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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, April 8, 2003 Morning Sitting Volume 14, Number 3 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.................................................................................... ..............................Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.................................................................................... ..................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L) ................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Tuesday, April 8, 2003 Morning Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6095 Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries Hon. J. van Dongen J. MacPhail Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6108 Estimates: Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management Hon. S. Hagen J. Bray B. Bennett W. Cobb P. Bell B. Lekstrom J. Les

6095 TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 The House met at 10:04 a.m. Prayers. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Plant: I call Committee of Supply. For the information of members we'll be debating the estimates of the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management in Sec- tion A, and in this chamber we will be debating the esti- mates of the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. [1005] Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 10:06 a.m. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FOOD AND FISHERIES On vote 10: ministry operations, $49,133,000. Hon.

J. van Dongen: I am very pleased to present the 2003-04 budget estimates for the Ministry of Agri- culture, Food and Fisheries. I would like to introduce the staff who are with me: first of all, the acting deputy minister, Bud Graham, and acting assistant deputy minister of resource development and sustainability, Al Martin. Behind me we have the executive director of finance and administration, Jacquie Kendall. I'd very much like to express my thanks to the dedicated and professional staff of the Ministry of Agri- culture, Food and Fisheries.

They have done a great job in the past year on behalf of the people of British Columbia. When we were elected, we were given an over- whelming mandate for change. We as a government are delivering. The B.C. economy grew 1.9 percent in 2002, faster than the 0.7 percent expected at the time of last year's budget. This is according to B.C.'s independ- ent Economic Forecast Council. The council now ex- pects growth in B.C.'s economy to be up to 2.7 percent in the year 2003. With the 2003 budget we are beginning to see the benefits of our fiscal discipline.

The Ministry of Agri- culture, Food and Fisheries met its budget target at $64 million. Our government's new B.C. heartlands eco- nomic strategy is opening up new opportunities for economic growth throughout our entire province. The Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries will sup- port this initiative through its work with the agricul- ture and seafood sectors. As the oldest ministry in the province, I could say that the heartlands strategy is just catching up with what we have always done for coastal and rural com- munities.

Indeed, agriculture and seafood production provides important benefits to rural and coastal com- munities. Farming and fishing, and the large and small businesses that support them, provide stability to local resource-based economies. Our role is to provide an effective policy framework so that the agriculture and seafood industries have the ability to thrive. We state our service plan vision as a competitive and profitable industry providing safe, high-quality food for consumers and export markets.

With that vision guiding us, these industries can expect continued economic growth while managing environmental and social ex- pectations.

The ministry is adapting and changing to address challenges and opportunities by building part- nerships and relationships with food industry organiza- tions, other ministries and other governments, including first nations, through targeted advocacy on behalf of the industry, with effective policy and legislative frame- works and by giving industry the tools to be more self- reliant and less dependent on government. [1010] As I mentioned, the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries brought spending in on budget at $64 million in the past year.

This year we'll bring in our budget at $49 million, and by '04-05 we'll be on target for a budget of $45 million. The bulk of the reductions for the coming year, $9 million, comes from phasing out the Okanagan Valley Tree Fruit Authority. The final stage of the program will be delivered by Investment Agriculture. The plan for the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries was a tough one. The ministry chose to make changes early on, to refocus what we do and how we deliver. As I told this House last year, six district offices were to be closed by March 31 of this year, and this has been done.

The long-planned closures resulted in more than $1 million in savings. Other savings already an- nounced include almost $3 million for a reduction to the whole-farm program and close to $1 million for the crop insurance premium subsidy. The Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries is now able to fully focus on achieving its vision, spe- cifically through six key areas: industry competitive- ness, food safety and quality, risk management, envi- ronmental sustainability, fisheries and aquaculture management, and corporate services.

For industry competitiveness we want to see an agriculture, fisher- ies, aquaculture and food sector that is competitive in a global economy while providing economic benefit and stability to British Columbia's rural and coastal communities. We can do that by taking on an advo- cacy role to ensure that B.C. farm and fisheries inter- ests are considered in government programs, services and regulations; international and interprovincial trade negotiations; and a fair share of federal funding.

We're helping industry with self-funding systems so they can increase self-reliance and reduce their de- pendence on government. Last year we started the shift towards industry-elected councils. New dairy industry and tree fruit councils were established. We want a food system that provides consumers and customers with full confidence in the safety and

6096 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 quality of B.C. food, agriculture and seafood products. Last year, for instance, staff handled significant health and plant issues, such as E. coli in irrigation water, in- sect problems that threatened hay imports and support in isolating the listeria problem in a small cheese plant on Vancouver Island. We signed two agreements to control foreign animal diseases and the gypsy moth. We believe B.C. can have both environmental sus- tainability and resource development.

This year we'll roll out the environmental farm planning strategy that we finalized last year to get environmental farm plans and best management practices in place. Our goal is to have 50 local government agriculture advisory commit- tees that represent the major agricultural lands in the province. There are 18 local agriculture committees in place already. We'll keep working with municipalities to facilitate support of local government agriculture by- laws, and we'll advocate with other agencies for access to land and water for farming and resource stewardship.

This year we will see the signing of the new na- tional agriculture policy framework, which will bring a major change in risk management programs such as crop insurance. Over the next five years Canada and B.C. farmers will have new tools, services and options to strengthen their businesses, increase prosperity and meet the demands of consumers at home and abroad. Part of that will be continuing to move crop insurance to the private sector as appropriate. [1015] Under corporate services, one of our main goals is to streamline legislation and regulations.

Last year we said we wanted to reduce the regulatory burden by one-third over three years. We are on track. We re- duced unnecessary or duplicated requirements by more than 12 percent in the past year. Our final core business area is fisheries and aqua- culture management. Our goal is to see an optimum economic benefit to British Columbians from fisheries and aquaculture while protecting the environment. We're already on that path. We have developed one of the most comprehensive regulatory regimes in the world for our aquaculture industry.

Government has a responsibility to put in place good public policy and to reduce risks by putting in place tough regulations and strict monitoring and en- forcement to make sure the public interest is protected. With respect to aquaculture, in the past year we were able to finish putting in place a strict regulatory framework before lifting the moratorium.

That means a new escape-prevention regulation, a new waste man- agement regulation, improved fish health manage- ment, addressing siting and relocation issues, support- ing alternative technologies and research and devel- opment, and putting in place a comprehensive compli- ance and enforcement strategy. Indeed, we will con- tinue to review and improve regulations to make sure that our environmental goals are met. Last year we worked out with DFO an allocation decision for pacific hake that supports processing 100 percent of the harvest onshore in B.C. communities.

This was a major achievement in support of B.C. jobs. We developed a proposal for the creation of the Canada–B.C. Council of Fisheries Ministers. This new forum would update the agreement on the manage- ment of pacific salmon fisheries issues. We initiated a full analysis of strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats of the marine, commercial and recreational fisheries that will help us address changes to support revitalization of the industry.

The ministry continued the surveillance and moni- toring of fish health issues such as IHN and sea lice, and we received cabinet approval to develop a strategy to improve the provincial government's influence on federal decisions regarding the management of marine, commercial and recreational fisheries. In conclusion, I am pleased to be here to talk about the plans of the B.C. Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, and I'm proud that our government's fiscal plan is working. It hasn't always been easy. There are more changes required, but we are beginning to see the benefits.

We are now able to concentrate on encouraging further growth and investment in B.C.'s heartlands, pro- viding jobs and economic activity for both native and non-native communities. The Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries work will be taking place within the context of government's overall fiscal plan — a fiscal plan that is on track and ahead of schedule, a plan that is prudent, responsible and focused on the future. Thank you for the opportunity for those opening comments. J. MacPhail: Thank you to the minister.

I note that the minister introduced two of his senior executives as "acting." Can the minister tell me what activities he conducted yesterday as minister on behalf of his minis- try? Hon. J. van Dongen: I was in a meeting interview- ing candidates for deputy minister. J. MacPhail: Is it the practice of the Liberal gov- ernment that ministers interview for deputy ministers? Hon. J. van Dongen: It is a practice in terms of the final stage, the final decision, of hiring a deputy minister. J. MacPhail: Perhaps the minister could describe that.

At what stage was it yesterday, and what exactly was the role of the minister? Hon. J. van Dongen: I was involved in a process that involved the interviewing of the final two candi- dates for the selection of a deputy minister. [1020] J. MacPhail: Just to confirm, then, that this is the practice of the Liberal government — that ministers involve themselves in interviewing for candidates for deputy minister. Is that correct? Hon. J. van Dongen: I can simply state for the member that I was invited to this meeting by the Pre-

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6097 mier, and that's the extent to which I can comment on the question. J. MacPhail: But that the minister was involved…. It wasn't a confirmation hearing. It was that there were two candidates and that the Premier asked the minister to attend. That's the information around hiring a dep- uty minister. Who else was at the meeting? Hon. J. van Dongen: I simply confirm for the member that I was at a meeting yesterday at the Pre- mier's invitation to interview two candidates. J.

MacPhail: I'm going to explore recent events with the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, both the events that led up to his resignation and the recent reappointment. The minister's biography on the minis- try website that's been posted called that little period a hiatus, so I want to discuss the details that led to the hiatus and what caused the removal of the hiatus and the minister being back in cabinet. The minister, of course, in his opening remarks talked about the ability of his ministry to now perform compli- ance and enforcement responsibilities.

These are line items, and this is what I want to discuss with the minister, including his ability and his credibility. I must say that the opening question leaves me troubled, Mr. Chair. Recently the CBC television program Disclosure ran a story that featured the controversy that forced the minister to resign. I want to run through that story and get to the truth of what happened. The government has not released the special prosecutor's report. There is a past practice of special prosecutors' reports being re- leased. In this particular case, the government has de- cided not to.

We hear from the Attorney General's communications director that there was no criminal intent. I have no other details, so I need to explore this here with the minister. T hi s g o e s b ac k to a f i s h f arm owne d b y St o lt . I t 's t he biggest player in the B.C. salmon farming industry. It do- nated $12,000 over the last two years to the Liberal Party. It donated zero to any other political party, as far as I can tell. It was reported that this farm suffered a massive es- cape and that thousands of Atlantic salmon poured into B.C. waters.

According to the CBC, this was Stolt's second major escape in the past year. Could the minister explain why his ministry chose not to lay charges? Hon. J. van Dongen: The member indicated that she is reviewing the issues involving my conduct as a minister. I will simply confirm that I did step aside when I was informed that I was under investigation by the police on that issue. They have done their investi- gation. The special prosecutor that was named has re- ported out, and she should consider his work to de- termine what happened in the process. [1025] J. MacPhail: Oops. Oops.

I'd be happy to consider his work, except that the government won't release the report. The special prosecutor's report is being kept se- cret by the government. I asked for the report. The min- ister now — the minister, then-backbencher — was sit- ting in the House when I asked for it. It has not been released. The minister is back in cabinet. There is no one else I can ask these questions of, so please — through you, Mr. Chair, to the minister — answer the questions. Could the minister explain why his ministry chose not to lay charges against Stolt? Hon.

J. van Dongen: The member should approach the Attorney General on the issue of the Crown coun- sel's report, if that's her interest. J. MacPhail: The Crown counsel's report on not laying charges against Stolt? Hon. J. van Dongen: The Crown counsel report that was done in terms of my conduct as a minister on that file. J. MacPhail: That's not what I'm asking questions about. I'm asking questions about the actual events. We're not going to get the special prosecutor's report. The Attorney General is not going to release it. He's made that quite clear, even after asking.

These aren't anything to do with the special prosecutor's report, I assume. I don't know — unless there are answers in the special prosecutor's report. If those answers to my questions are contained, I'd be happy to review that report, but this government isn't going to release it. It's got to do with the minister's compliance. My questions are around the minister's ability to enforce regulations and ensure compliance. He referred to that himself in his opening remarks. That's what all my questions are about. Could the minister explain why his ministry did not lay charges against Stolt? Hon.

J. van Dongen: I can assure the member that all of the procedures for investigation and enforcement will be maintained and continued within our ministry. We have always been very clear with the industry, both before being in government and in government, that we would effectively enforce regulations and that we viewed it important public policy that the govern- ment is a third party enforcing regulations against the industry. If the member wants to canvass these issues, she — as I said — should approach the Attorney Gen- eral in terms of my conduct, and she did indicate that's why she's asking the questions. J.

MacPhail: Sorry. I'm going to keep asking my questions, and this minister can keep trying to stall and stonewall if he wishes. It has nothing to do with the criminal investigation, unless the minister can prove it does by releasing the report. But this government is not going to release the report. Interjection. J. MacPhail: A c t u a l l y , w e d i d . T h e M i n i s t e r o f F i - nance comes in and always adds his helpful comments.

6098 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 "Yes, we did release some special prosecutor reports." Perhaps he'd like to…. Hon. J. van Dongen: Simply to confirm for the member that if there's an allegation of non-compliance or if there's a report of something like an escape, our ministry will investigate and does investigate through the compliance and enforcement branch. They write a report. The report goes to Crown counsel, and the charging decision is made by Crown counsel. [1030] J.

MacPhail: E v e n t ho u g h t he M i ni s t r y o f A g ri c u l - ture, Food and Fisheries didn't lay charges, the Minis- try of Water, Land and Air Protection was conducting an investigation. Internal documents show that Water, Land and Air Protection was going after Stolt Sea Farms. Could the minister tell this House what his role was in advocating whether to pursue or not pursue Water, Land and Air Protection's investigation? Hon. J. van Dongen: This matter was fully investi- gated by the special prosecutor, and that ends the mat- ter. It was all reviewed by that prosecutor. J.

MacPhail: What the public knows about the spe- cial prosecutor is that there was no criminal intent. We know that from the AG's communications director, not from the special prosecutor and not because the report has been released. That's all we know. Could the minister tell me, then, how the public is supposed to find out the answers to these questions? Hon. J. van Dongen: That issue is not within the control of my ministry. As I said, I'm referring the member to the Attorney General and the Ministry of Attorney General on her question. J. MacPhail: Sorry, that isn't going to work.

The Attorney General has already been asked to release the report. He has refused. Would the minister like to stop estimates until he actually gets legal advice on this question about how he's supposed to conduct himself in estimates? These are legitimate questions. They go right to the responsibility of the minister. In fact, they would be legitimate questions if the special prosecution investi- gation had not occurred. They would be entirely in order. I'm not quite sure why the minister is hiding behind the special prosecution, about which nobody knows anything, and why the government refuses.

I asked the question about what the role was that the minister played in either helping or hindering the Water, Land and Air Protection investigation into Stolt because of comments made recently by members of the Public Service Employees for Environmental Ethics. People in that organization claim there was a great deal of secrecy surrounding the decision of one ministry to press charges versus another ministry not to. These are employees of the minister's ministry. They have a pub- lic role to play. Could the minister explain whether that discrepancy as alleged by them is legitimate or not? Hon.

J. van Dongen : Again, I would refer the mem- ber to the Attorney General. She may not like the minis- try's answer, but it's something that I can't answer and I can't provide. J. MacPhail: Why can't the minister provide the answer to this? What has this question possibly got to do with the criminal investigation? Were these ques- tions asked during the special prosecution investiga- tion? Hon. J. van Dongen: The matter was fully investi- gated. All of the issues that the special prosecutor con- sidered relevant were available to him. Again, I refer the member to the Ministry of Attorney General. J. MacPhail: No.

I'm going to continue, Mr. Chair, to ask this minister these questions, because it's his respon- sibility to answer. It's his responsibility to answer these questions. He was reappointed after what his website calls a hiatus. The reason for the occurrence of the hiatus and the ruling of reappointing him is secret. This is the only time that members of this Legislature have to ask this minister questions directly about his responsibilities. These questions have to do with compliance and en- forcement.

The minister himself introduced in his open- ing remarks the fact of how proud he was of his record on compliance and enforcement. I'm prodding that claim. That's what I'm doing here. These questions have nothing to do with the special prosecution, unless the minister can prove that they do by revealing that report.

In the Fisheries ministry service plan on page 8, it states: "An improved and harmonized compliance and enforcement regime for the finfish and shellfish aquacul- ture industry." The paragraph continues to say that this minister is the "provincial lead on all compliance issues associated with the industry." Can the minister explain what Water, Land and Air Protection's role is, then, if this ministry has the lead? [1035] Hon.

J. van Dongen: We do have a compliance and enforcement agreement — a memorandum of under- standing — with the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection on compliance and enforcement procedures. That agreement sets out the respective responsibilities of each ministry for the different pieces of legislation and the different requirements that we need compli- ance on. J. MacPhail: What's the date of that memorandum of understanding? Hon. J. van Dongen: To the best of our recollection, the date of that agreement is approximately February or March 2002.

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6099 J. MacPhail: March or April of 2002, I think, is what the minister said — was it? He can just nod. Interjection. J. MacPhail: February or March of 2002. Thank you. What happens if there's a conflict between the two ministries? Hon. J. van Dongen: The ultimate decisions on enforcement procedures are made by the ministry whose responsibility the particular act is, which that investigation was carried out under. For example, if it's a Waste Management Act issue, the ultimate responsi- bility is the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection.

If it were a fish escape issue, it would be the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries under the provincial Fisheries Act. J. MacPhail: Could I have a copy of the memoran- dum of understanding? Hon. J. van Dongen: Certainly. We can provide a copy of that document to the member. J. MacPhail: Yes, I'd appreciate that before esti- mates finish, please. I'm sure that some officials are listening. Maybe some of my questions would be an- swered by it. What happens, according to the memorandum of understanding, if one ministry wants an investigation and the other does not?

Is it the ministry who has the lead under the legislation that gets to decide whether to proceed or not? [1040] Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, the ministry with the respective responsibility for a particular act under which a particular investigation would be conducted has the final authority about whether or not an investi- gation is conducted. Again, if it were an investigation under the Waste Management Act, the Ministry of Wa- ter, Land and Air Protection would have the final au- thority to investigate that decision.

If it were something under the provincial Fisheries Act, the Ministry of Ag- riculture, Food and Fisheries would have the authority to make the decision on whether or not to investigate. J. MacPhail: Who has the responsibility for investi- gating fish farm salmon escapes? Hon. J. van Dongen: The Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries under the provincial Fisheries Act and the escape regulation. J. MacPhail: So that's the minister's direct responsi- bility.

Let me ask this then: on a written account of the Disclosure story relating to the Stolt Farm salmon es- cape, it said: "We know Stolt wanted the investigation stopped." Did this minister know that Stolt wanted the inves- tigation stopped? How did he know that? Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, that matter was part of the review done by the special prosecutor, and I will refer the member to my earlier answer. J. MacPhail: Well, I'm sorry. The minister is just digging himself deeper and deeper. He just admitted that he has the authority for investigating salmon farm escapes. He's the lead on it.

He's the minister responsi- ble. He's got to answer the questions. Please stop ob- fuscating. What is the minister trying to hide? What's going on here? He's trying to hide behind the criminal investigation report that the government won't release, and now he's trying to hide from his own duties. How did he get back in cabinet? What's he doing back in cabinet if he won't answer these questions? Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, as set out in the com- pliance and enforcement agreement, I can assure the member that all escapes and all reports of escapes are investigated by the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.

J. MacPhail: Here's an e-mail that was exchanged by departments. It comes from…. Let me just say that one e-mail is from the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection around this escape. "Thanks, Lance, for this and also the meeting agenda. On this one I'm a little curious why Jon" — J-O-N — "is still apparently dab- bling. I am also curious why the Ministry of Agricul- ture, Food and Fisheries would be criticizing us for undertaking an investigation or whatever." That comes from Water, Land and Air Protection.

Now, we have searched out how many Jons — J-O-Ns — there are in the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. There is only one Jon — J-O-N — that this could be referring to, which was, I think, this minister's previous deputy, Jon O'Riordan. Is it? Was that the minister's previous deputy? Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, I refer the member to the fact that a special prosecutor has reviewed this mat- ter and has reported out. That ends the issue. J. MacPhail: I'm sure the minister would like it to end the issue, but he's back in cabinet, and he's got to earn his living.

The way he does that is to answer for his ministerial responsibilities. Here's a simple ques- tion: did the minister ever have a deputy minister named Jon O'Riordan? Hon. J. van Dongen: No. [1045] J. MacPhail: Who is Jon O'Riordan, then? Hon. J. van Dongen: There is a fellow named Dr. Jon O'Riordan, who is the Deputy Minister of Sustain- able Resource Management.

6100 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 J. MacPhail: Ah, yes. Here's another memo from Water, Land and Air Protection: "I understand from Jon…." J-O-N — and I'm sorry…. The minister is cor- rect. Isn't this good that we're having this exchange? The minister is correct. The only Jon — J-O-N — that could be at the deputy minister level is in Sustainable Resource Management. Thank you.

Here's another memo from Water, Land and Air Protection: "I understand from Jon" — J-O-N — "that a great deal of discussion is continuing at John van Don- gen's level regarding the follow-up investigation we initiated into the Sergeant Pass Stolt fish escape that occurred in the spring of 2000. The criticism of our ac- tion is coming from Stolt, B.C. Salmon Farmers Asso- ciation and the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fish- eries." There's a memo that's in the public domain.

That e-mail exchange pretty much shows that this minister was involved in the discussions around the escape from Stolt into — sorry, I want to make sure I've got the pass right — Sergeant Pass. The minister has admitted that it's his ministry responsible for enforce- m e n t a r o u n d f i s h f a r m e s c a p e s . W h a t w e r e t h o s e d i s - cussions? Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, the matter was fully investigated, and I refer the member to my earlier an- swer. J.

MacPhail: In the same e-mail exchange, another public servant that I've already read from states: "I'm curious why the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries would be criticizing us for undertaking an investigation." Let's just generalize, then. That's what actually happened. The minister refuses to answer any of these questions. He's back in cabinet, God knows w h y . G o d k n o w s w h y h e ' s b a c k i n c a b i n e t . H e w o n ' t come clean, so let's just generalize.

If there's a dispute about investigating a salmon farm escape, whose decision is it in the final analysis to actually pursue the investigation and recommend — if needed — charges? Hon. J. van Dongen: A s I s t at e d i n m y e arl i e r an- swer, under the compliance and enforcement agree- ment it sets out the responsibility for the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries to enforce the provin- cial Fisheries Act.

An investigation is conducted with respect to any complaint or any allegation of an escape or any report of an escape, and the results of that inves- tigation are forwarded to Crown counsel for a charging decision. J. MacPhail: If it's this ministry's responsibility to do the investigation on fish farm escapes, under what circumstances would the minister feel it necessary to criticize Water, Land and Air Protection for doing and for participating in such an investigation? Hon.

J. van Dongen: Again, the matter of my con- duct on that file was fully reviewed by a special prose- cutor, and I refer the member to that process. [1050] J. MacPhail: Mr. Chair, I was asking a general ques- tion. Maybe the minister could look at the memoran- dum of understanding, of cooperation, between the two ministers about compliance and enforcement. Un- der what circumstances would the Ministry of Agricul- ture, Food and Fisheries be advising Water, Land and Air Protection that an investigation was inappropriate? Just generally — just talk about it generally. Hon.

J. van Dongen: Again, I refer the member to the compliance and enforcement memorandum of un- derstanding which sets out the respective responsibili- ties and authorities for each ministry that has legisla- tion that governs fish farms. In the case of a waste management infraction, the decisions around that would be governed by the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection. If it's a fish health issue or fish escape issue, the decisions around that are the responsibility of the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. J. MacPhail: Okay.

Well, I'd be happy to take a five- minute recess if the minister can give me that memo- randum of understanding now. Hon. J. van Dongen: My understanding is that a copy of the agreement will be available to us shortly. J. MacPhail: It's clear from the documents about the original investigation for which this minister was re- sponsible that he did object to an investigation being done by the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection — very clear by the exchange of memos. We'll just have to see what the memorandum of understanding says in terms of this minister's ability to stop an investigation.

Does the minister often have conversations with major fish farm operators that are under investigation or potentially under investigation? What system is in place for the minister to know about potential investi- gations and guide his behaviour accordingly? Hon. J. van Dongen: My conduct with respect to a fish farm file is fully investigated. I want to simply say that the member has her options to deal with the At- torney General on that.

Other than that, I can assure the member that the normal procedures of staff doing an investigation, writing a report to Crown counsel if they consider it necessary — all of those procedures — are in place. J. MacPhail: What are the procedures? Hon. J. van Dongen: The investigations staff have a policy and procedures manual that they follow in the process of conducting an investigation and writing a report in that investigation. J. MacPhail: When do they notify the minister of investigations? The minister clearly knew about this investigation into Stolt. He's back in cabinet now. What's changed?

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6101 Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, the procedures that staff would follow are set out in their policy and pro- cedures manual. J. MacPhail: Could the minister tell me what those procedures are, how they've changed since the time that…? I mean, the minister hasn't denied that he called Stolt and told them about the investigation. That's part of the public record. He himself admitted to that. Now, people are judging his ability to actually do his job on the basis of that, but it's not secret. It's part of the public record.

How have the policies and proce- dures changed, post–criminal investigation? [1055] Hon. J. van Dongen: I can report to the member that in the past year and a half, there's been a lot of work done in terms of improving the escape regulation itself. There were improvements done in the policy and procedures manual and further upgrading of that. There was further training of enforcement staff done, and there were two additional enforcement staff de- tailed to deal with aquaculture issues and fisheries issues. J.

MacPhail: Again, what's changed in the policy and procedures about informing the minister of inves- tigations? Hon. J. van Dongen: I'm not aware of the details of changes in the policy and procedures manual that have been done in the past year. J. MacPhail: Well, that's interesting. How many fish farms are under investigation right now? Hon. J. van Dongen: We don't have that detail with us today, Mr. Chairman, but we can get the member that information. J. MacPhail: My gosh. I wonder if the minister didn't think it was going to come up. Maybe he thought I was going to be absent or something.

The fact that the Premier put him back in cabinet without any change in the policies and procedures required of him means he got off scot-free. Well, here we are. It's unbe- lievable that the minister doesn't have the information about how many fish farms are under investigation now. How many have been under investigation in the last year? Hon. J. van Dongen: We can get that information for the member, Mr. Chairman. J. MacPhail: How would the public have any reas- surance that this minister isn't talking to fish farms under investigation, when he can't even provide me with that information?

How many fish farms in the last year have been found to be in non-compliance with either Water, Land and Air Protection on their specific responsibilities for fish farming or the Ministry of Ag- riculture, Food and Fisheries regulations in their spe- cific area of responsibility? Hon. J. van Dongen: In response to the member, I can inform her that on an annual basis, there is a com- pliance and enforcement report which is tabled. It is put on the website of the respective ministries.

There was one tabled and made public sometime last spring for the previous fiscal year, and sometime this coming s p ri ng t he re wi l l b e a r e p o rt o n t he p as t y e ar b y b o t h ministries. I can't report on the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection's data, but I will get the data for the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. [1100] J. MacPhail: Maybe the minister could just hint at what the trend is in compliance or non-compliance. Hon. J. van Dongen: I'll use escapes as an example — fish escapes from fish farms.

Based on the require- ments of the new escape regulation, there are very stringent reporting requirements, so we're seeing more diligence in reporting. We're seeing more investiga- tions in the short term, but we're seeing a higher level of compliance with the legislation and a reduced num- ber of escapes. J. MacPhail: When did the new regulations come into effect? Hon. J. van Dongen: We put new escape regula- tions in place in April of 2002. J. MacPhail: It's been reported by the David Suzuki Foundation — Jim Fulton…. I'm sure the minister will disregard his value, but he is a world-renowned spokesperson.

Here's what he said: "A company like Stolt has huge clout. When they call and want to go to the Premier's office or to the minister's office, they're in, and they're in at the top. They don't deal with bureau- crats. They don't deal with enforcement." Let's just review that statement. According to the policy and procedures or the memorandum of under- standing about investigation, where do people like the companies go when they have concerns about investi- gations? Where do environmental groups go? Where do first nations go when they have concerns about in- vestigations? Hon.

J. van Dongen: I want to confirm for the member that with respect to compliance and enforce- ment issues, our staff are open to meetings with all stakeholders. Similarly, the minister's office is also open to meetings with all stakeholders. I can assure the member that I do listen to things that Jim Fulton and others say and to reports that are written. I've always had a policy of being open to all comments with respect to the aquaculture industry and, in particular, comments of concern on environ- mental issues and the wild fishery. We pay attention to all of the comments of our critics.

6102 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 J. MacPhail: I'm sure the minister wouldn't now be standing up and saying that if people have concerns about an investigation, they go to the minister. I'm say- ing: where do they go to? Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, the member is asking questions about my conduct, which was part of a spe- cial prosecutor report. I refer her to my earlier answer. [1105] J. MacPhail: Actually, I'm asking questions about how you're not conducting yourself. I would hope the changes in the policies and procedures show that the minister doesn't get involved in investigations.

I'm surprised he didn't stand up and say: "That's right. I don't get involved in investigations." My question is: where in the ministry do people concerned about investigations go? Hon. J. van Dongen: Based on the compliance and enforcement MOU that we have, people can go to the manager of licensing and compliance. They can go to a fisheries officer or a conservation officer. J. MacPhail: Well, that's good to know. Clearly, Stolt Sea Farm didn't know that. Let me just read this letter into the record from Stolt Sea Farm vice- president Dale Blackburn of west coast operations.

The Stolt vice-president sent off a stern letter to the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection, Joyce Murray, dated October 4, 2001. I break here for a moment to show I'm very anxious to see how this procedure has changed. That's why I'm asking for all of this information. From Mr. Blackburn, the vice-president of Stolt Sea Farm: "Dear Hon. Joyce Murray: "It is my understanding that your ministry's Nanaimo office has written a report regarding the August 2000 farmed salmon escape from our Sergeant Pass site near Gilford Island and has recommended to Crown counsel that charges be laid against our company under

section 55.1 of the federal Fisheries Act. In addition, I'm led to believe that the fundamental reason for this decision, a year after the fact, is to emphasize the serious nature of any escape of farmed salmon. "Please rest assured that no one takes the escape of farmed salmon more seriously than those of us who depend upon the sale of this product for our livelihood. No one, not even the most strident conservation officer, could possibly believe that a salmon farmer takes an escape lightly.

"Accordingly, I am very concerned about the recommendation to lay charges, particularly as this unfortunate event was thoroughly investigated at the time by the Ministry of Fisheries, which found that due diligence on our part had been observed and that there were no grounds for laying charges under provincial regulations. In addition, the recent meeting" — this is interesting — "our industry had with yourself and your colleagues Hon. Stan Hagen and Hon.

John van Dongen buoyed myself and other salmon farmers, as the tone of the meeting indicated a strong willingness on everyone's part to repair and rebuild troubled relationships. Unfortunately…" Interjection. J. MacPhail: Sorry. The Attorney General is objecting, and I accept the Attorney General's objection to naming people. Unfortunately, I'm reading from the record of a letter, but I accept that. I'll try to adjust it in the future. It is important, though, Mr. Chair, just as I cited. It is important in this area because the people named have been Fisheries ministers at the same time as well.

I was trying to distinguish on that basis. Anyway, the letter says: "…the actions of your staff in Nanaimo indicate that not much has changed, at least within the bureaucracy. Instead of working with us, I see this recommendation to lay charges as just one more effort to discredit British Columbia's salmon farming industry and our operations here in Campbell River. "At the same time, it is no secret that the government's taxpayer-funded legal resources outstrip that of any company in the province, including ours.

As a result, having to defend ourselves only adds to the costs we are already incurring in a weakened market. [1110] "Minister, in view of the fact that this case has already been investigated and that no cause for further action was found, I am requesting that the recommendation to lay charges against Stolt Sea Farm be dropped. At the same time, I would like to suggest that your staff be asked to work with us rather than against us so as to ensure the viability of our industry as well as the important stewardship and environmental responsibilities we share as British Columbians.

"I look forward to hearing from you in the days ahead and hope that this issue can be put behind us as we work together to build a strong and sustainable aquaculture industry, one that demonstrates by its day- to-day operations a solid commitment to our communities and the natural environment we all value and respect." "Yours very truly, Dale Blackburn, vice-president, west coast operations" It was carbon-copied to the then — the former and now again — Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisher- ies.

It was copied to the Minister of Sustainable Re- source Management, copied to the Attorney General, copied to the MLA from Vancouver Island north and copied to Earl Warnock, the regional director of Van- couver Island. I'll go through some quotes and ask the minister what's changed. This is his responsibility now. This is w h y t h e m i n i s t e r i s b a c k i n c a b i n e t , I w o u l d a s s u m e .

From the letter: "In addition, the recent meeting…with yourself" — meaning the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection — "and your colleagues" — the Minister of Sustainable Resource Management and the Minister of Fisheries — "buoyed myself and other salmon farm- ers, as the tone of the meeting indicated a strong will- ingness on everyone's part to repair and rebuild trou- bled relationships." That was a meeting that the minister had at the time of an investigation. So what's changed?

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6103 Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, I repeat for the member. I have acknowledged publicly that I have made a mis- take with respect to that particular fish farm file, the Stolt file. The matter has been fully investigated by the special prosecutor, and he has reported out under the normal procedure to the Ministry of Attorney General. J. MacPhail: Yes, and what's changed? Hon.

J. van Dongen: In response to the member's question, we did develop the compliance and enforce- ment agreement between the two ministries, which sets out the respective responsibility of each ministry under the legislation they're responsible for. J. MacPhail: Mr. Chair, I'm just going to ask for a minute, if I may. I just got the document — thank you to the minister — and I'll just take a minute to look through it. The minister is referring me to it. So, thank you. I'll just need two minutes. Interjection. J. MacPhail: Oh, sure. That's good, yeah. Interjections. J.

MacPhail: I'm going to try and get some outside help on looking through this document. The minister just gave me the compliance and enforcement docu- ment. I noted that Water, Land and Air Protection just signed off on it earlier this year, '03, so we'll have to…. The Stolt Sea Farm vice-president felt buoyed after that meeting. Fair enough. The minister clearly isn't going to talk about that period of time. He thinks he doesn't have to answer questions on that particular letter.

Tell me this: if there hadn't been a criminal inves- tigation into the minister's behaviour, would he still refuse to answer questions about that letter? Hon. J. van Dongen: The question is a hypothetical question. The matter has been investigated. I refer the member to the Ministry of Attorney General. J. MacPhail: Well, it's actually not a hypothetical question, because the avenue that the minister is offering me to explore these very issues has been closed off by his government. The door has been slammed; a veil of se- crecy is over it. I'm not sure what the government is try- ing to hide.

I'm not quite sure what the minister himself is trying to hide. But these letters would be on the public record regardless of the criminal investigation into the Minister of Fisheries, and the minister is the minister. He's back in office. He's making a big salary. He's got a lot of power. He's still got powers over these very issues. He's the minister responsible for salmon escapes, and he refuses to answer questions on them. It's ridiculous, Mr. Chair — absolutely ridiculous. [1115] Mr. Blackburn refers to efforts to repair relation- ships, and he means relationships with the salmon aquaculture industry.

How's that going? Hon. J. van Dongen: I can state for the record that my compliance and enforcement staff have always had a standing order to investigate and enforce thoroughly and effectively. They've always had that standing or- der, and they have that standing order today. J. MacPhail: No, Mr. Blackburn refers to repairing troubled relationships. I want to know the specifics on that. Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, on the issue the member is asking about, my personal conduct was fully investi- gated, and I refer the member to my previous answer. J. MacPhail: Okay, let me try this.

How's his rela- tionship with environmental groups around salmon aquaculture? Has he had meetings, such as the one he had with Stolt Sea Farm, with environmental groups? Hon. J. van Dongen: I'm open to meet with envi- ronmental groups at any time. I've had many meetings over my term as minister with environmental groups, including one as recently as a week ago. J. MacPhail: On fish farms? Hon. J. van Dongen: Yes. J. MacPhail: How's it going? I guess the minister is willing to answer this question: how's it going? Oh, I'm sorry. As recently as a week ago in his ca- pacity as Minister of Fisheries? Hon.

J. van Dongen: The meeting I had a week ago was as an MLA. As I said, I'm open to discussions with environmental groups at any time. Our ministry has had a process through the salmon aquaculture advi- sory committee, and we are very anxious to work to- gether with the Pacific Fisheries Resource Conservation Council recommendation of a salmon aquaculture re- view process that involves all stakeholders — and one that we're looking to engage with John Fraser to put that process in place…. J. MacPhail: Who was at the meeting a week ago, both on the government side and the environmental group side? Hon.

J. van Dongen: It was simply a meeting I had as an MLA with an environmental group. J. MacPhail: Which environmental group? Hon. J. van Dongen: Coastal Alliance for Aquacul- ture Reform. J. MacPhail: Coastal Alliance for Aquaculture Re- form. Sorry. Who's in that alliance? Hon. J. van Dongen: I can give the member a list of the groups that are part of that coalition, but they do

6104 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 include groups such as the Raincoast Research, Water- shed Watch, Living Oceans Society, David Suzuki Foundation, Raincoast Conservation Society, Georgia Strait Alliance. J. MacPhail: Tell me: as a local MLA, what are the interests that the minister has in salmon aquaculture? Are there any aquaculture farms in the minister's riding? [1120] Hon. J. van Dongen: I certainly have an interest in all of the issues that impact rural and coastal communi- ties.

Our government has been very committed to try- ing to foster and develop new jobs and new economic opportunity in coastal and rural communities. I've al- ways taken an interest, as an MLA, in both environ- mental and economic issues. J. MacPhail: When was the minister told that he had been cleared of charges by the special prosecution and that he would be back in cabinet? Hon. J. van Dongen: I received a phone call from a member of the media. J. MacPhail: When was he told by the Premier? Hon. J. van Dongen: Sometime after I received a call from the media. J. MacPhail: And when was that? Hon.

J. van Dongen: I received a phone call from the Premier sometime after the press release that was put out by the criminal justice branch. J. MacPhail: How many meetings, then, did the minister have on aquaculture as an MLA? Was he con- tinually involved in the file throughout that period of time? Hon. J. van Dongen: I stepped aside as minister, and Minister Hagen took over responsibility for the ministry. I was not involved in the operations of the ministry. J. MacPhail: My question was how involved he was in the matter. I am getting more and more troubled by the minis- ter's answers.

He refuses to answer questions about his involvement in aquaculture and his involvement in compliance and enforcement. He refers the matter to a special prosecution report that will never be revealed by this government — never. It appears that he's been meeting groups while he was a backbencher — that has absolutely nothing to do with his MLA responsibilities — and while he was still under investigation. He didn't know that he wasn't under investigation anymore — or did he? He's meeting with the industry by himself, and we're supposed to just accept all of this.

The minister refuses to answer questions about his behaviour and his role and his credibility. From the time the minister stepped down as Minis- ter of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, how many meet- ings did he have with anybody concerned with aqua- culture until he was reappointed? Hon. J. van Dongen: I simply confirm for the member that as a minister and in my involvement as an MLA, I've always been open to meeting with all stakeholders. It's as simple as that. The member is cre- ating an issue where there is no issue. We have been open to meeting with all stakeholders, including envi- ronmental groups. J.

MacPhail: How many meetings with stake- holders — whether industry, environmental or first nations — did the minister have concerning the aqua- culture industry in the last three months? V. Roddick: I ask leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members V. Roddick: A school, Southpointe Academy, from Tsawwassen has just joined us in the gallery. There are 31 grade 5s, two teachers, the headmaster and three parents.

W e j u s t h a d a n e x c e l l e n t q u e s t i o n p e r i o d i n t h e foyer about an hour ago, and I would ask that the House grant them a good resounding welcome. [1125] Debate Continued Hon. J. van Dongen: Simply to confirm for the member, as an MLA, I continue to participate in com- mittees such as the Government Caucus Committee on Natural Resources and to maintain an interest in these issues that affect rural British Columbia. I can't answer the specific question. The point is that we have always been open. I have always been open to meeting with all stakeholders, including the environmental groups.

That's the point. J. MacPhail: How many meetings did the minister have with the then Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries while this minister was on his hiatus? Hon. J. van Dongen: As I said, I stepped aside as minister, and the minister that was named by the Pre- mier had full charge of the ministry. I was not involved at all. J. MacPhail: How many meetings did the minister — this minister — have with the minister responsible for the file while this minister was on hiatus? It's a simple question. Zero, two, 15? Hon.

J. van Dongen: The answer to the member's question is that the only meetings I participated in

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6105 were meetings that involved my role as a member of government caucus committees. J. MacPhail: Was this meeting that the minister had just last week with the environmental group, the Coastal Alliance, part of…? He said he did it alone. Was he mistaken when he said that? Hon. J. van Dongen: I met with that group as an MLA. J. MacPhail: Boy, I'll tell you, Mr. Chair, I think it is unbelievable the way this minister is stonewalling — unbelievable. He refuses to come clean on any front. Let's go back to the letter from Stolt Sea Farm.

It says: "I am requesting that the recommendation to lay charges against Stolt Sea Farm be dropped." The minis- ter was copied in on this letter, by the way. "At the same time, I would like to suggest that your staff be asked to work with us rather than against us…." What avenue should Stolt Sea Farm have followed rather than writing this letter requesting that charges be dropped? Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, the matter was fully investigated by a special prosecutor, and I refer the member to the Ministry of Attorney General on those issues. [1130] J. MacPhail: I'm looking for change here.

I'm look- ing to see how things have changed. Nobody knows what the special prosecutor reported on these matters — nobody outside of the little cabal over here, nobody — so I'm trying to figure out what's changed. We have Stolt Sea Farm writing directly to a minister asking her to drop charges. If that same scenario occurred today, what should Stolt Sea Farm do? Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, I refer the member to the compliance and enforcement MOU, which has been developed between the two ministries.

It lays out the respective responsibilities and procedures for dealing with investigations and enforcement issues in aquacul- ture. J. MacPhail: Okay, let's go there. First of all, it's a service agreement on coordination of compliance and enforcement programs between the Ministry of Agri- culture, Food and Fisheries; the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection; the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management; and Land and Water British Columbia Inc. In fact, I note in this document that the time lines for implementation of all of this…. The tran- sition phase is supposed to be complete by April 2003.

Theoretically, according to this document, it should be in full force and effect. I note on page 2 the goals of the service agreement.

Here are the goals of the service agreement: "Develop- ment of this service agreement is based on the follow- ing common goals: efficient use of staff resources to minimize duplication, one-window approach to aqua- culture development, high level of compliance, early intervention to avoid non-compliance, effective en- forcement, successful prosecution and rehabilitation where required, public confidence and" — here's a key — "transparency." I'd say the kind of goals I'm trying to explore here are high levels of compliance, early intervention to avoid non-compliance, effective enforcement, success- ful prosecution and rehabilitation where required, pub- lic confidence and transparency.

Before this document was in effect, Stolt Sea Farm thought it just fine to write to a minister telling her to back off from the investigation. What would happen now? That's my question. Well, here's what this service agreement says.

Environmental monitoring: "For the purpose of this service agreement it is agreed that envi- ronmental monitoring activities pursuant to the aqua- culture waste control regulation will remain with the lead regulatory agency, Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection, with participation by Ministry of Agri- culture, Food and Fisheries inspections staff." Can the minister explain the relationship now be- tween WLAP and the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries? Hon.

J. van Dongen: Using the example of the Waste Management Act, the investigation would be controlled and directed by the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection but would involve participation by MAFF inspection staff in terms of doing the base in- spection of the issue. J. MacPhail: Is there any participation by the minis- ters? Hon. J. van Dongen: No. J. MacPhail: What about on fish escapes — is it the same? Hon. J. van Dongen: It's the same in the sense that there wouldn't be any involvement by the minister. [1135] J. MacPhail: Okay, so that's a change then.

The minister isn't supposed to be involved in any of this stuff, so I don't know why the minister just didn't stand up and say: "Yeah, I'm not supposed to be involved in any of these things." It says here that the agencies agree to conduct joint environmental monitoring activities on site in order to achieve harmonization between compliance inspec- tions and on-site activities. How does that work? Hon. J. van Dongen: All fish farms are inspected on an annual basis for the range of compliance issues. This

section sets out the goal of the various ministries in- volved to coordinate those inspection procedures to avoid the situation where we have duplication of activ- ity and different visits at different times. This is an ef-

6106 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 fort to coordinate activity to get more efficient use of inspection staff but also to ensure that all of the issues that need to be inspected for are fully inspected. J. MacPhail: No. 7 of this service agreement says: "Compliance and Enforcement Roles and Responsibili- ties: For the purpose of this service agreement, it is agreed that the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fish- eries has the lead role in compliance and that the Min- istry of Water, Land and Air Protection has the lead role in enforcement." Is that the way it's working now? Hon.

J. van Dongen: Y e s , we 're m o v i ng i n t he d i - rection of the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protec- tion being responsible for enforcement. J. MacPhail: I t s a y s h e r e , t h e n : " T h e M i n i s t r y o f Water, Land and Air Protection will also assume the lead role in consultation with the Ministry of Agricul- ture, Food and Fisheries" — but they'll be the lead — "when environmental conditions at marine finfish fa- cilities exceed the 'trigger' level established in the aqua- culture waste control regulation." What does "trigger level" mean? Is this where peo- ple can complain?

Is that the stage at which people can complain? [1140] Hon. J. van Dongen: The trigger level refers to a specific standard at which non-compliance would come into effect or the performance of that farm would be in non-compliance with the regulation under the Waste Management Act. J. MacPhail: There really is no role for the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries in enforcement. If there was no role, why did the minister have anything to say at all with any aquaculture farms around en- forcement of investigations after investigation?

I mean, according to these documents, there's a zero role for the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries in en- forcement, and there sure ain't any role for the minis- ter. Is that correct? Hon. J. van Dongen: The

section cited by the mem- ber deals with the Waste Management Act, which is exclusively the ultimate authority of the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection. J. MacPhail: Is this document limited to the Waste Management Act? It just says "Coordination of Com- pliance and Enforcement Programs." Let me see whether I can find compliance and enforcement some- where else. It turns out, no. This is the only

section that talks about compliance and enforcement. I'm just work- ing from the minister's own documents. I've had ten, 20 seconds to read it. Maybe my questions are wrong, but I certainly am willing to have the minister stand up and tell me that. Okay, here's another section: "Compliance and En- forcement, Roles and Responsibilities, continued." "'Enforcement' is defined as carrying out the following activities: verifying and substantiating an alleged offence; recommending and implementing necessary enforcement responses." "Specifically: (

a) MAFF compliance staff will serve as the lead in developing site-specific management plans and conducting all finfish and shellfish inspections, monitoring (subject to

section 6) and audits on behalf of MWLAP, LWBC and MSRM." Then another (a), but I think they probably mean (b): "(

a) MWLAP enforcement staff will serve as the investigative lead on all enforcement activities associated with formal prosecutions, court orders and administrative penalties for finfish and shellfish aquaculture on behalf of MAFF, LWBC and MSRM." Is this a change? Hon. J. van Dongen: Yes, these two sections are a change and lay out in our MOU the way that our re- spective inspection enforcement staff will divide up the responsibilities. Sections (

a) and (

b) set that out for our staff. Our staff in the two ministries work as a team, and this provides the parameters as to how they do their jobs of effective investigations and enforce- ment. J. MacPhail: M y l a s t q u e s t i o n i s o n 1 0 , " R e s o l v i n g Differences," of this agreement: "Where conflict arises relative to different opinions within the scope of relevant authorities or appropriate sanctions, it is agreed that differences are to be resolved as quickly and efficiently as possible by staff involved in discussions and at a maximum within 30 days of the issue being identified.

"If the issue in question cannot be resolved within 14 days at this level, it will be brought forward to respective assistant deputy ministers for discussion and resolution within 14 days." [1145] This clearly indicates there's no role for the minis- ter. I'm wondering why the minister then couldn't stand up and answer my question and say straightfor- wardly: "I have no role and no information about in- vestigations." Hon. J. van Dongen: Well,

section 10 is self- evident. It sets out the procedure now where we have disputes. Previously, before this MOU existed, we had no formalized way to resolve disputes between the two ministries where there were joint or overlapping en- forcement capabilities. J. MacPhail: It's only by my revealing this that the minister confesses to that. He couldn't answer the ques- tion prior to my revealing this.

In fact, if I hadn't actu- ally brought this forward, the public might think that the minister is still involved in investigations — still interfering — because God knows, it doesn't come from inside him to understand the role of a minister in administering his responsibilities. Is this now in full effect? It says April 2003. Hon. J. van Dongen: Yes, it is.

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6107 J. MacPhail: Why does the minister's service plan, o n p a g e 8 a g a i n , s a y : " T h e m i n i s t r y t a k e s t h e l e a d o n compliance and enforcement"? Hon. J. van Dongen: I'm not sure which part of the service plan the member is referring to. On page 8, line 4, we talk about our ministry having the provincial lead on all compliance issues associated with the industry. What that refers to is the fact that in pooling our inspection staff, we would do the base inspection as set out in the compliance and enforcement agree- ment.

When it's an issue that involves the Waste Man- agement Act, all of the governing authority is with the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection. J. MacPhail: I don't know what the minister's hav- ing trouble with. It says….

I'll just read it: "Government has developed a comprehensive regulatory framework for the salmon aquaculture industry that includes" — and this is this minister's service plan — "an improved and harmonized compliance and enforcement regime for the finfish and shellfish aquaculture industry and designates the ministry as the provincial lead on all compliance issues associated with the industry." It says that this ministry is the lead on it. Well, let me ask this, then.

It's clear from this document that Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection is the lead on enforcement and that it is staff that are supposed to take the lead on all of this stuff. There is no ministerial role in compliance and enforcement. I want to ask some questions about how that's changed at the staff level, then. According to the CBC, the Water, Land and Air Protection investigator around the Stolt Sea Farm fiasco got a personal call from Mr. Blackburn. The members will remember that he's the vice-president of Stolt Sea Farms.

Now, that matter was investigated by the RCMP, and we'll never know what the result of that was. We do know that someone inside government leaked con- fidential details of the case to Stolt. We'll never know whether it was the minister himself. He admits to call- ing them. He admits to faxing them. No, I guess, actu- ally, he doesn't admit to that. Some of his colleagues have admitted that on his behalf. [1150] It was clear that the Water, Land and Air Protection investigator on that file got a call directly from Mr. Blackburn. Can that occur under this service agree- ment? Hon.

J. van Dongen: The issue that the member refers to was fully investigated. I've acknowledged that I made a mistake on that file. Again, I refer the member to my previous answer, which is for her to go to the Attorney General's ministry. J. MacPhail: Oh yes, the minister has admitted that h e m a d e a m i s t a k e . W h a t I ' m t r y i n g t o f i g u r e o u t i s what's changed since he made his mistake. Can the likes — the people who are…? Sorry, that's rude of me, Mr. Chair. Can people like Mr. Blackburn, a vice- president of a fish farm company, call a Water, Land and Air Protection investigator directly?

Hon. J. van Dongen: I'll refer the member to my earlier answer, where people could contact the man- ager responsible for compliance and licensing. They could contact the fisheries officer. They can contact conservation officers who are operating under this MOU agreement in terms of their responsibilities to investigate and enforce effectively. J. MacPhail: M y l a s t q u e s t i o n b e f o r e w e r i s e f o r lunch is…. The minister said he made a mistake. Well, what was it that he didn't understand about his oath of confidentiality that he took as a minister, which he did- n't…?

What was it that he didn't understand about that? Hon. J. van Dongen: As I acknowledged publicly, I made a mistake in the handling of a document on this file. The matter has been fully investigated by the spe- cial prosecutor. The results of that investigation are available to the member from the Attorney General's ministry. J. MacPhail: No, they're not. The government is keeping the documents and the report secret. They're not available. Through you, Mr. Chair, to the minister: stop saying they are, or table the report. I'm trying to find out about what's changed with this minister now that he's back in office.

What does he know? What would he do differently? What does he now understand about his oath of confidentiality? He understands that his oath of confidentiality is keeping things secret from the public. The oath of confidential- ity isn't to work against the public. It's supposed to work for the public. Mr. Chair, I have many, many more questions. Not- ing the hour, I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Motion approved. The committee rose at 11:54 p.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Committee of Supply B, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Committee of Supply A, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. Hon. G. Bruce moved adjournment of the House. Motion approved. Mr. Speaker: The House is adjourned until 2 p.m. today. The House adjourned at 11:55 a.m.

6108 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 PROCEEDINGS IN THE DOUGLAS FIR ROOM Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply A; G. Trumper in the chair. The committee met at 10:10 a.m. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF SUSTAINABLE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT On vote 37: ministry operations, $90,001,000. Hon. S. Hagen: This is the third time I've had the honour of presenting the budget estimates for the Min- istry of Sustainable Resource Management. With me today is Deputy Minister Jon O'Riordan and Sheila Taylor, acting assistant deputy minister, corporate ser- vices division.

I would also like to briefly note that not here today but certainly worthy of mention are the hardworking staff of the ministry and the agencies which report to me. The ministry role. Our government supports excel- lent health and education. They are our priorities, but we know we need a strong economy to underwrite those priorities. A thriving economy is more important than ever if we hope to support such vital social pro- grams.

In the new year the Ministry of Sustainable Re- source Management will continue to help to diversify the province's economic base, especially in British Co- lumbia's heartlands communities. Reduce conflict, strengthening relations with first nations. We will also contribute to enhanced certainty on the land base. Certainty is essential for economic development and to support the goals of the B.C. heart- lands economic strategy. The draft sustainability principles we have devel- oped and the science-based data for LandData B.C. will also play an important role.

We base our decisions on these foundations, sustainability and science — deci- sions that are crucial to the long-term well-being of B.C.'s communities. The Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management will continue to work hard to realize our vision of a vibrant economy and to support the social and envi- ronmental values of British Columbians. We're exploring new economic opportunities and looking for innovative ways to add value to natural resources. Let me take a minute to talk about those resources.

Too many naysayers are trying to say our government's land use decisions are primarily for ex- traction of trees or minerals or oil. I want to remind everyone of the other valuable resources in our heart- lands: the culture of our first nations, the diversity of our environment and the purity of our water resources. O u r g o a l i s t o m a k e d e c i s i o n s t h a t e n h a n c e , v a l u e and support all the resources that make up B.C.

We won't carve this wonderful province into a patchwork of single-use ghettos; we will accommodate other sec- tors like oil and gas in the Muskwa-Kechika or tourism in the southern Rockies and Golden, protecting key environmental values. I can tell you that the Ministry of Sustainable Re- source Management assists much of that economic development through our ongoing land use planning, whether it's in Lillooet, the central coast, the north coast, the southern Rockies or the Queen Charlotte Islands–Haida Gwaii.

We're striving to come up with land use plans that strike the right balance between economic, social and environmental concerns. We are making progress and finding sustainable solutions with all parties at the land use tables: first nations, industry and communities. We are making progress on the central coast LRMP. We've extended the time line for this to be resolved, and for good rea- sons.

This decision gives the coast information team time to ensure the application of appropriate science and information for the table to use, and it gives first nations more time, as well, to negotiate government-to- government agreements on land use plans. We are also proceeding with the north coast LRMP. I'm pleased to say we've recently signed a framework agreement with the Haida for the Queen Charlotte Islands–Haida Gwaii land use plan. The people at the table are taking an ecosystem–based management approach.

That includes using environ- mental risk assessment and other innovative modelling and analysis tools to develop land use options. We expect to receive final land use recommenda- tions for the central coast table by the end of this year and the north coast table by the spring of 2004. In the interior we're moving quickly at setting land use objectives. These will support the results-based code for forestry. We are setting balanced objectives that will protect biodiversity while providing access to the forest resource.

In the end, sound land use plan- ning now will help achieve sustainable economic de- velopment in the future. [1015] I'd like to talk briefly about the working forest. Our government is taking bold steps to ensure that we have a leading-edge forest industry once again. The forest industry makes an enormous contribution to the pro- vincial economy and to communities throughout the province. However, over the past several decades it has been subject to unprecedented change. The management of B.C.'s forest resources has fun- damentally changed.

It now incorporates a variety of values, including timber, biodiversity, ecosystem con- servation, fish and wildlife habitat, recreation, trapping and tourism, and that is how it should be. But it also means the commercial forest land base deserves legal recognition through a new land base designation. Therefore, we plan to introduce legislation to create a working forest land base, something our government committed to in its New Era document.

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6109 I have to take a minute to make something clear, to undo some of the misinformation being bandied about. The working forest is more than just forestry. The working forest recognizes other uses, including tour- ism, mining, ranching and recreation. It is, in fact, a working landscape, a stable land base for activities that meet many objectives. But make no mistake: there is no intention to privatize the forests, none of the hidden plans some people insist upon.

The working forest is about providing greater certainty for the forest indus- try, the communities and all other uses and values from the land whether it is tourism, recreation, mining, oil and gas initiatives, agriculture opportunities or ranching. None of the existing land use planning going on — efforts to secure treaties with first nations or the province's obligation to consult with first nations, all current parks, protected areas and private land — is impacted by the proposed working forest designation. Those who cry doom are deliberately missing the point.

A s y o u k n o w , t h e p u b l i c c o m m e n t p e r i o d o n t h e working forest discussion paper has been extended to April 30, 2003. We've made this decision in response to several requests from different groups who want more time to analyze the proposal. As well, I have written over 200 individual letters seeking input from British Columbians from all walks of life. We are getting many, many responses on our website, and staff are meeting with a wide range of groups. We will consider all responses as we arrive at the best public policy.

I would like to say a few words about how the Min- istry of Sustainable Resource Management is living up to the government's throne speech commitment to first nations. As we move forward on land use and resource access, our ministry is on the front line to accord first nations the respect, support, and social and economic opportunities to which they are entitled. This past year the ministry led the development of a new provincial policy for consultation with first nations.

We are now building new relationships across ministries with vari- ous first nations, new relationships that are key to re- building the trust and certainty we all seek. We do this through consultation and accommodation in our land use planning processes. We are helping first nations' capacity to participate in planning processes — in re- source allocation, like forestry, and in economic pro- gress, like tourism or industrial park development. Under consultation this ministry has signed 26 planning protocols with numerous first nations groups on the coast and in the interior.

These agreements pro- vide a framework to complete our land use plans and objectives and provide certainty for economic access to Crown resources for all our major land use plans. We have significant agreements with Turning Point on the north coast and with the Kwakiutl tribal council on the central coast and with two dozen others around the province. Under accommodation, another 66 agree- ments, signed or in discussion, deal with economic measures and data sharing to build capacity for first nations to access the economy.

Some examples are a coordinated regional tourism strategy with coastal first nations, an economic development strategy with the Gitanyow nation and a number of traditional new studies. As you know, we are engaged with first na- tions and others regarding the Lillooet LRMP. Further steps in this area are expected this summer. Meanwhile, we have a timber and economic recov- ery plan in place that involves many of the first na- tions. We have strategies that cover regional units in the province. One is on shellfish aquaculture opportu- nities assessment.

Another provides an aboriginal tour- ism strategy for B.C., and a third is an information- sharing protocol for a range of first nations. Such agreements, strategies and frameworks bring clarity for first nations, business and communities. Goodwill and stronger government-to-government relations have developed with first nations throughout the province, and they will grow in the coming year. [1020] I'll take a few minutes to talk about the budget of the ministry. Last year the Ministry of Sustainable Re- source Management kept its spending on budget at $117 million.

That will be held to $92 million in the coming year. Some of that reduction reflects a transfer to Land and Water British Columbia for the admini- stration and licensing of Crown water resources. That means water and Crown land allocations are now fully integrated into Land and Water British Columbia. We have also transferred the capital and operating budgets for park and ecological reserve acquisitions to the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection. I'll spend a few minutes talking about our agencies. In addition to the activity of the ministry and its staff, I am also responsible for several other agencies.

These include Land and Water British Columbia, known as LWBC. It is responsible on behalf of the public for op- timizing two of our most valuable provincial assets: Crown land and water. These assets offer us significant opportunities to contribute to the economic, social and cultural well-being of British Columbians. By placing a continued emphasis on innovative business ap- proaches, enhanced client service and continuous im- provement, LWBC can facilitate economic develop- ment and job creation through enhanced access to Crown land and water resources.

As an example, Land and Water British Columbia is turning around more than 90 percent of all applications within 140 days. Changes made in how they work means that applications are processed in half the time. It is no longer a goal, no longer even a bragging point; it is just good service and good business. LWBC has successfully eliminated a large backlog of over 1,480 land applications and a longstanding backlog of 1,980 water licence applications.

The success that has been achieved in the water program reduces the backlog to its lowest in more than 30 years and for the first time implements strong service levels and tar- get turnaround times. The environmental assessment office is a neutral agency that undertakes environmental, economic and social reviews of proposed major projects. The provin- cial government is committed to more flexible, efficient

6110 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 and timely reviews of proposed major projects to help revitalize the provincial economy. This is why a new, streamlined environmental assessment process was introduced last year. This year's target is to have 90 percent of application reviews completed in 180 days or less. The Agricultural Land Commission has been re- structured and renamed to be more regionally respon- sive. This year it aims to reduce the number of regula- tory requirements by 70 percent from 2001-02 and to have 80 percent of applications decided within 90 days.

The Assessment Authority of B.C. reduces uniform property assessments that form the basis for local and provincial taxation and provides real estate informa- tion to the public. The Assessment Authority's broad business strategy is to provide property tax bases that are predictable and stable for tax authorities and prop- erty assessments that are fair and equitable for prop- erty owners. The BCAA has set a number of specific targets for this year that make it even more efficient and effective.

Other agencies, boards and commissions that re- port to me as the minister include the Fraser Basin Council, the Muskwa-Kechika Advisory Board and the central region Clayoquot board, and we are just com- pleting the first year with responsibility for the prop- erty assessment review panels and Property Assess- ment Appeal Board. I look forward to discussing my ministry's plans in detail as this estimates debate continues. We'll be de- bating my ministry's budget for the fiscal year 2003-04. Net operating expenditures will be $92.297 million. Our projected FTE utilization for the coming year is 954.

Each agency and board under my portfolio has separate budget and FTE allocations, which we can discuss in further detail if you wish. I welcome ques- tions and comments from all members. J. Bray: I certainly appreciated the opening com- ments that the minister had. I just have a few questions this morning. I know that many of my colleagues also have a lot of questions. First of all, I want to acknowledge the minister's service plan. As I have said before many times, service plans sometimes seem to be documents that govern- ments churn out. Sometimes people aren't aware whether they provide any benefit or not.

Certainly, having come from the public service, I know the im- portance of service plans for giving direction and guid- ance to the ministry to ensure that staff know what the goals and objectives are and also for the public to really get a sense of where ministries are going, where gov- ernment is going and how to actually measure those goals and objectives and whether or not they're being met. [1025] Certainly, the staff of the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management should be commended, because it's an excellent document. It's very detailed and very thorough.

It provides both government and the public with a lot of very valuable information on the ministry, and I encourage people to have a look at it. I just want to acknowledge the hard work by members of the min- ister's staff that obviously went into producing this document. I have a couple of questions on the working forest legislation and that process. I appreciate the minister's initial comments in his opening address. Certainly, constituents of mine — where there's not a lot forestry — are somewhat concerned by that. They're not neces- sarily entirely clear as to the intent of the working for- est legislation.

I understand there is quite a bit of in- formation on the ministry website, but I'm wondering if the minister could just clarify. The working forest is not about handing over Crown lands to private com- panies; it's a planning context in which there's certainty provided for forestry industries in conjunction with all other users. It's not about giving away land to the pri- vate companies but more about making sure that in- vestors have a sense of what is available for them as a first-choice use. All other considerations are still there, and in fact, the Crown still retains full title.

I'm won- dering if the minister could clarify that. Hon. S. Hagen: It's an important point, and that's why I made that comment in my speaking notes. The working forest initiative and proposed legislation will b e a n o t h e r p i e c e o f t h e p u z z l e t h a t w e h a v e t o c o n - struct to ensure we have certainty on the land base. The other pieces of that puzzle are the results-based code, the consultation with first nations and the other changes to forestry that the Forests minister has brought in. It's part of that.

W h a t w e w a n t t o b e a b l e t o s h o w t h e p u b l i c a n d prospective investors is that there is surety on the land base in British Columbia even though we're still going down the path of negotiating treaties, which I look u p o n a s a m e d i u m - t o l o n g - t e r m p a r t o f t h i s p u z z l e . We will actually be able to see the working forest on a map, the lands that are available for working forest in the province of British Columbia. That message will then translate to certainty, investment and jobs. J.

Bray: One of the concerns members of my com- munity express is around environmental issues. From the minister's comments, then, is it fair for me to say that the working forest planning context has absolutely no impact on the strong environmental regulations in place and the emphasis on sustainable management of our forest resource — that this is not in any way affect- ing the environmental standards we've set up in this province? Hon. S. Hagen: The short answer to that is no, it won't. J.

Bray: I also understand, and I have been suggest- ing to constituents of mine who've got concerns, that there is a public consultation process currently under- way for members of the public to actually make their comments directly to the ministry, based on the infor- mation that's on the website of the Ministry of Man-

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6111 agement Services. Can the minister advise whether or not that public consultation is still available and when constituents have an opportunity to put that input for- ward? Hon. S. Hagen: We've extended the time period for that public input to April 30, so there is still about three weeks left to go. We've had considerable input from a number of groups. I sent out over 200 letters to very specific groups like industry, the environmental com- munity, first nations and community leaders to make sure we got a broad cross-section of information com- ing back to us.

That is happening. We will certainly take all of the feedback we get into consideration. This is going to be a very important piece of public policy, and we want to make sure we've got it right. J. Bray: That's certainly good news. I know my con- stituents appreciate the opportunity for real consulta- tion, and I'm pleased to hear that on an issue that's important and generating a lot of interest, access for public input has been increased. I think that's excellent news. [1030] The other area I'd like to canvass the minister on is one of the areas the minister is responsible for, B.C. Assessment.

There have been some changes recently with respect to how some properties have been as- sessed. I'm speaking specifically about bed-and- breakfasts. In a community like Victoria, which relies heavily on tourism and also has a lot of older heritage homes, individual entrepreneurs have taken up the provision of bed-and-breakfast as a mainstay employment for them. In fact, there are several hundred units available in the Victoria area through bed-and-breakfasts. How- ever, the changes that occurred recently changed the classification under B.C.

Assessment for some bed-and- breakfasts and had some significant tax implications. There has been a process of consultation underway with respect to that. I know the minister has heard from me and from various industries, both in resort towns and in urban areas like Victoria. I'm wondering if the minister could update us as to where the consul- tation is with respect to this whole area of assessment and, in particular, bed-and-breakfasts — if he can pro- vide some information on where that's at. Hon. S. Hagen: An excellent question.

I want to compliment the member, because he's really been quar- terbacking a lot of this for me and has introduced me to a number of people in Victoria who operate bed-and- breakfasts. I realize we have significant problem here. First of all, I went to B.C. Assessment Authority and said: "Look, we've got a problem. Can we try and solve it?" That didn't work. I actually commissioned an independent contractor, a chartered accountant and longtime municipal administrator to do a report. I re- c e i v e d t h a t r e p o r t y e s t e r d a y , I t h i n k . I ' v e o n l y h a d a chance to give it a cursory look.

We're going to be dis- cussing it with my ministry staff and B.C. Assessment staff later on this week. I'm hoping there are some ways to accommodate these problems. They're very serious problems. We take them very seriously. We're honestly looking for a way to solve this issue so that it's seen as fair by every- one. J. Bray: I'm very pleased to hear that report's gone forward. I don't have any more questions, but I want to commend the minister for working so hard on this. He's met with several members of my community who run bed-and-breakfasts.

It's clear he's heard their con- cerns and is working with the community to try and develop some positive solutions. I'd like to thank the minister for the effort by himself and his staff to work with these very important members of our community and our tourism industry. B. Bennett: I have a few questions for the minister. Before I ask those questions, I would like to say I've had probably more interaction with this ministry in my riding than any other ministry. It's been a very positive experience. The staff located in the Kootenays, based out of Nelson and Cranbrook, do an excellent job.

They're very professional and good to work with. I wanted to start my questioning by going right back to the creation of this ministry and hearing from the minister, if I could, about the reason why the minis- try was created with respect to bringing all the differ- ent ministries together, the different disciplines, to take a more integrated approach to land use planning. My constituents, and constituents in rural B.C. generally, are still a little bit in the dark as to what this ministry is about.

Some of my constituents — and I've talked to others in the province — think that Sustainable Re- source Management is the same as Land and Water B.C., and, of course, it isn't. Perhaps I could ask the minister to clarify what makes up the ministry and what its focus is, particularly with regard to land use planning. [1035] Hon. S. Hagen: Thank you for the question. I can only assume that you're going to have some questions on coal later on. I think the people who put this ministry together tried to gather all of the parts of government that deal with Crown land and water.

That includes the agencies I'm responsible for, whether it's the Land Reserve Commission or Land and Water B.C. or B.C. Assess- ment. All of these things have something to do with the land base and the water base in the province. The other thing that's happened — certainly since I was in government last time — is there have been a number of conflicts that have taken place between uses of land. Usually the conflict is between an environ- mental expectation and an economic development ex- pectation. The ministry was created to try and find the balance between economic development opportunities

6112 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 and environmental integrity, maintaining that integ- rity. Wherever you live in the province, people are con- cerned about both those issues. They're obviously con- cerned about jobs and economic development oppor- tunities. They're also concerned about our environ- ment. It doesn't matter whether you live in downtown Vancouver or downtown Cranbrook or in Bella Coola; people do have that concern. What we try to do is resolve conflicts. You compli- mented my staff, and I want to compliment my staff too, because I think they do an exceptional job.

As I've travelled the province, we've come into communities where there's been a conflict between snowmobilers and caribou, for instance. This was certainly something I never thought I would get involved with as a politi- cian, but the reality is there are conflicts out there like that. That's another thing we do. The other area of expertise we have generated, par- ticularly in the last 20 months, is the interaction with first nations, building those relationships of trust and respect with first nations around the province. We're continuing to do that.

As you heard in my notes, we've done something like 92 agreements with different first nations bands around the province. A lot of those are economic development opportunities, and some are related to land use planning. We're here to serve the public. Our staff under- stands that. We look upon the public as customers coming in, and we assist agencies like the Oil and Gas Commission, for instance, in processing those applica- tions for drilling.

We are responsible for areas like the Muskwa-Kechika where the high values of environ- ment have become known, but there are also high val- ues from an economic development perspective. We have people around that table, from environmentalists to first nations to industry people to community peo- ple, who work at solving those issues before they really become huge issues. B. Bennett: The minister answered two or three of my questions there, which is a good thing. I am inter- ested in going a little further with the land use plan- ning process, as the ministry is involved in it.

One of the issues for people in rural B.C. is that previous administrations have concentrated more on the environmental leg of the sustainability stool, if you will, and less so on the second and third legs, the social and the economic. Because we are identifying and ac

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0408am 03
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0408am 03
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9b1c0748c9d25a03c5dd239e6233abb570d1f9f6

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