Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 36A (39th Legislature, 2nd Session)

39-2-36a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LX No. 36A – 10 a.m., Tuesday, May 6, 2008 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1675 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 6, 2008 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYER House Business Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Not a privilege, Mr. Speaker. Whew. It's House business. Mr. Speaker: On House business. The honourable Government House Leader, on House business. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, just to clarify the Estimates schedule, this afternoon in the Chamber following Intergovernmental Affairs will be Competitiveness, Training, rather than Aboriginal and Northern Affairs that I believe had been indicated yesterday. [interjection] No?

So did I correct something that wasn't in error? [interjection] For Friday. [interjection] Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on House business? Mr. Chomiak: Would you please canvass the House to see if there's agreement for the Estimates sequence to be changed so that the Estimates for the Department of Competitiveness, Training and Trade will be considered in the Chamber, with this change to apply permanently; that is, the change would be subsequent to the matter that's in the Chamber now. Then I'll fix everything else later. Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement for the Estimates sequence to be changed so that Estimates for the Department of Competitiveness, Training and Trade will be considered ahead of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs in the Chamber, with this change to apply permanently? [Agreed] Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, House. ORDERS OF THE DAY PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS SECOND READINGS–PUBLIC BILLS Bill 200–The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the MLA for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux), that Bill 200, The Waste Reduction and Preventi on Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la réduction du volume et de la production des déchets, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion agreed to. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, this bill will ban the use of plastic checkout bags as of January 1, 2009, in Manitoba. This is a proven, effective measure to deal with a significant environmental problem. It is already in effect in places like Leaf Rapids, and it has been well accepted. Manitobans are ready to move on this issue and we hope the government is also ready to move. I want to thank the hundreds and hundreds of people who have signed our petitions.

I want to thank the students from Cecil Rhodes who are here and their teacher, Andrea Powell, for all the effort they have made toward a ban on plastic bags. I also want to salute the students for the award-winning video that they've produced and congratulate them on their efforts. Let me quote a little bit from some of the petitions that people have commented on. From James Cotton: If the Premier (Mr. Doer) cares about the environment, he will support this bill. From another: If a grocery mogul like Galen Weston gets it, why doesn't the Premier?

Get with the 21st century, yesterday's NDP, and that means including the MLA for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer). From Bryan Mintenko: Corporations need to be held accountable for the amount of pollution and waste they produce in the name of profit and greed. Plastic bags, as well as n on-recyclable packaging, needs to be banned by governments around the world. This is just one small step toward the environmental revolution that we desperately need. From Frank Goodon: Any country in its right mind would be switching to biodegradable bags. Keep our province clean for future generations.

From Peter Coroma: Let's join the MLA for River Heights to remove one polluting agent from the equation of our earth's degradation. One by one, we will continue to cleanse our earth. Congratulations for introducing this bill.

1676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 From Marvin Krawec: Banning the plastic bag will help clean up some of the debris that's seen everywhere. It's such an unsightly appearance. If we claim to be concerned about the environment, let's not delay. From Tracy Dufault: Plastic bags are not necessary. There are alternatives to this. I myself use the cloth bags and I'm doing my part. I expect government to do the same. From Heather Howdle: I think it's time we all recognize that the negative impact of these plastic bags outweighs any convenience they've provided.

We can adjust to using reusable cloth bags or backpacks or recycling containers to pack our groceries. I hope we're successful in changing this. And the list goes on and on. From Stephen Berd: Plastic bags are a huge waste of energy to produce and litter the landscape. They are not biodegradable, so bags which are buried with garbage and other materials have a lifespan reaching a few centuries. It's time to enact legislation which will reduce the use of them and to promote the use of multiple-use bags, non-plastic.

From Hannon Bell: Banning the plastic bag is a good and moral thing to do for the environment and I applaud the initiative in bringing this bill forward. * (10:10) I can quote many more, but let me, in the short time allotted, speak to 10 major reasons to support this bill. First, plastic bags are unsightly. Hundreds of millions of plastic bags end up in our landfill sites every year. Far too many plastic bags end up blowing all over the landscape of Manitoba, and they are a blight on our beautiful province. My friend, Dennis Dempsey, talked to me about a plastic bag which was in a tree.

It stayed there for three years before it blew down. The Minister of Tourism (Mr. Robinson) for our province should be front and centre with me to campaign to ban plastic bags in Manitoba. I look for support from the Minister of Tourism, and I hope he speaks positively on this bill today. Second, banning plastic bags will help with forward-thinking economic development in Manitoba, economic development that is based on environmentally sound approaches replacing plastic bags using petroleum products from Alberta with cloth bags or recyclable bags made from agricultural products like cornstarch grown on our farms.

The Minister for Competitiveness, Training and Trade (Mr. Swan), the Minister for Science, Technology, Energy and Mines (Mr. Rondeau) and the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives (Ms. Wowchuk) should all be lining up in support of this bill, to ban plastic bags in Manitoba. Indeed it is good for the Finance Minister because we will stimulate activity in making cloth bags and biodegradable bags here. We will employ more Manitobans. The NDP have it wrong trying to put an NDP tax, another tax on if they're thinking of putting a tax on. They should just join us and ban the plastic bags.

Third, this initiative is good for our health. The breakdown products from plastic bags are toxic and are not good for health or the environment. We don't want to have to clean them up later on because this government delayed. Let's prevent future health problems. It's good for the environment. The Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers), if he's doing his job, should be front and centre behind our efforts, our Liberal efforts and the efforts of many, many Manitobans to ban plastic bags in Manitoba. This is a small step, but it is a giant step because it's very significant and it will make a big difference.

Fifthly, it is good for education in Manitoba. It is terrible if you have a province which is talking about being positive on the environment but doesn't support action which supports students and others in our schools who are front and centre in championing environmental causes. So we expect the Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson) to be front and centre in supporting this bill. It is a proven approach. Banning plastic bags has worked in Leaf Rapids. People like it. I've been to Leaf Rapids after the plastic ban. There are no more plastic bags all over Leaf Rapids.

It's time to make a difference all over Manitoba and ban the unsightly plastic bags. We should be the leading province in Canada, and we can be if we ban plastic bags and move to support this bill today. An NDP delay will put us behind. Seventh, if the NDP delay it will put us behind China. What a terrible thing, to be behind that

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1677 environmental powerhouse, China. You know, we need to be out in front. We need to be ahead. I'm told that some in the media gallery are going to be following me around to make sure that I'm not using any plastic bags when I go to the grocery store. I have to admit, I'm doing better. Occasionally I forget, but if we have a plastic bag ban, then we won't have to try and remember because all of us will be using alternatives all the time. And the tenth reason is that students around the province will endorse what we're doing.

We have the Cecil Rhodes students here today. They are excited about moving Manitoba forward and banning plastic bags in Manitoba. We hope that the NDP will be supportive of our efforts and our initiative to ban plastic bags as of January 1, 2009. The NDP want an amendment to change the date, well, let's negotiate that, but let's move today and support a ban on plastic bags for all of Manitoba. Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr.

Speaker, I'm really pleased to stand up following the Member for River Heights with his David Letterman-style approach to the 10 best reasons to do a ban in Manitoba on plastic bags. This may sound strange for a politician from this side of the House to say to that side of the House, but I want to thank him for bringing this forward. I mean I admire the ability of the Member for River He ights to put his finger on an issue that I think is an important one.

I admire his ability to communicate that to students in the gallery from Cecil Rhodes School and not just Cecil Rhodes School, but many schools around this province in my own constituency who are very concerned about the environment, who are very concerned about the decisions we make in this Legislature that have an impact on Mother Earth. I just want to take one quick second, when I was a school principal in Rorketon School during the time of the Rio conference in 1991, a group of grade 8s came to me and said, we want to start a kids for saving Earth club. I became their adviser.

First thing I realized, and I think we all need to realize in here, is that those kids in that grade 8 class, much like the kids at the Cecil Rhodes School probably know more about the environment than any of us in this building, and more importantly, they will be the ones that will be making decisions in this very Chamber some day when it comes to the environment, when it comes to protecting our resources, whether they be water, whether they be the air, whether they be land resources, whatever those environmental decisions that are coming forward, I think I'm very confident that students that I see today in our public school system and students of the age of the class that are here today from Cecil Rhodes, I'm real confident they'll make good decisions.

Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair That means that we have to make good decisions, not just superficial decisions, but very good decisions that we can implement. This isn't such a bad idea that we're talking about today. What we need to do is we need to take this idea and we need to make it work. Wh at I see here from the Member for River Heights is a good start. What I see here is an ability, an opportunity for us to take an idea and implement it. What's not here, what I must explain, what's not here, is an implementation strategy.

How do you actually make this ban, whatever that ban looks like, how do you make it work? The Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) quite correctly has pointed out that there are a number of different bans around the world. He quite slyly put forward the option of China in this House. I want to say he put forward the example of Leaf Rapids, and I want to put on the record, as I have in the past very clearly, the respect that I have for the mayor and council at Leaf Rapids for making that kind of a courageous decision and moving forward with a plan to implement that courageous decision.

It's not quite good enough just to get that first little bit done, and kudos to the Member for River Heights for taking that first step.

But the biggest part of this needs to be the implementation of a ban of some sort in our great province, and we're working on that. * (10:20) Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to offer to the Member for River Heights to work together with us on that because, I think, without an implementation plan, without a comprehensive view, not just of plastic bags, I think the Member for River Heights would agree with me in saying that there are a lot more waste streams in addition to plastic bags that we need to be serious about in this province.

We will be coming forward with a regulation in terms of household hazardous waste, all that stuff that's collecting in people's basements, collecting in the shed out at the back. We need to move forward

1678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 on that, too. We need to move forward in terms of electronic waste. I know that the Member for River Heights and others in this Chamber understand that we just can't do only plastic bags, that we have to be moving forward on those other things that could damage our environment.

What we've been saying all along is that we need to have a comprehensive plan that we work with industry on, so that industry can take ownership of the stuff that they produce, right from day one right through to the very end of the life cycle of that product, so that it's not all collecting in our landfills, becoming a hassle for municipalities and a threat to our environment. I'm offering an opportunity here for the Member for River Heights to actively participate in expanding from just plastic bags, which are important, which I do agree with the Member for River Heights that we have to have action on.

We have to figure out what we're going to do with plastic bags. There's a little churchyard right across from our house. My six-year-old is learning to ride his bike and we go there every evening. I'm getting tired of pulling plastic bags out of the trees around that little churchyard parking lot. I'm getting tired of taking them out, but I dutifully pull them out of the trees, the ones I can reach anyway, stick them in my pocket and I take them home. [interjection] I'm a retriever, you bet. I don't mind doing that. We all should be doing that.

But we need to deal with preventing those plastic bags from being blown up into those trees in the first place. I think we all get that. A ban is a small, small first step, whatever that ban may look like. What we need to talk about, all of us together, is how we make that ban work. What is the implementation plan? How do we do that? We can talk about if China can do it, we can do it, all that stuff; that's fine. I'm going to offer the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) a real opportunity to make this work, not just throw it out there and say we have no plan to do it.

I'm saying we need to have an implementation strategy. We need to have a plan to do it. My suggestion to the member would be to defer this bill, defer this bill to such a time in which we can put together that plan to make it work. I'm not interested in just getting the headlines. I'll leave that to somebody else. That may sound strange to some of the old-time politicians over there, but, Madam Deputy Speaker, the NDP gives thumbs up to a plan that will lead to a ban on plastic bags.

We need to have a strategy in place to implement exactly what the Member for River Heights is talking about, or, really, there's no point in going forward then. It's not good enough just to say let's do a ban. That's not good enough. I want to know what it is, how it is that we can actually do that. Th at's what I'm offering to the members across the way. Actually, the Member for River Heights, quite correctly in his speech, offered a bit of common ground here when he said to us on this side, we could negotiate over the date. He very clearly said that.

It seems to me that he very clearly is pragmatic enough to believe that we can work together on this to make it come forward. If we can change the date that we start to implement, then I'm sure that there are ways that we can work out a plan to actually get this done. I don't want this to just stay here as words floating around in the Chamber. I think we owe it to the Cecil Rhodes kids. I think we owe it to the kids in all of the schools around Manitoba to not just pass something here and then let it die. I think we have to have, in all honesty, a plan to make this work.

Plastic bags are a very, very, very small part of the waste stream that we need to deal with. It's an important part but it's a small part when you look at all of the rest of the items that we collect in our blue boxes, when you look at the electronic waste and the hazardous waste. We're going to do the whole comprehensive package. We're going to get there. We're going to get there with a plan on plastic bags. What I'm saying to the member is that–I think my advice would be to defer this bill, bring it back at the next opportunity, and in the meantime, we can put in place a plan to actually make this bill work.

So I like the start that the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) has got . I'd like to be able to finish it off, so Madam Deputy Speaker, I'll leave the Chamber with those words. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): After those words from the minister, I have to say that it's time, in our province, to stop playing politics with environmental issues, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Member for River Heights brought forward this bill.

We could have brought forward our own bill too and so on, but we are supporting this bill because we support the principle of where it's going, and we would encourage the minister as well to support this.

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1679 If he's not going to, then why not use it as a starting point, which he has said that it is, and bring forward amendments to this bill? Why is it that we have to play politics with environmental issues all the time in this Chamber, Madam Deputy Speaker? It's time that we take this bill, that we use it as a starting point, perhaps, then, maybe we can make amendments to it.

Maybe we can make it better, and we believe that maybe there are ways to make it better, but, unfortunately, under the system, unless the government allows us to bring forward amendments to a private member's bill, we're not allowed to. So the minister has already stated today that he is in favour of–that he believes that this is a good start, Madam Deputy Speaker, and so, if he believes it's a good start, we would encourage him to use this as the base point of where we need to go with respect to this debate on banning plastic bags in our province and reducing the number of plastic bags used in our province.

The minister also said we need to have a comprehensive plan. Well, yes, we need a comprehensive plan, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it's been almost nine years and there is no plan so the Member for River Heights br ings this forward, you know, and yet the minister has no plan for this particular area. I would encourage him that if he believes that we need to have a comprehensive plan, maybe he should come up with one because he is the minister responsible here. He says he wants to defer this bill. Well, for how long? How long are we going to defer this bill? It's been eight and a half years.

How much longer do we have to wait for this minister to come up with his so- called comprehensive plan? Here's a starting point. Here's a springboard. Here's where we need to go from here, Madam Deputy Speaker. Stop playing politics with environmental issues. Let's get going. Let's get moving forward. Let's start to make a difference out there. Let's start to reduce the number of plastic bags in our landfill out there. I want to commend the Member for River Heights for bringing this forward for debate in this Chamber today. I think this is a very important issue.

By some estimates, there are as many as 200 million plastic bags that are used in Manitoba annually, and consumers certainly, are showing an increasing interest in environmental issues aimed at reducing waste in our province, yet, unfortunately, there is no comprehensive plan that has come forward by this government. So we support this bill that the Member for River Heights has come forward with.

We do believe, and I think that we need to look at other jurisdictions and what has worked elsewhere, and I think if we look at what has worked in Ireland, they brought forward an environmental levy, Madam Deputy Speaker, an environmental levy on the use of plastic bags. And again, that cut the usage of plastic bags by more than 90 percent. So are there ways that we can achieve these goals? Absolutely. Are there different ideas out there? Yes. And should we be debating this here? Yes, we should. And, Madam Deputy Speaker, the member for the Liberal Party, the Member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerra rd), has brought forward this to this Chamber to have this debate here and now, and I want to commend him for doing so, and I want to encourage members opposite that when we come to actually voting for this bill–hopefully, they will allow for it to come to a vote in this Chamber because we believe, as the minister has already stated, himself, that it is a very good starting point. * (10:30) So, if it's a good starting point, Madam Deputy Speaker, then he and his colleagues, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Bjornson), all of the ministers opposite, the Cabinet opposite, all the members opposite should then support this bill. They have no reason not to because they have no comprehensive plan out there as an alternative right now. I think that that is extremely unfortunate and so I would encourage again members opposite to stand behind us. We will stand with the Member for River Heights and our Liberal friends in this House, in this Chamber and support this bill because we believe it's an excellent starting point. Ms.

Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park): It's an honour to speak to this bill because this is something that I've been doing for 20 years, carrying cloth grocery bags to my grocery store. It's something that anyone can do and it's nice to see that the Member for River Heights is joining me in 1986 in trying to finally integrate cloth bags into his daily shopping habits, but the thing is that a ban is a first step but in some respects is a first and a baby step and is a step that can backfire if not thought through. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I commend the students from Cecil Rhodes, a school where my

1680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 stepmother taught. I'm gl ad to see that they're moving forward on this, but I'm sure, as they've learned in their classes around environmentalism, that one thing is not ever the sole problem in the environmental thing. It's about an interconnection, and we have to think through all the things. Too many mistakes have been made in the past 40 years where people have tried to solve an environmental problem by banning one thing, doing one single thing without thinking of the ripple effects that it has and it's backfired and led to larger problems.

This is what we have to consider with this bill. I think, if anything, the students from Cecil Rhodes should take pride in what they've done, and they should be disappointed in the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) for offering, a forward to them a bill that does not think things through completely. He's offered them half of something rather than something complete, comprehensive and that really will do the proper job. So he has done a disservice to these students by offering them a flash in the pan, a headline. He hasn't thought things through.

If he's going to model behaviour for youth, he should teach them to think through critically for all of the implications. I spent, again, 20 years ago when I was first starting to use cloth bags, you know what I was also doing? I was a university student involved with environmental groups, and I was teaching young people, students this age about environmental activism. It is about thinking globally and acting locally, and the first steps you take are ones as an individual. So you start as an individual to use cloth bags. You model that behaviour for other people.

You walk into a store, and when a merchant offers you a plastic bag you say no, I have my own cloth bag. So really it's about modelling behaviour. Bans can serve a purpose, but they can only serve a purpose when they are part of a larger holistic package, a larger holistic package that looks at the fact that how many people take those grocery bags out of a retailer and then turn around and use it for their garbage. So if they don't come out of that store with a plastic bag, what are they going to use for their garbage or picking up after their dog.

They're going to probably go out and buy a plastic bag that's of a thicker grade and biodegrades even worse. So we have to think about the ripple effects. So a ban can have its place, but if it is the only thing that is being put out there by the Member for River Heights, then it is a disservice to these students and it is a disservice to the environment.

We do have to come up with a comprehensive package that lays out all of the options, that shows that we've thought the situation through to all of the implications so that people aren't wondering what they're going to do when they scoop poop as responsible citizens, that they don't have to worry about what they're going to do to dispose of their garbage. It has to be integrated with composting. It has to be integrated with other forms of recycling. Again, I say the Member for River Heights has done these students a disservice.

He has dangled a carrot in front of them without thinking through things to its logical conclusion. He has not thought things through and all the implications. So he's giving them the opportunity for a headline. That is not good environmental thinking, Madam Deputy Speaker. Good environmental thinking is about the long term. Those of us who for 20 years have been using cloth bags know that it's not about today and you making a headline as a member supporting a bunch of teenagers.

It's about all of us on a daily basis changing our activities, and some of us have been spending 20 years trying to tell people, you know what, your groceries will get home safer in a cloth bag. So, nice for you to have joined the party that some of us have been at for 20 years, okay? So, if we're going to put this forward again, standing with the Member for Dauphin-Roblin, the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers), if you're going to do this, you do it once, you do it right the first time.

You don't throw a half-thought-out bill out there and then try to see how you're going to implement it and patch it up later. It takes five minutes to draft up what you did there, and I appreciate the effort and the fact that you're finally coming to the party, but do these kids the service they deserve and let us put together a proper comprehensive package that will really make a difference in the long run. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I am truly amazed with the mentality and the arguments that are being put forward by the government of the day.

She talks about good environmental thinking. Let me suggest to the Member for Kirkfield Park, good environmental thinking would ban the plastic bags. Madam Deputy Speaker, you do not have to be a scientist to discover that fact.

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1681 In fact, Madam Deputy Speaker, you have seen that there has been wide support of banning the bag. It goes beyond this legislative Chamber. It's good for the environment. It's pretty simple: hundreds of millions of plastic bags would disappear from our landfill sites, from our mesh fences, from our environment virtually overnight by passing this legislation. I question why it is the government has so much fear to allow this bill to be voted on so that it can go into committee so that we could hear presentations on the banning of the bag.

I don't believe for a moment that the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers) or the previous speaker, the Member for Kirkfield Park, have any idea in terms of what it means to take a first step. This is an important step. I applaud individuals that take the initiative. We have in the gallery students from Cecil Rhodes School who should be applauded for their action. Watch the video. See what they've done. They've taken an issue and they've simplified it to the point in which it reflects what is being said in this particular bill. It's very simple. It's a very simple, important step.

We don't need the gobbledygook coming from the government as to why it doesn't need to be passed at this time. The government knows full well that if it has concerns it can move it forward in committee and make the necessary amendments. There is no need to delay the passage of this particular bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, unless, of course, you do not support good, sound, environmental policy. This bill will go a long way in protecting our environment and there hasn't been a speaker, I believe, that would be able to articulate as to why this bill would not be good for Manitoba's environment.

I can appreciate sometimes government tends to not want to do things unless it's the government of the day that has the idea and has it on paper or brings in the bill itself. You know, we're not that fussy in terms of political ownership. I am sure, even though it's a great privilege of mine to be the seconder, that any member of the Chamber, the government, can second the bill. In fact, if the government wants to bring in a bill prior to the ending of this session that will do the same thing, we would applaud that action. What we're interested in seeing is action on the environment. We're tired of the talk.

The government talks about the environment a lot. Here's an opportunity for them to demonstrate clear, concise action at protecting our environment. People are watching. People are concerned. People want the government to do the right thing. What is the wrong thing is to allow this bill to die on the Order Paper. At least have the political courage to stand up and vote the bill down. If you don't support the legislation, then vote it down. I believe that if this bill was to be allowed to be voted on, that most members of the NDP caucus are friends of the environment and would support this bill.

Most members of this Chamber, I believe, see the merit of passing this bill. There's nothing wrong with passing this bill. At the end of the day you could take a look at Leaf Rapids. The Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), I'm sure, could attest in terms of how it has been successful. * (10:40) There might be some problems, and we'll acknowledge that there could be some problems when you implement a ban of this nature. We're not that naive, but nor are we that naive to believe that the bill does not have the merit that would make a positive difference.

That's the reason why we believe the most important thing that we could see here this morning is, at the very least, the opportunity for every MLA to vote on the bill. Let the MLAs collectively decide whether or not this bill should be moving forward so that we can go to the constituencies and say that I voted in favour of banning plastic bags, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that that's what I'm going to be telling my constituents. That's what I'm going to be telling the surrounding areas; that it's with pride that I was the seconder of the bill.

It was a privilege to be able to be the seconder, but the most important thing is I want to know where people inside this Chamber really feel on this particular bill. Allow for the bill to be voted on. Too often we'll see a member adjourn it or it will be spoken out only because the government doesn't want to vote against something, and I think that would be wrong. I believe that it's important. It's time now for us to walk the talk. You talk about doing the right things on the environment. Well, let's see if in fact you'll walk the talk on this and support Bill 200.

A vast majority of Manitobans support, I believe, this type of legislation. We have seen the generational gaps filled. Madam Deputy Speaker, individuals from all ages recognize the impact a bill like this could have on our environment; hundreds of millions of plastic bags all over the province, and the positive impact.

1682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 The alternatives are out there. As one member has pointed out, multiply it by eight years and you can do the math. It's a lot of plastic bags. If we look into the future, it's an important step. It doesn't have to be deferred. There is no justification in terms of, let's hold off, let's wait till the fall time, let's wait till next year, let's wait until we have a comprehensive plan. Madam Deputy Speaker, the time is now. The time is now. Either put up or shut up on the issue.

It's either you're going to support the public ban on plastic bags and you want to do something healthy for the environment, or you're going to sit on your hands and do nothing. Nothing in terms of real consequences for the environment. If there is a bill that is simple and effective, I would suggest to you–and good for the environment, I should add–this is one of those bills. The question is, we know that the opposition, the Conservatives and the Liberals are now on side. We would like to see the support of the third political party inside this Chamber getting behind this bill. They've got nothing to lose.

Nothing at all to lose by allowing to, at the very least, go to committee, Madam Deputy Speaker. It doesn't mean that it becomes law, it just brings it to the next level. There is nothing wrong with allowing this bill to go to committee, because I'll tell you, if it goes to committee, what really happens is it then opens it up for public debate. The public then can come before committee and express what they think about the bill. They can then be afforded the opportunity to express their opinions, both good and bad.

So why would the government fear members of the public coming to the Legislative Building and voicing their opinions on this particular bill? I trust and I hope that the government would see the merit in allowing this bill, at the very least, to come to a vote, and if it's a question in terms of more people want to speak on the bill, well I could suggest to you that the political will would be here in the Chamber to allow leave so that we could have as many people that want to speak to the bill, speak to the bill prior to its passage into committee.

I would conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, by making the statement that I challenge all members to recognize the efforts of the public–in particular, Cecil Rhodes School–and many other young people. Follow their lead. Do the right thing. Acknowledge that this is an important step. The government can measure it however they want, but acknowledge that it is an important step forward in terms of protecting our environment. In a day and age when the environment is so important to each and every one of us, let’s not lose the opportunity to do the right thing.

I ask the government to have the courage, the political courage, at the very least, to allow this bill to go to committee and the leave would be granted if requested, to allow for any member to speak on this bill here this morning. Thank you. Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Madam Deputy Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak with respect to the proposal from the Liberal members.

If the member's sincere about the notion that this is not a political issue, that we should be working together, then the member should take it under consideration the offer that has been made to defer this bill and work with us on a more comprehensive plan. This is not an easy-button issue. This is not an easy-button solution. The members are familiar with that advertising campaign; you just press the easy button. That's the proposal that we have in this particular bill. I hear the member from–[interjection] Maybe the Member for Portage (Mr. Faurschou) would like to speak to this after I'm finished.

But this is not an easy-button solution. Members opposite, the Liberals, profess to be the environmental stewards and they stood up and produced a bill that watered down the water act essentially. They said no, you don't need to remove phosphates and nitrates–just phosphorus, that's fine, just remove the phosphorus.

As somebody who lives by the lake, I would much rather stand beside a government that's prepared to go and–[interjection] I would much rather stand on this side of the House as part of a government that's prepared to take all th e necessary measures to address both phosphorus a nd nitrates as pollutants, Madam Deputy Speaker. Members opposite also proposed a bill that dealt simply with phosphorus in detergents and that's not enough. You don't water down that act either. We went further when we looked at issues of fertilizer and items that were being applied on lawns and our legislation took it a step further.

But I will have to say, I should have started actually by saying, as the Minister of Education, how pleased I am that we have the students from Cecil Rhodes here because as my colleague from Dauphin, the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers) said, students know a lot more about environmental issues than we did 20 years ago, 25 years ago, 30 years ago when we were students. They've been tremendous

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1683 advocates for our environment, and they need to know that we are working and committed as a government to do what's best for the environment. We also have to have a very balanced approach in this, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have to make sure that there's a plan in place that works. Now, the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), I did agree with one thing he said. There could be some problems. He said there could be some problems with this legislation. They didn't assess what those problems would be, but he did recognize that there could be some problems.

I would be curious to know what type of consultation the Member for Inkster had engaged in with industry and with retailers and other organizations that could have some impacts on this particular legislation by hitting the easy button. That just won't work. But our commitment is to work with industry, work with the partners, consult. We consider the members opposite as partners in this process, if they're so willing to put politics aside, as they said they are. They said put politics aside. Well, put it aside and work with us. The offer's there. Defer this bill and work on a more comprehensive plan.

Now, as Minister of Education, I'm absolutely pleased with the work that our department has been doing that's been recognized not only nationally, but internationally, on the file of education for sustainable development. Education for sustainable development is one of the key components of our education renewal in Manitoba. It is a basic component through all the curriculum that's being developed in the social studies area, in language arts area.

Education for sustainable development is now on the agenda of the Council of Ministers of Education Canada because of the fine work that our department is doing, because of the fine work that Deputy Minister Gerald Farthing has been doing. We have been speaking nationally and internationally about education for sustainable development. Education for sustainable development deals with the idea of making decisions in life that are sustainable and that are environmentally friendly. As I said, we're seeing the impacts of this at the kindergarten to grade 12 level. Students are engaged in this notion.

Students have embraced this notion. Students have become wonderful environmental stewards. * (10:50) So, to come out and say, it's easy, ban the plastic bag, does not do service to all the work that's been done in the school system for education purposes. It does not do service to the industry. It does not do service to the community. I, for one, as a dog owner– it has been referenced, the idea that these bags are reused, and I certainly reuse plastic bags, as a dog owner–I'd be quite concerned with the options that might be presented or available with respect to cleaning up after my dog.

There are going to be impacts by an outright ban. The members opposite, again, thanks for acknowledging there could be a problem, but what problems have you identified? Have you even consulted industry? Have you consulted with the retailers? Have you consulted with anyone who would be impacted by an outright ban? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Bjornson: Well, I haven't seen any suggestion that that has indeed been the case. The member says yes, but the other thing is that, when we had hearings on the whole notion of resource conservation in Manitoba, the Member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard), at no time did he ever suggest that a plastic-bag ban would be a part of that discussion. So it's rather interesting after those consultations that now, in the Chamber, in an non-political way–he's saying this isn't political, it's about the environment– comes forward now and introduces a bill when that was never raised as a part of the consultations that we've been engaged with Manitobans with respect to a comprehensive plan. Yes, there have been some jurisdictions that have gone forward with some of the bans. I know the member referenced Chin a.

I think the member should be cautious in that comparison given the environmental record that we see in China. Sometimes necessity is the mother of invention when you consider the densely populated areas of China and the impact that that would have. Consider the amount of coal energy in China, consider some of the other very profound environmental challenges that that jurisdiction has. I would caution the member on using that as a comparison. [interjection] Yes, I hear the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) talking about Leaf Rapids. Yes, I commend Leaf Rapids for showing that initiative.

Again, this is an NDP constituency, as I have been reminded by the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen). They certainly showed a lot of foresight in that effort. This is just part of it, though. As I said,

1684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 this is just part of a bigger-picture issue and it has to be addressed in a more comprehensive manner. There are a number of issues that we have to look at. We have to look at compostable bags. We have to look at what this impact would be if it was strictly paper bags. Certainly we can talk about the benefits of using paper over plastic but there are some other issues that the member has to consider.

To eliminate the billions of plastic bags that the member is suggesting this bill would address, the member also has to be aware that this would mean a significant increase in paper. A significant increase in paper bags would mean cutting down more trees. I'm sure the member's put that math together with respect to how many trees would be required for the paper industry to address the need for paper bags. Certainly we have to take a more balanced and sustainable approach to how we manage this particular issue, Mr. Speaker.

If they're truly concerned about the environment and they're truly suggesting that this is not a political issue, then the members will do the right thing and work with us on a more comprehensive plan. The offer's been made by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers) to defer the bill until a implementation plan is able to be worked out and make the bill work. As a government we introduce legislation. We have to examine all angles of the legislation. You have to take all factors into consideration. You have to consult with all members who would be impacted by this legislation.

That will include the industry, that will include the retailers, that will include Manitoba residents who have some concerns about this issue and how to appropriately manage this issue. Again, the offer is there. Work with us in a non-political fashion. If you're truly concerned about the environment, work with us to see that this bill can be part of a comprehensive plan, a manageable plan and not a plan that is simply an easy-button solution. There are no easy-button solutions because if that was the case, all these things would be done already. Is that not true?

All these easy-button solutions would be done, we'd be moving forward as environmental stewards and we'd be doing what is best for our environment. The offer remains for the members to work with us in a non-political environment and ensure that we do what is right, what is balanced, what is manageable, what is sustainable. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I just want to say about this bill, I'd like to commend the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) for bringing it forward, and, really, unlike the Member for Kirkfield Park (Ms.

Blady), I don't think this does a disservice to the students of Cecil Rhodes. I think that it's a very good thing to learn on a step-by-step basis. We don't take children into kindergarten and throw the grade 12 curriculum at them. We teach them in steps, and I think this is what we're doing with this bill. We're doing it in steps.

So we have a bill that we support in the principle of this bill, and, you know, as private members, we bring forward pieces of legislation to this Chamber, and we're told repeatedly, oh, it's not comprehensive enough; oh, we can't do that; it doesn't include this or doesn't include that. The Member for Gimli (Mr. Bjornson) talks about working with them. Why not work with this bill? The bill is already here. Why not work with the Liberal Party on this bill? It's simple. It's right here, and I've had experience with bringing private members' bills to this Chamber before, Mr.

Speaker, and I actually brought quite a comprehensive bill, a bill written like this, which was protection of personal information and prevention of identity theft act. When I spoke to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) on the bill, he went, well, that's far too much. That's far too much. Private members' bills are supposed to be just ideas and that's far too much. You have to start small. You have to start small. That was the argument then. Now the argument is, oh, we can't start small. We have to be all-encompassing. I would suggest that this is just government double-speak here, Mr. Speaker.

What is it that they want? Really, they can take the bill that we have here. We can, if there are amendments that the government would like to make, they keep saying work with the government. Why doesn't the government work with this bill that's been presented? It's already here. I don't understand why that wouldn't happen, and we have the opportunity to have debate in this Chamber and now we have the opportunity to–let's have a vote on this bill. Why would the government not vote on this bill? Today, within the next one minute, we could have a vote on this bill in this Chamber.

We can pass it through to committee, and, at committee, we can have Manitobans come in and hear what they have to

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1685 say about this bill. If the government thinks that Manitobans are not in favour of this bill, then put it out to the committee and let's see what happens. Let's see who comes forward. But, Mr. Speaker, there are many good reasons to look at first steps here. The principle of getting rid of these plastic bags that fill up our landfill sites–and I certainly drive by Brady Landfill quite often and see the bags flying around, and it is really a disgusting sight. We do need to take some first steps here.

So rather than saying, let's kill the whole idea here and wait for a plan that hasn't materialized in eight years, here's a good step. Here's a good step. Why don't we start here? Why doesn't this government say–they say, work with us. We say work with this bill. It's already here. It's in front of the Legislature. We can vote on it right now, so I encourage the members opposite to stand up and vote on this bill, and if they vote it down, say why you do vote it down. Let's pass it to committee. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Hon.

Andrew Swan (Minis ter of Competitiveness, Training and Trade): It's a pleasure to speak to this bill, and I would like to recognize the students from Cecil Rhodes School who are here today, interested in this issue, learning about the legislative, the parliamentary process. I certainly commend their interest in this issue. Of course, they're in the riding of Wellington, just north of the area that I represent in the Legislature, and, given the area that I represent, I've learned a lot about garbage.

Indeed, I have that on the top of my mind because this Saturday, I'll be gathering with the community and some of my colleagues here in the Legislature to clean up Omand's Creek. My friend, the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer), and I have worked on this for the last several years. I'm very pleased the MLA for Wellington (Ms. Marcelino) is going to come and join me as well. Indeed, we've expanded the procedure. I know that my friend, the MLA for St. James (Ms. Korzeniowski) is now involved in a plan to clean up Truro Creek, and as well, the Member for Kirkfield Park (Ms.

Blady) will, for the first time in many, many years, we have an MLA in Kirkfield Park interested in the community, and she'll be helping the community clean up Sturgeon Creek. So, indeed, I've done this many years. I've had dirt under my fingernails as I've cleared up– * (11:00) Mr. Speaker: Order. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable Minister for Competitiveness, Training and Trade will have eight minutes remaining. The hour being 11 a.m., we will now move on to resolutions and–[interjection] Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on a point of order. Mr.

Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I just need your clarification from the Chair here. I know there are a lot of other members that want to speak to this very important bill, and I'm not sure just what the rules are here, but I wonder if we could canvass the House to have consent to continue discussion on this very important piece of legislation. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Inkster, on the same point of order? Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The Member for Turtle Mountain, I think, brings up a very good issue in terms of the political will, and I would further request that if there is leave of the Chamber, we would be more than happy to have whoever speak to the bill so that ultimately it could come to a vote if possible. So we would be prepared to give leave, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Swan: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we do indeed have many members who wish to speak to this. At the same time we've got a very important private member's resolution on breast cancer, which is coming forward. The legislative

schedule has been set up, really, from the session order from last year, so, although we will continue debate on this bill whenever the opposition members wish to bring it back in private members' hour, this House has other important business, too, to care of. Mr. Speaker: The request was to put to the House if there is leave to continue debate on the bill. Is there willingness of the House to continue the debate on the bill or do we move on to resolutions? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Okay, there is no agreement. We will now move on to–it's 11 a.m., and now we will move on to resolution 7, 2008 World Conference on Breast Cancer.

1686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 RESOLUTION Res. 7–2008 World Conference on Breast Cancer Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): I move, seconded by the Member for Rossmere (Ms. Braun), that:

WHEREAS breast cancer is the most common- occurring cancer among Canadian women with an estimated four million women living with breast cancer globally:

WHEREAS the Canadian Cancer Society estimates that 2008 will see 22,400 new cases of breast cancer in Canadian women; and

WHEREAS an estimated 780 of those cases will occur in the province of Manitoba; and

WHEREAS breast cancer is not just a women's issue, given that approximately 170 new cases in men were diagnosed in 2007; and

WHEREAS approximately 5,300 women and 50 men will die of breast cancer this year; and

WHEREAS one in nine women is expected to develop breast cancer during her lifetime and one in 28 will die from it; and

WHEREAS the World Conference on Breast Cancer Foundation is strengthening international networks concerned with breast cancer as well as advancing global and local action on breast cancer; and

WHEREAS Winnipeg will be the host to the 2008 World Conference on Breast Cancer from June 4 to 8, which will bring together women from all over the world to share their experiences of living with breast cancer and share their hopes, dreams and fears;

WHEREAS the conference will also hear from individuals who are supporting friends, family and loved ones living with breast cancer; and

WHEREAS all Manitobans need to be informed and aware of the risk factors associated with breast cancer and early detection methods. THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government to consider continuing to support breast cancer re search, screening and treatment for the benefit of all Manitobans; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba welcome the 2008 World Breast Can cer Conference and commend the important ad vocacy work of the Foundation. Mr. Speaker: It's been moved by the honourable Member for St. Norbert, seconded by the honourable Member for Rossmere:

WHEREAS breast cancer– An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Ms. Brick: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to bring this private member's resolution before the Legislative Assembly. This resolution resolves that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government to consider continuing to support breast cancer re search, screening and treatment for the benefit of all Manitobans. It also resolves that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba welcome the 2008 World Br east Cancer Conference and commend the important advocacy work of the foundation. Mr.

Speaker, this conference that is coming this spring to Manitoba is important as it invites women from across Canada to come and talk about their fears, talk about their successes and celebrate in their successes. It's also really important because it brings people from different parts of the world together, where they can talk about treatment and they can talk about some of the research that's been relevant and been happening recently. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that the title of the conference is Heart, Soul & Science which, I think, is a very appropriate title, considering some of the difficulties that people face when they do find out that they are facing a diagnosis of breast cancer. I've had a friend, Sandi Felix, who passed away from this disease. I watched her struggle with her diagnosis and a struggle with facing the type of treatment that was available at the time, as well as facing her imminent demise. I must say, Mr.

Speaker, that this is a very difficult disease to be facing a family as well as the individual who does encounter that they have breast cancer. We know that research is leading us forward and we know that research is making huge steps forward in terms of the life expectancy of people who are diagnosed with this disease. Winnipeg will be host to the 2008 World Conference on Breast Cancer from June 4 to 8. This conference will bring women together from all over the world. They'll be able to talk about the disease

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1687 that they face; they'll be able to talk about their hopes, their dreams. They'll also be able to talk about their fears because often it is through us getting together as a group that we are able to find strength. There is strength in numbers; we know that's what we're going to be having this spring; people coming from as far away as Malaysia, Russia and Europe will be here. One of the very unique things about this conference, Mr.

Speaker, is that breast cancer survivors will be able to be speaking at this conference, and they will be speaking on equal terms with researchers. So I think that's a very unique facet that this conference has included in its mandate. It will be helping women deal with fear. There are, we know, lots of stories out there, lots of stories of success, and this will allow women to celebrate their success. The objectives of the conference are to educate and share information on all aspects of breast cancer, including prevention, diagnosis, treatment, research, support, survivorship and international outreach.

It will also provide opportunity for those affected with the disease to express their fears, their frustrations, their hopes and dreams. It will allow them to tell their stories. It will also encourage the strengthening of local, regional and international networks concerned with breast cancer. It will move forward and advance global and local action related to breast cancer. I was quite surprised to find out that, in other parts of the world, getting treatment is much harder than it is here in Manitoba.

Often breast cancer people who suffer through this disease in other parts of the world, they hide it; th ey aren't able to share it. So I think that we have to celebrate the fact that here in Manitoba and in Canada the survival rate of breast cancer is much higher than it is in other parts of the world. We look at breast cancer, we know that it's one of the most common occurring cancers among Canadian women, with an estimated four million women living with breast cancer globally. We also know that men are affected by this disease, although it's not something that's widely recognized.

This is often recognized as a women's disease. It is not seen as a disease that men are also diagnosed with. We know that there were approximately 170 new cases of men diagnosed in 2007 and that 50 men will die from it this year. * (11:10) Manitoba continues to have the shortest wait time for cancer radiation therapy, along with B.C. We know that here, in Manitoba, we have a one-week wait time. When we came into office, cancer waits were much longer, as they were for my friend when she was diagnosed. They were much longer at six weeks.

In 2008, our government announced that it will triple the number of beds dedicated to radiation oncology. We will fund more than 2,500 additional prevention breast cancer screening, and we will hire new staff as part of a package of new investments aimed at cancer prevention and treatment. Mr. Speaker, I want to talk about the opportunity that this conference provides for people to find out about the research that's been happening. We want to be able to have people know; a lot of us are involved in raising money for breast cancer and it's great for people to find out where these funds are going.

This conference will provide women the opportunity to find out what is happening in research, and cutting- edge research, and where the funds that they have been raising are going. Women often describe breast cancer as being on a roller coaster ride. I saw that with my friend, Sandi, when she was diagnosed with breast cancer. We know that there's an ongoing screening that has to happen with individuals after they've been diagnosed with breast cancer, and they 've been treated. There's an ongoing period of at least five years that you have to be considered free of cancer before you would be in remission.

This period of time is often very difficult for people to struggle through. So, I think that this conference does huge things in terms of looking at the kinds of fears that people face. It gives a great opportunity for families to get together and learn more about the disease and the research that is going on. It also is a great opportunity for the foundation to be able to support the kind of work that the Canadian Cancer Society is doing. So, Mr. Speaker, with t hose few words, I want to say it's my pleasure to bring this resolution before the House, and I hope we can pass it unanimously. Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I'm very pleased to stand and speak to this private member's resolution and to indicate our support for the resolution. It's very hard to imagine somebody that hasn't been touched by breast cancer in some way, whether

1688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 it was a family member, a friend, a colleague. I think we all know somebody that has been touched. It is always a profound experience, whether they are living with cancer and struggling to deal with it, or whether it is somebody that has passed away and has been a good friend, or we watch the family come to terms with it. Several of my friends have actually had breast cancer and some have actually died. So it is something, as I've said, that does touch many of us. The World Conference on Breast Cancer is certainly greatly exciting for Winnipeg.

It will be held on June 4 to 8, this year. I've been very pleased over the last couple of years to have had several conversations with Barbara Shumley , who is the president of this confer ence. Besides being the president of this world conference, she's also a nurse, a friend and a constituent of mine who lives in Charleswood. She has been a tireless, passionate advocate on the issue of breast cancer, and I don't know anybody who will put th e kind of effort and passion into this conference as she will.

I think if you see the materials from the conference, you will see her creativity through everything, whether it's the presentations, whether it's the conference material, whether it is the activities that are going right now to bring attention to the issue. She is certainly to be commended, along with the hard work of her volunteers and all of the people that are involved behind the scenes to make this conference come together here in Winnipeg. I would indicate that Barbara Shumley has been recognized nationally and internationally for her work. She has been a tireless advocate on the issue of breast cancer.

She's also had in her job activities over the last number of years, been very involved in breast cancer research, prevention and treatment. She also won a 2005 Woman of Distinction Award here in Manitoba, acknowledging her great efforts, but that is not the only award she's won because she has been recognized nationally and internationally, also, for all of her work. She gave me, over a year ago, a conference poster which I have in my office, and it is really a remarkable, beautiful poster that actually depicts a lot of hope in terms of addressing and looking at the issue of breast cancer.

I th ink that is sort of an underlying theme of what drives a lot of people, that one day we hope we can eradicate this disease, that one day we hope women and men will not be dying from it, or afflicted by it. I was also able, at a conference last summer, at a Canadian conference of women parliamentarians, to share information packages about this conference with them in the hopes that they would take back to all of their provinces this information and encourage women from across Canada to also attend the conference.

As has been mentioned, the theme of the conference is Heart, Soul & Science: "It's a Small World After All!" and what they've done is, by zeroing in on this theme it will provide the overarching framework for the program that will focus on the lyrics from the song "It's a Small World." Some of those lyrics are, and I would just like to quote it for the record: "It's a world of laughter / A world of tears / It's a world of hopes / And a world of fears / There's so much that we share / That it's time we're aware / It's a small world after all." And with that they're bringing women from all around the world to this co nference to actually show us in many ways that it is a small world after all.

The words laughter, tear s, hopes, fears, share and aware, reflect the personal emotions of the heart and soul as well as the experiences women face throughout their breast cancer journey while providing a connection to the more clinical and scientific aspects of the breast cancer continuum. Prevention, diagnosis, treatm ent, research, support, survivorship and international outreach, and all of that will be discussed at this conference.

It will allow people, particularly women from other countries, to attend, to expand their knowledge, it will advance international and multidisciplinary global action, which is what is needed, and it will enhance valuable support networks for breast cancer survivors because we know that breast cancer survivors do, indeed, benefit in many ways from these types of networks. I think what it will do, it will empower women, it will empower those involved in the fight against breast cancer to continue to work hard to take this issue and address it in many, many different ways.

The conference will provide a platform to discuss breast cancer issues that are important to individuals worldwide, including access to care. As we've heard, it's not always the same in other countries as it is here. We even have our own problems here in Canada in terms of access to care. It'll look at primary preventions, support, advances in medicine, advocacy initiatives, improved treatment, as well as complementary and alternative therapies. So there's

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1689 certainly going to be a lot of opportunity to attack this issue from many different angles. I would like to give credit to these volunteers that have worked so diligently and it has been for years that they have been working on this particular conference, and just knowing some of the people that are involved in this, I'm sure that this conference is going to be a tremendous success here in Winnipeg.

I would like at this time to also indicate that, not that long ago, the Manitoba walk to end breast cancer was actually ended here in Manitoba, and I think there was some disappointment about that because there are, you know, many ways for Manitobans to support the fight against breast cancer and this was a personal way for a lot of people and a lot of people gave generously in support of breast cancer research and treatment. The CIBC Run for the Cure is one aspect I know that a lot of my colleagues and I and our staff and volunteers participate in on a very, very regular basis every year.

It is quite an emotional walk to be with thousands of people with one intent, as you're walking, you know, sometimes listening to the birds, sometimes listening to people around you talking about their experiences, sometimes walking and personally sharing some stories with one of the walkers. These walks have been very, very empowering for a lot of people, and very emotional for many.

So I am glad to see that many Manitobans are so committed to that. * (11:20) The other event that I was just starting to talk about, the Walk to End Breast Cancer, was held last year and the year before but, unfortunately, has now been cancelled because, according to the head of CancerCare, Dr. Dhaliwal, one of the reasons the event was cancelled was that CancerCare couldn't use all the money toward improving breast cancer treatment because there aren't enough oncologists and technologists.

That is certainly a significant concern to those of us in Manitoba that have put a lot of effort into the issue of addressing breast cancer. How sad it is that we have had people that want to do something, that are giving money, but we do not have the oncologists here, according to Dr. Dhaliwal, that can actually take this issue and go forward in a bigger way here in Manitoba so that we can prevent and treat it. I think the government has a lot of work to do here in Manitoba in order to address this issue. I'm very pleased to have this opportunity, Mr.

Speaker, to comment on this and I wish the conference organizers all the best. I'm sure they will have great success with their conference. Thank you very much. Ms. Jennifer Howard (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, it's also my pleasure to get up today and speak a little bit about this very important conference that, I think, Winnipeg is honoured to play host to. I would certainly echo the Member for Charleswood's comments about Barbara Shumley. She is a tremendously passionate advocate. I have had the opportunity to meet her in my past life when I was working for the Women's Health Clinic.

I would also share her appreciation of the creativity, the beautiful poster and the beautiful materials that have been developed for this conference. Those posters, I think, came out years ago. So the promotion of this conference has been well, well in advance. I know that at the clinic we were so taken with the poster that we promptly had one mounted and framed so that we could display it in our boardroom. I think it does, as this conference does, express a theme, an overwhelming theme of hope and humanity in the face of very tremendous challenges.

I think the theme being "It's a Small World" does communicate that all of us, all of us I'm sure in this Chamber have had our lives touched by cancer, either directly or through family members. For me, I take a moment to reflect on the life of my grandmother who passed away–next month, it'll be 12 years–passed away from lung cancer, and was a very healthy woman all of her life but, like many women in her generation, also smoked for most of her life and had, of course, quit but tragically died at a young age at the age of 69 from lung cancer.

I was privileged to be able to be with her as she was dying, with my mother and my aunts; it's a tremendously powerful experience. I kno w many, many in this Chamber have shared that experience of being with someone you love in their final days and their final moments. I think the breast cancer survivors that I have been privileged to know have all showed a tremendous amount of courage. I think about the dragon boat races that we see happen every year on the river and the women who are there in those boats with tremendous physical en durance that I'm sure I could not match.

These are women, many of whom have survived breast cancer , who have had surgery

1690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 and many kinds of treatment and, yet, put in the effort and the time to train to be part of this dragon boat experience. When you talk to them afterwards, they speak about how empowering it is to be able to once again feel the strength of their bodies and have that physical experience of rowing together as a team. I know, when I worked at the Women's Health Clinic, one of the things that the staff wanted to do and came to me with was they wanted to put together a team for those races, and I wholeheartedly supported that.

I said I would not be in the boat, but I would host the barbecue afterwards. It was a tremendously positive teambuilding experience not only for the staff who were involved but, I think, also the opportunity to be part of something bigger than oneself to raise funds for a cause as worthy as fighting breast cancer. I also want to talk a bit about the theme of the conference, "It's a Small World," and reflect on the lyrics of that song, and the song talks both about laughter and tears. I think that that does describe the experience of cancer for many, many people.

It is a heart-wrenching diagnosis to receive, but it does also–many people get through that experience with their sense of humour intact and I'm reminded of the comedian, Gilda Radner, who was dying–I think she died of ovarian cancer–and after her death, these things called Gilda's Clubs were founded and they're clubs of survivors and patients of cancer where they can get together and laugh. They can get together and share what many of us would probably consider inappropriate humour, but we know that often that kind of humour gets you through life's tough times.

I think one of the reasons that this conference is so unique and innovative is that it will take the experiences of patients and caregivers and put them on the same level as the experience of the so-called experts, the researchers and the doctors, who all have valid things to share with each other. Often, you know, when we have the opportunity to help patients empower themselves, we find that they push the researchers and the caregi vers and the doctors and the nurses and everyone in volved in the care of a patient to do better. They push for innovation.

One of the places I think that has been especially true is the whole area of system navigation. Now, we talk about how the strides that we've made in treating cancer–a nd certainly the survival rates now are much greater than they were even 10 or 20 years ago–it's important that we have the facilities in place that can provide treatment. It's important that we have cutting-edge technology, it's vitally important that we train and educate the people who can deliver that care.

I'm very proud that this government has consistently increased the number of spaces in medical school, the opportunities for specialties, the numbers of spaces for technologists, has tried to make those fields competitive with other jurisdictions so we can retain the people that we train here. I think that's vitally important to having a functioning health-care system. Also important when you have treatment is that you have a system where pa tients feel that they can get what they need.

Part of that, I think, is having good system navigation in place, and I think when we have that in place, we really treat patients again as human beings. It's often the experience of patients–and I just reflect on my own experience of being a patient as a child–the experience of being a patient can be very disempowering. It is mainly an experience of having things done to you and not having much of a voice in that. Whatever we can do to help give patients back their voice and their power and help them find the best way through the system for them, I think, is very important.

I'm also very pleased that this conference is going to have the opportunity for patients to share experiences and for their caregivers to share that experience of what it's like to go through the journey of cancer with someone you love. In our last budget, we brought in a caregiver tax credit, which I know, perhaps, has not received a lot of attention but is going to go a long, long way to making the lives of many, many people easier and better, and mostly those people will be women.

It's mainly women who do the care-giving of elders or sick family members or children with disabilities, so I'm very pleased that we've brought that tax credit in.

I know that the need to give support to caregivers is something that has been championed by other organizations I've had the privilege of working with– the Prairie Women's Health Centre of Excellence and all the centres of excellence on women's health–that, early on, recognize that th ere is a whole informal part of health care that often we don't talk about, that often we don't give enough credit to, and that's all of the moms and sisters and daughters and husbands and dads and brothers and extended family of friends that help take care of peop le when they're sick.

That drive people to appointments, that hold the hand of someone as they're going through some kind of treatment or who are just th ere in the middle of the night to answer that 3 a.m. phone call.

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1691 I'm very pleased that this conference and our government recognizes the important role that those informal caregivers play. Recently, Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to meet with representatives of the Canadian Cancer Society locally. I got the opportunity to tour their new warehouse and it's quite stunning to see the volume of materials and work that they do out of that office and out of that warehouse.

Not only work, I mean, most of us are familiar with the Cancer Society from their daffodil days and we give money to them, but they also do tremendously good work in advocating for cancer survi vors and cancer patients, and I think we're going to see even more of that work and I welcome it. * (11:30) So I suppose, in closing, I just would like to say how proud I am that Winnipeg will be hosting this conference. I look forward to attending some of the public events that will be held.

I want to echo other members who have spoken about the tremendous contribution of the volunteer committee that has brought this conference here, and I hope that we'll be able to pass this resolution today unanimously. Thank you. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I, too, wish to put a few comments on the record in regard to the private member's bill that is before us today. I'd like to thank the mover and the seconder and all of the speakers so far who have spoken to this particular topic.

I, too, want to say that I think it's fantastic that we in Winnipeg will be hosting the fifth World Conference on Breast Cancer. I was reading with great interest that the Winnipeg Free Press is thinking of publishing a paper on June 4, and it will be a collectors' item, and it will be themed in pink. I understand from the

article that 10 cents of every newspaper sold will go towards breast cancer research and support. It sh ows that this is an issue that has a lot of support behind it. We know the devastating effects of it. If we haven't experienced it in our personal lives or our families we've seen it with other people who have suffered from it. Historically, it was one of those diseases that was probably underreported, and by the time a woman would actually go to her doctor and get treatment it was too late. A lot of the treatment was fairly crude when it first started out.

I learned something else from this debate coming up, that it's not just women who get breast cancer but also men. I have a statistic here that approximately 780 Manitoba women and 170 men are diagnosed with breast cancer each year. It is one of those very, very personal cancers. It's not like a leukemia or others. Most people are very private about it. It doesn't really in a lot of cases get talked about because it does really hit an individual hard, and I know far too many women who've had breast cancer.

Initially the first response is, yes, I'm struggling with breast cancer but if you would, kind of, please keep that quiet. It's often not the best thing and it is their personal wish. Other cancers, it's sometimes easier to give support because you know that the people have the cancer and you can, whether to pray for them or send them a card or whatever. For those women who stand up and are very public about it, it's really a heroic, heroic stand to take. It's a disease that does not strike older, it also strikes younger women, younger men.

In the past, it was very devastating, and from those in this House who know about the treatment, the treatment tends to be very radical and it was very harsh, the scars that were left behind. Today they've certainly modernized the treatment a lot on breast cancer, and survival rates have certainly improved. But we can't just stop there. We can't just say, you know, we're doing better. Until we've found a cure, we can't stop. Unfortunately, breast cancer has left a lot of people, spouses without a spouse, children without a parent, and that's the by-product.

It creates victims in that for those individuals who have it are the first victims and those who are left behind become the second line of victims. Having the conference here, I think, is great. I think Winnipeg is one of those incredibly warm- hearted, warm-spirited cities, and Manitoba in particular. I particularly loved our Friendly Manitoba slogan. I think it really depicted who we were, and I think we are very open and very warm. I think it's a great place for all these individuals to come and discuss a very personal topic and discuss a very personal topic in a very public way.

So I give them a lot of credit and I'm very excited that they're going to be here. In the newspaper

article that I quoted from–and I should give credit, it's the Winnipeg Free Press–they mention in here that the main sponsor of the conference is Scotiabank which has raised an extraordinary $8.3 million for the cause in the last 10 years. That is really, really remarkable. I mean, that is just remarkable. It's because of those kinds of

1692 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 donations that we've moved from fairly crude treatment to the kind of more holistic, that the treatments that we have today that aren't as invasive, that aren't as harsh on a body that we have today. So, again, I think it's important for this House to deal with this issue as we should be debating all these issues that we remind ourselves that when you peel away all the politics and when you strip away all the other stuff, in the end we're really here for what we hope is in the best interests of all our citizens, all Manitobans.

You know, the fight for cancer has to go on. If I get emotional, it's been 40 years ago that my mother died of cancer, and the treatment was such that she couldn't thrive. I, at that time, didn't know what was going on. I was too young. But, to all of those who put a lot of effort and time into this, I thank them in memory of my mother, Wanda Schuler. I thank them. Ms. Erna Braun (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, it is also a pleasure and honour to rise today to speak in support of this private member's resolution. I know our Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald) and our Minister of Healthy Living (Ms.

Irvin-Ross) would love to be here but are unable to because they have commitments with meetings, but I know that they, too, would add their support to this resolution. I think it's been said often already this morning, that there are very few people who have not been touched by the effects of the disease of cancer. We have family members and friends who have succumbed to it. We have family and friends who are currently living with cancer. Over the past eight years, it has certainly been something that I've been well aware of. I've had six friends and family members who have passed away from cancer.

Unfortunately, four of those were contemporaries, so passed away from the disease before they reached the age of 60. One of the things that struck me about this resolution was that I felt it was an opportunity for me to acknowledge and honour a friend of mine who was probably the first person that was a contemporary that succumbed to the disease eight years ago, and that was Jan Spielman, who was president of the Manitoba Teachers' Society at the time.

I know my colleague from Brandon East is also well acquainted with Jan and her courageous battle with the disease. * (11:40) The importance of it to us was the fact that there was a group of us younger women at the time that none of us had actually had any contact with someone who was dealing with the disease and fighting to remain active and contributing and to maintain a family. She certainly was a role model to us. I can still recall she went through her first breast cancer battle in her early forties and successfully lived through that, and then went on to become president of the Manitoba Teachers' Society.

I recall all of us celebrating her fifth year of being cancer- free and sort of being lulled into a feeling that she had made it and that she was going to live to a ripe old age. Unfortunately, that cancer returned and those of us who were on the provincial executive of the Teachers' Society at the time lived through her second battle with breast cancer and it really left a huge impression on us. We were a group of women who, at that point, had not really experienced someone who was dealing with the disease.

She made us aware of the trials and tribulations, the joys that you take in getting that test result back that seemed to be optimistic and being able to have a few good weeks where you could accomplish all sorts of things, as well as the lows of dealing with the news that your chemo was going to have to wait for another month because your white blood cell count wasn't high enough.

She certainly made us aware of what we needed to do as individuals to rally around friends and family who were suffering with the disease, how we could get involved in making sure that the greater community was aware of it and how we could get things done and try to do our part to improve research and hopefully at some point eradicate this disease. So, I think that even though she lost her battle, I think what she managed to do was certainly increase the awareness of a whole group of us who have gone on to advocate for research and work towards improving the situation for other breast cancer patients.

One of the things that also is important is to commend what we have been doing in terms of cancer research. Mr. Speaker, it really is scary as I look at information that says that 22,000 new cases of breast cancer in Canadian women will appear over the next short while but one of the things, and it certainly is more of a personal acknowledgment, is the fact that there will be more funds going towards

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1693 the Manitoba Breast Screening Program. That's certainly something that is a really, really important thing for our province to be doing. I know, as a person who is part of that program and goes through it every second year, I think it's a very proactive kind of thing that we can be doing.

Certainly, I have to say that when things did not look all that well with one of the screenings that I had, the whole process of going through the biopsy and getting the results was very short and the stress that my family and I had to go through waiting for the results was certainly something that wasn't very long-lived. It was great to know that the process and everything happens very quickly and that women are informed in a very expedited manner.

The whole process, from the people looking after you and doing what they can, was very supportive and a process which really helped to sort of reduce the level of stress that you go throug h when you're experiencing that. So, once again, I'm very pleased to see that this world conference is going to be happening here, that there's an opportunity for people to come together to share their experiences and to help others as they go through it. So, Mr. Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to speak to this resolution. Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I do want to also speak to this resolution on the 2008 World Conference on Breast Cancer brought forward by the Member for St. Norbert (Ms. Brick). I do think it's a very, very important issue and something that, of course, we would support and welcome the opportunity just to talk about this in an open way, as the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler) has said, sometimes it's more of a personal issue. It is very hard to imagine this whole topic without thinking of–I think that we all recognize that there are so many people that we know that have been touched by cancer. Mr.

Speaker, having the World Conference on Breast Cancer come here to Winnipeg, it's an opportun ity for many people from around the world to come here, and it's a tremendous support mechanism for those who have suffered with breast cancer. I know others have said in this Chamber about how important it is for everyone to show support, and it is one of those things that provides camaraderie and strength and support to those people suffering from the disease and that also transgresses through that to the families of people that suffer and their friends.

The statistics on this disease are quite horrific when you look at 5,300 women and 50 men will die of breast cancer th is year. That's a very, very high number. One woman in nine is expected to develop breast cancer. That's huge, Mr. Speaker. I know that there are many, many ways for Manitobans to support breast cancer and breast cancer research, Mr. Speaker. I know that we as a caucus did participate in the CIBC Run for the Cure. We've done that on several occasions. It was a tremendous event. So many people were involved in that, and they raised a lot of money. But, as we heard, unfortunately, according to Dr.

Dhaliwal, who is the head of CancerCare, one of the reasons that the event had to be cancelled was there weren't enough people to actually be involved in the diagnosis of breast cancer. That is a very scary thing when you think about how prevalent the disease really is and the fear that people will have in knowing that there aren't enough people in the system to address the diagnosis and the treatment of breast cancer. The Member for Fort Rouge (Ms. Howard) spoke of the dragon boat r aces. I did participate in that one year.

I was in that boat, and I could tell you the time involved in training for that was extensive and doing the physical activity in that dragon boat was pretty difficult, but it was a lot of fun. Actually, we came in last on our first race, but we actually came in second out three, so in the second race we were in the middle of the pack. We didn't feel too bad for our first attempt at the dragon boat races. I've also participated in some Pink Ribbon golf tournaments here in the city, raising funds for breast cancer. Mr.

Speaker, there's certainly an awful lot of organizations out there that take the time to organize events that will help in our diagnosis and treatment of breast cancer. * (11:50) I think that when people have to wait for their diagnosis or for the resu lts of tests or for the treatment that has to follow, it is one of the most horrific things to have to deal with. First of all, the fear of being diagnosed with the disease, then waiting for those results, and then going through the treatment–having to wait weeks just to see a doctor.

I know a very good friend of mine, who has miraculously beat this disease, was diagnosed

1694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 10 years ago. At the time she was told she had five years. She was 35 years old, had three daughters and her incredible strength–she said, I will beat this. She went and sat in her doctor's office, in the waiting room at 8:30 in the morning because he couldn't see her that day. She sat there until 6 o'clock, all day. When everybody else had left and she finally got to see him, and thankfully she did. As it turned out, her records had been lost, and her perseverance, her strength, got her through that.

It's 10 years now and she's, thankfully, very, very healthy I have to say. I'm very happy to report that she's a survivor and the more that we can do to research and find ways to deal with this terrible disease, the better it will be for people that have the disease and for their families. This friend I talk about; three young daughters, and I have to say her mother was also diagnosed w ith breast cancer, so we know that it's–certain breast cancers are genetic–you can imagine the fear that that family has been in.

But I want to say that anything that we can do to further the research into breast cancer, the more we need to do, and certainly, welcome the idea of having this world conference here in Manitoba. Welcome the people that will come and support each other as women and men need to do when they have families who have been afflicted by this disease. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this motion. My colleague, Kevin Lamoureux, and I and others in the Liberal party have been very supportive of efforts related to improving research– [interjection] Inkster.

The MLA for Inkster. Sorry, Mr. Speaker. We have been very supportive of efforts to improve research, diagnosis, treatment, prevention, better understanding of the basic causes of breast cancer and better approach es to treatment. Mr. Speaker, we have, between the two of us, participated in many activities, whether it's walks– my wife was in the dragon boat races last year and in a variety of other activities to try and raise funds or promote better research related to breast cancer, a better understanding. I had the opportunity to work for a number of years at the Health Sciences Centre.

The Cancer Foundation was involved closely with others who were involved in treating or in research related to better understanding the treatments for breast cancer. The good news is that there has been a large amount of progress over the last 30 years. The cure rate for breast cancer, particularly ea rly-stage breast cancer, has improved dramatically from what it used to be, but there are still sad stories. There are still those who are not successfully tr eated and we must not hesitate.

We must not flag in our efforts to continue until we have prevented all breast cancer, we're able to treat it and cure all breas t cancer. There is still, in that respect, a long way to go. Like many other members, I have had close friends who have been involved with, battled with breast cancer, including friends who we lost very sadly after a long battle. I can think of Violet Klassen of Altona, who died–I think it's probably two years ago now–after a long battle with breast cancer.

She and many, many others who have now passed away are part of the reason why we need to be so dedicated to improving access to research, improving the amount of research, the quality of research and improving the treatment. There is, slowly, better understanding of the causes of breast cancer and that information, step by step, Mr. Speaker, both understanding the genetic and environmental causes related to breast cancer, hopefully can put us in a much better position in terms of preventing further cases of breast cancer.

There was a significant step forward in terms of the understanding of what were at that point viewed as side effects of hormone replacement therapy, one of which turned out to be an increase in cancer rates, and we now know that, since the evidence came to light, and since there's been much less use of hormone replacement therapy, the incidence of breast cancer has decreased, and that really is a positive step. We need to continue to find ways in which we can reduce the incidence of breast cancer and make sure that we are doing what we can.

When we're talking about chemicals, there has been long discussion, much of which has not been as conclusive as we would like, related to pesticides and other chemicals as possible causes or promoters of breast cancer, and certainly, I would say, Mr. Speaker, let me sit down so that we can bring this to a vote and hopefully support it and pass it. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is resolution 7, 2008 World Conference on Breast Cancer.

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1695 Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the resolution? [Agreed] An Honourable Member: Unanimously. Mr. Speaker: Unanimously? It has been agreed to unanimously. Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Offi cial Opposition House Leader): Is it the will of the House, Mr. Speaker, to call it 12 o'clock within the Chamber itself? Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to call it 12 o'clock in the Chamber itself? [Agreed] The hour being 12 noon we will recess and we'll reconvene at 1:30 p.m. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH AND HEALTHY LIVING * (10:10) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health and Healthy Living. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Madam Chairperson, good morning to you and the rest of the committee members. Just a couple of short follow-up questions to the pathologist questions that we were on yesterday until I turned it over to the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard).

Could the minister just indicate, because I want to get clarity, she said that the system worked in terms of catching the discrepancies in the tests. Am I correct in understanding that the pathologists' tests have to be double-checked or checked twice by people within DSM? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Thank you to the member for the question and the opportunity to clarify. I can say at the outset that 100 percent of tests are not automatically double-checked by pathologists, and that is not what I meant to imply in the system working.

Wh at I was saying yesterday was that the internal processes that are in place when a complex case is being studied is that it is a natural course of action for pathologists to confer with colleagues about complex cases. Again, I cannot emphasize enough in this discussion that we aren't talking about the kind of test that is slipped under a microscope and a pathologist can check a yes or a no box, if you will. It's very much a question of

interpretation of complex tissue and even more complex illnesses. The measures that are in place within the system in a formal way to have conferring going on about complex cases did afford the opportunity for second looks at some tests.

But it's also fair to say that in the broader contexts, the post-Sinclair and Thomas era, where a culture is every day being nurtured to create an environment of openness and not blame, an environment of truth seeking and not sweeping under the rug of issues, it's that kind of a culture that has been nurtured and continues to be developed that did lead one pathologist at one site to be reviewing the slides of another pathologist from another site that had questions. It was those kinds of questions at the end of March that got raised about some inconsistencies in the

interpretation of those slides. That is when the journey began to be on a path of investigating what one pathologist in his

interpretation felt was not a correct

interpretation by another pathologist. It's within that system that we look at what roles can be. I know the role of government is to ensure that we have a process in place where we can identify problems. We also have a process in place where we need to work to minimize those risks. But in the end, and this point needs to be made–and I know the member is uptight about my longer answer, but I must spend one more minute on this. In the end, these situations, the one in Manitoba and the ones that have occurred across our nation, lead us to remember that as much as we want medicine to be an exact and precise yes-or-no science, it absolutely is not. There is opportunity for error in

interpretation to happen all the time. What we have to ensure, as government and Manitoba Health, is that we put in place the processes where we can identify the problem. What can we do to minimize the risk? We create a critical incident process where we can be assured, as it was the case in this case, that a review was happening and that patients would be notified as soon as possible. That is to say they'd be notified when they could be told something of clinical significance and what would be the go forward plan. So this is not a simple yes or no check box. It's an

1696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008

interpretation and a discussion among the team that needs to happen. Mr. Goertzen: I assure the minister that I'm not uptight. I sometimes tire of redundancy, but I'm not uptight by the length of the answer when there's new information. To use the minister's vernacular, I think we may be on the back nine of these Estimates ourselves. I just don't necessarily want to have to go for another round if we can avoid it.

Could the minister indicate, then, if it's not an automatic double-check of complex cases–I think she was saying in her answer that they're just sort of a culture of pathologists ch ecking with each other. So could she just confirm there isn't any requirement for a pathologist who's looking at a complex case, maybe leaving aside the other cases, to have a double-check or to have that as just something that is within the culture of the DSM? Ms.

Oswald: I can confirm for the member that there is no specific numerical protocol set up at the present time that automatically dictates a second look or a third look at a pathology slide. It certainly is something that is arising in a national discourse about standards and about targets and about errors and

interpretation issues that is coming to the fore. There is certainly a number of improvements in standards and consistency of how things happen in the world of pathology by the very advent of Diagnostic Services Manitoba, and those standards in partnership with other groups like the WRHA, CancerCare Manitoba and, you know, different regional health authorities and Diagnostic Services Manitoba in concert are working continuously to improve those levels of standards and benchmarks, if you will.

But we know, based on what is happening across the nation, that there will be conversations going forward of a national nature that will work towards developing perhaps a minimum number of double- checks that occur. But what I can say here in Manitoba is that we have been given every assurance that these team consults go on to do the

interpretation of these pathology slides. Again, I want to reiterate a point that I made yesterday. We need to remember that, when a pathologist is looking at a slide, it is very much in isolation of the patient's medical history, of the patient's other systems, and this is why the pathologist's

interpretation is but one piece and not the singular piece of diagnostic information that's used to go forward to not only make an assessment of a patient's condition, but to determine the most appropriate treatment protocol. So it is one piece. It's an important piece, and we need to take this seriously, but we can, of course, be sure that they are part of a team in

interpretation. Mr. Goertzen: Madam Chairperson, I thank the minister for the response. We'll probably move through a variety of different topics now. I apologize. I tend to like to do things in a more linear fashion, but it's the nature of how things go in these Estimates process as we move around from a few different topics. One of the things I neglected to ask early on in the process with Estimates was regarding the deputy minister. I understand that she was on a secondment from the WRHA at least for the last couple of years. Is that still the case? Ms. Oswald: Yes, that is still the case. Mr.

Goertzen: I thank the minister for that response. A couple of questions that relate to the College of Physicians and Surgeons. I mean, not specifically to their organization, but maybe to some of the things that interrelate with the college. There have been some questions regarding the end-of-life directive from the college. I did take the opportunity, I found it actually quite interesting, quite an education, to go through the Law Reform Commission recommendation, the early case history of it. I'm fascinated by that part of it, and then the recommendation coming from that.

I know that it caused some degree of surprise, I think, or there was some degree of surprise in the public about the statement because a lot of people, maybe to a lesser extent myself, but to some degree, were surprised that that was the existing situation, the doctors had the final say when it comes to end-of-life scenarios. But it brought it to the public eye, obviously. * (10:20) I'm of the opinion that what exists from the college as a result of the Law Reform Commission is better than what was there before and that it does provide more safeguards for families. It puts a framework in place for cons ultation.

Even though I was surprised that that wa s the state of the current case law, I do think what has been put forward by the college is better than what existed in a somewhat murky case-law environment. It doesn't mean that it's perfect, though. I think maybe there are ways that it could move towards improvement.

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1697 Is there any ongoing dialogue with the department and the college about how to not necessarily rewrite the entir e directive, but how to improve it and strengthen it? Ms. Oswald: I thank the member for the question. I know that his legal-eagle eyes on such a case–I mean that in the most flattering of ways, by the way–he certainly would have read the Manitoba Law Reform Commission report or commentary with a set of eyes that would be quite different from mine.

I'm sure there would be things in there that would spark his interest that would not necessarily be picked up by someone, like me, who does not have law training. We do know from that law commission report, one of the issues that came forward is that certainly it was the College of Physicians and Surgeons, according to that commission, that was the appropriate body to deal with these questions. It was stated quite clearly that politicians would not be the best people to be pursuing that kind of a policy- making endeavour.

They say, in that report, the commission does not favour legislative implementation of these principles. Its preference is to see them embodied in a statement or by-law of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba. So we know that the college did embark on a very thoughtful journey in what the member, quite rightly, articulates is an extremely complex question, arguably about the most important of questions. I appreciate the member saying that the college has gone a good distance or some distance, in any event, to address some of the issues that may have been perceived as gaps existing before.

When I read the statement from the College of Physicians and Surgeons, what leaps out at me is that there is a compulsory element in it today that requires the notification, conversation and consult with the family. I think many of us may have believed that that always existed; it just seems to be a matter of common sense and common human decency. What this statement by the college has pointed out is that it has not been explicitly stated as a policy or as a matter of behaviour in the context of the College of Physicians and Surgeons.

We know that there have been legal statements made in the past about the doctor's inherent right to make a decision about ending life-sustaining treatment where he or she believes it's in the best interests of a patient. This particular statement, as I think the member has acknowledged, does make an improvement in the requirement of doctors to have that discussion with loved ones, with family members about such an important issue.

I'd like to say two other things about this issue, and that is I certainly do believe in my heart–and we have witnessed this in Canada, in the United States– that nobody wins, nobody wins, when patients become political footballs. We saw this happen in Canada with the Rodriguez case. Probably the entire nation or world, I should say, watched what happened to the Schiavo situation, where it became so politically heated, I think, even President Bush got involved in the case. These are the most difficult decisions that a family ever has to face in their lives.

To that end I would say, as the second point that I want to make, that in the last 365 days I don't mind telling the member I've been on this journey myself. I've been on this journey related to the care and the ultimate final days of my mom, just about a year ago, and more recently, this past January, with the journey of possibly my best friends in the world in the loss of their 24-year-old son. Thes e were the most difficult of times, and we're in this debate and this discussion that goes on concerning th e college's policy on this issue.

What I can say strongly and firmly is that there was no voice that was counted on more in these discussions than the voice of the doctor and the counsel of the doctor, who in each case, I believe, did absolutely everything medically available to these individuals, and right down the line, was at the elbow and at the shoulder of people that had to assist in making incredibly difficult decisions.

While the college, I think, has taken some criticism for these very complex issues, I want to say personally that I believe Manitobans owe a debt of gratitude to these doctors that go into this field every single day with families. I believe their hearts break with these families and having more guidance from the college on how to consult with families and what to do, I think, is going to be helpful to everyone. I salute these people. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for her comments and also, personal experiences with her mother and the child of a close friend.

I think all of us have been touched in so me way, and I agree that the vast majority of physicians always have respected the balance that needs to be played between professional advice on medical treatment

1698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 balanced off with the emotions that families, all families, deal with at that time. I also recognize that, even within families, there is sometimes conflict. We think of the case more clearly where there is a family unified against a physician, maybe like the Golubchuk case in Manitoba right now. But there are times when family members disagree to some extent with–even the Schiavo family that the minister indicates. So I know that these are complex cases and, again, I do think that what exists now is better than what existed before.

I'm not entirely sure that there isn't a role for legislators to play in strengthening directives and to ensure that they're not improved. Well, the minister is correct in that 99 percent of the cases that these things aren't an issue and physicians and families are able to come to some sort of an accord. The reality is that almost all legislation that's passed, either here in Manitoba or Ottawa nationally, isn't to deal with the 99 percent, it's to deal with the 1 percent.

Whether that's drinking and driving legislation or any kind of legislation, it typically is to have to regulate the small percentage of society that doesn't act within what we'd consider to be social norms. But in this case, and looking at it and studying it and looking at other jurisdictions, there are other jurisdictions that have proxy legislation, for example, that clearly identify in the absence of a health directive or a directive–you know, living will–who would speak on behalf of the individual who finds himself in an end-of-life scenario.

Some people have suggested to me that that sort of proxy legislation would be helpful in clarifying the situation, the unusual or not common situation that does sometimes occur–who would speak on behalf of the family. * (10:30) Certainly, the Association for Community Living has brought forward some concerns that the minister will be aware of, and I would echo some of those concerns, because they find their loved ones in vulnerable situations all the time, and some of them might not always have a strong advocate for them.

I mean some of the cases that we look at, there are strong advocates in the family that sort of ensure that their loved one has a voice.

There are many individuals who might end up in a situation that don't have a strong advocate either in law or just in practice, and ensuring that there is sort of an advocate, whether it's proxy legislation, and a means to go forward whether there is funding available for court challenges for somebody who didn't have that ability, because I know that even with the new director from the college, the ultimate decisions can be made by the courts, but not everybody will be able to access the courts as a result of their own financial situation.

So there probably are ways in my mind that it can be strengthened to ensure that there's greater certainty to take in the concerns for groups like the Association for Community Living and Manitoba league for disabilities. If the minister wants to comment about whether or not she has an open mind to looking at how to strengthen the directive, I'd certainly be interested in hearing that. Ms. Oswald: I thank the member for those comments.

I think that he makes a very important point about the majority of situations where we have families that are passionate advocates on any side of the issue but in those cases where there are not advocates working in ongoing discussions with the college. I don't think I said this in my last answer, that, you know, of course, we have regular meetings with the College of Physicians and Surgeons on a variety of issues that affect Manitobans.

Of course, those conversations are grounded in ensuring that we strengthen together policies that will help families and patients, bearing in mind the Law Reform Commission advice about keeping a pretty clear line between politicians making decisions on such complex matters and the college issuing by-laws.

I do note with interest the member's comments concerning proxy and the comments from the groups that he mentioned, Association for Community Living and those with disabilities, and will endeavour to do a review of what may be already entrenched in our legislation, whether it's in PHIA, you know, just the amendment to, introduced into the House just the other day. I do know that there are amendments and provisions for improving–and I think the very word in there is "proxy" but I want to double-check–but I'm not sure that it captures proxy in making decisions of this nature for an individual.

So I'm going to commit to investigate that and also look at other existing legislation that may have within it items and issues that our existing legislation in a variety of forms under Health may not already capture.

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1699 I think that it's a good idea that we do that and work to endeavour to make a very imperfect situation and that is dealing with those last days of life perhaps stronger and more accessible to the variety of attitudes and opinions and beliefs that would come to that situation and have a voice to bear on it. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that undertaking. I think that there are ways for this position to be strengthened so I look forward to the end results of her consultation for the consultation on it.

Still on the theme of some of the things that have come from the College of Physicians and Surgeons. There was–I believe it was earlier this year or later last year–some concern raised regarding physicians being able to pick and choose patients in terms of screening their patients as it relates to the complexity of their needs. I understand that the B.C.

College of Physicians and Surgeons has put out a statement–a directive might be too strong of a word–but a statement indicating–and it wasn't that long ago; it was just in April of this year–that it's unethical for doctors in British Columbia to turn away patients because of the complex needs that they might have. Does the minister have any feelings on the need for that sort of a statement here in Manitoba to ensure that Manitoba patients who might already be struggling to find family physicians, that those who have complex needs aren't put at a further disadvantage to finding somebody to meet those needs? Ms.

Oswald: Certainly, we have seen reports in the media and occasional anecdotal evidence on situations like this occurring, where it's real or perceived that the patient is turned away by a fee-for- service doctor, a family doctor for whatever reason and being told that, within the context of the rules in Manitoba, we don't have to take you as a patient. We will absolutely commit to, and have before had conversations with the college about real or alleged behaviours on the part of doctors.

I can certainly say broadly to the member that I believe that our goals are similar in that we want Manitobans who don't have access to a family doctor to have that. We want to ensure that not only does an individual have access to a doctor but to have an element of choice in that. One of the things that we're working very diligently on is the PIN project; the Physician Integrated Network is the full name.

According to what we study to be best practice nationally and internationally, having group practices wherein we not only have doctors that welcome one and all as patients, they do that because they have the resources within their clinic to be able to deal with complex needs. So these Physician Integrated Networks are indeed networks that may have within them a nurse practitioner, diet

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-2-36a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 2nd hansardpdf 36a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9b19e3e2a16eb3b0230c5c79065ad86270e753c5

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