Manitoba Hansard — 4 March 1982 (Sitting 6B, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-6b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 4 March, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): On the proposed resolution by the Honourable Member for The Pas and amendment thereto by the Leader of the Opposition. The floor is open. The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, let me at the outset as others have done, congratulate you on your election as Speaker.

Those who have spoken, or at least many of those who have spoken up to this point, have commented from some personal knowledge they have about your fairness, about the abilities you have shown in chairing committees of this House. My experience, of course, in working with you, Sir, has been much more limited but I have already, I think, some insight into those unique capa bilities which you possess which suit you so well for the esteemed position of Speaker.

I recall, Sir, meeting with you and the Opposition House Leader two weeks ago in an informal session which you were good enough to call and you emphas ized that in your view the rules of procedure were there to protect the Opposition, and I agree, and I intend to follow that advice that you gave us at that time. Let me say in that connection that I very much welcome the opportunity which has been given to me to be the Government House Leader.

In that capacity, Sir, following your advice, I will respect those rules and I will respect the rights of the Opposition, but let me say as well that I will be vigilant, as I'm sure you will be, that no one in this House uses the rules to obstruct the business of the Assembly. My view may not be shared by all, but what has been taking place in the Federal House in Ottawa for the last couple of days is an abomination. The use of technicalities to obstruct the business of the House ought not to be counte nanced.

We are all called here, in a sense constitu tionally, by Her Majesty the Queen to do the public business on behalf of the people and let that be done. Yes, let the rules be followed so that the Opposition may be protected, and as I said I will be vigilant in that regard, but I would hope that they do not become used at any point by anyone on that side or this side as a gimmick, as a device, as an obstruction. The great parliamentarian, Erskine May said and here, if I may quote that, "The chief characteristics attaching to the office of the Speaker are authority and impartiality.

"Confidence," he went on to say, "in the impartiality of the Speaker is an indispensable condition of the successful working of procedure." I must say that in that context I listened with some amazement, when a few days ago the former Speaker of this House, the Honourable Member for Virden chastised the government for something we had not done. He said that we had interfered with the rights of the Assembly, that we had interfered with the office of the Speaker, when no such thing had happened.

I say I was amazed, because in doing so he must have forgot- 136 ten certain shameful episodes in this House when he as Speaker was attacked unmercifully and unfairly for doing his job impartially. I wonder if the Leader of the Opposition, who is not here tonight, remembers that episode as well as he remembers the philosphers of the 19th Century. That kind of behaviour, I promise you, Sir, will never be characteristic of this side of the House. May I congratulate with great sincerity, I was moved as others were by the speeches by the Mover and the Seconder of the Throne Speech Motion.

Both in their persons, and in what they said, we can see as the Member for Thompson has noted that this government is indeed the government of all the peo ple of Manitoba. And we can see, again in their person and in what they said, that we are here as the govern ment of Manitoba, as the majority party of Manitoba, for a very long time to come. It gives me personal pleasure in a very significant way to congratulate the First Minister on his election and on his elevation to the post of First Minister.

We, as many of you know, started law school together; he was in my mind clearly a leader in the best sense then, he is clearly a leader in the best sense now. The First Minister brings to the position of First Minister, an understanding, a compassion and a dedi cation which has already lifted him to the front ranks of First Ministers in Canada. It is for me Sir, an honour to represent the Consti tuency of Fort Rouge in this House and in govern ment. I believe it has been a long time since Fort Rouge has been represented in government.

Although, born in Winnipeg, I was not born in the Constituency of Fort Rouge, however, I have lived here for close to four years and in that time, at least I would like to think so, I have come to know something about the consti tuency and something about its people. Geographically, historically and now I would like to think politically, Fort Rouge is at the very heart of this province. Fort Rouge is where the historic roots of trade and settlement, that is the Red and Assiniboine Rivers meet. These very Legislative Buildings, Sir, are in my constituency. Winnipeg's historic shopping street.

Portage Avenue, from the Mall to the interna tionally known corners of Portage and Main are in my constituency. Winnipeg's most interesting new shop ping district, the Osborne Street Village, is in my con stituency; and two of the most significant areas in the proposed Winnipeg core initiative, the north of Por tage triangle and the East Yards, are in my constituency. And what a mix of people.

At one end, if I may use this as an example of the age spectrum, one-fifth of the population of Fort Rouge is over the age of 65, and that's two times the city average, and I want to say to you and to this House through you that seniors in Fort Rouge, and I met literally thousands of them as I went door to door canvassing in Fort Rouge, do not forget and will never forget as long as they live, and may they live a long time, the Schreyer years when 12,000 units of social housing were built, most of them for seniors, units of social housing which lifted them for the first

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 time out of that degradation by which they were vic timized, the degradation of sub-standard housing. It finally became possible for them to live a more humane and a decent life. I want to say to them that this government will never let them down. So I wel come the extension, Sir, of the Pharmacare Program, which was forecast in the Throne Speech today, which will extend to seniors additional services for hearing aids, for dental services, for eye glasses.

These are the kinds of things - these are the kind of caring programs which senior citizens in this province have come to expect from us and which they have the right to demand of us. On the other end of the age spectrum, Fort Rouge is a constituency which increasingly attracts young people, students and teachers and young workers, and professionals and single parent families; and they voted this government into office in substantial numbers because, Sir, we held out a promise to them.

No, it wasn't that prosperity is around the corner, fairy tales born of Tory election fever kind of promise - no, it was not that. It was the significant opportunity to play a meaningful role in shaping their political and economic future. They were, and they knew it, excluded from the political process; they know that they are now an intregal part of the political process and we're dedicated to that. There is, Mr. Speaker, yet another unigue feature of Fort Rouge. You know, there are altogether about 11.5 thousand dwelling units in my constituency, but less than 500 of these are houses.

Fort Rouge has the highest proportion of tenants, particularly tenants liv ing in apartment buildings, of any constituency in Manitoba and I daresay in Canada. That is why the issue of rent control became and remains the domi nant economic issue for the people of Fort Rouge and I look forward to the introduction which will come very shortly of rent control legislation. Fair it will be, yes; but it will not permit the kind of rent gouging which I heard about and witnessed in effect while I went from door to door. It was heart rendering in many instances.

Now I don't blame the former Minister of Consumer Affairs for believing his own press releases. We often tend to do that type of thing and he was looking at figures that were dated back several months and was caught perhaps unawares by what was happening, but we knew it. We knew it in Fort Rouge and we knew it in St. James. We knew it in many many constituen cies and in Brandon that was what happening is that, as the available housing depleted very rapidly, as the market in that sense and the supply sense shrank, rents were rising very very quickly.

Particularly in Fort Rouge there was a squeeze where the condominium conversion was that on the one hand depleting availa ble housing and at the same time subjecting people to unconscionable rent increases of 34 percent, 40 per cent. Yes, I even saw them, Sir, at 60 percent. That kind of rent gouging we will end in a very few months; indeed, I hope in a very few weeks. Fort Rouge, Sir, is a great and a dynamic constituency and yet, with all of its potential for becoming one of the great urban cen tres of Canada it is a constituency in trouble.

It has been victimized by bad city planning; it has been vic timized as well by the failure of successive provincial governments and I don't hesitate to say that. Let criti- 137 cism fall where criticism is due, either to initiate or to be fully involved in comprehensive schemes of urban renewal, people centred urban renewal. In my view the dead hand of urban decay has reached the point and parts of Fort Rouge, particu larly east of Osborne, where programs of renewal, rehabilitation and revitalization are now a matter of urgency. The Honourable Member for River Heights spoke of the vista, the promise for him.

He spoke very well incidentally of urban development, I appreciated his remarks, but he spoke of high-rise development for the East Yards. Now, I'm not at all sure that is what the people of Fort Rouge need; 1hat is not at all what I think proper urban planning requires for that area. I believe that we must once and for all in our visions of city planning put an end to the high-rise, high traffic, high-density madness which has come close to destroying one part of Fort Rouge and now threat ens the other part of Fort Rouge.

It seems to me that east of Osborne, generally, is a prime area; for exam ple, and I'm only using it as an example of small parks and green spaces, of townhouses, of low rise apart ment blocks built around courtyards so that they become people centered, and that the CNR east yards which is contiguous to that area can become, for example, a combination of an intermodal transporta tion center and yet, surrounding it, parks and muse ums, cultural centers and recreational facilities.

These ought to be developed in preference to big monu ments for big business and as I see it, this kind of humanistic rather than profit centered development is the kind of development we should be looking for in the area north of Portage as well. The Core Area Initiative Program, I think, is just a beginning. It should not be seen, as I'm afraid there is a tendency to see it, as some sort of an urban panacea. It's not that.

It has the potential to be the starting point for a new urban development, but great care must be taken not to see it in isolation from the long range development of Winnipeg, the capital city of this province. Mr. Speaker, I'm proud to be a member of the Legis lature, proud to be the MLA for Fort Rouge, but I'm proud as well to be the Attorney-General for the Prov ince of Manitoba and like others of those newly elected I have been frequently, perhaps some would think too frequently, interviewed by the press.

One of the stock questions has been, what is your aim as Attorney-General and I would like to speak a little bit about that, but in so doing let me stress that these are not merely personal goals as they have been inaccu rately described. You know, sort of, what is your per sonal shopping list. These goals, of which I intend to speak, I share with other members of the Executive Council, with our Caucus and what a wonderful Cau cus it is, and indeed, I would like to think, with the majority - the vast majority - of the people of Manitoba.

The Leader of the Opposition has been good I recently enough to refer to a speech which made to the Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties and some of the remarks which I am about to make were made then and I make no apologies for repeating myself to that extent. If I could describe my principal goal, and I repeat,

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 the principle goal of our Government, in a phrase it would be increased access to justice. That is, to improve the access which the ordinary person has to justice in all of its dimensions and I want to describe that in two ways. One has to do with legal justice, the other has to do with the broader concept of social justice. And while the two are clearly interdependent, they can be discussed separately, and I propose to do so although briefly. Mr.

Speaker, human rights, civil liberties, economic rights; such for example as those economic rights which will be enacted in our rent control legislation. All of these may well be meaningless, just so much paper, if those who need them do not know of their existence. A right is not a right if you don't know about it, cannot obtain vital government information upon which to found a claim, and do not have access to quality legal services in order to prosecute a claim, should they, in fact, have one. Let me deal briefly with each one of these compo nents of legal justice.

First of all, with respect to the need to know. I am committed, this government is committed, to freedom of information legislation. As the Throne Speech notes, steps will be taken to develop a freedom of information policy, and it is my hope that this policy when developed will lead to legis lation before the end of the year.

In this connection I would like to reiterate what I have said previously; namely, that such legislation, if it is to be effective, must be relatively simple, relatively unencumbered, with a thousand and one exceptions, which I'm afraid might make the federal legislation a maze, an ineffec tive maze. I don't think that's the kind of freedom of information legislation we want, something which in a sense is a trap for the unwary, a place into which you enter and never escape. Further, with respect to the need to know - and that's a very basic need, let me repeat it.

Without this kind of information, the ordinary citizen is really help less in face of government bureaucracy, helpless in terms of prosecuting claims. In this regard, let me say that there is, in my view, a serious problem in com municating information about rights, about programs, about social services to the people who need the most. Government has hitherto relied, in my view, far too heavily on the written word, the sophisticated ad, the glossy brochure, all which are useful substantially to those who in effect need these programs the least.

With the assistance of my colleague, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, I'm interested in developing the concept of street-level, store-front information centres designed to provide oral informa tion about such programs, both in English and where the predominant language of an area dictates other wise, in the language of that area.

This becomes, I think, a very important concept, and it's not dissimilar, let me say, to what are called Citizens' Advice Bureaus in England, and I have some direct experience with that phenomenon and these were, may I say, started during the Second World War when the maze of government regulations, which suddenly had to be developed in order to accommodate rationing and blackouts and so on, left many many citizens unsure of what they were to do, where they were to go and so there developed this concept utilizing, let me say, mostly volunteers and today there is a network of 138 more than 700 such bureaus in England and they fulfil I an immensely important service of the kind I have talked about.

I would like to see us make at least a start on that concept. With respect to legal services, as many members of this House well know, this is a special interest of mine. I not only served for six years as the first person to chair the Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba but, I also, for the Federal Government did an evaluation of community legal centres in other parts of Canada and I think I know a little bit about the field. I take some pride in the fact that in its basic structure Legal Aid Manitoba still remains one of the best systems, not only in Canada but I would like to think in the world.

However, and to a considerable extent due to the restraint of the last four years, there are still vast pools of unmet legal needs. The program itself, in terms of its coverage, is inadequate and it is limiting in its financial eligibility criteria.

I, as well, would very much like to see Legal Aid staff lawyers much more involved in poverty law, and during the course of this Session, as the Throne Speech notes, this government will be proposing an amendment to The Legal Aid Services Society Act which will strengthen the right of the Board of Legal Aid to grant certificates to groups servicing poverty law areas, because it's that kind of advocacy, public interest advocacy, advocacy on part of the disadvan taged with respect to the places where they live, with respect to expropriations which adversely affect them and in which they've had no say, with respect to utility rates which may hit them and which ordinarily they have no voice in.

It is that kind of public interest advo cacy - even if it hurts government - which they are entitled to and government must provide some of the means to allow them to do so. Mr. Speaker, in my view, fundamental to any mean ingful concept of legal justice are the complementary questions of human rights as protected to some extent in our Manitoba Human Rights Act and those fundamental rights and freedoms soon to be constitu tionally entrenched in the Charter of Rights.

With respect to The Human Rights Act, our provin cial Human Rights Act, I have asked the new Human Rights Commission to make recommendations lead ing to a substantial revision of the Act. The Act, I grant you, has served Manitoba reasona bly well, but the passage of time has revealed some areas of weakness. In looking at this legislation the Commission will no doubt want to consider, I hope it will consider, the recommendations of the Rothstein Report on compulsory retirement and that indeed is something which my own department will be examin ing over the next few months.

Let me just say with respect to that, that no matter what might be the outcome of such reviews the approach that has to be developed must be one of a flexible retirement policy; one in which people can retire in dignity, both early as well as late. Experience shows that when you develop those kinds of policies, when you develop pension legislation which makes that possible, then the average age of retirement remains very close to its present age of 65.

I doubt very much whether the serious social impact of the remo val of compulsory age retirement will be as is sup posed by some people who quite legitimately are con-

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 cerned about the problem. In my address. Sir, to the Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties about which I spoke, speaking of the Charter of Rights I stated that as a government we propose to make it a living letter in the Province of Manitoba. Officials in my department have already organized seminars for Crown Attorneys, are now organizing seminars for police officers. police con stables, line policemen and policewomen to enable them to become familiar with some of the undoubted complexities of the Charter.

Let me say, I grant you, that it is a document with a great many complexities; it will take years to be smoothed out in the judicial pro cess, in the political process, that has to be recognized. There are many other, and in some instances major, implementation questions which face the govern ment. It will be necessary over time, for example, to examine most Manitoba statutes with respect to pos sible conflicts between those statutes and the provi sions of the Charter.

It is not at all unlikely, and we will have to face up to that, that some parts of our legisla tion will have to be changed, will have to be amended to make them conform to the mandates of the Charter. Here I would like to take up a point made by the Leader of the Opposition in one of his kindly little lectures. Remember he lectured the Member for Rupertsland and he lectured the Member for The Pas; he lectured the First Minister; he lectured the Minister of Education; he lectured myself.

I'm thinking of pub lishing them in little series called "Lyon's Little Lec7 tures." I'm willing to give him the copyright if I can get the movie rights. I'm thinking of titles for the movie rights, "Reds, " for example, might be one title, "Crest for Fire, " "Shock Treatment, " "The Lyon Roars, " but having said that, I must say that I appreciated his advice to me.

The Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition chastised me, in one of his Lyon's little lectures to me, for going around the province as he put it, actually it was one speech ... in stating that it is my hope that the Government of Manitoba will not invoke the so-called notwithstanding clause. The clause, he went on to say, and here I quote. He said, "It was for a purpose, " and then he said, "it acts, " that is the not withstanding clause, "as a Damocles sword against the judiciary.

" It seems to me, Sir, that if Canadian history has taught us anything in this area, it is that the constitu tional protection which is needed is not against the judiciary but against governm ents. For example, it was legislation. in my view Draconian Legislation, which was used to break the 1919 Strike in Manitoba - a shameful episode in the history of this province. There was the invocation by the Federal Govern ment in 1970 of The War Measures Act, and not

an act of the judiciary, which stands as one of the greatest assaults on civil liberties in the post Second World War era. It was

an act of government and not of the judiciary which deprived Japanese Canadians of their liberty and of their property without due process and without even the pretense of natural justice. The rule of law, as I see it, means that there must be a meaningful check and balance against the exercise of naked power by government. I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said that no man's life, liberty or property is safe when the Legisla- 139 ture is in Session, no doubt thinking of 1977 to 1981.

Now, I realize, of course, that as suggested by the Leader of the Opposition, there is a difficulty, and he was right to point it out, in making a blanket commit ment not to envoke the notwithstanding clause. And yet, I must at least in all concience, raise the question:- can it really be an entrenched Charter if there can be an end run around the main principles of the Charter, simply by

an act of the then majority of a Legislature or a Federal House? Let me examine that question a bit farther.

Section 2 of the Charter sets out what are called fundamental freedo ms. Sections 7 - 14, set out what are called legal rights.

Section 15 sets out equality rights. These are the sections which are subject to the notwithstanding clause. Now let me take one example; let me sketch out a little scenerio. Suppose that in a particular case, the Supreme Court of Canada, the court of last resort in the legal sense. finds that a

section of a provincial act violates the guarantee of freedom of association in

Section 2(

d) of the Charter. Now let us suppose that has happened. Would we really want this or any government to be able to reintroduce the same law, the one that was found to be in violation of the guaran tee of freedom of association and, in effect say, not withstanding that it is found to be - this law - in violation of the fundamental guarantee of freedom of association, we are going to pass it anyway? Do we want that? I raise that as a question we'll all have to consider in our hearts and in our conscience and in our minds. The Chart of Rights, Mr.

Speaker, in my view is designed to protect the citizens against government, and it seems to me you cannot do that if you give government the axe to chop down the barriers. Consider the situation now, because it said we have some great departure here. Consider the situation, when the Supreme Court of Canada in 1979 found that

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act, had constitutional significance with respect to the use of the French language. Would we have been right, given the tre mendous problems that creates, to come back and re-enact and say notwithstanding what the Supreme Court of Canada has said constitutionally, we're going to ignore it, we're going to do an end run around?

And so, too, with the division of powers; when the Supreme Court of Canada now says because of a constitutional instrument, The BNA Act, that the Prov ince of Manitoba cannot tax the sale of booze in Air Canada planes as they pass from border-to-border -would we really think in a society which thinks that it lives under the rule of consitutional law, that we could then come back and say, notwithstanding what the Supreme Court of Canada says, we are going to do it anyway? That would not be the rule of law; that would be, in my view, constitutional anarchy.

"Well, " says the Leader of the Opposition, "the notion of an entrenched Charter of Rights is not our syste m, it's y syste m. " And he says, ''Thank God we prevented not part of our parliamentarit from being foisted on this country by one man. " Now that's dou ble paranoia; paranoia about the Prime Minister and paranoia about the constitutional system in the Uni ted States. Both seem to haunt him. Now I think I can understand his problem with the

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 Prime Minister. That kind of paranoia perhaps he is not the only one to enjoy. But the constitutional sys tem in the United States, Sir, derives in many of its particulars from British constitutional practice. For example, the direct ancestor of the American Fourth Amendment guaranteeing the citizen against unreas onable search and seizure, a provision which is now embedded in the Charter - that is traceable directly back to a classic constitutional case in England in 1765, the statement of Lord Camden.

And although it's a little perhaps poetic, in terms of the way in which we use language now, let me just quote in part from a parallel judgment. 'The poorest man," said one of the British law earls of that time, "The poorest man, may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail, its roof may shake, the wind may blow through it, the storm may enter, the rain may enter, but the King of England cannot enter, all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement." That's our constitutional heritage.

What we're doing in the Charter is not some alien republican instrument that is going to shake the very pillars of our civiliza tion. It apparently is a long time since the Leader of the Opposition was in law school. Mr. Speaker, earlier in these remarks, I spoke about the concept of access to justice as being a concept which one might approach in two ways. And let me just say a few words about social justice, having spoken about legal justice.

In my view, it would be both vain and misleading to suggest that the task of enhancing human dignity, the task of achieving jus tice in its fullest sense, can be addressed primarily or even that significantly by law reform alone.

Laws such as The Human Rights Act and even constitutional provisions, can never by themselves cope with the monumental indignity of unemployment, of shock ingly bad housing, of economic deprivation caused by soaring interest rates, caused by inflation, caused by excess profits; in short, all of the systemic problems of a society in crisis, all of the problems which call for short-term measures and long-term soloutions.

Section 15 of the Charter, for example, starts out by stating that each individual is equal before the law invoking the memory of Anatole France's famous say ing, "The law in all its majesty forbids both the rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges," so while I will do everything that I can with the help of my colleagues, to make the administration of law less the patrimony of the rich and more the inheritance of the poor, I will at the same time together with them, together I hope, from time-to-time with the Members of the Opposi tion, do all we can to redress the economic imbalance which is at bottom, the most pervasive enemy of jus tice, the most pervasive enemy of human rights.

The Member for Sturgeon Creek - and I am glad to see he's in the House this evening - chastises us for having -(Interjection)- well, he's here in part - for having a vision. Yes, we have a vision, and it's a vision which can never be shared by some of the honourable members opposite, not because they are persons who in their hearts don't have some feelings for social justice, I don't say that. But because, ideologically, they are attached to economic ideas which are rooted in· the 18th Century, never mind the 19th Century.

These are ideas which, though they may have served their purpose at that time when the historic 140 goal of industrial capitalism was the accumulation of capital at any cost, can no longer by justified in any way, morally, economically or politically. The only vision they have, some of them, is the tunnel vision of Reaganomics. The only interest some of them seem to have is the self-interest expressed earlier today by the Honourable Member for Pembina, when he proudly described the inborn desire, as he saw it, of people to look after themselves. I take a different view of human nature.

Finally, on a personal note, let me say some thing to the Honourable Member for Lakeside, wher ever he may be, and you will remember, Sir, with that charming mock earnestness of his, he called upon me to explain my personal Road to Damascus, as he termed it, suggesting that there had been some kind of a conversion. I'm sorry to disappoint him and perhaps frighten some members opposite, there has been no conversion. You see, Mr.

Speaker, what animated my parents, and I think in a way inspired me as I grew up in the hurly-burly of the politically-inspired north end of Winnipeg, was not, as is commonly supposed, some narrow partisan view which can be neatly labelled and therefore, once neatly labelled, neatly dismissed.

It was in fact, I like to think, a much broader vision, a vision which for me is expressed very mov ingly in the opening words of an old British working class song, words which as it happens are and remain as the epitaph on my parents' tombstone and these are the words: "For they had a glowing dream of how fair this world will seem when each man can live his life secure and free." And that is the vision they gave me, that is the vision which remains, and I say to you, honourable members, I say to the Member for Lake side, in terms of fundamentals like that I have not changed, nor I fervently hope will I ever change.

Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, appre ciate the opportunity to join in the debate on the Throne Speech of the First Session of the Thirty Second Legislature of Manitoba. I first want to con gratulate you, as have many, if not all, the legislators in this Assembly, to you and your appointment as the Speaker of this Chamber. I'm sure, Sir, that the Premi er's choice to fill the position was a good one. I am sure, Mr.

Speaker, you will find at times your position to be very frustrating and I'm sure you will be fair in your rulings to both sides of this House. I congratulate the First Minister of the province. I sincerely hope that he and his party governs this prov ince as we expect him to. He has stated to the press that he predicts a short Session. As I understand, Mr. Speaker, it is often the Opposition who makes that decision as to when the Session ends. We, on this side of the House, do intend to be good critics to see that the government does provide good, sound policy. Mr.

Speaker, I want to congratulate the Mover and the Seconder, the Members from The Pas and Bur rows, respectively, for the excellent manner in which they spoke. Each speaker spoke in support of his own constituency. We all believe we represent the most important constituency in the Province of Manitoba. If we didn't, Mr. Speaker, we wouldn't be where we are

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 today. It is always a pleasure to listen to the papers given by members of this House, to hear their views on issues pertaining to their own constituencies. I often think and have thought many times of listening to one of the first speeches that the Honourable Member from Lakeside gave some three or four years ago. That was when he, in his colourful manner, went out and he was plucking the chickens off the main floor of this Chamber. He has a knack of holding your attention, a knack that I would like to have.

However, we're not all public speakers to the extent that member is and also the Member for Roblin-Russell, who, in my opinion, can demand the attention of any audience that he would be speaking to and, of course, my friend from Emerson. He's not in the House now but I understand in conversation to one of his colleagues his colleague is quite offended to think that he didn't mention his piece of property down in Menisino where he appar ently does have the blueberry patch, I think it is, and he likes to speak well of that and I don't blame him for one minute. However, Mr.

Speaker, boundary changes that were put into effect prior to November 17th did, in some instances, result in a change of representations to this House, however, we understand that it is part of the game of politics. Mr. Speaker, I was disappointed to lose the residents of MacGregor and the surrounding areas. That part of my old constituency was good to me and I believe that I served them well, but I did inherit a very good area north and east of Portage la Prairie that takes in Poplar Point, High Bluff, St. Ambrose, Oakland, the Delta area and MacDonald and Longburn. All of these areas, Mr.

Speaker, are good agricultural areas. So, Mr. Speaker, I end up with a nice tidy package, tidy constituency, an area that is served by the City of Portage la Prairie and the R.N. of Portage la Prairie. In the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, the First Minis ter stated that his government was to pursue the eco nomic revitalization of rural Manitoba. His plans to upgrade the main streets of rural Manitoba's towns, villages and local businesses, a program I wish to compliment him on. The main streets of many of our rural areas do require to be upgraded. Portage la Prairie is no exception.

Our Saskatchewan Avenue, as it is known, is also part of No. IA Highway, the Trans Canada west of Winnipeg. The Saskatchewan Avenue, our main street as I said earlier, is very much in need of being upgraded. -(Interjection)- That might very well be, but I do want to bring it to the attention of the Honourable First Minister and his Minister of High ways that that program was in the planning stage, and we certainly do hope that you do consider the upgrad ing of my home town's main street. Mr. Speaker, the First Minister has the intention of playing an active role in the economy of our province.

I agree that is a combination of business, labour and government inputs that molds the economy, but it is the degree of input from each sector of society which determines the long-term productivity of the econom ics of our communities. Therefore, may I take this opportunity to encourage this government not to stagnate the business world, not to suffocate the initi ative, but to stick to the basics of good government. I want to go back to Portage, if I may, just for a moment. Portage has seen in recent years much 141 development in the food processing industry.

This is a vital secondary industry which has a great deal of potential for the future of Manitoba's economy. Changes in major transportation arrangements in Canada could easily have beneficial effects on local manufacturing and processing levels, and we must, as a province, ensure that a capable infrastructure is available within the province to handle any increase in demand. I wish to encourage further development of provincial roads in a planned and orderly fashion.

The upgrading of PR 240, as it was mentioned earlier, will likely be on the bottom of the list to be sure, but however, I want to draw to the First Minister and his Minister of Highways' attention to keep in mind that that 240 south of Portage will be and is an integral part of this program and would provide a major link to the Portage la Prairie processing industrial area. Another project which bears a reminder is, once again, the avenue of Saskatchewan Avenue in Portage la Prairie. Besides being productive in a variety of crops, the Portage area is also a producer of livestock.

As a beef producer myself, let me say that the efforts of this government towards the betterment of lives tock producers has been to date virtually non-existent. The Minister of Agriculture, in his campaign for re election, stated he would support the cattle producers of Manitoba in their fight to survive over the low prices and the rising costs of production. Mr. Speaker, this government cannot give up in pressing for a federal beef stabilization program, because if stabilization is going to exist at all, it must exist uniformly on the national level. Mr.

Speaker, the token attempts on the part of the Government of Mani toba of fulfilling an election promise will be unsuc cessful in improving the abilities of farmers to meet the financial woes incurred up to now, or those pre dicted in the near future. A reduction in net income in 1982 of $46 million will not be easily absorbed. The agricultural industry is a victim of the economic recession in the country, and this government should not consider itself a redeemer by offering $12 thou sand to a would-be foreclosed farming enterprise. Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, it is just nothing more than peanuts.

So that doesn't surprise me a bit. Mr. Speaker, the Government of Manitoba of last October the ninth, committed this Province of Mani toba to a multi-million dollar indoor two-pool, gymnasium-recreational complex to be constructed on the grounds of the Manitoba School for Retardates in Portage la Prairie. This new facility was to be con structed for the use of the residents of the school and the residents of Portage la Prairie and surrounding districts.

Plans for the 40,000 square foot building were unveiled by the Premier of the Province at that time, the Honourable Sterling Lyon and the Mayor of Portage la Prairie, Elmer Greenslade, at a press con ference in the City Hall Chambers. -(lnterjection) Yes, that's right, we did. We opened a bridge the same day. The new facility would have both a city operated pool measuring 75 by 45 feet and a smaller self contained pool for the recreational and therapeutic use by the residents of the Manitoba School.

The school's portion of the building would also include a gymnasium, a multi-purpose room for therapy pro grams, an assembly area and a canteen for visiting families and friends of the residents.

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 Mr. Speaker, I'd like to refer to the

article in the Portage paper, following that announcement on October the ninth, a portion which I want to read and I quote Mr. Lyon. He said, "the planned facility's com bination of public and institutional under one roof has got to be one of the most unique projects of its kind in the province. Not only as Premier of the province but as a former resident, I'm delighted. The school and the city's two other provincial institutions, the Correc tional Centre for Women and the Agassiz Centre for Youth will also have access to this pool.

Detailed designs for the new building will be drawn up imme diately and the work put out to tenders some time in February. The province plans to award the contract in March and construction will start some time just after that." -(Interjection)- This was last October the 9th. Mr. Lyon said the work would take 12-18 months to construct. "Other pieces of city and provincial properties were considered as possible sites for the facilities but were found more expensive and less suitable than the final choice.

The use of available land on the grounds of The Manitoba School just makes some good Portage la Prairie horse sense," Mr. Lyon said and it sounds like it is gone. "The province will cover the initial capital cost of the project with the city paying for its part of the facility through payment of an annual rent of about $200,000 for the next 20 years." This agree ment was agreed upon by the government under the Conservative party and the city of Portage la Prairie. Besides that, Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba School Auxil iary Parents' Association has also committed $100,000 to the complex through its Light Up Your Life fund raising campaign and I expect that they will continue to put this money forward, if and when this project ever materializes. "The government will provide the basic maintenance for the complex, including heat and light from an existing power plant that already services all buildings on the grounds. The city will be responsible for the recreational and upkeep costs of the section." Mr.

Speaker, both the cities of Winnipeg and Bran don have received large sums of money in the form of grants for the Pan Am Pool and the Winnipeg Enter prises, the Arena and the Stadium, and the Keystone Centre in Brandon. Brandon just received this past year a large grant of $600,000 to expand an already subsidized facility. What portion was federal money and what was provincial money, I can't say, but I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that the largest share of that cost, of both of these large undertakings, was tax dollars. Mr.

Speaker, I want to see the residents of the Manitoba School get these facilities as soon as possible. I also feel very strongly that the citizens of Portage la Prairie are deserving of some assistance toward a much needed recreational facility. The benefits to the city, in encouraging new industry to the area derived from having such a facility, are immeasurable. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. SCOT T: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First off, I would like to offer you congratulations on your elec tion to the highest position of this House.

It is a posi tion for which I have the utmost of respect and I have 142 every confidence that you will match the demands and the honour of this position. It justly deserves this and has created this through years and years of a tremendous parliamentary heritage that we in this country have inherited. I look forward to your gui dance and your good judgment, as do all new members, and should I wander from the proper procedures from time to time, as I'm sure I may, I will respect your ruling and the spirit in which it is given.

I shall learn from your guidance and I look forward to working in this House under your able and learned direction. To the Member for Flin Flon, I offer you congratulations on your election and colleague as Deputy Speaker. As a fellow freshman member of this Assembly. -(Interjection)- That's right, he certainly is. I'm glad that you will appreciate that in the years to come. I particularly wish you well in learning the rules and the procedures of the House. I have every confi dence that you will master your position with speed and administer it with justice and good order. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to offer congratulations, in par ticular, to all the 23 new members of this Legislature. It is obvious that you all campaigned very well and I hope that you will service your constituencies in the light and the aspirations with which you entered into the campaign some three-and-a-half, four months ago. Naturally, I am particularly happy that 19 of these members are members of the New Democratic Party. It shows, Mr.

Speaker, the attractiveness and the openness of my party to new people and to new ideas, something I might add, then I think that the former government, the Opposition party in this House, those members below me and to my right, wish that they had offered the same sort of light to attract new people to their party in the recent provincial election. Our members are relatively young in political terms; five of our new members are women in the NDP. They are bringing as the suffragettes did, and as was emanated from the wearing of the yellow roses at the opening of this House, light into dark places. Mr.

Speaker, no doubt the lighting in this house is somewhat better than it was years ago, -(Interjection)- you'll get your turn soon. But once again, the light that they bring into this House from both parties, I would hope will show good faith and good demonstrations in this House of not only their willingness to participate but the ability which they are bringing to this house. Again, in attracting new members, in attracting more members of the female sex, is indicative of the open ness and receptiveness to new ideas, and to new initi atives of which our Party is really the cornerstone. Mr.

Speaker, this is also evident in the speeches that have been made thus far, the tremendous castoff we got in this debate from the Honourable Members from the Pas and Burrows. Their speeches were not full of dogma, Mr. Speaker, but rather, sincere and honest initiatives to improve the quality of life for all Manito bans. Every House needs continuity, every Legislative Assembly needs continuity, and for our long-time veterans who are returning from both sides of the House, in particular members long serving, such as the Member for St.

Boniface, who I believe is the longest-serving Member of this Legislature; and those with one or two terms under their belts or breeches, as may be, we new members are going to learn a lot from you. We look forward to learning from you in the years

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 to come, and I hope, that what we will learn is some of your better traits and not some of those many of us have witnessed from the galleries in years past. Mr. Speaker, other members have paid tribute to those members who preceeded them in this House, and I would like at this time to offer my thanks, on behalf of the people in Weston and Brooklands, to Bill Jenkins for his dedicated service which he gave in the number of years he served in this House. I wish both he and his good wife Betty a healthy and an enjoyable retirement; they certainly deserve it.

The northern part of my constituency was represented by Sydney Green since 1965. Mr. Green, I'm sure everyone will agree, was one of the most colourful members this House has ever seen, an excellent debater and, like the Hon ourable Leader of the Opposition, a man of firm and unyielding opinions and beliefs. Winning lnkster, with the greatest majority ever enjoyed for the consti tuency for the NDP, taught me a great deal. I do not intend to follow in Mr. Green's footsteps. If I was to, I am sure that the informed voters of lnkster Consti tuency would reject me as fast as they rejected him. Mr.

Speaker, the name lnkster has been in Manitoba for a great number of years. The riding's name is derived from a gentleman by the name of John lnk ster. He came to Manitoba at the ripe young age of 22 years, as a stonemason for The Bay, recruited by The Bay in their favourite of places, the Orkney Islands of Scotland. He made this trek in 1821, some six years before my own family made the treacherous trans Atlantic journey. He bought himself out of The Bay, which they had to do in times of yore; you had to buy yourself away from the Company to be able to gain freedom.

He acquired some land on the west side of the Red River, about a decade later than the Selkirk Settlers, who first came into this area and started breaking the land. He became a free trader, a mer chant, and built what is now a Museum called Seven Oaks House, in 1851 beside his store. He served as a Justice of the Peace, a Magistrate and a Councillor of Assiniboia. He passed his days in 1874 having served as one of the initial settlers of the Red River Settle ment, and someone that I'm sure we are all indebted to in some degree in this House today and throughout our Province.

I would like to speak now for a few minutes on the make-up of my constituency. As you're all well aware, Weston and Brook lands are the central portions of the southern part of my riding. Weston itself, began at the turn of the century. It was built alongside of the Wes ton Mechanical Shops at the CPR, named by the CPR, and they went overseas as many do to recruit skilled tradesman, machinists, boilermakers, pipefitters, and painters, and whatnot from the British Isles.

The town became renowned for its soccer teams, and for the spirit of the people, that have over the years both been raised, and grown through adulthood in those communities. The Village of Brook lands started out back in 1921. It was incorporated as a village, but actually the first people moving into the area, moved in around the turn of the century as well. It was a village of squatters in some instances, of people who could not afford the higher-priced housing in a rapidly growing City of Winnipeg just barely to the east of them.

In some areas they had wooden sidewalks, and I can remember sto- 143 ries when I first arrived here some years ago, from an old gentleman who spent the twenties in that area, and speaking of the wooden sidewalks they had through out the community, and how, after one particularly harsh winter, spring came along and there was hardly any of the sidewalk left. The residents of the area had to use the sidewalk for firewood to keep them from freezing to death in what we all know, can be a very brutal Winnipeg winter. The village had no water; it had no sewage.

In 1931 the first of the watermains were started, but not until 1956 did much work actually get underway. The community was particularly hard hit during the depression, 75 percent of its population in 1932 was unemployed. It had£: very raucous history in its council and school board, and politics is very close to the people of Brook lands. It paid close attention, as you may well know, and have been sending members of the New Democratic Party to this House for a good number of years. At least once, back in the thirties, the Provincial Government of the day had even disbanded the council.

The council had a reputation back in those years, of even one time firing the whole police force. In 1961 the village became a town of 4,400 people, and seven years later was swallowed up by St. James with promises of great renewal for the area, of urban renewal, promises that really never happened. In 1971, with Unicity, things started to happen for the community, with the help of the provincial and the federal government the City of Winnipeg instigated what is one of our most successful neighbourhood improvement programs in the whole country.

Streets started being rebuilt, storm sewers went into a com munity that never had them before to eleviate flood problems, and the community today with its new playgrounds and even a proposed swimming pool is a vast improvement to what it was just a decade ago. In the north side of lnkster, the southern part of the constituency, is an area called Shaughnessy Park named after, once again, the former President of the CPR. Once again the initial settlers there were CPR workers. In 1959, further north Gilbert Park was established.

Gilbert Park, as you may be well aware, was one of the first and the largest of the public housing projects to be undertaken in that era. Basically, the area was built because of what was then called, urban renewal, which was more like bulldozer renewal, in the area quite a bit east of that in the north end where Lord Selkirk Park now is built. When they were destroying the peoples' homes they had to have somewhere to put them so they build Gilbert Park, and many of the people moved out into that area. It is a problem area, right now.

In many instances the residents in there constantly are com plaining of harassment, vandalism in the area is very high, the turnover rate in the community is exception ally high and we do have to work as a government, in co-operation with the City and the Federal Govern ment, in this area in particular, to try and increase the stability in the community and not always be trying to chase people away after they have gained a job and are starting to earn a decent income, when their rents go up proportionate to their increase in income.

In 1962, Canada's first continuing housing co-op was started in lnkster; it's called Willow Park. It is the

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 largest and most successful housing co-op in Can ada. It started out as 200 homes and in 1965 the first residents moved in. In 1970 an additional 174 units were added along with a 52 apartment senior citizens block where a number of people have been able to stay within a community, a community that they par ticipate in as co-operators. In the community, as well, is the Nor'West Health Clinic, which is a co-operative health clinic and one of the few that we have in Manitoba.

Tyndall Park, which has now become the largest part of the constituency, was really started during the mid'-60s, with a lot of expansion in the late '60s and the early '7 0s. Garden Grove is an extension of Tyn dall Park, in the late '70s and is still develo ping. Another

section which was started prior to 1977 with plans and has just been sitting there with empty streets ever since the previous administration closed down any developme nt of lnkster Garde ns by parcel ling it out, away from the National Housing and Rene wal Corporation towards private developers who have had very little success in developing the area. lnk ster also holds one of the provinces largest industrial parks. A vast number of employees are there and I look forward to working co-operatively with them in the future.

In canvassing, as I am sure all people did, especially new members, and I would hope the old members as well, you learn a vast amount when you are going door to door - and in lnkster I hit about 7,600 doors. You learn, in particular, from your senior citizens you are visiting, the people who have made up this community for 40 and 50 and 60 years. Their vast political, eco nomic history that they offer to you at the door, and after election as well, give us an indication of the great heritage they have left us.

As many of the people here should be certainly aware of the older part of lnk ster, especially in Weston and Brookla nds, was really the birthplace of social democracy in Manitoba. Partici pants from that area were very active in striki ng out for civil liberties, for collective bargaining and freedom, much like the solidarity union in Poland is today, in their 1919 strike. It was the home of one of our greatest political leaders this province has ever produced, and I speak of James Shaker Woodsworth, founder of the CCF, a humanist, pacifist, and one of the most respected poli ticians in Canada's history.

Stanley Knowles, Cana da's living legend if you wish, perhaps our most out standing statesman and a man we can all look to as an example to follow in our parliamentary careers. I am sure that all members of this House will join me in wishing the Honourable Stanley Knowles a continued recovery and a return to his beloved House of Commons. The constituency is changing, Mr. Speaker, it is changing quite rapidly. At one time would have been made up largely of British stock, of mixed European heritage on the North side of the constituency, but it has been enriched, Mr.

Speaker, enriched greatly by the addition of a great many people from all corners of the globe. Tyndall Park is in an area with an incredibly rich culture diversity and I am sure that the people of that area will add significantly to our province's cultural heritage in the years to come. 144 The diverse capabilities of the tradespersons. the engineers, the salesperso ns, health workers, entre preneurs. social workers. and labourers who make up my constituency are really the people who are going to be giving, alongside their brothers and sisters throughout the province, the future for this province.

These people are the citizens who will be creating the future for our province, and I look forward to working with these people in the forseeable future. From my own family history, Mr. Speaker, I will speak in a minute on my pride in the heritage of this country and I am very proud that my own ancestors, on my father's side of the family, came to this country in 1827. They came from southern Scotland, the vil lage of Alloa and were weavers, owners of a small mill.

When they came to Canada in 1827 they settled in what has become quite a renowned county for Scottish history in Canada, the County of Glen garry, just on the east side of the On tario-Quebec border. The sweat, the toil that they bore forth carried forward to be able to allow me and my parents and grandparents to have developed into citizens which they have guided to produce proud and good citizens of this country. They've taught us respect, responsibility to go along with that, and a civic duty, a great pride in being raised in a country as free and as open as Can ada.

It is through this education within the family, this education within the community really, that I started to evolve and develop into a social democrat and care for people and the assistance they wanted to give towards a fellow man. is certainly a major reason, at least, that I decided to seek office in this most recent election. M. Le Presid ent, quand j'etais un jeune gari:;on j'ai etudie mon pays et j'ai voyage beaucoup. Comme voyageur j'ai appris a aimer mon pays le Canada et les peuples qui le compose nt. En voyageant j'ai appris a mieux connaltre les dif ferents groupes des provinces.

J'ai habite dans 4 pro vinces, et M. le President chaqu'une avait sa place speciale dans mon coeur. C'est pour cette raison que j'ai parle si fort cont re les efforts de !'admin istration conservatrice qui ne voulait inclure la chartre des droits dans notre nouvelle con stitution. Notre pays a eu une histoire qui n'est pas trop propre dans ses considerations envers les travail leurs. les minorites et les personnes qui ne sont pas d'accord avec le gouvernement du jour.

Autre fois nous avons eu les polices contre les grevistes a Win nipeg en 1919, la deten tion des japonais pendant la deuxieme guerre, la deportation des plusieurs milliers de pauvres, et de chaumeurs pendant la depression dans les annees 30, les lois de Duplessis au Quebec contre un groupe religieux et ici au Manitoba avec la loi de 1890 contre le droit linguistique et educationnel des francophones. Je suis bien fier maintenant d'habiter dans une prov ince qui est encore bilingue comme le voulait la con· stitution de 1870.

Malheureusement, la culture fra ni;:aise a suffer! beaucoup pendant les dernieres 90 annees d'injustice. J'espere que les racines son t assez fortes pour que les Franco-Man itobae ns puissent continuer a faire valoir leur culture aupres des autres groupes du Manitoba; cette culture qui occupait jadis une place si importante dans notre histoire. Cet avec plaisir que nous avons 3 deputes fronco-

phones avec le NPD. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I've travelled wide and far, from sea to glorious sea in this country, by car, by plane, by thumb. by canoe and by foot. -( Inte rjection)- that's right, this way. I had no trouble getting rides. I've visited every constituency in this province and I can say that we all, as MLAs, can be very proud of each and every corner of this great province that we repres ent. I am confident that the government of which I am a part will service each area of the province with equal interest. -( Interj ection)- En frani;:ais? The good stuff? Okay, here comes the good stuff. Mr.

Speaker, some four or four and a half years ago. I was employed - as many of my colleagues know and members opposite as well - with the Department of Finance. With the turn of events in 1977, and at the wishes of the people of Manitoba, the previous NOP Government was defeated, and a new government under the leadership of the Honourable Sterling Lyon took office. -(In te rjection)- Mr. Speaker, many people hoped it would be a great day. I think the results of November 17th showed them that it was not necessarily such a great day. When a government takes office, Mr.

Speaker, I would say that one of the things it's got to do first off is set an example. It can't go running about gleefully, trying to build up bad news, trying to build up deficits or whatever it may be for their own political advan tage. The government of which I am a part and I am watching and I am participating in, I can assure you, will not be involved in the kind of fiscal shenanigans that the previous administration was in its initial years and throughout future years in this province. I will remember those words.

My colleagues will remember those words and we will, as a government in this pro vince, honour our commitment to the people to give good and honest government. Mr. Speaker, the present Opposition in 1977, cam paigned on stories of wild spending, of inability to control the finances of the province and in order, once they got to office they had to prove they were right. So, one of the first things they did is they changed the accounting rules, No company can do that; no government mid-should do that; no decent govern ment would do that. You do not change the rules of accounting year. in mid-st ream.

If you are ever going to do it, you change the accounting rules when you change fiscal years with the full announcements of what you are doing, not eight or nine months into one fiscal year. They started off looking at any message they could get from the public service that there was going to be a high government. They would take and they'd run with it and they'd run to the press and show just how bad the situation was supposed to have been. Then things started turning out that they weren't going to be quite that bad, so they had to start building them up. In April, this is after the year end, Mr.

Speaker, April of 1978, they started receiving letters with details from the Federal Governm ent about a mistake that the Federal Government had made in a 1976 tax year, where they had overpaid all the provin ces of this country, both equalization, personal income tax and corporation income tax because the Federal Government has overestimated the growth in revenues in Canada. To Manitoba -( Interjection)- Yes it is, it often is 4 March, 1982 145 typical of Ottawa, I shall agree.

The Manitoba Government was to suffer a loss of revenues to be deducted from bi-weekly cheque we received from the Federal Government; they were to deduct $30.6 million during the fiscal year 1978-79. Mr. Speaker, the Federal Governm ent did deduct that money. The problem was that the administration in power in Mani toba at the time decided not to reflect that decrease in revenue in the year in which they were in office but they decided to break the tradition of receiving a buck in the books when it is received and going back and saying that the money was not received in the pre vious year. That amounted, Mr.

Speaker, to some $30.6 million. But even that wasn't enough, even that wasn't enough, there are little trust accounts about the government which enable organizations, which are not necessar ily within a department but kind of at arms lenghth, such as, the Health Services Co mmission, such as, the School Divisions, where we are committed to provid ing funds for them through the revenues of the province. Now, at that time, in '7 7-78 we were undergoing a change in The Fiscal Arrangement's Act, something we were undergoing much to our dissatisfaction at this point in time.

In 77 -78, on March 31 of that year, they decided that they did not want to have included in the Estimates of the next year's Budget so me $10,639,000 of Expenditures which would not be paid until late spring, early summer. So they went back and took it from the previous year's revenues and depos ited it into a trust account for the Manitoba Health Services Co mmission. That wasn't that bad, Mr. Speaker, maybe it was taking a bit of liberty but it wasn't that much of a crime.

But about two months later when they realized that they were going to have to pay the MHSC an addi tional amount of some $12,781 ,000 later in the summer, even into the following fall, they then went back some two months after the books had been closed, reo pened them and took another $12 million. What did this add up to? -( Interj ection)- Yes, go back and read your public accounts, Sir. This added, artificially, some $54 million to the deficit of the previous adminis tration. It reduced the deficit in their initial year by some the same $54 million.

But that's not much - (I nterjection)- That's not much the former Minister of Economic Development says but they did not stop here. -( Interjection)- Oh, he said nonsense, excuse me. No, this is not nonsense and if you were to follow the events of your government as closely as we are following the events of ours you would know and you may have protested back at that point in time too, rather than just being the purveyors of bad news. But, Mr. Speaker, they did not stop there, they want to keep going.

In 1978-79 they decided that they were going to keep an election commitment of tax cuts and they went ahead with tax cuts. Now, Mr. Speaker, a lot of us do not necessarily disagree with tax cuts. If a tax cut is equitable, if a tax cut goes to those who need it most, it can often do a great amount of good to the people receiving those greater benefits. But the prob lem is, when they cut the tax rate from 56 percent to 54 percent in the personal income tax it cost the provi nee somewhere in the vicinity of $13 million to $15 million per year for the next four years, in every one of those

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 years we were running at a deficit. In every one of those years we are now going to be paying back on both interest and. perhaps. additional revenues taken from other sources where the money is needed. We are going to have to start paying back their tax cuts which went. I shall show in a few minutes, to the upper income groups in a very disproportionate way. Mr.

Speaker. when you take into consideration property taxes paid by individuals and the various tax credits that are given, and assuming as well a full uptake of the group of programs that the former Administration offered - and I might add that the uptake is never 100 percent. it is much much less than that. When one considers, as well, both in singles and in family groups. the people who are the biggest winners with these tax reductions were people with incomes over $50,000.00. The people over $50,000 incomes. a full 100 percent of them, came out gaining in the new tax system.

For people in a lower income bracket only 51 percent came out better than they had previous before they even had tax cuts. For goodness sakes, you'd think if a government is going to go ahead, give tax cuts, you'd think that their action would be to give it to those who need it the most. and here 50 percent of the people were worse off than they were previously. -(Interject ion)- First of the horror stories. the cows are coming home, Sir, the cows are coming home, even Tory cows come home. As you go up the income scale, for people between $7,500 and $15,000 about 70 percent of those families are better off.

So still 30 percent would have been better off under the old tax system. In the $15,000 to $25,000 about 80 percent were better off and virtually 100 percent of those over $50,000 and almost 100 percent of those between $25,000 and $50,000.00. It is with this 100 percent uptake for the people in the largest income categories that really gave the people of Manitoba a better indication of what their government really was up to.

When you look at the net transfers of where the money went to, who received the money, you see people with over $50,000 income had tax savings of almost $800; people between $7,500 and $15,000 incomes had tax benefits of $117, $2.00 a week; $2.00 a week for the people in the lower brackets and $800 a year for those in the upper income brackets. But the government decided it was going to try and correct some of these anomalies, Mr. Speaker, so what did they start to do?

It started first-off, when they came in they came in with a vengeance to get rid of tax credits, they did not like tax credits, especially the Cost-of-Living Tax Credit which went to the lowest income groups. So, they proposed initially to do away with them altogether. Thank goodness the bureau crats were effective enough over a couple of years period to. get them to cry their rhetoric and to still maintain some semblance of a tax credit program. Even with that, Mr. Speaker, the Cost of Living Tax Credit has suffered a loss of approximately $20 million per year.

The pensioners, we've heard much talk about pensioners and the assistance to pensioners, they were forecasting that pensioners were to benefit to the tune of $4.5 million because of the Pensioner School Tax Assistance Plan. Actually, it's turned out to more like approximately $2 million. The CRISP program, we all heard lots about CRISP 146 program. I think it was more aimed at crispy critters than it was people who needed the assistance. We find that their initial White paper forecast that it would almost balance off the loss to lower income groups of the Cost of Living Tax Credit.

CRISP was originally budgeted, or planned to be, a cost of approximately $19.4 million. Right now, they're expecting, I under stand, to spend only in the vicinity of $7 million to those people for those benefits; that is all, Mr. Premier. -(Interjection)- It certainly wasn't on the backs of the lowest income people. Mr.

Speaker, we have to look and to face right now a desperate situation in this province because of both the unrealistic tax measures that were taken in pre vious years and, because of constant fed-bashing by the previous government in Ottawa, we are now faced with the position where equalization payments are going to cost us just a bit less, over the next five years, losses in transfer payments of almost a billion dollars. We're not going to have the grace, Mr.

Speaker, that the former administration did under the old Fiscal Arrangements Act which was brought in under the New Democratic Party Administration of the Day and fought for by them of the day as well. They were rescued in their deficits, in the year 1980 they were rescued by equalization. They forecast revenues for equalization, Mr. Speaker, of $241.8 million; they received $366.1 million, an increase of $124 million which would have taken their deficit from their figure of $45 million up to almost $170 million. Mr.

Speaker, when you look at this kind of rescuing that happened in years gone by, by the federal government of the province, and the continual baiting that this province did in Ottawa, screaming for them to cut down on expenditures, saying that they were caus ing inflation, saying that they were the cause of all the evils in this country. The Federal Government uni quely came up recently, and what we are now trying to negotiate with, trying to make a little bit better pie out of it, with a new equalization formula that uniquely hurts two provinces, two provinces only, Quebec and Manitoba.

Manitoba's looking at losses of, I said, almost a billion dollars. I wonder why, Mr. Speaker, why would it be? Mr. Speaker, this province is a prov ince that needs co-operation with other provinces; it needs co-operation with the Federal Government. It's a province that can stand on its own two feet, yes, and we will stand on our own two feet, but we're not going to do it at the cost of other provinces, at the cost of the Federal Government and the reputation that this country has developed over the years.

And, certainly, with the clashes that we have had, the first-class con frontational politics that we have engaged in in the past four years are leaving us a sad legacy when we are now dealing, basically, with the frustration of it, Mr. Speaker. When you have a position that you're faced with in the Federal Go vernment - and even when I was in there last week they expressed how happy they were to see a government with a new face. a government with a co-operative face, not a subser vient face, but a face and an effort that will work towards making Manitoba a better place to live. Who said this?

When I was in Ottawa on Garrison on Tuesday. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 member's time has expired. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I hope that you'll deduct that time for my allotment for speaking from that lengthy round of applause. I appreciate it but I do have a number of items that I'd like to cover. May I begin on congratulating you, Sir, on your assumption of your role as Speaker of this Assembly.

I know that, from my experience with you in the past, you have exemplified your fairness, your impartiality and your even-handed manner in dealing with committees of this House and at all times in the debate have shown that you're worthy of this particular role. May I, as well, congratulate the Deputy Speaker, the Member for Flin Flon, a newcomer who has been given the responsibility as your Deputy and I'm sure he'll carry it out very well.

May I, as well, add my congratulations to the many that have been received by the Mover and Seconder of the Throne Speech for their fine contributions, again as newcomers to the Assembly. We're looking forward to many other fine contributions from them as well as from the many others who join us in this Assembly. I refer to you as newcomers; I welcome you all and I say to you that I empathize with you because I still think of myself as a newcomer, being of the class of '79, there are only two of us left.

We are, indeed, a special breed I suppose, as all of you are as newcomers to this Assembly, and I hope that you, like I, will get th� feeling of thrill and excitement that occurs each time you stand up to speak in this House. May it never leave you, may it never become a dull and boring expe rience because I think that every time we are here it's important; it's important to the people we represent, hopefully, it's important to Manitobans now and in the future. As well, I'd like to make particular special reference to the seven women who join us in the Assembly now.

These seven women I'm sure have a great future. They are taking their rightful place, join ing in the responsibility as active, vital, contributing members to our society.

The newcomers on the other side, of course, are breaking new tradition in the New Democratic Party; the newcomers on our side, of course, are joining a rich and fine tradition that was established in the past by many who have been menti oned: Carolyn Morrison, Thelma Forbes, a former Speaker of this Assembly, Inez Trueman and, of course, Honourable Norma Price, former Member of Cabinet, all of whom were Conservative Members of the Legislature and contributed very much in their own rights to the dealings of the Assembly.

As well, in addressing the newcomers, I should say that my wife often reminds me that women are the most underutilized resource in our world today, per haps, that at least 50 percent of the brain power in society is vested in the women of our society. It's an untapped human resource that we ought to be doing more to include in all of our activities in society, and therefore, it's important that you join us now here. Mr.

Speaker, I also wanted to recognize some of the returning members and congratulate them - I shouldn't say some of them, all of them - a Freudian slip, but I want to congratulate all of the returning members, some of them with increased responsibili ties. The Premier has seen fit to recognize many on his 147 side and put the hand on them for increased responsi bilities; and obviously, some of us on this side were surprised that a few of his veterans were overlooked for key positions in his government, and we recognize that they too, of course, will play a role with their experience on behalf of his government.

In particular, I was thinking as the Member for Elm wood was not included in the Cabinet, that the Pre mier had overlooked an opportunity to add some valued experience as well in that regard. Of course, some suggested on our side that perhaps there was reason, perhaps the Premier had wanted him to have additional time to spend writing his new book, his sequel to his first book, wnich I understand was entitled "Thursdays are Caucus Days." At the same time, of course, we found from his speech when he was set up to follow the Leader of the Opposition, that indeed, he was highly regarded by the Premier.

He was sent to follow our Leader in his speech; and during his speech, he revealed that he is, of course, being given more responsibilities as having been sent to the First Ministers' Conference on the Economy along with the Premier on opening day, and of course, going to Washington in the company of the Member for Pembina to deal with communications matters. And of course, communications are very important to any government, and obviously, he's being given a very important role. Mr. Speaker, as well, I wanted to address a number of the things that were raised in the Throne Speech and make comment on them.

There are a number of fine sounding statements contained in the Throne Speech - parenthood and apple pie, as they say - a blueprint for future action of the government, the Throne Speech is supposed to be. Of course, blue prints normally have a great deal of detail, but this one didn't for some reason have too much detail. The blueprint for action - well, action depends of course - if you look for action in the Throne Speech, you have to look for action words. I note that the word "review" is used eight times in the Throne Speech. That's, of course, calling for a great deal of action.

It reminds me a great deal every time one of the members of the Treasury Bench gets up to answer a question from our side about what's happening with major projects; what's happening with commitments for construction here; what's happening with com mitments for job creation there; the response is "we're reviewing the situation." It reminds me a great deal of that song from Oliver - "we're reviewing the situa tion" - you know. There are other -(lnterjection) yeah, I could do that, but later - calls for action, calls for action. Yes, okay, "monitor" - that's a good one.

I also see that the word "monitor" is used in the Throne Speech. The Minister of Northern Affairs and the Environment said that he was going to do some wonderful things to protect the environment, and there are some very star tling comments in the Throne Speech about just what he plans to do. "The issue of acid rain will be addressed by increased monitoring and public infor mation programs." Now, that's a very startling action to take against acid rain.

When it comes to monitoring, I suppose we're going to be checking to see just exactly what's happening, and of course, that's the very thing that that member, when he was on this side

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 of the House, criticized us for doing too much of - monitoring for acid rain. Public information programs: I see he's finally got around to releasing a pamphlet on acid rain that had been developed under our administration, and the Queen's Printer has produced it, and he's going to be giving public information on acid rain, a Manitoba perspective.

Well, that's very interesting, but I would suggest that the campaign that's being carried out currently by the coalition against acid rain, with David Clayton Thomas doing a song, is probably more effec tive than the public information program that his department is undertaking. Mr. Speaker, the mega projects: we've already had many, many references to them about the action that is or isn't tak ing place on these major projects.

The fact that there are 3,000, at least, direct construction jobs and 2,000 full-time direct jobs at stake here, those don't seem to be a call for action, although the Throne Speech is supposed to be a blueprint for future action. The government has announced an increase in Social Allowance rates throughout the province, 16- point-something percent.

You know, that's all well and good and very commendable, and I'm sure that Manitobans who rely on Social Allowances for their major source of income - although they'll be deligh ted to hear that initiative - would be a lot more reas sured to hear that the government was finding them jobs and something in the future - finding them meaningful well-paying jobs so that they wouldn't have to rely on social allowances for their future source of income. But the mega projects which have the biggest single opportunity for the government to provide this, of course, are being just ignored.

I believe it's Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs that says that self-actualization exceeds the need for food, shelter, clothing, all the security things. But this government doesn't seem to be interested in giving people the opportunity for self actualization by providing them with meaningful well paying employment. They seem to be more inter ested, of course, in the little patchwork things.

There are references in the Throne Speech to Con servation but I don't think that the conservation, the major conservation that Manitobans might be looking for. which would be the conservation of taxpayers dollars, is not what we find in the Throne Speech.

There's an advantage when you have an opportu nity to follow some of the others who have spoken in the House ahead of you on the Throne Speech because you can always refer to some of the things that they've said in their speeches and I don't make these comments to embarrass them because I want to reinforce my belief that they have every right to stand by their thoughts and their beliefs in debate and that, although we may disagree, we still will debate these issues as women and men who have been sent here to represent our people.

I've enjoyed the fresh new ideas that have been presented in the Throne Speech Debate by so many of the newcomers and I emphasize that I think we all want the same things for our society; we want to build a better place for Manitobans to live in in future; we want one of equal opportunity, one in which people have care and concern and are willing to work for the betterment of their fellow men but our ideas of how we will accomplish these obviously differ 148 very greatly.

I think that there's been a great excess of socialist theory propounded by the other side, per haps a little too much smug cynicism, that we are the only ones who care, we are the only ones who under stand the desires and the feelings of the economically and socially disadvantaged in this society. I think there's been a little too much of that. There was a very cynical smug reference to the golden ghetto as being the area which the Leader of the Opp osition represented in the speech, I believe, of the Member for River East.

I just would like to remind him that the Minister of Education and I both live in the so-called golden ghetto of the Premier's riding and, not together I want to emphasize, but we both live in the golden ghetto. I don't think that makes her any less able to represent the ideas and the desires and the goals and the ambitions of the people of Logan than I am able to relate to and empathize with the needs and the desires and the ambitions and the goals of the people from Burrows.

Burrows, my former home, ter ritory, the area in which I was born and raised, in Burrows and I don't think that I am any less able to relate to their needs and desires than is the Member for Logan or the Member for River East, unless he has some special qualifications or training or back ground that will allow him to better represent those needs and desires and ambitions, but I would suggest he proba bly doesn't. And I would hope that he's not trying to promote some sort of class warfare among the people in this House.

I would hope that he's not trying to suggest that we cannot relate or empathize with those socially and economically disadvantaged people in this society, anymore than he might suggest that one has to have been a drug addict in order to counsel or advise a person who's suffering the ravages of drug addiction; or that an obstetrician or gynecologist can't relate to a person having a baby just simply because he has not had that experience himself. I would hope he's not trying to portray that sort of feeling to people in this House. Mr.

Speaker, despite the fact that, as I say, as a youngster growing up in what is now the Burrows constituency area, I came from an immigrant family, perhaps people of ethnic minority, people who some might say lived in abject poverty, despite all of that and despite the fact that my father's first language wasn't English and many of our neighbours did not speak the second language of this country, we did not feel deprived. we did not feel that we were condemned to live in deprivation. either socially or economically, because we believed that there was an opportunity here for us. in this land.

We weren't just looking for government handouts; we weren't looking for government to redress all of our problems. In fact, the people of my father's family fled oppres sive regimes who were trying to redress all of the social problems through mak ing everybody equal. And in making everyone equal they took away their basic rights and freedoms. the basic freedom and right to self-determination: bring everybody to an equal level.

I don't think that that's what our job is here in this House and I would hope that members opposite don't either, because in taking away one's right to solve one's problems, to self-determination, to work and better oneself I think, in taking that away by say ing that the government can make everybody equal,

Thursday, 4 March, 1982 we take away a part of people's freedoms. I don't think that people want equality. I do think they want equality of opportunity, Mr. Speaker, because I don't think it's possible for any of us to guarantee equality of status or achievement for peo ple in society. All of us are not born with equal por tions of ability, talent, motivation, desire to achieve, or even good luck, Sir, I'd still be in line waiting for mine.

But I think what people want from society is one that provides an opportunity for all of our children, no matter what their backgrounds, whether they come from immigrant families, whether they come from dis advantaged minority groups, our Native people in Canada, that they can work to the limit of their motiva tion, their capabilities to achieve great things, to pro vide that kind of climate that people of ordinary abili ties, of ordinary backgrounds can achieve extra ordinary things. I think that's what people are looking for.

And I don't think that kind of thing will be provided for us by government intervention; I don't think that kind of thing can be provided for us by governments of a socialist bent giving their redistributionist theory, economic theory, to society in an effort to make us all equal. I don't think that we can recreate things that God has created as not being equal and make them equal. Mr.

Speaker, I don't think that a democratic society can bestow benefits equally on people, even though the new Minister of Economic Development and Tour ism said that she thought they could, because it wil.1 always be in proportion to their efforts, to their investment, to their risk, and to their ability, that they will receive benefits from society, not simply because they exist Mr. Speaker, .I 'll pause there knowing that you're about to interrupt me and carry on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: When we next reach this item the honourable member will have 21 minutes remaining.

The time being 10 o'clock and time for adjournment I'm leaving the Chair. The House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 10 :00 a.m. tomorrow morning. (Friday) 149

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-6b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 6b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	99b845d3810e55fb19b33ee901f8036900482abc

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