ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 5 - 2:00 p.m., WEDNESDAY, 8 DECEMBER, 1982. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) AN STETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R: (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DE SJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMM OND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPH ILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Mo rris Roblin-R ussell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gl adstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere ln kster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Peti­ tions .. Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Re ports by Sta nding and Special Committees MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Return to Order No. 9 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENN ER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to file an answer to an Or der for Return. This was an Or der for Return dated June 7, 1982 on the motion of the Honourable Member for LaVere ndrye, No. 9. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . .

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. W. PARASIUK introduced Bill No. 4, The Mani­ toba Oil and Gas Corporation Act -

Loi sur la societe Manitobaine du petrole et du gaz nature!. (Recom­ mended by Her Honou r the Lieutenant-Governor), and Bil l No. 5, The Surface Rights Act - La

loi sur les droits de surface. (Rec ommen ded by Her Honou r the Lieutenant-Governor). HON. B. URUSKI introduced Bil l No. 6,

An Act to amend The Pesticides and Fertilizer Control Act. HON. R. PENNE R introduced Bill No. 10,

An Act to amend The Real Property Act. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK introduced Bil l No. 13,

An Act to amend The Business Names Registration Act. HON. R. PENNE R introduced Bil l No. 14,

An Act to amend The Ele ctions Act - La loi modifiant la loi electoral e. HON. S. USKIW introduced Bill No. 15,

An Act to amend The Highway Traffic Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Question Period, may I refer the attention of honourable mem bers to the galler y where we have seven students from the Mar ymound School under the direction of Mr s. McCormick and Mrs. Janzen. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Johns. There are 30 students of Grade 9 standing from the John Hender son High School under the direction of Mr. Earl. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Finance.

On behalf of all the mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. 87 HANSARD CLARIFICATION MR. SP EAKER : The Honou rable Memb er for Rupertsland. MR. E. HARPER: I rise on a privilege. I just want to make a correction in Hansard. In the sixth parag raph, Page 17, in the line where it says, "In fact, Mr. Speaker, we are distinguished from other Native groups, " I want to change that Native groups to ethnic groups. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable mem ber does not have a point of privilege but the correction is duly noted. ORAL QUESTIONS Manitoba deficit MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposi tion.

HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I have questions for the First Minister. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister of Finance said yesterday in reporting Mani­ toba's greatest ever deficit of approxi mately $500 mil­ lion and in commenting upon that deficit said, "The deficit is in fact appropriate and desira ble to sustain and stimulate economic activity. " Later on in that same statement on that same page said "that the altern atives to a larger deficit, drastic expe nditure cuts or substantially higher taxes were definitely not what the economy needs at this time.

" Can the First Minister advise the House of the size of the deficit, in excess I presume of 500 mil lion, that he and his Minis­ ters are working on at the present time if they are to foll ow the guideline s laid down by the Minister of Finance yesterday? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. ·HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we are not intending to attempt to increase the deficit contrary to what the Leader of the Opposition has indicated beyond the present levels. It will depend a great deal on what happens pertaining to decreased revenues.

If revenues continue to decrease, unfortunately, deficits not only of Manitoba but all other jurisdictions in Canada will likely be increasing. If there is an economic recovery and we see some restoration of stability in the econ­ omy, I would anticipate that the deficit would substan­ tially decrease, not only in Manitoba but in Saskat­ chew an, British Col umbia, Canada, and all other jurisdictions in the country. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, to be more precise, for the fiscal year beginning April 1, 1983, can the First Minister tell the House now if he and his col leagues are preparing Estimates of Expenditure and Estimates of Rev enue which will be guided by those guidelines that I have just read from the Minister of Finance's state ment yesterday: namely , no higher taxes and no

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 drastic expenditure cuts and if so, how much more than $500 mil lion are they going to be budgeting for next year's deficit? Will it be $750 mil lion or will it be a billion dollar s? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, I wish to advise the Leader of the Opp osition, members across the way and all members of the House that we are presently working on Estimate Review for the forthcom ing fiscal year '83-84. In the process of preparing the projec­ tions, of course a great deal depends upon forecasts. Forecasts change from time to time as to the possibil­ ity of economic recovery.

The problem basically has not been one of increased costs, a 2 percent margin, and I would trust that we could bring that down to no increase by way of expenditure cost. The problem has been one of decreas ing revenues and what occurs re the next fiscal year pertaining to deficit will depend upon the extent of recovery or lack of recovery - world, North American, Canadian. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that from studies we have done, it would appear that the actual expend itures for the Province of Man itoba this year will be in the area of 18 percent to 20 percent over those for the prev ious fiscal year. Will the First Min is­ ter confirm that the guidelines expressed by the Minis­ ter of Finance yesterday, that is no increased taxes, no drast ic cuts in expen ditures, would result then in 19 83-84 in a fiscal deficit of appr oximately $750 mil­ lion to a billion dol lars? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, it would be at this stage irresponsible for me or indeed for the Leader of the Op position to participate in that kind of specula ­ tion. When we have concl uded our Estimate Review, when we have concl uded our Budget Analysis, when we have a fuller picture insofar as economic recovery we will be in a better position, Mr . Speaker, to project the deficit re fiscal year '83-84.

We are all, of course, quite interested in ensuring there is a proper balanc e between ensuring that exist­ ing levels of service to Man itobans be as well main­ tained as is possible. decreas ing the extent of any potential tax increases. There, again, it would be spe­ cula tive for me to comment on what wou ld occur in that respect at this stage, and als o to do our best along with all other jurisdictions, lea ving aside party, Mr. Speaker. from Social Credit to Parti Quebecois to Conservative to Liberal in Canada are all doing their best to walk this careful tightrope given the present econom ic recess ion.

The situation in Man itoba is not unique, it is quite comparable to what is occurring in every other jurisdiction in Canada. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, can we then have some confirmation from the First Min ister that the statement made yesterday by the Min ister of Finance does. in fact, represent Government pol icy when he said that "drastic expend iture cuts or substantially higher taxes were definitely not what the economy needs at this time?" Are those the policy guidelines that this Gov­ ernment is fol lowing as it draws up the Revenue and Expenditure Estimates for 19 83-84? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would interpret cer- 88 tainly the words "drastic expenditure cuts" to be just that, expen diture cuts that would bring about a balancing in the Budget which no jurisdiction has been able to do including the jurisdiction immediately south of us which has talked at great length about the need for balanced budgeting. Drastic decrease by way of expend itures to obtain a balanced situation re the finances of the province would mean a drast ic cutback re health, post­ secondary education and health services in Man itoba. We are not just dealin g with small items here.

We are talking in terms of drast ic cutbacks which would have a very fundamental and a very damaging impact upon public services in Man itoba. As I indicated the other day, we certainly don't intend to undertake those kind of prog rams that will kick the crutches out from underneath those that are in need. HON. S. LYON: Given the fact, Mr .

Speaker, when this Govern ment was ele cted, we long since ceased any hope of working toward a balanced Budget, can the First Minister give us some assurance, give the people of Man itoba some assurance and give the peop le who hold the paper of Man itoba in all parts of the world some assurance that this Governmen t is working toward a budgetary deficit for 19 83-84 that is no larger than $500 milli on, which is the current pro­ jected deficit for this year, and if it is not going to be larger than $500 milli on, what cuts in expendit ure and what increased taxes can the people of Man itoba expect?

Alternatively, if there will be no cuts in expen­ diture or increased taxes, will he give us a ball park figure as to whether that deficit is being prepar ed on the basis of $750 mil lion or a billion dol lars or more? A very simple question. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, what the Leader of the Opp osition is asking me as Prem ier of the Pro­ vince of Man itoba is a quest ion that if addressed to any other Prem ier in Canada, he would receive the same response, even eight Premiers that are of the same pol itical stripe as the Leader of the Opposition.

The uncertainty re the economy at the present time prevents one from honestly indicating at this particu­ lar stage as to what the deficit will be in '84-85. Canada can't do that; British Columbia can't do that; Saskat­ chewan can't do that. Obviously, Saskatchewan can't because of the information we just received two or three weeks ago about the unprecedented deficit in the Province of Saskatchewan and throughout the Mar itimes, Quebec and in Ontario. We don't claim to be superhuman in the Government of the Province of Man itoba.

We are very very human and we can only proceed on the same basis that any other jurisdiction can proceed with at this time, with prudence, and at the same time as we proceed with prudence to ensure that we continue with the retention of reasonable lev­ els of human compa ssion for those that are in need. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the Honourable First Minister that there are no misap pre­ hensions on this side of the House about any super­ human instincts on that side of the House. In fact. we'd like from time to time to see some manifestations of human instincts, never mind superhuman ones.

The second portion of the statement of the Min ister

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 of Finance yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, dealt with the appoint ment of Professor Barber to exam ine and compare Man itoba's present system of reporting the province's accounts, and to use the words of the news release that reached us all today "and to suggest, from an econom ist's perspective. ways in which it could be made more informative and mean ingful to both legis­ lators and taxpayers." The Min ister in the news release said " ... he hoped some suggestions could be made before sittings resume in the New Year, so that it might be possible to apply some improved proce­ dures in presenta tion of the 19 83 Budget and Estimates." Mr .

Speaker, given that statement from the News Service, which is controlled out of the Prem ier's Office, I ask the First Min ister, will he give this House an undertaking that no change in the method of pres­ entation of Estimates or in the method of presentation of the financial statements of this House will be made unless the Public Accounts Commit tee of this House has been cal led to scrutinize the chan ges in order to avoid any suggestion that this Govern ment would be changing the benchmark methodology of reporting on the finances of the province so as to escape com­ parisons with a presentation system which is pres­ ently fol lowed and which is understood by most tax­ payers and most of the financial people in Canada and abroad?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we'll foll ow whatever has been the precedent that has been follo wed in past times when matters such as this have been dealt with, both during the term of the adm inistration of the pre­ vious Gove rnment, the practice they pursued, and also during the time of a former Pr emier of this pro­ vince. Premier Duff Robl in. We'll fol low whatever precedent was the one that was follo wed by the pre­ vious admin istration as well as the admin istration of Duff Roblin in regard to this. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, in that case then I pre­ sume that the First Mi nister is saying to the House, and more importantly to the people of Manitoba and the people who hold the paper on the credit of Man it­ oba, that the Provincial Auditor of this province will be fully consulted and his appr oval will be sought, as well as the Public Accounts Com mittee of this Legislature, before this Gove rnment attempts, as is its wont, to try to "cook the books" of the province before the next Session of the Legislature. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, since we haven't received any recommendations from Professor Barber and since I don't know at this point what kind of recomm endations will be made and what kind of proposals the Government will app rove to proceed with, it would be improper on my part to attempt to specu la te in a response to the Leader of the Opp osition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, is the First Min ister say­ ing it would be improper on his part to consult with the other members of the House before any fundame ntal changes are made on the reporting system for the expend itures and the revenues of this province? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if the Leader of the Opp osition would have listened carefully to my words a few moments ago, I said that we would foll ow quite gl adly the precedent that was follo wed by the Leader of the Op position whil e he was Premier of the Pro­ vince of Man itoba, as well as another well-kno wn Conservative Leader and Premier, now Senator, Duff Robl in. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, earlier this week the reeves and mayors of 22 rural municipal ities and towns in southern Manitoba met and determ ined as a group that they would fol low, with respect to munici­ pal expend itures in their areas, the pol icy of 6 percent and 5 percent for school boards, hospital budgets, etc. I would like to have some indication from the First Min ister of the province, Mr.

Speaker, as to whether he supports this initiative that has been taken by 22 of the mayors and reeves in southern Man itoba to help way­ lay the load on the taxpayer which is being caused by current economic conditions, by taxes imposed by my honourable friends opposite and other conditions. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Op position made reference to taxes being imposed. I think we made it very very clear, if the Leader of the Opp osition is referring to, and I suspect he is, to the Post-Secondary Education and Health levy, that we intend to compensate the municipal ities in respect to that.

So there ought to be no mislea ding, I'm sure innocently, of municipal people in the Province of Manitoba by the Leader of the Oppo sition.

In regard to whether or not I support, I would have liked to have an opportunity to discuss with the munic­ ipal pe ople who app roved that resolution of 6 and 5 whether or not they intend to propose that in pursuing that objective, and I ass ume by impl ication from what the Leader of the Opp osition has indicated that the Provincial Government do likewise, if that would include reducing grants to 5 percent for the coming year to municipal ities and to school divisions, if it's an overa ll picture or whether it's a cake without the icing. HON. S. l YON: Wel l, Mr .

Speaker, I would like to get an answer to the first question if possible and I'm sure · that the municipal people in Manitoba who have been told that they are going to be reimbursed for the pay­ roll tax inflicted by this government, but who have not yet received a nickel, and the hospital boards and schoo l divisions who may have - it's been hinted that they are going to get the money back but they haven't seen anything yet - I would like some indication from the First Minister as to whether or not he supports this initiative by the mayors and reeves in southern Man it­ oba and if not, what guidelines are he and his Minis­ ters offering to the municipal ities, the school divisions and the hospitals with respect to cost increases that will impact directly on municipal taxpayers in Manit­ oba this year? 89 HON.

H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, insofar as the munic­ ipalities are concerned, I would look forward to us meeting with the municipal ities. Any municipalit y that obviously attempts to restrain their costs we support. If they are attempting to do that on their own internal basis without affect ing basic important services to the

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 ratepayers in the municipalit y, that is a proper and a positive move. indeed on the same basis that this Provincipal Government is attempting to do the very same during these very severe and difficult times. Mr.

Speaker. what I made reference to though ear­ lier is whether or not - and this is the subject of discus­ sion as to the levels of support that the municipal ities anticipate they will require from the Provincial Go­ vernment in order to achieve that particular objective - 1 think it's important that we do have those kind of discussions with the municipal ities and certainly we intend to do so with those that are interested. HON. S. LYON: Mr .

Speaker. in the area in quest ion, given the fact that large emplo yers in that area, such as CSP Foods, are laying off people and cutting wages of people on staff, given the fact that one of the largest printing enterpris es in that area is als o having to cut wages of staff. and these are private-sector people who pay the taxes in Man itoba, would the First Minis­ ter not agree that he should be giving more than gen­ eral support of the nature just expressed by him to the reeves and to the mayors in their endeav our to ensure that the public-sector wages with respect to municipal organizations, hospitals. schools and so on. do not go leaps and bounds beyond what the tax-paying public can afford to pay?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm not quite certain whether the Leader of the Op position is proposing that we interfere or intervene in respect to existing col lective bargaining agreements. If that is what the Leader of the Opp osition is propos ing that we do during the upcoming Session of the Legislatu re. that we pass legislation as indeed Ontario is doing and I believe Nova Scotia, my answer to him, no, we do not intend to introduce legislation in this Legislature to do what is being done in Ontario and Nova Scotia. HON. S. LYON: So, Mr.

Speaker, I can take it then that if one of the hospitals in that area, as is reported to me, is planning on a 9.4 percent increase in wages alone for hospital workers in that area when the municipali­ ties are attempting to keep things at 6 and 5 that the First Min ister, given his previous remarks, would sup­ port that wage increase or perhaps even larger ones? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would just like the Leader of the Op position to hear cle arly what I said.

I indicated that we were not interfering in the col lective bargaining process; neither am I supp orting the giv­ ing of a wage increase of 9.4 percent or am I indicating that if indeed such an increase is given that this Legis­ lature would intervene by way of legisla tion to roll back such an incr ease. There is no inclination on the part of this Governme nt to do so. HON. S. LYON: A final quest ion then, Mr. Speaker.

Will the First Minis ter give at least some tittle or sem b­ lance of moral supp ort for these publicly el ected offi­ cials who are trying to do some thing to combat the current situation that all Man itobans face, even though his Govern ment hasn't gotten around to facing the same problem? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, certainly from the 90 announcement by the Minister of Finance yesterday, the Leader of the Op position must be quite conscious of the fact that the Provincial Government as well as the Municip al Gove rnments in Manitoba are facing the same problem.

We're facing a problem of decreas­ ing revenues. We are confronted with a problem of economic instability due to the international reces­ sion. The province and the Mun icipal Governments do indeed suffer from the same kind of a problem We are all facing that problem together and municipal ities in the province are proceeding in different ways to deal with that particular problem.

I am satisfied that the exam ple that the Provincial Government is provid­ ing is being reflected by most municipal ities in the province; namely, to minimize any tax increases and at the same time to retain basic services to the rate­ payers in the municipal ities and at the same time not to perm it deficits or debts of municipal ities to go beyond any reason. That is what the Provincial Govern ment is doing and most of the municipal peo­ ple in this province are sound mana gers.

At the same time, they have compassion insofar as those in need and they're attempting -a nd the Min ister of Mun icipal Affairs could further comment in respect to this - but they are doing their utmost to face the difficult chal­ lenges that they're confronted with today. MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain. Spending control measures MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Finance. Yesterday in his statement. the Min ister outli ned some cost-saving action that might be taken by his Governme nt, some control measures.

I wonder if the Min ister of Finance would inform the House as to the size of the savings that he expects to flow from these measures. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. HON. V. SCHRO EDER: Mr. Speaker, when we look at the matter of cars and the increase in the number of cars, it would depend on how many would have come without the intercess ion of the new polic y. I don't expect that it will be a significant amount of money in that area. When it comes to highways and drainage, indeed over a period of 12 months there could be many many tens of milli ons of dollar s saved. When it comes to MR.

SPEAKER: Or der please. order please. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, one of the prob­ lems that we have when we have a schizophrenic Opp osition who are saying on the one hand decrease taxes and on the other hand when we suggest ways of cutting costs, they start hollering about oh. poor southern Man itoba, they can't have it both ways and, unfortunately, none of us can.

What we are doing is attempting in the best way possible to discover sav­ ings in public expenditures for the balance of this year, but the paper indicates very cl early that it is not only for the balance of this year, but indeed for next year as well. Because it is for next year as wel l, there

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 are, I expect, many tens of mil lions of dollar s that can be saved in those kinds of projects, the capital inten­ sive projects, that we would hope to be able to convert into labour intensive projects in order that we can provide more emplo yment for people in Ma nitoba without creating a larger deficit. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr . Speaker, I'll be a little more specific then. Can the Minister of Finance tel l us how many milli ons of dollars he expects to save through these measures in fiscal 19 82-83? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr . Speaker, I wouldn't want to give a specific estimate at this time.

Atthe end of the year, we will see when the final state ment for year-end comes in what had happened. There appears to be a belief by my friends on the other side that there will not be any savings. I believe that there will be and we will see when that statement comes. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the Quarterly Report which was tabled by the Minister shows an est imated $498 mil lion deficit being faced this year. Normally, in the projection of the deficit made at this time, there is a provision for an amount of money which is expected to lapse before the end of the year; in other words, not be spent.

I wonder if the Minister would advise the House how large a lapse factor is built into the esti­ mated deficit of 498 mil lion. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I see the Mem ber for Turtle Mountain has the report before him and I'm sure that he can read as well as we can.

I would point out, however, that one of the difficulties we have faced this year with respect to lapsing is the fact that we have insisted that each department on its own, without increases in funds to it, was asked to swallow the Health and Education Levy which was imposed after the Spending Estimates were prepared for the various departments and most departments are achieving that fairly wel l. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr .

Speaker, precisely because I can read, I find no pla ce in the Quarterly Report where the lapse factor is mentioned and that has been the practice in the past, that it has not been included, but it was discussed in Public Accounts as an additional factor that might be included in the Quarterly Report. There is a factor used in the calcu lation and surely the Min ister of Finance, faced with a deficit of 498 milli on, knows how many milli ons of dol lars are expected to lapse. I am simp ly asking him, Sir, what is that figure? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that it is not in the report, the number is $10 mil lion. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I congratulate and thank the Minis ter for that very direct answer. I hope it's an indication of things to come from the Min ister. Can he now advise the House, in view of the increased deficit, what he expe cts the borrow­ ing requirements, the revised borrowing requjre­ ments, of the Gove rnment to be for this fiscal year and is there sufficient authority al ready app roved by the Legislature? 91 HON. V.

SCHROEDER: The additional borrowing will be somewhere in the vicinity of $15 0 milli on and for most of it there is borrowing authority, but I will take the quest ion as notice and advise the Member for Turtle Mountain as to specifically the amount of authority that there is. MR. A. RANSOM: I trust then, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister will get that information within the next few days, because it's possible that he might have to seek additional borrowing authority from the Legisla ture.

In view of the fact there is a $498 mil lion deficit pro­ jected this year and a quick calcula tion on expendi­ tures and revenues shows that if expenditures increase next year atthe same rate as they appear to be increas­ ing this year and revenues do likewise, there will be an additional $360 milli on added to the deficit next year if the Govern ment does not raise taxes or cut spending as was outlined would be their pol icy yesterday by the Mi nister of Finance.

Does the Min ister of Finance anticipate any problem with borrowing in the range of $500 milli on this year and what is likely to be a very much lar ger figure next year? Does he anticipate any problem with that in the short term or if that magni­ tude of borrowing was to continue for, say, three or four years? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr . Speaker, I wouldn't want to specu late that far into the future.

What we were faced with about this time last year was econom ists, federal officials, other Finance Minis ters, invest ment dealers, etc., tel ling us that there was a corner that was going to be turned in 19 82 and, as we all know, it didn't come in Canada. It is hard to say what we are going to be look ing at for next year at this time. I will be going to a Finance Min isters' meeting next week at which time I trust we will be receiving - I know we will be receiving - updated figures from the Federal Government which may give us a little better idea as to our revenues for next year.

As the Member for Turtle Mountain knows, more than 30 percent of our revenue comes from transfer payments, a lar ge portion of it comes from both corporate and personal income taxes, both of which are ba sically estimated, not by · the provinces but by the Federal Governme nt, so that well over half of our revenue projections come out of Ottawa and not out of here and we do wait for some time after this time of the year until we find out exactly what our revenue will be.

Until we know what our revenue will be, I would suggest that there is no purpose in spec ulating as to the size of the deficit for next year or the year after for the difficulty or ease of borrowing certain amounts of money. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILM ON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my ques­ tion is to the Honourable Min ister responsi ble for the Environment. I wonder when the Min ister will be releas ing the report on the lead-in-soil removal pro­ gram in the Weston area, a report I understand has been in the Minister's hands for appr oximate ly a month.

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: There is a pol icy within the Depart­ ment of the Envi ronment, or the Departmental Man­ agement Division now, excuse me, Mr. Speaker, that any report of that nature is released within two weeks of its forwarding to the Min ister automatically, so that it takes the discretion for releas ing a report of that nature out of the pol itical arena and a report like that should not be stopped.

So I will determ ine if in fact it has been forwarded up to me. and if it has been for­ warded up to me within the past month I will get it to the member as soon as possible if he wishes to see it. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker. a supple mentary to the same Minis ter. I wonder. in view of the fact that public hearings were held May 4th. 5th and 6th of this year, when can we expect the decision of the Cle an Envir­ onment Comm ission with respect to air emission lim­ its for the INCO smelt er at Thom pson to be released. HON. J.

COWAN: The Cl ean Environme nt Comm is­ sion. of course. has made a report; that report has been made public and has been reported in the media as much as most likely two or three months ago. I can certa inly have a report forwarded to the Member for Tuxedo if he so wishes, or I can reference him to the approp riate newspaper

article s which were of a public nature. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the question that was asked me by the Honou rable Member for Emerson yesterday referring to the RTM plant in Sprague. I can say now that the operation at Sprague, which is one of the two that survived the last administration, is going to be recommended to be cl osed in early 19 83. The seven people that were emplo yed there recently, three of those people are currently working on a short-term job creation and their jobs have been terminated.

Other than this short­ term work that they're doing, the other four will be receiving notice when the recomme ndation is finally passed through the MHRC Board. The cl osing of the operation is in part a respo nsibil­ ity of the fact that CMHC no longer has a remote program; it is now rural and northern, and also due to the fact that the need as it is being assessed for family housing, the type of housing that was being produced there, is much more critical in areas a good distance from that part of the province. MACC loans renewal - interest rate MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agricultur e. Under loans made by MACC, the borrowers have the oppor­ tunity and requirement to renew every five years at a fixed interest rate. Can the Min ister confirm that the interest rate for a five-year renewal of an MACC loan to one of its farm customers will be, as of December 15 th, fixed at 12 .5 percent? 92 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'll take the question as notice. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I can save the Minister the trouble because I checked yes­ terday and that is the renewal rate. What I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker, is will he allo w customers of MACC, farm customers of MACC, who had to renew their five-year mortgages in April of this year at 17 percent fixed for five years, the oppor ­ tunity to renew currently at 12 .5 percent? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Speaker, tongue-in-cheek, if the honourable member had all the answers since before he asked the questions, he shouldn't be asking me those quest ions, but I will take the quest ion as notice.

In all serious ness, I believe there may be some legal impl ications to the contracts that have been signed. I will take the question as notice and get the answer for him. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, when the Min ister is taking that question as notice would he take into con­ sideration that a 17 percent, five-year renewal is very onerous on the viabil ity of those farm operations, and would he also take into consideration that he has a much touted Interest Rate Rel ief Program that he says will help out farmers whose farming operations are jeopardized by onerous interest rates, such as 17 per­ cent, and give every opportunity to give those custo­ mers of MACC the opportunity to renew at 12 .5 percent? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr .

Speaker, the honourable member also knows that when the loans were made - that's why I wanted to take the question as notice - that the borrowing rate that the Province of Manit oba was under at the time, the rate was set at that percentage and those monies flo wed that way. They are, in fact, related to in the figures that my honourable mem ber spoke about in the deficit of the Province of Man itoba. So, Mr . Speaker, in all seriousness to the honourable mem ber, I will take the question as notice. I recognize the situation, and we will examine what the impl ica­ tions of the suggestions are. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Mr . Speaker, one final question. Will the Min ister provide an answer to this question he's taking under advisement prior to the term ination of this mini-Session and prior to the 15 th of December? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the Honour able Memberf or Pembina just suggested that the Province of Man itoba and the people of Manitoba spend greater amou nts of money, while his Leader just indicated that the deficit was galloping and running out of course. So, Mr . Speaker, they can't have it both ways, and we understand that. Mr.

Speaker, we understand that the farmers of Man itoba and the people of Man itoba are going through very difficult times. Notwithstanding that, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opp osition has spoken and the honourable mem ber has contradicted him; one

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 ������������- saying, look, spend more. and the other indirectly saying spend less because you're spending too much. What do they want, Mr. Speaker? I will take the ques­ tion under advisement and try and get him the infor­ mation as soon as I can. MR. SPEAKER: Orde r ple ase. Order ple ase. Order please. The time for question period has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Ho nourable Me mber for Rie l and the proposed amendmen t thereto by the Leader of the Oppo sition, the Honourable Min ister of Ho using has 25 minutes remaining. The Minister of Housing. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I app re­ ciate this opportunity to finish off the discussion I had begun yesterday. I'd like to start where I left off and I was tal king about the difference between the atmosphere and the feel­ ings of northerners in these difficult circumstances in compar ison to what they cou ld be.

I said yesterday that while there was concern and uncertainty about the future in Northern Man itoba and that those con­ cerns and uncertainties were rational concerns, the element that was missing in Northern Man itoba, the element that many might expect to be there but isn't there, is the element of despai r. I had allu ded to the fact that there was no despair in Northern Manitoba because of the fee ling on the part of many northerners that this Govern ment is both listening to them and reacting to their needs in a positive, a responsi ble and a conscientious way.

I mentioned the fact that many Min isters have tra­ vel led to Northern Man itoba. In fact, al most all of the Ministers at one time or another have visited parts of my constituency and the constituencies of my col­ leagues in that part of the province. Their presence there was welcome, and their willi ngness to listen was welcome. Mr. Speaker, I said as well that the feelin g on the part of northerners is not one that is based on the image of this Govern ment, it is not necess arily based on media reports, it is based on the practical policies, the programs that we have impleme nted.

I would like to take a few minutes to mention a few of the things that have indicated that this Government is sensitive to the needs of northerners. Mr. Speaker, just to take a couple of smal l exam ples. When the Gove rnment introduced the Interest Rate Relie f Program back last spring, they had made spe­ cial provisions for northern homeowners. Mr . Speaker. there have not been many occasions over the last five years when programs announced in this Legisla ture have made special provisions for northerners. It may not have amounted to much.

It amounted to a differ­ ence of $25, an additional $25 per month that might be eligible to someone who was having trouble meeting their mortgage comm itment. It may not be that signif­ icant amount of money, but it's the principle that's involv ed - the principle and the recognition of the fact that we face certa in adversities in Northern Man itoba which others don't face. There's another example, and that was when the Department of Education announced additional relo­ cation grants available to those people who live in other than major southern urban centres.

The grant, I believe, amounted to some $200, and it's not a signifi­ cant amount in terms of the overall expense that a student might incur in travellin g from Wabowden or some other northern point to come to the University of Manit oba, but it's the recognition of the fact that there are inequal ities, that inequal ities exist. We haven't glossed over those, and Manit obans in the northern part of the province recognize that and appreciate it. Those are two small exam ples.

I'm going to list some others, some concrete things that have been accomplis hed and concrete exam ples of the recognition of those differences. We could talk about the job creation. Mr. Speaker, the Department of Labour, the Department of Northern Affairs have spent mil lions of dollars in creating projects that are deemed to be worthwhile by the commun ities that those jobs are directed at. The communities feel that those projects are worthwhile.

They're doing projects in the co mmunity, completing community projects, developing community assets that are valuable and worthwhile, and northerners appr eciate that. This Government has fulfi lle d its comm itment to northern workers to establ ish workers' advisers offi­ ces, to improve the Workers Com pensation system. It has fulfilled those comm itments and the workers in Northern Man itoba, the people that are involved in the mining industry and the forestry industries there. appr eciate those benefits.

We have a renewed interest in maintaining and preserving the natural resources that make the northern part of this province a rich and attractive pla ce to live. We have a reforestat ion pro­ gram; we have a nursery that is being establ ished near The Pas. Those are concrete example s of our com­ mitment to Northern Man itoba. Mr. Speaker, within the Department of Housing we have recently held a preconference plann ing sess ion in Flin Flon. We, for the first time, got together all the major actors in the provision of housing to remote and northern parts of this province.

We brought together · the Department of Indian Affairs, the tribal councils, the Manit oba Metis Federation, CMHC, MHRC, inter­ ested groups, commun ity councils - representatives from the Northern Association of Commun ity Coun­ cils.

It was a first because it pul led together groups who had over the last 20-30 years provided housing individually through their own departments on an ad hoe basis without any co-ordination of the polic ies or the del ivery mechan isms that make the del ivery of housing effective and cost efficient. 93 There was a recognition after the first number of hours of the convening of that conference that there are things we can do to improve the efficiency of del ivery.

There are overlaps, there are bottlenecks, that each of us in turn as a promoter of programs and a deliv erer of programs can do some thing about, and in a sense it rem inded me of the process that occurred in Portage at the Economic Summ it; a recognition that we are not only the agents who are going to solve the problems, but in some senses we can and we are the bottlenecks to progress, that we can do things at our

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 own shops to improve the deliv ery of housing, that we can do things with each other to improve the effi­ ciency and to improve the kinds of housing that we are delive ring. Mr. Speaker, that conference was well received by all representatives. It was particularly appreci ated by northern representatives who attended and I have had nothing but good feedback on that initial meeting and we will carry that through to establish the needs, the perceived needs and the real needs, both in terms of housing and how housing fits into the larger commun­ ity context of community developm ent.

We will be working hard with northerners to ensure that the next four years improve the del ivery of housing, improve the standards of housing in the north. Mr. Speaker, the Min ister of Northern Affairs announced not too long ago the establishme nt of a Treaty Land Entitlement Commission, a comm ission that is long overdue and a comm ission which at long last is being taken as a sign of a comm itment to fulfil promises made in the past. It is an important step and it is a step which is seen with a certain degree of jubilation, I suspect, on the part of many of our Native northerners. Mr .

Speaker, we saw the signing of a Special ARDA Agreement. a special two-year agreement. We had two or three weeks ago, in Novem ber, the signing of a new Northlands Agreement, a $18 6.2 milli on joint comm itment to the development of the northern part of this province. We could spend a bit of time, Mr . Speaker, on that Northlands Agreement.

The last Northlands was initiated in 19 75 and I believe signed in 19 76 or early 19 77, and perhaps they used the sign­ ing of the new agreement as an indication as wel l, and something that northerners wel l recognize and has been often stated by my col leagues and myself, that this Government is comm itted to the idea of co­ operative federalism; that we intend to work with whomever to ensure that the needs of the people of this province are met.

The North lands Agreement is going to provide the much needed impetus to create jobs, to provide for thetrai ning that northerners require and deserve and I think it's going to provide a certain amount of stabil ity and a certain amount of comfort to the people who live in particularly the remoter parts of this province. It is seen as someth ing that can give them direction and give their communities direction until 19 87.

We could have gone on and patched up the North­ lands Agreement here and there and made do with the kinds of comm itments we could get from time to time from the Federal Govern ment, but a five-year agree­ ment and the signing of that five-year agreement is a significant achievement. It's an achievement because the communities can now plan. They can now plan for their own development; they can plan in a long-term sense for the training of individuals in those communi­ ties and those are the two significant things that nor­ therners want most. It can't be overlooked. Mr .

Speaker, those are just a few of the things that northerners have noticed, that northerners have appreciated in terms of the comm itment of this Gov­ ernment to Northern Man itoba and there have been other things. There were increases in the Northern Patient Transportation Program which has not gone without notice in Northern Man itoba and there have 94 been numerous other things which from time to time this Govern ment has seen fit to pass through this Legisla ture and through the various departments to improve the conditions in Northern Man itoba. It is respected and it is appreciated by northerners.

I think that is part of the reason why, while there are those clouds hanging on the horizon, there is no despa ir and there is a recognition of our comm itment to Northern Man itoba. Mr . Speaker, moving away from the northern part of the province in particular, moving to the more general, we have heard over the last number of days and par­ ticularly after the del ivery of the tabling of the Quar­ terl y Report, a lot of crying about the deficit, about the state of the economy. Mr .

Speaker, it's been pointed out time and time again - the Conf erence Board has confirmed it - that this province relative to other pro­ vinces is in pretty fair shape. Mr . Speaker, we are not saying that we have done all we wished we could do. Cl early we wish we could do more; clearly we would like to be able to do more, but circumstances being what they are, we have been unable to do more. We have done what we could to help those who most needed our help. We don't make any apologie s for that.

The people of the province have not demanded any apolog ies; the people of the province recognize more than most that we indeed have done the best that was possible. Mr. Speaker, we could take for a minute jus t one aspect of that Conference Board Report and that was the fact that retail sales in Manitoba are maintaining a high rate desp ite what is happ ening in other provin­ ces. We could tie that in and we could ask ourselves why is that the case? Why is that the case that our retail sales are up there? Why is that? We recognize that if we don't have retail sales that means more business closures.

That means the people that are working now for retail outlets across the province don't have jobs. It means more layoffs. The fact that the retail sales level is at the level it's at is a sign ificant one in terms of our economy and we have to try and pinpoint some of the things that are happen ing that maintain that level. Mr. Speaker, just a few things that we could mention that have kept dol lars in the pockets of consumers, which is what really relates to retail spend ing. That's why it is happen ing.

We could talk about the tuition freeze that kept money in the students' pockets; we could talk about rent controls that kept money in the pockets of tenants; we could talk about the transit freeze that kept money in the pockets of those people using the transit fares; we could talk about the elimi ­ nation of the ad valorem tax on gasoline; we could talk about the minimum wage increase, to put more money in the pockets of our low-income earners: we could talk about the increased social allo wances that puts more money in the pockets of those people. The bottom level of our income groups, Mr.

Speaker, spend their money. They don't invest in the stock market; they invest in the retail outlets of Manit oba, they keep the money at home. Mr . Speaker, we have said time and time again that the people of this pro­ vince deserve to have their standard of living main­ tained. All of these measu res that I have mentioned have been measures to encourage and to keep money in the pockets of the average person.

There are other things. The fourth year of the Hydro rate freeze keeps money in the pockets of Manit o­ bans; the Pensioner s' School Tax Assistance puts money back into the pockets of our pensioners; the expanded CHAP grants puts money back into the pockets and creates emplo yment. Mr. Speaker, we have done any number of things to keep the low­ income earner in this province going. Mr. Speaker, whether we like to believe it or not, it is the average person that fuels this economy. We can throw up our hands and we can say there is nothing we can do. We'll cut spend ing but, Mr.

Speaker, all of those dollar s in every one of those instances that I've mentioned have been returned to the Province of Manitoba and they have kept the economy going. They've kept our retail sales levels where they are and, do we get any thanks from the mem bers opposite? No. Mr. Speaker, there is one other factor. The mem bers opposite like to ignore. they like to downpla y it and I believe it hurt them during the last ele ction and I don't want to bring up that old bad mem ory.

However, this is one factor that I think has been overlooked probably by mem bers opposite, perhaps intentionally, and that is the fact that the popula tion of this province has increased by 10 ,000 people. Mr . Speaker, it isn't, in the terms of the Leader of the Oppo sition, riff-raff floa ting back to the province. The fact is the last time, Mr. Speaker, that there was this kind of dramatic increase in the population of the province was back when we had an NOP Gove rnment in 19 74. Mr .

Speaker, the fact is that of the 10 ,000 people that are moving back into this province, most of that increase is in famil ies. Mr . Speaker, who does the spend ing in this province? It's fam ilies. So the popula­ tion that's coming back into Manit oba is creating to that retail sales leve l. It goes along with all of the other measu res which create retail sales and keep small business in this province going. So, when we're look ing at the Conference Board statistics and the Conference Board tel ls us we're not doing bad, maybe there's a reason.

We would hate to attribute it to the Govern ment but, maybe, just maybe, it's happen ing. Mr. Speaker, it would be nice if we could predict with any degree of certainty what the next year or two years or five years would bring in terms of our eco­ nomic recovery, in terms of a world-wide recovery. Unfortunately, Mr.

Speaker, back in early 19 81, in May, I believe I heard an economic forecast - it may have been from the Conference Board or it may have been from some other board that from time to time makes these announcements - and they were tel ling us then that economic recovery was around the corner, surely in the spring of 19 82, then it was the fall of 19 82 and then the spring of '83. Wel l, Mr . Speaker, the economists are no longer making those bold predictions about when economic recovery is going to be here. Mr .

Speaker, we, as Govern ment, could not go on our own predictions necessarily or the predictions of other economists who are making those bold predictions about recov­ ery. Mr . Speaker, all we can do is live within our means and do the best we can, both with our revenues and in terms of what kind of expenditures need to be made in the best interests of the public. Mr . Speaker, it would be nice if we could make some predictions that had 95 some certainty, but it isn't possible. Mr. Speaker, what we are doing is work ing as prudently as we can with the resources that we have. Mr.

Speaker, if I might, just for a minute, spend some time on some of the economic initiatives that this Government has taken. We have a list in the Throne Speech of initiatives that the Gove rnment has undertaken and will undertake over the next number of months to ensure that the firm footing that we have maintai ned, the foundation that we have laid in terms of our social and our econom ic base, are not eroded by further economic turbulence in the international scene. One of the ones that obviously affect me as Min ister of Housing is the Homes in Man itoba Program.

We made an an nouncement in August of 19 82 to the effect that we hope to be able to create 2,000 jobs over the next year; that we hope to be able to bring to Manit obans a thousand or more units of housing. Mr. Speaker, I don't claim that this is going to be the salva tion. It is not a panacea for the problems, but the fact is that it meets two very important objectives. One, Mr. Speaker, it provides much needed housing for Man itobans and, two, it does provide jobs. I am told by the industry that for every house built, we're creating two person-year jobs.

So for every unit that we build, we're creating jobs and for the 1, 000 units that we're predicting by Mar ch of '83, we're going to create those 2,000 jobs. Mr . Speaker, we have some further projections that would indicate that we could be stimulating the economy to the tune of appr oxi­ mately $70 millio n and the number of units that we're contributing could be as high as 1, 500. One of the initiatives that we're taking is to provide some nonprofit, public, family housing. Over the last five years there has been very little, if any, activity in nonprofit fam ily housing.

This year, to date, the Department of Housing has committed approximately 17 3 units of public housing, representing about $7.3 milli on. In addition, we will have the individual initia­ tives under Home s in Man itoba which, at a minimum, will represent $14 mill ion, and other builder initiatives which will increase that total. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the Home s in Manitoba Program, we have had some concern exp ressed on · the part of some that there is too much bureaucracy, that there are too many problems. Let's take a look at some of those suggestions.

First, is that the $64,000 limit was seen to be a prob­ lem. The fact is that the Man itoba Homebu ilders says that isn't so; the fact is that in one report, two builders were quoted as having some concerns when in fact those builders are part of the program as wel l. Some concern was expressed by the Bank of Mo ntreal that it was too involved to be bothered with and the fact is that three other major banks and numerous credit unions didn't have the same concerns. Mr.

Speaker, there was some concern about the limits to renovations, the fact that the $15 ,000 that we had targeted as an ideal amount for renovat ions was too high. Mr . Speaker, we considered the options when it came to both the dollar figure for the upper lim it, the upper cost of housing, and we decided on a modest home for Manit obans, and we set that as a target, and builders have responded admirably, with­ out any difficulty. Cert ainly there are builders who

would say, wel l, we didn't have that written the way we would have liked. Mr . Speaker, we didn't write it for the builders. We wrote it to promote homes, affordable homes for Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, when we're tal king about the renova­ tion aspect, clearly there are many other renovation programs which any homeowner can tap into. We have Critical Home Repair ; we have a Canada Home Repair Program; we have the Federal Residential Rehabil itation Assistance Program that mount up to $1 0,000 in assistance for renovations. So we set that target because, Mr .

Speaker, when you're renovating a home you're creat ing jobs. In fact, there are some indications, some people would say, that home con­ struction and home renovation create more jobs than many other capital types of projects. Mr. Speaker, it is one of the economic initiatives. It is an important one; it has twin social and economic objectives, and it isn't a panacea but it is an important initiative and one which has been accepted and one which, given time, will be a successful and important addition to Man itoba. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G.

FILMON: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is a privilege and indeed, a thrill to rise to speak and make a contribution in this Debate.

It's one that I eagerly look forward to each year and I was ple ased to listen to other speakers, many who have been in this Assembly much longer than I, state their feelings of joy and eagerness to participate in the Throne Speech Debate and to have an opportunity once again to actively participate in the democratic process on behalf of their constituents and review the Govern­ ment's record, offer some advice and constructive criticism and really give mean ing to the democratic principles for which we stand and for which our ele c­ torate send us here to guard. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to say to you that we welcome you back in your position as Chairman of this Assem­ bly. We know that you will continue to operate with the same standard of fairness and impartiality that you've shown over the years, and we wish the best of con­ tinued good health so that you may continue to pro­ vide us with that guidance and leadership. I wish to, as well, welcome the new Deputy Speaker, the new Chai rmen of Comm ittees, both of whom I believe offer us fresh faces, fresh voices and a fresh approach to their duties in this Assembly. I would as well, Mr.

Speaker, like to bid a word of welcome to each of the new Min isters in the front bench. Unfortunately, someone will have to convey that message for me, but I certainly wish them well as they face their new chal lenges and responsibilities as members of the Treasury Bench. I know that they join a rather weary and spent group. a group that in some cases has certainl y been exposed for their inc ompe­ tence in handling some of the affa irs of Govern ment during the past year. and so certainly I think these fresh voices and faces to Cabinet will give us some hope of improvement in the future.

It's been said earl ier that there was a reservoir, a great reservo ir, of talent over on that side for Cabinet and this gives an opportun ity to put more of them into 96 leadership roles. Unfortunately, I think that reservo ir has been exposed as a cesspool within the past year, one that is characterized more by waste and misman­ agement than it is by talent, but in any case these new Ministers certainly have a challenge to face. Looking at them, I have some comments that I'd like to bring to them. Each of them, of course, has some­ thing different to bring to their portfolio.

The Minister who just preceded me, the Honourable Min ister res­ ponsible for Housing, I have a number of things that I'd like to say about him and will spend considerable time a little later. He, of course, has one of the largest challe nges trying to clean up a rather disastrous situa­ tion left to him by two former interim Min isters of Housing in that ad ministration who, through their incompetence and lack of understanding, have brought forth programs with no guideli nes and comm itted money when they had no idea what the costs would be and done all sorts of things for which he is now paying the price.

We have a new Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and, of course, we have very little upon which to judge his potential by. Certainly, given his contribu­ tions to the last Sess ion, he really hasn't given us anything to indicate what he's capable of doing. In fact, I know that his appointment was as much of a surprise to us as it was to member s on that side. In fact, I understand that his own particular response to it was one of surprise. He was heard in discussion with a former student of his to say, just imagine, a year or so ago I didn't even know how to spell "Min ister" and now I are one.

The Mi nister responsible for Government Services, of course, he has had a great deal to say as a member of the back bench and we'll see if he's capa ble of doing anything now that he's on the front bench and has an opportunity to do so. The Min ister of Labour, of course, holds great prom­ ise. She too, of course, comes into a portfolio with a great deal of prom ise and, in fact, the only concern we on this side have is whether or not she is going to be able to adjust to living on one income this year. - (Interjection)- Mr.

Speaker, perhaps they can get Marty to write a few more letters to the editor, and that will solve the problem. Mr . Speaker, the noteworthy fact about all of these new appoi ntments, of course, is that they all are school teachers and that brings the number in Cabinet now to five school teachers and two university teachers - and seven out of 18 , I would have to say as a repre­ sentative of any particular special interest group or discipline, has got to have some weaknesses and it's got to have some drawbacks to have such an over­ representation of any one particular interest group.

Some of my best friends, of course, are school teachers, so I say this in a totally non partisan sense. It just isn't healthy for any organ ization - I would say the same if we had such an over-rep resentat ion of lawy­ ers. I would say the same if we had such an over­ representation of real estate people. I would say the same if we had such an over-representat ion of engi­ neers. I would say the same if we had an over­ represenation of any particular special interest group in Cabinet. I don't think it's healthy, and I don't think the Manit ­ oba Federation of Labour would even support it. I

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 think they must be concerned to have all of their deci­ sions made by people of one particular special inter­ est group. I will, Mr.

Speaker. as well, say that we do have other moves that have taken place, other ele vations within the Govern ment We have, of course, the Member for Springfield, we have the Mem ber for Ell ice, we have the Memb er for El mwood, and the Member for Con­ cordia, all of whom have been el evated to the third row, so they now get a better view of proceedings; and perhaps. if they're really attentive and concentrate on what's going on down below. maybe next time they'll be in a position to be brought forward to a position of responsibil ity. -(I nterjection)- You are the first on the list, to the Member for Springfield.

Inevitably, Mr. Speaker, after those kind words of introduction, I think that I should deal with the matter at hand, the Throne Speech. I think that, of course, what it says is important, but perhaps what's more important is what it fails to say; that's right. Because, it talks rather laughably about an activist government, and yet, Mr.

Speaker, as I reviewed it in some detail, I got a clue about what this government means by activist Govern ment, because I counted the number of times that certa in words were used in the Throne Speech, and particula rly we'll use as an exam ple the word "review" or "reviewing." That was three times in the Throne Speech. Then we have the word "consult, consultation or consulting," that was nine times. Then we had "develop, deve loped, develop ment" - 12 times, Mr. Speaker.

Then we have "conference" four times; "commissioned" seven times; "committee" three times; assorted references to "plan ning" and "reviewing" and all those sorts of things. Wher e's the action? Where's the activist Gov­ ernment? It isn't there, Mr . Speaker, because we can't expect any action out of this Gove rnment, they haven't given us any before and what they have has been a total failure. So, now, they're into a mode of reviewing and con­ sulting and appointing comm issions and comm ittees and confere ncing and all those wonderful things, but no action.

So let not the peop le of Man itoba be conned into thinking that this Throne Speech means that anything new, or different, or worthwhile will happen from this Governme nt. Mr . Speaker, the one word that doesn't appear in this particular Throne Speech, but characterizes and pervades everything that this Government is about is the word "desperate." You can read it between every line; you can see it in every action, Mr. Speaker.

They are so desper ate to be seen as activist that when they do have a few minor initiatives, they announce and they reannounce and they reannounce again every new little program here and there, a few jobs here, a few make -work projects there, and it was again evi­ dent in yesterday's announcement by the Mi nister of Labour where she recounted in one par ticular new announcment about four or five other former an­ nouncements that had been made again and again and again. Mr.

Speaker, it's becoming evident that the response of this Government to the mega projects is their "meager" projects, those make-work, short term, very, very few emplo yed peop le projects that will last for less than a year until they run out of the money that 97 ----- they're spending at the taxpayers' expense. Mr . Speaker, they're desperate to be seen as compe­ tent, yet all we get is waste and mismanagement, and we don't have to look any further than yesterday's announcement of a $498 milli on deficit projection for this year.

We don't have to look any further than the information that's been coming out on the housing programs - waste and mismanagement, Mr . Speaker, and it's all there. I'll quote from a recent article, "The poor performance of the program is being blamed on the Government's lack of preparation before announc­ ing it, its inability to gear up its bureaucracy at the speed promised and on the failure of its guidelines to fit the needs of the industry or the perspective owners." That's what being said about their program. I don't have to say it, Mr . Speaker. It's out there and everyb­ ody knows.

I'll quote again from a spokesman for the Bank of Nova Scotia, "The necessary drafting of the program wasn't done. Normally when you have a program you know what you're doing before you announce it," he said. Wel l, that's what people think about the pro­ grams that this Governme nt's com ing out with. That's the waste and mismana gement we are tal king about, Mr. Speaker. They've blown the mega projects and I don't have to say very much about that because that's been well covered by other mem bers who have spoken. Waste and mismanagement; let's have another one, Mr . Speaker.

How about the McK enzie Seeds refinancing - $3 mil lion. We're going to refinance Mc Kenzie Seeds. Now look at what the Provincial Auditor just said in his Annual Report to the Assembly and this is regarding A.E. McK enzie Company Limited and subsidiaries. "The corpora tion's operation continues to be viable without any subsidy from the province and the revised projection for the 19 82 fiscal year is a break-even situation. Why do you need to refinance then? Do you need to cover up all of the misma nagement that hap­ pened before?

Do you need to cover up all of that waste that you incurred because you improperly managed it when it was under your control and you want to hide that, sweep it under the rug by wiping out the debt load that it's carrying due to your inappr op­ riate moves? That is I think, Mr. Speaker, what this Govern ment wants to do, or worse still, I don't know whether or not the Min ister responsi ble for patronage, the "Boss Dai ly" of Brandon East maybe wants a per­ sonal slush fund over there and he wants to have more money at his disposa l; so there goes $3 mil lion into McK enzie Seeds. Mr.

Speaker, this Govern ment is desperate to be seen as a caring and concerned government, but it's harming the very people they said they wanted to help. Unemplo yed are up 24,000, Mr. Speaker. The payroll tax is destroying more jobs than they can create with all the government dolla rs that they're spend ing. The elderly and people on fixed income are being hit by higher property taxes throughout this province, Mr . Speaker, and they can't even stay in their homes. These are the pe ople that this Govern­ ment said they care about.

The payroll tax is impact­ ing on charitable organizations, public service organ­ izations, all sorts of institutions, health care, that never had to bear it before; that's the people this Govern ment said they cared about and they're harm-

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 ing the very people that they said they cared about. Mr . Speaker. small businesses - the people that again they said they were concerned about - bank­ ruptcies are substantially up in this province. In fact, at this point in time bankruptcies in business are up 75 percent in this province over a year ago; yet they said they cared about smal l business and the pe ople who are in difficulty can't even qual ify for assistance under their program. The payroll tax is absolutely wiping them out. Mr .

Speaker. that's what this Govern ment's care and concern is all about - harming the very peo­ ple they say they're concerned about. Interest rate relief - no one who really needs it can qual ify, Mr . Speaker. On the education side, they give with one hand and they take away with the payroll tax and the other things, Mr . Speaker. This is the kind of desper ate government we're dealin g with. They're desperate to appear activist and yet, as I said, all they say in the Throne Speech is study, develop, review, plan - no action, Mr . Speaker, no action.

Not even the Min ister responsible for the Environment. who in his day as critic in the Opp osition calle d for active and interven­ tion in the environment, demanded action and now has both the power and the responsibil ity with which to carry out that action and can't do it. Mr. Speaker. He can't do it because he doesn't have - I don't know what - the courage of his convictions, the support of his colleagues. I don't know what he needs to carry out the actions that he wanted. I don't know whether he just doesn't care or whether he's totally lack ing support. Let's talk about a few of those things.

Let's talk about a few of those things, Mr . Speaker. When this Minister was the environment critic he said that tougher emission standards should be imposed upon the smelters in Northern Manitoba. He has not come forth with any comm itment, any program to toughen up those emission standards. He just had a Cl ean Environment Comm ission Hearing earlier this year at INCO and he has not toughened up the standards. He has the power. When is he going to do it, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker, he comm issioned a report on Baygon.

He said that there was great harm and danger poten­ tial to the Province of Man itoba and its people by virtue of using Baygon in the form that it was when this administration had to fight an incipient attack of enceph al itis, Mr. Speaker. He criticized this Govern­ ment for utilizing Baygon. Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: Or der ple ase. The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. J. COWAN: Yes. I would request through you, Mr. Speaker, that the person now spe aking entertain a question. I'd ask him if he'd be prepared to address a question? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo.

MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker. I hope that you'll add this time to my allo tted time at the end of my speak ing Mr. Speaker. this Min ister comm issioned the study and after the study was done, he sat on it. He wouldn't 98 release it. He wouldn't al low people to debate it pub­ licly for ages. You know why, Mr. Speaker?

Because the study concl uded that there was no harm to the use of Baygon in any respect and I'll quote from the study's conclu sions: "A program of aerial spraying with the pesticide Baygon is environmentally accep­ table at this time." I'll quote further: "The evidence presented at the hearings also indicates that the 19 81 single aerial dispersal of Baygon into the environment with the low concentration used by the aerial spraying program posed no appreciable threat to human health ort o fish and wildlife." Wel l, he has this report and, Mr.

Speaker, he doesn't believe this report, I assume, because he still has other things that he wants to say about it. Wel l, he has the opportunity and also the abil ity with his power and position to ban it com­ ple tely, but he hasn't done it, Mr. Speaker. So where's the courage of his convictions? When is he going to act? Where is the activist former environmentalis t that we now have as a Minister? Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech talks about con­ cerns for water suppl ies in this province, concerns for threats to water suppli es. But you know what, Mr. Speaker?

There is a very serious concern for Shoal Lake, the City of Winnipeg's water supply. I'll quote from the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker. I'll quote from the Throne Speech. "Water qual ity and supply is criti­ cal to the maintenance and enhancement of our qual­ ity of life.

My Gove rnment will introduce new mea­ sures to manage surface runoff in ground water suppl ies, including modernized means to al locate, license, protect and control this important resource." But neither he nor the Mi nister of Urban Affairs will come out definitively and say that they will stand with the City of Winnipeg and oppose the threat from the 350-cottage lot development to the city's water supply in Shoal Lake. Neither one of them will stand up with the City of Winnipeg and say that they will help them to protect it; none of them, Mr. Speaker. So what is the city faced with doing?

The city is faced with spending $28,000 sending a folder around to everyone of its residents to tell them what concerns they have and to tell them what threat exists to the city's water supply if that cottage lot development at Shoal Lake is allo wed to go forward. They have to spend that money because their Provincial Governme nt will not support them to go out and protect it. They won't intervene with the Federal Govern ment and urge that Federal Govern ment to act. Instead, they have to conduct a public information campaign at a cost of $28,000 to try and get this Provincial Govern ment to take a position. Mr.

Speaker, this Government is despe rate to appear as an open Governme nt. All of their talk is about con­ sultation, review, comm ittees, comm issions. They're bringing forward Freedom of Information legislation, but the truth is that they sit on reports; they withhold information from the Opp osition all the time. Look at the Quarterly Financial Report. It was ava il­ able, but they wouldn't put it forward because they were afraid to have the Leader of the Opp osition given the opportunity to hammer them with their own report and so they sat on it. They hid it from public view.

They did the same thing with the report on the Workers Com pensation Board Review. In fact, more so than that, they took an open judicial inquiry and made it a cl osed inquiry with one person as the inquiree. Then

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 after that. Mr. Speaker. of course the report came out in an edited version so it could n't be used to identify anything, any case or anybody. So, consequently, nobody could defend any of the recommendations or nobody could agree with any of the recommendations or conclusions because it had been all watered through, all come through as puree, rather than as solid information. Mr. Speaker, why are they so desper ate? Let's look at a few of the indicators.

When I speak to people in my constituency, when I speak to interested Manit obans whether that be out in the community or in church or in the schools or in the downtown business commun­ ity or jus t people that I meet on the street, what are they concerned about? They're concerned about: one, the economy; two, jobs; and three, taxes. What's their assess ment of this Govern ment and its action on those th ree major areas?

Wel l, you know, during the last few years of the previous Conservative Govern­ ment, the New Democr atic Party in Op position were constantly compla ining about the lack of growth in the Man itoba economy despite the fact that emplo y­ ment in Manit oba had increased over 30,000 during the years 19 78 to '81 . They were compla ining about the lack of growth, and manufacturing shipme nts had increased by 53 percent during that same period of time. The manufacturing investment had increased by 63 percent during that same period. They complai ned that wasn't good enough.

Now, this past year under their jurisdiction, under a New Dem ocratic Government, Mr. Speaker, has seen unprecedented layoffs throughout the province, a total halt to investment in most sectors of the econ­ omy and a loss of jobs in excess of 24,000 in this province bringing the total unemplo yment roll to 52,000. Now most fair-minded Man itobans, and I think that includes us on this side, would recognize that this Gove rnme nt isn't totally responsible for that. We rec­ ognize that.

What is apparent, however, is how much out of touch with reality this group were when they published that document by their Leader during the course of the ele ction campaign, "A Cle ar Choice for Man itobans" and how much out of touch with reality they remain today. As an exam ple, in their first year of office, increased spending 18 percent over the previous year's Budget which they complain ed loudly was an ele ction-year Budget, an attempt by the Tories to give away the ship. That's what they said and, yet, this year they increased it by 18 percent overt hat so-cal led election year Budget.

After criticizing restraint in spending controls. they now find themselves practising what they say is repriorization. How the mighty are fall ing. More so than that, the Premie r has the audacity to say, we've coped rather wel l. In fact, he says that, given the opportunity, he'll cure all of the province's economic ills and further , if there were an NDP Government in Ottawa, the whole country's economic ills would be cured. That's what he said in B.C. I want to tell you, Mr .

Speaker, asking the NDP to cure the economic ills of this country or this province is like bringing the arson­ ist in to put out the fire because he knows how it got started. Mr. Speaker. the Premier says we're the best of the worst. He keeps talking about the Conference Board Report, so did the Minister responsi ble for Hous ing. 99 He says despite the tough times, we've performed better than other provinces. Well that's little comfort, as my col league for St. Norbert said, to the 52,0 00 unemp loyed in this province.

That's little comfort to the farmers and the businesses who have gone broke during the past year and they have gone broke in record numbers, Mr. Speaker. I told you about the increase in the bankruptcies in businesses being up 75 percent. Wel l, in case the mem bers opposite didn't know, farm bankruptcies were up 380 percent this year over last year. That's what has been happ ening around here. That's the things that they take pride in, I suppose, on that side. Worse than that, it's a total misuse of the Confer­ ence Board statistics, Mr.

Speaker, because the strength of the Manit oba economy has alw ays been in its diversity. What that has meant is that not one sector of our economy accounts for more than 10 percent of our gross provincial products. We're broadly based and so, as a conseq uence, when times are good, we don't boom as much as the rest of the economy in the country. When times are bad, we don't suffer as badly. It has been that way historically, but of course the Premier has never understood that. He's never looked at what has happened before. He is just trying to make a case based on now and it's not good enough.

It's not working and it won't convince Man itobans. Even today, Mr . Speaker, when under questioning by the Leader of the Opp osition , he was asked what is he projecting in terms of Budget for next year? What will the deficit be? What is the target in terms of spend­ ing increase that they're giving to the departments to prepare their Estimates? He said there was no target. They weren't prepared to estimate; they weren't pre­ pared to aim at any particular figure. Mr . Speaker, that is absolutely inexcusable.

To say that you have nothing for which you're targeting when you're prepar ing your Estimates is absolutely inexcu­ sable. Mr. Speaker, if you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there and that's what this Gove rnment is doing. They don't know where they are going and so they can take any road and grasp at any straw. It will get them there, but the public will be the ones who suffer. Mr . Speaker, what is this Government doing about · the No. 2 priority that people have told us about, jobs. They're doing nothing, Mr . Speaker.

They lost the mega projects and with it they lost, in terms of Alcan, an $800 milli on investment and 600 jobs. They lost all the jobs to do with the potash mine; they lost all the jobs in investment. I won't even spend time on it because all of the others on this side are going to be spend ing a lot more time and they will make them know and understand just exactly what they have done for this province in terms of the job losses. Mr .

Speaker, if they haven't been effective in dealing with the economy; if they haven't been effective in bringing jobs to Man itoba; if they spent wastefu lly and caused a massive increase in our provincial deficit; at least maybe they've been successful in addressing the social and human resource concerns that they said they were going to do when they were working for elec tion. Look at housing. Let's start with the housing and go back to that aga in, the so-called cornerstone of their social programming. The Minister responsible today

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 said how it would stimula te the economy, how it would stimulate the construction sector and create jobs. It has all of the ele ments which they say they are concerned about, but what do they do? They announce a $50 mil lion program on August 13 th of this year with no guideli nes, no criteria, no idea what they are going to do to fulfil that mandate and no prior consultation with builders or lending institutions.

It has not been discussed with the board or the senior staff of MHR C and I have that on authority from one of their appoin­ tees to the Board of MHRC who is totally frustrated with this Government's action on housing. They bring it from on high from the so-call ed ERIC Comm ittee of Cabinet and it is a totally impractical, totally wasteful approac h. They just say to the people in the corpora­ tion, never mind, spend the money, we've got to do someth ing: we've got to fulfil our comm itments.

Six weeks after that program was announced the criteria were so sketchy that builders sti ll didn't know what to expect from it. Banks and lending institutions were cal led in, and in the beginning the lending insti­ tutions totally refused to participate because the crite­ ria were such that they didn't meet CMHC guidelines for insured loans.

So they went back to the drawing board, they revised the criteria so at least they met CMHC guidel ines for insured loans and then only some of the lending institutions agreed to participate. -(I nterjection)- Then you should have consulted before you made the announceme nt. That's the point, to the Attorney-General. The builders found that the criteria didn't dovetail with CMH C's criteria for their $3.000 grant, so all the houses they had started since the date of announce­ ment in August had to be stopped sometime in Sep­ tember.

One firm tel ls me they laid off 50 pe ople because these guidelines didn't meet the expected criteria. They didn't match with CMHC's criteria and so they had to throw out all of those housing starts they were going to work on. The Governme nt says that they only wanted to pro­ vide money for modest homes, that their program is more successful than CMHC. Here are the figures, as of mid-November CMHC had issued and effected grants for 3,394 starts in this province under their program.

These people today, according to a news report, have made comm itments for 60; according to the Minister yesterday it is cl oser to a hundred and theirs is far more successful than CMHC. They've reinvented the wheel and they've got a much better program than CMHC. CMHC has over 3,000 starts going and these people have only 60 to 10 0 going. I don't know. Mr. Speaker. I think they didn't want to spend the money at all, just as they didn't want to spend the money on their program of Interest Rate Relie f.

They said to all the people of Manit oba, and I don't have to repeat it again from the message from Howard Pawley, that they were going to help everyb­ ody in interest rate rel ief. They announced $23 mil lion of assistance would be available and I tel l you, Mr. Speaker, that as of the beginning of this month they have only comm itted, not spent, because they have spent much less, they have only comm itted $5 milli on in total interest rate rel ief on this program. Why? Because the criteria and the guidelines are so narrow that anybody who really needs help can't get help. Why would that be?

Business bankruptcies are up 100 75 percent and yet people still cannot qualify under the guidelines of their programs to help businesses. Farmers are up over 380 percent in bankruptcies; yet farmers who need it can't qual ify. We were told that today by the National Farmers' Union, your friends, the National Farmers' Un ion told us that, and yet your program has such narrow guidelines that nobody who needs it can really get the help. · The same thing holds true for homeowners. I want to tell you what the business and farm people have told me.

They said that you have to be so desper ate to get this kind of assistance, your business has to be in such bad shape that all this money you can get from the Govern ment represents is coffin money; some­ thing to give your business or farm a decent burial, that is all it amou nts to. It is absolutely a waste of taxpayers' dol lars. The bureaucracy that is created is eating up 'll ore of the money than the money that is being given out to the people who need it. That is what your program is all about. Mr .

Speaker, homeowners are in difficulty in this province and yet the guidelines have been structured so narrow that no middle income fam ilies can qual ify to get any assistance under the Interest Rate Rel ief Program. The fact of the matter is I have spoken to people from across the city who have calle d me to say, can you have any effect in helping us because we're faced with this problem. There are two of us, a married couple, both work ing and we've got a house, the mortgage has gone up substantially and we can't afford it, we're having difficulty making the payments.

With two of us work ing we exceed the level at which they will give us assistance. If one of us quit so that only one is work ing and we're below the level, the assistance they offer us isn't enough to make ends meet, so it's a Catch 22. That is what they're doing with their program. What about education? I've just got a minute or two, Mr. Speaker. Their most encouraging announcement this year was that they were carrying forward the pro­ gram that we had said before, an increase of 10 .4 percent on the Education Support Program. That is an announcement that we had made, that's a program we had put in pl ace.

That is the most encouragement that the Min ister of Education has made all year. other than tel ling some people who were protected under MGE A, who were going to be wiped out under a purge by her administration, tel ling them that they now can keep their jobs. The MGE A had a file of 13 grievances agai nst this Min ister for trying to get rid of all these peop le, so she had to come forward with an unprecedented an­ nouncement to say that she is not going to lay these people off. Well I've got news for her. -(lnterje ction)­ Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Or der ple ase.

The honou­ rable memb er's time has expired. The Honourable Member for Mun icipal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Mr . Deputy Speaker, I am certa inly pleased to have this opportunity to participate in the Debate on the Speech from the Throne. While the Speaker is not in his Chair, I would certainly want to express my pleasure that he has recuperated from his illness earl ier on in the year. I hope that his health will

continue to improve as time goes on and hope that this Chamber will not contribute to any diminishing of his health. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Speaker's respon­ sibil ity is an onerous one and I'm sure frustrating at times. and I suppose enough frustration can develop to make anyone ill. I want to congratula te you, Sir, as well, regarding your appointme nt as the Deputy Speaker. I want to thank the Memb er for Riel, the Member for Thompson, for so ably moving and seconding the Speech from the Throne. I would also like to congratulate my colleagues - I've done it privately, but I've never done it formal ly, Mr.

Deputy Speaker - to the Mem bers for Flin Flon, Gimli and Dauphin for their appointments to the Executive Council and als o the Memb er for Ki ldonan . which adds another woman to the Cabinet, which I think is good. I'm sure that these new members, additions to the Cabinet, that their contributions will certainly be felt throughout the province. Mr. Speaker, I was ple ased to hear the Leader of the Opp osition refer to me in his com ments on Page 43.

I'm ple ased because he devoted about a half - not a half page but at least half a column - in referring to me, and he mentioned questioning what we were doing on the Assessment Review, Mr. Speaker, and of course it was done in his usual fash ion, always done in a dero­ gatory manner. I am ple ased when we get criticized, I'm ple ased when mem bers opposite tend to criticize us because then I know we're on the right track. If you don't criticize, then I'm worried. I'm worried. Mr . Speaker, there have been some comp laints about the Assessment Review, and how it's been handled .

I would suggest to you that the problems in the assessment are not new. They have not developed overnight. In fact, any inequities that exist in the sys­ tem have developed over many years and probably from the time that properties were assessed for taxa­ tion. I would have expected, Mr . Speaker, that members opposite would be mature enough to realize and understand that the problems that have developed over these many many years will not be overcome overnight. They will not be resolved overn ight by sim­ pl istic solutions. Mr .

Speaker, we are reviewing what is happening in other jurisdictions as well as the studies that we have made here. I would point out to you, Mr . Speaker, that I believe it was approxima tely four or five years ago that the Province of British Columbia developed a new system for assessments in that province. Today, and I believe at the present time, they are now holding hear­ ings because of the problems that had been created by not studying full y what they were doing. Mr.

Speaker, it would be naive on the part of anyone, and naiv e to the extreme I would say, for some to believe and expect that if all the recommendations that have been presented to us were impl eme nted that all our problems would disappear. We would have to be very naive if that is expected. We have to move and try to address the inequities that have built into the system over the years. But we must do it in a way that we do not get into more problems and create more problems than we are trying to resolve. Tha t is the position that I have take n. We are going to study the impl ications -(I nterje ction)- Mr .

Speaker, I hear someone say, "For how long?" Wel l, 101 obviously, the honourable member hasn't read the recommendations because the recommendations also say that we should phase this in, get our system into pla ce by 19 87. That is what the recommendations are indicating. They also indicated that we should extend the freeze as well. -(I nterjection)- I would suggest to the honourable member that he look in the recom­ mendations and he'll find out, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr.

Speaker, personally I have attended a number of regional meetings of the Un ion of Man itoba Mu nicipalit ies, seven I believe, seven or eight in all, and I also attended, of course, the convention that was held recently. I have received a number of commenda­ tions or compl iments, if you will, on the way that I am proceeding. Because, Mr . Speaker, if the Opp osition here is not mature enough to understand the major problems in address ing this, the local people out there, the reeves, the co uncillo rs are sufficiently mature to understand that this is not an easy problem to resolve. It's a complex problem.

I have had a lot of consultation with groups out there during our southern tou r and, also, meeting different delegations and meeting different cou ncils and they are in agreement, Mr . Speaker. We have establis hed a good rapport with Municipal Govern­ ments out there. Yes, I've been very ple ased with the response and the encouragement that I'm receiving from Mu nicipal Governme nts out there. Mr . Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I don't want to spend too much time on the com ments made by the Leader of the Op position because it's really - I sometimes sympathize with the Leader of the Opp osition because he somehow has the knack to lose ground after he's made a speech rather than move forward. But at the risk of offending some of the people out there, out of this House, I want to wish the Leader of the Opp osition in his retirement, because I believe this will be his last major Throne Speech -(I nterjection)- despite the fact. Mr . Speaker, that -(l nterjection)- 1 wonder, Mr. Speaker, if I could have some order.

I'd like to continue. MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase I'm having some diffi­ culty in hearing the Honourable Min ister. The Honourable Minister of Municip al Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Despit e the fact, Mr . Speaker, that in the last 12 years that I have been here, any lime that the Leader of the Opp osition has referred to the Memb er for Ste. Rose, it has always been in a derogatory manner and a reflection on the people of Ste. Rose. Desp ite of that, I want to wish the Leader well and I hope that - you know.

I understand that he is leaving for his health and I hope as well that his health will impr ove and that it will not deteriorate. Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few remarks about the record of the Govern ment to date, in the last year, and I know that my col leagues MR. SPEAKER: Or der please, order ple ase. The Honour able Member for Arthur on a point of order. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Speaker, I feel somewhat reluc­ tant to do this, however. But I think the Rule of this House is, Mr . Speaker, that we do not have speeches that are read into the record and I would think the

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 member and his long-term record should refra in from doing it and I would refer you to Rule 29 of our Rule s. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the Honourable Member for Arthur for reminding the House of that fact as, indeed there is a requirement that there should not be a read­ ing of speeches in this Chamb er. I'm sure that all mem bers will be guided by that fact in the future. I wasn't aware that the Honourable Min ister was doing so and I hope that he would take those words of wisdom most seriously. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I have my notes marked down here, one line, just so that I don't get off track. Mr. Speaker. we have proven to be an activist Govern ment. That has been proven unequivocall y and we are willing to face the chal lenge s of the pres­ ent economic recess ion head-on with programs and polic ies which will benefit all Manit obans and, for those on the Opp osition benches who have short memories, Mr. Speaker, let me remind you of some of the accompl ishments that we have been able to achieve to this point in time.

It has been mentioned that we have provided the only comprehensive Inter­ est Rate Relie f Program, to my knowledge at least from any Government in Canada, the only one to my knowledge, assisting the farmers. not only in my area but all over the province, small business and home­ owners, hardest hit by high interest rates. There is now in pla ce a beef program, Mr . Speaker, and we heard criticism from the Member for Emerson yesterday who was complaining about no action on the part of the Government for agriculture. We put the lie to those stories, Mr .

Speaker, because we have a very comprehensiv e beef program for the producers of this province. one that I'm sure will be accepted and I'm sure that, in my own constituenc y - I wasn't there but I understand that when they had a meeting in Ste. Rose to explai n the beef program that there were 450 people, ranchers who turned out to find out about the program. Mr. Speaker, there will be, I'm sure, many ranchers taking advantage of this program and I believe that it will be successful and put some stability back into the beef industry which is very sorely needed.

The cost of inputs have increased and we hear a lot about the cause of recess ion. It's gone beyond a recess ion, Mr . Speaker. but we hear a lot of reasons. The big issue here in this Ho use is the 1. 5 levy. That is the big issue. This is the thing that has caused all the problems and it's two or three years ago, Mr. Speaker, that I said the problem started for western democra­ cies when we were no longer able to exploit cheap oil, cheap energy and high interest rates.

That is when the downslide started; that's when it started is when the high energy poli cies that group suppor ts - we heard the then Premier of the province say that the sooner we got to the world price for energy, the better. That is when the problem started. They also favour high interest rates. That is where the problem began for our western countries, our western democracies. It does not survive. You don't hear anybody talk about that. That's never caused a problem. High energy costs don't hurt farmers; that doesn't hurt them. That is the policy over there. You 102 know, that is where the problem was. Mr .

Speaker, speak ing about the 1. 5 percent levy for health and post-seco ndary education, I happened to hear a program on CBC radio as I was driving to the Legis lature the other day and they were interviewing a fel low by the name of Mr . Kinney and he was a former mayor of the Town of Russell, I understand. They were interviewing him and he was saying, we are form­ ing an Association of Western Man itoba to try and counteract the Op position in the House, counteract the Opp osition's demands upon the Government to remove the 1. 5 percent levy and we are afraid the Gove rnment will do it.

We're concerned if there is enough pressure coming on the Gove rnment that they may remove the 1.5 percent levy and then, we'll be in trouble. So I find it odd and I'm going to be watchi�g very closely. I heard the Member for Turtle Mountain, yes. He said that we should remove the 1. 5 percent levy . I wonder what the Mem ber for Roblin -R ussell is going to say and I'm wondering what the Mem ber for Swan River is going to say and I want to know what the Mem ber for Virden is going to say. Yes, because, Mr. Speaker - and the Member for Arthur, because those four seats are on the line.

They would destroy one-third of the province, of all the businesses on - or 25 percent or whatever. That's what they would do with their policies. Mr. Speaker, I don't intend to dwell on that because I think, you know, I don't know whether it is sour grapes but they're certainly no doubt very disappoi nted in the response that we have received, especially from those Conservative constituencies and the good rapport that we have had with the leaders of those com muni­ ties. We attended nine meetings with the leaders of the commun ities in those areas and we had community leaders.

Cham bers of Comm erce, Co-op people, Municipal Govermments, and business people and we had never less than 10 0 peopl e turn out at those meet­ ings. They were amazed that the Government would come out and talk to them, eye to eye, face to face. What are your concerns? Let's hear them. Let's talk it out. Yes. It has been a good exercise. We learned from them and they learned from us. That is the consu lta­ tive process which we believe in. Yes, there are many other accompl ishments, Mr. Speaker, in addition to the beef program. I diverged for a moment to talk about the levy.

It was mentioned before, the Cr itical Home Repai r has received tre­ mendous response. We are receiving requests for appl ications al most on a d&ily basis for senior citizens who wish to repair their homes. renovate and improve the housing stock in the Province of Manit oba. The spin-offs from this program alone will create jobs and create activity in the province. Homes in Man itoba that the Min ister just mentioned awhile ago - I don't want to dwell on that very long - $50 milli on expend iture on the construction of homes. That is a good thing.

Gove rnment capital investment has increased by 40 percent and health care construc­ tion has doubled. The Childr en's Dental Care Pro­ gram has been expanded and eyeglasses as well for seniors has been introduced. The Government has paid particula r attention to Northern Man itoba as has been expressed by the Member for Flin Flon. There has been emphasis on the

8 December, 1982 developme nt of fishing, forestry, reforestat ion - are priorities - and other local resources. Job creation and job training programs are a high priority with this Govern ment, and we mean business. We've avoided the increase in the sales tax, Mr . Speaker. There's always that possibility, and I know those people in Swan River. the business pe ople there. they're not far from Robl in, not far from Saskat­ chewan, the sales tax there is only 5 percent.

You never know. maybe come three years from now, fo ur years from now, the Government in Saskatchewan may decide they want to get re-elected, they may want to remove the sales tax in Saskatchewa n. I think it would be quite a dilemma for all those communities; it would be quite a dilemma for the Towns of Swan River, Robl in, Russel l, Mel ita and so on, Birtle - (Interjection)- the Member for Arthu r's town. So those commun ities would be virtually destroyed if that were to happen - be virtually destroyed.

I would argue that if we had gone with a sales tax instead of the levy that would have had a serious - in fact, we know that, because we have the statistics to prove it. We know it would have had a very serious effect on the business community in Manit oba. I don't want to dwell on that too long because the Mi nister of Finance is going to speak sometime. I want to dwell for a moment, Mr . Speaker, on the Main Street Program because as I said before when I opened my remarks, I'm pleased that there's some criticism because if they don't criticize then I know that I'm doing someth ing wrong.

So if there's no criti­ cism, then I know that someth ing is wrong, I'm not doing it right. But municipal councils and business peop le under this program are working together, and it's the first time, reall y, that business people and the municipali ty, the local governme nt, have had to get together and try and work co-operatixely to do some­ thing in their town. This is a very worthwhile exer­ cise, because what happened when the progr am came out was the difficulty of the business people, or vice-versa, the municipal ity - you know, we've never had to do something together before.

This is some­ thing new and they had some difficulty adjusting to that process. That's a good exercise, because those communities that are going to work closely together to revitalize their Main Streets are going to be a better working group for having gone through that exercise. I was ple ased to announce the first program at the UMM Convention. I want to di verge for a moment to tell you just about Er ickson a bit - the project. I sincerely believe that that will be a model for other com munities.

The level of co-operat ion that has been ach ieved between the municipal ity there and local business in Erickson is al most remarkable, what has happ ened in that com­ munity. Approximately 89 percent of the businesses in that town participated in this program, Mr. Speaker, and that is indeed remarkable. It has to be a model for other communi ties.

The municip ality in clu ded the replacement of si dew alks with in terlo cking brick, pro­ visions for access for the disabled, ornamental stree­ tl ightin g, lan dscaping and off-street parking and mini-parks right downtow n, street furniture and cross-paths as well. That is on the municipal side. The local govern ment is undertaking those projects, and 89 percent of the business people have entered into the program. We have never requested - we have never insisted that there be that high a participation, but that com­ munity, when we announced the final guidelines in August, just went to town.

They went to work, and it's not an easy task. I want to say to you, Mr. Speaker, that it's not an easy task to come up with a nice plan for the commun ity - some thing that will be exciting and some thing that will really vitalize their downtown area. The property owners will be extending interlock­ ing brick to their storefronts and providing access ramps as well. They're going to be providing access ramps as well, widen access doors for the handi­ capped, and I think, Mr. Speaker, that project was one of the first announced.

There will be, I'm sure, more being annou nced as time goes by, but the total amount of that project was 204,000, and of course, the province will be picking up 66 percent of the public property improvements and 33 percent of the private improvements. So, I think that this one program here adds up to a success story for Erickson and the way they've entered into this program and the way they have addressed it.

I think it's a credit to that community. -(l nterjection)­ You know, I would advise the Member for Morden that his community, although they had a hard time to get going in the beginning, the last I hear is that they're hot to trot on the Main Street Progra m. Mr. Speaker, the recent Speech from the Throne is further evidence of our intent to meet the challenge of these very very difficult time s. Creating emp loyment, of course, has been, and will continue to be, one of our Government's highest priorities. Sixty million dollars will be spent on special emp loy­ ment and housing measures.

More than 4,000 jobs will be created on projects designed to improve the strength of our economy and the qual ity of life in the Province of Man itoba. Cl ose to $4 milli on will go towards accele rated provincial capital works over the winter months. -(Int erjection)- When unemploy­ ment is at its highest, it's usually in the winter months. Mr. Speaker, the Affordable New Homes Program will be extended, and the Home Insulation Program will be improved and extended.

The Retrofit Program , the Federal-Pro vincial Arena and the Recreation Cen- . tre Retrofit Project will also provide needed jobs in a number of communities. 103 To demonstrate our Government's comm itment to Manit oba products, a Buy Man itoba Program will be introduced to support the growth of rural and ur ban firms. As is evident in the thrust of th e Speech from the Throne, our Gove rnment is not going to foll ow the path of the pre vious ad min istra tion, in crea sing high­ way spending and at the same time slash ing important social programs. I am pleased with our performance over the past year, Mr .

Speaker, and it adds up to a success story. MR. SPEAKER: Or der ple ase. The honou rable member's time has expired. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNES S: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too wou ld like to offer my congratulations, particularly for the job and your efforts you accompl ished last Ses­ sion when there were great presssu res upon you. I

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 ----- ---- ··------------ wish you well in your continuing role. I'll not offer congratulations to all the new members opposite who have achieved new positions; not that I don't want to. but my time is short. and I'll wait to see how you do for a year. After that time, if you've done a good job. then I'll offer it to you. Mr. Speaker.

I don't know if 40 minutes can do justice to what we've heard over the last week regard­ ing the Throne Speech, firstly; and secondly, of course, the document that was read by the Min ister of Finance yesterday regarding the state of the economy in this province First of all. I'd like to comment upon the Throne Speech, and my first reactions remind me of a defini­ tion that I heard about tal king. Talking, of course, is defined in some quarters, at least, as words, words, words, the greatest substitute for action.

And I can tell you the words were coming at such a feverish pitch the day of the Throne Speech that I, in all confidence, and I would have to say this to my constituents, that I sort of turned off - I couldn't listen to them. I took the Speech home, however, during the weekend and I read it. and I must conclude that in my view, there was little of substance and there was a whole pack of words.

My Leader has drawn attention, I believe, to the number of positive aspects that were mentioned in that Speech, a few that were continuations of policies that had been developed previously by mem bers of the previous Governme nt.

Ju st to list a few of those, of course, were the mentions of the Hazardous and Spe­ cial Waste Mana gement Program, the advent of Sur­ face Rights Legislation, the continuing royalty and tax incentives to apply to our oil industry and the support­ ing of the local recreat ion districts - that's one that I can find favour with - and the attempt to mana ge surface runoff and underground suppl ies, and I think the Min ister the other day made further reference to that. These, I suppose, are all fine in concept, although I wonder what valu e they'll have to the 52,000 unem­ ployed.

Although, again. if they weren't in pla ce, if they were to be removed and not continued, I suppose the roll would increase. In my view the rest of that spee ch, the Throne Speec h, can be categorized into two parts: namely, misunderstandings and misconceptions, inconsis­ tencies; and the second

part is words - six pages of words, which really, I think, have no value to the citi­ zens of Manitoba. First of all, I would like to spend a fair amount of time on what I believe are the inconsistencies and the mis­ understandings. I have to dwell on the words "the recess ion" and "the recession belief" that seems to come constantly from the memb_ers. It is now, not only what is in existence, but it seems to be the cause for what is in existence and everything is so neatly blame d on the recession.

I counted the times it was mentioned in his Speech and I thought the writer did well in keeping it down to three or four. Of course, I saw the word "depress ion" starting to sneak in also into this Speech and I'm wondering if the mem bers opposite are finally prepared to use that term inology. because I can tell you that I am. I am prepared to begin to use it because I think it's time to face up to it. time to try and put some order back into what we have here, an attempt to cut some spend ing, 104 and I'll get into that a little later.

So, in my view, we should call it what it is and put aside some of the garbage statements. I didn't bring it down, but this was written up in the Winnipeg Sun here two weeks ago where the First Minis ter, the Prem ier of this province, went out to Vancouver and said that in fact it was all the fault of the new administration in the United States two years ago. It was the fault of those people and I am wonder­ ing when that is going to be put to rest, because I think it's doing a terrible terrible injustice to people who are trying to grapple with really what is our present state and how has it come into being.

So we blame it all on the Chicago boys - I think that was the reference - and the Reaganom ics.

No mention whatsoever, and you never heart h is. of the fact that our manufacturing industry has :.iecome noncompetitive in the world marketplace; that we have burgeoning debts building up in all our govern­ ment and quasi-government areas; that economic growth was slowing down long before the incom ing of Pres ident Reagan; that indeed Cana dian industrial productivity, the increase in our productivity was fal­ ling far below the level of many industrial ized nations; but that in spite of all the problems that existed - and they don't mention it - in spite of all the problems that existed and they will continue to exist, that in my view and I think they share the view - at least I hope they do - that Canada with some good leader ship, I think, probably had the best opportunity of any nation in this western world to have escaped the savage results of what we have now.

If there was any nation that could have done it, I believe we could have, but you don't hear that. You never hear that in the criticism. No, it's strictly because of someth ing that was done two years ago by ways of an ele ction in the United States. So, when I hear the appeals from their members who say let's work together, let's attempt to fight this war together, and I've heard this now from two of their speakers - I heard it from the Member for Thom pson and also from the Member for St.

James - I say, well, how can we work together when we can't even agree as to what the problem is that brought us to this pres­ ent state. The next inconsistency, Mr. Speaker, that I would like to speak about was and I'll quote - it's on the first page and it says - "W hile the ruinous pol icy of tight money and high interest rates is now descredited " and it goes on to say something, but that was the pream ble to a sentence. I would like to spend a moment on that if I could, Sir.

First of all, I will say that I agree tight money and high rates of interest hurt, they hurt badly, there's no argument; so does pullin g a tooth, it hurts badly, too, but let's look at the adjective. The adjective was "ruinous." What does it mean? Well, I take it then that they would prefer the system of easy money and low interest rates. Obviously that's what they endorse. Is that what you believe in? Because if you do, obviously then you like speculation. You loved it. You had to because that's what comes with it. You loved speculation in commodities and real estate values and land. You've loved it.

You had to. You loved the concept of consuming first and paying later. Con­ suming first and paying later; obviously you liked that, because that's what comes with easy money and low interest rates. People - all aspects of our society -

Wednesday, 8 December, 1982 people. businesses and governments. but what's the offshoot of it? Wel l, we all know what the offshoot of easy money is and easy credit. It's inflation. And, of course, how many times did you see that word menti­ oned in here? It's not mentioned once because that is not a problem. It's not mentioned once; it's not a prob­ lem even though it's the natural result or outcome of easy money and easy credit. It has happened for hundreds of years. So which side do you want? Which type of pol icy do you want? Or do you believe in the money system at all? I wonder. So, Mr .

Speaker, I believe inflation to be the most dreaded economic disease that there is and we are paying the price today because of some of the things that hap pened previously. If I could digress for a mome nt - somebody the other day asked me, well, what's behind this dollar because I believe that the whole money system - what's behind this dol lar ? And I said, well, not a heck of a lot. I guess there used to be gold, but there is gold no longer. So what's behind it today? And do you know what's behind it? There is only one thing and it's confidence.

That's the only thing behind that dollar and our eco­ nomic system is only held up by that. In spite of its warts and its pimples and all the things that seem to be unaccepta ble to the people opposite, the only thing that hold s up our system today is confidence in the doll ar. Is it a sol id foundation? Wel l, I don't think it is. What erodes it more quickly than anything? Well, I believe it's inflation. I guess what the mem bers oppo­ site aga in don't understand. What comes ultimately after inflation?

Unemplo yment, and that's where they come on; that's when they jump onto it and say, well, that's the cost, infla tion and unemp loyment. One ultimately leads to the other. Well, Mr . Speaker, I don't know if I've made my point or if again I am raining down upon deaf ears, but I think the point I am trying to say is that inflation is follo wed by contraction and contraction means unemp loyment. It's inevitable. It's happened that way for generations and it will happen that way for many years to come.

Who is hurt most during these times of inflation when interest rates are low and money is easy, those periods lead ing into recess ion? And, of course. the people here, they attack us for having wanted the opposite. So, I take it that they wanted then easy money and low interest. So who is hurt the most? Wel l, I'll tel l you who isn't hurt. First of all, it