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September 16, 2010

39th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2010-Sep-16 (PDF)

L044 - Thu 16 Sep 2010 / Jeu 16 sep 2010

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 16 September 2010 Jeudi 16 septembre 2010

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CHILDREN’S ACTIVITY

TAX CREDIT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LE CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

POUR LES ACTIVITÉS DES ENFANTS

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO FARMERS

SMART METERS

SMART METERS

HYDRO RATES

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

PRESCRIPTION DRUG ABUSE

GOVERNMENT’S RECORD

PEST CONTROL

STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT

ANIMAL PROTECTION

LABOUR DISPUTE

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

MANUFACTURING JOBS

TECHNOLOGY IN SCHOOLS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

LISA LAFLAMME

ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE

ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE

ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE

KERR STREET MINISTRIES

LEGION WEEK

RENEWABLE ENERGY

EDUCATION

SKILLS TRAINING

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

GENERAL GOVERNMENT

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

ITALIAN HERITAGE

MONTH ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LE MOIS

DU PATRIMOINE ITALIEN

ACCESS TO PERSONAL HEALTH

INFORMATION ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’ACCÈS

AUX RENSEIGNEMENTS PERSONNELS

SUR LA SANTÉ

WORLD WATER DAY ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LA JOURNÉE

MONDIALE DE L’EAU

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

PETITIONS

ONTARIO SOCIETY

FOR THE PREVENTION

OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

ONTARIO SOCIETY

FOR THE PREVENTION

OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

ONTARIO SOCIETY

FOR THE PREVENTION

OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

RECYCLING

ONTARIO SOCIETY

FOR THE PREVENTION

OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

RECYCLING

CONDOMINIUMS

PRIVATE MEMBERS’

PUBLIC BUSINESS

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS /

AIDE AUX AGRICULTEURS

TAXATION AMENDMENT ACT

(FOOD BANK DONATION TAX CREDIT

FOR FARMERS), 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES IMPÔTS (CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

AUX AGRICULTEURS POUR DONS

À UNE BANQUE ALIMENTAIRE)

PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION

AND HIGHWAY IMPROVEMENT

AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L’AMÉNAGEMENT

DES VOIES PUBLIQUES

ET DES TRANSPORTS EN COMMUN

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

TAXATION AMENDMENT ACT

(FOOD BANK DONATION TAX CREDIT

FOR FARMERS), 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES IMPÔTS (CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

AUX AGRICULTEURS POUR DONS

À UNE BANQUE ALIMENTAIRE)

PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION

AND HIGHWAY IMPROVEMENT

AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L’AMÉNAGEMENT

DES VOIES PUBLIQUES

ET DES TRANSPORTS EN COMMUN

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord’s Prayer, followed by the non-denominational prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CHILDREN’S ACTIVITY

TAX CREDIT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LE CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

POUR LES ACTIVITÉS DES ENFANTS

Resuming the debate adjourned on September 15, 2010, on the motion for second reading of Bill 99,

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 to implement the children’s activity tax credit / Projet de loi 99, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2007 sur les impôts pour mettre en oeuvre le crédit d’impôt pour les activités des enfants.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Questions and comments?

Mr. Jeff Leal: I’ll take my two minutes this morning to talk about the activity tax credit, but I just want to give a bit of a plug here this morning. The Peterborough Lakers are now in the Mann Cup, which is the Canadian national championship for lacrosse, in Peterborough against the New Westminster Salmonbellies.

Many of the players on the Peterborough Lakers—John Grant Jr., Scott Self, John Tavares—were youngsters who came up through the Peterborough minor lacrosse system. Lacrosse in Peterborough is almost like the Peterborough Petes to hockey. We’ve always been a community that has been recognized for both hockey and lacrosse.

For those young folks in Peterborough who have the opportunity to sign up for minor lacrosse—Karen and I signed up our own children, Braden and Shanae, a week ago for Peterborough minor basketball. When I had that opportunity, I was chatting with a large number of parents at the signup, and they were very enthusiastic about this tax credit, which is retroactive to January 1, 2010. So I encourage people to keep their receipts for signing up for those spring sports like soccer.

Now we’re moving into the fall for basketball and hockey, and since we have a really aggressive and very extensive minor sport system in the Peterborough area, I encourage those parents to take advantage of this. It’s great that it allows people—we have Market Hall in Peterborough, which has a young people’s theatrical program, and they’ll be able to sign up for that this fall. This is something that I think is seen as a very progressive measure throughout Ontario.

I encourage people, if they want to take the opportunity, to come to Peterborough Memorial Centre. The Lakers play both Friday night and Saturday night. Tickets are reasonable: $24 for an adult. This is an opportunity to see—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Thank you. Further questions and comments?

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I’m very pleased to respond to the excellent presentation that was made by my colleague the member from Parry Sound–Muskoka regarding this children’s tax credit that was introduced by the government this week.

I think this is certainly an acknowledgement on the part of the government of the anger we are seeing throughout the province of Ontario since they introduced their HST on July 1. They’ve already had to give back a tax credit to people—just for one year, mind you—in order to deal with some of the anger we’re seeing out there. But I think one of the issues that probably hit families the hardest was the HST, the additional 8% on children’s activities, whether it’s sport or music or others. So now the province is saying, “Okay, if you spend $500, we’ll give you a tax credit of $50.” Well, I would say to you that that isn’t a lot of money, and I would say that it is also not fair.

There are many people in this province who can’t pay money in order to enrol their daughter or son in activities. I know that from personal experience. I know that from the people I meet in my riding of Kitchener–Waterloo. They would love to enrol their children in skating lessons, hockey, music or what have you. But I’ll tell you: It costs far more than that, and this measly little $50 tax credit isn’t going to help these particular families.

Again, this government knows that Ontarians are angry with the HST—it’s going to cost them at least $1,000 extra per year—and they’re just trying to respond and deflect.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Rick Johnson: I’d just like to thank the member from Peterborough and the member from Kitchener–Waterloo for their comments on this bill.

The whole idea of the bill is not to pay the whole shot. This is just to provide assistance to families. I have nieces and nephews; the extra $50, or $100 if you’ve got a couple of children, will help.

It’s interesting to hear the criticism of this. When the federal Conservative Party put in a tax credit for this, this must be good, but this one is considered bad. The fact that it will be able to assist families with sports, music and other things that enrich children’s lives—it helps. It’s not supposed to be a subsidy; it’s just supposed to be something that will help kids become physically involved, something that will help them to go to sign up for programs.

We had more calls after this bill was announced two weeks ago, when this program was announced at my office, than we did on July 2, because parents were happy with this. They said, “You know what? It doesn’t subsidize the whole thing, but it gives us a little bit of assistance.” For the other party to slam it, for the opposition party to say this is not—I remember in 1997, when payments were sent out across the province to parents, and they were raving about what a good thing this was.

But you combine this with the tax savings that have been presented for low-income families—we doubled the Ontario tax benefit to $1,100. The subsidies that have been provided, the reduction in the income tax—all of these things are part of our new tax plan that we are moving forward with to support low-income families, to support Ontario families and to provide a little bit of relief. I’m happy with this, with what we’re proposing, and I’m looking forward to hearing the rest.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Frank Klees: I don’t think anyone can argue with the fact that we want to encourage families and make it easier for families to encourage their young people to be involved in sporting activities. No one is arguing that. What we take umbrage with is the fact that this sop is coming from a government that on the one hand has reached into the pockets of hard-working families and basically ripped out $1,000 through their HST, and now they want applause from members of the opposition for the measly $50 that they’re going to return so that the child can participate in sports.

Let me ask the member this: What sport is there where $50 is going to make a significant difference, given the fact that every time a family takes their children and puts them in the car and fills that car up, they’re going to be paying at least $500 a year more simply to fill up the tank of gas that takes the kids to and from their activities? This is simply one more example of this government being in such disconnect with hard-working families in this province. It’s a shame.

The fact of the matter is that what this government should be doing is recognizing that they’re making it virtually impossible for families to continue to be engaged in recreational activities through their continuous plan of tax and spend, and the result of that is that people in this province are angry with them. This will not in any way make them feel any better about this government.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): The honourable member for Parry Sound–Muskoka has two minutes for his response.

Mr. Norm Miller: Thank you, first of all, to the member from Peterborough for his comments. I was wondering when he was going to get to Bill 99, because it did sound a bit like an advertisement for lacrosse in Peterborough for the first part of his comments—although he did mention the cost of going to the lacrosse game that he was advertising as being $24 for a ticket. Just think about it. This bill is going to give families $50 back. Well, their $50—if just two of them go to this lacrosse game, they will have used the full $50. That’s what we’re talking about: $50. I think that shows just how little a difference it’s actually going to make.

The member from Kitchener–Waterloo correctly pointed out that there is a lot of anger out there, that families are concerned about the fact of the HST, that 8% going on the gas when they drive to their soccer game or their hockey game, about other increased costs like the eco tax—which has been put on the shelf, for a month or two anyway—the extra cost of insurance, the significantly higher costs of energy that are happening day by day in the province. So families don’t have any money left; they don’t have the money left to be able to spend the $500 to get the 10% credit so they’ll get the $50 back.

As has been pointed out, the government has been reaching into the pockets of families. They’re taking $1,000 out just in the HST, and there’s just no money left.

I’d also like to thank the member from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock for his comments, and of course the member from Newmarket–Aurora, who did point out that the McGuinty government keeps reaching into the pockets of those families.

There’s nothing left. Families can’t afford that $500 to be able to get the $50 back.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Some pieces of legislation that come before us are very large, some are very complex, some have a huge impact on the lives of people in this province and some are just puppies. It’s hard not to like a puppy: It’s little; it’s cute. It doesn’t bring home the bacon and, frankly, a picture of a puppy on an election flyer is something that everyone would love. I expect that this piece of legislation is going to be part of that.

I just want to note that I will be sharing some of my time with my colleague Mr. Miller from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek.

I can see this piece of legislation now in a television commercial, with kids coming home from their hockey game, parents working through their tax forms, looking up, smiling and being happy that for all the money they’ve put out, they’re going to get back $50. And I think the amount may well not be mentioned in the commercial. But this particular piece of legislation can’t miss; it has got to be there because it’s going to be seen as a friendly puppy helping a family.

But, Speaker, as you know, as I know and as everyone else in this Legislature knows, people are going to be facing increased costs to send their kids to hockey or to take their kids to a live performance. People are going to be faced with increased costs from the HST that will more than eat up what’s brought before us in this piece of legislation.

As you well know, the simple reality is that in this province, in schools, administrations have difficulty getting together the money to actually provide school bands with instruments. As I said when this bill was introduced, a friend of mine works in a public school in Toronto, and when they find that an instrument is gone, that’s it; it gets taken out of the curriculum. They don’t have other money. Some schools do much better because they have the ability, because of the population they serve, to raise money at school events, and they buy instruments, which is a wonderful thing.

But, frankly, in all schools across this province, there should be adequate funding for arts and for music so that every child who has that ability or every child who has not yet discovered that they have that ability gets a chance to participate in the arts. This bill will not deal with that shortfall in our education system.

When this bill was introduced the other day, I was talking to my colleague the member from Kenora–Rainy River, who said that his calculation of this bill is that it wouldn’t even cover the HST on the hockey fees that he pays every year for his children, who are active in amateur hockey. I have to tell you, it’s not a bad idea to have a refundable tax credit, because there are a lot of people whose income is so little that they actually wouldn’t be able to claim simply a deduction; they need a repayment.

But, in general, those are people who don’t have 500 bucks to scratch together to put into fees at the beginning of the year, and have to wait six months, eight months, a year before they get their $50 back. That impact on those people is going to be quite low. What they need is adequate funding of our schools so that sports and the arts are provided at a very high level, with good quality, so that they don’t have to worry about scraping together the money to send their kids to these particular activities. Those activities are already provided as part of what we give to our children in this province.

There are a lot of other areas where one can speak about the reduction in affordability of this province because of initiatives of this government—reductions in affordability because this government is spending money unwisely. I cite the smart meters as a particular case in point—situations where people are going to see reductions in their standard of living, not because, in fact, we’re expanding public services, but because we’re spending money stupidly. This bill doesn’t do that. It gives people a break. It’s $50. I say to you and I say to all those who may at some point receive that $50: Don’t spend it all in one shot.

It isn’t a big bill. I don’t have long comments. I cede the floor to my colleague Mr. Miller.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): The honourable member for Hamilton East–Stoney Creek.

Mr. Paul Miller: As my colleague pointed out—and of course I heard some talk from the other side, “Well, are you going to vote for it?” Of course we are. We’re not going to take anything out of the taxpayers’ pockets. However, once again it’s a quarter or a 10th of what they should be doing. It’s one of those half-baked bills that you have no choice other than to support, because they will turn around and say, “Oh, you’re against children,” or, “You’re against this” if you don’t vote for it. It’s a joke.

Let’s talk about the $50. Let’s talk about that. Okay, I’ve got two kids in hockey, let’s say. Average ice-skate sharpening is 5 bucks. So for two kids, that’s 50 bucks—five skate sharpenings is my break. Wow, that’s a biggie. Twenty-five bucks each over a whole season, and they probably get their skates sharpened 20 or 15 times over a season. I used to sharpen my skates before every game, when I played. So that’s a real joke.

Let’s talk about hockey registration. Oh, they’re probably 160 bucks or 150 bucks just to register, plus your HST. Well, there goes the 50 bucks—plus. Let’s talk about any sport you want. What is 50 bucks going to do?

Let’s talk about administration costs for sending out the cheque. There’s going to be something there.

Let’s talk about the service clubs. They didn’t even mention the service clubs in this bill. In my riding, 20% of the people are living below the poverty level. They can’t afford to put one kid, let alone two kids, into sports, and they’re going to allow them, for $500, 50 bucks. They don’t have the $500 to put into sports. What do they do? They go to the service clubs—the Lions Club, the Optimist Club. These clubs, through their generosity, support the kids in different types of sports, donate, buy their shirts, buy their sweaters and buy their skates, or whatever they need.

They can’t declare it because they’re not a family. But they’re supporting hundreds of kids of my community. What break do they get? Nothing.

Fifty dollars? What’s that going to do? I don’t know. Jeez, a haircut is 20 bucks. Fifteen bucks for a haircut. I don’t know.

Mr. Michael A. Brown: Well, vote against it.

Mr. Paul Miller: So when they sit there and say, “Vote against it,” that is such nonsense. They know, any party knows, they’re not going to take anything from the voter if it’s a benefit. They know that. For them to do that is a cheap shot, and for them to say—of course we’re going to support it. But you know what one member of the official opposition said here yesterday? He said that it’s peanuts. I wouldn’t even classify it as peanuts; I’d say it’s fine grind. It’s minuscule.

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: What did you say?

Mr. Paul Miller: Fine grind. It’s nothing. It’ll be eaten up in the first day of their registration.

Don’t fool yourselves out there: The government’s giving you a little piece. There will be more gifts coming along as it gets near election day. Little tidbits will be coming out—Timbits, I call them—to entice the voters to vote for this party again. I hope they’re not fooled. I hope they don’t take these little Timbits and think how wonderful the Liberals are. Please, don’t let them fool you again, because once again they’re going to break 200, 300 promises down the road, like they always do after an election.

When I look at this whole situation and all the bills that are going to come forward in the next few months, trust me, it’s not going to be any great benefit to the people of Ontario. It’s simply to con them into voting for the same government, the same old, same old. There’s not a lot to say about this, because the bill is three pages long. It is a nothing bill—another nothing bill, I might add—and it will do nothing to support or help the people in this province for their sports activities. Believe me, it is a zero bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions and comments?

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. The honourable member for Kitchener–Conestoga.

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: It’s my pleasure to join the debate this morning, which is very lively and heated. But I’d like to begin my comments calm and to the point. This is good for Ontario families. Bill 99, the Children’s Activity Tax Credit Act, is good for Ontario families. We can hear all the complaints in the world from the opposition. I think the reason we’re hearing such fussiness and emotion this morning is because the opposition knows it’s a good thing for kids and a good thing for Ontario families, and we’re hearing that from them.

We’ve heard the opposition tell us that this is a joke.

Mr. Paul Miller: It is.

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: It’s no joke to help Ontario families. The McGuinty government has a list of concerted efforts focused to help Ontario families and help Ontario children. We’ve just seen the implementation of full-day learning in the province of Ontario. This is another step forward to help Ontario families.

Frankly, to sit here in the House and hear the opposition complain that it’s not enough, it’s not enough—my goodness, they sound like my three sons: “Mom, it’s not enough. We want to do more. It’s not enough.” The adult thing to do here is to say, “It’s a step forward.” It’s a modest step forward, but at the end of the day, it is a step forward to help Ontario families.

I have three sons. Fifty dollars per son is $150. When you couple that with the federal tax credit of $75, I’m now receiving $125 per child, times three.

Mr. Jeff Leal: It’s a lot of money.

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: Thank you. This is a lot of money. These are difficult times, and the McGuinty government recognizes that these are difficult times in the province of Ontario. These are difficult times around the world. So it’s unacceptable for anyone to stand in this House and publicly say that this is a joke. It is no joke that Ontario families are looking for assistance, and the McGuinty government is giving them that assistance. Bill 99 today assists parents to allow their children to participate in physical and non-fitness activities across the province of Ontario, and I’m proud to support this bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions and comments?

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I want to applaud the member who has just spoken. I think he makes excellent points based on his own personal experience of having children who are involved in sports activities. I think he has pointed out how minuscule the impact of this tax is on families like his own. But I think what is more important is the fact that this tax is an attempt on the part of the McGuinty government to respond to the anger that people in the province of Ontario are feeling because of the increased cost of living.

On July 1, this government introduced the HST. We know it’s going to cost the average family about $1,000 extra a year and it’s going to hit children’s activities, because what has happened is that children’s activities are now of course subject to the HST, which they were not before. It has increased the cost to families for the participation of their children in activities. So do you know what? This hasn’t really been done in an attempt to give back to families; it’s a recognition of the fact that Ontarians are angry. They’re angry about the HST. The government now probably realizes they’ve made a mistake. They’ve already had to give the public one rebate for the first year of the HST.

But you know, this HST and these increased taxes are just part of what Ontarians are seeing. They’re seeing increased energy rates, which are really going through the roof and are going to cause increasing hardship. They’re seeing their auto insurance rates go up. There was an attempt by this government to impose an eco tax, which we’ll see again. So this tax credit, much as it is good for children, doesn’t achieve its objective.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Pat Hoy: I’m pleased to rise and make comments about this particular bill. I do remember when the official opposition came forward and were giving families, I believe, $100 back. It was something that Jesse Ventura had come up with as governor of Minnesota. I think they rather copied Mr. Ventura at the time, and they thought it was wonderful. Here we have a possibility where a family of two could get $100 back, which would be a similar amount of money as the official opposition did. Of course, if they have more children than that in one family, it would be $50 times whatever that number might be. I also want to point out that this is also available at $100 for disabled children.

There is no mail-out. The opposition are talking about the cost of mail and stamps and postage. This is a tax credit; it’s on their tax form. It will be done automatically. There is no mailing involved here. Further to that, even people who file and pay no income tax in that particular year will still qualify. So it’s good for everyone concerned who files.

Not only does this cover sports, but it covers music, as has been mentioned, and Cubs, Scouts and Girl Guides. So there’s a wide range of opportunities here. I think it’s going to help families overall. Seventy-five million dollars is a sizable amount of money, I would suggest to all who are listening here. I think it goes a long way to recognizing, on our government’s part, the challenges that families face. I think it is a credible and worthwhile endeavour, and I look forward to seeing just who does vote for and against this particular bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mrs. Liz Sandals: I’m very pleased to be able to respond and, I hope, correct some of the misimpressions from the folks across the way. I really am offended by the notion that a tax credit that is worth 10%, or in the case of disabled children 20%, of the value of what you’re claiming is somehow peanuts. I challenge you to find tax credits that are in excess of that. That is a very generous tax credit, and in particular it’s a refundable tax credit, which does help low-income folks. So if in fact you don’t owe income tax because you have low income, if you file for this tax credit, you will get a cheque in the mail even if you don’t owe taxes because it’s a fully refundable tax credit.

I had an opportunity to do an announcement in my community. The reaction that I have gotten has been 100% positive. In particular, not only are the sports organizations very pleased that they will now be able to essentially double, because they’re getting the federal Tory tax credit—which apparently the opposition thinks is good; they will now be getting double the tax credit that they qualify for now. They think it’s great. The arts organizations, people who do music lessons, drama lessons, dance lessons, tutoring for your child, all sorts of things that were not previously available, are absolutely thrilled that they’re now included.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): NDP members have up to two members for a response.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I appreciate the opportunity and the efforts of my colleagues from Kitchener–Conestoga, Kitchener–Waterloo, Chatham–Kent–Essex and Guelph to address my very brief remarks. In fact, I think the commentary may exceed the time that I actually spoke about the bill.

Let’s be clear about this: People in Ontario appreciate the idea that they would get some of the extra money they’re spending on the HST back on their income tax, and those who can afford to put the up-front cash out for arts or sports activities will be able to garner a credit of up to $50. You know, we throw the $50 figure around a lot; it may well just be ten bucks. It may be 15; it may be five. I don’t know precisely what people will get, but one can’t assume that one will always get that maximum fee of $50.

I liken this bill to a puppy because, in fact, it isn’t something you can hate; it just isn’t going to actually make the difference that needs to be made for the families in this province. The people in this province are facing a situation where schools often are in bad physical condition, where students don’t get access to arts programs the way they need to get them, where parents come to me utterly frustrated about the lack of daycare and the lack or the slowness with which early learning is being introduced to the extent that some will see nothing until their children are too old to benefit from such a program. Those are the large items. Those are the big issues that need to be addressed.

What we have before us today is an item that will show up in political television commercials, that will show up on flyers, but in the end, it won’t address the fundamental problems facing the families in this province.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: It is a pleasure to rise this morning to talk about the Ontario children’s activity tax credit.

Just before I get into that, a member from the opposition, in one of the two-minute responses, made a comment about the Peterborough Lakers: that the $24 was an advertisement, and “How much is $50 going to buy you?” The opposition seems to talk about doom and gloom—and I understand that; that’s part of their job—but they should really fill in some of the blanks. I’m going to use the Lakers tickets that the member brought up. Those tickets probably have gone down this year. Do you know why? Because the former entertainment tax of 10% has now gone down to 8%. When you combine the two, it’s 13%; before it used to be 15%. They don’t talk about that.

Mr. Jeff Leal: Three thousand people on Saturday night.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: You talk about 3,000 people in that stadium. If anything, those tickets are more affordable this year than they were last year.

They don’t tell the whole—can I say “truth”? The whole story.

Mrs. Liz Sandals: The whole story.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: The whole story. They should say that—the whole truth.

Interjection.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: It’s not enough. I haven’t heard one of the members from either opposition party tell us—what would you have done? How much would you have given back to these families? I hear that $50 is not enough, that it doesn’t do anything.

I’m a proud father of four kids and the grandfather of nine grandkids, and I was just taking a quick count; six of my nine grandkids are involved in some type of activity that’s covered by this. Doing some quick math, between the federal and the provincial, it’s about $600 to my immediate family a year.

Mrs. Liz Sandals: That’s a lot.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: That’s a lot of money. So for the members of the opposition to scoff and laugh at that, I just don’t get it.

I remember—some of us were here who are sitting here this morning—when the federal government introduced their $50 credit. I remember distinctly when the opposition, both parties, petitioned this government to do the right thing like the federal Harper government did. It took us a couple of years—

Mrs. Liz Sandals: It was a great idea.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: It was a great idea.

Frankly, we’re not supposed to talk about what happens within caucus meetings, but I remember some of our members lobbying the Minister of Finance, who I think was Mr. Sorbara at that time, that we should carbon-copy what Prime Minister Harper and his government did back in those days so that we were in sync.

Yes, it’s $50, but I can tell you that some families—and I’m talking about families where mom or dad has lost their job. That’s a reality we face in this global experience of challenges in the last couple of years. To a family, kids in general—and I would say in general—come first in the sense that any parent will do anything for their child. Yes, they were struggling to register little Johnny for hockey or dance or music lessons, but they knew how important that was.

I can tell you that what I heard, contrary to what some of the members are saying they’re hearing now, is: “We need some help. If there’s anything you can do, let’s keep those kids active; let’s keep those kids off the streets; let’s maybe take those kids away from playing their video game in front of the TV and give them some physical exercise, whether it’s dance or those things.” I believe and I know that this is the right move.

The question is always, is it enough? Frankly, I’m not sure what is enough, and I would encourage the members from the opposition, instead of saying, “No, no, no, no, no,” that this is not good, to tell us what they think is good. I hope, although they’re talking the way they’re talking here during the debate, that in their heart they find a way to support this, because it might be little, as they say, but it’s better than what they’ve got to offer. I haven’t heard from them—

Mrs. Liz Sandals: It’s just negative.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: They’re just being negative. The talk is that it’s a disgrace; it’s a shame; we should be embarrassed. Well, a $75-million commitment to give back to some folks, especially dealing with kids’ activities—I think that’s a lot of money. It might not be a lot of money to them, but where I come from, in my family, that is a lot of money.

I’m really struggling with this, “Oh, it’s a disgrace. It’s only $50.” Well, I can tell you, in my household, and I’m sure in a lot of households, we spend time clipping coupons for 50 cents because when we go to the grocery store, that 50 cents is something—20 cents, $1. We spend time clipping those coupons so that when we go to the grocery store or when we go to buy—you clip a coupon for when you get a pair of hockey gloves to save $5.

Interjection.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: We do it at our home. It’s money. It’s really hard to wrap your head around those kinds of things.

I talked a little bit about how this tax credit emulates somewhat the federal tax credit, but I want to take a minute to point out that yes, it emulates it, but it goes two steps further. We could have emulated the federal tax credit program when the federal government did it; the Ministry of Finance assessed it. Based on what we hear on the street on the federal tax credit—which, by the way, was applauded by the official opposition when that happened, and it was only $50. It was good then; it’s not good now.

What did we hear? Kids taking dance lessons or those other activities were not dealt with accordingly as someone who played hockey or soccer. I’m going to talk about some of those different things. We hear a lot of that.

The other thing that it did is—this is probably using Tory talk—it benefited the wealthy, the people who could afford to put their kids in the sports activities. Frankly, where I come from, there are a lot of families that are in an income bracket that don’t pay any taxes. They were shut out; totally ignored. The people who need the tax credit the most were shut out.

So what did we do? We fixed those two things. Our list of activities that people can claim up to $50 for, I’ll tell you, just taking a quick glance at some of the obvious things, it’s double or triple what the federal credit qualifies for. But what I think is even more important, or just as important, is the fact that the families that have an income level where they don’t pay much tax or don’t pay any tax are actually going to get a cheque back for up to 50 bucks. How can we argue with that? I just don’t get where the opposition is coming from.

What have I heard in the week or so since we made this announcement? Just the other night I was at the Cobourg Cougars opening game, and unfortunately they played the Trenton Golden Hawks—both teams are in my riding.

Mrs. Liz Sandals: Oh, dear. Who do you cheer for?

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Who do we cheer for? In my mind, both teams won, but the Cobourg Cougars did win 4 to 1. But both teams won.

So what did I hear in those arenas? What did I hear when I went to my granddaughter’s hockey practice last week? I think my daughter was the first one to say, “Dad, that was a good thing.” And I’m going to admit that she said, “But it could have been a little bit better; it could have been a little bit more.” That’s the reality. When is enough? But then, as I talked to some parents, they told me the same thing. Yes, some of them did say, “Well, it could have been a little bit bigger cheque.” Yes, I will not lie about that. But all I can say is, they thanked us for putting the initiative forward.

In the limited time we have here, I wanted to talk about some of the activities that this covers: badminton, ball hockey, chess, choir, baseball, cooking for kids—organized classes where they pay a fee—different crafts courses, drama, dance, even first aid courses, Girl Guides and Boy Scouts—and even for uniforms. So, if somebody doesn’t tell me this is a benefit to Main Street Ontario families, I must be missing something.

As we move forward and hopefully this legislation gets passed, the other thing that I want to point out is that when it gets passed, it will be effective January 1, 2010. So, for some, this money they have spent already, they qualify, and in the seven years I’ve been here, there are not too many times that that happens. Normally, we do something and it’s two years down the road. We’ll get there. We’re going back, because we know this is important; this is something the families were asking for.

I commend the Minister of Finance for understanding, under these difficult times—$75 million is a lot of money for government to commit to on a permanent basis. This is not a one-timer; this is on a permanent basis.

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: And it’s indexed.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Yes, and it is indexed.

So I can tell you that this is good news. The member opposite from the third party can see this in a brochure.

Interjection.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I’m proud to put it in my brochure. I will put it in my brochure, and I would hope that the member opposite will put it in his brochure. If you’re truly representing your constituents, yes, you want to report the doom and gloom, but tell them about the good things for their kids and families. Please—since he offered that, whether we’re going to put it in my brochure, I probably will, because I’m proud of what this government has done. I’m proud to be part of a government that cares about families.

I would encourage the members of the opposition to put that in their brochures, because the more we can tell people—because frankly, sometimes, one of the things I find is that governments have a lot of programs. Sometimes they’re cumbersome, and sometimes they don’t know. When I go and speak to different groups—seniors, for example—about some of the tax credits, they don’t know they even exist.

So the more we can make them aware of it—I would encourage members of the opposition to help us tell the good story, to put this in their brochures, put this in their householders, put this in their monthly, weekly, yearly newsletters, because we want to make sure that those families get the benefit from this.

I’ve talked about some of the things that are eligible, and the list is fairly long. We’re talking about, for example, kids taking ski lessons. We live in Ontario. Not very far from the GTA, we have some world-class, state-of-the-art skiing facilities. I’m not a skier, but I know that I visit them, and kids taking skiing lessons in the middle of winter—what an opportunity, and they will be able to get some credit back for that.

One of the things I’ve failed to mention is that kids with disabilities are always faced with different challenges because, whether it is a piece of equipment or whether it’s registration because it needs more attention, those fees are always higher. I was in the beautiful hamlet of Bewdley on Sunday—

Mr. Jeff Leal: That’s a great spot. They used to have a newspaper, the Bewdley Bugle.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: That’s right—for the opening of their renewed sports centre, a state-of-the-art facility, a beautiful arena. There is this one woman who has a challenged daughter—they moved from the Toronto area, I believe, some three or four years ago—and she started a sledge hockey team in beautiful Bewdley in the municipality of Hamilton township, just north of Cobourg. Of course, Bewdley is on the south shore of beautiful Rice Lake. I had an opportunity to talk to this mother. They’re getting calls from all over southern Ontario about having their child take

part in this sledge hockey team.

First of all, it’s very affordable. It’s in a small community; their expenses are not all that great. The community, the municipality, because of the programs they’re offering—and it’s really welcome news—are helping them out with some ice fees and so forth, so it does make it very, very attractive.

So the parents of those kids who take

part in this sledge hockey team are going to benefit by about $100 from that provincial—

Mrs. Liz Sandals: Per child.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Per child.

I was going to say that we know what it’s like to have somebody disabled in your family, but I really can’t say that because I don’t have any. But I can only picture it; I can only think. So anything that we can do to help those folks I know they’ll appreciate. I know for a fact they’ll appreciate it.

As my time ticks down, regardless of what folks from the opposition would say to you—“That’s not enough”—I want to empower them for a couple of things. Let them put their best foot forward and tell us what this should really be.

Mrs. Liz Sandals: What would they do?

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: What would they do? Because it’s not only on this issue: The doom and gloom parties of the opposite—they talk about doom and gloom—have never put their best foot forward to let us know what they’re going to do. All they can tell you is that the sky is going to fall in every day. Well, you know, the sky’s not going to fall in—at least, I don’t think it is.

More importantly, although they criticize this to no end, I know in their own ridings and in their own constituencies, there are families with kids, and those families could benefit from this. Like I said a minute ago, although on the surface they seem to be opposing this, I want them to tell those parents, “Yes, it might not be enough”—let them even put their own spin on it—“but please take part. Take the benefit that’s available to you.” I would encourage you, I am asking you, to tell the families in your own ridings that if—when—this legislation is passed, they’re entitled to that extra incentive at the end of each year.

To close off, I really want to encourage all sides that when it comes to helping families, when it comes to helping kids, we need to park our partisan hats somewhere and do what’s best for families. I think this is one of those things that’s best for families.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions and comments?

Mr. Norm Miller: It’s my pleasure to respond to the speech from the member from Northumberland–Quinte West. The member was making my point for me, in that what I’ve been saying is that this is more about next year’s election, and it’s for the government to be seen to be giving some money back to help families out.

He raised the question. He said, “It’s going to take effect January 1, 2010. It’s retroactive, and that’s very unusual.” I think those were his words. Guess what? Why is it retroactive? What’s next year? It’s an election year. So, come spring, all of these families are going to be receiving the $50. I think it’s the government’s hope that they’ll remember where it came from. I think that answers the question about why it’s retroactive.

But I simply have to say that the reason we’re critical of it—I’ll respond to one other question. They asked: What would we have done? We wouldn’t have been a tax-and-spend government like this government has been. That has necessitated them to have their hand in the pocket of taxpayers continually for such things as the HST, which, as the member from Kitchener–Waterloo pointed out, is a $1,000 extra charge.

The list goes on and on and on of the extra charges that Ontario families are facing. So $50 is not going to be very significant for them when they’re paying an extra $1,000 for the HST and when every week there’s another announcement about energy costs going up. There was 10%, and then there’s the HST on it. Then there are the smart meters, which are putting the rate up dramatically for prime-time use. We had the eco tax, which has disappeared for a few months, but it’s going to be coming back. We have, of course, the health tax this government brought into effect.

We have auto insurance that, if you have the same coverage, is going up. If you happen to live in the city of Toronto, you have significantly increased charges.

So $50 isn’t going to mean that much when taxes have gone up so much under this government.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions or comments?

Mr. Paul Miller: I would like to address the member from Northumberland–Quinte West’s comments. He mentioned that he has a large family and that he is very proud of the fact that they’re getting all these breaks.

But what he doesn’t mention is the fact that you have to spend $500 to get the $50. I don’t know what part of the province he’s from, but in my area, they don’t have the $500 in the first place to even get the tax credit—in fact, they can’t even put one child in—because 20% of the people in my riding are below the poverty level. They go to the service clubs, they go to get help from the community, and they can’t declare it.

Then he said that it’s going to be $100 for kids who are challenged. Well, $100—a lot of these kids require special equipment for sledding and that. Are they going to pay HST on that? I think they are. Are they going to pay HST on the registration fee? I think they are. You can kiss that $50 or $100 goodbye there; that’s a start.

What the member doesn’t mention is that most people in this province aren’t in the six figures in the money they receive. Naturally, grandpa and grandma can kick out extra money if the kids can’t afford to play because their working parents can’t afford it; they go to grandpa and grandma. Let me assure the member that most of the people in this province don’t make $100,000 a year. That’s another bit of a grey area that he didn’t talk about.

The other member talked about the 100% response from her sports clubs and her community. I’ll tell the truth: I never received one phone call or one email about this great $50—not one. I don’t know who the 100% are. I guess 100% of two phone calls might be 100% of two phone calls.

They’re really putting a grey area around this big break. Trust me: This is no big break. He asked what we would do. We would give a heck of a lot more, because you’ve spent hundreds of millions of dollars on—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Thank you. Further questions and comments?

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: I’m very pleased to respond to the speech from the member from Northumberland–Quinte West. I think we’ll all want to support any kind of a tax credit to young people. I know many of us have children and grandchildren who participate in a lot of sports, and sure, $50 is $50. Whether it’s $25, $50, $100—whatever it may be—we’ll take any help we can get.

I think what he failed to mention is that for every man, woman and child in the province of Ontario—the public accounts just came out a week ago, and there’s just under a $20-billion deficit for the past year. That translates into around $1,500 for every man, woman and child in the province of Ontario. This government has added another $1,500 to the accumulated debt in the province of Ontario to every man, woman and child, and they’re going to brag about giving $50 back. We’ve still got a deficit there for every man, woman and child of $1,450. I didn’t hear him talk about anything to do with debt.

He just seems to zero in on these little gains that make them happy, and they hope they’ll get some kind of support in the next provincial election.

But I can tell you that nothing could be further from the truth. I think the public has caught on to this government. They’ve caught on to the smart meters this week. It’s just a weekly barrage of mismanagement of this economy. And you know what? It might be an election ploy now, but I think next October 6 the citizens of the province of Ontario will reward this government and kick them out of office.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions and comments? Seeing none, the honourable member for Northumberland–Quinte West has up to two minutes for his response.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I want to thank the three members who made some comments, and I want to talk a little bit about each one of them in the two minutes I have.

The member from Parry Sound–Muskoka talked about how the HST is costing families $1,000 per person or whatever, $1,000 more per year. He doesn’t talk about the tax credits that those working people are getting back. He leaves that out of the equation. He forgets that folks with low or no income get a PST tax credit of up to $260 a year. He doesn’t talk about that.

He talked about the rising insurance premiums. Some of us, including me sometimes, have very short memories. I remember that during their era in government for six years, insurance premiums went up over 40%. What did they do? They walked away from it. “Fend for yourself.” And what did we do when we formed government? We reduced those premiums. They talk about insurance premiums going up in the last little while, or that are going to go up—in the very short time that they were the government, over 40%. He doesn’t tell that.

Interjection.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: The member from Hamilton East answers my question, “Well, what would you offer?” His answer was, “A lot more.” Wow. That really makes those parents feel much better. Man, that really satisfies people on the street.

Mr. Paul Miller: Seventy-five million dollars. Wowee.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: “Wowee,” he says. I just heard him say, “$75 million. Wowee.”

The member from Simcoe North talked about the debt. Well, you know it’s not only Ontario with a debt; it’s the world with a debt.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I’m very pleased to join the debate on Bill 99,

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 to implement the children’s activity tax credit.

Our critic from Parry Sound–Muskoka has done an outstanding job of conveying the position of our party on this piece of legislation, this tax credit for children, and also to point out the concerns we have about what is happening here—not so much about the tax credit itself, but certainly what has happened prior to the introduction of this tax credit and the environment that has been created in this province that at the end of the day really amounts to this being minimal tax relief for families after they have been so heavily burdened by the McGuinty government, who have ushered in in recent months—in fact, ever since they were elected in 2003—a long line of increases to family budgets.

This act provides for a children’s activity tax credit. We’ve heard from the member for Northumberland–Quinte West that the great thing is that it’s unusual but it’s going to be retroactive to January 2010. Well, we know why this is unusual: The government is aware of the public anger out there, so they’re hoping people will see this tax credit next spring and be impressed. However, based on what I’m hearing in my own constituency of Kitchener–Waterloo, people in the province of Ontario are very concerned about the hits to their pocketbook over and over again.

I would say to you, I support a tax credit. In fact, we’re going to support this. I do think it’s important that children have an opportunity to participate in physical activity, in music and drama, in whatever they have an interest in doing. However, I think we also have to recognize that not everybody is going to get the $50. It’s going to depend on how much you have been able to afford to invest in your child.

So the $50 is a maximum, but if you have only been able to afford to invest $100 in your child for these types of activities, I hope the public isn’t fooled and thinks that they are going to get the $50 tax credit, because they won’t. I guess that is my only concern about this piece of legislation, the fact that not all families can afford to spend $500.

We’ve heard now that school fees have been increasing and families are being asked to pay for more and more in the way of what should be considered a basic necessity at school. We’re hearing they have to pay these activity fees to participate in athletics. They’re having to pay for music. They’re having to pay for some science materials. Families in this province can’t afford all of these fees. They can’t afford the increases that they’re seeing on what used to be basic necessities in our schools.

They also cannot afford the HST, which this government introduced on July 1, which has really contributed to driving up the cost of enrolling their children in these activities—the government now is saying they recognize that it was a mistake. It probably is causing some hardship and so they’ve introduced this, in some respects as a public relations measure, to provide some minimal tax relief to families. But that’s after the average family, now with the HST that was introduced on July 1, is going to be paying about $1,000 more per year. So this is just a small initiative that is going to provide a little bit of relief. That’s what we need to recognize.

This government, since 2003, when the Premier first said before the election, “I’m not going to raise your taxes,” did raise our taxes. Families ended up having to pay the health fee. Well, I can tell you that that health premium has brought in about $15 billion, but that money has come out of the pockets of hard-working families who actually believed the Premier in 2003 that he wasn’t going to raise their taxes. Now they see a government and a Premier who have changed. The first thing that they witnessed was this health premium. So, again, we look at Bill 99, but this is minimal tax relief compared to what the public is seeing.

Then, of course, we’ve had the Green Energy Act that was introduced. It’s very important to conserve energy. However, according to London Economics International, this Green Energy Act that the McGuinty government introduced is going to cost Ontario $46 billion from 2010 to 2025. That is equivalent to $631 per household per year. Look at all that money. This tax credit, Bill 99, is minimal in comparison to what Ontario families are going to have to pay. Then, they tried to sneakily introduce an eco tax on the same day as they introduced the HST initiative, on July 1. That was going to be on 9,000 products.

But, again, they were caught, and the Premier has recognized that it was not managed well. They didn’t really know what it was that they were doing, and so they’ve taken it back to the drawing board. But the public knows that very shortly they are going to have to pay this eco fee, a new tax again. Bill 99 is minimal tax relief in comparison to the new eco fees and taxes that the public is going to have to pay.

Let’s take a look at auto insurance rates. They are increasing beyond belief. The new reforms are going to drive up the cost and yet give less in the way of protection to the average driver out there. So again, they’re increasing, and we’re going to see them increasing. We did, in 2009, by 8.8%. Again, a big increase for families, and when you look at Bill 99, you can see that it doesn’t compensate for what families are seeing.

Then we’ve got our smart meters. What a fiasco they have been. Number one, some of the technology is faulty. Some of the readings are totally inaccurate. People are trying so hard to decrease the utilization of energy, but instead, these smart meters seem to be contributing to increasing family electricity prices and they are driving costs up. Plus, of course, the HST has now been added to electricity prices. That’s driving up the cost of electricity. Then, of course, some of the new fees that I referred to—the Green Energy Act—contribute to higher electricity rates.

So again, Bill 99 provides minimal relief to families compared to the huge increases they’re seeing when it comes to these smart meters, which are causing energy prices to go up.

What else has happened? Well, we’ve had many fee increases that this government has introduced. We’ve seen a lot of government services increasing in recent years, such as driver testing. We’re seeing increases in fines and penalties for seatbelts, speeding and driving offences. This government has introduced a lot of new costs to the public. Obviously I don’t support people breaking the law—they definitely shouldn’t do so—but I could say to you that there are a lot of new taxes and a lot of new fees that have been introduced by this government, and this is creating a lot of hardship for families in the province of Ontario.

Bill 99, although I support it and I support anything in order to ensure that our children are involved in activities that will increase their physical activity, because we’re seeing an increasing rate of obesity in the province of Ontario, and tied into that obesity is also an increase in diabetes in children—so obviously, we need to be doing what we can in order to encourage and motivate children to become involved in physical activity. But we also have to recognize that not all families can afford the cost, so we have to look at other ways for that physical activity to be increased and new opportunities provided to our children.

I certainly support the involvement of our children in music, in dramatic arts, in dance—in fact, my daughter danced for many years—but I can tell you, when your children become involved in those activities, they’re very expensive. There are all sorts of costs that are far beyond the $500, and unfortunately, a lot of these activities are based on a family’s ability to pay in the first place. I certainly support money that would be used so that students get some enrichment or some tutoring.

So I don’t disagree with the basic premise of the bill: to help families. However, I would say that it really provides only minimal tax relief when you take a look at the additional tax initiatives that this government has introduced since 2003 when the Premier first said, “I won’t raise your taxes.” Let’s just reiterate what he has done. We had the health tax, which really hit families hard. We’ve had the hydro increases, which we just have not seen the end of yet. Those tax grabs are going to continue. We’ve had the $3-billion HST tax grab.

We’ve had the attempt on the part of this government to introduce the secret eco tax. And most recently, families are seeing that the auto reforms that were introduced are really providing them with higher fees but less coverage. I also mentioned the fact that some of the basic school supplies that formerly were available to students—families are now being asked to pay for those as well.

You know what? Life under the Premier and this Liberal government has increased, particularly this past year. We’re hearing about a lot of hardship from our constituents. I think, particularly in the last few months, they’re seeing that it has become more and more difficult on a daily basis for them to make ends meet.

We just heard that the deficit is now about $20 billion, and we know the debt is at a level beyond anything we’ve ever seen in this province. If you look at Bill 99, which provides some minimal tax relief, and you take a look at the debt and the deficit, we have to remember that that debt and that deficit are tomorrow’s taxes for our children and our grandchildren. I think we need to get a handle on the out-of-control spending, the mismanagement, and we need to make sure that we look after the families in the province of Ontario.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): It being 10:15 of the clock, this House stands in recess until 10:30, at which time we will have question period.

The House recessed from 1017 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Monte Kwinter: It’s my pleasure to introduce the family of Emily Goldberg, the page from York Centre. In the members’ gallery, we’ve got father Michael Goldberg, mother Heather Goldberg, grandmother Rene Katzman, grandfather Mel Katzman, grandmother Tillie Goldberg and grandfather Hy Goldberg. Let’s give them a welcome.

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I’d like to welcome some of our guests this morning: Reverend Vincent Thompson, Jack Murphy, Paul Murphy, Pat Persaud, Yukon Persaud, Elaine Murphy and Frank Murphy. Welcome to the Legislature.

Mr. Randy Hillier: I’d like to welcome and introduce a few people to the gallery today: Harold Wilson, president of the Thunder Bay Chamber of Commerce; Garry Clark and Susan Warren from the Ontario Prospectors Association; and Scott Jackson of the Ontario Forest Industries Association. They are here, of course, over the atrocious Bill 191.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Further introductions?

I’d like to take this opportunity to welcome today, in the Speaker’s gallery, Bette Jean Crews. Bette Jean is the president of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO FARMERS

Mr. Tim Hudak: My question is for the Premier. Ontario farmers are facing unfair subsidized competition from abroad, they’re facing rising costs of production, and they get hit by new, expensive government rules and regulations every time they turn around.

As you know, the International Plowing Match kicks off next week, and the Ontario PC caucus does not simply show up for the parade. We’ll be there talking to farmers all week long.

But sadly, Premier, the priorities of Ontario farm families have been long neglected by the Premier and the McGuinty government. Premier, is it that you stopped understanding the priorities of farmers, that you never understood them in the first place, or do you just find farmers easy to ignore?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I very much look forward to attending the plowing match, as we have every single year. I expect there will be good representation from all the parties, and that’s only right because the fact of the matter is that we owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the people who live in rural Ontario, particularly our farmers, who work day in and day out to provide us with top-quality, affordable food—some of the most affordable food anywhere on the planet, right here. So I very much look forward to attending the plowing match, and we look forward to having an opportunity to talk to farmers there.

I know that one of the things that my honourable colleagues are going to want to speak to them about is their continuing support—the farm community’s, that is—for the HST, because we have, in fact, reduced a number of their costs associated with the cost of farming, and I appreciate that support.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Here is the difference between Premier McGuinty and the Ontario PCs: Ontario PCs believe in supply management for the commodities that have it and a business risk management program for the other commodities that do not. And, Premier, we would go beyond grains and oilseeds.

Quite frankly, Premier, it has been difficult to tell where you stand on it for simply grains and oilseeds. One day you’re for it, then you’re against it, then you’re for it. You backtrack so often it is difficult to keep track.

Premier, I stand proudly behind farmers and also the MPP from Sarnia–Lambton, Bob Bailey, who has brought forward a private member’s bill to offer farmers a tax credit for food bank donations. Instead of supporting Bob Bailey’s good idea, you’ve played political games with his thoughtful and helpful initiative.

Premier, when it comes to Ontario farmers, when did you become so cynical?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I always appreciate the positive observations of my colleague, but let me just tell you about our reality. These are a number of provisions which we have put into place, none of which were supported by my colleague and his party opposite: There’s our new Animal Health Act to better protect against outbreaks like swine flu and to keep our foods safe, there’s our tax savings package of about $25 million of savings for farmers, and there’s our $1.8-billion investment in farm income and stabilization programs—not supported them.

I want to remind you of the record of the Conservative government: They cut $164 million from the Ministry of Agriculture’s budget, they shut down 42 local offices and replaced them with a telephone recording, and they sat idly by as Ontario lost 1,000 farmers every year.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, I come from a riding where agriculture is the number one industry. I’m proud of that. Whether I’m in Binbrook or Fenwick or travelling across our province from Middlesex to Prince Edward county, I’m hearing from farmers across this province that the McGuinty government has simply lost touch with the realities of farmers across our province today. Even if the Premier ever truly understood the concerns of Ontario farm families, he doesn’t even seem to try anymore.

In this year’s budget speech, you used the words “Samsung” and “Korea” three times as many as you used the word “farmers”—three times more for Samsung and Korea than for Ontario farmers struggling in our province today.

Farm families want to earn a living growing food. The Ontario PCs will provide an environment to do so. Why won’t the McGuinty government?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. Members will please come to order. I found it difficult to hear the question.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I’m right beside him, and I couldn’t hear.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): That’s not helpful, member from Renfrew.

Premier.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I know that the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs would like to speak to this.

Hon. Carol Mitchell: I must say that I’m absolutely delighted to be able to speak to this.

The leader of the official opposition made mention that he comes from an agricultural riding. Well, that’s what my riding is about, and I can say to you that the members on this side of the House stand proud of our record. We have invested $1.8 billion in income stabilization for our farmers.

I will put that up against their record. Their record was nothing—absolutely nothing. So for the Leader of the Opposition to stand in this House and say today that he’s on the side of farmers—my farmers—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

It’s not helpful having honourable members egging them on. I certainly hope that—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The members will please come to order.

I certainly hope that this enthusiasm that’s demonstrated here in the chamber today, you bring that all to Elgin county next week as we open the plowing match.

New question?

SMART METERS

Mr. Tim Hudak: Back to the Premier about his smart meter tax machines: Premier, you have turned the concept of smart meters into tax machines that have become extraordinarily expensive for Ontario families. Measurement Canada says they’re unreliable and giving false readings, and you yourself were forced to admit this week that smart meters are not actually conserving energy or saving families money as you promised. You appear to be backtracking once again and bringing in new rates of power on consumers.

Premier, I ask you: In face of all these shortcomings, in the face of your expensive experiment that is driving up the bills for Ontario families, why won’t you pause this program and fix it so it supports families, helps us conserve energy and doesn’t take another hit at the already tight pocketbooks of hard-working Ontario families?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I appreciate the opportunity to speak to this very important issue again. My honourable colleague is saying essentially that we need to freeze electricity rates in the province of Ontario. That is not something that we are prepared to do. My honourable colleague and his party did that when they were in government, and they deprived our electricity system of essential investment so that it might be modernized.

We are now picking up where they left off. We’ve been making dramatic investments in the modernization of an electricity system which is now much more reliable, much cleaner and much stronger. There are some costs associated with that. I think we need to be honest about that. Those costs are going to be reflected in our electricity bills. What we need to do, working together, is do as much as we possibly can to control those costs and keep them down as much as we can. But the fact of the matter is, electricity rates in the province of Ontario will be going up.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, the Ontario PCs have been clear. We are calling on you yet again today to freeze your smart meter tax machines that are attacking the pocketbooks of hard-working families across the province. You have admitted yourself that they are doing nothing to encourage conservation. The cost of the program is $1 billion and counting. My proposal to freeze this program to get it right is not new. When similar complaints about consumer protection, bad measurements and confusion over smart meters arose in Victoria in Australia, they suspended installation to get it right and protect consumers and encourage conservation.

Premier, why won’t you do the right thing? Follow the example from Australia and freeze your tax meter tax grab in place today.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I’m glad to see that my honourable colleague is looking to some other jurisdictions. I’d also recommend to him BC, Quebec, the US states, the UK, Italy, Sweden, New Zealand and Ireland. Here’s a quote from Prime Minister Cameron’s government in the UK: “The rollout of smart meters will play an important role in Great Britain’s transition to a low-carbon economy,” and it will “help us meet the long-term challenges we face in ensuring an affordable, secure and sustainable energy supply.”

Hon. Dwight Duncan: There’s an intelligent Conservative.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Here’s the really good news: There are still some progressive Conservatives on this planet. Too bad they’re not here in Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Here’s the problem, Premier: You have turned your smart meter initiative into an incredible mess. You’ve turned smart meters into nothing more than another Dalton McGuinty tax machine.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I remind the honourable member of my speech from yesterday.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, quite frankly, families across this province are leaving the hydro bill on the table for days and days. They don’t want to open that envelope to see what it reveals because hydro rates are spiking across the province. Families that have your smart machines installed are getting hit hard, no matter what they try to do to conserve energy, but the Premier wants to go headlong down this course, no matter its cost and no matter its impact on working families.

Premier, why won’t you do the right thing? Fix this program before putting another tax machine into Ontario homes across the province.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Here’s another great quote from today’s Toronto Star, the editorial:

“Yes, hydro rates are going up for everyone, but that is not attributable to smart meters. Rather, rates are rising because the Liberal government is investing billions in new power plants and transmission lines after years of neglect under the preceding Conservative and NDP administrations....

“Conservatives and New Democrats are both suggesting hydro rates should be frozen. The problem with this suggestion is that the money is still needed for investments in power plants and lines. If the money doesn’t come from ratepayers, it will have to come from taxpayers (as it did in the last year of the Conservative government under Ernie Eves).”

We’re going to continue to make these massive investments in generation and transmission. We will find ways, working with consumers—including through smart meters—to help them better manage their electricity bill.

SMART METERS

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. This government’s smart meter scheme is making life more expensive for families, and hydro experts warn that the billing system isn’t completely ready. Why, then, is the McGuinty government plowing forward, full steam ahead, with this wrong program?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Fiction is fun, but facts are helpful. I know that my colleague is making reference to the experience of Toronto Hydro ratepayers recently, so we thought we’d better take a look at some of the numbers, just to find out exactly what we’re talking about.

There were six billing periods where they compared time-of-use rates using a smart meter with what the bill would have been had they not been using time-of-use rates and a smart meter. With the smart meter, in the first of the six billing periods, there was a 12-cents-per-month decrease. For the next billing period, there was an 88-cents-a-month increase; the next one, $1.03 more; the next one, 96 cents a month more; the next one, 50 cents a month more; the next one, 20 cents a month more. On average, what we are talking about here is 61 cents more a month. That’s what we’re talking—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: This summer, Hydro One warned Ontario’s energy board that IBM’s smart meter billing system simply isn’t working properly. They said that the system sometimes produces incorrectly high estimates, resulting in incorrect bills that need to be fixed by hand.

“As additional customers are migrated to” time-of-use “pricing, the effort associated with these types of workarounds increases, as does the potential for customer impact.”

In other words, there’s a real risk that customers can be over-billed. Isn’t it time to slam the brakes on this scheme?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Again, with respect to the information that we have and the information that is being used by my honourable colleague, when you take a look at the actual cost of the new time-of-use rates, we’re talking about 61 cents a month more, just so that we have that in some perspective.

I must observe as well that it is passing strange that the leader of the NDP, who is generally a champion of the environment and of collective efforts to conserve electricity and to produce cleaner electricity, now stands against smart meters, when they’ve been received as an integral component of any intelligent strategy around the world to help ratepayers reduce their electricity usage and clean up our electricity system.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Everyone knows quite clearly that the smart meter scheme is not working for Ontario consumers. That’s the bottom line.

Now Hydro One is saying they have serious concerns that it’s being rushed. I’ll read from their letter again: “Hydro One believes that it is premature for the board to set mandatory” time-of-use “dates.” Why is the government plowing ahead with this scheme when there are very, very serious concerns that Ontarians are going to be fleeced?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: The fact is, we’ve been rolling this out for six years now. I wouldn’t describe that as a rush. We’ll continue working with Hydro One. We’ll continue working with our local distribution companies. We’ll continue working with ratepayers, and we’ll continue working with all Ontarians.

I’m absolutely convinced that among Ontarians there’s a very strong consensus on a couple of fronts. One, we’ve got to continue to modernize our electricity system. We’ve got to continue to make the investments in new generation and new transmission. At the same time, we have to work together to ensure that homeowners, businesses, schools and hospitals can better manage their electricity bills. Smart meters are an important component of that self-management, so we’re going to continue to move ahead with that and move with Ontarians when it comes to doing the right thing for our electricity system and our electricity bills.

HYDRO RATES

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is for the Premier as well. Family budgets are being squeezed and the Premier won’t say whether hydro rates will go up again, thanks to his not-so-smart-meter scheme.

Tracey Bissett from Brantford says that she takes care of a husband with mental illness and three children with physical disabilities and can’t afford the $300-a-month hydro bill. She writes, “I need to sleep in the night, not adjust my

schedule to accommodate this stupid meter.”

Why can’t the Premier tell Ms. Bissett and her family that daytime rates are not going to go up?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: As I mentioned a moment ago, using the data itself, on average electricity costs are going up 61 cents more a month when you use time-of-use rates and a smart meter.

I know, again, that there is consensus among Ontarians that we have to make that investment in a dilapidated electricity system. We have to expand our capacity at Niagara Falls. We have to harness more hydroelectric capacity in northern Ontario. We have to put in place more gas-fired generation. We also believe it’s very important to exploit exciting opportunities when it comes to green energy; that’s harnessing energy from the wind and the sun. There is a very strong consensus in that regard.

I think there’s also a profound understanding that making those kinds of investments costs money, and that will ultimately be reflected in our electricity bills. That’s why we’ll continue to work together to find ways to manage those bills.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Hundreds and hundreds of stories of hydro bill shocks are flooding my email box. Vernon Chiang writes this: “My summer bill ... is usually about $244. Last month, it was a whopping $408.” Sandra King from Hamilton says that after her smart meter was installed, her hydro bill jumped $200.

How can the Premier justify a program that has already cost more than $1 billion, some $1.5 billion, forces hydro bills through the roof and doesn’t reduce people’s energy costs?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: My honourable colleague maintains that she has a genuine interest in helping families with some of their costs, but when we put forward a personal income tax cut of $200 per adult, they voted against that. When we put forward our transition benefit to help families, $1,000, they voted against that. When we put forward our new sales tax credit of $1,040 for a family of four, she voted against that. Our northern Ontario energy credit, up to $200 per family and specifically related to energy—she voted against that.

On the one hand, my colleague stands up in the House and tells us she’s very concerned about the impact of electricity costs on families, but every single time we give her and her colleagues an opportunity to vote in favour of an initiative that helps lower costs on the backs of families, she doesn’t support that. So I’d ask her to look at herself when it comes to exactly where she stands when helping Ontario families.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: A budget that contains $4.5 billion of corporate tax cuts is not my idea of a good thing, and that’s why we voted against it, quite frankly.

Even those people who are taking measures to conserve energy cannot escape rising bills. Beverley Reid from Barrie says, “The bill I just got was $121 higher ... I don’t use my dishwasher and ... do all laundry late at night or on weekends. I even hang up my clothes and don’t use the dryer.”

Does the Premier agree that for more than $1 billion, we could have invested perhaps in conservation and kept hydro rates affordable for people like Ms. Reid?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: My honourable colleague says she’s against a budget that cut taxes $4.5 billion for businesses. What she failed to note is that they also cut taxes for Ontarians by $12 billion.

I want to remind my honourable colleague that when they formed the government, they increased electricity prices 40% in their one term. I want to remind her that they promised 1,800 megawatts of wind power by 2012 in their 2007 platform; by 2011 we will have 2,300 megawatts of wind power. They opposed our Samsung initiative that has brought on a $7-billion private sector investment, creating 16,000 jobs.

The fact of the matter is, they don’t have an energy plan. They’re for conservation one day; they’re against it another day. They’re in favour of smart meters one day; they’re against—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: My question is to the Premier. Bob Bailey, MPP for Sarnia–Lambton and proud member of the Ontario PC caucus, has a bill regarding a food bank donation tax credit for farmers up for debate this afternoon. The bill offers some relief through a tax credit when farmers donate unsold produce and food to their local food banks. I anticipate that the McGuinty Liberals will support the bill because they hastily assembled a non-binding resolution that calls for pretty much the same thing as our bill.

Premier, my question is: Why didn’t you bring forward government legislation to help farm families with a food bank donation tax credit yourself, like the Ontario Federation of Agriculture requested in the pre-hearings for the last budget?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs.

Hon. Carol Mitchell: I really do appreciate speaking to this. One of the things—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Members will please come to order. The minister has not even had a chance to answer, and you are already heckling her.

Minister?

Hon. Carol Mitchell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

One of the things that I wanted to speak about specifically was the work that has been done by this side of the House on the poverty reduction strategy—and the 25 in 5. There have been a number of motions that have come forward that look at a total strategy. This is one of the proposed tax credits for food donations that have been brought forward by Lou Rinaldi, the member from Northumberland; and the member from Sarnia–Lambton—and there are some fundamental differences.

I do want to thank the farmers, many of whom are donating food today—food processors and farmers who have entered into agreements with food banks. I sincerely want to thank them for all of their donations, and their recognition that local food makes a—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: Back to the Premier: It’s a hard time for farm families. While the Premier wants to talk about his HST and eco taxes, their priority is to manage the loss of $143 million in farm support. The problems with your smart meters won’t help. Maybe the Premier doesn’t know this, but livestock won’t wait for time of use and farmers don’t have the margin to afford your expensive and failing hydro experiments.

The choice facing Ontario’s farm families is to decide who is listening to their priorities. The Ontario PC caucus will be at the plowing match for more than just the parade. We have put forward a tax credit for them.

If the McGuinty Liberals truly support farm families, will you agree here and now to pass all stages of Bob Bailey’s bill immediately?

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock for a moment, please. I’d remind the honourable member that my statement from yesterday did not just refer to the leaders of respective parties, but it was for all members of the House. The honourable member Bob Bailey represents the riding of Sarnia–Lambton, as does Lou Rinaldi represent the riding of Northumberland, and I remind—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): That’s why I stopped the clock, and I’m going to offer some leniency as we get ourselves accustomed to using riding names.

Minister?

Hon. Carol Mitchell: I’m very pleased to respond again. One of the things that this side of the House has worked very hard on with the coalition is income stabilization for our farmers. I want to congratulate the work of the coalition.

We get that farmers are looking for programs that are bankable, predictable and stable. The tax credit is another part of that. More importantly, what we are working on and what we have provided is $1.8 billion in income stabilization, and for the longer term, through the HST, the $25 million in savings and the work that we are doing with the coalition.

We also cannot lose sight of the extension for the grains and oilseeds. This is a program that was designed by the commodity groups. We are committed to working with the commodity groups. We understand that the stabilization of the farm income—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Premier. We have in the galleries members from various communities in the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, and amongst them is their Grand Chief, Stan Beardy. He’s asking me to ask you the following question:

“As the leader of Ontario, you promised a new relationship with Ontario’s First Nations people.

“As the leader of Ontario, you promised last fall to the Nishnawbe Aski people that you would not pass the Far North planning act, Bill 191, unless it met with our consent.

“As leader of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, I am telling you that Bill 191 does not meet with our consent.

“As the leader of the Nishnawbe Aski people, I am asking you, the leader of Ontario: Will you keep your promises?”

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I’m pleased to receive the question. I know that there’s a tremendous interest in Bill 191 and how to get everyone to find a way to develop the north and do it in a way that’s in keeping with our desire to not only ensure that all northerners participate in that growth, including our aboriginal communities, but also in a way that respects our desire to preserve a natural environment for our children.

We’ve gone through a lengthy consultation process, we have worked very closely with our aboriginal communities, and we now find ourselves at a point where it’s necessary for us to move forward. One of the assurances I do want to provide Grand Chief Stan Beardy and all our aboriginal communities is that we will, if requested, put in place an advisory committee comprised one half of representatives of our aboriginal communities so that they can, on an ongoing basis, have continuing influence as we shape this policy to ensure that we get it right.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Premier, nobody buys it. First Nations don’t buy it, community leaders in northern Ontario don’t buy it and chambers of commerce in northern Ontario don’t buy it. But I bring you back to the question that Chief Beardy is asking you, and I’ll read his question again:

“As the leader of Ontario, you promised a new relationship with Ontario’s First Nations people.

“As the leader of Ontario, you promised last fall to the Nishnawbe Aski people that you would not pass the Far North planning act, Bill 191, unless it met with our consent.

“As leader of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, I am telling you that Bill 191 does not meet with our consent.

“As the leader of the Nishnawbe Aski people, I am asking you, the leader of Ontario: Will you keep your promises?”

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I very much appreciate the question. One of the references in the question itself had something to do with the state of the relationship between our government and our First Nation communities. I’m very proud of the work that we have done together to develop a collaborative relationship, a respectful relationship and a relationship that has resulted in measurable improvements. We have everything from a new ministry exclusively devoted to those concerns of our aboriginal community. We have a new gaming agreement.

We have, coming out of the Ipperwash tragedy, a number of recommendations that were put forward, which we have adopted virtually in their entirety. And we have devoted all kinds of new resources in education and health care to enhance quality of life insofar as our aboriginal communities are concerned. We will continue to find a way through the Far North Act and Bill 191—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

PRESCRIPTION DRUG ABUSE

Mr. Rick Johnson: My question is to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. My constituents have long been concerned about the issue of narcotics or prescription-based drugs being abused in their communities. They worry that everyday moms, dads and youth can easily fall into this addiction. These drugs are being abused throughout Ontario. Since 1991, oxycodone-containing medications rose by 900%. We have heard that a number of First Nations communities have declared a state of emergency over the abuse of prescription narcotics, particularly oxycodone-containing drugs, or the rising number of narcotic-related deaths.

My constituents would like to know what the government is doing to support the treatment of addictions and substance abuse.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you to the member for Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock for this question.

There is no question that the abuse of prescription narcotics such as OxyContin and Percocet is increasing in Ontario, and there is no question that the results are absolutely devastating. We simply must take action, and we must take it now.

When it comes to the treatment of addictions, we’re currently funding approximately 150 programs across the province for the treatment of substance abuse and gambling. These programs include withdrawal management, community counselling, residential treatment and support services.

Since 2003, we have increased funding for the treatment of substance abuse by 65%. We’re taking strong action to save lives and to improve health outcomes for Ontarians by curbing the abuse, addiction and diversion of these very powerful drugs—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Rick Johnson: My constituents will be pleased to hear that this government is working diligently to ensure that individuals who are addicted to drugs have the supports necessary to help them live productive lives. However, my constituents are concerned that not enough is being done to restrict the sale of these narcotics.

The minister mentioned that there is a growing abuse of prescription narcotics and controlled substances, including oxycodone, in this province. Not only is this costing Ontarians in their pocketbooks; it is costing them their lives.

Could the minister please tell this House what the government is doing to ensure that the growing abuse of prescription drugs comes to an end in this province?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: This is an issue that is very important for all of us on all sides of the House. That’s why yesterday I did respond to one of the recommendations from the all-party Select Committee on Mental Health and Addictions. I think all members of that committee heard first-hand the devastating impact of prescription drug abuse. Our Oakville MPP, Kevin Flynn, did a remarkable job of chairing that committee.

As part of our narcotics strategy, we are proposing that we would develop a database that will track the prescribers, the dispensers and the patients using prescription narcotics. By tracking the use, we would be able to identify the outliers: those physicians who are prescribing far more than they should, those pharmacists that are dispensing more than they—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

GOVERNMENT’S RECORD

Mr. Randy Hillier: My question is to the Premier. Premier, you’ve had a really busy summer. Apart from catching your own caucus by surprise, you sold out our civil liberties with the G20 regulation allowing for arbitrary arrests. You sold out northerners and First Nations with your Far North Act. What do your civil liberties-destroying G20 regulation and your economy-destroying Far North Act have in common?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Attorney General.

Hon. Christopher Bentley: Thank you very much for the question. Boy, what an interesting question. Although I won’t speak to the specific cases that are resulting from the G20, I just want to say this: We have a very good record in the province of Ontario, and have for many, many years, of doing whatever we can do to find that perfect balance between respect for the rights of the individual and respect—

Mr. John Yakabuski: I’ll tell you what you’re good at, Chris; it’s taxing.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I have been patient with the member from Renfrew for 35 minutes of question period, and I will have to warn the honourable member from Renfrew.

Please continue.

Hon. Christopher Bentley: —and respect for the rights of the rest. In the middle of that, in the middle of that very difficult balance, are the police, and frankly, I think the police, day in and day out, demonstrate their commitment to public safety in the province of Ontario. I’ll stand with the police and support the great work that they do.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Randy Hillier: Again to the Premier: With the G20 regulation, Premier McGuinty sold out Liberals who believed in the civil liberties

section of Trudeau’s charter. With the Far North Act, Premier McGuinty sold out Liberals who believed in the aboriginal rights guaranteed by Trudeau’s baby. We always said that the Liberals would sell their own child if they had to; now they’ve shown it to be true.

Premier, what motivates you to backtrack on your principles, and which sections of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms will your government abandon next?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: We are the government that called the Dudley George inquiry. We’re the government that’s committed to implement the results of the Dudley George inquiry. We’re the government of the new relationship. We’re the government of making sure that we have a respectful approach to aboriginal peoples. We are the government that wants to see development in the Far North benefiting the people of the Far North, driven by the people of the Far North—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The honourable member knows that if one is dissatisfied with an answer, they have the ability to call for a late show.

Minister?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I am happy to put the record that we have developed over the last seven years over the eight and a half years that preceded it any minute of the day. Line by line, any time, let’s put them up.

PEST CONTROL

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Bedbugs are a growing health concern and a nuisance to thousands of Ontarians. For two whole years, Toronto Public Health has been seeking provincial funding to control bedbug outbreaks. Why is this government delaying funding and allowing the current bedbug outbreak to spread?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: It’s a very important issue and we have to be very, very serious about this particular issue. We, as a government, and I’m sure all parties, want to do whatever we can to ensure that this problem is eradicated as quickly as possible. I am very proud of our member Mike Colle, who is—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

Thank you.

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: The member for Eglinton–Lawrence—your new protocol is an important one, so I apologize for mentioning him by name, but I think he has a great initiative. It is an initiative that we should pay very close attention to, and I look forward to seeing that private member’s bill work its way through the system.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Meanwhile, bedbugs are proliferating across Ontario and this government is doing nothing. Tenants in Toronto and all over Ontario continue to endure the problem of bedbugs.

One important way to control bedbugs is to stop landlords from renting infested units to unsuspecting tenants. Will the government support landlord licensing as a way of ensuring that landlords keep units bedbug-free?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: I think the member knows full well that tenants have some rights. If they believe that those rights are being violated because the units aren’t being maintained properly, they have recourse to the Landlord and Tenant Board. It is a very important board that we set up and strengthened. So my advice to those tenants would certainly be, if you have those concerns, to lodge an appeal to the Landlord and Tenant Board.

STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT

Mr. Charles Sousa: My question is to the Minister of Education. A recent report released by Statistics Canada found that Ontario students are lagging behind the rest of the country with respect to graduation rates.

The Statistics Canada report showed that Ontario’s upper secondary graduation rate is 74%. This ranks us eighth when compared to the 12 other provinces and territories in Canada, below the Canadian average of 77% and the OECD average of 81%.

Minister, we often speak of our increasing grad rates, but this report concerns me, my constituents and teachers in my community as it seems to cast a shadow on the success of our students.

Minister, does this report concern you, and how does it relate to the graduation rates that our government announced earlier in the year?

Hon. Leona Dombrowsky: I very much appreciate the question from the honourable member. This government has been focused on student success since coming to office. We were very, very disturbed when we came to office, and only 68% of students in secondary schools were graduating at the time.

We have worked very hard with teachers. I know teachers have engaged students and their families to understand how we can better enable them to be more successful. As a result of the efforts of the folks in the classroom, and particularly the students—who understand why it is important that they graduate, that they need that secondary school diploma to go on and gain post-secondary training, whether at college or university or in an apprenticeship—our graduation rate is now 79%.

We will continue to press for more improvement for our kids. Our kids deserve that effort, and we are committed to that. Our kids have increased their performance in our classrooms.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Charles Sousa: Minister, we all know that graduation is a necessary step on the road to post-secondary studies and that the task of securing apprenticeships and good jobs is made easier with a high school diploma.

Our government has been very proud of the fact that graduation rates have increased since 2003, but there are still a number of students, some in certain cultural groups, who fail to graduate high school. These students may need an extra push or support to make it to graduation, but it’s clear their graduation will benefit the students and, ultimately, the province.

Minister, what is your ministry doing to ensure that our students are getting the support they need to succeed, to graduate and to move on to further studies and the workplace?

Hon. Leona Dombrowsky: Our government has been very focused on ensuring that students remain in school, and that was why we brought in our Learning to 18 initiative.

We’ve worked with schools to ensure that they have the tools. They are now implementing the specialist high-skills majors program. This is a program that shows visitors to our country what is happening in our secondary schools, how it is enabling our young people to be successful.

We also have expanded co-operative education programs. We have dual credit programs where students are able to earn credits for high school credit and also for college credit, thereby incenting them to pursue a post-secondary career in college.

Since coming to government, we now have in the province 52,500 more students graduating from our schools. That’s because of the focus of this government and our schools to support students so they can be successful and get that secondary school diploma—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

ANIMAL PROTECTION

Mr. Frank Klees: To the Minister of Community Safety: On May 12, I put a question to the former Minister of Community Safety and asked him to stop the OSPCA’s euthanasia plan at its Newmarket shelter. At that time, the minister claimed that he had no authority to intervene. In the hours following, 102 animals were unnecessarily killed, and Ontarians were appalled that the best the minister of the day could do was to claim he had no authority to intervene.

Since then, literally thousands of petitions have been signed in support of a resolution before this House that calls on the government to review the powers and authority of the OSPCA with a view to bringing it under the jurisdiction and authority of the provincial government.

I want to know from this minister: Does he believe that the Ontario government, that his ministry, should in fact have oversight of the OSPCA?

Hon. James J. Bradley: The member would remember that our government has clamped down on animal abusers by updating and strengthening Ontario’s animal welfare laws for the first time in an entire century. We’ve established the toughest rules in Canada, including jail and a potential lifetime ownership ban for those who mistreat animals.

We substantially revised and updated the OSPCA Act to provide for more stringent penalties for animal abuse.

As well, we have in fact taken the politics out of animal welfare in Ontario and placed the program in the hands of trained experts, where it belongs.

Our government has developed a system that is consistent with so many other jurisdictions in North America and around the world. We have confidence in our experts, who are trained and have been developed, and we’ll continue to work with our partners to continue to build on the skills of—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Frank Klees: The new Minister of Community Safety should inform himself of exactly how trained those people are. The reason the resolution is before the House is because the reality is that those agents of the OSPCA—who essentially have police authority; they have the authority to lay criminal charges—receive less training than security guards at malls in this province. It’s a disgrace.

What is it that the minister needs to know that will convince him that the OSPCA is desperately in need of provincial oversight so that, in fact, the intent of that legislation can be carried out with responsibility? Will the new minister agree to consult with stakeholders to inform himself as to the need of provincial oversight for the OSPCA?

Hon. James J. Bradley: The member made reference to a certain situation, and he knows that an independent review is being headed by Dr. Alan Meek, former dean of the Ontario Veterinary College at the University of Guelph, and retired Justice Patrick LeSage.

But while your leader is here today, I was glad that he was here when you asked this question, and that is because, consistently, the former government and members of the Conservative caucus have said that they do not want to increase bureaucracy. They do not want to expand expenditures into new areas.

In essence, what the member is proposing is that a new bureaucracy be set up in the province of Ontario at a great cost to the people of this province. I know that my friend from Niagara, who gets up and rails against the government any time he thinks this is happening, is not likely going to be in agreement with the implications of the proposal that you have made to this government.

LABOUR DISPUTE

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question’s to the Premier. Workers at ECP in Brantford have been walking the picket line since August 23, 2008. The factory was bought out four years ago by an American company that demanded major concessions from its workers. The company brought in scabs early on in the process of this dispute, which only prolonged the strike.

When will the McGuinty government bring fairness back to labour relations in this province and support anti-scab legislation?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Labour.

Hon. Peter Fonseca: This question gives me an opportunity to thank the member from Brant, who has been working so hard on behalf of his constituents on this matter.

Yes, it’s always unfortunate when there is a labour dispute and it causes disruption in the lives of hard-working families, but the member for Brant is doing the right thing. He’s reaching out to his constituents. He has come to me on a number of occasions and explained the impact of the strike on the community. Like the member from Brant, our focus is always to work with the parties, to assist the parties, so they can get a collective agreement done.

Our mediator is in active discussions with the parties at this time. He’s pushing them to come back to the table, and the ministry is keeping me informed of the progress that is happening.

On this side of the House, we respect the collective bargaining process, and our record speaks for itself. We’ve had the best record since stats have been—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Back to the Premier. Today, I’m going to actually join, once again—and I’ve done it several times already—the 84 striking workers at USW Local 1-500 on their picket line. These strikers have been walking the line for over two years, and not a single one of them has crossed that picket line.

But, you see, Premier, the company also has another plant in Langley, BC. At that plant a labour dispute was settled quickly. Why? Because that province has a law that tells the company, “Sorry, you can’t bring in scabs, so you’d just better get yourselves back to the bargaining table and hammer out a collective agreement with your workers.”

Why is our Premier here in Ontario siding with the company and telling them, “Scabs are okay”?

Hon. Peter Fonseca: I reject that member’s approach when it comes to labour relations. Our government understands that fair and stable labour relations are the cornerstone of Ontario’s economic success.

I will not take advice from that member or that party when they ripped up hundreds of thousands of collective agreements for our teachers—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The members will please come to order.

Minister?

Hon. Peter Fonseca: On this side of the House, we honour existing contracts. We’ve seen what the NDP does to labour relations and—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Hamilton East, your member asked the question. I would like her to be able to hear the answer.

Mr. Paul Miller: There is no answer.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): This is the final warning for the member from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek as well.

New question.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mrs. Liz Sandals: My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. The Guelph poverty task force is always looking at ways of improving the lives of seniors, people with disabilities and those living on fixed incomes. These concerns were only heightened by the global economic slowdown, which affected the lives of millions.

I’m happy to see the progress made on our poverty reduction strategy and our tax reform package, which has resulted in tax cuts for 93% of Ontarians. My constituents are thrilled that Ontario is funding new affordable housing for seniors at St. Joseph’s in Guelph.

Can the minister please outline the steps our government is taking to make housing more affordable for those living on low and fixed incomes?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: I want to thank the member for the question and for being such a tireless advocate for affordable housing in her community and across Ontario.

There’s no question that our government is committed to enhancing the lives of those who live on low or fixed incomes in the province of Ontario. The McGuinty government is the first government to be introducing a long-term affordable housing strategy. To date, we have already committed to building and repairing more than 76,000 affordable housing units across the province. In addition to this commitment, our government is also delivering more than 35,000 rent supplements to help make rent more affordable.

Although we, as a government, understand there is more to do, I am happy to say that our government is committed to getting it right and that we will continue to work with our partners.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mrs. Liz Sandals: I’m pleased to hear the progress our government is making on affordable housing. While it’s unfortunate that past governments didn’t see the importance of a long-term housing strategy, I’m relieved to hear that we are moving forward with one to help enhance the lives of those living on low and fixed incomes.

But I do have one more question about our government’s commitment to affordable housing. Our latest budget outlines some very important goals, but I noticed that the minister’s response didn’t indicate new financial commitments for affordable housing in Ontario. Could the minister please outline what recent commitments our government has made to affordable housing?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: I am pleased to inform the member that, even through the economic downturn, our government has remained committed to enhancing the lives of those living on low incomes. In 2009, our government entered into an agreement with the federal government to invest heavily in affordable housing. It will see an unprecedented $1.2 billion invested over a two-year period. Over half the money has already flowed to our municipalities, and construction is going on all across Ontario for affordable housing.

Our commitment will see $704 million invested in repairing social housing units to make them more energy-efficient and accessible. We will also invest $540 million in affordable housing program extensions to create new affordable housing units for low-income seniors and the disabled.

We’re about building units—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

MANUFACTURING JOBS

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is for the Minister of Economic Development and Trade. On Tuesday afternoon, company officials of Abbott Laboratories in Brockville, which employs 157 people, confirmed that those workers will be thrown out of a job when the doors close in the fall of 2012. This plant manufactures nutritional formulas and is one of the oldest and most established companies in that community. Abbott employs 83,000 people around the world, and this plant represents its only formula manufacturing plant in Canada.

Will the minister please tell this House why, at a time when Ontarians should be seeing signs of economic recovery in the province, workers at Abbott Laboratories in Brockville are waiting for the doors to close?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: Let me first say how difficult it is for all of us in this House to hear of Abbott closing their facility in that region over the course of the next two years. We’re very concerned and, in fact, very surprised. This government has had a long-standing relationship with Abbott. We meet with Abbott executives, here in Canada as well as in Chicago, on a regular basis, so we were surprised that we were not aware that this may come, especially on the heels of significant investment that has been made in this particular facility.

We were on the phone yesterday when the news became public, and we are determined to reach the executives who have been making these decisions to see if there may be anything at all we could share with them that would help in this decision-making process—and hope that it perhaps isn’t a final one.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Premier, you’re from eastern Ontario—at least, you used to be. Can you lean over and tell the minister that she can do better?

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): You don’t need to do that. You also need to be speaking through the Chair.

Mr. Steve Clark: Speaker, through you, I’m told that one of the issues behind the closure of Abbott Laboratories is the inability of this facility to manufacture product in plastic containers. The shutdown announcement comes after the company recently put millions of dollars into environmental compliance issues.

Minister, there’s a two-year window until this latest facility joins the list of shuttered plants in Leeds–Grenville. Will you join me, will you work with levels of government and make the commitment to those 157 Abbott workers in Brockville to work with the company and save those jobs? Will you do it today, Minister?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I’m delighted to see that there is some kind of a reversal going on in that particular party.

Let me tell you this: For the first time in many years, this Ontario government has offered special programming, especially for the pharmaceutical industry, for all kinds of industries that are working on high technologies, including companies like Abbott.

You, sir, through the Speaker, are a member who opposed every single measure that we brought forward in this House to assist companies to be more productive, to be more efficient, to adopt new, clean, green technologies in their facilities. So it is appalling to see that when there are many people who face the uncertainty of jobs in his own community, he would dare to come in this House and be political, while this government has moved forward to assist companies to be more productive—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

TECHNOLOGY IN SCHOOLS

Mr. Rosario Marchese: My question is to the Premier. Yesterday the Premier said that cellphones and smart phones should be allowed in the classroom.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Members will please come to order. Order.

Member from Trinity–Spadina.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Yesterday the Premier said that cellphones and smart phones should be allowed in the classroom. LOL, Premier. What was the Premier thinking?

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. I remind the honourable member about the use of props in the chamber. If I had my way, I would be banning BlackBerrys in this chamber.

Premier?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: It’s always delightful to receive a question from our resident thespian, who I know does so always with good humour and with a tremendous amount of goodwill. I appreciate the opportunity to speak to this. Let me just be very clear with a few statements.

First of all, texting or the use of cellphones to socialize during class is a distraction and it does not belong in a classroom, period. Secondly, we trust teachers, boards and parents to make the right call when it comes to ever-changing technologies. If those technologies can help our students learn, that’s a good thing. If they don’t, if they’re a distraction, then they should not be in the classroom. It’s as simple as that.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: OMG, Speaker. People are outraged by your comments. Here’s what they’re saying:

“Fancy gadgets don’t develop literacy or mathematical skills. They’re just more distraction in an already crazy world.”

And: “I work in a college where students can’t spell and can’t work through a simple math question. If we were to allow phones etc. in class, instructors couldn’t get through a lecture without multiple interruptions.”

I know the Premier and I aren’t BFFs, but will he retract his statement ASAP?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: As I say, always entertaining. But you know, there was a time when slide rules were not permitted inside Ontario classrooms. There was a time when calculators were not permitted inside Ontario classrooms. There was a time, in fact, when laptops were not permitted inside Ontario classrooms.

I think the point I’m making is that technologies are ever-changing and we have a tremendous amount of faith in our parents, teachers, school boards and school administrators to make a call, when they determine that this technology might be of some benefit to students and to learning, to incorporate that as part of a lesson plan. If it’s purely distraction, then of course those kinds of things should be kept outside the classroom, and that’s where we stand on this.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The time for question period has ended. There being no deferred votes, this House stands recessed until 1 p.m. this afternoon.

The House recessed from 1137 to 1300.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

LISA LAFLAMME

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate another outstanding member of the Kitchener–Waterloo community: Lisa LaFlamme. Lisa was named the successor to Lloyd Robertson as host of CTV National News in July of this year.

She started her career in her hometown of Kitchener at the CTV affiliate CKCO in 1988 as a copywriter and script assistant. One year later, she was promoted to radio news reporter, and by 1991, Lisa was on television, serving as a reporter and anchor for CKCO News. I remember well being interviewed by her on many occasions.

From that point forward, Lisa’s career has been on a constant upward trajectory. More recently, as national affairs correspondent for CTV, she has travelled the world, courageously reporting from Iraq and Afghanistan, and she was embedded with the Canadian military on a 12-day hunt for the Taliban in the extremely dangerous Kandahar region.

Lisa has become a trailblazer for women in Canadian news broadcasting. She has received five Gemini nominations in the best news anchor category and been the recent recipient of an honorary doctor of laws degree from Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo. She was also awarded the distinguished Canadian award from the University of Ottawa.

On behalf of all Ontarians, I would like to congratulate Lisa and wish her all the best in her new role as host of CTV National News.

ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE

Mrs. Donna H. Cansfield: I would like to take a moment to recognize that next Tuesday is World Alzheimer’s Day. This is an extraordinary burden that has been placed on many countries around the world, but let’s just talk for a moment about Canada.

In fact, we have 500,000 people suffering with Alzheimer-related dementia disease. They anticipate that one in three baby boomers will have Alzheimer’s. That’s attributable, in the next number of years, to 1.1 million people in Canada with this disease, so you’re going from $15 billion to $159 billion.

Ours is a system that deals with the curative, so once you are ill, we fix you. But I suggest that what we need to do, and what’s planned by the Ontario Alzheimer Society in the bill that was presented, is to look at prevention and how we can delay the onset of Alzheimer’s or, in fact, prevent it in those who may not get it at all simply by encoura