VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT FOR THE PERIOD 10:00 A.M- 1 P.M. Friday April 29, 1983 NO. 30

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1542 The House met at 10:00 A.M . Mr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Order, please! MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. JV - l MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, Government has been maintaining an ongoing liaison with Senior Executives of Petro Canada concerning the status of the Come-by-Chance Oil Refinery and the prospects for its reactivation.

While the company is continually monitoring world energy developments as they may impact upon the commercial viability of Come-by-Chance, given the current excess refining capacity particularly in Eastern Canada and in areas supplying the North Eastern United States, there is no immediate prospect for the reactivation of the facility in the short term. The Company, therefore, will continue to mothball the Refinery for the foreseeable future.

Over the coming weeks and months Petro Canada have informed us that they will be taking a number of steps which will help them in part to defray the ongoing mothballing costs. None of the steps contemplated will in any way impair the ability of Petro Canada to rehabilitate the Come-by-Chance Refinery if it is determined that such a rehabilitation is commercially feasible or justifiable. These steps are as follows: (

l) Removal of the catalyst from certain pressure vessels in the Refinery. In particular it is planned to remove the catalyst from the Platformer reactors and recover the metals contained therein.

(2) The Refinery has a spare parts inventory that is well 3 J Lt 4

April 29, 19B3 Tape No . 1542 JV - 2 DR . COLLINS : in excess of that required for an operating refinery and in some cases the inventory exceeds anticipated requirements for a five-year period . Petro Canada proposes to use the surplus spare parts inventory elsewhere in their operations .

(3) The Com!)any will be taking certain steps of a safety nature including the removal of temporary construction and start-up buildings that are no longer in a safe condition as well as the removal of insulation from certain storage tanks in cases where the insulation now constitutes a hazard. The work relating to the foregoing will commence this month and will be carried out by local Newfoundland labour and equipment wherever possible . Mr . Speaker, I would again emphasize that we l~ve the written assurance of Petro Canada that these steps 'o~ill in no way impair their ability to rehabilitate the Refinery in the future . Nevertheless, 33 ~5

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1543 MJ - 1 DR. COLLINS: in view of the fact that they will be generatinq some activity at the refinery over the coming weeks 1 I felt it important to inform members of this hon. House and the public of the nature of the work to be undertaken. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I was beginning to wonder when the hon. gentleman started his Ministerial Statement ; why he resurrected the oil refinery to make a Ministerial Statement on Friday~ I thought they were getting down to the bottom of the barrel but later on we discovered the reason why the bon. gentleman made his Ministerial Statement, it was because Petro-Canada is now starting to dismantle the oil refinery. Mr.

Speaker, they can make all the apologies and excuses they want and all the statements they want about how easy it will be to rehabilitate the refinery,to put the parts back that they are removing, the catalyst, to put them back when the energy crisis is over and there is a demand for crude oil. Mr. Speaker, I hope the minister is not naive enough to believe that this is not the beginning of the end for the oil refinery. What should happen is that the minister should say, 'No.' This government should get a Telex off right away to the federal Minister of Energy (Mr.

Chret ien) and say, 'No, they are not to take a nut or a bolt out of that refinery or not tear down any of the buildings.' Because, Mr. Speaker, there have been interests of late in that refinery. They have been ongoing for some time. Now, the hon. the Premier and the administration may not take these interests seriously, Mr. Speaker, but it would cost the Government of Canada or the Government of this Province nothing to find out if that refinery can be 3 3lr 6

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1543 MJ - 2 MR . NEARY : reactivated. Mr. Speaker, I have heard a number of statements over the last several months from the gentleman who built that refinery , that he •.vould like to have the refinery back and reactivated. well, it would cost the taxpayers nothing to find out what Petro -Canada wanted in the first place and our suspicions are now being confirmed, they wanted a dock down there and they wanted the storage tanks . That is all they wanted 3347

April 29, 1983 Tape 1544 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: as far as Come-By-Chance is concerned, Mr. Speaker, and they should not be allowed to remove a nut or a bolt from that refinery. Instead of the hon. gentleman getting up and agreeing with it, approving of it,he should get a Telex off to the Federal Minister of Energy (Mr. Chretien) objecting to it. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated in my Ministerial Statement yesterday afternoon 1 the contract for the Confederation Building Complex extension was awarded to Seaboard Construction- :1 Newfoundland company, A 100 per cent Newfoundland company. However the wisdom of the decision and the rationale for it was questioned by the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). Hence 1 my statement this morning in answer to his questions. Mr. Speaker, I repeat, the award was made on the basis of the Public Tender Act and the application of the Provincial Preference Policy.

The Provincial Preference Policy is designed to support, encourage and promote the effectiveness of Newfoundland industry and, admittedly, it is biased in awarding contracts for ~'ublic Work to local enterprises - and we make no apology for that bias. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: In application, the Provincial Preference Policy provides for an "overhead allowance" of up to a maximum of 10 per cent - an arbitrary but nonetheless reasonable figure - to eligible tenderers in accordance with the degree of their "presence" in the Province.

The criteria used in applying the "Overhead Allowance" attempts to elicit• (1) the amount of Provincial, Corporate and Newfoundland Municipal Taxes, if any, paid by the contractors; 3348

April 29, 1983 Tape 1544 PK - 2 MR . DINN : (2) the degree of corporate decision making tha.t is done in the Province; (3) the degree of engineering and estimating \~ork that is done in a Newfoundland office; (4) the amount of purchasing and procurement responsibility exercised at a Newfoundland office prior to tender; (5) the extent of the accounting and general administration carried out in a Newfoundland office . As indicated, the basis for evaluation of all tenders to determine a Preferred Bidder is the Provincial Overhead Allowance factor <tssigned to each bidding firm. 334 9

April 29, 1983 Tape No; 1545 SD - 1 MR. DINN: The Provincial Overhead Allowance is a percentage of a bidding firm's tender 1up to a maximum of 10 per cent 1 that is applied to compare that firm's bid 1 with respect to Provincial Content,with that of others received. The Provincial Overhead Allowance for each firm is determined 1 by and in consultation with the Department of Development,through a questionnaire designed to assist corporate provincial content based on the firm's answers to a series of questions 1 each of which has a weighted pro­ portion of a maximum of 10 per cent allowed.

The content of the questionnaire is summ~rized in the five criteria above. I am appending the working papers used by the Department of Public Works and Services to determine the preferred bidder. I would like to add, Mr.

Speaker, for the information of hon. members, that I received a call, and, as a matter of fact, a telegram from the Newfoundland and Labrador Building and Construction Trades Council, a council that represents 10,000 to 15,000 Newfoundland tradesmen who will eventually work, whenthe work gets underway, on this Confederation Building Complex, telling us of the unanimous support of the council for the way in which government has carried out this bid analysis. Mr.

Speaker, if there is any other clarification required by any member of this House of Assembly I attach all of the information from the Department of Public Works. And if there are further explanations required, the officials in the department are available to anyone who would like to enquire as to how the formula was done. But attached Appendix B indicates, for example, Seabord Construction as one of the top companies getting 10 per cent of the assigned POA,down to a minimum of zero per cent for 3350

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 14.4 5 so - 2 MR . DINN: companies that are totally outside the Province and have absolutely no presence in the Province. So, Mr . Speaker, I think if hon . members were to go through the different appendixes they would find that the procedure used by the department to recommend to gov ernment who the preferred bidder should be is very clear -cut. I think if they wanted to get into the technical detail they might have a problem and may need further explanation by the officials in the department .

But I think it is fairly clear -cut, once hon . members review the different appendixes that I attached for tabling in the Bouse this morning . And, Mr . Speaker, I am very proud tha ·t government was able to announce that over $20 million will be spent in the construction of the new Confederation Building Complex and that it should get underway very, very soon . S0111E HON . !11E11BERS : Hear , hear . MR . SPEAKER (RusseLl) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY : Mr.

Speaker, I am not allowed under the rules to debate with the hon . gentleman as to the ju stification, the merits, of extending the Confederation Building at this time 3351

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1546 AH-1 MR. NEARY: and building our third House of Assembly since Confederation. My understanding is that when the extension is put on the building the House of Assembly will be down in the lobby. Now, Mr. Speaker, I only wish I could debate the han. gentleman's priorities and if I did I would say is it . any wonder they booed him off the stage the other night down at the meeting with the Parent/Teacher's Association? Mr. Speaker, my colleague the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) commented on this matter yesterday and asked to have the documentation tabled.

He did not disapprove. MR. DINN: Oh yes he did. MR. NEARY: I did not hear my colleague, as the hon. minister just inferred, my colleague did not say that he disapproved of the - MR. MARSHALL: Read Hansard. MR. NEARY: Read Hansard. Yes, I will. He did not disapprove of it but he merely asked some questions because we believe, Mr. Speaker, that when government does something out of the ordinary, when government does not follow the Public Tendering Act then every detail, every piece of correspondence, every telegram, every single detail should be laid on the table of the House for scrutiny.

And that is all my colleague did yesterday, was to ask that that be done. PREMIER PECKFORD: You have it there. Sit down. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Premier says we have that there. Well, maybe after we look it over we may ask for further documentation. I heard the Premier last night say that he was prepared to give the House every detail they wanted in connection with this. PREMIER PECKFORD: and open. 3352 No problem then, we are honest

April 29 ,1983 TApe No . 1546 ah-2 MR . NEARY : That is right . It should be put on the table of the House . PRElUER PECKFORD: An open and honest government . MR . NEARY : Well , I am glad to hear that Mr. Speaker, so we will have no problem at all getting further documentation if we request it . But we will look this over , Mr . Speaker, and I am sure that it will be scrutinized by the other people who bid on that contract . And no doubt, Mr. Speaker, there will be threats of lawsuits and there will be legaJwrangles but that is not for us to get involved in .

Our main job is to see that justice is done , to see that the Public Tendering Act is followed to the letter . And, also , by the way, I might say that I have to commend the Auditor General who drew to the attention of the House some time ago that we are not paying enough attention to local preference . The Auditor General did that . So, Mr.Speaker, we will look over the docum en tation and if we need further information I am sure it will be forthcoming . 33 53

April 29, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. OTTENHEIMER: Tape No. 1547 NM - 1 The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform hon. members with respect to the take-over of certain areas of policing by the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, the actual take-over of policing responsibilities in the Northeast part of the Avalon Peninsula, including Torbay, Pouch Cove, Portugal Cove, St. Phillips, St. Thomas, Paradise, Conception Bay South, Kilbride, Goulds, and Petty Harbour, and the policing of those areas will be taken over by the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary as of 12:01 A.M.

May 2nd. of this year.- MR. NEARY: 12:01 when? May 2nd. MR. OTTENHEIMER: The only time you have is between 12:00 midnight , and 12:01 in which to speed there. These areas correspond to that area previously served, and served up until that time by the RCMP, Donovans detachment, except that the area will be extended to the actual boundary of Conception Bay South, therefore ending at Seal Cove Bridge. So as of 12:01 A.M.

Monday, May 2nd., that area of policing will no longer remain with the RCMP but will be part of the jurisdiction of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and obviously any police matters should be referred to them. I would wish to go on record as expressing the Department of Justice's and the government's appreciation to the RCMP who have policed that area under provincial contract since 1950, for the high level of professional police service they have given, and to assure the people in the area that the same high level of professional policing will continue with the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. 3354

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1547 NM - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: At the same time, rather than sitting down and getting up again, on another matter but closely related I wish to inform the House of Assembly of certain changes in the organizational structure of the Constabulary to reflect the new role it is playing in policing the metropolitan area of st. John's, and, indeed, in time, as already announced, 3355

April 29, 1983 Tape 1548 EC - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: other areas of the Province. As hon. members are probably aware, new recruiting procedures have been implemented and cadets, men and women, have been trained at the Atlantic Police Academy as a result of co-operation and agreement between the Government of Canada, the Maritime Provinces, Holland College, of which the Atlantic Police Academy fonns a part, the Newfoundland Public Service Commission and the Department of Justice.

There was a programme of continuous in-service training of all personnel and during the past cbuple of years, a large number of senior members of the force have successfully completed specialized courses at the Canadian Police College in Ottawa. The Criminal Investigation Division's role has been redefined and reorganized in an ongoing process to increase its effectiveness and to pre- pare for the expansion to areas of the Province already announced. A new planning

section has been organized on the administrative side of the force to handle planning, prepare for expansion and to design and oversee future training. A new internal Audit and Inspection Branch has also been formed to provide ongoing monitoring of various branches and to conduct internal investigations where appropriate. In line with these, I am pleased to announce the creation of a new rank of Superintendent, which will fall between that of Deputy Chief and Inspector. This new rank has been assigned to the Criminal Investigation Division and the Plan~ing Section. 3356

April 29, 1983 Tape 1548 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: We are therefore, very pleased to announce the promotion of Detective Inspector P. S. Waterman and Inspector Francis E. Fleming to the rank of Superintendent, also, the promotion of Detective Lieutenants, William J. Taylor and Walter L. Bennett to the rank of Inspector. this year. All promotions become effective May 2nd of Superintendent Waterman is currently head of the Criminal Investigation Division. He is forty-nine years of age, was born at Change Islands, Notre Dame Bay and has been a member of the Constabulary since 1958.

Superintendent Fleming is currently head of the Planning and Training Division. He is age forty-six, was born at St. Vincent's in St. Mary's Bay and has been a member of the Constabulary since 1955. Inspector Taylor is currently head of the Internal Audit and Inspection branch. He is forty-nine years of age, was born in St. John's and has been a member of the Constabulary since 1959. Inspector Bennett is currently seconded as a staff member of the Canadian Police College, Ottawa, and will soon complete his second year in that role.

In other words, for the past two years, Inspector Bennett has been seconded at the request of the Canadian Police College in Ottawa and is teaching there. He is the first, to the best of my knowledge, Newfoundland Constabulary member who has given instruction on such a continuing basis at the Canadian Police College in Ottawa. He will be 3357

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1549 MJ - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: returning to the Province to take up a position in the Planning and Training Branch in the late Summer of this year, He is forty-four years old, was born on Bell Island and has been a member of the Constabulary since 1959. So, I know that all hon. members will join with me in congratulating these Newfoundlanders in the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary who will be receiyin9 these promotions effective May 2,and I will have copies made and distributed of this material. SOME HON. MEMBERS: tiJR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am glad the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) gave us advance warning that one minute after midnight on May 2nd the areas around St. John's would be policed by the Newfoundland Constabulary. Because, Mr. Speaker, we have noticed increased activity of late in the area; police cars are patrolling the area night and day, but I am glad now to have that warning so I can watch out for tickets. r1R. sn~1s: Do you not always watch for tickets? MR. NEARY: No, I get the odd one. I am like the former Premier of this Province, Mr.

Moores, I get the odd ticket. One thing we had in common, the two of us, he liked a scuff, I like a scuff, he likes to put a heavy foot on the accelerator and so do I and I get the occasional ticket, Mr. Speaker, but the police are doing their job, I suppose. It is irritating at times. Mr. Speaker, any comments we made about the Newfoundland Constabulary in this House in the last few days is not a reflection on the members of the Constabulary,it is on the people who issue the instructions, especially the Minister of ~ustice. We certainly did not wish to cast any 3358

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1549 MJ - 2 MR . NEARY : aspersions on the members of the Ne1-1foundland Constabulary, who we think are doing a fine job . I believe the morale of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary has improved considerably under this minister and I would attribute that, Hr . Speaker, to the fact that the hon . gentleman does not interfere with the day to day workings of the Newfoundland Constabulary , he does not try to throw his weight around . Re lets the Chief and the Deputy Chief run the show and that is the way it should be.

Because in the pa st I had a feeling there was too much interference at a political level from Ministers of Justice . So I think the morale has improved considerably because we do not hear as many complaints as we used to hear from the Newfoundland constabulary . There was period, Mr . Speaker, in this Province when you could hardly turn on your radio but you would hear complaints from the Police Brotherhood . We do not hear that anymore. It seems to have died down considerably . 3359

...:· April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1550 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: And we want to congratulate these members of the force who have been promoted, especially the gentleman from Bell Island who has been seconded by the Canadian Police College in Ottawa, has been instructing up there for some time, Mr. Speaker, a gentleman who,! would say,has a great future with the Royal Newfoundilland Constabulary. we are concerned a bit, however, about the priorities of this government. I have to say this, Mr.

Speaker, it would be interesting to find out how many courthouses and howmanyjails have been built in this Province since this administration took over? They are great hands to build courthouses and renovate jails and penitentiaries, Mr. Speaker, they spend all their time at it. And now they are going to give us another House of Assembly. Mr. Speaker, they close up hospital beds, theY lock the teachers and the children out of the schools, and they open up jails. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! The han.

Leader of the Opposition is certainly not being very relevant to the l1inisterial Statement made by the han. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, also we are concerned about the cost of the expansion of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. the cost_ Because the RCMP have done a good job in this Province, they have all kinds of modern technology and equipment, they have the vehicles, now all this equipment will have to be replaced. MR. OTTENHEIMER: We pay the RCMP on a provincial contract. Now obviously that

section is taken out and we will not pay the RCMP . 3300

April 29 , 1983 Tape No . 1550 NM - 2 MR . NEARY : Yes, but \•le are goi ng in a lot of instances- like the people of Corner Brook ,for instance . do not want the Royal Newfoundland Con stabulary, they want - PREMIER PECKFORD: The people of Corner Brook do not want them? MR . NEARY : in Corner Brook . AN HON . MEt-1BER: MR . NEARY : They want to keep the RCHP There are a few people concerned about that. ~'Yell, Mr .

Speaker, what I would suggest to the government, and I am glad the Premier reacted to it ,because I believe the people should have a say in whether they want the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary ,o r the RCMP to continue servicing Corner Brook . A referendum in the City of Corner Brook should be held to determine which force they want. But, Mr . Speaker, the cost of expanding the Royal Newfoundland Con stabulary at this moment mus t be pretty big indeed . It must be pretty heavy , a heavy burden on the taxpayers and I am just wondering about the feasibility at this particular point in time .

Are there otherprioritiesthat the government should be looking at rather than expanding the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary at this moment? Mr . Speaker , I am all for it . I have 3361

April 29, 1983 Tape 1551 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: stated in this House on previous occasions that I am all for the Newfoundland Constabulary policing Newfoundland and Labrador. But, Mr. Speaker, I think it could have waited, there are other priorities that the government should have looked at before they started involving taxpayer money in expanding the Constabulary at this time. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker., I wish to table some correspondence which deals with the ongoing problems we have in the fishery that were addressed to some extent by the Lea.der of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary), in the Budget debate yesterday in this hon. House. I want to sort of go on record on behalf of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the other members of the Cabinet and the government, and for all members on this side of the House,to table and demonstrate our concern in the sort of hiatus period that we are in on this whole question of restructuring the East Coast offshore fishery. On April 20, I wrote Mr. Johnston, t:2e Minister of State for Economic and Regional Development,who is Chairman of the Federal Cabinet Committee who are supposed to be dealing with this matter.

I would like to reao into the record that letter and table the other two pieces of correspondence that go with it, his response to me when I wrote the letter and my response back. But I think the maj 'or part of it is the letter I wrote Mr. Johnston on April 20. 'I write to you to express my deep concern with the present situation of the offshore East Coast fishery. Particularly my concern centres on your government's present position on this important matter. 'The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador presented to your Committee the principles that 3302

April 29, 1983 Tape 1551 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKPORD : should guide a restructuring of the offshore fishery . That must be our goal . The restructuring of the the companies is a means to that goal . Furthermore, we are serious, While no one likes to see companies in trouble this does provide both governments with an opportunity to influence significant ch~nges wh :i.:ch, if handled properly, can improve this industry . 'After our proposal was presented, you wired me pointing out a number of areas in our proposal with which you and your Committee had concerns .

I replied giving what I thought were rational answers to these concerns . 'Since then your Committee has met and apparently given Mr . Kirby a mandate to resolve the whole ~ atter. As a follow up Mr . Kirby requested a meeting with representatives of the Newfoundland Government. They met in Halifax on April 12. We thought that this meeting would see a detailed response from your government on our proposal and a presentation on how your government felt the problems of the East Coast offshore fishery should be handled. 33G3 l

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1552 JV - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: "In fact, neither expectation was realized. Mr. Kirby and the other officials of the Federal Government, remained vague and general on the whole matter. The urgency that was so much a part of previous discussions was absent. 'The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador believes that the principles outlined in our proposal are valid. We do not believe that you or Mr.

Kirby, in your statements, have been successful in rationally showing that our position is not valid. 'What we are saying is that we should make together a gargantuan effort to maximize economic opportunities in Newfoundland given the present configuration of the industry as reflected in the present location of fish plants. Perhaps it will not work! Perhaps it will work! Should we not try? 'Let us draw up then a plan for the next,say, three years. That is,the two governments, the union, the banks, together, using the principles that the Newfoundland Government have put forward.

Now, perhaps amendments have to be made to some of these principles. But it seems the general thrust that we have put forward makes sense. All parties must be in full support of this approach - a half-hearted approach will not work. •crucial to the success of this approach is the full involvement of the Fishermen's Union, so that everybody is truly together and moving ahead with clear goals during that three year period. 3354

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1552 JV - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : 'Some of the items in such an approach are : (

A) A definitio n of the resour ce - existing exploited species and other species that are now not being exploited . What about the foreign allocation of fish under the European Treaty and will Canada make that fish available to Canadians? What about the fish that will become available after the French Treaty runs out in 1986? Will this be available to Canadians? I find 33G5

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1553 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: an attitude which says we cannot do anything on turbot which is available because we cannot catch it to be incomprehensible. That there is redfish available but there is no market. Yet many parts of the world are starving. Surely, if we can assist foreign nations in purchasing a Candu reactor something can be done to purchase redfish. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. PREMIER PECKFORD: '(

B) Sound regime for allocation of the resource to existing plants. This speaks for itself. (

C) Separation of harvesting and processing sectors. There. seems to be resistance to this concept. Why? The only reason advanced is you would need two management teams. So what? Is that impossible? Perhaps the separation has to be phased in. (

D) A joint agreement by all for productivity and wage rates over the three year period. Here the union is critical. (

E) Big is not by definition best. (

F) Quality at all cost. (

G) Marketing co-ordination. 'It seems that what is now happening is an attempt by your officials to work around the provincial government. 'If we are truly interested in Newfoundland and its present problems in the offshore fishery, then new approaches, creativity and innovation are urgently required. This it seems, is not what is happening. 'I am prepared to further discuss this with you at your earliest convenience.' Now, Mr. Johnston carne back and I will give this information to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) and to the House,saying that Mr. Kirby is still going to be involved.

And I understand, since I carne up from the 8th floor at four minutes to ten, that there is another telex asking for a meeting of Mr. 3366

AprH 29, 1983 Tape No. 1553 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Kirby and some people from our government . So we still do not seem to be getting the answers and know where we sta~d on the whole matter . But I want to table it in the House so that the member s of the Opposition especiall~ and the press are available to peruse the latest developments on it. I invi te the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr . Neary) comments . MR . SPEAKER __ (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY : Mr. Speaker, the hon . gentleman does not have to invite me, it is my right under the rules of this House to comment .

I do not need any invitation from the hon. gentleman , Mr. Speaker . He is making these remarks for t:.he part -time reporters from CBC radio . That is why he is making these little comments . Mr . Speaker, it is too bad that the Premier did not give me these letter in advance . Other ministers who made Ministerial 3367

April 29, 1983 Tape 1554 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Statements this morning did me the courtesy of giving me the statement in advance but the Premier does not act that way. The Premier, Mr. Speaker, likes to get up, read his Ministerial Statements and his correspondence and his letters which are very involved and very complicated and expects instant reaction from us. Now, Mr. Speaker, the letter that was just read by the Premier to Mr. Johnston has long-range ramifications and implications. MR. SIMJ.I1S: Right on! MR.

NEARY: I was hoping that the Premier today - and I agree with many of the points that he raised, by the way. I think Mr. Kirby will be the target of the union, the provincial government, the Opposition, the plant workers in Burin and Ramea and all these other communities, Mr. Speaker. In the days and weeks and months ahead, Kirby will be held up as public enemy number one. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Not Mr. Simmons? MR. NEARY: No, not Mr. Simmons and not Mr. De Bane or Mr. Morgan or Mr. Peckford. You just watch, Mr.

Speaker, I will forecast right now, I will make a prediction for this House that all the criticism will be aimed at Kirby, and maybe justifiably so, I do not know. MR. SIMMS: MR. NEARY: Like you did yesterday, right? Like I did yesterday, of course. And, of course, I motivated the Premier yesterday to bring this letter into the House, because he wanted to climb aboard my bandwagon. PREMIER PECKFORD: That was sent last week. MR. NEARY: I started the steam-roller going and the hon. gentleman, not to be outdone or upstaged by 3368

April 29, 1983 Tape 1554 EC - 2 MR . NEARY: the Leader of the Opposition, brought in this letter t.oday . Now, Mr . Speaker, let me give the hon . gentleman a piece of advice . There are five fish plants closed in this Province . Now, the hon . gentleman , instead of talking about allocations and quotas and separating the harvesting from the processing, things that have constitutional implications, jurisdic tional problems that would take years to sort out , what the hon . gentleman should do if he wants to put the Government of Canada on the spot is to tell Mr .

Johnston how far this Province is prepared to go financially to open these plants that are closed . No1.,., he should lay a plan out in this House . He shou ld be able to say to Mr . Johnston , 'Look, Mr . John ston, we will share the cost with you 50/50 .' Now, Mr . Speaker, that would be something . That would put the Government of Canada and the MPs from Newfoundland who support the Government of Canada on the spot . That would put them in the hot seat . Because Mr .

Johnston asked the hon . gentleman some time ago - one of his concerns was how far financially was this Province prepared to go in reopening plants th at are not considered to be economically viable? Now , that is the real question . So 33 69

April 2~, 1983 Tape No. 1555 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: let us hope that in the next few days in this House , the Premier shuts the House down for the Surnrner 1 before he will come in with a plan for reopening these plants 1 because that is the number one priority. Mr. Speaker, some of the things in here will take years to implement, but the urgent problem in the fishery in this Province is to get these plants in Ramea and Burin, in Harbour Breton and in Gaultois and in Fermeuse opened, T~at is the number one priority.

I hope that the bon. gentleman will address himself to that problem the early part of next week when the House meets on Monday. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SFEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I heard the Premier tell one of the part-time reporters at CBC radio this morning that he is enjoying the little word play that goes back and forth across the Legislature here. Well, Mr.

Speaker, he may be enjoying that sport but the children of this Province are still locked out of their schools by the bon. the Premier and the teachers are also locked out by the bon. gentleman. Now, yesterday in this House, Mr. Speaker, the Premier said that he could not enlarge on the teachers' dispute because there was some activity ongoing in that regard towards getting it resolved yet, Mr. Speaker, we are told by the President of the NTA that he is not aware of any activity.

Would the Premier please tell this House now if he would like to retract what he said yesterday in his statement to the effect that there was activity,or,if he is not prepared to retract, would he please tell the House and tell the people of this Province what is happening? 33?0

April 29, 1983 Tape ~o . 1555 MJ - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : PREMIER PECKFORO : The hon . the Premier . First of all,Mr . Speaker I do not intend to take some of these allegations any longer. On the question of lockout, number one, the leadership of the NTA were given the legal opinion that it was a strike before the partial withdrawal of services took place . 1\le were provided with a legal opinion from the Department of Justice, at the time that the NTA leadership were talking about a wit .hdrawal of services, that it was a strike .

I \o~ent through it with the President of Treasury Board (Dr . Collins) the day or the day before the withdrawal of services occurred . It is a strike, the leadership of the NTA were informed it was a strike before they had their withdrawal of services, as I understand it, we were informed by good legal opinion that it was a strike . So the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) should not continue to indicate that because it is an erroneous statement. It is a strike! The legal advisors to the NTA told the NTA that, the legal advisors to the government told the government that . That is a fact .

So it is not my fault that the students are out of school . 3371

April 29,1983 Tape No. 1556 ah-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Secondly, one of the problems we have had in this-and some day the full story is going to be told like all full stories will be told - is I do not know why Mr. Noseworthy said what he said last night. I cannot be responsible for Mr. Noseworthy's statements. I met with several groups of parents over the last few days and tried to give them as much information as I could.

I tried, honestly, straightforwardly in this House,whilst quite a few members of the NTA were in the galleries,and I repeat it here again this morning and they will have to go find out their own answers,and the Leader of the Opposition will have to ask the President of the NTA, but I indicated as much as I could indicate yesterday,in order to be honest and fair tn let the best chance exist for a settlement. I,fOJ? the life bf me,do not understand why Mr. Noseworthy said what he said.

There was activity going on when I said there was activity going on, there wa~ activity going on all through the night there is activity going on now and Mr. Noseworthy knows that. Mr. Noseworthy knew it when he said there was no activity going on . Now it is terrible for my word to have to be pitted against Mr •• 'loseworthy' s ~or Mr. Mr. ,·roseworthy' s be pitted against mine. That should not be. We have a very, very, serious situation on our hands, very, very , serious.

I tried to be as fair and straightforward as I could yesterday and I went so far as to cdrrect the Leader of the Opposition when he used the word 'development'or'movement' so that I would be completely objective when I used the word'activity'. And when I gave it and when I said it there was activity. Before I gave the statement, while I gave the statement, since I gave the statement and now there is activity ongoing. But it is terrible for me to have to get up {n this hon. House this morning and to once again through a statement of mine somehow be inconsistent 3372

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1556 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: with the statement from the President of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. All I can say - and it can be validated and it will be validated, in fact, after this is all over; it will be validated in fact - is that there is activity continuing, that we are trying our best to resolve and solve this thing, all day yesterday, all last night, this morning, right to this minute. Hopefully it can be resolved in the very near future. I appreciate the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary) question.

If I were the Leader of the Opposition I would have to ask the question that he just asked as well. I have just been handed a note. I have just been informed that the CEIC have ruled teachers involved in dispute do not qualify for unemployment insurance. There was a news report on about it at 9:30 this morning. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman now has created an air of mystery about all this.

The negotiating team for the NTA know nothing about activity, the president and the executive know nothing about any activity, and yet the hon. gentleman stands in this House and says there is. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not asking the hon. gentleman to tell the House any details of things that may be happening. I do not want the details. I do not believe in bargaining. 3373

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1557 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: I do not believe in bargaining, negotiating back and forth across the floor of the House. But there is nothing wrong with the bon. gentleman saying, "Well, look, what I was referring to yesterday was the meeting of the Federation of School Boards in Gander." Or, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing wrong with the bon. gentleman saying, "Well,this matter is being considered by Treasury Board, there is some activity in Treasury Board but there has been no approach to the NTA." There is nothing wrong with that.

There is nothing wrong with the han. gentleman talking about the other option, "We are thinking about arbitration ';"we are thinking about resuming mediation :• "I am thinking about going down and resigning, calling an election over this." There is nothing wrong, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please: The Leader of the Opposition is entering into the realm of debate and this thirty minute period is designed to ask questions. MR. NEARY: Well,the question I want to put to the han. gentleman, Mr.

Speaker, is could he be a little more specific because the NTA say they know nothinq about activity? The Premier has said that there is activity. Could he be more specific? Steer us in the right direction. There will be nothing wrong with that. I am not asking the hon. gentleman to bargain across the floor of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, my word has been questioned by the President of the NTA, I feel at this moment that I have no choice, I do not want to do this,but I am going to have to, I am not going 3 ro, 7 I J, 4

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1557 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : to have my word challenged by the President of the NTA or anybody else . The mediator has been meeting with both sides over the pa st day to put together a package to try to resolve this dispute . He has been meeting with Mr . 1qayne Russell of the Newfoundland Teachers ' Association , who has been meeting with Mr . Noseworthy and the other members of the negotiating team and the executive . ~ve have even brought in other pe ople , experts , to clarify certain matters on which they had some problems . rtr .

Noseworthy knew that v1hen he made the statement yesterday . As a matter of fact, if I am not mistaken , he was in on one of the meetings yesterday with the mediator . DR . COLLINS : He was . PREMIER PECKFORD : am not mis taken . DR. COLLINS : PREMIER PECKFORD : f-Ir . Noseworthy was , if I That is my impression . Yes , it is mine too . I remember the conversation . I had a Cabinet meeting at 6:00 last night to go through what the med iator has been putting to both sides over the las t day or so , and they stopped at five-thir ty this morning . What time did I have lunch yesterday?

I went down to the Newfoundland Hotel , and I left the Newfoundland Hotel and I came bac k here and met with our group of people through lunch until five to tb.ree, to go through what had 3375

April 29, 1983 Tape 1558 PK - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: come back from the mediator to us. He had met with the ather side yesterday morning. So the mediator has been working now for over twenty-four hours,with a couple of hours sleep this morning from 5:30 until 8:30 or 8:45 on new ideas and new proposals and new packages to try to solve the thing. I have been personally involved, the President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) has been personally involved, the Minister of Education (Ms.

Verge), their officials from Treasury Board and Education and myself, we have been personally involved with it right on through,even before yesterday, on new ideas and new packages. All of Cabinet was involved in it last night for an hour 1 and two or three days ago at a Cabinet meeting that we held at six o'clock, and two or three nights ago we were at it for a few hours to try to put together new ideas. Now if the President of NTA can come out and make statements like that, well , I just do not understand what the devil is going on. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr. Speaker we welcome the involvement of th~ mediator again in this dispute. The Premier could have told us that yesterday. We are not asking him for the details of the package or to bargain back and forth across the floor of the House. We are not asking that at all, Mr. Speaker. We are taking a very responsible position in this whole matter. We want to get the children back in school. I have two children in Grade IX out of school myself and I am anxious to get them back. I can stand here as a legislator and as a parent and I am anxious to get the teachers back 3376

April 29, 1983 Tape 1558 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: in the classroom, Mr. Speaker, Pretty soon we will be gone beyond the point of no return, so I hope now it will not develop into a controversy of who is right and who is wrong, that they will get on with the mediation. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition is presisting in debating in Question Period. He must ask a question or I will have to rule him out of order. PREMIER PEC::FORD: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I would like to speak to that point of order too. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier on the point of order.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Now we have been pretty flexible in this hon. House as it relates to Question Period. Now the rules are clear and the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) and the Government House Leader yesterday got up a couple of times on points of order on this matter. The Question Period is an opportun ity for the Opposition to ask questions and then for the ministry to answer.

And the Leader of the Opposition , in my view, as I submit to Your Honour,has over the last number of days­ and we have been fairly quiet on it,allowing flexibility­ has abused his privileges and the rOles of this House as it relates to Question Period, He is getting up in Question Period making detailed statements without any interrogation, without any hint that it is going to be a quastion . I would like for the rules of this House to be enforced so that the Opposition have their opportunity to ask questions and we. , as a ministry and as a government, have the opportunity to answer. May I further submit, Mr.

Speaker, that it was this administration and this government 3377

April 29, 1983 Tape 1558 PK - 3 PREMIER PECK FORD : that brought in what we call the Late Show . rncase there were times when the Opposition were not happy with the answers they got to questions, then on T~ursday afternoon they had a half an hour in which they could debate each side for five minutes for each issue, the answers that they got from the ministry. In the last four Late Shows on Thursday afte~ns they have done zero, they have not rlebated one answer that they got back from the minist ry . So there was their opportunity to debate .

It is in the Late Show which they have not taken advantage of as an Opposition , and which was provided by this administration when we changed the rules . SOt-tE HON. MEMBERS : MR . NEARY: MR . SPEAKER (Russell): Hear, hear ! ~tr . Speaker . The bon . Leader of the Opposition, to that point of order . MR . NEARY : To tha t so -called point of order , Mr . Speaker . It really is not a point of order. The hon. gentleman just took advantage of the procedure 3378

April 29, 1983 Tape 1559 EC - l MR. NEARY: t~at is used under a point of order to get up and to give his views on certain matters. The hon. gentleman obviously is rather testy today. He is in a bad mood today, Mr. Speaker. So I say to the hon. gentleman, So what! The hon. gentleman should be in a good mood. He is in a bad mood, and the hon. gentleman is now trying to dictate to the Speaker. The 'A.' in his name now, I think they are calling him 'Adolf' around the Proviuce.

Now the hon. gentleman is trying to pick a fight - he has picked a fight with everybody else - he is trying to pick a fight with the Speaker, trying to dictate to the Speaker, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the President of the Council on a point of privilege. MR. MARSHALL: A point of privilege arises.

The hon. gentleman is abusing the privileges of this House by getting up and addressing the point of order and continuing on in the same type of refrain, using the same type of inflarnatory statements that he uses from time to time on an issue that is most sensitive and would demand much more responsibility from an elected official, particularly one in the position of the hon. gentleman. Now, my point of privilege is this, Mr. Speaker, that points of order are not to be used by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to make speeches.

I mean, the hon. gentleman is not addressing the point of order,and if he is not, he should be invited to take his seat while Your Honour n·akes his ruling. MR. NEARY: To that point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. 3379

April 29, 1983 Tape 1559 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): To that point of privilege, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I do not think I have to tell Your Honour that the hon. gentleman who just spoke is abusing his privilege in this House by raising a point of privilege, because the only way that the hon. gentleman could stop me from continuing my few remarks on the point of order was to raise a point of privilege which takes precedence over a point of order. MR. SIMMS: You were not making any remarks on the point of order. You never said a word on it. MR.

NEARY: But it was not a point of privilege, and I am sure Your Honour will rule against what the hon. gentleman says was a point of privilege. I have a feeling Your Honour will say,'No, there was no point of privilege.' I have a feeling Your Honour will say to the Premier, 'No, there was no point of order, but the Leader of the Opposition should only make a brief

preamble to his question.' Well, I might buy that, Mr. Speaker, I might agree with that, but I certainly was not out of order. AN HON. MEMBER: He might name you. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege raised by the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), I have to rule that it was not a valid point of privilege. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: However, the point of order raised by the Premier was a valid point of order in that hon. members are not supposed to debate in the Question Period.

In fact, Standing Order 31 (c) - and I will again remind the hon. the Leader of the Opposition of this one - states "In putting any oral questions, no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except so far as may be 3300

April 29, 1983 Tape 1559 EC - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : necessary to explain the same'' . So the Chair has been more than generous with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) and he should be very specific with his questions . MR. NEARY : \vell, Mr . Speaker, I will be specific with this one about the sick leave . The Premier told this House a week ago that teachers would receive their sick leave payments, ~s . I believe there are twenty -t\-10 or twenty -t.hree teachers off on sick leave . The word has not gone from the Premier's Office yet dot;m to the Department of Education and these teachers have not received their sick leave pay . Would the hon . gentle~an tell the House 33B1

April 29, 19 83 Tape No. 1560 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: when instructions will be given to the officials in the Department of Education to pay out the cheques to teachers who are off on sick leave? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: It is just insulting even to respond to the Leader of the Opposition. The Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) has taken action on it. The word does not go down from the Premier's Office. It was decided upon by the Ministry of Education to recommend that to everybody in Cabinet.

It does not start in the Premier's Office and go down, it starts in the Department of Education and comes up to Cabinet. Action has been taken and the reason they do not have their cheques is because of the change in they way payments go in the computer system. We are working as hard as we can to get those payments out as quickly as possible. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) knows that. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: The hon. member for St. John's North. Mr. Speaker. Order, please! I have recognized the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). There have been charges, Mr. Speaker, of contract stripping against the government particularly with regard to the issue of substitute teachers, so I would like the Minister of Finance to comment on that. I would also like him to comment on the estimated cost of the gap that now exists between what the NTA is requesting and what the government is prepared to grant. MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: 3302 The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1560 so - 2 DR . COLLINS: St. John 's North (Mr. Carter) approached me some time ago to say that he would like to ask me this question in public . I asked him if he would be so kind as to delay asking the question . I said that I had given the substance of this issue previously in stateme .nts. I did not wish, at this particular time, to appear provocative in any way because there \"ere certain matters, in the best interest of the children of this Province in particular, that should not be aired . MR . NEARY : A point of order, Mr . Speaker. ~ffi .

SPEAKER (Russell) : A point of order , the hon . Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY : Mr. Speaker, obviously, from the statement made by the hon . gentlema .n, this is something that was cooked up between him and the member for St . John's North and I think that is an abuse of the Question Period . They have made a deal, they have cooked it up . The hon . gentleman went and talked it over with the Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins) . He is a member of the caucus .

The Minister of Finance could have given him the information out in the common room , but they decided to cook up a question to delay the Question Period, Mr . Speaker . That question is of such a general nature, as the Chair knows, that the minister can ramble on for hours, Mr . Speaker . That is an abuse of the Question Period in this House . 3383

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1561 MJ - 1 MR. CARTER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): To that point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the Quest~on Period is for all non-members of the Ministry. MR. NEARY: No, it is not. MR. CARTER: And the use of it is that the government or a particular minister may clearly state and clearly bind the government in public. It is one thing for the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) to give me an answer in private but,I submit,it is quite another thing for him to give me an answer in public and this is what I now request him to do. MR. SPEA .KER,: Order, please! There is no ru!e which states that a government backbencher cannot ask a question in the Question Period. This matter arose some time ago. While the Question Period is basically designed for members of the Opposition - MR. NEARY: Right on, Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: - there is no rule which says that government backbenchers cannot be permitted to ask a question. MR. NEARY: the principle . MR.

SPEAKER: There is no rule but it is against The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) did me the courtesy of informing me, as many times in ·the past Leaders of the Opposition have informed me that they were going to ask a certain question,and I appreciate such courtesies when an 3304

April 29 , 1983 Tape No. 1561 MJ - 2 DR . COLLINS: involved matter is concerned . I am grateful to the hon . the member for St. John's North (r1r . Carter) that he had similar courtesy in informing me that he was going to ask me about this comolicated matter. As I was mentioning,! asked him to delay,or possibly even to desist,because it might not be in the best interest of the children of this Province. However, he has now brought up the matter again and I am only too glad to answer. Mr .

Speaker, \llhen the new contract came up in the beginning,last August 1government had just one major change we wanted to make . The NTA had many changes . The gove r·nment had· only one major change and that was in the area of subst itute teachers' pay which everyone certainly evervone \•lith anv kn01-1ledge of the issue, knew it was seriously out of control and needed to be changed . Ne brought this up right at the beginning . Mr . Speaker, it was in our submission to the Conciliation Board and that was our one major point . Now , ~u- . Speaker, the NTA President wrote a letter a 330J

April 29,1983 Tape No. 1562 ah-1 DR.COLLINS : little while ago and I would like to quote a brief paragraph from it. !-JR. NEARY: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR.NEARY: Your Honour has been pretty good on the rules this morning. I believe one of the rules 6f this House is that answers have to be brief. What the hon. gentleman is saying now would be better made in a Ministerial Statement, Mr. Speaker. Obviously this is a cooked-up deal and I ask Your Honour to inforce the rules as far as answers are concerned.

Your Honour has done well to enforce the rules as far as questions are concerned · Now will Your Honour enforce the rules of this House as far as brief answers to questions are concerned? MR.MARSHALL: MR.SPEAKER: han. President of the Council. MR.MARSHALL: To that point of order. To that point of order. The First of all,how condescending and in breach of the rules the hon. gentleman is with his slather of inuendo that he constantly brings into this House with respect to the Chair and with respect to Your Honour.

I will ignore that , Your Honour, but if Your Honour wishes to take any kind of exception to it this government will certainly back Your Honour and back the authority of the Chair in this House. SOME HON.ME~BERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: The fact of the matter is the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) is answering a question of great importance in this Province and he requires time to give the information. The Question Period in this House is for the private members 3306

April 29,1983 Tape No. 1562 ah-2 MR.MARSHALL : of this House. It is well known that in the House of Commons every day members on the government side get up and ask questions,and so they can here from time to time, Mr. Speaker, because the purpose of the Question Period is for the purpose of disseminating information of public interest to the people of this Province and that is precisely what is happening now as a result ofthe answer being given to the question asked by the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter).as a result of the answer.

What the hon. member gentleman wants to do is to monopolize this House with his inanities and his arcane type questions. MR.SPEAKER (Russell}: Order, please! The Question Period is designed , as I said earlier, for hon. private members on either side of the House to ask questions of the ministry. It is correct that both questions and answers should be as brief as possible. However, there are times when, perhaps by the very nature of the question asked,the answer may have to be a little longer than perhaps is the usual practice. The Chair is prepared to permit the Hon. Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) to continue with his answer in the hope he will make it as brief as possible. DR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I am endeavouring to answer the question on this complex matter as quickly as possible. Mr. Speaker, as I was mentioning,the President of the NTA wrote a letter a short time ago and I would like to read one brief paragraph from it. That brief paragraph states,"Pay for substitute teachers was not an issue,since it had been previously agreed,in the presence of Mr. Blanchard,that the rate of pay for such teachers would not be reduced during the life of this agreement." 3387

April 29, 1983 DR. COLLINS: is not factually correct. that is not.what happened. Tape No. 1563 NM - 1 Mr. Speaker, that paragraph That paragraph is a fabrication, That paragraph was designed to give an impression, and indeed to appear to give information when no such impression should have been given. It was designed to mislead. Mr. Speaker, the facts of the matters are that we had a substitute teacher pay question that troubled us. We put a proposal on the table early on, That proposal stated - MR. NEARY: place into a bear pit? DR. COLLINS: Why do we not just turn the Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make the members of the House aware of my remarks,as is my privilege. but I am being interferred with by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Your Honour ruled that ·answers had to be as brief as possible although saret:i.Ires because of the nature of the question they may be a little longer. But Your Honour directed the minister to draw his remarks to a close, to be as brief as he could. Now how long more?

The hon. member has been at it for ten minutes, Mr. Speaker, How long more is Your Honour going to allow the minister to br~ak the rules of this House? MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. The hon. President of the Council. The way the hon. gentleman rises on his point of order I want to say, you know, is geared to bring 3308

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1563 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: down the dignity of this House and challenge the authority of Your Honour. Answers have to be as brief as possible. ~he hon. ~1inister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is answering a .complex question, he is answering it as briefly as possible - MR. NEARY: A cooked-up question between him and the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter). MR. MARSHALL: and the information that is being given, Mr. Speaker, is information that is of vital importance to this most sensitive issue. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please!

There was no valid point of order raised by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Do you mean to tell me that he can continue to break the rules? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Name him! Name him! Order, please! Is he allowed to break the rules? Order, please! If the hon. Leader of the Opposition persists in what may be an attempt to challenge the ruling of the Chair,then the Chair will have to take whatever action is required. MR. NEARY: ~tr. Speaker, we cannot play forty-four against eight now. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: privilege. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, on a point of The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, this really cannot continue. The hon . qentleman is challenqing the inteqrity 3389

J\pril 29, 1983 Tape No . 1563 NM - 3 MR . NARSRALL: of the Chair . It is not a case of forty-four against eight, Mr . Speaker . It is a case of parliamentary rules and parliamentary precedent . It is not a case of forty-four aqainst one . It is against one person , Your Honour, who is in the Chair . Now, Mr . Speaker, there is ample authority here in Beauchesne about the authority of the Speaker and the necessity of protect in g the Speaker in the Chair, the necessity of all hon . members of this House respecting the position of the Chair and the rulings of the Chair . I£ \'le do not have that we 3390

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1564 HJ - 1 MR. MARSHALL: have complete anarchy, Mr. Speaker. These are rules that have been set down, not by forty-four to eight, but by the British Parliamentary System that has endured for centuries. What the hon, gentleman is doing in making these remarks is challenging your ruling, is derogating the authority of this House and, Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. gentleman realizes the enormity of \orhat the hon. gentleman is doing, but if the hon. gentleman persists in this and continues, the procedure is quite clear, Mr.

Speaker, give me two minutes and I will give ample authority with respect to it, that the hon. gentleman should be asked to retract his remarks containing imputations against Your Honour and, if he fails to do that, there is an obvious procedure that pertains, Now, we would regret to see that obvious procedure used, but this government is not going to be intimidated by a Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary} who constantly says it is only eight to forty-four in this House and thus see the derogation of the system that has come down through centuries to us, a system that is going to be protected whether we are forty-four to eight or whether we are twenty-seven to twenty-five. MR. NEARY: To that point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell}: To that point of privilege, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: That is not a point of privilege, Mr.

Speaker, that is just an opportunity the hon, gentleman used to make a personal attack on the Leader of the Opposition in this House in his usual nasty, narrow-minded, partisan way, Mr. Speaker. There is no inference on my part as far as the Chair is concerned. I am well aware of the rules, Mr. Speaker. If I want to challenge any of Your Honour's rulings, I am well aware of the procedure whereby I could do it. I am not using that procedure so I am not challenging the 3301

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1564 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: Chair at this particular point in time, Mr. Speaker, and if I were I would know how to do it. I have nothing but the qreatest of respect for the Speaker and for the Chair, Mr. Speaker. And I well aware of the rules.! do not have to be lectured by the hon. gentleman. There was certainly no intention on my part to embarrass the Chair in any way, shape or form,but that is what the hon. gentleman is attempting to convince Your Honour of, hoping that Your Honour will deal with me drastically. Well, the hon. gentleman is not going to muzzle the Opposition.

The hon. gentleman does not own this House. Mr. Speaker, if they want to establish a dictatorship that is up to themselves,but we still have rights and privileges in this House and as long as we do things in this House within the realm of good taste, within the realm of the rules, then, Mr. Speaker, I suppose we have a democracy left in this Province although the Board of Trade told us in an editorial that they wrote in their magazine that they question whether freedom of speech is left, if we have anything left in this Province. So, Mr. Speaker, I would submit there is no point of privilege.

It was just an opportunity for the hon. gentleman to squirt his venom and his poison. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker .. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : The hon. gentleman has now given me the opportunity. Now, this is not my statement,this is a statement from Beauchense,which is parliamentary procedure. I am going tQ read it for the hon. gentleman and the House as well. Page 38, paragraph 117, "The chief characteristics attached to the office of Speaker in the House of Commons are authority and impartiality. As a symbol of the authority 33D2

April 29, l983 Tape No. 1564 MJ - 3 MR . MARSHALL : of the Eouse , he is accompanied by the Mace which is carried before him by the Sergeant - at - ~xms and is placed upon the Table when he is in the Chair .

He calls upon Members to speak and in debate all speeches are addressed to him ." Paragraph (2) "The Presidi ng Officer" - that is the Speaker - "though entitled on all occasions to be treated with the greatest attention and respect by the individual Members , because the power , dignity , and hono ur of the House are officially embodied in his person, is yet but the servant of the House ." There we go on , Mr . Speaker , and I refer you to May, page 441 , with respect to it . There is no doubt about it, Mr. Speaker, that this House cannot exist unless there is complete and absolute authority of the Speaker .

And further on in that same paragraph, the Minister of Justice (Mr . Ottenheimer) was reading along and he has given it to me he re, paragraph 117 (1) , " Refle ctions upon the character or actions of the Speaker may be puni sh ed as breache s of privilege . Hi s actions cannot be criticized incidentally in debate or upon any form of proceeding except by way of a substantive motion . Confidence in the impartiality of the Speaker 330 3

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1565 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL : 'is an indispensable condition of the successful working of procedure, and many conventions exist which have as their object, not only to ensure the impartiality of the Speaker but also, to ensure that his impariality is generally recognized'. And so it goes on. Mr. Speaker, this is well known. This is not the fiat according to people who seem to disagree with the government, who seem to want to take the position that they are being dictators and the hon. gentleman makes the statement. But that, Mr.

Speaker, once again, is a rule and regulation, it is precedent that is ingrained in British parliamentary tradition. What the hon. gentleman is doing is what he is accusing other members of doing - he is taking this House on the back. Mr. Speaker, no matter what he says and his cynical little smiles and grins, he is not, Mr. Spea·ker, going to take the House of Assembly, which is the House of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, on his back.

As a first step towards us he can start respecting Your Honour because we intend to see that each and every member in this House, no matter what side of the House they come in on, respect the Chair and the presence of Your Honour. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear, MR. CALLAN: To the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) To the point of privilege, the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, it is very obvious to anybody in this House, and perhaps to anybody anywhere, that the member for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) stood and asked a very simple question - 'Was there contract stripping?' The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in his answer went back to last August and rambled on and so on. 3')n 41 ,J.:.;

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1565 so - 2 MR . CALLAN: But all he had to do, which is what he finally did so, was read that one short paragraph from the four page letter fro~ Mr . Noseworthy to the Premier, where it said that pay for substitute teachers was not an issue, and so on, it was previously agreed to . The Minister of Finance (Dr . co~lins) read that and then he said, 'That is a fabrication , this is not true '. In other words, he had answered the member for St . John's North 's (Mr . Carter) question .

Why he wan ted to ramble on and waste the time of the House, and especially the Question Period which is designed mainly for Opposition members to ask questions , is the Whole issue here . It has been happening mor e and more frequently, Mr. Speaker, where ministers are taking unfair advantage of Your Honour. ~ffi . SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please ! The Chair has heard argument on this point of privilege from two speaker on each side . Some of the po ints raised in the point of privilege were well taken and the Chair will take the matter under advisement and make a ruling on it later .

The time for Question Period has now expired . 3305

April 29, 1983 MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: Tape 1566 EC - l NOTICE OF MOTION Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS complaints concerning the high cost of food and food price differentials throughout Newfoundland and Labrador have been received from homemakers, town councils and the general public; and

WHEREAS monthly food price surveys conducted by the Consumer Affairs Division have indicated that food price differentials do exist throughout Newfoundland and Labrador; and

WHEREAS it appears desirable and expedient that an inquiry be held into the matter of the prices charged for food throughout the Province; BE IT THEREFORE resolved that a Select Committee of the House of Assembly be appointed to examine food prices throughout the Province and, in particular,

a) to inquire into the various factors affecting the prices of food throughout Newfoundland and Labrador and

b) to make recommendations with respect to the reduction of food price differentials throughout Newfoundland and Labrador as well as · the reduction of the cost of food in general. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the members of the Select Committee to be" - I should inform hon. members that the composition has been a matter of agreement 3306

April 29, 1983 Tape 1566 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: between Opposition and government - are the hon. the member for Trinity North (Mr. Brett), Chairman; the hon. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), the hon. the member for Carbonear­ (Mr. Peach), the hon. the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow), the hon. the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) . So that is the Notice of Motion with respect to that Committee.

If the Hous~ is in agreement - it would only have to be with leave - we could pass the resolution now which would formally constitute the Committee and it could then start working whenever a meeting is held. That would be up to the House, if the House wishes to pass the resolution which would formally establish the Committee. MR. NEARY: Can we do that now? MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. NEARY: If the hon. gentleman agrees. We agree, Mr. Speaker. Just to show you how helpful and co-operative we are on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, we will go along with the hon. gentleman.

If he wants to pass it now, we will pass it and get the Select Committee of the House working. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you. I therefore move the question. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Is the House ready for the question? All those in favour of the resolution, 'Aye'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. MR. SPEAKER: Those against, 'Nay', carried. , 33Q7

April 29, 1983 Tape 1566 EC - 3 PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I want to present a petition this morning on behalf of 1,127 residents of the district of Naskaupi, which I have the pleasure to represent. 3308

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1567 JV - 1 MR. GOUDIE: ~e communities involved are the towns of Happy Valle~ Goose Bay, the town of Mud Lake, the town of North West River, and the town of Sheshatshit. It relates to concerns of residents in that area, in terms of action being taken in relation to the hospital at North West River and I will read the prayer of the petition, Mr.

Speaker: 'The undersigned urgently request the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to delay the decision to close the North West River Hospital until sufficient studies have been done on social impact and maintenance of adequate health-care for the Upper Lake Melville and the Coastal areas. We urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to consider,

(1) Chronic care and hospital facilities for North West River;

(2) Appropriate out-patients clinic with holding beds for North West River;

(3) Appropriate upgrading of the Melville Hospital.' As I mentioned, Mr. Speaker, there are 1,127 signatures representing constituents in the District of Naskaupi,from four towns. I ask that the petition be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition presented by the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) on behalf of 1,127 of his constituents.

I commend the hon. gentleman for presenting the petition, because last night there was a meeting in Torbay and the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) was given a petition signed by 200 teachers and refused to present the 3309

April 29 , 1 983 Tape NO. 1567 JV - 2 MR . NEARY : petition in the House . I do not think that is very democril tic , t-1r. Speaker. So I congrat .ulate the member for Naskaupi (Mr . Goudie) for presenting the petition on behalf of his constituents . He did not say whether he was supporting it or not but that does not make any difference, at least he managed to get the message from his constituents to the floor of this House , as the Minister of Social Services (Mr . Hic key) should ha ve done with the petition that he was given la st night on behalf of the teachers . Mr .

Speaker, in supporting the petition I have bo take the Gover nment to tas k again , because the minister, the member for Naskaupi, told us in this House 340 0

April 29, 1983 Tape 1568 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: on two or three occasions that he did not find out that the hospital at North West River was closing until fifteen minutes before the Budget· was read in this House. Mr. Speaker, that is shameful. That is a shameful way for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and the Premier to treat their colleague in Cabinet. I believe hirn,by the way. I think he is telling the trut~, I believe him. But, Mr.

Speaker, if I were a member or the Cabinet and I was treated in a shabby way like that by the Minister of Finance or by the Premier , I know what I would do, I would not put u~ with it very long, Mr. Speaker. But the hon. gentleman apparently is prepared to stay in the Cabinet, to support the Cabinet that would not let him know they were closing a hospital in his district. So, Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition and I hope that the Minister of Health (Mr. House) will do something for these people in North West River. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : and Manpower. MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of approximately 400, I have not had a chance to verify the total number, but it is approximately 400 people, some of which carne out this morning to express their desire to get the children of the Province back in the schools. And the prayer of the petition basically reads 'We the undersigned request that our children be returned to their classrooms immediately'.

I think it is everybody's wish in the Province, I think I can say it on behalf of every parent on this side and every member on this side and I am sure I speak for hon. members opposite,that it is the 3l+ 01

April 29, 1983 Tape 1568 PK - 2 MR. DINN: wish of everybody in this House of Assembly and outside this House of Assembly that the children get back in their schools as quickly as is humanly possible. And I place this ;etition on the table of the House to have i·t referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. HISCOCK: The bon. member for Eagle River. Mr.

Speaker, I support this petition signed by around 400 concerned parents, and it is a concern. 1'hc Women's Institute down in Labrador had their annual convention in L'anse au Loup last week, last Saturday and they passed a resolution-a petition is on the way- also stating that the teachers and the government should get back to the negotiating table. We, the Opposition, only want to see the students back in their classrooms and the teachers given their collective right under the bargaining process and binding arbitration, if needed.

And,of course,the government refuses to do this. \·~e were rather surprised that- as a member of the House of Assembly you have to present 1as the Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) just did 1 and the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) 1 you have to present petitions sometimes that you do not particularly agree wit~ but because of the democratic process you present them as a right of the people. I am rather surprised that the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey) last night refused the petition that was presented to him by 200 teachers to be tabled on the floor of this House. I am surprised that a minister of the Crown would deny the voters of this Province their right to petition the House, to ask that this grievance be settled. 3402

April 29, 1983 Tape 1568 PK - 3 MR. HISCOCK: But I support the petition which the i'1inister of Labo'-.lr and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) presented, and we hope that this dispute will be settled soon. The government have saved almost ~20 million, maybe some of this money will go into 3 lt 0 3

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1569 NM - 1 MR. HISCOCK: into new construction for Grade XII, and maybe some will go into health costs. But we, the Opposition and,as I said, the general public, are qetting rather concerned about the delay and the arrogant attitude of this administration in keeping the teachers out. So, Mr. Speaker, we support the petition and hope that there will be more parents throughout the Province, and students themselves, who will pressure government and the NTA to come to a satisfactory conclusion so that the students can go back to the classrooms. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon.

Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, just a few brief words on that petition. I certainly, whole-heartedly, support any parents in this Province who wish the schools to be open. We have been working tooth and nail, day and night, to try to resolve this issue. We have put forward many methods by which it maybe resolved. I have spoken with many parents and I have told them about our methods, our approaches, in general terms that is.

They have by and large, after I have discussed it with them ~nd-of course,the Premier himself has said that he has met with various groups and explained our stance on things -by and large these groups have understood our position. Theyhave felt that our positions were reasonable, they felt that our positions were often generous, they felt that our cositions were sensitive to any legitimate concerns the NT~ have, and particularly the professional teachers of this Province have.

The only thing that we have at the present time is we have a stumbling block,and there is a stumbling block,I think, that is obvious to everyone in this Province now and I do whole­ heartedly support parents who wish this issue to be resolved 3 4 0 !f

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1569 NM - 2 DR . COLLINS : and schools to be opened . I hope the pa rents in this Province will keep up their activiti es. I hope that they will not feel that their activities are not help ful, they are helpful . The go vernment is appreciative of them . We hope they wil l not tire . We ho pe they "lill keep the pressure on and I am sure that in time this issue will be resolved; it will be resolved hopefully, in an honourable fa shio n an d it will be resolve d so that the school system can begin to operate again for ~~ e benefit of the children. 000 MR . MARSHALL : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . Pre sident of the Council . 3405

April 29,1983 Tape No. 1570 ah-1 MR.MARSHALL: Hr. Speaker, just before we get to Orders of the Day-I do not think the hon. gentlemen opposite will object to this 1 I know they will wish to associate with it. It is not very often that this occurs but there is a milestone that has been reached in the family of the hon. the Minister of Health (Mr. House). Unfortunately , he is not here in his chair now, I think he is on his way to the celebration. This is the lOOth birthday of his grandmother, Mrs. l'amela Jlouse, which is a real milestone in every family.

I know that all members of the House wish to be associated in an expression of congratulations to Mrs House in achieving this milestone,and to the Minister of Health himself. He has a great prospect of longevity politically and I am sure this augers well for him for his own personal durability in the future. But excising from that the political considerations , Mr. Speaker, this is a significant event that is given to very few families to celebrate. The birthday occurs on Sunday, May lst,and I know that all members of the House,! am quite sure, would wish to be associated in a message of congratulations to Mrs.

Pamela House. And perhaps if the motion passes,Your Honour could arrange for an appropriate message to be fOrwarded to her so that Mrs House might receive it on her birthday from all members of the HOuse of Assembly. MR.NEARY: Mr.Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: We concur with that, Mr. Speaker . 3406

April 29,1983 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Tape No. 1570 ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion No. 1. ah-2 The debate was adjourned last day by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, during the Oral Question Period today we saw a typical example of the arrogance of this administration. We saw another example of how the administration are trying to do away with democratic government in this Province. Mr.

Speaker, the whole purpose of the exercise on points of order and points of privilege during the Oral Question Period today was so that members on the opposite side could use up the Question Period so that the Opposition could not ask penetrating questions of the Premier and of the administration while there was a large number of people in the Public Gallery. MR. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. The hon. member for St. John's North.

MR.CARTER: I was the one who asked the question from the government side as I have a perfect right to do and as it was established by the Chair that I had the right to do it. I pointed out that it is one thing for a minister to answer a question of mine in private , it is quite another thing for him to answer it in public. I certainly did him the courtesy of notifyir-g him of what question or questions I would ask. And let the record show that the Leader of the Opposition because of his intransigence and his obstructiveness that question was only partially answered.

I do not know when I will get a chance to ask it again. He is such a jack-in-the-box I would have to be very fleet on my feet to squeeze in between himself and Your Honour . MR. NEARY: r-1r. Speaker. An abuse of the rules again, 3407

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1571 SD - 1 MR. CARTER: I think that his charge is not only ridiculous, it is dangerous and damning and I am almost to the point of making it a question of privilege,because I feel that my privileges as a private member are seriously jeopardized by his attitude of trying to turn this whole House into a circus atmosphere.

And any impartial observer whowas in the gallery or was even in the con fines of this House or even within earshot of the microphone, the electronic system we have, would realize that he was guilty of great obstruction and he is just trying to turn this House into a circus atmosphere and is bringing the whole structure into disrepute. MR. NEARY: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To the point o[ orqer, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to belabour the point but Your Honour knows that is not a point of order.

It is just another example of how members on the opposite side attempt to abuse the rules of this House to squirt out their venom and poison across the House. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I rule ~ there is no point of order. The member took the opportunity to clarify statements that were made to him. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: If I may be permitt~d to carry on my few remarks, Mr.

Speaker, uninterrupted, without members abusing the rules of this House as the hon. gentleman just did and Your Honour ruled again- it would be a very interesting exercise indeed to go back over Hansard and check and see how many points of order and points of privilege are raised by government members, by ministers and backbenchers on the government side of the House when Your Honour rules there is no point of order, there is no point of priviledge. It is just time consuming and 3408

April 29 , 1 983 Tape No. 1571 so - 2 MR . NEARY : \-lasting the time of the House , Mr . Speaker. Of course, that is the purpose for their doing it. I guess . They just want to obstruct members when they are speaking . They cannot stand criticism . lYhen they are being embarrassed ,then they try to use the Chair to cut off debate . Now, Mr . Speaker, as I started to say when I stood in my place, this morning we saw a typical example o£ the arrogance of this administration . No\•, Mr .

Speaker, last April 7th when people woke up - the morning after the election - I suppose the thing that concerned the people of Newfoundland and Labrador more than anything else about that election was the fact that the government had been given such a lopsided majority, that there were forty -four members on that side and eight members on this side of the House . That is what concerned people of this Province, Mr .

Speaker , because they knew in their hearts that a government with a large majority - forty -four against eight - would in a very short time become arrogant, could misuse and abuse its authority and it s power . And that is precisely what happened , 3409

April 29, 1983 Tape 1572 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, and we saw it happen in this House again today. Now, they can try all they want, members there opposite can try as hard as they want to m~zzle the Opposition, to stop us from asking questions, to play little games with their part-time reporters, Mr. Speaker, from C.B.C. radio, who had every opportunity to take a little dart at the Opposition when they see the Premier is on the ropes and the administration is on the ropes, the part-time reporters trying to worm their way in, I guess, trying to crawl in, no doubt in anticipation of favours in the future.

They get their little flicks in, these part-time C.B.C. radio reporters, get in their little flicks that they think are smart, at the Opposition. Well, now, Mr. Speaker, they can carry on all the games they want. The fact of the matter is that we have a pretty tough job to do in this House. There are only eight of us against forty-four and, Mr. Speaker, we have no intention of playing against forty-four and the referee at the same time. We have no intention of that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: You are playing against the referee, are you? MR. NEARY: Well, that is right.

We are not going to put up with that either, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: You do not play against the referee. MR. NEARY: When you are out on the ice sometimes playing in a hockey game and you have forty-four over there and eight over here, sometimes you might have to play the referee too. HR. SIMMS: In a hockey game? MR. NEARY: That is right, in a hockey game. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): On a point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. 3 }, 1 0 .,. I

April 29, 1983 Tape 1572 EC - 2 MR . CARTER : I heard "'hat the hon . the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) just said and I regard ~~at as a criticism of Your Honour 's impartiality and I think he should be made to withdraw it unequivocally, immediately and forever . MR . NEARY : r-tr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : there is no point of order . That is not a point of order, To that point of order, I rule r.m . NEARY : Thank you , Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : Opposition . MR . NEARY : The hon. the Leader of the we had the interruption again . The hon . member is wrong again . Now , Mr .

Speaker , if I may be allowed to carry on uninterrupted . It is a fine day . You would have thought the hon . gentleman would be in his savory patch today where he usually is when the sun is shining, and not in this House . Now , Mr . Speaker , this is the third day of the Budget Debate . He are now debating the Budget . We have not finished the Throne Speech debate; I doubt very much if it will be called anymore this session . The Throne Speech Debate , which started about a month ago is only partly finished .

The House will probably adjourn for the Summer . \\le will meet again next Fall and probably carry on 34~1

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1573 JV - l MR. NEARY: on with the Throne Speech. So what we are doing now, we are having the Budget Debate. Mr. Speaker, this is probably the most important debate in this hon. House, the Budget Debutc, the most important. It is more important than any other debate in this House and I would hope that before the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) adjourns the House, until next Fall, that every member of this House will have an opportunity to participate in the Budget debate, Mr. Speaker.

The budget was brought down a couple of weeks ago, the Provincial Budget, and it was negative, it did not outline any plans for the development of the natural resources of this Province. All it did was ridicule and slander and critize the Federal Government and the Government of Quebec, and everyone and everything in sight, Mr. Speaker. What it lacked was credibility. It lacked, Mr. Speaker, a positive stimulus for the economy; it showed great disregard for the concerns of industry and labour in this Province.

There was nothing tangible in that Budget that would give the Newfoundland and Labrador economy the uplift that it so badly needs at this time. Mr. Speaker, last week, we saw the Federal Minister of Finance (Mr. Lalonde) bring down a Budget in which he demonstrated that the Government of Canada is wide awake and is anxious to make progress on all fronts, when in that Budget,compared to our Provincial Budget,there were all kinds of constructive ideas and plans and suggestions for stimulating the Canadian economy, for helping business and industry, for helping labour and to help the financial community. So, Mr.

Speaker, here in Newfoundland the Budget offered nothing, neither excitement or stimulus for the 31t i 2

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1573 JV - 2 MR . NEARY : Newfoundland and Labrador economy . The Federal Budget pro vided job creation, assistance for Provinces, assistance for business and industry and provided al l kinds of creative ideas to stimu~ate the Canadian economy . And , Mr . Speaker, instead of welcoming Mr . Lalonde's budget with open arms, this Province, where we have record unem ployment , the highest taxes in Canada, where we have an economy that is on the brink of ruin , instead of welcoming the Federal Budget with open arms , Mr . Speaker, the administration , led by the hon . gentlema n across the way , was very critical of that budget . 34-:3

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1574 MR. NEARY: So is it any wonder then, Mr. Speaker, that we see announcements like we saw yesterday, like we heard yesterday, that $51.8 million NM - 1 of federal money would be spent on a water-front development in Halifax? When I heard that, Mr. Speaker, I immediately asked myself the question, why not St. John's? Why could not that $51.8 million for a water-front development in Halifax, why could it not have been spent in St. John's?

Why could not the administration here welcome the federal budget with open arms and go after some of these projects, go after some of the $3 billion or $4 billion that is in there for public works projects? Why could not the administration here make suggestions to the Government of Canada, to the various ministers in Ottawa, present their plans and ideas for projects for this Province, Mr. Speaker, instead of condemning the federal budget forthright? Why did they not welcome it with open arms and .put forward constructive ideas and plans and suggestions and recommendations for megaproje~ts in this Province, Mr.

Speaker? That is what they should have done, instead of condemning and criticizing the budget right from the - even before Mr. Lalonde was finished his speech,I believe, the Premier was interviewed live on the federal budget. Now, Mr. Speaker, I believe in this Province that we have probably a better opportunity for megaprojects, for make work projects, for public works, than any other province of Canada. I can give hon. gentlemen a few examples of what I mean. The Trans-Labrador Highway would be a real worthwhile project for this Province, Mr. Speaker, to undertake, in co-operation withthe Government of Canada.

MR. DAtVE: Number one on our list. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman says number one on their list. It has been number one on their list for the last eleven years, Mr. Speaker. We saw the tunnel started 3lt 1 4

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1574 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: underneath the Strait.of Belle Isle, $160 million, what became of that? That is on their list,too. The Lower Churchill is on their list. The transmission line is on their list. The transmitting of power across the Province of Quebec is on their list. An aluminum smelter for Newfoundland and Labrador is on their list. ')f. 1 J" Jtl

April 29, 1983 Tape 1575 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: That list , Mr. Speaker, must be as long as your arm. What is the point of having these things on the list? As far as I am concerned,the number one priority 1n this Province right now is a Trans-Labrador highway. And, Mr. Speaker, I would say in spite of this Province that you are 'likely to see a start made on that this year as a result of a constructive federal Budget. I would not be at all surprised, Mr. Speaker, I would not be at all surprised but one of the projects on the drawing board, one of the one hundred would be the commencement of a Trans-Labrador highway.

MR. DAWE: The Premier told us that yesterday. MR. NEARY: HR. DAWE: yesterday. MR. NERRY: I see. I beg your pardon? The Premier told us that Oh, he told you yesterday. Mr. Speaker, a Trans-Labrador highway would open up the vast territory of Labrador, give business and industry and the Province access to the great storehouse of wealth in Labrador. It would be a real boom for this Province, Mr. Speaker. And I am hoping, if I have anything to do with it, if I have any powers of persuasion over the federal authority, Mr.

Speaker, I certainly will recommend and have recommended and will continue to recommend that the Trans-Labrador highway be one of the projects included in the hundred or so projects that were announced by the Federal Minister of Finance (Mr. LaLonde) last week when he brought down his Budget. Mr. Speaker, it will not be because of lack of effort on the part of the Opposition that some of these things will not get started. We believe that there should be a plan of development for the Lower 3 Lt ~ 6

April 29 , 1983 Tape 1575 PK - 2 MR . NEARY : Churchill , and , Mr . Speaker , I am rather concerned about contradictory statements that are being made ab out the Lower Churchill . The Premier told us in this Hou se tha t to develop the Low er Churchill , the Muskrat Falls at thi s particular poin t in time was not feasible , unrealistic, told us that it would be put on hold for the next te n years or twenty years . The other day down before the Public Utilities Board , ~tr .

Young, cousin Vic , told the Public Utilities Board that the number one priority in th e generating of electricity , ne w sources of electricity in this Province is the Low er Chu rchill and Muskrat Falls . and stated categorica lly that it was still feasible . Now ,who is right and who is wrong? Who can we believe , Mr . Speaker? The Premier , 1 do not kno w what is wrong with him these days. He makes all kinds of weird and st range statement s tha t he cannot back up . W e sa w a.n e xam pl e of that yesterda y w ith the teac hers ' strike , the teacher s' dispute .

The hon. gentleman had to come in this r..orning and try to straighten it out . He will come in now in another day or two,after I have raised this matter about the Lo\-Ter Churchill and what cousin Vic said about it in his statement . he will come back in and try to straighten that one out , Mr . Speaker . But who is right and who is wrong? 34~7

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1576 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: I am not convinced that the development of the Lower Churchill and the Muskrat Falls cannot go ahead. I would have to see the documentation, I would have to see the evidence. Certainly the Premier has not convinced me in the few words that he said in this House about the Lower Churchill. Why should we take his word for it? He gets up and makes off-the-cuff statements. Why should we, Mr. Speaker, he has been wrong on everything else?

He also stated that it would not be practical, it would not economically justifiable to develop the five rivers in Labrador, with their headwaters in Newfoundland and the rivers flowing into the Quebec part of Labrador. He said that would not be economically viable, justifiable. Mr. Speaker, I doubt that very much. Why would the Province of Quebec be so interested in· entering into a joint agreement with the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador to develop these rivers? Are they all fools up there in Quebec Hydro? Do they not have the facts at their fingertips? ]\l\1 T·J(1n. MT"!1B:CTI.: They are (inaudible). MR.

NEJ\RY: Oh, I see. They are a differnt culture than we are so they do not know anything. Mr. Speaker, I have no doubt but Quebec Hydro have sent out their experts,and they have sent out their engineers, and their economists and they have looked at these five rivers 1 They want to enter into a joint venture with Newfoundland on these five rivers and because of the stubborness of the Premier of this Province and his inability to get along with anybody,they have not been able to make a deaL And that is what we are talking about, Mr. Speaker. A deal is a deal. You make a deal.

That is what Quebec wants to do, make a deal with Newfoundland. They do not want to take anything away from us, they do not want to rob us of anything, they just want to make a deal. I released 34~8

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1576 MJ - 2 MR . NEARY : a correspondence there some time ago on this matter . Now, ~x . Speaker, are they crazy in Quebec Hydro to want to go ahead with the development of these five rivers? Mr. Speaker, I ask yoU ,\oJho is right and who is wrong? I am not convinced that it is not feasible to go ahead with the development of these rivers and the development of the Lower Churchill . Quebec has suggested a package deal involving the reopening of the contract on the Upper Churchill . They said, '\ole will reopen the contract on the Opper Churchill to give the Province of Ne\ oJfoundland more generous revenue than they are getting now 34~9

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1577 so - 1 MR. NEARY: and we will assist Newfoundland, we will put up the money to develop the five rivers. 'And if you want us to', Quebec says, 'we will also arrange your financing for the development of the Lower Churchill and the Muskrat Falls. And we will allow you to transmit your power across the Provin·ce of Quebec', so they say, 'and you can market the power yourselves for whatever the going market price is for electricity and we will just charge you a fee for using our transmission lines.' Mr. Speaker, you cannot be any more co-operative and helpful than that.

It sounds to me like a pretty good deal. But this administration are unwilling or unable to deal, Mr. Speaker. They will not make a deal with anybody. They somehow or another are paranoid about the fact that they may give something away, Mr. Speaker. So we are going to continue our efforts to get these great developments underway. We are going to continue our efforts to get the administration and the Government of Canada back to t.he bargaining table on the offshore.

We are going to continue.And they can get over there and they can try to belittle us all they want, they can attack our credibility, they can attack us personally,as we saw happen this morning by the ultimate in nastiness in this House and in this Province, the ultimate in nastiness - MR. SIMMS: That is not pertinent. MR. NEARY: Well, I have to defend myself and when I want to defend myself, I will do it. But, Mr. Speaker, we saw about the lowest personal attack in this House this morning that we have ever seen.

And they get up, you know, and the part-time CBC radio reporters will go out and say, 'Oh, Neary obstructed again today, Neary tried to do this again today. The Leader of the Opposition was put in his place again today.' And I say toall of that that, so what? As long as we are doing our job, Mr. Speaker, that is all that counts. 3l+ 2 0

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1577 so 2 MR . NEARY : They can manipulate no w the little part -ti me reporters all they '"ant and they can look up withcalves' eyes and goo -goo at them, Mr . Speaker . I have been arguing , by the way, that the press gallery should be up here in the centre of the House . MR . RIDEOUT : MR . NEARY : They did not want to go down there . Mr . Speaker, they told me, everyone of tha~, that they would love to be able to move up there because - MR . RIDEOUT: tvho are the part-time reporters? I thought they "'ere all fu ll-time . MR .

NEARY : No , there are a coup le of part -time rs around here for CBC radio . HR. RIDEOUT: CBC radio? MR . NEARY: Oh , yes . That is right . Mr . Speaker, the CBC , they think so much about this House that they will not give us - MR . RIDEOUT: Radio or television? MR . NEARY : - radio I am talking about . CBC TV has full -time re porters here but CBC radio 3lt 21

April 29, 1983 Tape 1578 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: will not give us .a full-time reporter. That is how much they think about the House. MR. RIDEOUT: The young lady who does the Morning Show , she is full-time. MR. NEARY: Is that right? MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, she does not work at anything else. Budgell, she is full-time, is she not? She is with radio. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we are going to continue our efforts and they can try to belittle our efforts all they want. We appreciate the efforts that have been put forward by the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), Mr.

Speaker, in this regard, in trying to get the parties back to the bargaining table. His stance on energy issues vividly contrast with the stubborn attitude of the Minister responsible for Energy in this Province (Mr. Marshall) and the Premier. The member for Mount Scio, Mr. Speaker, his concerns upon the NTA dispute and upon the delivery by the Province of education for our children,deserves complete support of members of this House. Mr. Speaker, it is a pity that the hon. gentleman's own party ignores his good sense. This,to me,is very sad indeed, Mr. Speaker.

I am amazed that so many members on the opposite side can be lulled into complacency by the hon. the Premier who gives them almost daily assurances that everything .will be alright by the time the next election is called. I am surprised that that attitude, Mr. Speaker, has created so much arrogance and political indifference on the part of members who support the administration. Mr. Speaker, I hope that the member for Mount Scio will continue his good sense, that he will carry his good sense to a logical conclusion. But I hope that the hon. gentleman will not find himself 31-t2 2

April 29, 1983 Tape 1578 EC - 2 MR. NEARY : in the position that the late Winston Churchill described one time . To quote Mr. Churchill , ~tr . Speaker , when he was describing an hon . gentleman who was in a similar situation , he said that he hoped that the bon . gentleman was not crying ineffectively in a wilderness . He said, 'To do that is bad politics and self -defeating .' Crying ineffectively in a wilderness is bad poHtics and is self -defeating . Now, Mr . Speaker , we know that the hon . the member for Mount Scio 's (Mr . Barry) ambitions ride far higher than that . We welcome his support , Mr .

Speaker , whether the hon . gentleman intends it or not to be support for our point of view . . ~ 3423

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1579 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: For the Opposition it certainly is support for our viewpoint. We welcome his support whether it is intended or not and we wish him well, Mr. Speaker, in his efforts to persuade his colleagues on the opposite side to change their course. Mr.

Speaker, yesterday, before I ran out of time, I was dealing with a report that was submitted to the Public Utilities Board by a group of independent Chartered Accountants ~ho were asked by the Public Utilities Board-because of the current application by Newfoundland Hydro before the Board for an increase in electricity rates in this Province, the Public Utilities Board in their wisdom decided to ask an independent firm of Chartered Accountants to do a study on four projects.

The people who are sitting in the galleries should listen to this 1 because I have no doubt that they often wonder to themselves why we have such high electricity rates in this Province. Why is it that every time the Newfoundland Light and Power Company and the Newfoundland Hydro, which is owned by the Government, why is it that every time they appear before the Public Utilities Board, they just rubber stamp their application?-it is sent up to the Cabinet room here on the eighth floor of Confederation Building and the Premier and his colleagues just rubber stamp it?

People have been asking that question for a long time. For a good many years they have been asking why are the applications for increases rubber stamped? Why did the House, why did the Tory Government not pay 3424

April 29 , 1983 Tape No . 1579 JV - 2 t-tR . NEARY : any attention to the biggest petition that was ever presented , ever tabled in this House objecting to incre ases in electricity rates , from people all over the Province ? Why , Mr . Speake r, why did the Tory administration not pay any attentio n to the people 's wishes and the prayer of that petition ob jecting to increases in electricity rates? Well , now, Mr . Speaker, the cat was let out of the bag do~~ at a hearing of the Public Utilitie s Board the other day when this report was tabled . I am going to go back over it again .

Yesterday I starte d to review some of the items in there and I want the people in the galleries , householders , people who are concerned about the ever increasing electricity rates in this Province - MR . MARSHALL : I hope you will read them the response as well . MR . NEARY : I have the response and cousin Vic can try all he wants to weasel his way out of it with bad weather and - MR . MARSHALL : When reason does not work (inaudible) . MR . NEARY : No , there was no justifiable reason, Ihave read his response . The hon . gentleman should read it . 3425

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1580 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if that is the only response that we have,then I would say God help the consumers of electricity in this Province. It would have cost $350,000 to do an on-the-ground survey of the road at Cat Ar~, $350,000. They did not do it and do hon. members know, are they aware of the mistake, the colossal blunder that was made in estimating the cost of that road? Well,I have it here in front of me. I will come to it shortly.

Here, just listen to it, item number 4, page 21 of the report, "The permanent access road to Cat Arm was budgeted based upon aerial photographs and topographical maps, the actual cost to July 1982 was $27 million, compared to the tendered price of $11 million." In other words, Mr. Speaker, the tendered price was $11 million, tendered by Lundrigans, and lo and behold, shortly after Newfoundland Hydro discovered they made a inistake of $16 million.

They made a mistake of $16 million and all they had to do was spend $350,000 to do the on-ground investigation for that road, and they would have saved the taxpayers of this Province millions piled upon millions of dollars. And then the people wonder why their electricity rates are going up. There is one of the reasons, an $16 million mistake. Now, Mr. Speaker, did heads roll down at Newfoundland Hdyro because of that? No, they did not. Cousin Vic tried to justify the matter before the Public Utilities Board a couple of days ago. I have .his statement, very, very weak, very weak indeed.

There is no excuse for this. He was trying to defend the indefensible. But let me read a couple of more items from this report, done by a group of independentChartered Accountants for the Public Utilities Board-and I hope the Public Utilities Board will not grant an increase throu gh this current application before the Board. I hope they will turn it down. I know the 3426

April 29, 1983 Tape No . 1580 Nt-1 - 2 MR . NEARY: administration, the Premier and his Cabinet, do not have the courage to turn it down . But let us get a couple of more items on the table here . "Item number 2, There was a cost ·Overrun on poles as a result of design faults, survey inaccuracies, inferior quality of poles, and inadequate construction practices ." Is that not somethino? MR. HISCOCK : That is not weather . MR . NEARY: What does that have to do with the weather , Mr . Speaker? It has to do with common sense and good judgement and good management . That is what it has to do with .

Let me read it again just in case hon . gentlem en did not get it the first time . "There was a cost overrun on poles as a result of design faults, survey inaccuracies, inferior quality of poles , and inadequate construction practices ." Now,who is responsible for that, l.fr . Speaker? '!'hey are down there making their $75 ,000 and $80,00 0 salaries every year. 3427

April 29, 1983 Tape No. 1581 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: The highest paid people in this Province are the officials of Newfoundland Hydro. I thought we hired the best. Not according to this, Mr. Spe~ker. Incompetence and mismanagement~ Taxpayer money, consumers of electricity paying for these blunders. If there was only two or three or four, but let u~ get another one, Mr.

Speaker, just in case han. members and the people listening think that I am exaggerating;r am quoting directly from a report that was submitted by Noseworthy, Keating, Howard and Kung, Chartered Accountants for the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities that was submitted on April 19 of this year, April 19, 1983. Now, remember this firm of Chartered Accountants were only asked to comment on four items. Now, let us see what it says here, item number three,'There was a cost overrun on conductors as a result of the budget being prepared based on outdated quotations. ' AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Corne again?

Corne again, you say! Well, I will. 'There was a cost overrun on conductors as a result of the budget being prepared based on outdated quotations.' What about these experts that the Premier tells us about down at hydro? What about them? Why did they not have their quotations up to date, Mr. Speaker? If we are paying for the best we should have the best. We should not have people who do sloppy work, who mismanage the affairs of Newfoundland Hydro, who are incompetent and inept,because it is the consumers of electricity who have to pay for these blunders. Let us have .a look at another item, Mr. Speaker . MR.

HISCOCK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : A point of order, the hon. the member for Eagle River. 3428

April 29 , 1983 Tape No. 1581 HJ - 2 MR . HISCOCK : As a courtesy to the Leader of the Opposition (~tt . Neary) .would the people in the Government Common Room and in the corridors listen instead of talking and interrupti ng hi s s peec h? Could we have a quorum in this House 1 all forty -four members , instead of people taking such a lackadaisical attitude to wards it? Could we have a quorum ? MR . BAIRD : How come there wereonly three Liberals in the House all week ? MR . NEARY : It is the governm en t's duty to keep a quorum in the Bouse. HR . BAIRD : Whereare all your Li bera l buddies? MR. SPF.AKER (McNicholas) : ]:>. quorum call. 3428

u April 29,1983 Tape No. 1582 ah-1 MR. SPEAKER (Dr.McNicholas): Order, please! A quorum is now present. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my colleague rightly called a quorum because it is up to the government to maintain a quorum in this House and not the Opposition. MR. SIMMS: maintain a quorum. MR.NEARY: The Opposition could not That is right. Mr. Speaker, listen to tnis now. Here is another item that contributes to the high cost of electricity in this Province, another item. I did not make this up. I am not the one who is saying this. This is not Liberals versus Tories.

This is a firm of independent Chartered Accountants doing a report for the Public Utilities Board. A good firm they are. They are all Chartered Accountants. So you cannot say it is partisan politics, it is Tory versus Liberal or NDP,or the Leader of the opposition criticizing the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) or vice versa. It has nothing to do with that, it has to do with a report. Now let us see what the other item is in the report.

It says,"the construction camp services contract and the 69 KV transmission line at Cat Arm cost significantly more than budgeted for because of insufficient and inaccurate information when tendering commenced." Mr. Speaker, did they know what they were doing at all? Just listen, let me go through that again.

I am not a construction man but certainly I would have thought that one of the first things that the government would have aone before they started the Cat Arm project would be to do a little planning, to know there they are going to put the road, to know where they are going to put the dams, to know where they are going to put the power house, to know where they are going to put the bunk houses, to know where they are going to have their fuel storage tanks, 31+ J 0

April 29 ,1983 Tape No . 1582 ah-2 MR . NEARY : etc .,atc . Mr . Speaker , is that not all basic? It is all basic is it not? Even the member for Grand Bank (r.fr . Matthews) knows that . In his simplicity he knows that if you are going to carry out a major project like the Cat Arm development that you have to plan it all . Well, let us see again . I will run through that again now, see how much planning, how much thought - DR . COLLINS : Hydro did not plan it? .1H .NEARY : That is what the firm of chartered acco untants- 34J1

April 29, 1983 DR. COLLINS: without planning it? MR. NEARY: Tape 1583 EC - 1 Hydro carried out something Well, that is right. That is what they did in the case of Cat Arm. DR. COLLINS: that. You are not sensible in saying MR. NEARY: Well, now, let me run through it again just for the benefit of the hon. gentleman. MR. BAIRD: Repetition, Mr. Speaker, repetition! MR.

NEARY: •The construction camp services contract and the 69KV transmission line at Cat Arm cost significantly more than budgeted because of insufficient and inaccurate information when tendering commenced~ In other words, they did not have the information, Mr. Speaker. When they called tenders for that 69KV transmission line ~ and the camp services, they did not have enough information when they went to tender. Now, that is only a very simple part of that major development there at Cat Arm. Now, Mr. Speaker, how much did these mistakes, these blunders, cost the consumers of electricity in this Province?

We may never know. But what is more serious, Mr. Speaker, than what is in this report are the things that are not in this report,that we have been hearing about. We know there are claims against the government on the Upper Salmon and on the Cat Arm , projects, claims that are not justified, contractors back looking for their thirty pieces of silver from the administration, $8 million and $10 million more than the contract was worth. They tendered on these contracts, they were awarded the contracts and now they are back looking for extra s - buddies of the administration, pals, moneybags, the fund raise