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May 8,

RESOURCE COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North,

substitutes for Lorraine Michael, MHA for Signal Hill Quidi Vidi.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Andrew Parsons, MHA for Burgeo La Poile,

substitutes for Jim Bennett, MHA for St. Barbe.

The Committee met at 6:30 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Brazil): We are all ready to go. I want to welcome everybody to

the Resource Committee Estimates review for the Department of Advanced Education

and Skills. I want to welcome Minister King, who is filling in for Minister

Shea, his officials, and the Committee members themselves.

I would like to first start by asking the Committee if they would do

introductions and then I will go back to the minister and his officials.

MR. A. PARSONS: Andrew Parsons, MHA, Burgeo La Poile.

MR. KIRBY: Dale Kirby, the great and historic District of St. John's

North.

MS WILLIAMS: Susan Williams, Researcher.

MS PERRY: Tracey Perry, Fortune Bay Cape La Hune.

MR. CROSS: Eli Cross, Bonavista North.

Housekeeping wise, I would like to move that Mr. A. Parsons fill in as Deputy

Chair for this session.

CHAIR: So moved, that Mr. A. Parsons be the Vice-Chair of the Committee.

All those in favour, signify by saying aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed?

Motion carried.

Mr. A. Parsons is Vice-Chair.

MR. POLLARD: Kevin Pollard, MHA, Baie Verte Springdale.

MR. RUSSELL: Keith Russell, MHA, Lake Melville.

CHAIR: Back to you, Mr. Pike.

MR. DARRIN PIKE: Darrin Pike, Deputy Minister.

MR. KING: Darin King, Minister of Justice, Minister Responsible for

Labour, Government House Leader, and Acting Minister of Advanced Education and

Skills.

MR. LEWIS: David Lewis, Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, and

up until last week ADM for Corporate Services with AES.

MR. DAVID PIKE: Good morning. David Pike. I am the Director of Student

Financial Services and I am Acting Departmental Controller for this week.

MS WHEATON: Roxie Wheaton, Assistant Deputy Minister Responsible for

Service Delivery.

MR. HOGAN: Dennis Hogan, ADM for Workforce Development.

MR. REID: I am Ross Reid, Deputy Minister responsible with the provincial

Population Growth Strategy.

MS TILLEY: Jean Tilley, ADM

for Community and Social Development .

MR. GARDINER: Bob Gardiner, ADM for Advanced Studies.

MS PIERCEY: Susan Piercey. I am the Executive Assistant to Minister Shea.

MR. BONNELL: Kip Bonnell, Communications Specialist.

MR. TOMPKINS: John Tompkins, Director of Communications.

MR. CRUMMELL: Dan Crummell, Parliamentary Secretary, AES.

CHAIR: Welcome to everybody.

Before we start, I need to do a little bit of housekeeping. I ask that we get

a motion to adopt the Resource Committee continuation minutes for the Department

of Innovation, Business and Rural Development.

MR. CROSS: So moved.

CHAIR: Motioned by the Member for Bonavista North.

All those in favour, signify by saying aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed?

Motion carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Just to clarify, obviously I will direct the questions, or I would

suspect the members of the Committee will direct the questions to the minister

and the minister then can determine which official may want to answer. I ask

each member that they identify themselves and wait until their light comes on,

the first couple of questions, until the Broadcast Centre is comfortable with

the seating. It may take a second or so. That way we do not miss anything in the

recording.

Also, to start, just to note, and those who are familiar with me chairing the

Committees, I normally give twelve to fifteen minutes. If there are a few

minutes that are needed because we are finishing a train of thought in a

particular section, I will ask the member to continue and finish that section.

I do want to stress at the beginning we are on a tight time frame. We may get

ten or fifteen minutes past the 12:00 o'clock deadline to complete some of the

things. Unfortunately, due to time restrictions and the datelines on the

Estimates, we need to get this completed today.

I do ask that you keep as much as possible to the line items here under the

Estimates and be as pertinent as possible on the questions you need to ask so

you get all your questions answered, hopefully. I do think the minister has

agreed that if there are some questions after that we cannot get in this period

of time, they can be sent to the department to be assessed and answers given

back, or more information if necessary.

I would like to now call that we would start with subheading 1.1.01.

I will go right to Mr. A. Parsons.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to make this quick because we will get three hours and we will not

get extra time. I might add that I sent a list last year with forty-seven

questions to the minister in May and never got a response. So, forgive me if I

am not so inclined to send questions this year. I just have to put that out

there.

MR. KING: We are fine with that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Subhead 1.2.01, Executive Support, there is an increase in Salaries. How many

positions were added?

MR. KING: Subhead 1.2.01?

MR. A. PARSONS: Subhead 1.2.01, Executive Support.

MR. KING: What was your question again? I am sorry about that.

MR. A. PARSONS: It looks like there was a salary increase of $310,000 in

this year's Estimates from last year, from what was estimated.

MR. KING: That is from the $929,000 to the $1.239 million?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. KING: There was an increase there for the workforce development

assistant deputy minister that we announced some time ago, and there was salary

provided there for a population study division.

MR. A. PARSONS: Population study: Is that a position?

MR. KING: Yes, a salary.

MR. A. PARSONS: What is the salary?

MR. KING: What is the exact salary? $170,000, including mandatory

employment costs.

MR. A. PARSONS: $107,000?

MR. KING: $170,000.

MR. A. PARSONS: $170,000?

I noticed there is basically a general increase in all the costs in this

section, Transportation, Supplies, Purchased Services; does this all have to do

with the population study?

MR. KING: General speaking there are a couple of nuances there but

generally speaking most do apply to that.

MR. A. PARSONS: So basically two new positions added?

MR. KING: Yes, to be clear, it is two positions reflected here, but they

are not two new positions. It is one new position and one position moved into

here.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Who did the population study?

MR. KING: That would be Ross Reid. That is an ongoing piece of work.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Will there be an actual study coming out, or a report?

MR. KING: There will be work generated for government. Whether or not

there will be a report generated for the public is undetermined at this time.

MR. A. PARSONS: In terms of the department, how many core and non-core

job cuts are there in Advanced Education?

MR. KING: What I can do, Mr. Chair, if it is okay with the group, is give

you the entirety which might save you time in going through each of the

divisions. We would have had a total of ten vacant positions that disappeared,

fifty-two layoffs, for a total of sixty-two, and we had twenty retirements, for

a total of eighty-two positions. The total Budget decrease for salaries in

Advanced Education and Skills would have been approximately $6 million.

MR. A. PARSONS: So that is eighty-two positions?

MR. KING: Eighty-two.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is it possible that there is a list out there with all

these positions?

MR. KING: I can read the positions to you if you would like, sure.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there a list I can get on paper?

MR. KING: Well, once I read it into the record here this morning, you

will have it on paper through Hansard.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. KING: We have a director of planning and research position, a Program

Development Officer, and that would be from Apprenticeship and Trade

Certification, and a career development liaison officer from Career, Employment

and Youth Services.

All of the following positions would be from finance and general

administration, so there would be: a Clerk IV, a Clerk III, a Management Analyst

II, an Archives Technician II, Information Management Technician II, a second

Information Management Technician II, a third Information Management Technician

II, an Information Management Technician III, a Management Analyst I, and two

Financial Collections Officers. All of those would have been from St. John's.

We have a Senior Policy, Planning & Research Analyst from Immigration and

Multiculturalism, a Management Analyst II from Income Support, a Client Services

Officer from Poverty Reduction, three Career Development Officers, and one

Client Service Officer from the Avalon region. We have two Career Development

Liaison Officers from the Central region, a Career Development Liaison Officer

from the Labrador region, and two further Career Development Officers from the

Western region.

In addition to that, we would have had from the Student Financial Services

Division in St. John's a Manager of Financial Analysis, four Student Aid

Information Officers, an Information Management Technician II, and a Clerk IV.

As well, from the Student Loan Corporation in St. John's there is a Clerk III,

an Accountant I, two Administrative Officer I, and three financial collection

officers. From Youth and Student Services Division there would be a Senior

Policy, Planning, & Research Analyst.

As well, under contractual positions, we have a contractual position from

Institutional Services. We have three contractual positions from our Labour

Market Agreement, LMA. We have ten positions from our Labour Market Development

Agreement, LMDA. We have one position from our Opening Doors, Disability Policy

Office. We have two contractual positions from our Avalon Regional Office and we

have two contractual positions from our Central Regional Office.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are there still any vacant positions that exist right now

within the department?

MR. KING: Yes, there are still a number of vacancies that exist. Mr.

Chair, as the people would know, the department is going through a significant

restructuring and we are looking at a realignment of service delivery through

the entire department. There are a number of vacant positions that will be

filled; the hiring freeze of course has been lifted. Some of those positions had

to be realigned to suit the new roles and duties, but the number of positions

that exists today in the department along with the vacancies will not change as

a result of restructuring. It is just that there is going to be some realignment

and readjustment.

MR. A. PARSONS: Speaking of the realignment, the Noseworthy report made

eighty-seven recommendations. Will there be a timeline on the government's

response in terms of what recommendations will be implemented?

MR. KING: The Noseworthy report will be used by us, Mr. Chair, just like

any number of pieces of work that we do every single day. People behind me and

their staff are constantly involved in research, evaluation, and collecting data

to inform policy development, and we see the Noseworthy report as no different

than that: a piece of work and information that will inform us. Some of the

recommendations likely will be implemented, some may be adjusted, and some may

not be. It will be incorporated as part of our consideration of going through

the realignment of the department.

MR. A. PARSONS: I know that when we talk about the offshore, the accord

we have just been debating, there were twenty-nine recommendations and

government said: We agree with all twenty-nine; we have twenty-eight, and there

is one we cannot get. We had CYFS yesterday and there are another number of

recommendations by the Child and Youth Advocate. They have come out and said: We

agree with every one of these recommendations and we will be moving for every

one of these recommendations.

In this case, there are actually eighty-seven specific recommendations. Will

government actually come out and say we agree with X number of recommendations?

We are not going to implement X number of recommendations? It is pretty

comprehensive and specific.

MR. KING: We may, but we may not. The report will inform our decision

making. When we get to the point where we have firmed up our restructuring, at

that point the minister will decide whether it is a report that we need to

decide to say to the public that we accept some recommendations or not, or we

may just incorporate it as part of our daily work and use it to inform good

decision making.

MR. A. PARSONS: Mr. Noseworthy also suggested seventy programs within the

department be streamlined to forty-three. Is there any idea on whether this is

going to happen or not, and if so, how many job losses there will be?

MR. KING: Well, I just identified the number of job losses there will be

and I think I have said for the record there will be no further job losses as a

part of restructuring. Anything else in that report will be contemplated as part

of the overall restructuring.

MR. A. PARSONS: Has there been any movement made towards the

streamlining?

MR. KING: There has been internal work being contemplated, organizational

charts developed, and directions laid out. Not a lot of detail I can share here

because when it does come out it is going to affect people who are not currently

aware that it is going to affect them. There is a significant amount of work

being contemplated right now and being prepared to roll out that will, in our

view, not only streamline the service delivery, but make the service delivery

better for the people of the Province.

MR. A. PARSONS: I have to ask this. I know the report is submitted, but

his contract gave him some ability to stay around. Is Mr. Noseworthy still doing

any work at all for the department?

MR. KING: Not to my knowledge.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I am going to move forward to 1.2.02, Administrative Support. There is just

about a $900,000 cut to Salaries, so these positions that were cut, those were

listed in the list that you came up with?

MR. KING: That is correct.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Is there any fear that with $900,000 worth of salaries gone there will be any

negative affect on the operational activities of the department?

MR. KING: No, we do not have any fear. Like all departments, when we

contemplated reductions, we looked at areas where we felt we could save money,

change our service delivery model, and still provide the services that are

required, both internally to government and externally to the people of the

Province.

It will require, as I said, a refocusing on what we are attempting to do. The

people behind me and their staff are heavily engaged in that, but we have every

confidence that the decisions made here will not have a negative impact and that

it will allow us to continue to provide quality services to the people we serve.

MR. A. PARSONS: In terms of that, just the generalities of refocusing on

what it is we are trying to do, what is it that the department is trying to do

there? What is the core mandate and what is the refocusing where are we moving

when it comes to the department as a whole?

MR. KING: Well, it is a broad question because it is a broad department.

We encompass everything from population study and poverty reduction across the

spectrum to apprenticeship and skilled trades and Income Support and employment

development.

Generally speaking, our objective is to try to ensure that the goals of the

department align with those of the Province, which is that we want to ensure

people are as educated as they possibly can be in the Province, to avail of

every single opportunity available to them on the horizon. As you and others

have heard us talk about many times, the opportunities in Newfoundland and

Labrador today, and I just challenge members in the House to reflect back to

when you went to high school versus today and the opportunities available to

youth, there is just no comparison.

So we recognize that. We recognize that the government today, as with the

previous government, is making significant investment in skills development, and

we want to make sure that we are investing it in areas that are going to provide

individuals with opportunities for employment afterwards.

Having said all that, of course, we have made significant investment in

poverty reduction, and we want to make sure that the investments we are making

there continue to benefit the people of the Province. Questions continue to get

raised about why poverty is at a certain number when it ought to be at another

number. We recognize that there are challenges, and there are all kinds of

reasons why people drop in and out of poverty, none of the least of which is the

increase in population in Newfoundland and Labrador as a result of people moving

back here looking for opportunities. We want to make sure that we look out for

those people as best we can, and we want to make sure that the programs that we

have there are aligned to the needs of the people.

In addition to that, there is the whole segment of Income Support population

where we have people in a situation where we believe we have an opportunity to

transition them from Income Support into the workforce. Whether that is through

retraining them or whether that is providing some training because they do not

have any post-secondary education, we want to make sure the programs that the

department offers opens the doors for those individuals to avail of the

opportunities, and ultimately move them off Income Support and back into the

workforce, so that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians get the most benefit from

the employment opportunities.

MR. A. PARSONS: You just mentioned population increase. What is the

current population or what is the percentage that it has increased in, say, the

last year? Those stats must be within the department somewhere?

MR. KING: We can get it for you. We do not have it here.

MR. A. PARSONS: Can we find that sometime this morning somehow? Maybe

send a PIN to somebody I ask that not to be facetious, I am actually serious;

I would be interested to know.

MR. DARRIN PIKE: The population of Newfoundland and Labrador from the

1990s in 1991, we went from 512,000 and we are up to 512,973 individuals in

2011. That is our current population.

I read this wrong, Ross. I should give it back to you.

MR. A. PARSONS: What was that number?

MR. REID: The Province's population, according to the 2011 census

figures, is 514,536.

MR. A. PARSONS: In 1991 it was 512,000?

MR. REID: In 1991 it was 579,000.

MR. A. PARSONS: It was 579,000?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: It is 514,000 now?

MR. REID: Actually, in 1991 the population was 579,000. The population

increase between 2001 and 2011 is 0.3 per cent, from 512,000 in 2011.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

CHAIR: Mr. A. Parsons, your time is getting near to the end. Is there a

quick point or something that you need to make or can we move on?

MR. A. PARSONS: No.

CHAIR: Mr. Kirby, the next fifteen minutes is yours.

MR. KIRBY: Thanks.

I just want to go back to some of the discussion that was just had. There are

a number of vacant positions in the department at the moment. How many of those

vacant positions are you are going to have to excuse my terminology in

client services or case management positions in Income Support? How many vacant

positions do we have in that area right now?

MR. KING: Can you narrow the question to what division you are talking

about? The bulk vast of our positions would be related to client support of some

sort, whether or not it is on the apprenticeship side or

MR. KIRBY: Income Support.

MR. KING: So client services in the Income Support

MR. KIRBY: Front-line people who would be answering the telephone,

basically, or people supervising those who are (inaudible)

MR. KING: In the Income Support division?

MR. KIRBY: Yes, in Income Support, specifically.

MR. DARRIN PIKE: One of the challenges to that question is through

restructuring these vacancies that we have now are reflecting on old structure

that we are moving to a new structure. These positions will be moved as we

streamline services. I am not trying to skirt your question. I hope you

understand that.

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. DARRIN PIKE: As we move from an old structure to a new structure, the

vacancies in our new structure will be a different number than in our old

structure, so we are caught in the middle of a restructuring plan. Obviously,

when we move to the new structure we will have no vacancies and we will have

complete staffing, but right now we are about to, in the very near future with

approval, move to a new service delivery model that will help service clients

better.

Some of that change our employees are just finding out about or are not aware

of, so we do not want to get into the specifics until employees know all about

it, but we are moving on the Income Support side to the new model, or we have

improved efficiencies in our model of delivery of that service.

It is not skirting your answer in that the vacancies now are reflecting a

model that we will not exist in the near future because we will have a new

approach to service delivery when it comes to Income Support. In particular, you

mentioned around answering the telephones for Income Support clients, our

current model is based on a regional approach and we are suggesting that we are

moving to a different model in the future, pending approval from the appropriate

approval processes.

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

I guess if I had a car, the amount of fuel required for the car I have now is

far more relevant than the amount of fuel that will be required for the car that

I may have down the road. I guess I am more interested in the resources that we

have now and if you want to share the information about how it would line up in

the future model, I am interested in that as well, but I guess I am interested

to know how many vacant positions we have in those front-line positions in

Income Support at the moment. There must be a number.

CHAIR: Minister King.

MR. KING: Thank you.

We will endeavour to get that number, Mr. Chair. I do not have it directly in

front of me because, as the deputy has said, we are in a process of realigning,

and the number of the vacancies has been left vacant intentionally so that we

would not have to displace people as positions transition into new roles and

responsibilities.

In the interest of time, I will get that information for the member.

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

I just wanted to share my concern about that. Last year when this Committee

met, we exhausted three hours that we had and did not have enough time to get

through everything. I am not sure if we got through half of it. I believe you

might have been in the Chair at the time, Mr. Brazil. The minister committed to

meeting again in order to answer some of those questions. We did not have a

subsequent meeting. I wrote the minister twice before I got the information,

which, I believe, was just provided to me after the Christmas holiday.

When might I be able to expect to get that? Are we talking June or later? It

was close to a year.

MR. KING: If the past experience is negative, then I can refrain from

making commitments. I can simply say I do not have it, if that is easier. I will

endeavour to get it when I leave here. In the interest of the comment, I will

refrain from making commitments. I will simply say if I have it, I have it; if I

do not, I do not.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Another question related to this: You said there were four Student Aid

Information Officers whose positions were eliminated; is that correct?

MR. KING: Yes, that is correct.

MR. KIRBY: Does the Student Aid Division monitor the percentage of calls

answered and that sort of thing? Is there a quality assurance mechanism that is

used to understand who is getting through and with what frequency?

MR. KING: Yes, there is.

MR. KIRBY: So what is it now?

MR. KING: What is what?

MR. KIRBY: What is the percentage of calls answered, for example, if that

is the metric? If that is not the metric, what is it?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: I can get Dave Pike, the director, to answer the

question, but we do have service quality standards that we have to meet and that

ensures we respond to clients in a timely manner. Dave can elaborate a little

more on that.

MR. DAVID PIKE: At Student Financial Services, as the deputy mentioned,

we do have public service standards. We also have a telephone system that

monitors telephone calls, calls that are dropped, and calls that are answered. I

do not have that information here available right now; however, we do monitor

the call flow and it is dependent upon the time of the year. We have significant

volumes of calls, e-mails, and applications through the period August to October

that would impact our delivery, but we do have established service standards

that we attempt to answer all calls that come into our call centre.

MR. KIRBY: One would be able to ascertain then what the before and after

picture looks like? I guess that has been part of the deliberations already,

what would be the impact of eliminating these individuals who are working on the

front line with student loan borrowers?

MR. KING: Yes, absolutely.

Any budgetary decisions that we took relative to the staff changes, part of

the decision-making process would have been a contemplation of what the impact

would be on client service delivery and whether or not the increased caseload,

or workload, or telephone call load, whatever the case might be, whether or not

that could be absorbed. All of that would have been factored into the

decision-making process.

MR. KIRBY: Is that a figure I can get access to, what the percentage of

calls answered, or whatever the public service standard data was prior to this

decision?

MR. KING: It does exist, yes.

MR. KIRBY: It does exist. It is something I would to use an Access to

Information request to get?

MR. KING: It would have to be generated by the department and in order to

if I am reading what you are looking for, generating the data for past calls

would be one piece of work. The post-budget would be a different piece of work

because the model of service delivery is obviously being changed as a result of

all the staff impacts. Providing a number today versus two weeks ago would not

be as relevant maybe as two or three months down the road.

MR. KIRBY: I guess I just assumed that if you were moving to a different

level of human resources to service those calls then the department would have

already ascertained what the lay of the land was, just through its normal

quality assurance monitoring.

MR. KING: That is correct.

We would determine and factor in a whole pile of data as part of the

decision-making process. I do not have it here because I came to talk about

Estimates and that is not part of Estimates. An Estimates discussion would be to

discuss the change in the budget from last year to this year and why the figures

changed. The number of calls coming into Student Aid would not be part of that

discussion.

MR. KIRBY: It is certainly material to any decisions around changes and

the human resources required to do the government's business, which all comes

right down to these numbers and the document.

MR. KING: It would be material to the decision but not material to an

Estimates discussion. An Estimates discussion is to discuss the difference in

the Estimates from last year to this year.

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

CHAIR: I do ask that you stick to the lines. If not, we will run out of

time and you will not get a chance to ask the pertinent questions.

MR. KIRBY: Going back to what I was asking before, what is the percentage

of calls answered in Income Support then, or what do we know about whether or

not we are meeting the public service standard for customer service on Income

Support?

MR. KING: Can I ask which line in the Estimates we are referring to?

CHAIR: I do want to stress again that you seem to be all over the place

when it comes to if we could stick to a particular line item, and then if

there is a relevant question (inaudible)

MR. KIRBY: Sure, I guess it would be under Income Support, page 8.6, the

top, 3.1.01.

MR. KING: Could you repeat that? I have a job hearing, Mr. Chair.

MR. KIRBY: Page 8.6, subhead 3.1.01, Income Assistance. I assume that is

the budget line we are dealing with here.

CHAIR: Are you saying under 03, Transportation and Communications?

MR. KIRBY: I assume it comes under Allowances and Assistance, but I do

not know, maybe your Salaries for this comes out of Administrative Support on

8.4? I am not really in a position to know.

I assume it is from your Administrative Support then, your client support

people?

MR. KING: I am not sure what you are asking, if

MR. KIRBY: What is the percentage of calls answered in Income Support? So

let us say a member of the general public is there wanting to call about their,

I guess you would call it case maintenance, wanting to call an individual in

Income Support to inquire about their Income Support payment or something

related to that.

MR. KING: Right.

MR. KIRBY: What would be the percentage of calls answered? So, we were

just talking about the public service standard that you have for quality

assurance.

MR. KING: Right.

MR. KIRBY: I am interested to know what the percentage of calls answered

is.

MR. KING: I do not have that number here.

MR. KIRBY: You do not know but it does exist, does it, in the

department?

MR. KING: I imagine it exists or we could generate it.

MR. KIRBY: It is not something that is monitored on an ongoing basis?

MR. KING: Yes, it is monitored on an ongoing basis, but as I said a few

moments ago, Mr. Chair, that is not part of the Estimates discussion as far as I

am concerned. We are talking about the numbers in the budgets, and the service

delivery that we are providing is a whole different policy decision as opposed

to discussing why the Estimates for the budget of 2012-2013 is the same or

different than 2013-2014.

CHAIR: Again, I do ask that you emphasize around either increases or

decreases and concerns around the impacts versus the logistical numbers that may

or may not have any impact on it.

Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY: I guess if we had a number to start with, then we could start

having a conversation about what the impact is. My assumption is that if you

change personnel around, if you change either your delivery model and/or the

number of people who are working on the front line, then you are going to change

the frequency with which people have their calls answered when they are calling

to inquire about Income Support, student financial aid, or whatever other

programs people are calling about.

I guess we need to know what the departmental data is on it. I think there is

an admission at least that it is monitored and to some extent this was

considered when these decisions to cut positions were made.

MR. KING: I think I responded to that already.

CHAIR: Yes.

I understood the Estimates, and I chair them based on the principle that if

there is a variation in the amount of money that has been estimated after used

and put into this Budget, there would be questions around the impact it may have

and the rationale behind why those decisions were made.

Other than that, I think the minister can only answer based on the changes in

the financial bearing in the line items.

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

I will go back to Mr. Parsons.

CHAIR: I will hand it back to Mr. Parsons.

Mr. Parsons.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

Just a general question here, coming from some of the answers given to Mr.

Kirby: There is a restructuring going on in the department?

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is the fact that we are restructuring the department less

than two years after its creation an indication that it was set up improperly?

MR. KING: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: No?

We created this in the late fall of 2011; it is the spring of 2013 and we are

already going through a significant restructuring process. That would seem to me

to indicate that there are significant issues very early on into the creation.

That would seem to be something was thrown together.

Isn't that fair?

MR. KING: It is your view.

MR. A. PARSONS: I have asked this in Question Period and elsewhere. If we

created a department in the fall of 2011, why did we wait until the spring of

2012 to pay somebody $150,000 to tell us how to set the department up?

MR. KING: I do not think that would be a totally accurate statement.

Without getting into detail, the individual who wrote a report was tasked to do

a particular piece of work, but from the conceptualization of this department

there was a vision on behalf of government of where we wanted to move. I talked

a little bit about that in some of my earlier answers around ensuring that the

services we provide are aligned with what the clients ought to be receiving in

the Province and ensuring that we are maximizing the money we are spending.

The work on that really started from day one and we avail of any number of

resources, including the gentleman you referenced, at that particular point in

time to assist us in making those decisions. That process is still ongoing.

There have been changes made and there will be, as I said a moment ago, more

changes made.

MR. A. PARSONS: It just seems to me, in terms of expenditure funds and

resources, this would have been done prior to the creation of the department.

There might be less turmoil created probably internally and definitely

externally when it comes to the people involved in this process, the workers and

the people receiving the services.

I am not going to press the point because I know we are just going to hand it

back and forth, and there are other questions there. I understand that you are

the acting minister; I understand that as well, but to me, and I do not think it

is any secret my feelings on this, we created a department that was tossed

together. Now we are restructuring it already and we have this report that we

paid for, which is very extensive. It shows a number of issues in the department

a number eighty-seven recommendations, and it is just ongoing turmoil, but I

will continue.

Program Development and Planning, 1.2.03, and I guess it is somewhat of a

general question. There is a $1.2 million cut to Salaries. I do not need to know

the positions; you have given me those. In terms of moving forward, again, with

this restructuring of this department, I would imagine that policy, planning and

analysis play a big part of that. Is that going to be comprised by cutting a

very hefty portion of the people working on it?

MR. KING: I think what you can anticipate is that some of the ways we

would have carried out our policy and planning in the past will be altered and

we will find new ways to do things. We do not believe necessarily, though, it is

going to compromise our ability to do proper program planning and development.

We have taken extensive time to look at this, to look at whether or not the

number of positions there could be reduced and, as the Deputy said a few moments

ago, whether or not we could change the way in which we do work and the way

duties are assigned across, not only the department in here itself, but across

the Province.

We do not believe there will be any compromise. We believe that because of

the way we are changing service delivery and changing the focus of the

department we will be able to continue and provide good quality work.

MR. A. PARSONS: Moving forward to 2.1.01, Regional Operations, if

somebody could clarify for me. The next page I have Income Support. The people

who work in Income Support, the front-line people, are their salaries under

Regional Operations or are they under actual Income Support?

MR. KING: Regional Operations.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

How many front-line positions were eliminated, vacant or otherwise?

MR. KING: Purely in this division, you mean?

There were no front-line positions. There was a Management Analyst which

would have obviously not been front line.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are there just as many people answering phones at Income

Support as there were previously?

MR. KING: There are some vacancies and it is a little bit fluid, but

there are as many positions there as there would have been pre-Budget. There are

vacancies. Vacancies occur every day where, as you would know, somebody may be

in a front-line position, a vacancy comes up in a higher-level position, they

apply for a transfer, and so on, and there is a backfilling process. So there

are vacancies there now, but there is the same number of positions there.

We are in the process, as we said, of streamlining and changing the way we

deliver service to front-line clients away from just purely telephone to other

types of ways. So some of those positions will change, but the number of

positions that exist, I guess to cut to the chase, have not been affected.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I may be skirting back and forth between Regional Operations and Income

Support, but the reason I ask that is because, when you talk about the delivery

of service, we know that the call volumes are probably the same, but that the

call rates, when it comes to Income Support, have decreased drastically. I know

my friend asked about the numbers. Right now, you are between 25 per cent and 40

per cent of your calls being answered in Income Support. Can you clarify that?

Is that true?

MR. KING: I cannot verify that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Nobody can verify the numbers? It was actually 70 per

cent some time back three or four months ago, and it is actually now around 32

per cent.

MR. KING: Do you want to share what you are reading from?

MR. A. PARSONS: It is the same information. I just asked this. I would be

interested to know if these are accurate. There must be some numbers within the

department to show whether people are waiting up to two days to get calls

answered.

MR. KING: I cannot verify the information you are providing here.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are you getting reports within the department of

frustration from Income Support people who are not getting their calls answers

within we are not talking a day; we are talking two days.

MR. KING: I think it is fair to say that we would get frustration

expressed by any number of clients looking for service. Some of it would be

legitimate. That is not just Income Support, though. That could be student

financial assistance officers. It could be in the Apprenticeship Division.

In any number of areas, you often receive frustration from people because

either, A, they did not get the timely response they wanted and some is legit,

by the way. Some is not, but some is. In other cases, it is frustration because

they did not get the answer they want, and it is two very different issues.

I cannot verify the numbers you are providing there. If you have something

concrete you are basing that on and you want to share it, I can certainly look

into it, but I cannot verify those numbers.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am pretty sure the numbers are within the department.

If you go back to whoever tabulates these stats, they are there. You will have

the same information.

These positions that are vacant: Are they going to be filled while the

streamlining goes on or are we going to wait until the transition done?

MR. KING: The transition is an ongoing process. There are, as you know,

many facets to the department that we are trying to move around. As pieces of

the department are streamlined, we will fill positions. Some will be filled

quicker than others.

In some areas, there is more of an impact than others around how the service

is going to be delivered. As a result, there is going to be more positions that

will change. So the vacancies in some cases are what provide us flexibility to

not have to hire people, then lay people off, and go through that exercise. So

we will leave the vacancy until we can readjust the position, but the positions

will be filled immediately as the restructuring proceeds in particular

divisions.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is it true that applications in Income Support have

actually doubled in the amount of time it takes to complete them? We have gone

from anywhere from seven to ten days to fifteen days.

MR. KING: Processing time, you mean?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. KING: I cannot verify that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Has the amount of time for emergency, we will say,

applications increased from same-day service to up to two days?

MR. KING: I cannot verify that. I can say we give top priority to any

emergency applications that come in.

MR. A. PARSONS: Now, one of the things Mr. Noseworthy brought up is that

Income Support workers, case workers, should be case managing. That was one of

the things he specifically brought up. What we are hearing is that these workers

can barely answer the phone, let alone case manage.

Are there going to be any steps taken to actually make this recommendation

happen in terms of increasing front-line staff and actually field the call

volume that is coming in so they can do what Mr. Noseworthy recommended, which

was to manage cases rather than just answer the phone, or in some cases not be

able to answer the phone?

MR. KING: Yes, all of that is being factored in to the remodelling of

what these positions do and what their responsibilities are. I am not skirting

your answer because this will all become clear once we know what for certain

what we are doing and able to communicate it with employees.

I am a little hesitant knowing you are talking about front-line people who

take calls. Anybody who is listening to this is wondering, depending on my

answer, is my job at stake? So I am little hesitant around that. I think it is

suffice to say that I can confirm that any recommendations that are intended to

improve the way we deliver service to the people are going to be factored in and

acted upon.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Mr. A. Parsons. If you have one last quick comment,

your time is up and I will go back to Mr. Kirby.

Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY: Continuing along with Income Assistance, then, you are unable

to say how many positions are currently vacant in client services, case

management, or what have you, front-line positions or you are you unwilling what

they are are you unable to say it or you are unwilling to say it?

MR. KING: What was the first part of your question?

MR. KIRBY: How many vacant positions are there in front-line support

client service or case management? You are unwilling to say how many positions

are vacant or you are unable to say? Which would be the more appropriate

characterization?

MR. KING: Well, I think I answered the question very clearly. I said I am

unable to say.

MR. KIRBY: You are unable to say, and you are unable to say that because?

MR. KING: Because I do not have the number in front of me.

MR. KIRBY: Does anybody over there have the number in front of them, any

of the staff who came with you?

MR. KING: No, we do not have that data here. We came to talk about

Estimates. That would not have been factored into our discussion on Estimates.

MR. KIRBY: Sure, but you did read from a chart of personnel at the

beginning, right?

MR. KING: Which line are we talking about in Estimates now, Mr. Chair?

CHAIR: I think the minister had answered exactly what positions were now

out of the department. Is there a particular question or emphasis around one of

the line items that you (inaudible)

MR. KIRBY: So you are also unable or unwilling to say what percentage of

calls are answered in terms of service quality standards.

MR. KING: I think I also responded to that one. We have a quality

assurance model that we employ, Mr. Chair. The deputy, I think, has spoken to

this as well for the record today, that we do have standards and we expect

people to follow the standards. As I said before, I am unable to provide that

number because I do not have it.

I am not going to give a commitment because of the member's comment scolding

the previous minister. The information is available and I can certainly

ascertain to get it, but I am not making a commitment to do that because of the

opening comments.

MR. KIRBY: Does it make sense for me to follow up with Minister Shea to

inquire about these figures? Is that how I might arrive at them?

MR. KING: I cannot comment on what would make sense for you to do. That

is up to you, if you want to pursue that.

MR. KIRBY: That is not information that you are willing to make a

commitment to provide. You do not have them here with you; that is basically the

reason why.

MR. KING: I have responded to that, I think, three times.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Under 3.1.01, Income Assistance, under Revenue Provincial, there is a

number somewhere of the total number of cases, the total number of clients. Is

it possible to get that by a breakdown of those cases by age?

MR. KING: Which

section are you referring to, 3.1.01?

MR. KIRBY: Under 3.1.01, we are talking about the total amount for Income

Assistance is $222 million. I assume that is going to a number of individuals

and the department would have a breakdown of the number of cases by particular

characteristics. Is it possible to get that? The total number of clients, for

example, that would be a basic figure.

MR. KING: Just so I am clear, I am asking you the question now. You are

asking if the total number of Income Support cases

MR. KIRBY: If you have a demographic breakdown of those cases that we can

have.

MR. KING: I do not have it here, but I can get that for you.

MR. KIRBY: So that is something that we can have. Do we know if that is a

breakdown by family type as well? Whether it is single parent households or

MR. KING: Yes, it does include that.

MR. KIRBY: It does, yes.

There was a discussion at some point of a review of the Income Support act

and regulations. Is that something that is still going to happen? What is the

status of that review? Is it ongoing?

MR. KING: Did you say the regulations?

MR. KIRBY: Income Support act and regulations.

MR. KING: It is currently being looked at.

MR. KIRBY: It is currently being looked at?

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Are we expecting an announcement on that at some point in the

near future?

MR. KING: No.

MR. KIRBY: What about a common screening tool for client suitability for

employment and training? Has that been implemented at this point, or is that

part of your plan for the new world order of things in Income Support?

MR. KING: Part of our plan for the what?

MR. KIRBY: For the new model, your transformation when you get to the

other side of the Rubicon with your departmental model.

MR. KING: I am not sure I follow. I did not know we were trying to get

over a Rubicon. Maybe if you could be more clear in your question.

MR. KIRBY: After your business transformation is complete, will you have

implemented a common screening tool for client suitability for employment and

training for Income Support clients?

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: So this will be part of your announcement when you get to the

other side of your transformation?

MR. KING: I am not aware that I indicated that we are going to do an

announcement.

MR. KIRBY: You are not going to announce it?

MR. KING: I did not say we were not, but I am not aware that I said we

were either.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, I thought you said in short order or sooner or later or

something to that effect, we will know.

MR. KING: There is no indication of an announcement in that.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. So how will we know then?

MR. KING: We will let you know.

MR. KIRBY: In a Ministerial Statement, I expect.

MR. KING: I have some data here, Mr. Chair, I can share for the record. I

just wanted to make sure this is what the member was asking for. With respect to

the number of cases, we do have a breakdown between I will just give you the

numbers. It goes by single person, a couple without children, a couple with

children, single parents, and refugees.

Under single person, there was 15,974 total cases; a couple without children,

there was 2,133 cases; a couple with children, there was 1,088 cases; a single

parent, we had 4,698 cases; and we had one under the category of refugee.

With respect to the other categories that you would have asked, these are the

ones that I have available: For females twenty-one years of age and under, there

were 3,341; for males twenty-nine years of age and under, there would have been

2,199. The total for that, the total youth, as we call them here, is 5,540. For

females thirty years of age and above, there would have been 11,196; and for

males thirty years of age and above, there would have been 10,379.

The total number of cases, Mr. Chair, that we would have had, as I said the

single person, the couples with children, without children, and so on, would

have been 23,894. So by breakdown, under single persons, the number that I

quoted would have constituted 66.9 per cent of the caseload; couples without

children would have constituted 8.9 per cent of the caseload; couples with

children would have been 4.6 per cent of the caseload; and single parents would

have been 19.7 per cent of the caseload.

With respect to the total number of adults that I quoted, females twenty-nine

and under would have constituted 12.3 per cent; the males twenty-nine and under

would have constituted 8.1 per cent; females thirty years of age and older would

have constituted 41.3 per cent; and the males thirty years of age and older

would have been 38.3 per cent.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

Going down to 3.1.03, the bottom of page 8.6, Mother/Baby Nutrition

Supplement, Amount to be Voted is $389,900 and the amount budgeted for the

previous year was $489,900. That is $100,000 less for 2013. Why is it $100,000

less?

MR. KING: The budget for this category, Mr. Chair, is based on actual

trends of usage. So the budget for this year actually reflected the usage of the

past number of years.

As the minister has said in the House, if, in fact, that number changes, then

the budget will be adjusted up accordingly. The cut in the budget reflects

usage; it does not reflect a cut in the program. There is no one who is eligible

for this program, applying for this program, that would be denied service.

MR. KIRBY: So really the source of this is 3.1.03.09, Allowances and

Assistance and that figure has gone from $420,000 down to $320,000. How many

clients were supported for $420,000?

MR. KING: For the past fiscal year, that would have been 280.

MR. KIRBY: Two hundred and eighty.

MR. KING: That is an average per month.

MR. KIRBY: That is an average per month.

So would I be correct to assume that there is a projection that you have for

2013 that has a lower monthly average that you are basing this figure on, is

that what it is? It is a projection.

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: So it may or may not be correct, right?

MR. KING: That is correct. Which would be, just for information purposes,

no different than we do with Income Support clients because we are unable to

determine from one month to the next how many people will come through the door,

so that budget as well is based on a projection model.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Going down to 4.1.01, Employment Development Programs, there was $1.6 million

unspent in 2012 under Grants and Subsidies there. So in 2012 the budgeted amount

was $8,752,600 and the amount spent was $7,118,400. Is there a reason for the

million-and-a-half or so difference in the projected expenditure and the actual

expenditure?

MR. KING: The difference, Mr. Chair, in the actual and projected would

have been a result of funding that we would have budgeted notionally and

allocated to a number of groups or activities and there was no take up on the

money, so the money slipped.

MR. KIRBY: Groups or activities: Is there a list of what was not funded,

I guess?

MR. KING: I can give you a quick overview, sure.

There would have been the Random North Development Association, Bridging the

Gap program, under the Business Development Program, was notionally assigned

$800,000. There was delayed implementation in an employment transitions site,

which was about $350,000, and there was slippage in Wage Subsidy Programs due to

some changing dates of placements of about $400,000. There were a number of

instances of much smaller amounts, if you do the math, where we had provided

some funding commitments to community partners and they did not avail of all the

funds. The bulk of the $1.6 million, if you add up the three figures I just gave

you, you will get the bulk of it.

CHAIR: Mr. Kirby, if you have one last point, you can finish up.

MR. KIRBY: I think this question is relevant to here. There were

modifications to the Income Support program announced in the Budget that were

intended to enhance employment services for those recipients; is that funded

through here?

MR. KING: Not in this section.

MR. KIRBY: Not in that section?

MR. KING: No.

MR. KIRBY: So that is under 3.1.01, Income Assistance, on the previous

page at the top? Is that where the funding for that program is coming from?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: The 3.1.01 is not the

section you are asking about. The

funding that you see in that is actually our funding for Income Support clients,

the basic living allowance and all the supports that we provide Income Support

clients.

What you are referring to, which there has not been any formal announcements

on some programs, the funding would not be found in there; it would be found in

the multiple places where we are initiating new programs that we will initiate

in the near future, programs to assist Income Support clients to attach to the

labour market and the labour force. So funding for those programs would come in

a couple of other spots in the Budget, along with other skills enhancement

programs for other individuals. So 3.1.01 is not the spot that you would find

funding associated with potential new programs that would be

MR. KIRBY: So it is all over these lines, is it?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: It would not be anywhere in the 3.1.01 section; it would

be in the Labour Market Agreement funding, Labour Market Development funding,

and a number of other spots where we fund programs for individuals who attach to

the labour market. Those new programs that were referred to, there have been no

formal announcements on those initiatives yet.

MR. KIRBY: That is coming, is it? That is budgeted for here?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: Pardon me?

MR. KIRBY: It is budgeted for here in those, then, in the Labour Market

Development Agreement and the Labour Market Adjustment Programs? The funding is

provided for?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: We have notional budgets associated with the potential

new programs.

MR. KIRBY: Pardon me?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: We have budgets associated with the potential new

programs to support enhanced stability for all individuals to attach to the

labour force and a reference to increase the number of people that can move into

employment related so yes, I hope I am answering your question.

MR. KIRBY: Are those the modifications that were announced in the Budget,

in this most recent Budget, or are those more generally what you are talking

about? There are programs

MR. DARRIN PIKE: I am taking a leap to read the reference you are making

in the Budget, but I would make a leap of faith and say this is what you are

referring to in the Budget announcements about enhancing services for Income

Support and attachment to the labour force, in particular Income Support

clients.

CHAIR: Mr. Kirby, I am just going to give you thirty more seconds

(inaudible).

MR. KIRBY: Just to clarify, yes, on March 26, 2013, there was a

backgrounder sent out from Advanced Education and Skills. At the bottom of that

it says, "The Provincial Government will also be modifying the Income Support

program to improve emphasis on providing recipients with enhanced employment

services to better assist and inform their job search." The next sentence is not

relevant, so I guess that is it.

MR. KING: That is it.

MR. DARRIN PIKE: That is it, yes

MR. KIRBY: Modifications to the Income Support program; that is what we

are talking about?

MR. KING: Yes.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Kirby.

Mr. Parsons.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to go back to Income Support, just where I left off there. You

mentioned, Minister, about how you did not want people to be worrying about

their jobs and stuff. I guess where I was going with this is, if Mr. Noseworthy

is talking about putting in more of a case management aspect to it right now

with Income Support, what I am hearing is the staff are having a hard time just

keeping up with the applications for glasses or dental care, let alone the work

side of it.

Is there going to be a move made toward implementing more case management,

which to me would signify a need for more staff?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: To answer your question, you have to distinguish what

you mean by case management, what Mr. Noseworthy is referring to, and what you

would adapt or we would modify in our own thinking of what that means.

The back-end services that Income Support clients see on a daily basis or on

a monthly basis, which is to provide, if you are on Income Support, the basic

living allowances and other things, we need to enhance and improve that service.

So that is just to ensure that people who need supports because they are in a

certain situation and time of life, that they get them in a timely manner.

On a related item, our Income Support clients, we want to support movement to

the labour market. So if you want to distinguish the case management piece from

the routine is not the right word, but the normal support that we need to

provide for Income Support clients; if we are separating those two issues, then

the move in the future is to help identify and support one of the members

referred to identifying or help support Income Support clients who are ready and

able at that time in their lives to move into the labour market. We need to help

support through case management of those clients who are able to move in that

force.

So, if I separate the two issues, then I think I might have answered your

question as yes, now that I have forgotten your question.

MR. A. PARSONS: The question is: Does that not signify we need more

people rather than less?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: No, I think what it means is we have got to do things

differently. We absolutely cannot do the same things the same way with the same

number of people. So that is a whole part of the business transformation. Some

of the references in the John Noseworthy report and our own internal work is

that if we are going to change some of our business practices, there is no doubt

we cannot do the same thing we are doing now with the same number of people. If

we want to do different things, we are going to have to do things differently.

So, this whole process is about figuring out ways we can do our business with

the resources we have better. Hopefully in the next few months, then, we will

start to see that changeover, and then you will see that sense of confidence

that we are changing our business and we are responding in the way we need to do

things.

We have to do things differently. We cannot keep doing the same things that

we are doing now in the same ways we are doing it now with the same number of

people. We think we can do things differently if we change our business

practices, streamline some of our services, and optimize on scale where

possible. Then we can switch our resources to better case manage people who are

moving into the labour market.

MR. A. PARSONS: Has that training started for the staff?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: Some of the training at, I will call it, the regional

level is just starting to happen now. There were meetings as of this week, for

instance, but it is not like a one-day, one-event, drive through and you are

done type of training. This is going to take process time to move and make sure

all our staff are

MR. A. PARSONS: What I am worried about is the front-line staff who

answer calls. The call return rate is poor right now, and these are the people

facing the brunt of the angry people on the phone. I am just hoping that they

will get the supports they need because from what I gather morale is quite low.

I am just hoping that if we are moving forward, these people are going to be

given that assistance so that they can move forward.

Speaking of Income Support and the Allowances and Assistance, I believe it is

around a $6.7 million cut to assistance. How are we going to achieve this? That

is under 3.1.01.09, Allowances and Assistance.

MR. KING: Excuse me, the estimate Mr. Parsons is based on the anticipated

caseload for this year. The answer to that one is very similar to the

Mother/Baby Nutrition Supplement. That is a projected estimation of the number

of cases we will have. That number may very well be adjusted back up depending

on the cases that come in.

MR. A. PARSONS: It might seem ambitious given last year it was $233

million and it actually worked out exactly like that, so to go down to $226

million to save almost $7 million.

MR. KING: It is not necessarily going to be a savings of $6.75 million.

What we are projecting here is a reduction here of $6.75 million. Elsewhere, you

will find that we are projecting or hoping that we will reinvest some of that

into transition supports and training opportunities to transition some people

into the workforce.

MR. A. PARSONS: In the Budget $1.2 million was announced to enhance

health benefits for Income Support recipients. Would that fall under this

department or Health?

MR. KING: I think that is Health. Yes, that is Health.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

One of the press releases from last year Budget 2012, it said, "Beginning in

2007, indexed income support rates to the Consumer Price Index for a test period

of six years". So 2012, last year, would have been the sixth year. Was that

continued?

MR. KING: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: What was the reasoning?

MR. KING: We just chose not to follow through with it at that point in

time for a number of reasons. We have made significant investments in the

Province to assist low-income earners and people who are challenged, as you

would be aware being the critic in Health, the health plan, adult dental. We

have invested in the elimination of school fees, and textbooks being provided

free of charge, which are all benefits to low-income families; a student

assistance program which provides free money and interest-free loans.

We provide the enhanced earnings exemptions of 20 per cent for those who are

receiving social assistance. We provided greater allowances for eyeglasses,

exams and special diets. We have adjusted the policy to provide a greater

overlap so if they are transitioning into the workforce, they can still receive

Income Support for a greater period of time. We just did not continue the

indexing at CPI, but we do believe we provided a lot of other supports that

enhance what they are getting.

MR. A. PARSONS: You do not want to get me started on the dental plan here

today.

MR. KING: Fill your boots.

MR. A. PARSONS: The Poverty Reduction Strategy: How many people are

tasked with that strategy right now?

MR. KING: Well, it depends on what you are asking because there is some

co-ordination going on within our department, but the Poverty Reduction Strategy

is a cross-government initiative. For example, the love of your life lately, the

adult dental plan, would be by the Department of Health, but it is part of the

Poverty Reduction Strategy. The school fees and textbooks will all be

administered through the Department of Education. Our role is more of a

co-ordinating role of the whole strategy across government, but there are people

working on this strategy in every department, or almost every department.

MR. A. PARSONS: We did an ATIPP request that actually said there were

seven positions when it came to Poverty Reduction and that three of them were

vacant: the Director of Senior Policy, Planning and Research Analyst, and

Program and Policy Development Specialist. That is something we have brought up

in this House a number of times with the minister, talking about Poverty

Reduction, the goals, and how this department co-ordinates it.

Who is co-ordinating it if the Director of Senior Policy and these people who

are supposed to be involved, those positions, are not filled?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: The lead co-ordination would follow to our ADM of

Community Support Services. Any time when we have vacancies, the work that we

do, we share the work around and efficiencies it is like any organization. We

maintain the file and we keep pushing ahead.

MR. A. PARSONS: It would be fair to say that I know the work gets spread

around if you have almost half of your positions not filled. You can only

stretch so thin if you have about half of the people working on Poverty

Reduction, seeing that it does not have the same importance that it may have

had.

MR. KING: I think what is important to distinguish here is the work of

the staff you are referencing in the Department of Advanced Education and

Skills, which is to complement and support work that is going on across

departments. For example, all of the initiatives that would be included in

Poverty Reduction would not be initiatives of the Department of Advanced

Education and Skills. It is not the policy person in our department who would be

responsible for designing all of these programs.

There is a ministerial committee, which I sit on, that provides the direction

to departments on looking at initiatives that can help alleviate poverty or

support those who are living in poverty. Obviously they would include social

departments, Health, Education, Advanced Education and Skills, Justice, Women's

Policy Office. Each of these line departments and agencies would be tasked on a

regular basis with their own staff of coming up with ways that we can enhance

what we are currently doing in Poverty Reduction.

I am offering that commentary, just to be clear for the record, that the fact

that there are vacancies in the Poverty Reduction office in our department does

not, should not suggest that we are not continuing to work on poverty reduction.

These positions support the work of the ministerial committee and do other

important pieces of work and when they are vacant, other people in the

department pick up the work.

The actual on the ground development of strategies and refining of

strategies, that is work in my own department, in Justice, for example, it is

ongoing as we speak. In the Department of Education, it is ongoing as we speak.

It all feeds into this department as the co-ordinating or overseeing department.

The positions that we are talking about are positions that support the

overseeing and co-ordinating; they are not positions that are developing the

strategy.

MR. A. PARSONS: I know we are going to have different views on it. We

have half the people working on the actual co-ordination across departments to

make sure that there is a government-wide approach at this I know the front

line is there, but the people putting it all together are not there. Again, we

could go back and forth.

MR. KING: Just to be clear, what I am saying, though, is the work is

getting done. Because positions are vacant for a period of time, one should not

assume that that work is just being parked and stopped. This work is being

picked up by other people within the department. Poverty reduction has been

clearly identified by former Premier Williams and current Premier Dunderdale as

a top priority for our government.

In instances where we are challenged, whether it is one of these three vacant

positions that you referenced, we simply expect the minister and the deputy

minister to reassign resources in the department to ensure that that work

continues to get done because it is one of the highest priorities for us. The

work is getting done. The fact that the positions are vacant is a matter of

record, but it is not a fact that the work is not getting done because they are

vacant. The work would be getting done by other people.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are the positions going to be filled?

MR. KING: Any of the positions, other than the positions that I have

identified early on, any other vacancies that we have now, unless they are

affected through some re-tweaking, we will proceed to fill vacancies.

MR. A. PARSONS: Minister, I would love to get into the back and forth

with you, because I have a very divergent point of view on this, but the time

does not permit me, because I know it has been identified as a high priority,

but when

MR. KING: Well, I would appreciate hearing your views in the next

minute-and-a-half, if you would like.

MR. A. PARSONS: No, I have an hour-and-a-half to go through and there are

a lot of other issues, so I am going to continue on.

MR. KING: Okay.

MR. A. PARSONS: What is the plan over the next eight months to get the

Province to the lowest poverty rates in Canada?

MR. KING: Well, we have said from the very beginning, getting us to the

lowest poverty rates in Canada is a goal a lofty one, albeit, considering that

when we started I think we were probably the worst in Canada.

We are trying to invest in areas where we believe it will have the greatest

impact on the quality of life for people who fall below the poverty line, first

of all, to influence their quality of life. So, when we talk about things like

the adult dental plan, and the health plan, which would have been initiatives

brought forward by our government, those kinds of things influence quality of

life; because they effectively provide a service that people would not otherwise

avail of, first of all, and secondly, in some instances, like the education

investments, they put money back in people's pockets. So that is the first thing

we are investing in.

The second priority would be to provide opportunities which is back to the

bigger picture of the reorganizing of the department where people falling

below poverty can avail of educational opportunities that will qualify them to

move into the workforce and avail of some of the new opportunities that the

Province has seen in the last three or four years and that we anticipate for the

future.

So, we are going to continue to invest in the skilled trades, we are going to

continue to invest in the Income Support recipients, for example, and trying to

move some of those off that caseload through an education process and into the

workforce.

CHAIR: Okay, if we could take a ten-minute quick break.

MR. A. PARSONS: That will be added on at the end, Mr. Chair?

CHAIR: We will get to 12:20 p.m., if that is good with the minister. I

added ten when we started, waiting for the centre, and the break.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

CHAIR: At 12:20 p.m. we will conclude.

We will have a ten-minute break. Everybody be back at 10:40 p.m., please.

Recess

CHAIR: We are back at 10:40. Mr. Minister, are you ready to go forward?

Mr. Kirby, the next fifteen minutes are yours.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, thanks.

I want to pick up where I left off on the top of page 8.7, 4.1.01, Employment

Development Programs.

MR. KING: Page 8.7.

MR. KIRBY: Again, correct me if I am wrong. There is an Employment

Transitions program for single parents, that is funded from one of those lines?

Is it from Grants and Subsidies or is it from Allowances and Assistance? Grants

and Subsidies, is it?

MR. KING: That is under Grants and Subsidies, Mr. Chair.

MR. KIRBY: There are five locations right now delivering that?

MR. KING: I beg your pardon?

MR. KIRBY: Are there five locations delivering that program now?

MR. KING: Just a second.

It is three.

MR. KIRBY: Three?

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Is that a change from 2012?

MR. KING: No, there is no change right? No.

MR. KIRBY: Do you have a sense of the number of single parents who

participated in that program or are participating?

MR. KING: We do not have the numbers here, no.

MR. KIRBY: Is that something I should request?

MR. KING: Pardon?

MR. KIRBY: Is that something that can be provided upon request?

MR. KING: Yes, I think we can get that.

MR. KIRBY: The Linkages Program, does that fall under Grants and

Subsidies here?

MR. KING: Yes, it does.

MR. KIRBY: The NL Works program?

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Is there anything new going on with either of those programs

that are a result of the business transformation of the department? Are they

going to be changed?

MR. KING: No, not necessarily with those particular programs.

The transformation that you refer to would be more along the lines of support

for apprenticeship, Income Support recipients, and how to deliver those kinds of

services, but these particular programs will not be changed.

MR. KIRBY: Just out of my own curiosity, with these new programs or

approaches that you are talking about using to help Income Support clients into

the labour market, are these programs that were developed here or are these best

practices that you have looked at in other jurisdictions and decided to go with?

MR. KING: It would be, I think, fair to say a combination. We would have

done and are still doing in some areas a cross-jurisdictional review across

Canada and other jurisdictions where they would have similar circumstances that

we do. We would factor that into our own policy direction and decision making

with the department. It would be a combination of looking at best practices

elsewhere.

If your question is, would we be able to point to one change and say that

came from Alberta or another from I am not sure that we are going to end up in

that place because we might very well find things in other provinces that we

will use but we may change or tweak to suit our own demographic here. It

absolutely does include research outside the Province.

MR. KIRBY: Between the Linkages Program and the NL Works program, do you

have a sense of how many clients and how many employers are participating in

those programs at present?

MR. KING: Just give me one second there now. Under the Linkages, you are

interested in the number of

MR. KIRBY: Of clients and employers.

MR. KING: Okay.

The client number, we would have to contact the sponsors for verification,

but I can give you the number of sponsors and the names if you want them.

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. KING: We have: the Ability Employment Corporation, Alexander Bay

Terra Nova Development Association, Baie Verte Peninsula Economic Development

Association, Bay d'Espoir Community Youth Network, BAYNet Inc., the Canadian

Paraplegic Association with a number of sites, the Central Community Development

Corporation, Community Centre Alliance, Community Youth Network for the Isles of

Notre Dame Corporation, Community Youth Network in Botwood, Community Youth

Network in St. Lawrence, Employment Preparation Inc., Exploits Community

Association Inc., Exploits Valley YMCA, Fortune Bay East Development

Association, Grand Lake Centre of Economic Development, Green Bay South

Education Centre Inc., Green Bay Youth Centre Inc., Harbour Breton Community

Youth Network Inc., Humber Community YMCA, John Howard Society in St. John's,

John Howard Society in Stephenville, Lower Trinity South Regional Development

Association, Placentia Area Development Association, the Port aux Basques and

Area Chamber of Commerce, Ramea Economic Development Corporation, the Salvation

Army in Gander, Smallwood Crescent Community Centre, which would be in

Marystown, Southern Avalon Development Association, St. Barbe Development

Association, St. Mary's Bay North Development Association, Straits Development

Association, the Bay St. George South Area Development Association, the Town of

Gambo, WestRock Community Centre Inc., White Bay Central Development

Association, and Women Interested in Successful Employment with three separate.

To be clear, that is for 2012-2013, the last fiscal.

For NL Works the same thing applies. We would have to check with the sponsors

for the number of clients. The following sponsors would have been funded:

Focenco Limited, Robin Coombs, GRI Simulations Inc., Labrador Winter Games

Association, Festival 500 Inc., Happy Valley-Goose Bay SPCA, the Town Council of

Lawn, the Town of Ferryland, Way 2 Grow Child Care Centre, Innwood Properties

Limited, St. John's Status of Women Council, Newfoundland and Labrador Company

65762, Ann Davis, Bayview Groceteria, Bond Drover, Cardiology Consultants

Limited, D P Sales Ltd., Diversions Entertainment Inc., Doug Benoit (ICR

Building Solutions), Dr. Douglas Musseau Dentistry, Eastern Technical Services

Limited, Farrells Foodex Ltd. "Freshmart", Fibreglass Works Ltd, First Choice

Cabinets Ltd., Flynn's Limited, Hoi Tian Ltd., Hotel Harbour Grace, Hutchings

Contracting Ltd., Ida's Senior Home Limited, Interprint Systems Ltd., Island

Treasures, James Yick, JCR Auto Clinic Ltd., KEDS Holdings Inc.,

Keith Rumbolt , Lca Enterprises

Limited, Madison's Convenience Incorporated, Marilyn Blagdon, Matt's Auto

Service, Max Norris(C & M Mechanical), Mid Island Animal Health Centre, Natasha

Greene, Paula M. Young, Philip Meade, Pipers Department Store, Pizza Plus,

Precious Times Children's Centre, R & M Self Storage, Rivermill Lodge Ltd.,

Rodway's Printing & Office Supplies Inc., Seaview Cafe, Simmons Auto Sales &

Services Limited, Simmons Tire and Service Centre Ltd., Speedy Automotive

Limited, State of the Arts, Stellar Storm Industries Inc., the Newfoundland

Chocolate Company, Tiffany Village Inc., Victorian Manor Limited, Wee Gems

Daycare, Younger Years Day Care & Preschool, Tangles Unisex Styling, Provincial

Fitness Inc., 11134 Newfoundland Ltd (ICONS), Bast Ltd., Cre8iv Design Studio,

E.G. Kelly Ltd (Kelly's Pizza Plus), Endless Enterprises Inc., Monarc Logistics

Ltd, P & L Restaurants Inc., Tracey Dinn, Work Global Canada Inc., Royal

Canadian Legion Branch # 22, Salvation Army Thrift Store, Africana Enstyle Ltd,

Coastal Chiropractic Inc., Autism Society of Newfoundland and Labrador, Bri-mar

Management Inc., Sonrise Ministries, Labrador Investments Ltd, Lisa King, Norris

Arm Boys and Girls Club Inc, Admiral Ventures Ltd., CPZ Operators Inc.,

Jenkearle Limited, Muljack Enterprises Ltd., Wimb Foods Ltd (Quiznos Subs),

Autism Society of Newfoundland and Labrador, Evergreen Environmental Corp.,

Dynamic Air Shelters, R & L Brown Ltd (Gambo Save Easy), St. Barbe Consumer

Co-op Society, 11335 Newfoundland Limited, Central Convenience Limited, Iris

Family Video Inc., Peter Hurley of Hurley's Enterprises, Weather Shore Windows

Inc, Katherine Hayes, Brancy One Holdings Ltd., Proper Care Services Inc,

Rosie's Orchard Inn, Carter Holdings Inc., Frank Pye, Lighthouse Productions

Inc., North East Arm Ventures Inc, Salvage Bay Motel, Changjiang Restaurant, J B

K Ventures Ltd., Rising Tide Theatre Association, Town Council of Hampden, Town

of North West River, Beachside Manor Ltd., A & W (Atlantic Food Services), the

Town of Grand Falls-Windsor, 61065 Newfoundland and Labrador Inc., Flynn's

Limited, Gander Day Care Centre Ltd., Irish Loop Coffee House, Newfound Pianos,

Rosedale Manor, Steve's Service Centre Ltd

MR. KIRBY: Excuse me, Minister, perhaps in the interest of time, since we

have taken about three minutes now to read the list, maybe we could have that

tabled or I could request the document.

MR. KING: The document is actually a confidential document with other

information, but as I said I am prepared to give you the names. That is what we

are here for, or if you are happy

MR. KIRBY: Well, at the end, why don't we come back to that, if we have

time?

MR. KING: Sure.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

Moving down to 4.1.02, Labour Market Development Agreement, in the previous

year under 01, Salaries, there was about $425,000 worth of salaries unspent. Is

there a reason for that?

MR. KING: There were a number of vacant positions as a result of delays

in hirings. People left and savings would have accrued while we went through the

recruitment process.

MR. KIRBY: Moving down further to 4.1.03, Labour Market Agreement, non-EI

eligible, is it 09, Allowances and Assistance or 10, Grants and Subsidies that

includes the Apprenticeship Wage Subsidy?

MR. KING: You are asking which section?

MR. KIRBY: Yes, which one of those includes the Apprenticeship Wage

Subsidy? Is it included in one of those lines?

MR. KING: Excuse me, just one second, please.

Sorry about this, you did say 4.1.02? I just want to make sure I am correct

here.

MR. KIRBY: Line 03.

MR. KING: Oh, sorry, my apologies.

MR. KIRBY: Line 09 or 10, so Allowances and Assistance or Grants and

Subsidies; page 8.8.

MR. KING: No, the apprenticeship is not included under those particular

sections.

CHAIR: Mr. Kirby, your time is done.

Mr. A. Parsons.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Back on 2.1.01, the question I had there I noticed there was a cut from

Salaries, and we discussed that part. Now, my understanding is that there was a

Regional Manager of Corporate Services position for St. John's. It was posted

early last year, but the competition was cancelled. So I am wondering if that

was the case.

MR. KING: The very first section, I apologize.

MR. A. PARSONS: No, sorry about that 2.1.01, Client Services, under

Regional Operations.

MR. KING: Yes, okay, and your question was there was a regional manager

position

MR. A. PARSONS: Regional Manager of Corporate Services, it was posted

last year for St. John's, but the competition was cancelled, and I am just

wondering why it was cancelled.

MR. KING: That position was filled.

MR. A. PARSONS: Oh, okay. When was it filled?

OFFICIAL: About two years ago.

MR. KING: They are saying about two years ago.

MR. A. PARSONS: Two years ago? Okay, but it was posted a year ago.

MR. KING: Unless we are talking about a different do you have a copy of

the ad there?

MR. A. PARSONS: I will see if I can find it here and I will come back to

it.

MR. KING: Yes, if you could provide it to us. We might be talking about a

different position.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am going to move forward in the interest of time.

I am just wondering now - and this is under the Income Support

section 3.1.01

- when we talk about the number of people on Income Support currently, which the

number I have is 24,794, does that number factor in children and partners of the

people on Income Support?

MR. KING: Yes, if you recollect, I gave you two numbers there; one was

cases and one was adults.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. KING: Under the cases, children would be included under that.

Just hang on now; I am making sure.

MR. DARRIN PIKE: Under a case, if you are a family with children, then

you are considered a case. The number you referred to I think were cases and not

individuals. There is a different number than individuals.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. DARRIN PIKE: The minister, when he answered the question would have

referred to the number of, say, couples with children, so he gave the number. A

couple with children could have two children, could have three children, and

could have one child.

MR. A. PARSONS: Does that number include children?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: Cases only indicate a case, not how many people.

MR. KING: Yes, that is right. To be clear, I think I gave you 1,088. That

means there are 1,088 couples. Each of them may have any number of children. It

is only the case we are referencing, not the number of people.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

So there is no indication or no idea of how many children are involved?

MR. KING: Not in these numbers we provided you, no. These speak purely to

the cases or, when I gave the adult numbers, it would be the adults who actually

would have filed for assistance. It would not include children.

I cannot give you that. We are not sure that is right. I can get that for

you.

MR. A. PARSONS: I would appreciate that.

MR. KING: It looks like we might be able to generate that number. I think

there is something wrong with the number I had there. We will just make a note

here.

MR. A. PARSONS: An issue that arose under this situation is with taxi

services for people on Income Support, if people have to take taxis to their

appointments and whatnot. Are they required to take the cheapest taxi that is

available to them?

MR. KING: Did you get the question?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: I think I got the question. You are asking: Do we

require them to avail of the cheapest taxi available to them?

Certainly, our endeavour is to provide the most economical solution. We have

run into cases where we would be paying an excessive rate for a taxi service

when there were other, more economical taxi services provided. We try to make

sure we balance the needs of the client with what is economical. So we do not go

for the most expensive taxi service; we try to find a good, economical taxi

service.

MR. A. PARSONS: We had a person that was involved in a taxi business in

this Province who was unable to give these rides and the taxis being provided to

these, say, Income Support recipients were actually costing more. When you add

that up it actually costs the department more, so we did not know if that was an

issue that was looked at.

MR. KING: Thank you.

In the interest of time and confidentiality, if you could provide that to me

after I can check that out for you. Generally speaking, the policy in the city,

where there would be options, is we spread it around. There is no tender

provided, but we spread it around.

MR. A. PARSONS: It is a rural situation where the cost is much higher.

MR. KING: If you can provide it to me after, I can probably follow up on

that for you rather than here, if you do not mind.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, thank you.

I am going to move forward to 4.1.02, Labour Market Development Agreement. I

believe that under this falls Job Creation Partnerships, JCPs. Am I correct?

MR. KING: You are, yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: It is funny, and again it is no secret my feelings on

this project, which I think the fair term to talk about how it was administered

last year was horribly.

MR. KING: This is the one where you got the most in the Province last

year, just to be clear.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes, well that was the year before. I guess that is due

to the good MHA.

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am talking about the fact that the people who needed

their money actually were not getting answers back for two to three months

after. I will just give an example. I just got an e-mail from my CA this morning

while we are here, and we received a written letter from the minister's office

this morning. It came in the mail.

It said: I write in regard to your letter regarding JCP. The department is

now accepting applications under JCP for the coming year. The first application

deadline is May 7. The department Web site is now updated. Today is May 8 and

the letter was written April 24. So, I am just wondering, is there going to be

an ongoing effort to make this situation tenuous, difficult?

I go back to last year with JCPs when people and groups were putting in their

applications in the winter. Now, if they did not get them in on time, they are

out; they are cut. They were supposed to have them in and I guess they were

supposed to be rewarded the first round. The winter round was supposed to be

awarded in, I think it was, April or May and they never actually found out until

later. Then we had the summer round where they were supposed to find out in

early June and they were finding out well into August, so well past the tourism

season. Then the fall session, which was supposed to be awarded by September 1,

did not get awarded until January. So I am wondering if somebody can explain to

me what the goal is with JCP going forward.

MR. KING: Let me say, first of all, my acknowledgement of the most going

to Burgeo was not meant to reflect the work of the MHA; it was the quality of

the investment of this government in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, for the

record.

On a serious note, we share your concerns. First of all, government

recognizes the value of JCPs to the Province, not only to the clients. What I

mean by that is the individuals who get the jobs, we recognize the value of

that, but we also recognize the other value, and I have heard you say this many

times in the House and I think we are in sync on this, around small communities

who use them for tourist operators, you have community development initiatives

that occur, and all kinds of things. My district is very similar to yours, so I

understand that. So we accept that premise, first of all, the value of the JCPs.

Secondly, let me say that there is probably lots of frustration to go around

with where we have ended up with the JCP process. I am not pointing any fingers

in any direction here. We are government, and I am the minister here today, so I

will accept responsibility for that, but the goal is to fix this process and to

streamline the process in a number of ways.

One is we obviously need financial accountability in the process, so some of

the application procedures we are tweaking, and our officials are working with

community organizations and those who apply all the time to fix that up.

Secondly, we do recognize the seasonality of some of these projects, and the

fact that some of the tourism operators need them late April or early May. So

our goal, Mr. A. Parsons, I guess to be blunt about it, is to adjust it to make

it more user-friendly while ensuring accountability and to ensure, as much as

possible, the timelines for delivering the programs match up with the seasons we

live in in Newfoundland and Labrador, if I could use that phrase.

MR. A. PARSONS: So, this year the new information is out now, June to

August of this year, 2013, and the deadline was yesterday. When will these be

awarded?

MR. KING: I cannot give you a concrete date. What I can say to you,

though, is I have had discussions with officials here. The deadline was

yesterday, I have asked them to expedite the process of getting them in from the

regions over the next couple of days, and we will try to turn them around very

quickly.

I am operating at this point on the assumption that Minister Shea will still

be unavailable. If she is back, then she will pick up the ball and roll with it.

We would hope that over the next several weeks you will see activity on that

file and get it out there. We recognize the times are not where we want it to be

this year, and we are going to try to rectify that for the future, but in the

short term we have to get them out the door quickly.

MR. A. PARSONS: The other concern I have, and I will put it out there,

since the department officials are here, is that the people on the ground

administering and doing this work for you in your offices in the smaller areas

are not given any information. They are not told anything, but they are the ones

taking the calls from the groups that are applying. There is a frustration out

there that has to be figured out.

I am not allowed to call these people. I have to call Ms Piercey in the back,

and I appreciate the frustration she must feel when she has to deal with me. You

see what is going on here. The guy on the ground

MR. KING: She actually thinks you are a nice guy.

MR. A. PARSONS: Well, she is very sweet.

The fact is that the guy on the ground in the AES office in Port aux Basques

who handles the Southwest Coast, these applications are coming into him. When

they say well, what is the word; he is saying I do not know. That is a problem.

The other thing they are being told for many years that they were getting

these JCPS, year after year, there was a dependence bred on them, and then all

of a sudden the rug was pulled out from under them. They are not being told

where we are going with JCP. What is the thrust? What they are actually being

told is: Well, we cannot keep funding you forever. That is actual wording that

is being given to them. I understand that might be the sentiment within, but if

you are a volunteer group putting in the work to get there, there has to be a

better way.

I just put that out there, my frustration. Everybody knows it. It is very

public. I am just hoping we can utilize these to the best of their ability, and

get them out for the summer tourism season, which we know in many areas like

yours and mine is run by small volunteer groups that can barely turn a profit,

if any. They rely on this. They cannot plan and budget out because they do not

know who they can hire. So I just put that out there.

MR. KING: I have just a quick comment on that. I accept your commentary

on the communication piece. It is duly noted. I think it is fair to say we have

had discussions internally about that.

One of the challenges we have faced over the last number of years since the

devolution and the whole LMDA and LMA piece came to us is a changing in funding

ratios, first of all. That is a piece we have had to deal with. Secondly is the

intent of the JCPs, from the federal government's perspective. Our applying of

the JCPs has strayed maybe a little from where the intent was, because really

the intent was to support people by extending their hours of work and in topping

up their income. The side benefit, as intended by the program, was that you got

something done for the community or organization.

Mr. Chair, however, having said that, we recognize in Newfoundland and

Labrador it is really a 50-50 benefit, that many of our small rural communities

need these projects to help supplement what they are doing and getting very good

work done. I am sure you have communities where they fix their community centres

up and their parks and all that stuff.

We recognize that and we are trying to strike a balance. Your point is well

taken and I certainly give you that commitment. It is our intention to try to

fix that process and to provide some stability so people know what to expect in

the coming cycles.

MR. A. PARSONS: Perfect. I am glad to hear that.

I am going to move forward to 4.1.05, Employment Assistance Programs For

Persons with Disabilities. Would the Inclusion Strategy fall under this heading?

MR. KING: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: What heading does that fall under?

MR. KING: Program, Development and Planning. That would have been the

earlier section, right at the very beginning.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Well, I can ask the question, and we can go back if we have to. What was

spent on the Inclusion Strategy for 2012-2013?

MR. KING: Are you asking just so I am clear with respect to this the

total salaries, everything or are you looking

MR. A. PARSONS: I would say the strategy as a whole.

MR. KING: It would be about $1.117 million to be exact.

MR. A. PARSONS: What is the figure for this year? What is the budgeted

amount for strategy as a whole?

MR. KING: It is $704,000.

CHAIR: Mr. A. Parsons (inaudible)

MR. A. PARSONS: I have one final question, if I could.

CHAIR: Sure, go ahead.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under where I was, 4.1.05, with the Collation of Persons

with Disabilities for Newfoundland and Labrador, that is an issue that was out

there. This is a crowd that was given funding for accommodations and had a cut.

I am just wondering: Our understanding is that they were given assurances by the

department that they could sign a five-year lease and then the funding stopped.

MR. KING: No, that is not true.

MR. A. PARSONS: Nobody within that department had a meeting with the

Collation of Persons with Disabilities and said you can go ahead and sign a

five-year lease?

MR. KING: Not to my knowledge and not to my deputy's knowledge, but we

can follow up. If you have any info you can provide us to assist us in going to

look, we will certainly check it out for you.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am hesitant to say the name.

MR. KING: You can provide it off the record if you want.

MR. A. PARSONS: That is my understanding which is one of the reasons they

were so upset because I know it is not just funding from AES, it is funding from

Health as well, and they were given the assurance by the department to go and

that is why they signed the five-year lease.

MR. KING: To our knowledge, nobody with any authority to provide a

commitment on behalf of government would have done that. For the record, if you

want to speak to me privately, if there is something I can follow up on, because

I do not want to mislead you, I can only say to the best of our knowledge nobody

with any authority to do that would have done it on behalf of government.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY: Thanks.

Along the same lines, there was a vehicle modification grant that was

announced as part of the Inclusion Strategy. Was that paid out in 2012-2013?

People received notification about receiving grants under that program.

MR. KING: You are correct. The vehicle modification program was a program

announced under the strategy. One hundred per cent of the applications received

would have been approved and a portion of that would have been out. It is over a

two-year period, and that is purely cash flow, people getting the work done and

so on. I think upwards of 80 per cent would have been out.

MR. KIRBY: I have not heard anything unless I was not paying attention,

which is possible. I have not heard any public announcement. Is there going to

be a public announcement from the minister soon about that? I get inquiries from

people saying: What is going on with this? Obviously, if 100 per cent of the

individuals who applied were funded, then I am not getting calls from those

people. I have had inquiries from members of the public saying: What is going on

with the vehicle modification program?

There was also somebody who was after the deadline, so I was not able to say

one way or the other. Sometimes it is difficult to be able to get this

information. So is there going to be a public announcement?

MR. KING: No, there will not be a public announcement. When we announced

this program last year, it was announced as a pilot to be paid out over two

years. We have allocated the full, 100 per cent funding that was allocated

within the budget for that program. We are now doing a reassessment with further

decisions to come.

MR. KIRBY: I want to go back where I was before. I was asking where the

Apprenticeship Wage Subsidy was. So now I know it is not in 4.1.03.

MR. KING: It is 7.1.01.

MR. KIRBY: So that is under Apprenticeship and Trades Certification. Is

that under Grants and Subsidies there?

MR. KING: Yes, it is.

MR. KIRBY: At risk of asking for another list of things, I wonder, could

we have perhaps a number, a total number, of clients and employers who are

participants in that? Can we have a total global figure?

MR. KING: You do not want the full list?

MR. KIRBY: I would just like to know the total number, that would be fine

for now, in the interest of time.

MR. KING: I do not have it here, but I will

MR. KIRBY: You do not have it?

MR. KING: I will get it for you.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MR. KING: I do not have it in front of me, but I will get it for you.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Now, I do not want to ask you questions that you are not able to answer any

further, but obviously there has been an awful lot of discussion about Adult

Basic Education, both in the House of Assembly and elsewhere. I have quite a

number of outstanding questions about that, and I get contacts from people, as I

said yesterday in the House, and basically on a daily basis, including this

morning again. One of things that are most worrisome to me and to my colleague

Gerry Rogers she is the critic for Health and Community Services is the

program, and you folks may know more about this than I do, but I understand it

was offered on Waterford Bridge Road, I believe, in co-operation with Eastern

Health.

Eastern Health provided the space for and I do now know if it was more than

a couple of dozens seats, but the staff were funded through a grant in aid from

the College of the North Atlantic. I understand that would be within the College

of the North Atlantic's own budget, but it seems to me, even if government is

proceeding with the decision to privatize ABE we can put our differences aside

on that part of it I am just wondering if there is any way possible to salvage

that program, because that was really tailored or people who have mental health

issues. I think we agree that that population needs special attention. I am just

wondering if there has been any sort of rethink on saving that part of it,

because if there is anything we can save, I think that we should really, really

try to save that.

MR. KING: Yes, a very good question. It is our intention to have that

program continue. At this point in time the plan is to develop a tender for

specifications that will match exactly what we are doing now. So, the program

will continue; it just may be through another provider. Your point is well

taken, and we have actually had a discussion yesterday on that same issue. So,

the best I can say to you is that at this point it is out of the college, with

someone else having to provide it, at the same level of expectation, the same

curriculum, and the same supports.

We will consider your views strongly as we look at whether or not we can find

a suitable replacement. I will say that much to you. It is on the radar; I

appreciate you raising it. I raised it myself with the deputy a couple of days

ago. We understand the complexities of that situation versus some others.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, that is reassuring. We will look for developments in

that. I am glad you are taking that seriously.

I know, Minister, you are acting here in this capacity today. As somebody who

has worked with a lot of enrolment figures and stuff in the past in my own

professional academic work, I know it is oftentimes not the minister who is

producing those projections.

I am interested to understand some of the figures that had been publicly made

available about this. If they are figures that are provided by College of the

North Atlantic I can certainly go to them and ask for information. There was one

figure that was quoted, and I assume these are numbers that fed into the

decision to go in this new direction with Adult Basic Education.

There was a figure that was offered up, I believe it was the average cost of

Adult Basic Education, I think the person said in the other Atlantic Provinces,

so we can safely say the Maritime Provinces that the average cost, I am not

sure if it was $2,100 or $2,400. I have heard a number of different figures. I

am wondering what the source of that is. The Maritime Provinces Higher Education

Commission would have data like that, but I am not aware that they provided that

to the Department of Advanced Education and Skills.

MR. DARRIN PIKE: On the jurisdictional data, the information would have

came either directly from the jurisdiction, for example, we ask them for their

cost per student and they provided it directly, so from government to

government; or through Council of Ministers of Education, Canada, CMEC had data

on some of the jurisdictions. The ones that they did not have the data on we

contacted jurisdictions directly to ask them that question

MR. KIRBY: Do you have a figure there for the average cost in Nova Scotia

for example?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: What is the figure?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: The average cost per student in Nova Scotia provided to

us was $2,375.

MR. KIRBY: Two thousand, three hundred and seventy-five dollars.

Are you aware of whom the provider would be there?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: No, I would have to check.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

There were a number of different figures that were discussed in the public

airwaves and the House of Assembly regarding the delivery here. The $9,413

figure: Is that a figure that was worked up by the College of the North Atlantic

and provided, or is that a figure that takes in a number of different things

that were worked up by the Department of Advanced Education and Skills?

MR. KING: That figure would have been developed by the department.

MR. KIRBY: By the department?

MR. KING: By the department, based on the financial assistance provided

to the college for Adult Basic Education.

MR. KIRBY: To the college, so not to individuals, that just includes

basically your portion of the grant in aid to the college?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: Any of the numbers, when you talk about ABE, it is split

in two ways: funding to be provided to the individual, and funding that you

provide for programming. Any comparison would be funding for programming for the

individuals.

For instance, many of our clients are receiving funding for living expenses.

That would not be included. That would not be included in the comparison data

because it would not be relevant. This is the programming cost of the College of

the North Atlantic delivering the program.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, I see what you are saying.

MR. DARRIN PIKE: For the individuals.

MR. KIRBY: For the seat itself, not for any other supplement income or

MR. DARRIN PIKE: It is for how many people it is like a classroom

environment; how much is it costing you to deliver that program to the number of

students in your class.

MR. KING: If I could be clear, I think I know what you are asking.

That would be money provided directly to the college to offer the program, so

pay instructors and other costs. It would not include any funding that

individuals would have picked up to support them in going to college.

Is that what you are asking?

MR. KIRBY: Sure, but was it the practice that the college gave government

a block seat purchase figure and then you said, well, we have X number of

students, and you divided the block seat purchase figure by the number of

students and you arrived at this figure; or did the college say these seats cost

$9,413 a piece?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: We block fund the college and then we figure out how

many students are enrolled. It is like anything we give you $10,000 to do

something and if you have two students, it is costing you $5,000 per student; if

you have four students, it is costing you $2,500 per student, but we gave you

$10,000 to deliver the program. This would be the block funding that we have

given the college to deliver the program and the number of students enrolled in

the program to figure out the cost per student.

So, the model was consistently applied in comparisons because you could

come up with different models. As long as you are consistent in applying the

model when you are doing a comparison, then you are probably on fair ground.

MR. KIRBY: When you refer to the block funding, are you referring to the

block of funding provided for all programs?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: We have always given a block of funding for ABE delivery

in the college.

MR. KIRBY: Specifically?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: Specifically.

MR. KING: Broken out they get block funding overall, but within the

block there would be break outs for various categories, so ABE would have been

broken out as a piece of the overall block that they received.

MR. KIRBY: How long has that been the practice for? Is that just since

the advent of the provincial college system, or does that date back prior to

that? Does anybody know?

MR. KING: It predates us.

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

I guess the one thing that I wanted to question about is on data anomalies.

When you are talking about success figures, so enrolment, retention and

graduation, I am wondering if there was any thought given to whether or not

there are differences in the population at the three different service providers

that were involved: the College of the North Atlantic, the not-for-profits, and

the private sector colleges. Because if you look at the Noseworthy report, for

example, it suggests that, as least it suggests to me that, ABE Levels II and

III were predominantly delivered by the College of the North Atlantic. Is that

correct, or at least the seats that were being purchased by AES?

MR. DARRIN PIKE: If you asking, most of the students in the College of

the North Atlantic would have been in Level II and Level III, mostly in Level

III.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, but there were virtually none or a very small number of

students doing II or III at a private career college.

MR. DARRIN PIKE: No, there are three groups: the College of the North

Atlantic, community-based organizations, and private training institutions. The

community-based organizations primarily do ABE Level I; the private training

institutions almost 100 per cent do Level II and Level III; and the College of

the North Atlantic does mostly Level II and Level III, with a very, very small

proportion of Level I students. The community groups would be the one that is an

anomaly in the sense they are pretty well 100 per cent, except for one group,

that does Level I.

CHAIR: Mr. Kirby, if you are finished there or if you one last point, I

will go back to Mr. A. Parsons.

MR. KIRBY: No, that is fine. I will come back to this.

CHAIR: Fair enough.

Mr. A. Parsons.

MR. A. PARSONS: If I could start on 7.1.02, Adult Learning and Literacy.

MR. KING: Mr. Kirby, are you going to come back to this one? Okay,

thanks; I just want to make sure because there is some information I may be able

to add to that.

Sorry, which number?

MR. A. PARSONS: Subhead 7.1.02, Adult Learning and Literacy, and I am

just looking at lines 01 and 10, Salaries and then Grants and Subsidies. We see

almost a 75 per cent cut in salary, but then I am wondering if that is

counteracted by the very significant jump in Grants and Subsidies. I am just

wondering what the plan is there.

MR. KING: The reduction in Salaries would have been reflected in the

numbers and positions I gave you earlier when I gave the numbers. Which

section

was it?

MR. A. PARSONS:

Section 10.

MR. KING: The jump here in

section 10, Grants, from $2.4 million to $4.7

million, there is funding increase there to factor in the tender awarding for

ABE.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. So basically, the people who were cut were in the

department.

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: They are not CNA employees, per se?

MR. KING: No, departmental.

MR. A. PARSONS: That is a pretty drastic change here. Seventy-five per

cent of your salary is gone. We are taking an extra two-point-something million

and putting it into this is for the private providers of ABE, whatever they

happen to be.

Is there an RFP coming on that?

MR. KING: Yes, an RFP or a tender. We are not sure how that will look,

but yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: What is the timeline?

MR. KING: We have been meeting on it this week, so I expect it is going

to be out very, very soon.

MR. A. PARSONS: I hate to belabour the point but are we talking May

month, June month, if you had to guess right now based on just where you are

right now?

MR. KING: What is the date of today?

MR. A. PARSONS: May 8.

MR. KING: It will be May.

MR. A. PARSONS: It will be May? Okay.

It is my understanding, what I have been hearing, let's put it out there,

that the RFP might start going with ABE in sort of a regional thing where the

provider would get on providing for the region as opposed to a specific site.

Right now, we know ABE has gone from the college in Port aux Basques,

Stephenville, Corner Brook or wherever. Is that what it is looking like right

now, that somebody will get on at a region?

MR. KING: Our focus is going to be ensuring those who are part of the

college program are able to transition out into other facilities. In areas where

there are no other facilities and I stand to be corrected, but I think St.

Anthony might be an example t hen the RFP or the tender will factor in,

ensuring we have a provider to go in there to deliver the service; but it is not

our intention or focus to go in and, say, if you want to take the region of

Stephenville and Port aux Basques and say that we are changing the entire

region, so those who are there now in the private setting may be impacted

negatively by it.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. KING: It is mainly to transition out those people who are in the

college setting. Certainly, we are going to be watching this closely from a

fiscal perspective and make sure that the tuitions and all that sort of stuff

are monitored.

The primary focus of the RFP or tender will be for those students who will

come now out of the college setting, ensuring that they have another setting

they can move into.

MR. A. PARSONS: In that same area?

MR. KING: Right.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. KING: I think the minister has been very clear that any location

where ABE is offered now to the college we will ensure a provider is there.

I do not recollect I apologize, Port aux Basques but if there happen not

to be anyone there, we will ensure that there will now be someone going in to

provide that course.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

Hansard could correct me if I am wrong, but I actually think the Premier

might have said there would be more places.

MR. KING: Yes, that is our hope.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, perfect. Well, let's hope for the best.

I am just wondering: Do you have stats there on how many ABE students we have

at the three different providers? How many are at CNA, how many in private

institutions, and how many in the non-profits?

MR. KING: You asked for the number of students, right?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes, ABE students.

MR. KING: I can give you some numbers.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. KING: The most recent we have would have been November 2012. I just

want to offer you the qualification that if you go check today, they may be up

or down.

MR. A. PARSONS: That is fair.

MR. KING: Students in ABE come and go as you know, but at College of the

North Atlantic, we have

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. KING: Sorry, I am reading the wrong numbers. Thank you.

College of the North Atlantic has 800, the community-based organizations have

251, and the private training institutions have 981. That may actually speak to

Mr. Kirby's previous question, if I was reading him right. I was not sure. I

think he was hitting on what percentage of students was in the privates versus

the college. I am not sure if I read you right, but less than 50 per cent would

be in the college versus the other two groups.

MR. A. PARSONS: So what we are saying basically is there are roughly I

know it is impossible to get the numbers, and I appreciate that 800 ABE

students at the college. How many of these were Income Support?

MR. KING: We do not have the number with us, but we can get it for you.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I come back to, because this is one thing that has been tossed out, this

graduation rate. I believe all of the Income Support ABE students have to go to

the college. I am correct when I say that, right?

MR. KING: Almost; there are some exceptions in the Province if there was

a private college in a community and the College of the North Atlantic was a

fair distance away. We have made some exceptions to allow that student to stay

in their home community.

MR. A. PARSONS: So the vast majority, we will say.

MR. KING: Yes, absolutely.

MR. A. PARSONS: The number has been tossed out that the graduation rate

at CNA is 11 per cent lower than at the private colleges. One thing that we have

to acknowledge, and it was acknowledged in the White Paper, is there are more

barriers for Income Support students when it comes to Adult Basic Education. So

I was wondering if that was taken into account when this whole study was done.

Sometimes, whether it was intentional or not, the commentary made publicly by

various members was that we are paying at CNA and the graduation rate is lower,

which many people working at the college took offence to because it sort of took

away from their work. Again, I say that I do not think people tried it

intentionally, but it was there. The fact is Income Support students who had the

barriers recognised were there, so I am wondering if that was factored into the

decision.

MR. KING: I think it is fair to say it was factored in. Certainly, I

would apologize if there was any misrepresentation on behalf of government by

anyone to characterize any individual or any instructor in a negative way. That

certainly was never the intent in any discussions that anybody representing

government from the Premier on down would have had. That was certainly never the

intent. I would apologize if that is how it was received. We recognize the

quality of the work that is provided by the college, as you would know. There

are great people there doing great work.

Our shift of the ABE into a new model was not about what they are doing, and

it was not about the Income Support individuals in general. It was about finding

what we believe to be a more efficient way to deliver the same program and same

service.

It is our full intention that none of our Income Support recipients, who, as

you referenced, sometimes face barriers, will be disadvantaged in this process.

That is a commitment I think the Premier herself has made. We will ensure that

the same programs are delivered in the same communities now, with an intention

that as more privates potentially get involved in this, or community-based

organizations, there may be further expansion into other communities. Our goal

is, if anything, to make it easier and more accessible for these people.

MR. A. PARSONS: No, that is the thing, and maybe it comes down to the

speaking notes that were given out. It was almost used as, well, the graduation

rate is lower at the college. I do not think the people understood maybe some of

the reasons why the graduation rate may have been lower. I just put that out and

there have been other reasons.

Mr. Noseworthy says that if an Income Support seat is instead filled by an

LMDA student, the department pays for the seat again and at a higher rate. Can

someone explain that to me?

MR. KING: If a seat at the college is filled by an LMDA student

MR. A. PARSONS: An Income Support seat.

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Advanced Education pays for the seat and at a higher

rate.

MR. KING: Yes, you are right. We pay the tuition directly to the college

through block funding for Income Support recipients. If someone chooses to

avail, through the LMDA, of support to go back to school, the rate is higher,

quite simply, and we do pay that.

MR. A. PARSONS: So when we toss out the numbers of why it costs more to

go to CNA, this is one of the reasons?

MR. KING: Yes, two comments to that: one would be generally when we do up

our cost to deliver, it would not have factored those in; it would have factored

in purely and for the most

part Income Support recipients. The number, as a

point of interest, would be very small: less than 10 per cent of ABE students at

the co