Manitoba Hansard — 8 December 1997 (Sitting 8, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-8

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No.8- 1:30 p.m., Monday, December 8, 1997 ISSN 0542-5492

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary. Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

259 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, December 8, 1997 The Honse met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Domestic Violence Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT domestic violence continues to be a serious problem in Manitoba that results in the injury and death of women across this province; and THAT certain initiatives such as the Family Violence Court, the Women's Advocacy Program and mandatory charging have been taken by the government; and THAT survivors of abuse, their families, service providers and the community at large recognize serious shortcomings in the response to domestic violence which continues to threaten the lives of Manitoba women and children; and THAT a blueprint for an effective response to domestic violence is being offered by several reports including the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the Pedlar report and the Lavoie inquiry recommendations.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government to consider preparing an action plan in consultation with the community for the timely implementation of meaningful change as outlined in the Lavoie inquiry, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and the Pedlar report. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT domestic violence continues to be a serious problem in Manitoba that results in the injury and death of women across this province; and THAT certain initiatives such as the Family Violence Court, the Women's Advocacy Program and mandatory charging have been taken by the government; and THAT survivors of abuse, their families, service providers and the community at large recognize serious shortcomings in the response to domestic violence which continues to threaten the lives of Manitoba women and children; and THAT a blueprint for an efftctive response to domestic violence is being offered by several reports including the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the Pedlar report and the Lavoie inquiry recommendations.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government to consider preparing an action plan in consultation with the community for the timely implementation of meaningful change as outlined in the Lavoie inquiry, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and the Pedlar report. *

(1335) Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

260 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT domestic violence continues to be a serious problem in Manitoba that results in the irljury and death of women across this province; and THAT certain initiatives such as the Family Violence Court, the Women's Advocacy Program and mandatory charging have been taken by the government; and THAT survivors of abuse, their families, service providers and the community at large recognize serious shortcomings in the response to domestic violence which continues to threaten the lives of Manitoba women and children; and THAT a blueprint for an effective response to domestic violence is being offered by several reports including the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the Pedlar report and the Lavoie inquiry recommendations.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government to consider preparing an action plan in consultation with the community for the timely implementation of meaningful change as outlined in the Lavoie inquiry, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and the Pedlar report. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT domestic violence continues to be a serious problem in Manitoba that results in the injury and death of women across this province; and THAT certain initiatives such as the Family Violence Court, the Women's Advocacy Program and mandatory charging have been taken by the government; and THAT survivors of abuse, their families, service providers and the community at large recognize serious shortcomings in the response to domestic violence which continues to threaten the lives of Manitoba women and children; and THAT a blueprint for an effective response to domestic violence is being offered by several reports including the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the Pedlar report and the Lavoie inquiry recommendations.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government to consider preparing an action plan in consultation with the community for the timely implementation of meaningful change as outlined in the Lavoie inquiry, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and the Pedlar report. * (1 340) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the report of Manitoba's Women's Advisory Council, 1996-97. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Blood Donor Clinic Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I have a ministerial statement. Today, I am very pleased to announce that a very special blood donor clinic is taking place to replenish blood supplies in Manitoba and northwestern Ontario for the holiday season. Not only is the purpose a noble one, but the drive is being sponsored by three organizations: Hemophilia Manitoba, the Red Cross in Winnipeg, and Manitoba Health. On behalf of the Manitoba government, I would like to express my pleasure with the opportunity to join with Hemophilia Manitoba and the Red Cross to sponsor this drive.

This co-operative effort is a first and shows that community partnerships are a rewarding and effective way to achieve a common goal. Madam Speaker, with your permission, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the presence of Mr. Mark Brown, president of Hemophilia Manitoba

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 26 1 and Mr. Mark Neskar, executive director of the Red Cross in Manitoba, who are in the gallery for this particular announcement. The clinic is taking place from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. today at the Bingo Royale hall at 932 Erin Street in Winnipeg, which is adjacent to the offices of the Hemophilia Society of Manitoba. As an additional element of the partnership, Monarch Industries is supplying free parking at their lot just south of this particular location. I would like to tell honourable members how the clinic was developed.

On November 4, I had the opportunity to meet with representatives of Hemophilia Manitoba to discuss a wide range of issues, including blood collection. We recognize that continued media publicity ofthe tainted blood issue was hurting blood donations and that the then forthcoming Krever report would exacerbate the situation. It was suggested that a drive be put together by Hemophilia Manitoba, the Red Cross, and the Ministry of Health, which could help in maintaining public awareness of the continuing need to donate blood, particularly during the coming holiday season.

I was very pleased that the Red Cross responded positively to this proposal when they were invited to join in the partnership. The need for this clinic is shown by figures the Red Cross gave to us recently, that donations have dropped off by 15 percent in this past year. Within the government, we have already drawn our employees' attention to the clinic and have encouraged them to participate. The intent of the drive today is to focus on the future. The immediate goal, of course, is to ensure adequate blood supplies during the holiday season.

Looking farther ahead, we want to send a strong, positive message to our citizens about the continuing need to give blood, as we and other governments work through the implications and recommendations of the Krever report and move Canada and Manitoba into a new era in our blood system. Madam Speaker, this clinic is the first time such a partnership has been formed to secure greater citizen initiative to donate blood. I hope we can work together in other initiatives to ensure a continuing saf e and dependable blood system for Manitobans and indeed all Canadians. Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for providing me with a copy of the statement just before we came into the House, and we on this side of the House welcome this initiative. One of the wonderful things about this nation is that we have created, on this northern part of the continent, a system of co-operation and caring for each other that is probably unparalleled in the world. As a result of this, we have our universal medicare system that is also unparalleled and recognized as one of the best in the world.

Together with that, we have had a blood collection system that has been universal, that has been freely accessible and that has worked over the past several years- albeit with some severe difficulties and come through crisis. Nonetheless, that system has worked to help our fellow Canadians, fellow Manitobans in their time of need. We have come through a major crisis and many people are suffering, yet we have been large enough I think to admit that mistakes have been made, and we are working together on solutions for that.

In typical Canadian and Manitoban fashion, we recognize there have been mistakes in some of the administration of the past, but the principle, that is, the principle of a universal blood system and a system that is freely accessible to all continues, and that is why we welcome this initiative today. In fact, to have the Red Cross together with the Hemophilia Society I think sends a strong message to all Manitobans of the strength of our blood system and our hope in the future. So we on this side of the House welcome this initiative and support it to the highest possible degree.

Thank you. * (1 345) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 2-The Elections Amendment Act Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey), that leave be given to introduce Bill 2, The Elections Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi electorale, and that the same be now received and read a first time.

262 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I am pleased to table the Lieutenant Governor's message along with that bill. Motion agreed to. Bill 3- The Elections Finances Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that leave be given to introduce Bill 3, The Elections Finances Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le financement des campagnes electorales et modifications correlatives, and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lie utenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I am pleased to table the bill as well as the message from the Lieutenant Governor. Motion agreed to. Billl5-- The Dutch Elm Disease Act Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs.

Vodrey), that leave be given to introduce Bill 15 , The Dutch Elm Disease Act (Loi sur Ia thyllose parasitaire de l'orme), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I am tabling his message as well. Motion agreed to. Bi11 16-- The Water Resources Administration Amendment Act Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr.

Derkach), that leave be given to introduce Bill 16, The Water Resources Administration Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'amenagement hydraulique), and the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I am tabling his message. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon sixteen Grade 11 students from Shaftesbury High under the direction of Mr. Steve Peers. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Waiting Lists Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). We have raised the issue of waiting lists before, and the government has only in the past announced a pre-election funding of money to deal with the waiting lists for tests and the waiting lists for procedures here in the province of Manitoba, and this was prior to 1995.

Since that, we have been getting calls from our constituents, calls from Manitobans dealing with the long waiting lists in the province of Manitoba, and a lot of them are a result of the cutbacks made by the Filmon government, the government opposite, and the resulting lack of operating staff for our needed procedures and diagnostic equipment here in the province.

I would like to ask the Premier: will he have a long term systemic program to deal with waiting lists here in the province of Manitoba, or are we going to just have some more short-term announcements in a pre-election way to deal with this really tragic situation for many Manitoba families?

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 263 Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, I would think we agree on both sides of the House that where waiting lists for any procedures in our health care system get to be longer than what would be medically acceptable or certainly are longer than what would be viewed as a convenient wait, that it is a tragedy and it has to be addressed.

One of the fundamental issues in addressing waiting lists, I would suggest to the Leader of the Opposition, has been often the way in which we organize the system, not even in terms of the funding for it but the organization of it, and having the Winnipeg Hospital Authority in place has given us a vehicle to be able to co-ordi nate our variety of programming, particularly diagnostics, and reduce waiting lists in a much more effective manner.

We have made some announcements to date; we have others that are coming very shortly as we work out some details, and our goal that we share with him is eliminating these waiting lists on a long term basis, just not on a short-term one. * (135 0) Mr. Doer: I am surprised the Minister of Health is so critical of the Premier who has been in charge of the organization of the Department of Health for the last eight or nine years.

I am surprised that he could be so critical of the Premier who has had three ministers of Health and has been in charge of this so-called lack of organization that has just been spoken of by the Minister of Health. In fact, they promised a reorganization in '92, '93, '94, a short-term election announcement in '95, and, again, waiting list after waiting list. I would like to ask the-[inter jection] Well, if the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), the Ed McMahon of this Chamber, would like to be quiet, perhaps I could pose my question. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): can he explain to me and Mr.

Yakel, a constituent in the Elmwood community, why he was told in May of'97 that he would have to wait until May of 1998 to have cataract surgery that is absolutely essential for him to have? Can the Premier answer why this Mr. Yakel has to wait one year for this procedure? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, these are very, very serious matters, and it is very easy for the Leader of the Opposition to get up and say the comments he did.

This Premier and this government have been very dedicated in 10 years to making fundamental change in our system, and every step of the way that we have attempted to bring about major reform when various interests within the system have opposed that, often for their own particular viewpoint, because it might affect the way in which they operate within the system, members opposite, and, by the way, not always the critic, but members opposite, in particular the Leader of the Opposition, have always been there to take their side.

In fact on many occasions, if we had followed what the Leader of the Opposition had suggested, our system would be in a terrible state with no hope of correction. If the Leader of the Opposition would like to provide the details of that particular matter to my office, I would be delighted to look into it. As the member may know, often the priorities on surgery, Madam Speaker, are determined by the physicians themselves. We would be very happy to look into that matter for the Leader of the Opposition. Health Care System Kidney Dialysis Waiting List Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, Marion Hofley of Winnipeg is a dialysis patient, or was a dialysis patient, at the St. Boniface Hospital, where she received excellent care. I would like to ask the Minister of Health why it is that she is now being forced to go by taxi three times a week to Morden for dialysis. How can this government justify their ineptitude in not planning ahead and not providing adequate dialysis facilities, and spending $1 ,000 a week on taxi fare to send patients from Winnipeg to Morden for dialysis?

What is this minister going to do to cut down this waiting list and help this senior citizen who is facing great hardships? She leaves after three o'clock every day, gets back after midnight, and she is facing dialysis for the rest of her lif e. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I will tell the member exactly why that in fact happens and what we are doing to correct that, because

264 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 I do not find that an acceptable situation either as Minister of Health. First of all, for one thing, the number of dialysis patients continues to increase annually by approximately 8 percent, so we have had a growing pressure on our system.

Secondly, within our system, Madam Speaker, one of its, I think, shortcomings, from the point of view of the question from the member for Burrows, is that in fact all new patients coming on the system, as I understand it from my inquiries, are required to be dealt with first in the Winnipeg system, which puts additional pressure on them before they can move out. So the difficulty has been, as we have had an increase in dialysis patients, we have had to ask Winnipeg residents to go to rural stations to give us some manoeuvring room within the system.

However, Madam Speaker, I, like members opposite and members on this side of the House, have asked questions about how we in fact organize this system, because we are continually putting more money into it- some $700,000 for a new program in the Interlake. I have asked the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to take over this particular program for the province, and they are developing the plans to do so currently. * (1 355) Health Care System Hip/Knee Replacement Waiting List Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, because oflong waiting lists in this province, many seniors are suffering unnecessary pain. Mrs.

Winnie Russenholt of Minitonas suffers from arthritis and as a result had to have a knee replaced. She had to wait two years until she finally got her operation, in October of '96, in Yorkton, Saskatchewan. She now needs her other knee replaced. Will the minister agree that this is unacceptable to have people waiting two years for knee and hip replacements, and will he ensure that Mrs. Russenholt and others will not have to wait for two years for this kind of surgery? Will he agree not to play politics or election promises with this but have it addressed immediately? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we just took steps in reorganizing our system within Winnipeg where with a declining number of births, from 13, 000 down to 10 ,000, we managed to save by changing a function at Grace Hospital, which members of the New Democratic Party, the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk), opposed. They opposed that change. It allows us to add this year alone an additional 18 0- plus procedures, exactly for the kind of person, exactly for the kind of constituent that the member for Swan River is talking about.

We moved money from obstetrics into orthopedic surgery, hips and knees, at the Grace, and next year will save us $1. 8 million by making that change that allows us to increase the program even further, but let the public remember that members of the New Democratic Party urged me not to make that change, Madam Speaker, or any change. Health Care System Ultrasound Waiting List Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, my constituent Mike Lawrence, who has been calling the Minister of Health's office on behalf of his grandmother, has endured with her two hip surgeries due to falls she survived when she had mild strokes, strokes that went undiagnosed for over a year because what she really needed was an ultrasound to determine the extent of what was causing the strokes.

I want to ask the Minister of Health: how can he explain to Mike Lawrence and his grandmother, who has endured two unnecessary hip surgeries, why she could not get an ultrasound in a timely basis and why she would have to go to Grafton, North Dakota, to pay for this service rather than having it in her home community? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, two points to be made: first of all, anytime there is a need for an emergent diagnostic procedure that, in fact, takes place, the doctor can arrange it. If it is not emergent-the doctors currently control that system.

Now, in fairness to everyone in this system, as long as we have continued to have our diagnostics controlled by a number of institutions throughout Winnipeg without good co-ordination, we are not

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 265 getting the best use out of that system in my view, and that is why, with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority-! have asked them to develop the plan, which they are doing, to take over diagnostic services eventually, to streamline that operation and get best use of our resources. But let us remember one thing when it comes to hip and knee replacement. The move we did to add additional capacity in our system was opposed by her party. Riverview Health Centre Waiting List Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Dorothy Webster, formerly of Fred Tipping Place in Riverview and a woman living with Alzheimer's was panelled for care in the fall of 1996 and quite understandably wanted to move to the Riverview Health Centre. Her family was told in 1996, in the fall, that there was a one-year waiting list. In spring, Mrs. Webster moved to Central Park Lodge on the understanding that her position on the waiting list at Riverview would not be compromised. In the fall of 1997, her family was again told there was a year's waiting list. The more things change, the more they stay the same, Madam Speaker.

I want to ask the minister today if he plans to wait until the next election, as his party has done before, until he takes action on the waiting list at Riverview Health Centre, which according to the Riverview Health News opened a state-of-the-art facility on May 27. I would be happy to share the publication with the minister if he does not know about it. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, is the member for Osborne asking me as Minister of Health to actually make the determination of which citizens go into which facilities?

This government invested significant money in rebuilding the Riverview Centre, removing the old municipals, replacing-that facility was there. I was part of the opening for that facility. It has added a state-of -the-art long-term care facility. We are currently working on other plans to be in the ground in some additional-! believe an additional 200 beds in the spring that was announced as part of our capital program earlier. We are looking at ways of expanding our long-term care facility.

But if the member opposite is asking me to intervene in waiting lists, to pick a specific match for people in a facility, that would be unfair ifi did that. * (1 400) Break and Enters Reduction Strategy Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Premier. Last week I raised the issue of a person's right to feel safe in their own home, and today I would pose the question to the Premier. Again, today we have an individual that is 91 years old that is in critical condition in one of our hospitals because he was brutally shoved down a flight of stairs, Madam Speaker.

In 1995, there were 5,84 1 home break-i ns. My question is to the Premier. Would he agree that, because of the number of break-ins, we have marginalized the seriousness ofthis crime, and now is the time in which we start getting more serious with the break- in problem epidemic throughout the province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I concur wholeheartedly with the member opposite that it is unacceptable for the kinds of crimes that we are seeing, particularly home break-ins.

I think the member knows that our government has been contributing an extra $2 million per year f or additional police officers, some 40 additional officers for the City of Winnipeg to help them combat crime and to try and address many of these issues. Regardless of what statistics tell us, even the most recent ones that suggest that crime rates are down and that the police are able to address this to a greater extent, it is still not acceptable that occurrences like this happen, and we certainly-! know the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Toews) will be looking very carefully at it and discussing with the various law enforcement agencies further measures to try and combat this type of crime. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Will he recognize that a total aggregate of nine months is what the average is for someone who breaks into a house, which means they could be out within weeks after breaking into a house-is in fact not an effective deterrent? Will he agree with that, and what actions, if he does agree with it, is he prepared to take?

266 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I am informed that the Criminal Code says that people can receive up to a life sentence for a break-in of this nature, a violent break in, and if the normal sentence averages nine months, then obviously that is something that we do not have a control over as a government. I believe that is a matter that should be pursued, and I believe the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Toews), in conjunction with his colleagues, expressed concern that there needs to be further action with respect to Ottawa with respect to dealing more harshly with these kinds of crimes. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, given the Premier's response, will he then instruct his Minister of Justice to aggressively pursue the issue within his department in terms of appeals, if need be, in order to ensure that the incarceration is in fact a valid way-us ing as a deterrent in order to try to address the whole issue of break- ins and particularly home invasions? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think the member is suggesting that the punishment ought better to fit the crime, and certainly I cannot disagree with him on it. I know that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) certainly concurs with that position. Health Care System Communication Disorders Waiting List Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): A question to the Premier, not unrelated to risk factors leading to crime.

A four-year-old constituent communicates mainly with gestures but was rejected from the Health Sciences Centre communication disorders program because by the time she would go to the top of the two-year waiting list of about 450 children, she would have to go to the bottom of the school division's waiting list, and her parents cannot pay up to $3,600 a year for the many uninsured private speech programs that the government's waiting list has now created. My question is to the Premier.

Why has his government rejected recommendations from I 0 years of reports and has instead insisted on two-tiered opportunities for life for children like this four-year- old who must now enter the school with higher costs and with the stigma of a communication disorder? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for St. Johns does bring a very serious issue to this House. It is one of which myself and my colleagues on the human services committee of cabinet are very much aware and appreciate that we have some work to do in overcoming some of those issues on co-ordination and resource.

We hope to be able to do that in the coming months-but it is a very serious issue. Health Care System Heart Surgery Waiting List Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, about a month ago, four weeks ago, I phoned the Minister of Health from The Pas to tell him about an individual from the reserve there about his problem of getting into the St. Boniface Hospital. This individual had travelled seven times to Winnipeg to get open-heart surgery, and seven times he was returned to The Pas because there was no bed for him at the hospital.

When I phoned the minister's office I was advised by his staff that they would phone the constituent right to his home to solve the problem. My question to the minister this afternoon is: what follow-up has his office taken since that call that I made to him about four or six weeks ago? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, the underlying issue with respect to heart surgery is they are- [interjection] Just if the member would give me the opportunity to finish and give him an answer-I would appreciate if the member would give me the opportunity to answer because this is a very serious question. We all have constituents who come to us from time to time who are waiting for heart surgery and are scheduled and are bumped. A lot of that has to do with where they rate on a priority list.

If an emergency happens where someone who is not in an emergent situation, their surgeon may be required to do an emergency heart surgery, and that results in the bumping. Seven times is a large number of bumpings; I do not argue with that fact whatsoever. Madam Speaker, the setting of that priority list is done by the physicians involved, if I understand it correctly. I do not interfere in that list, nor should I. One other-[inter jection] Well, the member asks why there is a waiting list.

It is because we have only so many surgeons, and if an emergency happens, those surgeons are required to perform surgery on someone who may just recently have undergone cardiac arrest or

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 267 is in an emergent situation. Someone who is an urgent may be bumped; that has always been the case with heart surgery, despite what the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) says from his seat. Health Care System Ultrasound Waiting List Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, today I raise the issues that were raised by Dr. Michael Bass, and I table the letter. On June 26, 1997, Dr. Michael Bass, who practises obstetrics and gynecology at the Health Sciences Centre, wrote to the Minister of Health.

In this letter he states that the waiting list for gynecological ultrasound is eight months and that for obstetrical ultrasound it is three months and that these waiting times are unacceptable. He predicts in the letter in June that Manitoba will lose quality physicians if they do not have the tools to do a proper job. Madam Speaker, my question to the minister: given that, despite Dr. Bass's letters and warnings, waiting lists have grown and that Manitoba has lost over 40 quality physicians, when will we see a comprehensive strategy to deal with this unacceptable situation which is the worst in Canada? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, many times in this House-and the member's question is a very valid one and a very serious question-we have discussed the fundamental issues that are here in place, why we have some of these difficulties. The work that my predecessor did, the member for Brandon West (Mr.

McCrae), in working through a plan to deal with those issues, which I now have the responsibility to implement, I think it is very clear that one of the fundamental reasons we have difficulties in many of our lists is because we have had up to nine institutions, each running its own field, making decisions and not always in a co-ordi nated manner. When I looked into issues like diagnostics, for example, I found a great divergence in the waiting list, I found the lack of a central ability to co-ordinate. These are things that were identified and also brought to my attention by the member for Brandon West.

Now we have that vehicle which is available to us in the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, and as one of the tasks that I have charged them with, that is, to look at running centrally our diagnostic system, they are in the process of putting together a detailed plan to do that, which I hope we can start giving effect to in the very near future. * (1410 ) Health Care System Waiting Lists Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, it was interesting the other week when the Premier gave his state of the province address, he did not spend very much time talking about the effects of nine and a half years of neglect of our health care system that has seen people like Mrs. Cadwell, a constituent of mine, waiting extensively for hip surgery, or Phyllis Laine [phonetic], a former constituent, who has been in the Seven Oaks Hospital since mid-May. Normally you are supposed to be in this particular ward for no more than 30 days, but on December 8, 1997, she is still waiting to get into a personal care home.

By the way, she was referred to the personal care home in Thompson, but there is no personal care home. I would like to ask: if the Premier (Mr. Film on) is not going to deal with that, will the minister admit, as he did last week on home care, that the real problem is that we have had nine and a half years of neglect and that the government's cutbacks in health care are now impacting on some very extensive waiting lists? They are affecting many individual Manitobans. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, it is with great regret that, while the member for Thompson sat on this side of the House in government, his party was unable to build a personal care home in Thompson and neglected the people of his community and have left it to us to work on that result. Members of the New Democratic Party cannot have it both ways. We on this side of the House, despite very tough budget times, like every other government in Canada, have had to deal with some tough issues over the last number of years.

We have still maintained significant funding for our health care system, each year increasing budgets. But what is most interesting about today is last week in this House we had members of the New Democratic

268 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 Party arguing strenuously that we should continue to overspend in our food system in our hospitals, that we should continue to subsidize restaurant food in our hospital cafeterias to $2.5 million and then now we should spend more money in different areas. You cannot have it both ways. Do you waste money subsidizing caf eteria meals like they would propose, or do you divert it over to where you need it? This party stands for diverting it. They want to spend it. I need those dollars to deliver health care. Health Care System Radiation Therapy Waiting List Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Is the minister aware that the internationally accepted standard for waiting time for radiation therapy is under four weeks and that Mr. Gordon Fidler from Cranberry Portage was forced to wait an incredibly stressful 14 weeks-9 8 days-b efore the first radiation treatment for his cancer could begin? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am not aware of the specifics, but I can tell you that we have announced-i f the member opposite is not aware, we, along with the Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, have committed to a $42-million new state-of -the-art facility that doubles our capacity. I understand they will be in the ground very early in the new year.

We also recently approved just short of an additional million dollars for that same facility so that they could recruit six additional oncologists and four additional technical associates, which they are in the process of doing currently. Part of their difficulty in meeting service is recruiting that additional personnel, but I want to assure Manitobans that the dollars necessary to do it have been approved and are in place, and they are in the process of recruiting the expertise that they need to continue to deliver the program to Manitobans on an increasing basis. Personal Care Homes Waiting Lists Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, while we are talking here, more than 500 elderly Manitobans, including Mrs. Beatrice Wirth, are sitting in hospital beds inappropriately waiting for placement in nursing homes. Beatrice Wirth has been in Victoria Hospital not since May of '97 but since May of '96, some 18 months, waiting for placement in Riverview or a Level 4 nursing home. Can the Minister of Health tell this House why any Manitoban should have to wait in the wrong place for 18 months to get an appropriate placement when she is suffering from a serious disease? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, waiting lists for personal care homes are not new. Being short of personal care home beds is not new. In fact, I remember when members opposite were in power, we had waiting lists and demand for personal care homes. The fact is with an aging population-[inter jection] Members opposite, if they are interested in more than subsidizing cafeterias, Madam Speaker, I would hope you would call them to order so they can hear the answer.

The fact of the matter is one of the changes in most of our hospitals is that we have actually made reorganizations of wards to accommodate people who are waiting when they could adjust programming for people who are long-term care patients who are waiting for placement. We have nearly 300 people in our Winnipeg hospital system today who are in that category. We have made changes in wards to be able to accommodate them, so the member opposite should not make it sound as if the person is being neglected. They are being cared for. Madam Speaker, we are very much committed.

We have, I believe, 200 beds that were committed in the last capital commitment in the spring. We are working on additional bed space, will be in the ground in some-and we will hope to continue to meet this need as best we can. Health Care System Sonogram Waiting List Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. Mr. Richard Epp from Selkirk has been told by his doctor that he may have to wait up to a year for a sonogram to help

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL YOF MANITOBA 269 determine the cause of a stroke he suffered in August of this year. My question is to the minister: what is he prepared to do to help Mr. Epp and others, and why will Mr. Epp have to wait for a year for this medical test? I am prepared to table a letter from Mr. Epp. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think I have addressed this in previous questions about-[inter jection] What we are doing in centralizing-[inter jection] Well, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), I would expect would know better.

One of the difficulties that my predecessor identified was the way in which we manage our health care system, that is, a minister. Ministers have very little direct control over the way in which the system operates. We have seen that over and over again. One of the benefits ofregionalization, which many members opposite have criticized and condemned, is it gives us the vehicle to be able to deliver services more efficiently. .

Madam Speaker, what I find so ironical about today IS members of the New Democratic Party have criticized this government in supporting changes within the system that save some $3 million a year on food services, prevent the loss of$2.5 million on subsidizing cafeteria food, dollars that we need to do exactly what they are asking for. So what is their choice? Subsidized- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Beauchesne's Citation 417 is very clear that "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Not only is the minister out of order, but this is the 12th question we have asked about the impact of close to I 0 years of neglect of our health care system, in this case a very specific question about a constituent of the member for Selkirk. I would like to ask, Madam Speaker, that you ask the Minister of Health to answer the very serious questions we are raising on behalf of Manitobans today.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health. on the same point of order. - Mr. Praznik: I was just simply pointing out that we need the savings in places like food services to pay for the care that members opposite are requesting. * (1 420) Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind the honourable Minister of Health that indeed he should keep his responses specific to the question asked and not provoke debate. Education System Educational Assessment Waiting List Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, children in some of Manitoba's public schools with suspected learning disabilities are having to wait a year or more for proper assessment, while their parents are being advised that they should take their son or daughter for a private assessment at approximately $1 ,200. I would like to ask the Minister of Education if she would table a report on education waiting lists in assessment across the province, and could she tell us what she thinks is an acceptable period of waiting for these children? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, if the member would be kind enough to provide me with the details of her allegations, I would be pleased to look into them for her. Saying "some people say" is not really giving me enough to go on, so if she can provide me with the details I would be pleased to provide the-look into the- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Ms.

Friesen: If you would direct the Minister of Education yet again to answer the question that I asked her, which was: would she prepare and table a report on the waiting lists in educational assessment across the province? Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education and Training, on the same point of order. Mrs. Mcintosh: With respect, the member in her question said that there were some people who had

270 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 some specific concerns, and I thought she had asked me to report to her on them, but without knowing what they are, it is hard to report. If she is looking for general information on waiting lists in assessments and so on, I would be pleased to provide her with-1 do not have a formal report, but we certainly do have a lot of information on early intervention, early identification, assessments, Level I, Level II, Level III. Those types of areas are known to us. Divisions report- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

May I deal with the point of order raised before the minister completes her response? Which I believe she has just done. Given that the minister now has responded to the point of order, I guess my only ruling is that there was no point of order, given she has now made the appropriate response. Health Care System Bone Density Scan Waiting List Mr.

George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, in September of this year, the government announced that $76,500 would be spent to make more staff available to operate bone density testing machines in order that patients on a two-year waiting list would receive tests before Christmas. On September 26, the Minister of Health was quoted in the Winnipeg Sun as stating: once we have cleaned out the backlog, it will enable us not to create a new one.

Madam Speaker, the money has since been spent, additional staffing for machines has since been reduced, and we have learned that once again there are several hundred patients on a new waiting list for bone density tests. When will the minister stop implementing patchwork solutions, and develop a comprehensive waiting-list strategy? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I understand some of the last patients on the Manitoba Clinic side will be receiving their bone density scan within days or very, very shortly in Manitoba.

We have managed to eliminate that part of the list, and we want to ensure that we do not have another list grow. That is certainly unacceptable. We are doing two things: first of all, the protocol on use is in the process of being finalized, because obviously there are some people for whom this is a good thing to do, others it is not. So that is being developed. Secondly, the resources are being identified to be able to carry on, on a far better basis than we have in the past.

Madam Speaker, let us not forget that when we first looked at this, one of our initial proposals was for nearly $450,000 that would have eliminated the list by June of next year, and by doing some looking around and being innovative, we did it for $76,000 and got it done by Christmas. So I do not always accept what comes out of the system as being the route to go. Health Care System CAT Scan Waiting List Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, in our province, there are a number of people in pain, represented by Miss N, who is a 57-year-old woman having a lower-back and leg problem.

She is still working, and somehow she managed to have a CAT scan arranged for her, but it will not happen until April 22, 1998. Can the honourable minister tell me what to tell this woman in case she cannot work any more because of persistent back pain? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think the member should tell her that it is important that we have the resources.

First of all, we are making the change in how we have organized the system so that we get the best use of our equipment, use it at the maximum amount of time, and have a central co-or dination, and if we need to have additional financial resources, it is sometimes a matter of prioritizing. I am not trying to play politics with this at all, but when members opposite come to this House and they say to us we should continue to spend money on areas of health care that buy no health value when we do not have to, it takes dollars right out of the areas where we need the care.

The member for Broadway should know that by making those choices, he is saying to that lady that it is more important, and I do not mean to make

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 27 1 light of it, but more important to have a subsidized meal * (14 30) in a cafeteria than have dollars available for those additional resources. That is not where we stand, Madam Speaker. Betaseron Coverage Approval Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. One of my constituents, Mrs. Vema Hryhorchuk, along with hundreds of people in the province who suffer with multiple sclerosis, could be helped by taking Betaseron or its companion drug, Copaxone.

When we first raised this question with this government, the then Minister of Health indicated he would not want any bureaucratic delays. Will the Minister of Health tell us why his government continues to hide behind this bureaucracy and why people who need this drug are continuing to wait for coverage? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I may have missed when the member for the Interlake garnered his M.D., but the committee that reviews these drugs and their effectiveness recommended to me that we not accept it.

So, if the member is suggesting that I move very quickly to accept their recommendation and not deal with it, then that is fine. But what I did say at that time and after meeting with them and the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), who I must compliment has worked on this issue with me, I think who appreciates the difficulty of this issue, we both recognized that there was other additional information. I have some questions about the process by which information came to that committee. I am pleased to report that I have met with that committee.

We have discussed some ways of improving that process, and I have asked them to take another look at this, including ensuring that those people who have been researching on the product here, I think at the MS clinic-I look to the member for Kildonan who was part of that meeting-also have an opportunity to put their findings to that same committee, and I will await their next consideration of this particular product. Health Care System Waiting Lists Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, is it not funny after nine and a half years of Tory mismanagement of health the government is still choosing to blame the previous government for its difficulty? The same government talks about $2.5 million in expenditures in cafeterias, many of which have been privatized, and yet they are spending $10 0 million on SmartHealth. They wasted over $5 million on Connie Curran. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) said they were going to save $1 0 million on home care. That is where the money went-in Tory mismanagement of our health care resources, which is why we have the waiting list.

My question is: why did the previous Minister of Health have $500,000 to reduce waiting lists a month before the last election and reduce waiting lists on hip and knee replacements, CAT scans, ultrasounds and MRis, and this government has done nothing for two years while the lists that we indicated today have grown and grown and grown, much to the hardship of Manitobans, every one of whom we represent, waiting on long waiting lists? How dare they do that? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): How can members opposite come with that kind of indignation when they oppose almost every change that is needed to make the system run better? Madam Speaker, when we talked about taking money out of a program at the Grace in obstetrics that we did not need and putting it into hips and knees, the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) opposed it. When we come forward to try to get a better operating of our food system to free up dollars to put it into those areas, members opposite oppose it.

They want everything for everybody, but the one thing they cannot do is run government or a health care system. They cannot deliver. Every change that is needed for the future that we stand for they oppose. They want better diagnostics. You need an information system to be able to co-ordina te that. They oppose it.

272 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 This government is very much committed to health care. We have expanded in area after area, but one thing is for certain, we will always put money for health rather than subsidize caf eterias any day of the week. Health Care System Angiogram Waiting List Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Dauphin, with one very short question. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my constituent Ken McCartney from Dauphin has been waiting and still is waiting for an angiogram. Why will this Minister of Health not help him? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the priority on those procedures is dealt with by the physicians. [interjection] You know, I am not a physician- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Health, to quickly complete his response. Mr. Praznik: There is not a health care system in Canada where anyone who requests heart surgery today gets it tomorrow, unless it is an emergency. There is not a province where that happens.

You know it is almost-it is sad to raise the expectation to people out there who watch this on their televisions that that is ever possible. Heart surgeries are done on a priority list. The doctors involved set those priorities on the needs ofthe patients. If the member would really like to help his constituent, he should make sure that that constituent updates his physician on his need. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker 's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have four rulings for the House.

On March 5, 1997, during debate of the Speech from the Throne, a point of order was raised by the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon) with respect to words spoken by the Leader of the of ficial opposition (Mr. Doer) in debate. The words in question were "I think the Premier going to community meetings and saying that teachers are overpaid by 20 percent and underworked is an absolute disgrace." The Premier, in raising the point of order, denied that he had made such a remark. The First Minister did not have a point of order.

A point of order is a question raised to call attention to any departure from the rules or from the customary modes of proceeding in debate. A dispute arising between two members as to allegations of fact is not a point of order. During Question Period on March 5, 1997, the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton) raised a point of order about my caution on the use of the phrase "will the Premier finally tell the truth." In raising the point of order, the opposition House leader made reference to Beauchesne Citation 490 stating that the phrase "not telling the truth" had been ruled as being parliamentary.

In speaking to the point of order, the government House leader (Mr. McCrae) indicated that the context of the word, rather the inclusion of a word on a list, governed the acceptability of language. This point is made in Beauchesne Citation 49 1. I would draw to the attention of the House that Speaker Rocan on seven occasions ruled out of order variations of the phrase "not telling the truth." Further, I would observe that on March 5 I had not asked the phrase "will the Premier finally tell the truth" be withdrawn; I had asked that discretion in the choice of words be exercised.

However, as the opposition House leader had, in his point of order, asked whether the phrase, as he used it on March 5, 1997, was parliamentary, I would have to rule that strictly speaking it was unparliamentary. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I assume from your ruling-and I do not recall the circumstances--did occur back on March 5-that you had indicated that it was unparliamentary. Is that- Madam Speaker : That is correct. Mr. Ashton: That is the case; I am glad. I am receiving some advice on the rules from the Premier

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 273 (Mr. Filmon), who certainly is an expert on unparliamentary phrases. I was wondering-and it is difficult, once again, not remembering the circumstances because it was such a lengthy time ago, at the beginning of the last session, but that being the case, if it was unparliamentary, are you not requesting a withdrawal of the statement? Madam Speaker: I am not requesting- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

I am not requesting withdrawal at this time because I had dealt with it initially, but it was then again challenged by the opposition House leader on a point of order. I had specifically then cautioned, said that we had not accepted the use of that word on several previous occasions, but I had asked him to please use, or yourself! guess, to use discretion in the choice of your words. Do you all have a copy of the ruling from March 7? Order, please. I am ruling on a point of order I took under advisement on March 7 during Question Period about an answer to a question given by the First Minister.

The question from the Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) was about funding to the Manitoba Metis Federation. In his reply, the Premier spoke about job creation in Manitoba. The member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) raised a point of order about the content of the reply.Having reviewed Hansard, I have concluded that there was a point of order. As Beauchesne Citation 417 states: answers to questions should deal with the matter raised. I would ask the First Minister, when replying to questions, to relate directly to the issue in the question asked of him.

I took under advisement a point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey) on March 30 during debate of the budget motion with respect to words used by the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford). The words in question were "the big lie." In looking at Hansard, the complete sentence read: "This argument of cutting now to protect future generations is simply at best nonsense and at worse doublespeak or, as I believe my colleague from Wolseley christened it the other night, the big lie." Past precedents of this House were reviewed.

In 1991, Speaker Rocan twice ruled in order the term "one big lie," noting that the phrase was not targeted at an individual. On October 28, 1996, I cautioned a member on the use of the words "You know what the ultimate big lie in this MTS Answers document," but did not rule the phrase as being unparliamentary. Also, as the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) correctly pointed out, the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) used the term more than once in her speech about the budget this session and no intervention occurred.

Given the precedents and given the context in which the words were used by the member for Osborne, I am ruling that there was no point of order. On March 24, 1997, I took under advisement a point of order raised by the Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) respecting words spoken by the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) during Question Period. In raising the point of order, the Leader of the official opposition asserted that the Minister of Health had imputed unworthy motives to the respiratory therapists of Manitoba.

I have reviewed Hansard to ascertain the context in which the words were spoken. The words in question were: "What I would suggest we have here is a lot of people with their own particular piece of interest in this area pursuing it and if that were the case we would never make any decisions in government." * (1 440) Beauchesne Citations 48 1(

e) and 484(3) deal with imputation of motives, but both contemplate comments made by one member about another member; these citations do not address comments made by a member about persons outside the House. Therefore, the Leader of the official opposition did not have a point of order. However, I caution the minister that care should be taken by members of this House when speaking of persons or groups outside this House.

274 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 Speaker's Statement Madam Speaker: I have a statement. On November 21, 1996, the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) raised a point of order concerning words she attributed to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) regarding the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale). The Premier has now on the record unequivocally withdrawn the words. The matter is therefore concluded. Point of Order Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Excuse me, Madam Speaker.

I will allow our House leader to deal with this, but given the fact that you were asked to make a ruling, are we not going to get a ruling, or is it not the precedent for the Speaker to make a ruling? The matter is a year and a half or two years old. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I think any review of the history of these types of matters in the House where a phrase or a word objected to and argued about is withdrawn, that traditionally has been the end of the matter.

I believe that has been handled that way in this case, and I believe that is the appropriate way that it should be handled. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On the point of order, Madam Speaker, and I think the government House leader used the right term in discussing this when he talked about history, because unfortunately this matter languished for more than a year. The apology, the so-called apology that was received from the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) was made when we complained that a ruling had not been made on a matter of privilege that had been raised, not only one year, one calendar year, but two sessions previously. I would note, by the way, on the record that the First Minister did not apologize until we raised it again in the House more than a year and two sessions afterwards.

I think if you were to be making any ruling on this particular matter, including on whether the First Minister had given a sincere and honest withdrawal and apology on this matter, that it should have been done in the form of a ruling, and I would like to note on the record that ruling should have been brought in this House a Jot earlier than today, December 8, more than a full year after we raised a matter of privilege in this House.

A matter of privilege should always be dealt with, not only by members at the first opportunity, but I believe in terms of rulings, you should have brought in a ruling a lot earlier, and the Premier should have apologized in the first place more than a year ago. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the official opposition does not have a point of order. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Hockey Exchange Program Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, last evening my wife, Dora, and I, in the company of the honourable Government Services minister (Mr.

Pitura) and his wife, Evelyn, had the pleasure of attending a banquet in Morris. The event was in honour of an exchange program between the Morris and St. Jean Baptiste hockey teams and the La Baie, Quebec, 14- and-under hockey team under the direction and supervision of Denis Desmarais [phonetic] . As part of the exchange program, a young team of Francophone hockey players from La Baie, Quebec, and their chaperones have had an opportunity to visit Manitoba. After arriving in Manitoba last Thursday, they were billeted with host families in Morris and St. Jean.

In addition to playing hockey, La Baie players have taken

part in a wide variety of activities. They visited Morris schools, St. Jean Baptiste schools and the Lowe Farm school. They attended a Manitoba Moose hockey game and also saw the Canadian women's Olympic hockey team take on the American team at the Winnipeg Arena. They had an opportunity to view the flood video Red River Raging and today will visit the flood gates at Winnipeg. This young team is also, as most of you know, from a town that experienced a disastrous flood in the same year that we did, and they found the devastation that we incurred very similar to theirs, although theirs might

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 275 have been even a bit more traumatic when whole homes were swept away. Today these players are also visiting a number of rural businesses, providing them with the exposure to a strong agricultural Manitoba community. Their visit will also include stops at Roy Legumex Inc., special crops contractors in St. Jean, as well as tours of the Paterson elevator company at Morris and Westfield Industries in Rosenort. We welcome these young hockey players. We know that our teams out of Morris and St.

Jean Baptiste, when they travel to La Baie, will be afforded the same welcome as we afforded these youngsters. Health Care System Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, earlier today we saw an example of just how much our health care system has deteriorated in this province. We saw case after case after case of people who are facing unacceptable waiting lists for surgery and other procedures. What I found interesting was the fact that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) blamed everyone except the government.

He kept trying to blame the previous government, but I point out for the record that not only the previous government but the previous, previous government as well. Maybe after nine and a half years it is time for them to be put on the opposition benches and put in a government, an NDP government, that can rebuild our health care system. I would like to stress the degree to which we face shortages. I made reference to a situation in my own community that people had problems with referrals, in particular a need for a personal care home in our community.

By the way, for the Minister of Health, I was proud to be part of the NDP government that brought in the first seniors' centre, was instrumental in bringing that into Thompson, and quite frankly, I would say, after nine and a half years of this government, we should be looking at a personal care home in our region in northern Manitoba.

But the bottom line is after close to 10 years of Conservative government, you will not hear the Premier talking in his state-of -the-province address about our health care system because you ask one simple question to Manitobans today, after nine and a half years of Tory cutbacks, you know what answer you will get if you ask them: are you better off in terms of your health care today, Madam Speaker? The answer is no. If you ask them: all right, do you have a better education system today, the answer is no.

If you go even further and ask them about our economic circumstances, ask them if their children have better opportunities today than they had nine and a half years ago, the answer again is no. We have seen close to 10 years of failure on behalf of this government. I say this government is out of touch. It is time to move on, and we look forward to the next election when we will bring in true health care reform in this province. Operation Red Nose Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Madam Speaker, I would like to invite my honourable colleagues and friends to volunteer for Operation Red Nose this year.

It is in its third year of operation. For those of you who are unaware of Operation Red Nose, it is a volunteer effort that provides free rides for people who have had too much to drink and cannot drive home during the holiday season. They will not only drive you home, but they will drive your car home. Last year, this service was available in the cities of Brandon and Winnipeg, and we would like to welcome this year The Pas in their efforts in 1997. There is no formal fee for the

schedule for this service. However, a donation is encouraged to the Manta swim club in Winnipeg or the Kiwanis Club in Brandon. Last year approximately $13, 000 was raised in Winnipeg and $5,000 was raised in Brandon. The Pas will be raising funds for the Rotary Club this year. In 1996, there was a total of 1, 709 people driven home in Winnipeg and Brandon. With the growing awareness of this program, I am sure that the numbers of passengers will increase.

I would like to applaud the efforts of the 200 Brandon volunteers and 300 Winnipeg volunteers who gave their help to stop drinking and driving. * (14 50) We are not expecting people to refrain from drinking over the holiday season. We are saying: if you drink, do not drive. Since the introduction of Operation Red

276 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 Nose in 1995, there has not been one fatality due to impaired driving on the nights this service was offered. Together, MPIC and the local community organization are educating the people of our province that drinking and driving do not mix. If we can educate Manitobans that drinking and driving is a fatal combination, then there is hope that one day there will not be an impaired driver on our streets. So, Madam Speaker, if we must drink, call Operation Red Nose, and they will get us home safely. Thank you. Occup ational Health Centre Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, last week we made public in this House the fact that many families have waited as much as 12 years to receive benefits from the Workers Compensation system, and 10 more families still await benefits from the deaths of their spouses because of pancreatic cancer. Had it not been for the efforts, the very strong efforts of the Occupational Health Centre, a very important project of the Manitoba Federation of Labour and of this previous government which we put in place, then this case would never even have begun to go to appeal. Had it not been for the very fine efforts of Dr.

Anna Lee Y assi to find funding not from the Workers Compensation Board but from other sources to undertake a very careful epidemiological study, had it not been for her professionalism and her skill, the science needed to finally prove the linkage would never have been undertaken. Had it not been for the very good efforts of the worker advisors in this case, and particularly August Bairos, who was the advisor who carried the case to the medical review panel after a great deal of effort, this would never have resulted in benefits for these families.

Let it not be thought that this is the Workers Compensation Board working well. This was the Occupational Health Centre; this was Dr. Anna-Lee Y assi; this was the worker advisors doing their utmost to appeal to a board which had received the wrong advice and had used the wrong act and the wrong criteria to turn down these widows incorrectly. It was only after a great deal of effort on the part of worker advisors, Dr. Yassi, the Occupational Health Centre and the widows and families themselves who continued for years to be the advocates for their own cause, that they finally got justice, Madam Speaker. R.W.

Bobby Bend School Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, this past Friday, along with the Premier, the Honourable Gary Filmon, and also the Honourable Linda Mcintosh, the Minister of Education, I had the opportunity to attend the official opening of the R.W. Bobby Bend School in Stonewall. The addition to the R.W. Bobby Bend School is quite impressive and will benefit the nearly 500 students, teachers and staff there. The expansion includes four new classrooms. This has allowed the school to add an extra grade, Grade 4, which is in keeping with the philosophy of the early years education.

The addition of the Bobby Bend School also involves a new library, so students will no longer have to use a converted classroom as their library. Also, the creation of a multipurpose room frees up more room for special programs such as the choir. There is also expanded room and a quieter space for special needs children. Over the past few years we have seen an increase in the numbers of students in the Gimli constituency, especially in the Interlake school division.

There has been an impressive amount of expansion in the Stonewall area, and as more and more families move into this region and enjoy all that this vibrant community has to of fer, Stonewall and area residents have a great deal of respect for the value of education, and I know they will benefit from these expanded facilities. So I would like just to take this opportunity to once again congratulate the students, teachers and staffofthe R.W. Bobby Bend School and to wish them much success in their newly expanded school. Thank you.

ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Seventh Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) and the proposed motion of the

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 277 honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for Inkster who has 35 minutes remaining. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, as I had indicated on Friday prior to leaving the Chamber, I said that I was going to give a great deal of thought in terms of exactly what it was that I would be saying today and, in fact, that great deal of thought ended up being more so a few hours.

Madam Speaker, I have always in the past voted against the throne speech and against the government budget, and I believe it is only me and the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) that have done that since we were first elected back in 19 88. I believe in the past that I have justified that by indicating that there is an obligation on members of opposition to provide constructive opposition to government.

Even though in any given throne speech there are a number of positives and equally there are a number of negatives, I have always been of the opinion that as long as I believe the party in which I belong to is able to provide a better alternative that in fact it is my responsibility, at least in part, to vote against the throne speech, to vote against the budget, and then provide some sort of an idea as to why it is I voted that way and to share my thoughts and my voting pattern, if you like, with my constituents, the individuals whom I represent, first and foremost, inside this Chamber.

So when I was trying as well as I could to get some sort of an assessment of a current situation which was proving to be most awkward, something in which I had not experienced in my previous nine and a half years inside our party, what I have found is that over the weekend a number of questions that I had on Friday were in fact answered, and I do believe that the opportunity still is there for the provincial Liberal Party to provide a viable alternative to the government of the day.

As a member of the Liberal Party caucus, what I would like to be able to do is to address some of the concerns and also give some credit where I believe the government has done well. What I did is, because of the somewhat limited time I am going to be able to speak today, came up with five or six points which I am hoping to cover. The first one I wanted to touch upon was the one of the Constitution, primarily because I do know that there are going to be discussions over the next while, there are going to be public hearings and so forth.

It is an issue in which I believe that I have been fairly involved in trying to get a better understanding so that I can better represent my constituents, and also to try to provide that constructive criticism to the government. The issue on which I want to focus in the whole area of constitutional reform is to emphasize to the government, to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in particular, that we should not lose focus that in any sort of constitutional round of debates there has to be a give and-take on both sides.

The concern that I have always had in the past has been that it has been very one-sided, where we have seen provincial governments make their demands and the federal government, at least in the past, appears to be giving in to those demands in order to achieve some sort of a constitutional package. That has not worked, Madam Speaker. What I am hoping to see, in particular from this Premier, because this Premier is in fact the dean of the premiers across the country-and there is some expectation, Madam Speaker-is that he will take a leading role in some of those constitutional discussions.

I would emphasize the importance of programs such as the health care in particular so that, when the Premier goes and has these discussions, we recognize that there are programs in which the federal government must continue to have a very significant role. Having said that, Madam Speaker, because I know that there is going to be public hearings across the province, I do want to remain somewhat open-minded on it at least until Manitobans have had their opportunity to have a say in the form of a report, in which my colleague from St. Boniface represents both me and the member for The Maples (Mr.

Kowalski), and has done exceptionally well in doing ju st that. Madam Speaker, when I look at some of the positive things that the government has done, one of the biggest highlights no doubt would in fact be the hog industry in the sense of its expansion. Recently, we have heard the expansion of a plant which will bring in somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,200 jobs. I think it is a fantastic opportunity for the community of Brandon,

278 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 and I would applaud all those individuals that were involved in making that project happen, because, as a direct result, what we will see is more prosperity for the Brandon community. I think that is something that is long, long overdue, but I would be remiss if I did not express some of the concerns. * (1 500) One of the reasons why we have been able to accommodate that sort of expansion is some of the policies that were decided from the government 16 months, 18 months ago. That is when they started to move towards that vertical integration, for example.

If you talked to the hog producers back then, the hog producers were exceptionally upset with the government because they were not consulted in a manner in which they felt was appropriate. I did get the opportunity to meet with dozens of hog producers; they were very upset and felt that in fact they were not consulted at all. The primary concern, of course, is that we do not lose the opportunity for the small hog producer, that that still be allowed to continue in some form into the future. We will watch very closely in terms of what the government is doing to ensure that that does in fact remain.

Of course, when I talk about the economy and I think of the hog industry, the other industry that has grown exceptionally huge in the province of Manitoba is that of, and this is more of a critique, the gambling industry. I can recall that, when I was first elected, we saw the Crystal Casino brought in, Madam Speaker. When we brought in the Crystal Casino, the argument then was that the proceeds would go towards health care. Then we brought in the rural VL Ts and the argument for that was that those monies would be used for rural economic development.

Then it was made wide-open where we saw our two huge bingo palaces on McPhillips and Regent. Then we saw VLTs scattered throughout the city, and today we have VL Ts in every corner of the province. What I would like the government to recognize is the fact that there really has not been any debate inside the Chamber, legitimate debate for a responsible gambling policy-[interj ection] The member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) tries to make reference to my own position on gambling, and I believe that back in '93, I did take a very responsible approach to gambling, one that was more based on tourism as opposed to cash generation. I hope today that we will recognize the need to start talking about some of the negative social costs that the gaming policy has had on the province. I have had a note passed to me from the former Speaker about three casinos. You know, when I look at those particular casinos, one of them that I was talking about was in Gull Harbour.

Gull Harbour is a provincial resort that is losing tax dollars and if, in fact, you were to have some sort of a casino operation in a limited way located out there, Madam Speaker, I believe that makes a heck of a lot more sense than having it, let us say, across the street from high schools or in every corner that we have through the province. At Gull Harbour it is more, as I say, of a tourism way to expand on the attraction of gambling as a tourist type of thing. Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair The other issues that I was wanting to talk about, one being health care, you know, the government has shown that it can respond to opposition criticisms and public opinion. I was glad to see that the government has retracted on two very significant policies that would have had a devastating impact for the province of Manitoba; one in particular for the north end residents of Winnipeg, that being the Seven Oaks Hospital, and common sense prevailed.

The former Minister of Health recognized that, and we still have the Seven Oaks Hospital today, because, I believe, the government at times has shown that they are listening. The other issue, of course, is that of home care services, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Again, we pleaded in opposition. The public pleaded with the government to stay with a nonprofit publicly administered home care services.

This is one of the areas in which I would like to see more coming down from Ottawa in terms of direction and financial assistance to ensure that we do have, again, some national standards on something in which not only Manitobans but all Canadians feel very, very passionate about. There are still areas within health care that I believe that the government needs to look at to change policy. I look at issues such as public labs versus private

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 279 labs- I believe it is the province of Quebec where they have public labs-and you will find that the per capita cost is considerably less. I would ultimately argue that it is more in line with providing a one-tier system of health care which I think is in the best interest of all Manitobans, but the direction that the government is taking on that particular issue appears to be the one that favours additional privatization of these labs, and I find that to be a very serious mistake.

We have been very critical, in particular the New Democrats have been very critical towards the Connie Curran contract, and when I flash back to the Connie Curran contract, what comes to mind is the government's inability to work with some of those health care organizations and professionals in trying to invoke the changes. I like to think that one of the biggest differences that we have within the Liberal caucus is the fact that we do not fear the change.

We see change as a positive thing; it is just a question of how you manage that change, and the best way you manage that change, at least in most part, is that you have to work with people. I believe that the government has demonstrated by its actions that it has not been successful at working with people in the health care fields. So I hope that what we will see in time is more working with the people in trying to invoke or manage change so that it is accepted better and that in fact the change does and is in the public's best interest.

I then went to education, and when I think of education, this is an issue which I hold very close to my own heart, because I see education as windows of opportunities for future generations, and that public education should be there to challenge the abilities and skills of all children, no matter what level they might be at, whether they are learning disabled or the elite in terms of academics or the gifted, if I can use the word "gifted," student, that you have to be able to challenge all those abilities.

If in fact you do not have a progressive way of dealing with public education, we are going to continue to see young people falling through the cracks, and I would ultimately argue that the more that fall through that crack the more the costs to us are going to be in the future in terms of contribution towards the provincial product, to the social programs that are going to be potentially necessary because we did not address it in a more aggressive fashion. * (1510 ) I wanted to appeal to this Minister of Education on the issue of history. I know one of the former ministers, Mr.

Manness, did not seem to have a priority with the history, which I would have like to have seen. I still believe today that we do not get the type of history, enough Canadian history taught in our schools. If we go and we talk to some of those students that are there today and ask them some questions, you know, even our adult population, you know, there is one question that I have been kind of posing around the caucus and other individuals with respect to the Premier in the Province of Manitoba.

How many people realize that the first Prime Minister of our country's son was in fact a Premier here in the province of Manitoba? Whatever political stripe, what you will find is that very few, and I asked quite a few people, very few people actually even knew of it, even members of the Legislative Assembly, not wanting to mention names, but I would suggest to you that of the ones I have talked to about this, only one actually knew it.

I think that we have a responsibility to ensure that we have an understanding of what being a Canadian is all about, so I emphasize that we ensure that we do not lose sight of that and I would appeal to the current Minister of Education to give that issue very serious consideration. Mr. Depu ty Speaker, I want to talk about justice. Justice is something in which I believe, and I have had opportunity now twice since we have been back in session to bring up the issue, for example, of home invasions or break and enters.

I really believe that break and enter has been somewhat marginalized in terms of the seriousness of a crime. I find that is in fact unfortunate, where we have over 6,000 break and enters in any given year from what I understand. That would be in the entire province of Manitoba, not just the city of Winnipeg. This morning we heard about an individual senior, 91 years old, going down a flight of stairs. Last week I brought up a senior that I visited in Portage la Prairie that sleeps during the day, because she was harassed

280 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 and her home broken into late one evening. She bolts her doors shut. She is terrified to sleep at night. These are not infrequent events. They are happening far too often, and we need to do what we can to try to make people feel safe in their own home. I would argue, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that each and every one of us and every Manitoban has the right to feel safe in their home, and I do not believe we are doing enough to ensure that that right is in fact fulfilled. I am very pleased with the current minister's approach with youth ju stice committees.

I, over the years, have worked primarily because of my colleague for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), and I know other members, the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), I believe the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe), all of us have gotten into those youth justice committees and trying to be able to contribute. Mr. Deputy Speaker, through you, I would highly recommend that the current Minister of Justice (Mr.

Toews) continue on the track of trying to ensure that youth justice committees continue to expand in the province of Manitoba, and that we should do what we can to facilitate these committees to be able to contribute even more. I know a couple of years back, our committee, and maybe it was somewhat handled improperly, I will not necessarily reflect too much on that, but the idea of youth justice committees, for example, dealing with young offenders under the age of 12 .

I recognize that there would be a need for parental consent in order for that to occur, but what we have to do is we have to start dealing with kids under the age of 12 . When they are nine years old, eight years old, they know the difference between what is right and what is wrong. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we do need to start to intervene and assist at that earlier age. It is not appropriate that there is no consequence in most of those cases, because they happen to be of an age that is under what the Young Offenders Act requires.

To that end I too, like the government and I believe the members of the New Democratic Party, would like to see amendments to the Young Offenders Act. I would even be quite supportive of seeing a resolution inside this Chamber that would show that there is a united all-pa rty support for the need to make some of those modifications to the Young Offenders Act.

That is the reason why, at least in part, I introduced the resolution inside the Chamber, and hopefully it will get debated sometime this year, where we talk about having an all-pa rty task force of sorts to deal with issues like that where we do not necessarily have complete control, where we can lobby effectively together as a united Chamber to try to invoke changes at the national level. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I also wanted to be able to comment on the whole issue of our Crowns, the MTS and the way in which MTS was sold. I am talking about the pre-'95 campaign and MTS ultimately even being sold.

I am going to have to agree to disagree with the government in terms of what it has done, but I must emphasize that we still have one of our Crown jewels, that being our Hydro, and I would suggest to the government that there is a need for change in that area. The change that I would like to see, and I believe that in particular Winnipeggers would like to see, is that it makes no sense to have a Winnipeg Hydro and Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is no sense to it.

The province needs to sit down with the city people, work out some sort of a compensation, and, in fact, I would argue that there are many, many reasons why that makes sense, everything from Winnipeg Hydro's needs in the future in terms of capital dollars in order to keep their facilities operating to the way in which it is handled with the consumers, to the duplication that exists. That is some sort of changes that I believe are necessary.

But I would caution the government that both the New Democrats and the Liberals, I believe, are very concerned with what intentions you might have in the long term with Manitoba Hydro, and I will be looking and monitoring very closely, as many others will, in terms of exactly what the government does. Mr. Deputy Speaker, with those few words, I will, in fact, be voting consistent with the way in which I have voted in the past, and I thank you for the opportunity to speak. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am honoured indeed to be able to rise and speak again to a throne speech put

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 281 forward by this particular government. I continue to be amazed and overwhelmed by the degree with which this particular government has been able to continue turning this province around and bringing back the strength, bringing back the-[inter jection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Could I ask the honourable members who want to carry on a conversation to do so in the loge. Mrs.

Mcintosh: I appreciate that members do become fairly agitated when they feel that their record might be compared to the record of the government on this side of the House, and I can understand that. Just the other day, one day last week, the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) was asking about the state of the buildings at the University of Manitoba, for example, and the kinds of issues they raise underscore the decades of neglect this province received prior to us coming into office.

I would think that it should be self-evident, and I am also constantly amazed at how members opposite do not see the self-evidence of what they are asking when a woman stands up and asks why this government has not yet repaired some 30 years of decay and neglect. She fails to understand that had those repairs been done when they were needed originally in the '60s, '70s, '80s, we would not be faced now with the overwhelming problem that has been dumped upon us by governments like the one that sat before the Filmon administration. * (1 520) I say that, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, by way of an example to underscore for the people opposite that when we were in times of plenty and double-digit revenues were rolling in, somehow they were not able to address the problems that were germinating in our society, and somehow they let those problems come into full bloom. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the people then chose governments that would come in to try to clean up the mess that had been created, and governments right across this nation have been elected with the hopes that they could clean up the mess left by that kind of mentality that existed in those two decades, the '60s, '70s and '80s, when a mentality flourished of borrow, borrow, borrow, spend, spend, spend.

When all the debt came home to roost, when all the problems came home to roost, those governments that had been responsible for creating a situation that then got out of control and will take the better yet of two decades more to correct began howling somehow that the people called in to correct the problems they created were responsible for the problems they created. That is a fallacy that people do need to be reminded of.

In six short years of New Democratic reign in this province the New Democrats managed to create a society in Manitoba that in addition to the problems they did not address-they did not put a personal care home, for example, in Dauphin. They did not address the crumbling infrastructure at the University of Manitoba. They did not do a lot of other things as well. They did not put the money into women's shelters that should have been there that we put in. They did not do any of those things. Well, they started an airline which we are still paying $52 million for and nothing is left of it.

They did a number of things like that. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are now addressing technologies in health that did not even exist when they were in government, and they are saying that we need to expand them faster, which we could if we did not have the debt that they had racked up, which is a 30- year problem. They keep forgetting that the problems they created in six years will take us 30 years to correct. We are already partway through to correcting them, but we still have the better part of two decades left to undo the harm that they caused, they and others like them across this nation.

So I think they need to be wary of, they need to be reminded, particularly the new ones like the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) and the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), who are talking to each other and not paying attention, they need to be reminded that they were not here when their predecessors did what they did to this province. But they are here now and they could at least help us undo some of the damage that was done and put in corrective action. It takes much longer to put the toothpaste back in the tube than it does to squeeze it all out.

They squeezed out all the toothpaste and they are screaming at us because we are not getting it back in fast enough. They could get it out much faster than we could put it in, and we are now

282 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 putting back in a new, improved toothpaste than the garbage that they squeezed out. So I think they do need to remember from whence many of our problems came and the role that they played in it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, could you please call them to order. I cannot speak over this yelling today. My throat is too sore. I would ask that they please be quiet. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Could I ask the indulgence of the members, please, to keep it down to a low roar. This is not a kindergarten class, and I do not want to speak to you as such.

I also ask honourable members to allow a little bit of this to happen, because we are in some cases initiating this to happen. The honourable minister, to continue. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I appreciate that very much and I hope members will obey the Chair since they seem to feel that obeying the Chair is extremely important. At least they say they believe obeying the Chair is extremely important, so I trust they will now obey your dictum to not distract when someone has the floor.

Having indicated what I hope the members opposite will really try in their hearts to understand, that you can break something and it takes very little time to break it, it takes a much longer time to repair it once it is broken. [ inter jection] Mr. Depu ty Speaker, could you please call the members to order. I realize that this is something that maybe they do not wish to acknowledge, but I think in order to solve the problems together, it is necessary for them to acknowledge what has happened and what needs to happen to correct it. [interjection] Perhaps the member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) would like to make her speech now, since she is so consistently chattering from her chair. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Could I ask honourable members to put their comments through the Chair, and if we do not provoke debate, debate might not be as- An Honourable Member: As likely to take place. That is right. Mr. Deputy Speaker: As likely to flow across the floor. The honourable minister, to continue. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I do think it is important that together we can recognize our problems without seeing them as provoking debate or assessing blame. I place no blame.

I place no judgment. It is the way it was. As I said in my opening, provincial governments of every political stripe right across this country fell into the same trap that the New Democrats did here in the decade preceding this one. It was the mode and mentality of the times-the overborrowing, overspending, and getting provinces into problems. The federal government was doing the same thing. The current governments-plural-ac ross this nation have been elected to try to fix those problems created by a national mentality that was reflected in the mentality of the government. This is not a judgmental thing.

This is something we need to face together so that we can correct together, and it would be very helpful if it could be seen that way, rather than this overly defensive attitude that has the member for Wellington still rudely speaking from her desk instead of obeying. The members opposite who believe in obeying the Speaker, they say, do not reflect that in their actions. Witness their behaviour right now, disobeying the Speaker's ruling, and so the next time they stand to say they want the Speaker to be obeyed, I think they should remember what they are doing right now.

We have in the time that we have been in office done a number of things to bring this problem back into a corrective mode, and it takes a very long time. But despite the fact we have had a national recession-[inter jection] Mr. Deputy Speaker, could you please call the House to order so that I can speak and hear myself. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister has the floor at this time. The honourable minister, to continue.

December 8, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 283 Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I call to attention, for example, an

article that was in the Free Press just this weekend. One of the things we had said when we took office was that we believed it was necessary to create a strong economy, a strong economy that would then generate enough revenue to be able to sustain the essential systems-[inter jection] Point of Order Mrs. Mcintosh: A point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister, on a point of order. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am trying very hard to speak and be heard, and the member for Wellington, in particular, has not stopped chattering, even though you have admonished her on several occasions. I would ask on a point of order that she would follow the rules of this House, which are not to distract speakers when they have the floor and are trying to speak on something as important as the throne speech. Heckling from a seat, even if she is not in her own seat-which she is not- heckling from anywhere in the House while someone is trying to speak is against the rules of the House.

The fact that they are consistently broken still does not negate the fact that this is a point of order that is valid. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Wellington, on the same point of order. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not know if Beauchesne identifies or labels heckling, but what I was attempting to do with the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh) is to ensure that accurate comments are placed on the record, and so far I have heard very little of any accuracy coming from the Minister of Education. I am trying to educate the Minister of Education. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: I will ju st ask the members to just give me one minute. The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. * (1 530 ) Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): It strikes me that what we probably have here is a genuine honest difference of opinion between the two honourable members, and if all honourable members tried to observe the kind of decorum that we talk about all the time, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we may be able to get on with some progress this afternoon. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I thank the honourable minister for that. Order, please.

The honourable minister did not have a point of order, but I would ask for the co-operation of the House. We are into debate, and we each have a small portion of time allocated to put our views forward. Sometimes we disagree with those views, and it can add a little bit of disagreement within the Chamber. I will allow a little bit of that in the Chamber, but I think we have to keep it to a low. The honourable minister, to continue. *** Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we had said coming into of fice that what we needed was a strong economy that would generate enough jobs and generate enough revenue and generate enough wealth to be able to support and sustain those essential services and programs that are the hallmark of a caring and compassionate society. That is what we said in 1988 and in 1989, and we have said that each successive year. How do you build a strong economy capable of achieving those ends? Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you do it in several ways. One, you first of all ensure that jobs are created.

You do not do that by government creating jobs, you do not do that by, say, starting an airline when you do not know anything about running an airline. You instead do things such as lower the aviation fuel tax and put in incentives so that businesses can flourish and jobs can be created. That is the type of thing that we did. For 10 years, we have not raised any of the major taxes. It is a North American record of unparalleled

284 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 performance, and it is recognized, not only in Canada, but internationally as well that Manitoba has achieved this. Manitoba has also reduced personal income tax by 2 percent, all of these types of things done in one of the biggest national recessions the country has faced in the early '90s.

So while we had small revenue coming in from external sources, massive cutbacks in transfer payments, all of those items that governments before us had never had to cope with, we still managed to improve the economy to such a degree that we have attracted businesses that we have by tax incentives, by a whole series of positive climatting, enabled businesses to expand or to locate here. The net result is, of course, the creation of jobs, and that creation of jobs has meant that more people have become self-suf ficient and independent. I am not talking about part-t ime jobs.

I know members opposite try to pretend these are part-time McJobs. They are wrong. We have more full-time jobs, permanent jobs leading to good futures, providing stable incomes for families. We have seen more people come off welfare to become fully productive citizens, to have independent lives of self-suf ficiency. We have done things with hog marketing that have been extremely beneficial to this province. That is just one example, Mr. Deputy Speaker, of dozens and dozens and dozens of examples.

They were fought-[interjection] Well, those kinds of changes were fought bitterly by members opposite, but those were very good decisions, and they resulted in the jobs that we were looking to see created in the private sector, not by government. At the same time, we have downsized our own workforce in a humane way such that we were able to downsize thousands of positions with very few actual layoffs. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the

article I referred to in the paper the other day has the heading: There is no place like home for finding jobs. If I may be permitted to quote: We see that Manitobans who have left the province because of big job prospects are coming back, and they are fmdingjust what they are looking for, and job hunters still in Manitoba do not need to look much further than home because the province has the highest rate of full-time employment in Canada right now. This is a great time to be a Manitoban.

Statistics Canada figures show the creation of 14,200 full-time jobs so far in 1997, an increase of more than 3 percent over the same period in 1996 and twice the national average. Some people are coming home to find jobs waiting for them, said Mr. Jim Downey, our Minister oflndustry, Trade and Tourism. The employment rate which is a low 6.4 percent is a good sign for Manitoba's future economic employment. I think it is fabulous news that confirms that when unemployment was low early this year, it was not just a temporary trend, said Harry Mardon.

It is not just in Winnipeg; it is in rural Manitoba as well, he said. So you see the types of things that are being reported in the paper, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and that is not, of course, the only thing that is being reported in the paper. I am quoting the paper because notoriously this particular paper is not seen to be a friend of the Tory government necessarily, so these are I think rather significant articles. We tend to hear it more being presented as a glass half empty than half full, so I think these articles are significant.·· , Manitoba tops the nation. Again, this is Saturday's paper.

I am still being heckled extremely rudely by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), and it is hard for me to hear, but I am going to prevail without asking for a point of order which I believe is legitimate, that I could ask. It is the best of times for Bud Howard and thousands of people like him. A booming economy helped push the Manitoba jobless rate down to 6.4 percent last month translating into steady work at a good job for Howard after 12 months of unemployment. Things are really picking up, he said. The guys are always talking about all the jobs out there and who is hiring.

It is a great change from the way things used to be, and so on, and so on. We know that these jobs, Mr. Deputy Speaker, are-there are 14,200 more jobs just over this year alone. If you look at figures going back to--1 hesitate to say the previous government because the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) points out we were the previous government-the previous administration, the New Democratic administration, you will see these figures being quite different and quite improved over that situation.

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 285 Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have taken an historic first step by making our first payment towards the total elimination of Manitoba's debt, a very significant step that is absolutely supported by the ma jority of Manitobans. This we all know; members opposite know this. That is why members opposite have recently begun to say that they do support the elimination of the debt. That is a new thing for them to be saying, and it is a good thing for them to be saying.

They are saying it in response to the public's acceptance of the way we are following through in our commitment to the people of Manitoba. We have our third balanced budget which will free up dollars ultimately for support of those essential services, compared to what would have happened, Mr. Deputy Speaker, had we carried on-[inter jection] The member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), I invite her to stand right now and put those comments on the record. I have no objection to her standing and putting it on the record as she said them from her seat, not changed. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Wellington, on a point of order? Ms. Barrett: No, in response to the Minister of Education's invitation. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member will have her opportunity when the minister is finished. This is not a question-a nd-answer period. The honourable minister, to continue her presentation. * (1 540) Mrs. Mcintosh: Then I presume I will not be getting any more questions from the chair, from the seat, if she is not to do that publicly. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, what we do know is that third balanced budget and the way in which the money has been handled by the very capable people in government, that we will soon begin to see more money for our social programs. We do have money set aside for things like floods and fires and national disasters. [interjection] I cannot believe she is still carrying on. I mean, I would be so embarrassed ifl were her, I just- honestly. However, that is her choice. We do know that the members opposite, the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) wants us to spend every cent we have in the rainy day fund.

She has said that clearly, and I would like to see her say that publicly in her speech when she makes it and send a notice saying she wants to spend every penny in the rainy day fund. On what? I would like to know on what- Point of Order Ms. Barrett: A point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wellington, on a point of order. Ms. Barrett: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have never said in this Chamber I or we wanted to spend every single penny of the rainy day fund.

There is, however, a fund of $577 million and wait lists of three years for special assessment for children in the minister's own department. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member did not have a point of order; it is clearly a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister, to continue. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am delighted that the member has now acknowledged the need for a rainy day fund, that she would not spend the rainy day fund in its totality if they were in power.

Many of their members, including her, have given that impression, so this reversal is heartening. The NDP do support the existence of a rainy day fund. Without the measures we put in place, we would not- Point of Order Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wellington, on a point of order. Ms. Barrett: The Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh) has been stating time and time again that we

286 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 8, 1997 are putting inaccuracies on the record. I would like you to admonish the Minister of Education not to put words into the mouths of people other than herself. She has difficulty enough with that. No one has said that we are supporting the rainy day fund. What I said was there was a rainy day fund, and there is also a wait list of three years for special assessments for children in her own department. Please ask her to be accurate when she makes her comments from her chair. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member did not have a point of order; clearly a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister, to continue. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much. I believe the record will show the member said she would not spend all the money in the rainy day fund; ergo must one conclude that she would leave some money in the rainy day fund. Why would she do that if she does not support a rainy day fund? Pardon me, but we take deductive reasoning in school. If she wants to come and sit in on some of the lessons, she would be most welcome. It is part of our new assessment in schools.

An Honourable Member: Are you next, Becky? Mrs. Mcintosh: I hope she is, yes. I have to indicate that what we have is a rainy day fund which the NDP would not spend in its totality. The member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) has made it clear that they would not spend all that money in the rainy day fund; they would leave some in that rainy day fund. She made that clear.

If we had not done what we have done, what we would have instead would be an escalation of the $2 million a day in interest that we have to pay on the debt that they incurred in six years and left to us as a legacy, and every time we have to spend that amount of money on a daily basis for interest on the debt, we have that much less left that we can spend on emergency items, essential services, et cetera, so I maintain that we are in a far better position today with the first major payment on the debt, with money in place for essential services, with emergency money set aside in a rainy day fund that the NDP would not spend in its totality.

We are building for the future. I look forward to the day, and it will be in my lifetime, when my daughter as a citizen of Manitoba does not have to wake up in the morning and know that the government is taking $2 million of taxpayers' money away from her and others like her every day of the year to throw on interest on the debt and never be a benefit to her.

I look forward to the day, some 20 years hence, before she is my age, when she can live in a debt-free province, keep some of the money she earns in her own pocket, get better services because there is more money left over to use for services because the debt as we know it, given to us by our friends opposite, will no longer exist for our children. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I look forward to that. I look forward to grandchildren that I might have being able to grow up without this debt hanging over them, so that we can afford food programs in schools for children instead of taking money on the debt.

All the money we have to spend on the debt-[inter jection] Now, the member opposite has ju st said some very terrible things. I encourage her when she makes her speech to repeat them verbatim the way she has just said them now and have the courage and the guts to put them on the record as she spitefully spits them across the House. I do not know that she would have the courage to do that, but I challenge her to put those words exactly as she just said them on the record in her speech.

I suspect they will come out slightly changed, slightly modified, slightly toned down so as not to offend any constituents of hers who might read them. [interjection] You know, there is something that happens in this Chamber that- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. It is going above and beyond what I was allowing. I said I would allow a little bit, but we are going beyond that, so could we bring it back to a low level? The honourable minister, to continue. Mrs. Mcintosh: Just to give you an example, Mr. Deputy Speaker, of the kind of support we have been

December 8, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 287 able to provide to some of the social services, namely education, for which I am currently minister, we have in Manitoba over the past nine and a half years of careful attention to the province's finances still increased funding to public education by $1 15 million- $1 15 million more this year than the year we came into office for our public schools. [interjection] Now, Mr. Struthers has taken up where the other member left off. I find it extremely offensive. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Could I remind honourable members that we refer to the other members by their ridings, not by their names. The honourable minister, to continue. Mrs. Mcintosh: Part of the problem I think we have, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that when I say things like we have $115 million more spent on education, public school education this year from the province than when we took of fice, part of the problem is the members opposite get very agitated with that statistic.

They would prefer to talk about the three years when there was a 2 percent cut, but I have to say that even including that 2 percent cut for those three years we still are putting $1 15 million more into public schools this year than in 19 88, and that money has kept pa

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-8
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 8.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9b57b36636e592641a83a6fdef2e4f8a95f4d2ed

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