Manitoba Hansard — 5 December 1989 (Sitting 84, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-84

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANI TOBA Tuesday, December 5, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYE RS ROUTI NE PROC EE DINGS MINI STERIA L STA TEMENTS Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr. Speak er, in making this statement to the House I want to acknowledge and thank the co-operation of my two critics, the MLA for Kildonan, the Liberal Health Critic (Mr. Cheema), and the MLA for Thompson, the New Democratic Party Health Critic (Mr. Ashton), in not questioning the line of Estima tes wherein this proposal was contained so that St.

Bonif ace could have their annou ncement in a very formal and very beneficial fashion. Mr. Speaker, today is an occasion of real pride for me. I am proud as a Manitoban as well as the Minister of Health to be able to annou nce in the House today the designation of the oncology unit at the St. Boniface General Hospital as a World Health Organization collaborating centre for quality of life in cancer care. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, this is the first time the World Health Organi zation has designa ted a collaborating centre in Canada for cancer research.

I think it is important to recognize the signif icance of this announcement as it pertains to health care del ive ry, not merely based on the technolo gical capability of treatment but rather on how the patient is benefited in terms of his or her quality of life during that treatment regime for can cer. We are not here today as a result of pure chance or circumstance. This is an outcome of ded icated research efforts by Dr. Schipper and his colleagues at St.

Bon iface, who have been recognized internationally as contributing to the health, comfort and dignity of people undergoing treatment for cancer all over the world. Research in Manitoba is very much a partnership in health involving support funding from the provincial Government. For this project our Government has commit ted to provide $290,000 per year for the next four years to assist this ongoing research project.

Funding which can attract world class researchers to Manitoba often provides impr oved clinical services to patients, since these profes sionals are often both researchers as well as practising physicians. This greatly enhances the opportunities for Manitobans to access qual ity health care. * (13 35) The in tense biological approach to the treatment of cancer in its many forms has yielded some impr essive 3487 results in terms of inc reasing the life expectancy of many sufferers from this dreaded dis ease. That work must continue, Mr. Speaker.

What impr esses me about the work that is being recognized here today is that it focuses on the human aspect of treatment, addressing the question on what this treatment will do to the whole life of this patient, as well as to the affected organs and cells of his or her body. The work of this collaborative centre will develop ways of addressing that question that can be sh ared worldwide through links with the World Health Organization and the other Quality of Life Centre in Amsterdam.

I am especially pleased to note the emphasis the designation of this centre places on links with the Third World, so that cancer treatment in dev eloping countries can have the benefit not only of biological advances but to more effective and humane use of health care resources. This project in its research efforts demonst rates the excellence of medical research in Ma nitoba , an excellence we do not often recognize adequ ately, but here today this excellence of research in Manitoba is being recognized by the World Health Organization in designating the collaberative centre at St. Boniface.

This is a partnership of research applied to quality of patient care. This is a recognition of excellence in Manitoba and that we truly have a world-class centre of excellence for cancer research in this province. This is ind eed a partnership, not only for Manitobans, but for the people around the world who suffer from cancer . Mr. Speaker, this is a proud day for Ma nitobans and those involved in this research project at St. Boniface. Thank you very much. Mr . Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr.

Speaker, we on this side of the House are extremely pleased with this announ cement and the Minis ter has already indic ated that we gave him leave that we will not be raising that issue in Estimates. That was one of the priorities and we did it. Also, we thank the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard) for inviting me, but unfortuna tely, because of the crisis at Seven Oaks Hospital I was not able to attend that function. Mr.

Speaker, this is a major step for cancer treatment in Manitoba and certainly with the recognition by the World Health Organization it will help not only patients in Manitoba, but all over the world. Definitely the Minis ter is moving in the right direction. We will ask him, rather request him, not to develop a confronta tional attitude with the professional caregivers who are a very impo rtant aspect of this particular centre. We will continue to encourage the Min ister to devote more time to have a non-confrontational attitude so that programs like this can be valuable in the long run. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I would like to stand and congratulate the Mi nister of Health. Inde ed it is a proud day for Manitobans and the announ cement on cancer treatment for Manitobans and the recognition of the World Health Organization is an excellent recognition of the staff and the profess ionals at the St. Boniface Hospital. I have very direct knowledge of the St. Boniface Hospital. My mother had cancer and was at that hospital, and the profes sionalism and the care and dignity are worthy of note here in the statement.

I would like to congratulate the Mini ster of Health (Mr. Orchard), because the doctors and staff there should be recognized worldwide for the research and humane and dig nified treatment of all patients. Thank you. INTRODUCTION OF GUE STS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the Speaker's gallery where we have with us this afternoon the Consul General of Belgium, Mr. Robert Devries, and also the Hono urary Consul General, Dr. Paul Deprez. On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Also with us this afternoon seated in the public gallery, we have from the General Wolfe School twenty-five Grade 9 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Lomas. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUES TION PERIOD Manito ba Medic al Associ ation Co llectiv e Ag reem ent Negoti ation s Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , yesterday the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) said in this House that he did not believe in a confrontational style.

It got quite a laugh in this particular aud ience, because we know that inde ed he does believe in confrontational style. He walked out of this House to further continue that type of style, when in reference to the doctors he uses words like lying. * (13 40) Mr. Speaker, the concerns raised by the medical profession have been raised by the president of the Manitoba medical profession, someone who knows more about that profess ion than does the Minis ter.

The Mi nister's behaviour clearly ind icates that, contrary to what he says in this House, he is trying to get his own way by dis crediting the entire medical profess ion. How can this Min ister tell us that he is working in a co-operative fashion with the Manitoba Medical Association when his attitude and his vocabulary is nothing other than confrontational? Hon. Donald Orchard (Mi nister of Health): Mr. Speaker , my honourable friend, the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr s.

Carstairs), must understand tha t the president of the MMA commun icated to all of the membership last week that Government's offer involved quotas set on individual doctors and the prospect of turning patients away because of Gove rnment's proposal to the MMA. That was an absolutely false statement for the profes sional, Dr. Bartlett, to make to the membership. That is not a correct asses sment, has not been and never was. Dr. Bartlett should not have made that communication incorrectly to the membership.

I stand by the quotations in the Winnip eg Free Press that accurately portray my dismay at that com plete misin terpretation of Government's offer to the MMA. Manito ba Medic al Ass o ciation Co llectiv e Ag reement Negoti ation s Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): The Manitoba Medical Associa tion believes that capping will have the direct result of cutting services to patients. An Honourable Member: There is no capping. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, can the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), in light of the statement that he just made in the House, tell the House if he is now prepared to take the position that they placed before the Manitoba Medical Association with a take-it-or-leave-it style and say there will not be any 2 percent capping on fees in the Province of Manitoba, and that there will be no cutbacks to doctors, and that their 3 percent income will take place regardless of the fee in creases? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): It is really interesting to see the Leader of the Li beral Party doing as she always does, and that is to negotiate in this House on behalf of special inter est groups throughout the province. Everyt ime anybody is interested in getting more money from the Government of Manitoba she is on their side, she has already signed the cheque, she just invites them to fill in the numb ers. That is the whole process she has of accountability and respon sibili ty to the taxpayer. Nobody in her Party speaks for the taxpayer of this province, sheer irresponsibil ity.

That is all we are doing, coming to this House day after day after day negotiating on behalf of people whose incomes are the highest of any group in society. That is exactly her position. Mr. Speaker, the offer that was made to them was, first, an in crease in the fee

schedule to every single doctor in this province, and second, an incr ease in the fund that is going to im prove the fees individual doctors get, in most of the disciplines I might say. Probably two-thirds of the disciplin es will access that fund which has been incr eased by 450 percent over what it was in the previous three years. All doctors will be getting an in crease benefit. In return for that, we are asking doctors to take a respon sibil ity above 2 percent growth in the usage o1 3488

Tuesday , December 5, 1989 the system. Remember that we do not have a great incr ease in population in this province. That incr ease in usage -(interjection)- Well, Mr. Speaker, it is no different than it was under the New Democrats. Under those circumstances we are asking them to take some responsibility with us in ensuring that the growth in the system is reaso nabl e and tha t they have some responsibility to control that growth. Under all those circums tances we are dealing fairly, honestly, and above board with them, and it is only the Leader of the Liberal Party- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please.

Medical Prof ession Binding Arbit ration Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): It is no wonder it is a confrontational style. They do not know what binding arbitration means in this Government. Binding arbitration is not writing cheques, 1 binding arbitration is allowing an arbitrator to decide. * (1 345) Mr. Speaker, can the Minis ter of Education (Mr. Derkach) tell this House today if he supports binding arbitration for the teachers of this province who in 1987 cost the taxpayers some $475 million?

Why has he been unable to convince his colleagues that binding arbitration might work for physicians when that figure is considerably less? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr . Speaker: Order, please; order please. The Honourable Min ister of Health. Hon. Donald Orchard (Mi nister of He alth): Mr. Speak er, I realize my honourable friend the Liberal Leader may not always have full facts and information before her when she poses questions. That is a difficulty that only as Leader in her caucus can come to grips with. Mr.

Speaker, what we have offered to the MM A is a reason able offer in terms of com pensat ion to individual physicians. It is a reasonable proposal in terms of coming to grips with underpaid physician groups for which from time to time my honourable friends opposite say, why can we not recruit and retain given specialists to Manitoba? There is a significant fund to answer to that, and we have provided for a, fully paid by the taxpayers, reasonable incr ease in the amount of billings by physicians. The offer is reasonable to the physicians, responsible to the taxpayers, and guarantees patient care.

Teaching Profession Binding Arb it ration Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, but I have a question to the Min ister of Education (Mr. Derkach). Is the Min ister of Education now prepared to abandon binding arbitration for the 3489 teaching profession, and is he now prepared to put a 2 percent cap on the education of our children as well? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Min ister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, that is a silly question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Derkach: As you see, the Memb ers of the Li beral Party have just acknowledged that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) has asked a silly question. There is no way that I am in a position to abandon binding arbitration at the level of negotiations with schools and teachers' associations because that kind of negotiation goes on between teachers' associations and local school boards. Salaries are the respo nsibi lity of local school boards and I do not intend to inter fere at this point in time. Mini ste r of Health Binding Arbit ration Position Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the teachers of this province in 1987 received salaries of $475 million. Payments to doctors were $222 million last year. The actual mone y they received in salaries was far less than this. Can the Min ister of Health tell us why he is a Member- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Leader of the official Opposition. Mrs. Carstairs: Can the Min ister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) tell this House why he is a Member of a caucus and a Government that supports binding arbitration to one sector dealing with an essential service but will not support binding arbitration for another sector dealing with an essential service? Hon. Donald Orchard (Mi nister of Health): Mr. Speaker , again my honourable friend the Liberal Leader is very confused in understan ding the issue. The incr ease in billings by physicians has absolutely no correlation to the teaching profession.

She totally does not understand the nature of the offer that Government has made to the MMA, involving a basic increase, which we believe is reasonable at 3 percent per year, and second, a gu aranteed services fund of $24 million to enable Government to participate in recruitment and retention of needed spec ialis ts and of general practioners to Mani toba and a provision for an incr eased amount of billing by physicians of 2 percent regardless of what happens to the population growth in Manitoba. * (13 50) Mr.

Speaker, we believe that is a reasoned proposal to the physicians of this province that if properly commun icated by the present would be accepted by those physicians- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Leader of the official Opposition.

Tuesday , December 5, 1989 Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, this confrontational style of this Min ister has resulted in a major deadlock between the Department of Health and the Manitoba Medical Association. We have to get back to some reasoned form of bargaining and negotiation. In Opposition this same Mini ster was very critical of the Go vernment when they backed out of binding arbitration. When he was critical of them for backing out of it, why is he unwilling to accept it? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend fails to recognize that it is four months before the end of the current contract and we are negotiating in good faith with the MM A, as I commit ted to do some eight months ago. Mr. Speaker, the previous Government did have a binding arbitration agreement. They broke it. I was critical of breaking a deal with the MM A regarding binding arbitration.

We have no such agreement with the MMA and we have indica ted clearly since the 1988 election that we believe this Government will approach negotiations with the MM A and its member physicians in a reasonable fashion providing an adequate incr ease in compensation and an assurance of health care to Ma nitobans. Co nawapa Proje c t Onta rio Hydro Sale Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I think many Manitobans and perhaps many people in this Chamber will be somewha t surprised that the First Minis ter (Mr. Filmon) of the Min ister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Neufeld) is not getting up today to announce that in fact there is a power sale between Manitoba Hydro and Ontario Hydro, which is going to commence the construction of Conawapa. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Min ister. I realize that the First Min ister is reluctant in this regard because it is a compl ete reversal of Tory policy when it comes to the export of energy . He is reluctant because it is now a fait accompli that they have adopted New Democratic Party policy when it comes to Hydro dev elopment. Mr. Speaker, will the First Mini ster (Mr.

Filmon) indic ate today to the people of Manitoba when the agreement will be formally signed with Ontario Hydro and what the details of that sale are so that Manitobans can celebrate this change of policy on the part of the Tories? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I can understand somebody from Toronto taking the position that this Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) is taking. Of course this story has been in I would say virtually every Winnip eg news media for a number of weeks now. In fact, I saw on page 1 of the Free Press the chairman of Manitoba Hydro quoted giving information about it.

I heard the chairman of Manitoba Hydro on the Peter Warren Action Line talking about it. * (1 355) Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is now that the Globe and Mail has got a hold of it, it is a story. Is that the issue, finally? I know that the Member for Flin Flon is very excited about this prospect because the fact is that this is good news for Manitoba. There is no question about it. Mr. Speak er, when you are talking about the investment of over $5.5 billion in this province that is good news for Manitoba. That is a major, major project.

I can tell him that we, in negotiating an agreement for the sale of electricity, would not do what his NOP Government did. That was, you may recall, that when they negotiated the sale they negotiated it based on 80 percent of the cost of producing the electricity in somebody else's jurisdic tion-no regard to our costs of producing it here. Mr. Spea ker, when they negotia ted that sale, for a number of years of that sale Manitobans would be paying more than they would otherwise if the sale had not- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Memb er for Flin Flon. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Speaker, I think Manitobans will accept that rather convoluted acknowledgment that the NOP policy on the export of power was the right one. Hydro Develop ment Futu r e Benefit s Mr . Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): The Mi ni ster has ackn owledged that Manitoba Hydro and the Province of Manitoba can export power and create wealth for Manitobans, which is what we have been saying for more than a decade. Mr. Speaker, will the First Min ister now commit to using the Manitoba Energy Foundation, the Manitoba heritage fund, in effect , to develop a fund for the use of Manitobans in generations to come?

Will he commit to using tha t fund for the benefit of Manitobans today? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, when the New Democrats entered into an agreement to construct Lime stone and to sell the energy to the Unit ed States, the primary benefit for them was the creation of construction jobs. For us, the prim ary benefit of this sale is that Manitobans will pay lower rates for electricity than they would have without the sale, lower rates for Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker, when they entered into this agreement they started the construction of Limestone so tha t it would be completed two years before they needed it to fulfill the terms of the sale, two years. This agreement, the construction of Conawapa, will coincide with the commencement of the sale so that we will be getting revenues the minute that the power is available to be sold to offset the costs of that construction, not like them, for two years we are paying the interest on a huge investment with no sale- Mr . Speaker: Order, please; ord er, please. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Speaker, the First Mi nister is a little defensive and that is because the terms for negotiating this sale were established by the previous Government and the profit on the Northern States Power is estimated to be $1. 7 billion by the National Energy Board. 3490

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 Co naw apa Proj ect Employment Oppo rtuniti es Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): My further question on this very impo rtant topic is the question of how this Government intends to ensure that Manitoba business, that Manitoba people, that Northerners, the Natives, benefit from this project. My question to the Acting Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro, or the First Mi nis ter (Mr.

Filmon) is, will this Mini ster now, immedia tely set up a northern working group to ensure that Northerners are involved and establish a buy Manitoba group to make sure that Manitoba businesses, Manitoba suppliers, Manitoba service providers, have first access, have immedia te access to information that they need to make sure that they can be involved in this project from Day One? Will he set up those two groups today? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, one of the things that we will assure Manitobans is that we will learn from the mistakes that were made by the previous NOP Government.

We know that although they made a good attempt at involving Northerners and Natives, they did not do enough. It was not as successful as it should have been. We will im prove upon that; we will impr ove upon their training in itiatives; we will impr ove upon the access to work for Northerners and Native Manitobans; we will im prove upon the access to contracts for busin esses and construction firms in Manitoba. We will do everything we can to ensure that Manitobans derive more benefits out of the construction of Conawapa and the transmission line than accrued as a result of their construction of Limestone.

Environ ment a l Working Gro up Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker , those assurances would mean something if the Manitoba Hydro had not already signed a collect ive agreement that did not make any impr ovements for Northerners; it would mean something if the Limestone Training and Emplo yment Agency had not been disma ntled in northern Manitoba; it would mean some thing if this Government understood at all what is expected in terms of Northerners and their employment. * (1 400) Mr.

Speaker, my further question to the Min ister, given he has not responded to my request to set up a task force on the employment of Northerners and on business, will the First Min ister (Mr.

Filmon) un dertake today to establish a working group on the environment to do two very specific things, No. 1, to make sure that environmental concerns are addressed, both in terms of the project itself, but also, and perhaps more impo rtantly on the bi-pole line; and No. 2, will he make sure that any question of compensation with respect to this project is dealt with in consultation with the bands and communi ties affected and is done before the project commences? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , I cannot believe the hypocrisy of this Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie).

Limestone was done without an environme ntal assessment and review. The NOP specifically exempted Li mestone from having a comp lete environ mental assessment and review. One thing I will assure the people of Manitoba, Conawapa will have a compl ete environmental assessment, with public hearings, and so will the transmission facility that goes along with it, not like the NOP who excluded and exempted Limestone from the environmental assessment process. Co alition of Servi ce Provi ders Working Gro up Esta blis hment Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr.

Speaker , the saga of the inability of these Min isters to negotiate with communi ty groups continues from the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and on to the Min ister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson). The residential Coalition of Service Providers who represent group homes for the mentally hand icapped had a meeting with the Mini ster recent ly. They met because of their grave concerns about the recommendation of the Wiens Report which have not been addressed.

In that meeting the Min ister refused to establish a working comm ittee which would review the staff turno ver, the in consistencies in staff quality and the staff salaries in group homes. My question to the Minis ter of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) is this: why has this Mi nis ter refused to establish such a working group? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Mi nister of Family Services): When I met with the group I ind icated to them they could follow the same program under which they are working now. They work with my staff, they bring their conc erns, they sit down together and make recommendations to the staff.

In essence, they have that opportunity now. Gro up Homes Mini ster's Plans Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): The Minis ter also told them that she would not meet with the group for another four or five months which will be well into the new fiscal year. The Minis ter did tell this group that she had a plan and when asked to share that plan she said, I cannot, it is in my head. My question to the Min ister is this: is she prepared to trans fer that plan from her head, put it on paper, and share it with the residential Coalition of Service Providers and this House? Hon.

Charlo tte Oleson (Min ister of Family Services): I can ind icate to the Member that these plans are taking place in the department and they will be announ ced in next year's budget. Co alition of Servi ce Provi ders Working Gro up Esta blis hment Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): I have a supplementary question to the Min ister. The Minis ter has seen fit to establish 3491

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 working groups in a number of areas. Can the Minister indicate to us why she is discriminating against the group who represent the mentally handicapped, and why she will not establish a working group as she has done with the day care community? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): That same Member has been known to criticize task forces and working groups that we have set up. I do not see what she has to complain about.

I indicated to the Member in my previous answer to her first question that in essence this group has all the access to my department and has input to decisions that are made. Minister of Health Apology Request Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and it is in regard to the growing crisis in the health care system. This last week and a half , Mr. Speaker , the Minister has been burning his bridges, not only with health care workers , not only with doctors, but I would say with the entire population of Manitoba.

This was most obvious by his comments today in which he said that people who expressed concerns about his plans to cap billings in th is province are liars. If a Member of this Legislature had made that statement in this House he or she would be asked to withdraw that statement or would face ejection . What I would like to ask the Minister now is, will the Minister withdraw that statement categorically and also apologize, not only to the doctors, but to the many other people who are concerned about the Minister and this Government's action in terms of health care? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, when the president of the MMA withdraws this statement contained in a letter to his membership wherein, I quote, Dr. Bartlett says, unquestionably this means that doctors will have to police their patients by determin ing whether or not the system can afford the health services that are required . I suppose this means that we will have to tell our patients that they are out of luck on some days when we have seen our quota of patients . This is a frightening way to deliver health care to the people in need and I predict that some Manitobans will pay a terrible price in needless suffering if Mr.

Filmon's Cabinet gets its way. Mr. Speaker, when Dr. Bartlett withdraws that erroneous statement to his membership by letter properly explaining the offer that we have on the table, I will gladly withdraw the quotation accurately made in the Free Press by myself. Medical Profession Binding Arbitration Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, since we are dealing with what the truth is I would like to ask the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) , what is the position of the First Minister?

Is it the position he took on March 16, 1988, when he said that we will put all issues on the table including arbitration and letters to the MMA , or is it what he said last week when he said that they will not put arbitration on the table? What is the position of the Government? The Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) himself at one time yesterday said there were no negotiations, then about five minutes later said there were negotiations . Finally and most importantly, Mr.

Speaker, when was the Minister telling the truth, when at the First Ministers ' Conference he said that we had a rosy economy in Manitoba, we had no problems economically , or what he told the doctors last week when he said the economy is going down the drain? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please ; order, please . The Honourable First Minister. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I think I can understand the Member for Thompson 's (M r. Ashton) concern for doctors . He may need one soon with his blood pressure rising .- (interjection)- No, he is concerned for doctors .

That is what the issue is and he is concerned with the income of doctors in specific . That is the issue, because at no time , at no time- - (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order . The Honourable First Minister . Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, as a former president of MGEA , the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) knows about bargaining stupid. He is an expert on it . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Filmon: Go ahead, find something . Find something to talk about. Mr. Speaker: Order . Order, please . It appears the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affai rs (Mr.

Connery) and the Honourable Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) are attempting to answer this ques tion . I have recognized the Honourable First Minister . The Honou rable First Minister, to answer the quest ion. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I can tell the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), who is interested in the incomes of the doctors, the most well-paid people in our society, who is out here bargaining on their behalf , that we will not allow patients to be turned away.

We will not allow patients to suffer in the system with the commitment we have made to one of the largest capital works programs ever in our history, with the commitments we have made in two straight budgets to increasing spending in health care by almost double the rate of inflation. We are concerned for the patients and the citizens of Manitoba, and they will get the finest quality of health care that this Government and this province can afford . Mr. Ashton: My concern is for the patients and the future of Medicare in this province. * (1410) 3492

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 Mini ster of Health Speech Tabling Req uest Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My final question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is as follows: why, since the First Min ister, the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Mann ess), and the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard) debated last week with the MMA; why, given the fact that he has now ind icated the truth in this province, the economy is going down the tubes-that is what he said. He said that revenues were going down, that the economy is worsening. That is what was said to the MMA at the meeting last week. I would like to ask the First Mi nis ter (Mr.

Filmon), first of all will he have the Minis ter of Health table that speech, some thing he would not do when he met with the doctors? More impo rtantly than that, will he clarify exactly what next is going to be on the chopping block as we go into a wors ening economic situation under the Tories? What else- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable First Minis ter. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): What we did was quote from a monthly magazine of the Canadian Medical Association that ind icated that nationally right across the board they were expecting trans fer payments to go down from the federal Government and that is in their own news organ, Mr. Speaker .

That is exactly the information that they ought to know better than anyone else because their own Canadian Medical Association published the figures and published the expectations and their projections which was the basis upon which we were saying, you ought to know what the situation is, because your own Canadian Medical Association has told you the facts and the figures about revenues country-wide nationally going down. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Thompson, on a point of order. Mr. Ashton: My apologies due to the heckling back and forth, I did not hear the answer to my question.

Did the Mini ster indic ate he would table the speech given by the Mi nister of Health? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. Sev en Oaks Hospit a l Emergenc y Servi ces Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker , a week ago, we raised the issue of emergency care at Seven Oaks Hospital. Unfortun ately, there are 10 patients hooked to IVs in the hallways waiting for beds.

Can the Min ister of Health tell us why he has not taken any action for the last 18 months to justify the needs of those patients who are seriously ill waiting with IVs hooked up? They are waiting in the hallways. Can the Minister tell us why he has not taken action so far? 3493 Hon. Donald Orchard (Mi nister of Healt h): Mr. Speak er, I naturally cannot answer tha t question because I have in deed taken action and thi s Government has indeed taken action. Mr. Speaker, two successive capital budgets will see the availability of 286 new personal care home beds.

The Health Advisory Network study will see the commissioning of 88 beds currently in the system at Deer Lodge. Mr. Speaker, we have a reasoned and comprehen sive approach to the delivery of health care in this province. We are not narrowly meeting the agendas of individual lobby groups, professional groups, admin istrators or hospitals or institutions in resolving the problems. We are dealing with the system in an equitable basis through the Capital Program, through incr eased funding, through new program ming, through enha ncement of programming for recruitment of physicians, ambula nce funding, and on and on.

Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the agenda that this Government has been on with the results of better quality- Mr. Speaker: Order. Health Care Emergen cy Servi ces Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, if their policy is working, why are there patients waiting at Concordia Hospital, Mis ericordia Hospital, why are they waiting at Seven Oaks Hospital? Mr. Speaker, last week two male patients were adm itted to the gynecology ward at the Health Sciences Centre. Mr. Speaker, this is the first time this has ever happened.

Can the Min ister of Health explain to us why such unfortunate circumstances are being offered to the patients of Manitoba, so that they have to be adm itted at the gynecological ward. Maybe the Premier would like to answer this question. Hon. Donald Orchard (Mi nister of Health): Mr. Speaker, during the debate of Estima tes in which this issue was not discussed and during the Manitoba Health Services Commission debate, and we debated more than the half hour we did last year, this issue was not brought up.

I ind icated to my honourable friend and I than ked him for being responsible in that when I was the Health Critic. The number of panelled patients that were in the wards of hospitals in Winnip eg exceeded 450 patients four years ago and three years ago when I was critic. At that time, I could have taken television cameras and raised the issue daily in the Question Period but I chose not to because the problem continues despite the fact that there are only 360 panelled patients in the hospitals.

The situation is definitely improving and will continue to im prove as personal care home beds are built and put into service and as decisions are made.

Tuesday , December 5, 1989 Goo ds an d Servi ces Tax Imp act Health Care Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, the effect of GST will not only incr ease the cost of operating hospitals and nursing homes but will also incr ease the cost of homemakers, who are very essential for the seniors services. Can the Min ister of Health tell this House what studies he has comm issioned in Manitoba to make sure that the effect of GST will not be a cost to health care in Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Min ister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, the whole issue of the GST and its im pact on the health care system is one in which the und erstanding we have to date of the impl ementation of the GST is that it will have no application to the health care programs of the provinces. Therefore, the impact will not be there. There are notable except ions, and I am informed the y are except ions by om ission rather than commission, in that the psychologists, in charging fees, are now under present provision sub ject to the GST .

In discussions with the former federal Min ister of Health he indi cated that is an error of omission rather than commission, and an appropriate exemption will be put in place for those profes sional psychologists. Housing Market Governm ent Initiativ es Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): My question is to the Mi nister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme). Every housing related economic ind icator for Manitoba for the present year has shown that Manitoba is lagging far behind most of the other provinces in developing a strong housing market. Housing starts are among the lowest in the countr y. Vacancy rates are up.

Housing resale values are falling. Just yesterday we learned that housing starts in urban centres in Manitoba have dropped over 53 percent from October 1988 to October 1989. That is the the largest drop in the countr y. Today the Financial Post quo ted statistics that show the resale value of existing hou ses in Manitoba is lagging behind most of the rest of the countr y. My question to the Min ister is, what action is his Government taking to confront this emerging crisis which is affecting every Manitoba family , whether they want to buy a new house, sell their existing house, or move into an older house? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Mi nister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the Member is asking us to do, to now lower the prices of housing or wh atever. If he looks through the records he will see that the price of Manitoba housing is about $83,000.00. Does he want us now to come up to the level of Toronto, which is around $2 1 0,000, or does he want us to go to B.C., where it is $220,000.00? I would say that if he is comparing housing pric es and comparing the marketplace, right now Manitoba is the time to buy those particular houses. An alysis Mr.

Jay Cowan (Churchill): If Manitoba is the time to buy, then why is the resale of housing in this province dropping so fast, like bricks, in comparison to other provinces? Every time a new house is not built jobs are lost. Every time a Manitoba family cannot sell their house, an existing house, they are affected . I would ask the Minis ter if he has done any analysis that takes him beyond the simplistic factor of prices to determine why it is our market is slumping so badly and what the Government should be doing in order to help Manitoba families not only gain jobs but be able to sell their existing houses? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Housing): If the Member from across the way will go to the home builders, he will find through conversation with them that now Manitoba is at the average of what it should be in its supp ly. If he wants to compare, and I repeated it for the Member the other day-and he always talks about the Lyon years, he wants to compare those particular years. From '77-81 the housing starts in Manitoba were 25,925. If he wants to compare the next five years under the NOP, that five-year cycle was 23,450 starts. So, Mr.

Speak er, just for the information, the home builders are very confident, and it is in five-year cycles. They feel there is an oversupply. However, due to the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Low- Income Housing Ad vo cac y Gro up Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Last year, in October 1988, there were 461 housing starts in urban centres. This year, in October 1989, there were 216 . That is the respon sibility of the Min ister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) now, not what happened in years past.

If the Min ister will not help home owners, will he at least help the poor and the working poor families who have to rent housing? Will he agree to providing housing advocates, as was requested by church leaders and other Manitobans at a candlelight vigil yesterd ay, to deal with housing problems? Will he at least provide that sort of assistance to renters and the working poor? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I am glad the Honourable Member has brought that up.

To the Honourable Mem ber, we do have a vacancy in our housing, and under the direction of the Winnip eg Regional Housing Authority they are going out to notify these particular groups. The vacancy rate is around 4.3 percent. The waiting list has reduced under the last two years. I have instr ucted my staff to get together with Winnipeg Regional Housing to make sure those people are familiar with that particular vacancy rate in Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. 3494

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 ORDERS OF THE DAY *

(1420) Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson), -that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Housing; and the Honourable Member for Burrows (Mr.

Chornopyski) in the Chair for the Department of Environment. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-HOUSING Mr. Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer): I call this meeting to order. When last we met we were considering the Estimates for the Department of Energy and Mines. Due to a change in the sequence, we will be considering the Estimates for the Department of Housing . Will the Minister responsible begin with an opening statement. The Honourable Minister . Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I welcome the opportunity to talk about the priorities and achievements of Manitoba Housing.

The budget before me reflects a continuation of previous levels of activity. Our Government remains committed to providing additional needed non- prof it housing to ensure an adequate, affordable supply for lower-income households. I will continue to fund both publicly and privately owned non-profit housing throughout the province in co-operation with the federal Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. Mr. Chairman, in recent years we have cost-shared with CMHC about 800 new units annually, with a capital cost of about $50 million. We expect to achieve the same level this year.

In addition, Manitoba Housing will finance the development of a further 400 to 500 units through provincial-only programs at a cost of some $32 million . Through our shelter allowance programs, we expect to pay monthly rent subsidies to some 7,000 tenants renting in privately-owned buildings . This assistance will amount to approximately $6.4 million . I am happy to have been able to announce just last Thursday that we are increasing payouts under our shelter allowance programs by an increase of an estimated $633,000 annually . That is a 10 percent increase over the amount initially budgeted for 1989- 90.

This means that effective January 1, about 92 percent of the elderly clients and 97 percent of the fam ily clients will receive increased monthly benefits . In 1989, as in recent years, we are continuing to concentrate on helping special needs and low-income households for whom participation in the market remains difficult , and particularly in rural communities and Winnipeg 's Core Area where private-sector activity is minimal or non-existent.

Noteworthy projects that we will finance this year include a Native Women's Crisis Shelter on Spence Street and short-term housing for immigrants who need a place to stay till they can get on their feet. We will also continue to provide rent supplement units as necessary for the physically handicapped to ensure that special mobility suites are within the financial reach of all who need them . These monthly subsidies for suites in the private marketplace bring a tenant's rent down to 25 percent of income and are cost-shared with the federal Government.

We will fund an additional approximately 130 suites this year in a variety of housing to bring our total number of rent supplement units in the province to about 1,500. *

(1440) Winnipeg 's Core Area has been one of our primary areas of activity and will remain so this fiscal year. Last year, we committed over 130 units for the core area under our public and private non-profit housing programs . This year, we expect to commit about 200 units in Winnipeg's core under these two programs. I might mention that these numbers do not include activity under the Urban Native Grant Supplement or Co-op HomeStart Programs , all of which will add even more non-profit housing to the core. Mr.

Chairman , we are concerned about the federal Government's recent decision to eliminate the landlord portion of the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program. This program has been very successful in encouraging the upgrading of older privately-owned rental stock in the core area. By its nature, rental RRAP also served the needs of low-income households tenanting those units. We believe that terminating this program will save the federal Government money in the short term, but will result in significantly increased public subsidy costs in the long run .

This is because these units are unlikely to be repaired without assistance and will continue to deteriorate and be lost to the housing stock, thereby placing greater demand on the far more expensive non-profit housing program . I wrote to the federal Minister in May, expressing my concerns and discussed the issue with him further at the Federal-Provincial Housing Ministers' meeting in July. Unfortunately, the decision to eliminate the landlord RRAP seems firm . 3495

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 Mr. Chairman, when our Government announc ed its intention to develop jointly lands in the south, which we now name Grandin Park South, will be known as Grandin Park South, in the south

section of St. Boniface, we were criticized by the Opposition for supposedly not paying enough attention to the housing needs of low- and mid dle-income Manitobans. I think the fact that we have commit ted financing for the construction for some 2,400 new units of non-profit housing over the last two fiscal years shows that we will take our respon sibility to all Manitobans very seriously indeed.

I would also like to stress, as I have previously in the House, that profits from Grandin Park South can be used to further enhance housing programs for low income Manitobans, which is our more traditional area of activi ty. Let me briefly highlight some of this year's non-profit projects currently under construction or in the planning stages: Under our private non-profit program, 14 groups have been approved to receive up to $75,000 each to further develop their proposals for non-profit housing. The proposals include 293 units for seniors, 86 for families and 67 units for persons with special housing needs.

The groups funded include: the Riverborne Development Association, 27 units for seniors; the Lions Club of Selkirk, 36 units for seniors; Filcasa Housing Co-op, 17 senior units, 12 for families; Maps Housing Co-op, 16 units for families; Weston Residents Housing Co-op, 14 family units; the Southeast Asia Refugee Commun ity, 67 units of transition Housing for refugee families; the Wes tmin ister Housing Co-op, 34 units for families and singles.

Under our public non-profit program, we expect to commit family projects in Lac du Bonnet, Virden, Brandon, Neepawa and The Pas, as well as crisis shelters in Brandon and Winnipeg. Under the Urban Native Program, ni ne Nati ve organizations will receive funding to provide 120 units of non-p rofit housing for families and seniors. Under the Rural and Northern Program more than 15 0 units for famili es and senior s will be buil t in smalle r communi ties throughout the province. I would like to mention briefly now the state of the private housing market.

While under-subsid ized private sector construction has been very high in recent years, it is clear we have reached the end of a cycle. Building starts peaked in 1987 and have been declining since then. We expect about 4,000 starts in 1989, which is just slightly below Manitoba's 10- year average and still a respectable level. In fact, bui lders consider this a return to more normal times, compared to the building booms of '86 and '87.

Nevertheless it is likely that the department's activity will account for a greater proportion of starts, and that we will be more significant support for the building ind ustry over the next few years. Vacancy rates in Winn ipeg are currently around the 5.5 percent and this is having an imp act on vacancies in our own public stock. The waiting list for public housing in Winnipeg has declined 30 percent over the last two years and the vacancy rate in our units is now 4 percent. The majority of the vacancy units are in bachelor suites and in our older, elderly-persons' projects.

We no longer build bachelor suites and tenant s understandably prefer a large one-bedroom suite if available. These vacant bachelor suites are a concern to us, and we have recently intensified efforts to market these units. At the same time, we continue to explore alternate uses for them. Problems associated with housing the elderly are becoming a growing concern to staff and to social housing managers. Mr. Chairman, 15 years ago, our average tenant was 65, healthy and active. Today, the average tenant is 78 years of age and two-thirds receive some form of Government support care at least once a week.

Dealing with the increasing need for support services for the elderly at a time when there are stringent financial constraints facing Government, it is not easy. Manitoba Housing hosted two workshops this spring for housin g mana gers, health and social service providers, seniors, advocates and tenants thems elves to discuss ways of coping with tenants who may have been fit and independent when they first moved into senior housing, but whose health is now declining. We will continue to work closely with other departments to address this im portant issue.

As Members may know, one of the Government's major legisla tive packages this Session is a total revam ping of the existing Landlord and Te nant legislation. Passage and im plementation of the new Residential Tenancies Act will be a major goal of the department over the next year. In conclusion, the department's operating budget for the year under review is $50 million, roughly a 4 percent incr ease over last year and in keeping with the rate of inflation. This $50 million represents subsidy costs associated with a wide variety of housing-r elated programs and the adminis tration costs of 255 staff members.

It covers only the operating cost of existing and planned projects and programs. It does not include the capital cost of financing and devel oping new projects. Legislative authority for new construction is $101 million. I might also mention that the $50 million requested for operating is net of antici pated CMHC recoverage of $33 million, and net of rental revenue of approximately $50 million, a factor in the 101 million in capital loan authority mentioned earlier. You can see that the department's total capital and operating expenditures for 19 89-90 amount to some $234 million. Mr.

Chairman, I now welcome the comments via the two critics and then go on to a line-by-line review of these Estimates. 3496

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 ***** An Honourable Member: On a point of order. Mr. Chairman: On a point of order . Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): It is a normal practice when the Minister provides us with a written statement at the opening of Estimates , for that written to be circulated amon g the critics. I wonder if we could have copies made. Mr. Ducharme: Sure , yes. ***** Mr. Chairman: For his opening statement, the Member of the official Oppos iti on, the Member for Inkster. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Chairperson, I will be somewhat brief so that we can go into the questioning of the line to line for the department, but before we proceed onto that I did want to get a few matters under my opening remarks . The first thing is in regard to what I perceive is the attit ude of this Government really when it comes to non-profit or low income housing in the Province of Manitoba. Yesterda y, as we are all aware, we had a vigil, and that vigil was regarding the status and state of our non-profit housing and the need to improve and to have adequate housing for those of the province who are less fortunate .

It was very discouraging to see that neither the Minister of Housing nor the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) nor in fact any Member of the Government had taken the time out to attend that particular vigil. I think being sensitive to the communities is one of the ways that you are going to be ab le to plan in terms of departmental planning . I thought it was somewhat unfortunate that was not the case in this particular instance . Last year, Mr.

Chairperson, act ually the Leader of the official Opposition had made reference in her budget regarding MHRC and the deduction, or what we had _ perceived as the deduction, because it was a deduction on the budget The Minister of Housing responded in his budget debate saying that it was not what the Leade r of the Opposition had stated . In fact, it was because of lower interest rates as the reason why that particular line had-or the transfer payments to MHRC had gone down.

If we look at the actual lines today, we will see that in the year endin g of '88 there was $27 ,914,000 and then at the estimated year ending in '89, $27 ,245.00. That is the deduction that we were referring to. The Minister 's response to that was in fact that it was due to interest rates, that the previous federal Government under Trudeau had signed these mortgages , yet much to my pleasant surprise, I see in this year's actuals that at year ending it was actually an increase up to $28,866,500 .00.

It would be interesting to see how he can explain that substantial differen ce and if the same would be applied in terms of interest, or maybe he can talk about poor accounting in that particular area. The Minister of Housing in his opening remarks made reference to housing starts. If we look at the housing starts in Manitoba in the past year and a half, or since this Government has taken office , we will see in the last 10 months of 1987 in the five major urban areas we had housing starts of 5,813. In 1988 in the same period of time we had 3,983 . In the last 10 months of this year we are down to 2,740.

That is a substantial decrease in housing . The Minister of Housing was quick to respond that it has gone down faster in the past under the NOP administration. *

(1450) Mr. Chairperson , those are not really the types of answers that we are looking for. We are looking for answers that will assure us that the Minister recognizes this Act , to find out what it is that he is doing to address that particular problem. He predicts for 1989 in his opening rem arks that housing starts will be at 4,000 . Maybe one of the reasons why we might hit that 4,000 mark is because of the goods and services tax. I believe you are going to have a large number of people purchasing newer homes before the goods and services tax takes effect.

It stands to reason that if you can save $3,000 to $4,000 on an $80,000 home or $82,000 home which is the average-or actually it is a low-end price for a new home-I can understand why people would be wanting to buy, and I can see some type of mini-boom, if you will, in the housing market if that is the case. I must also say I was somewhat surprised that a Tory dominated committee in the House of Commons is also now sending out signa ls throughout the country that we could in fact be taxing the goods and services tax on not only new houses but also older homes too .

I am going to argue that this type of tax will serve a devastating blow to people who are wanting to be first time home buyers. I can talk about my own particular situation in which I personally had a hell of a time trying to-I hope that is not unparliamentary, Mr. Chairperson, if it is I withdraw that particular phrase. I had a hard time myself in trying to generate enough money to have my down payment. I was grateful that I was able to. The mortgage payments, I am still paying the mortgage payments and I will for another 24 years, or 22 years .

An Honourable Member: And a hard time doing that if you are like the rest of us. Mr. Lamoureux: That is right . I think I can speak on behalf of most first-time home buyers. It is a challenge to try and get that 10 percent. This goods and services tax is going to put an extra $3,000 on an $8,000 (sic) home , in around that figure. The alternatives there are not very good, not very positive .

The simple reason is you are either going to have less equity in your home if you need to apply that goods and services tax to your mortgage , or you are going to have to maybe go out and ask family members or friends to lend you money so that you can come up with those additional monies . I hope that the Minister of Housing has been aggressively approaching this issue , and he should be 3497

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 if he has not already. He should be contacting his counterparts in Ottawa and making sure that the views of this Cham ber, thereby the views of Ma nitobans, are heard loud and clear on this particular issue. Last year I had brought up the landlord and tenant legislation and the need for the Government of the Day to introduce or to bring forward this type of legislation. Shortly after the election, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of the province had said that it was not a high priority, that in fact it would be put on a back bu rner.

I was somewhat dis couraged to hear shortly after I had made the comment that the official Opposition would be very co-operative in ensuring that legislation be dealt with in a very fast and appropriate manner so that the landlords and tenants would both benefit. After all, the recommendations that the legislation is actually based on were made up by landlords and tenants.

We have laws in the province in place to provide harm ony, and if the landlords and tenants could come up to a consensus on 139 recommendations, I believe it is impo rtant for the Government to act fast, as fast as possible, that in fact it should not be put on the back burner. I would like to think, Mr. Chairperson, that pressure from the official Opposition prevailed. I think if you look at the legislation you will see the wording of it might have been rushed somewhat.

We are going to see a few amendments in terms of changing some of the wording around, and I do not mind because I appreciate the Min ister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) taking the init iative, even though he plodded somewhat in bringing forward this particular piece of legislation. You know, Mr. Chairperson, one of the concerns that was brought up from many groups that I have met with regarding The Landlord and Tenant Act was in regard to the rent guidelin es. I do not want to mislead this commit tee nor anyone else.

The Libe ral Party endo rses rent control 100 percent, but this is a time when we see such a high vacancy rate. I think there are a lot of tenants who might not be receiving that 3 percent incr ease. There are landlords that will incr ease that 3 percent automatical ly, Mr. Chairperson, and they do that because they know the following year they are unable to in crease it. I think really what needs to be done in this area, we have to start looking in terms of the guideline, possibly looking through the public or going through committees such as the Public Utilities Board.

It is im portant that we take the tenants' interests. I believe that many of them would not be paying the rent that they are paying now because they had a 3 percent guideline brought in and had taken it for granted, Mr. Chairperson, that 3 percent is all right because this is what the Government says that it is, it is okay if it is 3 percent because an advertisement says that your landlo rd can incr ease it 3 percent.

Actually during the summertime I had brought up the rent control and the need for people to be aware of the fact that even if you receive a 3 percent or anything below a 3 percent rent incr ease, you can appeal it. Mr. Chairperson, the Minis ter will tell you, well, it is on the form, that it is advertised, but the fact of the matter is that if you approach tenants you will find that a vast majority of them are not aware of that fact, and many of them will accept the 3 percent in crease for several years.

I make reference, for example, to the Albina place, which is a residential complex that myself and my colleague from St. Vital had brought up in which they accepted that 3 percent because they did not know that they could appeal it if it was at 3 or below 3 percent, and then all of a sudden they are hit with a fluctuating, depending on which unit you are in, 10 to 20 percent rent in creases. One of the suggestions that I did suggest was that on a notice of in crease of rent, you should have a clause in there that basically states that you can appeal a rent incr ease at or above or below the guideline itself.

The cost of that, Mr. Chairperso n, would be really next to nothing, because you have to print up the forms. As soon as these current forms run out, when you are going for your next print, include that on the form itself. At present, and I read from it, it says that a tenant has the right to object to an increase in rent, see bottom of form, and nowhere does it really state that if the rent is below that rent incr ease of 3 percent, you can in fact appeal it. Many tenants are of the opinion, Mr. Chairperson, that that in fact is the case.

In making reference to the Ladco-M HR C deal that the Min ister had made reference to in his opening comments, which was Meadows West, I make reference to it as the Ladco -MHR C deal in the south end. Meadows West, the Mini ster asks me what I call Meadows West. The Ladco -(interjection)- the Member from Churchill (Mr. Cowan) suggests that I should call it the Ladco -MHR C swe etheart deal. I do not know, Mr. Chairperson, I think I could probably concur with the Member for Churchill, because I do have a lot of reservations about the Ladco and the MHR C deal. The Min ister of Housing (Mr.

Ducharme) says that he has none. * (15 00) My intentions are to pursue some questioning. I am sur e he would be more than happy to answer those questions, because I believe that on the surface I have not been totally convinced that the province received the best deal. The Min ister can flash these $9 million profits and he is going to put it toward non-pr ofit housing, Mr. Chairperson. I do not think that that is going to happen. I believe that the Minis ter maybe signed an agreement he should not have signed.

I think he should maybe have been looking at the other deals and ramifications and the housing market and the projected revenues, and speak in terms of realistic terms. Mr. Chair pers on, the Minis ter of Ho using (Mr. Ducharme) says that he has looked at the deal, and this will be an opportunity for me to let him kno w. For example, during Question Period a couple of days back I asked him how many houses in regard to the deal and how much profit was going to be made in the first five years. I had suggested that more than 50 percent of the profit was going to be made in the first five years.

According to his paper, that shows it at $5.25 million. 3498

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 On his press release regarding that deal dated May 25, 1989, it says that the profit projected is $9.7 million . Well, again using his own figures, that tells me that $5.5 is more than 50 percent of the profit , yet the Minister of Housing seemed to be somewhat persistent that that was not the case. Mr. Chairperson, the Min ister of Housing also made reference to the number of houses that are going to be built in that particular time span, and instead of going on and on on this, I plan to show maybe his answer was not quite as correct.

Maybe the Minister did not really know what he signed when he applied his signature to that piece of paper . Another concern that I raised last year, representing the official Opposition, was the whole question of infill housing . Mr. Chairperson, last year during the Estimates process, the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) had made a commitment. I should not say a firm commitment, but he did say that basically our goal was to reach 33 infill houses . I was glad to hear that, even though it was down 17 from the previous budget, but I was still glad to hear that they did not can the program.

As the year went on and the Estimates or that cycle year came to an end, it was unfortunate to see that there were no infill houses built . I think, Mr. Chairperson, that again shows the commitment of this Government toward good housing initiatives, good housing programs . This is the program that the NDP had brought in, but it is a program that we support and we would like to see continue . This year so far there still has not been , unless in the last month and a half, any construction on infill houses.

I know the Minister will tell me about my own community of Weston, and I am grateful that Weston is going to be getting some . Weston has been working very hard as a community, as a revitalization board to try and do a lot of things, and the infill houses play a major component in terms of that area being revitalized. Mr. Chairperson, I would hope that Weston will not be the only benefactor, that there are other revitalization programs, and I will make another plug for Shaughnessy Park which is in my particular riding in which they started up a revitalization program .

I am hoping that when the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) and his department is presented a list from this particular group that he would give some consideration also to the infill housing as a potential program that will help revitalize that area . Mr. Chairperson , I believe that should apply to all areas , not only in the City of Winnipeg, but the rural parts of Manitoba also.

Rural Manitoba is in need of social housing and non-profit housing revitalization in some areas, and if the infill housing program can help facilitate this revitalization then I would hope that the Government or the Minister would take that into account . I am sure we will see some infill houses built by the end of this year because the Minister has made I believe a commitment that he will not back down on. I appreciate that . Mr. Chairperson, there is also another issue that would like to take light on and that is of course our shelter allowances.

It was interesting when I first asked last fall about the SAFER Program in particular, and the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) stated that it was not in fact a cutback, that there was no cutback, and that I was reading things incorrectly . Part of his answer included that when the Estimates come then I will find out that in fact I was wrong . Well, Mr. Chairperson, through an Order-in-Council we actually found out the truth. We found out in fact that there was a cutback in the allotment and that can be pointed out right in black and white .

That is the nice thing about Hansard ; when we do meet in forums of this nature , you are able to point out things that someone has said and if there is a bit of a contradiction you are able to point that out . Then later on in fall, Mr. Chairperson, again through questioning from the official Opposition, we had the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) starting to admit that there was maybe a bit of a cutback in the allotment portion . He shakes his head . I hope he is not saying no now. Then he starts saying, well, okay, but this was a PC initiative.

It was Sterling Lyon who brought it in and the NDP did not increase it, where it has been increased twi ce in the past six years. I think the Minister of Housing should give credit to where credit is deserved and look back to 1979 when the Member for Fort Rouge at that time and now a Member of Parliament- An Honourable Member: A very capable predecessor. Mr. Lamoureux: That is right, the predecessor of the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) currently and that is of course Mr.

Lloyd Axworthy who introduced a resolution suggesting that what is needed in this Chamber was Shelter Allowance Programs for our seniors and for our families. What I thought was responsible of the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) to do was to finally admit in his own way that what I was pointing out was correct. That he did need to review the matter. He did review the matter , and now he has come up with an index of 10 percent or 9 to 10 percent, depending on which way you look at it. I believe , Mr.

Chairperson, that if this was not a minority Government , if it was not for the pressure put on from the official Opposition, that increase would not have been coming . I do not believe that this Government would have increased it and I think being respo nsib le pos itive Opposition we brought this to light, and ensured that the Government did the right thing. Wherever we can help the Minister along in this nature we will be more than happy to .

There are many areas the Minister has decided to cut along or change that we will be making more references to during the line of questioning, one of those of course being the Critical Home Repair. The Minister will say we did not cut that program. No, no, they did not-the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) is like myself. Technically the program no longer exists but it has been replaced. The question is: how has it been replaced, in what manner? Instead of giving you the answer, I think maybe 3499

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 in all fairness I will let the Min ister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) through my questioning answer and facilitate what he perceives of that particular program. Mr. Chairperson, we can go on to the same type of changing in the housing co-ops. The Minis ter of Housing has made reference to the land lord RAP Program being cut by the federal Govern ment. It is unfortunate that we lost this program. That program provided init iative for our landlords downtown in the Core area and even outside of the Core area to im prove the living conditions of many tenants.

We can go back to that vigil yesterday in which the Government did not have any Mem bers, but I should not bevel on that point, even though it somewhat upsets me. An Honourable Member: Was the NOP there? Mr. Lamoureaux: No, the Liberal Party was the only one there, the of ficial Opp osition. An yway , Mr. Chairperson, I should move along with the last emphasis on that landlord RAP. It is unfortunate that we have lost that program, but I am sure that the Min ister of Housing will not give up easily.

If he is unable to persuade his federal counterparts otherwise, we will see the Government po ssibly coming up with an alternative to it. One last comment, Mr. Chair person, because there are other qu estions and we do have a lim ited amount of time. I was not even planning to spend this amount of time on my opening remarks. We also wanted to look at the women's battering shel ter.

There is a need, and we have seen some direction from the Government in meeting part of that need, but we have had federal Government make monies available to the development of these shelters and I think it is an opportunity in which we can ensure that wherever there is a need we should be able to meet it. Yes terday-it was just from a group that I met with. They brought up the need for a Native shelter for women up in The Pas.

I am hoping to get some answers from the Mini ster in that area, because if there is a need now we have the opportunity to get the $300,000 I believe it is or $340,000 from the federal Government to ensure that program goes ahead. If there is the need there or anywhere else, and we recognize the fact that the Min ister has done some work in that area, but if there still is a need in some areas, that we should be looking at that because the money is being made available. • ( 151 0) Another thing along the same lines with the shelters such as Osborne House.

In many cases what happens right now is we will have a woman entering the shelter and she is going to be requiring housing after she leaves that shelter. Because of some of their situations, whether it is a very low income or the need to be able to be of help in any man ner, there is no housing or there is no gu arantee for housing in the non- profit sector to ensure that person that they have a place to go after that shelter, and when they are in the shelter they should be receiving counselling.

If you are only allowed to stay in there, I believe, it is for 21 days, many of them are out there looking for another place to live. If we were to provide a six month transitional house so they could go from shelters, like Osborne Ho us e, into a transitional house, Mr. Cha irperson, it would make life a lot easier for these women who have been put in such an unfortun ate position. The Mini ster of Housing might say there is a cost factor to everything I am sayi ng.

Well, there might be a minimal cost factor to something of this nature, but if we take a look at converting a block, whether it is over time or whether it is through construction of some non-pr ofit units being allocated to designate one of those blocks as transitional housing, the cost would be no more than what it currently is, because these women are waiting, in some cases, to get into non profit housing.

If we can accommodate that and take the pressure off them of looking for a residence inside the shelter maybe then they can be getting the counselling that they deserve, that they need, and many are requiring. On that note, Mr. Chai rperson, I will conclude. Mr. Chairman: I would recognize the Member for Churchill for his opening statement. Mr. Cowan: I would like to start off with laying before the commit tee a basic premise, which I believe should, in large part, direct the review of the Estimates of the Min ister of Housing in the Department of Housing.

I am going to put it forward, because I believe it is an overall goal to which we should all subscribe and one which I think we can all agree to, at least in certain respects. Our disagreements will boil down to matters of im plementation of certain policies, as well as, program deliv ery. I believe if we start with the concept that housing is a right, that we all have a right to adequate, affordable, accessible housing, then we can start to build policies and programs around that basic premise which deals with specific problems.

If we agree that it is a right and I do not know anyone in this room, I do not know of any individual, notwithsta nding what their political ideology mi ght be, who would di sagree with the statement seriously that housing is a right.

There may be some who would disagree as to how they would like to see that right exhibited and how they would like to see the respon sibil ities dealt with, but basically everyone would agree that someone else should have the opportunity to live in decent shelter, and that shelter should be shelter they can afford without driving them into debt, or without restricting their access to it, because of no adequate shelter being available to them that is affordable. The Memb er for ln kster (Mr. Lamou reux) had ind icated he had trouble making a down payment, as did we all, on a first-time basis.

We all have trouble with the mortgages from month to month as occasions arise, but the fact is we can afford the housing. It is a difficul ty, but we can afford it. There are far too many in this society who canno t afford that sort of housing, and in this province who do not have that sort of housing. Therefore, if we agree 3500

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 it as a right, and we agree that not everyone has access to that right , or enjoys that right in the way in which they should, we also should agree that Government has a responsibi lity to then fill in the gaps . The Government has a responsibility to ensure our rights are protected. The Government has a responsibility to ensure that where the basic needs, shelter, food , and clothing being foremost among them, are not accessible to step in and provide support.

I believe , from my perspective, that Government must treat everyone equitably, but at the same time must protect the most vulnerable in society. I believe there are distinctions among our citizens as to how they can access our programs and how they enjoy the rights , which all citizens should enjoy equally . There are those who are vulnerable , and we must address our priority needs toward those who are most vulnerable in the first instance . I believe Government can fulfill its responsibility by three means. One is the provision of services, programs and policies .

The second is the regulation of legislation and the regulation of circumstances where they require that sort of direct Government involvement. The third is the encouragement of the development of housing programs by others , and housing generally by others, so we can work in a partnership, in a collective, be it private or public, be it non-profit or profit, or a co operative to meet housing needs . I think everyone wants to do that. Having set out those premises I have to tell you, Mr. Chairperson , that I do not think the Government has a very good record in that regard to date .

We have indicated some of the statistics that lead us to that conclusion, but before going into detail I want to make a point as well. I think some progress has been made in some areas by this Government. So while the record is not very good overall I do not think it is entirely negative . I think we have a responsibility to congratulate and commend the Government where in fact they have made progress. I think Bill No. 42 is a good start, The Residential Tenancies Act.- (interjection)- •

(1520) The Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) says he does not know how the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) got that Bill through his Cabinet . I have to agree that it was probably a very difficult task, and I have to congratula te the Minister in persevering . I think it shows a v ery strong commitment to that Bill. There will be amendments that we think are important to be made, and we will be making those amendments along with other Parties as well. They will either survive or fail on their merit at the committee stage . We do believe there are some gaps in that Bill overall that require filling.

We believe there are some inconsistencies. We believe there are some wording changes that will be required , but overall we believe that is a very good start toward regulating the industry and the housing sector in an equitable way. We will leave the committee hearings as a time when we can discuss the detai l of those amendments, but we will be bringing those forward. I wanted to make this point, because I heard something outside of this building which distressed me somewhat . I have also heard it in the Chamber which distressed me. There is some suggestion by the Liberal Housing Critic (Mr.

Lamoureux) that we are holding up the passage of that particular Bill. It was just related to me the other day that again someone had heard that mentioned . I do not know if it is an accurate reflection of what the Housing Critic may have said outside of this House for the Liberals or not, but I do want the record to be straight. I can tell you , Mr. Chairperson , that the New Democratic Party Opposition has a few more speakers to speak on that Bill, because we believe it is an important Bill and one which requires the support of all legislators.

For that reason we want , as Members, to put on the record those comments which we believe will assist the Minister, because we believe his task of getting it through his Cabinet is not yet over. That will assist the Minister in ensuring that Bill becomes a reality. However , the fact is that Bill has not been called for several weeks now, and that is of concern to us. The Minister can relate to you that I have had personal conversations with him asking that Bill be called so we can deal with it before the Christmas holiday.

I can also indicate to Members that the New Democratic Party Caucus , through our House Leader (Mr. Ashton), has written to the Government House Leader (Mr. McCrae) saying that is one of the priority Bills we want to see passed before the Christmas holiday. In order for it to be passed it must be called. I want the record to be very clear. We think it is a good start . We think it is based largely, in part, on what we had done as an effort throughout the past couple years starting with the task force.

So the working group that included landlord representatives, representatives of Government, representatives of the housing organizations out there, it did not follow what we had as a draft Bill that was ready to introduce when the Government fell, but it is close enough to it that we believe it can be improved upon in the committee stage, and we will be working toward that goal.

We also think, in some of the areas, that the Minister outlined some social housing, the Native women 's crisis centre, the Riverborne Development Association, housing for seniors, the Lions Club housing for seniors in Selkirk, the Filcasa housing co-op, the Maps housing co-op, the Weston residents housing co-op, the Southeast Asia refugee community, transitional housing and the Westminster housing co-op, and there are other projects that are under way out there.

We believe that those are also part of a positive approach on the part of the Government that does not go far enough but as far as it goes it has been productive and it has been worthwhile. We will encourage even greater steps in that area over time. We are concerned, however, notwithstanding those projects, that the Government has not fulfilled all of its responsibility to low and middle income Manitoba families and to those in need of housing through social housing programs.

It is interesting to note that the Minister in his opening remarks did not mention the Ladco deal and he took some offence when he-or he at least tried to correct the record. 3501

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 An Honourable Member: No, I wanted to put it on the record. Mr. Cowan: Well, he wanted to put on the record what his Government is now calling, or at least what he is now calling, the Ladco deal in their formal presenta tion. You will note that earlier I asked the Min ister for a copy of his written speech and I did that because it is easier to follow. At some times you canno t catch every nuance that the Mi nis ter says during his comments but also because sometimes you can see where the Mi nister differs somewhat in his spoken word than he does in his written word.

I think it is interesting on page 6 of the Mini ster's written speech he said, "Mr. Chairman," and I quote from the speech, "when our Government announc ed its intention to jointly develop the Grandin Park south proposal" -that is how he said it here but in his speech that was written it say s-" Mr. Chairman," and it is somewhat different, and I will point out the difference, "when our Government ann ounced its intention to jointly develop land with Ladco in south St. Boniface," what that tells me are two things.

One is that the wordsmiths have gotten to the Min ister and they are sayi ng, look, be careful in how you reference - (In terjection)- Mr. Chairman: Order, please . Mr. Cowan: Well, the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) says perhaps the Mini ster did the editing and perhaps he did, but I think even if he did it himself he did it on the basis of advice. What that tells me as well is not only was there a change but that change is because there is a sensitivity to calling this the Ladco deal.

There is a sensitivity to calling this the Ladco deal because it is a bad deal, and it is now firmly implan ted in the public's mind as the Ladco deal. It is not yet firmly impl anted in the public's mind as the Ladco MH RC sweet heart deal, but I believe that will come in time. When I say it is a sweet heart deal, it is no reflection on the Member personal ly. It is a reflection on the close working relationship between the Con servatives generally and the Liberals most occasional ly, but they are not in power now to test that thesis.

The Conservatives, generally with land developers, there is a very close affini ty, and we see it exhibit itself in all sorts of ways which I am not going to mention because I do not want to get us off on the wrong track.

I do believe that there is very little doubt in anyone's mind that when friendly discussions take place between land developers and political Parties, they are most likely to take pla ce between land developers and Conservatives, and secondly , between land developers and Liberals. * (15 30) I can tell you our discussions have not been quite as friendly although they have not always been antagonistic.- (interjection)- The Member says that Ladco does not talk to him, the Member for lnk ster, the Housing Critic (Mr. Lamoureux), but I recall that when this deal went forward in the first ins tance his Leader (Mrs.

Carstairs) ran out to call land developer proponents, or he did, and his Leader then repeated what they had received from the land developers with respect to that particular issue. I can tell you that we did not go out and make those same sorts of calls right off the bat, but I want to get back to the comments at hand. I believe that it is a bad deal economically because of the housing market now, and I think it is a bad deal because it did not provide for any social housing component.

We will discuss that in more detail as we go through the review of that particular deal, the Ladco deal, and we will talk about the Ladco MHR C deal qui te a bit during these upcoming Estimates. The Crit ic al Home Repair Program cutb ack, elimination of, which it was, is another area where we believe the Government has failed in its resp onsibility with respect to low income and middle income Mani toba famil ies. When we first accused the Government of elimin ating that program the Minis ter gave one of his yes, no, maybe so answers.

Yes, we still have the program; no, maybe we do not have; maybe so, we have this other program; and it was a great day of confusion as to whether or not the program actually existed. In the end what was found to be reality was that there is no longer a Critical Home Repair Program of the same nature that there was. It has been replaced by another program. I believe that other program is in some ways not as strong as the Critical Home Repair Program was and in other ways it may be better.

The fact is, the Mini ster should have had the cou rage to have just said, yes, we have elimi nated the one program, and we have this other program, and you can judge us on our approach to social housing needs and to prov iding subsidy programs and assistance programs to low and middle income famil ies on the basis of us eliminating the one program, which was very definitely a New Democratic Party program, and putting in place the other program and you compare the two, but he did not do that.

I thought that was wrong of him to do, and I also think it confused people generally with respect to what this Government was going to provide and not provide and for that reason did a dis service to the general public. We have seen that with co-op HomeStart grants, elimination of a portion of that program.

There are others that we will want to discuss during the Estimates, but I want to go on to another area now leaving this area by sayi ng basically tha t we do believe the Government has a large responsibili ty to provide housing programs and housing policies that ensure adequate, affo rdable and accessible housing for all Manitobans. We do not believe that they have lived up to those respo nsibili ties generally, and they have a long way to go. I want to then talk about a couple of special areas. One is with respect to public and private non-profit housing, with co-op housing.

I believe the Government has a resp onsibility to create opportunity for groups to coalesce around the provision of housing needs in their own area whether it be a demographic area, whether it be a geographical area, or whether it be a special interest area, that they have a respo nsibility to 3502

Tuesday , December 5, 1989 assist people to come together to provide for their own housing where adequate housing and aff ordable housing and acce ssible housing does not exist for them. I think they can do that in a numb er of ways. One is to provide assistance, and th ey can provi de organ izati onal assistance, and they can provide advocacy or ongoing assistance. Earlier today in the Question Period we asked the Min ister if they would provide housing advocates to housing concerns groups and to social groups in the city and outside the city as well.

The Min ister did not answer that question so we will be repeating that question again during the course of these Estimates, and we will be repeating that suggestion again. It is not a suggestion that comes only out of today's Question Period; it was something that we sugg ested when we discus sed Bill 42 as being a requirement for the effe ctive im plementation of that Bill. We believe that the Bill is a good Bill as far as it goes. We want to make it better .

At the same time we think that it needs an educative component and also a support component to ensure that it is used most eff ectively by those who require its use most. We will be addressing that during the cours e of these Estimates. We believe the Government has to create opportuni ty, provide assistance, and we also believe it has to regulate. There are far too many slums-to use the vernacular, the generic term -in the City of Winnipeg and in other areas in this province. For this day and age we should be ashamed that they still exist.

As a Member of a Government that has been in power for a num ber of years, we take some responsibility for that as well. It is not a problem that I lay entirely on the doorstep of the Minis ter, but it is a problem that requires further action. Bill No. 42 will go some ways toward dealing with it, but there are some other actions that can be taken that we will be suggesting as well, so that is one of the special areas. The second is with respect to conditions in my own constituency and neighbouring constituencies, that is the problems with northern housing.

We know that if there is any group in this province that has probably the least access to affordable, adequate and access ible housing, it is th ose living in remote no rthern communities. The problems are well defined. We have no need any longer for any debate or analysis as to what the problems are at the present time. There are also some well-defined policy changes that have been developed in co-operation and consultation with Northerners. That was one of the main thrusts that we were embarking upon at the time of the defeat of the Government.

Perhaps it had taken us too long to reach the stage we had, but we honestly thought we had a bit more time. Not having had that time, we were then prepared to allow the Government, the new Govern ment, to work on the area and to carry on what I thought was some significant momentum that had been built over a number of years which had led us to a point in time where action was immin ent and I believe very positive change was possible.

It is a difficult problem because of the different areas that are involved, the different levels of Government, and the phi losophical and policy changes that would be required to make for a good program. I believe the changes are there to be made. I believe we know what we have to do. I believe that action is needed, that we need to turn control over to the local communi ties. There are several models we can fol low. I believe that we have to provide some suppor t to those commu nities as they take over control. I believe we should turn the existing housing stock over to individuals and communities in the North.

I believe that we need to make some changes in the standards and the building codes and that by working together with Northerners we could today, as we could have almost two years ago, put together a program that could be im plemented very quickly if we were able to gain the support of the federal Government. I think we should be working towards that, and we will be recommending that and suggesting that during the course of these Estimates. A more specific area with respect to northern housing is Lynn Lake.

As the Minis ter knows, Lynn Lake is now in a situation where housing values have plu mmeted, because the main emp loyer in the community is closing down the mine and the mill. People have saved all their lives to put equity into their houses. That is probably their only form of savings, and they now are going to lose it all. I believe there are two responses that are required on the part of the Government.

I have made this case in the Seniors Estimates, I have made this case now in the Housing Estimates, I have made this case in the House, I have made this case in the Energy and Mines Estimates, and I will continue to make the case. There should be an immedia te targeted response to provide some financial support to those who are losing their homeowner's equity as a result of a decision that was taken by a party outside of their control, the LynnGold operation, in the first ins tance and I think exacerbated by the Government's bumbling negotiations to keep that operation going.

Therefore, I believe the Government has a responsibility to involve itself in that area, for if the operation had kept going there would not be the problem that we have today. I believe that there must be some way to recompense those individuals. I also believe that we need an overall policy that goes beyond Lynn Lake and add resses other si ngl e-ind ustry communities with respect to some form of insur ance for future occasions and crises of this sort. I think the Government has taken and is taking the wrong approach with respect to land devel opment.

I do not think they are helping the orderly development of the city in a planned and systematic way by their deals with land developers , whether it be the College Green or the Ladco deal. I do not believe that they are providing for the leadership that is required to ensure that land development in the city is based on and responsive to the needs of residents of the city, rather than the needs of land developers. I un derstand the approach, I understand the philosophic al and historical approach on the part of the Conservative Party, but I believe it to be the wrong approach.

Today, earlier in the Question Period, we talked about the crisis proportions that are being reached now 3503

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 because of the Gover nment's in ab ility to develop housing policies and programs which provide for a stable housing market. We saw figures today that came out from the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics which quo tes Statistic Canada figures which show that Manitoba had the largest drop, the largest percentage negative change in the numb er of housing starts in urban centres from October of 1988 to October of 19 89. In October of 1988 there were 461 starts; in October of 1989 there were 216 starts. That is a decrease of 53 .1 percent.

Overall, Janu ary to October of '88 to Janua ry to October of '89, the change has been 31. 2 perce nt. Mani toba ranks ninth lowest out of ten provinces; only Saskatchewan is lower. What that tells me is that the housing policies of this Government are failing. • (15 40) When we bring this issue to the Min ister's attention in the House he quo tes figures from 19 77 and 1981 when the Lyon admin istration was in place and then quo tes figur es from a New Democratic Party adminis tration in a certain portion of that.

I think he is being rather selective and somewhat intellectually dish onest when he quo tes those statements. I think he was much more honest today in his opening comments when he said, and he talked about an outside party, a third party, build ers. He says, in fact bui lders consider this a return to more normal times compared to the building boom of 1986 and 1987. There was a building boom in 1986 and 19 87. There was a New Democratic Party adminis tration in 1986 and 1987 and there was in fact housing programs that were designed to encourage housing starts in this province.

Now we did not develop those programs because we wanted just to see housing starts take place for statistical analysis. We developed them because every time a house is not constructed in this province, workers lose jobs. As a matter of fact, that is not just me saying that. If you read the Provincial Housing Outlook which was put together for National Housing Outlook, Summer 1989, by Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, if you read it, it will say very clearly that there will be a reduction in the construction ind ustry workforce because of poor housing sales.

The fact is that when the housing sales go down, construction workers lose their jobs. The other most recent statistic which we just received is with respect to resales, and what is ironic about it, it is in the Financial Post of December 5. I believe that is today. An

article which has the headline, West leads rebound in house sales, and one would think that would be good news for Manitoba, but when you look at the actual figures they do not consider Manitoba or even Saskatchewan for that matter to be part of the West , because we have dropped signif icant ly. As a matter of fact, of the ten provinces we had the seventh poorest record of resales.

What that means to me is that people are not buying older houses, so if you want to sell your house and there is a dynamic that is ongoing at all times in the housing market and people rely upon the ability to be able to sell their houses, and you cannot sell your house, that is going to affect you negatively as a Manitoba family . That is going to mean that you will have to ach ieve less than you thought your house was worth, well perhaps even less than you paid for it, if it continues on at the rate that it has, significantly less in the future.

It also means that the policy of the Government that has generally been to try to provide for stable growth is not working and either the Government has to come up with a new policy or come up with a new policy statement which says we will no longer subscribe to the goal or the objective of stable growth in our housing market because that is what is happening. It is not stable; it is de-stabilized. It is reaching crisis proportions. On August 22, 19 89, in the Free Press, a gentleman, Richard Gauthier of CMHC, I think said it as well as it could be said.

He said, it has not been a good year in Manitoba for either construction or resales according to market statistics for the first seven months of this year. The fact is, it has not been a good year. One could almost forgive the Government, not quite, but would be more prone to at least be somewhat sympathetic to the Government if they said, yes, it has not been a good year and here are the policy init iatives that we are bringing forward to ensure that it will be a better year next year. They have not done that, and what they are relying on I believe is the GST .

I think they are relying on an in crease in housing sales and resales if the GST is applied to older existing housing. That will create a mini-boom, but that mini-boom will only last until the GST comes into effe ct. Then there is going to be an even worse crisis, and the destabilization will become even more of a problem at that point in time.

It would almost be better to have a general downturn that then works its way up over a period of time to provide for some stability than this boom for one year or less and then this plummeting where people again who have bought houses at in creased prices lose sign ificant ly. I believe that the Government should not be relying on the GST to stimu late the housing market because it will be a destabilizing factor over a period of time. I also believe it puts the Government in a dilemma. How does the Mi nister of Housing (Mr.

Ducharme) go and argue against the GST if his Government is relying upon the GST to take them out of the doldrums that they are in now because they have no policy? I think that would be some thing that would concern the Mini ster of Housing. He would have to be somewhat ambiguous in his arguments because he kno ws that if he wins the argument then they will not have that housing boom because they do not have the policies in place that could come into effect if the GST did not go into place.

We will also be asking the Mini ster to provide us with an analysis of the goods and services tax not only with respect to how it may incr ease sales, but also how it is going to dampen sales over a period of time, how 3504

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 it is going to take money out the pockets of Manitoba families, and how it is going to take money out of the pockets of those most in need without much sensitivity to their financial status. The two other special issues that I wanted to talk about are with respect to the federal Government and the Mi nis ter's mu ted criticism of the federal Government. As a matter of fact, it was very targeted and selective criticism of the federal Govern ment with respect to their programs and the reduction, the elimination of the landlord portion of the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program.

Certainly one should take some offence to that reduction and we hope that the Mini ster will use every opportunity to prevail upon the federal Government to have them turn around that decision and to provide for the continuation of that program. We encourage him in those efforts. What we found difficult about what the Min ister said was the absence of any reference to co-op housing, which has been cut back horribly by the federal Government and something we criticized the federal Government for when we were in Govern ment, and yet we do not hear that same sort of criticism coming forward.

We did not hear him criticize the cutbacks in non profit housing subsidies and housing programs. We did not hear him criticize the total inadequa cy and in some instances cutbacks in Native housing both on and off reserve. We did not hear him criticize in many other areas where the federal Government has either cut back programs or failed to im plement programs that were need ed. Are you indicating I am somewhat pressed for time? Mr. Chairman: I am told that your time is up at this time. Just take a minute to wrap up. Mr. Cowan: Mr.

Chairperson, we will also be talking as did the Liberal Housing Critic about the shelter allowance and the need for inde xing that is probably something that we should have done as a Government We did not, but that does not mean that we cannot be suppo rtive of this Government in trying to correct some of the areas that we perhaps did not take as positive an action as we should. That concludes my remarks for this period of time, but there are a number of specific issues which I am certain will get much further detailed review over the cou rse of the next day, week, month, year. Mr. Chairman: Thank you.

We will proceed now to Resolution 1, General Adminis tration. We would invite the Mi nister's staff to come forward and take a seat at the front. Under Manitoba practice, the debate on the Minis ter's sal ary is traditionally the last item conside red for the Estima tes of a department. Acco rdingly , we shall now proceed with consideration of the next Resolution. Item 1, General Admin istration: Provides executive direction and support services for the operating programs of the Departm ent. Provides Manitobans with a kno wledge of Department programs. We will proceed to l(

b) Executive Support; 1. (b)

(1) Salaries, $268,700-the Member for ln kster. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I would ask the Min ister if he could tell us, what type of land bank do we have in terms of size, both inside the City of Winnipeg and outside of the City of Winnipeg? Mr. Ducharme: First of all, I will give you a breakdown. Parcels of land inventory and land bank, as at February '86, the number of parcels was 93; total acres of 4,289; a book value at $32,855,398.00. * (15 50) Mr. Lamoureux: Start over again, if it is okay. Mr. Ducharme: Do you want what is was when we came in and what it is now, or just want now? Mr.

Lamoureux: Both. Mr. Ducharme: First of all, when we came into office, or we will use February '86, the num ber of parcels was 93; total acres 4,289; book value was $32,855,398.00. As of September 30, parcels of land, 80; total numb er of acres 2,628; gross was $28,335,364.00. Provision for loss, which we have now set up in the books, $16, 15 5, 109; book value, $12, 18 0,255.00. This figure does not include the John Bruce Roadsite of 106 acres, which is now in the-go ahead. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Ch airperson, can the Minister state what type of agreements the Minis ter has entered into other than the Ladco -MHR C deal? Mr. Ducharme: If you are talking about the land, Brandon Park South is the only one that we have entered into. Mr. Lamoureux: From '86 to '89, we have lost just under 2,000 acres, is that- Mr. Ducharme: Yes, the recom mendation of the Peat Ma rwick was, and I can probably give you-the re was declared surplus by a Cabinet resolution of the previous admin istration.

There were 25 parcels that had total acres of 1, 940, given a book value of $10 million, that was disposed of, that was declared surplus at that time by the previous adminis tration. We have disposed of seve nteen and one-third parcels, a total acreage of 1, 404, a book value of $7,805,493.00. Mr. Lamoureux: When you say you disposed of it, in what manner would it have been disp osed? Mr.

Ducharme: What we usually do is, we will take the appraised values and either someone will come forward offering you an off er-w e have been known to list them based on those appraised values, hoping that we would be able to dispose of them over a period of time. 3505

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 Mr . Chai rman: The Memb er for lnk ster . The Honourable Min ister. Mr. Ducharme: There has been mostl y-public tender is usually how you dispose of them. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chai rperson, that was actually what I was trying to get at in terms of, is there a public tendering process to the disposing of the lots, and he add ressed that in his last comment. The other thin g I wan ted to comment on was something that I had made a brief reference to previously. That is the condition of the rental housing marke t up in Churchill.

It appears that the MHR C has acquired or is looking into acquiring or is runnin g-I am not a hund red percent clear on it-the Jack O'Connor block. I am wondering if the Mi nister can update us in terms of what has happened with that program, keeping in mind from what I understand it had received, or it was a beneficiar y of the rural RentalStart Program. If we had to have a write-off or a foreclosure I will let him elaborate on it. Mr. Ducharme: First of all, Jet us get the message straight.

We do not want to obtain any additional dwellings up in the Churchill area as the Member is probably aware that we control. I think the official critic of the NO P Opposition, I know what he had to deal with a couple of years ago at open meetings when he had to deal with what is going on in Churchill. I am sure he has some tough knocks that are still showing on his back. However, under these particular circu mstances we have taken over the O'Connor block. The takeover was during the period of December 1, 1988, the takeover by MHR C, to March 31.

The operating loss experienced by MHR C was $1 5,000 or app roximately $3,700 per month. From April 1, 1989, to November 1 the loss to MHR C is $7,000, or approxima tely a thousand dollars per month. The amount Jost to date is $22,000.00. The reference losses are after repayment of the monthly payment. We are required to repay the loan of $952,000 which is approxima tely $7, 100 per month. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, again to the Minis ter, the Tu ndra apartment blocks, from what I understand the federal Government is not going to be renewing that lease.

When the federal Government had joined in with the province in building that particular block, they were taking care of the operational costs of that block. Now that they have decided not to renew this lease, I am wondering if the Min ister can tell me what type of compensation we are going to be receiving from the federal Government from this. Mr. Ducharme: Again, I would like to stress to the Member that we do not want to take over any blocks, but that was a contract that was established by the previous admin istration when the block was built in 1974.

I can get the figures of what we will suffer as a result of the Joss. Because they are giving it back, we would prefer selling the building. We do not anticipa te any large losses at this time. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, the Mi nister has given the impr ession that he has not sought any type of compensation from the federal Government for not trying to renew this.

It comes to my mind that if the federal Government made a commitment to have or to use a block of this nature in Churchill to house federal empl oyees and the Gover nm ent went in on th at assumption, now that the federal Government through the dwindling number of federal employees at Churchill, the federal Government now assumes that we are going to pick up the costs, the loss. No doubt there will be a loss when it comes time to sell this block. Has the Mi n ister had any contact wh atsoever with the Department of Works? Mr .

Ducharme: Under the agreement of '74 as it was set up, we are compelled to take over the building at their wish, and at that price of a dollar. We are hoping that we can sell it. By purchasing it for a dollar, whatever we can sell it for would of cou rse substantiate any losses that we might incur in the mid term, but the building as anticipated would be worth- how much?

What we will do is at the time we will examine when we do have to take over this particular building, if that is the case, we would examine our operating costs and compar e that and see what we can do at that time, but I have to reinforce the position that it is something that was put in our hands. It was a contract that was designed earlier, as I say, in 1974. At the time Churchill probably was flourishing. I am not going to sit here and knock the previous admi nistration for entering into an agreement that lasted almost 20 years. However, at this time we will examine the operating costs.

What I am saying is, our whole idea is to dis pose of the building. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, can the Mi nis ter answer how many non-profit housing units are currently in Churchill, and if they are all mana ged through the Churchill Housing Authority? Mr. Ducharme: I can say roughly that there are somewhere between 220 and 250 that are operated under the Churchill. Mr. Lamoureux: Does the Mini ster have any idea in terms of how many private units there are, just an approximate figure? Mr. Ducharme: There might be a hun dred private. We definitely control the marke t in Churchill. Mr.

Lamoureux: As the Mi nister says, you are quite correct, we definitely control the market in Churchill. I am wondering if we have any idea in terms of the percentage vacancy rate compared between the private sector in Churchill and our vacancy rate in Churchill at this time. Mr. Ducharme: The O'Connor block that you asked about is 90 percent full. We have mothballed some of our un its. I cannot tell you what the private sector is up there. I can get you the details; I will try to get them for you for the next sitting. 3506

Tuesday, December 5, 1989 Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, the Mi nister says that we have mothballed some of our un its, and I think we can really start to build up a strong case in terms that the chances of our being able to sell the O'Connor block or any particular, the Tu ndra block, out to private enterprise might not be at its best opportunity at this point, that in fact we would be losing a considerable amount of taxpayers' mon ey. With this in mind, does he not feel that there is some obligation whatsoever because the numb ers of federal emplo yees have been a contributing factor to this?

Maybe the Min ister can answer in terms of, what type of federal emp loyees have we been losing up in Churchill? Are they teachers? Are they environmentalists? Does he have any idea? * (16 00) Mr. Ducharme: No, I have no idea what type of people we have been losing out of there. All I know is, to accommodate subsi dized housing was the original intent. However, we have been approached by hospitals, et cetera, to accommodate other than so that we could uti lize some of our existing units.

However, you have to remem ber the reason why you mothballed, you are comparing some units that would probably be more costly to operate than, say, the one that we might be selling. You have some of these units that are very, very expensive to heat the way they are constructed, where it would cost us more probably to rent them out and the amount-well, it costs us more to operate than the rent we get back. The private sector could maybe operate at the Tu ndra Building that you are talking about and not be interfered by our units. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, just to move on to another area.

We have- An Honourable Member: Just before you do, may I ask- Mr. Chairman: The Member for Churchill. Mr. Cowan: To sort of tidy up the Churchill issue, if the Member for lnk ster would allow me to ask a couple _ of questions, I thank him for his int erest in the Churchill situation. I am not saying this in a negative sense, I can be overly critical of some of the questions because they do demon strate a lack of awareness of some of the historical problems that have resulted in Churchill from the way in which th at ho using mar ket was structured, because it is a very complex area.

I am not certain after all of my involvement and study in the area that I fully und erstand the dynamics of that housing ma rket. I can tell the Member for lnks ter (Lamour eux) and others as well that the situation we have in Churchill now is as much historical as it is circumstantial. One has to realize that and ackno wledge that fact in order to try to develop housing policy and programs that really have the long -term desired effect, that meet the longer-term objectives.

The Mini ster ind icated I still probably have some scars or bruises on my back to show from the many meetings I have held in that community trying to deal with a restructuring of that 3507 housing market to meet some long-term objectives. I can tell him they are on my back, they are on my face, they are all over my body. I have been thoroughly beaten up in betwee n, during, after, and before elections over the issues in Churchill with respect to housing. Having gone through all of that, I think it is important to develop a long-term policy and stay the course, because the situation changes so rapidly there.

One year they are demonstrating in the centre of the communit y because they cannot obtain housing, because there just is no housing available. The threats are that they are going to be living in tents, which was an actual threat back several years ago. The next year or series of years it may well be that they are demonstrating because there are so many vacancies in the commun ity and they feel there is an unfair allocation of the buildings, an unfair allocation of the rents, an unfair allocation of the costs, unfair taxpayers' subsidies there.

That takes us back to why that sort of situation, which is probably unique to that communit y, or at least the extremes are unique to that commun ity, exists today. (Mr. Darren Praznik, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) It all comes out of the redevelopment of the community back in the 70s. One has to un derstand why redevelopment took place in that way. At that time the base was being the disbanded, was leaving, and there was a requirement for housing in the commun ity that was very urgent.

The federal Government along with the provincial Government, and this is why we had the agreement with respect to the Tundra building, went in and said, we have to do something in this communi ty that we do not generally do in other commun ities. I do not know of too many other examples where it is done. We have to establish housing stock immedi ately where it now does not exist. There was hcusing stock that was not adequate, they had to build new housing stock. The Governments, federal and provincial, involved thems elves in a very large way in establishing the housing stock in that communit y.

When they did that they skewered the market. I am one who will very strongly argue through these Estimates that we are not doing e

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-84
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 84.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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