PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 100 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, JUNE 8, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June 8th. 1970 Tape 1153 JH - 1 The House met at 10:10 A.M. Hr. Speaker in the Chair PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SMALLWOOD: Hr. Speaker, I beg leave on Your Honour's behalf to present a petition from some constituents in Your Honour's district of Carbonear.

These are some 170 odd citizens of Carbonear and Freshwater and the Prayer of their Petition is as follows namely: that there be a continuation of the paving program which has so far brou~ht the paved road through Carbonear to Crackers Cove where it now ends but that it should be continued beyond Crockers Cove down to, into and through Freshwater and out of Freshwater on the opposite end and so in a gentle curve to the Conception Bay Highway that goes down the North Shore of Conception Bay. This would mean that if you drove from St.

John's to say Western Bay or Northern Bay you would go down the Conception Bay Highway and if you deverted at Carbonear instead of going on straight down that road you went through Freshwater you would go over a paved road all of the distance back onto the main highway again. It is a distance of 1.7, one and three-quarter miles, and there is not any doubt in the wide world that it would be an immense improvement to the people there and there is no doubt that Freshwater is one of the most ancient places we have on the Island of Newfoundland.

It is one of the original settlements, one of the dozen or fifteen original settlements that were founded in Newfoundland four hundred years and more than four hundred years ago. They are splendid people and I have great pleasure in Your Honour's behalf in presenting this petition with my support and I beg that it be laid on the table and referred to the Department to which it relates. MR.

MURPHY: Mr· Speaker, I would like to support the Prayer of the Petition and seeing it is in the Speaker:s district, of course, the Speaker has to be sort of in a neutral position at this time I feel that I would like to add my support.

Anybody who has driven down through Carbonear and right through, I think we have paved road as far as Western Bay as far as I know, and the joining up of this - Well, anyhow there are a few places there but that drive, I think, right through to Bay de Verde and all that an~a and this 1. 7 miles to which the Premier refers I 11m sure 1~onlrl h{" a wonderful henPfit and a pleasure for these people ;md there 6387

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1153 JM - 2 MR. MURPHY: are a great many people who use this road. So I have very much pleasure, Mr. Speaker, in supporting the Prayer of the Petition. On motion Petition received. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SAUNDERS: Mr. Speaker, on Orders .of the Day. As the Minister of Fisheries is not in his seat I can direct a question to the hon. the Premier.

Has he received any communications from the fisherman of the area from Cape Bonavista to Baccalieu because over the weekend there was a terrible destruction down there by foreign draggers~ I think it is just about time now, Sir, that someone must send a gunboat down there as the fishermen in that area were practically ruined over the weekend. There were thirty foreign draggers in there with their factory ship and all, Sir. so I think it is about time to put-- AN HON. MEMBER: Thirty. MR. SAUNDERS: Yes, thirty foreign draggers with factory ship and all.

The fish has struck in, plenty of fish and they followed the fish in and they are in there within the three mile limit. One of our fishermen down there, Sir, within the three mile limit lost every bit of his gear. So I think it is about time now for the gunboat. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, before you call Orders of the Day, the Minister of Finance is not in his chair and I think it comes under his responsibility. I have had some inquiries,but I do not know how important it is at this time, with reference to the control for the closing of licenced premises on election day, Thursday.

Has there been any ruling made whether it be only in St. John's East or does it apply to the whole area? I have had several inquiries on it and I am just wondering what attitude is being taken because usually with an election all licenced premises are closed but here we have a small area within a larger area and I am just wondering if there is any decision being made on this at the present moment1 MR. SMALLimOD: I will have to take that as notice because I frankly do not know the answer.

I do not know if it is laid down in the statute or in the regulations mndl' unrll!!r thf' !Hntuta whether the Liquor Commission have the authority to bury it. I do not know but 1 will have to look into it and perhaps before the day is 6388

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1153 JM- 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: over I can have an answer. Perhaps my colleague, the Minister of Justice, would look it up for me. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. NEARY: I think, Mr. Chairman, we are on 1131(03)(01), Short Term Assistance. If I may have your permission, Mr. Chairman, I promised the hon. member for Bonavista North that I would get an answer to a question that he ask me on Friday concerning trusteeship at the Hoyles Home. There are 264 accounts -_eiRhty- six of which are in the hands of a Crustee,or trustee cases. The total amount is $7~ 9 332.09 and that is as ol the 30th of April.

The largest amount of these accounts if $750.00 and the officers·handling the cash, which is usually a welfare officer_ in the Institution, are not bonded. This question, Mr. Chairman, has never really arisen but it is something that we might take a good hard look at. I also promised the hon. Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Chairman, that I would get an example of short-term assistance and long-term assistance and I h~ve based this on a family of five persons, two adults and three children. and I have a copy that I could let the Leader of the Opposition have and probably the chief of the Reform group.

I could read it out, Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of the members of the Committee. Long-term assistance for a family of five persons, two adults and three children. Food - first adult $35.00, additional adult $30.00, three children at $20.00 each, $60.00, for a total food allowance of $125.00; clothing and personal care - first adult $15.00, additional adult $10.00, three children at $5.00 each, Sl5.00, for a total clothing allowance of $40.00: fuel $15.00; household maintenance and utility $25.00 for a total basic long-term assistance would be $205.00.

If there was rent needed in the urban area it is $50.00 and rural area it is $25.00 and the note at the bottom says, "Additional assistance for rent up to a maximum of $50.00 per month maybe approved by the Minister." Short-term rates for the same family of five persons. Food - two adults at $25.00 each, $50.00, three children at $15.00 each. $45.00, for a total food nllowancf! Rhort-tarm $95.00: fuel - .Tunc to SeptPmn<>r n 'Jttnrtl•r ton of r-o.1l or thirty-elght r,111Jona of oil, Oc:tober, November, April and Mny 11 half ton of G 3 ~) !1

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1153 JM - 4 MR. NEARY: coal or seventy-five gallons of oil, December to March three-quarters of a ton of coal or 113 gallons of oil; clothing - consideTed only if needed to enable children or adults to attend school or to take employment or to replace clothing destroyed by diaster or for other reasons approved by the supervisor. The amount issued depends upon the circumstances but in no case should it exceed the rates of long-term assistance. Generally clothing is provided for a period not exceeding three months with the maximum monthly rates at $10.00 for each adult and $5.00 for each child.

The reftt is the same, Mr. Chairman, in urban areas $50.00, rural areas $25.00. If additional assistance is required for rent then the Minister is authorized to approve another $50.00. MR. MURPHY: Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the Minister very sincerely because this is a matter that could in discussion perhaps reflect biased opinions one way or the other as to whether we should look after welfare. I think everybody in this hon. House, in the Committee and everybody in the country, I think, must really feel the tragedy of so much unemployment and I would like at this time to congratulate the bon .

Minister. I think he has a very sympathetic outlook on this thing and I think you have to be very under­ standing and very sympathetic to deal with this Department generally. But we have reached the stage,unfortunately due to no fault of the Minister or perhaps of anybody in this bon. House whether it be Government or otherwise, where we are now at a stage, and I am just taking these figures here where we read and I will just use the figures I have for long-term and possibly short-term might be a little bit less but I think generally I am trying to base my comparasion on the figures submitted.

Now I have made up here counting rent and I average rent at $75.00 although it is $50.00 here and the hon. Minister says that in certain cases we can go to $100.00 so I based it at $75.00 which I think would be realistic and I get a total all~~ance for a family of five of $3360.00 a year -long-term. If they have children and all I am tryin~ to do at this time, Mr.

Chairman, is to compare our welfare recipients with perhaps some of the people that are in the labouring field and due to no fault of their own they are the ones that are strapped and circumscribed, if you like. by conditions over which they have no control and perhaps none of us have any control hut it 63!)0

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1153 JM- 5 MR. MURPHY: is a problem we must face at this particular time.

Now when I look at this and as I say I have come up with $3360.00 a year for this long-term with three children and I think of children attending school where anybody is working is obliged to pay $10.00 a month in most cases and I am just&Rainaveraging\ $10.00 monthly assessment to the school boards and this is whether you have one, two, three, five, seven, eight, nine or ten children, I believe~ and that would give you another $100.00 a year which would make a total of anybody on welfare, actually their total allowance,and~hey do not have to pay it I do not think, I think the boards are charitable enou~h to feel that) $3460.00 a year would be a total.

In addition to this there are free drugs which are not in this thing and what the average would be I would not even hazar~ to guess and I do not think anybody could. You might ov~r a lo~g series of statistics break it down but I am comparing this, Mr. Chairman, with the civil service salary scales that I have here before me now on pa~e (92) and I am coming down now to the manuels, I am not talking about the officers but the manuels.

Now we have arrived at $3460. per year plus the cost of drugs which I do not know what the cost would be and it is very difficult to avera~e it but we will say $40.00 anyhow and that would be $3500. a year. I noticed here what we are paying the people in this building,and I am talking about manuels which I presume is the ordinary maintenance man and this type of person, and grade (4) which is the medium grade here I would say, his salary is $3500. a year. Now that is not based on whether he has one, two or three children as he mi~ht have five, six, seven or eight children •.

So it is very difficult to access on the number of children, possibly some of them, and if we were using the welfare rates some man in this building might have six, seven or eight children and we would have to allow him extra money for clothing and so on and so forth which would be basically basing it on how we have established our welfare rates. Again I must repeat that I am not by any means insinuatin~ that we are paying too much for people to exist on.

I think if they are getting the bare existance that is about it on welfare but I am just tryin~ to bring out the fact of,fncin~ the nctual facts of life,where we are tryin~ to be very, very 63D1

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1153 JK- 6 MR. MURPHY: sympathetic towards these unfortunate people who are obliged to come to Govern- ment for assistance and people that we have in our own employ and when I say our own employ I mean the Government of Newfoundland. On page (92), I think, it is readily apparent that a messengar and I am just taking this because it actually comes to about the same amount that we are paying on welfare and this manuel, grade (4) is $3500. with increments of $100. up to $3900. a year.

So the need of putting things in their proper prospective is very, very important when we talk of welfare and when we talk of minimum wages and when we talk of living wages and social justice. Now as I say the grade (4) he might be a single man,alright he is pretty well away,but he might still be a man with five, six, seven, eight children. So, Mr. Chairman, I think it is time for us, and the Government are, I am not disputing the fact, in the process now of reviewing, revising and perhaps updating the whole cycle of civil service.

Here I think back to three or four years and perhaps it was· a novelty when the former Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Ottenheimer, suggested at that time,and I am glad to see now that it is being carried out or perhaps it was the idea of Government, we are not trying to claim any credit, but I think it was a darn good idea no matter whose idea it was of doing away with the term welfare and now we have Social Services and Rehabilation. I think it is an excellent idea particularily with the emphasis on Rehabilation. Now, Mr.

Chairman, perhaps it might be of some interest to the Committee where I would read an extract, if it is permissable, from the latest edition of the Toronto Globe and Mail, June 5th, 1970, dealinp, with this same subject. "In an attempt to make its budget stretch over the year Metro Social Services Committee has asked employable welfare recipients to work part-time, to pay for their own drugs, glasses and dentures, these are a kind of fringe benefits and I do not know if we go as far as that with dentures hut I think drugs are included,perha!)s glasses are not.

Mounting unemployment is responsible for rising expenditures by the Department.• Now this is in the great city of Toronto that we hear that all Newfoundlanders p,o to seek employment. "~fountinR II unemployment is responsible for risinr. expenditures by the Department,nnd nt th£' <'nrl of Apri I M .. tro wnn Rupnort1nr, ?"l.?OR per!'lons in thP unemployable cater,ory. G3~2

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1153 JM- 7 MR. MURPHY: This is,! presume, the long-term assistance where people are sick, disable, perhaps widows and so on and so forth. I presume this is what we would call long-term, the unemployable, people in other words that ape not available for employment at any type of work. 17,086 persons, and this is an increase of 5,000 from a year ago, in the employable category. These are people who perhaps lost their jobs or what we call short-term assistance. Until June 1st all welfare recipients get a card with their welfare cheques which allows them to get f~ee drugs.

When the June cheques were they distributed _were sent only to unemployables, in other words they were with- drawn from those who were available for employment. Last night Metro Social Service Commissioner, John Anderson, said he realized that the employment situation was bad but there are at least one dozen jobs in the want columns for anyone to work by the day.

He said that men could earn about $10.00 a day in a car wash and might even earn that much cutting grass, mowing lawns,1n other words, if a man can earn $10.00 a day for just five days of the month he would have $50.00 and then it goes on to say, "Do you not think he should buy aspirins for his wife or cough syrup out of that?" Earlier this year Metro adopted Mr. Anderson's recommendation which allowed welfare recipients, and this is very, very important on the point that I asked the Minister there a few weeks ago, allowed welfare recipients to retain part of their money they earn on part-time jobs.

In other words not because they earn $40.00 or $50.00 that immediately the Welfare Department '"ould cut that from their $70.00 or $80.00. In other words they would give them a chance perhaps to get a little few of the little things around them that the ordinary human being requires to make himself a bit more comfortable because we felt we should be encouraging people to work part-time where possible. Now I think this is the very, very core of this and I know the hon. ~1inister agrees with me because in his book this is what he is trying to get across to people.

If there is anything to be done get out and ~et that whether it is five dollars you can earn or six or seven or eight and we will not do anvthinr, to prejudice your receiving enough to bring ·up your family. A man who ht"n<IH 11 Lun! lv of four And who receive!'! $120.00 in welfare is allowed to G 3 :; 3

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1153 JH - 8 MR. MURPHY: retain $70.00 if h.e earns $100.00 from casual work. In other words if a man goes out ~d earns $100.00 a month the Government says~ "Alright you can retain $170.00 of that and in other words then we will cut you down $30.00 from your $32o:oo which would give you $29.0.00." It is to be run under the honour system, in other words a man does get work when he visits his welfare officer and says, "Look I ~rned $20.00, $:30.00, $40.00 las·t month." After a person declares his earnings the amount he is not allowed to retain will be deducted from the following months cheque.

So he earns this month and next month you say to him or the Minister or the Department says, ·~ow look you earned $100.00, alright $70.00 is your own but the other $:30 .• 00 will be deducted next month from your cheque." Since the system has just •

June 8th. 1970 Tape 1154 PK - 1 MR. MURPHY: started Metro does not know how much it is worth. In other words, as an experiment they are ~oing to try it, but with the basic thin~ in mind, not to have the welfare recipients, if he is able.to work, just sit home and wait for his cheque. In other words, if you can ~et a job, go out and get it and we will not deduct it totally from your assistance. Mr. Anderson said; the system helps welfare recipients because they can earn a bit of money and be better off. In other words, as I say a~ain; they do not prejudice their case with the Government.

Metro will care for those who have emer~ency needs, or those who need expensive drugs, in other words, if they are on a lon~ term drug, you know this is not deducted, they will still get these. The Commissioner said his office would also move anyone from the employable to the unemployable category, even if they have a cold. If a man is sick then he is unemployed. In other words, a man might be sick, have the flu or something else, well you do not a~ain prejudice his case because he is not working, although he was not employed. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I believe, basically this is what we are aiming for, when I say "we", the Department of Welfare everybody and I am not sayinJ;~: that I am now suggesting this, because we have p.one over this, year after year. The Premier has stated on many occasions that he has gone to Ottawa, and says, ''in Heaven's name, look we are wasting $40 million a year. There are so many thin~s to be done here in this Province, can we not use this money in a productive sense!'' And I say this has been gone over for years and years. But it is still the big problem that we must face.

In this Province,particularly, we are,due to locations, so on and so forth. were there are so l'!any, RS I re11d here Toronto is quite alarmed because there were 30,000 persons on welfare. I do not knm• how that compares with ours, perhaps the minister mip.ht rive us the total numher that are receivinr, assistance in our categori.es. Rut, ! heli.eve, in fairness, with the Province, '1-d th our potential, we have far !!'ore than that to trv to hrinr, alonp. G3~5

JUne JJth. 1970 Tape 1154 PK - 2 MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, on this, and I know every member gets it. Not onlv I but everv memb~r of this hon. House is getting dozens upon dozens upon dozens of requests for some type of jobs. They have been to Manpower, they have been to Manpower, will you phone so and so, will you write so and so, this is a chore that we all go through, and gladly if we ·thought we could get anything from it. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I feel that this should become a very vital part of our welfare or our Socia~ Services and Rehabilitation system, that is some type of employment agency within that department and perhaps any other department of Government that realize - and a few weeks ago I made a statement with regard to Come-by-Chance. It was stated that the people of Placentia area, who have been recently laid off due to - would get first preference, this was an intimation that we got.

Now I have nothing against the people of Placentia, any more than any other - but how many men, God help us in this Province, have been going from month to month,for months and months, just beating their brains out trying to get a job7 I maintain, Mr. Chairman, that the Department of Welfare has a list, I know they must have a list because they are paying - they must have a list of people who for many months, many, many months, and everyone of us have it, even here in the heart of the city of St.

John's we got these people, and you will find some of them are in their forties, or a bit older, and I can think of so many that were suddenly, with this waterfront development,thrown on the street, men who have worked hard all of their lives. And these are only some. And you have a lot of younger men that just cannot find jobs.

And I am just thinking now that if the department carrying on its work,which is started, and I am right behind it, this rehabilitation and anything that the department is doing, and anything that I can do in anyway to work along, I will guarantee the minister or anybody else, as we all will. I am not just doing this to be a hero, but I think we all will to help him out on it. But I believe there should be a catalogue of these people, a p:eneral history, just what type of work they can do. There 11re paoplc 11uttablo tor work, but not hnnvy work.

June Jth. 1970 Tape ll!ilt PK - 3 MR. MURPHY: There last week, I had a case and I went to the hon. the Minister for Labour, he was very sympathetic and he took all the particulars. Where a man had been working heretin the City of St. John's for twenty -five years, driving a truck, and he injured his back in 1968. He was on Workmen's ~ompensation, doing fairly well, he was earning an average of $85 or $90 a week in his own area. He has five children, one of these is at University. A few months ago Workmen's Compensation says, we can no longer continue paying you.

You are now fit for work, but you cannot do heavy work. You must do light work. And he is getting an allowance now of $45.00 a week. Now there is a man, and I know every body has this type, you know, that are not any longer the responsibility of Workmen's Compensation. They can work, but it has got to be light work. Everybody knows that it is very difficult to get any kind of light work, which would be janitorial work perhaps, or commissioner work or something like this. This is the only type of work he is fit for.

But there is a man, I say, has worked all of his life, after twenty-five years he is just put on the street because he is no good to the firm he worked with. As a matter of fact, it was City Council, cannot longer employ him in that job, because he cannot do the job. And they have no light work jobs for him. But the hon. the Minister of Labour is working along with me to try and see what we can do with him. But this is one of the examples of people who are caught in the middle wanting to work and just not able to do or take the job he is used to; but perhaps some lighter work or different type of work. So, Mr.

Chairman, on these few words, and realizing that we are not the only ones faced ,.with this problem, as I said the great city of Toronto is suppose to be the fountain of wealth, and anybody who goes there just steps off the plane or off the train and somebody is waiting to put you in a job. they are facing the position now, But we cannot afford, as far as these people are concerned. to say. "look, we will have a Come-by-Chance, or we will have something else." Wonderful thing , if we can get it, but 1 do not think we can any longer wait to say that these will accommodate these people.

We _have got to get down - I mentioned a ·few weeks a~o about so many people crying for help, wife, ,the house~ good,matured women who could go in and 63!)7

June 8th. 1970 Tape 115~ PK - 4 MR. MURPHY: keep house and they are getting very well looked after today, and there are so many people, who are looking for people to do odd jobs around the house, a bit of mowing lawns and t~ings like this. But the barrier has been I think, that a chap would not risk losing his welfare assistance because he is earning $10 or $12 a week. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would just say on this, that I sympathize greatly with the minister, and I sympathize very greatly.too, very much, with those who are forced to accept welfare. - And the comparison, and I have had them to come in and say, I would rather quit work than work for what I am getting, when I can get more on welfare assistance. And the comparison in the welfare payments, and the hon. the ~ember for Bonavista North, I think, was the one who brought it up, the very low amounts that we are getting. And I agree with him.

But when we check again, that some of these wages here, that we see in our own Civil Service, and this applies to not only here . but in many other areas were we have grades of workers in the building getting less than they would be on this assistance, you know. I think, we have to say that we have got a terrific problem on our hands. So, Mr.

Chairman, as I say, I ~eel that the Department of Welfare,hav- ing changed its name to Social Services and Rehabilitation,has to take a long hard look at those on their welfare roles, and anybody that has been off or on welfare, or out of ~ employment for any great leng~ of time, I think, should be the first to try and get these people employment. Now we talk about the great Churchill Falls. I do not know how anybody gets a job at Churchill Falls. I do not know of any member in this House has yet procured a job for anyone in Churchill Falls.

I am sure I have eighty or a hundred that have come to me, they have been to this one and that one, and someone else, and they will tell me, that unless someone sends for him in Churchill Falls, in other words, if you got a buddy working there, and he gives his name to someone, he can get a job. MR. SMALLWOOD: ••••••• Canada Manpower. f-IR. 1-'liRPHY: Canada Manpower. [ know, ~1r. Premier, but they tell me, you know, ~a far a~ ~otn~ to Canada Manpower, and I nm not crlttcizinR Canada 63n8

June fth. 1970 Tape 1154 PK - 5 MR. MURPHY: ~mnpower, I am not criticizing the individual in it, but they tell me it is just as good to go over to the Arts and Culture Centre, as far as Churchill Falls is concerned. I would like someone at sometime, I do not know, if the Minister of Labrador Affairs can tell us, what happens down there. (The hon. the member for Labrador West is not in his seat). But how in Heaven's name do we get a man into Churchill Falls? HR. HICKEY: MR. MURPHY: MR. HICKEY: MR. MURPHY: Write Churchill Falls office. Write Churchill Falls office, where is it? In the Crosbie Building.

I have send more people there, it is just as well to go into Geoff Carnell's next door. HR. HICKEY: Give me any names you have, and I will see what I can do for you. HR. MURPHY: But it is an actual fact. It is an actual fact. And I wonder how close Government is to this Churchill Falls employment. The Minister of Welfare, as I say, must have many hundreds of employable men. Does he in anyway have communication with the employers at Churchill Falls or any other development that is on the go? But I would like to know the formula? HR. SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. gentleman like to have the latest information? MR.

MURPHY; I would, when I am finished. I am only looking for information. MR. SMALLWOOD: Inaudible. HR. MURPHY: I am just about finished, Sir, I only speak for ten minutes, I am not like some people, I do not want to take up all the time of the House. But that is what it hasically is, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that the Depa.rtment of Helfare immediately now get into it, when I mean get into it, get into it.

It is all right to say that I am checking so and so out, there are people there, I know the hon. the minister must think they work with the department, perhaps they are long termed civil servants, because they are coming back and forth so often. I do not know, but he should put them on pension, not talk about giving them a welfare order. But, basically that is it, Sir, and I feel that with this new ~rend for rehabilitation, and you know you cannot rehabilitate anybody by having them curling or watching hockey R&mes, 1 think the way to rehabilitate them is to try to get them a job r."lno

June 8th. 1970 Tape 1154 PK - 6 MR. MURPHY: somewhere whether it is menial or major or whatever type job it is. And I would suggest that we need a mini-employment agency within the Department of Welfare who have their fingers on every person who is unemployed and needs assistance. so. Mr. Chairman. that is all,and I would like to know about Churchill Falls. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman. as of May 27th. the number of Newfoundlanders working at Churchill Falls were as follows: Manual -2.858, 75.1 percent of all manual workers on May 27th. were Newfoundlanders, of a total of 3,802.

The others consisted of 9l6 from Quebec, and eight others. making a total manual of 3,802. The non-manual were numbered 1447. This would be the top administrative supervising and engineering personnel of the project managers Acres Bechtel. they are top administrative supervising and engineerin~ personnel, and the top personnel of the contractors, the contracting firms, the total 1447 of whom 495 are Newfoundlanders or 34.2 percent.

Now when they are all put together. the manual and the non-manual everything.at Churchill Falls, everything but everything we find that sixty­ four percent are Newfoundlanders. 1447 non-manual, 495 of them are Newfoundlanders, that is the top supervisory engineering administrative personnel at Churchill Falls - 1447 of whom about 500 or one-third. it is a little over a third, 34.2 percent are Newfoundlanders.

It is too low, I think, it could somehow be. but this will interest the committee,namely: the fact that since May 20th. this is as of May 27th. but after May 20th., 196 persons where hired in Newfoundland, this is up to June 8th., I am talking about now. As of today, up until now since May 20th. 196 have been hired in Newfoundland and in addition to the 196 that were hired, there were eighty-one they could not hire, and did not, and did hire them outside the Province. They said they could not, therefore they did not- because they could not and they did not.

And the reason they could uot was that they did not find those persons to fill the particular jobs, they did not have the qualifications. They did hire 196, and they failed to hire eighty-one, but they did hire the eighty-one outside the Province. I ~et this table delivered to me, I think, at least once a month, or once a fortnight, I 6400

June 8th. 1970 Tape 1154 PK - 7 MR. S~~LWOOD: do not remember, I think sometimes it .is once a fortnight, and sometimes it is once a month in the dead of winter when things are slow, they give it to me monthly, and I keep a sharp eye on it. We do not fall below sixy percent, it runs between sixty and sixty-five percent of every job on the project, manual and non-manual, the number of Newfoundlanders runs from sixty to sixty-five percent. I am not happy with that percentage, I do not understand why there would be 936 manual workers from Quebec.

Frankly, I do not see why 1000, virtually 1000, - 936 anyway manual workers should be in there from Quebec. I do not understand it. I do not get it. I mean, you know, they are not to be got in Newfoundland. It seems to me they can, unless now, and by manual they mean, and 1 am sure they do, heavy equipment operators, skilled operators of heavy and expensive machinery for which they demand men,not just with the knowledge, but with the experience to operate, and of course, Mr. Chairman, when you have spare men, when you have two men looking for one job, the man,the employer, he could be very, very particular.

If you have two jobs for one man, then the employers takes what men he can get. Today you have a surplus of men all ac~oss Canada, and especially Newfoundland, and the contractors with heavy equipment and expensive equipment, perhaps from their purely selfish point of view are not to be blamed, if they insist on getting men of top experience, and therefore lay down as a minimum; you have got to have five years experience.

And we thus get men trained at great expense, Federal expense mostly,in the upgrading schools. at Port aux Port Bell Island, Carbonear, Happy Valley, being turned down because they have not had the five years experience. And yet, you cannot blame' the contractors insisting on five years experience, if they can get men with five years experience. As long as they can continue getting them, they are going to get'them, and so would any bon. member of this House, if he were the contractor.

If he had expensive machinery, he would want thoroughly experience men operatinp. that machinery, and not men who just sort of come out of an upgrading school. So, therefore, we have 936 men from Quebec working down in 6401

,. June 8th. 1970 Tape 1154 PK - 8 MR. SMALLWOOD: Churchill Falls right now, 936 manual workers. Now these are not labourers, these are not pick and shovel men. "anual means if you are not an engineer. If you are not a top administrative" or supervising or engineering person, then you are manual. If you are an accountant, a cost accountant, if you are electrical ~ngineer, or a mechanical engineer, or civil engineer, or any kind of an engineer, if you are in a top supervisory job, a top administrative job, then you are non-manual and anything else I take it would be manual.

Manual therefore would include the most skilled operators of all kinds, and we are not too plentifully supplied with them. But notwithstanding the fact that we are not too plentifully supplied with them , I find it difficult to understand why, right now today, well as of May 27th. there should now be the best part of a 1000 manual workers in there from Quebec and eight other persons from elsewhere. HON. F.W. ROHE: Mr. Chairman, without delaying .the committee torlong, I think the Premier is mtirely correct in assuming that one of the things workin~ against our Newfoundlanders is this five year requirement.

AN HON. MEMBER: Sometimes it is three years. MR. ROWE, F.W. Sometimes it is three years, sometimes five, it is finally increasing,it is five years. with most

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1155 . Page 1 Mr. Rowe (F.W.): of the people from my district have come to me looking for jobs at Churchill and saying that they have not been able to get them, aLmost invariably, they are demanding five years, and I have been only two years or three years or even four years or even one year whatever the case may be. This seems to me, Mr.

Chairman. to be something that more leniency, more latitude should be given by the Churchill Falls' companies or the contractors working down there, because we in Newfoundland, as the Premier has just indicated, we do have hundreds of men available for some of these jobs but who do not have the five years or even three years for the very simple fact, that it is only this last three or four years that we have turned out large numbers of trained personnel. We always had a few but only a handful relatively;

whereas today we are turning them out in large numbers, but still they do not have the experience. I must say that it is very frustrating to me to have some fellow who has been two years out of Stephenville, the upgrading centre there, heavy equipment training there, come to me and say 1 look, I have my course. I did well and so and so on, but I cannot get down to Churchill Falls. I cannot get a job there. There is one other point, Mr. Chairman. I think in fairness to the Department of Welfare, I should say this, because I happen to have first hand knowledge of it.

The Leader of the Opposition said that a welfare officer or the Department of Welfare should be - I think he used the word, " a mini employment agency." Now, to my knowledge the majority of welfare officers or welfare centres in Newfoundland are really that,to some degree, I can certainly speak from my own district. The welfare centre at Grand Falls there, Mr. Budgell the supervisor and his men under him there, they certainly know when jobs are available.

Over and over again, I know that peorle have come to them looking for assistance and they said, "well look, Price need men somewhere:'{if he is a logger}."Price need men in that camp or 6403

.June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1155 Page 2 Mr. Rowe (F.W,); there is some work available with Goodyear construction or with Lincoln constructbn. They are looking for truckers. They are looking for this and that ',1 I think that this is repeated all over Newfounland - some probably notso much as others, but I do think that most of the welfare the officers in Newfoundland are on the alert- they are on~quayvee all the time with regard to getting employment for men. They know it. They are in touch with Manpower, and they are in touch,with the contractors.

I can certainly say this; in Grand Falls, which serves Central Newfoundland - that welfare office there serves Central Newfoundland. They are in touch with all the leading employers all the time including, of course, Manpower and if there is any job available anywhere up on Red Indian Lake or out on the Point Leamington Road, they know it, and they are on the alert to see to it that people who are available for work do go to work and do not get relief, when they should be at work. MR.

CROSBIE: I will not apologize for delaying the committee, the last speaker did, because I do not agree with that whole concept anyway. This committee is supposed to consider the estimates and if anybody has anything pertinent to say this is the time that it should be said and it is not delaying the committee. That is the committee's job to consider the estimates. As far as Churchtll Falls is concerned, I presume, we can discuss that whole situation, when we get to Labrador Affairs. That is the most suitable place. I just have a couple of points in connection with the welfare estimates, generally.

Would the minister tell the House - I remember two years ago the Government decided to take on about twenty or twenty-five additional welfare officers, because there were a lot of complaints at that time that there were a lot of .abuses,of people receiving short-term assistance who sllould not be, and there were about twenty to twenty-five positions created. Could the minister tell us whether they were taken on and as a result, were there more violations discovered or how the thing is proceeding now? Is this cut out? Certainly, there has not been many complaints lately in the last year or so of abuses.

Could the minister tell us about that?

June 8th., 1970 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no 1155 Page 3 Secondly, I notice that disabled persons' allowances, this year, are $50,000. There is probably some easy explanation, but in the public accounts for the end of March, 1969, disabled persons received $938,000. Now there is probably some change. Th~ come in under some category or some different category, but what is the reason for that - $938,000 in 1969 and in these estimates, only $50,000for disabled persons. Another point, Mr.

Chairman, which I would like the minister to clarify and that is; does the department now pay the water and sewer rates in municipalities where there are people receiving welfare assistance and they are unable - I remember, some arrangement was made about two years ago that this should be done. Is that still being done? Because the municipalities, in question, could not afford the loss of revenue and I think the Welfare Department now makes these utility payments for them The minister might confirm that. The final point I am interested in, Mr. Chairman, is the business of purchasing of houses.

In answer to several questions, the minister said that from April 1,1965 to March 31, 1968 - 153 houses were purchased by the Government in this Province for the use of people receiving assistance from the Government and that the cost was $190,000. The cheapest one was $300 and the most expensive $4000 - $4,500. Forty-three of these were in the name of the GQvernment , the minister and one hundred and ten were given to the occupants. The title to these homes was placed in the name of the occupant receiving welfare assistance.

From April 1, 1968 to September 25, 1969. there were sixty-three more houses purchased at a cost of $32,(00 and a low of $400 and a high of $3,500. Thirty-three had title in the minister and thirty had title in the name of the occupants. This is now taken over by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. Would the minister confirm that from now on - I think this is now the case - if the Government is going to buy properties . around the Province, the ownership let !!"'"ll '" '"'"'"'" 111 I loP 1-IIVplllln .. ut .

I ,-.,ur:l.t .. ,- It tu he extraordinary that any of thelia. pr-operti .. a . were t>Ver - lh<tl lht> llwnert~hlp uf thaiQ Wl.l!ll uver

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1155 · Page 4 Mr. Crosbie. given to the people receiving welfare assistance is most peculiar. I do not know why it was done but it certainly should not be done any longer. I understand now that the idea is for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing c~rporation to own the proper ties and rental of the Departm~nt of We]Br~: The Department of Welfare will get fifty per cent of the rent back from the Government of Canada under the Social Assistance Plan and that they will all be owned and operated by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

Would the minister confirm it that this is now the case? He might just say. I would be interested to know why title of these properties ; were ever put in the names of the occupants? Why that ever occurred would be interesting to know,why that·was ever the situation? There was one other story I was told. The minister might tell whether it is right or not. That the Department of Welfare is guaranteeing supplies for fishermen who go to Labrador to fish this summer. Is there any truth to that?

The story has it that the Department of Welfare will pay off the suppliers of the fishermen in a certain amount per month, or will guarantee supplies for fishermen who are going to Labrador to fish this summer. Is there any truth to that or not? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the bon. members who have spoken on this heading so far raised some very interesting questions. First of all. I would like to answer a question that was raised by the Leader of the Opposition. He wanted to know how many heads of families were presently on short-term assistance and how many on long-term assistance? The latest figures I have, Mr.

Chairman, are up to the end of April. As good . as the computer is, it apparently cannot give us the information as fast as we would like to have it. As 6£ the end of April, 1970, there were 8,698 heads of families on short-term assistance and 15,221 heads of families on long-term assistance. MR. CROSBIE: That is 15,000 is it? 6406'

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1155 Page 5 MR. NEARY: Yes, 15,221 on long-term. I think, although I appreciate the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Chairman, but really in our minds, we should be thinking about two distinct separate groups of people. Those who are on long-term assistance have been, as they say in Newfoundland, turned down by the doctor. They are unfit for work. They have one foot in the grave. They are not employable as the bon. member for Bonavista North knows. These people - you cannot relate their income in anyway to those who are employed. They are unfit for work,period.

Recently we redefined the allowable income for that type of person. and I would like to read for the benefit of the committee, Mr. Chairman what is now an allowable income for people on long- term assistance, that is heads of households on long-term assistance who are considered to be unemployable. We can only take the doctors word that they are unemployable, because he has certified them as being unfit for work. These people,' Mr.

Chairman, will be allowed salary and wages from part-time employment of the applicant and his spouse and other casual earnings of such persons from any source including, without preJudice to the foregoing, from berry picking, dress making, mending and sewing, laundrying, domestic work, handicrafts, small scale farming, home baking, small game hunting, selling newspapers, repairing fishing equipment, mowing lawns, washing windows, restoring storm win~ows baby si~ting. hairdressing, cobbling and so on. Now, Mr.

Chairman, up to the time that we redefined allowable income, we discovered that some of those on long-term assistance - who, remember now.who had been certified as unfit for work of any kind by the doctor - were moonlighting and through no fault of their own because they thought that they were allowed to earn up to $90 a month. I think the bon. member for St. John's East (Extern), I think, knows what I am talking about. So, what they were doing in actual fact, Mr. Chairman, some of them were working, actually, in fish plants. In fish 6407

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1155 Page 6 Hr. Neary. plants standing side by side with a person who was considered to be employable. They were competing in the labour market. They were standing side by side with these people. They would earn their $90 a month and then they would quit, and then they would come back the next month and stand side by side with workers in fish plants, earn another $90 a month and then quite again.

Bow this was very unfair to the people who were considered to be employable and who were actually working and paying the taxes, providing the budget of my department to enable us to issue the cheques to those who were unfit for work. We also found people, Mr. Chairman, driving school buses and the people who had the contracts for school buses were hiring these men for $90 a month, So, actually what we were doing was subsidizing the peqie who had the bus contracts.

The hon member for St, John's East (Extern) is smiling because he knows exactly what I am talking about. we also found some of these people who,now remember were certified unfit for work by the doctor,working in service stations part time, working in offices. In other words, Mr. Chairman, they were working in the competitive labeur market and some were actually fishing, believe it or not, They had their lobster licence and they were out lobster fishing and salmon fishing,feeling that they were allowed to earn this $90 a month.

Now I do not know how they arrived at this understanding but th~s, in my view, was morally wrong because they were competing with people who were actually working and providing the taxes that enabled us to pay out these cheques to people on long-term assistance. So, we have changed it and we have redefined allowable income so that these people now will only be allowed, as it says here, to become engaged in salaries and wages from part-time employment, and I have listed what the part-time employment is. 6408

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 115.5 Page 7 Mr. Neary. Now the other group , Mr. Chairman, and I am inclined to agree with the Leader of the Opposition that those on short-term assistance,anu ·I read the item that he read from the Toronto Globe and Mail. This is the philosophy of my department and the Government that eventually,when we can provide the resources,that these people will be allowed to earn so much money without having it deducted from their short-term assistance . Now in the last year we have taken the first . infant step.

Prior to about, say, six months ago, those on short-term assistance were only - their entitlement was based on gross income. We have now changed that . and their entitlement, say up to six months on~ will be based on net income. In other words, Mr. Chairman, those who go out and try to rehabilitate themselves, try to get back to work,will be allowed legitimate expenses. As I say this is only an infant step in trying to reach the objective that the bon. Leader of the Opposition mentioned.

I certainly agree with him,and eventually we may reach the stage where we will be able to define allowable income for those people. As far as having a placement

section in my•partment, Mr. Chairman, I have been resisting that, because I do not think (although sometimes I have second thoughts about it) that we should have a placement

section in my department. I think that there are other departments of Government both in the Province and in the Government of Canada where they are more equipped to deal with placing people for employment than we are. Although the bon, Leader of the Opposition might rem~mber that recently 1 announced that I am having my Director of Training and Research list for us the number of girls beyond compulsory school age limit who are unemployed and living at home right now, in relative idleness and with no real prospects for the future. Most of these are unfit for office work, and when we have this report, Mr. Chairman. 6409

June 8th. • 1970 Tape no 1155 Page 8 Mr. Neary. then the next step will be to try and get some training for these girls, I think 1 used the term there a few weeks ago. they would be trained as what I would like to call "family aides~ You know. this would be a new career for those girls and not only would we be helping the girls Dut we would be helping the housewives because as the hon. Leader of the Opposition pointed out, there is a considerable demand in Newfoundland and Labrador and right across Canada. Mr. Chairman. for family aides.

Now as far as the abuses of social assistance at th~ moment are concerned, Mr. Chairman - this point was raised by the hon. member from St. John's West - 1 think that at the moment it is reduced to a minimum. We are conscious of the fact that social assistance is always open for abuse. We like to think that we have reduced it down to about as far as we can. We catch the odd one and when we do. of course, they are prosecuted. As far as water and sewerage rates are concerned, Mr. Chairman, we do not pay water and sewerage rates for anyb~dy on short-term assistance.

We will only pay water and sewerage rates for families on long-term assistance providing that they can prove to the welfare officer beyond any shadow of doubt that they cannot meet these payments out of their $25 a month household maintenance allowanc~ already included in their long-term assistance "cheque. Therefore, the onus of responsibility there, Mr. Chairman, is on the client. Purchasing of houses, the hon. member for St. John's West is quite correct. This is now being turned over to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

The only part that the field staff of my department play in this is to establish an entitlement. Once the entitlement is established then we make a recommendation to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. The reason that the house was purchased in he name of the minister before or let me put it this way: the reason it was put in the hands of the client was because we could not issue material for repairs for that house, if the client did not own it. So, therefore, it was expedient at the ttme to. ~ut.it in the hands of . .... · ~· ":. ' ·'"~") . . 6410

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1155 Page 9 Mr. Neary. the client as quickly as possible. What we are doing now, Hr. Chairman, is that the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation had become the landlords and we pay the rent of the clients to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation when necessary. But even at that, Mr. Chairman, I do not think it will be possible for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to own houses all over the Province, because you will own a little house here and a little house there.

I think our philosophy of the future should be that once the house is paid for, once we ha~e paid enough rent to equal the purchase of the house then, I think, they should give the kouse to the client because then he has more respect for it and then he has a greater interest in it, in the upkeep so on and so forth. MR. CROSBIE: are they? MR. NEARY: These are only for people on long-term assistance, No short-term and leng term. Now as far as the arrangements for fishermen are concerned. I am trying to give brief answers here, Mr. Chairman.

I would be quite prepared to go into greater detail, if the members want me to. This arrangenent for fishermen has been on the books now for years. What happens is that a man who goes fishing- that. we will make an arrangement and thil has to be a signed contract between the supplier and the fishermen whereby the supplie~ will look after the man's family while he is fishing. But he has to sell his fish to that employer so that if he has a good season, he may be able to pay his own way.

All we do is establish credit ~dth the supplier and if the man has a good season, if he caa ·pay his own way, then the credit is wiped off out of his cash. MR. CROSBIE: It does not matter if he is going to Labrador or not? MR. NEARY: It does not make any difference. What happened, I think, 6411

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1155 Page 10 Mr. Neary. Mr. Chairman, und tho bon. member ie probably rl~ht that the fishermen, the floaters in Labrador did not realize that this service was available until this year. So what we will do, we will grubstake the floater going to Labrador for the equivalent of short-term assistance would which would be $25 a month in food and we .... look after his family while he is there,providing that we can enter-into an agreement that when he disposes of his catch,whatever his share of it is, that the credit will be written off. In other words, he will not receive it twice. MR.

CROSBIE: In connection with the housing part. The minister ~ays that when the house is paid for the title would be put in the name of the recipient. One of the houses purchased in accordance to an ~swer here was - it cost the Government some $10,000 odd. Now how can that be justified,that that house would be given to somebody on welfare assistance after it was paid for! I mean it seems a peculiar thing. You know a person who is working is in an equivalent house and he has to pay for it himself. How can the Government justify making a gift of $10,000 to somebody like that. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, in that case, we probably would not give the title of the house to that individua1. I am only thinking of remote parts of the Province. Because in the urban areas, I think, the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation should keep the houses; especially, of the type that the hon. member just mentioned. Now, Mr. Chairman, as far as those on short-term assistance are concerned, on this side a the House we are very conscious of the fact that the rates are low and I think I mentioned on Friday that there has been an increase in the expenditure of my department of 9.7 per cent over 1967-1968.

But I think, Mr. Chairman, that this is deceptive because power the purchasing~of the dollar, as everybody knows, has declinad greatly so1 therefore , I would be inclined to agree that those who have to come to us through unemployment, through handicap, through no fault of their own, for short-term assistance, for e~rgency assistance, in between employment 6412

June 8th., 1970 'Iape no 1155 Page 11 Mli. Neary. opportunities, are really struggling and we are very conscious of that, Mr. Chairman. As I pointed out on Friday, the only hope that I can hold out at the moment is having the formula of the Canada Assistance Plan changed so that the have-not provinces will get a greater share of the cost of social welfare programs and then we would be able to improve the rates. MR. SAUNDERS: Mr.

Chairman, I heard the minister there in his statement saying that unfishermen starting to fish who have been on welfare I wonder if he could tell me,if a fisherman had started out. on Friday past or Thu.rsday and has $9.00 worth of fish for his first catch, after having to go and get supplies and get a few things to get him !1.sbing. lHe would have to get a bit of paint for his boat} would it be right for that man to go up to the welfare officer on Friday and be cut $20.00 because he got $9.00 worth of fish?

I thought the understanding was that a welfare recipient would be looked after until he got on his feet, started fishing. :~I did not think it would be right to stop When the food from a man even before he got paid for his fish. -_14. man has to catch fish, remember he has to cure that fish before he ean even hope to know what he is going to get.

One man I know right now - over this past week - I know it is not the minister's fault, because the minister has explained it very carefully, I think it needs to be looked into, because in my district where they are just starting fishing and if a man goes out today, on his first day out, and he gets,' say, - well right·• now he can get ~re, but last week, say a man went out and got $9.00 worth of fish and came in and sold it. Well he did not sell it, he had $9.00 worth waiting and it would take hima 1ohile before we can get that. He probably owes it to the merchant. He takes that.

I vonder if the minister could tell me if the program is that it would be charged back. I think that is the understanding that they :would look 6413

June 8th •• 1970 Tape no 1155 Page 12 Mr. Sannders. after it and it would be charged back to them. MR. NEARY: Yes. 6414

JuneS 1970 Tape 1156 page 1. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we establish credits for fishermen when we are asked. You see, this is , most fishermen,! would say ninety-five per cent or highe~do not come to us for this, to make this arrangement. It is only when we are asked that we enter into such an agreement. Most fishermen do not make this arrangement because they realize that if they have a good season they have to pay it back. You know, we do not pay it twice. And it is only when we are asked Mr.

Speaker, and if the hon. memiter would give me the name of the person to which he refers well, I would be glad to have it looked into. But you know, it is not a thing where it is done automatically. of the fishermen. It is done at the request MR.HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, some of the items I wanted to discuss have been covered, covered very well by my colleague the Leader of the Opposition. There are a few that I would like to comment on. First of all when one gets into a discussion on welfare they are sticking their neck out or being taken wrong or misquoted or something of that nature.

All of a sudden they are against welfare or against people getting something for nothing. But Sir, in my opinion l have said this in this House on a number of occasions\ the best money that we spent is in this vote that we are debating right now, this $11 million. There is no $11 million in the rest of the budget that we spend which is as important and which is as genuine as this one. We can talk of economic - development and education and everything else,but Sir, nothing gets as close to the average citizen as food, clothing, shelter and all the rest that goes with it.

We are in fact keeping body and soul together, and providing some kind of livelihood for those unfortunate citizen~ who cannot help themselves. One is therefore running a risk to get involved in terms of making some suggestions to help or to improve the system, because they run that ~isk of being labelled as being anti-welfare or not in favour of the expenditure of those funds. However, l think,Sir, one has to take that gamble. Because we are dealing with, not only witi1 money, that is not the important aspect of it1 what is important,Hr. Chairman, 6415

June 3 1970 Tape 1156 page 2. is that we are dealing with human beings. We are dealing with people, children. And we must get the best system that is possible, not to save money, but to provide more adequately for those people who are in receipt of government allowances. And,Sir, I have already stated how I feel about the changing of the name.

I think that we as members of this House should set the example by attempting to drop that word welfare ourselves because,while the name has been changed,! note that every time the minister read, where there was any reference to this department, the welfare department is still referred to, the minister is still referred to as the Minister bf Welfare. And certainly the sooner we drop it the better. Because I could not agree more with other members who have expressed their views on this;that there is a stigma attached. to thet word and the sooner we get rid of it the better.

Figures quoted by the ~1inister,for a family of five, are interesting indeed, for many aspects. For example, Mr. Chairman, just a few short years ago,when I was in the employ of that department,this same family the minister now refers to , for a food allowance for a month, on short-term assistance, received $54. He now receives $95. Certainly this is a step in the rip,ht direction. Mr. Chairman, ninety-five is insufficient and I am sure that no one here will deny for a family of five · $95 a month for a food allowance is not enough to provide the kind of food that people need.

Therefore, any possibility of increase in rate would be welcome as long as some measures are taken to maintain some kind of control 1 maybe a little more rigid control. Certainly.~ir, the answer or the meat of the whole subjec~when one discusses welfare,is not to cut back,is not to save money but to see that the money goes to the people who deserves it, who need it, and to see that it goes there in sufficient amount. When we talk of abuses,Mr. Chairman, we do not talk of abuses to save money for the treasury. We talk about it because it is wrong. We talk about 6416

June 8 1970 Tape 1156 page 3. it because all of us can see next door to may be that person who has seen fit to abuse this programme. People who need more than they are able to get onder the regulations and under the law. It must obviously irritate all people. to see someone get something when they do not deserve it while we see so many people who genuinely deserve more than they are getting and cannot get it. 1 think it has to be looked at in this perspective.

Sir, there is something to be said for some of the people who are in rec~ipt of short-term assistance I have maintained as long as I have been connected with the department and indeed since,that there are people considered employable 1 in receipt of short-term assistance,who indeed are not employable. They are listed. in the labour force. Mr. Chairman.when they should not be. This would obviously mean an increase in the vote for long-term assistance~ because if we took them out of the category they are in it would naturally increase the amount of money that we spend on long-term assistance. But,Hr.

Chairman, it makes little sense to have someone in receipt of short-term assistance which really is not sufficient. And I think we all have to agree with that. It makes little sense to include that person in the labour force when he or she is unable to work.

And I would venture to bet,Sir, that thereart at lea~t a thousand throughout this Province, possibly that might well be a conservative estimate• hut I would maintain that there are at least one thousand persons who are unfortunately receiving short-term assistance and suffering in one way and another, because of the fact that they are unable to get work, the kind of work that they might be able to do or may be able to do for a short period of time, But certainly they are not employable on the long-term basis. They aze not employable,Mr.

Chairman. when it comes to the average job, when and if that job becomes available. And so I maintain 1 Sir. that they should be taken out of the labour forces, should not be considered as part of labour force. ln this way,sometimes when we hear of figures of the unemployed quoted,we know or anyone who knows 6417

lb . June 8 1970 Tape 1156 page 4. anything about the department which we are now discussing. We know that there is a group of people in those figures that indeed if there were jobs available to them tomorrow they could not take them. There is something,Mr. Chairman~to be said for (as I have said) increasin 2 ,if possible,the amount of money per month that is given to welfare recipients. And yet we find,as my colleague pointed out,some people who. are employed on a full-time basis are earning less.

Well Sir, as the saying goes, "you cannot have your loaf and eat it too." And it would not be for "me to suggest that we reduce welfare rates to bring it in line with someone who is making $2400 or $2600 a year while they are employed. This is not the answer,Mr. Chairman, the answer is to increase the money that is paid for that position that that person is holding. Sir, with regards to short-term assistance,in terms of deductions, terms the of orders being cut and cheques being cut,as it would be/case right now, in some areas, Sir, I have always maintained that this was wrong.

And I realize that there are many arguments against continuing a person in receipt of assistance while he is working, or while he has earned some money. Mr. Chairman I think we have to look at the long range effect. And if the minister wishes to investigate this I feel sure that he can come back to the House and tell me that I am correct. I recall making reports myself. I am quite sure that I was not the only one and I hau'a fair concensu~ of opinion of welfare workers in the Province at that time.

And by and large a majority of workers in the field felt as I did, that this money that we spend in short-term assistance should be used as a motivator to get people employed,to maintain their initiative not to stiffle it or kill it but to maintain it and,in fact,help them get back and become self-supporting. Sir,when we cut a welfare order or cheque because someone has gone out and earned some money, while we do not mean to do it,we are in fact saying to that person;as long as you continue to do this you are.going to get less from us. 6418

June 8 1970 Tape 1156 page 5. We are in fact saying to that person Mr. Chairman, we have little appreciation for the effort that you have made last month, in going out and trying and making an effort to supplement whatever income we are providing you. Mr. Chairman I would suggest we look very very closely at this and if there is,as I believe there is,some way in which we can get over the hurdle,even if it is for a temporary period,to see how that hous~holder gets along, see how he gets on, and that is to continue assisting to look into his over.-al _l circumstances.

For example, a person who have been in receipt of assistance for four or five or six months, auring that time,Mr. Chairman, if that householder has not earned some money or extra money,there are things that he needs, which~ has been unable to get from his welfare cheque. I think our people in the field should be encouraged to look closely into the overall circumstances of this family • .

I am sure that if they did,Sir, they would find many areas in which this extra money that has been earned could be spent without reducing the amount of the welfare orders , for as long as we cut the order of a person because he has gone and earned some part-time money or indeed if he has gotten himself a job which is permanent.

I know of some cases where a person,having just been employed, having to wait two weeks for a salary, only to find that the most difficult time that he has had from the time he was laid off in his previous job probably for the rest of the time while he is employed,was that one month, that first month when he returned to work. The welfare department could not assist him because he was employed. ~ecause he had money coming to him. He might have slipped back, he might have built up some debts with the merchant or with the grocer he was dealing with, and the grocer would not advance him credit.

So here is a man who has taken the initiative to get back become employed again, who have tried very hard to find himself a job finally succeeded and what do we do with hi~. We create a situation which is unbearable. He is employed, he has got money coming to him, 6419

June 8 1970 Tape 1156 page b, and yet no one will help him. Mr. Chairman,this can only be.considered as discouraging a recipient from making a worthwhile attempt to become employed again. I think from any aspect you look at short-term assistance you have to always come back to the one simple word that we have used here so often, the word which is now very much part of this department and that is rehabilitation. There are many ways,Mr. Chairman, we can rehabilitate people. Sometimes we can look at it in the point of view of someone who has a handicap. But people need to be rehabilitated Mr.

Chairman, in this department just as much as they do from a health point of view. I think Sir, that the more emphasis taat we place on helping people along those lines the more benefit that will come to both the department and the people who are reciPients, our money that we are spending. ~he more return we will get for Mr. Chairman,while I am on my feet I might just comment briefly on Churchill Falls. I know that I will have an opportunity to debate ~t further under another department, but I would just like to briefly comment.

I would say that,Sir, I have to continue to support the employment practise of Churchill Falls. I have to continue to support the manner in which the people are employed, 6420

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1157 Page 1 Mr. Hickey. We hear a lot of criticism of Canada Manpower, and I do not think, sir, that we are ever going to reach a situation where we are not going to have problems, where we are not going to have complaints. I feel sure that the majority of complaints emanating from the site are unfounded, With regard to the figures as quotated by the bon. Premier, the number, 936 is certainly high. It is natural that all of us wonder if we could not have gotten some of those jobs for Newfoundlanders.

The question was raised of the Department of Welfare - the department seems to be getting more involved in terms of possibly getting some recipients at the site. First of all, sir, I would say to anyone who has been to the site and who has been taken on tour of that site, realizes possibly why we have a number of manual workers from outside the Province. I know of one particular case or one particular instance where teft carpenters went to Churchill Falls - were hired as carpenters by Canada Manpower. The system of hiring this type of carpenter now has changed and for good reasons. Mr.

Chairman, when they went to the site, only two of the ten stayed there. Mr. Chairman, I feel I still am on the point, We are talking about,. MR. MURPHY: We are discussing what the Premier said fifteen minutes ago. MR. HICKEY: I am not even dis~ussfng what the Premier was talking about. What I am discussing is the possibility of getting some welfare recipients to Churchill Falls. What I am saying is, in as much as it is desirable, we are having a difficult time to keep people at Churchill who have been employed constantly,much less some unfortunate people who have been unemployed for so long.

What I was saying, Mr. Chairman, was this; that when we advertise for carpenters or when we see an advertisement when for carpenters some of those people go to the site an~they find that they have to work 300 feet in the air, they sure change their minds. If they do not change their mind, the employer changes his mind two days after, and 6421

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1157 Page 2 Mr. Hickey. two days after, they are sent home. So, sir, while the figure might be a bit high, I think that while it is necessary to continue to watch this figure, I believe we are not as bad of,so far as that project is concerned, as we are led to believe. Mr. Cha~rman, I have some other comments to make, but I think I will make them on the next item with regards to cash allowances. I would like the minister too,when he rises again or possibly after I take my seat, if he would tell me if the system of ceiling is still in effect in the department - the system of ceiling.

In other words, a person applying for assistance must be within a certain ceiling of income and if he goes over that, he is not eligihle. Is this still in effect? Mr. Chairman, here is an area where we can possibly help to alleviate the situation which we have discussed in so far as the reducing of welfare orders are concerned. If we were to increase •• MR. MURPHY: Such a guaranteed income? MR. RICKEY: Yes. If we were to increase that ceiling. even if we were to increase it gradually, even if we were to increase it temporarily, say for three months after a person shows some initiative to become employed.

If we were to increase that ceiling for a three month period to give that man a chance to get back on his feet, a chance to clear up some of his bills, Mr. Chairman, I do not think that we would lose anything,by whatever money we would expend, because I think it would be forthcoming. I think we would instill in that individual a greater desire to remain off welfare.

But as I have said earlier, sir, as long as we continue - no matter for what good reason there might be, as long as we continue to strike a blow at the person who is oo welfare the moment that he finds himself a job, we are only going to discourage him to go back on welfare again, because he is going to feel, he has .to feel that he has no friends. He has to feel that the Department of Welfare could not 6422

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1157 ., Page 3 Mr. Hickey. care less about him. So, I would suggest that the minister take this into account and attempt to come up with some manner tn which, some policy in which a person would be given one, two, three months after he becomes employed or after he has indicated that he is getting back to become employed. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I can only repeat what I have said earlier --~ · - that we are deeply conscious of the needs of the men, women and children dependent on assistance from my department to keep body and soul together.

Today 's air-borne consumer price index, probably, hits them harder than anyone else, because they begin with rates that are already minimal and you know, Mr. Chairman, what has happened to the ~onumer dollar since these rates were set. Now the hon. ~ember probably has a point regarding people - you see, you are either employable or you are unemployable under the present system. There is no grey area. Now maybe, Mr. Chairman, what we~should do in the future is take a good, hard look at creating a burnt-out pension. I think this is probably what the bon. member is referripg to.

They have it in other provinces and down in certain states in the United States and certainly our social assistance program is continuously undergoing review and this is one of the things that I would be very happy to take a look at, because I do think we need this grey area for people who.are burnt out • . People, for instance, in their mid sixties, unskilled, uneducated, cannot find jobs, even if they are registered with Manpower, and I might say Mr. Chairman that this is one thing we insist on for those clients who come to us for short-term assistance.

They have to register with Canada Manpower in order to qualify for short-term assistance. Now to answer a question raised ~y the member for St. John's West, the increase in staff did allow us to provide better service. We can now specialize in long-term assistance,in short-term assistance and in • w• · ~ • • • ' child welfare, adoptions, and I might say one field, Mr. Chairman, that we have neglected,in my opinbn, in the past is the field of probation. 6423

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1157 Page 4 Mr. Neary. One of the major recommendations of the Atlantic Provinces' Conference on Corrections, which was held here a few weeks ago and which was endorsed by the John Howard Society, had to do with the extension of probationary services both for adults and juveniles. Experience everywhere, you see, Mr. Chairman has proven that a trained probation officer is much more effective than imprisonment in the rehabilitation of those who come into contact with the law, Now in the past, sir, our probation services had been restricted to the St. John's area.

Over the past year, we have introduced probationary services in Corner Brook and just within the past week, Mr. Chairman, I have been able to reassign members of our present staff to pro~ion duties in Gander to look after Central Newfoundland and Grand Bank for the Burin Peninsula. This is being done, Mr. Chairman. Treasury Board will be happy to know this. This is being done within our present budget by making be·tter use of our professionally qualified staff and so, Mr.

Chairman, within the framework now established by this expansion. the department will be able to extends its probationary services in depth as well as far better coverage of the various parts of the Province. This is the type of thing that we are tTYing to do now, Mr. Chairman. We are trying to specialize and so the bon. member for St. John's West is quite correct. This has been a tremendous advantage. to us. We are getting better trained people and we are trying to get the best value we can for our welfare dollar. MR • .wELLS: Mr. Chairman, before we vote on this.

I wonder if the minister would tell us whether or not there are any negotiations going on with the Government of Canada with a view to, perhaps, solving many of the difficulties that we have with short-term assistance so­ called, able-bodied assistance1 With the long-term assistance, there is nothing you can do. These people are generally unemployable - not capable for one reason or another of work. But with the short-term assistance, as I understand it, these are people who are capable and able to work,but 6424

June 8th., 1970 Mr. Wells. Tape no 1157 Page 5 for whom no work is available for a variety of reasons. Some of them attributable to them personally because of lack of skills and so on. What negotiations, if any, or are there any negotiations going on with the Government of Canada with a view to using these funds to actually employ people between the frovincial and Municipal Governments throughout the Province, to actually employ them and pay them more - not just a living allowance? If they do actually work, pay them nothing less than the minimum wage.

You cannot very well pay them anything less, if they are actually working. But it seems to me that many of the ills - a number of members who spoke this morning describe that it could well be cured. There is a great deal of work to be done in all of the municipalities throughout the Province, for example: A lot of work that the councils would like to do goes undone because they cannot afford to do it; yet between us all and all of us 1 as part of Canada, we contribute to the maintenance of these families whose bead of the household cannot find work. Surely, Mr.

Chairman, it seems that the most sensible thing to do is to use this money that would otherwise be paid out in welfare and perhaps put so~more with · it so that you do pay a salary and not just a subsistence allowance. It would be better spent, and we would on avoid many of these ills that people who are.short-term assistance and can find a little bit of work here and a little bit of work there, not doing it . because they lose their allowances or they have it cut back and so on. It is a very difficult thing to administer.

I realize there is no ready solution and I realize that what I am now suggesting may well have pitfalls as well. It is not a perfect system,. For instance how do you administer it in a remote area where there is no local administration, no local government or no· Provincial Government direct admlni!'ltratlonl It could be much more simply nclminintered if we had .s ,;,nmty l.>&,.ctkduwn ln adn•Lnt~rr<lt 1~•11 in th<~ I'IJ:ovince~ than it could at the moment. But, at least, a step CIJ•. ld be Jllade in this direction that where 64~5

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1157 Page 6 Mr. Wells. possible this be done. I realize that it cannot be done throughout the whole of the Province, but where possible this could be done. I also understand that the Government of Canada do not look with great favour upon such propos~ls, but I think the time has come, not just in this Province, but I think they encounter the same difficulties throughout the rest of Canada~where there may well be enough pressure brought to bear on them that they may participate in this kind of a scheme. An awful lot of people are annoyed at so-called welfare and people on welfare.

They get annoyed at people who receive social assistance, generally, because af the few who do abuse it. There are a number who do abuse it, but I would like to think that that is a small proportion of the overall. I do not know. Nevertheless, it has ereated an opinion throughout the Province that is generally held - this is a system that is widely open to abuse and is being widely abused and could be better administered,if some such scheme a8 this were entered upon.

Now I do not know what the position of the Goverument of Canada is today, but I know,some time ago they just would not talk about it, as I understood their position to have been. I would like the minister to advise the committee whatnegotiations , if any, are going on or what is proposed to try and develop something along these lines. I believe in the long run, it is·going to be in the best interest of our people. There is one thins short-term assistance does do and this is almost unavoidable. I find it difficult to blame the individuals.

Although I can see how they can be blamed, when a man is being maintained on and his family is being maintained~what to him is a satisfactory level. It may not be aatiafactory by general standards but what to him is probably a satiafactory level' he is inclined to lose his initiative and avoid working, if it is possible to do so.

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1157 Page 7 Mr. Wells. The destruction of a man's initiative is the sad consequence of short-term assistance. This can and does happen, as I am sure the minister is aware. It does happen. If some kind of a program such as this could be worked out with the Government of Canada, I think it may solve many of the ills, although undoubtedly it will not solve them all. Perhaps the minister could tell us what steps, if any, are being taken? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the 'hon. member has a very good point.

I think our position is quite clear as outlined in a brief presented by my department recently to the Senate Committee Hearings on Poverty. We do agree, Mr. Chairman, that there shald be a list of special projects whereby people can have a choice. They can work if they want to - not for welfare, but they would work for good wages, for union wages. I think the examples that I gave in the brief were, for instance, landscaping the Trans-Canada Highway, cleaning up our beaches and so on, Mr. Chairman. So far the Government of Canada has resisted this idea •• _MR.

WELLS: That was the winter works - they started it with the Winter Works Program. It phased out. MR. NEARY: They have resisted so far allowing the funds of the Canada Assistance Plan to be used for special work projects and this is what we are after you see. So •• MR. WELLS: Why does there have to be a cqoice where he can either take the welfare or this? Because suppose he says, I do not want to work. Be will go eack and get welfarer MR. NEARY: Well, you know, it is a free country. MR. WELLS: Yes, of course •• , MR. NEARY: But, of course,by working •• MR. WELLS: It is not that free, KR.

NEARY: But, of course, by working his standard of living would be much better than by his staying on social assistance. _MR. WELLS: That is not going to solve the problem of the hangers-on who might be otherwise able to work, 64~7

June 8th,, 1970 Tape n o 1157 · Page 8 MR. NEARY: Well there is such a thing as civil liberties, Mr. Chairman. MR. WELLS: Fine. You cannot compel a man to work b~t ••• _MR. NEARY: In the meantime, the principle that the bon. member has outlined is sound, There is no question about that. The Premier put this proposition to the Government of Canada several years ago. It is not a new idea, Mr.

Chairman, and it was endorsed recently in the brief that I presented to the Senate Committee Hearings on Poverty, and I would be glad to let the hon, member have a copy of the brief, because the very points that he raised are outlined in this brief. They have been made public, and I think it would go a long way to improve the moral of our clients, Mr. Chairman. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Chairman, j~st one question and this has arisen out of my just checking some of the salaries or wages, whatever you'like, paid in the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation, and it is dealing with an earlier point that I brou ·ght up and it is not that we should lower our assistance to the recipients but perhaps to have a long, hard look. I would like for the minister to do this for me.

There is one particular item here, seventy-five institutional officers, Grade VI and it is broken down: fourteen utility men, two watchmen, fc~r food supervisors, two practical nurses and fifty-three nursing assistants - t~ained. Now, as I say, how many in these families, I do not know, because we do not have these particulars, but I am basing it on a family of five, which is the average family as stated by the bon. minister and there annual income is $3,387.95 and if they quit their jobs tomorrow and went on welfare, they would receive $3,460. I may be all wrong on this here but,. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, if the hon. member will allow me, that is not quite right, because he is talking about long-term assistance and in order to qualify for long-term assistance, you have to be certified as unfit for work by .a doctor, The short-term rates are much less. 6428

June 8th., 1970 Tape no 1157 Page 9 MR. MURPHY: Yes, but I think basically we can argue this. And as I have said earlier, I am not going to, but yau find short-term assistance in many instances becoming long-term because the fact that he is out of work tomorrow and he gets short-term assistance and he cannot get a job for two, three, four or five months, I presume then, we have to consider him over a period,rather then be temporarily out of work, as being almost permanently. MR. NEARY: No! No! MR.

MURPHY: But anyhow these figures are interesting, if you want to compare them, and I would like to see a breakdown of some of the actuals. The idea is, I think, to try and create a guaranteed income where we bring someone up to what they should be earning for so many in the family. I think the first one who should set the example are the Civil Service itself and the Government. MR. NEARY: I do not think there is any doubt about that, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member is quite right. I think the Government of Canada are working towards the guaranteed annual income or reverse income tax or some other system. JIB..

WELLS: Mr. Chairman, just as a matter of interest. Would the minister tell the committee, when it happened and why it happened that recipients of social assistance are now called clients of his department. You know, what is the significance 6429

June 8th. 1970 Tape 1158 PK - 1 MR. WELLS: and why? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if lawrers resent us calling our people who· come for assistance, "clients "• MR. WELLS: I am just wondering how it relates to welfare? MR. NEARY: I do not know, I cannot explain it, Mr. Chairman, apart from the fact that ~f you go to a doctor or psychiatrist or a lawyer you are a client, so if you come to my department for assistance, you are a client that is all. MR. WELLS: It connotes payment for services. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, one other thing, but I think it is unfortunate that it exists with respect to payment of social assistance - MR. CROSBIE: With respect to the Burin office. MR. HICKMAN: Oh the Burin office, has that not been settled yet? I had forgotten all about the Burin office. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman,it is several weeks ago now, since the bon. the member for Burin raised the matter of the Burin office, and right up to this very moment, I have not received a single complaint from a recipient of social assistance in that area. We still maintain the office in Burin, two days a week, I think it is.

The only thing is, that the two social welfare workers are field staffed, they are two girls, I think. They decided that they wanted to live in Marystown, and that is their prerogative. But we do rotate, not only the girls, but the males in the Marystown office go to Burin in their turn two days a week. And that office will continue.to be maintained, as long as it is necessary, Mr. Chairman. MR. HICKMAN: I was not being critical, , Mr. Chairman, of th~ work that is bein~ done by the welfare officers. I think, that the senior officials find it a bit more difficult and inconvenient to look after the law in the St.

Lawrence area because of distance involved and people who cannot come down that far. But from the point of view of the individual performance on the part of the welfare officers, it is first class. And I would be very happy to bring this to the attention of the committee. I still cannot aubscriho to the vtew that waJtare r.,r.fl>lantlll 11hnul•l have to use a shopping centre in order to avail of the services that are providt-d. 64:JO

June 8th. 1970 Tape 1158 PK - 2 MR. HICKMAN: And if you stand in that shopping centre in Marystown and talk to any recipients, all you have to do is talk to them for a minute, and you can see the source of embarrassement of having to line up outside, while some­ body else is going into Ayre's or Sobey's or some other place buying their grocerie~ or whatever they had . to do. This is not what I had in mind, and I do urge the bon. minister, he says he is going to go down one of these days and have a look, as soon as this House adjourns. MR.

MURPHY: There is liable to be an election then, and he will not be able to get away. MR. HICKMAN: Other than an election, we will welcome him anyway, right in the middle of an election, I would be delighted to see the hon. minister down, and the Town ·Council in Burin will be more than happy to provide adequate facilities for him. But one unfortunate situation that sill prevails, Mr. Chairman, is the comparsion of social assistance that is being paid under the welfare scheme, and that was being paid under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Now there is a difference when you come to large families.

For instance, a widow with thirteen children is much better off under social assistance, the difference is $312.50 per month mazimum under Workmen's Compensation. This is at the time of the Royal Commissions Report, $415 social assistance. Well it is true that a widow , h~s an absolute right, if she so desires, to apply to the welfare officer to be paid the difference. But a lot of widows adopt the attitude,with a great deal of justification, that Workmen's Compensation is not social assistance, it is not welfare. MR. NEARY: It is insurance that their house is paid for. MR.

HICKMAN: That is what it is, it is insurance paid out of a trust fund that was earned by their husbands, and this is where the concept is so different. Social assistance is paid to a widow who has no source of income, whose husband did not qualify for Workmen's Compensation, presumably here husband at the time of his deceased was not employed or alternatively he was enployed in an industry that did not come within the scope of the Workmen's Compensation Act. 64~1

June 8th. 1970 Tape 1158 PK - 3 MR. WELLS: Or, he died of natural causes. MR. HICKMAN: That is what I mean, he died of natural causes. But Workmen's Compensation is in a completely different category; these are monies directly or indirectly that are earned by the workmen,paid by the employer. True he does not deduct from the employee the money to go into this fund, but the employer pays in as part of his terms of employment.

True he does not do it voluntarily, he does it because of legislative process and requirement, monies into a trust fund to ensure that his widow and dependent children will be looked after in the event that he dies of an industrial disease or he ts killed in the course of his employment. And a lot of widows resent the fact, and in fact some widows will not go and ask the welfare officer to be compensated for this difference between what she is receiving from the Workmen's Compensation Board arid what she would get if she were social assistance.

But there is also another benefit that accures to people on social assistance, that according to the Royal Commission, they cannot find proof positive would be provided to the widow under Workmen's Compensation, and that is widows receiving social assistance, receive further additional benefits , (I am quoting now) "including exemption from payment of school fees, books, drugs• hospital fees, includinF transportation to and from hospital, and town council taxes, such as water tax.

Whereas the widows on Compensation receive no such exemption." Mr. Chairman, only today I receive a letter from a widow in St. Lawrence which collaberates that position. I do not want to name her but just to quote from her letter. She says, " let me just give you an example of my expenses for drugs, this is since March 4th. - $54.60. I have had to go to St. John's twice to consult doctors, taxi fares $22.00 each way plus meals and board and lodgings." Now that is the sort of payment, as I understand it, that a widow on social assistance would be entitled to receive. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: Well apparently this is something that was not proven to ~he 6432

JWle· 8th. 1970 Tape 1158 MR. HICK}~: satisfaction of the Royal Commission, because this was read PK- 4 suggested to them, and if you will~particularly 260 of their report, they advise the widow of their rights. And what they found was a great deal of this appears to be within the discretion of the welfare officers, and it is not an entitlement, as of right, and .you have that coupled with the fact that the widow is very justifiably - MR. NEARY: There is no guaranteeing anything. MR.

HICKMAN: The other thing wh~ch I think is very understandable and very commendable, you have the attitude of the widow sayin~~:, "we do not want social assistance. Our husbands earned Workmen's Compensation, it should be of an adequate sum, at least comparable to widows whose husbands were not employable, or died of natural causes at the time." I do not know what the answer is, but obviously,! think, the bon. minister has to admit that their is a difference and the differencemitigatesagainst the widow and dependents of a person who is entitled to Workmen's Compensation. MR. NEARY: No, no, no. MR.

HICKMAN: But it does, the figures speak for themselves. And maybe it is a far more appropriate time to discuss this under the estimates of the Minister of Labour. The difference is there and it is there very forcibly. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to say very briefly that recently we, my field staf~interviewed twenty-two widows in St. La~rence,at their request. some were interviewed in the office, some at home, whatever arrangement they wanted to make and these twenJy-two widows are now in full possession of the .. . facts and they know exactly What t~eir rights are under their social assistance.

I think, this is as far as we can go. If they do not want to take advantage of it, well that is another story. MR. HICKMAN: But you can see why, Mr. Chairman, and I would just like to quote one paragraph, which I know the hon. the minister has read and reread. "Your commissioners feel that it is unjust, humiliating and degrading for widows of deceased workmen,who di"'d aR a result of an occupation:~l diAeaRe 64:l3

June 8th. 1970 Tape 1158 PK - 5 MR. HICKMAN: obliged to seek social assistance in addition to compensation." Now, as I said earlier, probably the estimates of the Department of Labour is a more appropriate place to discuss this. But there is a recommendation that they should receive. a similar amount that is sufficient to enable them, at least, to live on the same bases as they would on social assistance. MR. CHAIRMAN: 03 carry? Shall 01 carry? Carried. Shall 02 carry? Carried. Shall MR. CROSBIE: The minister I do not think explained why this is down, I -see the vote for Disabled Persons Allowances. MR.

NEARY: Oh, yes, Mr. Chairman, a lot of those people have now been transferred to long term assistance. You- see there is no such thing any more as a disability allowance or a widow's pension. It is all long term assistance, with the coming into effect of the Canada Assistance Plan. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 03 carry? Carried. Shall 05 carry? MR. CROSBIE: What is the amount, Mr. Chairman, of a blind person's allowance today, and how much is paid by the Government of Canada? AN HON. MElffiER: Is that long term? MR. CROSBIE: No, it is not long term, this is separate. HR. NEARY: Blind persons allowances, Mr.

Chairman, are up to a maximum of $75.00 a month, paid to needy blind persons who have less than ten per-cent vision as determined by the Blindness Control Division of the Department of National Health and Welfare. Fifty pre-cent of the cost is recoverable. Oh, .pardon me, seventy-five percent of the cost is reimbursed by the Government of Canada. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairma~, in connection with this allowance $75 per month for a blind person~ are persons who have less than ten per-cent of their sight, if they received a blind persons allowance, do they receive lon~ term assistance also, or is that all they receive?

MR. NEARY: A means test is applied, Mr. Chairman, I might say for the information of the committee that there has been a reduction in the number of cases, chiefly, because of the reduction in the age limit for qualification 6434

June 8th. 1970 Tape 1158 PK - 6 MR. NEARY: for the old age pension, and because of the increase in social assistance. They have switched over to social assistance, long term. MR. CROSBIE: Well the only thing I want to point out here, Mr. Chairman, is that I had a call sometime ago from someone who is receiving a blind persons allowance~ wro is complaining how low it was, and I think their complaint is certainly justified. Seventy-five dollars per month is certainly not calculated to keep body and bones together, as an allowance.

And since seventy-five percent of that comes from Ottawa, is there not any chance of increasing the allowance, it would not amount to all that much. In our estimates it is $359,000, and seventy-five percent of that comes back from Ottawa, so it is only costing the Provincial Government $90,000 a year. Would the minister consider making some adjustment to this blind persons allowance during the year? MR. NEARY: Well momentarily, Mr. Chairman, we are waiting for the reaction from the Department of National Health and Welfare on our proposal to change the formula of the Canada Assistance Plan.

If they agree, and this is the only hope that I can hold out for all those on social assistance at the moment, that blind persons allowances will be one of the first that will be considered for an increase. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall OS carry? Carried. Shall 06 carry? Carried. Shall 06 carry? Carried. Shall Ov car~? MR. WELLS: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the minister would advise the committee the when~interfaith home in Corner Brook can expect to be permitted to go ahead, they can go ahead on their own, the proposal , (I do not know, if the committee is aware of it or not) is that all of the churches,with the exception of one or two,have gotten together and created a company called, "The West Coast Interfaith Social Welfare Council", with a view to the construction of a home for the aged, rather than having one church or the other, if you wish, all of the churches with the exception of one or two have gotten together to do this.

They have been working on it for sometime. They are now and have been for sometime 64:)5

June 8th.. 1970 Tape 1158 PK - 7 MR. WELLS: pretty well ready to proceed. But all that is required is assurance from the Government that they will receive, if necessary, the subsidies for the people who are in the home. They cannot very well turn anybody away, and if a person can only afford to pay a $100 a month, well that is .not enough to sustain them. The way it operates presently with the homes here in St. John's is that the Government pays up the difference.

And I do not know,quite frankly, whether it is up to a minimum of $300 or $350 a month, or up to a maximum of that, or it is up to what the individual home needs to sustain them, for them to be able to repay their capital and so on. But whatever it is, this is what they require from the Government, as well as, a guarantee of occupancy, in order for them to borrow from Central Mortgage and Housing and to be assured of having sufficient funds to repay. Now with the respect of guarantee of occupancy, I doubt that is much of a problem there, thinking in the neighbourhood of eighty to one hundred beds.

And there area of service is the entire western half of the Province, so that filling eighty to one hundred units that would be available is not difficult. So I do not think there is any real worry about occupancy. Where the difficulty comes in is the subsidy from the Government to bring up to the economic point the income of the corporation, so they will have sufficient to repay. Now I realize meetings have gone on recently, but there have been meetings and correspondence for some considerable time with the minister,to try and get this. This is the only thing that is now holding this up.

The churches are prepared to go it on their own,otherwise. They are not looking for any cash grants from the Government. They are prepared to put their own money into it,at the outset the differential between what it will cost and to put what they will receive from C.M.H.C. They are prepared"this up immediately themselves, and they require only this guarantee that the Government will pay the subsidy differential. This is all that is necessary to allow this to proceed immediately. It has been held up now for sometime because they are 64:J6

June 8th. 1970 Tape 1158 PK - 8 MR. WELLS: ready to proceed, and they just cannot go without it, they are reluctant to undertake the borrowing of money from C.M.H.C. for this, and find themselves in a position some day where they may be short ten percent or fifteen percent or twenty percent or twenty-five percent of what they need to repay it. These people are representatives of all the churches and even though they feel that the Government will come to their assistance, should that ever occur, they do not want to be placed in that position.

And beside, I understand, this is ·the policy, this is what is being done in the home here in St. John's, and they are serving their people all over the Province in those homes. But there is a great need to have this kind of facility in Western Newfoundland, and it is long overdue, and this is now the only thing holding it up. I would not imagine it would in any way affect the estimates for this year, because by the time they got it built, I cannot really conceive of occupancy prior to next March, April or May. AN RON. MEMBER: A year perhaps. MR.

WELLS: Roughly a year, somewhat short of a year . by the time it is constructed. They are ready now to proceed. I know this personally because I am on the Board of Directors representing one of the churches. And I really do not think this makes any difference. I have been asked to do this work by one of the churches, and I have agreed to do it, and there are several others on the Board of Directors, and I think they have done a very good job putting this thing together, and they are ready now to roll.

I wonder if the minister couldaayif it is safe for them to proceed, so there will not be any further delay, if he could tell the committee, Mr. Chairman. MR. S~ALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, At least representatives from two of the churches came to see me,the Anglican and the United Churches, the representative of the Roman Catholic Church was in retreat, Monsignor Hull, so two of them came and had lunch with me. And I had present with me at the lunch, ~tr. Andrew Crosbie, from whom I had heard of plans he had to erect a number of homes in this Province for the aged. And it seems to me that it 6437

Jtme 8th. 1970 Tape 1158 PK- 9 MR. SMALLWOOD: might be useful, if the Committee from Comer Brook could be brought together by Mr. Crosbie to hear from him his plans . and to see whether or not, it might be practicable and desirable from both points of view. to have some so·rt of a mer.ger or some sort of collaboration between them. 64:)8

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1159 JM - 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: It was not long before it emerged that there is a sort of a gulf between their wishes and their plans with regard to the size of the operation in mind. The Committee are thinking evidently of a relatively small operation of about eighty beds and Mr. Andrew Crosbie is thinking of a much larger operation. Th·ey can, both of them, get the money from Central Mortgage with which to construct whatever is decided to put there and so from the point of view of the capital needed there is no difficulty whatsoever, none at all.

There is this difference of opinion as to the size it ought to be. If there is to be one home for the aged in Western Newfoundland and not more than one then clearly eighty beds will be insufficient, it would be lamentably insufficient. And from that point of view at any rate the concept of Mr. Crosbie would appear to be a more practical one than that of the Committee otherwise there is precious little difference as the capital to build would come in either case from Central Mortgage and then there would be the problem of operation.

If the Committee built it then they would have the problem of managing the operation of it, employing erained personell and exercising a sort of general supervision of that management personnel. If Mr. Crosbie built it he would have exactly the same problem with this difference that he proposes a series of them and might therefore pessibly find it more fesible to set up a good working management arrangement, might. I do not say positively that he would be in a better position to do it than would the Committee, I do not say that he would but it is possible. As a Government we are asked only to do two things.

One to guarantee ninety per-cent to one hundred per~cent occupancy and certainly in an eighty bed institution there would be nothing very much easier than doing that. Second to subsidize the cost per bed so that the institution erected and operated would thereby take in enough revenue to amortize the debt which, of course, they would have to do. One of the problems the Government has to look at is the over-all problem of the Province as a Province. How many old peop~es hnmr.~ cln w" t h lnl1 w• oup,ht to have? Where ought they to be? We have at the moment )p•r•· on the Avalon Pen Insula the mngntficent St.

Patrick's Home for the aged, St. Luk,e's Home of the Anglican Church, Agnes Pratt !lome of the United

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1159 JM - 2 MR. SMAI.LWOOD: Church, all three of these being in the city of St. John's, and the magnificent Pentecostal Home over in Clarkes Beach. Four here on the Avalon Peninsula where perhaps - AN HON. MEMBER: The Hayles Home. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, the Hayles Homes, I forgot it. F~ve. MR. HIC~~: Is the Pentecostal Home a home for the aged and infirmed or just the aged? MR. S?-IALL\vOOD: Yes, it is because . they have nursing service there. It is a magnificent home as I went through it last year once and it is a credit to this Province as they all are indeed.

So with five homes for the aged here in Eastern Newfoundland and that being insufficient by far to meet the need and there being also in Central Newfoundland, not only a need but a desire and not only a desire but a firm wish expressed by one of the larger churches there, perhaps the largest single church in Central Newfoundland, I am not · sure of that, but the need being there and the desire to have it.

Now for Western Newfoundland, the only question that remains really is that of the size of the one proposed by the Ecclesiastical Committee or the Social Services Committee of Corner Brook who wanted eighty beds. As a result of the conversation we had at lunch the other day when they lunched with me I think that perhaps they went back to Corner Brook with two thoughts clear in their minds.

One that there will be no difficulty what­ soever from the Government, none at all, if they went ahead with the eighty bed institution and two that perhaps it might be worth-while their taking another look at the size of the project they have in mind. Perhaps if instead of having one just for Corner Brook and they drew a line from Baie Verte, I think, across the Island Southward to Burgee, I believe, and proposed that their institution would serve that area. It strikes me right off that an institution of eighty beds might nominally serve that area but practically it would probably not do so. Then again, Mr.

Chairman~ the Government have to look at the thing in the round. We have to,whetber we like it or not. we have to remember that although we do not have to share at all in the costs of putting the institution 6440 ..

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1159 JH - 3 HR. SMALLWOOD: there in the first place we do have to share in the cost of its operation after it is there. We are now, I think, I am a little hazy in my mind on what the ultimate decisions were at that luncheon but I have half an idea that 1 said we would appoint a Committee of Cabinet to try to corelate and integrate the whole picture to the Province and I have also a hazy picture in my mind that we are to hear back from them, the Committee in Corner Brook, that they were to go back and confer with their colleagues.

In all events I have heard nothing since then and I frankly do not know what has been going on but I thought the Committee would be interested to hear that part of it at any rate. HR. WELLS: ~~. Chairman, may I say with respect to the last thing the Premier mentioned before I forget it - MR. SMALLWOOD: I left out one by the way on the Avalon Peninsula, Sunset Lodge Salvation Army which makes a total of six homes for the aged on the Avalon Peninsula. MR. WELLS: I can advise the Premier through you, Mr.

Chairman, that as far as the Committee in Corner Brook is concerned they are now waiting to hear from the Government. They do not anticip 'ate - RON. ME~ffiERS: Interruption. MR. WELLS: Now that it has quieted down I can tell the Conunittee, Hr. Chair­ man, and for the Premier's information in particular that that Committee is waiting to hear from the Government. They do not anticipate, they assume that representation has been made and they are now waiting to hear that the Govern- ment has agreed · to guarantee the occupancy and the subsidy.

But with respect to his remarks concerning the size of the home I agree thoroughly that eighty is not sufficient to serve the area that this council is designed to serve. But what the council feels is better is not to build one monstrous home in Corner Brook but to service their whole area by starting out with the one in Corner Brook of in the vicinity of eighty to one hundred beds, somewhere in hetWPPn there or whatever the plans will allow, and then constructing other for example in the 8aie Verte area to take care of that whole aren, one in

June 8th, 1970 MR. WELLS: Tape 1159 JM - 4 the St. Georges, Stephenville Crossing, Stephenville area to take care of that area, one out towards Port aux Basques probably down in the Codroy Valley or in Port aux Basques itself and one in the Bonne Bay area aqd one in St. Anthony. Now this is what the Committee feels would be better for the older people.

Instead of bringing people from Green Island Brook down the North West Coast into Corner Brook when they become old and infirm they would perfe~ I am sure,to be somewhere near within reasonable driving distance of their relatives and friends with whom they have lived all their lives.

So the Committee felt that it would be more desireable, firm decisions have not yet been made on this but they do feel that it would be more desireable for this Social Welfare Council,which represents all of Western Newfoundlan~to think in terms of constructing several homes spread throughout the area rather than one or two major large homes in Corner Brook where people would have to be brought away from their friends and relatives. It is not possible to construct facilities like this in every community but it is certainly possible and practical to do it in confined geographic regions.

For exampl~ the Port au Port Peninsula,- St. Georges Bay area is a confined region and somewhere in that area you could place one of these homes and service the people of the are~ where their friends or relatives could drive within twenty to forty miles.and visit their people that they have in these homes. This is what the Committee feels \.rould be better.

Probably homes of forty to fifty,outside~ The idea as well,with this home in Corner Brook.at the momen~while they are thinking in terms of eighty to one hundred, it is being planned and will be so constructed as to enable ready expansion to a larger size as soon as the need arises. As well the Committee mi~ht right away,for example~take over the old hospital facility at Stephenville Crossing and renovate it and use it temporarily at least until final plans could be made. This is another possibility and there are a number of reasons for that.

I think there were some political undertakings that an old age home would be built in Stephenville Crossing, anyway it is not necessary to go into that. But in the light of the circumstances th~~ there are no facilities outside of the Avalon Peninsula at the moment, no facilities at all, Western 64 ·12

June 8th, 1970 Tape 1159 JM - 5 MR. WELLS: Newfoundland is in dire need of it and this group is prepared to go ahead and do it and they do not require any capital from t~e Government. All they require from the Government is an assurance that the Government will treat these ' people the same as they treat all the other homes here on the Avalon Peninsula. Now that almost goes without saying that surely they are goinp, to do that, can they do any less2 I do not think so. Surely it is entirely safe for this group to go ahead forthwith and start construction of this facility because it is so badly needed.

There is nothing there at the moment. So I would like the Government,as soon as they possibly ca~because the season is wearing on and they have to call tenders, plans are pretty well ready but they have to call tenders and so on to get this work done and that does take time and they have to make their final decisions and they need to know, you know they needed to know yesterday. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, as the Treasury Board ~inisters are quite busy we have set up a meeting and if we ever get the House closed, ~r. Chairman, we - XR. !.YELLS: Do r.-e have to wait until the House closes - MR.

NEARY: Of course because you see, ,Mr. Chairman, there is a continuing expense involved on the Treasury and therefore we have to go and discuss it with Treasury Board. There is no problem with the ninety per-cent occupancy or there is no problem with the capital outlay, so if we ever can get time, Mr. Chairman, to sit down and discuss it with Treasury Board the hon. member will get his answer as quickly as possible. MR. WELLS: I agree that Treasury Board has to do it but what I am saying is; do they have to wait until the House closes before they can meet? MR.

NEARY: You knm.- there an only twenty-four hours in a day . MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, Treasury Board is so far behind, Mr. Chairman, I would move that the Committee rise and report its progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion, Mr. Speaker, returned to the Chai.r. MR. HODDER: The Committee of Supply have considered the matters to them referred and directed me to report some progress and asks leave to sit again. On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit 64 ·13

June Sth, 1970 Tape 1159 JM - 6 again presently. MR. SPEAKER: It being now 1:00 o'clock I do leave the Chair until 3:00 o'clock • .. ,

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 101 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, JUNE 8,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June tlth., 1970 Tape no 1160 Page 1 The House met at 3 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. BON. W. N. ROWE {Minister of CommWlity and Soc:ial Development)' Mr. Speaker, with your Honc·ur's leave, I wish to make a ministerial •tatement and to tablP. a ~oe~t in this hon. P.ouse. I take great pleasure and a considerable amount of personal satisfaction in tabling in this Honourable House a Paper which I have written on behalf of the Government, entitled A Social and Economic Development Program for Newfoundland and labrador in the 19701 s.

It is a preliminary Paper which is to be followed in several months by a more complete and definitive Paper on the same s~bject. The first few pages of this present Paper contain a general

summary of its contents which, I trust, will be found convenient by Members of the House and the general public. This document is intended to show the Government's approach to the development of our Province during the present decade and beyond. The Paper points out that in the environment of continuous change through which our Province and the rest of the world are passing, the difficult task of getting rid of our disparity with the rest of Canada requires a positive and constructive attitude on the part of industry, commerce, labour, and Government alike.

The Paper shows that if our population trend continues favourably we can expect a population of about 600,000 by the end of the 7o•s. Thus, if we are to reduce the unemployment rate and the underemployment rate in our present and expected labour force to the averages ordinarily found across Canada, our development requirement is to create 6,000 new jobs per year over the next ten years. The Paper mentions an earlier develoPment planning effort by .,

-2- the Provincial Government, namely, the FRED Program, which involved the work of more than twenty-one persons over a period of many months, ending in a two volume report which was p