VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, APRIL ]3, 1984 NO. 24

April 13, 1984 The House met at 10:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. SPEAKER: Tape 962 PK - l Order, please! MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS The han. Minister of Rural Agriculture and Northern Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of my statement today is to bring all members of the House of Assembly up to date on the status of negotiations with the Government of Canada towards ·-a.- iederal/provincial rural development agreement. First, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to review briefly for the benefit of all han. members our efforts to achieve a federal/provincial rural development agreement. The rural development agreement signed under the ARDA programme and the general development agreement were among the most successful federal/provincial initiatives which have been taken in our Province. New investments and long­ term jobs were created in areas of our Province where the problems of unemployment and low incomes were the most severe.

The effectiveness of the rural development programme has been dealing in large measure to the co-ordinating role which these agreements played in matching rural community economic priorities with a myriad of federal/provincial development programmes. In submitting a proposal for an integrated rural development programme in June 1982, we had hoped that the collaborative approach to dealing with rural development which had developed over ten years of experience might be continued. The major purpose of the agreements was to facilitate the role of rural community 257B

April 13, 1984 Tape 962 PK - 2 MR. GOUDIE: residents in identifying -pevelopment opportunities and implementing sound 1 locally rooted development projects. A comprehensive package of field services was provided to the client groups of the agreements to assist them in this process.

The range of services included financial and administrative support for development projects, , training seminars for development association volunteers and staff, information services to individuals and groups/and long-range planning and research for development association. financial incentives to small businesses, business management and marketing and advisory services to small businesses and market analyses and design services to crafts producers.

The important ingredient in all of these was the comprehensive nature of the services provided to people in rural areas who would be unlikely to know about or participate in publicly sponsored development programmes. The agreements were successful because of the comprehensive nature of the services provided and the citizen led form of development which the management structure of agreements facilitated. n.•7g LJt

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 963 SD - 1 MR. GOUDIE: As I have indicated 1 in June 1982 after extensive consultations wit~ the ~ural @evelopment movement 1 the Province submitted a comprehensive proposal for a new long-term agreement. That proposal requested an agreement whic~ continued with t~e same type of cost shared programmes delivered and managed jointly just as in the previous · agreements . In effect 1 the Province proposed a continuation of a programme which had proved itself by ten to fifteen years · of succes ·sful experience. Mr. Speaker, the rural development agreement expired on March 31, 1983.

It was extended to September 30, 1983, in order to permit negotiations · for a new agreement to proceed . At the end of September t~e extension to the rural development agreement expired. . On the ba.sis of consultations with the Newfoundland and Labrador Rural Development Council and the fifty 'Rural development associations, it was concluded that the f;e.deral attempt to mode the rural development programme into the framework of the National Industrial and Regional Development Programme, (IRDP 1 ,. would destroy the rural development Movement in this Province.

At this point government was faced with a pai-nful decision, t~e agreement ~ad expired and the whole rural development structure was wit~out funds ·. If this continued the structure wh±ch had been built up over more t.han a decade wo .uld be jeopardized. At that point, the Province took the decision to provide interim funding -- - to the rural development associations and the Newfoundland and Labrador Rural Development Council for the balance of the 19:.83 /84 fiscal year. I:t was our hope that within that period a new federal/provincial development agreement would be . aclll.."e ve.d •.

Over the past Winter I had several discussions witrr this Province's representative in the federal Cabinet concerni.n .g the rural deve :lopment programme. As · a result, in late l~arcli th.e hon. Wi:lli .am Rompkey and I jointly 2580

··-· -- · --- .... - --··- .... ---·- - - ----- --· ------ --- --...:.~ April 13, 1984 Tape No. 963 - I SD - 2 MR. GOUDIE: announced that an agreement in principle had been reached. The Province has not yet received any confirmation of the agreement in principle. Kowever, we will continue to work with the federal government to achieve an agreeme ·nt that is acceptable not only to this government but also to the ·rural development movement ' in the Province. We are now at the same point we were six months ago. The .

Rural Development Council and the associations are without funds, government again finds itself at a critical decision poi.nt. In this context, Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to advice the hon. memDers that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has decided to extend the interim fundings of the Rural Development Council and the rural development associations into the . first three months of the 1984 /85 fiscal year. In this: period, Mr. Speaker, we will endeavour to finalize a rural development agreement that is: acceptao ie to the Province.

The Rural Development Council and the fifty rural 2581

~..,-- -- ·-. . . -. ---· , ____ ____ ___ ......._ __ _ April 13, 1984 Tape No. 964 NM - 1 MR. GOUDIE: development associations throughout the Province. The primary consideration for all, even,I am sure 1the federal authorities, will be to avoid a federal/provincial -- -- ----- -- - agreement which is injurious to the rural development movement in Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Before I recognize the han. member for Torr;gat Mountains, .it is a pleasure for me to welcome to the galleries thirty-five students from st.

George's School, Long Pond, in the district of ------- - -- Conception Bay South, with their teacher,Mrs. Joan Friddle. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I understand some three or four months ago, according to the minister, he and Mr. Rompkey announced that they had reached an agreement,in principle. However, I can also gather from the minister's statement that they could be just as far away from an agreement now as they had been months and months ago. And it shows, Mr.

Speaker, once again that unless this government can ~et everything for nothing they are not going to accept ·anything. And this is what apparentiy is happening again, another breakdown of negotiations. Apparently the federal government realizes that if they are going to pay 70 per cent to 100 cent of the funding, they need some credit for this spending. And if the minister expects --- that to get an agreement --- -- -- -- -- - from the federal government al1 he has to do is just roughshod over therural development associations, I that will not happen.

I am really concerned that the minister could not be more positive today. 2582 ·.

'- ·-~- '~ - •-"---- -- ~- -~ ....:... ~ ~--'-- -'- - April 13, 1983 Tape No. 964 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, he has said that he is going to give a three months extension, : It shows,r ight off the bat, Mr. Speake r, that.- th e Depar tm ent of R ura l, Agr icultur e 1'\rtr North ern Development's budget is already way out of whack by a three month extension. MR. CALLAN: This is Friday the 13, is it ? MR . WARRE N : Once again, Mr. Speaker, it is very sad -r,:r:- the minister to come in with such a statement, that again there is no agreement '.rith th e federal government, on a day such as Fri day the ).3.

MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Are there any other ministerial statements? ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon •. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEA RY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power). I would like to as k the minister why he .did not inform the Bowater Joint co ns ulta tive Commit tee 2583

April 13,1~84 Tape No. 965 ah-1 MR. NEARY: of the content of announcements he made the other day in Lewisporte about Bowater and about the deadline for receipt of bids and the like. Would the han. gentleman inform the House why he did not carry out the terms and conditions and the provisions of an oral agreement he · had made with the committee in Corner Brook,that nobody would say anything about the Bowater negotiations until the deal was finalized? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Resources and Lands. MR.POWER: The .hon. Minister of Forest __ __ .{ Mr.

Speaker, let me see if I can clarify what is a very small amount of confusion relating to what has been a very successful government effort,to be involved in the divestiture of the assets of a private corporation in -th is l'rovince. Some tim ;; ago we did set up a Joint Divestiture Committee, which was I guess, six months after ~e-w~t~d to do -it when the corporation did not agree • When they did fully agree to set up a Divestiture Cornrnittee,we agreed with the corporation certainly to not get involved in any public statements until something of substance was to be announced.

At the .same time,the Premier and I appointed a Joint Advisory Committee _in Corner Brook,taking into account all of the major organizations within Corner Brook. During the early working s of that advisory committee within Corner Brook,we also made an agreement that no public statements would be made relating to the divestiture of Bowater until we had something of substance to announce.

During the estimates committee, I announced . ·it had been announced beforehand and - -·· ------ some persons on the advisory were fully aware - ----- -- -- -- ·- -- ---- - that April 16 had been set as the deadline for the 2584 .·

April 13,1984 Tape No. 965 ah-2 MR:.POWER: receipt of proposals. _'l'·ha_:!: __ j'is Monday coming . At the estimates committee, I simply said that we are optimistic and hopeful that we will receive certain proposals on Monday,:that if proposals are received 1then government and the Advisory ~ommittee will have a full chance to look --- ·- --- ·-- .,;~"' over those proposals,which we certainly intend to do.

It certainly was not breaking faith with the Advisory Committee. , It was just a simple piece of .; -- -- - -- - ~ information that we had, April 16 was the deadline, and government's optimism to receive some proposals on that date. MR.NEARY: A supplementary Mr.Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon~ gentleman and the government had asked the committee to keep things close to their chest as they developed. They did and the minister did not.

Now he broke his trust and I think the committee demands an explanation as to why he broke his word and announced this date, Mr. Speaker. Brushing it over the way the hon. gentleman just did is not good enough. He owes-an explanation and an apology to the committee.And I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if he intends ,·to do that? .J MR- SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR.POWER: Mr. Speaker, there is no apology required.

All that is required is an explanation of what did happen for the hon. members opposite,who do not understand what has taken place in Corner Brook and have not expressed any great amount of interest in the Corner Brook situation until something happens of some 2585 .:

- ---- ,_.,. -- -·- ·---· .... -·-~-· ··--- .. - ·---·· -.:...·" - ~ ·- - April 13,1984 Tape No. 965 ah-3 MR.POWER: controversial nature so that they can get into the action au .... aee i.2 ·they_ can jump on another bandwagon. What has happened in Corner Brook is i ! 2585 /

-- ---· ,- • - - '1. ... -· -- -" ·----- --"- --'--·------''"- .:..;:_~-~-------- April 13, 1984 Tape 966 EC - 1 MR. POWER: that members of the Divestiture Committee are fully aware of everything that government has done and the company has done to try to sell the mill,and they are fully aware of what the government has undertaken and the government position as it relates to a long-term, permanent newsprint operator for that mill in Corner Brook. We have had many, many meetings with the Joint Divestiture Committee.

We will be having further meetings with the Divestiture Committee in which they will be fully informed of the substance of any pro- posals which are received on Monday. When that is done, I am sure the Divestiture Committee will not require any apologies. They will be very pleased >'l'ith government efforts to make sure we have a long-term,permanent oper- ation in Corner Brook. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: It is interesting to note, Mr.

Speaker, that the mayor of the City of Corner Brook and the president of the mill union last night were -not ­ very complimentary towards the hon. gentleman for breaking his word, and I thought the hon. gentleman would have the decency today to clarify the situation and apologize to the Committee for breaking his word, his trust. Now, could I ask the minister, ltr. Speaker, why the government has set Monday, April 16th as a deadline for receipt of bids to buy the Bm·rater mill? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands ·. MR. POWER: ~.r.

Speaker, again, if he ~'l'ould just give me a moment to explain the process that we have 2587

-......... --. - -.::.:... . . .,._ ..._... -- ·- ~ - :. ~ .. ··-·-. ·- --· ------co------ -----'--=--- - ~ - April 13, 1984 Tape 966 EC - 2 MR. POWER: in place: When the Bowater Corporation came to the government and announced that they were leaving Corner Brook in 1984 if at all possible, we asked them if we, as a government, could get involved in the selling process, and they said no, that they were going to do the selling process themselves becausP it was their corporation and their assets.

That _divestiture -- - -·- -·- process was not very successful and they finally did come back to governrnent,about three or four months after that initial, I guess, announcement to government. They carne back to government and sought our support and our partici- pation in a selling !'recess, ,-rhich we then began. We set up the Divestiture Committee. The Divestiture Committee of the Bowater Corporation and the Newfoundland Government have apparently been successful in the sense that they have gone to many, many corporations in Canada and the United States and, in fact, around the world.

After they had seen so many corporations, the thing simply could not be open-ended and waiting and waiting for proposals to be received. Several corporations had expressed interest. The Bowater Divestiture Committee set the date of April 16 as 2588

_ ..... ···-·-- -- ----"-~~·· ·- -- ··---··-- _ ... _______ _ April 13, 1984 Tape No. 967 MJ- 1 MR. POWER: being a date when 1I guess 1per!ons and corporations f~nally had to make some decisions .i~ they were really interested - ~ in Bowater and put some proposals on the table . So April 16 was set as an arbitrary deadline for receipt of proposals so we could get some action on the actual sale of the mill . It appears to have been successful, tlr.

Speaker, because it appears that on Monday there are several companies who will put in proposals~ ' If :that is successful on Monday and ~ - ___J if we do have proposals 1 then certainly the deadline has served its function of getting corporations to make the decision to get involved in Corner Brook. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, do :r; undezr.stiarid from the han. gentleman that the purpose of the deadline is to put some pressure on the corporations and companies who already had proposals on the table?

Is that the purpose of the exercise? That is ... what I understood from the han. > --'* gentleman because the han. gentleman 1 in winding up his answer to my question;said that it has met with success, that the companies will be discussing this matter on Monday. Now, Mr. Speaker, would the han. gentleman tell the House if the administration there opposite went along w±th :tnis deadline of April 16 or did they object to it;or did they say, 'Yes, it is a good idea, ,; ~.,e will agree to set the deadline; or was it the company who took an arbitrary decision to put this deadline on?

Could the hon. gentleman inform the House of that? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the ~tinister-of Forest Resources and Lands. 2589

--~ ___, -- ;;-· ...... ~~~. -~-=.: ~.=:::..:...~ ;.:- ~~ ---...:: ~~.:.....:...:..:- --..-_ - ·· -- ~.,;::-~.:.~..;.::-- ·~ · April 13, 1984 Tape No. 967 !<f..J - 2 MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, just let me clarify the process. Many companie ~s were ~risited by the I;>ivestiture Cominittee. The divestiture package, the selling package of ------ what was involved in Bowater corner Brook _;the woods operation, .._,., the power plant and the mill -that package was sent cllut to many companies-around the world. None of those companies had made a decision, no proposals~were received up to a month ago.

The Divestiture Committ~e, Bowater Corporation, ,.-- --·-- ·- - . -- -. - . -. - . - set the date of April 16 as being . the day when corporations who had received and had met with the ~-DivestitUre c~~itt ~e must submit a proposal-if they were interested in being a ., - - - long-term operator of th .e Corner Brook mill and buying the . --- assets from the Bowater Corporation. That date of April 16 was certai:Qly agreed to by the government.. As i: -said, on ""Monday, if we do have several proposals, as we suspect ·we-will;then the process will have been successful. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Jlll..r.

Speaker. - ------·--·-- ·- ~ -- -·-··- -· ;_ 2590

---- ------ ·------ -- --· _; ____ ~------ April 13, 1984, Tape 968, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(RUSSELL): The hon. the Leader of the Op~osition,a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the hen. gentleman indicate to the House whether he is saying that after April 16 no proposals will be accepted? Is that what the hen. gentleman is saying, that after the deadline of April 16 that is it for proposals? If a proposal is put on the table, or a corporation or a company approaches the Divestiture Committee after April 16 they will not talk to them, is that what the hen. gentleman is saying? MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Nearyl is being a little bit inconsistent. He now wants me to get involved in giving opinions about hypothetical situations, he wants me to get involved in negotiations 1and , in effect 1break the trust that we have with the Advisory Committee in Corner Brook. our hands are somewhat tied in government, Mr. Speaker, in the sense that we do not want to get invoLved in a negotiating process in public.

That is why we have the Advisory Committee, why we have a trust built up with the Advisory Committee that we do not intend to break, and why we are limited in the amount of information we can give. Just let me say to the Leader of the Oppositi .on that we will have proposals on Monday. If. those proposals are successful, if one of the bidders is acceptable to government and to the company, then there will be no need for a further round of bidding. 2 59 -1

April 13, 1984, Tape 968, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: · A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition 1a supplementary. MR. NEARY: It would be very stupid for the hon. gentleman to agree to the deadline of · April 16 and that no proposals would be received after that date. In the event that none of these companies who have proposals on the tab .le, the negotiations with these companies are successful, it would be rather stupid for the administration there opposite to say no more proposals. But let me ask the hon. gentleman this question.

In view of the statements that he made before the Estimates Committee recently, has the hon. gentleman commissioned any reports or studies which would show what would be involved, costs etc., if the government had to take over the mill for an interim period, while they were looking for a new operator? MR. SPEAKER: Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, again let me explain what was said at the Estimates Committee as it related to expropriation, which is what the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary} is getting at.

The Government of Newfoundland has no intention · of expropriating the mill in Corner Brook. We have put in place a very successful programme to try and sell the mill in Corner Brook. We have done everything that is humanly possible for the Government of Newfoundland and for the people in the Bowater C6rporation to sell the assets to a long-term buyer in Corner Brook. 2592

-- ------ - --- - -----'--- ·- --~--~ - -----=- ---- -- ----- April 13, 1984, Tape 968, Page 3 -- apb MR . POWER: What I did say at the Estimates Committee, and w~ich Ransard can easily prove , was that if we got ourselves in a situation such as Baie Verte, where you had what appeared to be a reasonable offer and you 2393

--- --.- -- -.. -~- ~· --·- · ~- - -- April 13, 1984 Tape No. 969 MR. POWER: appeared to have the seller who was not oe~ng reasonable 1 not willing to accept the dea~thengovernment, in any jurisdiction, has the powers SD - 1 to expropriate.Then what we would do 1 in a similar situation as Baie Verte, is we could go in, take the assets from the corporation, turn them over to the reasonable buyer, and then expropriation process would set a reasonable price for the assets of that corporation. Mr.

Speaker, again I emphasized very strongly at the Estimates Committee that we did not expect that kind of situation to arise because the selling process we have put in place has been and appears to be a successful one. We hope to have proposals on Monday of some su:Ostance that will provide a long-term operator for the mill. Again, Mr. Speaker, it is something that this government has worked at diligently during the last six months. We intend to again get involved after Monday,to look at the proposals to make sure it is a good deal for the Province and it is a good deal for the people of the West Coast..

Our intention above all else is to get a good , long-term operator who is going to continue . to produce newsprint on the West Coast of this Province and we hope that after Monday we 'will be successful. MR .. N~Y: MR. SPEAXER: CRusseTll: MR. · NEARX: Mr. Speaker. The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, could the hon. gentleman grve the·Kouse a~ update on the transfer of the forestry office from his department to Corner Brook? What is happening in that regard? MR·.· SPEAKER,/ The hon. Minister of Forest ResourceS' and Lands • MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, because of some economic downturn in Corner Brook when they laid off 7 50 employees· 1 and 1 I might say 1 in reaction to an announcement - ~· · by the member for that area, Mr. Tobin, and Mr. John Roberts the Minister of Forestry at the time 1 in reaction to an 2594

_ .... .. _ --- ___ :,. .;._._ ...... _ _.:. ... _.__ ·~ -· .. -.:......:.~ ~-~:-·-·- ~ --::...t~ ,;,;.b.;.. _ _ : ..... . -- • .-:- •• -~ .. -- -·-:'.·.·-·-· .. '::·:, -..,_....,'-'-_. __ ,;._ _ _ _ ~_ April 13, 1984 Tape No . 969 SD - 2 MR. POWER: announcement that they made that they would build a forestry research centre in Corner Brook if the provincial governme nt would move our employees to Corner Brook, this governme nt, in resp onse to \-l!lat 1-1e thought was a very fair and honest proposal from the federal Minister responsible for Forestry (Mr.

Roberts) responded and said, 'Yes, we will move our sixty-odd employees who now work in Fore st .ry at Ple asantville, to Corner Brook'. 2595

-~-- - -- --- -·--- --- . April 13, 1984 Tape 970 PK - 1 MR. POWER: we said so --- - - --~ knowning,in effect,the individual hardships that it would cause on our staff ,and the morale problems that it would cause,and possibly also ,some management difficulty, we ·_ : ___ . ./ decided to move our employees to Corner Brook. I am pleased to announce that that move will be completed by June 1 of this year. Forty-odd employees have accepted the transfer to Corner Brook and will be moving by June 1.

Fifteen or so employees have ·found it impossible to move to Corner Brook and will be,I guess,terminated from the Public Service of Newfaundlarld as of June 1. But certainly the move will be completed. The vacancies which will be caused by certain persons not moving will be advertised on the West Coast of the Province and will be available to any person in Newfoundland who wishes to apply. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I assume from the han. gentleman's answer that accommodations and space has been found for the Forestry ·o!fice, .

Am ·I right in my understanding .i --- •. ::! of _the hon. gentleman's answer that no forestry people have yet moved to Corner Brook~ the~ will move before June 1? And could the hon. gentleman als~ while ~e is on his feet, tell the House what attempt is being made to try to find alternative employment,to try to find other employment for the fi.:fteen workers of the Forestr.Y Deparment who will be displaced as a result of this move? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, again just let me say that in Corner Brook we did tender for space, we did have a public tender.

We did obtain space in Corner Brook which will be available as of May 1 and some of our employees 2596

April 13, 1984 Tape 970 PK - 2 MR. POWER: will be there as of May 1. Several of our employees are already in Corner Brook, have already moved. We have found alternative emplo~ent for nine of the employees who were supposed to move either within the department or within government.

We have not 1• despite __ ~ll _c:__f the efforts of t~e senior staff of my departmenb been able to find fifteen jobs for the fifteen persons who decided not to move, __ Thos~·persons 1 if they decide not to move to Corner Brook, which in ,some cases is an unreasonable position on their part, if .they do not wish to move to the West Coast • of this Province,which you would almost think in some person's mind was a part of the Province which was not develope~ - in certainly is a well developed part of the Province; Corner Brook has all of the amenities that anyone might wish - the ' fifteen employees who have not found jobs to this date,we will continue to assist them and to work with them to find a job before June 1.

If on June 1 we have not found an alternate job in the Public Service of Newfoundland 1then they simply will be terminated. } f MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the han. gentleman inform the House if the fifteen displaced persons are senior in the department? Are they junior? Would any of them qualify for early retirement? Is there any way that their income can be protected without having to terminate their services as the hon. gentleman says he is going to do? 2597 / ' j'

··~- April 13, 1984 Tape No. 971 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that most of the employees are or mid-range type of employee, or junior employee ·. They have very specific skills 1 such as map reading and that kind of thing,which is a job that is very specific to the Department of Forestry and Crown Lands. Those ipersons probably will not be elibible for early retirement: _ ~n~ t_~f __ NM - 1 suitable alternate employrnent .is not found before June 1, will -------- -· ------- simply have to be terminated. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman another question. I noticed the other day that the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) opened an office and put some staff in Gander, which is hard hit, as hon. members know, by the pull-out of Eastern Provincial Airways from that town. Has the hon. gentleman discussed with his colleague the possibility of opening a Development office in the city of Corner Brook as they did in Gander the other day? AN HON. MEMBER: They have got one. MR. NEARY: No, they do not. They have a tourist office. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I assume that the Leader of the Opposition is asking questions relating to the Department of Development and as it relates to 2598

--~ ·--·-·---·-_ __... ___ .. __ April 13, 1984 Tape No. 971 NM - 2 MR. POWER: our development corporations around the Province, the one that we will be setting up in Labrador West, the one that we have in Gander, and the others around the Province which will now come under the authority of the Department of Development. And 1 certainly, Mr. Speaker, we have that arrangement in place for Gander • ~.s it relates to other parts of the Province,we haveii-development officer in Corner Brook. Certainly there is no need for development corporations in every given town or every given city.

They will be regional development corporations for the Province which come under the authority of the Department of Development, anc certainly we ' expect them to be able to do a better job under that new system than under the old. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman if the administration there opposite will consider joining with the Government of Canada · and other interested groups,such as the municipalities in the western part of the Province, the unions on the West Coast, to set up a development fund similiar to the one that we are now seeing being established on the Burin Peninsula? ~·!ould the han. gentleman indicate whether or not the administration there opposite has explored that possibility, that avenue that is open to them, to establish a development fund similiar to the fund that is set up on the Burin Peninsula? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. 2599

- - --------- ~--- --· - ---- April 13, 1984 Tape No . 971 NM- 3 MR. POWER: Mr. Speakef, the deve1opitlen'f: fund that was set up on the Burin Peninsula was ~--- insisted upon by this government in the fisheries -- - -- - - - - ----- - restructuring agreement. ':!:'hat development fund was set up in reac,tion to what was then a very catastrophic kind of situation relating: to the close-down of certain plants. On the West Coast of Newfoundland there is no similar situation, there is no closure of large plants. If the Leader o·f the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is considerinq that the mill in Corner Brook is going to close. and t.:.1en you would have to do those kind of things, - - -- - -- - 2600

---- ---- April 13, 1984 Tape 972 EC - 1 MR. POWER: do those kinds of things, that is a very pessimistic kind of situation which this government does not believe in. We are very optimistic that on the West Coast of this Province we are going to have a long-term operator for the mill in Corner Brr0k and the operator is going to be there producing ne\'ISprint for the next fifty or sixty years - ~ -- - - - - or so,With that kind of situation, then certainly there would be no need of a development fund such as the Burin Peninsula fund. The situation is not similar at all. MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER (Russell ) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Indeed we are optimistic~ · As far as we are concerned that mill is not closing. I have to tell the hon. gentleman that, that that mill will not close , as far as .we are concerned. SO~£ HON. M ~~ERS: Oh, oh ! PRE ·ITER PECKFORD: The mines an Bell Island did not close ei~r, I Sl.JP.?Ose. I1R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thought the han. the Premier had taken his one-man circus to the open road and had gone across Canada somewhere. ~I.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman no doubt is aware that there have been major lay-offs in Corner Brook and that the unemployment rate in the Western part of the Province, especially in the :city of Corner Brook, is quite high indeed. Mr. Speaker, many of us have to forego the pleasure and the honour of meeting the President of Portugal this weekend because of the great Economic Conference that is going to be held in the city of Corner Brook. Let me ask 2601

April 13, 1984 Tape 972 EC - 2 MR. NEARY : the han. gentleman if the administration there opposite will be representea at that conference~ who will be representing the govern- ment at the conference? Will the Premier be able to take time out from his one-man circus to drop in to Corner Brook for a few minutes with his new Logo that was designed on the mainland and not here in this Provinc.e, ll:lr • Speak~r? _ PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. WARREN: PREMIER PEC:KFORD: 1\!R. NEARY: Do not he_so silly! It cost $600. sorry to a~sappoint you. .Mr. Spe~aker, jif t:1e one - :"lan , __ circus is qoing to take to _the_ open ro<;id .. - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudib l

e) in Port de Grave last night. MR. NEARY: Four hundred and twenty-five registered for an annual meeting in Port de Grave last night - 425. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is now entering: into the reaL"!! of debate instead of posing a question. 26J2

. . . April 13, 1984 Tape No. 973 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: I was asked a question, ~!Jr. Speaker. 425 registered at an annual meeting for election of officers in Port de Grave last night. MR. TOBIN: How come Barry is out in Port aux Basques in your district? MR. MORGAN: What is going on over there? MR. NEARY: He is down announcing the gold mine, Mr. Speaker, announcing offshore drilling and a gold mine for Burnt Island Pond1and $1.5 million BP exploration in LaPoile Bay. MR. SPE~ER (Russell} : Order, please! Order, please! This is the second time I ask the·hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary/ to pose a question. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The question I was putting to the hon. gentleman had to do with the economic conference on the West Coast, Could the hon. gentleman tell the House i£ there will be any proposals put on the table in Corner Brook at this great economic conference that is being held in Corner Brook this weekend? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, just let me say first off that I am very delighted ~at the Leader of the Opposition has made a commitment to keep the Corner Brook mill open, we are delighted with that news over here~ certainly it is of great substance. I just hope that he is able to get a little bit moDe co-operation from his federal Liberals, ~oJhorn thev continually denounce in this House -the ~.inister of Fisheries federally (Mr. De Bane} is a liar, the Minister of the Environment federally (Mr.

Caccia} has been called a liar and almost impossible to deal with by the member for Corner Brook, the Liberal member -so there ar:e all kin~.s of ~eople in the J,iberal 2603

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 973 MJ - 2 MR. POWER: Party of Newfoundland, Liberals provincially, who cannot be Liberals federally when it comes to the things that federal Liberals are doing. , Let us hope that when it comes to keeping the mill open- that you do get the co-operation of the federal LiberaL: Party. As it relates to a development fundand ~the Corner Brook unemployment rate, it is probably no more significant in Corner Brook than it is in many other parts of Newfoundland.

If we are going to have a development fund,-again would you irn~ress upon vour federal - - -------- - counterparts: the persons that you denounce sometimes and pra.llse sometimes - ' ~ould__Y?.~- ~ sk ~~ se federal Liberals,-· -Ehe Government of Canada, to establish a ' .. •- joint development fund for all of this Province because all ~...e need is a fair deal on the · re-sou:~:c-es that we have. There is a·' joint development fund off our coast if we can get a fair dea~ so therefore, Mr.

Speaker, a development fund for Corner Brook is no more necessar y than one for the general parts of the Province which we could have if,we did get a fa±t shake. As it relates to the .. r:conomic Council ~eeting in Corner Brook, Ms. Verge will certainly be there representing her district and the government, also the han. Neil Windsor, my colleague.the Minister of Development, will be the guest speaker at a dinner tomorrow night and will be in Corner Brook for the weekend- I think left vesterdav ----·-- - - to drive to Corner Brook.

Certainly all of ---- ----- ------- -- the sta£f of the De~artrnent of Development will be there, the minister will be there,and certainly Mr. Windsor will be announcing certain things as it relates to the general Corner Brook area. MR. CALLAN: J'!r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the member for Bellevue. 2604

April 13, 1984 Tape NO. 973 MJ - 3 MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the Corne By Chance -oil r~finery is being scrapped, the Corne By Chance Hospital ~being closed 1 and the Markland Hospital is already closed~ - -- - ---- -- -- - 2605

- ---~~ ·----- ·· April 13, 1984 Tape No. 974 SD - 1 MR. CALLAN: It looks like the district of Bellevue, Mr. Speaker, is going to the dogs-thanks to this government. r want to ask the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands CMr. Power) . what is the status of the p~ans.by a St. J·ohn •·s lawyer to devel-op a beagle farm - smm- HON. MEMBER .S : Hear, hear : r-m. CALLAN: ~ on fifty acres of land in the general Bellevue B·each Park- Chance Cove · area? Myself and the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands discussed this matter a few days ago.

I want to ask the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands what is the s·tatus? They have appr_9va_l in principle. A Canada Works grant is presently operative there but the. minister nas it in his power to stop this beagle farm. Does the minister intend to stop it? What is the status of it? MR. SPEAKER ~usse:ll l : Resources· and Lands. 'MR'.· POWEll: The hon. Minister of Forest Mr. Speaker, I am fully aware of the situation as it relates, r think, to the Bellevue Beagle Club and its application for fifty acres of Crown land. Again i~ is an example, Mr.

Speaker, of how the provincial Liberals and the federal Liberals · do not seem to see eye to eye. What has hap-pened is that the federal Liberal member for the area went out and approved .a grant or one of these Canada Works type programmes for $200,000 or so to fence fifty acres of land for the beagle club. SOME HON '. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR.

POWER: When the local reaction from Liberals and others is against that decision of the federal Liberals · 1 then they have the provincial department in a bind as· to whether we approve a land grant so you can get some employment for the four or five workers who are supposed to be involved in thi~ fencing project. So the problem relates · not so much to the provincial government but .to 2606

-----...... --·---- April 13, 1984 Tape No. 974 SD - 2 MR. POWER: the federal Liberal member for the area who approved the grant for a club even though they had no access to land~ But then the pressure is put on the provincial government to supply land so that four or five people can get a job. The status of the Crown land application is that it is being reconsidered by the senior officials of my department and by myself. We have a problem with the land, it is a very large amount of land for a ~eagle club.

We think that maybe all that land is not necessary but again we are caught in the bind, Mr, Speaker, that the federal Liberal member for the area approved the grant and now· we have four or five people 1 who 1 if we do not supply land 1 will not get a job. Again, Mr. Speaker, we will do what is fair and reasonable. If the Bellevue Beagle Club needs some land,which is reasonable and fair 1 we will give them that land. But if the amount of land is unreasonable and unfair,then they will not get that much. land. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR . .-SPEAI<ER ~usse:11. I.: The hen. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. I think the. minister I$ as awa,re as r am that what we have here is· the makings· of a land grab by a St. John 1' s lawyer who has a few-friends in the area and has a Summer cabin. Wi.ll the minister answer the question directly or not. The minister is trying to evade the issue. He is 2607

--·- ·-·- - ··- .::; --~ ~--~-- -· ---~------ - ·-·---~- _____ __;;_ _____ _ _ April 13, 1984, Tape 975, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN : saying the federal government has put this government in a compromising position. The minister knows that nothing can hap.pen unless prior approval is given regaxding the land. So I ask the minister, again ., does the mini .ster intend to cancel. this foolish project? MR. SPEAKERCRussell}: The han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Again, Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in my previous answer, we will consider the application.

If we think it is reasonable and fair, then we will do it. But,again,the whole problem could have been sol.ved if the member for Bel.levue (Mr. Callan) _ had been consul.ted by the federal Liberal member and asked for his opinion on this project. Then this project would not have been appro .ved by the f7deral Liberal government, for $200,000, to fence fifty acres for a beagle club. So if there was any kind of consultative process between the member for Bel.levue and the federal member for the area, then the project would probably never have been approved;.

Now that is has been approved, and you have four or five persons waiting to go to work, our department will deal with the application as fairl.y as we can and as quickly as we can. MR. CALLAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bellevue on a final supplementary. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands(Mr. Power) whether or not he received correspondence from the town council in Chance Cove and from the Rural Development Associations in that area weeks ago objecting to this? 2688 -·

April 13, 1984, Tape 975, Page 2 -- apb MR. CALLAN: Because it has been on the go for months. And, of course, th.e reason that the federal grant was approved was because the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands(Mr. Power), or his department, had given approval in principle for fifty acres for this beagle farm. How many written objections did the minister's department receive regarding this matter? MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, let me say that the first time I became aware of this project was when the very hard working member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan} and the Minister of Fisheries of this Province happened to attend a Rural De .velopment Conference, I think, in the area and brought back this- MR. CAL .LAN: Long Harbour. MR. MORGAN: Long Harbour. MR. POWER: - problem and brought it to my attention. Since that time I have discussed it with the member for Bell.e.vue(Mr. Callan)_.

Ce:r:::tainly there was no approval in principle • There _, was an ' application received, there is no permit to occupy given to the Bel~evue Beagle Club, and,until such time as a permit to occupy is given ':and a lease actually appro.ved, then in effect they have no right to occupy any land in Newfoundland. MR. CALLAN: They are occupying it. MR. POWER: They have no right to occupy any land until they get an actual approval from us and therefore the project will very likely be forced to cease until the application is dealt with and either the land appr .oved or rejected. 2609

April 13, 1984, Tape '975; Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of Mr. Speaker, I do not know what is happening in the world, to be honest with you. MR. ANDREWS: know. MR. NEARY: We know you did not A crowd of dog owners from West Germany came over yesterday and.brought their dogs over on a plane and I am told they were sitting in the seats on the plane and staying at ~e Holiday Inn. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: I think the whole world. is gone to the dogs, Mr. Speaker, if you ask me anything. But, Mr.

Speaker, seeing it is Friday the 13th., I cannot let the weekend come and go without giv.~g the Minister responsible for · Energy (Mr. Marshall)his nasty pills for the day, I am going - .. -- ----- to ask him if he will · 2610

---· __ ...__ __ _ April 13,1984 Tape No. 976 ah-1 MR. NEARY: tell the House if the administration there opposite is prepared to send the same list of questions to Mr. Mulroney that the administration sent to Mr.Chretien as a precondition to any talks or any agreement on the offshore? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Except by leave the Question Period has expired. MR.NEARY: Well,we have to get the answer to that one, By leave, of course. MR. SPEAKER: have leave? SOME HON .MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Does the hon. minister Agreed. Agreed. The hon. President Mr.

Speaker, we set no preconditions, we never set preconditions. All we do 1 and have done and will do 1is ask for equality for the people of Newfoundland in Confederation. We have asked that of Mr. Chretien, we have asked it of Mr. Mulroney, we will ask it of Mr. Turner, we will ask it of any person at all. We will ask any person in the federal government that the people of Newfoundland be given the same equal rights as Canadians as other Canadians -- . enjoy. The hon. gentleman talks about dogs, Mr. Speaker. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is starting to get nasty now so we w~thdraw the leave.

Leave is withdrawn, Mr.Speaker. He is anti-Confederate and anti-Canadian. MR.MARSHALL: We will not act like lapdogs like the hon. gentlemen do. MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! There was some leave given to the hon. President of the Council 2611 .-

April 13,1984 Tape No. 976 ah-2 MR.SPEAKER" (Russell): (Mr.Marshall) and I understand now it has been withdrawn. Before we proceed 1 I would like to welcome to the galleries today sixty-five students from the Laval High School in Placentia with their teachers 1 Don Ash and Barbara Leonard. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Motion 6.

Motion, the han. the Minister of Labour and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To Govern Collective Bargaining Between The Government Of The Province And The Interns And Residents In The Province," carried. (Bill No. 19) On motion, Bill No. 19 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the han. the Minister of Labor and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act," carried. (Bill No. 18) On motion, Bill No. 18 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the han. the Minister of Culture,Recreation and :Youth to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Preservation Of The Historic Resources Of The Province," carried. (Bill No. 12) On motion, Bill No. 12 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 2612

April 13,1984 Tape No. 976 ah-3 Motion, the hon. the Minister of Education to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Education (Teachers' Pensions ) Act," carried. (Bill No . 15) On motion, Bill No . 15 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 3, Concurrence Motion on Resource Committee, ad journed motion . MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The Concurrence Motion on Resource Committee .was adjourned the last day , I believe, by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY : Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say that I to welcome the students in the gallery today . I must say they are handsome lookin g boys and beautiful looking young ladies, 2613

April 13, 1984 Tape 977 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: I am delighted to see them ·. here, Mr. Speaker, so they can observe what goes on in the people's House. I only wish that more schools would bring their - MR. CALLAN: I have thirty-five coming on Monday. MR. NEARY: My hon. colleague for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) says he has thirty-five coming on Monday. ~ -~ - "' Although we have had students from as far away as ------ -- - Port aux Basques, unfortunately because of distance it is virtually impossible for a lot of the high school students to visit the people's House. And, Mr.

Speaker, sometimes when they do come,if they sit in the gallery and just observe what is happening,they may think that we are awfully childish down here sometimes on the floor. No doubt watching the House of Commons and watahing the proceedings of this House, a lot of people who sit in the public galleries, some J __ ,_ are regular visitors,. must observe that nothing is being done, that all they ever do down there is drink water, send little notes to each other, read neewspapers - MR. CALLAN: .i Throw ice, cubes. MR. NEARY: - slouch in their chairs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! MR. NEARY: And as my hon. colleague says, 1 Throw ice cubes.' But the fact of the matter is that the work manages to get done. The House of Assembly is really a debating forum. One of the principal reasons for the House being in existence at all is to pass estimates, pass supply, to give the government authority to collect and 2614

- ·--·----··--- ............... --~· April 13, 1984 Tape 977 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: spend taxpayer dollars. So that is the main function of the House and, of course, you have all heard the saying that i£ you remove the power of the purse from the House of Assembly,the House then becomes practically useless. It may as well not exist unless you have the power to control public spending. And in between there are all :kinds of other things done like passing legislation, debating , talking about government policy.

And I must say in the last four or five years it has been very easy to talk about government policy because they do not have any policy. As you know,we have record unemployment throughout the Province, we have the highest taxes in the nation. About ' ------ 45 per cent of the unemployed are between the ages of sixteen and twenty-five 1 a pretty dismal outlook for young people for the future, unless of course we can get a change of government. Because obviously this administration, this government are not going to change their direction, they are not going to change their policies.

They refuse to admit that they have been wrong, that they have a whole string of failures behind them. They cannot point their finger at one success, Mr. Speaker. And because they refuse to change their course,to alter their course, you know, it is like a ship headed for the rocks and the captain is standing on the bridge and the helmsman says to the captain, 'Look, Skipper,we are headed for the rocks'. And the Skipper says, 'Well, let her go,boy, I do not care. Let her go for the rocks'. Too stubborn to alter his course, let her go in on the rocks. Well,that is what is happening across the way, Mr.

Speaker, she is headed for the rocks, she is rudderless, nobody on the bridge, and they refuse to change their course. So the only thing that we can do is to appeal to the population, 2615

·-·-- ·-"···- ____ , :,.-..,;.......,: _____ "_ --- ~ April 13, 1984 Tape No. 978 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: to the e~ectorate, to the voters, to change the government. If they are too stubborn and sulky, Mr.

Speaker, .to change the direction that they have been following in the last five years, that apparently is the wrong direction because of all the failures that they have had, if they are holding themselves up as being greedy negotiators and too lazy to stay in their office, roll up their sleeves and work hard for the people of this Province, then the only thing that we can do is to try to get them turfed out, and we try to get that message across in the House, through the parliamentary press gallery up here over my head.

I do not know if there is anybody sitting in the parliamentary press gallery at the moment, but if they are not sitting there they are inside with their earphones on, listening to what is being said in the House,' and we hope that some of the stuff that we say will be reported. MR. CARTER: They are not listening to you. MR. NEARY: Now we know that the garbage- and the rubbish from the Savory Kid from Mount Scio will not be reported, Mr. Speaker. That will not be reported. We understand that. We take that for granted.

But we are hoping that some of the things we say will be reported because the press are the eyes and the ears of the people of this Province, and we want to get our message out to the people. And that is the name of the game. So while it may look sometimes like not too much is being accomplished, a lot is being accomplished. Legislation is being passed, laws are being made, the Clerk, sitting at the table of the House, and the law clerks keep the bills coming in, and eventually 2616

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 978 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: the legislation gets through. It may seem like a slow, tedious process, but 1Mr. Speaker, laws are made. But I tell what I get disillusioned about, and that is why I am so happy to see so many young people in the galle ries today, what I get disillusioned over is the fact that most people do not care, they do not seem to worry too much about what happens in the House of Assembly. They elect their representatives and they send them into House, and /they never hear tell of them until the next --- - election when they are back looking for votes.

Nobody bothers to ask what they are doing for their distr~ct or for their Province, they just sit here like useless lumps, like the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), the useless hulk, sitting there day in and day out, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! I would like to remind the people who are in the gallery that it it not permissable to partake in the debate in any way, such as by applause or laughter. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I am sure, Mr.

Speaker, that if they could they would certainly applaud what I am saying here today about the administration there opposite. If they could only stand in their places, these young people, and tell the politicians and the government of this Province what they think of them, Mr. Speaker, I guarantee you you would hear something. Anyway, I am not going to belabour the point except to say to these young people that what we are doing at the moment is a little bit of a farce. The government changed the House rules three or four years ago and when they changed the rules 2617

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 978 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: they made drastic changes to try to remove the authority, to try to take the estimates, the debating of supply ana money, off the floor of the House, and they put it down in the old Colonial .Building and in the board rooms of various building and offices around St. John's. And as a result, Mr. Speaker; we are unable today to scrutinize the estimates like we used to. One time the estimates were thoroughly debated and scrutinized on the floor.of this House. MR. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : A point of order, the hon. member for· St.

John's North. MR. CARTER: The Leader of the Opposition is again demonstrating his utter irresponsibility towards : the facts. The estimates are able to be debated not only more intensely, but also more openly because of the new system of scrutinizing them in Committee. 2618

·,--~ --_, --..... ~-!-~--'--· -~___..::_ ....:...._ ·- April 13, 1984 Tape No. 979 so -1 MR. CARTER: Furthermore, more possible time is allocated to the scrutiny of the estimates than was ever used,except once,in the whole history of this House of Assembly. Something like ninety hours is made available to the Committees of which less than 75 per cent is ever used. So it is unfair, it is incorrect, it is misleading ~his House and I would say it is done from the worst of motives.' I think he should be called to order. MR. NEARY: To tihat point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (.Aylward! : To that point cf order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour knows that is not a point of order. Mr. Speaker, it is merely a technique that the hon. gentleman uses to get his opinion on the floor of the House to show what an ignorant incompetent he is of the rules of the House and of the procedure and how the system works·. And I would say that Your Honour will rule that there is no point of order, it is merely a difference of opinion between two hon. members. MR. SPEAKER: Order 1 please!' There is no point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: There you go~ Mr. Speaker,, Riqht on again. Mr. Speaker, so when they changed the rules they promtsed that they would review the rules after one year,and that was four or five years ago. So far they have re£us,ed to give us that review., MR'. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. memner for St. John~s North. MR. CARTER: When misinformation is presented to this House, I think han. members not only have a right to rise ±n their place and dispute it 1 I think they have a duty. 2619

------- ... _ .. --· ·--~-~~-=.--- -------~ 4. April 13~ 1984 Tape No. 979 SD - 2 MR. CARTER: If there is a letter,as the hon. Leader of the Opposition ~r. Nearyl says there is 1 let him produce it. I' have no doubt that he can produce such a letter but r am equally sure that the ink would not be dry on it . MR. NEARY: To that point of order~ Mr, Speaker, MR. _ SPE::~ ~l,Wa,l:'"d[; To tfl.a,t }?O.i:n ;t. o;li o:;>d,e.J:; ·1 tb:e hen .• Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY': Mr. _ Speaker 1 somebody should do some research in tl'i:i_$:' J?rovtnce to find out tf you can ge .t toked out on savory · , · Because · ~ am · sur ·e that sometfting !i.a,ppens · to the hon. gentleman in the: WJ.'nte.rtirne when he cannot get outdoors- 1 when he is in his shed packaging up his little packages of savory,that something happens to him and we see evidence of that in this han. House, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To that point of order, I wish to draw to hon. members •· attention that there is no point of order in this case 1 but each hon. member will have the opportunity to debate his side of the debate in ten minute turns. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what we are doing ... - ..... ·- -- -~ --· --- --- ---- --- now 1 because the government refuses . to review the rules 1 we are forced to debate the estimates in a general kind of a way . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ The hon. _ mernber' ·s time has expired. The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, first of all let me say that I had little intention of entering into this debate here toda~ but the hon. Leader of the Opposition continues to attack members of St. John 1's for representing their people and he continues to say they do nothing on behalf of their 2620

April 13, 19.84 Tape No. 979 so - 3 MR. DINN: constituents, etc. Well,I have to admit, Mr. Speaker, that tne members for the districts within the ooundaries of the city of St. John•s do ·not often blow their own horns, perhaps they should. r can t:,ell the hon. L.eader of the Opposition CMr. Neary} that certainly since 1975 when r got elected to the district of Pleasantville there has· oeen something of tfie order of $200 million spent in the city of St, John ~s or in the st. John •s region. I rem.tnd the hon. I.ea.der of the Opposition of the great Harbour Arterial Road that was cost shared with the federal government. -·---------------·---- 2621

April 13, 1984 Tape 980 EC - 1 MR. DINN: I also remind the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) of the Bay Bulls, Big Pond system that cost the provincial government $10 million and the federal government $35 million; the different regional water systems and sewer systems that have been put in, the Waterford Valley relief trunk se~·rer, the Rennies River trunk sewer, the Northeast trunk sewer and the Pleasantville trunk sewer in this cit~ that cost nillions of dollars. Just this week, Mr. Speaker, I attended a press conference with the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor) where he announced a $20 million housing programme for the city of St. John's. Mr. Speaker, I also attended a press conference with the Minister of Transportation (~x. Dawe) 1 who announced a $9 million roads agreement for the city of St. John's in that area of the district where the boundaries were expanded several years ago. The $9 million agreement includes roads in the district of Pleasantville and in the district of St. John's East Extern. I also can inform the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that over the next ten years or so there is a plan developed for the city of st.

John's, which includes something of the order of $150 million which will need to be expended. And I am sure all the members representing the districts in St. John's will'be lobbying, not only the provincial government but the federal government, to make sure that this city receives the infrastructure that it needs for the oncoming development in the offshore and other developments. The Northeast water main will need to be done at a cost of about $5 million. The Rennies River sewer extension will need to be done to Kenmount Hill, 2622 .

_ __; ,. .~~ - ·-·- · . '• -. ~.,. . ;·. . - ··-. April 13, 1984 Tape 980 EC - 2 MR. DINN: which will cost $10 million. The Outer Ring road will have to be started veFY soon and, as a matter of fact, the White Hills road that was announced a week or so ago will be a start, in a way, to the Outer Ring road. The East End arterial road will have to be completed at a cost of about $8 million. The Northeast trunk sewer : ~-Jill cost $2 I!'.illion, and that is from Penetanguishene to P~easantville; plus the Penetanguishene water reservoir will have to be completed at a cost of $7 million.

There will be a realignment of Portugal Cove Road and the Penetanguishene by-pass that will need to be done at a cost of $3 million. The East- West arterial, Pennywell Road to the Harbour arterial at $25 million; the bifurcation, cross-town arterial to the East-West arterial will have to be done at a cost of $10 million. So all the planning for the city of St. John's is well underway. Many of the things that need to be done have been done,and many of the things that will need to be done in the future are well into the planning stage and will be done over the next few years. Another thing, Px.

Speaker, I would like to say to the han. the Leader of the Opposition (~. Neary) is that becauGe of the attitude of the federal government, we have had to assist Canadian National to do the synchrolift in the West End of the city of St. John's, in the distric·t of St. John's South, that \'Jill have an ·- -- - --- --- impact on Your Honour and, o£ course, the r:le!Cibers re!)resenting all the districts in the city of St. John's. I also ~..rant to say, Mr. Speaker, because it is not normalJ .u said, that in 1975 when an assess- -~ - -. ment was done, a municipal review ~one- there was 2623

- --- --~- .;:-~ --'---· --~"!·:"'"" '----- ·- -· - ---~-~~ -~ ·~-- - -;-~- ·--.:...· _, April 13, 1984, Tape 981, Page 1 -- apb MR. DINN: the Henley Commission, and there was another commission reviewing the municipal financing structures in the Province. The Whelan Royal Commission and several others reviewed the municipal structures - ~t was found when that review was done ' that the City of St. John's was indeed being treated unfairly wzth respect to financing. As a result of that commission we passed a new Municipal Grants Act.

As a matter of fact, I was Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing at the time that Act was put through this House of Assembly, and there was a new Municipalities Act put through by the now Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) who followed me in Municipal Affairs. As a result of that,the City of St. John's basically got a windfall that I am sure hon. members are not aware of. We constantly hear the Mayor of St.

John's say at times how much it costs for the Fire Department, and the Fire Department costs are very heavy, but I will say that when the new municipal grants system became effective in 1980, that the City of St. John's previous to that time had been given no municipal financing by the provincial government~ outside of the capital works that we performed, zero ' ; dollars. Now, we did participate in some areas.

For example, we gave small little grants to Bowring Park, $10,000 a year; for motor vehicle registration,etc.,we gave $10,000; for paving debt charges we paid something like $74,000, but there were no grants made available to the city. And when the assessment was done we said why should, number one, the provincial government be paying for the Fire Department in the City of St. John's? The city should pay for that as all other municipalities do, and also the City of St. John's should receive its share in municipal grants, whether it is the tax incentive grant or the municipal assistance grant, And so that is 2624

:. ~--·-~--· --~--' . --·-------~------~-~·- April 13, 1984, Tape 981, Page 2 --apb MR. DINN: basically what we did. We implemented many of the recommendations of the Whelan Royal Commission Report and as a result of that in 1980 the municipal grant given to the city was $2,656,897, the tax incentive grant was $4,623,197, for a total of $7,280,094. The Fire Department cost then were subtracted. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. S.peaker. MR. SPEAKER;(Aylward): A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I notice there is not a quorum in the House.

The members should be here when the hen. gentleman is speaking. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order, please! There is a quorum present. Is .:it agreed to continue? .$ HON. MEMBERS : Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: So, Mr. Speaker, as a result of the actions of not only the previous administration but this administration, the City of St. John's is now being treated more fairly. So we now give them a general municipal assistance grant,as we do all other municipalities, and we give them a tax incentive grant and, as I said, in 1980. that totalled $7,280,094.

Then we subtracted what we had been paying for the Fire Department and charged the "' --- city for their fire department. 2625

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 982 MJ - 1 MR. DINN: That fire department expense~ was $4,297,359 1but net to the city in 1980, which they had never received before, ,wa:sr:$2,982,735. So the city basically in 1980 got a windfall. ~hey had never received anything from the provincial government before, during the hen. the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary) te~ as a minister in government and during that administration, and it took some years for us to do an assessment but we eventually came up with a pretty fair or a relatively fair system so that the City of St. John's now is being treated a little more fairly. MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! The hon. the member's time has elapsed. MR. DINN: I will get on to it a little later, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. nhe Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just want to point out for the benefit of those who may have been listening to the hen. gentleman,and obviously not too many people were listening because the han. members would not sit in the House, they had gone out wandering around drinking coffee and having a draw while the hon. gentleman was up, Mr.

Speaker, being very boring and tedious and monotonous, trying to take credit for th!io:ngs-'that the city council does-and the federal government. The hon. gentleman was reading off a list of projects and if anybody did not know the difference they would say it is an impressive list. The hen. gentleman had as much ~o do with these projects as he did with the CN Tower in Toronto or the Olympic Center that is being built in British Columbia, that is how much he had to do with it. 2626

April 13, 1984 MR. WARREN: Islands. MR. NEARY: Islands. .. • Tape No .982 !-'T..J - 2 Or the war in the Falkland Or the war in the Falkland It is a good thing that we have a good mayor:. The han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, has tried to steal a little credit from Mayor Murphy and the city council,and from the federal government. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the St. qohn's members have an easy time of it, they have an easy job, they have the easiest time of all because the city does their work for them,- street lights, sidewalks, curb and gutter, building regulations.

I mean,what does the hon. gentleman do down in Pleasantville~ ~t is what I would like to know~ What does he do to justify . ·his existence as a metnbe!r? Because I it is a part of the city, it is in the city limits and the city does all the work. The same way with the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall). No wonder he can be a part-time Cabinet Minister and actively practise ·law at the same time, is it any wonder? Well,the city is doing all the work for him in his district, Mr. Speaker. Let us dismiss that forthright.

I was giving a little lesson earlier about the proceedings .­ of the House to those ~ ho rnay r,be in the gallery for t.he first time and I was ~laining that the government refused to review the rule -changes so we are forced to debate matters, not i~em by-' item. One time we used to take the Estimates and we would say, 'Subhead so-and-so, Subhead so-and-so! If there was an increase or a decrease in it you could ask questions about it 1 You could say, 'What kind of project is it? What kind of policies are these?. -': and so forth, but you cannot do that any more.

The only thing we can do today is kind of have a 2627

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 982 MJ- 3 MR. NEARY: general discussion, and that is what we are doing right now. And we are having a discussion on five departments of government, Fisheries, Mines and Energy, Development, Rural, Agricultttral and Northern Development and Forest Resources and Lands,so I can only raise matters in &Rind of a general way. One time in this House we had unlimited time. The crowd there opposite have now restricted ·. 2628

9---- ·' ----- - --- - -~ -.....:...__-~ · ---~· --~- ~---- -- --:. ~ April 13, 1984 Tape 983 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: debate to seventy-five hours on the estimates. And what they are trying to do, Mr. Speaker, they are chipping away at the authority of this House, they are moving it down on the eighth floor of Confederation Building and they are moving it out into the ~oa-:iroorns, and ,if they are a·llowed to continue _; very much longer in power,the House will have no authority at all .' ~~d that would be a shame because, Mr.

Speaker, even though it may seem like a slow process 7 there is nothing in the world that should take the place of democracy. We pat't'ern ourselves after the British parliamentary system of __ _ --:; _ government .' and I do not know of anything in the world that can equal it. There is nothing that can take the place of democracy. And , Mr. Speaker, I would defend the system any day in the week,even though sometimes in the House you may seem like you have to wear your hard hat so you will not get hit with a flying ice cube. So, Mr.

Speaker, let us get on and see if we can ask some questions then about these five dgpartments that we are talking about today. I would like to come back to the pulp and paper industry because one of the department's that we are dealing with is Forest Resources and Lands. Members may recall a few days ago, last week I believe it was,the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) when he was speaking somewhere in the Province, not in Grand Falls, by the way, or not in this House - I~R'. CliLLl\N : In Lewisporte. MR.

NEARY: No, it was not Lewisporte,it was somewhere else he was speaking that ' .day, And he made a statement that angered the people of Grand Falls, that gave the people of Grand Falls grave concern about the future of their mill. And anybody who follows current events in Newfoundland will remember what I am saying,that the Minister 2629

---"------···-- ________ :.... ___ -~ ~-_:..~J ... ~~ ---.:::;;,~ ---:~ April 13, 1984 Tape 983 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: of Forest Resources and Lands · (Mr.

Power) somewhere in the Province, I do not remember where he was- they are galavanting around so much they will use any excuse to get out of the House or get out of their office so they will not have to concern themselves with the problems of the people of this Province ·:· - he said that the paper mill in Grand Falls a few years from now, somewhere down the road 1unless they introduce new technology and refurbish the mill would run into the same problems that the Bowater mill did in Corner Brook. Now that was pretty heavy stuff,Mr. Speaker. That was a pretty serious statement.

The problem with the stat~ent was that the hen. gentleman left it hanging in the air- he did not elaborate on ito he did not clarify it'- and so the people in Grand Falls have been left hanging, they do not know what to think about their mill. Mr. Speaker, the people in Grand Falls thought their mill was secure. As a matter of fact,I kept saying before that that every major town and community in Newfoundland was in economic trouble except Grand Falls, only one. 2.630

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 984 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: ------------------ --- Io .'and behold 1the minister could .not stand that, to have one successful venture in this Province. He could not stand that. This shut-her-down government, close everything dow~ could not stand to hear that Grand Falls was prosperous and that Grand Falls may survive and that Grand Falls was not in economic trouble. The minister could not stand that. And in keeping with the tradition of the administration of closing everything down, of doom_and gloom, the minister had to create some doubt about the Grand Falls mill. And that is what he did, Mr.

Speaker. Is that not right? That is what he did. He created doubt about the long-term future of the Grand Falls mill. And the han. gentleman owes it to the people of Grand Falls to stand in his place in this House today, now that I have raised the matter, and clarify the situation for the people of Grand Falls. What did he mean? Nhat needs to be done to upgrade that - ~ ---=- -- --~ --..::.__ · =- - - _-_:_ __ -- -· -- -- -- . mill? MR. CALLAN: A small power failure. MR. NEARY: I did not know I was that effective that the lights started flickering on and off. The next thing I will be out walking on water, Mr.

Speaker. MR. CARTER: Have a look at the clock and see if it has stopped. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman owes it to the people of Grand Falls to make a statement today to reassure them that everything possible is being done to ensure the long-range future of that mill, that if they need assistance and help, or expertise to get the new technology that is necessary, that the provincial 2631

---:""~ .:. - :::":" ·--· -·- ~- --- . -... ______ .., ---..: ~ ·-- -··-· April 13, 1984 Tape No. 984 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: government will help the company in any way they ,can, and that they will approach the federal government for a joint venture, if necessary, to see to it that that mill survives, Mr. Speaker. I think tpe han. gentleman should do that. We are getting letters and phone calls from people in Grand Falls and surrounding areas wanting to know what the minister meant by the statements that he made.

The han. gentleman did not have the courtesy or the decency to make statements in Grand Falls, or here in the House so we could question him about them. He made them in some foreign place, some place that was foreign to Grand Falls. And the news media fed the information back, Mr. Speaker. And it will be shameful indeed if the han. gentleman does not clear .up that element of doubt, that dark cloud that he has put over the town of Grand Falls. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to have an update from the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) on the Harmon Corporation.

Does the Harmon Corporation come under the han. gentleman? !-IR. POWER: No. Development. MR. NEARY: Okay. Fine. Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) should be in his seat today . I hope the han. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) heard what I had to say about Grand Falls. --------" -- MR. POWER: I heard it again. 2632

-~- ~ April 13, 1984 Tape No. 984 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: Well., what I am asking the han. gentleman to do is to remove that dark cloud that he has put over Grand Falls with his rash and irresponsible 1 off-the~cuff statements~ creating doubt -- ------ about the long-term future of that mill. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! The han. member's time has expired. The han. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I apologize to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) that I was not in my seat to hear al], of his · comments but I guess . ·-· - -· " that is the general. tenor ·as th~y relate to Grand Falls. Let me say,first of all 1 that my conunents,when I spoke in Stephenville and mentioned, as I have on many occasions, the situation as it relates to Grand Falls, were not irresponsible, they were not shortsighted, they were not . off- the -cuff, they were ve .ry well thought out . and written into my speech to say that in Newfoundland we have a problem as it relates to the modernization of indu~try, it is ·a -- ------- __ ..;,. problem that is typical of 2633

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 985 SD - 1 MR. POWER: much of Eastern Canada in the newsorint industry,where ~he industry first began and obviously nmv is the oldest, t\•here -- --- you have to be modern in order to compete. If you are not modern you simply will not be involved in the pulp and paper business. In Stephenville we have an exceptionally good operation, probably one of the very best in the world, producing, in some people's mind, the best sheet of newsprint in the world. So in Stephenville we have one end of the scale,which is excellent.

It is guaranteed for the next twenty-five or thirty years to be ultramodern and guaranteed to produce newsprint as efficientlT as can be done. rn Corner Brook 1 at the other end of the scale 1 we have a mill which is antiquated 1 which has not been modernized, a mill which is going to require now in excess of $150 million to $200 million to modernize. We need $30 million or $40 million in Corner Brook irnrnediately 1 today, just to make the thing work for the next five or six years.

And if you want it to work beyond the next five or six ye~rs,you are going to require in excess of $150 millio~ : And if you really wanted to do, I guess, an excellent job in Corner Brook, like has been done in Stephenville 1 you would go into Corner Brook with $300 million, put in a couple of new paper machines like S~'s, ~nd then you would have in Corner Brook an operation that was absolutely save and secure,from a modernization point of view and an efficiency point of view,for the next ten or fifteen or thirty or forty years, I guess, if you put in new machines.

In Grand Falls you have the middle of the scale, You do not have a mill that is as modern as Stephenville, you do not have a mill that is as antiquated as Corner Brook 1 but you do have a mill that has to be modernized. Nothing in the newsprint industry is 2634

....... · -·- ·---- ·----- - -· April 13, 1984 Tape No. 985 SD - 2 MR. POWER: more consistent than the need to modernize your machinery and your equipment. In Grand Falls the company has identified a $30 million problem: . It may be a little bit less or a little :be more than $30 million , but it is in that range. It is a problem where the mill has to do certain things to modernize if it is going to avoid putting itself in the situation that Bowater is in today.

Ten years from now,if nobody puts a cent in the Grand Falls mill for the next ten years, ten years from now, in 1994, somebody will be in this Kouse and someone will be over there. on either side, asking questions a:bout if you have ~respective buyers for Grand Falls, if you have some proposals on the table. They have to do about $30 million worth of work on the machinery that is now there. MR. NEARY: 'Po. new Machine or '·That? MR. POWER: No, a new machine w ~ uld cost in excess of $110 million. So it is work to modernize the ' old machines.

Now t~ problem has been in Grand Falls, as r said in Stephenville, which was certainly thought out and which I have said on many other occasions in Newfoundland in the last five or six months, . but the problem in Grand Falls is a $30 million problem. Again 1 it does not len~ itself to the same catastrophic kind of scenario that might work out in Corner Brook 1 because in Grand Falls you have a Canadian newsprint company, the largest producer of newsprint in the world, .

Abitibi-Price , who have made a commitment to stay in the newsprint business in Canada 1 and particularly in Newfoundland with their investment in Stephenville. The woods operations that they have are substantial and they have given this government - the Premier and r met with them less than six weeks ago- and thev have given us eve~y commitment that ·they intend to stay in Newfoundland. The problem they · have,as is the problem with all the newsprint i-ndustry in 19.83 and 1984 1 is that they do not have the cash 2635

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 985 SD - 3 MR. POWER: flows required to do a $30 million modernization renovation kind of programme. When cash flows do improve 1 Abitibi.:..Price have given us the understanding that they certainly would be willing and are anxious to get involved and get. moving on that modernization programme. So there is no cloud ov.er Grand Falls on the long term , it is just in a short-term cash flow problem for the Abitibi-Price Corporation.

As that cash flow problem gets solved'. and newsprint prices increase as they have done in the last six or eight weeks ,then certainly in Grand Falls you are going to have, because of the commitment of the corporation, a programme began s.o that mill modernization will take place in Grand Falls. Let me also say, 2636

..... ----·--.:~ ·' ---·......_··---· ·---------- April 13,1984 Tape No. 986 ah-1 MR.POWER: Mr. Speaker, at this time that our reduction of the sales tax on manufacturing equipment will assist Abitibi-Price in achieving their goals in Grand Falls. It is a very substantial incentive by this government in our budget process that we have removed the sales tax1 a12 per cent cost. If on $30 million you are talking about $3·~6 to $4 million worth of taxes1that is now an incentive that is place for Abitibi-Price to do their modernization in Grand Falls this year.

They have written the government, the Premier, the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) and myself congratulating us on that removal of sales tax on manufacturing equipmen~ saying to us that it is certainly a substantial benefit and will allow them to do their investment a little bit more quickly than they might have dane because of the cash flow problems. It removes cash requirements of $3 to $4 million on sales tax. So we are hoping, Mr.

Speaker, that sometime in the very near future the Abitibi-Price Corporation will be able to announce that they are beginning later this year a modernization for the Grand Falls mill. And if that modernization programme takes place there· will be no cloud over Grand Falls for many, many years to come.

Again it is the long-term objectives of this government to make sure that you have mills. operating in Stephenville, Grand Falls and Corner Brook and that,subject to a modernization programme and the co-operation of·this government, we have a commitment with Abitibi-Price that as soon as they possibly can they will do that modernization. So there certainly is no cloud over Grand Falls except in the very, very short-term,and in the long-term . 263 7

--;:-:-::- --:--- ··· -~ ·~ - ·-·-- April 13,1984 Tape No. 986 ah-2 MR. POWER: the future of the forest industry in Newfoundland is very, very bright. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, we had our little laugh at the . expense of the dogs, the beagles. Mr.Speaker, I do not know where the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) is today or where he was yesterday. l-1'~. S'1'F.NAR'1': He is attending the funeral of a close friend in his district. MR.CALLAN: Very good.

It is not actually important where the minister is anyway, but I wanted to draw to ·the attention of the House of Assembly that the school bus was taken off the Markland road this morning because ···the road is in such a deplorable condition. And it is not, Mr. Speaker, because of the soft conditions that we find dirt roads in this time of the year.

It is because,apparently 1 the road is not being maintained, you know, there are an awful lot, hundreds and hundreds of what is commonly referred to as'Dottie's potties/ potholes,all over the road • And I am wondering what kind of a handle the minister has on his department whereby these these soft roads cannot be maintain'ed. -- - - --- --- - I gre~., up on soft roads up until 1965-66 - -- .~m. PA'!'TEP~SOJ'T: Until the Tories got in. MR.CALLAN: No. Up until 1965-66• I think I was in Green's Harbour in 1965 1 and driving 2638

April 13,1984 Tape No. 986 ah-3 MR. CALLAN: up and down the T±inity Shore in 1965· ·and 1966 I remember there was one spot in Blaketown where I used to practica.lly go to the axle. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, I am well aware of when the roads were done in Bellevue and I am well aware of when the roads were done through Norman's Cove. As a matter of fa~t7I was in charge of the Municipal Government there and I believe I was President of -:the Lions Club at that same time·-yes, I ~qas - and I remember having conversations with the present member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr.

Reid)1who was the member, of course1for Trinity South at that-time. As a matter of fact1the paving crew threatened to pull out right in the middle of Norman's Cove.and I remember the present member :ear· 2639 ..

--- . ----~- ·,...- : ·-- - - -·~ ·- - " - -~~- ... ·--;;:..........;.~'-- April 13, 1984, Tape 987, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: _ ) Trinity- Bay de Verde(Mr. Reid), I remember talking to him on the phone, myself and the principal of the school, Roy Bennett, who is still there, who was formerly from Greens Harbour, and how we sent telegrams and so on. And, of course, the member asked us to do it. He said, You know, I cannot show phone calls to Premier Moores. If I go to Premier Moores now and say we have to get this finished, the Premier is going to say, Who is complaining? What proof do you have?

So we sent telegrams so that the member at the time would have some- thing concrete, something to show the Premier. So that decision was reversed and we got the pavement. It went just inside Chapel Arrn i1actually 1before it t,oras stopped, and then the following Spring from there to the Trans- Canada was finally done. Anyway, getting back to the Markland road, Mr. Speaker, I think it is deplorable.

If the road were soft and muddy and cars and trucks were getting stuck,as they were, for example, down on the Terra Nova road a couple of weeks ago, when the member parked some kind of a piece of equipment there for towing out cars that were stuck in the mud, if that were the situation I could understand it. But that is not the problem at all, the problem is regular maintenance. I just talked to a gentleman in Markland, he happens to be a Tory, but that does not matter, I talked to the man because that gentleman keeps a log. MR. NEARY: That is a very rare bird these days, a Tory. MR.

CALLAN: I was talking to a lady and I asked her ;vhen the grader was in there last and she said,'The grader has not been in here since that last big storm.• That was two weeks ago. So I said,'You cannot be serious. Are you sure? ' She said, 'Yes, I am sure the 261 .. 0

. . .... .. - - - - -- -• • I •• April 13, 1984, Tape 987, Page 2 -- apb MR. CALLAN: grader did not pass here, but I will tell you a gentleman to call.' So she gave me the gentleman's name and I called him. He is a good supporter of the P.C.Party and so on, and that is fine, but anyway the man told me he keeps a log. 'Now,'he said,'I cannot tell you that the grader was not outside, but I can tell you that the grader did not pass here since April 4.' MR. NEARY: 1982? MR. CALLAN: No, April 4 was the last time the grader was in there. And he gave me dates going back to March.

It was in here March 2, and March l2, and it was plowing snow on the 22nd, and it was plowing snow on the 27th. It was pushing back snow on the 29th, but actually grading the road, April 4 was the last time they saw it. Why I wonder, Mr. Speaker? I mean, what kind of a handle does the Minister of TransportationOMr. Dawe~ have on his department?

I know one thing, that the worst thing that could have happened to Wilf aishop, the local foreman there who was a good man, a good friend of mine, he always brings his trailer over our way in the Stunmer, he and the other foreman down the shore, both good friends of mine, but his complaint all the time is that he does not have the equipment, and that has been going on for years. And to add insult to injury, what happened last year? Someone in their wisdom decided that they were going to take the Whitbourne depot from beneath the Bay Roberts umbrella and put it under the Billy Brennan umbrella in Placentia.

I have said it bef~re in the House, Mr. Speaker, and it is a fact, that 2641

--~ --=~· · - April 13, 1984 Tape 988 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: since that happened the effectiveness of the Whitbourne Highway's Depot has gone down. And why it was put under Placentia I do not know. MR. NEARY: What about Old Perlicanj Is I that moved too? MR. CALLAN: It is going to be moved. MR. NEARY: It is probably moved already. MR. CALLAN: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I was driving into St. John's,about a month ago 1I suppose,and I met several brand new beautifully painted yel:low Highway's trucks. The minister is spending money on equipment, but where is it going? It is not going to the Whitbourne Depot.

I wonder where is it going? It must be going somewhere. Perhaps it is going to st. Geor.ge's. I do not know where it is going. MR. NEARY: Oh, there is a fair amount of work going on out there,I. would expect. MR. CALLAN: Where is it going? So I want to make a point on that, Mr. Speaker, this morning. I was going to talk about rural development a while ago and my time ran out, but I would like to take a few minutes now to talk about rural development associations.

We are all disappointed to see,of course,by the minister's statement earl.;ier this morning that the agreement with Ottawa is still no~ signed and apparently it is not that imminent. Hopefully perhaps in a couple of weeks - - - that rural development agreement will be signed. But, Mr. Speaker, what is the trouble? Wiy is ~t that the minister of --- that department and the minister in Ottawa, why is it that they .cannot agree? MR. NEARY: Each wants to hog the credit, boy. 2642

"----- ·- . -------- ·- -~--~---- -~--'-'- --- ---'- -- April 13, 1984 Tape 988 PK - 2 MR. CALLAN: Now that is the point I am going to make, Mr. Speaker. You see, I said here in the Legislature a week or more again that there are an awful lot of rural development associations that are top heavy with Tories, and that has been true. By the way,it has been true but it is becoming less true with each day that pasees,perhaps because these Tories are becoming Liberal, I do not know. I think there are lots of good reasons why they should,of course.

But 1 anyway 1I was talking to a gentleman on the far end of my district a couple of days ago,who tells me th~t the former President of the PC Executive in Bellevue,who was Eldred Goobie out in Queen's Cove, I mean he was the man who headed up the Rural Development Association down in that area of my district for years, but finally that man is gone and the two other Tories as well. In Norman's Cove, my hometown,for example, three members of the PC Executive for the district of Bellevue are also on -·­ the Rural Development Association, and that is what I mean by top heavy. MR. PATTERSON: that. MR.

CALLAN: There is nothing wrong with There is nothing wrong with it,but what has been wrong,and the reason that we do not have an agreement today ~s because what has been happening is that - and oefore I say that I can say this without any .fear of contradiction; perhaps the Minister of Rural, _Agricutural and Northern Development (Mr.

Goudie) is not aware of it J::ut it has been done in --- - -- - --- the past, because once people have reason to change their politics and they switch,then they tell a lot of things that was sort of top secret before there was a time when a lot of rural development associations around this Province were looked on 2643

------=-··;.c- =.;;;;:._ __ Apr il 13, 1984 Tape 988 PK - 3 MR. CALLAN: and treated as though they were PC executives. MR. SIMMS: They were all L:iberal.s in lt\Y t.ir!e. -- - - MR CJIIH!N. Tna"f: is right. That is a fact. h':- been told that....,. we ewe 2644

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 989 MJ - 1 MR. CALLAN: That is right. That is a fact. We have been told that 1 by the way 1 by former Tories who changed their politics for some reason or oCher, - ~ps it had to do with the teachers - MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The han. the member's time has elapsed. MR. CALLAN: My time has elapsed. Mr. Speaker, I guess I will not get ·around to talking about the Rural D.evelopment Associations in any detail. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: MR. CALLAN: MR.. RIDEOUT : The han. the member for Baie Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Where are all the members? You bored them .1 boy 1 and they left. In the Concurrence Debate here on the Resource Estimates this · •morliling, I thought it might be an opportune time to say a word or two about the mining operation in Baie Verte. Of course,over the last two years that operation has proven to be one of the few success stories in the Province and it has worked continuous~y now - well,it will be two years in September, actually, sind:e •the mine reopened - and it has been continuously working and continuously building and improving on the number of people who are employed there.

Up until this present moment - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR . NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, could you count the House? There has not been quorum here for the last fifteen or twenty minutes. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. 2645

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 989 MJ - 2 QUORUM C'A L L MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : There is a quorum present, we · can continue. The han. the member for Baie ~erte - t~ite Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, ~~. Speaker. As I was saying before the quorum call,that ope~ation has continued to operate very successfully over the last two years,until today there are 351 people working at that operation in.Baie Verte where two years ago there were . ten or twelve people motht Jballing the operation.

So I am very proud and very pleased at the role that this government played, and ·:·bhe federal government I give full marks where marks are necessary - in reviving that operation and thereby reviving,to a large degree 1 the economy of the Baie Verte Peninsula. Now we have known for several months, and the workers who work at the operation have known for several months that that operation is not quite out of the woods yet. It is not very easy, Mr.

Speaker, to break into the international market trying to sell a product like asbestos,particular when the product you were producing was heretofore only sold to two customers. The present operators have done a fantastic job, Mr. Speaker, in marketing the Baie Verte product, such a fantastic job that to this present point in time they are now marketing that product with fifty customers in thirty different countries. of the world.

So they have diversified their marketing base, they have been very successful in diversifing their marketing base but 1like I said 1 I know, the workers know, the community 1knows that there is going to continue to be ups and downs in that kind of industry for quite some time to come. As a matter o:f fact 1it was only yesterday that the 26 !_. 6

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 989 MJ- 3 MR. RIDEOUT: company decided they will take a temporary closedown for a minimum of three weeks and a maximum of four. And the miracles that that company has been able to perform, Mr. Speaker, are \'Torth talking about. Th~y gave notice in November that they may have to take a temporary closedown, they were able to find new orders and therefore the closedown was averted, They gave notice in January that they may have to take a temporary c'losedown, again they were successful in building up more orders and the temporary shutdown was averted.

They gave notice again in March that they were building up high inventories and that they again were looking at the possibility of taking a temporary closedown. That .·.was basically because of shipping problems but they were able to arrange to ship MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (RUssell) : A quorum call, Mr. Speaker. Call in the members. QUORUM c.;A L L MR. SPEAKER: White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: the third time There is a quorum present. The hon.' the member for Baie Verte - I suppose, Mr. Speaker, 2647

·-·-·-------- April 13, 1984 Tape No. 990 NM - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: will be lucky. Anyway, as I was saying, they gave notice in March that they may have to take a temporary close­ down,and again they were able to fool around with their shipping schedule,,.., they were able to arrange their shtppi.ng ;schedule such that the temporary closedown -- in March was once again avoided. This time, however, they gave notice yesterday, that they will have to take a three week closedown, starting next Thursday. ----- -- -- And the reason for that, Mr.

Speaker - and this is why I wanted to speak this morning,because it has now been made public. I would not speak about it yesterday because the union and so on had not been informed the reason for that, Mr. Speaker, is not markets,. They have done a fanatastic job in marketing the fibre and they have as many orders as they will be able to produce for running flat out for the rest of the year. They will be able to sell it.

The problem is that one of their big markets, well, their biggest market is in India, and during the past several weeks there have been some labour problems in stevedoring in some of the ports in India; consequently,they have not been able to get any shipments into that country for the last three or four weeks. And they are not certain. Their best information tells them that it may be three or four or five or six more weeks before the labour difficulties are sorted out in that country and before they will be able to continue shipping fibre into India.

So, therefore, with that kind of a situation in India, the fibre inventory in Baieverte was building up very high. There is something like 8,000 or 10,000 tons of 2648

·-- • L•-- ·------ .. _ ·- April 13, 1984 Tape No. 990 NM - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: fibre now in inventory so they could not continue to operate and build up that kind of inventory without being able to get shipments out and thereby get money in. So they have taken the decision to temporarily cease milling for the next three weeks as a minimum, and four weeks as a maximum, and therefore 243 people,I believe it is, will be given temporary lay off notices. MR. NEARY: They will not be producing any more asbestos? MR. RIDEOUT: They will not be milling any fibre.

On the other hand 1 they are going to continue stripping in the pit. There will still -- - - be 100 or 150 people working in the pit,stripping, That is very important because one of the biggest problems, Mr. ~peaker, with that operation is a pit problem that was created several years ago when the previous operators, rightly or wrongly 1 made some decisions in the pit that came back to haunt them before they closed down, and are_still haunting the new operator. But they will be continuing to strip in the pit. MR. NEARY: Did it result · in flooding or what? MR. RIDEOUT: No.

The experts tell us that it was just a poor pit plan. You know,they left a big saddle of waste in the middle knowing that the mother lode was · unger that waste. So over the fifteen or twenty year period they were not chipping away at the saddle such that they got themselves dug into a hole. And now they have to move all this big conglomerate of waste in order to get at it. And that is how come Advocate Mines got in trouble. That is how come Johns Manville got in trouble and walked away from it. 2649

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 990 NM - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: This operator, Mr.

Speaker, the new operator, Baie Verte Mines,. owned by Trans­ Pacific Asbestos, have done a - well the words are impossible to say about the success and the work they have done in getting that pit put back into shape, Now, with this temporary closedown of milling for a - - -- three or -·four week period, of course, it is going to give them another opportunity to be able to continue mining waste on a three shift a day basis right around the clock, seven days a week, so they will be able to catch up again now,hopefully,and get some more waste moved so that when they need to start milling fibre again in three weeks or four weeks time then they will be ahead of themselves in the waste.

So I suppose it might be a blessing in -disguise for the overall future of the mine. Nobody wants to see a closedown no matter whether it is temporary, two or three or four weeks, nobody wants to see that, but it is a kind of a blessing in disguise in a way in that it will enable them to continue their waste rock removal and therefore be able to catch up and have more ore exposed when they need to get back milling in three or four weeks time. So the reason for it, Mr.

Speaker, is not any negligence on the part of the company, not that they are in any trouble - I want that to be clearly understood, especially as far as the public goes - the _reason is that there are labour difficulties in their major marketing regime,in India, and they cannot get any •shipments into India 2650

April 13, 19.84 Tape No. 991 SD - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: ---·---------- on a continuous basis over the next three or four or five or six weeks. So in order to avoid high inventory build-ups, they have had to take a temporary closedown; workers have been given notice according to their collective agreement, and I understand that the closedown will start to take effect next Thursday for a three week period and perhaps even a four week period. MR. NEARY: How many will be laid off? MR.

RIDEOUT : I have already been through that, 243 will be temporarily laid off; the pit operations will continue so there will be 100 . or 150 employees· or so remain. But what I want to say in closing,before my time runs out, Mr. Speaker, is that out of all the economic gloom and doom we have seen not only in this Province but across the whole industrial world, there has been quietly happening in our ~dst a major miracle.

Because that place in Baie Verte was doomed. ~:TO years ago it was gone, it was flat, there was · nobody there only ten or twelve security people,and through the efforts of this government and the federal government we were successful in finding another operator. And that operator has done wonders, that operator has done marvelous wonders in returning economic stability to the Baie Verte Peninsula. sir, I see you looking at me which, I suppose, indicates that my time is up. Thank. you. MR. . SPEAI<ER ·rnusselll : The han, member for Torngat Mountains. MR \ WARREN: Mr. Speaker, .

I have a f:ew words to say, I' suppose, on the Resource Committee, in particular as it pertains to the federal government ''s stand on the salmon season for this year. I believe that my colleague, the member for Fogo CMr. Tulkt, and the han. Minister of 2651

;..':":'"":""!"' ~ --...... =- ~ - ~__.:_ .. _ _:; ~ - ~--- ·---- ·- April 13, 19.84 Tape No. 991 SD - 2 "MR. WARREN: Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) - -- r just saw- a copy of a Telex from the Fishermen •s -r:_nio _IJ. condemning the stand taken ~Y Mr. De Ba~e in curtailing -· ---- ---- --- the salmon fishery in this Province •. ----- ·------- I warit to say one thing, Mr. Speaker, in this regard and that is r believe the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane) has one purpose in mind and one purpose only and that is to save the salmon fishery for sports fishermen in the Maritime Provinces.

That is the only alternatrve, the salmon fishery:is for s~orts anglers. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. ~ Bane.) is more concerned about the people wno go salmon fishing for :fun than. · about the people who have to depend on the salmon fishery for ------- ---·- --- · a living. And _r believe up until last week when the hon. member --- -~----- -· ------- - - for Fogo (Mr. Tulkl shamed the Minister of Fi~heries into getting a Telex off to the federal minister~ that the .. - . - --·- -- --· Provincial 2652

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 992 ah-1 MR. WARREN: Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) was agreeing, with the federal minister. MR. DINN: Why are you saying something you know is not true? MR. WARREN: That is true, it is a fact. The Minister of Fisheries had no intention of sending a telex to Mr. De Bane. Because he has said time and time again in this House that he and Mr. De Bane were toe to toe.and here is an example. Only for the concern expressed by this side of the House through the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk), our fisheries critic, Mr. De Bane would be still going ahead with his - MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward) : of the Opposition. Lies, lies! A point of or~er, Mr. Speaker. A point of order. The hon. Leader MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if Your Honour caught the words of the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) who shouted, l·ies, lies, across the House, who said it was lie. Mr. Speaker, I believe these words are unparliamentary. The han. gentleman by now should have learned his lesson. He has had a reprimand now, I would say, for the past two weeks by the Chair about using unparliamentary language, trying to take this House on his back. And I believe, Mr.

Speaker, it soon will be time to name the hon. gentleman, by the way. He is not to continue to shout across the House, lies, Mr. Speaker, that is unparliamentary. MR. ANDREWS: To that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order the han. the Minister of the Environment. MR. AND RE WS : Mr. Speaker, I did not 2653

~--~;.._-=., ~- , - --- , - • April 13,1984 Tape No. 992 ah-2 MR. ANDREWS : hear what the member for St. John's North (Mr.Carter) did say but what the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.Warren)did say. was not quite correct. As a matter of fact,it was false. · MR. WINDSOR: It was not correct at all. MR .ANDREWS: The member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) did not shame the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) into sending a telex to Mr. De Bane. MR.NEARY: He did. MR.ANDREWS: The telex had already been sent when it was brought up in the House. - MR. WARREN: That is not true. Not true! MR.

ANDREWS : And it was tabled the next day with the date on it. MR. WARREN: Not true! Not true! MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order the hon. member for St. John's North. MR.CARTER: Mr. · speaker, I quote Beauchesne, page 108. The suggestion that so and so has 'deliberately mis-stated the trut~, that is unparliamentary, calling a person a'liar'or suggesting that someone ~eliberately misled the House, or 'wilfuLly misled' ~e House or is rmisleading the public~ And I did not call the hon. gentleman a liar.

I called his statement incorrect and I said it was a lie, what the hon. gentleman was saying was a lie, and my colleague has just gotten up to confirm it. You know 1 if freedom of speech is not allowed in this House, if hon. members opposite do get up and mislead this House - now if it is deliberately 2654

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 992 ah-3 MR. CARTER: misleading the House I cannot suggest or imply motives. And that is the basis for Beauchesne's arguments, that one may not .imply motives but if an incorrect statement is given to this House it is not only permissible for a member to get up, but I would suggest it is also his duty. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please: To that point of order I also draw the hon. member's attention to page 107 in Beauchesne, and page 108, which gives thirty-nine different examples of the debates in the federal House of Commons where the word 'lie' has been ruled unparliamentary.

And I did not hear the hon. member say it, but he suggested when he made his point of order that he did say it and I would suggest that it is an unparliamentary term and I would ask the han. member if he would withdraw the word 'lie'. MR. CARTER: Two points, Mr. Speaker, so that the record will read straight. I did say the han. gentleman told a lie and, as your suggest, I would withdraw it. First of all, I s~d like to explain that although it probably was nat recorded- MR. NEARY: Withdraw it! MR. CARTER: SOME BON. MEMBERS: Is that in order, Mr. Speaker? I am trying to clarify it. Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. member is withdrawing his comment and another point of order can be raised immediately after. MR. NEARY: or he does not. MR. SPEAKER: MR. CARTER: He either withdraws it, Mr. Speaker, The han. member for St.John's North. I would not want it suggested that there was some doubt as to whether I had said something. I am affirming 2655

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 993 MJ- l MR. CARTER: that I did say it and I am withdrawing it, and r· ·am withdrawing it as best I can. But I would not like the impression to be left that I may not have said it, I did say it and I am sorry I said it and I am withdrawing it. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. member has withdrawn the word 'lie' «hich he admitted he said. The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. ~ .peaker, I do not care if the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) says it is a lie or not, it is a fact.

If that side over there could only see the time of receival, the time the two telegrams were received in Ottawa bv the minister, . I believe it ~qould shm'l that the tirne of departure of the minister's telegram was much !ater than the minister had indicated. Now, Mr. Speaker, I think we should throw the telegram on the table- of the House. MR. ANDRID'I'S : Mr. Speaker, a_point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: I have a copy of the telegram here which was tabled in the House, April 9, 1984. April 9, 1984 was on a Monday when the issue was raised in the House.

This is first day of the working week. It was sent Monday morning. Mr. Speaker, that statement has to be corrected ·, it is an incorrect statement. MR. MORGAN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr . Speaker, I find that absolutely unbelievable. 2656

. -·- ----- ---- -'--- -- April 13, 1984 Tape No. 993 MJ - 2 MR. MORGAN: ,,,here I am leavirHJ to go now in a few minutes down · to the Burin Peninsul~ to have a loo k at the fisheries down there. ~he hon. member is trying -- --- .. -- ··- - to twist things around · to make believe that all is not right with what we .··are doing in the salmon fishery in the Province. The fact ~~mains it was confirmed this.morning, fdr example,on the open line show,and it can be confirmed by any officials who were involved on the A.tlantic Salmon Advisory Board of which my assistant de~uty is a member, it can be confirmed by Mr.

McGrath, the former Minister of Fisheries and present member of parliament, and Mr. De Bane's officials 1 that we ha~ discussed the Atlantic Salmon Fishery weeks and weeks and weeks ago. They can twist it around, Mr. Speaker, to make believe there was an agreement, there was no agreement. MR. BARRY: Is this a point of order, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAI<ER (Aylward) : Order,please! Yes, ·the hon. the minister is speaking on a point of order. The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: The Telex itself was sent before it was ever brought to the House of Assembly by the Opposition, it was sent - MR.

WARREN: That is not true. Not true. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, thev are trving to get themselves out of the real bad situation find themselves in. I mean 1 I just had a call from Mr. De Bane to confirm the meeting on Sunday. We are meeting on Sunday. I met with the union, we have an agreement, the union and myself, as to our nosition on the Atlantic Salmon and the position that we have taken ~.,as relaved to ·~r. De Bane last ,._-eek. 2657

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 993 MJ - 3 MR. NEARY: This is completely out of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr . Soeaker, I C!lll speaking to a point of order raised when the mem.l:ler for 'I.'orngat l-!ountains (~r. - ·- ···-- - ··- Warren)~ using his own nasty littl ·e tactics to try to embarrass the Minister of Fisheries who he thought was not around, was not near the House, was on his '"av to 2658 ,. •· #·

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 994 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: the Burin Peninsula1by trying to tell lies and untruths about the situation. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER {_Aylward): Order, please! MR. MORGAN: And I am saying, Mr. Speaker, on this point of order that th.e han. gentleman has no right to stand in the House and make misrepresentation about any other han. member. And that is the issue. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: That is not true •. Order, please!. To that point of order raised by the han. Minister of the Environment (Mr. Andrews) I rule that there is a difference of opinion. Also, ~"hen the hon.

Minister of Fisheries (J1r. Morgan) was making his point in this point of order he indicated that the han. member for Torngat Mountains CMr. Warren) was trying to tell lies and I would ask him if he would withdraw that statement. It is an unparliamentary statement. MR.. MORGAN: I withdraw the term 'lies' ,. Mr. Speaker, it being unparliamentary, but I have to say again he is trying to make it look like I am a liar. MR. NEARY: On a noint of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A ooint of order, the han. Mr.

Speaker, I do not believe I have to draw, to Your Honour's attention tha.t the hbn. gentleman did not withdraw unequivocally as he was ordered to do by the Chair. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman should be ordered to withdraw without attaching any provisions, any strings to it, or name the han. gentleman. Mr. Speaker, they have a new technique over there now, they are being taught a bad lesson by the member for St. John •·s North-CHr. Carter), get up and call a member a liar and then Your Honour will ask him to 2659

April 13, 1984 Tape No. 994 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: withdraw and he gets up and withdraws. Now, is that the way the House is going to continue in the future, Mr. Speaker? The hon. Minister of Fisheries (_Mr. Morgan} should withdraw,· ._ period. MR. MORGAN: To that point of; order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER· (Aylward} : To that point of order, the hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Hr. Speaker, I did withdraw out I say again the hon. gentleman in the Opposition is trying to make me look like a liar. That is what I said and I maintain that pos·ition. He is trying to make me look like a liar.

Ke called the Minister of Fisheries· (Mr. De Bane)_ in Ottawa a liar irr this House, who was not here to defend himself, he is in the Kous·e of Commons :i,.n Ottawa. He stood in this House and called Mr. De Bane a liar and now he is trying to make me look like a liar. And I stand by my statement, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order it is quite clear that the han •. Minister of Fisheries (.Mr. Morgan)_ withdrew- the statement that the hon. member for Torngat Mountains CMr. Warreni was lying or attempting to lie or lying at the. time. That is withdrawn. Mountains-'' time has· elapsed.

SOME' HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The hon. member for Torngat Hear, hear! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I will tell you that these are very dangerous precedents' that are being created in this House. The new technique now- is to get up, say the member in the Opposition is a liar and then Your Konour orders a withdrawal and then get up and withdraw and say 'Yes, but he is trying to make me look like a liar'. He did not call 2660

April 13, 19.84 Tape No. 9.94 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: me a liar but he is trying to maRe me look lfk e a liar. MR. WARREN : MR. NEARY: If I did that it .ts okay. Mr. Speaker, let me, first of all, convey a little bit of bad news, sad news, to the Flouse . I do not know if my hon. gentlemen there opposite were familiar with Mr, Smallwood' 's pri'vate secretary,who was hls personal assistant when he was Premier. Mrs . Muriel Templeman, if. hon. gentlemen will recall, was the personal assistant and private secretary to former Premier Smallwood from 1949 until 19.72. On April lQ , ~tt . Speaker, Mrs .

Templeman passed away and I am sure that hen. gentlemen would like to record therr condolences to the bereaved family . Now , Mr . Speaker, the hen . Min.i:ster of F:i:sheries (.Mr. Morgan l is within the precincts of the Kouse somewhere - MR, OTTENHE'IMER: ' I wonder if the hen. gentleman would grant me leave for jus:t a moment. MR. . NE1tRY: Ye s, sure. 2661

April 13, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. OTTENHEIMER: Tape 995 PK - l The hon. Minister of Justice . Mr. Spea.ker, · I" would like to associate the hon. members of this side with the expression of condolence expressed by the Leader. of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). Mrs. Templeman certainly spent a great number of years in public service and would. have been known to some hon. members on this side, certainly those who were in the I,egislature during tha .t period, and I know that they would wish to be associated with the expression of sympathy expressed by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I appreciate the hon. minister's sentiments, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon . Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) before he leaves the ninth floor should tell us about or give us an up-date - MR. WARREN: He is gone. MR. NEARY: to scoot out of the House. MR. WARREN: Is he gone? He could not wait (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Well, there is no point in asking the question. I want to find out about the chief - MR. ANDREWS: He has gone to meet 600 people on the Burin Peninsula. MR. NEARY: Yes. Mr. Speaker, he might get six. He might.

Four hundred and twenty-five last night registe