Manitoba Hansard — 1 May 2001 (Sitting 22, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-22

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba . ·- . · .. , . .... \�··�� ·' .... 4>, DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. Ll No. 22- 1:30 p.m., Thesday, May 1, 2001

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASIITON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARREIT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Politiul Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

10 33 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 1, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): It is my duty to inform the House that Mr. Speaker is un avoidably absent. Therefore, in accordance with the statutes, I would ask the Deputy Speaker to please take the Chair. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Pan Am Clinic Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): I rise on a matter of privilege and will have a substantive motion at the end of my comments. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, there are two preconditions to the issue of a matter of privilege, one being timel iness and the other demonstrating a prima facie case. Mr. Deputy Speaker, with respect to timelin ess, the document which becomes so very critical to this matter was only made available to the public this afternoon at 12 :30, and I would like to table, Mr. Deputy Speaker, three copies of it. This is from the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority with the analysis with respect to the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is with great regret that I have to rise on this matter of privilege because I have always bel ieved that, although there is some liber ty taken by all of us in this House as active pol iticians, if the public is going to have a thorough debate on the issues of the day, it has to rely on those who control the information, particularly within government, that being the ministers of the Crown, to be as forthright as possible in the information they bring forward. Having worked with the Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) and having known him for many years, I am quite disappointed in this situation, and it is with regret that I have to rise today with this particular motion of privilege. Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you will peruse Hansard you will find that on page 404 for April II, 200 I, in answer to a question from the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) as to what the public were purchasing for $4 mil lion in the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic, the minister made very clear in his answer, and I quote: It was for the purchase of the build ing, the equipment and the surgical suites.

On numerous occasions, we put many questions to him asking for more information, giving him the opportunity, as is our duty and responsibility as members of the Opposition, to question public expenditures, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We asked him on many occasions to tell us the detai ls of this particula r sale. One of the few details that the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) provided to the public and to members of the House, perhaps maybe the only detail, was that public money was being used to purchase a building, equipment and surgical suites.

At no time did this minister indicate to this House, to the people of Manitoba, that there was more to the purchase. For us on this side of the House, in fact, for all members of this Assembly who are not part of the Treasury bench, for us to do our job to ensure public accountability it is important that we rely, or be able to rely on accurate information being provided by ministers of the Crown. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, if you peruse Hansard over the last few Question Periods in which this has been an issue you will find that, on numer ous occasions, we gave this minister the oppor tunity to tell us what he had purchased. He chose not to assign a value, but he did cle arly indicate that we were purchasing build ings, equipment and surgical suites for the $4 milli on. I would also like to table the press release issued by the Minister of Health, I bel ieve it was on the 2nd of Apr il, 200 1, when this minister announced the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic.

In it he indicates that Manitoba was buying a building, equipment and operating rooms. So the minister, in his public pronouncements, has been very clear. In fact, the only detail that he has really provided other than the $4-million

10 34 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 purchase price was that it was for a building, equipment and operating rooms. * (13: 35) In the document that I tabled, the PricewaterhouseCoopers analysis, I would refer you to page 2 of the actual document not the executive

summary, but under

section 2, the acquisition, under the heading "Deal Structure" and I would refer you to points one, two, three down, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It clearly indicates, and I quote: The purchase of the good will of Pan Am and all business and financial records by the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority for a purchase price of approximately $700,000 to be paid in equal instalments over three years, contingent upon each Pan Am partner continuing to practise at the Pan Am Clinic. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, from the minister's own document, he is cle arly indicating that this purchase included good will, financial records, and was part of ensuring for that bonus the continued practice of the physicians at Pan Am. Members on this side of the House have continually given this minister the opportunity to tell us the components of this deal. He has not told us the truth, that the deal was larger than buildings, equipment and operating theatres. From his own documents, we know that there was $700,000 for good will. The minister had opportunity to tell us that.

The minister could have said one of those components was good will. He could have told this House that they were buying an active business, but he did not do that. He said very clearly that they were buying build ings, equipment and operating theat res. Members opposite, including the Premier (Mr. Doer), may at this time now be thinking- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The Oppo sition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, this is a very serious matter which we are dealing with today, and I do believe all members should be listening. Mr. Deputy Speaker: We encourage all mem bers to please maintain the order, but I do not think there is a point of order. *** Mr. Praznik: The Premier (Mr. Doer), the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) and members of the Government may make light of this, but one of the key fundamental principles of our par liamentary system is ministerial accountability.

All members of this House have the right to expect that Cabinet ministers when they provide an answer will be as accurate as possible and will not knowingly mislead members of this House. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Health is Minister of Health. He had access to the detai ls of this arrangement. He put out a press release in his name. One of the only questions he answered on the subject was to establish what we were buying: building, equipment and oper ating rooms. Never once did this Minister of Health tell this Assembly, as is our right to expect, that the deal included the purchase of good will.

This is a very serious matter. Our parliamentary system works because ministers can be held accounta ble. It is the job of Oppo sition to question, particularly the expenditure of the public's money. It is not the money of the Minister of Health, it is not the money of the Premier, it is the money of the people of Manitoba. For us to question their expenditure, to ask the tough questions, we are required to have accurate information. As I have said, in his own Pricewaterhouse report provided to the public today, it clearly indicates that part of the purchase of $700,000 was towards good will.

It does not say assets, it does not say operating theatre s, it says good will. If the members opposite believe in this parl iamentary democracy, if the Premier (Mr. Doer) stands by his words that he believes in open government and accountability, then surely to goodness his minister or he could have stood in this House when asked and tell us all of the components on which public money was being spent. If we are to do our job on behalf of the people of questioning the actions of the Govern ment, their expenditure of public money, we

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 35 have to be able to rely on the information that they provide because they control it. It is in their control.

If they are going to mislead this House and deli berately misle ad this House then we cannot do our job, and doing our job is essential to holding a government accountable on behalf of the people. * (13 :40) So this Minister of Health and this administration by not telling us the truth, all of the components of this particula r deal, have made it difficult if not impossible for us to do our job which is a legitima te job in the public and democratic parl iamentary process to hold the Government accountable. Members opposite may laugh, the Member for Interlake (Mr.

Nevakshonoft) and others may make comments, but no government should be left on its own without being held accountable. We need to know that ministers when they bring information to this House will be accurate . I would move, seconded by the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray), THAT the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) did break the privil eges of all members by misle ading this House when he said, and I quote: when we announced the agreement in principle to pur chase the Pan Am centre, it was to purchase the building, the equipment and the surgical suites.

Both in this House on April 11 , 2001, and in the press release of April 2, 2001, when he announced the agreement in principle to purchase the Pan Am centre the minister failed to inform members of this House that he was paying $700,000 to purchase an ongoing business, the good will of that business, and that this matter be theref ore referred to a Committee on Privileges and Elections for the committee's consideration. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Before recognizing any other member to speak, I would remind the House that contributions at this time by honou rable members are to be limited to stri ctly relevant comments as to whether the alle ged matter of privilege had been raised at the earliest opportunity and whether a prima facie case has been established. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think it is extraordinary that members opposite are trying to twist and tum in the wind with respect to this because they cannot find legiti mate arguments to make.

As they em brace the America n private system, they will look for anything. What else would answer the fact that this Member for Lac du Bonnet, when questioning us on the deal- Mr. Deputy Speaker: A point of order being raised, plea se state your point of order, the Opposition House Leader. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): I am sure that you clarified to this House that they were to be dealing with whether this was a prima facie case or the time limits. This member is just atte mpting to create more debate within this House, and he is provoking debate .

He is only trying to cover up the issue. Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the same point of order? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the member was characterizing a number of com ments. I am attempting to deal with the prima facie case by virtue of dealing with a whole series of comments on this issue by both the Member for Lac du Bonnet and myself dealing with this issue. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Our rule states that it shall be limited to whether the issue had been raised on time and whether there is a prima facie case. The honourable minister, please confine yourself to those two matte rs. *** Mr.

Chomiak: Numerous questions were asked by members opposite following the announcement of the agreement in principle. There was an agreement in principle, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when the deal was announced by an agreement in principle. Following that, there was a series of discussions and questions back and forth. In addition, we indicated that the Government, pending final signing of this agreement, was doing due dil igence. That due diligence was released today. That due dil igence which points out that, through the

I0 36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May I, 200 I review they concluded the base financial case for the existing facility, the acquisition is economic and fair. That is what that due dil igence indi cated, that the deal was economic and fair. * (I3: 45) Mr. Deputy Speaker, when I was asked in this Chamber by members opposite about this issue, let me quote what I said in the House, in Hansard, page 404, April II : As we indicated when we made this announcement to agree to the agreement in principle, we were finalizing due dil igence and the information will be provided to the House and to the members opposite.

Later on, I said: Unlike what was done during the previous decade of deals like Smart Health, deals like Connie Curran, deals like frozen food, I indicated at the press conference- Mr. Deputy Speaker: A point of order being raised, the Opposition House Leader. The Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do believe that you have already called this minister to order once. He should be referring to matters that are already before the House, and he should not be provoking debate. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable House Leader, on the same point of order?

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the issue of points of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would you please provide some instruction to the House as to whether points of order are going to be recognized when a matter of privilege is before the House. Mr. Deputy Speaker: There has been a ruling by Speaker Hickes, that if the point of order is relevant to the matter of privilege, it can be raised. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is that on a point of order? Mr. Chomiak: No. Some Honou rable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

I have to give a ruling on the point of order raised. The rule is clear. Comments should be limited to timel iness of raising the issue and to the matter of prima facie case. If the facts are relevant to the prima facie case, it should be clearly so. If it is not, then we are on a matter of order. *** Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the point of order? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have dealt with the point of order. I am recognizing the Minister of Health on the matter of privilege. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, if I can continue without interruption, I would hope, from the House Leader, and as I said on April II : We will be making all these materials avail able when we sign the final documents of the agreement. Mr. Deputy Speaker, prima facie, I indicated in this Chamber that documentation would be provided. We have documentation that we would provide on the final signing of this agreement. Further, members opposite said all kinds of things about this deal . It is very clear they did not know a lot of aspects of basic common sense of business. You have (

a) an ag reement in principle, (

b) one normally suspects that in a normal business transaction there are certain business assets and certain business good will that goes with the purchase. That is basic business sense. I am sorry that members opposite- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. * (13 :50)

May I, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 37 Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is a basic business practice, and I am sur prised. Maybe I am not so surprised that mem bers opposite are not aware of that. I stood up on many occasions in this House and have already quoted. [interjection] If the members opposite really took it seriously, I think they would listen to the response which only indicates that it is a tacti c. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is surpnsmg that when one tries to get one's point on the table, members opposite either drown it out or do not listen and that goes to the heart of this matter which is not a matter of privilege, which is a dispute over the facts and which is an atte mpt, in my view, by members opposite to try to make a point that they have not very effectively made in the House previously. In addition, I would like to say that we indicated (1) agreement in principle, (2) docu mentation would be provided both at the press conference and in this House.

We are in a posi tion where today the due dil igence was tabled. It was provided, something that never happened before, which is an indication of our forth rightness in providing this information of the public's money. At this time, Mr. Deputy Speaker, not only did the due diligence that was referred to by the member opposite indicate some of those factors, but it also said that the acquisition is economic and fair from a financial point of view to the WRHA, with a net benefit of $1. 2 million on this deal. So it is very clear that information was provided. The information was provided.

The member opposite is trying to make an issue, I believe, that he is stretc hing the rules in order to try to make a point. I think it is ironic. I think it is ironic that that same member who was circulating in the hallway last week on this issue, making spurious all egations, would have the gall to stand up in this House, the member who was quoted on CBC as saying the Premier (Mr. Doer) goes on regular fishing trips with Brian Post! and with several of the Hildahl brothers on a regular basis.

The member who said that, and is quoted on CBC, would have the gall to stand up and say we are not providing the information that we are providing, that we did provide, we promised to provide and will continue to provide. Mr. Laurendeau: On the issue of the matter of privilege, Mr. Deputy Speaker: a prima facie case and time limits.

On the prima facie case, let me read from the minister's own words: "as we indicated at the press conference when we announced the agreement in principle to pur chase the Pan Am centre, it was to purchase the building, the equipment and the surgical suites." This is part of the prima facie case. On the time limit s, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we received today a news release from this minister.

In this news release which we received today, and that is the timeliness on this matter, the purchase of the good will of the Pan Am and all business and financial records by the WRHA for purchase price of approximate ly $700,000, it is very clear that he spoke mistruths on the record in this House when he said that he did not pay anything for the good will. In today's words that he gave to us, it says that he paid $700,000 for good will. There is an agreement between him and his friends, and we can now see it clearly. There were also only two proposals put to get it.

We are waiting to see what else this minister has put on the record that was misinformation. Mr. Mackintosh: On the matter of privilege, I will be certai nly making the argument to you that this certainly is no matter of privilege. It does not come near it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and in fact it does not even come near a strong or valid argument. First of all, with regard to whether the matter was raised at the earliest opportunity, I will not deal with that.

I will move to the issue as to whether there could be some prima facie case here, and I want to talk about just how pathetic this presentation was by the former House Leader opposite. First of all, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Beauchesne's makes it clea r that a matter of privilege is a very, very special form of proce dure, a way of raising the atte ntion of the House to breaches of ways that the House does business and members are able to conduct the business on behalf of constituents.

Beauchesne's says that the privileges of Parliament are rights which are absolutely necessary, absolutely necessary for the due execution of its powers. Beauchesne's then goes on to say at Citation 31 "A dispute

10 38 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May I, 2001 arising between two Members, as to all egations of facts, does not fulfill the conditions of parlia mentary privileg e. " * (13 :55) Now what we have here is the rule book, and there was such concern on the part of members that have gone before us in this Assembly that they put also in the rule book that very same citation, that all egations of facts and disputes arising on those do not fulfil the conditions of parliame ntary privilege.

I will be making the case that what we are talking about here is simply some dispute and I would say a very weak dispute from members opposite. There are, of course, precedents. I believe the member opposite had a chance to put his best foot forward. We heard his best foot, and I believe now it is incumbent on us to deal with the matter of privilege, if it is indeed a serious matter, if it is, as the members opposite allege. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, first of all, there have been precedents in this House by Speaker Rocan, going back to 19 92-93 and to Speaker Dacquay in 19 95 that regarded matters coincidentally of all egations about the Minister of Health making information available outside the House.

What the rulings of this House have held is that, for example, Speaker Rocan said that the Minister of Health in dealing with the matter of all egations that the Minister of Health provided information to persons outside the House but withheld same information from members of the House-{interjection] Well, I think that is what the all egations were about, information being made in the House and information being made outside the House which members opposite are saying somehow there was some disparity. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I wonder if the members opposite actual ly believe this is a serious matter because al l I hear are the cackles over there. One thing has been said over and over again in this House in Question Period over the last week or two and that is the Minister of Health saying that the full detai ls of this arrangement would be made known to Manitobans and members opposite.

I want to quote, for example, on April II, the minister said: "As we indicated when we made this announcement to agree to the agreement in principle ... we were finalizing due diligence and that information will be provided to the House and to the member opposite, " referring to the Member for Charleswood. "I hope she will read it carefully when it is done and that will be shortly." He then went on to say: "as I indicated at the press conference, we will be making all these materials available when we sign the final documents of the agreement. I hope the member will have an opportunity to review them.

We will have a discussion at that time." All we have heard is an openness, an agreement to fully disclose all aspects of the agreement, to table the documents, not do something behind closed doors like we had with SmartHealth, not like with frozen food, but to be entirely forthcoming to Manitobans and members opposite. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what we have are alleg ations now that somehow the Minister of Health got up and misled the House. First of all, the motion on the matter of privilege alleges that the minister misled the House. That would not, even if proven true be a matter of privilege.

It is not a matter of privilege. Perhaps deli berately misle ading, intending to mislead, but misleading the House has never in the history of this institution been anything near a matter of privilege, and then going on to complain that the minister failed to inform members. All we heard was his agreement to inform members fully, fully, fully and he has done that today.

I want to just conclude that if there are to be all egations made about misleading the House, it is incumbent on the Opposition or the person all eging that so-called breach of privilege to show clear evidence, prima facie evidence that there was a deliber ate attempt to misl ead and indeed it has required in the past, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as you well know, essentially an admission from the minister. What we have here is the complete opposite. We have an agreement to fully disclose and inform. There is no prima facie evidence whatsoever.

If members opposite want to continue to use matters of privilege to interrupt the proceedings

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 39 of this House, to use a matter of privilege rather than get into a debate in this House which there are plenty of opportunities to do so, I think that is unfortunate and I do not think that reflects well at all on their respect for the rules and the orderly conduct of the business of this Legislature . Thank you very much. * (1 4:00) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to support, on this occasion, the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik) because I think that there is, in this instance, a prima facie case, that this subject which has been intensively discussed and debated during Question Period over the last number of days, that there has been less than transparency, there has been clear intent here to put on the table a purchase price which was larger than the buildings, the surgical suites and the equipment. We now have an explanation for why the purchase price was so high, that there were things which were not revealed early on and which could have been revealed very easily. It is perhaps understandable why the Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) would want to hide this deli berate ly from us.

I think that, in part, this is a reflection of the fact that the present government and the Minister of Health do not really have a framework for what they are doing in health care; that the fundamental problem here is that we have a government which is taking over private clinics with a great deal of enthusiasm and excitement, as the minister has said yesterday; and that the logical extension of this policy which the minister is so enthusiastic about is the takeover of the dozens of other private clinics which exist in this province, a procedure and an approach which, quite frankly, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, does not make any sense. The illogical approach that the minister has taken is part of the reason that we have ended up in this circumstance where there are facts which have been hidden. I believe, as we saw yesterday, one of the things that happened here is that the minister does not have a clear framework for what he is doing. He does not have a clear framework for what he will do in terms of taking over an individual clinic. So we have the minister saying initially that he was going to buy a building, equipment and surgical suites.

Today, the minis ter is saying that he is going to buy not just building, equipment and surgical suites but good will, and provide incentives for people to keep on working there because he is concerned that if he did not provide some financial incentives that people would be frightened about the Govern ment takeover and they might well go elsewhere, establish another clinic or leave the province. It is clear that the minister perhaps had some reason, because he has not got his act in order.

He has not had a framework for being somewhat deceptive in this instance, but that does not explain nor does it allow the minister to be deceptive to this Legislature in the fashion that he has been. Cle arly, what this Legislature needs is, starting at the top, a coherent framework for whether this is a government which is going to have a consistent policy of taking over all the private clinics or just do a little bit of ad hoc management as they seem to be doing. Is this a government which actually has a framework for how it is going to purchase a clinic and where it is and what it is going to pay for?

Clearly not. All this ad hockery that we are seeing is the underlying reason for this deceptive approach. It is sad to see the Government doing this and sorry that this has happened, but I think quite cle arly there is a prima facie case, and I hope that you will rule that there is, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Thank you. Mr. Deputy Speaker: A matter of privilege is a serious concern. Therefore it requires a little bit more study. I am going to take the matter under advisement to consult the authorities and will come back and return to the House with a ruling. PRESENTING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr.

Ron Schuler (Springfield): I beg to present the petition of D. Brotchie, G. Hanks, G. Heft and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister respon sible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Sel inger) con sider alternative routes for the additional 230 kV

10 40 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 and 500 kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Fred Anderson, George Waters, Scott Johnston and others praying that the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Brian Murphy, Linda Champagne, Earl Geddes and others praying that the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have read the petition and it conforms to the privileges and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honou rable Members: Yes. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Cl erk will read the petition.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Prov ince of Manitoba, humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a SOOkV and a 23 0kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particula r childhood leukemia, to the proximity of power lines.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUM BLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alter-native routes for the additional 230kV and SOOkV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Comm ittee of Supply Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Acting Chairperson): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain reso lutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Riel (Ms. Al lan), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to table both the Department of Education, Training and Youth and the Depart ment of Advanced Education Supplementary Information for the 200 1 -2002 Expenditure Estimate s. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill14-The Consumer Protection Amendment Act Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I move, seconded by the Minister of Education, Training and Youth (Mr. Caldwell), that leave be given to introduce Bill 14 , The Consumer Protection Amendment Act: Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia protection du consommateur. Motion presented. Mr. Smith: We are proposing amendments to the consumer protection provisions for Internet transactions that were passed in the last session. The amendments recognized that the 30-day grace period for del ivery of goods or services is not appropriate for travel products or other such similar time-sensitive purchases. The amendments propose that for these types of

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 41 Internet transactions, the buyer can cancel the agreement if the goods or services are not pro vided by the date agreed upon. The bill also makes a number of corrections to the French version of the consumer protection provisions for Internet transactions. Motion agreed to. * (14 :10 ) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Pan Am Clinic Purchase-Sur geon Bonuses Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have heard from the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) regarding the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic.

He indicated that the Government had bought the building, the equipment and the operating suites for $4 million. Today we have learned that a report released by the WRHA said in fact that the Government has paid $700,000 good will and a bonus for the surgeons of the clinic. Can the Premier please tell the House why his Government is paying a bonus of $700,000 for the surgeons, who will do the same work today once the deal is closed? They are getting paid the same amount today as they will after the deal is closed. Why is he spending $700,000 as a bonus? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, as was indicated at the initial announcement of the memorandum of agreement that was initiated by the health authority and announced I believe it was April 2, we indicated at that time, or they indicated at that time, that there was due dil igence that was performed. There was a further due diligence outside report conducted beyond that. I would quote members to the economic conclusions: The base case net present value of the five-year cash flow projections for the existing facility is $5. 17 5 mill ion, comparing the purchase price of 3- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I did not interrupt the Leader of the Opposition. Perhaps you can get some control on his members to listen to the answers. Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The report made public today indicates that the purchase price of $3,95 9,000 to this value indi cates a net benefit of the acquisition of $1. 216 million, which indicates that the acquisition is economic and fair from a financial- Some Honou rable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

I cannot hear the First Minister. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The acquisition of $1, 216 ,000, which indicates that the acquisition is economic and fair from a fi nancial point of view to the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, that is the conclusion of the due dil igence. The real rhetorical question is: Why did you not raise that issue in your question about the value of the deal that was made? Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Premier and the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) made it clear. They said they bought a building, equipment and operating suites for $4 milli on.

Never once did the Premier tell Manitobans that he was using their tax dolla rs to buy a business. As a matter of fact, I would like to quote what the Minister of Health said in Hansard. He said: When we announced the agreement in principle to purchase the Pan Am centre, it was to purchase the building, the equipment and the operating suites. Can the Premier ple ase explain to Mani tobans why he spent $700,000 of their hard earned tax dollars to give a bonus to a bunch of surgeons? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is not dealing with the conclusion made by the external report that deals with this

10 42 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 facility. The conclusion dealing with all the issues, the net benefit of the acquisition is $1 .26 million. It is economic and fair from a financial point of view to the people of Manitoba through the Wil}nipeg Regional Health Authority.

I would also point out, and something that I know members opposite do not care very much about, but today the health authority in dealing with this decision that they had made said that this external due dili gence verified the numbers that they had made prior to the announcement on April 2, the CEO of the Winnipeg Health Authority: We can direct people to the right place for care based on their needs. The savings to the hospital system will be an operating room time freed up from other procedures, allowing us to serve more patients.

Through this deal, the Pan Am Clinic will get expanded and updated facilities they want, and that will be assured at seeing enough patients to make the cost of the expansion recoverable. Mr. Deputy Speaker, by removing the cap, this also improves what should be the most important issue here, and that is the number of procedures available for patients in Manitoba. This is good for the patients of Manitoba. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the rambling diatribe of the Premier is somewhat hard to follow, so I will ask it very directly to him: Why is it that the Premier will not give Manitobans meaningful tax relief, but he will give $700,000 bonus to a bunch of surgeons? It is a direct question. Please answer it. Mr. Doer: A direct answer: We did give tax relief in the last budget. We reduced. That is the problem with members opposite. They cannot handle the truth . We reduced personal income tax by 10 percent. We reduced corporate income tax for the first time since the Second World War.

We reduced small business income tax and raised the threshold for small business. We reduced the property tax credits by $75 . We reduced four taxes. We also reduced by mil lions of dolla rs the tuition fees for Manitoba students, which in tum is a reduction. So that deals with the first part of his fallacious question. Dealing with the second part of his falla cious question, this is a net benefit of $1. 2 milli on. We will have more patients available for procedures, less procedures in hospitals, more procedures available in the clinic at less cost to the taxpayers. Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Cha rleswood): This Premier has avoided answering all these ques tions. He appears to be very embarrassed by this. I would like to ask the Minister of Health, who in his news release about the Pan Am Clinic and in this House has said repeate dly that for $4 million all he bought was the building, the equipment and the operating rooms. Today we learned that he misled Manitobans by not telling them that he also bought- Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Govern ment House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Opposition made a decision, before they came into this House today, to raise a so-called matter of privilege, which was nothing but an interruption and indeed an abuse of the rules. I would argue, having made that decision and to make the alleg ations that they did in the matter of privilege, they chose to take that route , and therefore, when the matter was raised and you took it under advisement, it is now improper for them to continue to ask questions about the matter essentially raised in the matter of privilege. It is under advisement. They cannot have it both ways. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. * (14 :20) Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the only matter that you are looking at on the matter of privilege was whether or not the Minister of Health deliber ately misled this House, which we belie ve he did. So it has no relevance to what the House Leader is bringing forward at this time.

May 1, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 43 Mr. Deputy Speaker: As I understand the rules of the House, if the subject matter or issue under the heading Matter of Privilege is precisely the same question, it cannot be asked again on another occasion. But it does not mean that other questions not precisely the same matter that is taken into consideration, it can still be asked. But it does not mean if the member's question is precisely the same and it is ruled that she cannot ask it, she can still ask other questions not precisely on the same question.

An Honourable Member: Conrad, does that mean she gets called a liar? Mr. Deputy Speaker: I do not use that word in the House because it is unparliamentary to call anyone a liar. This is precisely the same ques tion; therefore, it is already under advisement, and she can proceed to ask other questions. Pan Am Clinic Purchase-Surgeon Bonuses Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): would like to ask the Minister of Health if he could tell us what right the Doer government has to spend hard-earned taxpayers' money on paying good will? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the fund will be paid over three years, conditional on the partners' continuing involvement in the clinic and a non-competition clause. The $700,000 divided amongst 11 partners over three years averages to $42,000 per partner per year. Part of the move on Pan Am was an attempt to retain surgeons in Manitoba. We need to retain surgeons. This was a process to retain surgeons here. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Chomiak: The due diligence report released today indicated: Through our review, we have concluded that based on the base financial case projections for the facility the acquisition is economic and fair from a financial point of view to the WRHA. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood, on a supplem entary. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the minister did not answer my question. I would like to ask him: Can he tell us what right the Doer government has to spend taxpayers' hard earned money to pay bonuses, to pay good will to doctors at the Pan Am Clinic? Mr.

Chomiak: As I indicated earlier, the fund will be paid over three years, conditional on the partners' continuing involvement in the clinic and a non-competition clause. Further, the report that was tabled today says, quote : The base case net present value of the five-year cash flow projections for the exist ing facility is $5 .1 milli on. Comparing the pur chase price for 3.9 to this value indicates a net benefit of the acquisition of $1. 2 milli on, which indicates that the acquisition is fair from a finan cial point of view to the WRHA.

In addition, we will be able to do day sur geries in a cheaper setting, within a day surgery setting, and free up space in more acute care facilities. We are not going to go the way the members opposite went, like close Misericordia Hospital. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood, on a second supplementary. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he can tell us why he bought off the doctors by having them sign a five-year, non-competition agreement.

I even question the ethics of such an action when we have the health care crisis that we have, that he is preventing this non-competition. These doctors have a right to work wherever they want. Why has he done this? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, hearing talk about ethics from members on that side of the House raises a lot of questions. The members cannot have it both ways. On the one hand, they want us to retain surgeons. We want to retain surgeons; we want to do more surgeries. We will do anything that we can to retain surgeries. Doctors have indicated to us they like to work in surgical centres.

They wanted a surgical centre,

10 44 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May I, 200 1 so we are melding a surgical centre within our system. I might add, just to raise a point, members opposite, in an ar ticle where the member opposite is quoted in the Winnipeg Free Press, February 3: The deal sees the province buy out Hild ahl, a partner, who owned the clinic, the building, and buy out the nine surgeons who operated the surgical centre at the facility. The member is quoted in that very article. Pan Am Clinic Purchase-Surgeon Bonuses Mr.

Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Based on the comments made by the Minister of Health, we probably now have the most expensive retention plan in Canada and probably North America. The minister has committed today to spending $700,000 more for the same services of doctors that he would have paid for yesterday through Manitoba Health. Can the Minister explain to the people of Manitoba, why $700,000? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I indicated earlier, the fund paid out over three years is conditional on the partners' continued involvement in the clinic in a non-competition clause.

The $700,000 divided amongst 11 partners over three years averages out to $22,000 per partner per year, which is based on their original investment in the clinic that they provided in terms of buying the clinic in the first place. Mr. Deputy Speaker, yesterday the members wanted us to fund private hospitals; yesterday the members wanted us to give money to private clinics. Today somehow when we take a made in-Manitoba approach-we do not want to go the Ralph Klein-Mike Harris way-we cannot main tain the status quo. We are trying something innovative.

It is an innovative first and made in Manitoba that will provide services, resources to reduce waiting lists, to provide services to Manitobans. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtl e Mountain, on a supple mentary. Mr. Tweed: We are talking about a $700,000 bonus to doctors. I ask the minister why would he not tell us that last week when he was asked the very same question? Mr. Chomiak: I just want to add, if the member had occasion to read the April 3 Winnipeg Free Press where the Member for Charleswood (Mrs.

Driedger) is quoted, he would have said that that very point was made in the April 3 Winnipeg Free Press. The due dil igence independent third-party review of this particular subject says comparing the purchase price of 3.9 to this value indicates a net benefit of the acquisition of $1. 2 mil lion, which indicates the acquisition is fair from a financial point of view to the WRHA. It was reviewed by Pricewaterhouse, it was found fair by Pricewaterhouse, found fair by the WRHA. Members opposite have a choice. They can go the private American way or they can come and look at some innovation. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on a second supplem entary. Mr. Tweed: It would appear that a group of private doctors did benefit from this Government to the tune of $700,000. I ask the minister agai n. We asked in the House last week and he refused to answer. What was he hiding? Seven hundred thousand dollars, what are you hiding? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, perhaps I should have forwarded the newspaper

article to members sooner. If they had read it, they would have reviewed that. I indicated in this Chamber that we had agreed to an ag reement in principle, and we undertook independent third-party analysis of this deal. The independent Pricewaterhouse re view of this deal, independent third party, stated and I quote: The base case net present value of the five-year cash flow projection is $5 .1 mill ion. Comparing the purchase price of $3.9 million to this value indicates a net benefit of the acquisition of $1. 2 million which indicates that the acquisition is fair from a financial point of view to the WRHA .

Further, it says, through our review we have concluded that based on the base case financial projections for the existing

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 45 facility, the acquisition is economic and fair from a financial point of view to the WRHA . Innovations, a made-in-Manitoba way to deal with surgical centres. We are not going the Mike Harris-Ralph Klein, U.S. way. We are trying a made-in-Manitoba approach to the benefit of Manitobans. * (1 4:30 ) Pan Am Clinic Purchase Price Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is obvious this Government has some choices.

This Government could have expanded the work that was being done at the Pan Am Clinic without having to spend $4 million of taxpayers' money, including $700,000 which went directly into the pockets of a few surgeons for their own personal gain. I want to ask this Minister of Health because I asked him this question last week. I asked the minister what else he bought besides the three components that he talked about in the House, and he did not answer that question. He said he bought the building, the surgical rooms and the equipment.

Today I want to ask the Minister of Health : Why did he not come clean with Manitobans last week when he was asked about the question? Why did he hide the $700,000 that went directly into the pockets of a few surgeons as a bonus? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): A discussion of this that occurred in the Winnipeg Free Press April 3 is hardly hiding. A document that was provided to the public today is hardly hiding. To deal with the member's point, we pay over a million dollars a year to Pan Am to do services on a yearly basis over that.

We are one time paying capital of about $4 million that will provide us with the opportunity to have these services, to provide these services, expand these services. According to an independent review by Pricewaterhouse, we will have a net benefit to the province of $1.2 million. That is in addition to all of the benefits of having an operating sur gical facil ity, the best of its kind in Manitoba and maybe in the country. Mr.

Derkach : I would like to ask the Minister of Health, seeing that he has just indicated to the House that the Manitoba taxpayer used to pay the Pan Am Clinic a million dollars a year for services, is he saying now that for a cost of $4 million, including $700,000 that went into the pockets of a few surgeons, we in fact will not have to pay a million dolla rs anymore for procedures that are done at the Pan Am Clinic? Mr. Chomiak: The value of the business and the investment was approximate ly $769,000, which was provided today.

This particular ar rangement was done so that the fund will pay over three years, conditional on the partners' continued involvement in the clinic and a non competition clause. The independent Pricewaterhouse report found that over a five-year period the net benefit to the province financially alone of this capital investment would be $1. 2 million. Mr. Derkach : I want to ask the Minister of Health or the Premier (Mr.

Doer) of this prov ince whether they will admit that this deal was one that was cooked in the back rooms of their offices and has no value to the province of Manitoba and the residents of this province. As a matter of fact, it has cost this province dearly for the purchase of this facility. Mr. Chomiak: I would have expected more from a seasoned member of the Legislature than the Member for Roblin. This deal was negotiated by the WRHA . When it came back to us we asked that third party, independent due dili gence be done by a world recognized firm, Pricewaterhouse. That due diligence was done.

That due dil igence con cluded, quote: The base case net present value is 5.1. Comparing the purchase price of 3.9 to this value indicates a net benefit of the acquisition of 1.2 million, which indicates that this acquisition is fair from a financial point of view to the WRHA. Through our review we have concluded that based on the base case financial projects for

10 46 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 the existing facil ity the acquisition is economic and fair from a financial point of view to the WRHA. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will accept the advice and the recommendations of the WRHA and Pricewaterhouse and individuals who did inde pendent assessments before I will accept the comments and the attempts by members oppo site to try to confuse an issue which is very basic. Either we are going to have to change and be innovative or we are going to go private, U.S., like Ralph Klein and Mike Harris. Pan Am Clinic Purcha se-Property Appraisal Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): In the information released today by the Minister of Health, he indicates that the Doer government has paid over $2.8 million for a building, a building that is appraised by the City of Winni peg at approximately a million dollars, a build ing that cost approximate ly $1.1 million to build. I would like to ask this Minister of Health to explain to the people of Manitoba why he paid so much to Poseidon Enterprises and who the principals are behind Poseidon Enterprises who benefited to the point of $1. 7 million through this transaction. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would have thought the mem ber opposite would have had a better under standing of the assessed value of the City of Winnipeg versus the appraised value. Today, the WRHA also released two independent appraisals that were done of this property which values it within the range of $2.6 and $2.8 million. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte, on his first supplementary. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Health failed to answer the question, so I will answer it for him. The principals behind Poseidon are Dr. Hildahl and Dr. Lukie. Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): The member knows full well he has been repeate dly breaching the rules of the House in terms of supplementary questions. Beauchesne's says in Citation 409 and again 410 a supplem entary question should need no

preamble. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Under our rule 409 it says there: "A

preamble need not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. A long

preamble on a long question takes an unfair share of time and provokes the same sort of reply. A supplemen tary question should need no

preamble ." On the point of order, since this is the first supplem entary, there is a point of order. * * * Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte, please put the question. Mr. Loewen: I would ask the Minister of Health to confirm that the principals behind Poseidon Enterprises, Dr. Wayne Hildahl and Dr. Brian Lukie, benefited to the extent of $1. 7 million when one compares the purchase price versus the assessed value of that building. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, there were two independent appraisals that were provided publicly, independent appraisals that value the property, one $2.65 milli on, one $2 .85 mil lion, that were provided by the WRHA. I will accept independent experts in this field rather than the contentions of members opposite who have not been very accurate at all during the course of this debate . Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte, on his second supplementary. * (1 4:40) Mr.

Loewen: I would ask the Minister of Health to explain to the people of Manitoba why he paid over $2.8 million for a building when, according to the appraiser's report, he could have rented the space for $24,736 a year. Why did he pay $2.8 mill ion when he could have rented it? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have- Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh.

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 47 Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We have an opportunity in Manitoba to go a different course with respect to-we could stay the way the system is. I could do what members opposite do and go to a U.S.-style, profit-driven health care system. Yesterday they wanted us to fund profit-driven clinics and private hospitals, or we could try a different course of action.

As I told the MMA on Saturday, doctors had approached me and said: If we could function in a surgical centre, we could get more surgeries done, and we would stay in Manitoba. Doctors approached me and asked us to do that. We took that course of action. We went through an inde pendent review by Pricewaterhouse which indicated a profit over the next five years of $1. 2 mill ion for a one-time investment. Even the member who wants us to invest $32 mill ion in an underpass would understand that is a fairly good rate of return. Health Sciences Centre Out-patient Pharmacy Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question is to the Minister of Health. It is May I today, and today the minister has acted precipitously to close the Health Sciences Centre out-patient pharmacy. The confusion and the problems are huge and parents of children with cancer are yelling Mayday. It is a disaster. I ask the minister what on earth moved him to close the out-patient pharmacy at the Health Science Centre and cause such problems for children with cancer and their parents, as well as for the many other people who use this pharmacy. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): As I understand, the WRHA made the decision because of retention of pharmacists. They have a lack of pharmacists. As I understand it, they wanted to utilize the existing pharmacists that they had to be able to deliver those drugs to patients, et cetera, and they were forced, regrettab ly, to have to close the out-patient pharmacy at the Health Sciences Centre. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for River Heights, on his first supplementary. Mr.

Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Health: Why is the minister moving our province into the wonderful world of NDP inefficiency, where some patients have first to go to the CancerCare Clinic, then they have to go to the Misericordia to get their chemotherapy drugs, and then they have to go to the Shoppers Drug Mart at the Manitoba Clinic to get the GCSF, the Gra nulocyte Colony Stimula ting Factor, and then they have to go to Tache Clinic in St. Boniface to get the low molecula r weight heparin? This is an incredible merry-go-round. It is a disaster that the minister has brought upon us.

I ask the minister to sort this out posthaste and give us an answer as to why he has done this. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I know the Leader of the Liberal Party asked the question, but I think the Conservative opposition would have the decency to at least listen to the answer, or they do not care. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Point of order being raised by the Opposition House Leader. State the point of order, please. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, Beauchesne's 417: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Mr. Deputy Speaker, this side of the House does care. We are not the ones who closed that clinic. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health is just beginning to answer, and I cannot say that he had violated the rule. *** Mr. Chomiak: On the same point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will withdraw those words. To continue my answer, Mr. Deputy Speaker- Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the substantive issue, the honourable Minister of Health. Mr.

Chomiak: Because of the retent ion difficulties with respect to pharmacists, the out-

10 48 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 patient phannacy had to be closed. All options were pursued. All options continue to be pur sued. Unfortunately, in order to retain phar macists where they provide the service within the hospital, regrettab ly, the out-patient phar macy had to close. We recognize that it causes inconvenience and difficulty, and we would do anything within reason if options could be offered with respect to how that other service could be provided. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for River Heights, on his second supplementary. Mr.

Gerrard: I ask the minister why he has acted so precipitously with little notice, without adequate consultation and without adequate atte ntion to safety issues when dispensing chemotherapy drugs for children is one of the most difficult areas of phannacy responsibilities and errors can be devastating. Is the minister not in fact giving us an example of "build an excellent service and the minister will close it"? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I think the member should give more credit to the doctors and nurses who are working over at the WRHA, who worked on that decision, and not leave the impression that he is the only one that seems to understand these issues. It was worked on for some time with respect to retaining pharmacists, and everything that possibly could have been done was done in order to do that. Unfortunately, because of the difficulty in retaining a phannacist, it was regrettab le it had to be done, and other options were explored and looked at before the decision was made on an operational sense to do that.

Pan Am Clinic Purcha se-Property Appraisal Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. The minister and the Premier (Mr. Doer) have both said many times that the purchase price of approximate ly $2.8 mil lion for the building was a good deal. I would like the minister to confirm that that is really based on the Government now getting into the property rental business and that the reason they are paying that money is because they actually be came a landlord. They are spending taxpayers' dollars to simply be a medical landlord, not a provider of service. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the member opposite may not understand it, but when the member opposite was in the position of Minister of Health, he was paying tens of thousands of dollars a month in penalties to the federal government because private clinics were charging facility fees. The member then entered into contracts with private facilities and has paid millions of dollars. Mill ions of dolla rs have been paid to private facilities to pay facility fees to offer that service. We wanted to try a different option, a made-in Manitoba option.

It was not the private, for profit route, but there was a meld of some of the efficiencies that could be offered, and that is why there is a one-time capital investment with respect to operating. Members opposite ought to know that the Pan Am Clinic has an excellent reputation for the kinds of services it offers right across the province of Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on his first supplemen tary. Purchase-Operating Costs Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health: Given that he says that he is paying a one-time fee instead of a regular payment, can he tell us then if they will be doing cleaning, maintenance, regular repair and all of the other day-to-day costs that were included in those facility fees? Will they still be doing them, or will the building not be cle aned? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Department of Health of the Province of Manitoba owns hundreds of thousands of square feet of facilities.

In some cases, in fact, the member opposite entered into leasehold arrangements for some of that space. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on his supplementary. * (14: 50)

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 49 Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health again. Given that he tries to create a public impression that somehow by putting the money up front he will have no on going operating cost, I want to ask him: Is it his intention to pay the cost of at least cleaning and maintaining this clinic? Will he not at least admit that there will be ongoing operating costs to those buildi ngs that he is denying in his own analysis? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in the most comprehensive analysis that I have ever seen since I have been in government of an arrange ment-and there were many arrangements entered by members opposite. There was frozen food. There was SmartHealth. There was Connie Curran. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, before the deal is signed, we provided the due diligence. The due diligence of Pricewaterhouse says the base case net present value of the five-year cash flow of projection is 5.1 compared to the purchase price of 3.9.

This value indicates a net benefit of the acquisition of 1. 2. Mr. Deputy Speaker, members opposite want us to pay profit, U.S.-based kinds of clinics. We think there is another way, a made in-Manitoba way, that the people of Manitoba will be proud of and will provide reduced wait ing lists and access to facilities and services that would set up a different tone and would preserve medicare as we know it. Mr. Praznik: On a new question, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: On a new question. Mr. Praznik: Yes.

The $2.8-mill ion purchase price was premised from the minister's own documents on having a whole host of tenants. I want to ask the minister: Why is he spending again? Why is he spending valuab le, needed taxpayers' dollars to simply go into the property rental business at the Pan Am Clinic? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is clea r that we have to change the way we do some things in our health care system. It is clear that there is a move towards day surge ries. The volume of day surg eries has gone up drama tically.

It is also equally clea r that if we have capacity in our public system to do day surgeries in places like a surgical centre, we can do more surgeries in day surgeries, free up the very expensive high-tech, high-acuity hospitals and be able to provide more services to Manitobans. Rather than close 14 00 beds, as was done by members opposite, rather than fire nurses, rather than cut back the Faculty of Medicine, we are expanding in all those areas to try to provide services for the people who need it.

I think it is unprecedented to provide a due dil igence third party report to the public that outlines the entire agreement, that outlines it by the health authority. If the member opposite has a better acuity or business sense- Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Lac du Bonnet, on his first supplem entary. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to ask the minister: How does he justify to the tax payers of Manitoba, to the people who need health care, how he could buy a building that cost a little over a million dollars for 2.8 and spend it just to become a landlord for the tenants who are there? Mr.

Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, when that member opposite was the minister responsible, he was paying tens of thousands of dollars a month in penalties to the federal government for private services. He then entered an agreement that spent milli ons of dollars on overhead through facility fees to provide those services on top of the fee for service that was paid. We think we should be innovative, we should look at another approach. We do not want to go to the same rigid, ideological, let-us-go-to the-U.S., let-us-pay-profit approach of members opposite.

We thought we would try a different variation, a made-in-Manitoba approach that would see an investment, would see an expanded facility. I think the member opposite ought to review carefully the Pricewaterhouse report which concludes, that is based-

10 50 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 Mr. Deputy Speaker: Time for Question Period has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS May Day Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Deputy Speaker, today is May Day and again the Minis ter of Labour (Ms. Barrett) has ignored this day. That is two years running. Shame on her. Today we celeb rate International Labour Day. Unfortunately, on a day when the accom plishmen ts and achievements of hardworking individuals across the globe should be cel ebrated, not all workers have reason to cel ebrate today.

Amnesty International reports that over 1 00 union leaders were killed last year in Colombia. Closer to home, viole nt and irresponsible protesters attempt to co-op May Day for their own purposes. In our own case, members of police forces around the globe will risk their safety as they try to maintain order. Even in Manitoba, workers recognize that this Government has violated their right to a secret ballot and the democratic process in the workplace. But not all is dark. In Bahrain, workers await the introduction of trade union legisla tion to vali date their activities.

Article 28 of the European Union's Charter of Fundamental Rights is being incorporated into legal systems across the continent to provide further protection to the rights of working men and women. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we in this House often disagree on issues affecting Manitoba workers, the Government siding with the leadership of the unions and members on this side of the House siding with the workers. Regardless of our differences, I believe all members of this House recognize the tremendous achievements of all workers in Manitoba. Every day thousands of Manitobans go to work to support their families.

The Minister of Labour in 19 96, when she was the Member for Well ington, urged the Fi lmon government to follow the lead of Premier Klein in Alb erta. Members on this side of the House echo her comments. The best way to honour the sacrifices made by workers every single day is to let them keep their hard-earned wages. Workers have fought long and hard for increased wages, and a govern ment that respects workers will let them keep these hard-earned dol lars.

Special interest groups and protesters may try to co-opt today for their own narrow ends, but today is a day to cel ebrate the workers who have gone before us, today's workers and those yet to come. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The member's time has expired. Wellness Fair Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to tell the House and all Mani tobans about a successful event this past week end in Radisson. I was pleased to support and attend the first Transcona Community Preschool Well ness Fair at Bernie Wolf e School this past Saturday.

It was open to all child ren aged three and four and their parents who live in Transcona This was an initi ative of the interagency group in Transcona, soon to be the Transcona Neighbourhood Network.

I want to recognize and thank the organizing committee; the leadership shown by the Transcona-Springfield School Division staff; the regional health authority staff; Child Gui dance Clinic; the City of Winnipeg Commun ity Services Department; the parent councils in many schools; the Transcona Youth Justice Committee; and many other participants who were there to provide fun and educational information on health and developmen tal screening for pre-school children. It is very important that we identify prob lems prior to child ren entering school.

These are the types of community projects that our Government wants to encourage and facil itate as part of our early years focus. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it fits in very well with the vision we have through our paren t-child centres, the in creased emphasis on child care, and through pro grams like Neighbourhoods Alive!

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 51 It was also great to be there, as a parent with a three-year-old, to get access to many profes sionals, to discuss my daughter's development issues, ask questions, get answers and be directed to further resources in areas like dental health, fine and gross motor skiiis, vaccinations, literacy, creative activities, hearing, nutrition, vision and language developme nt, and commu nity resources, or, as my daughter calls them, pla y places. It was helpful to the parents that were there to get assistance in parenting and developing their child ren's self-esteem.

I hope that this is the first of many pre school well ness fairs for Transcona. Thank you. Child Care Providers Mr. Glen Cummi ngs (Ste. Rose): I rise today in honour of the Week of the Early Childhood Educator, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There are thousands of children in Manitoba who benefit from some form of child care service. These are highly dedica ted caregivers that work daily to assure the health and proper development of the children in their care.

Early education research has long demonstrated that proper physical and emotional care during the first years of a child's life are crucial to his or her social development, not only social, but emotional and cognitive development. For this reason, assuring that our child ren are well looked after during this critical stage of their life is an extremely important task. Thankfully, the childhood educators of our province have chosen to take on this enormous responsibility, and countless Manitoba child ren are the better for it.

Not only the child ren reap the benefit of these chil d-care providers, but the services off ered by our child -care professionals contribute significantly to the social and eco nomic well-being of our families and society as a whole. Governments of all stripes have promised universal, affordable, competent day care. The hopes have been raised many times but have never been delivered. Thankfully, for years these dedicated individuals, a majority of whom are women, have continued to provide care and nurturing to our children in spite of minimum wages and very little public recognition.

For those reasons, I want to take this oppor tunity to thank the child -care providers of our province for the work they do and thank them for the benefits that they provide to our child ren and society. * (15:10 ) Meals on Wheels Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to pay tribute to a wonderful organization, namely Meals on Wheels. Meals on Wheels is a home delivery of nutritious meals to those in the city of Winnipeg who are unable by reason of infirmity or circumstance to provide adequately for their own nutrition.

Each weekday, volunteers deliver between 650 and 700 meals to people in the community. This amounts to a very large number on an annual basis, in the year 2000, 16 7 932 meals. It takes quite a large number of volunteers. For example, they have a roster of 720 volu nteers or 44 drivers each day. For the last two-and-a-half months I vol unteered once a week to provide this service. It was an interesting experience which I am glad I had. I recently attended their annual general meeting, and I was amazed. There must have been at least 200 people at their annual meeting.

They honoured people that have been long service volu nteers including 4 people who have volu nteered for 30 years, which is absolutely amazing. This is an excellent organization. I would encourage people to consider volunteering. Their phone number is 956-7711 , and they can always use more volu nteers. We also look forward to their celeb ration of volunteers event in June of this year. Health Care System Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): The Doer government and certainly the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) have been using a catch phrase to describe their random attempts at improving Manitoba's health care system.

It is a made-in Manitoba solution they keep saying. An increase in patients being treated in hospital hallways; a policy known as Code Purple which discharges

10 52 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 patients well before they are ready; purchase of an efficient and successful private clinic for an exorbitant amount of money; the denial of viable health care options for Manitobans by refusing to allow The Maples Surgical Centre to take on Workers Compensation and MPI cases and reduce the pressure on the current system; the admission that this Government, this Health Minister, has no long-term pla n for health care, these are the realities of the Doer government's handling of health care in this province.

How depressing it is that these initiatives are being sold to Manitobans as a made-in-Manitoba solution. A made-in-Manitoba solution would be one crafted and supported by the people of this province. It would be one that recognized the tremendous pressure now pushing our current health care system at all its seams. It would be one that would include viable options to the current system which would ease the burden and reduce waiting lis ts for many Manitobans. The Doer government's handling of our health care system is not a made-in-Manitoba solution.

In fact, this Government's lack of a long-term health care strategy is unfortunately a made-in Manitoba crisis. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Govern ment House Leader): Would you canvass the House to see if there is an agreement to waive private members' hour today? Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there an agreement to waive private members' hour today? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh : Mr. Deputy Speaker, would you also canvass the House to see if there is an agreement for the

section of Supply meeting in Room 255 to finish at approximately 5: 30 while the sections meeting in the Chamber and in Room 254 continue to sit until six o'clock. That is to prepare for this evening's committee meeting. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there such an agree ment for the Supply committee meeting in Room 255 to finish approximately at 5: 30? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh : Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Smith), that Mr.

Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. *(15 :25) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSERVATION Mr. Cha irperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. Does the honourable Minis ter of Conserva tion have an opening statement? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Yes, Mr. Chairman. I have a brief statement to make. Mr. Chairperson: Please proceed. Mr. Lathlin: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I am ple ased to present the 200 1 -2002 Estimates of the Manitoba Department of Conservation. I trust that members have had the opportunity to review the supplem entary information for the department.

Before proceeding with my opening remarks, I wish to acknowledge the efforts of staff and recognize their service and dedication to enhancing the well-being of Manitobans. They have faithfully worked to fulfil the man date of the department and ensure the sustain ability of our natural resources for present and for future generations. Last fiscal year was extremely busy and very productive. Numerous initiatives were undertaken and tasks completed. Today I will highlight our progress and touch on some of the continuing and new initiatives for this fiscal year. I want to talk about the department as a whole.

As members are awa re, the former departments of Environment and Natural

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 53 Resources and the Petroleum and Energy Branch were consoli dated into the Department of Con servation. Recently the Petroleum

section was moved under the responsibili ty of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines. I would like to express my thanks to the staff of the Petroleum branch for their fine work during their brief tenure with Manitoba Conservation. Our vision, however, remains the same. As a department we will strive to ensure present and future Manitobans enjoy and prosper in an environment that is healthy with an abundance of diverse natural resources and sustained energy. We continue to focus our efforts on ensuring the sustainabili ty of Manitoba's natural re sources.

We are protecting our environmental integrity, biolo gical diversity, addressing the issue of clim ate change and conserving energy. We continue to protect the health and safety of Manitobans and minimize the effects of natural disasters. We are working hard to address the needs of our Aboriginal communities and create opportunities for environmentalists now and sus tainable economic development for all Mani tobans. We continue to pursue integrated plan ning and local decision making.

Our commitment to responsible manage ment includes an enhanced recognition of the need for public participation, local community involvement and the unique place of Aboriginal peoples in planning, conserving and harvesting {interjection] Where was I? Do I start from the beginning? Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me. Please put of f all your phones. They do disrupt the meetings. Continue, Mr. Minister. * (15: 30) Mr.

Lathlin: Our commitment to responsible management includes an enhanced recognition of the need for public participation, local community involvemen t and the unique place of Aboriginal peoples in planning, conserving and harvesting our natural resources on a sustainable basis. When the Government announced the establi shment of the Department of Conservation we set about the task of integrating the various functions and activities of the former depart ments. A steering committee was established along with issues, teams to carry out a two phased plan of action.

Phase one was comple ted in early 2000 and focussed on reviewing and identifying immediate integration opportunities. Phase two is implemen tation and is well under way. Early this year the teams were established to take action on a variety of tasks. These included integration of the regional operations, integration of the department's various water units and completing the integra tion of the Environmental Stewardship Division. In total over 15 0 staff are participating on these teams. The assi stant deputy mini sters of the department's four divisions have now been appointed.

Harvey Boyle is our ADM for region al operations. Serge Scrafield heads the Environ mental Stewardship Division. Dave Wotton is ADM for Conservation Programs, while the Corporate Services Division is led by Wolf Boehm. Other appointments have also been made. Blair McTavish is the director of Sustainable Resource Management. Brian Gray has been appointed the director for Clima te Change. A number of other important recruitment processes are also under way, including the filling of the regional director positions and the directors for the Aboriginal Relations, Financial Services and Information Technology Branch.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Bill Podolsky and Merlin Shoesmith for their dedicated service to the people of Manitoba. These two members of our departmental executive have just recently retired. Their professionalism and experience will be greatly missed. We are continuing to consider

an act on the physical integration of office staff and newly created branches. A number of initiatives are ac tively underway in Steinbach, Portage Ia Prairie, Thompson and The Pas. The physical integration of certain Winnipeg operations is still under active consideration. Various other integration opportunities are still being explored and will be

10 54 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 impleme nted soon. The Environmental Steward ship division consists of the Aboriginal Rela tions, Environmental Approvals and the Sustain able Resource Management branches. Among other things, this division is respon sible for promoting environmental stewardship, leading, in conju nction with the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs, the implem entation of the COSDI report dealing with issues that require

interpretation of treaty rights in the context of provincial legislation; promoting the effective involvement of the Aboriginal com munities in resource pla nning, use and man agement; leading our broad area and planning initiative; supporting municip al and southern Crown land planning and facilit ating and co ordinating legislation and policy development; administering The Sustainable Developm ent Act; providing staff support to the Manitoba Round Table on Sustainable Development and the Aboriginal Resources Council; administering environmental licensing and co-ordinating intergovernmental affairs related to environmental and sustainable development matters.

Over the past year a number of significant accompli shments have occurred and a number of new and continuing initiatives will be pursued this fiscal year. Currently, the department is initiating an amendment process to effect some major changes to The Environment Act, primarily to implem ent the COSDI report. These changes will facili tate a broader assessment of proposed develo pments, provide opportunities for more comprehensive consultation processes and provide for a colla borative decision-making process as an alternative to a traditional environmental assessment.

A major pla nning initiative for the east side of Lake Winnipeg was initiated last year. In this regard a series of meetings with First Nations, local communities, stakeholders and nongovern ment organizations was held to discuss the boundaries of their planning area, their roles and responsibilities of an east side round table and other planning resource and land use issues. We will continue with this pla nning effort this fiscal year. expect to receive the results of those meetings shortly.

We will then begin the process of defining terms of reference and formally establish the east side round table, so they may begin their work towards the preparation of an east side Winnipeg plan. The Province has been involved in co-management arrangements with First Nations and communities for a number of years. Co-operative management is a tool to address resource management issues and opportunities. It allows government and users to negotiate shared roles and responsibili ties and decision making.

Last fiscal year, a memorandum of understanding was negotiated between Manitoba and the West Region Tribal Council that will lead to the creation of a management plan for the Dauphin Lake fishery to ensure the protection of fish stocks. This fiscal year, I anticipate that other agreements and co-management arrange ments may be reached. In particula r, we are considering a proposal with the West Region Tribal Counc il.

Such an agreement would facil itate joint management focused on consultation, education and collection of harvest information while working towards the long-term sustain ability ofthe Dauphin Lake fishery. The Opaskawayak Cree Nation and the OCN Resource Council have proposed an agreement for a joint management plan on lands both on and of f reserve. It envisions the ability of the First Nations to have some authority in the issuance of li cences and permits with greater enforcement capabili ties by passing by-la ws and regula tions.

We have also held discussions with the Manitoba and Metis Federation regarding co management of resources. We have agreed to work towards developin g a province-wide arrangement that may focus on the areas of hunting, fishing and trapping, although other resource sectors may be inclu ded in the future. tabled the Manitoba Sustainable Developmen t Strategy on June 29, 2000. I noted that the Government had formally accepted the COSDI report recommendations at that time.

These actions were the first steps to ensure the impl ementation of sustainable development principles and guidelines into the everyday workings of government. Other steps in the strategy include the establis hment of a renewed Manitoba Round Table for Sustainable

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 55 Development and the Aboriginal Resources Council. Last December, I was pleased to announce the appointment to the Aboriginal Resources Council of 14 very committed individuals who will service us as an arm's-len gth advisory group on co-management issues, provide recommen dations for supporting First Nations in adopting their own environmental protection and resource management by-la ws and make recommen dations on priority issues such as the east side of Lake Winnipeg.

We have established an Abo riginal Relations Branch to guide the depart ment's activities with Aboriginal people. As I mentioned earlier, we are in a process of recruit ing a director and will be adding two more staff during the year. I am also pleased to report that the Manitoba Round Table for Sustainable Developmen t was renewed in July of 2000. Twenty-three members were appointed, including six cabinet mini sters. I have the pleasure of chairing the Round Table along with my co-chair, Mr. Jack Dubois.

The Round Table was able to set a new direction focused on the implem entation of sustainable development policies. They are actively working on a number of tasks, some of which I will briefly mention. As required under The Sustainable Development Act, public consultations on a proposed set of sustainabili ty indicators were held last year. A "What You Told Us" document will be released this fiscal year. The Manitoba Round Table will be submitting a final report to Government by July outlining a set of sustain ability indicators for the Province.

Manitoba Round Table also rele ased last year the "What You Told Us" fish strategy and wildlif e strategy documents. At the direction of the Round Table, a working group reviewed public feedback and made suggestions for amending those policies earl ier this year. The Manitoba Round Table will be finalizing their advice to Government respecting provincial fish and wildlif e policies and revision of The Wildlif e Act this fiscal year. As I noted earlier, we have accepted the recommendations from the report of the Consul tation on Sustainable Development Imple mentation, that is the COSDI, working group.

A working group has been established to spearhead the impleme ntation of those recommendations. A draft implem entation pla n is under review, and initiation of that plan will commence this year. . While the Drinking Advisory Committee report came out last year under the of fice of the Chief Medical Officer of Health, this report was a joint effort of a number of departments, with Manitoba Conservation having a major role. The committee was establ ished to conduct a review of reporting and follo w-up procedures for bacterial testing of all water systems in Mani toba.

The committee made recommendations to address issues such as the need for a drinking water co-ordinating centre, enhanced private well water testing, regula tions and monitoring of semi-public water systems and improved education and training and standards. We have accepted the report, and Manitoba Conservation will, in conjunction with other departments, be moving forward on a number of the report's recommendations to ensure the safety of our drinking water. * (15: 40) Our departmental Conservation Program Division is comprised of eight branches.

That includes Crown lands, forestry, wildl ife, fisher ies, water, terrestrial quality, clima te change and pol lution prevention branch. Their overall focus is to ensure the sustainability of our natural re sources, protect environmental integrity and bio diversity, address the needs of Aboriginal com munities and optimize opportunities for environ mentally sound and sustainable economic devel opment. The accomplis hments over the past year have been significant for this division. I will highlight ju st a few and outline some of my ex pectations of the division for this fiscal year.

The Department's Water Branch is responsible for licensing water use and water power projects, planning and development, service and ground water management and water quality manage ment. We have redesigned the branch Web site. It is now more comprehensive, user friendly and is an excellen t source for information on such topics as flood forecasts and daily flood reports.

10 56 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 Of particula r interest is our ongoing water project work, studies and agreements, including the work we are doing with our many inter national and intergovernmental commissions, boards and agencies. The lic ensing

section has imple mented water alloc ation plans for the Winkler, Assiniboine Delta and the Oak Lake aquifers. They have also developed a computerized water balance module for use in allo cation pla nning for service of water resources. Our water planning activities will continue this fiscal year and will include the development of a provincial water strategy. In this regard, a discussion document will be prepared. The strategy will include a vision statement, discuss the importance of water to Manitobans, provide a

summary of water poli cy-related issues facing Manitoba and discuss water legisla tion and watershed plan ning. We will also initiate the preparation of a draft management pla n for the Assiniboine Delta aquif er. We will work closely with our stakehol ders in a consensus-building process. A draft framework for the Pembina River Basin Management plan was comple ted for public consideration. Implem entation of the Oak Lake aquifer and Winkler aquifer management pla ns was also facil itated.

A consensus-building process with Saskatchewan and stakeholder s was initiated to draft an interprovincial management plan for the Swan Lake watershed. In the past year, the Water Branch, in partnership with the governments of Saskatchewan and Canada, comple ted a comprehensive study of water man agement issues affecting the upper Assiniboine River basin. The department will undertake a review of that report and prepare a response to the study conclusions and recommendations. We anticipate a restructuring and react ivation of the Assiniboine River Management Advi sory Board.

This board was originally cre ated in 19 94 in response to issues raised by the many diverse interests along the Assiniboine River. Since its inception the board has held public meetings on the long-term strategy for water management of the Assiniboine River. The board has also submitted a number of reports and made recommendations to Government. Flood events in Manitoba have and continue to cause severe social and economic and environmental stress because of the high soil moisture in southern Manitoba at freeze-up last fall and the associated high flood potential.

We prepared and distributed in January an early flood outlook report. We foll owed up with updated outlooks in February, March and April. Thankfully, the flood situation is easing. We have developed a database of flood protection works in the Red River Valley which will provide details and ele vations to the public and government agencies. Manitoba Conservation has a significant role to play in protecting the health and safety of Manitobans and preventing and mitigating the adverse financial and environmental effects of flooding.

In the past year the Water Branch initiated a study of options to increase the level of flood protection for the city of Winnipeg. Those study results should be available this summer. Important refurbishment work on the Red River Flo odway, the inlet control structure and on the Assiniboine River dikes will also continue. We will continue to be very active in the floodproofing along with our partners in the federal government. In this fiscal year we wiii continue with home and business floodproofing activities.

Our community diking program will include, depending on the project, the voluntary buyout of properties, dike construction, construction of pump stations, internal drainage works and riprapping. We will continue to upgrade our flood forecasting network, data gathering and support negotiations toward a phase three agreement for the Red River Valley flood protection program. If we are to have sound water management, whether for flood protection, environmental maintenance or sustainable economical develop ment, we need good information.

To that end we intend to establish 18 new hydrometric stations in the Red River Valley under the Canada Manitoba Partnership Agreement. We will also comple te the first phase of the establi shment of a new weather monitoring network. This fiscal year the Manitoba Water Commission will undertake a study on the Lake Manitoba regulation and downstream impact. The purpose is to publicly resolve concerns

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 57 about high water levels on Lake Manitoba in the mid- 1 990s, erosion on beachfront properties around the southern shore and flooding concerns of First Nations residents downstream from the Fairford Dam. In Manitoba there are an estimated 50 000 dug or drilled water wells supplying water to more than half the communities in Manitoba. As our rural members know, these wells provide drinking water for families and institutions such as hospitals and day care centres as well as water for commercial, farm and industrial purposes.

To protect and ensure that we manage this precious resource in a sustainable manner, over the past year approximately 15 00 well construction reports were reviewed and added to our ground water database. The ground water quality in Manitoba's aquifers was also inspected with over 10 00 water samples tested. * (15: 50) The liv estock initiative ground water program continued this past year. Two additional farm spreading fields were instrumented and sampled. Detailed ground water and soil monitoring was comple ted for manure spreading fields near the villa ge of Brookdal e.

These fields overlie a thin sand aquif er where impacts on ground water quality are a concern. This fiscal year work is set to continue colle cting data from the test sites, lagoons and farmland under the liv estock waste program. We also plan to establish two more farm test areas which have different soil and geologic settings. We continue to manage and monitor over a hundred provincial dams and many miles of dikes, drains and water conveyance channels. This fiscal year $1 million will be used for improving provincial waterways and for water ways in conservation districts.

In addition to our water management activities the department will continue to monitor water quality throughout Manitoba. We will do this in co-operation with volu nteer organizations, local lake and stream stewardship groups and others. It is our intention to also comple te a detailed review of Manitoba's water quality standards, ob jectives and guide lines. As part of our overall study of the Assiniboine River, the first year of a three-year water quality study will also be initiated this fiscal year.

Our Parks and Natural Areas Branch is responsible for preserving unique and repre sentative areas offering a broad spectrum of year-round recreational opportunities and inte grating a diversity of uses in a natural setting. The branch fosters an understanding and appreciation of our heritage through interpre tative and environmental education, while co ordinating the protected areas and Canadian Heritage Rivers initiatives. In the past year, the branch worked to have the Hayes River nominated and accepted as a candidate under the Canadian Heritage River System.

A draft management plan for Grand Beach Provincial Park was prepared this year in consultation with the Norway House, Oxford House and Shamattawa First Nations and York Factory. Work will begin on a management plan for the Hayes River. We also anticipate the plan for Grand Beach will be finalized, and a management plan for Duck Mountain Provincial Park will be started. We remain committed to the establishm ent of a system of protected areas for Manitoba.

Some of our recent accomplis hments include creation of the Birch Island and Fisher Bay Park Reserves which total over 17 0 000 hectares and protection of roughly 40 000 hectares of land within existing wildl ife management areas. We are also very committed to the involvement of Aboriginal communities in the imple mentation of this program. In that regard, the memorandum of understanding on protected areas between First Nations and the Manitoba government has been extended for another three years.

The Parks Branch will continue to enhance the system of protected areas and will create new park reserves and protected additional lands within existing wildlif e management areas for mining, logging and hydro-electric development. This fiscal year, we expect to start the process of establishing the following park reserves: Sturgeon Bay, Pinawa Bay, Pelica n, Grand Pemmican [phonetic} and Goose Islands, and Walter Cook uplands caves. This could result in about 30 000 additional hectares of protected

10 58 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 operation with the Nature Conservancy of Canada, we expect to open a new park of about 18 0 hectares in the Pembina Valley. We are also continuing to review a number of ecologi cal reserve proposals. We hope to con clude consultations on Caribou, Amisk, Manigo tagan, South Atikaki and Trappist Monastery Park Reserve and make decisions on their suitabil ity as protected provincial parks. We will also be undertaking the first phase of a three-year drinking water program.

We will be evaluating and upgrading drinking water supplies that are available to the public in provincial park campgrounds, cottage subdivisions and day-use areas. The first phase of the program is anticipated to cost approximately $1 00,000. Manitoba Parks operates more than 5800 campsites offering transient and seasonal camping opportunities. Last year, we experienced over 5 million park visitors, including day users, campers, cottagers and organized groups. Camping has rebounded. Last year, reservations were up 15 percent over the previous year. This season, demand is 23 percent ahead of last year.

Seasonal camping unit nights are also climbing with several campgrounds experiencing demand in excess of supply. It is very rewarding to see more Manitobans and visitors out enjoying our provincial parks. Satisfying growing demand does, however, create many challenges including striking a del icate balance between the competing interests of transient and seasonal campers. The Government remains very concerned about the risk we face from clima te change.

My department continues to be engaged with our federal, provincial and territorial partners in a national process to work with stakeholders and the public on cl imate change. In addition to the very grave consequences we and future generations face from the impacts that may arise from cli mate change, I recognize the need for us to take careful and well- informed actions. As a resident of northern Manitoba, I am particularly concerned about the potential impact of clima te change on the boreal forest.

We need to ensure we do not disadvantage important Manitoba industries in the agricult ure, energy and transportation sectors. We also want to ensure our hydro potential is used to replace dirtier forms of energy. At the same time, we will ensure hydro developm ents benefit those who live in the area. Despite the potential economic risks of curbing our emission of greenhouse gases, I belie ve the cost of doing nothing will be far worse in environmental, public health and economic ways.

Therefore we organized our air quality and energy units into a new Clima te Change Branch to emphasize our commitment to addressing clima te change issues. We have and continue to participate in Canada's national clima te change committee. We have negotiated a federal -provincial agreement to support research into cli mate change impacts and adaptation. We have established the Manitoba Clima te Change Action Fund and have begun the task of evaluating proposals and disbursing funds. To further our efforts, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) announced in March the creation of a Clima te Change Task Force to help develop our strategy on cli mate change. The task force will be chaired by Lloyd Axworthy with support provided by our Clean Environment Commission. The task force will begin its public consultations shortly, and we anticipate receiving its report this summer. In addition to the work of the task force, our Clima te Change Branch will finalize and implement a greenhouse gas emission reduction plan for government opera tions.

The Clima te Change Branch will continue this fiscal year with air quality monitoring and reporting to the public, along with various energy conservation activities. Our Forestry branch is charged with ensuring the sustainability of our forests, supporting our forest industry and assisting the management of community forests. Their ac compl ishments this past year include a new forest inventory for the Pine Falls Paper Company's forest management lic ence area and initiation of a new inventory for the Pinela nd Forest

Section in southeast Manitoba. The branch also comple ted a wood supply analysis for key portions of Crown land within the Pine Falls wood supply area.

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 59 In co-operation with the forest industry the branch completed a report recommending a contemporary forest lands inventory system for Manitoba. The branch developed an agreement with Louisiana-Pacific Canada to impleme nt the forest land inventory system in the mountain forest section. The branch developed forest practice guidebooks for the pre-harvest surveys and understore protection in consultation with the forest industry. They also reviewed and amended forestry practices related to brush disposal, fuel storage and timber harvest operations.

Development of a proposed ground stump age model for Manitoba was completed, along with a survey of First Nations and Aboriginal involvemen t in the forest industries. Over four million trees were pla nted on approximately 210 0 hectares, and approximately 18 00 hectares of cutovers were site prepared for this fiscal year's planting program.

To help control Dutch elm disease, we co operated with the municipalities in the removal of over 15 000 diseased trees from 38 communi ties and a buffer zone around Winnipeg. * (1 6:0 0) The department's Fisheries branch is respon sible for the ongoing management of our aquatic resources. They are involved in the management of habitat, fish culture and sport and commercial fishing.

This past year the branch worked with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and the northwest fisheries co-op to develop a business plan for local processing and marketing of new and unmarketed fish products from the Leaf Rapids pla nt. The branch also worked on and will comple te this fiscal year the Canadian council of fisheries and a aquaculture ministers freshwater fish strategy. The branch continues to administer the Fisheries Enhancement Initiative which awarded $325,0 00 in grants to 35 projects last year.

In regard to the branch's responsibil ity for the fish culture, over 18 million walleye fry were stocked in Lake Manitoba and Lake Winni pegosis, 800 000 trout fry fingerlings and catch able size trout were also stocked in over 10 0 sports fishing waters throughout the province, 10 6 000 sturgeon fry and 12 000 sturgeon fingerlings were stocked into the Winnipeg River for conservation goals. Our stocking efforts will continue in this fiscal year. Construction of the Minnedosa fishway at the Minnedosa Dam on Little Saskatchewan River was completed this past year.

This is the highest pool and riffle fish patches facility in Manitoba. In partnership with the Wildl ife Federation, Fish Futures, City of Winnipeg and Sturgeon Creek stewardship association, the Fisheries branch assisted in the design and funding of a fish ladder at Grant's Mill on Sturgeon Creek in Winnipeg. Our habitat management activities will continue at the establ ishment of in-stream flow reserves for maintaining fish and fish habitat on the Assiniboine River, an enhancement of the fish habitat in the Whitemud River, Stony Creek and Brokenhead River watersheds.

Along with the Wildlif e Federation, Mid Canada Marine Dealers Association and Recre ation Connections, the branch piloted Manitoba's recreational fishing league to promote angling to Manitoba youth. In conju nction with the urban angling partnership, the branch helped raise over $20,000 to lease a van, hire an instructor, purchase fishing rods and take over 400 youngsters fishing during the summer. The partnership also put on "le arn to fish" clinics for families in the city of Winnipeg and ran a family fish festival at The Forks. That festival was attended by approximately 5000 people.

I would like to note that this program received one of five Canadian Recreational Fisheries Awards presented by Fisheries and Oceans Canada. We will continue to support and participate in this very worthwhile project, worthwhile youth- and family -oriented program. We will this fiscal year also work with Chemawawin Cree Nation and the community of Easterville to develop a Cedar Lake management plan to ensure conservation and help rationalize the fishery. The branch will also work with Sagkeeng First Nation on sturgeon management in the Winnipeg River.

Our northern communities are faced with the increased financial cost associated with fishing

10 60 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 remote lakes and escalating transportation costs to deliver their fish to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corp. These increased costs are be coming an overwhelming burden to northern fishermen to the point that these fisheries are becoming less and less viable and risk colla ps ing. These communities have few emplo yment opportunities and depend in many cases almost solely on their local fishery for emplo yment income. Our Government is sensitive to their problems and the possible col lapse of the industry.

We have, therefore, taken action to promote, protect and ensure the continuation of this very necessary northern fishery, a position I might mention that is supported by the Manitoba Round Table for Sustainable Development's fish strategy which I mentioned earlier. To that end we will continue and expand funding for the Northern Fishermen's Freight Assistance Program. Our Wildlif e branch has the responsibili ty of ensuring the sustainabili ty of the province's biolog ical diversity, diversity of wild pla nts and animals, and land resources.

Their activities include protecting the health and safety of Manitoba's big game and game bird manage ment, problem animals, fur management, bio diversity conservation, conservation data centre, rare and endangered species, wildlif e planning and land use, habitat stewardship, non-game bird management, and alien and invasive species and wildl ife research. While we are being cautious in Canada and in Manitoba so as not to bring here the tragedy of the hoof and mouth disease that farmers in Europe are presently battling, there are other diseases we must also be vigilant against.

Bovine TB is a contagious bacterial infection that can affect cattle, bison, deer, elk and some times humans. Manitoba was given bovine TB free status in 19 86. In 19 91 a cattle herd south of Riding Mountain was found to be infected with TB along with an elk shot by a hunter. Since then an additional nine cattle and eight elk have been found to be infected. Manitoba Conservation has been co operating with Manitoba Agriculture and Food, Canadian Food Inspection Agency and Parks Canada to monitor the extent of the infection and control its spread.

We will implem ent a joint action plan developed co-operatively with the partnering agencies. Activities will include an aggressive disease surveilla nce program which inclu des the coll ection of up to 500 elk, deer and moose samples from hunters in the Riding and Duck Mountain area and testing them for TB. An important control of the disease between domestic stock and deer and elk is the installation of deer- and elk -proof fences around cattle feeding sites and stored domestic forage. This will also be pursued under the action plan.

Additionally, an improved system for monitoring the status of the elk population will be developed. Studies will also be funded to learn more about the movement, behaviour of elk and their interaction with domestic cattle around the periphery of Riding Mountain. The other disease issue of immedia te concern is chronic wasting disease, which is a relative of mad cow disease and infects members of the deer family. This disease has been found in farmed elk and wild mule deer in Saskatchewan. The disease is always fatal, and there is no test that can be given to live animals.

We have no indication of whether that disease can infect humans, but we are being extremely cautious, as Health Canada is not yet ready to issue a statement that the di sease cannot infect people. Chronic wasting disease has not been found in Manitoba, and we are taking steps to prevent its introduction. In this regard, we do not allow deer into the province under The Wildlif e Act permit, and regula tions are being drafted to control the import of deer from anywhere in the world. Manitoba Agriculture and Food is also controlling the import of farmed elk.

We are co operating with Saskatchewan and Al berta in surveilla nce and prevention measures. * (16:10 ) Samples taken in connection with bovine TB will also be tested for chronic wasting disease. All of these endeavours and program costs will be shared by our partners. This past year, the branch establis hed a wildlif e Aboriginal liaison manager position to assist in developing and

May 1, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 61 impl ementing co-operative wildlif e management programming with the Aboriginal community. This fiscal year, we will develop, in co-operation with the Aboriginal community, a wildlif e-based cultural education awareness gathering with the theme "le arning from the el ders the relationship with the land" for Wildlif e branch staff and various non-government organizations. Sound wildlif e management depends upon accurate and scientific information. For many years, big game information was not available for northern Manitoba.

Last year we started to correct that problem by focussing a large portion of the big game aerial survey program to the north. This will allow, for example, the department to monitor the response of moose populations to fires, forest cutting and harvest requirements for First Nations communities. We intend to build upon our survey capabilities and continue to improve aerial survey technology to ensure Manitoba's system remains one of the most efficient in Canada. Our abundance of wild pla nts and animals has both its benefits and associated problems.

Too many animals for too little habitat can result in crop and property damage. The introduction of non native pla nts and animals often lead to competition with native species. The branch developed and improved the problem beaver removal problem, focusing on winter subsidies to solve the low prices paid trappers for beaver pelts. This fiscal year, we plan to imple ment the winter beaver harvest sub sidy program to encourage trappers to take beaver in chronic problem areas, as this continues to be the main wildlif e concern of many rural municipalities.

A new Waterfowl Crop Damage Prevention Agreement with the federal government was also initiated. We will also develop and implement a new predator and a wild boar control program. We intend to address the issue of wild boar by decla ring the province a wild boar contro l area and target eradication efforts to problem areas. The Wildlif e branch redesigned a trapping guide to make it more user friendly and con ducted a two-day workshop for community based resource staff in First Nations regarding the European Union-Canada Agreement on humane trapping standards.

We will also translate into Cree, Dene and Ojibway those parts of the trapping guide related to the types of traps that can and cannot be used. We will also work with the Manitoba Trappers Association and other partners to develop an agreement for the del ivery of Manitoba trapper education programs. The existing Wildlif e Act is over 20 years old. Our views and values have changed since it was written. We are embracing ecosystem management, traditional and local knowledge and ensuring our activities are consistent with the principles of sustainable development.

Our Manitoba Round Table for Sustainable Development has, as part of the wildlif e strategy, raised the issue of revising the act to make it more in line with contemporary views, values and our understanding of wild pla nts and animals. Once the Round Table has finalized the recommendations, we will start the process of reviewing and redrafting the act. This activity will be initiated this fiscal year. We participated in the federal habitat stewardship program for species at risk this last fiscal year.

A number of projects under this program were del ivered by Manitoba Conser vation and the Manitoba Habitat Heritage Cor poration. One of the accomplishm ents of the stewardship program included an inventory of the status of prairie habitats in the mixed grass region. The department also conducted, last fiscal year, surveys of six rare pla nt species in south western Manitoba and continued botanical inventory in the Hudson Bay coastal region. We continue to have concerns for a number of our at risk na tive wild animal and plant species.

We will protect habitats in agri-Manitoba by iden tifying priority areas and conducting inventories to build our database. We will enhance informa tion and extension efforts and enter into conser vation agreements with landowners to protect priority areas. We will continue efforts to survey rare pla nt and animal species and produce new and updated status reports for the Endangered

10 62 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 200 1 Species Advisory Committee. We will co ordinate implemen tation of the 200 1 inter national piping plover survey in Manitoba and a volu nteer-based dragonfly survey. We will enhance and expand the Manitoba Conservation data centre, database, to track occurrences and information on alien invasive species in Manitoba. We also intend to evaluate the potential for the reintroduction of musk ox to Manitoba. The woodland caribou conservation strategy for Manitoba was released in September 2000. This report identified four woodla nd caribou ranges as being

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-22
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 22.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	99a3fcd9ece769baa59fc91e870244c77608cd39

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