage of the SAFER

subsidy?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Maybe the member can point us to where the numbers are coming

down, because I’m looking at the B.C. Housing service plan, page 11 near

the bottom, and it shows, for 2022-23, 33,000; for 2023-24, 35,000. Then

for the following year, 36,000; the following year, 38,000.

Perhaps it might be easier if the member can point us to exactly

where the number is coming from.

K. Kirkpatrick: I am going to have to wait a moment and come back to that, then,

so I can go through this. If I might, I will move to the next question

and then come back to that.

With the changes to the SAFER program, can I confirm with the

minister if that will include a change to the income thresholds? Also,

will this be tied…? Will the rents be tied to inflation?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I’m unable to answer the question because the review is happening

right now. Our staff are going through the report. Certainly, once we

have that answer, it will be more public. But I just can’t share that

information at this point.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister for his answer. I just want to make sure

I’ve got everything there. We’ll move on from seniors.

Housing starts have largely plateaued and have only seen a 1

percent growth since 2017. To what does the minister attribute this

stall?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I assume the member is talking about just housing starts overall.

The numbers for housing starts — 2015, it was 31,446; in 2016, it was

41,843; in 2017, 43,664.

[5:15 p.m.]

In 2018, 40,857; in 2019, 44,900; in 2020, I think people will

understand, it went down to 37,734, in the pandemic. In 2021, 47,607; in

2022, 46,721. I’m not sure where the member is getting the numbers

dropping down, but these are the numbers that I can share.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

Rents are obviously a huge issue here in British Columbia. We have

the highest rents in Canada. Rents have fallen across the U.S. due to a

crush of new supply coming on the market. Why hasn’t this supply come

online in B.C. during that same time period?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Just talking about rentals coming online, if we were to go back,

say, ten years, the rental starts were about 2,357 a year. In 2022, it

was 16,605. Dramatically, we see an increase of housing starts for

rentals, a dramatic increase. That’s a positive thing. We want to

continue to see that happen. We know, though, that with interest rates

going up the way that they have, that will have some pressure on some

housing starts when it comes to rentals in the next year or two. Those

are historic-level numbers that we’ve seen.

Our goal…. Ppart of the strategies, of course, is to find ways for

more rentals to be built through other measures as well, whether that’s

removing the restriction for secondary suites, because we know those are

rental suites that will come on the market; looking to pilot a program

to help support those that would like to create a secondary suite but

don’t have the financial means to do so; or looking at policy changes

around single-dwelling lots so that when a house is torn down, it’s not

just one house going down, but there are other opportunities for more

rental units going on the property. All these policy pieces are there to

encourage more rental starts, because we need them.

The second part of the member’s question was: why is the rent

still high? Rents were the highest in the country in 2016 as well — I’m

sure the member will know that — and they remain the highest. But if you

look at the population growth that we have in British Columbia, over

100,000 people are coming to British Columbia every year. Again, we need

people. That’s great. But it means that we need a lot more housing

starts than even the record numbers that we have here.

That’s what the Homes for People strategy is about: dramatically

increasing the amount of housing starts, supporting the market to be

able to create more rental units, and, at the same time, make historic

investments in subsidized supportive housing, housing for seniors and

housing for students. We’re trying to do both at the same time, given

the challenge that we have in front of us.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister for that.

In 2019, the Minister of Housing at the time said that supply,

supply, supply wasn’t the answer. I just would like to confirm that the

minister now in government is now taking a different

approach.

Hon. R. Kahlon: I would say that you have to look at both the demand and supply,

and that’s what we’ve done.

[5:20 p.m.]

Whether it was the speculation tax that came in on homeowners that

had homes but chose to not rent them, chose to leave them empty…. It’s

hard to think, as an average person, who in their right mind would own a

$1 million-plus home and decide to not get any income from it and just

leave it unrented.

There are 20,000 of those units that came back onto the market.

There are a lot of policy decisions that were made before to help

encourage more units to come back on the market, and I think it’s

important to note that with the historic numbers that we’ve seen come to

British Columbia, we need more supply. The strategy here reflects both

demand measures but also reflects supply measures. I think that’s what a

good housing strategy should have.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister for that confirmation in policy

change.

During budget consultations, the B.C. Non-Profit Housing

Association indicated that for every six homes proposed, just one gets

approved. Why is this the case?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I’ll first start by saying the

summary from the member across the

way is not accurate, but we could play this game all day long, so I

won’t go further into it.

The member shares a quote from a B.C. not-for-profit. I don’t have

that quote. I don’t know what context that quote came in. Perhaps the

member can share an

article or something where that’s referred

to.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

For the minister, I’ll read the quote from NPHA. “Under the last

call for proposals under the community housing fund, which is the

biggest program in the Building B.C. program, in 2021 applications for

some 14,000 permanently affordable homes were submitted. With available

funding, about 2,400 of these were approved.” Essentially, for every six

homes proposed, one home gets funded.

Hon. R. Kahlon: I think the member would agree that every proposal is not

necessarily the most viable proposal. You have to go through the numbers

to make sure that the project is viable, and those reviews happened. I

would say that that’s why we’ve dramatically increased the

funding.

The Premier made a commitment that he was going to, if he became

Premier, dramatically increase the funding. That’s why the funds have

dramatically increased to be able to get more of those projects online.

I think that’s why we’re able to see 8,943 units right now that are in

progress. It’s because of those investments, and it’s because of those

opportunities.

I hope that answers the member’s questions. I can’t verify 100

percent whether that calculation that was quoted is correct because I’m

not sure where the person got that number. But I would say that

proposals come. Those that are viable proceed and, of course, require

funding. That’s why our funding has been increased so much, so that we

can find the projects that are viable and get them online.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister. Those numbers came from the NPHA during

budget consultations, so I’m quite comfortable that they are

accurate.

[5:25 p.m.]

I don’t know if the minister would disagree with that, but if I

can just repeat a piece of this and kind of form a thread from here. I’m

going on the basis that this is accurate, to a degree, enough that it

makes sense. In 2021, applications for some 14,000 permanently

affordable homes were submitted. With available funding, about 2,400 of

these were approved. That was in 2021.

My understanding, from what the minister is saying, is…. The

Premier has committed to a significant increase in funding, which, I

presume, under the next call for proposals, is….

Will we still have that same ratio — for every six homes, one home

gets funded — or is there a target to increase that? Does the minister

believe that these additional funds, which the Premier has committed to,

are going to make a dent in that? If you’ve got 14,000 shovel-ready

projects or close to, you’re leaving a lot of housing on the table, so

to speak, if these are not getting funded.

Hon. R. Kahlon: I think the member and I can agree that the CHF program is a

fantastic program. That’s why we advanced it, and that’s why we’ve got

significant dollars in the program.

I can share a couple of things with the member. That’s why we’ve

added an additional $224 million — to address the cost pressures that

we’ve had with the programs. That’s why we’ve got an additional $1.36

billion — so that, over ten years, we can build another additional 6,000

units. It’s so that when good projects, which are viable, come forward,

we’re able to support them.

[J. Tegart in the chair.]

The not-for-profits do a fantastic job. That’s why we’re

supporting them on other pieces as well, like the rental protection

fund, half a billion dollars so that the not-for-profit sector can

ensure that more rental buildings can stay in their hands. We know that

they’re a vital part of the solution to ensuring that we can have

affordability in our housing as we go forward.

That’s why all the pieces are there. It’s a fantastic program.

That’s why we’re increasing the dollars. We see good, viable projects

coming forward, and we want to make sure we can fund them.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister.

May I ask the Chair for a five-minute break?

The Chair: Yes. We will take a five-minute break.

The committee recessed from 5:29 p.m. to 5:36 p.m.

[J. Tegart in the chair.]

The Chair: We’ll call the committee back to order.

K. Kirkpatrick: I needed to gather myself for a few moments. I was starting to

doubt my memory here in terms of some of the numbers that we were

talking about with respect to the SAFER program. I have figured out

where I got that information from. I had referred to the targets for

SAFER being reduced by 7,000, and the minister had asked where I was

coming up with that. And I do have a question.

I’ve got two service plans here for B.C. Housing. One of the

service plans is the ’22-23 to ’24-25, and the current service plan,

’23-24 to ’25-26. If you look at the performance measures for number of

households receiving rental assistance through SAFER, RAP and

Canada–British Columbia housing benefit….

Do you want me to give you the page numbers? Okay. I realize I’m

not doing that.

B.C. Housing itself has actually decreased, gone back the previous

year’s target and decreased from 40,000 to 33,000 in terms of households

receiving rental assistance. Can the minister explain why they did

that?

Hon. R. Kahlon: I would refer the member to, again, the B.C. Housing service plan,

on page 12, third paragraph. B.C. Housing actually lays out why that

is.

I’ll read it into the record: “The 2022-23 forecast has been

adjusted based on current trends. The impact of changes in the rental

market since 2020-21 combined with the static eligibility requirements

and rent ceilings for SAFER and RAP has resulted in a decrease in

enrolments for both programs.” I won’t read the rest of it, but the

answer’s referred right in the service plan.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister. I appreciate that. I’m not going to

revisit the specific SAFER questions now. I just wanted to make sure

that I had my numbers correct.

I would now like to move to a topic which I believe is one of the

favourite things that the minister likes to talk about. I would like to

ask about the B.C. Housing audit and the transparency around that. There

has been a delay, obviously, in releasing this. It has been with the

minister for a number of weeks now. Why has it taken so long, or why is

it taking so long, to release the audit?

[5:40 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: The member has heard me speak about this many, many, many times,

so some of the answer will be repetitive for the member. It is our

intention to release as much of the report as legally possible. We are

following the process that needs to be followed in order to release the

report.

Something new for the member. I can share that I have met and

notified the Privacy Commissioner of our intentions and the process

we’re using. Again, we’re going to follow the complete process, as we

have to, as legally required. At some such point that we have met our

legal obligations, we will release as much of the report as

possible.

K. Kirkpatrick: I have some confusion with respect to the legal requirements. The

minister has said that, and the Premier has said that as well. I would

just like to have a better understanding of specifically what you’re

referring to. We know that

section 25 of FOIPPA actually allows this

information to be released to the public, as long as it’s in the public

interest. It does not have to be redacted, and we would hope that it’s

not redacted. I am guessing that with respect to this minister

contacting the Privacy Commissioner, that was with respect to an intent

to redact a significant portion of the audit.

Could the minister provide more detail on what the actual legal

requirement is that he is referring to? I’ll just leave it at that, the

legal requirement that he is referring to.

Hon. R. Kahlon: The process for release of the information stipulated by the

Freedom of Information and Privacy Act…. The act includes requirement

that a public body must give sufficient notice to third parties before

the release of any information.

K. Kirkpatrick: Is it discretionary upon the minister to determine what that

amount of time is? There is nothing set out specifically in terms of

what is an appropriate amount of time for a response from third

parties?

Hon. R. Kahlon: It’s critically important that we follow legal advice and that the

process is fair, so those are the requirements on myself before anything

is released.

K. Kirkpatrick: Can I confirm that you then have received legal advice in terms of

how you are able to release this information?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Yes, I can confirm that I have gotten legal advice, and again, I

have notified the Privacy Commissioner and shared with the commissioner

our intention of how we’re going to release the report.

[5:45 p.m.]

K. Kirkpatrick: As the minister will know, and we don’t know what the

recommendations are right now…. Will the minister commit to acting on

these resulting recommendations and implementing any changes

required?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thank you to the member for the question.

I think it’s important to highlight that the first report that was

done last year laid out a lot of, I guess, actions we should be taking

to ensure that B.C. Housing can function in the best way possible. A lot

of work has been happening to ensure that.

The new chair and the new board have been working very hard with

the B.C. Housing team to ensure that all the pieces in the first report

are enacted. Of course, anything that comes from this report will be

something that we take very seriously as we move forward.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you to the minister. I may come back to the audit, but at

this point, I’m going to begin to ask some questions on the Homes for

People plan.

Government has abandoned its ten-year housing plan halfway

through, and now we have a new plan, which is a refresh strategy. Yet

housing has never been less affordable than it is today, under this NDP

government. After six years of this government, can the minister tell me

when we are actually going to see results on affordability?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Now it feels like we’re getting to question period.

I will share with the member that there are 43,000 people who have

homes now because of our first plan. They’ve seen action. They’re

actually getting affordable units because of the work we’ve done. We are

on track to meet our goal of 114,000.

I’ll get ahead of the member, because I know where the member is

going to go and say: “Well, you’ve only built a certain amount, and a

lot of it is from policy.” Well, when our strategy was initially

launched, we always were clear that it was going to be direct builds,

direct funding, working with the private sector, working with the

federal government as well as policy changes.

In fact, I can share with the member that in the 2021 estimates,

the hon. member for Peace River North, in fact, raised this very

question. If the member doesn’t believe me, perhaps she can talk to the

member.

He said: “The minister did confirm for me what we thought, which

is that a portion — a good portion, maybe — of those are going to be in

municipalities, possibly brought on by the private sector through

partnership, regulation, zoning, whatever tools will be, I guess, at a

local government level, to facilitate that.” He also went on to confirm,

talking about 114,000 units “that the government has announced,

promised, that they will have in place by 2027.” So, “The minister did

confirm for me what we thought, which was that a portion — a good

portion, maybe — of those are going to be municipalities, possibly

brought on by the private sector partnership…” and policy and other

things.

It was understood by the critic at the time that the 114,000 was

going to be all those pieces together. Again, I know that it’s easy to

say the speculation tax, 20,000 units. I know some people don’t like it,

but it’s 20,000 units that were not on the market, not available for

rent. Now we have a mansion in the Premier’s riding where there are five

students living in it because of the speculation tax. That’s the case in

communities around the province.

We’re on track to reach our 114,000. I would say that we now know

there are additional headwinds that we have to face. There are

additional challenges coming out of the pandemic that we have to face.

That’s why