Manitoba Hansard — 22 June 2000 (Sitting 50B, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-50b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. SOB - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, June 22, 2000 I SN 42·549

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

3049 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 22, 2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 39-The Insurance Amendment Act Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Af fairs (Mr. Robinson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 39, The Insurance Amendment Act; Loi modifia nt la

Loi sur les assurances, and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. Motion presented. Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, just a short state ment, if I might. This bill makes a number of important amendments to The Insurance Act. It will enhance consumer protection overall by requiring all insurance agents, for example, to have prof essional liability insurance. There are many more, certainly, positives with regard to this bill, and they will be forth coming in the near future . Motion agreed to.

Bill 4� The Business Names Registration Amendment, Corporations Amendment and Partnership Amendment Act Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Ms. McGiff ord), that leave be given to introduce Bill 40, The Business Names Registration Amendment, Corporations Amend ment and Partnership Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'enregistrement des noms commerciaux, la

Loi sur les corporations et la

Loi sur les societes en nom collectif), and that the same be now received and read for a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, The Business Names Registration Amendment, Corporations Amendment and Partnership Amendment Act will enable publication of business registra tions on the Internet. Today those notices are published in the Manitoba Gazette. The Bill makes this information more readily available to a wider cross-section of Manitobans who do not today subscribe to the Manitoba Gazette. Motion agreed to. * (13:35) Bill 42-The Public Schools Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Ms. McGifford), that leave be

3050 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 given to introduce Bill 42, The Public Schools Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques et modifications correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a fir st time. Motion presented. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to introduce legislative amendments to The Public Schools Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act today. First and foremost, these proposed amend ments will give The Public Schools Act a clear statement of principles for our public schools system. The Government of Manitoba also wishes to put into place a fair and balanced approach to bargaining that puts the interests of children first.

These amendments make adjust ments to the rules for the collective bargaining process in the public school system which will move us forward into a more respectfu l environment in Manitoba. These changes are in keeping with our government's strong commit ment to the public education system in the province of Manitoba. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us today, from Victoria-Albert School, 52 Grade 4 students under the direction of Mrs. Karen Walpole.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). Also in the galler y we have, from Arthur Day Middle School, 20 Grades 6 - 8 students under the direction of Ms. Beverly White. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). Also seated in the gallery we have, from Ste. Rose School, 30 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Judy Wolfe. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. House Business Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on House business, I was wondering if the Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) could inform me when the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Health. which is next up in the Chamber when we are finished Agric ulture either today or Monday, might be ready for us. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): We are making arrangements, Mr. Speaker, to have those tabled after Oral Questions. Mr. Speaker: Arrangements will be made for tabling of the Supplementary Estimates for Health after Question Period.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Post-Secondary Education Funding Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of tbe Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, Mike McAdam, the vice-president of administration for the Universit y of Manitoba is quoted in today's paper in ref erence to the NDP's post secondary budget as saying, and I quote: It is certainly a severe budget. It is one of the worst. As a direct result of the NDP's underf unding, every department and faculty has been ordered to cut its budget by 3 percent. This government, Mr.

Speaker, is forcing the university to cut staff, programs and funding for equipment, thereby decreasing the students' quality of education right here in the province of Manitoba. I would like to ask the Minister of Education how he expects the University of

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 305 1 Manitoba to attract and retain students and staff when his government is grossly underfunding our universities. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): In the same newspaper I was interested to read today that the budget decisions being made at the Un iversity of Manitoba are indeed severe. There is no doubt about that. I also noted in the paper about nurses in Tr eherne and the hospital having to shut down, both issues, I may add, Mr.

Speaker, as a direct result of underfunding- An Honourable Member: By the previous government. * (13:40) Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Beauchesne's 417: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Mr. Speaker, if the Honourable Minister of Education does not have an answer. we would prefer he remain seated and allow somebody else on that side of the House who knew the answers to answer. Mr. Speaker: Order, the Honourable Govern ment House Leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. The answer was certainly brief , as I heard it, and was to the point, and the matter was emanating fr om statements made in the news papers today. In fact it is my understanding that it dealt with the matter raised which is why there are some funding dif ficulties in this province, and it is because of members opposite and not members on this side. If the members feel pro voked, it is because they should feel provoked. They should be thin-skinned on this. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised, would like to take this opportunity to remind all ministers that according to Beauchesne's Citation 417: Answers to questions should deal with the matter raised. * * * Mr. Caldwell: The Member, in asking a question, made ref erence to newspaper articles in the Free Press. Quoting fr om an

article today fr om rural Manitoba: "The Opposition can say what they want. But the problem is at their feet . II The issues that we are dealing with in terms of post-secondary education, in terms of health care in Tr eherne, all are a consequence of 10 years of underfu nding and misguided policies by the members opposite. I will read into the record, if this question pursues, the rates of cuts that occurred at the Uni versity of Manitoba over the past decade, and we will deal with that at the next question. Mrs.

Mitchelson: That kind of an answer shows utter disrespect for the students that are entering post-secondary education in our province and utter disrespect for our universities and our post secondary institutions. Students will see through the arrogance and the attitude of the Minister of Education. It is interesting to note the New Democratic Party go back to what happened in the past. but they neglect to mention in fact that they supported our last budget for education.

So it is interesting to see how they deal with the issue when the university in fact says that it is their budget, this NDP budget, that has created the issue for the universities. The Government seems to be saying that the universities are not telling the truth when they indicate that this NDP Government has not funded post-secondary education or our univer sities in a manner that is going to aff ord our students the quality of education that they deserve. If that is the attitude of this government, I think Manitobans will see through that.

I would like to ask the Minister of Education how he can explain to the House the inherent contradiction between the statement that the Premier (Mr. Doer) made to Charles Adler that universities would not suff er fr om the 10 %

3052 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 tuition fee cut, and the fact that universities are now cutting staff and programs that will impact in a very negative way on the education that our students are receiving? Mr. Caldwell: Manitobans know that the largest increase to post-secondary education funding in the last decade occurred with this year's budget. Manitobans also know, and particularly students in Manitoba know that there has never been a better time in the last two decades for young Manitobans to attend post-secondary institutions, colleges and universities in the province of Manitoba.

The increases in the bursary program from the Province of Manitoba, the re-establish ment of a bursary program, Mr. Speaker, the tuition reductron that will take place this fal l combined with the Canada Millennium Scholar ship makes this year the most attractive time in the last 20 years for young Manitobans to attend post-secondary institutions. * (13:45) Mrs.

Mitchelson: But interesting, it is won derful to have the opportunity to go to school, but if you are not getting the quality of education that you deserve that does not speak much for even having students stay in our province to complete their post-secondary education. Once they are gone to search for better quality post secondary education in other provinces they will not be coming back to Manitoba.

Can the Minister, who talks about the open door policy and the consultation that he has on a regular basis with everyone within the education system, tell me and tell this House and tell Manitobans what programs will be cut as a result of his underf unding of the universities, and what students has he met with to indicate what impact this wiii have on the quality of education for our young people in Manitoba? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege to meet again with the presidents of the colleges and universities on Friday last. We meet regularly. I have been speaking with students this morning.

Our record of consultation is unparalleled, fr ankly, in terms of the post secondary and public school system . The universities and colleges in Manitoba off er educational excellence in all their pro grams. There are difficulties in funding post secondary institutions in the province. They are not a consequence of the largest increases at historic levels to the system that was provided this year. They are a consequence of minus .23 in 1997-98; minus 2.6 in '96-97; minus 2.9 in '94-95; minus 2.1 in '93-94. Mr. Speaker, we are dealing with the legacy of ruin left by the members opposite.

Post-Secondary Education Funding Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, this minister failed to mention to post-secondary students that their I 0% tuition-rebate program would result in fewer program choices, fewer staff, and fewer technological resourc es. Lower tuition only benefits students if the quality of education remains constant or is enhanced. This minister has done neither. Could I ask you, Mr. Speaker, what is the Minister's response to the UMSU president's charge that. and I quote: The NDP has not kept its promise to students. The quality of education will sutTer. Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Well, Mr. Speaker, as a former student leader myself , I appreciate the very hard work that student leaders do on behalf of their institutions. I certainly appreciate the views of the UMSU president when he has discussions with me. The fact remains, however, that the increase to the post-secondary system this year was the largest increase in over a decade at historic levels, and the management of how those funds are used are best made at the local institutional level, and that is what is occurring. Mrs. Smith: Mr.

Speaker, does this mmtster really believe that wiping out the Un iversity of Manitoba's emergency reserve fund will actually benefit students in the years ahead? Mr. Caldwell: No.

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 3053 Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, has this minister prepared any projections as to the impact the $5- million cut to the Uni versity of Manitoba will have on future student enrolment, and can he answer in a complete sentence? Mr. Caldwell: Well, Mr. Speaker, apparently the Member was not paying attention to my earlier answers. We provided this year funding at historic levels, increased funding at historic levels to the post-secondary system.

This government remains committed to restoring educational excellence after the brutal attacks that took place on post-secondary education in the province over the past decade. I read into the record previously, in 1997-98, minus 2.3; '96-97, minus 2.6; 1995-96, minus 0.3; 1994-95, minus 2.9; 1993-94, minus 2. 1. Mr. Speaker, the members opposite destroyed in great measure the infrastructure of our post secondary system, and we are committed on this side of the House to restori ng the infrastructure that post-secondary education needs in this province. Post-Secondary 'Education Funding Mr.

Darren Praznik (Lac do Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, this minister has totally forgotten that during the 1990s this province went through a recession and was in the process of cleaning up a large deficit and debt left on the children of this province by his party and his type. This issue is about the credibility of the Premier (Mr. Doer) of Manitoba.

I want to ask the Minister, given that he and the Premier have known all the facts he puts on the record, given that the Premier of this province promised, promised university students that there would be no effect on the quality of education, I want to ask the Minister today what he intends to do next year when the problem will get even worse. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, initially the problem will not get any worse, because the members opposite are no longer the Government of Manitoba.

Unlike the members opposite, we do not think that education is something that we can cut willy-nilly. We believe education is an invest ment in the future of this province, an invest ment in the future of economic development in this province, an investment in the future of healthy communities in this province, an investment in the future of Manitoba, and we will invest accordingly. * (13:50) Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Minister again: Given that, as a result of their policy issue, given the result of their tying the hands of the university where we are now seeing reductions in the quality of that education, and those are the words of the university, I want to ask him what his plans are for next year when the university predicts this will get even worse unless they have additional money because of that party's promise. Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, as has been the practice of the Department of Education .and Trai ning with the new government of Manitoba, we will continue to consult and meet with our partners at the post-secondary level. We will continue to work with them to repair the shameful legacy left to us by the members opposite. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Minister again, because the university needs an answer to this question, students need an answer to this question, given that his Premier has talked ad nauseam in this House about the need for multiyear budgeting, for the need to have consistency for institutions that depend on government funding, I ask him again to give the university, give students in this province an idea as to what they can expect next year, massive tuition fee increases when his one-time political plum comes off or the kinds of dollars they need to support the university, given that this government is taking money away fr om them?

Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, the Member opposite speaks of consistency, and certainly the members opposite were consistent in their funding to post-secondary education: 1997-98, minus 2.3 percent; 1996-97, minus 2.6 percent; 1994-95, minus 2.9 percent; 1993-94, minus 2.1

3054 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 percent. The members opposite certainly were consistent in their funding to post-secondary institutions in the province of Manitoba. This year, historic increases to post secondary education in the province of Mani toba. We applied a strategy that recognizes investment needs be placed in post-secondary institutions, and that is what post-secondary institutions can expect in the future, investment in the future of our post-secondary institutions. Post-Secondary Education Funding Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker. this minister has to answer to students of Manitoba. We have demonstrations in the streets, we have people meeting today that are very concerned about the lack of programming for university students. We have students who are going to leave the province because there are not enough programs, not enough courses for them to achieve their academic success. This minister, instead of rhetori c, has to have an answer. What is he going to say to the students at the Univ ersity of Manitoba about how he is going to put in supports so those programs can be put in place instead of political paybacks? Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education aad Training): Well, certainly, Mr. Speaker, the Government is giving a political payback to the post-secondary institutions in the province of Manitoba. We believe it is good politics to invest in our post-secondary institutions, and that is what we will continue to do. In terms of dialoguing with students, as I mentioned in a remark earlier, perhaps it was missed by the Member, we meet with students, academics and administrators regularly. I had some discussions this morning with students. I will continue to have discussions with students.

They offer insights, quite frankly, that the members opposite could have learned from during their I 0-year tenure when they went on a massive attack of the post-secondary system. So we will continue to fund and invest in post-secondary institutions and post-secondary education in the province of Manitoba. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister tell this House when he is going to meet with the students that are walking up and down the highways with placards fearing for the future in the university? When is he going to meet with these students and give them some concrete answers, instead of rhetoric? Mr.

Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I could not even approach the rhetoric expressed by the Member opposite in terms of the placards or students walking up and down the highways. It is kind of an odd exclamation. An Honourable Member: I have not seen any. Mr. Caldwell: No, I have not seen any either. Mr. Speaker, certainly, as I have stated in previous answers. this government believes in investment in the public education and the post secondary system in the province of Manitoba. We believe that investment is key to the economic future of this province.

We believe that investment is key to a healthy province and a development of a Manitoba that all citizens can be proud of, and we will continue to invest in the post-secondary public school system in the province of Manitoba. unlike the members opposite when they were in government. ... (13:55) Health Care System Bed Availability Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): The Mimster of Health promised to end hallway medicine-it was a black and white promise-six months after he took office.

Aft er the election, he said, "There will not be a single patient in the hallways ." Can the Minister confirm that since the April 5 deadline to end hallway medicine that he has broken his election promise, when again last week there were more patients in the hallways than this same time last year? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can indicate, as I indicated at the April 6 press conference, that following just six months in office we had reduced people in the hallways in the month of December, 60

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3055 percent; January, 71 percent; February, 75 per cent and March, 83 percent. Mr. Speaker, we undertook a number of measures. We are continuing to take those measures to deal with the hallway situation. Last week, on average, there was one more person in the hallway than the same time last year, one more person. As I indicated, we are continuing, and there will be additional initiatives to deal with the hallway situation. I am pleased to note that on today's date last year there were four times as many people in the hallways as there are today.

Nursing Shortage Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I would like to ask the Minister what he has to say to Manitobans who still are in the hallways, despite the fact he promised there would be a 10 0% decrease in hallway medicine. What is he going to say to those people who are waiting for care, especially now that, under his watch, the nursing shortage in this province has shot up by 40 percent to 1100 vacancies, a situa tion that the president of the nurses' union describes as "Really awful." Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, we will say to Manitobans that, unlike the previous government, we will not lay off a thousand nurses. We will put in place programs like the diploma program that members opposite cancelled and which is the reason we do not have nurses here today in the province of Manitoba. I will say to people in the province of Manitoba we will not close 1400 acute care beds, as members opposite did. We will open additional beds.

I will say to the people of Manitoba that we will put in place initiatives and measures to deal with the hallway situa tion and not deny that it exists, as members opposite did year after year. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask this Minister of Health why he continues to put misinfor mation about the nursing shortage under· our watch on the record when he knows for a fact that, of the thousand nurses he keeps talking about being laid off, 830 of those were shortly re-employed after they were laid off, and the reason they were laid off was because of union clauses which prevented mobility in the contracts.

And, Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a document fr om his department that sup ports what I am saying and supports the fact that he continues to misrepresent the fact about a thousand nurses being laid off because 850 of those, shortly after being laid off, were re employed and 274 of them chose to retire . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, order. The Honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I think that supplementary question might have been a record .

She was going on and on and on. Of course there cannot be any

preamble, midamble or postamble. There was rambling here, quite frankly. I wonder if you could ask her simply to put a question, no

preamble. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Oppositioa ll8use Leader): On the same point of order, if the Minister was answering without attempting to mislead the people of Manitoba by putting false information on the record, we would not have to put the information on within our questions, Mr. Speaker, and it was false what the Minister was saying. There has not been a thousand laid off. They were rehired within a month or two. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all members that Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. *** Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Member for Charleswood to please put her question. * (14:00) Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister why he continues to put forward misinformation about the facts of the nursing

3056 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 shortage when in fact-and I just tabled the documents from his own department that support what I am saying. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I note the Member has supplied a briefing note fr om the previous minister's Health Department, an explanation that never was uttered in this House the whole time that they were in government. They never acknowledged there was a nursing shortage. They would not even talk about nurses. And now they present a briefing note that is a year old trying to justify.

Perhaps they should present the briefing note that talked about the over expenditure in health. Perhaps they should talk about the briefing note talking about the beds closing, 1400 beds. Perhaps they should present the briefing note that talks about the fact that they did not tell us the truth with respect to nursing shortages. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, I wish members opposite, in the light of information, would have supported the five-point nursing plan because they have two views. When we announced it, the Member opposite said, oh, we did all that, and now they are saying, oh, we do not support that.

But the fact is we have announced the first comprehensive nursing plan in the last decade in this province. Post-Secondary Education Capital Funding Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): This morning I visited the architecture library at the Univ ersity of Manitoba, a library with a collection which is renowned across Canada as the best collection of books and ref erence material in this area in the country. Sadly, though, due to the neglect by this government and the previous government, this building is leaking like a sieve. Books, computers and other items have to be covered by plastic for pro tection.

Carpets and floors are wet. There are six-inch gaps between the walls and the floor. My question- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Gerrard: I ask the Minister why he has failed so pitifully in his duties as Minister of Education. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the Member for Lakeside said-I do not know if it was picked up but "all that happened in the last eight months." I appreciate that comment on his behalf. With regard to the Member's final question, Mr.

Speaker, of course, as I mentioned earlier, the Government is very concerned about the huge deficit that exists in the post-secondary system resulting from the past I 0 years in underfunding. We are committed, as I indicated earlier, to continuing to invest in post-secondary and public school systems. This year we invested at historic levels, Mr. Speaker, as well as having a substantial tuition reduction.

The Member fails to point out, as he is condemning the Conservative members oppo site and the New Democrats on this side of the House, that the Liberal transf er payment cuts also contributed markedly to this situation. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, my supple mentary to the Minister respo nsible for decaying buildings and leaking libraries- Mr. Speaker: Order. All members in this Chamber will be addressed by their constituency and all ministers will be addressed by their titles. I would ask the Honourable Member to please withdraw that comment. Mr. Gerrard: I withdraw the comment.

My supplementary to the Minister- Mr. Speaker: Order. I thank the Honourable Member for River Heights for that. Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Education: Will the Minister not admit that his evasive rhetoric is inexcusable given the deplorable state of the infrastructure of our universities? Mr. Caldwell: I do not know what is evasive or rhetorical about the fact that the investment made by the provincial government in post secondary education this year was larger than it

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3057 has been in a decade, in fact reaching historic proportions and that we are committed to ongoing investment in our post-secondary and public school system, moving forward in years to come at levels that are agreed at between our partnerships with the university presidents, the students of universities and the college adminis tration, so we will be investing in our post secondary education system. We did this year, and we will continue to do it throughout the course of our mandate. Mr.

Gerrard: My second supplementary to the Minister of Education: Since he has had nine months and done nothing, when will the Minister of Education act to stop the waterf alls inside the buildings of our universities? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, indeed we have been working to stop the waterf alls and the leaking roof s and the broken windows and the huge infrastructure deficits that are in the system fr om the last 10 years of neglect and decay.

We began that task on September 21 when the people of Manitoba elected this government in the province, and we will continue to invest in our post-secondary and public schools system throughout the course of our mandate. Education System Student Transportation Costs Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Speaker, last year the Department of Education and Training provided additional transportation support to the St. Vital School Division for the 1999-2000 school year to ensure students atten ding Highbury School could be bused to school during a very heavy construction season in the area.

Unf ortunately, parents have significant saf ety concerns once again this year because of, again, an increase in the construction. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Education is: Has the Minister communicated his decision to the concerned parents, in light of the fact that classes end next week? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Well, Mr.

Speaker, the partner ship that exists in terms of bus transportation between the Province of Manitoba and indi- vidual school divisions of course is something that we took particular note of in the public schools funding announcement this past year. We did place some categorical funding, in creased categorical funding, I might add, to this transportation issue. I certainly monitor the issue of transportation in Winnipeg as well as the rural areas, where the members know it is a significant issue, and we will continue to do so in the future. Mrs. Dacquay: I just trust I am not interpreting that as a no.

Will the Minister meet with con cerned parents who have off ered to personally walk him through the area and share the dangers with him first-hand before he dismisses their request for additional support? Mr. Caldwell: Well, I did not detect any dismis sal of anything. Certainly I am always happy to meet with parents, teachers, trustees, the public, on issues of education. I find that having a consultation with stakeholders in education is a very usef ul exercise in making policy.

Certainly we have been developing policy around discus sions and consultations with parents, teachers, trustees, students and other stakeholders in the public system. So if a party wants to make a request to meet with me I am only too happy to arrange something. University of Manitoba Students' Union Debate Request Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, the University of Manitoba is taking this matter very seriously and are getting tired of the rhetoric that is being pronounced by this Minister of Education.

The president of the student union at the University of Manitoba, Steven Fletcher, this morning challenged the Minister of Education to a debate on CJOB. I wonder if the Minister of Education, if he is so sure of his facts, would take that opportunity to see, and have that debate with Mr. Fletcher on CJOB? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I meet with the president of the University of Manitoba Students' Union quite fr equently, as the Member opposite may know. I understand that the

3058 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 president is currently seeking a leadership position in the Conservative Party. I am sure this would be very advantageous to him to have this public airing of this matter in terms of his election campaign. He may be, in fact, one of the next leaders of the party over there. It would not surprise me. Of course I meet regularly, as I have indicated repeatedly in this House, with members of the public, members of the post secondary and public school system, and I am always too happy to continue that dialogue. * (14:10 ) Mr. Laurendeau: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister, who is afraid to debate young Tories, this minister who is afraid to go on CJOB. or maybe it is this minister who has been told he is not allowed to go on CJOB, will this minister enter into a real debate where he has got to put his facts forward with people on the front lines? Mr. Caldwell: Of course, Mr. Speaker, we do that every day in Question Period. I have never shied away fr om a debate. I am always happy to get in a battle of wits with anyone. I am a little bit leery of doing battle with unarmed people sometimes, but, as a point, I am always happy to have a discussion.

Health Care Workers Labour Dispute Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Radiation therapists are holding information pickets, and they along with 1900 other members of the Manitoba Association of Health Care Pro fessionals could hold a strike as early as next week. Wayne Byron of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority said that the authority does not have a contingency plan if these workers go on strike. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) tell Manitobans, who are worried about appointments and treatments that may be cancelled, what contingency plan her govern ment has in place? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, obviously in any situation of this kind there are contingency plans in place, and I can assure the Member and members of this House that there are contingency plans that are in place. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister willing to table those, and will he also confirm if part of that contingency plan will include sending patients out of the province for treatment? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I know the Member is new to operations in this House and in this Legislature .

The Member must under stand and recognize that in fact we are involved in negotiations as we speak, and it has been a common practice in this Chamber in matters of this kind not to table these kinds of information for the public during the course of negotiations. So I hope the Member can respect and understand what has been clearly a pattern in this Legislature for some time. With regard to that, I can assure you that all efforts are being made to deal with the situation and the contingencies that can be put in place. Mr. Schuler: Mr.

Speaker. can the Minister of Labour confirm if members of the Manitoba Association of Health Care Prof essionals who choose to strike will face legal consequences for their actions? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, there are recog nized patterns in place, and we are involved in negotiations. Again, I know the Member is inexperienced in this regard, and I think that there has been a pretty well time-honoured tradition in this Chamber with respect to negotiations that the Minister does not engage in negotiations in the Chamber. It has been something that has been respected by members for some time.

I take fr om the Member's question that perhaps the fact that he is newly el ected to this Chamber could have resulted in that kind of question, but I think suf fice to say that we are in negotiations in this regard . Irwood Subdivision Heritage Site Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, about a week to I 0 days ago I raised in this

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3059 House with the Minister of Culture, the issue of the Birch River subdivision. I wonder if she would update us as to any action she may have taken. Hon. Diane McGiff ord (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I believe that the subdivision in question has been in touch with my department. I believe that the Member is ref erring, indirectly at least, to The Heritage Resources Act, by which municipalities have desi gnated several portions of rail line as heritage properties. At this point, there is no action for my department to take .

We have received this as information. Mr. Cummings: Well, Mr. Speaker, I stand to be correct ed, but as I recall, the Minister said she would take this matter under consideration and left the impression that she was going to take some action. Is this indeed an opportunity to designate property such as this under a Culture and Heritage designation? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, my information is that a notification has been given of a meeting and CN has that information, and that CN can come and present their case.

I believe CN is taking the position that these particular designa tions, in fact should not be designations. As I say, there really is not a decision for my department to make at this point. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the people of this area are looking for some direction and some help to assist them, and particularly to have some support in whether or not this is an appropriate way for them to enter into a dialogue regard ing the designation of this tract.

I would have hoped that this minister would now give us a commitment that she will become involved and assist with the designation of this, or is she saying that she does not support what they are doing? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, The Heritage Resources Act allows municipalities to designate properties as heritage properties. We have the Act. The Act gives municipalities the right to designate. That is the situation. Tha t is what has happened. That is what is prevailing. * (14:20) Youth News Network Contract Revisions Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, in the most recent edition of The Manitoba Teacher, the Minister of Education confirmed that YNN is, and I quote: Out for good. The Minister has, however, been made aware of Athena's recent change to its contract, which removes the commercial aspect of YNN and replaces it with public service announcements, including one sponsored by this very minister. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Education advise the House if he or his department is now in receipt of the revised YNN contract? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I have not seen a revised contract.

I am not sure what is in the Department, but certainly there has not been -a revised contract placed forth to me. Our decision as a government stands on YNN. I think I have said that innumerable times in this House, and I can only lament the fact that members oppo site are more interested in corporations than classrooms. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Question has expired. Speaker's Rulings Mr. Speaker: I have two rulings for the House. On June 5, 2000, the Honourable Official Opposition House Leader (Mr. Laurendeau) rose on an alleged matter of privilege alleging that the audio portion of the

section of the Com mittee of Supply meeting in the Chamber had been interrupted on the cable channel coverage provided within the Legislative Building on June 1, 2000, in favour of a government press conference. The Honourable Official Opposition House Leader asserted that the three government

3060 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 ministers were responsible for this action and that the action superseded the authority of the Legislative Assembly with regard to the broadcasts of the proceedings. The Honourable Deputy Government House Leader (Mr. Ashton) also spoke to the matter, indicating that to his knowledge the ministers refere nced had not directed that any such action take place. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) and the Honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) also offered advice to the Chair on this matter.

I took the matter under advisement in order to peruse the procedural authorities. I thank honourable members for their contributions to the matter raised. There are two conditions that must be satisfied in order for the matter raised to be considered a prima facie case of privilege: first, was the matter raised at the earliest opportunity: and second, is there sufficient evidence that the privileges of the House have been breached towards putting the matter to the House. Regarding the issue of timeliness, the Honourable Official Opposition House Leader (Mr.

Laurendeau) did raise the matter on the first sitting day after the matter rose, and theref ore did raise the matter in the House at the earliest opportunity. Concerning the second condition of whether there exists sufficient evidence that the privileges of the House have been breached, I must advise the House of the following items. Although the Honourable Official Opposition House Leader (Mr.

Laurendeau) indicated that control of the broadcasting systems according to Marleau and Montpetit in House of Commons Procedures and Practices remains with the House and is under the supervision of the Speaker, acting on behalf of all members, it must be noted that Manitoba practice is at variance with the practice followed by the House of Com mons. The House of Commons has a broad casting

section that is run for the House by House employees, while in Manitoba the broad casting of House proceedings is conducted for the Legislative Assembly by staff from Infor mation Services of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Tourism, with some funding provided by the Legislative Assembly. To my knowledge, the Assembly has not adopted any type of guidelines or issued any directives regard ing the broadcasting of the video and audio portions of the House or committee proceedings.

In a ruling given by Madam Speaker Phillips on June 20, 1986, the privileges of Parliament, as enumerated in Maingot's Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, were defined as the following: individual privileges are fre edom of speech, freedom from arrest and civil process, exemption fr om jury service and the privilege relating to members summoned as witnesses.

The corporate or collective privileges of Parliament were defined as the power to punish for contempt-or its penal jurisdiction-the right to regulate its own constitution, the right to regulate its own internal aff airs free fr om interference, the right to discipline its own members, the right to institute inquiries and call for witnesses (persons, papers and records) and the right to settle its own code of procedure.

Erskine May defines privilege as "the sum of the peculiar rights enjoyed by each House collectively as a constituent part of the High Court of Parliament, and by members of each House individually, without which they could not discharge their functions." Maingot on page 224 of Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, 2nd edition, states that "parliamentary privilege is concerned with the special rights of members not in their capacities as ministers or as party leaders, whips or parliamentary secretari es, but strictly in their capacity as members in their parliamentary work.

Theref ore, allegations of misjudgement or mismanagement or maladministration on the part of a minister in the performance of his minis terial duties does not come within the purview of parliamentary privilege." On page 80 of Maingot's Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, it is stated that: Privilege of Parliament is founded on necessity and is comprised of those rights that are absolutely necessary for the due execution of its powers.

Arguably, necessity should be a basis for any claim that an event was part of a "proceeding in Parliament" i.e., what is claimed to be part of a proceeding in Parliament and thus protected

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 306 1 should be necessarily incidental to proceeding in Parliament. Maingot further advises on page 81 that proceedings in Parliament do not include speeches in the Chamber or in committee. Additionally, on page 49, Maingot also asserts that electronic Hansard (i.e., broadcast by television or audio) is a broadcast of the debates of the House; however, debates are not pro ceedings of the House and are theref ore not covered by parliamentary privilege. In a ruling given on April 3, 1991, Mr.

Speaker Rocan refere nced an April 29, 1971, ruling given by Speaker Lamoureux of the House of Commons, which states that the nature of a member's parliamentary privilege is limited. The ruling advises that "parliamentary privilege does not go much beyond the right of fr ee speech . . . and the right of a Member to discharge his duties in the House as a Member." He noted that in many cases if a member has a cause for complaint, it ought to be taken up in the form of a grievance against the Minister or government by way of a substantive motion and not a matter of privilege. Mr.

Speaker Fox ruled on March 30, 1972, that allegations of misjudgement, mismanage ment or maladministration on the part of a minister in the perf ormance of his ministerial duties does not come within the purview of the parliamentary privilege. Madam Speaker Dacquay, in a ruling given on June 2, 1995, quoted fr om Maingot's Parl iamentary Priv ilege in Canada and stated that "while it will be seen that the Member enjoys all of the immunities necessary to perform his parliamentary work, this privilege or right ... is nevertheless subject to the practices and procedures of the House.

Thus allegations of breach of privilege by a member which amount to complaint about procedures and practices in the House are by their very nature matters of order." In a case raised in the Canadian House of Commons concerning the alleged exceeding of authority by a committee in televising a broad cast of its proceedings without authorization of the House, Speaker Fraser ruled on April 9, 1987, that although the committee had shifted the authority and the power against the rules, he did not feel as the Speaker that it was in the interests of members for him to pursue the matter.

He noted that the House of Commons Board of Internal Economy had not presented an order to the House regarding the televising of committee proceedings. Given this, Speaker Fraser ruled that the obligation lies with members of all parties to put the procedural rules in place to enable this to happen. This could be construed to be similar to the current situation in Manitoba-at present there are no rules or guidelines in place regard ing the broadcasting of audio and video proceedings of the House, and it would be appropriate for the House, not the Speaker, to put those guidelines in place.

Although the Member may have a serious complaint or grievance, I am ruling that he did not establish a prima facie case of privilege, and theref ore rule his motion out of order as a matter of privilege.

I would, however, suggest to the Member that he may wish to pursue the issue of audio broadcasting of House and committee proceedings with either the Standing Committee on the Rules of the House or the LegisJative Assembly Management Commission in order to further discuss this issue and perhaps raise the issue of establishing guidelines for the broad casting of House and committee proceedings. *** On June 5, 2000, the Honourable Deputy Government House Leader (Mr. Ashton) rose on an alleged matter of privilege asserting that the Honourable Opposition House Leader (Mr.

Laurendeau), in the raising of a matter of privilege, had made an allegation that several government ministers were responsible for the switching off of the audio portion of the Chamber

section of the Committee of Supply on June 1, 2000, which was replaced by a govern ment press conf erence. The Honourable Deputy Government House Leader disputed that the ministers indicated had been involved or had caused the action to take place and concluded his remarks by moving that the House ask the Honourable Opposition House Leader to with draw the assertion. The Honourable Official Opposition House Leader and the Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou)

3062 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 off ered advice on the alleged matter of privilege. I took the matter under advisement in order to peruse the procedural authorities. I thank all members for their advice to the Chair on this matter. There are two conditions that must be satisfied in order for the matter raised to be considered a prima facie case of privilege. First was the matter raised at the earliest opportunity, and second, is there suf ficient evidence that the privilege of the House has been breached to warrant putting the matter to the House.

With respect to the first condition, I find that the matter was raised at the earliest opportunity in that the Honourable Deputy Government House Leader did raise the matter shortly after the initial matter of privilege was raised by the Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, so the condition of timeliness has been met. • (14:30 ) Regarding the second condition. it has not been demonstrated that privileges of the House have been breached.

Beauchesne's Citation 25 advises that parliamentary privilege does not go much beyond the right of free speech in the House and the right of a member to discharge his or her duties in the House as a member. Marleau and Montpetit, on page 51 of the House of Commons Practices and Procedure s, list the rights and immunities of members individually as being: freedom of speech, free dom fr om arrest in civil actions, exempt fr om jury duty and exemptions fr om attendance as a witness.

The rights and powers of the House as a collective may be categorized as the power to discipline; the regulation of internal aff airs; the authority to maintain the attendance and service of members; the right to institute inquiries and to call witnesses; the right to administer oaths to witnesses; and the right to publish papers containing defamatory material. I have difficulty in categorizing the complaint of the Honourable Minister as fitting into one of these categories. In addition, Beauchesne's Citation 31 (

l) advises that a dispute arising between two members as to the allegations of facts does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege. This point is reinforced by rulings fr om Manitoba Speakers. Mr. Speaker Graham ruled on March 6, 1980, that a dispute between two members as to allegations of fact did not constitute a breach of privilege. This finding is also contained in similar rulings fr om Mr. Speaker Rocan on August 3, 1988, June 28, 1989, and March 14, 1990, and by a ruling given by Madam Speaker Dacquay on December I 0, 1997. I would also like to point out for the House that Mr.

Speaker Fox ruled on March 30. 1972, that allegations of misjudgment, mismanage ment. or maladministration on the part of a minister in the performance of his ministerial duties does not come within the purview of parliamentary privilege. Although the Honourable Minister may have a complaint of imputation of motives or a grievance, it has not been demonstrated that a prima facie case of privilege exists, and I must rule the motion out of order as a matter of privilege. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, even though there was no prima facie case, I would like to apologize to the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ashton), the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Lemieux) and the Minister of Northern Af fairs and Aboriginal Af fairs (Mr. Robinson). If my statements offended them or if my matter of privilege off ended them, I apologize. Mr. Speaker: I thank the Honourable Member for that. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I wonder if there is unanimous consent of the House for me to table the Supplementary Estimates for Health. Mr.

Speaker: Is there leave for the Honourable Member to table the Supplementary Estimates of Health? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: I am tabling the Supple mentary Estimates for Health, Mr. Speaker.

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 3063 MEMBERS' STATEMENTS San Clara, Manitoba Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of pleasure that I rise today to pay tribute to the residents and volunteers in the community of San Clara, Manitoba. San Clara is a small community north of Roblin that was the first Manitoba site for the Cross-Canada Millennium Relay that entered our province on Sunday, June 18. I have actually two reasons to congratulate the people who live at San Clara because on that day they also opened their new San Clara and District Millen nium Park.

I want to pay tribute to all of those who volunteered to put together an excellent ceremony at San Clara on June 18. I want to thank the volunteers who worked with the Millennium Relay, and we are all, in our area, very proud to welcome the relay runners and their organization into Manitoba in our little community of San Clara. I also want to commend the work done by Fay Lenderbeck who was the M.C. that day for the ceremonies and thank her for all the work that she did in making that day possible.

I want to particularly applaud the volunteers who raised the money and did the actual work of con structing the San Clara and District Millennium Park. Many hours of work were put into this project. It is a testament to the spirit of co operation that we find in so many small rural Manitoba communities, and certainly San Clara was no exception to that fact. I want all honourable members to join me in congratulating the residents of San Clara for the opening of their new Millennium Park and for bringing in and welcoming the Millennium Cross-Canada Relay. Thank you. Farm and Food Days Mr.

Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to say a few words about the Heart of the Continent Farm and Food Days which will take place September 21 to 23 at Red River Exhibition Park. This year's edition of the event is unique in that, for the first time, the Valley Agricu ltural Society of Morris and the Red River Exhibition Association of Winnipeg are partnering in this project. Farm and Food Days is an opportunity for Manitobans to learn more about the agricultural industry.

The vision of Farm and Food Days is to focus on technology, research and trends in agriculture and food production that give producers a competitive edge in the global marketplace. It also hopes to provide an opportunity for increased consumer appreciation of agriculture and food production. This year's event is a culmination of several years of discussions, and the result is an event that will provide a showcase and a celebration of agriculture and food production. Indeed Farm and Food Days will provide an interactive opportunity for all Manitobans to celebrate the province's rich agricultural industry.

As one organizer said, it is supposed to encompass all of agriculture from gate to plate. Farm and Food Days is sure to offe r something for everyone, ranging fr om research and development oriented displays to sales of fresh Manitoba produce and cooking demonstrations. I would like to wish all organizers all the best with this new undertaking, and I would encourage all Manitobans to visit Farm and Food Days September 21 to 23 and become better acquainted with our province's agricultural sector. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Adrian Crump Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr.

Speaker, one February afternoon last year, 11-year-old Adrian Crump pushed three children out of the path of an accelerating pick-up truck. The River Elm School Safety patroller thus saved the lives of the three four-year-old girls, narrowly missing injury himself . It was a moving occasion yesterday, then, when Adrian was presented with the Canadian Automobile Assoc iation Governor General Lif esaving Award by our Lieutenant Governor Peter Liba.

To underline the signifi cance of the occasion, there was an array of representatives from the Government, including myself as the MLA for Elmwood, and organi zations which support school patrols. But what added special poignancy to the occasion was the presence of Adrian's 300 schoolmates, including

3064 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 the three whose lives he saved, as well as the girls' families. The Premier's congratulatory message to Adrian reads in part: Your instinctive action to protect the children who were crossing the street at that time is an example to all of us. I know that the families of these children will be forever gratef ul for your actions and that other children feel saf e knowing that you are on duty as a patrol. On behalf of the Government of Mani toba, it is an honour to extend congratulations and thanks to you for your heroic actions. Ms.

Debbie Korn, the parent crossing guard working with Adrian at the time of the incident, received a letter of commendation fr om the Premier for her

part in saving the three girls. It was Ms. Korn who first noticed the speeding truck and called out a warning to Adrian to push the children back on to the curb. I would like to take this occasion to add my personal thanks and congratulations to these two heroes. Melvin C. Toews Reading Garden Mr . .Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, on June 15 , the Jake Epp Library in the city of Steinbach honoured one of its most cherished members with the opening of the Melvin C. Toews Reading Garden. Mr.

Toews was, for the benefit of all members of this Chamber, a gentle man of unique character who taught elementary school in Steinbach for more than three decades. Throughout his life, he maintained a strong interest in Canadian history and presented to all his students a love of this great country. His habit of ref erring to his Grades 5 and 6 students as young Canadians led to the Elmdale Elemen tary School creating an annual award, upon Mr.

Toews' retirement, called the Young Canadian Award presented to a Grade 6 student who demonstrated the finer attributes of Canadian citizenship. * (14:40) Those who had the pl easure of being taught by Mr. Toews will always remember his creative lessons and the way he gave of his own resources and time to make the classroom educational and fun. Melvin Toews was a founding member of the Steinbach Library Board in '73 and worked hard to grow the library during his 20 years as a member of that board.

When the board decided to honour his contribution to the library, they chose to pay tribute to his two loves, the outdoors and reading, by creating the Reading Garden in his honour. Everyone at the opening agreed that it was a fitting memorial that would serve as a lifelong reminder of the many lives Mr. Toews contributed to positively with his efforts. On behalf of all honourable members, would like to thank all those who worked to bring this worthwhile tribute to reality. It is a proper and respectf ul reminder of an individual who was truly an extraordinary citizen. Thank you. East End Millennium Park Mr.

Scott Smith (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I stand today to pay tribute and recognition to a community project in Brandon. Mrs. Pamela Gramiak is the co-chair for an organization known as the East End Millennium Park Committee. which is made up of a group of concerned parents and community members, whose mission is to provide a clean, safe, accessible play structure for children 12 years and under, for people with all forms of abilities. The project was originally started with the hopes of getting a millennium grant going from both federal and provincial.

They were unsuc cessf ul in that. but that did not stop them, Mr. Speaker. They continued on with a fundraising goal of $50,000, and to date, they have made over $3 1,000 towards that goal.

The members of the community that have rallied to help out in this goal have gone fr om a small community organization to the entire city of Brandon and surrounding area, and people that deserve special recognition for it are certainly Chris de Gobeo, the manager of the McDonald's restaurants in Brandon that came through to provide funding through the Ronald McDonald Children's Charities of Canada to the tune of $22,450 to provide wheelchair portions and access for people with all abilities to the structure.

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3065 They have successf ully involved a number of other people in the city of Brandon, many of whom are seen on many volunteer projects. Sharon Moore, fr om the Society of Manitobans with Disabilities, has provided a great deal of assistance; Mr. Bob Pelletier, fr om the Canadian Paraplegic Associa tion of Manitoba, has spent a great deal of time and effort in volunteering for this project as well. The ef fects it will have on the quality of life in the city of Brandon are numerous.

The people that are doing it, I would just like to say in closing, are very inspiring, and I give credit to the dedication of the people and the members for their project and I wish them the very best. Than k you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Ms. Wow chuk), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CULTURE, HERITAGE AND TOURISM * (14:50) Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Tou rism. When the Committee last sat, it had been considering item 14.4. Tourism (

c) Tourism Development

(2) Other Expenditures, on page 54 of the Main Estimates book. Line 14.4.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures $204, 100. Shall the line pass? Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I have a couple of questions, and I wondered if I might have leave to ask them. Other Expenditures might not be a bad area. This has to do with a question to the Minister. One of the Govern ment's major initiatives in its first nine months has been to move to facilitate the estab lishment of five new casinos. I would like some clarification fr om the Minister in terms of her role, Culture, Heritage, Tourism and, of course, the Minister responsible for the Lotteries Corporation, in terms of the five new Aboriginal casinos.

Hon. Diane McGiff ord (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): As the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Touri sm-and I speak not as the Minister responsible for Lotteries because these estimates are the Estimates of Culture, Heritage and Tourism-! have had no role in the selection process of the five casinos. Now I do want to say that we had two individuals fr om the Department of Tourism who provided advice. Now let me just check. Just to continue, Mr. Chair.

I am advised that there were nine review components in the selection process and that one of those com ponents was the Department of Tourism and there were two individuals from the Department of Tourism who worked in this area. Mr. Gerrard: I would like clarification, not only on what the involvement has been to date but what the projected plans would be for the future, as the casinos might be perceived as being important for tourism, for culture and for heritage . Ms.

McGifford: As we said, one of the nine criteria was for tourism, so clearly there is the expectation that the casinos could have some value when it comes to touri sm. There was nobody from the Arts branch, there was nobody from Historic Resources who worked with Mr. Nadeau and Mr. Freedman. Mr. Gerrard: I take it then that your answer means that you see no role for these casinos in culture and heritage but only in tour ism.

3066 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 Ms. McGitTord: Mr. Chair, that is not precisely what I am saying. I am saying that two staff persons fr om Tourism were asked to review the proposals and provide some information, and I am not trying to dance around the Member's questions, but I have never seen any of the information. It is strictly confidential and remains strictly confidential. In fact, I did not know who these two members were until Nadeau and Freedman published their report. Mr.

Gerrard: As we are dealing with the Estimates of Expenditure in the coming year, I would ask that whether, in fact, you would see a role-as these casinos are built and start to operate-in culture or heritage as well as tourism, and if so, whether there would be any expenditures within the Department which might be earmarked in any way. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, it is somewhat tenuous, both the question and the answer because I want to make clear that as of yet, there are no casinos established. All the casinos, as I know that the Member understands. have caveats or conditions.

So, I do not know when the first casino will go up, I do not know if a casino will go up. None of us know that. This is all very much in process. It is very fluid. So, as I say, I am not trying to dance around the Member's questions, it is just that every thing is quite tenuous. Now, if a casino does go ahead, or if and when a casino does go ahead, then my Depart ment of Tourism is likely to work on the promotional aspects of the Aboriginal casinos with the proponents. We expect this to take place just as we have worked with McPhillips and Regent streets in promoting those casinos outside the province.

The third question the Member asked was do we expect to spend money or what would the expenditures be, or the proposed expenditures, and the answer is, we would not be spending money. The monies would come from the budgets of the casinos. Mr. Gerrard: So you are implying, if I understand correctly, that you may be ready, if the casinos move forward, to allocate staff time, and the money for that staf f time would come fr om the casinos themselves, not fr om the Department, which is the more common circumstance? Ms.

McGitTord: Our market ing staff, as part of their work, work with all departments on promoting endeavours that will bring tourists to Manitoba, so that is my answer. But the Member, I believe, had asked specifically if money would come from the budget of either the Arts Branch or Historical Resources. I think the words that the Member used were Culture and Heritage, and the answer to that is no. Mr.

Gerrard: Since part of the alloca tion of Estimates that we are dealing with in the course of starting the Estimates here deal with the Minister's Salary, and part of the Minister's responsibility is in terms of the Lotteries Cor poration, is it not fair to ask what you see as a role responsible for the Lotteries Corporation and the role of the Lotteries Corporation in up to five casinos at any point of time? Ms. McGifford: I do not know whether it is fair or not. Perhaps we need to get some advice fr om the Clerk. "( 15:00) Mr. Chairperson: I would like to pass a ruling here.

The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation is not contained in the Estimates of the Department of Culture. Heritage and Tourism as refer enced on page 4, Statutory Responsibility of the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism. The Minister is charged with administration of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Annual Report by regulation dated July 2, 1991, must be ref erred to a Standing Committee.

Theref ore, questions pertaining to the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation should be dealt with when the Manitoba Lotteries Corpora tion Annual Report goes before a Standing Committee of the Legislative Assembly. I might further add in the departmental Estimates of Consumer and Corporate Af fairs, resolution 5.1 , Administration Finance contains a line item (

t) entitled First Nations Casino Selection Committee. Members who have questions pertaining to this area should be directing them to the Minister of Consumer and

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3067 Corporate Affairs, when those Estimates, which are next on the order of Estimates in this room, come before the Committee. Thank you. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I have an alternate suggestion. The Member could certainly ask his questions in Question Period. Mr. Gerrard: I would like to go back once more to the issues of Heritage and Culture.

The First Nations in this province are rich in terms of heritage and culture, and it seems to me that there are some aspects of existing casino operations, the historical tour for example, which would deal with Heritage and Culture. I would like to ask one more time if there may not be a role in bringing forth a better understanding of heritage and culture of the Aboriginal community in the development of the casinos in the p Ianning? Ms. McGifford: Well, it is a very interesting question, and, I think, that the Member is suggesting very real and interesting possibilities.

I do not know what the design of the proposed casinos will be ultimately. I do not know whether there will be five casinos, two casinos, three casinos, one casino or zero casinos. But let us assume there will be some casinos, and if Aboriginal people choose to showcase their culture and heritage in the casinos in any way, I am sure that people in my department would be happy to provide any advice if that advice were sought. But I personally do not know how Aboriginal people will choose to showcase their casinos.

One interesting possibility is, we did speak yesterday, I believe, about the casino as a tourist destination, and one of the things that appears to draw more tourists is if there is more than one venue at a particular destination. So possibly another facility can be in the environs of the casino. There are a lot of possibilities, and I am sure that Aboriginal people are thinking about them. The Culture and Heritage portions of my department have not yet been consulted with, so I think we are speaking in the unknown right now.

So I am sorry again to provide answers that are tenuous, but they are because the nature of our discussion is tenuous. Mr. Gerrard: I would ask just a little bit further understanding. What is the current status of expertise within the Department in dealing with the culture and heritage of First Nations Aborigi nal people in Manitoba? Ms. McGifford: Well, you know, it is a very interesting question because I know that I toured the historic branch in October, and I was absolutely staggered by the expertise in that department. Every person who works in that department has exper tise.

I am sorry that the staff from Historic Resources are not with us they were here yesterday-b ecause we could give you much more specific information. Of course, if you wish to write to me, we can always supply more details about the expertise of people in the Historic Resources branch. But we have historians, we have archa eologists, we have archivists, we have people who are extremely interested in Aboriginal history, Aboriginal arti facts, archaeology.

I know that my department has worked in the North in many areas with excavations and assisting Hydro in preserving and removing artifacts if there is going to be dams or flooding or whatever. So we really do have a lot of expertise in the Historic Resources branch, and we are very proud of the work that they do. Mr. Gerrard: I am pleased to hear that. I would ask in follow-up, what is the number or proportion of staff within the Department who have an Aboriginal or First Nations background? Ms. McGifford: Perhaps we could provide the Member with that information in writing.

As I told him, the staff are not here who have the expertise in that area. Mr. Gerrard: That would be fine. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Just a couple of questions under Tourism. I know that the Tourism Department were asked to provide some advice in regard to the casino proposals, and I am just wondering if the Minister could enlighten us as to what type of information were they seeking from the Department of Tourism in that regard. Ms. McGifford: As I already indicated, I cannot provide detail because there were consultations, and that information was all confidential. I just

3068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 wanted to add for the benefit of the Member for Turtle Mountain, indeed I have not seen the information that staffpersons provided because it was confidential to Nadeau and Freedman. Mr. Tweed: I guess then, can you identify who those people from Tourism were? Ms. McGifford: Yes, I can. Until the Nadeau and Freedman report was released, in fact, I could not, because I did not know. But the names are Joe Keszi and Jan Collins, and they are both development consultants. Mr.

Tweed: I guess what the Minister is saying is that people from her department were taken to work on a secret project that she was completely uninformed about. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, of course, language is always very interesting, and the nuances of words are very interesting, so I would not talk about a secret project. I do not think it was secret. Everybody knew that this process was going on. I would say that the process was con fidential, and confidential for very good reasons, and many government processes are confi dential. Most business processes are confiden tial.

There are nearly always very good reasons for confidentiality. In this particular case, the process was confidential. It was an agreement reached between the AMC and government to each nominate a person to the selection committee. I think that the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs (Mr. Lemieux) has made this point several times in the House so that the AMC named Mr. Nadeau and the Government named Mr. Freedman, and then these two individuals sought advice from nine depart ments. Included amongst those nine departments was the Tourism part of Culture, Heritage and Tourism.

Tourism assigned two individuals to work with the selection committee. Now, these indi viduals were not, by any means, working day and night with the selection committee. I am informed that they had a couple of intensive weeks of work during the period when the selection committee was doing its work, and, of course, the work ended on June I, when the report was released. * (15:10) Mr.

Tweed: I guess the only comment I would make is, no matter what businesses do or governments do, the managers or the people in charge of the Department, in my mind, would know where those people were and what they were seconded or asked to do. It would seem odd that Mr. Keszi and Ms. Collins would perhaps not show up for work for two weeks and nobody would suggest to anybody in the Department where they might be. I guess my question would be: Is the Minister the only one in the Department that did not know that those people were on there? Ms.

McGifford: Well, there are a number of comments that I would like to make. First of all, I want to point out that the individuals were not seconded away. They worked within the Depart ment. and it was deemed that this was the way that they would work. Let me stress again that the co-chairs of the selection committee ran a very confidential distant-from-government process, and again they ran a very confidential distant-from-government process for very important reasons.

Had the Department or had the Minister been intimately involved, the independence of the selection committee would have been questioned and the choices of the selection committee would have been not worth the paper they were written on. So there was, as I have repeatedly said, some very good reasons for confidentiality. Mr. Tweed: Is the Min ister suggesting that no minister of the Government knew of any names that were being used by the selection committee? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I can only speak for myself. I cannot speak for the other individuals.

Perhaps the Member would like to talk to the other ministers in question, but I can speak only for myself, and as I said, in order to ensure the integrity of this process, the confidenti ality of this process, the selection committee was run in the way it was run.

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3069 Mr. Tweed: We ll, then, I guess the Minister would agree with that statement because she just said that, in order to keep the integrity, no one knew. I guess I am a little confused or a li ttle di sappointed that not one person in government, not one person in the Cabinet knew who was being chosen from their working depa rtm ents to provide advice. I find that absolutely astonishin g. Ms. McGifford: Well, I just want to make the point again. I just want to make the point real ly clearly to the Member that I can only speak for myself .

I do not know what other minis ters knew or did not know, so I am speaking for myse lf. If the Member wants to know what other mem bers knew or did not know, I think he has to speak to these memb ers. Let us just be clear about that. Mr. Tweed: Has the Departm ent of Tourism provided any stud ies to the casino proponents as to tourism opportunities with the development of a casino? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, just to check, is the Member asking me if we provided any stud ies to the existing casinos or to the proponents of the possibly succes sful five casinos? Mr.

Tweed: I would expect I would be asking about the five proposed casinos. Ms. McGifford: And so the question is: Have we provided any studies to the proposed casinos, the five casinos? Mr. Tweed: Has the Departm ent of Tourism provided any studies or any information to the casino proje cts in order to allow them to finish a business plan which includes, I would hope would include, some tourism numbers and some tourism opportunities that were seen to help offset the development of the casino? Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chair, the proponents who produce proposals, of which I believe there were II proposals, if the Member is asking us if any of those II proponents were able to seek advice from the Department of Tourism-is that the question? Mr. Tweed: I will try to state this as clear as I poss ibly can. Did the Department of Tourism provide any studies or any analysis of markets to offer to the proponents of the casinos in order to help them enhance or include in their projects? *( 1 5: 20) Ms.

McGifford: But I am not clear whether the Member is asking about the 11 proponents who submitted proposals or whether the Member is what does the Member specifical ly mea n by proponents? Mr. Tweed: The proposals that the RFPs that were called for looked at all sorts of aspects as to where a casino should be and could be de vel oped in the province of Manitoba. Did the Tourism Department provide any information or studies to enhance these proponents' proposals to be a part of the selection? Ms. McGifford: I thank you. I am advised, Mr.

Chair, that the Department of Tourism, for example, did not do a general mail-out providing tourist information to proponents or the two proponents. Independent consultants, who indi vidual proponents had hired to assist them with their plans, may have contacted the Department of Tourism. I would like to take that question under adviseme nt, because we do not have the infor mation with us today. Mr. Tweed: The people that were making the proposals for Aboriginal casinos, obviously part of the imp act would be what is the tourism upside of this.

Obviously, unbeknownst to the Minister, two people from her department were assigned to provide that type of information. I am asking was there a study or anything that was provided by the Department that would give them that information. Ms. McGifford: I am sorry , Mr. Chair, that the Member is becoming so exasperate d. Let me be clear. The two persons from the Department of Tourism provided no information whatsoever to the proponents; rather, they worked with Mr. Freedma n and Mr. Nadeau, not with the proponents.

As I said, the proponents may have hired consultants who may have contacted the Department of Tourism seeking advice or

3070 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 statistics or information, but I do not have that information. We want to make sure that the Member gets very accurate answers, so we are not going to hazard a guess. We are going to get very concrete definite information for the Membe r, and we will forward it to him. Mr. Tweed: Would a fair question then be : Did any of those proponents that may have contacted the Department of Tourism for information to enhance their proje cts, would they have contact with Joe Keszi or Jan Collins? Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chair, normally when an individual contacts the Tourism Development people, they would be ref erred to research people for statistics and stud ies. Mr. Tweed: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister plan to undertake any studies in the areas where the new casinos have been announced in regard to tourism opportunities, tourism numbers and proposals that would enhance these opportunities? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I think we have been talking about the fluid ity of the whole process. I know that in the House the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr.

Lemieux) has made the point that this is step one, and we do not know how many casinos will eventu ally be created. There may be as many as five. Until there is something more definite, or until we mig ht be asked by the imple mentation com mittee, which is beginning to- we ll, it has been formed and will begin its work-u ntil we are asked by the impl ementation committee to provide them with information or to do some research that they may require, we in our department are not planning to do any research. Mr.

Tweed: Has the Department of Tourism provided any funding for any studies or any background studies in regard to the casinos? Ms. McGifford: In response to the question. has there been any funding for the Department in relationship to tourism with regard to these five casinos, no, there has not been. Mr. Tweed: Has there been any appli cation by any of the five successf ul proponents to access funding to do a tourism study? Ms. McGifford: We have not seen any, which is not to say, I suppose, that there is not an application in the mail or in the office, but we have not seen any. Mr. Chairperson: Line 14 .4.

Tourism (

c) Tourism Development

(2) Other Expendit ures $204, l 00-p ass;

(3) Grant Assi stance $498,600- pass. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair. perhaps I could take this opportunity to put some information on the record in response to a question that was asked to me yesterday by the Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed). He was interested in the number of vacancies in Translation Services. My information is that on October 5 there were five vacancies, and today there are three vacancies. This government is very committed to the Chartier report, and, of course, that is why we are very anxious to staff Translation Services and get materi als translated.

I also wanted to put on the record at the same time that yesterday the Member for River Heig hts (Mr. Gerrard) was asking me some questions about the Manitoba Film and Sound Development Corporation. I told him that the Manitoba Film and Sound Development Cor poration did not admini ster the Manitoba tax credit. and I have been corrected by my staff. In fact, they corrected me yesterday, but it was just about six o'clock, so I did not put the correct information on the record.

In fact, the Manitoba Film ana Mund Development Corporation do adminis ter the program, but the decisions are made by the Department of Finance. Our department is cert ainly vocal in urging the Department of Finance to make certain decisions with regard to this program, but it actually is that department that makes the decisions. The program for film tax credit is adminis tered by Film and Sound. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Tweed: I do want to thank the Minister for those comments.

Although I was not here, I was lis tening to the Member for River He ights' questions, and I think it is worth acknowledging the fact that the film industry in the province of Manitoba in the past I 0 years has grown con sid erab ly, and the new announceme nts of the

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 307 1 current investment that is taking place in Manitoba, I think, are a tremendous statement for Manitoba. I do want to add a footnote, though, that I do bel ie ve that that strong growth is happening beca use the province and, for tunate ly, the province under the new government continues to recognize the advantages of the tax incentives to those companies. * (15: 30) Mr. Chairperson: We have comple ted the line by li ne for resolution 14 .4. I will read it now.

Resolution 14 .4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Maje sty a sum not exceeding $7. 351 ,900 for Culture, He ritage and Tourism, Tourism, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of!\1arch, 2001. Resolution agreed to. Item 14 .7. Amortization of Capital Assets $628,3 00- pass. Resolu tion 14 .7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Maje sty a sum not exceeding $628.300, for Cultu re, He ritage and Tourism, Amortization of Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to.

The last item to be conside red for the Estimates of the Departm ent of Culture, Heritage and Tourism is item 14.1 .(

a) Minister's Salary $27,300. At this point we request that the Minister's staff leave the table for the consider ation of this item. Item 14. l .(

a) Minis ter's Salary $27,300. Shall the line pass? An Honourable Member: No. Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Chair, last Thursday, and I want to read into the record a comment made by the Minister regard ing the memo that I had requested on several occasions: "When we began proceedings today," and I am quoting her exact comments, "I did say that my department looked through some of our documents and found a document that contained some phrasing that was simila r to something that occurred in the Doug Nairne article." My question to the Minis ter is: Is she prepared to table that memo today? Ms.

McGifford: Mr. Chair, I have repea tedly told members opposite that there is not a memo. The Member persists in the use of that term, but it is not a memo. Mrs. Dacquay: Then I will rephrase my question, Mr. Chair. Is the Minister prepared to table that information in whatever form it may be? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, the point I made last week, perhaps it was the day bef ore this par ticular document was discussed, was that I would ask staff to peruse the various docu mentation rela ted to the matter of the art inventory, and, subject to the FIPPA process, we would release those documents.

Now, let me add that-wel l, that is what I said last week. Mrs. Dacquay: Has the Minister's department determined that the document does indeed follow the FIPPA guidelines? Ms. McGifford: I do not quite understand the question as to whether the document-documents do not follow FIPPA guidelines. Documents can be requested under FIPPA, and perhaps the Member is asking me: Is this particular document a document that would be protected? I may not have my language quite absolutely correct, but I think the Member is asking me is this a document that would be a mandatory exclusion or a di scretionary? Mrs.

Dacquay: Has the Minis ter confirmed her statement and consulted with her department to see if there are any documents that can be released? If so, is she prepared to table them today? Ms. McGifford: As I said, the docume nts can be released, subject to the FIPPA process, and there are, I believe, 30 days under FIPPA to release documents.

3072 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 Mrs. Dacquay: Has the Minister reflected on the comments made by her colleague, the Minis ter of Governme nt Services (Mr. Ashton), and is she prepared to offe r an apology today comparable to what the Minis ter of Government Services did both on his behalf and on her behalf ? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I have nothing to apologize, and I am not prepared to offe r an apology. I did, when the Minister of Government Services spoke last day, say that I thought the Free Press

article was regretf ul, but I do not have anything to apologize for. I have not done anything wrong. As I said-I cannot remember which day it was; they seem to run into one another after a while, but as I said, here I stand, I have not done anything wrong. I have nothing to apologize. So, in fact, I think it was Martin Luther that I quoted that day. Mrs.

Dacquay: Given that the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism is the only individual identified in all four of the newspaper articles and is spe cifically quoted in at least two of those articles, will she acknowledge that in deed the information carne from her departm ent? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, first of all, I do not agree with the information that the Member has put on the record because the

article that memb ers seems to be so exorcised about, I believe, was an

article published on January I i. If my me mory serves me, this was the

article that got everybody quite twitterpated, and I can understand why, but r am not quoted in the article. I was not consulted with the article. in relationship to this article. It has absolutely nothing to do with me. My staff were not consulted; I have confidence in my staff, and here I stand. Mr. Chair, I do not know specifically what the Member is ref erring to. I could run through the chronology, and maybe I will just take this opportunity to run through the chronology of events. I thought we had been around this block half a dozen times, and here we go again.

The chronology, as I understand it, is, well, let me re ally back up to summer 19 99 when, I believe, it must have been the former Minister of Culture, He ritage and it would have been Citizenship at that time apparently hir ed summer students to undertake an inven tory of art in the Legislative Bui lding. Perso nally, I wonder about having summer students do such im portant work, but it is better than the work not having been done. I understand that the work had not been done for two or three years, so it was a very good idea that these individuals were hired to do the work.

So there was some sort of base guideline of where various art works were in the summer of 19 99. * (15: 40) Then what intervened was the ele ction, June -pardon me, we thought it mi ght have been earlier but it was not-September 21, 19 99. On September 22, there was a memo from Don Leitch, Clerk of the Executive Council, to offices in the Legisla tive Buildi ng advising everybody of the procedures following the election, and residents of offices were instructed that their art was to remain in current locations. I know that members opposite made quite a fuss about the fact that Mr.

Leitch actually sent the memo to deputy minis ters and not to minis ters, but having complete confidence in both the deputy mi nis ters I have dealt with and hearing all my colleagues talk about their confidence in their deputy minis ters, I have complete confi dence that those deputy minis ters passed this particular information on and that people knew that art should stay in its current location.

Now, we did talk for a while about human frailty, and I think somebody pointed out that some mem bers do not read memos, but the former Fir st Minister was here talking to me about mi nis terial accountabili ty, and I thought I had shown extreme minis terial respo nsibil ity in hearing that there may poss ibly be a problem in taking action. That was minis terial respon sibility.

My point here is, on the one hand, I am expected to be replete and gushing with minis terial respons ibili ty, but members apparently are not expected to read a memo or to take in struction from their deputy min ister or to lis ten to their deputy minis ter. I see a little bit of an inconsistency there. Anyway, Mr. Leitch sent out this memo on September 21. Then I hear during the period of October to November, 19 99, foll owing the election, there seemed to be a sense that

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3073 individuals were moving out of their offices into new locations. Government Services were not necessa rily informed of the fact that individuals were, in some cases, removing the art. I just want to address, because people have addressed their individual cases, I formerly had an office in the suite of offices 13 2, and when I was an opposition member I had two pieces of art in my office. One was a quilt and one of them was a Chinese vase. What happened in this case is we were instructed to take everyth ing out of those offices because of painting.

So those two thi ngs came with me to my location because there was not a location to keep them in. Since there was not a location, we immedia tely, as soon as we found out, notified the Government Services that those two pieces of art were moved out of the office because I did not have an office. I had to move everything out of that office. This makes the point once again that I have made time and time again in this commit tee. That is I have always spoken about misl ocated pie ces of art. I never talked about mem bers stealing art or hiding art with a determination to come back and pick it up later.

Those were never my words, not in this commit tee. Certainly there is nothing in the media that suggests this. Again, as I have said time and time again, I am not respon sible for what Mr. Nairne might have written in the paper on January 11 , 2000. Anyway, we had the inventory in the summer, 19 99. Then here we were in October, November. People were moving about the buildi ng, et cetera. Staf f fe lt we needed to have some sense of where the pieces of art were.

I think I have said time and time again in this committee that I was very concerned about the art colle ction because, when I was in opposition, people in the community expressed concerns to me about the art collection, particularly about conservation of the art colle ction. So I fe lt that an inven tory was a good idea, and so st af f prepared an inventory. There was a staf f person from Government Services and a staf fperson from Cult ure, He ritage and Tourism. From December 3 until December 15 , these persons conducted the initial inventory of art in the Legisla tive Bui lding.

This activity was observed by people in the Legis- lative Building and by the media, who were in the building at the same time, of course. The media apparently expressed curiosity. They were told that there was an invent ory taking place. The next thing we hear is, on January 3, 2000, this story in the Free Press regard ing "mis located works of art." The di rector of the Arts Branch was contacted, I bel ieve, the next day. He indi cated, I believe, in an

article on the very next day-I do not have all the press pieces bef ore me-that we fe lt that we would be able to locate all these works of art, that they were mislo cated works of art. Indeed we have located vir tually all those works of art. I think it was on February 1, I was informed that there were 10 works of art that had not been accounted for. Gradually the numbers came down. Then, as I think we have said several tim es-! cannot seem to find the particular document-by the time we showed up in this comm ittee, the number of works of art-<>h, here it is-had dissi pated to four missing pieces.

I think I have read those pieces. It was perhaps on my very first appearance bef ore this commi ttee, as a member of this comm ittee, which would have been 10 days ago or something lik e that, that I spoke about the misl ocated art. * (15 :50) I think I acknowledged that day that the former Fi rst Minis ter, now the leader of the Opposition, had at one point requested an update on the misplaced art and that I had written back to him.

Then he had written again, and my department was preparing a communication for him, but since he was bef ore this commit tee and is no doubt reading Hansard, I would think that that matter is firmly in hand. So there are four works of art that are to be accounted for. One is a ceram ic sculpture by Jordan Van Sewell, Western Hour Continues, last located in Room 166 of the Legisla tive Build ing, which was the office of the former Minis ter of Education. Now, I do not know what happened to this work of art.

Staff think there is a possibility that it mi ght be broken beca use it was a ceram ic piece, and ceram ic pieces are subject to breakage . I know I have told the comm ittee time and time again that I had a glass

3074 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 piece in my office by Judy Jennings a very well known glass artist, and it was accidentally knocked over in my office and to my consternation was broken. But, very fortunately, we were able to replace that piece. Also, a second piece was found. A ceram ic wall piece by Jordan Van Sew ell, Still Life with Plums, was last inventoried in Room 17 0, Legislative Buildi ng.

It is the office of the former Minister of Urban Affairs, and when this committee met and I read out this name, Still Life with Plums, up pops the former Minister of Urban Affairs and says he thin ks he has it. He did have it and my expla nation-and this is, of course, a guess-is that perhaps what happened was that this particular individu al went from one office to another, did not read Mr. Leitch's memo, or did not get the information from Mr. Leitch.

I certainly do not think, and let me put it on the record, I do not have anything to swear on but I swear nonetheless, that I do not think that member, the former Minister of Urban Affairs, stole the piece. I think he probably did not see anything wrong with putting it in a box and carting it off with him, if that is what he did. But anyway he found the piece, Still Life with Plums, and he informed us, and now we are down to three pieces. I have already explained that of the four pieces we are now down to three. One could have been broken, the ceram ic sculpture by Jordan van Sewel l.

There is also one wall carving by Keith Morrisea u called Shield of Peace. It was previously located in Room 17 0. Legisla tive Buil ding, the office of the former Minister of Urban Affairs. This piece we have not been able to track down, and once again I do not believe that the former Minister of Urban Affairs has smuggled it away in the dead of night or anything like that. I simply belie ve that this piece has either been misplaced and will sti ll show up or, the term I have used time and time again, is mislo cated. So that is that. Then the last piece of this four is a vase by Kathy Koop, a beige vase.

It is apparently 15 years old. It could have been broken. We have not been able to track down this particular piece of art, but I am told that we have a dupli cate of it which is good news, and I am also told that it was last inventoried in Room 226, the Legis lative Bui ldin g, and I at one time had a comple te list of who had been in there since about 19 86 and on. So, you know, Mr. Chair, I have been through the chronology.

I have explained my role as that of a minis ter who was concerned with maintaining the inv entory, with making sure that we knew where pieces were. and my reason for calling an inven tory was motivated by minis terial respo nsibility. Despite the scurrilous remarks that have been put on the record, it was motivated by minis terial respon sibil ity, and I am pleased that we did the inven tory because we now have a good lis t of the works of art and where the works are located, and we have also taken a couple of very proactive steps.

One of them is to appoint a guardian for works of art, pardon me a custodian, in an office, and the other one is we are in the process of preparing materials which will alert individuals to the care of art in their offices. So I think the outcome of this inven tory is very positive in all aspects. It is unfortunate that members opposite fe lt that their names and reputations had been impu gned, and that is regretf ul. but it was nothing to do with me, and I cannot apologize for something that I am not respo nsible for. With those remarks, Mr. Chair, I will conclude. Mr. Tweed: Mr.

Chair, I do not know what the expression is. I think the Minister-it is very regre ttable with her attitude that she has shown throughout the entire Estimates process. Her arrogance is only superseded by her sarcasm when she is talking about former members of government and, in fact, I think even in her ref erences talking about her own colle agues. It is interesting that the Minister talks about a letter that was sent on September 21 by Don Leitch to all deputy minis ters in the government departments.

She finds it hard to believe that in a process where people are packing and some people are having it done for them and offices are being changed and moved around, that memos do not get read or they get mi splaced.

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3075 Yet here is a mini ster who has openly admitted today in questions that two of her staff were being used by another part of government, and she had no idea what they were doing or who they were or what they were even doing. It is absolutely amazing that a minis ter would put that on the record and then admit that she knew nothing about what was going on in her department, as she did today. It is quite interesting also to note, Mr.

Chair, that Government Servic es-and I use my office as an exampl e-packed my office and included a picture that was hanging on the wall. Obviously. they did not read the le tter either, or they were not advised, because it was not the individuals who were making the moves. In a lot of cases, it was the Government Services people, of whom she confirms were part of drafting the original letter and sending it out to people so that they could be aware of it. I do not think the Minister has probably grasped her respons ibili ty when it comes to min isterial respon sibility.

We get to the leaked memos that have come out in the newspaper, and it is her department that is respo nsible for that, of which she is the Minister. As the Minister, she takes the ultimate respons ibil ity for decisions and for actions within her departm ent. She refuses to accept that, and I think that is unfortunate. I think that will reflect very di sparagingly on her record of government as a minis ter of the Crown and as a minis ter respo nsible to the people of the pro vince of Manitoba. We have recently seen introduction of legisla tion into the House where the Premier (Mr.

Doer) talks about election campaigns, and he says it time and time again: Perception of the public is more impor tant than the real ities. By her department releasing that document and di sparaging every member of the Legisla ture is absolutely shamef ul. For her not to accept that respons ibil ity as a minis ter of the Crown is even more shamef ul. For that I do say shame on you, because you have respons ibi li ties and you are neglecting them, and you are ref using to accept those responsib il ities. The Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Ashton) shared his respon sibil ities, and I accept his apologies the other day, although he even said, bef ore he started his remarks, he did not even know he was respons ible for that bef ore the memo was released. So, obviously, the memo came from the Minis ter of Cult ure's department. No one else, no one else's department is respons ible but the Minister of Culture, and today she continues in her arrogance and in her sarcasm to ref use to accept the respo nsibili ties that have been placed upon her. I think that is despica ble.

She lec tures members on this side of the House about their behaviour, and then she behaves in an almost twice as bad manner with no respect and no considerati on for any of the members, and again I would include her own members of her own party at that particular time. She taints us all, and I am ashamed to be associated with the Minister with those kinds of remarks. It is something that I think we will con tinue to move and ask for.

We will be requesting it through FIPPA to get the documents, and eventu ally the truth will prevai l, Madam Minister, and you will be held accountable and you will be held respon sible. I think, for you to stand here today and lec ture any membe rs of any side of the Government or Opposition, you do not have the respect of this side to do that. With that, Mr. Chair, I will conclude my remarks, and we are cert ainly unpleased to pass the Minister's Salary. Mr. Chairperson: Line 14.1 Adminis tration and Finance (

a) Minister's Salary $27,3 00-pass. Resolution 14. 1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Maje sty a sum not exceeding $2,649,000 for Culture, Her itage and Tourism, Adminis tration and Finance $2,649,000 for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 200 1. Resolution agreed to. This comple tes the Estimates of the Depart ment of Culture, Heritage and Tourism. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply are the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Shall we briefly recess to allow the Minis ter and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the com-

3076 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 mencement of the next set of Estimates? [Agreed] We will have a recess for five minutes. Thank you. The Committee recessed at 4:0 0p.m. The Committee resumed at 4:10p .m. CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS * (16:10 ) Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Depart ment of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Does the Honourable Minister of Con sumer and Corporate Affairs have an opening statement? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Yes, Mr. Chair, I do. It is my privilege to place the 2000-2001 Estimates for Consumer and Corporate Affairs before this committee for review. The Department's vision is a fair, efficient and informed marketplace for consumers and businesses.

Our mission is to foster business and consumer confidence in the marketplace and to administer a regulatory framework that con tributes to a competitive Manitoba economy. Our goals are to contribute to a dynamic Manitoba economy by creating certainty in the marketplace through the administration of a legal framework within which consumers, business, and nonprofit organizations operate. Just on that point, I would like to comment with regard to the dynamic Manitoba economy.

The previous administration, certainly I do not mind giving credit where credit is due. in some cases were able to be successful with regard to the economy in Manitoba within the '90s. I do not mind giving some credit to the previous administration for that very difficult time. Certainly it should be pointed that with regard to certain areas they were very successful. They should be commended and congratulated on that. I will not go too far, though, Mr. Chair.

To help consumers also and businesses resolve their dispute; to promote and enhance consumer and business knowledge and skill s; to maintain registries of information for the protection of individual and property rights; to provide quality service; use fiscal resources responsibly and collect fee and tax revenue; to anticipate, identify, monitor marketplace issues, recommend appropriate action, and to determine prices for services from utilities. I would like to highlight some of our accom plishments and our plans for the future for the Department.

I would like to begin first of all by looking at motor fuel prices. I will start with the impor tant topic of motor fuel prices and what my department is doing in this area. Our government is concerned about motor fuel prices. Last winter I met with all the oil companies to express several concerns and to discuss rising prices for gasoline and other fuels. Now, included within those companies were Shell. Domo, and certainly others. There were a lot of other organizations that we certainly met with and spoke to to discuss those issues. Issues regarding motor fuels are not unique to Manitobil.

They ilre a national issue. I think most Manitobans would recognize that. I believe all Canadians do. Although the current high prices will eventually drop, it will not be long before some other event once again causes fuel prices to increase and public confidence in the oil industry to decrease. Last February I wrote to the federal govern ment and other provinces to suggest that we take joint action. I proposed the formation of a specialized national agency to address motor fuel issues. The proposed agency would operate on an ongoing basis.

It would have the expertise to track fuel prices and related data, investigate reasons for fuel price changes, and identify any action needed at the federal and provincial levels. The agency would be staffed by federal

June 22, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3077 public servants and would report to a steering committee representing the federal government and each province and territory. In responding to my proposal, the federal government and several provinces indicated an interest in working together. This was certainly not only welcome news to me but also to my staff within our department, because we under stand what a tremendous burden and an issue that gasoline prices not only place on a family, but also the issue as a whole is very discon certing to most people to see the price of gasoline going up at the pump.

They see it every day just driving down any street in Winnipeg or in their communities, whether they would be rural or northern communities in Manitoba. As I mentioned, the proposed agency would operate on an ongoing basis. It would have the expertise to track fuel prices and related data, investigate reasons for fuel price changes and identify any action needed at the federal and provincial levels. The agency would be staffed by federal public servants and would report to a steering committee representing the federal government and each province and territory.

In responding to my proposal, the federal government and several provinces indicated an interest in working together. Whether this will be through a national agency or some other form of action is something we will be discussing further. The federal government announced several weeks ago that it would be conducting a study of the gasoline industry through the Conference Board of Canada. The study will consist of two main stages. The first stage will be an analysis of the industry including various forms of regulation attempted in Canada and the United States.

The second stage will be the holding of symposia at five cities across Canada. The purpose of the symposia would be to review the results of the first stage and attempt to obtain stakeholder agreement on how various aspects of the industry affect fuel prices. Now, as I mentioned in my preface to my opening comments, I do not mind giving credit where credit is due. On the other hand I would like to receive also when it is due. This is an issue where I real ly pushed with the federal government.

We felt that this body was imperative to be put in place that would have a perspective from across Canada and that all Canadians would have input into fuel prices and how fuel prices come about. When I say credit, I do not mean credit personally, but credit for my department. My department worked very hard in trying to address this issue, which we know is a very, very difficult issue for any government to face.

I would really congratulate my department for doing an outstanding job on this and working really hand in hand with the federal government to ensure that the Conference Board of Canada would take this upon themselves to look at this important issue. I know that all members in the House certainly recognize the importance of this issue, and I am sure whether it would be Domo Gas or Petro Canada would really see this as an important issue to be looked into.

When the Conference Board study was announced, there was widespread speculation that fuel prices would not quickly drop even with OPEC's increased production of crude oil. This concern has been borne out with the recent price increases. I wrote to the federal govern ment and suggested that the Conference Board be asked to monitor crude oil and motive fuel prices, investigate any fuel price changes or la£k thereof that were inconsistent with changes in crude oil costs. I understand that the federal government has asked the Conference Board to consider this suggestion.

In addition to the monitoring suggestion, I also pointed out to the federal government that the Conference Board study was not intending to include in their analysis farm fuels and fuel prices in northern centres. I noted the hardship higher farm fuel prices would create for farmers and the extent to which northern fuel prices are higher than those in southern parts of Canada. I have been informed that farm fuels and northern prices will now be included in the study. Once again, I believe my department should be congratulated on this.

I think we persevered and we pushed extremely hard to ensure that the Conference Board would be looking at this area because, as we as Manitobans know, whether we live in Steinbach, Lorette, Thompson, Churchill, or Russell, Manitoba, we understand that taking

3078 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 2000 a look at the difference in pncmg and the differences consumers have to face, whether they be located in the southern part or the northern part, really is an important issue. It was imperative that we brought that to not only the conference board's attention via the Minister, but I think to all of us that sit here today. I think it is important to note that. One other suggestion I made to the federal government regarding the Conference Board study is the inclusion of Winnipeg as a sym posium site.

Given Winni peg's role in the transportation sector, Winnipeg is a natural choice for a symposium. We are continuing to pressure the federal government on this item. I would like to point out also the former premier of the Province certainly has pointed out in the House on numerous occasions as a rookie MLA and Cabinet minister how important Winnipeg is. Geographically, we are centred in the middle of Canada and also, I believe, very, very close to being in the middle of North America.

We have a great role to play with regard to the advantages we have being geographically located as we are. * (1 6:20) As I mentioned, we are continually trying to pressure the federal government on this item. The federal government has already picked their location as to where they want to hold these symposiums, but we are certainly not fall ing back with regard to our advances that we have made so far with regard to locations and so on. We just feel that Winnipeg would be a natural. We are hoping to be able to push fonvard all the advantages of that to the federal minister.

Along with making these suggestions, identified several stakeholders that would be interested in the study and now may have useful input into this. These are some of the steps we have taken in regard to motor fuels. I am sure that all members, certainly in the House as I mentioned, realize that this is a very important issue, and certainly we do as well. I would like to move on to a couple of other areas, Mr. Chair, that we certainly view as being very important, and certainly, as part of my department, I also view it as being very impor tant. This next one is certainly no Jess or no more important.

It was something that I felt that needed to be commented on. First Nations Casino Project. I would now like to m

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-50b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 50b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9a322e2e46a470337adbf6e6970e8170500093a8

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