Manitoba Hansard — 18 December 1989 (Sitting 93A, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-93a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, December 18, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. * (13 35) PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDI NGS ORAL QUES TION PERIOD Robert H. Smith School Child Care Spaces Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on Thursday of last we ek, in response to a question from the Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek (M rs. Yeo), the Mi nister of Education (M r. Derkach) stated that the re had been no change in his department's polic y and the provision of child care spaces in schools. The designed work for the Robert H.

Smith School is now already well under way and to date no decision has been made as to whethe r funds wi ll be avail able to build the ch ild care; this, despit e req uests from Winnip eg School Division No. 1 to tha t effect, and a polic y wh ich has been in place since March of 19 86. The day care has been trying in vain to get answers from the Minister of Education (M r. Derkach) and the Mi nister of Family Services (M rs. Oleson). My questio n is to the Minister of Educatio n. On Thursday he indic ated the re was no change in school policy and yet, Mr.

Speaker, in a lette r to the Munroe Day Nursery, the Mi nister of Family Servic es (M rs. Ol eson) states tha t the chil d care polic y in schools is currently under review by both her department and the Mi nistry of Education. Who are we to belie ve, the Minister who says there is no change and it is business as usual, or the Minister of Family Servic es? .,, Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I think the Leader of the Liberal Party (M rs.

Carstairs) just answered her own question because she indic ated in her que stion that the polic y is under review, but that does not mean tha t eithe r department is operati ng under a new poli cy. The policy has not changed to date. It is only natural tha t from time to ti me departments would want to review poli cy in order to see whethe r in fact we are meeting the needs of Ma nitobans as they should be, and there is nothi ng wrong with reviewing poli cy, but the polic y as stated ha s not changed to date. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr.

Speaker, if the polic y has not changed to date, wi ll the Minister tell the Ho use today and also the parents involved in the child care, why the monie s have not been set for the Robert H. Smith Child Care spaces as part of the capital budget for tha t school? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker; it is normal before any space ha s been approved for day care tha t the role of Family 3871 Servic es is such tha t the y wi ll confirm as to the need tha t exists in that pa rticula r area, or tha t particula r school, and then the Publ ic Schools Fi nance wi ll evaluate the program and the buil ding project to see whethe r in fact a day care space should be constructed. Presently, Mr. Speaker, that is the process tha t we are follo wing. I will take the specific s of this question under notice, and I wi ll come back to the Membe r with regard to Robert H. Smith.

Education Facilities Child Care spaces Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Sp eake r, the agre ement be tween the school divisio ns and the Ministry of Educatio n set in March of 19 86 clearly states tha t if it is the wish of a school division for child care spaces to be buil t with the school construction, tha t is what wi ll occur. Why is the Mi nister rejecting the policy tha t has been in effect since March of 19 86? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): There is nothing being rejected at all. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, the policy does not simply state tha t if a school wants to build a day care centre, then we just open up the cheque book and let them go ahead. I mean, tha t may be the way the Liberals would li ke to have it, but there are criteria tha t have to be follo wed, and in each and every case tho se criteria are follo wed. Mrs. Carstairs: Can the Mi nister of Education tell us if it is the policy of his department that when new schools are to be constructed, chil d care spaces are to be att ached at th at ti me because tha t is the most economic al way of buil ding child care spaces in the province? Mr.

Derkach: Mr. Speaker, tha t is not necessarily the case. Before that kind of a decision is made, the re has to be an assessment made of the request to see whethe r or not the re are faciliti es in tha t communit y tha t in fact may meet the needs of the parents who have chil dren who require day care. Mr. Speaker, this is not simpl y a case of when a school is buil t tha t we simpl y say automatic ally the re wi ll be a day care centre buil t with tha t school .

That is not the polic y and I would suggest tha t the Leader of the Li beral Party perh aps re ad the pol i cy to understand tha t the re is an assessment tha t needs to be conducted before tha t decision is made. * (1 340) Robert H. Smith School Child Care Spaces Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, Winnipeg School Division No. 1 has had

Monday, December 18, 1989 a number of new schools built in the last few years. Every single one of th ose schools has had child care spaces att ached to it. Why is Robert H. Smith bei ng singled out for not having child care spaces attached to it? Hon . Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Robert H. Smith is not being singled out as a school which has been denied child care facil ities.

As I indicated to the Leader of the Li beral Party a moment ago, in each and every case ther e is an assess ment done of the needs that particu lar community has put forth and whe ther or not day care facil itie s exist where the y me et the needs of the community. Mr. Speaker, I indicated also tha t I would take the specifics of this question as notice, and I wi ll inquire with staff as to what the situation is with Robert H. Smith, and I will come back to the Leader with tha t information. Mrs . Carslairs: Mr. Speaker, the drawings are on the drawing board for this sch ool.

They will be confirmed before the end of this year. We are now reaching a deadline point of some two we eks. Will the Minister assure this Ho use tha t the chi ld care spaces tha t have been granted to every other school in Winnipeg No. 1 wi ll be given to this particular school? Mr. Derkach: Ne ither I nor the Go vernment nor the Public Schools Finance will simply hand over a blank cheque for it to be fil led out by any school division in this province. Mr.

Speaker, wha t we will do is do a proper assessment of the needs in tha t particular community and whe ther or not a day care facility should be built along with tha t new construction. Mr. Speaker, Robert H. Smith will not be singled out differe ntly from any other school division in this province. Out-Migration Statistics Government Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opp osition ): We wou ld urge the Go vernment to continue on the leadership position tha t they inherited in terms of quality child care and using our public school system for public non-profit child care in our province. Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Prem ie r. The figures are out again today on out-migration. In 19 89, 29,000 people have left the Province of Ma nitoba, and only 19 ,000 have joined the province in terms of its population for a decrease, an out-migration of 10, 000 people as of this morning. Mr.

Speaker, we ha ve been raising this continually in the Cham ber for the last year and a half, and I wou ld ask the Premier whether or not he now admits there is a real, legitima te problem in terms of out-migration and its impact on our popula tion, and does he have a strategy to deal with th is real problem or is he going to continue to not admit tha t th ere is a problem in this province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I want to begin by just congratulating, if I may, the Mem ber for Concordia (Mr . Doer) on being singled out and recognized for a national award by the Cha telaine Ma gazine.

I know tha t the other Mem bers, certainly the male Mem bers of this Legislature, are probably as envious as I am of the award tha t he has been granted by Cha telaine. I certainly congratula te him on tha t recognition.- (interject ion)- Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I am being absolutely sincere in this, and I certainly do not want to-o ther than recognize as I say with envy the award tha t has been announced for the Mem ber for Concordia.

Gett ing to the substance of his que stion, I remind the Mem ber for Concordia th at in 26 of the past 28 years, the Province of Manitoba has experienced a net out-m igration of population. Tha t is a ch aracteristic tha t probably has something to do with the balanced make-up of the economy of our province, the fact tha t we neit her go very much up or very much down in terms of growth, the fact that our growt h is distributed amongst many sectors and so we rarely have the boom and bust cyc les. Net out -mig ration has been ch aracteristic as I say with 26 of the past 28 years of our province. Mr.

Doer: I thank the Premier (Mr. Filmon) for hi s comments. If Mike Duffy can win tha t award, I guess anybody can. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Doer: I understand Don Orchard was runner up. * (1 345) Manitoba Totals Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): This is a very serious matter, Mr. Speaker. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) mentioned selectively the quotes on out migration.

I wou ld ask the Premier, wou ld the Premier acknowledge that Manitoba now has a hi gher out migration rate than Newfou ndland; the Province of Manitoba is second only in the amount of people we are losing per thousand per capita than Saskatchew an, another Conservative province? Would the Premier now acknowledge we ha ve a serious problem in our population? We used to average 10, 000 increased population through birth, immigration, out-migration, in-migration, per year through the'80s.

Si nce the Conservatives have been in office the population has gone from 1, 084 ,900 to 1, 085,300 , a growth of only 400 in our popula tion in a year and a half- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I think tha t the Mem ber should recognize a couple of things. He says tha t I have 3872

Monday, December 18, 1989 used selectiv e statistics. Mr. Speaker, 26 of the past 28 years, tha t is not being selective. I did not choose the two yea rs tha t were the except ion to the rule. I said 26 of the past 28 years there was net out-migration. He refers to the fact that we have had indeed a small growt h in total population in the past year and a half. He refers to part of the input being birth rate. I remind him that in all of the developed world, birth rates are declining. Tha t is a part of the calculation of tha t figure. The fact of the matter is tha t is part of the characteristic of Ma nitoba.

He also makes a very significant comparison saying tha t only Saskatche wan is having a greater problem. I remind him that we are very much tied in to the farm eco nomy here in Manitoba and tha t some of the same things tha t are happening to the economy and to the out-m igration away from the farms that is happ ening in Saskatchewan is happening in Ma nitoba. What I remind him of is tha t we are doing things that look to the future. Our growt h as a province, our eco nomic growth, is expected to be the second highe st of any province in the country this year.

Ne xt year, according to the Conference Board, we will still be above the national average in growth. Those are because of our polic ies, reducing income taxes in this province, reducing the deficit in this province, gett ing away from the sho rt- term make -wo r k mental ity th at his Gov ernment characterized for six and a half years. Economic Growth Government Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Oppo sition): Mr. Speaker, why does the Premier (M r. Filmon) not start te lling Manitobans the truth? You have a serious problem in this province.

The re are 10 ,000 less full time jobs now than when you took office-f ul l-time not part-time, full-time jobs. This Party has an economic policy tha t has part-time people at MacOonalds instead of full- time people in this province. My question to the Premier is this: does he not admit that there is a serious economic probl em in this province and wi ll he not meet with his Treasury Bench and come up with an eco nomic strategy for the 19 90s, instead of Manitoba being nine out of 10 in Canada for out migration numbers? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I will repeat so tha t the Mem ber knows the facts, 26 of the past 28 years, the re has been net out-migration in the Province of Manitoba. We are working on the kinds of thi ngs tha t this -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. Mr. Filmon: -the kinds of economic polic ies that this province must have because as a result of six and a half years of NOP Go vernment, the short-term make work jobs did not work.

They were not here at the end of six and a half years of priming the pump, of putting it into the Jobs Fund, of putting it into cutting grass and putting up green and white signs, those jobs did 3873 not last, Mr. Speaker. Tha t is the problem tha t we have to deal with so we are att racting the long- te rm investment growth in this province.

Real investment increasing in excess of 14 percent, invest ment in the industrial secto r to do with manufacturing increasing by more than 10 0 percent, taxes going down, deficit going down and economic growth being amongst the highest in the country, tha t is what we are working on because of our polic ies. * (1 350) Mr. Doer: There is a time for the rh etoric and there is time for the bottom line and the bottom line is, Mr. Spea ker, you have 10 ,000 fewer people working on full time jobs in Manitoba than when you took office. You are failing.

There are only 400 more people in Ma nitoba in a year and a half, when the re used to be 10 ,000 extra people a year. You are failing. I would ask the Premier to admit he is failing and develop an economic strategy for this province. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. The Honourable First Minister. Mr. Filmon: There is indeed a time for rh etoric and a time for real answers, and the rh etoric comes every day from that Mem ber for Concordia, Mr. Speaker.

The real answers come from the things th at are in our budget, reduced taxes, reduced deficit, increased growth, expected to be alm ost 6 percent according to the Conference Board, the second highest of any province in this country. No more the short-ter m make work jobs of the NOP, no more the white wine socialist philo sophy tha t he said was whit e wine soci alis t philo sophy when he was president of MGE A. He denounced the phi losoph ies and the actions of the NOP that now he says resulted in something better. The public of Ma nitoba know tha t is why the y got rid of him as a Go vernment.

Out- Migration Statistics Federal Support Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I would like to correct the Premier if I could, and I do have a question for him. In fact , net out-migration in this province is at the hi ghest level it has been in 10 years, and it has only been that way five of the last 10 and two of them have been under this Government's administration. Not only tha t, it is accelerating. At this time last year 5,917 people had left this province and this time this year 6,600, an increase of 719 . It will be higher than 10 ,000 at the end of this year.

We have had two recent meetings with the federal Government. One, the First Minister -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Mem ber has a question. Mr. Alcock: Will the Premier tell us what assurances he has had from Ottawa? Wha t new investment Ottawa

Monday, December 18, 1989 is prepared to make in this province to help offset this trend? Mr. Speaker: The Ho nourable First Min iste r. (i nterjection)- Order. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, just as when he phoned New Brunswick and just as when his Leader phoned Newf oundland, the Mem ber for Osborne brings false information to this Legislature. This province has suffered net out-migration in 26 of the past 28 years. He is wrong and he is dead wrong as he usually is. ***** Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. The Honourable Mem ber for Osborne, on a point of order. Mr.

Alcock: I have a statistics state ment tha t shows it and it is about time you got some decent research. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for Osborne did not have a point of order. The Honourable First Minister. ***** Mr. Filmon: For the past 28 years, net out-migration -(i nterjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. The Honourable First Minister. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the Mem ber for Osborne knows full well tha t this province is projected to ha ve the second highe st growth rate of any province in the country this year and an ab ove average growth rate next year.

The Membe r knows full well that we ha ve a comm itment of investments by Repap of $1 billion dollars over the next th ree years in this province. We have a commitment of $5.5 billion on Conawapa on a transmission line. Those are the biggest projects in the hi story of this province, Mr. Speaker. Tha t is part and parcel of the rosy future tha t people see in this province which we would never get under a Liberal Go vernment. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, the policies of this Premier are driving people out of this province-6, 000 people to date in this year. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker: Order, ple ase; order, ple ase. The Ho nourable Mem ber for Osborne, kindly put your question now, ple ase. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, we have suffered significant lo sses under this federal Go vernment. I am asking the Premier, what offsett ing investment has Ottawa offered to assist us at this time when we are now ninth out of 10 in this country? * (1 355) Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, I repeat for the Mem ber for Osborne, the agreement tha t we signed with Ontario last week, an agreement that we are not sure the Liberal Party supports- they are trying to fight it in thei r own ways-23 ,000 person years of emplo yment on the construction at Conawapa, tha t is real investment, $5.5 billio n over a space of 10 years, the largest commitment of a project in the hi story of this province. Our manufacturing capital investment is predicted to increase at 104.6 percent this year over last year. Our average weekly earnings, the best increase among all provinces in the country, at 5.5 perc ent.

Our manufacturing ship ments have increased at the second highest level of any province in the country this year. All of these things are because of the positive polic ies contained within our budget to lower taxes, to lower the deficit, a budget tha t the Liberals voted against, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, our position in this country has been slipping every month th at this Go vernment has been in power. Forest Fires Federal Compensation Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): I have a simple question to the Premier. The fires this summer cost us an awful lot of money.

Now the federal Government is responsible for any fires tha t have begun on federal land. How much money have they offered to put towards the fires? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, as the Mem ber may know, it takes a good deal of time to accumula te the costs of such an event -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease. The Honourable the First Minister. Mr. Filmon: It takes a good deal of time to put togethe r . the facts and the figures on all of the costs that we re incurred during those immense forest fires. It was the greatest natural disaster, civil disaster, in our province's hi story, Mr.

Speaker. As I indicated publi cly, the costs are somewhe re in the range of $70 mill io n to $75 million. Some of tho se costs were incurred on Indian lands. Some of those costs involved the transference of our Native people. Some 23 ,000 people were moved out of thei r homes, most of them Nati ve population. In every case we have to identify and quantify the exact cost, because when you are asking someone to pay a bill you do not work on est imates, you do not work on assumptions. We just put togethe r all the final figures during the month of November.

Those were transmitted to Ottawa, and we have asked Ottawa to pay a generous portion of the costs we had in Manitoba. We are currently in discussion- An Honourable Member: How much? Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase; order, pl ease. 3874

Monday, December 18 , 1989 Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I have indic ated tha t the costs are between $70 million and $75 million. An Honourable Member: Is tha t what you asked for? Mr. Filmon: We have asked for Ottawa to pay a generous portion of tha t share, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase; order, ple ase. Hazardous Goods Storage Information Systems Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my que stion is for the Minister responsib le for Workplace Safety and Health (Mr s. Ham mond). Mr.

Speaker, I was truly amused by the response of this Mi nister to the . proposal by th is side of the Ho use tha t lock boxes be mandated for emplo yers in th is province storing hazardous chem ic als. The Mi nister called this proposal, wh ic h has been supported by emplo yers and recognized experts in the field, "prematu re." This from the Mi nister who after six months has still not come forward with a report on the solvent explosion in St. Bonif ace, and after th ree months still has not put standards for carcinogens in the workplace back to where the y belong, at the lowest detectable level. Mr.

Speaker, thank heavens someone is putting forward recommendatio ns. Is the Mi nister not in favour of ensuring that all emergency response teams around th is province, not just in Winnip eg where comput erized access is in pla ce, ha ve the appropriate informatio n imme diately upon arrival at a scene thr ough the use of lock boxes? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Min ister of Labour responsible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, this is sue is being dealt with and is going to be dealt with by the Workplace Safety and He alth Advisory Commit tee. I believe that the Mem ber is premature with hi s suggestion.

Surely we would want experts to be looking at th is to give us advice. Whi le we we lcome suggestio ns from Mem bers in the Ho use tha t is exactly how the y wi ll be treated. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Memb er for St. Ja mes, with a supplementary question. Mr. Edwards: In fact , experts have made th is recommenda tion, and the fact is th is Mi nist er's definition of premature must be put in the context of a six month delay with saying anything about tha t fire. * (14 00) Workplace Safety and Health Cancer-Causing Substances Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): I have a question for the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: Question, please. Mr. Edwards: Why wi ll th is Mi nister not put the standards for carcinogens in the workpla ce back to where the y belong, at the lowest detecta ble level? She does not need to wait for the labell ing recommendations to come down from the commit tee. She can do it by Order-in-Council now. She should have done it three months ago when the Premier said she would do- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. The qu estion has been put. Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minis ter of Labour responsib le for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr.

Sp eaker , we are in the process of making recommendations, but we do not wish to go forward to eithe r labour or management in the communit y with separate regulatio ns that the y wi ll have to do twic e over when the y could do it all at one time. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for St. James, with his final supplem entary question. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, she told emplo yers in this province tha t she was going to do it three months ago. Talk about confusion, it has not happ ened- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. Is there a questio n here? Lynn Lake, Manitoba Compensation Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James): For the same Mi nister, Mr. Speaker. Will the Labour Mi nister ensure tha t the workers at Lynn Lake at least get the $1 ,200 which the y have been promised by this Government before the end of th is we ek, in ti me for Christmas, given tha t la st week a repres entative from her department told workers that money would not be avail able maybe- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. The question has been put. The Honourable Mi nister of Labour. Hon. Gerrie Hammo nd (Min ister of Labour respon sible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr.

Speaker, we have already indic ated that we are waiving tha t regulatio n, and the money wi ll be there this wee k. Cardiac Care Waiting Period Mr. Steve Ashton (Thom pson ): I have a question for the Mi nister of Health (Mr. Orchard). For months we, in the New Democ ratic Party, have been expressing concern about the deterio ration of our health care system. We specific ally raised concerns about waiting li sts and, in partic ular, the waiti ng list for heart surgery at the Health Scie nces Centre.

In fact , six months ago we rais ed the fact tha t it had doubl ed in the period of ti me in whi ch th is Go vernment has been in office. Now we ha ve learned from Dr. Ja mes Parrott of the Health Scie nces Centre tha t in the past three weeks, 3875

Monday, December 18, 1989 two more people have died on the waiti ng list. One person wait ed as long as nine months for surgery. I wou ld li ke to ask the Mi nis ter of He alth wha t action the Minister has taken since we raised th is matter in the Legis latu re six months ago to deal wi th the situatio n? Wha t furthe r action wi ll he take in light of the various serious situatio ns, with two deaths in three weeks and people waiti ng for heart surgery in Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchar d (Minis ter of Hea lth): Mr. Speaker, two courses of action ha ve been taken th is year.

Firstly, to establ ish a commit tee chaired by Dr. Lyonel Israels to investigate the existence of waiti ng lists, the criterion, et cetera, et cetera, used in the open heart program at both St. Bonif ace and the Health Scie nces Centre, because my honourable friend might recall the re was a signific ant difference in the length of waiti ng lists at tho se two institut io ns. Despite the fact tha t last year more open heart procedures were done than ever before in the history of the province waiti ng lists continue to exist. Waiting lists continue to exist across Canada for open heart surgery.

As a result of tha t, in th is year's budget process we did provide, to the Health Scie nces Centre, some additio nal funding to be dedica ted to the open heart surgery program at the He alth Scie nces Centre to expand the capacity of open heart surgical procedures at th at institution. In the meantim e I am awaiti ng the report of the commit tee chaired by Dr. Israels, whi ch is investigating the ca rdiac surgery program between the two teachi ng hospit als. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, the Minister gave the same answer in May of th is year.

People are still waiti ng for surgery, and the re have been two deaths in the last th ree we eks. I would li ke to ask the Minister, wha t action wi ll he tak e-no t what comm it tee wi ll he appo int, the comm it tee tha t is not repo rt ed-to deal wi th the situatio n tha t we pointed out six months ago? The re were six deaths on the waiting list last year. There have been two in the past th ree weeks. Wha t action wi ll the Mi nister take? Mr. Orchard: The acti on I have taken is in

part increased funding to the He alth Scie nces Centre. I simply te ll my honourable friend tha t during the 49 hours of debate in the Health Esti mates my honourable friend never raised the issue once of the open heart surgery at the Health Sciences Centre. He chooses to do it in Question Period, for wha tever reasons I cannot speculate. I answered the question to my honourable friend tha t we increased funding for surgical procedures, including open heart surgery at the He alth Scie nces Centre th is year. Mr.

Ashton: Perh aps if the Mi nister would read beyond the headli nes in the newspapers, perh aps if he would talk to people, he would not be giving such an answer. I asked the Minister not for rhe toric but wha t was discu ssed in Es ti mates. Th is was rais ed in the Legis lature six months ago. Wha t action is he going to take now to deal with the deteriorating situation with the waiti ng list at the Health Sc iences Centre, wh ich has more than doubl ed since th is Go vernment came into offic e? Wha t action wi ll he take? Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend does not listen to the answers.

I have indic ated two courses of action. My honourable friend, from time to time, gets up and says we are not spending enough money, and we spend more money. Tha t is part of the solutio n tha t we have offered to the Heath Scie nces Centre with increased increased funding to be avail able to the open heart surgery program at tha t institution. Tha t is part of the answer. I am sure when we receive the report on cardiac surgery between the two teaching hospitals from the commit tee, chaired by Dr. Israels, th at furthe r answers wi ll flo w from tha t report. Experimental Drug Testing Manitoba Totals Mr.

Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, in fact the question about the Health Sciences was raised duri ng the Est i mate process. Mrs. Ja mes was a particip ant in the testing of Volmax, a new asthma drug, when she suddenly passed away. Can the Minister of Health (M r. Orchard) tell this Ho use wha t contact he has made with the natio nal Mi nister of Health to find about th is new drug involved in the study, and how many othe r new expe rimental drugs are being used in Manit oba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Hea lth): Mr.

Sp eake r, the death of the individual was a most unfortuna te and la mentable circums tance and comple tely, I ha ve to say, beyond anyone's prediction, obvio usly. Currently the Chief Provincia l Examiner is investigating the circumstances surrounding tha t very tragic situation. I have no comment tha t I would wish to offer at th is time pending the report to my colleague, the Mi nister of Justice (M r. McCrae), on th at inquiry. Monitoring Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr.

Speaker, we are asking whethe r the Mi nister has made contact with the national Minister of Health about the experimental drugs in Manit oba. Can the Mi nister of Health tell us wha t action he has taken to ensure tha t the othe r patie nts, who are participati ng in th is study, are protected before the cause of Mrs. James' death is found? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr. Sp eake r, befo re my honourable friend rais es unwarranted fears surroundi ng th is unfortuna te circumstance, let me explain to my honourable friend, and I ought not to have to do this, but I will. Mr.

Speaker, the expe ri menta tio n or the tri al basis of new pharmaceutic als occurs in this province and in every other provi nce across Canada, in terms of blind studies, double-bl ind studie s and other techniq ues, to assess 3876

Monday, December 18, 1 989 the effecti veness of ph armaceuticals tha t ha ve gone thr ough every li censing procedure. This is the final trial procedure before full im plementation and licensing if you will of tha t pharmaceutic al. Mr. Speaker, tho se trials go on, on a regular basis in th is province and in other provinces and the y go on with the fu ll co-opera tio n and knowle dge of the individuals who voluntarily sign up to be part of th ose ph armaceuti cal trials.

The unfortunate circumstances around the Ja mes' death are being investigated, and in the meantim e full precautions are being taken to ass ure tha t no other unfortunate incident simil ar happ ens as a result of th is trial. Guideli nes Review Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary. Can the Mi nister assure this House wi ll he review the guidelines to ensure tha t sufficient prot ect io n and informa tion is provided to all the particip ants of all the experiment drugs in Ma nitoba? � Hon. Donald Orchard (M inis ter of Health): Mr.

Speaker, tha t is a very easy que stion for me to answer in the affirmative, because tha t is exactly the procedure tha t is follo wed in every major institution when the se blind trials and double-bl ind trials occur wi th new pharmaceutic als. Every patie nt who enlis ts voluntarily in the program is explained the nature of the program, the expected outcome, the length of time and wha t the pharmaceutic al is designed to do to help them with their particula r condition.

Tha t is an assurance tha t I can give to my honourable friend easily, becaus e it is in fact part of the testing procedure tha t is in this province. * (141 0) Pritchard Place Heating Costs Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr. Speaker, my que stion is for the Minister of Communit y Servic es. Pritcha rd Pla ce, a drop-in centre tha t is servicing about 80 youths in the inner city, has been without heat for two weeks due to a broken boil er, and since we know tha t one of the reasons tha t so many young people in the inner city are on the streets is that the y have no place to go.

I am wondering if the Mi nister is going to respond positively to the reque st tha t came in to her today, her department, to help with some of the costs of replacing the boiler, which I th ink is going to cost about $12 ,000.00. Thirty-five hundred dollars in private funding has been presently found and they are awaiti ng a response from the Minister's offic e to see if some funding can be found, so tha t this centre can be kept open for inner city youths. Wha t is her response? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, to the Mem ber, yes we received tha t request.

Tha t is not an agency which is directly funded by my department, so th is is not someth i ng of course tha t would be within our budget. I wi ll be respondi ng to the ir reque st after I and my department have a chance to look at the situation. Emergency Funding Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr. Speaker, whil e it may not come directly under her department's area, I remind the Minister tha t th is is funded under the Core Area Agreement and the y are a partner. As a partner tha t is concerned, can the y not put forward the notion th at ther e should be some emergency funding found now?

It is not going to do any good to be found th ree or four months from now. It is 35 below , the kids are on the street, Christmas holi days are coming up, they ha ve no pl ace to go and tha t boiler needs to be repla ced. Their Christmas dance is going to be tonight. Wha t position, wha t action, will this Go vernment take to help open tha t drop-in centre for 80 inner city kids? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, as the Mem ber had indic ated, we have just ha d tha t request, and I wi ll assure her tha t we are taking a look at the request . Alternative Space Ms.

Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr. Speaker, my final suppleme ntary question is: I wonder when the Minister is looking at that. If it does not seem plausible to get the heate r replaced in a very short perio d of time, will the Mi nister be prepared to look at some alternative space? Ther e is a lot of space around. It just takes a little bit of will to get that centre open over the Christmas hol idays for inner city youths. Will she please look at all optio ns-fund ing options plus alternative space? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the Member tha t we will lo ok at optio ns, yes. Conawapa Project Environmental Impact Study Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, Manit obans are daily becom i ng mor e concerned wi th th is Go vernment's li p-service to the env ironment. All the right words are used and little action is taken. The Liberal Party indic ated in April of this year tha t the Repap EIS should be done as a whole and not piecemeal , and the Tories' failure to listen to this sage advic e is coming back to haunt them. Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of the Environment (Mr.

Cummings), given the $1 00 million penalty Hydro faces for not su cceedi ng with the Conawapa EI S, wha t assurances can the Minister give to the Ho use tha t the EIS wi ll be thorough and it will not be rushed in order to dodge the $1 00 millio n in the Tories' new game of environmental roulette? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Well, I am sorry tha t the Mem ber for Wolsele y (Mr. Taylor) ch ooses to misinterpret how the Hydro deal is structured in term s of assuri ng tha t com ple te and fu ll environmental assessment is done. I wi ll assure hi m tha t it wi ll be done.

He should reread the cla uses that 3877

Monday, December 18, 1989 refer to the penaltie s, because the penaltie s are not substantia l until a considerable amount of ti me has evolved. In fact , reverse onus the refore applie s, and the environmental im pacts wi ll have ample time to be exami ned and make sure tha t this is full and comple te in every sense of environmental assessment. Work Stoppage Request Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): We have already seen a massive fuel spil l occur at Conawapa, work has begun again on the access road, and the cofferdam clearing is complete.

Will the Minister order work stopped until all the envir onmental im pa ct st udie s ha ve been comple ted and public ally review ed? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of En vironment): Mr. Speaker - An Honourable Member: On one hand they want more jobs and on the othe r hand they want to stop- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, ple ase. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, again we see tha t the Liberal Party is prepared to sacrifice the ir princip les to try and make politic al gain. We ha ve just simply said that we are prepared to make sure tha t all environmental work is done.

The fuel spill that he refers to, the establ is hment of tha t tank farm whic h, al beit a small one, did ha ve an environmental imp act work-up done prior to the establ is hment of it. He can rest assured tha t we are pursuing the clean-up of tha t unfortunate accident in a very thorough manner. The major construction of th is dam will not proceed until the environmental im pact work is all done. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. COM MIT TEE CHANGES Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I ha ve some changes to make to the commit tee for tomorrow morning. I move, seconded by the Mem ber for Mi nnedosa (M r.

Gi ll esh ammer), tha t the composition of the Standi ng Comm it tee on Law Amen dments be amended as foll ows: Praznik tor He lwer. I move, seconded by the Mem ber for Swan River (M r. Burrell), tha t the composition of the Standi ng Committee on Municip al Affairs be amended as foll ows: Penner for Ducha rme, Findlay for Ernst, and Hel wer for Connery. Mr. Speaker: Agreed. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): I have commit tee changes to make. I move, seconded by the Mem ber for Transcona (Mr.

Kozak), that the composition of the Standi ng Commit tee on Municip al Affairs be amended as foll ows: Selkirk tor Osbo rne, Springfie ld tor St. Vital, Wolseley for Fort Rouge. I also move, seconded by the Mem ber for Transcona, tha t the composition of the Standi ng Commit tee on Law Amendments be amended as foll ows: St. Vital for Fort Garry, Kildonan for Osborne, and Transcona for Selkirk. Mr. Speaker: Agreed. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, would you be so kind as to call the Bills in the follo wing order, and before I give the order I might indic ate the re is agreement th at at 8 p.m. we would move a motio n, or perh aps at 6 p.m. we could move the motion and move into Estimates at 8 p.m. The Bills would be called in th is order: Bill No. 83, 84, 7, 8, 63, 64, 33, 35, 12, 19, 38, 59, 71, 76, 48 and 49. I understand also the re might be agreement to waive Private Mem bers' Hour today. Mr. Speaker: Is it agreed tha t we would waive Private Mem bers' Hour? Agreed. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 83-THE OZONE DEPLETING SUBSTANCES ACT Mr.

Speaker: On the prop osed motion of the Honourable Mi nister of Environment (M r. Cummings), Bill No. 83, The Ozone Deplet ing Substances Act;

Loi sur les substances appauvrissant la couche d'ozone, standi ng in the name of the Ho nourable Mem ber tor Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Stand. Is the re leave that th is matter remain standing? Agreed. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Whil e the Bill may remain standi ng in the name of my colle ague, I would li ke to speak to th is piece. Mr. Speaker: Tha t has been al ready agreed. Mr.

Storie: I think we all appreciate tha t the re are some signific ant pieces of legislation on the agenda and the fact tha t we have agreed to co-operate today to spend some considerable time speaking on different pieces of legislation is a recognition of the fact tha t each of us as individual ML As have establ is hed in our own minds a set of priorities about which Bills we want to speak to and wha t message we might want to leave our col leagues and the Go vernment with respect to some of th is legis latio n. This is one of th ose pieces of legis lation tha t I think wi ll receive the blessing of the Cham ber.

We are all aware of the imp ending dangers tha t are going to accrue to th is spaceship Earth as a result of the deple tion of the ozone layer. Wha t some people might not know is tha t the ozone layer is an extremely fragile layer in the stratosphe re of the earth. In tact, 3878

Monday, December 18, 1989 despite the fact tha t ozone can be found in some miles of atmosphe re above the earth's surface, if tha t gas wer e to be comp re ssed, brought togethe r, if the mole cules could be brought togethe r, and we are not talking about super compression but simpl y brought togethe r, the film of ozone around the ea rth would amount to milli metres thick. Somewhere, they estimate, between three and five milli metres thick.

We are talking about a layer tha t is protec ting the earth, protecting us from ultraviolet rays and the effects of skin cancer, protec ting pl ants from the effects of radiation. We are being protected by a layer of a substance, a gas, which is some three to five milli metres thick. When you think how fragile tha t is- I think, when you recognize the rela tive li mited amount of substance th at is providing this degree of protect ion you ha ve to be concerned. * (14 20) Mr.

Speaker, wha t should also concern people is tha t the fluo rocarb ons tha t ha ve been re leas ed, the substances like Freon and Halon, and so forth tha t dep lete and destroy the ozo ne, actually ha ve a cumula tiv e affect on the ozo ne la yer itself. This destruction does not occur at first contact necessarily. Atmosphe ric conditions have to be just right before the actual destruction of the ozone. What this means, Mr. Speaker-and scientists have been warning us of this for some time.

It means tha t the actual depletion of the ozone is going to continue actually lo ng after we have discontinued the use or the abuse of ozone depleting substances. We may already have created a situation within our atmosphere, within the stratosphe re, tha t will see the eventual depletion of the ozone layer, perh aps even in its entirety. We ha ve no way, at this point in time, of accurately calcu lating how much damage will be done and over wha t period of time.

We do know that since 19 74, when scientists first established tha t in fact these substances were depleting the ozone layer, in 19 74 the first set of scientists establ ished tha t the re was a hole in the ozone layer over the Antarctic. Since tha t time we have seen of course the continued depletion of the ozone layer. We now know tha t the re is not only a hole in the ozone layer over the Antarctic, but in fact the re is a northe rn zone, which is becoming larger, which is ozone depleted . Mr.

Speaker, because of the rela tive recency of this new scientific evidence, no one is able to predict, with any degree of certainty, what consequence the re is going to be from this depletion. There are all kinds of suspicions. We certainly belie ve-a nd the re is some evidence tha t the number of incidences of skin cancer are on the rise, although it is not certain to wha t extent tha t increase can be attribut ed to the depletion of the ozone layer. The fact is tha t more and more people are also taking advantage of wa rmer clima tes. The re is sti ll a considerable empha sis on tanning.

It is still considered a mark of some sort of status to ha ve a tanned exterior, notwithstan ding the dangers tha t people have always known of in terms of overexposure to the sun. The fact of the matter is th at we may be compounding things not only by exposing ourselves to more sunlight but because the ozone layer is being depleted and we are getting more ultraviole t rays. Mr. Speaker, we should not kid ourselves someho w tha t we can protect ourselves. The manufacturers of sunscreen blo cks and so forth may be making money by attempting to scare people into using their products.

I think it also lulls us into a fals e sense of security, perh aps giving some people the bel ief tha t because we can protect ourselves as individuals from the effects of ultraviole t rays, because we can apply a sunscreen, that somehow we are going to prevent any cataclysmic deterioration in our environment. There is no evidence to support the contention tha t because we can protect ourselves from skin cancer, and the impact of ultraviolet rays on our skin, tha t someho w we should ignore this problem. The fact of the matter is, the depletion of the ozone affects more than just huma n beings.

In fact, we may be the last in the chain of organisms affected by the depletion of the ozone layer, in a substantive way. We may be facing deterioration in the kinds of crops we can grow and the quantities of food we can grow around the world. There is all kinds of evidence tha t increased radiation leads to deteriorating crops, but no one kno ws the compound effect of increasing radiation on increasingly deteriorating agricultural lands and inadequate stocks of material for future generations of plant life. Mr. Speake r, the problem is significant. It is a compou nding problem .

This particular Bill, Bill No. 83, is a good first step again. It reminds me very much of Bill No. 84, The Waste Reduction and Prevention and Consequential Amendment Act, in that it gives the Go vernment, to a certain degree, a lic ence to act. I want to reiterate some of the concerns I raised with Bill No. 84. While it gives the Go vernment a lic ence to act it is very clear tha t it gives no commitment to the people of Ma nitoba. In fact , this Go vernment intends to act, or is going to act , in any way which would give us cause for rejoicing tha t a solution is at hand.

The fact of the matter is, the re is a Canadian convention, as well as, an international convention, which commits Gov ernments, states, provinces and countries to a gradual reduction in the production of ozone. I for one-and I belie ve many of my col leagues on both sides of the House will agree tha t convention does not state the problem in stark enough terms. I be l ieve, as perh aps many othe rs do, tha t this problem needs more immediate action. Mr. Speaker, some months before the Government ch ose to introduce its Bill No. 83 my col league, the Mem ber for The Pas (Mr.

Harapiak), introduced a Private Memb er's Bill asking the Go vernment to act on the ozone problem. In fact, the Mem ber for The Pas' Bill was very similar to the legislation which th e Go vernment eventually introduced. The difference between the Membe r for The Pas' Bill and this Bill is tha t the Mem ber for The Pas, along with his col leagues in the New Democratic Party Caucus, 3879

Monday, December 18 , 19 89 were prepared to act to make this Bill a reality, to implement, to bring to the Bill some intention to act . This Bill I think fal ls short in two respects. Firstly of all, in the introductory resolution, something tha t has become standard in our Bill s, the Government identifies ozone as a universal problem . It identifies tha t ozone in the stratosphere will cause serious harm or injury to the residents of Manitoba and the natural environment of the province.

Unfortunately, it did not go the significant further step and identify that we all ha ve to take responsibili ty for cleaning up this problem. Unlike Bill 84 which says, "AND WHERE AS tha t responsibili ty includes contributing toward the cost of waste reduction and prevention;" and I think we all agree tha t we have to sh are in the burden, this Bill does not make it clear that ther e is going to be a price to be paid for implementing this legisla tion.

You know, it is all fine for all of us to espouse the best in terms of the environment, to be statespe ople and talk about our commitment to impr ove the environment, protect the environment, without the concomitant recognition tha t there is a cost for doing that. Just as ther e is a cost in reducing our waste; just as there is a cost in protect ing our water, protec ting our soil, ther e is a cost in reducing our dependence and our use of ozone deple ting substa nces. I am not sure why the Go vernment wou ld move away from identifying, in the le gislation, tha t this is a joint responsibil ity.

It is not just the responsibility of the Go vernment, or the responsibili ty of the Legislature, it is the responsibility of people who produce ozone deple ting substances, the people who use them, and yes, the people who are charged with the responsibil ity of disposi ng of th ose subs tanc es. It is a joint responsibilit y, and tha t responsibili ty is going to be ext remely costly. Mr. Speaker, the fact tha t the Go vernment has now cho sen to downp lay the significance of th at responsibil ity I think is an unfortunate incident.

I think it is an unfortunate reflect ion on the fact tha t the Go vernment really does not ha ve the will to introduce any strong and significant measures to do any of the things it says it wants to do. I chal lenged the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Cummi ngs) when he introduced Bill No. 84, The Waste Reduction and Prevention Act . I chal lenged him to bring forward regulations.

This Bill is all very fine sounding, but until the people of Manitoba know what items are going to be surtaxed, wha t tha t surtax level is going to be, who it is going to apply to and how it is going to be applied this is a relatively meaningless Bill. Until the regulations that flow from Bill No. 84 are put before the publi c, until we know wha t their intention is, it is only words. Mr. Speaker, tha t is my problem with Bill No. 83. Bill No. 83 identifies ozone as a problem, says tha t it is going to make it ill egal, basical ly, for anyone to make or use an ozone depleting substance.

Tha t is in Sec tion 3( 1) , it says, "P rohibition." Basically he is saying tha t everything tha t is ozone depleting will be disallow ed, prohib ited. Then it goes on to identify who can search for and who is responsible for enforcing this legisla tion, identifies the rules for search and seizure, et cetera, of enforcement officers. Finally, it talks about penaltie s. It says we are going to impose some fairly significant penalties on users, producers, of th ese particular products. Now the se products are never identified. Nowhere in the legislation are the y identified.

There is just no muscle in the Bill, Mr. Speaker. The fines are fairly significant. I am not going to argue with the le vel tha t th ey have chosen. It is an arbitrary level, the level of fines. The penalitie s can be up to $50,000 , or imprisonment for up to six months, or both in the case of individuals, and even larger, stiffer fines for corporations. Mr. Speaker, we do not know yet wha t products, what uses, this Bill might apply to. Then we come to the real problem of this piece of legisla tion and several others this Go vernment has introduced, tha t is, the regulations.

The regulations here identify, in general terms, what will or will not be allo wed. One of them says, "The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations (

a) prescribing substances or products as ozone depleting substances; (

b) prescribing cla sses or categories of substances or products as cl asses or categories of ozone deple ting substances; " and it goes on with a list of thi ngs tha t the executive can do in terms of identifying th ese substances but gives us no hint as to how this Government is going to move. * (14 30) Wha t we should be doing is identifying, just for sake of argument if nothing else, which produc ts the Go vernment might be talking about. For example, there are many, many fire extinguishers, which use ozone depleting substances.

In fact some of you may have seen a recent telev ision show tha t was I think poking fun generally at the federal Gov ernment, which created sort of an interesting, somewha t humo rous situation, where on the one hand the Department of Industry, Depart ment of Science and Tech nology was ha nding out an award to a company tha t was producing fire extinguish ers tha t were using as its propellant ozone deple ting subs tances particu larly Halon.

While the Gov ernme nt was appla uding this company for its innovation, on one hand saying, yes, this is really wonderful, on the other hand the Go vernment was writ ing legisla tion, which banned the sale of fi re extinguishers using tha t product. Mr. Sp eaker, this leg isla tion is desirable, good le gislation, but there is a certain amount of cowa rdice on the part of the Government in introducing thi s. They have not raised with the public, on any occasion tha t I am aware of, wha t products are going to be targeted, how th ose products are going to be elimi nated, and who is going to pay for the cost .

Let us use an example: every business in this province, virtually every business, air conditions their pla ce of business for the comfort of its customers and its clie nts. Who is going to pay for the replacement of the current system? Who is going to pay for the 3880

Monday, December 18, 1989 additional cost of introducing air conditioning systems that do not use ozone depleting substances? Who is going to pay for the additional cost for the ai r conditioning in your car? Who is going to pay for the additional cost for the air conditioning of your residence? Who is going to pay for the cost for the hundreds and hundreds of other uses tha t the se products produce or are used in producing, paper cups, styrofoam cups, pla stic goods and mat erials, insulations, wha t have you?

The fact is tha t ozone depleting substances, and the Bill lists the chem ical names of tho se substances on page 2, CFC-11, CFC- 12, CFC-1 13 , et cetera, et cetera. I will not try to pronounce the chemical names, but ther e is a whole series of them and the y are obviously in hundreds and hundreds of products. Is the Gov ernment serious? Tha t is the question we ha ve to ask. Is the Min ister of Environment (Mr . Cummings) now consulting with groups across the province, the environmental groups, consumer groups and, yes, producers? Is the Minister now conducting those kinds of inquiries?

Are we going to be told? Is the public going to be told tha t, yes, this is fine sounding legislation but the re is a cost, and we are all going to sh are in tha t cost and we are all going to take some responsibility for it? I belie ve tha t a responsible Go vernment would do that. I belie ve tha t a responsible Government wou ld not try and sell itself or buy itself a new mandate based on le gislation like Bill No. 84 and Bill No. 83 without tel ling the people the truth, and the whole truth th at while this is necessary, there is a cost. Let us be honest about this. Let us identify the cost.

Let us tell people in what manner we are going to pay for this and over wha t period of time, because this legisla tion alone, sitting on the books, is going to do us no good. If we are serious about acting in the best interests of this province and this pla net in the near term, if we are going to be honest about it, then we now have to say, yes, ther e is a cost , here is what it is and here is how we are going to pay for it. We should start by te lling people tha t as of next year, in the Province of Manitoba, th ere will be no air conditioners allo wed in vehi cles unle ss the y meet th ese criteria.

There will be no vehicles operating in the province tha t use ozone depleting substances, because if we do not take action, if we do not take ourselves seriously as a province, if this Go vernment is using this as a polit ical carrot for th ose who are really concerned about the environment, then frankly I do not want to be involved in this. I do not want to be involved in this. When I asked the Minister of Environment to table the regulations tha t went along with Bill No. 84, he smiled.

I am now asking the Minister responsible for Bill No. 83 to table the regulations, to issue a Wh ite Paper and say, wha t is this going to cost? Who is going to pay for it and raise the serious questions tha t this Bill does not address? If the Minister is not prepared to do it, if this Go vernment is not prepared to do it, then this frankly is a sham. I do not want to belie ve tha t.

I want to belie ve tha t the re is enough colle ctive interest in the environment, 3881 and to protect the environment, tha t we will actually do something, but I am a little reluctant to pass this kind of legisla tion, which gives the Government a blank cheque to do nothing. There is no requirement in this legisla tion for the Government to even come forward with regulations on a specified date or within a specified time period. The Gov ernment is under no obl igations according to this Act to introduce regulations at a set time and at a minimum. At a minimum, Mr.

Speaker, I think the Government should be wi lling to identify a timeta ble for the people of Manitoba. It seems to me tha t is a very reasonable minimum to ask of the Go vernment, a very reasonable minimum. I am also some what disturbed by the fact tha t when I raised the issue of honesty on the part of the Government, th ere is no reaction. It leads me to bel ieve tha t the Government has no intentions of act ing on this legislation. If tha t is the case, then it is even more disheart ening than I would have bel ieved possible. It would be nice to belie ve tha t at least the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cummings) is genuinely concerned, has his own timetable, and ha s worked out a timetable with his department and with some of the interest groups tha t he consults with on a regular basis. I am prepared to le t this Bill go to committee. I know tha t other people may want to speak on this Bill. As I say the principles in the Bill are important. They are worthy of support. They were worthy of support when my colle ague from The Pas (Mr. Ha rapiak) introduced this Bill many months ago. We want to see some concrete evidence tha t this is not just some fluf f for elec tion purposes so tha t Mr.

Filmon or the Member for Tuxedo, or the Memb er for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) can put on their little brochure tha t the y hand out, we introduced The Environment Act and The Waste Reduction Act and The Ozone Deple ting Su bstances Act . Frankly if the y do that, without having the intesti nal fortitude to introduce regulations, which show what the y intend to do and how they are actually going to protect our environment, the y will be doing us all a disservice, and of course the y will be undermining wha t little credibili ty the y have on environmental issues.

Thank you for this time and for allo wi ng me to put my thoughts on the record with respect to Bill No. 83. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Thomp son (Mr. Ashton). BILL NO. 84-THE WASTE REDUCTION AND PREVENTION AND CONSEQUE NTIAL AMENDM ENTS ACT Mr. Speaker: On the propo sed motion of the Honour able Min ister of the Environment (Mr . Cummi ngs), Bill No. 84, The Waste Reduction and Prevention and Conseq uential Amendments Act;

Loi sur la reduction du volume et de la production des dechets et modifications correlat ives, standing in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Wolsele y (Mr. Taylor), who has 26 minutes remaining. The Ho nourable Member for Wolseley.

Monday, December 18, 19 89 Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I hope the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey) is as good as his word . He says, he is going to listen with interest . I would hope so. I would hop e tha t the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) will also. This is

an Act tha t is a very important Act for Manitobans. It talks about waste reduction, it talks about the prevention of waste and the conseq uences ther eof. It is the first piece of legislation of this nature tha t this province has ever had, and I think in tha t sense it is rather avant-garde. It is not so avant-garde in some of the detail of its content, however.

For example, when one looks at the WRAP strategy, the Waste Reduction and Prevention Strategy Report, which is supposed to be coming before this Legislatu re, the way the Bill is written the Minister can delay the reporting of tha t report, a very important report, to people in general but particula rly tho se concerned with waste reduction. Wha t he can do is, he can delay the report until the House is in Session.

I for one will be proposing an amendment to this statute when we do get into comm ittee, to the effect tha t the Comm ittee on Natural Resources wou ld be empowered to receive tha t report within two weeks of the report being transmitted to the Minister. In tha t way we would not have to wait for a sitting of this Ho use to receive the report, to discuss its contents and to talk about which way Manitoba shou ld go further in reducing waste in the province.

I think tha t is very important, and I think tha t is something tha t must come about. * (14 40) I have some co ncerns, though, about another study group being set up particula rly when there has al ready been a task force establ ished by the Premier of this province on recycling. It is the same subject area tha t we are talking about, the same subje ct area th at now the Minister of Environment (Mr . Cummings) wants another study group on. What is the pu rpose of the task force on recycling and waste reduction announced in the thr one speech by our own Premier?

Do we have two groups doing two different thin gs in the same area of concern? I have some concerns about it if tha t is the case, if not I think it is incumbent upon the Go vernment to indicate, quite clearly, the differences in roles, the differences in the goals th at will be attai ned and the differences in the time li nes, not just tha t one is reporting to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and one reporting to the Minister of Environment. We will be proposing an amendment in tha t area, and I think tha t is important.

I mentioned when I was speaking earlier, on Friday, on this same Bill tha t we had concerns about the le vels of penalties -n ot tha t the y were ther e-s ome concern however on the level of them but more concern when one sees what ha ppens, like the fuel spill of the 45,000 litres of diesel oil at the Cona wapa dam site, on which th ere is a punitive fine of $19 8 twice for two very, very minor infractions. The two major infractions are waived, are stayed, by the lo cal Crown prosecutor on the advice of the Dep artment of Environment and this Minister of the Environment (Mr. Cummi ngs).

Tha t says to me ther e is no will to enforce environment Acts. We ha ve a new Environment Act here, The Waste Reduc tion and Prevention and Conseque ntial Amendments Act, which does have penalties which I prophesi ed, though there will not be the polit ical intes tinal fortitude to carry out with any enforcement of th ose penaltie s to ensure tha t we do ach ieve compl iance. Tha t is unfortunate, but that is the track record tha t ha s been establis hed in the last year and a half under the exist ing Environment Act.

It, quite frankly, makes a mockery of another piece of le gislation which we will be dealing with very shortly in this Hous e, tha t is, Bill No. 81, The Environment Amendment Act . Tha t Act deals with only one thing. It deals with increasing the level of penalties from five times to 10 times wha t the y are in the Bill th at was brought in by the former administration. We are not opposed to the Bill. We are not going to vote against it, but we are going to speak to the hypocrisy of

an Act coming forward when you are not using the enforcement cl auses in the exis ting Environment Act. I have a little trouble with tha t sort of thing. I did start to mention, Friday past, my concern about the lack of initiatives in this area, the lack of initiatives of joint private-public enterprises, or undertakings, to look at more waste reduction, to look at, first of al l, re-use, then waste reduction and then recycling, the three Rs of the environment. We see little of that.

One of the things tha t gives me the greatest concern when tal king about th ose is not tha t they are not spoken to, to some extent in the Act. The y are, but there is no additional grant money in the Minister's budget, and we raised tha t point in the Estimates process. There is no additional grant money for private groups to either undertake on their own or in conjunction with other companies or industries, or to undertake in conjunction with public bodies such as this provincial Go vernment. There is no additional grants money at all. It is a couple percent greater than wha t it was last year.

Well, wha t is that, Mr. Speaker, going to do? Tha t is going to mean th at you say the right thing phi losophic ally, you enshrine it in

an Act tha t, if passed by this House after due debate, is given Royal Assent, and then there is no way to apply it, because the dolla rs are not th ere to do it. The dolla rs are not ther e for the grants to initiatives with the private sector to carry out new and interest ing work to deal with reduction and recycling and reuse of materials. That is a sad statement of the polit ical reality. The right words are there, the window dressing is th ere, the where withal to carry it out are not.

The reference in this Act to the environmental officers, as we have in the other environment Acts before us in this Ses sion, is quite appropriate. What is an environment officer and what are the y doing and how many are th ere of them? Tha t is the mo st important part of all, how many are the re of them. It outli nes certain of the responsibil ities and the capab il ities. In other words, wha t are the y authorized to do? 3882

Monday, December 18, 1989 I would wonder tha t quite frankly the y have the powers necessary. I have seen no discourse from the Minister saying where does he feel the bounds of the authority of the officers under his department should be or the officers tha t are ostensibl y environment officers but operating under other departments such as the Health Depar tment, Agric ultur e Depar tment, Na tu ral Resources Depart ment, whatever. Any of them tha t can be deemed to be some form of environment officer, wha t is the extent of their autho rity?

How will th ey be recognized and how capable will they be in practical fact to operate? Those sorts of thi ngs have not been discussed at any time by any Minister of the Environment by this administration or the preceding one. I think it is time we understood what an environment officer means. We have some understanding of wha t a natural resources officer is, we do ha ve an understanding of that. Some of us feel there are some lim itations in wha t tha t officer can do under Natural Resources.

It is certainly not clear wha t an environment officer is sup posed to do under the Depart ment of Environment, and I think it is incumbent upon the Minister to make tha t crystal clear to this Legislature and to all Ma nitobans so we know wha t tha t officer can do and wha t their expect ation of performance will be.- (int erje ct ions)- I appr eciate the suppor tive comments from the Mem bers adjacent to me. The environment officers have limitations though that are very profound in one area. That is, how many of them , Mr Speaker , are th ere to carry out their responsibilit ies within our jurisdiction?

I hear mumble s and grumble s and ramblings from the former Minister of the Enviro.m 1ent from his seat, but not much sense is being made by him, and I do not find tha t terribly surprising. The fact of the matter is, we have an undersized Environment Department compa red to other ministries within this Go vernment and com pared to other Environment Depart ments in Canada . Other Environment Departments in the provinces of Canada other than Manitoba have been reinforcing th�t department, have been build ing up the structure so tha t it is capable.

What we ha ve instead ii:. we have a series of Acts here, 81, 83 and 84, tha t are potentially good pieces of legisla tion, but there will not be the whe rewithal to carry out the claus es contained within th ose Acts on the environment I think tha t is a sad tes timony to the lack of polit ical will on the part of the Conservative administration, because as I ha ve said before and as I will say again and as others will take up the cry, li p-service environmentalism will do no good.

Lip- servic e environmentalism will do no good, and the hindsight environmentalism of the former administration is really a wonder to behold.- (interject ion)- The Minister for Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) from his seat , Mr. Speaker, says give us the tools and we will do the job. It is up to his Gov ernment to provide the tools and then do the job. Tha t is what is missing. All the rhetoric, al l the talk and all the right buzzwords my goodness their buzzword generator is working overtime. It is going to overheat We had enough of tha t through hours and hours, Mr.

Speaker, in the Environment Department Estimates. The substance was not there, the detail was not there, and we know the will is not there. .. (1 450) I am saddened by that, but we will deal with this with relish I can say in the committee process, because I think tha t is one of the most ex citing parts of the work of this Legislature, in the commit tee when we review legislation in some detail, and we can put the ideas on the table, we can debate them at some depth, we can hear the delegations. I think tha t is one of the most refreshing things when people come in from outside, Mr.

Speaker, and tell us wha t their concerns are, wha t their reservations are, where th ey think we can do it better, and how. I really look forward to tha t I will be putt ing many an hour in the committe e sessions. This Act I feel, Mr. Speaker, deserves some very close scrutiny, not because it is a particularly bad piece of legisla tion, but because it is a particularly important piece of legisla tion.

I wou ld have to say though tha t when the budgets two years in a row do not match with the legislation coming forward I as an ML A, and as the Environment Critic of the official Opposition, am having a lot of grief with it, so are the environmentalists and so are the average citizens. As we get together as a community over these holida ys, and we meet with our friends and col lea gues tha t maybe we have not seen tha t much of over the year, because we ha ve been too busy here in this building, there is going to be a lot of discussion out there about the environment, environmental issues and environmental Acts.

I am sure tho se th at are really listening when the y are out ther e lifting their glass of good cheer, rekindling acq uaintances, friendships and seeing family members, will, if the y are prepared to liste n, get a good earful on the environment. I hope tha t the Mem bers opposite will bring back some refreshing ideas and a greater degree of will to see improvements to the environment in this province and to accept positive and constructive amendment to the pieces of le gislation tha t are being put forward here. I will deal in more detail on this Act when it does come forward to the comm ittee stage.

Thank you. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson ): I look forward to being able to participate on the debate on this Bill, because it ha s really summed up the whole debate on the environment, this and Bill No. 83, which I will also be addressing, Mr. Spe aker.

If one looks at the debate tha t has taken place on this Bill, I think you will see the way in which the current Go ve rnment is att empting to rewrite hi story, is attempting to bring in, and I think the previous speaker summed it up quite accurate ly, the right rhetoric, the right words in terms of the environment, but very little action, and then attempt I bel ieve to say to the people of Ma nitoba tha t someho w th ey are concerned about the environment, the y are acting on the environment and tha t the y should have credibility on the environment. 3883

Monday, December 18, 1989 Well, I have news for the Mem bers. The y have a slight problem in doing that. I want to give you an exam ple of the extent to which they will go to att empt-a nd this is for the particu lar edification of Mr. Dave Bla ke who I notice in the galle ry today. I certainly welcome him back. He I belie ve will remember-he was a Mem ber of this Hous e prior to 19 88-s ome of the deba tes tha t went on. The former Mem ber for Min nedosa will remem ber ho w many ti mes the Conservatives raised concerns about the environment in Question Period in the Manitoba Legislature.

He can remember it I am sure, because it surely must be able to be counted on one hand. The y very rarely raised it. I think th ey were alm ost in a time warp, Mr. Speaker. I give you an example of the Minister of He alth (Mr. Orchard) who gave a speech on this very Bill and talk ed about the record of the previous Go vernment. He gave a speech on the record of the previous Go vernment and never once did he mention the words, The Environment Act.

A number of us were in our seats and were trying to encourage the Mi nister of Health to come out with th ose words, to spit them out, to talk about The Environment Act, The Environment Act tha t the previous Ne w Democratic Pa rty Go vernment passed, which is one of the best pieces of environmental legisla tion in Canada, and has been acknowledged as being one of the best pieces of le gislation, a dramatic piece of le gislation. The Minister responsible for Natural Resources (Mr.

Enns) applauds and so he should because tha t was a piece of legislation tha t moved Manitoba to the forefront in terms of the environment across this country. Not once in the speech of the Minister of Health (Or chard), and he has spoken on other environmental issues since, did he mention it? (Mr. Gil les Roch, Acting Speaker, in the Chair ) There is a reason for tha t and tha t is because if you were to listen to the Conservatives the y wou ld try and say tha t nothing had happened in the environment. Well nothing could be further from the truth.

Tha t Environment Act, in and as of itself, is indication of the strong commitment of the New Democratic Party to the environment. It is about time the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) did his ho mewo rk. Perhaps he was not paying att ention to the environmental issues when he sat here in Oppos ition. I suspect tha t is true, because as I said you can count on virtually one hand the number of environmental questions asked by the Conservative Opposition at the time. That I think speaks to the bottom line of this issue. The fact is the New Democrat ic Party was comm itted to the environment.

The fact is the Conservatives were not when the y were in Oppos ition, and their new found conversion to environmental issues is really nothing more than a conversion to rhetoric. It is nothing more than a conversion to issue management. I do not think anybody in this province belie ves, Mr. Acting Speaker, no one belie ves, tha t the y are going to stand up to the big corpor ate poll uters, their friends, the big corporations. No one belie ves tha t. The former Minister of the Environment, who likes to speak at length from his seat on environmental issues, I think is a cla ssic example of that.

When he was Minister he made sure tha t he removed a member of the Cle an Environment Comm ission who had the temerity to complain tha t the Minister of Environment had said do not go too hard on a major emplo yer in my constituency on the environment. Now the Minister said he was only joking. This is the same Minister who only joked about pink slips to empl oyees. Some joke, some sense of humour. The bottom line is the former Minister responsible for the Environment said, do not be too hard on this major emp loyer in my constituency.

The bottom line was this member of the Cle an Environment Commission was removed within a matter of months of having made tha t statement public. I think tha t was one of the reasons why the previous Minister is no longer responsible for tha t department. I will giv e some credit to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) for having appointed the Deputy Premier, because I do bel ieve he would not make such errors in judgment as did the previous Minister. Time will tel l. The jury wi ll be out on the extent to which the current Minister of the Environment (Mr . Cummi ngs) is indeed truly comm itted to the environment.

The jury will be out as to whether he is willing to stand up to major poll uters in this province. We ha ve exp ressed concern, our Leader has expressed concern in particula r, about the way in which the previous Minister and the current Minister have not dealt in terms of appl ication of the new Environment Act to the Cit y of Winnipeg. I think we raised tha t in this Ho use. It is only because of pressure in this Hous e tha t there have been any developme nts in regard to the implementa tion of The Environment Act in terms of the City of Winnipeg.

I think tha t is going to be the bottom line th at people are going to have to ask themselves, Mr. Acting Speaker, who is going to stand up to the ma jor corporate poll uters? Who is going to say tha t given the demands tha t are taking place in our environment right now, the critical situation in our environment, tha t we need leadersh ip? We need leadersh ip starting from the big corporate poll uters, the big corporate poll uters. I do not mean to say tha t we shou ld not all be taking a role in deal ing with environmental -in fact we absolutely sho uld. It is an individual problem. It is a community problem.

It is a provincial problem. It is a federal problem. It is an international problem. None of us can stick our heads in the sand, whether it be in terms of the ozone layer, whether it be in terms of acid rain, Mr. Acting Speaker, whether it be in terms of the specific content of this Bill, the whole que stion of waste reduction and the conseq uential question of recycling. In Canada we are one of the biggest creators of waste in the world per capita. We are a very waste ful society. Perhaps it has been because of our relative affluence tha t we have been able to do it.

Perha ps th ere is someho w a percept ion tha t we have wide-open terrain, tha t we have the space, tha t perhaps we can afford to be a little less concerned about waste and recycling. 3884

Monday, December 18, 1989 * (1 500) The bottom line is if you look at what is happening, the sad

part in Canada is that if you look at the exam ple of countries, which have far lower rates of waste creation than we do, which ha s really moved ahead, and have pioneered in terms of waste reduction and recycling, it is proving not only to be beneficial to the environment, but it is proving to be beneficial economically as wel l. The bottom line in th ose countries is tha t act ion had to be taken initially by Go vernments, it had to be taken by the people saying enough is enough, we need leadership.

Then it foll owed through various regulations, various Acts, various systems that had been put in place, various recycling projects, for example, tha t have been put in pla ce and other controls. It worked specifically through public education, making people aware of the problem, and tha t is something we should learn from. Tha t was the process tha t took pla ce in th ose countries. In Canada we are we ll beh ind in th at area. In some areas there are encouraging signs, I think the Blue Box Program, in particul ar, in a number of major centres.

I was rec ently in Toronto and had the opportunity to see the program in act ion there. Wha t I think is the most fundamental ch aracteristic of tha t program is the public support it has received in recent years. Recycling is actuall y nothing new in Toronto; it ha s been around since the early 19 70s. There were a number of offshoots from the late '60s. A number of co-operatives were established. I know one in particular, the S-F ive Project tha t was establ ished and pioneered in terms of recycling. This was some 15 to 20 years ago. In Toronto the y were ahead of their time.

Now one goes to Toronto and finds a massive amount of support for recycling. Not a ho use is to be seen without some support, some involvement in tha t project . I think that is an indication of when the public has a perception of what the problem is, and it is a problem of how much improvement can take place. I belie ve tha t is what is needed in Manitoba.

I belie ve tha t there needs to be a strong process of public education to determine not only the problems tha t could be associated with refusing to act in this particula r area, but showing the fact tha t major changes can be made tha t can improve dramatically the situation in terms of waste removal and in terms of recycling. Tha t is why I think it is important to raise now in debate, as we discuss this particular Bill, these very issues itself.

I do know tha t there is one aspect of the Bill tha t does talk about a waste reduction and prevention strategy report being tabled with in six months from the date of the coming to force of this sect ion and annuall y the reafter. Tha t is good. It is good to have studies and good to assess the situation and provide ways in which we can improve the situation, but I just want to say to the Min ister respo nsible for the Environment (Mr. Cummi ngs), because he is certainly I know following this debate very careful ly, that I hope we will not see this as an excuse for inaction.

I hope tha t the Min ister responsi ble for the Environment will not become the same type of Minister tha t we are seeing in terms of the Minister responsible for Health (Mr. Orchard) who has appointed more committees and recycled more announcements-in fact he should be the Minister responsible for recycling if you look at the way in which he ha s announced the He alth Advisory Network about 15 times, the Health Promotion Trust Fund 15 ti mes since he has been in office, and by the way has managed to very little, if anything, in terms of tho se particula r Bills.

I hope the Minister responsible for the Environment wi ll not become a recycler of announcements and a recycler of rheto ric. I hop e he will not become an individual who will appoint commit tees to dela y implementation of action. Act ion should not wait for this report or the annual reports the reafter. There are many documented ways in which we can move, and I bel ieve the public of Manitoba is ready to support action. The y are ready to support, in a fundamental way, a change in attitude toward waste in our society, toward recycling, I bel ieve tha t to be the case. I wou ld point, for example, Mr.

Act ing Speaker, to the task force tha t we have appointed in terms of the Ne w Democratic Party, tha t went across the province. I would recommend by the way to the Minister tha t he go through this process as wel l, because we received many, many excellent proposals from individuals, from individual cit izens in each and every community tha t this task force visited. There were some excel lent ideas in terms of waste reduction and in terms of recycling. I bel ieve tha t is a process the Go vernment could do well to foll ow.

We certainly have been releasing our reports and we wou ld hope tha t the y would study them because the y are reports-y es, the y are issued by a polit ical Party, a Party tha t is concerned about the environment, but the y are not pol itical reports in the partisan sense.

I do not think there is anything tha t is in th ose reports tha t could not be adopted by any Go vernment tha t was concerned about the environment, because the se are recommendations from environmentalists, these are recommendations from co mmunity groups, it is recommendations from individuals, many of whom are individual cit izens who are not tha t involved in the polit ical process. I would recommend, and I am sure our environment critic, the Mem ber for The Pas (Mr.

Ha rapiak) who cochai red the Environmental Task Force, will be more than happ y to make copies of its reports available to the Minister responsible for the Environment, because in many ways it has been doing what this Act talks about It talks about establishing the Waste Reduction and Prevention Strategy Report. Well, we drafted it because of the input of individual Ma nitobans, and I wou ld recommend it, I would strongly recommend it to the Minister. I realize it might be somewhat difficult for the Minister.

He may be afraid of giving credit to the task force and indirectly to the polit ical party, the Ne w Democratic Party tha t sponsored the task force. I think if we are to reach the ultima te goal which is to put environmental issues ahead of narrow parochial concerns or even Party concerns, partisan concerns, I think tha t might be a valuable step by the Minister. * (15 10 ) 3885

Monday, December 18 , 1989 I realize tha t he has a difficult y, because in essence the Conservative Party is full of, perhaps I will use this analogy, born-again environmental ists. I do not think th ere is anything in their record prior to 19 88 tha t would show any sympathy whatsoever for the environment. I wou ld once again challenge people to go thr ough the index for Hansard for the period prior to 19 88. The Memb er for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) has sat in this Legislature since 19 81. I am sure he will recall that.

The Mem ber for the Interlake is here, one of the most senior Members of this House, ha s sat in this Legislature for 20 years. I am sure the Memb er for the Interlake can probably count, perhaps not on one hand but on both hands, the numb er of qu es tions on the environment tha t Conservatives have ever asked when th ey have been in Opp osition, anything that was ever raised. Wel l, he is counting now, I think we were up to about four or five. We may get to two hands; there may ha ve been eight or nine or ten questions. The bottom line, Mr.

Acting Speaker, is the y have very little concern about the environment, virtually none. It is ironic when the y try to rewrite hi story, as did the Minister of Hea lth, and leave out The Environment Act, one of the most significant developm ents in this province. They have not yet accepted the fact , the y have not come down to the bottom line, and tha t is they have jumped on the band wagon since the y became Go vernment.

The y are spouting the rhetoric; the y have brought in some Acts, some of which ha ve some substance, but the bottom line is, I do not belie ve tha t Ma nitobans really give the Conservatives a lot of credibili ty on environmental issues. The y know tha t when push comes to shove, if there is a choic e, and the Minister of Northern Aff airs (Mr. Downey) is continuing to go the same route as the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard), he has not yet, and I want to hear the words come from his mouth to say, The Environment Act ; The Environment Act, because one of the .best environmental acts in the country was passed by the previous Ne w Democratic Party Government and he knows tha t and tha t is why the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and the Minister of No rthern Affairs (Mr. Downey) and the Mem ber for Portage (Mr.

Connery), the former Minister responsible for the Environment have not once in any of their speeches on this Bill mentioned that, and the y will probably not mention it, because it has a great deal of difficulty for them, th ey ha ve difficulty trying to develop their argument when it was pointed out. I think even the Min ister responsible for the Environment would reject tha t approach. I belie ve tha t he would take the approach of at least giving the former Gov ernment for bringing in The Environment Act .

I believe he is a basically fair individual and I look forward perhaps in his closing comments on this particular Bill to hear him say tha t he rejects the approach of his col leagues, he rejects the speeches given by Mem bers such as the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), who I do not belie ve in the time tha t he has been in this Legislature has even been known to utter the word "environment," let alone ask a question on it until the last year or year and a half.

I hope it is not, and I hate to be cynical, I hope it is not because the y have run a poll, perhaps a De cima poll or something, th at has said tha t environment is a concern and tha t someho w they shou ld all of a sudden be mouthing the word and talking about wha t great defenders of the environment they are. Their record will show that. If they want to com pare records, th ey can compare the record of their previous Gov ernment, the Lyon Government, in terms of the environment. Incidental ly, the cu rrent Premier was Min ister responsible for the Environment at tha t time.

Very few initiatives were taken at the time, and I think it is a sou rce of em bar rassment. It is a sou rce of em barrassment, absolut e source of embarrassment, Mr. Acting Speaker. We can get into the the MacGregor spill, we can get into issues such as that, but I do not want to dw ell on his tory, because people go through and look at the his tory of the environment in this province and environmental pol icy or they just go from what they know to be the situation, they know to be the case, and that is tha t the Conservatives have never really spoken up on the environment until it has become a major concern.

The New Democratic Party ha s been talking about the environmental concerns ever since I can remember, and I joined the New Democratic Party when I was 17 years old. Since tha t time, Mr. Acting Speaker, when I joi ned, and I am proud of tha t fact, ever since tha t time from tha t period on there has always been talk about the environment in the Ne w Democratic Party. When the Conservatives were out defending the corporate poll uters, their great supporters, the bigge st contributors to their Party, the Ne w Dem ocratic Party was taking wha t at the time was not necessarily a polit ically popular course.

It was not popular in the late '60's and early 19 70's to be ta lking about the environment in the sense it is today.- (i nterjection)- Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, the Minister responsible for No rthern Affairs says how concerned he has been about the environment. I may take the opportunity to go th rough-th anks to modern te chnology, we have a listing of Hansard tha t can pick out words, over the last period of time, we can go back 20 years. The Minister responsible for No rthern Affairs; we can find out how many times he even mentioned the word environment. I can say, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I have come to know the style of the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) very we ll in the eight years I ha ve been in this Legislature, I know he has not raised th ose concerns -(interject ion)- The Deputy Premier (Mr. Cummings) asks if I am going to emula te the Minister of Northern Affairs. I can say- God knows I do not want to be emulating the Minister of Northern Affairs, and no offence to the Mem ber. He is a long-standing Mem ber. I do not wish to put down the Memb er in any way, shape or form on a personal basis -(interjec tion)- The Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey), says he wants to run in Thompson. I want to say tha t if he wants to get up and announce his candidacy today, I wi ll look forward to discussing environmental issues, northern issues, economic issues, issues of any kind. 3886

Monday, December 18, 1989 I will run against the Minister of No rthern Affairs at any time, Mr. Acting Speaker, any time tha t he is willin g to screw up the courage to put his money where his mouth is. The Mem ber for Arth ur, probably the most southern constituency in this province, is the Minister of Northern Affairs. Well, we have accepted tha t for some period of time because ther e are not any representatives in this Go vernment from the North.

Northe rners ha ve rejected them -{interjection)- lf the Minister is so confident about what is going to happen after the next elec tion, let him put his money where his mouth is and run in northern Manitoba. Then after the next election we might accept him as Minister of Northern Affairs. We know he will not, Mr. Acting Speaker. He will not run in northern Manitoba, because he is afraid to, because if he has to be he ha s a heck of a lot better chance of justif ying his inaction on northern issues with his constituents in south wes tern Manitoba than he does in northern Manitoba, and he knows that.

I do not want to be allo wed to be distracted by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey). I will be waiting for his announcement tha t he is running up north . I would prefer if he would run in the Thom pson constituency, then we could settle some of these matters once and for all. I have already indicated to the Minister of Northern Affairs tha t people I am sure will appreciate a parachute candidate. I mean, certainly the Minister likes to fly around the North enough. He could perhaps parachute in on our constituency one day and announce he is running.

Then we wi ll be able to have a direct debate on what is happening under this Minister, and wha t is happening under this Go vernment, in terms of Northern Affairs. We wi ll see -a nd I think one of the indications, by the way, Mr. Acting Speaker, of just how confident this Minister feels about his record as Minister of Northern Affairs will be if he is going to run in the North in the next elec tion. Let us not forget there is redistribution.

Th ere are three sitting Mem bers tha t are going to be compe ting for two seats in southw estern Manitoba unless there is some bumping along, and I would say tha t the Minister of No rthern Affairs (Mr. Downey) could do his Party a lot of good by accommodating other Mem bers in tha t area and run in northern Manitob a. Then we will see, and we will discuss the environment. We wi ll discuss the economy. We will discuss a number of issues.

I would suspect , and I will say this on the record, if he does not run I think tha t is a clear indication of just how afraid he is to stand on his record in northern Ma nitoba and be accountable for his record. We will deal with tha t as it arises.- (interjection)- I can tel l you, he says if I run in Arthur, he will run in Thomps on. He is the Minister of Northern Affairs. I have never in this Legislature clai med to be a great spokesperson for southwest Manitoba.

I will say tha t is a job tha t is best left to people who are from the area who represent thos e constituents, whatever Party they are, in the same way tha t I am proud to represent my area of the province, northern Manitoba, Thompson, and the many other communities and the surrounding area tha t will soon be part of the Thomp son constituency. I am proud to represent their concerns and I will look forward to seeing if the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) has the polit ical intestinal fortitude to put his money where his mouth is. We all know the extent to which the Minister has a mouth.

We will see if he will put his money wher e his mouth is, and if he will run in northern Manitoba. I do not want to be deflected , Mr. Acting Speaker, from the important issue, the environment. That is the fact tha t throughout this debate, th ey have refused, the Go vernment has refused, to acknowledge what happened prior to 19 88, which is the fact -and once again, the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.· Downey) does not mouth the words, The Environment Act. *

(1520) Well, Mr. Acting Sp eaker, I gave him a chance and once again he did not do it. It is amazing for someone who could be so vocal , how he cannot spit out The Environment Act, and tha t is for a reason, because tha t sh ows the commitment of the New Dem ocratic Party in terms of the environment. The bottom line though is wha t we are seeing on Bills such as this since 19 88 is tha t they have beco me something in terms of born again environmentalists. I do belie ve tha t the Minister responsible for the Environment (Mr.

Cummings) perhaps is not as prone to rhetoric on this issue as some of his colle agues are. I give him tha t degree of credit. I think he ha s been a good study. He has certainly learned the concerns very quickly. He has had to, and I give him credit. I see the former Minister is giving him credit. So he sho uld; he is certainly an improvement over the record tha t we had under the former Minister. The Minister would be the first one to know that, Mr. Acting Speaker. The bottom line is, the Minister is going to have to go further.

I think he is going to have to first of all educate many of his col leagues who seem to think tha t the environment is something tha t can be th rown around as a word, tha t terms such as sustainable development, which has developed out of the Brundtland Report, the very exc ellent documentation of how serious the environmental problems are in our province, I think they have to go beyond just mouthing the words. We ha ve seen sust ainable development become sustainable rhetoric from this Go vernment. We have seen them recycle not waste, we have seen them recycle announcements and rhetoric.

People are expect ing more. The y are expect ing more, Mr. Acting Speaker, from this Government. They are expect ing more from all Go vernments than what we are seeing at the current time. I belie ve tha t to a certain extent we are seeing an interesting phenomenon. Tha t is, people are taking something of a green att itude tow ards the country tha t has never existed before. I do not mean to say green as in the Green Party. I bel ieve tha t is one manifestat ion of the concern over the environment.

I think we are seeing tha t all Parties are beginning to adopt at least the concerns and the terminology of the environmental movement. I think tha t is encouraging. I think tha t is very encouraging. 3887

Monday, December 18, 1989 We have to ask each and every person, each and every Go vernment tha t is talking tha t rhetoric to go beyond that. I bel ieve tha t it is going to require tough choic es. It is going to require tough choic es between some of the big corporate pollu ters and the people who are going to be affected by the pollution. It is going to require some cost measures. It may require some su pport from Go vernments. To get any type of environmental program working, you need to have some sort of funding, some core funding, even in terms of recycling for example.

I think the question is increasingly becom ing not whether we can afford to promote environmentally sound measures, not whether we can afford to recycle, not if we can afford to prevent unnecessary wast e, Mr. Acting Speaker. The real question is whe ther we can afford not to take act ion and tha t I think is something tha t we as legisla tors should be answering all the time. Tha t is a question we have to be dealing with. Can we afford not to? I do not belie ve tha t we can. Well, I do not want to suggest tha t this is necessarily the one and only priority area. We will be discussing this under Bill No. 73.

The whole que st ion of the ozone is something tha t is very serious. The whole question of the greenhous e effect is very serious. When I look at it, Mr. Acting Speak er, if you look at the trends, even this winter, some of the ha rshest wea ther on record in this province. We had minus 44.4 degrees in my own community of Thomp son just a few days ago. This unfortunately is exact ly what has been prophesied by tho se who are concerned about the greenhouse effect, the impact of the changes in the ozone layer, their concern about the huge extremes in terms of tem perature.

Wha t is happening is we are seeing it on an al most monthly basis tha t th ose prophecies by people who incidentally five and 10 years ago would ha ve been considered to be out in left field in many cases, many people who, as is the case with anyone who is ahead of their time, many individual scientis ts and environmentalists who were considered to be perhaps less than serious, who were considered to be outside of the mai nstream, considered to be rather extreme, many. of their prophecies in just a short period of five years are now bec oming the truth. We are seeing self fulf illing prophecies.

I think that is something tha t we ha ve to be very, very, very concerned about. It is something we all have to really think about, because as much as anyone can try and get up and say tha t the y are concerned about the environment, I think the bottom line is tha t prior to the last number of years the concern was not enough. It did not extend enough. There were certain people, certain individuals, certain groups, tha t were ta lking about the environment. We need to get it into the mainstream , and we need to recognize the bottom line tha t it is going to cost money. It is going to require real commitment.

I will be interested to see whe ther ther e is a real comm itment from this Go vernment. I do not bel ieve tha t ther e will be. I do not belie ve tha t ther e will be, Mr. Acting Speaker. I can tell you for the sake of our environment, I hope tha t we wi ll see some action out of the waste reduction and prevention strategy report tha t will be part of the by-product of thi s. I hope tha t we will see something out of the advisory committees tha t will be appointed if this Bill is approved.

We will see some real action out of the deposits, the colle cted deposits, another provision of this Bill, something tha t we wi ll certainly support in the New Dem ocratic Party. I could go through again in terms of the details in terms of enforcement, in terms of offences, which are all important sect ions of this Bill, warrant to enter and seize, some of the toughening up of the procedures tha t are envisioned by this Act. I could get into the penaltie s and also the exte nsive work in terms of the regul ations. I tend to agree, by the way, with the Mem ber for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), Mr.

Acting Speaker, and I belie ve the Mem ber for Wolsele y (Mr. Taylor) who have said the real measure of the success of the se Acts, actual ly, is not going to be in the Bill itself, this Bill or the other Bill, Bill 83, or any environmental Bill, it is going to be as much in the regulations, the enf orcement, the way in which the theor y of the Bill, the fine principles th at we are debating on second reading in this Bill, will be put in place. I think tha t is going to be the real test , and I hope the Go vernment will live up to tha t test.

I belie ve th ey do have the opportunity in this province to take some real action in terms of the environment, because we have indicated, the Ne w Democratic Party, tha t we wi ll support this. In fact, we are saying-w ith this Bill -we are willing to see this Bill pass through a second reading this week. We have listed six environmental Bill s, Mr. Act ing Speaker. Six environmental Bills are on the Order Paper tha t we have asked of the Government, not tha t th ey have asked of us, to bring forward tha t we would like to have passed thr ough second reading this week.

We have taken tha t unusual step, not just because many of the Bills had either been drafted by the previous Government, or in the case of Bill 83, reflect a Private Mem bers' Bill, or reflect concerns tha t are being exp ressed whether it be by ourselves or any polit ical party, we are asking for tha t commitm ent by the Gov ernment, because we feel they are important Bills regardless of what wea knesses the y may have. Some act ion on the environment is better than no action.

I want to state for the record-w e do have a number of other people who wish to speak on this Bill- but I do want to state, before comple ting my remarks, tha t we are anxious to see the se Bills pass through. We ha ve requested this of the Go vernment. We have said th at th ese should be the priorities of this Legislature, the environmental Bills. I bel ieve ther e is a general consensus amongst the Oppos ition. I hope the Gove rnment will suppor t that. I hope they will accommodate that, because their priorities have been different in terms of which Bills they feel shou ld be passed.

I am glad to see, by the arrangement of the Order Paper today, tha t there is some recognition now following the request tha t was made to the Government of the fact th ese are important Bill s. 3888

Monday, December 18, 1 989 As I said, we will perhaps be att empting to expedite this in a way tha t a number of you might not have the opportunity to speak on this. Tha t is unfortunate, because I know in our caucus probably each and every one of our Mem bers of caucus wou!d like to ha ve the opportunity to speak on each and every one of the se environmental Bills.

We have decided tha t rather than do tha t we would like to see the Bills passed, if we can, later on this week , at least into second reading so tha t early next year we can deal with the comm itte e reports and third reading, and we can have th ose Bills in pl ace in terms of Manitobans. There may be a number of amendments tha t will be brought in, Mr. Acting Speaker. We are al ready looking at tha t, ways of improving the le gislation, but I think this would be a first step. This is going to be a long Session. I think we all realize tha t. It may be longer than some people even realize at this point in time.

The bottom line is, while ther e are contentious issues before the Legislature in terms of the economy, or labour relat ions, or health care where we are seeing growing differences in terms of the position of the Parties in this Legislature, if there is one where we can at least, to a certain extent, have some focused opinion, some co-operation, I think it is the environment.

Tha t is not because we necessa rily all agree in terms of environmental policy, or we are all willing to go to the same extent, or we all have the same history of concern about environmental problems, but I think ther e has to be some recognition of the fact tha t at le ast on some Bills, whether it be Bill 84 tha t we are debating today, or some of the other environmental Bills, we can get some form of co-operation between the various Parties. I think ther e is some sense of co-operation. I hope that will be shown this week by the passage of the Bill.

I think it is impo rtant certainly, before we do get into the latter parts of the Session when I think we are going to come to some real crunch bott om-line issues tha t are going to sho w very clearly the differences in terms of policy where there is not even an atte mpt to suggest the Parties have a similar view-I have mentioned labour relations, the economy or health care, wher e I think ther e is a cle ar difference between the various Parties, but in this case, regardless of whe ther or not my criticism is true, and I belie ve it is, tha t the Conservative Party are born-again environmentalists, the y have not really shown much concern about the environment in the past, I think we can put tha t aside.

They can perhaps, Mr. Acting Speaker - An Honourable Member: Do you want to co-operate? * ( 15 30) Mr. Ashton: Yes, the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey)-1 do want to co-operate if it is going to benefit the environment. I have indicated tha t as House Leader within the New Dem ocratic Party to your Ho use Leader (Mr. Mc Crae), and to the Liberal House Leader (Mr. Alcock).

I bel ieve th ere is a consensus tha t we can get some co-operation on this particular Bill and other Bills, because regardless of whe ther or not we do have 3889 differences-and I belie ve in the environment, if you strip away the fine sounding words ther e are significant differences in the extent to which each Party is wi lling to go to prese rve our environment, protect our environment, take real initiatives. I belie ve tha t is the case.

I think regardless of tha t on the se particula r Bills, this particula r we ek, in this particular Session of the Manitoba Legislature the one thing we can do is, regardle ss of tho se differences, find our com mon ground, which is to see the passage of the se Bills ho pefull y by the end of the wee k, if sufficient time is available for debate. I bel ieve the intention is to make that.

I extend a message to Manitobans, and I will certainly be sending a message, I know, to my constituents certainly as Health leader for the New Democratic Party to Manitob ans as a whole, and tha t is, bottom line message, when it comes to real act ion in terms of the environment we will co-operate and we will co-operate to the ful lest extent possibl e. We have al ready taken initiatives by bringing our own Bills in Private Mem bers' Hour.

We are pleased to see some Go vernment initiatives, some of them which have already been drafted by the previous Government, some of which are initiatives based on the Private Mem bers' Hour Bill tha t we introduced, some of which are new initiatives. Regardle ss of where the y come from if they are good Bill s we will support them. With th ose words, Mr. Acting Speaker, I know the Mem ber for the Interlake may either ha ve some comments today or certainly will later on in the week.

I will say tha t we, in the Ne w Democratic Party, will be supporting the passage of this Bill through to committee, if at all possible, by the end of the we ek. We do hope to deal with it in committee later on in the Session as we enter into the new year. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): would like to say a couple of words to wrap up- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Roch): I am sorry. Order, pl ease. I did not see the Honourable Mem ber for Interlake rise. I understand tha t if the Minister is allo wed to speak now he will be clo sing debate.

Therefore, I recognize the Honourable Memb er for the Interlake, and I give him my apologies as we ll. Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. I would like to move, seconded by the Member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that debate be adjourned. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Roch): The Ho nourable Mem ber for Interlake has al ready spoken on this Bill. The Honourable Member for Dauphin. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I would like to move, seconded by the Member for Interlake (Mr. Uruski), tha t debate on this Bill be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

Monday, December 18, 1989 BILL NO. 7-THE INTERNATIONAL SALE OF GOO DS ACT The Acting Speaker (Mr. Roch): On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Ju stice (Mr. Mc Crae), Bill No. 7, The International Sale of Goods Act;

Loi sur la vente internationale de marchandises, standing in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux), the Ho nourable Member for lnkster. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): I was only going to take a few minutes just to go over this particula r Bill. I did want to put a few comments on the record. In today's world, we are moving more and more towards global trade. There are many positive benefits to moving in tha t direct ion in terms of economy of scale and so forth.

I belie ve we have to be somewhat cautious as we move towards a global economy, and tha t is we have to ensure ther e are industries tha t we protect tha t are here in Canada, in particular here in Manitoba. There is action tha t is needed and necessary in order to ensure tha t we have a diversified economy here in Manitoba and in fact across the country. This Bill helps to facil itate the need for a more standard contract, which will make it tha t much easier to have trade abroad.

If you will, it makes an atte mpt at sett ing a level pl aying field, ther eb y allo wing the manufacturing industry to be able to compete on a more equal basis, and tha t is important. Provinces, many provinces, Mr. Acting Speaker, have establ ished offices and profiles throughout the world. If we take a look in terms of hi story, in 19 60 for example, th ere were six provincial missions or offices if you will tha t were dispersed in the world and all working toward expanding the provincial trade from their provinces to th ose countries tha t the offices were in. (Mr.

Speaker in the Chair) In 19 71, we had 31 of the se such offices recognizing the importance for trading abroad. You have seen these offices grow to this year where we ha ve approximately 70 offices thr oughout the world. All of the se offices, Mr. Speaker, have bureaucracies and so forth in order to maintain them. No doubt, in the future, you are going to see the number continue to increase. There are some problems, Mr. Sp eak er. Some provinces are much more active than other provinces.

If we take a look at our pr ovinces tha t are really aggressive and active, you are looking at provinces like Ontario, British Colum bia, Queb ec and Al berta. Then if we look at other provinces tha t do have offices abroad, you are looking at provinces like Manitoba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Saskatchew an, and then th ere are a couple of provinces and the Territories tha t do not have the se offices thr oughout the world, tho se of course being Prince Edward Island and Newf oundland.

If we look at Manitoba in particul ar, we ha ve a couple of offices abroad, one being in Hong Kong and the other one being in Rotterdam. Both of th ese offices serve a purpose in trying to attract potential growt h and so forth to the province. Mr.

Speaker, I do have some concerns in terms of the sizes of the provinces or the resources th at different provinces have to be able to support th ese offices ab road, because if you take a look at a province such as Ontario or Al berta where the y have more wea lth, and the provinces such as Saskatche wan and Manit oba and moreso Newf oundland and Prince Edward Isla nd, they have the resources in order to develop in tha t area, to be able to have the offices. Some would say tha t it gives them an advantage.

The we althier provinces ther eby would have an advantage over the not so we althy provinces in the sense th at th ey would be able to have or establis h more offices abroad, thereby ha ving the abil ity to pote ntially attract more businesses and industries and so forth and trade to tha t particu lar province. I do have some concerns regarding that. If we take a look for exam ple at Quebec, the y actually have a ministry establis hed tha t has a budget of over $93 milli on for it.

Que bec alone has 26 offices or missions abroad to try and lure more businesses and industries and trade to tha t particular province. The bureaucracy emp loys directly, it is es timated, approximately 330 emplo yees. Mr. Speaker, I start thinking in terms of the whole question on Queb ec and the distinct society clause. Does this mean tha t by having a distinct society, do the y need to have this distinct representation abroad? Wha t comes to my mind is the question, why is this happ ening? Why do we have provinces tha t feel obliged to set up offices abroad?

I belie ve tha t is a problem tha t does need to be addressed and, as I pointed out, maybe because ther e are other provinces tha t are at a distinct disadvantage because of the resources tha t the y might have. The provinces such as Ontario and Al berta and B.C. and Quebec will argue that the federal Go vernment has not been addressing their concerns. They have not been out there pursuing tha t international trade for each and every province, and the y feel tha t the y can do a better job. Mr. Speaker, I think we have to be very aware of tha t.

It is up to the federal Government to ensure tha t industries are scattered throughout the province, tha t in fact , if you are a have-not province, you are treated to some of th ese industries tha t you might not be able to attract because you do not have an office abroad. • (1 540) Mr. Speaker, this also leads to provinces tha t will bid against each other.

We see time after time provinces trying to attract a particular manufacturer or monopolize on an industry and th row in many different types of incentives in order to try and attract it to tha t particu lar province, and in reality wha t we are doing is we are undercutting the other provinces' treasuries. It is very expensive to start putting up bids to attract or offer tax incentives, tax breaks or wha tever it might be in order to get tha t particula r plant located in their province. Then we can go back , Mr.

Speaker, to the idea tha t the provinces tha t do not have the resources to be able to bid with provinces like Ontario and Quebec are not going to be able to attract them for tha t simple 3890

Monday, December 18, 1989 reason, because they do not have the million s of dollars or tax benef its to dish out. Muc h more work needs to be done in terms of trying to ensure th at all provinces are treated equally to the dist ributio n of industries and diversification . All provinces would like to be able to susta in the ir economy not on one sector . If we take a look in history, we see what one-industries have don e to some of the provinces, and even currently if we look at the Atlantic provinces we see the problems that are going to be occur ring because of the fishery industry .

We look back during the oil energy crisis in Albe rta, what happ ened in Alberta when they r elied on oil to the degree tha t they did and the damage that it did, the high number of people who were affected in a very negative fashion . Mr. Speaker , Mani toba in some ways is somewhat fortunate in that we might not ever have that boom that Alberta might have, but hopefully we will never have the economic blow that a province like Newfoundland might have.

I think in that sense we are somewhat fortunate in the sense that we do have somewhat of a diversified economy, albeit considerably a lot smaller than, let us say, the Province of Ontario . Mr. Speaker, if we take a look at Manitoba alone, it is in fact a major world player when it does come to trade . Manitoba is estimated to have over 500 firms that export out of province, and it is estimated that we are looking at in and around $3 billion worth of material.

I believe that this particular Bill will help in facilitating this type of trade-and that is important in steps tt>at we can move that will enhance the trading that Manitoba can do. It will be that much better for all Manitobans. As we move closer or take closer steps to world trade , we should continue, but there is a need to be somewhat cautious . We have now entered into a free trade deal in which the Government , today's Government , supports whole-heartedly, but I do and my caucus colleagues have many reservations about the free trade deal and the impact it is going to have on Manitoba .

If we talk about some of the impacts , we can go throu

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