Manitoba Committee Hansard — 26 October 2017 (Social and Economic Development Committee, Sitting 10, 41st Legislature, 2nd Session)

41-2-sed10

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development Chairperson Mr. Doyle Piwniuk Constituency of Arthur-Virden Vol. LXX No. 10 - 6 p.m., Thursday, October 26, 2017 ISSN 1708-6698

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia Ind. FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen St.

Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples Ind. SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SELINGER, Greg St. Boniface NDP SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff, Hon.

Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian, Hon. Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC

319 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT Thursday, October 26, 2017 TIME – 6 p.m. LOCATION – Winnipeg, Manitoba CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Doyle Piwniuk (Arthur-Virden) VICE-CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Len Isleifson (Brandon East) ATTENDANCE – 11 QUORUM – 6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Messrs. Eichler, Wharton Messrs. Allum, Isleifson, Ms. Lamoureux, Messrs. Lindsey, Maloway, Michaleski, Nesbitt, Piwniuk, Wowchuk APPEARING: Mr. Mohinder Saran, MLA for The Maples Ms. Flor Marcelino, MLA for Logan Mr. Rajesh Amilal, private citizen PUBLIC PRESENTERS: Mr.

Chamkaur Brar, private citizen Mr. Satnam Singh Bassra, private citizen Mr. Amanpreetpal Singh Brar, private citizen Mr. Iqbal Gill, private citizen Mr. Indergit Singh, private citizen Mr. Himat Singh Dhaliwal, private citizen Mr. Harjot Dhaliwal, private citizen Mr. Jattan Dhaliwal, private citizen Ms. Nirmal Dhaliwal, private citizen Ms. Navdep Bedi, private citizen Mr. TJ Bedi, private citizen Ms. Kiranjeet Bedi, private citizen Ms. Manjeet Dhillon, private citizen Mr. Harjinder Singh Dhillon, on behalf of Nachhater Sangha, private citizens Mr. Tebebu Telahun, private citizen Mr.

Inderpal Grewal, private citizen Mr. Baljeet Kumar Sharma, private citizen Mr. Simarjeet Brar, private citizen Mr. Manoj Sharma, private citizen Mr. Charnanjit Gill, private citizen Mr. Barry Prentice, private citizen Ms. Manjit Dhillon, private citizen Mr. Zena Mussie, private citizen Mr. Barry Homenick, private citizen Mr. Devinder Saran, private citizen Mr. Jaswinder Dhaliwal, private citizen Mr. Harbans Takhar, private citizen Mr. Balwinder Sidhu, private citizen Mr. Baljinder Sran, private citizen MATTERS UNDER CONSIDERATION: Bill 30–The Local Vehicles for Hire Act * * * Mr.

Vice- Chairperson: Good evening, folks. We – will the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development please come to order. Before the committee can proceed with the business before it today, it must elect a new Chairperson. Are there any nominations for this position? Mr. Greg Nesbitt (Riding Mountain): I nominate Doyle Piwniuk. Mr. Vice- Chairperson: Doyle Piwniuk has been nominated. Any further nominations? Okay, hearing no other nominations, Mr. Piwniuk, will you please take the Chair. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr.

Chairperson: This meeting is called to continue consideration of Bill 30, The Local Vehicles for Hire Act. I would like to inform all attendees –'tendance' that the provisions of the rules are regarding the hour of adjournment. The standing committee meeting is considering a bill must not sit past midnight to hear the public presentations or to consider the c lause by clause of a bill except for the unanimous consent of the committee.

In addition, the standing committee and social and economic development will meet again to consider Bill 30, if necessary, tomorrow, Friday, October 27th, at 10 a.m. , and on Tues day, October 31st, at 6 p.m. I will now continue public presentations on this bill in accordance with the list of presenters before you. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I move that, for this committee, any presenter be permitted to have a

320 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 person of their choice translate their presentation into English. Mr. Chairperson: It has been moved by Mr. Maloway that– I move, for the committee, any presenters to be permitted to have a person of their choice to translate the presentation in English. The motion is in order. The floor is open for questions. Hon. Ralph Eichler (Minister of Agriculture): Just a clarification on the prepared motion that timelines will still be within the 10-minute presentation time. Mr.

Chairperson: Has–the motion was only done for the translator; it doesn't affect the amount of time. Each presenter has to –up to 10 minutes. Agreed? [Agreed] Shall the motion pass? Some Honourable Members: Pass. Mr. Chairperson: The motion is accordingly passed. Before we proceed with the presentations, we do have a number of other items and points of information to consider. First of all, there is only –anyone else in attendance would like to make a presentation this evening, please register with the staff in the entrance of the room.

Also, for the information for all presenters, while written versions of presentations are not required, if you are going to accompany your presentation with a written material, we ask that you provide 20 copies. And if you need help photocopying, please ask one of the staff in attendance. As well, in accordance to the rules, a time limit of 10 minutes be allocated to presenters, with five minutes allocated for questions from the committee members. If a presenter is not in attendance with their name is called, they will be dropped to the bottom of the list.

If the presenter is not in attendance when their name is called a second time, they will be removed from the presenters' list. Prior to proceeding with these public pre - sentations, I would like to advise members of the public regarding the process of speaking in committee. The proceedings of our meeting we –are recorded in order to provide a verbatim transcript. Each time everyone wishes to speak, whether it is an MLA or a presenter, I first have to say to –that person's name. This is a signal that the Hansard recorder can return the mic on or off. * (18:10) Bill 30–The Local Vehicles for Hire Act Mr.

Chairperson: Thank you for your patience, and we will now proceed with the public presentations. The first person on the list tonight is Chamkaur Brar, private citizen. Mr. Brar, do you have any materials to hand out? Okay, thank you. Okay, Mr. Brar, you can start with your presentation. Oh, just one second. Okay, we'll get everybody materials around. Mr. Chamkaur Br ar (Private Citizen) : Good evening, honourable Chairman and honourable– Mr. Chairperson: Just one second. Just one second. We'll just wait. Mr. Chamkaur Brar: Okay. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, you can go ahead. Mr.

Chamkaur Brar: Good evening, honourable Chairman and honourable members. My name is Chamkaur Singh Brar. I came in Canada with my parents in 1998. My sister sponsored me [inaudible] I start of my job as a janitorial cleaning. I worked very hard seven days a week, 15 hours of the day. I bought the house and sold my property back home and bought a taxi here. Now, I have two cars with Unicity. I have three kids, and they are studying in private schools. I want to give them a good education and values, and also I am helping my sister as well since she lost her husband.

She has two kids; both are going to university, and she also has taxi income. It will affect their financial situation because they have only taxi income. When I sold my taxi in 2007, I paid capital gains in 2007 and '08 year on $75,000, and I bought the other cab in 2010 with the price, $280,000. And I – in 2015, bought the –another cab for the price, $450,000. And I have –still have a loan; you see there, $197,000 in taxi. I bought a home 2005, only priced for 225. I still have a loan on my house, $225,000, you can see there.

Because I took a loan for the taxi against my home, if the Bill 30 will come, maybe my taxi will be valued at zero. It will affect my financial

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 321 situation. After working hard 20 days, I will come have a feeling I'm at same stage where I started my journey in Canada. I ask you question once. You guys have full-time jobs, on 20 years. Then the bill come and my job to be part time. What can we do? Where I go. You sent–throwing me out from the city. Where is my kids' future? Where my sister's kids' future? They don't have income. Can she do it? Where those promises are before the election, the PCs made? Where those promises are, level playing field all in the cab industry with that?

I met the–last year, I only put premium in the –in Victoria in a fundraising dinner from PC party. They said, don't worry, enjoy your evening. Uber can be come. Only they come on a level playing field. Where that promise at? Where I go? Where they're pushing to us? And I can't believe what can I–did, in the past, in 20 years, where is –where's my situation now. Feel like that me. It's while I talking about the Bill 30, if Bill 30 mean is you are pushing to us to the City and open the door for everyone and come and do business here. If–I asking you where the–why do you guys not doing the–like, a farmer?

Like, one farmer have one farm who –throwing two more, three more people over there. What can he do there? Where is his income? After two days, his income is $250 and throwing, like, 400 more cabs and Uber everything, income going to where? That' s the question I ask to all of the committee here. Where I go? Where does those guys are going? Where does those 1,200 families go? And 3,000 kids futures. Where they go? You pushing to us, leave the city. Why? I want replace this bill–and replace this bill and then that was before 2015. That's a means that's needed here. They don't need anything that's not needed here.

I requesting to all of you please drop this bill. Please replace and then people vote. I req uesting to all honourable Premier (Mr. Pallister), please listen to us. Is a 1,200 families' future. Please. That's all. Thank you, all of you. Mr. Chairperson: Well, thank you for you presentation, Mr. Brar. Now, we'll go for–does the minister want to have any questions–or, Mr. Maloway. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I want to thank you for your presentation.

You have indicated that you had some under - standing that while attending some Conservative Party fundraiser that you were promised a level playing f ield if Uber were to come. Like, who promised that and when did that happen? Mr. Chamkaur Brar: This in June 25, 2016, in Victoria Inn. Fundraising dinner for PC Party. I meet there to the honourable Premier. He said–he showing like the hand like that he said, don't worry, enjoy the evening. You guys don't worry. This all I was bringing for you–going here. Mr.

Maloway: Well, sir, you should know that, you know, on that side of the table are the Conservative ministers and MLAs, and you know they were elected with a very large majority of 40 members. But they all meet every day with the Premier and so they will be reporting back as to, you know, what is being said tonight and stuff. So they're the people that you have to convince to withdraw the bill. But it sounds like you really have a very, very good ally in the Premier if the –you're saying to me that the Premier on June 25, 2015 at Victoria Inn– [interjection] Yes, 2015. Floor Comment: Sixteen. Mr. Maloway: Sixteen.

Okay, at a Conservative Party fundraiser the Premier himself told you that he promised a level playing field if Uber were to come in. Are you saying that's a fact? Mr. Chamkaur Brar: Yes, I met the Premier with my–the board member and Unicity and Duffy, the fundraising dinner there last yea r in June, 25 –June 2016. I consulted about the Uber agreement so we like to have. Don't worry guys, don't worry, enjoy the evening. Uber can't be come here. Mr. Maloway: Were there any other people there with you when the Premier said this, when he made that promise? Mr. Chamkaur Brar: Yes.

This time with one of the PC members running with–in the –like Maples, Kaur Sidhu, he was with me and another thing, and also the Premier over there. Mr. Maloway: Were there any MLAs, any Conservative MLAs there with– * (18:20) Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Brar, Mr. Chamkaur Brar: He–the other MLA like our area like he meet me, but not with the Premier that

322 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 time. Jim [phonetic] Curry. Yes, he meet with me and also I helped him with the election, and he meet me always. Mr. Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): Thank you for coming tonight and sharing your story with us. Just a little more follow -up on this conversation you had with the Premier (Mr. Pallister) –can you make sure that the names of the people that may have heard this conversation are fully given to us so that we can follow up with them, or are they planning to be here to make presentations? Do you know that? Mr. Chamkaur Brar: I can't understand. Who's meet?

Who's–I can't understand the question, but– Mr. Lindsey: If possible, make sure the names that you just told us –make sure that the record reflects who they are. Mr. Chamkaur Brar: I don't recognize their names now. I don't recognize their names. It's the PC Party; they thinking a lot of people. I meet a couple of people. Mr. Maloway: I'm pretty pleased to hear all this information, because the fact of the matter is that everyone knows the Premier runs this government. Nothing happens in this government without the Premier's approval.

And so, the fact of the matter is that you were talking to the very best person you could at that PC fundraiser because he's the boss, and he says what bills pass and when they pass. And the question, now, I have is that you were talking to the head guy. You were doing better that night than you're doing here tonight. So, the question is, why do you think he would go and not honour his promise? Any idea why he would backtrack on that promise? Because that is a broken promise. Mr. Chamkaur Brar: Yes, I shocked.

I shocked then I starting on the news, and then they said on the news that the Taxicab Board withdraw all, and Bill 30 is come. I shocked. I said–I shout, I am taxi – driving taxi on that time. And customer say, what happen? I say, oh, no. I shocked, heard it on the news. I say, our Premier promise us –I'm sorry –our Premier's promise us then, and he say now, the Bill 30 came. Why? I'm shocked at that time. Hon. Jeff Wharton (Minister of Municipal Relations): Mr. Brar, thank you so much for your presentation tonight and also providing us with this information as well.

And I really appreciate you sharing that with us. You had mentioned–the member from Elmwood was asking you about what –allegedly, the Premier had promised you a level playing field. What would you–be your definition of a level pl aying field, Mr. Brar? Floor Comment: Level playing field? Mr. Wharton: Yes. Mr. Chamkaur Brar: Yes, it's like if the attacking about the concern over the taxi industry. And they showing, like, it's no–nobody come. Only they come, the level playing field. Nobody come. Mr. Wharton : Okay. Because I guess a level playing field can be perceived in many ways.

My understanding of a level playing field is simply if it means fair and competitive market for essentially all services including transportation servi ces, so a level playing field would recommend–obviously, a fair market would be a good start to make sure that the market is fair, it's competitive, where the industry at large has an opportunity to grow and thrive. That would be my kind of understanding of a fair say or, essentially, a fair playing field. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, this last question – Mr. Brar, you can go ahead. Mr. Chamkaur Brar: Yes, I have a question.

One guy is doing same way, like $1,200 insurance, and one guy doing $11,000. When are the se same? What's the –arrive there? You see, it's like $8,000, $9,000 difference. And also, the bill's not safety of the customer. Where the safety of the driver? Mr. Chairperson: Well, thanks, Mr. Brar. That's – wraps up the time question for the questions n ow, so we'll go on to the next presenter, and I will call on– Floor Comment: Thank you very much, gentlemen. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Presenter No. 2, Satnam Singh Bassra? Mr. Bassra, do you have materials that you want to hand out for the–for your presentation? Mr.

Satnam Singh Bassra (Private Citizen): Yes. Just on the safety. Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Well, you can go ahead with your presentation. Mr. Bassra: I driving in a few years already, about 34 years. Safety concern–a few word only. Okay, I driving taxi on Selkirk Avenue about long time, was 1979 or '80 and with no shield in back

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 323 behind me. Somebody hit me with a beer bottle behind me, and I think so, the safety is now it's very important. And a good thing in the Gary Filmon government came a few years ago they bring in a safety camera, safety shield and different things. Appreciate that one. And also, like, in before, two cab drivers killed. Gurnam Dhaliwal, and also Mr. Abdul. He beat up in Maryland Hotel and he's beat up very badl y. He's in a wheelchair. And I stopped working a few years ago. When I started Handi-Transit, I picked up Mr.

Abdul in the wheelchair in Windsor Park area. I'm very bad for him. I start crying that day for –I see Abdul. I see now I don't who's –anybody next my brother driving taxi for anybody, you know, brothers or sisters. I think the safety is very important. I see that maybe shield and everything is safety's first for any [inaudible] safety's first. Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Do you have any more – okay. Now, question from Minister Wharton. Mr. Wharton: Thank you, Mr. Brassa [phonetic], for your presentation this evening. Thank you for taking the time to come out this evening as well.

You had mentioned safety, and, of course, safety is an area that we're very concerned about as well and we've been hearing quite a bit over the last couple of nights about safety. Just a question for you, sir, if I may: If this bill was to pass, essentially what would be your view on how safety would change if it went from the current regime to the City of Winnipeg? Mr. Bassra: Yes. Taxi, like in Winnipeg, it's very bad. I don't think, like, any driver go on the Main Street and the Northern Hotel and the [inaudible]. I can do my taxi, go pick up 2 o'clock in the fare in the Northern Hotel and Yale Hotel.

I don't think anybody go pick up fare at 2 o'clock in Northern Hotel and Yale Hotel. Any other company I think so. I driving 25 years night shift. I know the business in the North End. The safety shield are very important and any other company [inaudible] taxi industry. Safety is very important. Mr. Wharton : And I agree totally. Safety is very important, you know. Obviously, the right equipment that you currently have is exactly what you need, absolutely. But what I'm saying is, though, if I may, Mr.

Bassra, if tomorrow now you're under the City of Winnipeg under their bylaw and regime, how would that change what you're currently doing today tomorrow morning in safety? Mr. Bassra: What's with safety tomorrow's safety, tomorrow same thing we need tomorrow same thing like in today. Also, like, in my family, I just also make them whole family dependent on my taxi, and my mother. I used to be out working seven days a week; now I work only three days a week. My taxi brings–[interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Bassra, could I get you to move closer to the microphone? * (18:30) Mr. Bassra: I'm sorry.

My taxi bring food and bread on my table. Only I'm sick man; I've got a [inaudible]. Even I been sick I didn't collect any money from gove rnment, and myself and my taxi bring money, a little bit, my driver work for me. Even my family are dependent on my taxi. Two drivers, they work for me, and also for myself. What if tomorrows–my taxi can break, I need take–where I supposed to go. I go kill myself? Everybody just jump in the river? Yes, Sir. What I'm supposed to do tomorrow? I–last few years of working, I –all the money I spent on my kid. I give it good and– education, my kid. My son working.

He got –he working at chartered accounting. Now, he school separate. My daughter, she got her own job. She working in the nursing. I don't know, tomorrow nursing–also very bad now. I don't know, tomorrow she going to lose job. Mr. Maloway: I want to thank you very much for your presentation. You should know that this particular bill says no promises on any shields or cameras or strobes or anything like that in the bill. Not only is there no safety in the bill, but they taking away your right to have compensation.

And in Australia, every state in Australia has –dealing with this issue, they're providing compensation to the taxi drivers and owners. And, in fact, the State of Victoria is offering $100,000 per cab for the first cab, $50,000 for the second one. And there's a hardship fund included in there, as well. Total of $494 million. They're a government, just like these guys. Just the same. And here, they put a clause that says no compensation. Like, at least if they would eliminate that. We're going to try to take that out. But if you could at least eliminate that, that would allow you to sue.

324 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 Mr. Bassra: They don't listen to me. I do–like, and I go kill myself. This all I working, driving taxi last 35 years. I told you, I get nothing now. I get none. I got no job. Nothing. I can't work, like, can't work now anymore. Ask me with doctor. I have a C6 and C4 surgery already, my neck. I have three plates in my neck. Mr. Chairperson: That concludes the question time, five minutes. So I want to thank you, Mr. Bassra, for your presentation. Okay, we'll call the next presenter. Last name is– Mr. Brar. Amanpreetpal Brar? Thank you. Mr.

Brar, do you have any materials that you want to hand out for the presentation? Okay, you can go–continue with your presentation, Mr. Brar. Mr. Amanpreetpal Singh Brar (Private Citizen): Honourable Manitoba legislative committee, the government of Man itoba saying we are just giving the power to the municipality to regulate the taxis, limousines and extra. They are misleading it. It is not the same bill. They are opening the doors for the Uber taxi. Okay, the city will regulate the same. Okay, the taxis and Uber taxi. But they can't regulate their – Uber's fare because that's another misleading.

Because the Uber always charge what they want. Rush hour? Different fares. Storm? Different. City can't regulate their fares. So how come the City regulate the Uber, too? Okay. There's another misleading. Okay. If you look economically, small business is always the backbone of local economy. The impact of this bill, you get result after 10, 15 years. Look at that China, even ban on Facebook even. Anything that a ffect their economy, and now, what happen, Amazon, like, these all the stores. Sears, running out of business. Is right? Kill our economy. Okay.

Okay, I understand there's a $500,000 deficit of Taxicab Board. I know that. I am worried about that, too. But I have some recommendations for you. Like, how can be turned profit. Just make some changes in the Taxicab Board. They have three Escape Fords, cost money, $40,000 there sitting. They don't need trucks cost insurance, expensive. They need only one for patrol. Call the cabs there for inspections. If they need anyone to check, just phone in the office. Call there, save money. Let's do the paperless–saves a little bit more money. Okay, so, charge on the transforming the licence.

Every year, 15 to 20 licence transfer from one owner to another owner, and they can put the 5 per cent on that. They can get, like, 15, 20. They get $100,000. Make, like–they can create $100,000 from that. Okay. And every year, they can do, like, put more 15 cars like a lottery system for the bid, and every taxi transferrable, they could easily sell thirty to fifty thousand dollars, and they can make $500,000 every year. In 10 years, 150 more cabs on the road, like, and 300 full -time jobs, because 150 to 300 full -time jobs. And they create, like, in $1 million in 10 years.

Like, selling $30,000 put the bad like 15. They can put a dollar in the metre surcharge. And every cab driver approximately 1,000 trips in a year, so make create $1,000 and 500 cabs can create $500,000 in a year. A nd Taxicab Board not going in the deficit. It's in the profit. Like, in one year, it's $1 million. Okay. There's two benefit to put surcharges on the transforming the licence. One, like, they can get 5,000 if they sell 100,000 cab, $500,000 in the –and 15 cabs are like around $1,000 and like, you know?

Oh, sorry–$100,000 in the–and plus the price will be stay stable of the taxis because if there's a fee surcharge–transforming surcharge, they can make $100,000 every year. Fifteen, 20 cabs always [inaudible] and selling 15 cabs, another –like, you know? Okay. Look at the advantage of if this bill doesn't pass. Look at the advantage: make $1 million in a year profit to the Taxicab Board. Keep full -time jobs–1,000 full -time jobs –out of 2,000, 1,000 full - time jobs. And 150 creating another 300 more jobs in 10 years–full-time jobs–300.

Plus keeping the office, Unicity office, 40 people working and provincial people work in the Taxicab Board. They can save their jobs too. Okay. All the jobs–you know how big impact of saving full-time jobs, you know, and the economy. I understand there's $364 million in the Manitoba deficit. It will affect a lot, improve the economy. What is the disadvantage if, suppose, we pass this bill? I'll tell you what is the disadvantage. This advantage of this bill is 400 families, they will bankrupt. They have a lot of loans. And 400 families, they will go burden on Manitoba government, financially, medically.

And some of them probably wasting money left. Some of them probably wasting

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 325 money. And there's another disadvantage: full -time jobs, they probably going to the part -time jobs. A lot of jobs cut into full -time when the Uber came out goes into part-time jobs. And, you know, government –Manitoba govern- ment adviser even did not consult wit h the taxi industry. They have a lot of loans on their cabs. Look at here, how much loans. This is all loans on the cabs, and they will get bankrupt. And the burden is on the government. And they didn't consult.

They don't know how much–because, probably, that's why he didn't get the right advice, because he don't know there's cabs–there's a lot of loans. * (18:40) And this way, you can solve the problem in profitable. But when you pass the bill, Manitoba government will be going taking 400 families' burden on there. Does it make sense? Even I'm a taxi driver, I won't, like, still doing favours, like, how can cut in, changes in the Taxicab Board, how can make a profit and how we can, and nothing is there. It's not fair, like with Uber. Look at some countries; they are even banning, like, you know.

It's not even good for the economy, our economy's not that cheap: 764 millions on Manitoba. You see effect even more on our economy. It's not bringing any money or anything. It's affect our economy. Yes, when we get in the good economy, no loan on Manitoba, then this a different story, like, you know. And you know, 400 people bankrupt. Look at here. This is the big loans on the cabs. And this –and another–they saying it's a fair, like it's a fair rule.

No; one is paying $1,000 insurance or $2,000 in a year; one is paying $10,000 insurance, over $10,000 and plus all the expensive and everything, taxi insurance, safety, camera, everything. How much cost? You know how much cost to run the one cab? Office fees, administration fees, airport fees. And these companies, they easily get bankrupt or maybe even nobody even buy them. Who'd suffer? Who–you–we, Manitoba, just take care of Manitoba people. Like, and let's prove that we care Manitobans. Safety plus indigenous people. They come because they can't use the service because, like, they're so–that's our part.

Like, we have to–Manitoba government have to pay too because they won't depend–I talked to so many people with, like, I always in the North End; I say Uber. O h, we can't take that, Sir, we have to call a taxi. Because the prepaid Mastercard, credit card, and they –so, this way, you can go into profit, solving everything, problem solving and everything, like, you know, and– Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Brar, you have one more minute left. Mr. Amanpreetpal Singh Brar : That's okay, I'm done. Mr. Chairperson: Done? Okay. We'll go with–on to questions, and Mr.–Minister Wharton has a question. Mr. Wharton : Thank you, Mr.

Chair, and thank you, Mr. Sodhi [phonetic], for your presentation. Floor Comment: Oh, sir, can you speak loudly? I can't– Mr. Wharton : Thank you so much for your pre - sentation tonight. Obviously, you've done your homework and research and you know your business very well. I'm a small -business owner as well, have been for over 30 years, and I can appreciate the work that you've put into crunching the numbers, and I thank you for that. Question I have for you– I have a couple of questions for you, a couple of comments. You had mentioned about the l icences again, and you'd thrown a couple of numbers around.

There seemed to be a wide range. The last couple of nights we've been hearing the value of licences: $90,000, 120, 400, $500,000. Why such a discrepancy in the value of the licence when you transfer or purchase amongst, I guess, yourselves? Mr. Amanpreetpal Singh Brar: Sir, because if the Taxicab Board, they charge the fees transfer, I mean, fees like any fees on that. Like, we bought the houses, like five –you know, it can even keep lower the price s on the –because I've heard of –because so many up and down licence transforming here, here and there.

Like, you know, they can save and then the price will be also probably less, because there's the fees from that, like we house. We don't buy one house and another house, another house because they have to pay six, seven thousand dollars just to waste, like, right. Mr. Wharton : So I guess to follow up on that, you're right. I mean, you don't buy four or five houses, absolutely not. But you had mentioned about no, I guess, consultation. You weren't consulted, the industry wasn't consulted, is that correct?

326 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 Floor Comment: I have a hearing problem. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Brar. Mr.–oh, sorry, Minister Wharton. Mr. Wharton: Sorry, I'll speak up a bit. Sorry, can you hear me now? Okay. You had mentioned in your earlier comments that you –the industry and you weren't consulted. Is that correct? Mr. Amanpreetpal Singh Brar : I really don't understand. Mr. Chairperson: Oh, you haven't heard it? Minister Wharton. Mr. Wharton: Okay, I'll try again. Was there any consultation done? You had said there wasn't any that you're aware of from government? Consultation? Mr.

Chairperson: Mr. Eichler, you want to just – Mr. Eichler, do you want to ask– Mr. Wharton: He might not hear me. Mr. Chairperson: He might not hear Minister Wharton. Hon. Ralph Eichler (Minister of Agriculture): Sure. Mr. Wharton : Thank you. Identify himself – [interjection] Mr. Amanpreetpal Singh Brar: No, just my own research. Mr. Wharton: Oh, okay, okay. So, just for the record, just wanted to be clear because this has come up again over the last couple of nights.

In 2015, the former NDP government commissioned a report by Meyers Norris Penny to essentially do a comprehensive review of the taxicab industry in Manitoba. So that was the former government, the NDP government that com - missioned that report. That report went out into the public, and the public responses were overwhelming. Over 10,000 responses, including 500 telephone interviews and 9,200 online responses. There was a lot of consultation in the process.

The NDP started the process in 2015 and, you know, I can tell you that we also met my former –my colleague, Minister Clarke, had also met with Duffy's and Unicity as well in their office and had very lengthy discussions and follow-up, as well. So there was some consultation done, just for the record for yourself, sir. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Brar, do you have anything to add? Mr. Amanpreetpal Singh Brar : Because according–like, you mean because little population increasing. Like, I don't mean like 15, little bit less. But I just–it's again, the revenue. How we can get the revenue.

Like, how can we can handle, like, so I just. That's why I just recommend. Mr. Maloway: Thank you for your presentation. Minister's talking about –and we heard this yesterday, too–about a survey that was done two or three years ago. And they say they surveyed 10,000 people. Well, surveyed them about what? Did they ask about how fair it was to treat the taxicab industry the way they are right now? Did they ask them is it fair not to compensate, to just take their licences and drive the people out of business? Did they ask that question in the surveys? No, not at all.

You know, what just amaz es me is the Conservative Party claims to be the party of small business. And, in fact, most of the MLAs over there are involved or have been involved in small business. And, you know, at some level, they got to know that this is wrong, that you can't treat people this way. You cannot take an investment –if you own a house and the city's going to build a road through your front yard, they will compensate– Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Maloway, you –Mr. Maloway, do you have a question? We were running out of time, here. Mr. Maloway: I'd like to–your comments on that. Mr.

Amanpreetpal Singh Brar: Yes, that's –we're seeing misleading all the bills and everything. It's not–the government is not totally unfair, because they did not even consult how much loan they have on their taxis, how much–how –like, you know, how they will suffer and how will it work. Because they just–I don't know how –they not even thinking what they, like, doing. They don't even, like– Mr. Chairperson: The five minutes is up for the question that–for this presentation. So, Mr. Brar, I'm going to thank you for your presentation. The next person on the list is Randhir Sodhi. Can I get–if he can come up?

Randhir Sodhi? No. 4? Oh, that was–[interjection]

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 327 So we're going to be dropping–we're going to drop Mr. Sodhi to the bottom. And–Iqbal –Iqbal Gill is going to be –Iqbal Gill is the next person on the list. A private citizen. Mr. Gill, we'll pass the material around. Mr. Gill, you can start with your pre sentation. Okay, sure. Okay. Mr. Iqbal Gill (Private Citizen ): Do you want to wait for material? Good evening, everyone. My name is– Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Gill, go ahead. Mr. Iqbal Gill: Okay, it's all good. Good evening, everyone. Is–my name is Iqbal Gill, and I came to Canada in around 2000.

And my profession is –back home is–I'm the mechanical engineer myself. When I came to the Canada, in 2000, I'm talking about –I'm looking for the job almost six months. No job. I don't know you can call a fortune or infortune. But my friend is recommend me to drive cab. Six month, I'm sitting at home eating from my family's food or whatever you can say. Then find the job as a taxi. Didn't choose my profession, but I have no choice. * (18:50) And I started and I did it with the profession. Even I'm not the type to the driving cab, or I don't have the professional backing or anything like that, but I did it.

I made good money to survive my family, to feed them and feed myself and grown- up, and after five, six years, still couldn't find a good job because they have to send me the three years or four years back to the school to do the same job, whatever I'm doing back home. And I'm asking you guys if you can answer me after that. If you study for six years in the college or university, and you're doing the same thing, and you did the test, and you passed the test, and they're telling you to go back and do the three years again for the same thing whatever you did, is that fair?

But I did it to profession through the taxi, and I did it, and I did almost 17, and I'm still doing it. I don't want to drive a cab as a profession and get assaulted every single night on the road, to get the F-words from the customers or everything. They're drunk; they do–you couldn't even bel ieve it what they do to you when you sitting on the passengers, and I'm the driving–not for the money sometimes –or what–there is money involved to feed your family. But now is –I passed you all –sorry, I'm not speaking on whatever I give to you is all the safety. That's my main concern, is safety.

Is that fair, is now–in 2001 is the Mr. Deol is killed. I came in that time is–just three months, and I started driving that time. And my cousin or my wife is telling me, are you sure you want to go drive? Just got that guy's killed in a few days ago, but I didn't have no choice. But I still did it. I survived. I got many times to being stabbed, called cops many times. Nobody shows on the time. And the cops comes, and they ask you, are you safe? Yes, I am safe. I' m standing in front of you. But did I face safe from inside?

Nobody answer, and they ask you, you want to give to the – whoever attacked on you, you want assault or not? You want to do the paperwork or not? What kind of answer is that to the cops, we're that weak. We–all the taxi drivers getting every single day those kind of things. And you guys talking about the Uber now is–I'm not the favouring the Uber. I'm not the favouring the–it's totally up to you guys. You guys going to decided what are you going to do after that, but I just tell you the one thing I heard every day from outside: they're going to create the jobs. How they going to create the jobs?

Sixteen hundred families, each family has three person, I say, minimum, and you can count. Where they going to go? I have my taxi, and even I start from 2000. I still owe my money on the –to pay the loans. In two– 17 years, I still didn't get paid off my taxi, because even my car –my–I have the house; they have the loan, and I have taxi; they have the loan. If I get my money, it's going to be cut off more than half. Who's going to pay? Where's the money going to come from? My cousin, they came, two of them. They couldn't find a job for –I, six months; same thing, they didn't. And they bought the car.

They don't want to drive. One is a computer engineer guy. One is a good family like the farmer. But they don't have the– no choice. I ask–give the answer to the respected. They asked, why'd they spend that much money? Because no jobs in Winnipeg or in Manitoba, you can see. If we have the jobs, why don't we do the jobs? We can do the better jobs. But I'm not ashamed to– I'm doing the taxi driver. Even my kids say, Dad, you are a–I'm proud of it because it's going to feed my family. I have lots of things to say. Now is to say–create the jobs. I'm going to come on there. Now is –Uber

328 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 is–they're doing the survey, and they're doing the fake city. They made the fake city. I hope everybody heard about the fake city. The Uber is doing– Uber made the fake city in the Pittsburgh, Almono. And they're doing the survey. They're doing the –like, the self-driving cars, self -driving trucks, Uber. But if somebody wants to look on there, the Google – you can google, it's the October 18th in the news. They're doing those self -driving cars su rvey in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, or something.

They have the mannequins going on the roads, and they're checking they're getting hit or not hit. If they creating a job. No, I think as Uber, feeding the family today –I can give you one example. Same thing. Like, I'm sitting in the ship, and now they're my coworkers, they're going to start making holes in the ships. Same thing we do now. The Uber people can–like, whoever going to drive for them? They gonna drive good right now. They going to make money m aybe, maybe not.

But one day the Uber going to make the business out of them, and they going to kill their jobs because they going to pull the self-driving cars on the roads. And it's happening right now. Who's going to be responsible for that time? I have the question for everybody here. Now you killing us, okay, all the industries not making–we making effort money–or, good money right now. But maybe we make the same money, and now we driving two shifts in the day. Like the day and night.

If I'm not going to make enough money, is the night driver or the night cousin, whoever, he's going to drive for me if he's not going to make enough money? Then I have to drive myself. Now I'm putting 12 hours a day. Now I have to put the 15 hours a day, then. We came here for the good future, not for the dead future. I like to answer for, if you–if somebody can answer for me for those. And the shields. Shields is mean is for safety; 2001–why we put the shield? Same time they put the shield, and we spend lot of money on the cameras, on the shields. Now the sudden no. Is Uber going to come for the big corporation?

We don't need any safeties. Are we going the forward, or we going the behind? I just like to know, I don't know. Is–my wife ask me every day, if it's the sh ield can now going to be there, are you going to drive still? I'm not going to let you go into work. My kids told me every day, Daddy, I hear all those kinds of things are going to happen. Are you going to go into work? Are you going to come alive? I understand, make the decision sitting on the bench and –to very easy. But, when you go on the roads, then you know how hard is it. And I like to make the comment on the MNP.

They did the survey pretty good, sitting on the tables, asking everybody oh, you doing this okay. But, when you asked answer, you ask, sir, do they consult? Yes , they did consult, but when you ask the question, we don't know. Who's getting answer? Maybe City, maybe the municipal, we don't know. Same thing, s ir. You ask me the why is the dif ferent is to the City? I'm listening to the question. I tell you what's different with the City, and I [inaudible] presentation, but I still like to –it is the big different. City doesn't even make allow–rules or anything. We don't know what they're going to put it in.

That's why we worried. That's why we came to your door. Mr. Chairperson: You have one minute. Mr. Iqbal Gill: That's why we came to your door. Your act is totally open. Is nothing say about the transfer or anything at all. It's a cancel. Y our business licence going to be cancelled. I like to know who's going to tell me on this where it's not going to be cancelled, and that–at the 10(

a) it say cancel on it. And that on –at the bottom it say if you go –10(a), No. 1–and if you go to the 10(

a) to the bottom is a three columns. It does say if it's been expired or cancelled, your business licence is not activated. And I like to tell you how many business licences in there–involve in there. I don't know which business licence you're talking about. One is licence we get from the City. That's called business licence from the City. And the second business licence you get from the Taxicab Board. That's the business licence they talking about, the taxicab business licence. And the third one– Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Gill, your time is up, and I want to thank you very much for your presentation.

So we have now five minutes for questions, and I'll have Mr. Isleifson to ask the first question. Mr. Len Isleifson (Brandon East): Mr. Gill, thank you for your presentation. It's very informative. You make some very valid points, and I'm going to kind of start off where you were ending because that's where my question comes in. You make some very valid concerns about safety. You talked a lot about Uber coming in. I will

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 329 note, though, that throughout Bill 30 there is not a mention of Uber, because that's not what this bill is about. You talked briefly about the powers going from t he government to the City of Winnipeg, and that's what I want to talk about, because you do have some valid points. * (19:00) So, when we –when this bill, if it becomes enacted, your licence to run a taxi and your licence through the City of Winnipeg will all remain in force through the City of Winnipeg. So, whether they bring in Uber or not, that will be a discussion that they have.

So my question to you is: On your safety issue, on your Uber issues, have your started any type of dialogue with your local city councillor on what the City might do if this passes? Mr. Iqbal Gill: Yes, we did, sir. We went to all the councillors' doors. You not going to believe which door we didn't knock in. We knock every single door whatever we can. Even before–in the Uber , we knocked the premier door before election, and he promised us it's with a fair field playing games. He's n ot only the Premier ( Mr. Pallister) there. Ron Schuler is there; Cathy Cox is there; Jon Reyes is there.

Andrew Micklefield is there. Brian Pall ister is the Premier –is there, and is not one person; is we are a hundred people there sitting in the hall and when he making a conversation to us, and maybe we are the recorded that one, too. If somebody want to prove, maybe we have to look for the proof that we provided to you when he said it there. Mr. Maloway: And I want to thank you for a great presentation. I really have to get back to what you just said about this meeting with the Premier and Ron Schuler and other people. Like, when was this? Where was it? Who was there, and what do you think that they promised you?

Mr. Iqbal Gill: Okay, thank you for that, but I can't tell you exactly date. I can dig it for you and I can find the date because it just came into my mind when somebody speaking about it. And I know it happened before election, is on Pembina, is the place called is Royal Punjab, and I don’t think so is that exists anymore. But there, that there, is we've been the – promises made. Mr. Maloway: Could you just explain this a little further? It was a –the meeting was called to discuss the taxi industry with you? Or you called the meeting? They called the meeting? Who called the meeting and who was there? Mr.

Iqbal Gill: I don't know who called–sorry. I don't know who called that meeting, but I'm –I gone there's. I got informed somehow, but I don't want to make the promise–or not going to make any words if I don't know. Mr. Mohinder Saran (The Maples): Yes, okay. Thanks for coming over here. And, okay, I think the government is running away from the real issue. The real issue is: Will government is ready to pay compensation? And, if the government pays compensation, then the –you mind if that's moved to the City? If that jurisdiction, that responsibility moves to the City but provided government pays the compensation?

You will be–[interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Gill. Mr. Iqbal Gill: Sorry, no–I thought maybe you're not going to say my name. Thank you. Yes, for sure, we like to. We love to do that–not the love to; that's supposed to be happen, that time, that way, because we spend, because –you asked about the compensation. We don't want the compensation before; we want to work hard. We are the hard-worker people. But, if it's Uber cannot come or whoever you're going to bring it there, it should be the same fares. Pay ours –our price whoever spend that much money. Bring the Uber; we don't mind it.

But can I make the–another comment on–but it's totally separate, please, if you guys allow me, for once a minute. Mr. Chairperson: Yes, go ahead, Mr. Gill. Mr. Iqbal Gill: Just Uber and the taxi is a big differ right now. Is MNP report says 600–no, 550 car cabs on the road. But I'd like to tell you exactly 652 cabs on the road. I don't know where you got the figures is 410; 410 is only standard cabs, and is 86, is the handi vans, and 105 is the limos and 120 is the seasonal cars, when it's the busy time. And the 51 is accessible vans, comes with a meter. That means –it's 410 plus is 51, plus is 86.

Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Thanks you, Mr . Gill. Your five minutes of questions are up. So thank you very much for your presentation. Okay. [interjection] No. Sorry–yes. Thank you, Mr. Gill. Yes. Thank you.

330 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 So, next person we'll call is No. 6 on the list, is Indergit Singh. Is he here today? Mr. Singh. Number 6. Mr. Singh, do you have anything to hand out to the –for your –on your presentation or you're just going to present? Mr. Indergit Singh (Private Citizen): No. Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Mr. Singh, you can go ahead with your presentation. Mr. Indergit Singh: Okay. I came in '81, so 14 years I have a factory job, then after have–got the layoff, then I got the licence, then I own the cab. Then–I–all put money on the cab.

Then after a couple of years, we bought the house. We got the mortgage on the house. I have three kids. They go to school. One is going to university. Other thing, like, is–it's pretty hard to, like, give the payments, like, the stuff, because I working like 15, 16 hours every day or something. Because everything came –Uber came here, then it will be a big problem for the payments, like, the stuff. Other things, like, we have, like, driver safety –you know, like shields, cameras and training, like that stuff. Then strobe lights, like, the stuff; the other thing, they have nothing like that.

If they came, then it should be like same insurance, like same like safety inspection, like that stuff. That's it. Mr. Chairperson: Are you –you're finished your presentation, Mr. Singh? Mr. Indergit Singh: Yes, I'm done. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation, and we'll move on to questions. And does anybody have any questions? Mr. Lindsey: Thank you for coming out tonight, and I know for people to come to a committee like this it's quite daunting to stand up in front of people and make that kind of presentation.

So I really appreciate you coming and doing this, as well as everybody else that's here. Let's just talk a little bit about your thoughts on the safety of cab drivers going forward. If Uber or some other ride -sharing thing comes into being, are you concerned that the same level of protection for drivers may not be there? Mr. Indergit Singh: Yes, sure, like, it should be – okay, it should be, like, safety reason, like – everybody should be, like, shields, cameras and then usual training, like the stuff, strobe light. Because otherwise–like, one time, like, I take a cab, then I have the customer.

That time, we don't have the shields. He punched me on the neck, then he grabbing on the, like, my [inaudible] cord, pulling like th at. He said, give –the–all the money or something. And I get out, then I call, like, the police. Then after, police came after like two hours or something and they took my taxi. I driving for somebody else. They take the taxi away. Then next day, like, they find that guy, because it was dispatched trip, so that they–I know where we picked them up. Then they make the report. Then they said, like, you can, like, recognize the man? I said, yes.

Then we go to the court, and then that guy, that time, they have mu stache. Then after, they cut the mustache. But I don't know what they did after, like, that stuff. Mr. Lindsey: I appreciate that. Thank you very much. We've heard the government talk about –well, nobody's saying that that's not going to be. We're just going to take –and the Province isn't going to dictate what the rules are. It'll be up to the City. And I'm not sure if you're aware that some municipalities, cities outside of Winnipeg already make the rules for taxis. I know where I come from they do.

And not one taxi has a shield, most of the cars are suspect. And so I just want to get your thoughts on – without any guarantee that the City will legislate or mandate the same level of protections for cab drivers as are what are presently there with the shields and the cameras and all the strobe lights. Do you think it would be a giant step backwards to not have those things mandated by the rules that somebody can come in and drive a car that doesn't have that? Is that going to be fair to people that do have it? * (19:10) Mr.

Indergit Singh: No, it should be, like, safety reason for everybody, not like me or –it should be Uber or anybody, Lyft or any company came, then it should be the same rules, you know. If it's a red light, then it's a red light for everybody not for some person. And then s omebody have red light or they have green light or same thing like that. It's–it should be same for everybody, especially, like, cameras. You know, sometimes somebody forget in the taxi back seat or something like luggage or something.

At least, they can check with the–like, which car have or something and then they report and we go to the police station or something. They check it out, like which one has it. If there are Uber or anybody, other

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 331 company, they have, like, no camera, how they going to find tha t out? Like, they have an honest driver, you know, he –they get them back or not. Or purse, like that, sometime mostly people lost a purse or cellular phone. They have the company, then we just to give to our company, and then, you know, they get from there–or they get them back, like that person, if he know. Mr.

Mohinder Saran: Okay, I would like to ask, this level playing field, government quite often being used and to me a level playing field will be if Uber also have to buy taxi on the ongoing price. And they also have all the safety features you already have. Will that will be a level playing field or only will be level playing field just as safety but on price, still your price will go down. So what do you think about that? Mr. Indergit Singh: I think that should be like lots of people, they spend like $500,000 or $400,000, if they don't pay nothing, like, the –how we going to compare with that person?

They should be have some like [inaudible] too, you know. They should be some price too, like licence p rice. If they have just buy the car, then licence fee, then that's not make sense. All their life, somebody spent, like $5,000– $500,000, then other one have the fee, like, fee licence, nobody can compete with them. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Singh. It's –the five-minute questions are up. So thank you very much for your presentation. Okay, next on the list, we'll call No. 7– [interjection] Mr. Maloway. Mr.

Maloway: We have three students in the audience, so I wonder if we coul d have unanimous agreement among the committee to allow the students to be moved ahead because they have to go– get up early for school in the morning. One is No. 133, Himat Dhaliwal, and the second one is 187, which is Jattan Dhaliwal, and the third one is 186, Harjot Dhaliwal. Mr. Chair? Mr. Chairperson: Does the committee agree to have the three people presented by Mr. Maloway to be put on the top of the list? [Agreed] So we'll call No. 133, Himat Singh Dhaliwal– No. 33, Himat Singh Dhaliwal. Is he here? We'll wait. We're here 'til 12. Mr.

Dhaliwal, do you have any materials that you want to hand out to the committee? Okay, Mr. Dhaliwal, you can go ahead on your presentation. Mr. Himat Singh Dhaliwal (Private Citizen): First of all, thanks for gi ving me this chance to talk here. So I'm not going to waste too much time talking about the facts that we've been talking about the last two days. [interjection] Okay, better? Okay, so I wasn't going to waste time talking about the facts that we've been t alking about these last few days. Personally, this affects me because my dad has been driving a taxi since 1994, exactly.

And we're three brothers, so he's been paying for us through university at the moment. And it's been about 20 years or more that he's been driving a taxi. So our whole family's income depends on it. And, currently, there's more than 400 taxis out there, and it's drove during day and night, which makes it 800 families that depend on taxis right now for the income. With Uber coming there , the investments that they made for around $500,000, which was the price of a taxi, at a point, would go to zero with the introduction of Uber.

The thing with Uber is that they have a competitive advantage of coming into the market, because the costs that normal taxi drivers have to pay for safeties insurance, which I heard–that they have a liability coverage of up to $5 million for Unicity. And, with Uber, they have none of those costs, which give them an advantage to provide service at a lower cost, which would drive taxi services out of business. If you go online and search about the number of incidents that happened with Uber, you will get lists of them.

Recently, in 2014, there was a seven- year-old girl that was killed by an Uber driver in San Francisco. That was when Uber was introduced. And not many steps have been taken to take care of those situations. Moreover, with Uber, if something like that happens, there is no liability.

Whereas, what's – with taxis, we have liability insurance, which would– to handle those things. So my question is: Why Uber and other transport companies? It's a trend that is working out in major cities. Recently, Uber has been taken out of London– banned in London. It's banned in BC. There's a reason it's banned.

332 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 The thing with Uber, also, is that if there's bad weather, they charge you extra money for that.

Whereas, with taxis, it's a constant rate. So–and another thing is, if we introduce Uber, it should be with the parallel pricing of taxis, which people have already pai d so much money just to get into the business. So, with introducing Uber, we're increasing the number of cars out there, do–in the same business, which is not needed. We're finding a solution for a problem that doesn't even exist at the moment. The numbe r of taxis have already been in - creasing in the past few years. Just to go–just to provide the service at a better rate.

So I would just like to conclude saying that, with the introduction of Uber and dissolving the board, we're trying to solve a problem that's not even there. In result, we're creating problems instead of solutions. That's it. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Dhaliwal. And, Mr. Lindsey has a question. Mr. Lindsey: Thank you for coming out and sharing your thoughts on this whole bill. And, really, what you're talking about is your family's ability to earn a living that will be impacted by whether it's Uber or some other ride -sharing company that comes into being.

If the rules aren't the same for every comp any that's offering a taxi -like business, regardless what they call themselves, then it's not fair. So, really, what you want to see is something that says that whatever's been in place for current taxi drivers like your dad, to keep him safe, to keep the fares proper, you want to see those same protections built in if some other ride-sharing thing comes into being. But, really, that's not what the whole ride -sharing thing is all about, is it? Mr.

Himat Singh Dhaliwal: Yes, if we put those same aspects into other taxis that they want to come into the market–what we also have to consider is the fact that the investments made by taxi drivers, such as Unicity, they're going to zero in a way, because at this moment, from what I heard, it was $400,000 to $500,000. With Uber coming to market, even with those safety measures, those prices are going down. The market's still the same, but the number of companies providing the service increases. So the income goes down, the costs are still high for the taxi drivers ,

whereas for Uber the costs are down and income goes high for them. Mr. Lindsey: Thank you for clarifying that with me. I'll admit I've –certainly don't know as much about this issue as I'm sure you do, because you live it every day, right. So, if this gove rnment is bound and determined that they're going to bring in legislation that allows ride-sharing companies, would it be fair to say, then, that they should also introduce legislation, or at least remove the part of the legislation that says that current taxi companies won't be compensated for what they're going to lose?

You'd like to see that part removed and compensation available for those taxi companies, again, to keep it fair. * (19:20) Mr. Himat Singh Dhaliwal: Compensation should not be negotiable. It's –people that bought taxis here come from back home by selling their land. And that–they put that investment into their taxis. So, without those –that 'compersation', we're robbing them of their money. And it's just a total waste. Mr. Greg Nesbitt (Riding Mountain): Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal.

Are you aware that this bill does not address Uber, that it's only to transfer the regulating of the industry to the City of Winnipeg, which is like most major cities across Canada? Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Dhaliwal, go ahead. Mr. Himat Singh Dhaliwal: That's just a direct way for Uber to come into the city. The issue we're trying to address is that the number of taxis is going to increase with the same marketplace. I –personally, this affects me because my dad has to put three of his sons through university. With those same costs, his income is going to go down.

He couldn't make it here today because he came home after working a 12-hour shift just to provide for us. Mr. James Allum (Fort Garry-Riverview): Thank you for co ming tonight. That was a excellent presentation, I have to tell you. So I just want to follow up on your –are you currently in university now? [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Dhaliwal, go ahead. Mr. Himat Singh Dhaliwal: Yes, at the Asper School of Business right now.

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 333 Mr. Allum: And then–thank you, Mr. Chair –and your brothers are also in university now? Mr. Himat Singh Dhaliwal: Yes, one's pursuing dentistry, and the other one's in accounting. Mr. Allum: So it's quite ironic that down the hall there's a committee meeting just like this that's going to raise the tuition on all of you, and at the same time, in this room, they're going to put your family out of business. Do you think that's fair? Mr. Chairperson: I just want to bring back the relevance of this committee room here. Mr. Allum: I just did. Mr.

Chairperson: Okay, Mr. Dhaliwal, go ahead. Mr. Himat Singh Dhaliwal: I understand that. Both of my brothers were here today against Bill 31. It' s the same thing. We're going to be paying more with our house income going down. In a way, both these bills affect us: Bill 30 and Bill 31. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, Mr. Lindsey, we have one more question. Mr. Lindsey: Thank you, again. It's interesting that really what we're talking about is undermining small, local businesses, right? That's what–your parents run a taxi; that's their business.

And here's a government that supposedly is all about business and yet they're trying to undermine this business in the potential of attracting some other ride-sharing thing, that without providing anything to make that playing field level. Is that a fair statement? Would you agree? Mr. Himat Singh Dhaliwal: One of the first things we learned is that we should provide local businesses to grow instead of other corporations that come from foreign countries into your country.

With doing that, we're actually, like giving them a gateway, just to come here and open their own businesses, which undermines the business of more than 800 families here. Mr. Chairperson: Great. Thanks, Mr. Dhaliwal. This concludes the five minutes of questions. And I want to thank you for your presentation. Okay, so now we'll go to 186. Harjot Dhaliwal is the next person on the–to present. Harjot Dhaliwal? Another student, 186. Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Dhaliwal, go do your pre - sentation. Do you have any written materials to hand out? Mr. Harjot Dhaliwal (Private Citizen) : No, this is just like– Mr.

Chairperson: No, okay, go ahead with your presentation, Mr. Dhaliwal. Mr. Harjot Dhaliwal : Hello, good evening, everyone. Today I'm here to present my views regarding the Bill 30. There are, like, many disadvantages of the Bill 30 if it's passed in the future. So, first of all, I'll talk about the personal impacts that is –that it has on my family. So, as my brother was right here, was talking about the same thing. So, like, if Uber, or, like, this bill is passed, the income of my household will decrease, which will have, like, many impacts on my family.

For example, my dad, he's only, like, main source of income in my family, and then he's the only one who pays for my tuition fees, the other income that we need for our household. And, like, if the Bill 30 is legalized in Winnipeg, so there will be, like, many other –like, it will decrease the income of taxi owners and will cause many problems for the owners too. So, if we look at this issue as a –on a global basis, there are many negative impacts on the residents of Manitoba. We hear about many crimes happening in other places around the world.

For example, a six -year-old girl was killed by an Uber 'drivell'–driver. And six people were shot by an Uber driver in Michigan. So, if crimes like this can happen in other places, I'm pretty sure there's a possibil ity that it can happen in Winnipeg too. So not only for the passengers, but–like, safety is also important for their drivers too. Taxi companies like Unicity, Duffy's have –like, their own rules and regulations, which is followed by everyone here. And like, taxis have shields, cameras, panic lights for safety of the drivers and the passengers.

If other companies do not follow the safety rules, it can have many consequences and like, it can cause danger for many of–like, families. So, in the end, we can say that like, if the – Bill 30 is passed, it can has –have like many con - sequences on, like, micro–on a micro basis, like in families, and also, like, on a global basis. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal. Questions?

334 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 Mr. Lindsey: Thank you for coming and presenting, and I appreciate the fact that you're a student. And congratulations to your dad being able to support you trying to get a better life in Canada by getting an education.

If I can just –really, what you'd like to see is the government do something with this Bill 30, either rip it up, throw it away, or make some changes to it so that it's fair for your dad and for other people so that they're not going to go broke, their busi nesses aren't going to go out of business, there's still going to be able to support their families. Is that fair? Mr. Harjot Dhaliwal: So yes, like, that's just my personal problem, like –my dad. But like, I'm not only here for my family, right? But like also –like, many other families. Like, my brother totally has, like, more than 800 drivers, I think, here.

And then they have their families, too, and then probably –like, all of them–like, their main source of income is taxis. So that's why, like, obviously it's going to affect the taxis' drivers more than everything else and their income–so, like, which will cause other problems too. Mr. Isleifson: Thank you very much for the presentation. Very well -thought-out and well - articulated. A question for you t hough. A lot of the conversation is around being fair. So right now, I'm not sure if you're aware that Winnipeg is the only major city in Canada, that does not regulate their own taxi industry.

Every municipality in Manitoba already has this ability. So I–we truly believe this bill is making it fair, because they're all the same. But a lot of the talk that I've been hearing comes from what may happen, depending on what the City does with Uber and things like that. That's all up to the City. So, when I look at the bill itself, I'm really– want to know why –and I know these folks on the other side of the table will knock this bill down, saying it's terrible. They say things are in the bill that aren't.

But I want to know, from you, what the big issue is of the bill not of Uber, because that's not in the bill–all of that stuff. The bill itself –transferring the authority to Winnipeg to be like all the rest of Manitoba. What do you think of that? Mr. Harjot Dhaliwal: Like, as I said before, like, it has, like, man y, like, personal effects and global –on like–effects on a global basis. So like, personal –it's obviously, like, the income and everything, like, it goes–it decreases, and then on global -basis, like for the safety–the main thing is safety, right?

For like, the residents in Manitoba, like, every - one needs safety here. And if this bill is passed, like, companies like Uber, they don't have rules and regulations like Unicity and Duffy's, right? So like, it will affect, like, the safety too. Mr. Lindsey: Just like to address some of what my colleague across the table said about –you know, we're just trying to keep it fair so that Winnipeg is treated the same as Brandon, as Flin Flon so that they can legislate what the rules are for taxis.

It–are you aware that t axis that operate in some of these other jurisdictions don't have any of the safety measures in place that the C ity of Winnipeg has in place, for very good reasons? I guess, that the City has those things in place to protect taxi drivers, and would it be f air to say that, really, if we wanted to keep it fair for all those different municipalities, that then they should be applying the same rules that are currently in place for the city of Winnipeg, so that those taxi drivers, those passengers are protected equally? * (19:30) Mr.

Harjot Dhaliwal: Manitoba's like one of the top provinces with running the safety of our cabs, right? And if, like, those rules and regulations are not followed by other companies, that can be like –that are coming in the future, it can cause, like, many problems and, like, regarding the safety and then it could–it can decrease the safety and rules and regulations in Manitoba. Mr. Mohinder Saran: Thanks for coming. My question is that if a government is not doing anything wrong, why they don't remove that clause where government can be taken to the court?

If they are doing nothing wrong, it's very clear and they are clear in their mind why they're putting that clause? Mr. Harjot Dhaliwal: So, like, I'm not really sure. Can you repeat the question, please? Mr. Mohinder Saran: The clause is about the compensation that –sorry–the clause is about the compensation, that you cannot take government to the court for compensation. So they have put that clause in this bill. If they are very clear in their mind, they're not afraid of a nything, why they're putting that clause? They should remove that clause, let the court decide whatever it happens.

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 335 Mr. Chairperson: Okay, Mr. Dhaliwal, go ahead and answer, but our time is coming to an end. Mr. Harjot Dhaliwal: Yes, so, like– Mr. Chairperson: Go ahead. Mr. Harjot Dhaliwal: If this bill is passed, right, they're going to, like it's going to have a lot of effects, and then for, like, for that we have to check the owner's income and everything. I'm not really sure, like, for the compensation, but, like, yes, like it has many personal effects too. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal.

Your five minutes is up here, so I want to thank you for your presentation and thanks for coming out tonight. And the next person on the list is No. 187, Jattan Dhaliwal. You can come up. Mr. Dhaliwal, do you have any materials to hand out? Mr. Jattan Dhaliwal (Private Citizen): No, it's– Mr. Chairperson: Okay, go ahead with your presentation. Mr. Jattan Dhaliwal : So I am here –good evening everyone. I'm here to present my views and points on Uber–I mean, Bill 30, and so one of the most important effect is, like, affecting our families.

There's about, like, 800 families, you can say, like, more than 800 families that 's being affected due to this Bill 30. And, like, the income that's coming from taxis are going to decrease, and as you've already brought up, like, the Bill 31, they're increasing the tuition fees, and I, myself, am in university; I'm a student for scienc es. And those two brothers, like, two guys that came in front of me, they were my brothers. So it's basically affecting, like, all of us, and we're not the only family here. Like, there's more families that's going to be affected due to this bill.

And not only personal issues, there's also, like, global issues, like, issues for, like, safety, like, there's a different safety concerns, such as like Uber doesn't provide any, like, shields or anything, like, not only Uber, but like if there's other companies that's coming in, the safety's also–always going to be a concern. And also, like, the drivers won't meet their, like, driving licences requirements and they won't have any, like, criminal checks or child abuse registry checks, which also affects the safet y again, and there's –also there's no training given to any of the drivers.

So, like, it's, like, you can't really, like, train a–I mean, drive if–without training, right? And also there's, like, there's other impacts that happen. Like, there was a six- year-old girl that was killed by the Uber driver. And also one of the reasons why Bill 30 is coming, like, I think, it is because to make Winnipeg more modern, but, like, there's developed cities such as, like London, that has banned and like BC, right? And it's like a fashion and a trend, as we said.

So it doesn't really make it modern if we bring, like Bill 30 up, like, and, so I can just conclude that Bill 30 shouldn't be brought up and it should be the way it is right now. Mr. Chairperson: Yes, thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Dhaliwal. And first question will be Mr. Isleifson. Mr. Isleifson: Thank you again for the presentation. Like your brothers, it's very well right to the point and a lot of good concerns. You mentioned that there are a couple cities in the world –I thi nk you said London and one in BC that have banned Uber.

Normally, I wouldn't sit here and talk about Uber, because it's not part of the bill. However, there seems to be a concern that things may change if Uber comes in, a nd I certainly understand that. So my question to you is: With this bill, it– should it pass, it will go to the City of Winnipeg. They must come up with a bylaw that addresses the safety and exactly what you're talking about. Would you be prepared to go t o City Council at that time, during their hearings, and ensure that the safety aspects and the aspects about fairness are addressed through the City when they create their bylaw? Mr.

Jattan Dhaliwal: Well, why should we bring it up, at first, because, like , it's already, like, safe? There's taxicabs and everything. Like, it's at a pretty, like, good level. Well, bringing up other companies, like –I mean, sorry, bringing up the Bill 30 will bring up com - panies and it will decrease the safety of the companies. But, even if you bring up rules and regulations, it's just creating another problem and– like, more problems. Mr. Lindsey: Thank you for coming out, and I appreciate the fact that you're here and talking about this very important bill. And you brought an

336 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 interesting perspective that –you talked about that you get that they want to modernize and–but big urban centres like London are fairly modern and they've decided that this Uber, this ride-sharing is not the right answer. Would it be fair to say that the taxi industry in Winnipeg has already started to modernize? I know I have a Unicity app on my phone that tells me where the car is and when it's going to be there. So, I mean, they talk about this app that Uber has that's the greatest thing since sliced b read.

But, apparently, Unicity's already got that, right. So I don't understand why they think this is going to be something different. So, really, it comes down to it looks like it's going to be something cheaper. Can you comment on that? Mr. Jattan Dhaliwal: Yes, so, like, it's already more, like, developing. Like, the Taxicab Board is already developing. Like, there –I've heard that they're bringing Wi -Fi and other stuff in taxis. And, like, app's already been developed. And, like, I don't think they're, like, Uber or any other company is more developed than other taxi core – board companies in Winnipeg.

So it is already modernized–yes. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Isleifson. Mr. Isleifson: No. No, thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Lindsey. Mr. Linds ey: Thank you. I just have a quick question. It's my understanding that many of these Uber drivers or ride -sharing drivers, whether it's Uber or Lyft or some other, are really not full -time drivers. They drive during the peak hours, that –the rush hours and really leave the traditional taxi drivers holding the bag, if you will, to try and cover the non- peak hours, which really, then, affects their ability to earn a decent standard of living.

Is that your understanding as well? Mr. Jattan Dhaliwal: I agree, l ike, with you, because if you think about it, most of the Uber drivers or any other company drivers are going to be working part -time, like, a lot, because –just at rush hours, and that's when the full -time drivers, like, are going to get affected, because of the income that they're going to make at rush hours. It's not going to be the same when other companies are going to come in. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Maloway. [interjection] Mr. Saran. Mr. Mohinder Saran: Yes, okay. Thank you for coming out and over here.

Main thing is that every time that question's raised, other cities have the jurisdiction but only in Manitoba we are–Manitoba government has the jurisdiction in the city of Winnipeg. Number 1, city of Winnipeg is total population of Manitoba –is 68 per c ent. I think that's what I heard. Number 2, because, if taxi board is under Manitoba government, it can cover all the other cities, and that way they can make such rules, which will be uniform for everybody and all the citizens of Manitoba will be safe. What do you think about that? * (19:40) Mr.

Jattan Dhaliwal: Well, as I said, like, bringing Bill 30 isn't really going to bring anything more modern or safety –right, like, more safety for, like, the Winnipeggers or anything. So, like, if you keep it this way and, like, just develop it for the Unicity or other companies that are already, like, under the Taxicab Board, it's just better to keep this way. And it won't affect the income of it. Like, of the income of the drivers. Instead of, like, increasing, say, other safety concerns by making more companies come into Winnipeg. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal, for your–answering those questions.

And thanks for your presentation. We're over the five minut es, so we're going to the next–Mr. Maloway. Mr. Ma loway: I'd like to know whether we could have leave of the committee, I just have a couple more students that cannot be here tomorrow and have school in the morning. I have No. 145, Mr. Dhaliwal, Norvinder [phonetic] Kaur Dhaliwal; TJ Bedi, 179; Kiranjeet Bedi, 180; and Navdep Bedi, 178. And one more is Manjeet Dhillon, is 200. And these are all kids that have to not only get some sleep tonight, but they can't actually be here tomorrow because they're in school. Mr.

Chairperson: Is it the agreement of the committee to allow these individuals that were listed to come up for –earlier? To get to the top of the list? Agreed? [Agreed] So we'll continue with No. 145, Mirnmal [phonetic] Dhaliwal. Mirmal [phonetic] Dhaliwal. No. 45. Ms. Dhaliwal, do you have any material that you want to hand out to the committee?

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 337 Ms. Nirmal Dhaliwal (Private Citizen): No. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, go ahead, Ms. Dhaliwal. Ms. Dhaliwal: So my dad has been working in the taxicab business for 27 years now– Mr. Chairperson: Do you want to get closer to the microphone so we can hear you? Sorry, the person–could you keep–the individual that's standing beside you can't stand beside you. Okay, go ahead, Ms. Dhaliwal. Ms. Dhaliwal: He came to Canada in 1990 for the sake of a b etter life. He has put his blood and sweat in the taxi industry.

My dad started off working in factories and cleaning big box stores, ending up investing thousands of dollars to build a business in this industry. He went from working long, long hours to night shifts so that he could save enough money to buy his own taxi. He did this for the sake of his family. Seeing my dad's hard work, dedication and perseverance has showed me to do just that. Over the years, I've seen my dad work very hard in what he does. He is not only doing this for a job, but he is very passionate about what he does.

I am grateful for–the safety measurement regu - lations are in place to protect these hard -working drivers. These regulations like the cameras installed, the safety shields that have protected many people, and in some cases saved their lives. It is very important to have these safety measures for driver s and passengers. Also, the cameras are there to –that are put into taxicabs are not only for the safe of the – for driver and passenger safety, but this has also helped law enforcement catch others who have been involved in criminal activity. Driver safety is just as important as passenger safety.

My dad is required to do a up-to-date criminal record check and a child abuse registry. He is required to renew our Taxicab Board licence for a few–every few years. This is all -important when in an industry where you're transporting the public. Many in the taxicab industry are small -business owners, since many of us –many of them are owner - operators. This industry is locally owned and supporting many Manitobans. It provides a steady income to those who operate a s ingle-income house- hold to families who have lost their loved ones who used to work in the industry.

This is something they rely on to put food on the table. These taxicabs are retirement plans for others who have worked in the industry for 20 -30 years. These taxicabs are more than just a monetary value for some people; they represent all the hard work and struggles they have faced. A large majority of the taxicab drivers are men and women who have come from developing countries to provide a better life for their families. They were given a real chance to start fresh, something they may not have an opportunity to do if they hadn't moved to Canada.

The government of Manitoba started the Manitoba nominee program many years ago. At one point, this program offered people a chance to come–become small business owners. These men and women sold their assets such as generational property and bought their –brought their life savings to Manitoba. They invested their life savings into taxicabs here, trusting that the y could build a future for themselves and their future. They have put faith in the system, and left their countries behind. They had so much at risk, but they still invested in the economy.

To tell these people that their invest- ments are now in jeopardy is truly heartbreaking. And I'd like to say that these investments are not just in monetary value, but they are proof of how hard so many people have worked. Before introducing Bill 30, the government should have consulted the taxi industry. Everyone in this industry is an important part of the community. All we have to ask is for safety for the drivers and passengers, fairness, and serious consideration for what our community has at stake and what our com - munity will undergo if this is passed.

I reques t the committee, the City of Winnipeg and the government of Manitoba, please consider our opinions before making any decisions. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thanks, Ms. Dhaliwal. Mr. Lindsey, for the question. Mr. Lindsey: Thank you very much for coming. I know it's somewhat nerve-racking to come and make a presentation like this. It is for lots of us.

So I appreciate that you're here, and, really, you've– you talk about some very important points that people have come to this country, invested in this city , invested in their business, and, really, the whole problem with this particular bill is is it may make

338 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 that investment worth nothing, which then is going to affect your family and other families' ability to earn a living and to survive. Is that basically what you're saying? Ms. Dhaliwal: Yes. There are many families here, and mine, that depend on the taxi industry as an income to support their families. So this will truly affect many families. Mr. Lindsey: Thank you for that.

The other thing you talked a bout as well was the safety of drivers and passengers and it's taken many years for the current regulations to really adapt and add in a lot of things of –a lot of things, like, shields came about after incidents happened and taxi drivers were hurt or killed. And the strobe lights, again, were not something that just all of a sudden happened. So, by allowing the City to regulate taxis as opposed to the Province, really, there's no guarantee that any of those safety protections are going to be there, is there? Ms.

Dhaliwal: My concern is that if it is passed on to, like, the –if the City is in charge of this industry, that opens up doors to other companies that may not offer the same safety measures that there are now. Ms. Flor Marcelino (Logan): Thank you, y oung lady, for giving us a very thoughtful presentation. Your father must be very proud of you. You are intelligent and you are caring. Mr. Chair, this has bothered me and I said I'll bite my tongue.

But I'm really bothered, and I'd like to ask you: The people who are in the taxi industry in Winnipeg, I don't know in other towns or municipalities, but, in Winnipeg, are predominately new Canadians. They were not born here. They immigrated here, predominantly from India. Do you think if the owner -operators or these small businessmen, if they were non- immigrants, if they were born here and if they're not coloured, do you think this bill would ever even be introduced? Ms. Dhaliwal: So you're asking if –can you just reword the question? Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Ma rcelino, can you repeat the question? * (19:50) Ms.

Marcelino: What is your sense, if the majority of the taxi drivers, owners, operators were white men, white people and not coloured people– Point of Order An Honourable Member: A point of order. Mr. Chairperson: A point of order? A point of order on–Ms. Lamoureux. Ms. Cindy Lamoureux (Burrows): I just want to say I can appreciate where the question is coming from and if you choose to answer, but it's your discretion. Do not answer if you are uncom fortable in any way, okay? Mr. Chairperson: Yes, the member doesn't have a point of order, but we'll carry on. * * * Mr. Chairperson: Ms.

Dhaliway –[interjection] Dhaliwal, go ahead. Ms. Dhaliwal: In my opinion, I'm not here saying that this is happening because the majority are Indians. That's all I have to say. Mr. Allum: Thank you so much for coming tonight, and as my friend said, it takes a lot of courage to come here, and so I just want you to know that I think all of us here feel very strongly about the courage that you've shown tonight.

You've said– you're–said that you're concerned that the rules of the game are going to change and so, if the rules of the game are going to change, do you think it's fair that at least your family and all the other families should be offered some sort of compensation if they're going to change the rules of the game after all the investment that's been made? Mr. Chairperson: Mister–Ms. Dhaliwal. Ms. Dhaliwal: I do think there should be something done for the families who've given up everything for this industry. Mr.

Isleifson: To the presenter, I want to apologize to you on behalf of the PC caucus that someone would even present a question to you that is both racist and discriminatory. So, on behalf of the government, I apologize for you even being asked that question and put in that spot. Mr. Chairperson: Thanks, Ms. Dhaliwal. We're– An Honourable Member: Point of order. Point of Order Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Allum. Mr. Allum: Mr. Chair, the member made an allegation that I don't think he is possibly able to

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 339 substantiate, about the line of questioning made by my friend from Logan. I think it would be very wise for him right now to withdraw that remark, as he himself is the one who's drawing that conclusion, and I don't think that's a conclusion shared by the rest of us. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Isleifson, on the same point of order. Mr. Isleifson: Yes, on the same point of order. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was simply referring to the question that was asked by the member opposite who mentions about the possibility–asked this poor presenter a question based on a hypothetical, and I hate to say it, but she asked about the colour of somebody and that the bill was being written for that person, so I'm certainly not going to withdraw it, and you can certainly, you know, look at it and rule your way. Mr. Chairperson: This is not a point of order. We're just–dispute on the facts, and we're going to carry on. * * * Mr. Chairperson: So, we'll go to the next presenter. Thank you very much.

Okay, the next presenter is No. 178, Navdep Bedi. Ms. Bedi, do you have anything to hand out or any–for the– Ms. Navdep Bedi (Private Citizen): No. Mr. Chairperson: Okay. You can go ahead with your presentation, Ms. Bedi. Ms. Navdep Bedi: Good evening, everyone. My name is Navdep Bedi, and I'm here to present my thoughts in front of you, as a growing family, regarding Bill 30– Mr. Chairperson: Sorry. Can you speak louder or speak right into the mic? Ms. Navdep Bedi: Is this better? Mr. Chairperson: Yes. Ms. Navdep Bedi: Okay, I just want to present my thoughts regarding Bill 30, as a young growing family. Mr.

Chairperson: Hold it– can you just hold it up just a little bit higher? Yes, to your mouth, yes. Ms. Navdep Bedi: How about that? Mr. Chairperson: Perfect. Ms. Navdep Bedi: Yes, okay. Sorry about that. It's hard to speak in front of the mic and in front of everybody. Okay, so me and my husband have been married for almost 15 years, and he has been driving taxis before even we got married. We have worked hard to try to pay off our loans that we took to buy the taxi at that time.

And we, as a growing family, we're thinking of paying off the debt on the taxi is more important than paying our house mortgage, because that was our business, which is bringing us the income at that time. About six years ago, when my older brother got diagnosed with a brain tumour, I couldn't handle the emotional stress and got severely sick and ended up losing my ability to work. If we didn't have income from the taxi at that time, we weren't be able to survive on just my husband's salary only.

We did not contribute anything towards our RRSPs or RESPs for my chil dren, thinking that paying off the debt of the taxi at that time, would be– work–would work as our retirement income and could help us use that toward my kids' future payments for their college and university. My husband used to drive taxis for full -time basis at –and I had seen him working more than 12 hours everyday, for six days at week at least, and then on the seventh day too. He used to go, get up for a couple hours a day–or a few hours a day so that he can just save extra money for our kids' –my kids' extracurricular activities.

I still remember the day when he was doing his evening shift, and the regular time for him coming home was six in the morning and he didn't return. And about 8 a.m. in the morning I started feeling something is wrong, and I tried to get a hold of and I couldn't get a hold of him. I had no other ways –I tried to call his brother –he had –because he –they were switching shifts at that time. And he said, I don't even know where he is either. I can't get a hold of him either.

And around 10 o'clock, I got a call from him and–saying that I'm at the Public Safety Building, which worried me even more, that why are you there? And then he explained it to me. I'm there as a witness, because one of the customers that he picked up–as a dispat ch trip, he ended up going there –and there was a guy with two of his other buddies, and he was shot. So they came in his cab and he said: Can

340 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 you please take us somewhere? We need help. And I–this guy is shot. He was full of blood and he said at that time, he had to make a quick decision, what to do. Save the guy's life or just take him to the police station. He didn't know what to do. So at that time, what he did was he took the guy, he made a decision that okay, driving him to the hospital is the priority , and at the same time, he wanted to dispatch, he wanted to let the office know what's going on. So he had the two- way radio at that time.

He called the dispatch, informing her what he's doing and then informed the police. And by the time he reached the H ealth Sciences Centre, police was already at the scene, and the emergency department was ready to take care of the man and the guy's life was saved at that time. And I even know –I even remember that–him, in the news. When I –next morning when I went to the work, my work people were talking about this and said, do you remember? Do you know the cab guy who saved the life of a person at that time? And I was like, it was my husband.

I was very proud of that, because that's something that you did as a human being: to go and save somebody's life. But which ride -sharing company will be available 2 a.m. in the morning, to help you dispatch to the police, at the same time contacting with you, and arranging everything at that time for you? None of the sharing compani es have that dispatch service except the taxi industry. They have the dispatch service 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 a day–a year.

And none of the other ride -sharing companies have that dispatch service available right now–as far as I know, right. * (20:00) So that's something like –we are happy to serve the community and helping as a taxi driver. It's not only the person who is working as a cab driver. It's the whole family that is behind that person and telling him, yes, every day you go and do t his work even though it is not safe. If you want to feel that way, you need to go sit with one taxi driver a day and just live his life for one day, because it's–you can never imagine. I can never know what your job is.

You can never feel what the taxi dri ver job is until you go and sit with him and watch, even for one day, what they do in their regular life, how much abuse they take, how much they help people. People are there–and you don't find every day everywhere nice people. You do find very nice peopl e, and you don't find not too nice people every day. So you need to realize how important it is for everybody in the family and when–especially for nighttime when your husband is out at night and it's– I'm talking about only one incident –it's not only one incident that happens.

And I bet you there's so many other taxi drivers who deal with this kind of situation every day, and their families are at risk. When you sleep at nighttime, your husband is out, you don't sleep peacefully –not every day, not even a single night. You're always afraid; your phone is always on; you don't know what kind of call you're getting. Six in the morning and you know your husband should be home. And, when he's not home, you don't know– you don't know. And only thought that will come into your mind is what if something bad happened, right.

You're never going to think about something good; it's always–and especially when you get a call saying that I'm in the Public Safety Building, like, what do you think? Something bad happened, right. So I just want to say to you guys that I –we're proud of serving the community and helping, but, at the same time, our biggest investment is our taxi. And we pay –we try to paid our debt more than paying our house mortgage which, to most of the people, is their biggest asset in their life. So, if we didn't even get compensated of that–on that, we don't even know what do we do?

Like, we could have paid our house by that time instead of paying the taxi, but we thought, okay, this is our retirement income, this is our income to pay our kids' future university bills and stuff. And I brought two of my kids with me, six and 11, and one of my kids is sick–he has fever, but we still wanted to show you guys that it's affecting everybody, not only the cab driver but from the youngest to the eldest in the family.

And, at the time of the previous elections, you guys had urged us to make the right choice and we did make the right choice at that time, and now we, same people, are urging you to make the right choice. And please, please make the right choice. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thanks, Ms. Bedi, for your presentation. We'll go in for questions here. Mr. Lindsey: Thank you very much, and it certainly is nice to get another perspective again about why the safety of drivers is so very important and why the

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 341 rules that are in place now aren't perfect, but they offer more protection than having no rules at all. Nothing that says you have to have a shield or a strobe light. So, really, what you're –one of your concerns–you have more than that –but one of your concerns is to make sure that there's rules in place so that your husband can come home safe every day. Ms. Navdep Bedi: Yes, sir. For sure, everybody–and it's not only me–every woman, if they're here or they are sitting at home right now, they have the same concern that your husband needs to be safe.

And the dispatch is actually another way of communicating, too, right, because if the company has a dispatch system, the driver needs –and it's not only for the driver, too, right. Those –safety of those drivers, plus the passengers as well. I don't know how many ride-sharing companies does the same thing too. If my husband didn't have a two-way radio to do the dispatch at that time, because he was trying to call the company from the cell and he said he wasn't available to reach because the phone lines were busy, but the drivers are provided with a two -way radio as well.

So that was the time that he used his two -way radio to dispatch, and the dispatch was the one who was talking back and forth to the police, back and forth, and the police then arranged the ER, and it's a big thing to save somebody's life. It's a human life , and, if it wasn't done at the right time at the right moment, that person wouldn't have been alive. Mr. Chairperson: Minister Wharton, for the next question. Mr. Wharton: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Ms.

Bedi, thank you so much for your presentation and s haring your story and the hardships that you– you know, waiting for your husband to come home eve ry morning must be a challenge, a nd raising those two kids on your own for half the day is a challenge in itself. Being a dad of two and a granddad of four, so I can appreciate the challenges of the day-to-day life. Just on the safety issue, and we've heard a lot of this over the last two days and again tonight it's continuing on, and it's becoming more along the lines of the No. 1 concern with–in the industry right now.

And it seems like the current safety is strong, but it almost sounds like it needs to get stronger to protect you, your husband, your –the drivers in general and the customers. In your view –and this is important – in your view, how do you feel that could be strengthened, potentially, under a new regime with the City of Winnipeg. Ms. Navdep Bedi: To me, honestly, I think the system that we have right now is pretty protective. The only thing is when you are on the road, especially, the nighttime drivers, right, because not too many people, not you and me will be on the road at 2 in the morning every day, right?

So, obviously, people who are on the road are not going to be in–I'm not going to use the wrong word here, but I'm just trying to say either they're drunk or they're just partying or doing, maybe, the jobs too. It's not that nobody just out there is in the right state of mind; everybody has different situations at that time, and that's why I'm saying that some people are nice and some people are not so nice at that time. So the system right now is pretty safe, but as long as we do keep it the same way, we don't want to take away the protection from the taxi drivers, whatever they have right now at this time. Mr.

Chairperson: Minister Wharton again. Mr. Wharton : I can guarantee there'll be a lot of people in this room tonight going home at 1:30 and 2 in the morning, for sure. But just furthermore on that, if, again, we're looking for ideas with respect to safety because it is a big issue and a big concern, and any ideas that come forward over the next day or two as we continue this very democratic process are much appreciated by I'm sure, by the entire committee tonight. So I thank you for that. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Lindsey, do you have a question? Mr.

Lindsey: Thank you again for coming out, and one of things that I've done in the past is I've volunteered for a thing called Operation Red Nose, which is a volunteer group at the Christmas season that volunteers to g o out and drive people home and bring their cars home. Can–certainly one of the concerns that I always have is similar to what you brought up, that we don't know who we're picking up and we don't know what condition they're in, and we don't know what may happen.

So one of the things that that volunteer organization has put in place is you have to have a driver and a co -pilot to take the people home in their own car and you have to have somebody else following you in the chase car so–I mean, that's over the top to expect that to be in place–

342 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Lindsey, can you hurry up with the question? We're out of time, so. Mr. Lindsey: So I just want to really say I agree with what Mr. Wharton said. If you've got ideas about how to improve the safety and welfare of drivers, certainly, I'm sure that Mr. Wharton–that our other government officials would be more than happy to hear that, but, really, downgrading it to the City to look after with less resources than the Province, that wouldn't really be the right way to go, would it? Ms. Navdep Bedi: Yes.

So, to me, even if you are doing the ride sharing, the protection for the drivers for the ride sharing should be the same as the taxi drivers who are getting it right now these days: the shield, the dispatch, the ability to communicate with someone in case of danger because if the taxi drivers are being protective, whoever is going to do the ride sharing, if the ride sharing comes, then they should have the same protection as a driver as well, to be taxi drivers. Mr. Chairperson: Thanks, Ms. Bedi. We're–the five minute for questions is up, so thank you very much for your presentation.

And now we'll call on the next presenter, No. 179, TJ Bedi. Mr. Bedi, do you have any materials that you want to hand out? Mr. TJ Bedi (Private Citizen): No. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, Mr. Bedi, you can go ahead with your presentation. Mr. Bedi: I'm a 10th-grade student at the University of Winnipeg Collegiate, and it's only my dad that's paying for my tuition fees. So my dad has been driving a taxi for 18 years, and nine years ago he spent two thousand, six–$268,000, and he bought his own taxi. He got this money from the home line, and he also took a loan from the bank. So he kind of had to pay a lot of interest.

Now he still needs to pay the home mortgage, and the only one that has income is my dad. * (20:10) At home, we are a family of six –my grand - parents, my parents, and my younger brother and me. My grandparents are old. My grandfather is a heart patient and my grandmother can't see properly, so they're both dependent on my dad. My –five years ago my mother got sick and she got diagnosed with fibromyalgia so she had to quit her job. My dad is the only one who ha d income but two years ago he got diagnosed with brain tumour. He had his first surgery in June 2016 and he had to stay home for six months.

We thought he was fine but six months later he –the doctor contacted us and he told us the tumour had regrown. Even after the surgery he went and worked seven days a week and more than 12 hours a day. My parents wanted me and my brother to have a good future and they wanted us to become better citizens of this wonderful country, so they wanted us to have a better education. If this bill goes through, the future plans will be compromised and our taxi is our backup plan for the future.

My dad said, God forbid if something happens to him or if he is unable to work, at least we have our taxi income we can depend upon. Like last year, when my dad had to stay home for six months, the taxi was the only source of income to pay for our food and our daily needs. He also said that the taxi is his pension plan. He will –he thought that he would work until he could and when he got ol d, he could sell the taxi for his retirement, but what his –with the Bill 30, his plan for retirement and our future studies will become unstable. So I request that you please rethink Bill 30. Mr. Chairperson: Thanks, Mr.

Bedi. We have now a question from Minister Eichler. Mr. Eichler : I really don't have a question, but I want to thank you for your presentation and coming here tonight. I know it's getting late and you got school tomorrow but certainly thank you for coming tonight, very much appreciate it. Mr. Lindsey: I, too, want to t hank you for coming and talking about really some very important aspects of what's wrong with this bill and it –how it affects your family in a very personal way, but how it affects other families in the taxi industry as well. So your family doesn't have a company pension plan or RRSPs.

The taxi itself is your parents' retirement income. Is that correct? Mr. Bedi: I believe so. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Lindsey. Mr. Bedi, did you– said yes? Mr. Bedi: Yes. Mr. Lindsey: I know it's hard for you to stand up here, and I appreciate how well you've done and I

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 343 wish I'd have been that brave when I was your age to stand up in front of a crowd and speak. So really, one of the things that –if this government won't just make this bill go away, there really needs to be som e changes to it so that your family can get properly compensated for the future loss, that that taxi was going to be your dad's retirement income. So , if that isn't going to be there anymore, there should be something that the government puts in place to t ake that place. Is that right? Mr. Bedi: Yes. Yes, sir. Mr. Chairperson: Any other questions? Mr.

Lindsey: Again, I appreciate that it's getting late and you've put on a very nice presentation and we certainly all appreciate what you've put into this. We've listened to what it means to your family, we've listened to your –saying that you agree that there should be some compensation, even though this bill particularly takes any chance of that compensation away. So we talked about safety for your dad when he's driving or people that may drive for him. This bill may make all of that go away.

So, really, I guess in your family's opinion, the best thing to do with this bill would be to just take it and throw it away and not introduce it at all. Amendments could potentially make it a little better, but really the best thing would be just scrap Bill 30, withdraw it, and forget about it. Is that a fair statement? Mr. Bedi: Yes. Mr. Lindsey: Is there anything more that you would like to say about some of the things that we've talked about here tonight? Mr. Bedi: No, thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Any other questions? Mr. Bedi, thank you much for your presentation, and we'll continue with the next presenter.

Thank you. I'm going to call on No. 180, Kiranjeet Bedi. Ms. Bedi, do you have any materials to hand out? Ms. Kiranjeet Bedi (Private Citizen): No. Mr. Chai rperson: Okay. Ms. Bedi, you can begin your presentation. Ms. Kiranjeet Bedi: Thank you so much, Sir. Good evening, everyone. I'm here to present a story of my life, how Bill 30 is affecting my life. My son just presented and I just wanted to share, in 1999, 18 years ago I came in this country. I came with two bags and $100 in my pocket. Like many other drivers, they sold their ancestor's property from back home and they brought money.

For us, we wor k hard here. We work 12- hour shifts. My husband works 15- hour shifts. On the weekend he works 30-hour shifts, too. We work very hard. Nine, 10 years ago we bought our own taxi. That was $260–$2,060 something–$260,000. We work very hard to pay off that de bt because that's our asset, that's our retirement plan. That's the only thing we have saved for our children, is to give them best future so they can study hard, they can work, and they can become a very better citizens for our country.

That's the only thing we can give to our children is the better future, and that's why we were working so hard to pay off our taxi. But, suddenly, with this Bill 30, now we are left with zero. All that we paid for $260,000 is becoming zero now. So we work hard, 18 years –12-hour-long shifts, 15-hours-long shifts; 30- hour shifts, and now suddenly we are getting zero for it. As a proud citizen of Winnipeg, Canada, I want a better future for my –not only my children, for every other children out there, so they can be better future, good citizens of the country.

But, with this all in the room here, all the taxi drivers, we don't have future with this because all our hard-working earned money is coming zero with this Bill 30. So my question is: If that Bill 30 is not opening doors for–back door for Uber or ride sharing, what is the need to bring that and change, dissolving the Taxicab Board and changing all the procedures? Mr. Chairperson: Thanks, Ms. Bedi, for your presentation. Are you done your presentation, or was that a question? Okay. So I want to thank you for your presentation. We'll go into the questions, and does the minister have any remarks. Okay, Mr. Lindsey.

Mr. Lindsey: I want to thank you for asking really the best question we've heard here tonight, is if this bill is not about bringing in Uber, what's the point of it? And that's a really good perspective that you've

344 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 26, 2017 brought in, and I guess it's something that we now will have to ask the government in other forums, if you will, but I just want to talk about a little bit about the compensation end of things again, that if the government is insistent on bringing in this bill, would it make it more fair in your mind if the part that says there shall be no compensation to existing taxi drivers, if that

part is withdrawn, would that begin to make this bill at least a little bit more fair? * (20:20) Ms. Kiranjeet Bedi: I would say that's what my point is. We work so hard. We paid off the taxi. That's our future plan, and we are left with zero with this bill. My answer is, yes, for sure, we should com - pensate. We should get some compensation because that's our hard-earned money, and we don't want that to go to zero suddenly, like, from $400,000, $500,000 taxi is now zero. So where is that money gone, what we worked for?

We worked hard, we lost our lives –we lost our– days of our lives, like, just working so hard we don't even know what was going on in our family. Our kids from 10 m onths and they are already 15 years old, and we lost those times –not seeing them, their first acts. We didn't hear that first talk what they were–the first word they spoke. We lost that time, and now–even we lost that time, and now we lost our money, what we earned so far. So for sure there should be compensation and the fair–we are not opposed to Uber or ride sharing, but it should be fair deal.

If they're coming in, they should be the same rules and regulations; they should be with same safety rules; they should go through all the 35-hour course. They should all do the criminal record check. Again, Uber is–we're hearing lot about Uber. Again, we shouldn't go through all that. We're–that's everything on the Internet. We can find all the news, what's happening in other cities. Why we have to suffer and experience those bad things with our city –within our city to again realize that we made mistake. Why can't we learn from other cities?

They did the mistake, and then why can't we learn and do better things? Mr. Maloway: I want to thank you for an excellent presentation and the –one of the government members has said several times now that it's not about Uber. So I'm just wondering, I guess that Uber guy that was here two nights ago was lost. He just kind of f ound his –flew in from Toronto and found his way into the Legislature but he was really going somewhere else, because he was here to talk about – nothing about Uber, evidently.

Now, if Uber comes here under this plan with the City, they will–the Uber drivers will not have to install shields, will not have to install cameras, will not have to install strobes. No panic buttons, don't know about the criminal record check, the child abuse registry, nor the 35 hours of training and so on that's required. Now, how could that be? Like, surely the members opposite, who –most of them claim to be small -business people or supportive of small business–how could a party like that be against –be supporting a bill like this? Ms. Kiranjeet Bedi: Sure, sir. I wanted to say this is about Winnipeg.

This is about our city. This is about our youth, and eventually those Uber drivers are Winnipeggers. So why don't we are –paying attention? Those Winnipeggers, they are just saying at the smaller part of the Uber coming that they can earn money, but the thing is, again, it's about safety. Those Winnipeggers are our future, too– our students, and they are working for other people. They need safety as well. So they need cameras installed, they need shields installed, they need two- way syste m–radio system and strobe lights. Everything safety should be same.

So if they are coming in Uber ride sharing, they should be with the same procedure as taxis, Unicity and Duffy's Taxi and other taxi businesses in our Winnipeg. Mr. Chairperson: Great. Th anks, Ms. Bedi. Your question for five minutes is up and I want to thank you very much for your presentation, and thanks for coming out tonight. Okay, we're going to the next presenter. We'll go back to the top of the list. Okay sorry, we're going to go to 200, and the person's name is Manjeet Dhillon and private citizen. So if Manjeet, if you can come up? Ms. Dhillon you can–do you have any materials to hand out? Ms.

Manjeet Dhillon (Private Citizen): I don't, no. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, thanks, Ms. Dhillon. You can proceed with your presentation. Ms. Manjeet Dhillon: So I'm speaking form a different perspective. I'm not a taxi driver, I'm a daughter of a former taxi driver. My dad has been driving taxi for a really long time. Unfortunately, he

October 26, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 345 did pass away four years ago, and I'm 18 now. I have two siblings and I have a single mother that's here with me today. With my dad passing away, our taxi left us an income. Although it wasn't a full income, it was still something to help my mom out and help me and my three siblings get through school. All three of us are in university. We attend the University of Winnipeg. My brother is in his fifth year, my sister is in her fourth and I'm in my first. All these people here have come here for a better future.

They sold their land –like many people have already mentioned, they sold their land, they've left their homes, and they've built their own business. The ground beneath these people's feet are shaking right now. Everybody feels like the business that they've built, the things that they've done is being stolen from them. Not only would this bill change my life, it would also change the life of my family –not just my immediate family and the people that live in my house, but my families that live in ot her homes. If this bill passes, everybody in my family loses one income, and that's very terrifying.

For many people, this–if not the only income, it's the most dependent income. Everybody feels like their investments are going to garbage. They don't complain. These people work hard every single day, and they don't complain. After, you know, coming home from long shifts, they come back home, they go to sleep, and they go out there and they do it again. And they don't have any complaints, you know. If something needs to be repaired, these people pull the money out of their own pocket to repair those things.

All the safety matters, as far as the cameras and the shields go, it feels like a complete loss because all that money was taken out of their pocket to just bigger their investment and just make their company a little bit safer. If we're saying that –what is there to, like, to be done to make things safer?

If you asked anybody here to add–you know, like, everything's already safe enough with the strobe li ghts and the glass and the cameras and everything like that, so if these –if everybody here was told to add another thing into their taxi to make it safer, without a question, everybody here would do it, no questions asked. These people don't care about the money; these people care about their lives, their family and their, like, their income and their future. They're afraid. These are courageous people.

Day after day, they go out and they take the abuse that many people have talked about, and people have s hared their stories. I've never been through it before, but when my dad woul

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-2-sed10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 2nd hansardpdf sed10.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9ab2eeb74e385aae6f0e16d827ea0c5d9e8956e1

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