British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, November 22, 2005

H1122am-06

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, November 22, 2005 Morning Sitting Volume 5, Number 6 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Iona V. Campagnolo, CM, OBC FIRST SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations .......................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation .......................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ..........................................................................................................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining............................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Bill Bennett Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services .......................................................................................................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General................................................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Deregulation ...................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts .........................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole.................................................................................................................................................

Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)...................................................................................Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP)....................................................................... Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon. Pat (L) ..................................................................Prince George North Bennett, Hon.

Bill (L) .....................................................................East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ..................................................................Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).......................................... Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)..........................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) ..............................................

Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)................................................................... Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ......................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, Dave (NDP).................................................Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon.

Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ............................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) .............................................................................North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)................................................................. Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) ..............................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP)......................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) ............................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ....................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...................................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...................................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP)............................................................................ Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) .................................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)................................................................... Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)...........................................................

Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)................................................................ Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)....................................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP)............................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) .................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)..............................................................................

Nanaimo Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................ Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)....................................................................

Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP)......................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)......................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L)...................................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) ....................................................... Peace River North Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon.

Wally, QC (L)............................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)................................................................ Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ......................................................................................... Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)........................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...................................................................Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon.

Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) .....................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP).......................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ..............................................................Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP)..............................................

Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ........................................ Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP).......................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ......................................................... Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon. Carole (L)..........................................................

Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) ......................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) .......................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L).............................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) ......................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)........................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ...............................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................. Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North....................................................................................Bob Simpson Cariboo South................................................................................... Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ....................................................................... Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ........................................................................... Hon.

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke ......................................................Norm Macdonald Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville................................................................... Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................................Doug Routley Delta North........................................................................................

Guy Gentner Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay ............................................................................Hon. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin ............................................................. Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson..........................................................

Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .......................................................................Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ............................................................................Sindi Hawkins Langley................................................................................................

Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca........................................................................John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...........................................................Michael Sather Nanaimo ...........................................................................................Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville..........................................................................

Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston.................................................................................. Corky Evans New Westminster ........................................................................Chuck Puchmayr North Coast .........................................................................................Gary Coons North Island.................................................................................... Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale ....................................................

Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................. Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head.................................................................Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon ..............................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain................................................. Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood .........................................................................Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast.....................................................Nicholas Simons Prince George North .........................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .....................................................................John Rustad Richmond Centre .......................................................................... Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ............................................................................... John Yap Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon.

Murray Coell Saanich South..............................................................................David Cubberley Shuswap ................................................................................ Hon. George Abbott Skeena ...............................................................................................Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................

Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton ....................................................................................Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge...................................................................... Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ............................................................................... Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock..........................................................................

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.................................................................. Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings...................................................................... Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington ........................................................... David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway...........................................................................

Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara.................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ........................................................................Carole James Victoria-Hillside................................................................................

Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary ............................................................ Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi............................................................. Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet ..........................................................................................Harry Lali

CONTENTS Tuesday, November 22, 2005 Morning Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... .............................................. 2067 Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 2067 Estimates: Office of the Premier (continued) C. James Hon. G.

Campbell Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 2081 Estimates: Ministry of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy (continued) Hon. S. Bond A. Dix M. Sather D. Chudnovsky J. Horgan

2067 TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 The House met at 10:04 a.m. Prayers. Introductions by Members D. Cubberley: It's my pleasure this morning to welcome to the precinct an d the chamber two grade 11 classes from Pacific Christian School who are here to- day with their teacher Mr. Tim Kamsteeg. They're here to learn about the history of this venerable institution and are enjoying seeing all of the sights there are to see in this beautiful building. Would the House please join me in making them welcome here today. [1005] Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply.

In this chamber we will be debating the estimates for the Premier; in the little House, for the information of members, the estimates for the Ministry of Education. Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: OFFICE OF THE PREMIER (continued) The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); S. Hawkins in the chair. The committee met at 10:07 a.m. On Vote 8: Office of the Premier, $10,664,000 (con- tinued). C. James: Today I'd like to start off by talking about the new relationship and first nations issues and taking a little bit of time to explore that and to explore that issue.

As the Premier knows, when the announcement was made around the new relationship and the docu- ment signed by the Premier and first nations leader- ship in British Columbia, he was joined by colleagues on this side of the House in saying that we supported that direction and supported the direction that was being taken in the New Relationship document — a very positive step for British Columbia to look at building a better relationship with first nations.

As we know, and as I know the Premier knows, benefiting first nations co mmunities and making sure that we provide support for first nations communities isn't simply a benefit to those communities. It is, in fact, a benefit to all British Columbians. Making sure that we address the poverty, health, employment and edu- cation issues for first nations across British Columbia will benefit us all. Dealing with the uncertainty around treaty negotiations will again provide a solid economic base for us in British Columbia if we're actually able to provide the kind of certainty that just isn't there right now.

Certainly, you have our support in making sure that document actually works and goes forward. I just want to talk a little bit about actions related to the document, because I think that's the important piece, not only in this is sue but in the other issues we've canvassed over the last day or so, which is to make sure that the actions follow the words.

We know that one of the first relati onships that was built with first nations — around the Tsawwassen accord that was signed by the Premier and signed by first nations leadership around children and families — shows, in my mind, that we need to be very careful about making sure that our actions follow our words. That document talked about support for regionalization, support for moving in the area of ch ildren and families and sup- port for first nations communities, and in fact, we saw budget reductions that impact ed that decision after the fact. I think it points out again the importance of making sure that….

The words are th ere. That's wonderful, but I think first nations would remind all of us in this Leg- islature that they've heard those words before. It's im- portant to have actions follow words for all of these issues. [1010] Just to talk a little bit about the document itself, we heard the Premier's staff talk about the fact that the document wasn't a signed commitment. It was simply an agreement to enter into discussions.

I wonder if the P r e m i e r c a n i n d i c a t e w h e n w e e x p e c t t h a t t o b e a signed document, what the process is for that and what the time lines and expectatio ns are from his point of view on that issue. Hon. G. Campbell: This, indeed, is one of those cross-government issues that I was trying to identify yesterday. I should go back for a moment and say that the New Relationship document that was drafted by the First Nations Leadership Council and the government was not a signatory document.

It was really saying: "Here's the broad framework that we hope to be able to move forward in." I am very pleased that the First Nations Summit, the Assembly of First Nations and the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, for the first time in, I think, three or four decades, have come together and said: "Let's work to- gether with the government with regard to this." Really, what we're trying to do is establish not just a new vision but a new set of actions that we can take, which would — again I want to emphasize this — go across government.

So it's a theme that, in terms of my office, we will be following as we move forward. The First Nations Trust that we put aside in Sep- tember — the $100 million for the New Relationship trust — is in the process of being developed with the deputy minister of aboriginal affairs, my office and the Leadership Council. I actually don't know exactly where they are with regard to that, but I hear that the progress is good. That is clearly something we've got to come to conclusion on before the end of January.

2068 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 [A. Horning in the chair.] First of all, I want to acknowledge the fact that the Leader of the Opposition has said from the outset that this was something that the opposition is interested in doing, as we are as a government. I concur with the Leader of the Opposition. In fact, one of the things that I think will distinguish this approach from previous a p p r o a c h e s i s t h a t w h e n w e h a v e t h e p l a n p u t i n place and we're building that plan with first nations leaders, it will be an action plan. But it is a long-term plan as well.

We're not pretending we can solve a lot of this overnight. We intend to make sure that as we put that plan together, there are specific actions and specific steps we will take to assure British Colum- bia's first nations that we don't just have a shared vision, but we have a shared course of action that we intend to follow and that we intend to measure as we go through this. So as we think about this, I think that this week will be a very important first ministers' meeting.

I have had the opportunity of going across the country and meet- ing with other provincial leaders, as well as with the Prime Minister, with regard to building a new relation- ship for first nations. We've focused in on five specific areas. One is health, the second is education, the third is housing, the fourth is economic development, and the fifth is new relationship. [1015] If I can stand back for a second and just talk about British Columbia.

There ar e about 100,000 decisions a year made in British Columbia that could have a direct impact on first nations people across the province — both urban aboriginal people and aboriginal and first nations people on reserve. Those are of critical impor- tance to all of us in terms creating stability and long- term certainty. I think one of the things that has been clear as we've listened to the first nations le adership is….

The critical shift in direction here is that we're saying to the first nations leadership, "You map the course, and we'll follow it with you," as opposed to: "We'll map the course, and you can tell us what's going on." In terms of our time lines in terms of specifics of the New Relationship trust — that time line — we're going to have to have the conclusion of that and what the framework will be for that. If there's a legislated re- quirement for that, it will have to be done in time for the next session of the Legislature, because we have to do this in terms of March 31, 2006.

We hope that we can move through the next number of months to build on what we've done in British Columbia and perhaps include the federal government in building a new rela- tionship as well. I think it's critical to remind everyone, as we move to the new relationship, that it's not about moving away from treaties. In fact, it 's an effort to try and cre- ate an environment and an atmosphere where we can move on with treaties and actually have some resolu- tion brought into place.

My goal is to have the plan that we come up with, with first nations leadership, set specific measures, set specific targets, set the map, the milestones that we're going to reach. I do believe this is important. The mile- stones we may want to reach are interesting, but the milestones that first nations leaders commit themselves to are going to be more interesting, and they're going to be far more effective. We are moving in all of those directions to try and ensure that happens.

For example, part of the new relationship is the work that's being done by first nations right now on what they consider to be the first nations pine beetle action plan. As I mentioned last night, there are three chiefs who are in the lead with regard to that. All first nations directly involved will have an input into that, with their own processes to develop that. There will be direct contact with the Minister of Forests as we do that. That's an example of specifics which will be re- sourced effectively in one ministry. In health, if I can use heal th just as a second exam- ple.

The Leader of the Opposition may recall that in September of 2004 there was an announcement by the federal government of $700 million for aboriginal health in Canada. It was an announcement. The chal- lenge is to take that announcement and to move it down through into different categories. We've said that we would like to be more specific on health. We know, for example, that right now there's about a 400-percent greater incidence of diabe- tes in first nations communities than in non–first na- tions communities. We don't need any more measures to figure out that that's wron g.

What we really want to do now is start mapping out a plan which will shrink that gap so the incidence of diabetes in first nations is the same as it is in non–first nations at the end of ten years. We know there is a higher incidence of addiction, youth suicides, so we want to have a plan that will be specific to British Columbia and British Columbia first nations, in which we work with them and where they say: "We think that if you did XYZ, we could get some benefits out of that." I do think that's a critical part of this.

I guess one of the most important parts of building a new relationship is building capacity in first nations t o d e a l w i t h t h e h u g e a r r a y o f i s s u e s t h a t w e a s k e d them to be part of and that they rightly asked to be part of. We have to think in terms of how we can do that. The first part of that is to try and get all of our collec- tive minds…. It's not that we don't want to do this. It's to try and get our collective institutional minds around including first nations as early as possible in the processes that we run through.

We want to try and build innovative processes within the public service. We want to look at opportu- nities, for example, for reciprocal secondments where first nations institutions may provide the government with some advice and where the government may send some people out to the first nations. So there's some back and forth with regard to that. All of that is an im- portant part of this initiative.

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2069 [1020] I'll just close with one last point. I think that at the end of the day, what we should recognize is that there's an enormous opportunity for British Columbia here. It happens to include first nati ons, and it happens to in- clude the youth of first nations. There is a significant disparity between non–first nations demographics and first nations demographics. Th ere's a larger number of young people being born into first nations communi- ties than non–first nations.

We want to be sure that each of those children has the opportunity to reach their full potential and their full promise. We want to understand from first nations leadership how we can make sure that they maximize that potential. We've seen it, for example, in the Nisga'a commu- nity, where their direction of education has led to a significant increase in the number of graduates they've had.

Those are all goals, I'm sure, that we all share, and it's all part of building a new relationship that touches each aspect of government, that includes first nations in that, that recognizes first nations for the contribu- tions they've made in the past and for the contributions they can make in the future. C. James: Thank you for the comments. I just want to follow up with the Prem ier on the area of working across government, because I think that's a very impor- tant part of the success of this document.

If the New Relationship document sits with a minister in a ministry, it's not going to realize its potential with first nations communities in British Columbia. So I certainly agree with the Premier that this ne eds to be looked at across government. I wonder if the Premier could talk a little bit about how that's being implemented on the ground in each of the ministries, whether it's Ministry of Environ- ment, Ministry of Forests or Mining or whether it's Ministry of Education or post-secondary education. How is this document being enacted within those min- istries?

What kind of direction is being given to minis- ters to make sure that they're living up to this docu- ment? Then the next part of that question to the Pre- mier is: who is ultimately responsible for this docu- ment? If first nations communities feel that things aren't being followed up or the government isn't living up to the new relationship, who is ultimately respon- sible for that issue? [1025] Hon. G. Campbell: I'm trying to get this so that it's actually an answer that might be helpful. I think it is important to note, as the Leader of the Opposition has suggested, that this goes right across government.

The lead ministry with regard to this — and it's in fact embodied in the name — is Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. So the minister that is ultimately responsible for the government, for the peo- ple, will be the Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. But it's important to note that in looking at this, it is not the ministry alone that will be doing this. In this regard it's not a stand-alone stovepipe ministry. In fact, this is a major theme for the government. If I stand back for a second, we have two deputy ministers' committees that are set up right now.

One is on natural resources and the economy. The other one is on social development. Ministries report into that to make sure there's integration, and hope fully there's some synergy out of the different ministri es and their actions. The Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation sits on both of those. He's one of the few ministers who sit on both of those. When we look at this, what the Leader of the Op- position will see….

As we move towards the new set of service plans for 2006, you will see references to the core issues with regard to the new relationship re- flected in each of the service plans of each of the minis- tries. Just last week we had a couple of days when we were meeting with the Leadership Council. If we talk about the Leadership Council for a min- ute, the Leadership Council meets on a regular basis — I don't know if it's every other week or every three weeks, but on a regular basis — with the Deputy Min- ister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation and the Deputy Minister to the Premier.

They know that if they have a challenge, they're welcome to call my office at any time. I encourage them to call the minister first and try and solve it, but if they have an issue, I would in- vite them to come and join me. We have a first ministers' meeting coming up at the end of this week. Last week I had the opportunity to meet with all of the members of the Leadership Council to talk about what we thought was going to h a p p e n , w h a t w e c o u l d d o t o g e t h e r , e t c .

T h a t m a y sound superficial, but I think it's important that, as well as formal relationship s, we have informal com- munications and relationships that we build over time. To I give you an idea, when we sat down and tried to go through some of this in terms of the new relation- ship, we looked at all the ministries in the two-day meeting. I wasn't at the meet ing, but we looked at all the ministries. We looked at the core requirements of each ministry to start to build this relationship and build this capacity over time .

I think it's a fair charac- terization to say that I'm sure the Leadership Council was encouraged. Whether they were pleased or not, I'll let them decide. But they we re encouraged by the fact that we were identifying thos e. There was, I think, sig- nificant feedback on that. We are clearly making pro- gress. I've said to the Leadership Council and I'll say to the Leader of the Opposition: this is something that is important to us. We want to have real plans in place that we can move on.

I'll give the Leader of the Opposi- tion some examples: fore st and range agreements, which are a very important part of how we manage our forest industry, and mountain pine beetle. Both of those were dealt with in detail with the Leadership Council — how we would manage those. There will be some changes to those as we move ahead to try and reflect the new relationship.

2070 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 In health. The health ou tcomes and how we actu- ally move forward with the indicators, what the indica- tors are that we'll use to start, where we will go and what we can actually accomplish would be included in that, and first nations will be part of that. In education. Curriculum development — I think there's no question that this is an area where there is significant work that has to be done.

As we move to- wards 2008, which is the 150th anniversary of when British Columbia as a whole colony was brought to- gether, I think it is an opportunity for us to look at what the encounter between European cultures or new cultures and the first nation cultures were, what their history is. I think it's very interesting for us when you think back and think of…. I'll use myself as an example. When I was taught history, I was taught about explorers. I was very sel- dom taught about the first nations people that took the explorers by the hands and told them how to get from A to B.

I think there's a lot of work that has to be done as we build the stories of first nations into our provincial understanding of what our history is and what our future can be. I think that's going to be criti- cal. [1030] Curriculum development, also first nations lan- guage. I think for too long we lost first nations lan- guages, and we shouldn't have. I think it's very diffi- cult to retrieve the ones th at have been lost. But the ones that we have, we have to nurture.

We have to try and find a way that we can enhance them culturally and provide for the long-term sustainability of first nations languages across the province. In tourism, sport and culture. There is an exami- nation of aboriginal and first nations tourism. In sport there is a look at the opportunity that aboriginal and first nations sports may have. When you look at the Olympics…. I know one of the things we're looking at is how we could bring some of the Arctic and north- ern sports to the Olympics as demonstration oppor- tunities.

The Attorney General's office is looking at legislative review and litigative reform that may be required. Legislative review, just to put it on the table, is to look at the legislation we have in place that requires a public servant to do A when the courts have said to the public servant: "No, you must do B." We're trying to get those things reconcile d and brought together. That's a pretty significant project that is underway with the Attorney General. The environmental assessm ent process and how we include first nations in the environmental assessment process.

So that gives some idea of some of the cross- government issues we have. We want to ensure that it meets expectations. I think on e of the challenges is to think that this is going to be easy to do. It's complex; it's multi-layered. I do want to just take a moment to once again recognize that th e true leaders in this and the real bearers of the torch of trust, if you want, are the first nations leaders themselves. As we look at the history of the province — and this is not in any way castin g aspersions on our history or the people that went before us….

I think the history of the province is one where it would not be difficult for first nations leaders to say: "We will not even try to trust." So one of our goals as we go through building the new relationship is to try and re-establish, or maybe establish, some trust for the first time in a long, long time between first nations and our public institu- tions. I should say to the Leader of the Opposition one of the things that I think is most encouraging about this. It's easy for so m e people to s ay it won't work .

I think there is a desire not just on behalf of first nations lead- ership to make this work bu t also on behalf of the pub- lic to make it work. When the public looks at some of the conditions and some of the results that we have, whether it's in health or education, they don't want those gaps to exist either. So I'm hopeful that we will see some significant improvements. Those improvements will be guided by the first nations leadership. My deputy minister and the Dep- uty Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation will continue to meet on a regular basis.

The Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation will have ongoing meetings and dialogue and will…. I can tell the Leader of the Opposition that across government I have said to ministers: "One of the things that you must change, if you haven't done it yet, is to have in your focus how we're going to build a new relationship with first nations and aboriginal people across British Columbia." C. James: Thank you for those comments.

I just want to touch on a couple of the specifics that the Premier mentioned as he was going through the cross-government work and the areas that the govern- ment was exploring with first nations. I appreciate that some of this work is ongoin g and that there aren't an- swers for all of the pieces, but there are a couple of specifics happening right now that, again, seem to con- tradict some of the words in the New Relationship document with the actions of government. One of the pieces to talk a little bit about is the mountain pine beetle.

The Premier mentioned the mountain pine beetle and the need to make sure that first nations had the opportunity to be involved in that process. In fact, we were all fortunate in British Co- lumbia to have first nations leadership come together in Prince George and put together a wonderful docu- ment.

They took the initiati ve themselves to put to- gether their own action plan, their own direction to be able to address the mountain pine beetle and to have their communities directly involved in that. [1035] I just want to ask the Premier: will he be asking the Ministry of Forests to take a look at the $100 million that has already been allocated and look at how that can be reworked with first nations involvement — to look at, for example, year two and year three of the plan they put together? Agai n, I think it's very impor-

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2071 tant to make sure that you're living up to the word — that the Premier and the government are living up to the word of the New Relationship document and how that's impacting on your actions. Hon. G. Campbell: W e h a v e s o m e t h i n g s u n d e r - way that are not completed yet. There was a meeting in Prince George. Both the Minister of Aboriginal Rela- tions and Reconciliation and the Minister of Forests attended the meeting. There was a report that came out of the meeting. It was submi tted to the ministries that work on this.

Ther e are three chiefs — I don't recall their names; I had it last night, and I put it away again — that are involved now as their leadership in doing that. I believe — I'm not certain of this — that resources have been provided for the ongoing development of that plan. The framework for the plan has been laid out. We provided $100,000 to assist in the development of the strategy. I mentioned earlier that we're looking at potential for seconding people from first nations into the government.

We're looking right now at how we can bring someone in from first nations directly to help marshal that plan through government. In terms of the three-year goal, are we willing to look at amending it to reflect the first nations plan? The short answer is: yes, we'r e willing to look. How will that happen? My short answer is: I don't know. But we will certainly do it, and the spirit is exactly as the Leader of the Opposition has suggested. The first na- tions are directly involved. This clearly has significant impact on first nations communities as well as non– first nations communities.

We want the plan, in keep- ing with the spirit of the new relationship. We would like them to know that they'r e going to help drive this. On top of that, there's the $15 million first nations benefits trust that's available to first nations that have been directly impacted by the B.C. Rail investment partnership. So we are trying to build that. That's part, I think, of building institutional capacity not just inside government but outside government in first nations. C. James: Thank you for the comments.

I think it's important that all ministers are aware of these kinds of conversations, because many first nations that we're hearing from — and I'm sure the government is hear- ing from around the province — are very concerned that there seems to be one direction coming from the leadership and the Premier and different directions coming from ministers and ministries.

So I think they will appreciate the comments that the Premier made and will appreciate knowing that they have an oppor- tunity to be able to raise th ose issues as they come up and an opportunity, in fact, to be directly involved in funding and in having first nations people involved in implementing these plans. I think that's a very impor- tant piece. Just to continue on with specifics, I do want to take a moment to talk a little bit about forest and range agreements, because I think the Premier mentioned the fact that the framework for the new relationship was a general document.

It wasn't a signed document; it was a general document. In fact, if you take a look at the document itself, it is very general. It talks about build- ing relationships. It talks about putting together con- sultation mechanisms — all critical, very important work. The one specific in that document is the forest and range agreements. There aren 't specifics in any other area in that document. The on e point that is specific is on forest and range agreemen ts. Premier, why is that specific in there when the rest of the document is gen- eralities? [1040] Hon. G.

Campbell: Forest and range agreements were specifically included in the New Relationship document. They were new agreements that had been brought in over the last coup le of years, and they're a critical

part in terms of providing first nations with both a revenue share and operating areas, as well, for them to carry out their activities in. I think the really important thing as we look at those forest and range agreements — and there were some discussions about them last week, as I under- stand it — is that they are a way of establishing trust between the first nations and the government. It is im- portant, I think, for us to continue to build on those and to recognize how they can be part of creating eco- nomic opportunity for first nations.

First nations have been very clear to us that it's not that they want to stop ec onomic opportunity. They want to be part of economic opportunity. One of the challenges they've said to us that they faced in the past was that they would receive a pile of documents that the government may have been working on for two years and were asked for a response to that pile of documents in two weeks, an d they're not going to do that. There's no reason to ex pect that they should do that, so their obvious answer is no.

One of the things that I think we've tried to do is create not just a renewed sort of look at our land use planning with regard to firs t nations…. But forestry is such a critical part of first nations history and culture and economic future that the forest and range agree- ments were specifically allocated…. I think, actually, it's a g ood sign that they were spe- cifically talked about within the New Relationship document, because it shows that a vehicle that is rela- tively new has some resonance with first nations in terms of its effectiveness.

We want to keep building on that effectiveness as we go ahead and try to include first nations in our resource industries and resource future in British Columbia. C. James: Just to continue on talking about those agreements, in looking at the wording in the New Rela- tionship document where it talk s about a joint working group to review the forest and range agreements, I think that's certainly a positive step. In fact, as the Premier himself said earlier, everything in government needs to be reviewed in light of the New Relationship

2072 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 document — not just forest and range agreements. I think it does raise questions around, again, why this specific issue is in there. But it also talks about making recommendations on options for amending those agreements in order to make them consistent with the vision and principles in the New Relationship document. My question to the Premier would be: are there current problems with the forest and range agreements that this was put in the document to try and address? [1045] Hon. G. Campbell: I apologize to the Leader of the Opposition.

This is taking some time to get this, but I want to try and get it right. In terms of the New Rela- tionship document, the first issue I think we would all understand is that first nations don't want to sign a forest and range agreement today which may be changed for tomorrow in te rms of building that New Relationship document. That's what we'd all expect. There have been some issues that we've dealt with. I think it's the Huu-ay-aht case. In the Huu-ay-aht case, one of the things the judge sa id was that it was not fair or equitable to decide that you're going to allocate re- sources on a per-capita basis.

First nations have come to us and said they think there's got to be a better way of allocating those resources. We've said we recognize that there should be a better way of allocating those resources. What would be a fair way of distributing those resources? We are working with them to do that. Last week there was a major review done of the forest and range agreements to try and see how we could put that framework in place with regard to the resources that are available and how we're moving ahead.

There has been some conclusion reached with regard to that, I think, but first nations will now chat with their legal counsel. Our officials will look at that, and that will come back for approval to the table. When we look at this, th ough, what we're saying is that as we build this and move ahead…. I think the first time the vehicle was introduced was about 2002. There are forest and range agreements with 94 first nations right now. There are about 15 million cubic metres of resources available. There are shared reve- nues of about $107 million, I think, that have been available.

In terms of the new relationship, what we're saying is: "Okay, identify what your challenges are" — I can't give you the inventory; I'm sure the Minister of Abo- riginal Relations and Reconciliation could, with your critic — "and identify what th e issues are." Let's see how we work together to resolve those issues. As we work together to resolve th ose issues, we'll amend and change and alter the existi ng forest and range agree- ments so that we can build on that. [1050] It may well be, as we move forward and build addi- tional capacity, that there will be another generation of forest and range agreements.

I can't foresee that we will stop improving those as we go ahead. I do want to just take a moment to talk about: why forest and range agreements and not all the other things in government? I think, as well, as we build the new relationship, we have accepted with first nations that they have a capacity challenge. How do we meet that? I think we also have to recognize that in govern- ment, there's going to be a capacity problem. This is a very fundamental, if you want, programmatic and pol- icy shift in government, so there is a challenge.

It's not necessarily a challenge with me, but it could be a chal- lenge with me. Let's take, for example, the RAV line in Vancouver. My traditional way that I would look at that was: well, the city is doing that, it's taking place in the city, and they should get on with it, and da-da-da. Da-da-da is something I often think in terms of policy, but you know, let's do that. It takes a bit of a step back to say to yourself: "Hold it.

What are the impacts that it might have on first nations in terms of an environmental as- sessment or something?" Institutionally, I'm sure there are many things and many behaviours in the institution of government, across government, that we're going to have to change. We'll make mistakes. Again, I go back to some of the issues that we've had to deal with over the last six or seven or nine months as we've tried to build this new relationship. My deputy may get a call from a first na- tions leader who says, "What happened to the new relationship?

I thought we we re going to do this," and we'll actually pull back and say: "Yes, that was some- thing that we didn't do the way we'd like to do it, and we'll do it in a different way." I should say that on the other side of the table the same thing has happened, where something has taken place, and we'll say: "Hold it; that's not what we were expecting to happen." They'll say, "Yup, you're right," and they'll change it. I do think there's a lot of back- and-forth on it. I think it's important in terms of the forest and range agreements for us to recognize that there are some things we may have to change.

We're willing to change them, and we're willi ng to change them with the first nations leadership. C. James: Just to continue on with those comments, I appreciate the Premier ta lking about the specifics around the forest and rang e agreements and the chal- lenges there. The reason the questions are raised is that it comes back to my earlier point about making sure that there's consistency across government in these issues, particularly with the new relationship.

As the Premier suggested, we did in fact canvass this issue with the minister of aboriginal affairs as well as the Forests Minister and heard that the forest and range agreements are just fine . I think it comes back to the contradiction and the direction that needs to be given from the leadership to say to all the ministries and the ministers that there's a reason this document is put together, that there's a reason we've set a direction to work with first nations and that that's critical to do. I

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2073 think that's very important for the Premier to pay at- tention to. The Premier mentioned the Huu-ay-aht. That is a case, as the Premier mentioned, that was sent back. The forest and range agreement, in fact, through the court process, was ruled not to have done a good consulta- tion. The government, in fact — and I quote from the court ruling — had "a complete failure of consultation based on the criteria that ar e constitutionally required for meaningful consultation." It's very clear that there was a problem with that case. I just want to be clear.

I heard the Premier say that there's an agreement coming with the Huu-ay-aht. I just wanted to ask the question about whether the gov- ernment is living up to its new relationship and not appealing the court case and going forward in trying to find a solution — or what process and what stage we're at with that court case. [1055] Hon. G. Campbell: I understand that we have an agreement with the Huu-ay-aht.

I also understand that w e a r e c u r r e n t l y i n t h e m i d s t , a s I ' v e m e n t i o n e d , o f developing a new agreement that does things like en- sure that if there is an uplift because of pine beetle or because of some other challenge, first nations are part of that. It's not something we can anticipate today, but it's how we can look at that. Those are some of the is- sues that we're dealing with. I'm hopeful that….

I think, actually, that the dis- cussion has been robust enough that we are going to have an improved agreement that will work for first nations across the province, and we'll continue to pursue that. C. James: I'm pleased to hear that. I'm sure many of the first nations who are working hard right now around concerns with forest and range agreements will also be pleased to hear that government is willing to take a step back, to relook at those agreements and to be able to negotiate them in the spirit of the New Rela- tionship document. We'll be holding the Premier and minister to account for that as well.

Just to close off on this area, and then we'll move to the Premier's office and office budget. The last question on this. The Premier talked about making mistakes and about the fact that, as we go through this, mistakes will b e m a d e a n d w e ' l l h a v e t o t a k e a s t e p b a c k a n d w e ' l l have to start again. I agree with those comments. So I just want to finish off. When we look at the new relationship, I think the naming of the ministry Aboriginal Affairs and Recon- ciliation is a very strong statement about building rela- tionships with first nations.

One of the areas when you talk about reconciliation is acknowledging that mis- takes were made and then rebuilding the relationship. My question to the Premier is to ask about the referen- dum that was brought in, in 2001 — whether he ac- knowledges that it was a mistake and whether he re- grets bringing that referendum in. Hon. G. Campbell: I do think it's important that we acknowledge mistakes. I don't actually believe that the referendum was a mistake. I think it was important to ask British Columbians. I think it was important to include British Columbians in this, what is a significant provincial initiative.

I was asked at the First Nations Summit if I would renounce the referendum, and I said at that point that no, I didn't believe I should . I think the principles are working on behalf of all of us in British Columbia. Having said that, I recognize that many aboriginal leaders still would like me to renounce those. [1100] I do think that the way for us to build this bridge to the future is to make sure that everyone in British Co- lumbia feels part of it. This has always been about building a relationship foundation that is built on mu- tual trust and on principle.

The Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation — it's not Aboriginal Af- fairs anymore; it's Relations and Reconciliation — will continue to pursue that, and I will continue to pursue that with first nations leadership. I think that the really important part of this, as I look to the future, is that we have a past to deal with. We have tried to deal with that as a government. We were the first government to officially apologize to aboriginal and first nations people in British Columbia. We were the first governme nt to introduce real revenue-sharing and forestry opportunities.

We are a government that has reached out to aboriginal people in terms of economic development — literally dozens and dozens of economic de velopment agreements. Just as first nations leaders have tried to be open to the challenges we face in the pr ovince, I've tried, and our government's tried, to be open to the challenges that they face as aboriginal and first nations leaders. I do think that today, particularly…. I should say that I actually do believe th at the first nations leader- ship have made major contributions to the province over the last number of years as we've moved to build a new relationship.

A new relationship doesn't sort of happen because it happens on one day; it happens over a period of time as we go forward to do it. When I look at the five agreements-in-principle that we have, we've made progress with those. I think there's an opportunity for some breakthrough treaties which will be very important. I recognize the frustra- tion that first nations have had in terms of being at the treaty table, too, and that they've invested something like $260 million in their treaty negotiations across the province and have had very little beyond the five agreements-in-principle.

There are many that are very close to resolution. I've had a request from th e first nations leaders who were involved in that to come in and talk to me about what the big hurdles are in terms of moving forward with that. We have 300 indi vidual agreements with first nations in every single part of the province. We have new Treaty 8 agreements with regard to energy development. All of those things are possible, I think,

2074 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 because everyone feels like they're part of this now. I don't think anyone feels that they're excluded. As we move ahead, I'm very hopeful about this week. We have, for the first time in a generation, a first ministers' meeting on aboriginal issues.

Again, it's Brit- ish Columbia's first nations leadership and the first nations leadership of Phil Fontaine, who has really said, unequivocally, to first nations people across the country: "Let us reflect on the fact that multiculturalism in Canada was here well before Europeans or Asian communities or new immigrants came. Multicultural- ism is the first nations mosaic of Canada." He has said quite clearly to them: "We want to lift everyone up." And they've said, as we would say in the province: "We want to do that through education, through health care, through building healthy communities." [S.

Hawkins in the chair.] I think this is going to be a critical time for us to see whether all of us can reach beyond the boundaries we self-impose. There are institutional boundaries that are imposed by the federal government that say at times: "We'll deal with first nations on reserve, but we won't deal with them off reserve." First nations people are first nations people — on or off reserve. There is now an aboriginal leadership that is will- ing to embrace all first nations people as well. The Inuit people….

We don't happen to have many Inuit people in British Columbia, but there are 53,000 Inuit people spread across literally hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of space. How do we deal with the Inuit people as a separate aboriginal group? The Métis peo- ple in British Columbia and from Ontario to the west…. The Métis National Council is looking for ways that we can actually embrace that. I think one of the most important things for those groups is that they touch back with the people that they represent. They all have ways of communicating. With our first nations….

They have at least two refer- enda before they proceed with something. I think that's a healthy thing for them. I believe that what we've done is…. Through what- ever challenges we've faced in the past, we are now ready to deal with some of the challenges we have in the present.

I think by dealin g with those challenges in the present in partnership, with mutual respect, recog- nizing first nations, recognizing their leadership — recognizing, for example, as I go to the first ministers' meeting, first nations leadership will be part of our delegation; they will be part of the activity that takes place with the first ministers. We have to do two things. We have to do things differently. We have to do them openly. We have to do them with respect, and we have to do them based on principle. I believe that we are making real progress in that regard and will continue to. [1105] C.

James: Just to close off on this issue with some comments on the way we star ted this discussion on the new relationship. I think all of us in British Columbia are incredibly fortunate that first nations have been as resilient and as patient as they've been. Whether it's the current times or past times, the first nations people in British Columbia have not been treated well by gov- ernments of every political stripe.

I think it's important for us to acknowledge the fact that for first nations to come back to the table again to deal with something like the new relationship or the regionalization of Chil- dren and Families, when they have not had a good relationship and those words have not been followed through with action…. It real ly gives credit to first na- tions and aboriginal people in our province.

So certainly from the opposition, we'll be working hard to find success in this area, and we'll certainly be watching closely to make sure that the actions follow the words that are here on behalf of aboriginal people across the province. Just to move on to the Premier's office and to the budget for the Premier's office. One of the areas that we have seen in the Premier's own accountability state- ment is a commitment to fiscal management, a com- mitment to transparency and a commitment to ac- countability.

I wonder if the Premier could provide us with the budget, some discussion of the budget for his office, the number of FTEs, and the comparison be- tween last year and this year in those numbers. Hon. G. Campbell: I'm glad to give some general overview, but if the Leader of the Opposition has some specific questions, I'll be glad to answer those too. Estimates for '04-05 were $8.8 million, and this year they're $10.6 million. There are approximately 110 FTEs included in the Premier's office at this point, which includes both the political staff and the public service staff. C.

James: Just to continue on with those numbers, I wonder if the Premier could please respond around why the increase and what th e increase was there for, both in the dollars as well as the FTEs. Hon. G. Campbell: The increase is about $1.8 mil- lion, which is 20 percent. The FTEs have increased by 25. So where have those two things come from? The first is the deputy ministers' policy secretariat, which I announced earlier. We have two deputy ministers' committees.

One is on social development, and the other is on natural resources and the economy. [1110] One of the things that we decided to do as we moved into this second term was try and provide more integrative services across government. We have a number of excellent people in the public service. As kind of an experiment in 2004, we had brought people from different ministries into a policy secretariat. They had been effectively taken away from the ministries and put into the policy secretariat. We felt it would be better to provide not just a growth opportunity for those people but also to provide the opportunities for

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2075 those ministries to properly backfill those people who were coming in to deal with specific projects. There's approximately $1.5 million for the half-year of this year, and it's about $2.4 million a year going forward. There are 19 people involved in that. We also have in the Premier's office $300,000 for communica- tions. There are six new FTEs in place to deal with that. C.

James: Just continuing on, one of the other shifts that occurred when we took a look at last year versus this year around the Premier' s office, of course, is the transfer of the public affair s bureau from the Premier's office to the Finance office. One of the areas the Finance Minister talked about at her first press conference was that the office had been transferred, so the public affairs bureau had been transferred over from the Pr emier's office to Finance, but the actual budget didn't transfer over until '05-06. In other words, the budget stayed, but the responsibil- ity was transferred over.

I wondered what rationale there was for doing it that way. Why was the public affairs bureau transferred bu t not the budget to follow with it in '04-05? Hon. G. Campbell: This is two estimates back, but let me go back to this. When we did the transfer, it was identified that we were doing it. We were reducing the workload of the Premier's office. We put it directly into the Finance Minister's office. I'd refer the Leader of the Opposition to page 24 of the supplementary

schedule of accounts, which covers off how this transition took place. The Minister of Finance pointed this out, as well, last June. On September 9, 2004, the Premier an- nounced that the ministry responsibility of the public affairs bureau was being transferred. It's not unusual to transfer responsibilities. The budget was then mana ged by the Ministry of Finance. It was something that was kept on the books. The Minister of Finance assumed responsibility for the office, including administration and spending deci- sions.

However, as the formal budget transfer of the public affairs to the Ministry of Finance did not occur until '05-06 estimates, the disclosure of the 2004-2005 appropriation related to spending is reflected in the figure of the Office of the Premier back for '04-05 situa- tion. We moved it, frankly, to reduce the workload of the Premier's office. It is clearly the responsibility of the Minister of Fi- nance from September on. It is now the responsibility of the Minister of Finance. I know that the public affairs bureau was canvassed during her estimates.

I'm not sure if her estimates are complete, but during when she was in estimates. C. James: Just to talk a little bit about the other shift in the Premier's office, and we'll get into the budget numbers as well around this, which is the creation of the new issues management area in the Premier's of- fice. This is a new area, and I wondered what the dif- ference is between this new communications area in the Premier's office and the public affairs bureau that has been moved to the Minist ry of Finance.

What's the difference, and why was it necessary to set up another communications team in the Premier's office when you'd moved the communications team over to Finance? [1115] Hon. G. Campbell: Issues management is not a new function in the Premier's office. It has been in the Premier's office in the past. It doesn't take the place of communications. There are communications people in the Premier's office, but they're not necessarily issues management. The Premier's office does not have com- munications support from PAB as do other ministries.

PAB is a governmentwide coordinative body and has a coordinating function in terms of communication. Issues management is clearly there to help the Pre- mier deal with the variety of issues that may come up on any given day — from avian flu to softwood lumber to what's happening in health care to what we are do- ing in education, etc. — that come on a sort of immedi- ate basis. They're not a policy development tool. They're actually a way of the Premier being kept in- formed about what the issues of the day are and being provided with information so that if I'm required to respond, I am able to respond. C.

James: Just continuing on in that vein, recogniz- ing that for the Premier, for this decision to be made, it was a new budget allocation, a new decision for this budget year. So while it may have been there previ- ously, it was a new allocation, a new structure, for the Premier to put in place. I guess my question, continu- ing on, is: what changed from l a s t y e a r t o t h i s y e a r where there wasn't previously an issues management team?

The Premier had the public affairs bureau in his office and, I'm presuming, had communications sup- port of some kind or another in the office without hav- ing the issues management team. I'm presuming there was some kind of communications support to the Pre- mier. What was wrong with the…? What needed to be changed from the previous communications structure that was there, provided to the Premier last year, to after the election when the new unit was put in place, the new dollars that were allocated to that, and how has that benefited? Hon. G.

Campbell: Just so there's no confusion in terms of what we're talking about, maybe I can take a moment. The organization of the Premier's office is on the website, so you can pull that down. But you know, I have a press secretary. His name is Mike — well, it doesn't matter what his name is. I have a press secre- tary — right? I have a chief of staff, and under the chief of staff, there's a deputy for issues management, a di- rector of issues management, and that director of issues management is there to keep me informed of what's taking place on a daily basis. There has been an expans ion in budget.

There's no question about it. I don't mean to be glib about this, but

2076 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 what's changed is that there seems to be a lot more people in opposition than there were in the past, and there are a lot more issues that I have to be able to deal with than there were in the past. That's clearly one of the things that changed, and I'm upfront about that. Issues management was always there. There are other activities that are ta king place in the Premier's o f f i c e t h a t h a v e r e q u i r e d t he additional people. You'll see that there is a deputy chief of staff for communica- tions and research in the office at this point.

They help with things like the Premier' s speeches. They help with things like media monitoring . They help with things like legislative support. So that's there. We also have a deputy chief of staff who's an execu- tive assistant and a deputy chief of staff for policy co- ordination issues management. So again, there's a dep- uty for issues management, there's a director of issues management, and there are two…. The titles are senior coordinators for issues management. It's a seven-day-a- week challenge that they're dealing with. [1120] C.

James: Just so I'm clear, the total number of FTEs within that issues management team is four? Or is that the total number of senior staff within that area? Just so we can continue on in this area, what is the total budget for that issues management — the number of FTEs and the total budget for this area? Hon. G. Campbell: The total number of people that are in issues management is four. The budget is part of the overall budget, and with public accounts you can look back and see what the individuals are — what their remuneration is. So th ere was an addition of two in terms of issues management.

There were two that were added to issues management specifically, and the issues management team is four. C. James: J u s t a f i n a l q u e s t i o n a r o u n d t h i s p i e c e , which is again related to the change, and I appreciate the fact that there are now 33 people on this side of the Legislature. I guess we're flattered as an opposition that we now have an entire issues management team to be responsible for all of us 33 MLAs. But I'd ask the question ag ain of the Premier.

Previ- ously, as the Premier mentioned, there was some sen- ior responsibility for issues management directly by the Premier, which is understandable, but was that responsibility not done previously by the public affairs bureau? What was the ration ale around putting in a separate team and not having the public affairs bureau responsible for this issue? Hon. G. Campbell: When PAB moved to Finance, there was no impact with regard to issues management in the Premier's office. Th ere was an issues manage- ment team. There were two people. Now there are four. PAB is not an issues management function.

The issues management done out of the Premier's office is done by my issues management team. PAB has a coordinative and communications func- tion across government. They may well be involved in terms of the communications officers, informing the media of various facts, or whatever, but they were never an issues management team for the Premier's office. C. James: So just to focus, then, a little bit on the senior staff in the Premier's office and to talk a little bit about responsibility areas….

Just to touch on the key senior staff that were announced by the Premier in June, I'd like to start off firs t with the Deputy Minister to the Premier and Cabinet Secretary and ask: what are the responsibilities for that position, their role, what committees do they serve on, and who do they report to? [1125] Hon. G. Campbell: Maybe I can just anticipate a little where you might go. The Deputy Minister to the Premier and the cabinet secretary, as I introduced her yesterday, is Jessica McDonald. She reports directly to me. She is responsible, and she is head of the public service.

She's an adviser to me on, to be blunt, any is- sues that she decides to advise me on and any that I decide to ask her about. She supports cabinet in its decision-making. She has a responsibility for the two deputy ministers for strategic policy on natural resources and the economy and the deputy minister of strategic policy on social development. She also has responsible for the deputy ministers council, so she's the chair of the deputy min- ister's council, which is all of the deputy ministers. She is responsible for holding deputy ministers to account for their service plans.

Service plans, I think you'll see, will cascade down through levels of specificity, but each service plan will include some reference to the five great goals and some reference to some of the themes we've talked about over the last couple of days. She is responsible for assuri ng that that is carried through and that the public service is carried through. She's also responsible for a major initiative that the government is undertaking which is really a….

I don't want to call it renewal, but it's recognized that the pub- lic service is aging, and how are we going to deal with the transition of this public workforce, as we lose an awful lot of benefits from people who have been here for a long time and we bring new people in? So the revitalization of the public service, if you want — the repositioning of the public service…. I know that I personally think that public service is an exceptional calling for people. We want that to be attractive to young people across the province.

We want to be sure that it's a place where people can feel comfortable coming, and if they decide to leave and come back, those are all things that are part of her re- sponsibility. So as the Deputy Minist er to the Premier and the cabinet secretary, that deputy minister has a significant role in assuring that the province carries on with its

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2077 leadership and the progress th at we've seen in the last number of years. C. James: Continuing on in taking a look at the sen- ior staff positions. The deputy ministers for strategic policy and social development — similar kinds of ques- tions: what's their role, who are they reporting to, and what are they responsible for? Hon. G.

Campbell: The deputy minister for strate- gic policy and social development is a new deputy po- sition, and it reflects my concern as we made the transi- tion into a second term of government that we had to do a better job of integration across governments. I think there is a natural tendency for ministers to start to slowly narrow their scope of activity. When they're first appointed to a ministry — and I think I under- stand it — they're very open in terms of what the gov- ernment is trying to do.

Because of their day-to-day activities, because of the issu es that they have to deal with, it doesn't take long before they start to shrink down and try to deal with just the problems that they've got on a daily basis. So the deputy minister for strategic policy and so- cial development coordinates government priorities related to social development. We talked yesterday about cross-ministry initiatives. Let me give an exam- ple: fetal alcohol syndrome disorder. We're trying to bring that together. We recognize that there might be activities taking place in Education, Health, Commu- nity Services, etc.

The deputy minister's challenge is to create what I called — I'm not sure if it was this morn- ing or yesterday — open-border government, where there's free flow of informat ion, where we keep track. It's the whole government that is trying to accomplish these goals. The deputy minister for social development chairs the deputy minister's social development committee, which are the prime deputy ministers that you would think of under social development — Education, Health, Community Services. There's a list.

I'll forget some if I don't mention them. [1130] He recommends social development policy, legisla- tion, coordinates activities through the deputy minis- ter's committee and the public service towards the Government Caucus Committee on Social Develop- ment. He works with DMs and ministers in social de- velopment to provide advice generally speaking, and he supervises any policy secretariat activities that may take place with regard to social development.

I think he also works to chair what we call the Strong Start com- mittee, which is looking at children across the spec- trum in British Columbia — health, education, child- hood development, aboriginal relations and reconcilia- tion, etc. C. James: Continuing on, the deputy ministers for strategic policy, natural resources and the economy. Again, to the Premier: what is their role, who do they report to, and what committees are they sitting on? Hon. G.

Campbell: The deputy minister of strategic policy for social development and the deputy minister of strategic policy for natural resources and economy report to the Deputy Minist er to the Premier. Really, the natural resources and economy deputy minister has a similar parallel function in some ways to what I mentioned earlier with social development. She chairs the deputy ministers' council on natural resources. Cross-government issues — she reports and brings reports to the government caucus committee.

Natural resources and the economy — she is a critical part of directing the policy developmen t secretariat in areas of that nature. When you look across government, you'll see that there are ministries that we've tried to put as account- able for specific areas, but there are a number of minis- tries that are included. She may coordinate that. So it's a very similar role, and she, too, reports to the Deputy Minister to the Premier. C. James: The other senior staff person that the Premier talked about is Ken Dobell — similar kinds of questions.

Again, to the Prem ier: what is his role, who does he report to, and what kinds of responsibilities are in his area? Hon. G. Campbell: Mr. Dobell is a senior adviser to the Premier. He is on contract. He is not part of the organization. He will take on tasks that we refer to him. For example, he was one of the people that was involved in the Prince Rupert port activities with the federal government. He was a major player in terms of trying to coordinate the Pacific gateway initiative that we tried to get the federal government to agree to, which is a national strategy on op ening transportation gate- ways.

We wanted to focus and actually lead with the Pacific gateway, so Mr. Dobell worked directly with the Prime Minister's Office, the Minister of Transportation, the Minister of Industry, etc. in trying to form that. I think the Leader of the Opposition would know that Mr. Dobell was asked — and this is, I think, how you can distinguish this — separately to act on behalf of the federal government in looking at the port chal- lenges that we faced in the summer. That was a sepa- rate contract that he asked permission from us if it was all right if he carried out, and we did give him permis- sion to do that.

He has acted as a liaison on softwood. He has been an industry, government, in tergovernmental relations liaison on softwood. He has a contract that pays at a rate of $250 an hour and has a maximum upside of $230,000, including fees and expenses. [1135] I did want to mention one other person that I con- sider to be a senior policy adviser to the Premier who is mentioned in our organization chart, and that's Allen Edzerza, who's the special ad viser on first nations is- sues. He was appointed as a special adviser on aborigi- nal issues in April of 2005. He does report directly to my deputy minister again.

He advises me on strategic issues of importance to the government, particularly

2078 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 with regard to the new relationship and first nations. He assists the government and first nations on building new approaches. He liaises with aboriginal organiza- tions on behalf of the government to try and build mu- tual respect, and he works across all ministries to pro- vide guidance, in terms of what we were talking about earlier. Those would be the senior-level people that are…. Mr. Edzerza is part of the government. Mr. Dobell, as I mentioned earlier, is on contract. C.

James: Just continuing on in that area, I'd like to ask the Premier: why a contract rather than an em- ployee? Why was the decision made to look at con- tract? As well, what was the cost of the yearly salary before Mr. Dobell was moved onto contract? I appreci- ate that I've got the information now about the maxi- mum cost of the contract. What was his salary last year, before he was moved onto contract? Hon. G. Campbell: Mr. Dobell's salary when he was Deputy Minister to the Premier was $203,000. Mr. Dobell retired. When Mr.

Dobell retired and said he wanted to leave the public service — we ask people to serve; he had spent four years here in the public ser- vice, and he was clear with me that he would like to retire — I said to him that I would like to have the benefit of his advice on various things as they came up. We have come up with a contract which will allow us to take advantage of that advice should it be needed. C. James: Just continuing on, the Premier men- tioned some of the areas that Mr.

Dobell was working on which certainly seem to me to be very key to gov- ernment, very key to the people of British Columbia — whether it's the teachers disp ute, whether it's the soft- wood lumber, whether it's the port. These are very key responsibilities, and I'd like the Premier to talk a little bit about accountability. Who does Mr. Dobell report to? How does the Premier ensure that there is accountability for someone who is no longer a public servant but is, in fact, work- ing on contract?

Then the last piece in this set of ques- tions is to ask: how does th e Premier ensure that there aren't conflicts of interest around contracts that Mr. Dobell may do, separate and apart from the govern- ment contracts? The Premier mentioned one area; he was working with the federal government. There are often conflicts between the position of the federal government and the position of the province on a whole range of issues. So to the Premier: how does he ensure that there aren't conflicts there for the people of British Columbia? Hon. G. Campbell: I think one of the important points to note here is that Mr.

Dobell reports to me. He provides me with advice. He would not be engaged in a contract in terms of providing that advice without the minister knowing that I was asking Mr. Dobell to be a part of that. For example, with softwood, the Minister of Forests drives the softwood file. Mr. Dobell may act on behalf of the government in working with ministry officials, etc. He'd work with the Deputy Minister of Forests in terms of looking at what the policy options are.

He is truly providing us with a bridging opportunity there. [1140] In terms of the whole rang e of issues that I talked about, I think it's fair to say that in all of those, Mr. Do- bell does not have line responsibility. He does provide advice to me, to a minister, to a deputy, and we take advantage of the expertise that he's built over his years of public service. He strictly advises me. Before he takes an outside contract, there is a requirement in his contract that he must check with my deputy minister to see if we see any conflict of interest.

He would do that, I think, without hesitancy, and we give him our advice. He would not take a contract that we didn't agree with. I f h e t a k e s a c o n t r a c t o n , i t w o u l d b e o n e t h a t w e d i d agree with. In terms of the actions of government, the ministers and the deputy ministers are directly accountable to me. When I feel that Mr. Do bell's advice is not adding value, I'll stop asking for th e advice. That's, I guess, the accountability he has to government. C.

James: A final question around this area is about the issue of the contract itself and the terms and condi- tions of that contract. I wonder if the Premier could provide a little information for taxpayers on the terms and conditions of the contract. How will the Premier make those decisions around the fact that he doesn't need or want the advice or feel it useful anymore? What are the terms and condit ions within that contract to allow the Premier to close off that contract? Back in June we had a press release that talked about Mr. Dobell only working part-time, on contract.

Just so I'm clear with my numbers, the Premier men- tioned that the previous full-year salary for Mr. Dobell was $209,000, and the current part-time contract is up to $230,000. Hon. G. Campbell: Mr. Dobell is working part- time, if you want. His contract provides for part of his time being provided; he's not working full-time. He will have an hourly rate. His contract is for $230,000, which includes expenses and travel — just so we're clear about that. At the end of the year the public accounts will be clear about what Dobell consulting services receives in terms of the contract that Mr.

Dobell has signed with us. That contract can be received from FOI. In terms of that, the reason I say it can be received with FOI is that there may be proprietary information that should be severed, but the contract has been requested by FOI and has been provided under FOI, so it's available. C. James: Moving on, then, to the whole area of cabinet and the workings of cabinet and a little bit of discussion on that. One of the areas that the Premier talked about proudly in th e first term was the whole

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2079 area of open cabinet meetin gs and the success of open cabinet meetings, the opportunity to be open and transparent with the public . My question to the Pre- mier is: what happened to open cabinet meetings? What would be the Premier' s assessment of those open cabinet meetings in the first term? [1145] Hon. G. Campbell: The Leader of the Opposition is correct. I don't think we've had an open cabinet meet- ing since last January. It might have been February — but January or February. We will continue to have open cabinet meetings.

We won't have them necessarily on a monthly basis, but we'll continue to have open cabinet meetings. Open cabinet meetings will continue to be places where we discuss parks and protected areas, where we might discuss treaties and the opportunities that they present. As we move into the new year, open cabinet meetings may also include areas like ministerial service plans that will be provided, and there will be other decisions that will be coming forward. We've clearly been, over the last number of months, in a period of transition, but I think open cabinet meet- ings actually worked.

The public has told us that they've received information from them, and we'll con- tinue to have them. C. James: Back to the Premier again. How does the Premier and how does cabinet make decisions about what issues go to open ca binet meetings? The Premier mentioned the environment and trees would be dis- cussed at open cabinet meetin gs, but I think the public would be interested in knowing what kinds of issues will be talked about there. So I think my question is: what kinds of issues are determined for open cabinet meetings?

My next question to the Premier is: how often will those open cabinet meetings be held, and what are the costs of each of those open cabinet meetings? Hon. G. Campbell: I'm sorry for my little laugh there. I'm not sure if you heard me, or if I didn't say this properly: it's parks an d protected areas and trea- ties, not trees. However, if you feel trees would be good for open cabinet, we're glad to talk about them. There's the cedar and the Douglas fir. So I apologize if I didn't articulate that very well. Parks and protected areas and changes in that. We committed that those would be held in open cabinet.

Treaties will be held in op en cabinet. Those decisions will be made in open cabinet. There are other areas that we will take forward to open cabinet. I think, for ex- ample, there's a significant public interest in health care and what the strategies are around health care. There will be opportunities to talk about ActNow and how w e h o p e t o d o t h a t a c r o s s g o v e r n m e n t . S o m e o f t h e cross-government initiatives may well be taken to open cabinet. I'm not going to commit, at this point, that we will have monthly open cabinet meetings.

I don't think that is as required as having substantive agenda items in open cabinet. Major financial updates are often given in open cabinet as well, so that not just the immediate vicinity can hear about it, but it's available for the pub- lic at large. C. James: Just a final question around the open cabinet issue. The Premier's talked about some pub- lic interest issues that would go in open cabinet. Cer- tainly, I think the public ha s interest in most issues that are going on.

So my final question, again, is: who makes the determination around what agenda items are on open cabinet and, again, just the end of my previous question: what's the cost of each open cabinet meeting? [1150] Hon. G. Campbell: I'll let you know exactly what the budgeted cost is. I don't have an answer for that. I do want to be clear on who decides what's on the cabinet agenda. The Premier decides what goes on the cabinet agenda, whether it's the regular cabinet agenda or the open cabinet agenda. It's one of the most fun decisions I get to make all week. C.

James: You'll get back to us with the total cost and the cost per meeting? I think if we can get that in- formation…. I know we're getting close to time. I just want to touch on the freedom-of-information area before we wrap up here. Again, as I talked about, back in 2001 one of the commitments with open cabinets from the Liberal government was to be the most open and accountable government in Canada. That was a clear statement made by the Premier, and then again, as we've talked about through these entire estimates, we often didn't see the actions matching the words.

So we saw the FOI budget cut by 35 percent over three years. We saw in 2002 two sets of amendments which weakened FOI legislation. In fact, it gave public bodies more time to respond, increased fees — huge pressure that many organizat ions are facing in putting in FOI requests. Now here we are in 2005, and we hear through media reports that the government is actually considering a new set of exemptions for the FOI laws. So my question to the Premie r is: why and what is the government looking at in the area of FOI and the laws around freedom of information? Hon. G.

Campbell: FOI is under the Minister of Labour and Citizens' Servic es, and his estimates will come up today. I think last night we were told not to talk about the potential for future legislation, so I don't intend to do that, but I do intend to point out at least some facts. There's been a 12-percen t increase in the FOI budget between 2000 and 2005-2006. There is no differ- ence in terms of policy from what it was under the pre- vious government. We've added 19 bodies to the act. We've required all public bodies to conduct privacy

2080 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 impact assessment for new legislation programs and systems. We have extended privacy protection to in- clude personal information. We've posted a personal information directory. We've simplified the process for adding public bodies, and we've brought in a require- ment that the act be reviewed by an all-party commit- tee of the Legislature every six years.

I do think it's important to note with regard to the budget under FOI that the commissioner has every opportunity to come and speak before Public Accounts and advocate for budget increases if he feels that that's appropriate. I do think it's also important to note that between 2001 and 2005 we've seen a 12-percent budget increase. C. James: J u s t t o g i v e s o m e e x a m p l e s o f t h e c h a l - lenges that are being faced right now with FOI…. Thank you to the Premier for his comments, but the budget numbers are clear.

There may have been an increase in the budget based on a decrease over the last three years of 35 percent. If we take a look at the num- ber of groups and organizations that have been re- questing information, it's clear that there are chal- lenges. So I would ask a ques tion of the Premier: does the Premier believe that the current wait times and the current fees that are in place for freedom of informa- tion, for people to make requests, are fair and reason- able? Hon. G. Campbell: I think in terms of the detail, I would encourage the Leader of the Opposition to canvass that during the estimates this afternoon.

But let me just say that any applicant can appeal if they feel that their application has been handled inap- propriately. All requests are unique under freedom of information and privacy. Many requests are com- plex, third-party requests. We have to protect that information. The previous government was criticized, in fact, for continuing delays. We've tried to improve on that, and it is important to note that at least we've had fewer complaints, at least, under this government than the previous government.

Our goal is to eliminate com- plaints, but I think that it is a pretty lofty ambition when you're talking about something that is as dis- persed and differentiated as this. [1155] A s w e m o v e a h e a d , w e ' d l i k e t o i m p r o v e t h i s . W e certainly want to improve transparency. I am pleased to say that the government has been not just noticed but recognized across the country for the openness of, for example, our financial re porting.

Auditors General across the country have talked about British Columbia being the first jurisdiction where we have provided for generally accepted accounting principles. We've done that in a way that makes our accounts more accessible to the public. I agree that we want to be open and transparent. The Freedom of Information and Protec- tion of Privacy Act is one way that we're doing that. There are a number of other ways that we're doing that as well. We will continue to work on that as we move forward.

We welcome the comments of the all-party legislative committee on how we can improve the act, and we'll continue to work together to try and make sure that happens. C. James: One more question, Madam Chair, just to continue on the area. I apprec iate the specific questions to freedom of information. We will canvass it this af- ternoon, and I think there is an opportunity to do that. The Premier talked about receiving fewer com- plaints.

There are some very specific complaints that have come in under freedom of information, and I think it does relate to the Premier's statement and goal around being open and transparent. F o r e x a m p l e , i f w e t a k e a l o o k a t t h e C a n a d i a n Taxpayers Federation, they said that new to them, they have extensions for filing requests. They have increased user fees, and they believe all of these are contrary to the intent of the legislation.

I under- stand that the Premier doesn't want to speak spe- cifically to changes that may or may not be coming up, but I'll come back to my question around open- ness and transparency in government and ask the Premier whether he feels the current FOI system provides an opportunity fo r openness, transparency and reasonableness for people who are putting in their requests. Hon. G. Campbell: I continue to believe that openness and transparency ar e important. I continue to believe that freedom of information and protec- tion of privacy are important.

I think, frankly, the all-party committee should be looking at how we can make improvements. I think the Canadian Tax- payers, for want of a better term, would surely want us to make sure we were meeting our full financial obligations with regard to their requests. They would ask that of other groups, and I'm assuming they would have the same principles they would apply to themselves. I do think it's important for us, though, to recog- nize that there are always going to be challenges with this. We want to be sure that we improve with regard to this, and the goals that we set are there.

We want to be the most open and transparent gov- ernment in Canada. There are ways we can improve upon that. We will work to improve upon that. We will work with the all-party committee of the Legis- lature to improve that. Madam Chair, if I can, just for one sec I'd like to say that I think the discussions we've had over the last couple of days have been worthwhile. I would invite the leader and, through the leader, her critics to look at the work that is going to be done over the next number of months in laying out the strategic plans that were put in place by the various ministries.

One of our goals — the leader mentioned this; it's a goal that I share — is for us to have common public understanding of where we're going, why we're going there and how we're going to measure whether we're making progress or not. I would invite — a s part of this proces s as we

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2081 move to improve service plans, improve accountability, improve openness for the pub lic about the various is- sues that we deal with in government — the opposition critics and the leader herself to come forward with their recommendations for th e measurements that we would use as we go ahead in the various ministries. I wanted to thank the leader. I asked the Leader of the Opposition to send me her initial thoughts on how we might pursue the five great goals that government has established.

I appreciate the fact that she's taken the time to return that information to me. It will be in- cluded in the work that we do.

I would hope that as we move through estimates in the years ahead, we can continually work to look at where we'll measure, how we'll measure, what are the best measures, what we can actually have an impact on, what decisions we have some control over and which ones we don't have — so that we can try and make sure that British Co- lumbians benefit from this. [1200] The new generation of service plans that I hope will be coming forward in the next budget are intended to try and not just provide the opposition with an idea of where we're going and how we hope to get there but also the public.

I'm hopeful that we can continue to improve on the openness and transparency of govern- ment. I'm hoping we can continue to improve in educa- tion and in health care. We want to continue to im- prove and provide additional supports for seniors and children and people with special needs. We want to be recognized for our environmental sustainability and the way that we manage our environment and our economy, and we want to have an economy that keeps on thriving. Those are the goals of government. I believe they are shared goals of British Columbians. Vote 8: Office of the Premier, $10,664,000 — ap- proved. Hon. G.

Campbell: I move the committee rise, re- port resolution and ask leave to sit again. Motion approved. The committee rose at 12:01 p.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported resolution, was granted leave to sit again. Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported resolution, was granted leave to sit again. Hon. G. Abbott moved adjournment of the House. Motion approved. Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until two o'clock this afternoon. The House adjourned at 12:02 p.m.

PROCEEDINGS IN THE DOUGLAS FIR ROOM Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF EDUCATION AND MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR EARLY LEARNING AND LITERACY (continued) The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); H. Bloy in the chair. The committee met at 10:09 a.m. On Vote 23: ministry operations, $5,073,905,000 (continued). Hon. S. Bond: Two very quick items. I know we're pressed for time today.

With me today I have a number of my staff members, and I wanted to just quickly in- troduce them: Emery Dosda ll, my deputy minister; Ruth Wittenberg, assistant deputy minister; Keith Miller, a lead director in the funding department; Rick Davis, superintendent of the liaison department; Clau- dia Roch, lead director in the accountability depart- ment; and Monica Pamer, who is the lead director in achievement and assessment. [1010] Also, at the last session of estimates we had a num- ber of outstanding questions left by members opposite.

We agreed to provide answer s and information, so this morning, rather than listing each of the items, I will simply say that the majority of those issues have been addressed. I have a binder for the member opposite with the information that he requested. If at that point there are still gaps in it, we would be happy to provide that. The binder is here. I would just ask that this in- formation be provided, as requested, and I would be happy to fill in any gaps, as they are discovered. A. Dix: Good morning to the minister.

I have a question about a school in my constituency, Grenfell School, which is seeking a minor capital improvement. It's an extraordinary school . The minister will know because she visits schools many times that this is a re- markable place. I think as many as 40 heritage lan- guages are spoken at home by the students. The teachers and the principal and the parents do a remarkable job of making it a terrific learning envi- ronment, but they just have a space crisis in the school. The children eat lunches in shifts — three shifts over the lunch hour — because there's no room to eat.

There are classrooms in former st orage lockers in the school. All of the space is compromised. They need a minor

2082 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 capital project to add a second floor to a series of classes that were added in 2003-2004. This is a project that's been strongly supported by successive MLAs. Rob Nijjar, the former MLA, sup- ported this project, and I support it passionately. It's important for the school — what they're achieving, the progress they're making. The test progress they're mak- ing, the work they do in multiple languages, the work they do in the community…. This is fundamental to the school being able to continue to work in that way.

I just want to ask the minister to look into that pro- ject. It's been on the list of projects, and there are some issues that I think the ministry has raised about it. I would like to ask the minister about it. Hon. S. Bond: I'm sorry. Neither my staff nor I ac- tually heard the exact name. It sounds like a wonderful place, and I'd love to know more about it. The name would help me. A. Dix: It is Grenfell Elementary School. That's G-r- e-n-f-e-l-l. Hon. S. Bond: School districts do provide to the ministry a list of their highes t priorities for the projects that are important, through th eir district.

In looking at the school districts capital plan that we have in front of us, that school is actually not even on the list that's provided by the Vancouver school board. We certainly would be more than prepared to con- tact the school board to ask where that might be on their priority list, and we'd be happy to just have a dis- cussion about that. But we'd urge the member opposite to do that, because we think it may be in the years out as well. It certainly isn't on the '06-07 capital

summary plan that I have. A. Dix: I believe it has been in successive capital plans. It hasn't been accepted by the ministry. I think there are some issues. The mi nistry, as I understand it, raised issues about the fact there was space at other schools within the broad east side of Vancouver. As the minister will know, the east side of Vancouver, for his- toric reasons, has been underrepresented in terms of schools and services for a long time. So this is an im- portant question, certainly, for parents there, and they've been working very hard.

The former member for Vancouver-Kingsway pre- sented a petition to the minister last year, and so I really just appreciate the minister following up and working on that. It's an ongoing project for all of us. If she gets a chance at some point in the future to visit that school, I think she'll be remarkably impressed by the work that everyone does there. [1015] I have a few questions. The minister will know that I u s e d t o w o r k f o r a n a d v o c a c y g r o u p i n e d u c a t i o n called Canadian Parents for French.

We've been through a period in the last few years of extraordinary growth in programs of choi ce, but particularly French immersion, and in parts of the province that are out- side the lower mainland. I think some people get confused about the desire of parents to have their ch ildren learn languages. In fact, we see the fastest-growing districts in the prov- ince in terms of French immersion, in terms of learn- ing second languages, are districts such as Salmon Arm, Quesnel and Coast Mountains.

There is an enormous desire, particularly in resource towns where parents understand that their children are probably going to require different skills going for- ward in order to succeed in life. There is enormous demand for these programs. I have a couple of specific questions for the minis- ter. The first question is this. I understand from the Premier — in fact, yesterday — that a new agreement has been signed with the federal government. I'm wondering if the minister could briefly describe that agreement. Hon. S.

Bond: Just to conclude the comment about the capital project update, I'll have one of my staff members, who is excellent on the capital side, contact the member opposite about the project in particular. The member opposite is absolutely correct. We re- cently have signed a bilateral agreement with the gov- ernment of Canada for increased funding. It totals in excess of $60 million. From th e perspective of growth, it is a very good news story.

In fact, where the rest of our enrolment is declining across British Columbia, French immersion is actually growing at a rate of about 5 percent in many parts of the province — absolutely. The renewed protocol will bring the $60 million to British Columbia, which will then allow districts to consider expansion or new programs. To the member opposite: the money simply comes through our budget but goes directly out to those school districts. So all those dollars will be going out and, hopefully, will ad- dress some of the challenges in increased enrolment. A.

Dix: I had a specific ques tion about the funding formula, though. One of the big challenges, I think, for establishing new programs…. The minister will know this from the school district she used to represent — the school district of Prince George — where, in fact, outstanding programs are offered in Prince George, but there has been a really strong effort to try and offer programs in the town of Ma ckenzie, which ultimately hasn't succeeded up to now.

Part of it is that the challenges, the economies, are much more difficult in smaller communities in terms of improving programs — not just for French immersion but for core French. Remember that the majority of students…. There are 220,000 students in the province studying core French who aren't in French immersion programs. I would argue that the quality of that education has, in fact, declined over the last few years — not just the last five years but over time. It's been declining partly because teachers leave that to go to the French immersion system and respond to that — elementary

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2083 teachers, in particular, want their own classrooms — but also because we haven't applied resources to that. It's mandatory to have a second language between grade five and grade eight, but that experience at grade five is rarely with a teacher who speaks the language. The initial experience most people have in the province learning a second or third language in the public school system is not a positive experience.

I think part of the work that we hope to see the minister do with the new money is to respond to that. [1020] In terms of the funding formula where you send the money out to school districts, essentially, it's done on a formula based on 14 categories. There is a small inequity in that formula with respect to immersion that I just want to ask about, and I want the minister to con- sider. School districts that have multiple communities within their districts with French immersion pro- grams….

I'm talking specifically about Coast Moun- tains, which has Hazelton, Kitimat and Terrace; about Nechako, which has Vanderhoof and Burns Lake, I believe; and Williams Lake, which has Williams Lake and 100 Mile House. They're operating separate French immersion programs in all these communities. The fact that there is a program in H azelton doesn't help in any way — in terms of economies of scale — with the fact that you have a program in Terrace.

I think those districts — and perhaps Prince George, if a program were to be offered in Mackenzie — should be treated, for the purposes of the flat item of the funding formula, as being several districts. In other words, if you have a flat item for library or for learning assistance in a French immersion program and you get $9,000 for it for the district, if you've got multiple communities a certain distance apart, I think that that should be reflected in the funding formula. As you make the change in this funding formula going forward with the new agreement, you should consider that.

The places where these prog rams will be at risk are places such as Hazelton, 100 Mile and Williams Lake — places where there is a de clining student population over time. When you have a program going K-to-12, at the back end of the progra m the declining population of a town like Terrace or a school district like Coast Mountains really affec

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1122am-06
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1122am 06
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	99bc08c6ded0102655587e03e7f8d10d532a6c4b

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