Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 25 (27th Legislature, 4th Session)

27-4-25

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8: 00 o'clock Monday, March 15th, 1965. 595 MADAM SPEAKER: When we adjourned, the Honourable Member for Assiniboia had the floor. The Honourable the Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Madam Speaker, before we closed at 5:30 I made some references which I was concerned, and that was to what extent will Metro be responsible for the Red River Exhibition and an inconsistency, because if the Provincial Government are responsible for the Brandon Fair, why should it not be responsible for the Red River Exhibition? Now on No. 6,

Section Ei, it's an internal matter as far as the Metro Corporation is concerned and I think it's strictly for efficiency. They can hire their own personnel. I haven't got much objection to that with the exception that I'm not too clear on that point. I know we'll be able to raise most of the points

section by

section in Committee, but these are the 'points that I'm concerned with now and under

Section 19: why should the municipalities be responsible for the lOO per cent collection of taxes if they're not able to collect themselves? Now there is as far as the Metro legislation is concerned, there is some confusion. Today we have zoning, planning and a building code, water mains, sewers under the control of Metro. It seems there is very little left for the municipalities to do. I wonder what is and what will be the purpose of the Municipal Council. In planning I think there should be more co-operation than we have now.

I don't believe there is enough co-operation as far as the Metro and the local municipalities are con cerned. For instance, in St. Ja:mes I know the council opposed a structure on Mount Royal Street but this was to no avail because Metro went ahead and issued the building permits any how. So at the moment I'd say there's not -- every year there's less and less for the local municipalities left to do and as far as I'm concerned it might have been better if the planning had been left within the local municipalities and probably fire and police were taken by Metro. It probably would have been better.

At the present time there's just the police and the fire department that is left with the control of the local municipalities. I feel that local councils should have a little more authority as far as planning is concerned because the way the situ ation now is, it seems to be a lot of confusion and just not theproper co-operation between the two areas, the Metro Corporation and the local municipalities. I will be raising more points in connec:tion with this bill in Committee, Madam Speaker. MR.

CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, the Honourable the Member for Assiniboia has raised some interesting points with regard to the limitation of the jurisdiction of municipalities now that Metro has been in effect for some time and it seems, as perhaps could have been thought natural to take as time goes on more and more powers to itself.

As a matter of fact on the local news on TV at the dinner hour I noticed a report that seemed to indicate that the council o:f the City of Winnipeg had taken the position that with regard to this very controver sial subject of the fire precautions and safety measures for rented houses or actually tenement houses, I believe, that the council, so the news commentator was speculating, was likely to ask Metro to take this over. Well perhaps that's a good move and at least it might ensure some uniformity and apparently it is a question that needs some decision made on it.

But the point that I really got up to mention briefly was the one that has been raised by the Honourable Member for St.

George, where he has been asking the Minister of Municipal Affairs on more than one occasion, for an opinion as to whether Metro Council has juris diction in such matters as making grants to, for instance, the Pan-Am Games, and I have been intrigued by the reply cif my honourable friend, the Minister of Municipal Affairs who, though he usually seems quite willing to answer questions and discuss policies and programs at some length, seems very reluctant to engage in a discussion of that interesting and important, at the present time, point and he says, "No, he hasn't ari opinion to give on it and he won't under take to give one." Well I couldn't help but compare that with the position of the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources who a few days ago said very definitely in this House, that the legal position on a certain matter -- as a matter of fact we were discussing the questions of the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead -- the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources said very definitely the legal position is so and so, that's it and the law officers of the Crown have said that's it.

And then just today, my Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs himself in dis cussing this same question said, "That is the position, that's what the law officers of the Crown have said. " Well now, Madam Speaker, I simply ask my honourable friend, why can't he refer this question to the law officers of the Crown, and provide an answer to the Assembly,

596 March 15th, 1965 (MR. CAMPBELL cont'd) ....... because this matter of the Pan-Am Games is going to be coming up for discussion likely in a short time again and surely that's an important consider ation in discussing that very interesting subject? Surely my honourable friend could get the law officers of the Crown to give an opinion on .that matter.

I can recognize that in spite of his own admitted legal talents that he doesn't want to be giving the legal opinions for the government here, especially not on short notice, but we have the Honou rable the Attorney General sitting here and available to the government and to the House at any time even though I've not been successful in persuading him to give me some answers on some questions. I'm sure that my honourable friend, his colleague, could persuade him in short order to get an answer to this question. See what the law officers of the Crown say and I, along with my honourable friend from St.

George, give notice now that when we return to the Pan-Am Games discussion in here I will join with my honourable friend from St. George in pressing for an answer to that question. Surely with all the legal talent that we have in the department, and that the Metro itself has, that we can get an answer to this question. Surely it's not so involved that the law officers of the Crown can't tell us what the situation is and that fairly definitely and in a fairly short time. MR. MARK G.

SMERCHANSKI (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I wish to mention some thing on Bill No. 38 and more in line with what the Honourable Member of Assiniboia has mentioned. And that is that the Red River Exhibition, it will be perfectly all right for Metro to guarantee these bonds if everything is in order and there's no default of any such guarantee but in the event of a default in a payment by the Red River Exhibition, then there's an onus placed on the member. municipalities to acknowledge and pay up the deficit on which they have had no opportunity to be responsible for.

In other words, it would make the member munici palities have t9 pay for a deficit that would have been created only by the actions of the Metropolitan Council and I think that there is a certain amount of danger involved in this. It's quite all right to say, well the Red River Exhibition will always show a profit, or it is operating at a profit.

That may be well, but sooner or later if you run into very ambitious schemes in connection with the Red River Exhibition, you may be faced with a loss and then Metro may have to pick up the loss and if these bonds have been guaranteed by Metro, so Metro would have to make up the deficit.

Then the next issue that will come is that the Metropolitan form of government may be asked to support the bonds for the Winnipeg Art Gallery or the Winnipeg Ballet and I think that these are just as important and just as worthwhile as the Red River Exhibition and I feel that there is a precedent going to be set here which I truly think is more the responsibility of the Provincial Government rather than the responsibility of Metro.

I think that in view of the high tax structure that the metropolitan form of government is costing the average taxpayer in Metro Winnipeg is high enough and I think that we should not saddle the taxpayer in Metro with any unforeseen additional tax commitments which could result in the event of any loss created by the Red River Exhibition and I am not saying anything about the purpose of the Red River Exhibition.

I think it's a good worthwhile association but I honestly do not think that Metro should have to guarantee any bonds or any debenture issue to this association and it rightfully should come from the province. MR. SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the, my honourable friend the Minister of Municipal Affairs, if he is not in a position to give us an intelligent answer to the question that has been posed to him as to certain legal aspects of the impact of the bill, I wonder if when he gets up to answer the questions, can he tell the House how we are to be expected to vote intelligently on the bill.

After all is said and done, Madam Speaker, Metro is a creature of this government and as such I think they are entitled to know some of the answers that have been asked. It seems as if my honourable friend holds the position that because of the fact that the government legislators make the laws that by the same token they are not expected to interpret them and that may be so to some extent but I think that in this case, immediately before a vote comes we should have the answers in order for us to vote intelligently. MR.

GRAY: Madam Speaker, firstly I want to declare personally that I am opposed to the Pan-American Games. I think we have enough sport activities in Canada during 1967 rather than this and expect a deficit of over $3 million according to the press. I would rather have built another building to perpetuate the memory of the year. To have the Pan-Amerkan Games here when Montreal has one, and Toronto has one, and Vancouver has one, will not add anything as far as Winnipeg contribution. So definitely I want to declare myself opposed to the I I

March 15th, 1965 597 (MR. GRAY cont'd) ....... whole thing. And then if you are opposed to it then the question of the Metro aJild the City and the Province and the Federal Government will be settled. There· are many institutions that could be built for our future generations and in a hundred years from now they will have something to show but they will have nothing to show with the Pan-American Games. I am definitely opposed to those no matter which way it goes.

I am against it personally, and I think that this is absolutely foolish on the part of all govern ments to worry about it, who is going to cover the deficit, particularly when they know there is going to be a deficit. So I think let's concentrate our efforts for the many millions of dollars whieh we expect to lose and the millions of dollars which we are spending every year, let's concentrate on other institutions like libraries, and buildings for culture, buildings for art, buildin:gs for drama, something to leave our generation something that they could see.

The Pan-American Games as far as I am concerned -- probably to some people accuse me that I am not a sport '-- maybe they will be right but I think it will be a waste of money because we have enough sport as it is throughout Canada now. MR . S. PETERS (Elmwood): I would just like to say a few words in connection with this bill. As has been stated earlier, Metropolitan government is a creature of this legis lature.

It hasn't worked as well as people had hoped it would work and as was stated by the Member from Assiniboia, that all that is left now is the garbage collection, the fire depart ment and the police departments that Metro is not responsible for. I would think that the ' Minister of Municipal Affairs would start thinking now of getting the municipalities together and getting rid of Metro and having total amalgamation. MR. FROESE: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead that the debate be adjourned.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The second reading of Bill No. 22, the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville) presented Bill No. 22,

an Act to amend The Rivers and Streams Act, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. HUTTON: There are two fairly important sections in here, the one deals with the definition of a river and stream, and in view of the growing importance of the lesser streams and creeks and even drainage ditches within Metropolitan Winnipeg, it has been made broad enough to include all such streams, creeks, canals, drainage ditches, etcetera.

There's a growing concern by the area municipalities in the Rivers and Streams Protection Authority about the impingement of development on the natural water courses, especially within the Metropolitan area. If by any chance the ability to develop and maintain these surface water courses aJild natural water courses should be lost, it could mean tens of millions of dollars in the provision of storm sewers, costly storm sewers, in the future.

So it was with very real concern on the part of the area municipalities that we are extending the jurisdiction of the Board, or the Protection Authority, over these lesser streams. The second part of the bill provides for a

schedule of fees to be charged to those people who are making application or taking out permits for buildings in areas that come under the jurisdiction of the Rivers and Streams Protection Authority. The monies will be used to help defray the costs of studies such as soil mechanic studies that they must carry out to determine the stability of the river banks. There are very many costly buildings now going up along the rivers, both rivers·, and they should not be constructed unless adequate studies are carried out beforehm1d.

The area municipalities feel that rather than the taxpayers in their munici palities carrying the financial cost of these studies, that those who are making application and who want to develop these properties should contribute towards the cost of the studies that are necessary. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Madam Speaker, there's nothing overly objectionable about this bill, but I was wondering whether the Hono urable Minister has taken into consideration the impact that this definition of a river CaJil have?

A natural water course throughout the years has been defined quite well in our courts and case law and insofar as common law is concerned. I'm just wondering if he includes all man-made projects in that definition, and if he has whether the net result wouldn't be that you'd be just as responsible under those laws for any man-made channel or ditch as you would be in connectio n with a river or stream? I haven't had the oppor tunity to look into this too carefully but it appears to me that by widening that particular

598 March 15th, 1965 (MR. HRYHORCZUK cont'd) ........ definition you may be asking for a great deal more than appears on the surface. Insofar as the permits and authorities are concerned, it's understandable that this is only applicable I believe to a designated area, is it not, where the Lieutenant-Governor-in Council or the Minister designates a certain area then this particular matter of tariff comes in, but where there is no designated area, then this would not apply.

And yet, Madam Speaker, I believe that at present there are provisions in this particular Act where anybody that's being hurt by some interference with a natural water course or even by surface water can ask the Minister for assistance or a ruling. There's also, I believe, a provision where you can ask for a permit to do some construction on a natural water course or on a man-made channel -- where you have to have permission. This wouldn't cover that if it was outside a designated area. That •s my

interpretation of this particular subsection. It app('lars to me that the government is sweeping out all the corners it can to raise all the revenue that they can find. This is about the sixth bill that covers permits and fees and I don •t see why we couldn •t give the public of the Province of Manitoba some services without asking them to pay for it. After all, we•re .the government of the Province of Manitoba, and it appears it won't be long before there won't be a service performed by the government with out a fee having to be paid.

I am not quite sure whether it is the rule that the Lieutenant Governor-in.-Council sets the fees in cases of this nature. Has the Minister ever considered t�e possibility or the wisdom of having the Legislature set the tariff of fees. · MR. CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, I have a couple of questions .that I. would like to ask the Minister to consider when he closes the debate on this bill. First and foremost, I'm aware that there is an authority as defined by The .Rivers and Streams Act in the Metropolitan area. I believe there is only one authority in this area under that definition.

Are there some others in the Province of Manitoba that have been set up under that definition and, if so, could the Minister tell us where they are? Then with regard to the question of the tariff of fees, I understood the Minister to mention the two rivers in particular and the desirability of restricting building close to the banks of those rivers.

Well my thought would be that with the exception of the small area downtown, that those sites are largely taken up now as far as the present areas are concerned. � Aren •t they largely taken up by private dwellings and won •t the future, to the extent that there are some vacant spaces still, won't they be mainly private dwellings? If that's the case, then is it the intention to load the cost of all these studies and surveys that the Minister envisions on private individuals who might be planning to have a river site to build on?

I Now I recognize that when the floodway goes through, and other developmental works of that nature, that perhaps there1ll be desirable sites for building there and that they might be added, but at the present time, I thought the Minister had mentioned mainly the two rivers in the Metropolitan area. MR. SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, the bill expands the definition in meaning of river and stream to include those following such as drainage ditches and natural water courses and so on.

I would ask the Minister if there is any expansion or increase in the authority of his department to deal with problems that arise from interference with natural water courses? I suspect that this is a problem that's all too familiar to a good many members, namely, that often one finds that a property owner throws up a dike or an interference on a natural water course, the neighbour has apparently no recourse except for civil suit. It is my understanding that the department feels it doesn't have enough authority to deal with these impoundments that might be thrown up on a natural water course.

Well a civil suit isn •t a very practical solution for many people. I would simply ask the. Minister if this bill would have any impact or any effect with regard to this kind of problem? MR. HILLHOUSE: Madam, there's only one thing that I want to raise and that is this, that I realize that the definition of a river and stream only applies to

Part Ill of the Act but that is the only

part in that Act where a river and stream is defined. Now I want it made abundantly clear that that definition you are using in

Part Ill is not applicable to the other part of the Act. I don 1t think it is, but I want to be clear on that fact. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. MR. HUTTON: In respect to the fees, these monies do not accrue to the government, to the Consolidated Fund. This would allow the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council to set a

schedule of fees that the authority could levy, and it will save the municipalities, the member municipalities in the authority, the necessity of contributing the total cost of the studies to be

March 15th, 1965 599 (MR. HUT TON cont 'd) ...... . carried out. The idea is not to have total restriction, but it's to make sure that the type of development that takes place on any given location along the rivers or streams is the type of construction that is best suited for the stability of soil that exists in that area.

Now I think that the municipalities are thinking in terms of something like one-fortieth of one per cent as the value of the building to be -- the estimated value of the building to be constructed, so it isn •t a very heavy tariff in any case, and I think that there is some equity .in the fact that those people who want to develop these river bank properties .should include the cost of some of these studies that should be carried out before they go ahead -- include them in the cost of construction.

Now what is concerning the River and Streams Protection Authority are the number of high-rise apartment blocks that are going up on what is known indeed as a very unstable soil condition, and their concern is that we should be pretty sure, more certain than we are at present, that adequate investigation has been carried out. Now the question raised by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead falls properly under The Water Rights Act and we had very good intentions of getting The Water Rights Act revised.

Unfortunately, we weren't abl,e to get it done for this session but the intention is to get it revised as soon as the Legislative Counsel is able to do it--(Interjection)--I 'm afraid we won't be presenting it at this session of the Legislature--(Interjection)--all summer. The rivers and streams -- the Honourable Member for Selkirk raised the point that I just don •t feel·-- the definition of rivers and streams that is given here is for certain applicable in the area for which the authority No. 1 is responsible. Beyond that I cannot tell you, Sir, but there is no application of this Act beyond the one area.

There is only one protection authority functioning in the Province of Manitoba at the present time, that is Protection Authority No. 1. It has been expanded beyond what it used to be to include all of the municipa lities ,contiguous to the Red and Assiniboine Rivers within the Metropolitan area. MADAM SPEAKE R put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MH. HUTTON presented Bill No. 56,

an Act to amend The Department of Agriculture and Conservation Act, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MH. HUTTON: Madam Speaker, this is a bill which might keep us here all summer. This amendment to the departmental Act would authorize the department to make grants to municipalities where due to a water control work the municipality has suffered an unusual loss in revenue. Unusual loss in revenue as defined by the government means loss of revenue in excess of one per cent of the total annual revenues of a municipality.

The proposal for an adjustment grant to municipalities affected by such works of such magnitude is that a grant should be calculated on t.he basis of a five-year period; that it should be the difference between the actual loss in revenues sustained by the municipality and one per cent, that amount over a five-year period and discounted at six per cent interest and the payment made in one lump sum. Under this formula there are two municipalities on the Red River Floodway which qualify, St. Clements and Springfield. The others, Ritchot, St. Boniface, East St. Paul, St.

Vital and :i<'ort Garry all sustained much less than a one per cent loss in revenue. In the case ofthe Shellmouth Reservoir, both Shellmouth Municipality and Shell River have qualified. Ih the case of the Portage Diversion, the Municipality of Portage sustained somewhat less than one per cent loss· in their total revenues.

I must confess that the Munici pality of Portage is one of the largest municipalities and certainly the wealthiest municipality in Manitoba, and therefore, even though their loss in revenue is rather substantial, still the relevant effect upon their municipality is not greater than in the case of smaller municipalities who lost lesser amounts. I don't think that there's very much more I can say in developing the proposal here. I know that others will have a great deal to say, and I think I'll sit down and take some advice. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MH.

MOLGAT: I am happy that the Minister has given us somewhat more detailed an idea of what he means by "serious loss to tax revenues", because when this was discussed first of all in Committee and when we received the copies of this bill it appeared to us that that terminology was entirely too vague to provide any protection whatever for the municipali ties. So, presumably now, by "serious loss to tax revenues" as worded in the Act, the Minister means in effect one per cent of the total annual revenues of the municipality. Is this what -- I beg your pardon?

600 March 15th, 1965 MR. HUTTON: ... .. .. in excess. MR. MOLGAT: In excess. I wonder then why this would not be put into the Act as such? There may be some technical reasons why the Minister feels it shouldn't be there, but I would think that the preferable arrangement would be instead of Clause (e), simply saying "the establishing of a formula, 11 the formula should be set out, so that there will be no argu ment then at a later date as to exactly what the arrangement is. One of the very important aspects here is to make sure that all municipalities are treated alike. This, then, brings on some of the other problems which I think may arise here. This is specifically

an Act regarding the Department of Agriculture and Conservation, but there are other departments of the government who are purchasing land. What happens if several departments end up by owning land in a municipality, apart from the Department of Agriculture and Conservation? Will they total these other lands that are owned by the Crown in order to arrive at the one per cent or is this to be strictly a Department of Agriculture ..•.... ?

It would seem to me that in fairness to the municipalities it should take in all departments; in other words, that any land taken over by the Crown for whatever purpose they may be taken over, be included in the formula. Possibly that is the inten tion of the government, but to this date it has not been spelled out and I think that it should. I wonder if the Minister could advise the House as well, as to the basis of the one per cent. Was this discussed with the municipalities at all? How was this figure arrived at?

It would seem to me to be a- - while one per cent doesnit sound like much money, it can, I think, in a number of municipalities really amount to a fair amount of dollars and cents. Was this done in consultation with the municipalities, and is there the approval of the municipal organizations to this particular formula? MR . PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, it seems to me that this is another incidence where we members of the Legislature are pretty well called upon to accept what has already been done by the Government of the Province of Manitoba. We're dealing with an amendment to

an Act here, which sets up provisions to consider a formula as established by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council to pay grants to municipalities, but notwithstanding whether this Act passes or not, Madam Speaker, the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture has already told us what the formula is that the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council has established. I resent this very much. This has happened on a couple of occasions already in this session, where we1ve heard of things being done before we, members of this Legislature, approve of them being done.

I realize that under our British system of government we have a majority government, at least here in the Province of Manitoba. But I would suggest, I would suggest that even • though we have a majority government here in Manitoba, that that government at least should give sufficient courtesy to the Legislative Assembly and not to produce .. ... .. before legisla- tion is passed; at least, Madam Speaker, not until it's adopted in principle following second reading. And I want to raise my objections once again to this arbitrary Act of the government we have in Manitoba at the present time.

And I think once again the cart is being placed before the horse so far as the government is concerned. Oh, my honourable friend, Madam Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture, can smile at me raising this particular point, but I would suggest to my honourable friend when he or when a few of his party are on this side of the House in opposition before too long he may be raising similar points and condemning a government on that side, if it were to pursue the same course as is being done by the government opposite today. --(Interjection)--Pardon?

Oh, I 1m afraid -- not afraid, I'm satisfied that the Honourable Member for Selkirk and the party he represents certainly won •t be across the hall. Apart from that, Madam Speaker, dealing with this particular bill, now that we have apparently heard what the formula is going to be, I want to ask the Honourable Minister why, or is there some right of appeal to the Lieutenant-Governor or the Minister in respect of the formula? Now the Minister has said that the formula will be one per cent.

I respectfully suggest, Madam Speaker, that the one per cent which apparently has been arbitrarily agreed upon, could work hardship on various municipalities of differing natures.

What might be one per cent of the revenue or the area in one municipality could impose a different hardship on that municipality than it could in another one, and I suggest that within the formula, if there isn •t already, that the government should give some consideration to having a board of arbitration or some pro vision where an appeal could be made to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council's formula, or as to how that applies to any municipality. Because apparently, it seems to me, that from the Minister's statement and also from the reading of the Act itself, this can be arbitrarily done without consultation.

I note that in the portion of the bill, that deals with the school board I I I I

March 15th, 1965 601 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) .. .....

section of it, the legislation does not give to the municipal council the power to apportion to the school district, but gives this to another body, the municipal board. So I would suggest that the government should consider this viewpoint in order that there may be more satisfaction to the municipalities. These are just a few points that I have to raise. I still would like to see a more clearly definition of the word "serious" in the legislation itself.

I don •t think, Madam Speaker, that when we •re dealing with the legislation which it states, "pay a grant to municipalities as com pensation fo:r serious loss of tax revenues", I don't think this is the terminology that should be in legislation. If the Honourable the Minister and his formula is to be the formula, let•s put it into legislation or let •s have a more clear definition of "serious" because it can be relative to the larger or smaller municipality as what, in their opinion, is serious loss of compensation. I make these few comments now for the consideration of the Minister.

Madam Speaker, I'm not going to oppose the bill going to second reading, and I hope at that particular time we may hear representations from the municipalities that are affected, because the Minister knows the members of the House -- now within my own constituency, some of the municipalities he mentioned ru·e part, and may have comments to make on this particular bill. MR. GRAY: Madrun Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister which is a minor question but I'd like to get cleared up. 7(a) "drunages paid to the municipalities", 7(

b) it's paid to the schools, different kind of schools. Why the difference? The municipalities are responsible for the schools. Why have the two sections? I don't think it's anything serious, but as one that doesn't know the details on which, I'd like to be informed. MR. CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, the Honourable the Minister seemed to anticipate when he was finishing his remarks that there might be some considerable discussion with regard to this bill, and evidently he isn •t going to be disappointed.

I would like to add my word to those who have mentioned the fact that the word "serious" should be more carefully defined, and defined in the legislation. I listened pretty carefully to my honourable friend when he spoke on the bill, and I thought he defined the word "unusual". I didn't hear a definition of "serious". Now, if serious means unusual, then I guess we have the definition of "serious". But, seriously, I think we should have a better understanding of what it is, as contained in this Act, and I would think the formula should be put right into the Act.

Madam Speaker, this question of compensation for tax revenues to municipalities is certainly not new. It's been before the government of the various provinces for a long time and certainly before the Federal Government for a long time. I can well recall when no taxes were paid on provincial government buildings, and even in the early days they weren't paid even on the commercial institutions.

The municipalities raised the question, quite properly in their view -- seemed to in the course of time be felt to be proper from governing bodies as well, that they should have, the municipalities should have, some revenue from these buildings and other properties that were acquired in their municipalities and gradually, so far as Manitoba was concerned, we came along to the position of where we first paid on the commercial operations and then had a definition whereby if they were revenue producing, there was some money paid on them and so on and so on and so on. Gradually that was expanded, that theory.

But with all due respect to the Minister's position in this matter, I think there's a great difference between the position of a municipality that has situated in it an institution or a building or has some property acquired in it, particularly if there are people employed there, there •s a great difference so far as the municipality is concerned and the municipal taxpayers in that situation and when the government goes in as in the case of the Portage la Prairie diversion and arbitrarily takes out of production a certain amount of high revenue producing land.

I•d like to ask the Minister just what the estimate is, so far as Portage la Prairie muni cipality is concerned. I believe it's something in the nature of 8 or 9 thousand dollars, and surely when the government moves in and takes this land right out of production, thereby off the tax roll, surely they should make compensation. In my opinion the taking of the land is bad enough to start with, particularly when it's for a purpose that the local people do not agree with.

But then to take it for those purposes and then say at the srune time, well because there isn't a certain runount of tax revenue going to be lost, we won't pay any compensation for the loss of tax at all. I think that is very arbitrary. As far as the level at which my honourable friend says that it will be paid, I understood him to say that it would be paid if it was in excess of one per cent. Does that mean that just the excess over one per cent will be paid or does it mean that if it's in excess of one per cent that the whole runount will be paid? So it's just the excess over one per cent.

602 March 15th, 1965 (MR. CAMPBELL cont'd) ...... . Well now, Madam Speaker, surely this is a very dictatorial stand for the government to take that they say that every municipality, regardless of where it is or what the purpose, whether they agree. with it or not, whether it's against their wishes or in conformity with their own judgment in the matter, the government will walk in and will say, "you must make a donation of at least one per cent of your annual tax revenue for our purpose.

" Now I argue at times that the government is facing some serious financial problems, if it keeps on without mending its ways, but surely we haven't arrived yet at the position where we have to ask the municipalities, even one that my honourable friend characterizes as a rich one like Portage la Prairie, where we ask them to finance the government.

I would like to make an appeal to my genial friend, the Minister of Agriculture and Conservation, to be a little more, a little more generous with these municipalities and having disturbed the situation so great, having put so many people to trouble and loss, that at least they compensate them in full for the lack of tax revenues. And then so far as the question as to whom it should be paid, I would think, ·and I gather this is in line with the thinking of the Leader of the New Democratic Party, I would think that the payments should go to the munici pality.

It appears to me from reading the bill that the intention is to ask the municipal board to allocate the revenues to the various school districts. Well, it's to the municipality that the revenues go now; surely they could be handed over to the municipality and obviate the necessity of the board making an apportionment of it. MR.

SCHREYER: Since this bill has to do with the problem of municipalities and school districts that lost some amount of taxable assessmttnt and tax revenue as a result of the floodway, and since the floodway has to do particularly with the constituencies of Springfield and Brokenhead, it is not unnatural that I was interested in the content of Bill 56.

In fact, Madam Speaker, it is the Member for Springfield and myself-- we do team up occasionally, and as I recall it was four years ago when I sponsored a resolution in this Chamber and it was amended, the sense wasn't destroyed, it was changed slightly by the Member for Springfield asking -- the resolution asked for the government of the province to take the necessary steps to compensate the municipalities for loss of revenue as a result of • � I I the floodway. We must understand that the floodway is not of local benefit to these municipali- I ties, therefore why should they sustain the tax loss.

So I'm glad to see Bill 56 although I have the right to ask a question -- why it took four years, four years, to get this legislation before us. In the meantime, these municipalities have lost a certain amount of revenue for each of the last three years without compensation and I don •t suspect that this bill has any retroactive effect. I'd be surprised if it did. � Now, I really don't have any objection to the concept here that the municipal boards should earmark the monies paid by the Consolidated Fund.

After all, it is school districts that are being hit as hard as the municipalities, in fact some of the school districts, and I'm sure honourable members can understand this, some school districts are going to feel the impact of the loss of revenue more than the municipalities, so I see nothing wrong with ear- marking being done by the municipal boards.

In fact on that very point, Madam Speaker, I I want to point out to the Minister that when he says that everything, all the loss over one per cent shall be reimbursed, this is not quite good enough, in this sense, that what is one per cent loss to a municipality might be as high as 10, 15 or 20 per cent loss to a school district. For example, under tne terms of this legislation, the Municipality of St. Clements will be re imbursed for its loss of tax revenue over one per cent of its total.

This is pretty fair but the school district of Gonor which is inside the municipality, may have to sustain a loss of as high as 10 or 15 per cent of its school district revenue before this formula comes into effect and so, and I admit it would be more difficult, but it would have been much more equitable to have this formula based on impact to school district rather than on impact to municipality. Now if the Minister is really keen and anxious to deal with inequity here is a nice problem for him to work on. MR.

FROESE: Madam Speaker, the bill is of interest to me as well, since at some future date there might be some waterworks development in the area where I come from. I just wonder, will this cover projects that are dealt with by the Federal Government as well? Will the Provincial Government make compensation in a case like that? I would like to see the term "water control works" defined a little bit better. Maybe the Minister could tell us just what he means by water control works in

Section 5. Will this also cover areas like Grand Rapids where they built the new Hydro plant and where they flooded many acres of land which I

March 15th, 1965 603 (MR. FROESE cont•d) .. ..... don't think are in a.municipality but are local government dis- tricts? It. just mentions municipality here but will those areas stand to gain by this legislation as well? When revisions are made as to the losses sustained, will these be made annually and will the old values apply or will new values be made when revision.is done?

MR. , HUTTON: I'd like to assure my good friend, the Le.ader of the NDP, that I was in fact trying to be courteous when I gave the House here the proposed settlement that the government was contemplating and I did so because we•d like to have it discussed.

Because this was a very difficult thing and I realize that .four years is a long time, but it was a very difficult problem to try and arrive at a basis on which we could give consideration to the impact of these large public works without establishing a precedent of the government being responsible for loss of tax revenue every time a public work was undertaken. I think you can appreciate the fact that I don't think it would be a very good thing for the public of Manitoba if such a contingent liability were to rest on the government every time it undertook a public work.

I think it would tend to stifle development projects. So the problem was to find what appeared to be a fair and equitable basis on which consideration, financial consideration, could be given to municipalities under unusual circumstances or where serious tax loss was incurred. We arrived at one per cent. The Honourable .Member for Lakeside says it's a dictatorial stand, it's an arbitrary stand. I admit it -- we admit it. What is unusual loss? What's serious loss? We came down at one per cent. You might come down at half of one per cent.

If we came down at half of one per cent the Municipality for Portage would qualify for consider ation but then some others would be left out. For instances, I think I have some figures here -- in the case of St. Vital for instance, we•d have to come down at less than one-third of one per cent before that municipality would qualify -- St. Vital--(lnterjection)--oh, in the case of St. Boniface their tax loss was $168 in 1961. Now these are just rough estimates. So it is an arbitrary dt3cision, the best one we could make. Now we •re not saying that it's right. We think it's right.

I have invited the Reeve of Portage Municipality to come to Committee. Mr. Adrain was at the meeting that we had up at Neepawa last week in respect to the implementation of the provincial waterways policy. I expect that he will be here representing the Municipality of Portage when this bill is being considered in Committee. Other municipalities may very well come in. We did carry out some discussion. I had two meetings with the municipalities involved in the Red River Floodway and we had a meeting with the Municipalities of Shellmouth and Shell River.

They _ _: I must confess, Madam Speaker, that the municipalities would have liked more.' Some of the municipalities on the Red River diversion, or affected by the Red River diversion, those that qualified were rt1asonably satisfied. I think everybody would have liked more. But this represents the best thinking that we have given to the subject over some period of time and we think provides an adjustment grant that can be used by the municipalities and by the school districts so that it will buffer the initial impact of this kind of loss in revenuE).

In the case of the Red River diversion, it is proposed that the amounts be calculated on the basis of the loss of revenue that took place in 1961. This would be adjusted for interest accruing to these monies so that there is really no loss in revenue because of the delay in arriving at a formula. In the case of the Shellmouth Reservoir, the basis of the calculation would be at the time that the land was taken by the Crown and the same would apply in the case of the Portage diversion.

I would say that we want to be very careful about establishing this precedent in the case of small reservoirs for instance, which might have quite an impact on a local school district for instance, and then it would be a question of whether you were going to build that reservoir or whether the school district was going to be sustained.

We know that, due to changing times and changing organizations, changing scenes, that local organization especially in terms of school districts is changing from day to day, certainly from year to year, and I think that it would be very bad government if we were to attempt to sustain local organization on indefinitely into the future because they were affected by any type of public work.

It is for this reason that we have rejected the idea of the cumulative effect of public works, because if you were to take all the different public works that are carried out in terms of highways and bridges and by-passes, etcetera, etcetera, it would be very easy to claim unusual loss of tax revenue or serious loss of tax revenue, and I think one doesn •t want to forget that a lot of public works that in the first instance may reduce the revenue of the municipality, over the long run may substantially increase it too and it isn•t easy for anybody to determine accurately at this time in history, or at any time in history, what the exact financial impact is going to be on the area in which a public work is undertaken.

604 March 15th, 1965 MR. SCHREYER: I wonder if the Minister would permit two questions. First of all, is this bill or the provisions of this bill to have effect for a five-year period only? In other words, is there a five-year limit on this money to be paid out? And secondly, would he like to comment on the impact on school districts as opposed to municipalities? MR. HUTTON: Madam Speaker, the bill just gives us the authority to establish a formula. It doesn't spell it out.

Tjle second thing -- the five-year, the payment, the lump sum payment calculated over a five-year period, is just the proposed formula that we have developed and proposed to the municipalities. In the case of the floodway there was only one school district that was really faced with a problem and that was Gonor School District, and they're faced with the necessity of reorganization up there and we have made--(Interjection)- yes, that's true. We have made -- tried to assist. My depart ment, while the floodway was under construction, tried to assist them by providing transpor tation.

When the actual construction of the floodway was completed in that area the Depa rtment of Education moved in and gave I think very generous assistance to help them during the intervening period, while reorganization of the school districts can take place. I made a specific point of requesting through the municipalities of any school districts along the floodway that needed special help. Gonor was the only school district that was reported to me in this condition. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. McLEAN presented Bill No. 57,

an Act to amend The Public Libraries Act, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, if I can direct the members' attention to some spiritual matters, I would like to say that there are four points covered by this bill. First, this will allow a local government district to become part of a regional library. This is accomplished by virtue of a definition of municipalities which is contained in this bill and which would allow one of the local government districts, which is permitted to become a municipal library, to become part of a regional library.

There are certain sections in the bill which relate only to procedural approval of bylaws. This is a technical matter. The by laws have to be approved at the present time and this simply sets out in a rather better form the procedure for having those approvals given. The Local Government District of Churchill is added to the local government districts that may have, subject to complying with the general requirements of the Act, a municipal library.

And the fourth point is a provision which would allow a municipality which is included in a regional library to increase the amount of money that it may contribute toward the operation of the regional library to which it belongs.

At the present time, where there are two or more municipalities forming a regional library, they contribute toward the expense of the regional library and there is a somewhat complicated provision which relates their contri bution to their relative populations, and that has worked quite satisfactorily until we encountered the regional library of Assiniboine River, where there has been a rapidly expanding population in Assiniboia -- a more rapidly expanding population than in Charleswood, which is the other municipality in that particular region, and with the result that the relating their proportionate expenses to the 1961 census tends to make it difficult for them to operate.

The people in Assiniboia, that is the council and those directly associated with the formal operation of the library, have brought the problem to our attention and we are proposing in this bill a provision which would allow any municipality -- although I would expect that Assiniboia would be the first to make use of it -- to increase their contribution beyond that which their regular pro portion would be on the basis of the arrangements in the Act, subject always to the fact that they will not be required and indeed cannot contribute more than one mill on their assessment.

That limit exists and no change is being made there. As I say, this would be particularly helpful to the Assiniboine River regional library at the present time, because of this dis proportion caused by the rapidly expanding population in Assiniboia. It would be of course also available if similar situations were to arise in the future in regional libraries containing municipalities, particularly suburban municipalities, where there is an uneven increase in their population and where there may be some disposition for a municipality to increase the contribution it would normally make to the regional library. MR.

HRYHORCZUK: Madam Speaker, only a couple of questions I would like to ask the Honourable Minister. I notice that in widening the definition of municipality, there are five local government districts added in the definition. We have other local government dis tricts in the Province of Manitoba and some of them have fairly large settlements within their

March 15 th, 1965 605 (MR. HRYHORCZUK cont'd) ....... areas. Is there any provision in the Act whereby these settlements could establish libraries? That is question number one. The other is, the Minister stated that at presen t the esta blishment of a library requires the approval of the Minister. I don •t see tliat provision in the present Act and it would appear that this is a new provision, and if it is I'd be interested to know why the Minister is asking for this particular provis ion.

It seems to me that in the past whenever we had a talk about municipal and regional libraries, we always heard a good word about the Municipal and Public Utility Board who were the authority before the Municipal Board was es tablished. Is there some particular reason why the Mini<;ter should now change his mind and ask for the authority to approve before the libraries are established? MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, if there are no other questions. Up until last year there was no provision under which a local government district could vote on and establish a municipal library.

There was interest expressed from a number of local government districts which are esse ntially towns or -- yes, towns. I'm thinking of places like Thompson, Snow Lake, Pinawa, and quite frankly, we proposed a provision which was approved, which would allow those local government districts that had indicated a real interest in considering a library, into the Act. And it was just a case of putting into the Act, by name, the local govern ment districts where there was some indication and an interest.

And last year the Local Government Districts of Lynn Lake, Pinawa, Snow Lake and Mystery Lake or Thom pson, were put in. And this year, Churchill is being added. I can•t give any rationale. I think it would not be practical for example to include the Local Government District of Consul, which is a vast territory, although if there was some part of that territory where there was a real interest indicated, certainly that could be done.

I can give no other explanation than that, except that these are the places where interest in libraries has been indicated, where they have what is in effect a town and where they could, if they saw fit to do so, support a public library if it were approved. With regard to the approval, I was just quickly getting out the Act. I think the Honour able Member for Ethelbert-Plains will find that this is approval of bylaws only, prior to sub mission.

It relates to the matter of approving them from a standpoint of form and otherwise, and we are not proposing to add anything in that reference here, but it's really the approval of the bylaw prior to its submission to a vote of the res ident electors in the particular munici pality concerned. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. McLEAN presented Bill No. 24,

an Act to amend The County Courts Act, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, there are two matters dealt with in this bill. The first has to do with the authorization that is sometimes require d whereby a county court judge appointed to a judicial district is asked to act in a district other than the one to which he is appointed.

The authority for his so acting at the present time is an Order-in-Council of the Lieutenant-Gover nor-in- Council and we are proposing to substitute for the order of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council an order or direction of the Attorney-General. These are formalities, they happen perhaps for temporary, periods, holiday time , and otherwise, or other circumstances and it is thought that it would be sufficient if that request and authority could be given by the Attorney-General rather than having to have an Order-in-Council.

The second matter deals with the repeal of some sections which the House approved a year ago. A1t that time, it was our intention, and I presented the bill, which would have es tablished the system whereby the county court judges, who are appointed of course by the Governor-in--Council at Ottawa, that they would be appointed as county court judges for the province, as distinct from being appointed to a particular judicial district. And that from that point forward they would then be as it were assi gned by the Attorney-General to a particular judicial district within the province.

It was my understanding, and I now have to confess mis takenly, that this was the system which was in operation in Alberta and in Saskatchewan. In any event, the legislation was approved by the House to come into force on proclamation.

But on drawing the matter to the attention of the Minister of Justice, he informed us that he didn •t approve of that type of legislation, that he felt that the appointment of the county court judge to the particular judicial district should be made by the Governor-in-Council at Ottawa, and in view of that we have not proclaimed the particular provisions of the bill that was here a year ago and we •re now suggesting that those sections be repealed, so that they will no longer form

606 March 15 th, 1965 (MR. McLEAN cont1d) ... .. .. part of our Act. We haven 't proclaimed them. We don't intend· to use them . We 1ve been advised that they do not meet the wishes or the principles are not satisfactory to the Minister of Justice, and I think the handiest way is for us simply to repeal them and let it go at that. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Madam Speaker, both this bill and the one that follows it, No. 25, are pretty well along the same lines. I am not altogether happy about the change from the Lieutenant-Gover nor-in-Council to the Attorney-General.

I think the assignm ent of judges to sit on other ca ses in other jurisdictions is fairly important , and I doubt whether it is wise for an Attorney-General to take the responsibility upon his own shoulders to ma ke such assignment. I think it is best left with the Lieutenant-Governor-i n-Council. I also note that there •s another change been ma de here, and that is that under the present law a local judge, in case he has a reason that he can't sit on any particular case or ma tter that com es before him , could ask any other county court judge, request him to come and take it over.

This has been struck out of the legislation; a local judge can no longer do that. Now, I can see or anticipate cases where it woold be important that som ething be done imme diately. Supposing a judge gets ill during a hearing or in the event som ething is before him or about to come before him, he could get assistance from another judge much sooner than to have to report the ma tter to the Attorney-General and then have the Attorney-General assign the judge. I don't think that either one of these provisions are an improvement on our present legislation. MR.

McLEAN: Madam Speaker, I appre ciate the force of what the Honourable the Member for Ethelbert-Plains has said with regard to the question of whether it is wise to leave the direction of a judge to the Attorney-General as distinct from the Lieutenant-Gov ernor in-Co uncil and one would have to acknowledge that there can be honest differences of opinion on that point.

Inasmuch , of course, as the Attorney-General generally is the one who recomm ends the Order-in-Council and in many instances it's a formality, there might be an argument for saying that it could mo re easily be done by the Attorney-General rather than in volving the time and the concern of a much larger number of people who in the final analysis, of course, have to take whatever advice they receive -- as a practical mat ter take the advice of the Attorney-General. As I say, it's a ma tter on which there may be a very honest difference of opinion and this is thought perhaps to comm end itself to us.

On the second point, I think the Honourable Member is misunderstanding because there is no intention to remove from the provision of The County Courts Act the authority which would allow a judge to ask another judge to act on his behalf, but if when we get into commit tee an

interpretation of this bill would indicate that the Honourable Member for Ethelbert-Plains has interpreted it in that way and that is the

interpretation, then I will be the first to say that it ought to be changed, because we had no intention of ma king that change. We were only intending to deal here with the order which is normally ma de by the Lieutenant-Governor-in Council. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . McLEAN presented Bill No . 25 ,

an Act to amend The CountY Courts Judges' Criminal Courts Act, for secon d reading. MADAM SPEAKE R presented the motion. MR . McLEAN : Madam Speaker, as the Honourable the Member for Ethelbert-Plains indicated, this bill is in some respe cts a companion bill to Bill No. 24, and would allow a judge who is authorized to act in a district other than the one to which he has been appointed, where he has been authorized to act in another district, to be the judge under -- to hold court under the provisions of The County Court Judges' Criminal Courts Act.

This is a Manitoba statute and establishes this particular court, and this would allow the judge who has been authorized to act in a district other than his own, to act in all respects so far as criminal matters are concerned, in the same way as he may act in civil matters . MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declar ed the motion carried . HON. CHARLES H. ·w iTNEY (Minister of Health) (Flin Flan) presented Bill No. 43,

an Act respecting the Ca re and Treatment of Mentally Disordered Persons and the Custody and Control of their Estates, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. WITNEY: Madam Speaker, the bill before us, No. 43, is quite a complex bill, and I trust that when we get into comm ittee that the detailed questions will be asked at that time, when we will have with us some of the professional people to explain fully for the members • I

March 15th, 1965 607 (MR. WITNEY co ilt1d) .... ... of the committee the methods of admittance to our hospitals in Manitoba. The general principle of the bill, though, is to make our mental hospital facilities as available as possible to all those people who are suffering from a mental illn ess, and also to allow them to go there either in two forms of admission, either on a non-compulsory basis or on a compulsory basis, and to do so without difficulty or stigma, to obtain help for the problem that they face.

The principle that we have here is basically enunciated by the principles that were brought down by the Legislative Commi ttee of the Ca nadian Mental Health Association in Ca nada, a committee that comprised psychiatrists and lawyers and lay people. As a matter of fact, the bill was held up for about a year until such time as the Legislative Commi ttee of the CMHA made its final determinations and we were able to take advantage of the thinking for 1964.

The principles that are outlined in this bill, the modes of admissi on and the inclusion of addiction, are principles that have been accepted in many other jurisdictions in Europe' and in this country, and we are now accepting them here in Manitoba. I'd like 'to draw to the attention of the House the fact that addiction to alcohol or to drugs is such that the person suffering is one who is either a danger to hill1self or a danger to others, and he does in fact eXhibit some of the symptoms of a mental disease.

Another principle that is enunciated in the Act before you, apart from the modes of admis sion and the inclusion of the principle of recognizing addiction of alcohol and of drugs is the fact thatthe persi:m who either enters the mental hospitals in Manitoba 'either as a non compulsory patient or a compulsory patient, now must be examined within a specified time period. Up to the institution of this bill there has been no time period, and we are recognizing now that a· patient who comes to us for assi stance must be given assistance within a specified time.

Included. in here, too, is what is termed the Minister 's Commi ttee, which will be an appeitl

section for both admiss ion and discharge -from our mental facilities in the province .

We do have in the present legislation what is known as a Board of Control, and it is permissi ble -- in this bili we are making the Minister's Commi ttee mandatory, and instead of terming it the Board of Control we are terming the committee the Ministe r's Committee, and people may appeal decisions of the Director of Psychiatric Services with respect to admiss ion and with respect to dis charge and with respeCt to movemen t of patients from one facility to another. · In the matter of the control of the estate, we have made one imp ortant change in principle.

At the present time anybody going into our mental facilities their estate is automa tically taken over or taken away from them . Now, under a non-compulsory admission unless the Superintendent of the hospital feels that the patient would benefit by having someone take over the estate, the estate remains in the hands of the person who has admitted himself to the hospital on an on-compulsory basis.

On a compulsory basis the :estate, after a period of 21 days , would be turned over to either an administrator of the Estates of the Mentally Incompetent if there was not a committee to take care of the estate for the person, or before 21 days if iri the opinion of the superintendent of the facility it would be of benefit to the patient to have the estate taken over. We have done away in this Act with the terminology that was in the other Acts that are now in force, of moron, imbecile and defective, and we have termed "mental retardate 11 which is a definition which is now accepted pretty well across the country.

There has been a considera ble amount of wor]> gone into this bill and a considerable amount of examination of the bills in Grea t Britain; in Alberta, in British Co lumbia, in Ontario and in Saskatchewan, and I feel that it is a step forward in the Province of Manitoba and recomm end it to the House. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gladstone, that the debate be adjourned. ' MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declaredthe motion carried. / MR. ROBLIN pres ented Bill No. 50,

an Act to amend The Insurance Corporations Tax Act, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. ROBLIN: There's very little I can add, Madam Spe aker, to the explanations that were given in Commi ttee of the Whole. This does not increase the provincial revenue in any way. It simply provides for a different system of collecting it within the province. This Act will not come into effect until other provinces have adopted similar legislation as has risen

608 March 15 th, 1965 (MR. ROBLIN cont'd) .... ... from the conferences of the superintendents of insurance on uni- formity. MR. SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, did the Honourable the First Minister say that it would not increase the revenues of the province, or -- it would not increase. The only question then, I think, Madam Speaker, that I have is, will the revenues be affected one way or another? I believe that the Honourable Minister said when it was introduced that the insurance com panies were asking for it. Was it this one?

Well then, my question is, will the revenues of the province be affected one way or another? MR. ROBLIN:_ If there are no more speakers, I can say tlle answer is no. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and afte.r a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . ROBLIN presented Bill No. 54,

an Act to amend The Insurance Act, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I think that the explanations in the Act pretty well set out what this bill attempts to do. There 's no principle in it in the usual sense; it merely con sists of a number of rather minor legislations that are being made to The Insurance Act to give greater certainty with respect to certain operations under the Act, and is one of these I bills that arise from consultations with superintendents of insurances across the country and the insurance industry.

If any member is interested in a particular clause or item in the bill, then I suggest that perhaps at Committee stage we can go into it further. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. WITNEY presented Bill No. 61 ,

an Act to amend The Health Services Act, for seco nd reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, is the Minister going to give any explanation of this bill? MR. WITNEY: Madam Speaker, all the schemes for hospital districts that have been adopted since July lst, 1958 provide for payments made by the Manitoba Hospital Commission on depreciation and interest payments to be applied toward the annual payment due on the I debentures.

In some areas, before July 1, 1958, this was not being done, and there was in fact two payments being ca rried forward for the same thing -- the levy was being carried for- ward and the money that was being paid by the Manitoba Hospital Commission was also being carried forward -- so we are now providing for the monies from the Manitobil Hospital Commission to be paid toward reduction of the debt, similar to those hospital schemes that have been adopted since July 1, 1958. - I MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I'd like to ask a question of the Minister . It seems to me there 's anothe r

section here in the bill regarding representation from Local Govern- ment Districts. What is the purpose of that change and is there a problem behind this? MR . WITNEY: Madam Speaker, it will only -- the Minister could appoint no one who was not a ratepayer only if there were no ratepayers in the area. Up in Churchill! we have a hospital up there that is in the Federal Government, around the camp up there, around the Fort.

It is in a school district and all the people in that area are employees of the Federal Government, they are not ratepayers ; and yet the Federal Government and the Provincial Government are all contributing toward that hospital and we feel that it would be of advantage to be able to appoint someone from the school district of Churchill on the Hospital Board at Churchill -- that's basically what it's for. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Attorney-General and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable the Member for Elmwood. MR. PETERS: Madam Speaker, I go along with the idea, with the amendment, that it should be referred back to the committee and especially on the second point of having two enumerators .

The other points have been aired quite a bit in this House and there is no need for me to add anything to that; but on the second point of having two enumerators, I found I during the last election, in my own constituency when I was going through the Voters List, I found a name on that Voters List of a fellow whose funeral I had attended a few weeks previous to that. Now apparently what had happened -- the weather was cold, the election was in

March 15th, 19 65 609 (MR. PE TERS cont1d) .•..... December and we had some pretty nasty weather; the enum erator got hold of the last Voters List and just took it for granted that it was the same and just copied it, and I think that if we had had two enumerators a thing like this wouldn •t have happened. It would have been interesting to see if a dead person had voted, but fortunately the dead person didn't vote.

Also in my constituency, and als.o the constituency that I live in, Kildonan, there were in Kildonan two blocks that were left off the Voters List, that the enum erator didn't go and see at all, and I' m sure that if we had had two enum erators that this wculdn•t have happened, and I can 1t use language strong enough to urge the government to reconsider and send this report back to the Commi ttee and let them give it further consideration, especially on this point of the enumerators. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR.

FROESE: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, that debate be adjourned . MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. . ...... continued on next page

610 March 15th, 1965 MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, .... .. ......... that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition does not wish to speak tonight on the Budget Debate, I move , seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MADAM SPE AKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member from Winnipeg Cen tre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR.

CHAillMAN: Department of Education . MR. JOHNSON: Mr . Chairman, it is with a heavy sense of responsibility that I pre sent for the consideration of this committee the largest estimates for education in the history of Manitoba, and it is with a modest pride that I propose to account for our stewardship over the past year.

Just ten years ago in this Chamber , the then Minister of Education submitted estimates for the operation of the Department and the support of public education in Manitoba totalling $12, 660, 680, while today you are being asked to provide $5 6, 75 3,4 46 for the support of a system of public education but most assuredly not for the support of the same system.

In the intervening years the world and the province have seen changes which stagger us in their breadth and rapidity , and the changes in public education in Manitoba have not been less startling than they have been in industrial techniques , social concepts and the emergence of new powers in world affairs. No doubt, as we proceed through the estimates, the House will take note of some of the changes which have already occurred and share with me the anticipa tion of improvements planned for next year.

I think the Members of the Committee would be interested in another compar ison: I note that the estimates of the province for ten years ago were $1. 6 million greater than the estimates now placed before you for the Department of Education alone . I would like, before proceeding further, to pay tribute at this time to the staff in the Department of Education. Some trusted employees have retired in the past year, notably Mr. McDonald, the School Attendance Officer; Miss Aileen Garland who for nine years served as a history teacher at the Teachers College after a long and distinguished career as a teacher .

She was awarded a Doctor of Laws degree by our University last year; and as reported in your annual report, we 're sad to -- on the death of Mr. Sims. a ve ry highly respected school inspector in the Winnipeg area.

An extensive reorganization of the department was effected to distribute immediate responsibility of the vastly increased workload over the past few years, and I must say that the dedication of the staff in the department to the public school system is most commendable, and I know you all join with me in expressing to the people of our prov ince that we are indeed fortunate to have men of such high calibre in the positions of trust, and we are certainly indebted to the members of the staff for their exemplary devotion to duty.

I would be remiss if I also didn't say at this time that, especially in the past year, we have had the widest consultation with the Manitoba School Trustees Association and the Urban School Trustees Association over a wide range of activities, and we are most grateful for their co operation and understanding, and for the dedication which trustees across the province have shown and will continue to show, I know.

Also the officials of the Manitoba Teachers Society , and as I will be pointing out during the course of these Estimates, the role and concern and interest they are showing in co-opera ting with the department in curriculum revision and in teacher restraining programs. I have been most grateful to all these groups for their efforts in this field over the past year.

As we proceed through these estimates appropriation by appropriation , I will try to give you detailed information of the operation of the department and of the school system in general , and I would like to say that I propose to try and point out any policy adjustments or any differen'ces or highlights of the program as we come to each main estimate, each of the main appropriations , because in such a wide area I think it's pretty hard for myself or pos sibly members of the Committee to follow the advances, and I hope members will have better opportunity to question the programs, but before we move to that closer consideration, per haps you would let me tell you of some of the highlights of the past year.

Our enrollments have been climbing steadily and at the moment total 21 8, 770 children in the public schools. The increase is particularly notable in recent years in the high school. In 1958, the last year before the establishment of school divisions, total high school enroll ment was 30, 647 . At the end of December 1964 it stood at 54, 83 1, in increase of 79 percent I I I

March 15th, 1965 61 1 (MR . JOHNSON cont'd. ) in six years This year the total number �f teachers employ- ed in our system is 9, 126 compared with 6, 645 in 1958 . The proportion of graduate teachers has increased from 17 percent of the teaching staff at that time to 25 percent of the teaching staff now. Now, this may not seem like a very great improvement , until you realize that the 17 percent really means 17 percent of 6, 645 teachers, while the 25 percent means 25 percent of 9, 126 . Numerically, the comparison is between 1, 170 graduate teachers in '58 and 2, 31 4 in 1964 .

Seen in this light, the number of graduate teachers has exactly doubled in the past six years At the same time, conditional certificates have been eliminated this year and the requirements for admission to Teacher Training courses have become more demanding. Steady progress has been made in the provision of first class school accommodation. In 1964 almost $9 million worth of schools were built, providing 564 classrooms and classroom equivalents ; 296 of these were elementary classrooms and 268 were secondary.

Fourteen new consolidated school districts were formed and 50 school districts, chiefly small rural districts, were dissolved Many parents have expressed to the department their great satisfaction in having been able, for the first time , to send their children to a graded school. 32 , 000 rural pupils are being transported on 1, 900 routes in a fleet which includes 370 buses ranging from 17 to 66 passengers I should like to express my apprecia tion for the very excellent program of testing school bus drivers and inspecting school buses, which has been developed by the Highways Safety Branch.

The Manitoba Institute of Technology is now in its second year of operation with an en rolment of well over 500 in technology courses and a peak enrolment of 957 in other day courses. The response to evening school courses has been most encouraging. The peak en rolment this winter has been 1, 924 . Not only has enrolment been increasing at the Brandon Vocational Centre , but new courses are having to be established to meet the demand. The course- offerings and plan of the proposed new Brandon Vocational School have now been approved at Ottawa.

Preliminary drawings have been completed and the detail working drawings are now being prepared. We expect that tenders will be called and the contract let in the spring of this year and, similarly, the work and building pla ns for the Northern Voca tional School at The Pas have been approved by the Federal Government's Department of Labour and detail working drawings are now being prepared for it also. We expect construc tion to start in the early summer and the school should be open in September, 1966 .

Plans are actively moving forward with respect to the Junior Vocational School in Win nipeg, with a capac ity as we noted last year of 70 0 students , and we expect to turn this school over to the Winnipeg School Division for operation by September of 19 66. Last year I was able to report to you on our progress in the expansion of the program of basic training for skill development. This is a program in which unemployed people with low educational achievements or attainment are enrolled and up-graded in a very practical academic course which includes maths, science and the use of English.

Those who were en rolled in the course last year were given a living allowance to enable them to attend and take the courses. The program was quite successful and it is being operated just as actively this . year .

I am happy to tell you that we have since extended the provision of living allowances to unemployed people taking other courses, for example trade training at the Institute of Tech nology and at Brandon, and these same considerations will be granted to unemployed persons who enrol! in the school at The Pas when it is ready for operation Divisional Boards are extending their vocational high school offerings and 13 percent of our high school population are enrolled in vocational, industrial and commercial courses this year.

The school boards also offered academic , vocational, citizenship and practical arts courses in evening classes at 24 centres throughout the province, with a total enrolment exceeding 13 , 000 students . An in-p lant training program organized by Industry and Commerce, with the co-opera tion of our department and with financial support from the Federal Government, has caught the attention of a number of industries and provinces in Canada.

The program is operating at the moment chiefly in the garment industry where over 500 people have been trained in the past year·, the majority of whom have continued in employment not only in the industry but with the firms in whose shops they were trained. We are also at this time operating both a one-year course and a two-year course for the training of vocational and technical teachers. The coorse is offered at the Inst itute of Technology and at the present time has an enrolment of 28 in the one- year course and 11 in the

612 March 15th, 196 5 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd .) ... ........ ... two-year course. A ·comparison of the estimates of a few years ago with the estimates presented to you will show the massive effort that we are making in the field of curricula.

Last year the House displayed a very lively interest in the new courses being developed, and as I propose to make a somewhat detailed presentation to you when we come to that item in the estimates, I will not dwell on it at the moment other than to assure you that there are literally hundreds of the most competent teachers working diligently with a greatly expanded departmental .staff to evolve new and modern courses in every grade and discipline iil the public school system.

I'm sure that never in the history of lhe province have courses and their content been studied with a more critical eye or techniques and methods been more carefully analyzed than they have been this year . The changes being planned will not only challenge students by their content, but will require the learning of new techniques and approaches by teachers.

I would like to express in very clear terms our apprec iation of the support and help we are receiving from the many , many teachers and from their professional organization of course, the Mani toba Teachers' Society, in the fields of �urriculum development and teacher re- training . . Within the Directorate of Special Services, this last year has been one of great activity . We have always felt in this province that a reall:y satisfactory job could not be done with deaf students in a residential school of less than 100 students .

Manitoba has now reached the point where our number of deaf is considerably in excess of 100, and the determination was made last year that we would undertake the education of all our deaf children within our borders instead of having some of them attend schools elsewhere. Last summer we saw the principal who might take charge of the new institution and at the same time replace Miss Eldred who for many years had served as principal of the day school for the deaf here. I would like to pay tribute to the skill and devotion which Miss Eldred has cared for her charges.

For quite a few years she worked under rather trying conditions and it was only her genius as a teacher of the deaf that made it possible for the excellent re sults that we have attaine.d. We appreciate too her willingness to remain on the staff this year in spite of the fact that she had technically retired. We believe we've been singularly fortunate in engaging Mr. Don Plummer to serve as principal of the School for the Deaf. Many of you will remember that Mr .

Plummer previously served our department as Supervisor of Special Classes, having under his purview the educa tion of children with various types of physical and mental handicaps. In 1963 he left our serv ice to assume the position of Assistant General Secretary to the Council for Exceptional Children in the United States, and we now feel that with his return to our department we will reap the benefit of the broadening experiences that he has had elsewhere .

Under his guidance the School for the Deaf will be brought back to its home in Tuxedo and we hope that Manitoba's deaf children will never find it necessary to leave the province to secure an adequate and satisfying educational opportunity. Plans are now under way for the renovation of the premises. As most of you know, they have been occupied for almost 20 years by the Manitoba Teachers' College.

In this last year the attendanc e of our children at the school in Saskatoon -- at the Saskatoon School for the Deaf -- I would like to ackr10wledge the many courtesies and considerations our children and our officials have received from the Government of Saskatchewan and the principal and staff of the Saskatoon School. · The Deputy Minister advises me that there has been the most excellent relationship throughout the years . As most members know, there is a

section of The Public School Act which permits the Minister to operate schools in remote places where in his opinion a school is necessary but where there is no school district. Under this

section we are now operating 36 schools with 101 teachers. Some small local contributions are made in cash or in services, .but in the main the cost is paid from our departmental estimates. The estimates before you will provide for the construction of seven new classrooms and at least four new teachers in these remote areas .

These schools are scattered, as I say, in the fringe settlements of the province They have been increasing in number and improving in quality of accommodation and instruc tion but we feel that the time has now arrived when, for most of them, a new outlook and new opportunities must be provided, and to that end, legislation will be brought before the House to provide for the establishment of a division to include most of these special schools and a number of other schools in isolated locations .

Later in my remarks I wish to address myself with more length to this proposal, but at this point I wish to acknowledge the debt owed by many of the remote settlements of the •

March 15th, 1965 613 (MR . JOHNSON cont'd. ) ....... province to Mr. Bernard Grafton. He became Mani toba's first supervisor of special schools in 1948 and has served in that post ever since . Under his devoted guidance, educational services have been extended to the outskirts of the province. Attendance of children at his schools has been much improved. Some 70 students have been enrolled for high school work and a small number have even gone beyond high school to Teachers' Co llege, nursing and the university.

We feel however that there will be a limited improvement in the return from the con tinued operation of these small units and some equally small and isolated school districts if that continued operation is on the independent basis which now exists Further improvements we feel will have to come through the establishment of a division and the extension to the re mote areas of some of the benefits which have unquestionably flowed from the establishment of school divisions elsewhere .

Accordingly, the legislation will permit the establishment of a school division which will be a composite of almost all the special schools and isolated school districts lying north of Township 22 . I will provide you with additional detailed information on this project when the legislation is under discussion, which should be any day. I have already mentioned that Mr. Plummer who had been our Supervisor of Special Classes had resigned to serve in a Secretariate to the Counc il for Exceptional Children in the United States, and we have now been able to engage a Mr. Peter Wilby to fill this vacancy .

He is a man who is eminently suited by experience and interest, training and ability, to help us move ahead in our program for the education of handicapped children His responsibilities will include the education of the blind, the physically handicapped, and the mentally retarded Our blind children are all be ing educated at the Ontario School for the Blind at Brantford. We've had this arrangement with Ontario, as you know, for a good number of years , and there is no doubt that our children receive a much better education there than we could hope to ar range in Manitoba for such a small number.

The arrangement we made recen tly with the Department of Welfare for the full time services of Mr. George Nick as Supervisor of Physical Educa tion is working out very well indeed. He was formerly an instructor in physical education at the Manitoba Teachers' College and his close and intimate knowlege of the kind of assistance needed by teachers in his field is of great benefit to physical education teachers across the province.

Similarly, Miss Helen Janzen, the Supervisor of Home Economics, has not only been providing excellent services to the home economics classes in high schools but has at the same time been of great use in other sections of the department in the planning and services of the School for the Deaf, the new trade and vocational schools being built, and the residential high school for the new division mentioned a few moments ago.

The Instructi on Division provides the services of school inspection, correspondence schools, the Visual Education Branch, and the School Broadcast Branch, including both radio and television broadcasts, and the Teacher Training Branch. Plans have been made for the establishment of a Guidance Branch within this division and I will outline these to you shortly . During the last few years we have drawn rather heavily on the experience and abilities of members of the inspection staff for duties other than that of school inspection.

Some have been seconded full-time to the Curriculum Branch where they've aided in the development of new courses; some have been given temporary assignments requiring them to work only with those schools which have undertaken some of the new courses. All have had brief in-service periods of training and will have further in-service training in some of the new techniques being introduced into the schools.

We expect in the fall of this year, in '65 , to establish on a trial basis in the southwestern part of the province an entirely new project, in which a group of inspectors will work as a team during the entire year, each contributing his particular talents and experience to the group and all working as an integrated unit under a senior in spector. The Correspondence Branch has always been a very active operation, teaching a host of people who, because of their isolation, ill-healt h or age, cannot attend regular school classes . In the last decade the pattern of enrollment has changed very markedly.

Ten years ago more than 50 percent of the students were enrolled in elementary grade subjects, but last year 90 percent of the enrollment was in the high school grades. It was expected that with the establishment of school divisions and the broader opportunities being offered for high school education, the Correspondence Branch would be very materially reduced in both size and function. We found, instead, that while there was an abrupt drop in total enrollment about 196 1, there was no corresponding drop in the number of adults enrolled Since that time ,

61 4 March 15th, 19Ei5 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd ) . . . . . . . . enrollment in all categories has climbed steadily, and to day the high school enrollment in the Correspondence Branch is almost equal to its previous high level, and the enrollment for adults for high school work with the Correspondence Branch is more than double than what it was 10 years ago. There are 800 adults enrolled in the Branch for high school work by correspondence ..

We expect to begin almost immediately with the pre paration of correspondence lessons in the General Course to enable those who begin the course at school but drop out, to complete their studies , and as the new University Entrance Course becomes defined and established, new courses -- correspondence lessons, of course -- in ..... subjects, will also be produced and made available. We appear to have a rather constant enrollment of slightly over 200 students who are taking elementary courses.

The Committee might be interested to know that a fair number of these students no longer live in Manitoba, but having taken a portion of their elementary work here, then moved away, they have enrolled with us to complete a year or two, and in some cases to continue year after year with us in the anticipation of later returning to Manitoba and having again to fit into our education system. The Audio-Visual Branche"s have been extremely active during the past year. The use of films and film strips is increasing at a rapid rate and will increase even faster as the new science courses come into being.

Pm sure you 're all familiar with the daily school broad casts -- radio and television broadcasts. Radio lessons which cannot be received by some classes in larger schools because of time-t abling problems, are provided to the schools for later use by means of tape recordings, except where union regulations prevent this. The members of the Committee might be interested to know that we are experiencin g a great demand for the recordings of French language broadcasts.

Next September we expect to begin a Saturda y morning series of telecasts to provide in-service training for mathematics teachers throughout the province . I mentioned earlier that the revision of our curriculum is not just a matter of sorting and re-a llocating content amongst the various levels of instruction, but it involves major changes in the techniques on the teaching, and presenting new concepts . From now on, teachers coming out of our teacher training institutions will have had practice in these techniques , but many of those who are now actively engaged in teaching will have to learn the new methods.

The Saturday morning TV series is intended to provide this type of training for those teaching elementary school mathematics. Involving as they do teleca sts which can be received by al most aJl homes in the province, they should serve as an additional purpose , that of acquaint- ing parents everywhere with the new approaches which are being introduced in mathematics . We hope they will not only train and stimulate teachers but create a better bond of understand ing between the home and the school in the field of mathematics.

I might say in this connect ion that co-opera tion of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in making our plans come to real ity in this area is most gratifying. In the last few months we have been fortunate enough to bring together in the building formerly used as the Manitoba Technical Institut e, the so-called Ford Building, a substantial group of departmental services to form what is in reality a teaching aid centre .

At this one location we now have all the facilities of the Textbook Bureau; the Departmental Library for free use by teachers throughout the province and by our own staff; the Curricu lum Branch ; the Visual Branch; and the School Broadcasts Branch; and we're proud of these services avail able at this location, and I was very pleased that some of the Members of the Legislature visited this building and saw the program there this morning. Pm sorry more were not able to take

part in this tour but I think all members who did attend were impressed, and we're particu larly happy to have been able to establish two radio studios on the second floor where we will be producing all our own school broadcasts in our own quarters but with the assistance of t1'e CBC personnel. Those who attended and saw the facilities this morning noted that the co-o peration between the CBC and the Department, or the relationship, is a very happy one, and it was pointed out to us that these are probably the finest facilities which any department enjoys in the country .

In the field of teacher training, I think probably the most important decision in many years was taken when we completed an agreement with the University of Manitoba for the trans fer of that institution, of all the teaching staff and functions of the Manitoba Teachers College. Through the daily press you will already have been informed of most of the terms of the agree ment, and under the Teacher Training appropriation in our estimates you will have an opportun ity to discuss this transfer in detail. In the meantime , I think you would be interested to know I I i I

March 15th, 1965 615 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd) .......... that the new addition to the Faculty of Education Bui lding at the University is moving ahead very quickly, and that the Committee on Admissions has been established, and the Committee on Teacher Education is in the process of being establish ed. For obvious reasons, such as the close proximity of shops, we will continue to train our technical and vocational teachers at the Manitoba Institute of Technology.

Since we received the report on the Manitoba Royal Commission on Local Government and Financ e, the Michener Commission, last spring, the portions of it dealing with education have received most careful and detailed study. A series of meetings has been he Id, as you know, with interested and representative organizations , and we have received a number of briefs and submissions on the implementation of this report. Legislation will be presented to you which we think will prove our serious intent while at the same time permitting the reten tion of a desirable measure of local prerogative.

When we come to the next item under my estimates in Administration, I propose to make a statement and elaborate on this particular aspect. When our estimates were being prepared several months ago, and in antic ipation of the receipt at some later date of the report on the Educ ation of Handicapped Children, but without knowledge of its recommendations , a sum of $150, 000 was included in the department estimates for Special Services.

It was our opinion, and still is , that regardless of any recommendations which might be contained in the report, that the maximum age for grant entitlement in the class of educable re tarded should be raised to 18 years from sixteen. We also expected that there might be other improvements which it would be desirable to bring into effect during the coming fiscal year, and when I speak on my estimates on Special Services I hope by that time to have sufficient copies of the report on Handicapped Children, dealing with the mentally retarded, to distribute to members of the Committee .

In the meantime, the Departments of Health and Education have been asked to prepare a detailed analysis of the report for our own study, and I can say at this point that the government will certainly have to find it necessary to consult with the voluntary associations before taking action on the report.

I would point out at this time, however, that the raising of the maximum age for inclusion in a class of educable retard ed will enable some districts more eas ily to attain the enrollment required to form a class and earn grants, and make it possible for some urban areas to qualify for additional grants through the inclusion of some students who were previously excluded by age.

Our department has also felt for some time that a more serious approach to guidance in schools was required, as society is becoming more complex and the schools naturally react to changes in programs and courses and offer their students a much more diverse range of studies. Students stay at school longer, many with special problems, and many, who in the past year would have dropped out, continue their studies and require specific and add itional forms of advice and guidance. And we're providing this year in the Estimates for the estab lishment of a Guidance

section in the department, and we hope to be able to recruit a staff of specialists to help students and teachers in this very important work. I would say at this time that, while we announced last year that we had established a Division Supervisor of Guidance, despite some valiant efforts over the past year to find personnel we have not been able to secure the person to head this program. However, I'll deal -- and this year we are going to be pre senting to you a more complete Guidance

section to get a start within the department, and I can deal with that in some more detail later. Members of the Committee will probably have noted through the press, that last Sep tember Manitoba was host to the Annual Convention of the Canadian Educational Association; 735 delegates were in attendance including, for the first time in its history, all of the Ministers of Education.

This organization, althoug h it has no authority to make decisions for the various provinces on matters of consequence , nevertheless performs many of the functions which would be handled possibly by a Federal Department of Education, if there were such a department, and it brings together senior educators and administrators from departments of education, colleges and universities, local superintendents and other officials , representatives of trustee organizations , and such national bodies as the Home and School, Ci tizenship Counc il, and the Canadian Association of French Language Educators, and others who are interested in edu cational matt ers.

It is with deep regret that I report the death of Dr . F. S. Rivers, who was the Chief Director of Education in the Province of Ontario, and was president of the Canadian Education Association and presided over its meetings during the Winnipeg Convention. For about 15 years, our department and the Federal Indian Affairs Branch have had a

616 March 15th, 1965 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd ........ working agreement -- a working arrangement, as it were , with one another -- on the education of treaty and non-trea ty Indian children in isolated settle ments. As a rule, where the Indian children were in the majority the Indian Affairs Branch operated the school, and where non-trea ty children were in the majority our Department op erated it.

In some instances the arrangement was recognized by the signing of a formal agree ment on cost sharing, while in other cases the operation of a joint school by Indian Mfai rs was considered to be balanced by the operation of a similar school by our department, and no ex change of monies occurred. Recently, we have both felt that the process of integration must move along at a faster pace, and the Indian Mfairs Branch has negotiated agreements for the attendance of treaty children at public schools in areas which are not at all isolated.

This has resulted in a number of agreements which differ from school to school, but which generally require the payment by Indian Affairs to the local district of a sum of money which will guaran tee that the local district does not have to pay through local taxation the cost of educating the Indian children attending the school. There is, however, another cost which has not been covered. It is the cost incurred by the province through the inclusion of Indian children in the enrollment and the payment by the province to the district of regular Manitoba grants .

Indian Affairs Branch has given an assurance that it is prepared to reimburse Manitoba for its out of- pocket expenses for the education of Indian children in the public school system, and we on our part have made a proposal to Indian Affairs Branch which will cover the financial angles to the satisfaction of all parties and which will represent a giant stride forward in the process of integration.

It is our proposal that The Manitoba Public School Act be amended to guarantee to all Indian children precisely the same rights that are given to non-tre aty; that is, the right to at tend the school in the district in which the child lives, or if he does not live within a school district, the right to attend the nearest school which does have sufficient accommodation to accept him; and in either case to attend without the payment of a non-resident fee.

The finan cial arrangements between the province and the Federal Government on the one hand, and be tween the province and the Local Districts on the other, will guarantee that the Indian children attending public schools are not segregated even on the rolls of the school.

It is our firm be lief that the solution to the so-called Indian problem, like the solution to most other problems, economic and social, afflicting our world toda y , lies in the extension of educational opportuni ties and privileges, and we feel that only by integrating Indian children into our school processes can we hope to integrate them into our society.

We hope the proposal we have made to Indian Affairs will be acceptable and that, as a consequenc e, we will be able to ask your approval of legislation which will give to treaty Indian children the educational rights and privileges which have been a heritage of the non-treaty children in our province. The number of students enrolling at University level courses gets greater and greater, and this growth is paralleled by an increase in the complexity and diversity of courses offered and demanded.

Rising costs have made it essential that a careful study be made of the facili ties and services which the University and the colleges now have, the ones they will soon re quire, and the need for duplication of courses; and we have therefore held discussions with the University and the affiliated colleges aimed at the establishment of a council of higher learning. The government has agreed with these institutions on the form, functions and terms of refer en ce of such a council, and it is now in the process of being established.

I might say these discussions initiated last spring and were recently concluded in January -- the early part of January '-- and it's just a matter of formality in forming the group. You will also find in the estimates an increased sum of money for the provision of bursaries to students in the province. Last year's estimates provided $200, 000 for bursaries and $150, 000 for student loans. In September of last year the Federal Government, as you know, brought in the Canada Student Loan Plan with the Provincial Department of Education as the administering authority here.

This plan can provide students with non-int erest- bearing loans totalling $2 million per year. Of this amount approximately $1, 350, 000 has been loaned to students this year, starting last September, and there will be available to students beginning in September a loan fund of $2 million, plus the appropriation before you totalling $3 50, 000 in bursaries. There is some indication that if Manitoba requires more than its allotted $2 million for student loans, further sums will be available. Mr.

Chairman, in terms of what has been accomplished in the last year, or what we are planning for the coming year, I think our department can rightly claim to be making tremendous progress in the improvement of our educational system in the breadth of services which we will

March 15th, 1965 61 7 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd) ........ offer to the school children and the adults of Manitoba.

The strains of a program such as this have required a reorganization in the department, as I mentioned earlier, resulting in the appointment of three Assistant Deputy Ministers and the establishment of four positions of Assistant Director; the establishment of a new Guidance section; the expansion of the staff of the present day school for the deaf to provide the addition al teaching staff needed for the repatriation of Manitoba deaf children who have been educated elsewhere; and for the operation of the residential school and the establishment of the additional positions needed to staff the rapidly growing operation in the vocational field.

This expansion of staff is counterbalanced in part by a reduction which will result from the closing of the Mani toba Teachers College and its transfer to the University. In these introductory comments to committee -- I have been reading, of course, and I'm trying to touch on some of the high spots of the year of activity and to outline our plans for the coming year, but it is my intention to provide a more detailed statement in introduction of each of the major appropriations of the department.

I should like to assure members that I will do my best to provide reasonable and logical answers to questions , but I hope that where it is possible to do so, the questions might be asked during the discussion of the appropriate item. I realize that there will inevitably be a wide-ra nging discussion and a num ber of general ques tions under the heading of Minister's Salary, but I can assure the members that I hope to give ample opportunity under the specific items for further questioning. I think I can probably dig up the answers a little more efficiently and completely for you under that system.

Although it has occupied a great deal of my time this year, I have made ::1.0 mention in this review of the question of shared services. I have deliberately omitted this in the certain knowledge that each one of us can express his own views after the report of the committee has been tabled. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman , may I summarize briefly the new developments which are engaging our attention and for most of which there is provision in the estimates before you: 1. The implementation of certain recommendations of the Michener Commission. 2.

The establishment of a new school division to encompass many remote settlements and to provide continuous opportunity for the students from Grade 1 to 12 , under conditions which we have never been able to establish before. 3. A rapid and carefully planned development of voca tional education inc luding the immediate construction of centres at The Pas and Brandon. 4.

The transfer of the new Teacher Training activities presently conducted at the Manitoba Teachers College, to the University, and the centraliza tion in the University atmosphere of all teacher training with the exce ption of that related to technical and vocational teachers. 5. The re-est ablishment in Manitoba of a residential School for the Deaf and the repatriation of Mani tobe deaf students to that centre . 6. The establishment of a Guidance

section in the Department of Education. 7. The expansion of a program of student aid which will provide for our students a total amount in loans and bursaries from the governments of not less than $2, 350, 000. 8. Ad ditional grants to encourage the adoption of certain recommendations contained in the Michener report. 9. An expanded program of assistance to schools through television, including a very comprehensive program for the re- training of teachers in mathematics. 10.

A proposal for the integration of Indian children into the public school system of the province , and for the ex tension to them of all rights and privileges now enjoyed by non-tre aty children. 11. The study of recommendations brought forward in the so-called Christianson Report for the Education of the Mentally Retarded, and an assurance of careful. study and consideration of any further re port which may be made respecting the education of children suffering from other handicaps. You will recall that report calls for quite a broad study. 12 .

The establishment of a Counc il of Higher Learning to guarantee that plans are made for the orderly development of university level facilities in the province. Mr. Chairman, the record of accomplishments or plans can never be told fully by re ference to dollars spent in the past or allocated for the future, and it is for this reason that I have taken the time of the Committee to outline in words, rather than dollars, the things we have done or are now attempting to do. Howeve r, I am sure you will alre ady have noted that our plans and good intentions are also backed up with solid financial support.

The current estimates for the Department will represent 30. 6% of the entire estimated expenditures of the province, and I hope you will see fit to grant us this money. I assure you that we will give you back full value for every dollar of it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opening statement. MR. TANCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I'm disappointed. In the words of the late Honourable

61 8 March 15th, 1965 (MR . TANCHAK cont'd) ...•.... Wally Miller , one of the former Ministers of Education, in his words I'll say -- I'll just change one word -- "Not a brag for Gimli. " That's why I was disappointed. "Not a brag for Gimli. " I wish to thank the Honourable Minister. for his rather lengthy introduction and I hope that most of his visions come true. I like his tone, and I hope that it prevails throughout the whole of his Estimates.

I am just wondering if the Honourable Minister has a rhinoceros hide , like the Minister of Agriculture said it was necessary when you were a cabinet minister, be cause although there were some pertinent questions asked last year, I think that maybe the honeymoon is over; the present Minister has had some experienc e and I believe that he may be asked to explain some of the unpardonable blunders of the former minister. At this time I would like also to express our best wishes to the retired personnel. We also regret the loss through death of some of the personnel of the staff. Congratulations will go to Mr.

Dalton in his new position as Assistant Deputy Minister in charge of Administration and Vocational Training. Also, Mr. Davies, Assistant Deputy Minister in charge of Special Services. Another appointment, Mr. Lightly, who is now Assistant Deputy Mi nister of Instruc tion and Teacher Training. We wish them the best. On behalf of the Liberal Party I would like to express our sincere appreciation of the courtesy extended to us by the civil service of this department, just as they usually do. I was very happy to learn that the Department of Edu- cation has acquired the service's of a very able educationalist, Mr.

Bobby Bend. I'm sure 11e 1 will be a great asset to the Department of Education. And we, on this side, the Liberal group, I think should know. I'm also pleased to note that considerable use of loans is being made by the students. It's a good indication. The loans have steadily been increasing since the program was initiated by the former Liberal administration. I regret, however, that we still have too many permit teachers in our schools.

It was indicated by the former Minister of Education that the new look in education would gradually eliminate permit teachers, but if we look on Page 84 of the Depart ment of Education, we notice that it shows a steady increase in permit teachers. It is almost 30 0 percent increase in elementary and over 50 percent in the secondary. It seems to be worse in elementary. I think some explanation is due from the Minister. Later on I suppose we'll be asking some questions about the highly short-s ighted policy I ·o f the secondary school building construction in rural divisions.

As we all know, the facilities now are not adequate to cope with the curricula changes and I know that the present Minister • has a formidable task to overcome -- maybe one that'll be pretty hard to overcome. I also notice that in 1963- 64 over $11, 000 was paid out in scholarships to individuals for academic achievements. This is a very commendable practice.

We should recognize the efforts and capabilities of the individual scholar or student , and this is fine; but on the other hand when it comes to bursaries I think that the government is being niggardly -- not in the amount of money expended but in the method of awarding deserving individuals, and where can you ...... individuals now. Bursa ry awards are based on scholastic ability and established financial need of the individual.

Now, since need enters into this category, I feel that the government should be more generous as far as individuals are concerned, and I'm not making a plea now for separate schools or parochial schools or anything. I'm talking about the indivi dual. Everyone should be considered who qualifies. We should not deny some poor student the opportunity of an education or an assistance towards that education, and I further feel the De partment should not discriminate against an individual for any reason whatsoever.

I have a complaint made by an individual who applied for a bursary but was denied it, and the answer he got was in this vein, and I'm going to read it. This was the answer that he got from some official -- I have no signature here but I suppose it could be traced through the content : "I am sorry to have to advise you that the Committee making the awards could not include your name amongst those who secured the above-named bursary. Under regulations, awards can be made only to candidates with clear standing, recorded scholastic ability, and established financial · need.

Students must also be in attendanc e at a public secondary school of the province . These bursaries are not tena ble in private schools. The Committee hope that you will not be dis couraged by this (lecision but will meet with success in the work of coming years ." And my objection to this is, in one case where a student proves himself or herself aca demically he receives a scholarship -- no strings attached.

In the other case, where he or she establishes need, he does not qualify because he wishes to attend the school of his choice, and I think this is discrimination, against an individual and not an organized group. I just fail to see how the government could justify its actions and I would like the Minister to look into this and explain to us.

March 15th, 1965 619 (MR. TANCHAK cont'd) ....... . I'm not going to be too lengthy in what I have to say because I know that we'll be able to get up and ask questions as we proceed in the Estimates, but there is one thing that I can't restrain myself from commenting on, and this is that item of $1 0 million tax rebate which is included in the Department of Education estimates. The Minister was boasting just a few minutes ago that estimates in the Department of Education are up to over $50 million, but I would say that we could immediately discount this by at least $10 million. How on earth can an

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-4-25
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 4th hansardpdf 25.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	9ace00b0ffbd8864723b560b78a47e92867900dd

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