Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 36B (36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-36b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 368 - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, April23, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS,Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN,, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIIIYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Bon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, lion. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTIIERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, lion. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River ll eights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Vcrendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. I' .C. P.C. N.D.P. PC. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. PC. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C NDI' I'.C. N.DI' N.D.I' PC. N Dl' I'.C I' C. I'.C I'.C. N.D I'

2097 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, Apri123, 1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Jacqueline Alexander, Theresa Skrzypczau, Michael Pauk and others praying that the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Yvonne Ferrand, Gerry Ferrand, Susanne Kerelluke and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospitals food services. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition ofD.T. LeGros, S. Cartman, W. Cooper and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospitals food services. Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): I beg to present the petition of Nancy Brooks, Agnes Champagne, A. Fuentes and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospitals foods services. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I beg to present the petition of Mary Ellen Hall, Marilyn Barthelette, Semelka Anther and others praying that the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospitals food services.

READING AND RECEI VING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Cor poration (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than 1,000 healt h care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result , with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, pre pared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one st udy by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sect or) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expensive."; and

2098 LEGI SL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. * (13 35) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): I would like to table for the House the interim report of the Manitoba Water Commission. Hon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister charged with the administration of The Workers Compensation Act): I have three reports to table: the Annual Report of the Workers Compensation Board for 19 97; the Appeal Commission Annual Report for the Workers Compensation 19 97; and copies of the Five-Year Plan for Workers Compensation. MINISTERI AL STATEMENTS Winpak Ltd. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism): I have a statement for the House. I have copies.

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to congratulate the board of directors of Winnipeg's Winpak Ltd. for their decision yesterday to invest $25 million for a new production facility in Winnipeg to manufacture and distribute biaxially oriented polyamide film. Winpak and Nichimen Corporation have signed a memorandum of understanding to form a joint venture for this initiative which will create 50 new full-time positions.

This announcement follows on the heels of Winpak's $34- million expansion of their Winnipeg plant which will add another 80 full-time positions to their current workforce of 300 employees. Together, these developments will create a minimum of 13 0 new full time jobs and a $59-mill ion investment in our province. This clearly establishes Winnipeg as the core of Winpak's North American operations. Madam Speaker, this announcement reiterates the belief of business people, government and Manitobans as a whole that the provincial economy is booming.

More Manitobans are working today than at any other time in the history of our province. Manitoba is the only province that is positioned to have its seventh consecutive year of growth in the private sector capital investment. In conclusion, I would like to again commend the board of directors, management, particularly Winpak Lt d.'s president and CEO, Mr. Bob Lavery, and, most importantly. the Winpak employees for making this exciting announcement possible. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood) : I am pleased to join with the honourable minister opposite in congratulating Winpak, a company that began its life I believe when the NDP was in government, which has gone on to expand and to develop a niche for itself as one of the pre-eminent packaging firms in North America- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Sale: As I said. the company has gone on to develop a strong niche in a very large and competitive market in North America and has done very well.

I had the opportunity coincidentally to travel with a member of their staff recently and to hear first-hand from him about the exciting developments in the company, both here in Winnipeg and in its Toronto offices and plant. Madam Speaker. I think this is a very good development for Manitoba in the addition of good, long-term, permanent and stable jobs in this company. I would just note, however, that the last paragraph on the first page of the announcement speaks about the booming economy. Indeed, in many ways, from an economic perspective, that is true.

Unfortunately, we continue to see a disconnect between the economy and the needs of ordinary people whose needs continue not to be met very well as their wages fall and as over 6,000 of them found it necessary to leave our province in the last year to seek opportunities in Saskatchewan and in other provinces.

April 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2099 So we welcome the development of these full- time jobs and wish this exemplary company well in its continued development in our province and in its future. Thank you, Madam Speaker. *( 13 40) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 203-The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act

(2) Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 203 , The Legis lative Assembly Amendment Act (2) (Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'Assemblee legislative). Madam Speaker, this is a bill we have introduced in previous sessions, and our motto on this is, if at first you do not succeed, try, try again. It is a bill that would introduce an elected Speaker into this Legislature. I would say that we wish nothing more than to bring ourselves into the kind of parliamentary reform that we have seen in other provinces, including our national Parliament.

I say to the people of Manitoba, through you, and to the government, which is the one that will decide on this matter, now is the time to be bringing in real parliamentary reform in this Legislature and having an elected Speaker. This bill will accomplish that. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty four Grade 5 students from Christ The King School under the direction of Mrs. Shirley Gendron.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render). We also have 13 English as a Second Language students from the Applied Li nguistic Centre under the direction of Ms. Greta Gibson. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Winnipeg Floodway Operation Protocol Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositi on): A few minutes ago we received the interim report that the government had received three weeks ago on the review of the Red River flood. I want to ask a number of questions pursuant to that report.

On April 24, I asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) a number of questions about the flow of water through the floodway and he responded that opening up the floodway beyond 59,000 would have impacts both downstream and upstream and that they would have to use human judgment in the application of the floodway, obviously a point he made in this Legis lature. This report indicates that the operation of the floodway- the protocol was not followed during the flood of 19 97. I would like to ask the Premier: who made that decision not to follow the protocol, and what was its impact on residents in the Red River Valley? Hon.

Glen Cum mings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, we have always acknowledged that the operation of the flood way was at 24.5. In reviewing the implications of that, the department has indicated that for a number of years 24.5 was the operational median which they looked to, but that policy was not written and appropriately conveyed to everyone, including the media and members of this House. But that was not operating any differently than the gates have been operated for a significant period of time.

The second part of the question, in terms of what are the known or what would be the estimated impacts of anything that would have occurred as a result of the operation of the gate, that is still pending, given the results of some studies and some modelling being done on behalfo f the commission. That information will be shared as soon as we have it.

210 0 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23 , 19 98 Flood Forecast Grande Pointe Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I did not get the answer to the question of who made that decision in government. A second question: on May 5, 19 97, I asked a number of questions about the flooding at Grande Pointe. The report indicates that the forecasts were eight feet of f initially at Grande Pointe, and the timing was off for those 15 0 families, the majority of which were ultimately flooded. The report goes on to say that the people were ill prepared based on those predictions that were made.

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister: have any of the layoffs and firings and reductions of staff in the Department ofNa tural Resources, have any of those decisions made by the government and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) led to the inaccurate predictions on flooding at the Grande Pointe area? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the short answer is no, but I want to make it very clear that there is known difficulty in providing modelling, and direct information flowing from the modelling, when the water begins to flow at the extreme distances that it did across and overland and coming in from sometimes unpredictable areas. The issue that the opposition consistently raised had more to do with monitoring than anything else and the question of whether or not there was adequate information coming from the monitoring to go into the modelling that we have been using.

The fact is that budget was enhanced by the province over the last couple of years, but we know that we need to have a better computer-driven modelling for the entire valley, which is part of the IJC recommendation and certainly is recognized and recommended in this report as well. * (1 345) Premier's Comment s Apology Request Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Subsequent to my questions about the flooding in Grande Pointe, the Premier stated in this Chamber and then in the hallway and to all flood victims in Manitoba that people living on a flood plain must accept responsibility for where they have chosen to live.

In light of the fact that the government has not followed the protocol on the floodway and in light of the fact the minister has acknowledged deficiencies in forecasting in the direct Grande Pointe area, will the Premier today do what we asked him to do in November of 19 97 and apologize to those flood victims for his statements that showed a lack of heart, a lack of compassion and a lack of community in terms of the flood victims here in Manitoba? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I think it is unfortunate that the member opposite only sees a tragedy like the worst civil disaster ever experienced in the province's history as an opportunity to have some cheap political gain on his part. I think that he ought to be much more concerned about ensuring that there is accuracy in what he says.

In tenns of the protocol and the floodway, what has been well publicized and well reported is the fact that the protocol that had been in place for two decades was followed, and everybody, including the operators and the advisory committee to the operations of the flood way, assumed that that was the protocol. They did not realize that it had not been changed in writing back for three decades, even though they had been operating under that protocol for more than two decades. So it was not a change in protocol for this year.

It was a protocol change that had occurred more than two decades ago that had never been reduced to writing, so in fact they were following the protocol as it was understood by the operators and by the advisory committee. Number two, Madam Speaker, as the minister has indicated with respect to the Grande Pointe area, there is a limit, a limit to the ability to forecast things that are going to happen as a result of all sorts of man-made and other construction activities that have occurred with each successive flood that have changed the river hydrology to some degree.

The placement of, for instance, rail lines and the construction of new ma jor culvert systems, the placement of roadbeds and all sorts of things over the decades have made it impossible to -

April 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2101 predict what will happen at times of flows and circumstances that were unprecedented. So it is a matter of predicting the future, and just as the member opposite cannot tell us what might happen in the future, so too can engineers not predict what will happen when water levels reach levels that they have not in the history of this century.

So to try and suggest that the engineers were the cause of the problem because of their inability to predict is absolutely shameful on the part of the member for Concordia and his colleagues in their efforts, in their extreme efforts to try and create some cheap politics on their behalf.

Madam Speaker, I want to conclude by suggesting to the member opposite that at no time did I suggest that it was the fault of people who located where they did, but I said that all of us have to take responsibility for the decisions and judgments we make, including knowing the fact that we are locating in an area that does not allow us to get insurance coverage, and that has to be some indication of the fact that people have to know and understand what they are doing when they make those decisions. Flood Compensation Responsibility Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I think the cheapest shot we have ever heard in the public, that I have ever heard from any member of the Legislature from any party was the cheap shot this Premier took at the flood victims when he said, regrettably, you choose to live on a flood plain, you have to take responsibility. All I have asked the Premier to do, and we all made mistakes before-1 have made mistakes before; he has made mistakes before-i s act like a member of our community, take the leadership role and apologize for his statements. Take responsibility.

I give him another opportunity today. If he chooses not to take it, that is his decision. Madam Speaker, the International Joint Commission, the Ernst & Young report and now this report from the Water Commission have all stated that in dealing with compensation and allowing people to rebuild their lives, there has been despair and anger in the frustration of red tape and confusion between departments administered by this Premier and this government. Does the Premier take responsibility for three reports now that have identified the frustration, the anger, the confusion?

Does he take responsibility for the programs he put in place to deal with this flood in terms of our flood victims? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Absolutely. This is the administration that has commissioned each of those reports, because we believe that no government ever is perfect and cannot possibly be expected in unprecedented circumstances to do everything right. So we take the position that we want to learn from experience, not for the purposes of cheap politics but for the purposes of putting in place better systems so that we can have improved responses in the future.

We believe that it is important to learn from history, learn from experience and that is precisely what we are doing. * (135 0) Emer gency Measures Organization Amalgamat ion-Disaster Assistance Board Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, of course we discussed the issue of compensation last year when we proposed the cap be changed because of federal guidelines being changed in other provinces. We suggested a number of other positive changes.

But another matter that we had raised in the House is the whole issue of the Premier's decision to combine the Disaster Assistance Board with the Emergency Measures Organization. In the Ernst & Young report they raise the concern of the dual responsibilities during a disaster, and this interim rep01t also talks about the pressures that are placed on staff to deal with both preventing a disaster, which of course EMO is equipped to do, and dealing with the compensation issues and recovery issues that formerly were dealt with by the Disaster Assistance Board.

In light of the two reports the government has received, did the government make an error in combining the two branches, and will the government be reviewing the decision of the Premier and the head of Treasury Bo ard, Mr. Benson, to combine those two bodies? Does it look like it should be, Madam Speaker,

210 2 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 where we have the capacity to fight a disaster and we also have an office dealing with the compensation for victims? Should we go back to the former system? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): I think that the decision to amalgamate EMO and OF A was the right decision because we did have the ability to take some very quick changes, make rapid changes to the program to try and address the concerns that were out in the flood plain area.

As far as for the future, having this combined force together, the two organizations together are going to enable us to be able to put a disaster financial assistance program and an emergency preparedness program in place that will last and be sustainable for the long term in the future. Flooding Impact of Road Cuts Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would ask the government to read both the Ernst & Young report-and rapid response, in our view, is to put in writing the conditions that people are facing today in Ste. Agathe, as we have suggested all week.

I have raised questions about the concerns that the impact of the Brunkild dike, the cutting of the A von lea Road and Road 301 had on the flooding of Ste. Agathe and the flooding of Grande Pointe. Can the government today indicate: does it have an evaluation of the impact of those decisions that the government made-and I have always supported the government in building the Brunkild dike. We thought it was obviously the right move to make in terms of the overall victims. Has it evaluated the impact of that on flood victims in the Red River Valley? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Yes, one of the recommendations in the Water Commission report is that we work with the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation to put a precise number to the number of days where some delayed crop seeding o_ccurred. We know that most of that information is assembled. It is a matter of getting an independent body to give it some further consideration. We also are in the process today of making sure and installing, in fact, screw gates on the culverts that go through, the drains that go through the Z-dike.

More importantly, and something that was a very important issue during the post-flood examination was whether or not there were any impacts from road cuts and efforts that were made to deal with the flooding in order to protect, in this case, the infrastructure, being the Z-dike itself that was under some danger of crumbling if some roads had not been removed.

The modelling that is being done on behalf of the Water Commission is going to look at that and the operation of the gates and give us some precise modelling-what would have happened with and what would have happened without various pieces of infrastructure. That modelling that is being developed should give us some very precise information as to whether or not there were any known impacts. Mining Reserve Fund Withd rawal-General Revenue Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): Madam Speaker, Manitoba's mining sector is in a state of difficulty based in large part on the low metal prices, base metals and low gold prices. This has resulted, unfortunately, in the closure of the Bissett mine, a lifespan announcement of five years for Leaf Rapids, 14 for Flin Flon, hundreds of mining jobs being lost in the Thompson area because of difficulties at Inco. The Mining Reserve Fund was created for just these times, and I quote from the act.

The fund is to be used for the welfare and employment of persons residing in a mining community which may be adversely affected by the total or partial suspension, closing down of a mining operation, attributable to the depletion of ore deposits . My question to the Minister of Mines: will he confirm to this House, what he has said already in Estimates, that he and his government have withdrawn $6 million from the Mining Reserve Fund, from those mining communities, and withdrawn them for general revenues? Hon.

David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, the act in question provides for a minimum of $5 million to be kept in the fund. The fund had in excess of $15 million in it, approaching $20 million, and $6 million was moved through the bookkeeping process into general revenue -

April 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 210 3 for the purpose of investing in the Manitoba Mineral Exploration Assistance Program which has the effect of investing in exploration in areas which hopefully can result in the development of a new mine. What better solution to a community that has lost or has mining operations suspended. * (1 355) Ms.

Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, will the minister confirm that this is the first time ever in the history of this fund's creation that money has been withdrawn and moved into general revenue and that this is a betrayal of the miners, their families, and the families and the communities that have been affected by the closure or pending closure of mines? Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, less than $2 million of that $6 million has been spent up to this point, but that very worthwhile investment in the future of mining in the province for the benefit of those communities will continue.

There is also legislation before the House which has the result, when passed, of increasing the minimum amount of the reserve to $10 million. I have also indicated to the members of this House, including members of the official opposition and other opposition members, that the provision allowing encroachment on the fund for exploration purposes is something that I would take under advisement depending on the views of the community and the views of the opposition members. Ms.

Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Mines if he will make a commitment to the mining communities and those workers that are being faced with possible disasters and layoffs to appeal to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and his government and reinstate the money into the Mining Reserve Fund, where it belongs, for those workers and those families in the North. Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, I am confident that the people of the North very much appreciate the investment of these monies in mining exploration.

The best hope for mining and communities in the North is to find more mines and to have the activity generated by the exploration stimulated by the MEAP program. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Order, please. Prior to recognizing the honourable member for Flin Flo n, with the indulgence of the House, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have this afternoon members of a Russian delegation representing regional Legisla tures from the northwest region of Russia led by Mr. Vitaliy Klimov. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Manitoba Mineral Resources Assets-General Revenue Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My questions are also for the Minister of Energy and Mines. Would the minister confirm that over $30 million from the assets of Manitoba Mineral Resources was placed in general revenue by this administration, money that came from northern Manitoba. Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, the memory that we have on this side of the House of that particular corporation is not a positive one.

The fact is that we are investing in MEAP and trying to restore good will in doing business and investing in mining in this province because of the legacy left by the likes of that particular Crown corporation which did nothing but discourage investment in this province, caused mining companies and explorations to fear expropriation, to fear undue government interference in doing business in this province. We are still to this day trying to recover our reputation in the world community because of the NDP's very, very unfortunate approach to the mining industry in this province.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon, with a supplementary question. Mr. Jennissen: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Leaf Rapids would not exist if it were not for this side of the House. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

210 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Flin Flon, to pose his question, please. Mr. Jennissen: How does this minister justify taking more that $36 million from northern Manitoba mining communities when some of these same communities are at the very edge, fighting for survival, faced with declining ore stocks and mine closures over the next five years? Mr.

Newman: Madam Speaker, the future of the North and northern communities, as has been discussed in Estimates over the last few days, including with the honourable member for Flin Flon, rests in those communities themselves and having alternatives to mining and to have a vision for the future which can include mining but seeing mining as something that does not last forever in direct, approximate geographic location to any particular community. That is the message that should be sent out to those particular communities and, in fact, that is the message they are embracing.

Through the Mining Reserve Fund, we are investing in those kinds of economic development visioning processes, including most recently a major investment in an economic development officer in Lynn Lake which the honourable member knows about. * (1 400) Mineral Exploration Government In itiatives Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): What answer does this minister have for concerned families in Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids who are wondering why this government is quite willing to take huge amounts of money out of the North but quite unwilling to put significant amounts of money towards mineral exploration in the northwest region? Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, I always welcome the opportunity to remind all Manitobans of the enormous contribution and commitment this government has placed in the development of the North.

What greater commitment than the resolution of treaty land entitlement and the resolution of Northern Flood Agreement, something that the official opposition, through the Hydro developments of the '70s under Premier Schreyer, was responsible for causing the damage and responsible for those victims in the North, that we have now been investing over $2 15 million through a comprehensive settlement and the transfer of tens of thousands of acres of land through the Northern Flood Agreement.

We had on the table another $10 0 million available to the Cross Lake residents together with acreages of land to resolve that issue. Treaty land entitlement is involved in over a million acres of land being transferred to create healthy, sustainable communities in the North and over $76 million from the federal government towards that end. What better commitment to the North than to resolve those historic injustices. Youth Crime Repeat Offenders-Reduction Strategy Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

I was listening to some news, and I understand that in the government of Saskatchewan they actually have a fairly good idea in terms of what is happening with the youth, chronic youth problems, where youth keep on repeating criminal acts in which the government has now allocated out a special fund to do additional tracking of these problem youth. I am sure the government itself would acknowledge that you have repeat young offenders who cause a tremendous amount of problem in today's society.

My question to the Minister of Justice: is the minister prepared to look at an initiative that would in fact see the government of Manitoba have more attention drawn to repeat offenders? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question. I might indicate that the steps that the Saskatchewan government is now taking are steps that we have already implemented for some period of time. -

April2 3, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 21 05 For example, in the corrections area, the intensive support and supervision program has been in existence for some time. The program provides comprehensive management of high-risk young offenders in both pre and post-custody situations. This program, the ISSP program, in fact intervenes one step before the Saskatchewan program which appeared to deal with addressing the risk of offending youth,

whereas what we are trying to do is prevent them from offending. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Justice indicate that additional government resources are in fact in place so that we can give special attention to the repeat young offenders? Mr. Toews: Again I thank the member for the question. As he may know, Manitoba is in fact one of the most aggressive jurisdictions in the transfer of repeat violent off enders to adult court, and I think about 40 percent of all transfers in Canada are as a result of an aggressive policy by our Crown attorneys to address that problem.

Furthermore, my colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), in our recent budget-we will be announcing the intensive bail supervision program for young offenders, which will provide similar monitoring and intensive supervision of at- risk youth who are granted judicial release. We believe that we need to intensify those areas of when youth are released by our courts that there is more intensive monitoring of those youth. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, that is, in essence, what I am looking for.

Will the Minister of Justice then give the assurance that the additional resources will in fact be made available so the tracking of these problem youth is in fact happening? Mr. Toews: Well, again, I was fairly specific I thought in that respect. Not only is our intensive supervision in respect of releasing offenders one of the leading programs in Canada-and I want to compliment our staff over in the MYC who in fact are supervising that. I know the success of that program has been tremendous, and I have great faith in our correctional officers to deal with the issue of the bail as well.

I think that our jurisdiction, especially in respect of these issues, has been proactive, and we will continue to see more programs that address specific needs as they arise. So I thank my honourable friend for that question. Household Hazardous Waste Program Status Report Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Environment. Last summer, without any consultation, without any public notice, the government eliminated the Household Hazardous Waste Program, but under pressure, during the Portage by-election, agreed to restore it for one pickup in the fall.

My question is to the minister: what happened to that commitment he made last fall for this year? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): It is interesting how honourable members opposite seem to be able to link everything up so conveniently to events of the day. When the budget for the last fiscal year had been set, it had been the expectation that consultations regarding oil, used oil and containers and filters would have moved the process along further than it had by the fall of last year.

So therefore we budgeted accordingly, and as it turned out, the oil regulation had not come forward and so the funding had to be restored, which it was. [interjection] I am trying to figure out, Madam Speaker, what it is that is wrong with the Leader of the Opposition here today. [interjection] But all is well that ends well. The other thing about it is that we are recovering so much more household hazardous waste with the program that we have been running- well, Miller Environmental has been running, with assistance from the government.

It is really tremendous to review the amount of household hazardous waste that is no longer finding its way to the wrong places. * (1410 ) Mr. Dewar: Madam Speaker, I do not think he answered the question. I am not entirely sure what he answered. The question is: is there a program this year? The program last year collected over 200,000

210 6 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 kilograms from over 30 communities in this province. Is there a program this year? Mr. McCrae: Well, so pleased we are with the outcome ofthis type of programming in Manitoba, all of which has been brought in in the past I 0 years with the present administration. Previous to that, virtually nothing had been put in place to look after our environment and set the path for a sustainable future for our children and grandchildren.

I am very proud to be part of that record and proud to be a part of the continuation of the program that will take proper care of household hazardous waste materials. I look forward, with great anticipation, to getting the Estimates of the Department of Environment before the committee so that the honourable member and I can swap statistics and enjoy, revel in the glory of the improvements that have been seen in the last I 0 years under this administration, unfortunately improvements in environmental stewardship that we never saw before that. Mr.

Dewar: It appeared that the program is not on, Madam Speaker, and that is regrettable. Madam Speaker, my last question to the Minister of Env ironment is: how much household hazardous waste, paints, oils, solvents, antif reeze and so on, ended up or will end up in landfills by a bad decision from this minister? Mr. McCrae: None, Madam Speaker, because those depoted days were indeed scheduled and it all happened. An Honourable Member: Cancelled. Mr. McCrae: No, they were not cancelled. They happened.

The important thing is that waste stream articles like oil, containers, filters, tires and all of those things covered by the Manitoba Product Stewardship program, Madam Speaker, all of those things are taking huge chunks of garbage out of the waste stream and they are now being recycled, which in the past were leaving the wrong kind of message not only for ourselves but for future generations. When we talk about sustainable development in our economy, we mean business.

Unf ortunately the previous government in this province never displayed any inclination towards that but somebody had to make that happen, and we did, Madam Speaker. Carberry Health Action Commi ttee Project Proposal Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister of Health. The Carberry North Cypress Health Action Committee and many good people in the community of Carberry recognize that the current hospital is totally inadequate. It is over 50 years old, the roof is leaking, the plumbing is inadequate.

The local health action committee recognizes that not only do they need a new facility but a new approach where they are going to emphasize wellness instead of illness, and they are proposing a new integrated health care facility. My question to the minister: can he indicate today whether the government is prepared to respond favourably to this proposal from the good people of Carberry? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for that question. The member for Gladstone (Mr.

Rocan), who represents Carberry in this Legislature, has been working with me very closely over the last while on this particular project. The community of Carberry I think has come to appreciate, as the member has indicated, that integrating their acute care services with their personal care home allows for delivering those services and continuing services in the community, where if one just had to replace the hospital it really would not be feasible. That is the Shoal Lake integrated facility that we have talked about and we have approved for Shoal Lake.

I will be attending a meeting in Carberry within the next couple of weeks. I know it is on my schedule, and I am looking forward to meeting with the community. I can tell the member, like in all of these projects, there is a lot of work that has to be done between the community, the regional health authority and the ministry in getting down to exactly what that community needs in its services as opposed to what it -

April 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 210 7 may want or desire. But those are exactly the types of projects that we are entertaining and approving, and I would expect when the project has worked through the detail it will receive approval, Madam Speaker. Mr. Leonard Evans: I thank the minister for his answer, and indeed I was going to ask him if he would meet with the delegation from the community, and this is very good.

I wonder if the minister is knowledgeable and aware that the Marquette Regional Health Authority fully supports this proposal, recognizing that it is a growing community and does have legitimate needs. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I have attended many meetings with the Marquette Regional Health Authority as they work at reorganizing health care in that particular area on a regional basis. They were there when we developed with them the principle of the integrated facility in Shoal Lake. We will be working with them.

I can tell the member that the real issue around Carberry now is being able to work through exactly what kind of services work and can be supported in a community like Carberry. That is going to take a fair bit of detailed work by the RHA, by the Ministry of Health with that community. So that is really the issue; we want to get down to it. I will be in Carberry with the member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan) at a public meeting to discuss these issues. There is a lot of detailed work to do, but the principle is certainly supported.

In fact, it is exactly the kind of thing that regional health authorities and we are encouraging in the redesign of rural health delivery. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. * (14 20) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Health Anxiliaries Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, throughout history, Manitoba's health auxiliaries have played an important role in our communities. They raise funds to help purchase valuable medical supplies such as stretchers and oxygen equipment and to support handivan services. They visit with patients in hospitals and nursing homes, offer their support and brighten their days.

Health auxiliaries also raise funds to provide bursaries and scholarships for students studying in the medical field. I want to congratulate today Marge Friesen of Altona and the countless other volunteers responsible for writing a history of the Manitoba Health Auxiliaries Association 19 46- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am experiencing great difficulty hearing the honourable member for Emerson, and members' statements are a very important part of routine proceedings. Could I please ask those members having meetings to do so quietly in the loge or outside the Chamber. Mr.

Penner: -to 19 96, which recently rolled off the presses at Friesens Yearbook Division in Altona. The provincial health auxiliary association was first organized in 19 46 as the Manitoba Association of Women's Hospital Aides. With the group's 50th anniversary approaching in 19 96, it was decided a history book would be a fitting tribute to the organization's years of community service. The organization's history was compiled under the direction of Marge Friesen, herself an auxiliary volunteer and past president of the provincial hospitals auxiliary executive. Marj Heinrichs of Rosenort wrote the history.

It was typeset by Ruth Kroeker of Altona and edited by Anne Kroeker of Altona. Currently, Manitoba has 64 health auxiliaries, made up of some 5,000 volunteers who donate thousands of hours of their time annually to this valuable organization. Volunteers are an integral part of Manitoba society. These people undertake the projects, large and small, that make an important difference in people's lives. I commend all those who have worked tirelessly for Manitoba's hospital auxiliaries and those dedicated to the efforts to promote health and well ness within our communities.

2I0 8 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, I9 98 Health Care System-Northern Manitoba Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): The shortsighted cuts to health care by this provincial government have been documented in a recent report released by Manitoba nurses. In every category except one the worst problems existed in northern Manitoba. Eighty five percent of northern nurses reported that their time on patient care had decreased while their time on paperwork had increased.

Ninety percent of northern nurses reported that their workload had increased since I9 95, while continuity of care had decreased as had the number of nurses providing direct patient care. The shortages of nurses, doctors and other medical staff in northern Manitoba are well documented. I am pleased that we were able to work out a solution to the doctor situation at Snow Lake, but for many other communities, such as Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake, Flin Flon and Pukatawagan, the situation remains serious. It is not surprising, therefore, that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) chose to duck two recent public forums.

The constant attempts by the Filmon government to pretend that their cuts and their broken promises have nothing to do with problems in health care fool no one, certainly no one in northern Manitoba. The cuts to northern health care have ignored the greater acuity of cases in the North. Serious diseases such as diabetes are at epidemic levels in many communities. It is deeply disturbing that diseases that Canadians thought they had eradicated decades ago, such as tuberculosis, are making a big comeback at the Black Sturgeon and Pukatawagan Bands. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

I am experiencing difficulty hearing the honourable member for Flin Flon. Mr. Jennissen: Urgent action is required to deal with this situation. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Organ Tissue Donations Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): I rise today to make note to all members of this Assembly, as well as to all Manitobans, of an important issue, that being organ donation. Organ tissue donation is a very important issue, not only to myself but all those Canadians in Canada who are awaiting organ transplant.

Currently, more than 2,800 Canadians are in a life-threa tening position and may indeed not survive to the time that they have for receipt of their organ transplant. Yesterday many members of this Assembly wore green ribbons in recognition of National Organ Donation Discussion Day. The meaning behind discussion day is one that is very simple, that being to encourage all Manitobans, indeed all Canadians, to take a moment to discuss with their family members the important issue of organ and tissue donation. Farnily members need to talk about what they would like in their passing.

It is important that their death may be the life for others. Having this brief discussion could save families the anxiety of making an on-the-spot decision. Furthermore, comfort comes from the knowledge that something positive may come of their death, and through their family's wishes this could take place. While many of us have taken the time to sign the backs of our drivers' licences, many more opportunities must take place for those who do not have a driver's licence to discuss this most important issue. Time is critically important to those on the waiting list for these surgical procedures.

I encourage all Manitobans to take that time to discuss the issue of organ and tissue donation. Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity. Holocaust Awareness Week Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, this is Holocaust Awareness Week around the world. The holocaust was the planned destruction of an entire people, and for this reason it is important to remember and mourn the six million Jews who were killed as a result of this.

In common with Jews and all people around the world, our Jewish community will be mourning and honouring the memory of these more than six million Jewish men, women and children who perished in ghettos, concentration camps, and gas chambers in those days of the Nazi nightmare. A total of II million innocent noncombatant civilians were killed by the Nazis, but the largest group by far was comprised of the six million Jewish victims who were directly targeted because they were Jewish and -

April 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 210 9 represented fully a third of the Jewish population ofthe world. Madam Speaker, as has been quoted before in this House by many members, including the Premier (Mr. Filmon), the renowned author and Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel points out not all victims of the holocaust were Jews but all Jews were victims. Many of us will attend the ceremonies tomorrow at the holocaust memorial at the Legislature and many of us participate in the activities.

Some of us had the opportunity to participate in the ceremony last week with the renaming of the street, which is an annual event, and we had the opportunity to again hear of another terrible facet of the holocaust which was the kinder transports that took place. We had the opportunity this week to view a film and to hear a speaker talk about that previously unrecognized

chapter of the holocaust history. We need never forget; we should remember every day, particularly this year, the 50th anniversary of the founding of the State of lsrael, and I urge all members who, I am sure, do acknowledge and recognize and never forget that it is fitting that we all recognize the history of the holocaust and never forget. Thank you, Madam Speaker. *

(1430) Water Commission -Interim Report Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I just wanted to take this opportunity to comment very briefly on the interim report that was released today from the Manitoba Water Commission. It is almost a year ago today where the flood-and I am quoting right from the commission's report-w here it in essence turned the Red River Valley into a lake covering 1 ,000 square miles of water or 640,000 square acres. Winnipeg was indeed somewhat fortunate.

It is estimated that the floodway saved the city residents and taxpayers and so forth somewhere between $3.5 billion to $4 billion. But there were a couple of points which I just very briefly wished to make comment on. One of them is the recommendation in terms of this report where it talks about the need to have a dedicated or additional dedicated staff for the forecasting, should we be put into a situation of a similar nature. It also makes the recommendation that we should work more co operatively and consider even having a staffperson.

Again, given a particular situation, a staffperson would then go down stateside to participate in their forecasting in hopes that we would then be better prepared. I make reference to the monies that were saved as a result of the flood way. One of the things that I would like to see, and the report makes reference to it, is that there needs to be more of a sense of fairness in the sense of other municipalities, individuals that live just down river to the flood way in having some sort of input as to when the gates should be raised, the levels and so forth.

With those few words, I appreciate the opportunity, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Madam Speaker: As previously agreed, the House will resume in Committee of Supply. * (14 40) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ENERGY AND MINES The Acting Chairperson (Peter Dyck): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section ofthe Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. When the committee last, it had been considering item 23.2 Energy and Mineral Resources (

b) Petroleum and Energy

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 47 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): I asked the indulgence of the committee as I indicated when I had to leave, and I thank the patience and the good will of the committee that we, in fact, return back to our order

21 10 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 and that would be under 23.2.(

a) Marketing. We had not completed that section, and I had to leave. Mr . Gerry McAlpine, Chair pers on. in the Chair Mr. Chairperson: What is the will of the committee? Is there unanimous consent to revert to

Section 23.2.(a)( l) ? Okay. Agreed? Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): There was one question left hanging, and if you want to have sort of a continuous record of the MLA for Dauphin's (Mr. Struthers) question in the previous section, I could answer that and maybe that will complete his segment. But there was a question he posed and then time was up. So I am prepared to answer that question if you want. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister. to proceed. Mr. Newman: The answer to the question about energy efficiency and alternate energy indicators is as follows.

We have a number of indicators that we use to gauge the state of energy efficiency and use of alternative energy. These are contained in ··Energy in Manitoba," and are based on information obtained from Stats Canada. The first is energy intensity which is measured in terms of energy use per unit of gross domestic product. This indicator has declined from approximately 15 megajo ules/real dollars of GOP in 19 80, to 11. 27 mj/GDP dollars in 19 96. That is the latest year for which we have statistics.

It is anticipated this indicator will continue to decline to a forecast level of I 0.29 megajo ules/dollars GOP by 200 I. This indicator reflects the overall energy efficiency of our economy. The second indicator is the percentage of energy used in Manitoba that consists of imported refined petroleum products or RPPs. This is a measure of our dependence on fossil fuel production from our western neighbours. This indicator has declined from approximately 48.5 percent in 19 80 and is stabilized at about 41. 3 percent since 19 91.

It is estimated that the indicator will continue to decline slowly to about 70.7 percent by 200 I. This indicator is adversely affected by the buoyant economy, primarily additional use of diesel for the trucking industry and the popularity of less efficient sport utility vehicles. A third indicator is the percentage of energy used in Manitoba that is renewable, predominantly hydro. This indicator has increased from approximately 17 percent in 19 79 to approximately 22.5 percent in 19 96.

It is forecast that this indicator will further increase to about 24. 1 percent, largely due to the conversion of the TransCanada PipeLines compressor station at lies des Chenes from a gas turbine driver to an electric motor driver. A fourth indicator is the residential energy use per househo ld. This is a measure of energy efficiency in the residential sector. The indicator has declined from approximately .133 terajoules per household in 19 78 to approximately .I II in 19 96. This factor is expected to be stable over the next few years.

With respect to alternate energy use, Statistics Canada does not report a nonhydro renewable energy use. This is primarily because the original capital cost to the facility, the energy costs of wind, solar energy, et cetera. are generally free, making monitoring of its use difficult or impossible. Examples of alternative energy installation in the province is a demonstration ground source heat pump at Fort Whyte Centre and installations in a number of rural residences and a couple of arenas. In general. ground source heat pumps are expensive to install and difficult to maintain.

A number of small horizontal wind turbines used by individual households to supplement electric energy consumption are in operation. There are two vertical wind turbines we are aware of in Churchill and Birds Hill, but we believe neither one is operational. There are a large number of small photo voltaic systems, that is solar energy, throughout the province that provide heat in of f-grid situations, example, remote cottages, lodges, et cetera, and provide water heating for swimming pool operations. Li psett Hall on Kenaston Boulevard has a solar system. However, we do not know how much it is used.

Ford New Holland and Canadian Bronze have solar walls used to heat make-up air for their facilities. -

April 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 21 11 Ms. Mihychuk: Since I missed the whole

preamble to all of that, I am sure it was very informative, but I do want to thank my colleague from Dauphin for asking those questions, and I would now like to suggest that we move back to the Marketing section, please. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for St. James, to proceed. Ms. Mihychuk: It seems to me where we had left off I had indicated to the minister that there were indeed two exploration companies exploring in resource management areas and that this was causing a certain amount of hard feeling by the local First Nations community.

Perhaps the minister could indicate whether either one of those two companies has received provincial monies in terms of an exploration grant, a MEAP grant. Mr. Newman: We do not want to be guessing as to who these companies might be. We have identified that there is one possible company that might be in the area, but we are not sure, so I cannot answer the question. Ms. Mihychuk: It is my understanding that one of these companies is indeed receiving a MEAP, received a MEAP last year, and its receiving has been approved for a MEAP for this year.

Without giving the name, I guess as a policy question, given that we are providing provincial money for this exploration program and given the minister's stated objectives of working co operatively with First Nations, does he feel that it is appropriate to give out a MEAP to a company which has not apparently or, let us say, theoretically, would it be within what he would perceive as a policy to give out an exploration grant to a company that would be exploring in a mineral resource area? *

(1450) Mr. Newman: I am inclined to ask, Mr. Chair, what is your point of view on this issue, but at the moment there is no policy that makes MEAP grants conditional on whether or not they are within or near or of any particular relationship to a resource area. Ms. Mihychuk: In fact, it is true, is it not, that the resource management area has no jurisdiction in terms of limiting prospecting or the issuance of a disposition of any kind. Mr. Newman: This, I guess, may illustrate a difference in philosophy between the party you represent and the government that I am part of.

We do not interfere in the judgments that are made freely by these companies in terms of where their invested dollars, with a proportion of taxpayers' dollars attached to them, are going to result in exploration being done. The rules of the game, in terms of locations where they are prohibited, where investing puts at some risk the certainty of a positive relationship, is in the hands of the company to pursue in mutual self-i nterest kinds of ways.

I have every confidence that that kind of approach will be more constructive and will be more respectful of aboriginal people and of the companies' best efforts to make the best business judgments and the best socially responsible judgments in the interests of mining exploration and development in the province of Manitoba. Ms. Mihychuk: What measures did the department take to instruct these companies that there was, in fact, a resource management area identified and that their activities may infringe on that area? What actions were taken?

What recommendations did the department give those mining exploration companies? Mr. Newman: First of all, I do not know again of what company you are speaking, but in terms of general policy it is up to the companies to ask the questions and get the answers and to determine those sorts of issues themselves. If they do not have the capacity to do that better than us feeding them something that may not be responsive to their needs and may not even be reliable -we might be going beyond our mandate.

We leave that up to the companies to determine, but they know by virtue of the kind of speech I gave in Toronto, if they heard it, and through other communications, what sort of culture I believe is present in the North, which they are either going to respect and embrace or take the risk of not being as welcome as they would be with knowledge and sensitivity and understanding of the particular environment, culture and local economies.

2112 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 Ms. Mihychuk: It seems truly incredible that this is the same minister who talks about respecting First Nations and aboriginal people and is talking about the need to do jo int ventures and an aboriginal mining initiative, yet it is his own department, from what I understand, which has not sat on the committee for two years. It is his own department which his government has expanded to encourage, promote, lure, give out exploration grants to bring in more mining companies and actively pursue their interests in terms of bringing in exploration.

It seems to me that given his philosophical position when we first started Estimates, that there was a relationship between Northern Affairs and mining, and we had to work in harmony and that this was an advantage, that the minister would clearly see how the department appears to have provided the information, perhaps lured these companies here, attracted them, and has actually facilitated their ability to do exploration in an area that is sensitive to a First Nations community.

Now, is the minister suggesting that the department has a role by providing civil servants and the funding to go out there and market but does not also have a responsibility in terms of respecting First Nations, ensuring that there are joint partnership meetings and ensuring that there is respect for those First Nations? Mr. Newman: It might help if we made sure what kinds of areas we are talking about. I am operating under the assumption that we are not talking about what are called community interest zones under the Northern Flood Agreement.

I am operating under the assumption that we are not talking about hold areas under the Northern Flood Agreement.

To the extent we are talking about those, and I thought we went through the exercise this morning so that we are not talking about those, that with respect to those particular defined areas, the first being in relation to the treaty land entitlement, the second, the hold areas, being in relation to the Northern Flood Agreement, an information sheet was sent out to all mining companies in the province and exploration companies, and it was generally made available December 5, 19 97, an information sheet explaining what the expectations were of the department in relation to those particular areas.

If you are simply talking, as I have assumed you were, about what the aboriginal people would call traditional lands but are not within those kinds of areas, then there is not either a co-ma nagement agreement in existence, nor is there a protocol pursuant to the treaty land entitlement agreement in relation to community interest zones. *

(1500) Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Chairman, I am speaking about resource management areas. When the discussion came up, we, I thought, had established that this is a land use zone established by the community and the resource sectors and a great deal of time is spent on forestry management, but presumably it also includes the mineral sector in a resource management area. This is something different than community interest zones, Northern Flood and treaty land entitlement. It is specifically called resource management areas, and that is the particular land designation or zone that I am speaking about.

Is the minister familiar with this land designation? Mr. Newman: There is, for example, a board called the Nelson House resource management board, but that is pursuant to the Northern Flood Agreement. I think the only way I can address this is to determine what specific resource area you are talking about, and then we can maybe address her intelligence to it in ways that ensure that vve are both focusing on the same geographic area. Ms.

Mihychuk: I will provide the information to the minister because it is in a very sensitive area and is causing, I know, the government, in general, difficulties because of the relationships that have occurred in that area, so I do not want to go into specifics but, in generaL I will continue my line of questioning. Would the Marketing branch identify all of the various land management areas in legal or, I guess, in good will to exploration companies in terms of their buddying? It is my understanding that the Marketing branch does a one-to-one with exploration companies.

They sort of help them through the process of getting permits and encouraging them to go ahead and do business here in Manitoba. Is it the policy of the

April 23, 19 98 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 21 13 government to also make them aware of the sensitivities of the areas in question, including land tenure issues and the need to consult with the people, the First Nations communities in those areas? Mr. Newman: With respect to the fact sheet I referred to in advising about Northern Flood Agreement areas where there is a co-ma nagement area and agreement, the statement is made in response to the question as follows: what steps must be taken to acquire a mineral disposition in a co-management area?

The acquisition of mineral dispositions is not affected by the co management areas. However, we again encourage active dialogue with First Nation communities to inform them of explor ation activities in the area and especially those activities that may affect hunting and trapping.

With respect to treaty land entitlement implications to land tenure, there is an admonition to mining and exploration companies as follows: mining and exploration companies should be aware that land selections must be consis tent with the land selection criteria as outlined in the framework agreement and will be, for the most part, in the vicinity of existing reserves. All land selection must be approved by the federal and the provincial governments to be made within three to five years of the ratification of the agreement.

It is expected that much of the lands selection will consist of unencumbered Crown land within community interest zones. A CIZ consists of an area of 30 kilometres from the exterior boundary of the main reserve of each entitlement First Nation. Notification of any changes to land disposition, excluding mineral claims and leases within the CIZs, must be made to the appropriate entitlement First Nation. CIZs are not hold areas and do not limit any rights of a mining or exploration company to stake or develop mineral claims or obtain mineral leases. That is what was agreed to. It is in the agreement.

However exploration permits must be reviewed by the affected EFN. The purpose of this overview is to preclude large amounts of land within the CIZs from becoming encumbered and not available for land selection. It should be noted that any land purchases made by an EFN under the TLE process must be made on a willing-buyer and willing-seller basis. Ms. Mihychuk: I take that as, basically the answer is no.

Besides providing the information in writing, the department is aware of the situation and does have inspectors that are quite aware of activities that are going on in the province, both that are with dispositions and not. It is my understanding that, in fact, the minister has granted MEAPs to companies who have not registered any type of mineral disposition. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: The simple answer is yes. Ms. Mihychuk: How does the minister justify giving out money to exploration companies who do not register any type of land tenure in terms of exploration permits or anything else to the department? Mr.

Newman: I am not aware of any constructive persuasive reason why it should not be done the way it is done to maximize the value that their investment brings to the province. When they make their application, they give an indication of a budget as to how they are going to invest the money. It is scrutinized and, to the extent it has geological and other merits that make sense to the best intelligence that we have within our department on the review committee, it is approved or not approved in whole or in part. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain why companies need to withdraw to get exploration permits?

Then if we wish to encourage exploration, and some companies need it, and some companies do not, what is the difference? Mr. Newman: The business practice is for exploration companies to take out an exploration permit where they are seeking a larger area within which to do exploration work. When they determine that a certain area is worthy of taking out this position to protect their interests, they would do that and then pay the necessary fees to allow that to happen. It just makes sound business sense.

The treatment of exploration permits and special exploration permits, in accordance with the notice we give to the explorationist community, is that they can be issued in the community interest zone area with the consent of the entitlement First Nation. The entitlement

21 14 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 First Nation can object to the issuance of exploration pennits or special exploration penn its only if the land applied for, or part of it, is made as a land selection within the specified time lines in the agreement. Those time lines are 60 days to respond to notice of disposition and 18 0 days from date of notification to fonnally select the land.

The reason these two kinds of pennits are dealt with differently is for the simple reason that these penn its would encumber large tracts of land in the area, wherein we are encouraging the time lease selection of the treaty land entitlement of the entitlement First Nation. * (1510 ) Ms. Mihychuk: Does this policy about requiring exploration dispositions of some type actually allow companies to explore in areas that are within lands that may be considered by First Nations in coming up to certain decisions without that First Nation knowing about it?

Does the minister not feel that those First Nation communities have the right to know that there are mineral interests in those lands and that, in fact, companies are exploring and doing work in those areas? Mr. Newman: As I have said on several occasions, this you leave up to the good sense and good will, the individual and corporate ethics, the self-in terested motivation of the peoples involved, and that is also why we have the ninth point in our strategy which we are going to be workshopping so that we do not come in and impose paternalistically in interfering ways what we think is the best way of doing this.

We are going to the people themselves to tell us in a workshopping process which is imminent. This has been in the planning process for some months. We are in the final process of selecting a facilitator, and we are inviting a variety of organizations to nominate two members to send to a workshop to begin the process of learning each other's aspirations, cultures, communication needs and to begin to work on the initial draft of an accord.

The initial workshop is planned for the end of May of this year, and invitations will be sent to the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs with the recent, reported in the aboriginal media, severance of the MKO, the MKO as well, the Manitoba Metis Federation, the Northern Assoc iation of Community Councils, the Mining Associa tion of Manitoba, Manitoba Prospectors and Developers Association and the Manitoba Saskatchewan Prospectors and Developers Association. That is the process to have the representatives of the communities come up with what they believe is the answer you are apparently searching for. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate how many companies have received MEAPs but have not registered exploration pennits? Mr. Newman: We do not have that infonnation at hand but, if you wish, we can undertake to provide you with that infonnation. Ms. Mihychuk: How does the department know where these companies are working in tenns of accountability, inspection, and ensuring the work is being done when exploration pennits or some sort of tenure is not registered? Mr.

Newman: The process for inspections is a spot checking process and, when there is a decision to go and do a spot-check of a particular explorationist, it is ascertained at that point in time where they are and then the inspection is done in that fashion. They have some indication nonnal ly in the broad area where they are, which is identified in the initial application, but the specifics are ascertained at the time of the spot audit. Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, surely these spot audits sound like the department sends out an inspector to go onsite to see that the activities are actually going on as presumably are being expressed in their application or their plan. Now, if an inspector is planning to do a random check on the company, surely that sort of surprise visit would be pre-empted by a phone call to the company saying, hey, we are coming up, where are you guys? We are putting millions of dollars into exploration companies, and I believe that in the most part we have seen positive steps. I believe it should come from Consolidated Revenue.

That is another argument, but there needs to be strong accountability. Putting $4 million into exploration, there have to be clear guidelines. The government must know where the companies are and be able to access that whenever they want to, not at the convenience of the company, it

April 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2115 seems to me. What is the minister's view and how does he have his inspectors go and check on these companies if there is no mineral disposition of any kind? *

(1520) Mr. Newman: I do not get the impression that we have got unwelcome investors in Manitoba skulking around in a darkness and trying to hide from the scrutiny of the local populations and the world. What we are talking about here is companies that have seen fit to invest significant amounts of dollars, a fraction of which is supported by a provincial tax dollars contribution. They have 18 months within which to complete the work for which they have received support from the province.

The creative tension for those who are not absolutely honourable is to have the potential for a random inspection, audit, of their expenditures. The practice is, without giving away the total picture which would then be a disservice to the integrity of the process that you are talking about, to go in after they have done enough work to be able to make them accountable and then measure whether the money has been spent, as they had indicated in the application form, in the way it was intended to be spent.

So that is the way it has been done, and I welcome comments from you and continued questioning from you that may reveal to us some ways that we can practice our policy of continuous improvement. That is the answer to your last question. Ms. Mihychuk: So it is my understanding that exploration companies are able to apply to the province, to the department, and receive provincial grants and do work without field observations or checks in areas without registering mineral dispositions. Clearly, this has to raise questions of accountability for the department.

It very much concerns me that the minister was not aware that these companies were out there and actually in an area that may impact on other negotiations that are going on. So I think that there needs to be better communication, but I think that there is a public accountability question here that the minister must address. The minister must be aware that there are exploration companies in Manitoba's environment that are doing work and do not wish to be recognized or have their work spotted by other companies. I mean, this is part of the exploration business.

You go out and you do your business, and you do not lea ve tracks. I mean, it is not the type of thing that you want to advertise. But if you are going to do that, it would seem to me that you take your chances. You go without a provincial grant. You are out there to make a deal or find a find and that goes on all the time. So am I implying that there are companies out there in Manitoba that are lurking around and people do not know? Well, those are the minister's words. I would say, yes, absolutely. There is exploration going on in Manitoba. We want to encourage it.

It is the way business is done, but the government has decided to give public money to companies. When they have decided to do that, then there is an onus on those companies, a responsibility for them to own up, indicate what areas that they are going to be doin g business in because it is a matter of accountability. Inspe ctors must be able to come and check the field site. Can I ask: have there been inspectors who have done random checks on the field programs of these companies that receive MEAPs?

That may be a very broad question because I know that there are numerous companies out there, but in particular, those companies that have not registered mineral dispositions. Mr. Newman: What specifically did you want to know about the audits? I missed the question. Ms. Mihychuk: How many inspections have there been in lands identified, presumably to the Marketing branch or whoever runs the MEAP program, on those companies that have received MEAPs but have not registered mineral dispositions? Mr.

Newman: As I indicated, I cannot delineate between those that have registered with the branch, but I can talk about the gross number of audits. In October of '95, there were 14 active MEAP projects. Nine inspections were scheduled and two were completed. In January '96, there were 34 active projects. The number of inspections scheduled is nine, and three were completed. In May of '96, there were

21 16 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 seven projects active. One inspection was scheduled and it was not completed. In November of '96, there were 43 projects active; five inspections scheduled and four completed. In May of '97, there were 22 projects active, and seven projects were scheduled and two were completed. The last inspections, then, were in May of '97. Ms. Mihychuk: For clarification, is the minister saying that these inspections were in the field, or are these financial inspections? Mr. Newman: All of those that I have referred to are site inspections.

In addition to that, there were office audits selected. In January of '96, there were two selected for office audits. One was carried out and there was an internal review of project receipts and invoices in 10 cases. In May of '96, there was one office audit selected. One was carried out and in one there was an internal review of project receipts and invoices to the date. There were internal reviews in November of '96 and May of'97 in the amount of 19 in the former and six in the latter. Ms. Mihychuk: Are the site inspections conducted by a claims inspector? Mr.

Newman: The audits are conducted in the offices by the MEAP co-ordina tor and a staff auditor with the Department of Finance. The field audits or site inspections are done by departmental geologists. *

(1530) Ms. Mihychuk: How much experience and training do the geologists have in terms of inspecting claims and other types of exploration work? Mr. Newman: The way you phrased your question causes some difficulty. My advice is that the people who conduct the inspection are people who are professional geologists who are doing inspections of the geology. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate what expertise is required to be a claims inspector? Mr. Newman: The claims inspector has no relation to the function that we have been describing in doing site audits with respect to MEAP expenditures.

The claims inspector is someone who determines whether or not the staking of claims has been done in accordance with regulations. Ms. Mihychuk: Are the geologists that do these inspections familiar with the criteria required in the MEAP plan and the mineral disposition regulations? Mr. Newman: The guide for the geologist doing the site inspections is developed by the MEAP co-ordina tor and is given to the geologist doing the inspection to ascertain whether the geological work being done is in accordance with the criteria which were the basis for the advance of MEAP support. Ms.

Mihychuk: It seems to me that last year we talked a little bit about accountability and the inspection methods for MEAP projects by departmental geologists and others, and we talked about-I think this was also raised by the Auditor-that the department included visits by field geologists into areas where a company was exploring and had a MEAP. It seemed, at that time, fairly casual and not particularly planned out as necessarily an inspection of that program, although they went for a site visit, and they may see what was going on.

Are there specific geologists assigned by the department now to inspect and ensure that these MEAP projects are complying to their plans and ensuring the financial accountability of our grants to these companies? Who is doing it, and whose branch or department are they assigned to? Mr. Newman: To geologists. Ms. Mihychuk: And those two geologists are associated with the MEAP program specifically, Mr. Minister? Mr. Newman: I meant t-o, not t-w-o geologists. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister clarify that, please, in greater detail? -

April 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2117 Mr. Newman: I was not responding in terms of the numbers of geologists. I was responding to the profession, the types of staff that were engaged in the process of site inspections, and they are geologists. Ms. Mihychuk: Okay . I understand that the inspectors are geologists. My question is are they specifically identified to do this work on the MEAP companies and those projects? Mr. Newman: Those considered to have the relevant background and experience are the ones who are designated to perfonn the particular inspections at a particular time. Ms.

Mihych uk: Can the minister identify how many geologists go out and do these inspections? Who are they? How often do they go? Are they identifiable people who go and say I am going to do the following 45 inspections, or are they at random? It just seems I am not getting clear answers as to who is the inspection team for MEAP. Mr. Newman: We try to be as helpful as we can. If we understand what your earnest desire is, that is to get the names of the people who have done inspections, we are prepared to give you a list of the names of all people who have done site inspections.

We just cannot do it right now, but we can undertake to provide that to you, and I so undertake, if that is what you want. Ms. Mihychuk: I appreciate that. I would also like to understand the process. Is there a planning process identified early on in the year that says that you will be expected to visit the following five companies, or how is it assessed as to who is going to go out and at what time, and how is the link between the Marketing department and the person who handles MEAP and the geologists that go out? Mr. Newman: The written policy dealing with inspections and audits is as follows.

Inspection and audit criteria have been established with advice from an internal auditor with the Department of Finance. An inspection checklist was developed along with guidelines. All inspections will be co-ordi nated through the director of Geological Services, Energy and Mines. Site inspections will be based on 30 percent of approved assistance dollars under the November 19 96, May 19 97, and future offerings. Company office audits will be conducted on 30 percent of paid assistance dollars paid to the November 19 96 offering.

Company of fice audits will be conducted on 20 percent of the paid assistance dollars under the November 19 96 and November 19 97 offerings. Companies approved prior to the November 19 96 offering were not required to submit receipts or invoices for their exploration activities. Site inspections and company office audits are selected randomly unless there is cause for concern, therefore selection of a project or company may be made by the MEAP co-ordina tor. * (1 540) Ms.

Mihychuk: My understanding, and if the minister can correct me, is that it is the geologists in the Geolo gical branch that go out and do whatever inspections that the co-ordinator for MEAP assigns. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: The staff advised that the definition of random means sort of just pick any one of them, and it may very well be that to demonstrate absolute integrity in the system every project should be given a number and thrown into a hat and then you pick one, but if that is the concern of the honourable member for St. James, then maybe you can share that.

If you think that is a more objective way of doing it, I am inclined to think it is too, if that is of any concern. Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I think we have ended up coming into an area where perhaps I am going to request the minister take some time to investigate and ensure that we have steps of clearly defined inspection and accountability established for the people of Manitoba in terms of handing out these grants. It concerns me when I heard numbers like, there were 34 projects; we are going to do nine audits; only three got completed. That is a very small number, and I know that that was in the past.

Now I think there are 45 projects, five were identified, and five completed. Well, we are talking about a very significant amount of money, and we do take considerable effort to promote Manitoba and the program, and so there must be also an onus on the department to do the inspections, do them at random, have somebody identified who is

211 8 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 not the same person that also gives out the money. It needs to be somebody different, in my opinion. So, there have been several questions. I am not very satisfied in understanding the process or how we ensure that accountability, so I look for the minister to perhaps review the situation and ensure clear criteria on accountability for MEAP. Mr. Newman: You can be assured that the committee that does the selection, any one of those members is not the person that does the audit. That is a matter of policy.

But looking at the same numbers that you brought to our attention and being exposed to the detail that I have, you have made me accountable on the record to make sure that I am satisfied that this process does meet the standards expected of taxpayers of Manitoba who contributed part of the investment. I will, of course, make sure that I am satisfied that that trust is exercised in those checks to ensure that the monies are appropriately spent, is a process that has adequate checks and balances to it.

That is why another department auditor was brought in to establish-the internal auditor was brought in from the Department of Finance to give guidance as to how the program should be conducted. One thing that I will look at in particular is what random means, and the other thing I will look at in particular is why there have not been audits done, according to my record, since-site inspections-May of 19 97, and I will provide you with answers not only to both of those but will respond and indicate what the deputy minister has chosen to do to address those two points. Ms.

Mihychuk: I thought that maybe we could move off of it, but the minister's comments raised just one more area that I want clarification on, and that is the MEAP co-ordi nator. That individual is a member of the Marketing branch. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: This individual is responsible for overall administration. Did I understand the minister to indicate that they also are the ones who do the selection ofthe site inspection? Mr. Newman: The MEAP co-ordinator may make and normally would make a recommendation, but the choice of geologist is not made by the MEAP co ordinator. Ms.

Mihychuk: How does the MEAP co-ordina tor provide all the detailed information to the geologist who would do the site inspection? Mr. Newman: There is a checklist and criteria. Ms. Mihychuk: So, if I understand, the MEAP co ordinator may select the companies for the site selection. What I am trying to get at is that it seems to me that the Marketing branch probably has plans or a certain intent identified by the company, and I am wondering about the link.

Is there a clear link between that person who is fairly administrative in their role, I understand, with the people who may be in the field already who are going to be going out to a local project? What types of lines of communication is there between that MEAP co ordinator and the field inspectors? *

(1550) Mr. Newman: There is communication between Marketing and geology, and the means of communication is discussion and then, normally, memo. Ms. Mihychuk: I am going to move off of this line. I think that the minister's exploration into the MEAP accountability sector may establish the fact that there needs to be clearer lines of communication between the Marketing individual and the people who may go out into the field. I think that would be an improvement.

The MEAP co-ordi nator I do not believe is a geologist with geological experience, and there may need to be some partnering in those two services because we are dealing with the mining industry, and as we talked about, there needs to be a strong sense of accountability. So I will leave that area and ask what other activities the Marketing branch has been up to and ask them what activities, and that is the first one identified, promotes economic development opportunities for base and -

April 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 21 19 precious metals and industrial minerals. What initiatives has the Marketing branch done to promote industrial minerals? Mr. Newman: Growing out of a meeting held at the Mining and Minerals Convention in November, a collaborative effort between members of industry and the branch have been working to develop an industrial mineral advisory committee. It will be an advisory body to help the department set priorities and to identify key sectors that should be focused on and promoted.

The direction then or recommendations growing out of that will be implemented by the Marketing area to the extent that our resources and capacities permit. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister provide for us a list of conferences and promotional trips that the Marketing branch has undertaken to promote mining in Manitoba? Mr. Newman: Maybe I could just add to that last response. In addition to the industrial mineral advisory group, a business-developed officer has been dedicated to industrial minerals as a part of the responsibilities of that position.

I am sorry, could you repeat the question which you put just moments ago? Ms. Mihychuk: My question is if the minister could provide us with an itinerary, I guess, of the Marketing branch, where they went, to what conventions and conferences and other promotional activities they undertook to sell our resources and attract companies here to Manitoba. Mr.

Newman: Excluding potash, the conferences were the Titanium Oxide Conference in Vancouver; the North East Mining Conference in New York, New York; the North West Mining Conference in Spokane, Washington; Western Investment in Mining Conference in San Franc isco; the Cordilleran Roundup Pathways '98 in Vancouver; The Prospectors and Developers Association in Toronto; a Mid-Canada Mining Corridor Conference in Thompson; company call-backs; visitations in Vancouver and Toronto; new company visits in Calgary and Vancouver and the Nunavut mining conference in Cambridge Bay. Ms.

Mihychuk: When was the last time the department attended the construction industry's convention or had an association with the construction industry? Mr. Newman: I know the deputy minister and myself and at least one of our department members and one of my staff attended the Heavy Construction Assoc iation meeting where I gave a speech on the quarry rehabilitation program and sustainable development. That was in Winnipeg a couple of weeks ago. There is a continuous working relationship with the Heavy Construction Association and its members.

One of the staff who I had the good fortune to meet and have a lengthy conversation with, and also members of the industry, a chap named Brian Bailey, who is a manager of inspection of the rehabilitation work pursuant to that policy has a regular working relationship with that segment of the industry. I might say I received many positive comments about the quality of the relationship the department has and how generally happy they are with that particular program. *

(1600) Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate the value of base precious minerals in industrial minerals as a follow-up? We were just talking about the construction industry and their needs. Is that included under industrial minerals, or is that separated? Mr. Newman: The Mines Branch has the most significant involvement and relationship with the aggregate portion of industrial minerals. Ms. Mihychuk: Does the Marketing department have information as to the value of Manitoba's minerals -base, precious minerals, and industrial minerals? Mr. Newman: Are we talking values of production? Mr.

Chai rperson: The honoura ble member for St. James. The honourable member for St. James. Ms. Mihychuk: Oh, yes, I am, sorry. I snoozed there- I sort of lost it.

212 0 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 Mr. Newman: We do not have that infonnation handy, but to make sure we have accurate infonnation, we will undertake to provide that to you. Ms. Mihychuk: I see here that this is the branch that also plans and co-ordinates the mining convention and runs the MEAP, as well as provides business liaison individuals. Can the minister identify how many staff are accordingly responsible to those sectors? Mr.

Newman: The convention allotment of staff is one co-ordina tor with a planning committee made up of several staff from throughout the department; MEAP, two staff plus a panel; and business development, three staff plus the director, and the time devoted to that aspect by the deputy minister or the assistant deputy minister and myself, the minister. Ms. Mihychuk: That does not, as far as I can figure, account for the whole staff allocation in the Marketing branch. Perhaps a better question would be- there are 17.5 positions identified in that branch.

Can the minister explain for us or outline what those positions are related to? Mr.

Newman: The 17.5 FTAs are the director; the infonnationlbusiness development officer support-do you want the names?-the business development officer; library technician; publications and graphics officer; graphics technician; manager infonnation resources -vacant position- publishing assistant; convention assistant, which position is now part of business development; library website technician; library technician; program co-ordi nator, MEAP; administrative secretary; convention co-ordi nator; infonnation clerk; business development officer; administrative secretary; and MEAP assistant. * (16 10) Mr .

Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Ms. Mihychuk: This is a branch that deals with the library and publications, and I have a question on that as well. It probably would have been easier for us to just go through that in the beginning because I had forgotten that they also handled library services and the infonnation desk in the front, but I look to the minister for policy guidance here in tenns of a vision of reports and infonnation generation. Geologists go out in the field, collect inf onnation and then produce several different types of infonnation sources.

Some of it comes out in the mines convention, and then there is a preliminary. That is usually the time of the release of preliminary infonnation, and then later on at some time, ifl remember correctly, eventually a report comes out with greater detail. Now, I know that some reports have taken several years to complete, and there has always been a question of relevance of that infonnation because of its timeliness and how quickly things are changing in the mineral industry.

I am wondering if the minister has a thought of the future in tenns of providing infonnation to the industry and those interested in that type of infonnation, and what is the vision for the future? Are we going to continue to put out final reports that maybe take years to produce? Are we going to enhance preliminary infonn ation? Are we going to go online? What is the vision for disseminating infonnation from the department? Mr.

Newman: As you know, the vision is towards the use of the Internet as the ma jor communications highway or tool, and the digitization process has progressed to a point where the largely paper focus is being replaced by an electronic on-time, ready-access kind of program. There is a data delivery plan which is targeted towards launching operationally at the next Mines and Minerals Convention in November of'98 for testing, as I understand it, at that particular convention, so that there will be some feedback by people that participate in that convention. Ms.

Mihychuk: Ifl remember correctly, the minister's introductory statements indicated that there were, I believe, eight reports being published or were published this year. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: The number was nine reports. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate what type of reports these are? Are these all geological reports? Are there petroleum? Are there energy reports included? Mr. Newman: While I am waiting for the specific answer to that question, it might be timely to respond more fully to the previous question that another focus

April 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2121 or changed focus in the publication approach is to move towards more open-file reports with more raw data and less

interpretation, with more detailed reports to follow later so we would avoid, discourage delay for the sake of adding that dimension to the report. The category of those nine reports, classification of the nine reports is mineral deposit series, open-file reports, report of activities, and one aggregate report. Ms. Mihychuk: Let me first start with the open-file reports. These are reports that are done on an annual basis from field crews. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: Generally speaking that is correct, but sometimes it goes back two years with mapping activity. Ms.

Mihychuk: And how many of those reports were open-fi le reports? Mr. Newman: Four. Ms. Mihychuk: What is the average length of time to produce a geological minerals report? Mr. Newman: I am advised a range of two months to two years. * (1 620) Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I think then things have really sort of sped up in the departm ent, and that is a very positive component I hear the minister raised since I left the department. I would be glad for him to investigate my publication record and the speed of report writing of myself and, perhaps, compare it to other geologists.

In fact, the report that was just released in my name -I believe that is one of the reports this year-so under this minister a report as a geologist by me has just been published. That was turned over to the department way back I think before I had grey hair, and fully completed in, I believe, 19 89, so from the response it sounds like things have definitely improved in terms of production, and that one must have got lost in all of the other reports in production. But I can assure you the author had the information turned in as she was anxious for the payment.

My questions are because I think that there is need for review of the timeliness and the length of time that we spend producing geological reports. The information is collected in a field season. We can produce them for the meeting with industry, and I know there is follow-up. There has to be analysis of the samples, et cetera, but I would urge the minister to move towards that direction, move towards open file reports. I know this is going to be somewhat controversial. There are many of my former colleagues who view themselves as academics, and they have a role in providing a foundation of information.

But I would say that this is kind of a tough world now and we need to crank out the information. That is the primary focus. We want to get mmmg companies and industry interested in what we can provide to them and so rapid production of these reports, I would say, should be a priority.

Interpretation and geological investigations are very important, but I would argue probably belong in other sectors like the academic sector and perhaps the Geological Survey, and urge the minister to perhaps review the timeliness of some of these reports. For example, you have nine reports. One of them is 10 years old. The others, you have open file reports and I think those are quite speedy, but you have got, then, four geological reports, I believe you have about perhaps-! do not want to guess, but are there 30 geologists in the department?

So the number of reports coming out from those professionals is quite low. That is only about 10 percent. This is another area, I think, that really requires some focus. I am a strong proponent of getting all those professionals out into the bush and into Manitoba doing that good work that I know they can do for the full field season, coming back to produce meaningful, timely reports that are going to be relevant to the users in Manitoba, and I urge the minister to move ahead in this area as quickly as possible. Mr.

Newman: I think your sentiments echo those that my staff have expressed through me here today, and that is their commitment. The number is 32 geologists. The other point is they produce not only reports, but

212 2 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23 , 19 98 also maps, and 11 maps were published in addition to the nine reports. Ms. Mihychuk: I am aware that we produce maps as well, and those are extremely impor tant to the users. How many field personnel, or how many crews, went out last year? The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Okay, just for clarification, we are moving to another section. If we could deal with the one that we have been working at under Marketing, it would certainly be advantageous. Ms.

Mihychuk: I was just trying to establish how many crews went out so that we could get an impression of how many maps were published, and theref ore highlight that we have a problem in this area as well. Eleven maps are not a lot of maps, given that we have a significantly larger number of crews going out, and there is, I believe, a fairly large backlog. So I urge the Marketing department to maybe look at a publication strategy so that the information gets out quickly in the sector of databases, maps, and whatever additional information is available.

This is an area I recognize has got again desktop publishing component, and the costs that are associated with that, is that for contracting servicing in the past year? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: One of the purposes of this branch is to monitor market trends and interpret their impacts on Manitoba. Has there been a stra tegic analysis done of the low mineral prices and the trend toward going into a downturn here in Manitoba and the impacts on our mining economy? Mr.

Newman: Yes, the market prices are trac ked, and that certainly guides the valuation programs like MEAP and helps in the focus of the Marketing group and their rela tions to customers and relations to the world at large in terms of how they focus their efforts at marketing oppor tunities at different conferences and that kind of thing, so certa inly it is a guide. It is part of the market ing function, the customer service function. Ms. Mihychuk: I thank the minister, and I am ready to move on to another section. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Item 23 .2 .(

a) Marketing (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $81 7,400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $434, 800-pass. Moving on to 23 .2.(

b) Petro leum and Energy (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Ms. Mihychuk: One of the new initiatives I see in this

section is something that is quite surprising, quite frankly, to me, the increase of two full-time positions worth $1 09,000 related to climate change initiative. Can the minister explain what this climate change initiative is? Mr. Newman: I really explained that at some length to your colleague the MLA for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) just after you left. Do you want me to repeat it, or do you want to consult him or Hansard? * (16 30) Ms.

Mihychuk: I have numerous questions about climatic change initiative, whether that is actually this title or not and these people are going to go about trying to change our climate-which I think would be publicly very supportable-but I think that there is still large speculation whether there is significant climate change or not, so it leads me to a whole series of questions. It may be better to move on and try and-either you have to repeat it for me, or I would be glad to move on to another

section and come back to this. Mr. Newman: I can give you the essence of the strategy and that might be sufficient for you. The key part of the strategy relates to addressing the challenge of an excessive amount of carbon emissions in accor dance with the recent agr eement on climate change by focusing on the Manitoba significant advantage in relation to renewable hydroe lectric power. The very imminent effort to get a strategy to be more than just a Manitoba strategy is my attendance tomorrow at an energy and environment ministers' conference in Toronto which is addressing this kind of issue, and our goal is to maximize the amount of support we can get for a national initiative promoting -

Apr il 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 212 3 hydroelectric power and attracting a maximum amount of federal support for that. That is unquestionably the most significant initiative that can make the most significant contribution to the challenge of climate change while, at the same time, promoting economic benefits for Manitobans. The other thrusts are in relation to ethanol and looking at that as an encouraged means, as a way to address the climate change challenge. The other is the energy ef ficiency or conservation approach.

We discussed everything from the R-2000 program to other innovative kinds of initiatives that can make a contribution towards the very, very demanding goals that have been set for this country. The two policy program analysts are going to have their efforts focused on doing an inventory of greenhouse gases and forecasting of energy use in Manitoba and will also contribute to the development of that transportation options paper.

I mentioned to your colleague that, for example, there would be a review of the pros and cons of substituting alternative fuels in our special operat ing agency operating our fleet of motor vehicles, looking at natural gas and propane as possible alternatives. All of this would be consistent with an overall approach focusing on energy efficiency and energy sources and tra nsmissions that are economic in their own right and that provide for a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Ms.

Mihychuk: Is the climate change initiative articulated in a booklet or some sort of public statement as to its goals and its objectives? We do use the term "climate change," and I am assuming that there is a specific reason for that. I believe that it was this government that actually released numerous energy policy people from the department. I understand that was a real shortfall to the Energy Branch, and I am just trying to understand the purpose here.

The policy analysis is important and we look to those goals, but is the climate change definition related specifically to the federal initiative, so that is the purpose of calling this climate change, when it looks like they have a broader mandate? These are policy people. I look to the minister. Mr. Newman: I think the short answer is that we are just taking it as a given that the federal government has entered into commitments. Without going our own path and attempting to second-guess all of the world class science that has been applied to this and intelligence, we regard this as a Canadian obligation.

We intend to, through our department in co-operation with other departments of our government, contribute to the international obligations that the federal government has committed us to as a country, and we believe that we can make a contribution that can significantly impact not only Canada but North America and maybe beyond. Ms. Mihychuk: Is this an initiative that other provinces are undertaking under the Energy and Mines departments or is this rela ted to Environment? Mr. Newman: It is a joint eff ort, and I will learn a lot more about that tomorrow.

I participated at meetings with colleagues who are Energy ministers, and there has been a recent joint meeting of Energy and Environment ministers pre-Kyoto. This is the first post Kyoto jo int meeting of ministers. We do not at this moment have a formal climate-change action plan for the province, but it is in the process of being developed in co-ordination with the Department of Environment and the Sustainable Development Co-ordination Unit and our departments through this particular branch. *

(1640) Ms. Mihychuk: Has consider ation been given to moving the Energy unit to another department? Mr. Newman: Who by? Certainly not by me. I think it is well positioned where it is now and allows us to rela te in very appropriate and effective ways multijurisdictionally. Ms. Mihychuk: raise that because there is a -organizationally, the Energy sector is sometimes placed with Mines and other times placed with the Environment . In fact, the minister himself said he was going to a conference on energy and environment. The unit or the branch has sometimes seemed to have a completely different focus than the rest of the department, and that being Mines which is mineral

212 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 19 98 sector and natural resources, while the Energy component seemed to be somewhat diver gent, doing a lot of energy conservation progra ms. It actually worked quite closely with Hydro, and that is very understandable, so it is another sort of component of where do we belong. That is always a question that comes up when you are in these different depart ments. Sometimes they are grouped because of convenience or many sections are related to other departments.

I just raised that because this group has now become so much significantly decreased over the last number of years that their focus has obviously diminished. Some of the stuf f that they were doing in terms of energy conservation projects and other initiatives have now moved to other departments. A good example is Manitoba Hydro which is doing a lot of initiatives in businesses and other things in terms of retrofi tting and energy conserva tion.

So the question was a matter of administrative policy and whether the minister or the government had looked at perhaps an evaluation whether they are placed in the best places. Is that the link that is working the best now in today's world? It may be different than 20 years ago when they were merged. I am not even quite sure when it was. I do recall back in the '80s, they were physically separated from the department. It has always kind of been a strange marriage where the two components of the department seem to have quite divergent sorts of perspectives. Mr.

Newman: I am ofthe opinion that it is impor tant to have a depar tmental component which has the capacity to vigilantly monitor inde·pendently for the people of Manitoba the kinds of issues that arise in Manitoba Hydro. I think it is important to maintain a capacity to formula te energy policy under the guiding leadership of this particular bra nch.

It is very useful, I think, to have a dedicated energy focus, as distinguished from an environmental focus, so that they interact but each advocating positions that are representative of their reason for being, with a sustainable development kind of balanced resolve emerging out of it. I must say, when I came in, I wondered how that would work. I am actually very pleased the way it is working, so the extent I have the ultimate decision on this or a significant influence over the decision, I am very pleased with the status quo, and I am particularly pleased about the enhancement in terms of staffing to this area.

There were all the departments, and all Manitobans participated in an effort to try and get into repeated budgetary surpluses and meet the challenge of the discipline of the balanced budget legislation. Be cause that is working and because all the other policies of this government are working, we can now focus on the very important challenges that are faced by our energy policies to emerge and by our Department of Environment in ensuring the environment is appropriately protected over the long haul. Ms.

Mihychuk: Are these two positions going to be permanent to the department after this climatic change initiative is completed? Are they hired specifically for this initiative, or are they intended to be permanent positions? Mr. Newman: Again, within my influence and control and advocacy, the intention would be these would be a permanent component. * (1 650) Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate what Manitoba's oil and gas reserves are? I believe last year we looked at Estimates that indicated about 10 years, but I also know from other announcements and the ministry that there have been some new discoveries.

Have reserves been extended in Manitoba? Mr. Newman: We do not have the 19 97 figures yet, but the estimate is that the proved reserved additions are likely to show an increase of 10 percent over the 12 8, 800 cubic metres showing for 19 96, and the remaining proved reserves in 19 96 were 5,077,700 cubic metres, so it is projected that that will increase so that will be over 5,200,000 cubic metres. Mr . Chair person in the Chair Ms. Mihychuk: I guess my question is: the reserves have incr eased slightly, but we have been extrac ting reserves at unprecedented ra tes.

What is the lifetime expectancy of the Manitoba oil and gas deposits? -

Apr il 23, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 212 5 Mr. Newman: The life index for 19 96 was 8.3 years, and it is estimated that that will increase this year. Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister concerned about the relatively short number of years that looks like is available for the production of oil and gas in Manitoba? Mr. Newman: It is something that one should know. I mean, there is not an unlimited identified reserve of crude oil in the province.

This is the identified reserve, with a great deal of exploration opportunities that have been made available to companies, which is what is largely an explor ation area now has been available since ever-the correct way of expressing that would he the amount of Crown land under disposition is the highest it has ever been in the province's history, so the reason for investing PEAP money, for example, is to have inducements to have Greenfield wells is to expand the proven reserves.

So, sure, we have enough understanding of what the future is that we are taking steps to expand investment and exploration in the province. Ms. Mihychuk: Did the minister suggest that there is a high potential to double our oil reserves? You were mentioning that there is, the future looks quite good. I took from the last statement that we are promoting the explora tion and development of our oil fields, so I am wondering if we are anticipating that there is going to be significantly mor e reserves identified by these exploration projects. Geologically, are we anticipating another find in Manitoba? Mr.

Newman: The re alistic and maybe optimistic goal would be to achieve a 20 percent increase in proven reserves which translates, as I am advised, into a 20 percent, roughly, increase in production. Ms. Mihychuk: If we were successful and found an additional 20 percent of reserves, that would extend the life of our fields for how long, could we say? Mr. Newman: This helps-there has got to be a clarification.

When you talk about the life index of 8.30, my understa nding is that involves the division of the amount of production into the remaining proven reserve s, so 61 3,000 into 5,077,000 is the 8.3, but I am advised that we have some existing producing wells in the province that have a future lifespan of 50 years or that kind of future to it, so this is a very rough way of getting some useful information about the limitations in the resource. But it does not mean that oil productio n or proven reserves disappear.

I further would add that the typical productive life of an oil pool can range from two to three years to over 10 0 years, so it is a pretty wide range . Ms. Mihychuk: The primary objective of this

section I would gather is to foster the sustainable development of Manitoba's oil and gas resources. Basically it concerns me a great deal that our reserves, given the present extra ction levels, are estimated approximately to amount to eight years, and that this government continues to encourage and promote the rapid extraction of oil and gas in Manitoba. I would ask the minister: what initiatives is he taking in terms of conservation of our res ource to extend the lifetime of our oil reserves?

We know that the governm ent has taken initiatives in terms of promoting exploration and extraction, but I look also for conservation which he argues is extr emely impor tant, and we are bringing on two policy people to look at exactly those types of things. How does the statements about concern about

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-36b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 36b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	99cf9aaa1e4e6f08ac8bb79f81e93f29d92f6b85

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