VOL. 3 THIRD SRSSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENEPAL ASSE~~BLY OF NFWFOUl'TDLAND PP-.ELIHIN.ARY m-mDITED TRI\NSCRIPT HOUSF. OF ASSFHBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, Jl..PRIL 4, 1984 !'TO. 17

April 4, 1984 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 652 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Development. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of my statement today is to outline to the members of this House the callous position adopted by the Government of Canada on the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation Limited.

As han. members are no doubt aware, NLDC is a federal/provincial organization which provides loan and equity financing for small and medium­ sized firms in Newfoundland and Labrador to become es­ tablished, to expand or to modernize present operations and to diversify into new operations. Since its inception in 1972 by the two levels of government, NLDC has concentrated its assistance to manufacturing enterprises and resource based firms in the Province.

During the past ten years, NLDC has approved over 260 loans with a value of $56.8 million and approved fifty-six projects for equity financing with a value of $2.8 million. More than 3,300 full-time and 700 part-time jobs have been created in private sector projects supported by the Corporation's activity. Mr. Speaker, certainly these statistics show the important role NLDC fulfills in business development in this Province. To carry out this work, the Corporation has been served by a diligent and hard working 1761

April 4, 1984 Tape 652 EC - 2 MR. WINDSOR: board of directors. The board, appointed respectively by the shareholders - the two levels of government - has given valuable advice and guidance over the years. In addition, the Corporation has a strong professional group of employees dedicated to business development. Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada now wants to destroy this Corporation which has been so·successful during the past ten years. It is the federal intention to withdraw from and wind up NLDC - a legal right under the terms and conditions of the Federal-Provincial Agreement.

However, this federal position is in complete contrast to the Province's position of wanting to maintain NLDC as a jointly funded organization to assist business development. Mr. Speaker, the latest five­ year federal/provincial funding agreement expired on July 17, 1982. Prior to, and after that date, the Province made several representations to the Government of Canada regarding its intention to participate in a renewed five­ year agreement with the Province. We have executed since 1982 two amendment agreements, one of six month duration and the latest of fifteen months which expired March 31, 1984. 1762

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 653 MR. WINDSOR: The Province has never received from the Government of Canada a longer term commitment even though NLDC has proven to be such a valuable body. NM - 1 Mr. Speaker, during the discussions between federal/provincial officials concerning NLDC 1 it was disclosed that the Government of Canada views the activities of NLDC as duplicating the services of the Federal Business Development Bank.

Furthermore, the re- structuring of the federal departments such as DRIE and MSERD are said by the federal government to be capable of providing adequate programmes and services to assist business development. However, a joint governmental evaluation of the activities of the Corporation completed in May 1982 clearly showed that the lending activities of the FBDB are not directed to the all important manufacturing and processing sectors of our economy and do little to encourage the expansion and diversification of Newfoundland business in this respect.

This evaluation concluded the following with respect to the Corporation's achievement of its various objectives during the 1977-1982 period . in the matter of loan financing, "After considering the level of economic activity in the period under review, the reactive role of the Corporatio~ and its lender of last · resort policy 1 it was concluded that the NLDC had achieved the above objective and did so without duplicating alternate existing loan services." And secondly, to provide equity financing, "It was concluded that NLDC is filling an existing financing gap by providing the kind of equity financing that is not available in similar terms and conditions from other sources." 1763

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 653 NM - 2 MR. WINDSOR: Thirdly, to provide management advisory services, "The Corporation was found to be quite strong in the financial and accounting expertise that it provided ... The Evaluation Committee concluded that within the constraints of staff resources, the Corporation had met its objective of providing management adviso ry services ," Fourthly, to provide other related services, "It was the conclusion of the Evaluation Committee that NLDC had met its objective to provide other related services and assistance to Newfoundland businesses.

This was achieved through its highly successful and unique books by mail service, its business and technical library, its involvement in the delivery of other federal/provincial and provincial busi~ess as sistance programmes,and latterly through a co-operative arrangement with the National Research Council to strengthen its technical information and advisory services ." 1764

--- . _ .. --- --- April 4, 1984 Tape No. 654 MR. WINDSOR: Fifthly, to assist small and medium sized businesses, "The Evaluation Committee concluded that the companies assisted by NLDC would be considered small or medium sized by any reasonable standards." MJ - l In addition, Mr. Speaker, Dr. James G. Barnes, Dean of the School of Business, Hemorial Univ7rsity of Newfoundland carried out a study to gain information about the opinions of individuals and businesses with whom NLDC has had dealings during the ten years since its establishment.

In order to attain as much information as possible from the bus~ness community of the Province it was decided that as many clients of, and applicants to, the corporation as possible would be contacted. The list contained a total of 163 Newfoundland businesses and included both successful and unsuccessful applicants.

Some of the the more significant findings of the survey were as follows: Seventy per cent of respondents felt that Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation had been effective in creating jobs and more than 70 per cent felt that the corporation had been .effective in assisting the establishment of new businesses to ex pand and modernize. Secondly, NLDC staff is consideied to be highly accessible to clients; Thirdly, when clients make use of services provided by the corporation, they are generally satisfied with the se·rvice obtained.

Fourthly, approximately 90 per cent of the respondents indicated that they would apply again for funding from the corporation. Even 60 per cent of the unsuccessful applicants indicated that they would apply again. 1765

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 654 MJ - 2 MR. WINDSOR: The Barnes Report served to provide answers to a number of soul-searching questions and the results of this have helped the corporation to adjust its operational policies from time to time. Also -, O:mil.ifacts Research Limited undertook a survey to gain information about the users of InfoReach services and their opinion of these services. The survey indicated the overwhelming success and widening usage of this unique programme. Custom designed for the Province's business environment, it caters equally to those persons who can actually visit the library at St.

John's of those who are resident in other parts of the Province and therefore cannot visit the facility in person. This very special service to business persons and · entrepreneurs in rural l'lewfoundland and Labrador is achieved through a 'Books-By-Mail' prograrnwB and the publishing of a series of book catalogues detailing library contents and instructions on how to access them by mail. While the vast majority of InfoReach service users are from Newfoundland and Labrador business communities it is important to note that many federal and provincial officials make regular use of the facility.

To summarize, the ornnifact Research Limited survey concluded that, "Info:R.each is perceived as being valuable and worthwhile by its members and their future utilization of these services should, in most cases, increase." 1766

April 4,1984 Tape 655 PK - 1 MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, NLDC has a regional office network throughout the Province and this has been utilized by government. The federal/provincial tourism accommodations incentives programme had the regional NLDC representatives assist clients in the preparation of applications. In addition, the Department of Fisheries consolidated with the financial services of NLDC the secondary fish processing loans programme. This arrangement provided a rationalization of delivery systems and easy access for prospective clients.

In addition to this,the recent and highly successful OICAP programme has been assisted by the staff at NLDC and in the recent budget we announced that a venture capital programme would be established and would be administered by NLDC on behalf of the Department of Development. Mr. Speaker, in light of the results of NLDC's activities, the 1982 evaluation report and the studies undertaken,it is clear why this Province made every effort to continue the operations of NLDC as a jointly funded federal/provincial organization. To this end, Mr.

Speaker, over the past two years, the han. the Premier, my officials and I have repeatedly addressed a stream of letters, urgent telexes, and discussions to the federal government on this subject. Mr. Speaker, we have scarcely been favoured with the courtesy of a reply. Eleven separate communications have been sent to the federal government concerning NLDC since March of 1982, the time at which the evaluation report was being finalized, and only twice have there been replies. These replies resulted in the last minute and short-term extensions to which I referred earlier. 1757

April 4, 1984 Tape 655 PK - 2 MR. WINDSOR: More recently, Mr. Speaker, on October 27, 1983, I wrote the hon. E. Lumley requesting that our officials again dicuss long-term participation in NLDC; on December 5, 1983 the hon. the Premier-wrote the same federal minister asking for the start of negotiations. We have not received a response to either letter, in fact, neither the Premier nor I have even received an acknowledgement of their receipt. Mr. Speaker, on March 27 of . this year, the Province indirectly heard of the Federal Minister's position.

We did not receive a letter from shareholder to shareholder, but rather a letter addressed to my deputy minister from the Executive Director (Newfoundland) Federal Department of Regional and Industrial Development. Essentially, this letter expresses a- federal intent to withdraw and wind ' U]? NLDC. The handling of this communication of the federal position is certainly a direct insult to the Province, the Board of Directors of NLDC and the entire performance shows a total lack of respect for the professional staff of the Corporation. Mr.

Spenker, this government abhors the federal government's apparen·t determination to destroy an organization which has been not only the principal incentive financing institution for industrial development in the Province but also a visible and continuing proof of the valuable results that can be achieved when the federal and provincial government co-operate effectively and in harmony. ,·· 1768

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 656 MR. WINDSUR: Th~s is an approach which, regrettably, the Government of Canada does · not these days see fit to continue with. SD - 1 The Province s·incerely wishes to maintain the operations of NLDC and to continue the federal presence in some form that allows· this organization, which i:s uniquely matched to the specific conditions of our Province, ·to continue in the years to come. Mr. Speaker, I' would hope that i.n · li:gh.t of the above the federal government will reconsider its position.

It is most unfortunate,indeed,that the Government of Canada often sees fit to change that which . is working well. Such is the case with NLDC, a shining example of how · federal/provincial co-operation can work to the benefit of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. As we say in Newfoundland, Mr. speaker, 'If it ain •·t broke don ''t fix it' '. SUME' HON •. MEMBERS: MR. NE .ARY: MR. SPEAKER CRusselU: MR.NEARY't Hear, hear~ Mr. s·peaker. The hon •. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I hope that hon. gentlemen know-what they are applauding. They are applauding another fai·lure. It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that we have heard that song before. The hon. gentleman started out his Ministerial Statement by say how callous the federal government are, Mr. Speaker. And we are not surprised to hear this kind of a statement being made here today, , especially by a minister who has been announcing projects prematurely, trying to upstage the Government of Canada, Mr. Speaker. We saw- it in the case of of that company? MR. f•7ARREN : Easteel. what was the name MR. NEARY: Easteel, Hr. Speaker. We saw a classic example of where the hon. gentleman and the 1769

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 656 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: Province - MR. WARREN: And the North Nest River Bridge MR. NEARY: - and we saw it in the case of the North v7est River Bridge and the bridge across the Codroy River, Mr. Speaker, where the hon. gentlemen, using federal money, decided that MR. WINDSOR: North West River Bridge. MR. NEARY: I had nothing to do with the - th.ey would upstage the Government of Canada and make the .ir own announcements prematurely. Now, Mr. Speaker, having said that , again I have to say that what we are seeing is a classic example in this Pro vince of •·group think' .

They are on the same old kick and they seem to oe elated and they · take great pleasure and joy, they are almost sadistic, in their attitude when they are giving Ottawa a broadsides over something or other. They cannot wait to get on their fee .t, Mr. Speaker, to get up on MR. WINDSOR: NLDC or not? MR. NEARY: SOHE HOU. ?iEMBERS : MR. NEARY: Do you support I am corning to that. Oh, oh! I did not interrupt the hon. gentleman. I lis·tened to the hon .. gentleman read hi:s · Ministerial Statement, Mr.

Speaker, and the whole statement was designed to give Ottawa another broadsides and the han. gentleman seemed to be elated. It is too oad that the Emperor was not in his seat to see the han. gentleman, I am sure he would get the first Medal for Braver y in this Province for getting 1770

April 4, 1984, Tape 657, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: up and emulating the Premier, parrotting what the Premier has been saying in this Province. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that nobody in this han. House, no member on either side of this House can be as enthusiastic about the achievements of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation as the han. gentleman. In actual fact, Mr.Speaker, they have achieved very little. Now, I regret to have to say that,because the Newfoundland and La ·brador Development Loan Corporation was a Liberal concept. Mr.

Speaker, it was on the drawing board, it was something that the Moores administration inherited - MR. WINDSOR: You will have to change your minds now that it was such a great Liberal concept. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I listened to ~ the han. gentleman and I did not interrupt, and I only have half the time that the han. gentleman had. MR. WINDSOR: You have not got half as much to say. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the concept was a Liberal concept and Mr.Moores, when he formed the government of this Province, inherited the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation.

It was only a matter of just implementing the terms and provisions of the agreement . But somewhere along the line it got off the rails. It was meant to be a lender of last resort, but it got off the rails, as hon. gentlemen know, because we all have had dealings with the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Loan Corporation. I .gave up on it years ago. We could not even find out in this House what companies and what individuals were getting the loans and getting assistance from the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. 1771

April 4, 1984, Tape 657, Page 2 --apb MR. NEARY : Mr. Speaker, when it was first established, I would say for the first six of seven years, it was used by the previous administration for pork barrelling purposes, for looking after their political friends. Mr. Speaker, that is what it was used for. Now, after the previ_ous administration disappeared, and the hon. gentlemen there opposite refused to acknowledge that there was a Moores administration there for seven years, they refused to acknowledge that, then it tightened up and, Mr.

Speaker, the terms and conditions of doing business with the­ Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation were almost identical to the banks. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that there is nothing that the Federal Business Development Bank cannot, or DRIE cannot do that the Newfoundland 1772

April 4, 1984 Tape 658 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Development Loan Corporation is doing - nothing that they cannot do. The Federal Business Development Bank is federal money, Mr. Speaker, and there is nothing that that bank cannot do that the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation was doing. And if that fails, then they have DRIE, which is a new federal programme to give assistance to business and industry and to provide venture capital for any businessman or any industrywanting to start up in this Province. ~- WINDSOR: They will I'Xlt fund manufacturers, they will I'Xlt service than. l'1R.

NEARY: The han. gentleman stressed the fact that they havea library. Mr. Speaker, they do indeed have a library 1 but I would say it is a pretty expensive library, because that is about the only service that they have provided in recent years. And the han. gentleman pointed to a few successes. Well, what about the failures? t would say, Mr.

Speaker, from the records that I have seen and the examination that I have been able to make of the activities of the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation, and scrutinizing their projects and their loans, that there are very few jobs in existence today as a result of loans and grants and assistance that were provided by that Corporation. And they have had a pretty hefty string of failures, Mr. Speaker. MR. WINDSOR: Not true. MR. NEARY: It is true. . Y1R.. WINDSOR: It is not true . MR. NEARY: No? Well, I remember the under- water connectors, $2.5 million, down in the Donovans Industrial Park, Mr.

Speaker, when they were supposed to have with the United States Navy a contract; but it did not exist. Fraud tV'as what I called it at the time - 1773

April 4, 1984 Tape 658 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: $2.5 million, the building is still down there. I do not know who has it now. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. NEARY: So long, it's been good to know you, that is wha 't I would say now about the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition's time has expired. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I have a few questions about the Bell Island ferry service. I notice the hon. the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) is in his seat. The hon. gentleman is probably aware that on Bell Island at the terminal on Sunday past, a large number of residents of the Island came down to the terminal to protest the increase in the rates and general dissatisfaction with the ferry service. The hon. gentleman was invited to attend but he did not elect to do so. Now, let me ask the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, if there is a contract now between the provincial government, between the hon. gentleman's department and the Newfoundland Transportation Company?

And if there is a contract, if there is an agreement, will the hon. gentleman indicate why that project was not put to public tender, why the hon. gentleman chose, in \dolation of 1774

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 659 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: the Public Tendering Act, to just award the contract to the company which was currently operating the service and not call public tenders? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, over the past two or three years since I have been in this portfolio I have made several visits to Bell Island andhave spoken with the Commuters Committee on the Island, have spoken with them in my office here in St. John's, here at the Confederation Building from time to time with the member for _the area, Mr.

Doyle, have met with the Town Council and been with a Cabinet Committee that received a brief on behalf of the people of Bell oisland with regard to the ferry service. We have been very deeply involved as a department 1and I have been personally very deeply involved in the whole intra­ provincial ferry system in the Province. And we have made, Mr. Speaker, what I consider and what many consider to be tremendous strides. Perhaps no other aspect of transportation in this Province has improved as dramatically and as significantly as that of the intraprovincial ferry system.

We have improved the systems in ever single instance. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, since the Province took over the operation of the intra­ provincial fe~ry system we have in fact increased the number of services that we have. We now have a ferry system to Gaultois,which before was not there, a passenger service to Gaultois. We have an increased service in the Little Bay Islands/Long Island area where that service was split, so there is a new operation there. We have improved the Ramea- 1775

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 659 NM - 2 MR . DAWE : Burgeo service to the extent that that service is now increased from a passenger service to a passenger/vehicle service. We have studied the situation on fare s. MR . NEARY : to be talking about. MR . DAWE : It is Bell Island you are supposed I am ju st indicating to the hon. member, who somehow suggested that perhaps I would not meet with the group from Bell Island, that I have just indicated to him that I have met with several groups and will continue to do so when necessary as it relates to that fery system . And we have looked at very seriously, Mr.

Speaker, the fare structure which had built into it no real association from fares charged on one service to those charged on another service. It was one of the real inequities of the whole intraprovincial ferry system and we had to try and do something 1776

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 660 MJ - l MR. DAWE: about that to bring it in line with some fate increases that might be put in place and at the same time make them equitable in all services . . 1\nd we have devised a method of doing that, Mr. Speaker, spread over a five year period. So in fact where there will be increases,they w~ll be spread over a five year period. At the end of that five year period iti will be the same principle in charging these fares in all the services throughout the Province. And I note, l·1r.

Speaker, that the increases for single passengers on the Bell Island service will increase from fifty cents to sixty-five cents, and they will increase fifteen cents a year for that fi"e year period,which I do not consider, and many people ~rho~ I have spoken to on Bell Island do not consider to be an exorbitant increase by any stretch of the imagination. The commuters who use the ferry services will be getting their fares at SO per cent of the normal charge.

Ro people who are using the ferry system, not only on Bell Island but also in other parts of the Province, who use it as a commuter service will be doing so at SO per cent of the regular fare. Also, Mr. Speaker, we have introduced a reduction of SO per cent for senior citizens who travel on the various services in the Province. I think we have been more than responsible in dealing with the fare increases or the equalization of the fare charges. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, in particular services the fares will decrease; 1 might point out that one of these iB in an area represented by the Speaker,· and represented very well by the Soeaker, and it is through conversations that I had with him in discussing this whole fare structure that these fares were brought in line, In that particular service, the Change Island serviceJthe fare is cut in half and will remain at that level for the five year period. 1777

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 660 MJ - 2 ~~. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, we have looked at different methods of supplying a service to the residents of Bell Island with the need to try and improve and increase the frequency of the boats; 1778

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 661 SD - 1 MR. DAWE: in other words, bring it from what three years ago,when we started this whole process, when the member for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr. Doyle) began representing the area , from what was a five week two- boat system to this year when that will be increased, Mr. Speaker, -- . - not ·co six __ weeks, ~ven weeks, eight weeks, nine weeks but to a two~boat system for nine months, ~rr. Speaker. r•1R.

WINDSOR: Nine months~ MR.· DAWE: It has increased from five week to nine months for a two-boat service, a very significant increas ·e in the service provided to the people o·f Bell Island and a recognition, Mr~ Speaker, of concerns for the aspirations of the people form Bell Island as it relates to the necess -ity of having a regular and available transportation system to get back and forth and for oth .er amenaties 'that they have access to on the mainland. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A point of order, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman is not answering the question but ' apart from that he is breaking the rules of the House. Answers have to be brief. The hon. gentleman is taking us all around the: Province now and in his harangue over there he is trying to justify increasing rates on ferry services throughout the Province. I asked the hon. gentleman about the Public Tendering Act and the han. gentleman did not address himself to that. . So in addition to not answering the question, Mr. Speaker, he is into a long harangue about nothing and I would submit he is out of order. MR. MARSHALL: MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. President of the Council. 1779

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 661 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman asked a question and, you know, he cannot dictate the terms in which the question is going to be answered. He asked a question that requires a comprehensive answer and the han. minister is giving a comprehensive answer,and when he is doing that he is giving him the information that he requested in the question. MR. SPEAKER (Russell}: To that point of order, again I must repeat that the purpose of the Question Period is to provide an opportunity for as many questions to be asked and as-many answers to be received as possible-.

Certainly I would reques-t han. members to my left and to my right to observe that rule. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The hon. member for St. Johnl·s North. I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Order, please~ I did not know the han. mi~ister would not get up and finish his answer. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: hon. gentleman. MR. SPEAI<ER: St. J·ohn~s North. MR. CARTERc MR>· NEARY: Order, please!' r have a supplementary for the Order, please! I recognized the hon. member for Mr. Speaker. Is this: th.e way it is· going to be done now-, ·Mr. Speaker·, in this House? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: President of the Council. 1780 Oh, oh. This i·s: absolutely ridiculous, Order,, please!' It is absolutely ridiculous. Order, please! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon.

April 4, "1984 Tape No. 661 MR . MARSHALL: Your Honour,. once again the hon. gentleman wants to take this House,which is the House of the people of Newfoundland,on his back. l'iho is recognized depends upon the Speaker of this House. SD - 3 There is no right to ask supplementary questions, but I dare say the hon. gentleman Will get ample opportunity in this Question Period and elsewhere to ask other questions. But regardless of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, for the hon. gentleman to get up and make ~ kind of obs·ervation he did is impugning the authority of the Speaker of this House and that is not g~ven to the hon, gentleman to be able to do. And it calls for an immediate retraction from the hen. gentieman. The hon. gentleman would like to - 1781

April 4, 1984 Tape 662 PK - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Name him! MR. MARSHALL: -have this House as a beer hall if he could.have it, but he is not going to haVe it, Mr. Speaker, while this government is in power. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: The fact of the matter is the Speaker,when he is in the Chair and exercising is entitled to the support of this House. He is certainly going to get it from all members of this House,and this requires the hon. gentleman to retract his statement and apologize to the Chair without any qualification whatsoever. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition to that point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has the face of a robber's horse to stand in this House and criticize the Opposition for the way they behave in this House.

In the last couple of weeks -you talk about a beer pit or a beer garden or a boxing ring -they are over there trying to shout us down because they cannot win the debates, they are shouting fran the doorways, they are hurling objections across the House , they are hurling insults across the House, and that hon. gentleman has the face to stand up, Mr. Speaker, and criticize me because I have asked for my right. as an officer, as the Leader of the Opposition in this House. All I am asking for is my rights, Mr. Speaker. No aspersions were cast on the Chair.

I know how to deal with the Chair under the rules of this House if I want to, I do not need a lecture from the hon. gentleman. And the hon. gentleman can be as nasty as he wants ,and with his 1782

April 4, 1984 Tape 662 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: snake-like tongue he can squirt all the venom and all the poison he wants across this House, Mr. Speaker. It will do him no good because in the eyes of the public they have made complete shambles out of this House with their superiroity complex since the April 6 election, Mr. Speaker. And I would sutmit that there is no point of order and I think Your Honour realizes that. I think we should get on with the Question Period.

If the government members want to have a love-in with the ministers over there 1let them go out in the Common Room and do it over a cup of coffee and not use up the time of this House. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council. MR . MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to get engaged with the hon. gentleman. I have long since learned when you get down in the dirt with people that you get dirty and soiled yourself. Mr. Speaker, this is not a question of anything that has transpired in this House.

This is a question with respect to the hon. gentleman's conduct a few moments ago in this House in questioning Your Honour's ruling. Now the hon. gentleman,I do not need to quote Beauchesne- I mean, the hon. gentleman knows it, all hon. members know it-that the Speaker when he sits over the proceedings of this House is entitled to and must receive the respect of all members of the House. His rulings cannot be questioned, his judgment cannot be questioned, aspersions cannot be cast on the Chair .. I mean,it is there in black and white.

I also quote as well for the han. gentleman , because this is the issue,.~nd he is not going to be able to camauflague it. Standing Order 31 (f) - and this is related to the general parliamentary practice of the protection of the Speaker, Mr. Speaker -"The 1783

April 4, 1984 Tape 662 PK - 3 MR. MARSHALL: Speaker's ruling relating to oral questions are not debatable or subject to appeal." They are not subject to questioning in a base 1784

April 4, 1984 Tape 663 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: rnanner 1 which the han. gentleman did. And the han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, is not going to be able to confuse the issue. The fact of the matter is. he called into question a judgement of Your Honour, he called into question the authority of the Chair. He is required to retract and apologize and I submit to Your Honour that it calls for an immediate retrac­ tion from the hon. member. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! To that point of order, The hon. the member for the Mr.

Speaker, it is quite clear that no member of the House is allowed to call Your Hqnour's authority into account and there is no question here, in my view, that is what has been done. Despite the vehement pro- testations of the learned gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) what happened was this - and I have been in the House throughout as, of course, has Your Honour: My friend and colleague, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) was asking a question of the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe); the minister was making his answer. My friend, the Leader of the Opposition 1 raised a point of order.

It was perfectly in order. Your Honour heard it and Your Honour disposed of it. The minister was standing, prepared to carry on with the answer, when Your Honour did say 1 and I have no doubt Hansard will say,'The member for St. John's North;(Mr. Carter) who, I have no doubt was standing down in his place attempting to catch Your Honour's eye. 1785

April 4, 1984 Tape 663 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: There is nothing wrong with that, there is no reason why he should not try to. The only problem, Mr. Speaker, is there is a long tradition in this House which Your Honour has followed scrupulously, as Your Honour does all of the traditions of this House, that you are allowed a supplementary question or two. And my friend, the Leader of the Opposition, once Your Honour finished, was on his feet saying, 'A supplementary question.' Now, it is up to Your Honour who has the floor. And I suppose if it is not a supple­ mentary there can be another question asked.

I mean, it is not the end of the world. But, when my friend, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) says - and I forget his precise words, but it went something like this - 'Is this the way it is to be in the House?' that is a perfectly legitimate question. MR. TULK: After all of that! MR. ROBERTS: Because what Your Honour did, I submit with respect, Sir, was contrary to what Your Honour has done time and time again. DR. COLLINS: MR. WARREN: MR. ROBERTS: Questioning the Speaker! Sure! And why not? The dirt from the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) I will ignore.

What I am saying is that that is not questioning any ruling, that is a perfectly proper question, I suggest, Sir, growing out of the course of events which I have described. If Your Honour says, 'Fine, the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) is entitled to ask his question and read what somebody on the government side has written out for him,' that is fine, we have no problem with that; but, Sir, that does not for a moment raise any matter of question by my friend the Leader of the Opposition or anybody else. It is a perfectly legitimate 1786

.oll.:.'- April 4, 1984 Tape 663 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: question: 'Is that the way it is to be? Are we no longer to have supplementary questions?' I do not think the .re is a point of order here, Sir, I think all that has happened is that the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) cannot resist the chance to try to lower the \"hole tone of debate, wraps himself in his seamless cloak of sancti­ moniousness and , Sir, he should not be allowed to get away with it because • it is not warranted. 1787

April 4, 1984, Tape 664, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Order, please! The Chair has heard enough argument on this point of order .and certainly will reserve a ruling until it has had an opportunity to look at the transcripts. It is certainly the responsibility of the Chair to recognize the first member who catches the Speaker's eye, and I shall continue to do that. Subsequent to the hon. the Minister of Transportation(Mr.Dawe) having taken his seat, to my knowledge the hon. the member for St. John's North(Mr.

Carter) was the first person on his feet and the Chair subsequently recognized that hon. member .and does recognize the hon. member. MR. CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is nice to know that someone on our side can be fast on their feet. Mr. Speaker, I have a - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I move that we appeal Your Honour's ruling. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the President of the Council on a point of order. MR.

MARSHALL: On a point of order I quote Standing Order 3l(f): "The Speaker's rulings relating to oral questions are not debatable or subject to appeal." This is one instance, Mr. Speaker, when His Honour's ruling is not subject to appeal. MR . ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, that was not an appeal of a ruling by Your Honour on an oral question, it 1788

April 4, 1984, Tape 664, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: was a matter of a ruling by Your Honour on who Your Honour recognized. There is a difference, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Order, please! Order, please! The point raised by the hon. the President of the Council(Mr. Marshall) is well taken. There is no appeal of the Speaker's decisions during the Oral Question Period and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) is out of order in putting forward that motion. MR. cARTER: I have a question - SOME HON. MEMBERS : .oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the han. the Minister of culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms). In today's EVening Telegram there is a photograph of the former, former Premier of this Province donating a pair of dueling pistols to the Province. Now, these dueling pistols were the property of Max Whiteway, who was the son of the late Sir William Whiteway, one- time Prime Minister of this country, and my question to the minister is . on what basis were they accepted from the former, former Premier? who I do know borrowed them but, I understand,did not possess them. The credit should rightfully go to ~rr. or Mrs.

Whiteway. 1789

April 4, 1984 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) :- Tape No. 665 That is slander! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is a clear NM - 1 case of slander in this House and a waste of the taxpayer dollar, a waste of the time of the House, and Your Honour should not allow it. Your Honour should rule it out of order because it is slanderous in every way, shape and form. MR. SPEAKER: The hon .. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: It is not slanderous, you know, Mr. Speaker.

If Your Honour is in the domain of making judgements on the quality of the questions that are asked from time to time,I would suggest there would be very few questions asked in this hon. House. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition to that point of order. MR . NEARY: I would .submit that the hon. gentleman does not have the courage to say ouside the House what he just said inside the House, Mr. Speaker. And I think Your Honour should look at this very, very seriously.

Because the hon. gentleman is too cowardly to make that kind of a statement outside the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The question asked by the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) is in order. The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. 1790

::.; April 4, 1984 Tape No. 665 NM - 2 MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure if I understand the han. member's question to be perfectly frank. MR. NEARY: You should not even bother to answer it. MR. SIMMS: All I can say to the han. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) is that Mr. Smallwood I think is known to have a great deal of interest in preserving and conserving Newfoundland's culture and history in many ways, and I think he has shown that,of course.

And in this particular instance I was advised as minister that he had some artifacts that he wished to donate or contribute back to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador through the museum and I was quite happy to represent the government and the department in accepting those artifacts,which I did yesterday. And I would suggest to the han. mernber 1 if he wishes to obtain other information as to where they carne from and . so on 1 perhaps he might better d·eal with that by maybe writing Mr. Smallwood directly, I am sure he might respond. But I certainly have no such .intention. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, thank God the han. gentleman did not stoop to the level that the han. member for St. John's North did. Let me come back to the Bell Island ferry service again. I was asking the han. gentleman about the tender, if tenders were called before the contract was awarded and the han. gentleman evaded that question. He did not answer it so I can only assume that he does not want to answer it and under the rules of the House I cannot force the han. gentleman. 1791

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 665 NM- 3 MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The hon. the Pre siden t of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is asking a supplementary question in the Question Period . The hon. gentleman is not allowed to ma~e speeches or make comments. If the hon . ge ntleman is dissatisfied with the answer ,there is a procedure on Thursday to debate the minister 's answer. I would note that it has been used very, very sparingly by the Opposition both in the current session and in previous sessions. MR. NEARY: Mr .

Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEA..l(ER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition to that point of order. MR . NEARY: It is so obvious, Mr. Speaker, that the hon . gentleman wants now to set up a full dictatorship in this Province. Now the administration has found a new technique for not wanting 1792

April 4, 1984 Tape "'lo. 666 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: to answer questions, •·rhen they ~-.1ant to deflect a question directed tm-.1ards a minister. In every jurisdiction, as Your Honour knows, in Canada 1 and ·,'1.ere you have the British Parliamentar~r s"<TSt&"., you are allowed a brief

preamble. I watch every night in the House of Commons, in the debates from Ottawa. Now, Your Honour may rule that on your supplementaries you do not need a

preamble but all I was doing was making an observation. I was making an observation that the hon. gentleman did not answer rnv cruestion ·,:and I assume that he did not want to answer it, and I assur1e also, .·~r. ~ueRker, that ~1e haR a lot to hide, and I cannot force the hon. gentleman to answer my question 1 so therefore I have to go on to the next supplementa.ry question. MR. SPEAKER (RUssell) Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition Wr. Neary) I feel just said what he '"as going to say in the first place. It is indeed correct that in an original question there is some

preamble at times permitted, but certainly in a supplementary question there should not be a need for any ~reafuble whatsoever. H.H. NEARY: time left:. The hon. the Leader of the O~position. Mr. Speaker, we do not have much I want to concentrate on that Bell Island ferry service,so I will come back to it later. Let me ask the hon. gentleman a question about his use of chartered aircrafts.

The hon. gentleman admitted in a public statement on radio yesterday morning that he is chartering a private aircraft to take him to his district,but he added the rider, 'to hold business meetings.' qe goes horne for the weekend, uses a chartered aircraft from Labrador 1\.irways, a ~Javajo, Sl, 600 for the charter. The hon. gentleman acl .mitted it. ~~ow ~V'ill 1793

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 666 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: the han. gentleman tell the House how many times he has chartered the Navajo aircraft to take him to Stephenville so he can go home for the weekend, who else travels on the aircraft with him,and the total cost of all these trips, all these charters to date? MR. SPEAirnR (Russell): The hbn. 'the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAt~: Mr. Speaker, it is reall y too silly to reply to,but since the member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) did not want the answer to the first question, I suppose perhaps he will not want the answer to this one.

As it relates to his query, first of all, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what media he has been listening to but I certainly have not made an y comment as it relates to things that he has said inside the House. I would certainly be pleased to make a comment if he cares to say th~se things outside the House,but we will leave that to see if he indeed has the courage to do it. The direct question, Mr.

Speaker, and I guess it is important that it be cleared up, was whether in fact I used in some way government financing to charter aircraft in order to go home to my district. ':'he anm·!er to th.l. t c:uestion ver'lf s;i!n:ol v, Hr. SneFlker, is, no, I do. not do it, no, I have never done it 1 and I certainly do not have any intention of doing it in the future. MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: We will see. Mr. Speaker. 1794

-'I ; ·- April 4, 1984 Tape No. 667 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER CRusselll: The hon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs (_Mrs. Newhook). when it is planned to proclaim the amendment to the City of St. John 1 s Act, which _ was passed in the last sess -ion of the Legislature, p:.:oviding that, 'Wh .ere the City of St. John •s is not in a position to provide services to areas of the city recently ---- - taken in to the city 1 it will provide a reduced basis of taxatio~ for those areas•.

Now -I am informed that constituents have been checking with the city and are informed by city officials that there are no plans to :Oring in any form of reduced taxation because this is not yet la~. r wonder if the minis -ter •·s department is planning to move on this very quickly becaus-e otherwise we are going to be well into another taxation year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon, Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS • NEWHOOK £ Mr . Speaker, I will have to take this question under advisement . I am not quite sure at this moment. MR. BARRY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Supplementar y , the hon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the minister might explain why it was · that the act was made subject to proclamation. It must have been amended at the Committee stage or something, - - -4 - - because I have to confess it completely passed my attention that the bill was being made subject to proclamation. The initial printed bill was not subject to proclamation, this was added once it came to the House. I wonder what the reason for making this amendment subject to proclamation was? .-::-:::= ,--------- -- ---- MR.

SPEAKE~: The hon. ~1inister of Hunici pal A ff air s-:-- 1795

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 667 SD - 2 MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I do not know of any very important reason at all. I am not sure just exactly why it was not proclaimed at that particular time. I would have to check on that as well. MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER (Rus's-el 'l )_ Scio. MR. B"ARRY': Mr. Speaker. Th .e hon. member for Mount I wonder if we could have the minister• ·s conunitment to get an answer fairly shortly because I am not sure what the timing of the city ·'·s court of revision and so forth is 1 But we may miss the complete taxation year this year if this amendment to the City of St.

John ''s Act is not brought into force fairly quickly. MR. . SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affai .rs ·, MRS ".. NEWHOOK: . MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Mr •. Speaker, I will do that. Mr. Speaker • The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~1R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance CDr. Collinsl: tabled in the House the other day a list of loans and quarantees ·. Down at the bottom of the list there are the names of two gentleman who received a principal amount of $137,0.00 which was guaranteed by the Province, Could the non. gentleman indicate to the House what this · money· was· for? 1796

April 4, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : DR. COLLINS: Tape 668 PK - 1 The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) mi~standing things. I did not table anything that said that two individuals received any amounts of money at all. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have here in front of me a document says Ocean Harvesters, Fisheries Products, Bay St. George, Newfoundland Food Processors, Blue Ocean Products, Cape Pine Fisheries, Gerald Ryder and Walter Street, $137,000.

They defaulted on their loan and the taxpayers had to pick up the principal and interest of $156,685.73. Now would the han. gentleman stop playing games . and tell the House what that $137,000 was for? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: No problem whatever, Mr. Speaker. I was correcting the hon. member MR. NEARY: day. DR. COLLINS: You tabled the list the other - who said that these individuals received that money. I was correcting him. He was stating something which was totally incorrect, The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) makes these broad statements which have no basis in facts.

And I frequently have to get on ~y feet and correct him. And I was on my feet again correcting him. He says these individuals got $137,000 or whatever it was. MR. NEARY: A guarantee. Rights. -- DR. COLLINS: I was correcting him. They did not get it. MR. NEARY: A guarantee. · They did get it. DR. COLLINS: They did not get the money .which i is what the hon. Leader of the Opposition said. Who got the money? 1797

April 4, 1984 Tape 668 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: The bank got the money - MR. NEARY: well, what was it for? DR. COLLINS: - because -~~e repossessed the boat to which this amount of money. t-1as guaranteed. Those individuals got no money. We took the boat away from them because,unfortunately,these honest fishermen were _unable to meet their obligations because of the state of the fishery and so on. They could not meet their obligations, we had to honour the guarantee we had on. We gave the money to the bank, and as a result of.that we repossessed the boat. It is very different from what the han.

Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) was implying when he said that the government had given $136,000 to these two individuals. I hope for once the press will get the truth and not come out with the headlines,such as carne out in a certain paper the other day,when the han. Leader made a statement on provincial debt, which I carne out immediately and corrected what he said, and yet it ended up in headlines what the hon. Leader of the Opposition said. I rnean,it was totally disgraceful. HR. HARSHALL: Which paper? DR. COLLINS: It was some rag called The Daily News.

I do not know if anyone reads it. , But anyway it was totally disgraceful, and especially after I had said/~·7, this is what I supsect that this raggish document will say,'~d ;sure enough 1 this is what this raggish document said the next morning, even though I said it would say that and it should not say it because here are the facts. 1798

;.j-() J J c_, D 1-:: 4.s "~ rn h I I . '"' Aprll 4, 1984, T~pe 669, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minis -ter of Justice . MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I hav~ the answer to question No. 19 on the Order Paper of March 28, 1984 asked by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary). 'Since 1977 how many issuers of marriage licences have been granted for the Province?' The total is 434. 'Since 1977, how many resignations of same have been received?' The total 227.

Some are deaths and they have the same effect as resignations, but strictly speaking, they are not resignations. MR. NEARY: Why have so many resigned? MR. OTTENHEIMER: They do not give reasons. .MR. NEARY: There is no business, no money. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I would imagine. Because that seems to be a great number of people to issue a marriage licence. I understand there are something in excess of 2~0 now. They do not give reasons for resigning. I would think it was because they had nothing to do, and a number would have moved away, and a number would have died. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue . MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 196 residents of the town of Markland. This is not the first occasion where I have had the opportunity to present a petition on behalf of the people who live in Markland. It concerns their horrible road conditions. I am glad that the Minister of Transportation is in his seat so that he can respond favourably, I hope, 1799

April 4, 1984, Tape 669, Page 2 -- apb MR. CALLAN: and tell the people that they will get something done with their road this Spring. As I said, Mr. Speaker, it is not the first time that I have presented a petition on behalf of these people. They have been looking for improved road conditions,and hopefully a paved road, in the town of Markland for years and years and years. On one occasion they thought they had their pavement, back in 1974/75, but then along came an election and the plans were changed.

That was about the same time that the districts were changed, when ten additional districts were added to the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, I will read the prayer of the petition: It says, "To the hon. House of Assembly. The undersigned residents of the community of Markland hereby petition the Government of Newfoundland, through the hon. the Minister of Transportation(Mr. Dawe), to give immediate ·consideration to paving and upgrading the main and branch roads thro\lgh ~the community of Markland." So there it is, Mr.

Speaker, a very_simple request by people who, on a day like today, especially after the snow we had last week 1 with the melting snow~on a day like today, I would .hazard a guess that the cars and trucks tha .t travel this road are finding it very, very muddy and soft and dirty, I am sure. Mr. Speaker, this petition was initiated by one of the clergy who serves that town. Actually, he came into my office a couple of months ago and asked about getting a petition on the go. I did not prepare the prayer of the petition, I guess he must have.

But, anyway, ~ -- --- - - a lot of work had to go into going door to door with a petition such as this one, and getting the people to sign their names for a very basic and simple request, asking that their tax dollars be put back into their town. There are a fair number of farmers in Markland, they are primary producers. They are like the fishermen who lived 1800

April 4, 1984 Tape 670 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: down in South West Arm, who had been asking for improved and paved roads for years. And, as I said, Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) is in his seat. Actually, I had it written last week, but it was only yesterday that the minister was there and I sent across a letter in wqich I outlined not only the Markland road and the need to have some money allocated for it this year, I also sent across to. the minister a piece of barite, but that has to do with his other portfolio as Minister of Mines.

I will talk about that on some other occasion. But, Mr. Speaker, the minister is well aware of all of the dirt roads in the district of Bellevue.

I wrote him a letter last week and hand delivered it yesterday here in the Legislature and, as I said in my letter, if enough funds cannot be found to do all of the dirt roads in the district of Bellevue, we understand it - 'I understand it, the people in the district understand it- but, if there is enough money found,to spread it around the Province equitably and fairly, if there is enough money found to do a co?ple of miles of road in Markland during this construction season then, of course, the peopie will understand that they cannot get it all in one shot.

But fairness and equity will be served to these people if enough money is found to do, as I said, upgrading on some of the road. And, of course, if a couple of miles that are already ready for paving can be done this year, I am sure that the people would be very happy indeed. I understand, I believe that there are 3,400 kilometers of dirt road in this Province. That is about - what? - 1801

April 4, 1984 Tape 670 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: That is about 2,000 miles of dirt road in the Province. But even if the people in Markland, Mr. Speaker, could only get a couple of miles, $200,000 or $300,000 or $400,000 out of this year's budget, then I am sure the people in Markland will be happy, Mr. Speaker. At least a start will have been made and perhaps next year a finish can be made. Mr.

Speaker, in the five minutes that I have, I support this petition and I trust that the minister will support it as well, not only verbally but by putting his money where his mouth is and that, of course, means doing something constructive for them. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): I recognize the hon. the Minister of Transportation. I have to remind him that, it being Private Member's Day, except, of course, by lec;~ve, he only has until 4:00 p.m. Transportation. MR. DAWE: long. The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, I will not take too I certainly support the praye~ of the petition presented by the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan). I did indeed receive his letter yesterday and I did indeed receive the sample of barite from Colliers Point. Mr. Speaker, some of the things that I have been saying in response to similar petitions and to delegations that I have met with over the past number of years seems to be sinking in and a realization occurring in the minds of han . members opposite that we do have a monumental job ahead of us in this Province as it relates to bringing our transportation system, particu­ larly the road aspect of transportation, up to an acceptable 1802

April 4, 1984 Tap e 670 EC - 3 MR. DA WE: standard, the kind of a standard that Newfound~anders and Labradorians, as canadians, should expect. We have in this Province a very, very sparse population, spread out over a large landmass. I believe, Mr. Speaker, although I would s-tand to be corrected, that we have more miles per capita than any other Province in the country. our population is spread around the coast on the Island of Newfoundland and is . very scattered in the Labrador region of the Province, and we have unusual conditions.

We have extreme highroad construction conditions in the Province; we have extremes of solid rock tq very deep bog to anything in-between. We have stretches of road in the Province that are subject to violent storms. Sometimes we have a stretch of road, for instance, the Burgee road, which covers ninety miles, and about sixty of those miles are relatively easy to maintain under Winter conditions, but the other t:_hirty mi.!es ar~ just ab<?ut _ imp9ssib;t~. So we have those extreme conditions. 1803

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 671 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! I must interrupt the han. member. Does the han. minister have leave to continue? MR. NEARY: Providing that we can get leave to have a second go at it on this side, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS : No. No. MR. NEARY: Oh, yes. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! This arose I think a few days ago, or last week, and the Chair had to rule that cert~inly if leave is given it is given freely and not on any condition.

I understand under normal conditions, of course, somebody else from the Opposition side if it had not been Wednesday would havehad time to reply to the petition. Does the han. member have leave to continue? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is no Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) over there. It is just a point of clarification. There is no Government House Leader over there, Mr. Speaker, they are leaderless. No wonder they are in complete disarray.

Will somebody indicate to us- because we are allowed to have another spokesman on this side to support the petition-will somebody indicate if we give the minister leave that I can have leave to support this petition? MR. DAWE: No, certainly not. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. 1804

April 4, 1984 . MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. MORGAN: Tape No. 671 NM - 2 The hon. Minister of Fisheries • The rules of the House clearly indicate that there can be three speakers on the petition and in this case if the hon. minister now speaking sits someone else can respond from the Opposition. So it is automatic. It is not a condition of the House. MR. NEARY: Okay. Go ahead. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! On Wednesday it is not automatic because Private Member's Day has to begin at four o'clock. That -±s why I asked the House if the hen. Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) could have leave to go beyond four o'clock. MR. NEARY: Okay. By leave. MR. SPEAKER: of Transportation. MR. DAWE: By leave, the hon. Minister Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will not be that much longer. I just wanted to indicate that I do indeed support the prayer of the petition as I do in fact support the aspirations of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians in many areas of the Province. We have a very limited financial resource at our disposal with a great number of requirements and needs right throughout the Province.

We are attempting to address those needs with the money that we have available to us and we will continue to do so. If we are successful in negotiating another fair and equitable cost sharing arrangement with the f~ goverrnent,we will do some of these projects much quicker than we can under our own resources. This is the hope that I have, Mr. Speaker, and members on this side hope that perhaps those in the federal regime will recognize the extra problems 1805

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 671 NM- 3 MR. DAWE: as every royal commission that' has studied transportation in this Province has done in the past, recognize that there are special requirements in this Province and we need additional funding to be able to do that, and we hope to be able to procure that. Mr.

Speaker, just one other point; this year this government, this administration has put forward extra funding to address itself to some ongoing problems, extreme maintenance problems, a recap and rehabilitation programme of existing road networks and also a rehabilitation programme for selected bridges around the Province. And hopefully over a short period of years this will see the recapping and restoration of these projects on a continuous basis. This will allow us some additional funding, Mr.

Speaker, to be able to use in some more of the important areas and I would hope, as I am sure the people who signed the petition, hope that some of that funding may be available for that area. We will have to wait and see how the estimates go through the House, Mr. Speaker, and determine from our priority list which projects will go ahead this year. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Does the hon. Leader of the Opposition have leave to respond to that petition? MR. CARTER: The han. member does not have leave. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I want to be sure. Does the han. Leader of the Opposition have leave? MR.

CARTER: No, he does not. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. 1806

April 4, 1984 MR. NEARY: can you get~ SOME RON. MEMBERS : Tape No. 671 NM - 4 Well, how small and bigoted Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Are you running the House, or is the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) running it? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Mr. Speaker, a point of order. Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the fair minded hon. gentleman there opposite if he approves of the behaviour and the attitude of his colleague? Does he have any control over the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter)?

We were good enough to grant leave for five minutes for the minister to support or respond to the petition. Under the rules, as hon. members know, we can have another spokesman on this side, but the hon. gentleman said, no to leave. Now what is the view of the Government House Leader on that? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the President of the Council to that point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am nonplussed by the complimentary remarks made by the hon. gentleman. I am almost in ecstasy. But I can say to the hon. gentleman that every member in this House is a member. 1807

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 672 MJ - 1 !~R. SPEAK'F.P. (Russell) Orrl.er, ':1len.se! '!'he :r-oint of orde~ rnir;ed. ~ v the han. the r,eader of the O:r?posi tion (I'~r. Near:vl reall:V •:1as not a valid point of order. :r !'!'lUSt r~neat again thc;t leave has not been ~ranted. --- m~ .. ~:rEARY : ! knou •.·!hat to r1o fro:r"\ no• ·r on, !'.r. Spe".ker. M...~. SPEll-XE~: Being Private Member's Day,we shall continue with Motion 7. The debate last day was adjourned by the han. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), ~V'ho is not in his seat today. I am assuming somebody will want to carry on. MR. NEARY' }tr.

Speaker, I woulo like to ca-rr y on. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, once again I rise in this han. Ho»se to address the question of offshore oil resources and the necessity for the pro vincial government · to reach a negotiated settlement with Ottawa as far as the development of these resources are concerned. This administration, as han. members know, won two mandates now on a promise to reach an agreement with Ottawa and yet it has failed to deliver on these promises.

Han. members wil1 recall that in the 1972 provincial general election,it was a one issue election, one issue and one issue only, and that was to - MR. TOBIN: What year? MR. NEARY: On April 6, 1982. MR. TOBIN: You said 1972. MR. NEARY: No, 1982. The hon. gentleman should listen. 1808

April 4, 1984 Tc>.pe ~To. 672 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: It was a one issue election, one issue and one issue only, and that was to get an offshore agreement, Mr. Speaker, and they have failed to deliver on that agreement. If anything, judging by the rhetoric of the Premier and his Minister of Energy on the offshore (Mr. Marshall), we are further away from a settlement now, Mr. Speaker, than ever before. They want Ottawa apparently to completely capitulate and agree with all their pre-conditions and terms and then perhaps they would be willing to sign on the dotted line.

And as one of their many infamous propaganda brochures so graphically illustrated recently, Mr. Speaker, I believe it was called writer's cramp. For so long this administration has told · 'the people of this Province that if they could not get the pres .ent Liberal administration in Ottawa to settle on terms acceptable to the administration there opposite 1 then all the people will have to do is wait for a change of government in Ottawa. They were told to wait until after the next federal election. So sure were they, Mr.

Speaker, of the changing of the guard in Ottawa, so sure were they that there would be a new regime in Ottawa that they felt that they would get their day in the sun, as they call it 1 the Tory way, the sunshine way, that all they would have to do is to just wait for the administration to change in Ottawa. Now it looks, Mr. Speaker, that it was only a false hope and that once more the great balloon of expectations has burst.

The new Tory leader, the man who devastatied Labrador West while he \'las President of the Iron Ore Company of Canada 1 will not deliver the much­ coveted ownership of the offshore which the Premier and the Minister of Energy want. Like the present Liberal administration, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Mulroney can only do so through a 1809

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 672 MJ - 3 t·L~ . NEARY: Constitu tional amendment which requires the approval of seven of the Canadian 9rovinces and SO per cent of the population of Canada. Mr. Speaker, even if this were done by either a Liberal or a Tory administration,it would have to be the same for all the coastal provin ces also. ~··r. <:;oei\ket', ! ~elieve, unfortunately,central Canada woul d not approve; that is, either Ontario or Quebec or both. 1810

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 673 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Given the present state of our relations with Quebec over the hydro issue in Labrador 1 I do not think that Quebec's support for such a constitutional amendment will be forth­ coming, Mr. Speaker, in the very near future. So, Mr. Speaker, what is left for Newfoundland to as·sume legal ownership of the offshore? This administration tells us that both Ottawa and Newfoundland 1 under the new· Constitution 1 could . enter into a bilateral agreement giving Newfoundland the much sought after ownership. But really, Mr.

Speaker, would either a Tory or a Liberal administration in Ottawa be willing to be courageous enough to do this in the wake of two court decisions confirming Ottawa •·s ownership, to give Newfoundland through the backdoor what it could not achieve through the front doors of the Supreme Court in Newfoundland and in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker? Is that what they expect to happen? The prospect is very unlikely indeed of thi·s ever happening. Mr. Mulroney has already said that he will not do this and thus· he has adopted the same position as the present Liberal administration in Ottawa.

So after many stormy seas and winds, Mr. Speaker,, the administration there opposite, the ship of state, has· arrived back in the same old port and the people of Newfoundland are no longer willing to set sail with this administration again. So what options, Mr. Speaker, are left open to the present administration on the offshore? Formal owners·hlp of the offshore is out of the ques·tion. Th.e oil companies and the federal government are now going ahead and planning the development of the offshore.

Mooil Oil has· awarded a contract to s·tudy the possibility of using concrete platforms in the production stage of the development. And again Mobil is now i.nvolved in its environmental impact study for the federal government. 1811

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 673 so - 2 MR . NEARY: COGLA has stated that within the next year or so there will be at least ten to twelve rigs working off the Grand Banks. Halifax is now speeding ahead of St. John's as a site for servicing the offshore, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, wfta,t I' am saying is that development is going ahead in spite of the stubborn position of the administration there opposite.

Newfoundland workers and firms will sti~ oe given first preference in the offshore under the development now being supervised by the federal government,. so tilere is no question of Ottawa ~s commitment that it will keep the interests of the NewfoundlanO. people uppermost in its mind in this development. Mr. Speaker, r can assure you that we Liberals, the Liberals in thls Province, wl:ll not make the same mistake as did the provincial Tories . when our forthcoming Leadership Convention is held in Ottawa this June. 1812 ...

April 4, 1984 MR. PATTERSON: the Province? ~l.l:R. r1ARSHALL: Tape 674 PK - 1 How many Liberals are there in Are you reading that? MR. NEARY: No, I am not reading. I have a few notes just to remind me of what I want to say. Mr . Speaker, unlike the Tories 1 we will demand of every leadership candidate that they come to Newfoundland and state categorically to the people of this Province exactly what they are prepared to offer Newfoundland and Labrador, what they are prepared to offer us, Mr. Speaker, and where they stand on the offshore• Mr.

Speaker, that is where the Tories there opposite,and the Tories of this Province who went to the Leadership Convention and saw Mr. Mulroney elected leader, that is where they missed the boat completely. Mr. Speaker, the next leader of the Liberal Party will become Prime Minister of Canada. And it is very important for us Liberals ' to get a commitment from the next Prime Minister of Canada, from the leadership candidates, Mr. Speaker- MR. STAGG: question? MR.

NEARY: Would the han. member permit a -to get a firm commitment,whether it be a handshake or whether it be in writing,that we get a firm commitment from all the candidates as to what they will do for Newfoundland, Canada as a whole. But the Tories did not do that when they went to their Leadership Convention, they missed the boat. And, Mr. Speaker, we intend to do that. At some point in time we hope to get all of the leadership candidates in the Province and we will ask them to state their position on certain issues concerning Newfoundland, especially the offshore. 1813

April 4, 1984 Tape 674 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we in the Liberal Party unlike the Tories, we Liberals in this Province, Mr. Speaker, will not trust to some backroomwheeling and dealing among the leading contenders for the leadership 1as the Tories did last year. We not put some mythical hope, Mr. Speaker, in any of our representatives now in Ottawa that they .will deliver the goods if we just trust them without any public guarantee that they will deliver. We want each Liberal candidate to state clearly and in detail where they stand on revenue sharing, Mr.

Speak~rr where they stand on joint management, and where they stand on an equalization formula for scaling down the equalization payments to this Province once oil is being produced and revenues are accruing from the production of oil. These are the three main issues, Mr. Speaker, that the candidates must address before they get our support. Let me repeat the three main issues as I see themirevenue sharing, joint management, and a formula for phasing down or phasing out equalization grants to this Province,Mr. Speaker. must be addressed. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): President of the Council.

These are the main issues that Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. A point of order, the han. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the han . gentleman is a veteran and he knows. I quote page 101 of Beauchesne "It is a rule that a Member must address the Bouse orally, and not read from a written, previously prepared speech." Now if the han. gentleman is uncomfortable in addressing 1814

April 4, 1984 Tape 674 PK - 3 MR. MARSHALL: this issue-whic.h he is very uncomfortable with-we will permit him, Mr. Speaker, to continue to read his speech if he would like to tell us who wrote it for h~m. ~!IR. CARTER: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : By leave! Order, please! To that point of order: The han. President of-t the Council (Mr. Marshall) is correct, that is not permitted to read speeches in the House of Assembly,but each han. member is permitted to use notes,and ex~ensive notes if necessary. The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Thank you, ·Mr. Speaker. We saw the skinful of hate coming out again.

The han. gentleman cannot stand the heat. Heknows, Mr. Speaker, that my speech is very statesmanlike, it is above partisan politics. It is common sense. J.!lffi. BUTT: Who wrote it? MR. NEARY: If I were the han. gentleman,I would go out and start learning how to read and write. MR. STAGG: a question? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. Would the han. gentleman permit No , I will not permit a question, I am not going to be distracted from what I am saying, Mr. Speaker, I am going after big garre, and not rabbit tracks from Stephenville .. MR. STAGG: No need to b;~ insulting. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is - in case the han. gentleman does not understand me - that we will put the interest of our Province above any personal preference for any candidate, at least I will. 1815

April 4, 1984 Tape 674 PK - 4 MR. l·10RGAN : (Inaudible) declared, that is the point. MR . NEARY : W e ~l, llr . Speaker, ,that is his right, by the way , he has the right tp do that. He may have jumped the gun,but he has a right to do that. Now, Mr . Speaker, personally I intent to put the interest of Newfoundland and Labrado r b efore any pers onal preference for one of the candidates . And I repeat , Mr.

Speaker, Newfoundland's interest must come first ~ I have appealed to Liberals,as hon . gentlemen know, in this Province who may be going to the the convention in Gttawa in June as delegates 1 to use whatever influence they have to persuade Liberals not to commit themselves too early, Mr.Speaker 1 181 6

April 4, 1984, Tape 675, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: that we have it in our harids to change the course of history in this Province, and that is what we must keep uppermost in our minds. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, an offshore deal must be signed, in my opinion, and signed soon. Our economy is in the worst shape it has ever experienced since the 1930s. Increasing numbers of our people want work, and they want work more than ever before. But there is no employm~nt to be found. The offshore is one means to help the Newfoundland and Canadian economies out of the doldrums -and the mire that we now find ourselves in. Mr.

Speaker, I appeal to this administration again_to sit down with Ottawa and try to hammer out and negotiate a settlement that is good for both Newfoundland and Canada. Now, Mr. Speaker, how can hon. gentlemen there opposite say that that is not a fair position for us to take? DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: I.have gone public. It is hot air, though. It is not hot air. Mr. Speaker I cannot help it if factions develop, I can only state that the executive board of the Liberal Party met last weekend and this was our stated position. HR. WINDSOR: What was that? MR.

NEARY: That we will put the interests of Newfoundland and Labrador before our personal preference for a candidate in the Leadership. In other words, there are those of us who will demand commitments. They do not have to be in writing, they can be oral or a handshake, or they can be in writing, but we want commitments on three things: revenue sharing, a formula for the equalization grants, and a management committee. MR. SIMMS: That sounds familiar. It sounds like outs. 1817

April 4, 1984, Tape 675, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, they can ridicule it and they can poke fun at it all they '•rant, but the fact of the matter is that it is essential. Mr. Speaker, I have to say that I support the amendment, the amendment to the resolution made by my colleague, the member fa~ Mount Scio(Mr.

Barry), and I hope,as a result of my few remarks this afternoon, that I have persuaded some hon. gentlemen there opposite to be statesmen, to be honest with them­ selves, forget the 'group think' position they find themse~ves in, forget the paranoia, and forget the · schizophrenia and get up like men, Mr. Speaker, and vote on this resolution according.to the dictates of their conscience and not allow themselves to be persuaded by the political rhetoric and game-playing of the Premier and the Minister of Energy(Mr. Marshall), the 'group think' attitude that they have on that side of the House. AN HON.

MEMBER: A new word. MR. NEARY: It is a new word and I have a definition of it here and I am going to read it tomorrow. I am going to read the definition tomorrow and the hon. gentleman, when I read the definition, will hang his head in shame. MR. SIMMS: MR. NEARY: You read it the other day. No, J "lid not. Mr. Speaker, so here we have it.

Let han. members get up and vote according to the dictates of their conscience, let them base their decision on the wishes of their constituents and not on the 'group think' attitude that they have, where they all follow along like lapdogs behind their leader, paranoid and schizophrenic. So we will have to wait and see what happens Mr. Speaker. I am going to support the amendment and I am going to vote against the resolution which is nothing but a harangue of political rhetoric and game-playing. I believe 1818

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 676 SD - 1 HR. NEARY: the people of this Province, Hr. Speaker, are sick and tired of squabbling and fighting and arguing and confrontation politics, they are sick and tired of the Premier not being in this House to debate these issues. He will use any excuse to get out of his office. Not only is he probably the most greedy Premier in our whole history, he is probably one of the laziest in the history of this Province. And excuse will do to have his picture taken, to get out of his office so he ~vill not have to work.

What we should be doing is logging the number of days the Premier spends in his office and the number of hours that they spend down on the eighth floor at Cabinet meetings trying to solve the problems of this Province. DR. COLLINS: Thousands of hours. HR. NEARY: You will discover, Mr. Speaker, it is not thousands·. You have the most greedy and the laziest Premier in the whole history of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS ~ Oh, oh.. HR. NEARY: You know, as bad as Hr. Moores was 1 he delivered and produced more than the present administration, as bad as· he was.

And God only knows he had the name of a playboy Premier and several other things, but he managed to get a few things done and that is more than you can say about the administration there opposite, Hr. Speaker. Greed and laziness~ Any excuse! Now he is· gone down to Labrador. He will not meet with the unions, he will not meet with the town councils, he is gone down to address a Tory gathering so he can squirt some more propaganda out, Hr • Speaker, get another broadsides out at somebody._ MR. YOUNG: It is a big gathering - 400 to 500 people. MR. NEARY: Yes, no doubt it is a big gathering. HR.

SPEAKER CAy-lward}: Order, please!' 1819

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 676 SD - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, I support the amendment and not the resolution. MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SIMMS: The hon. Minister of Culture, Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, first of all, if I may, I would like to make a brief comment about·something that is not related to the resolution. I am sure the Leader of the Opposition (Nr.

Nearyt would permit me the opportunity of passing along congratulations in particular to the local CBC station here for winning that Actra Award last nigh.t, which is the firs·t, by the way, ever for Newfoundland for a production of a film Gilbert in the series The Undaunted. Now you will recall the Leader of the Opposition, of course, did not have much interest in Gilbert last year at all,but he will probably come out now full square and support the CBC and congratulate them and everything on this wonderful series· that they produced-whi.ch it was, by the ~·rav, Mr. Speaker. So I want to congratulate CBC.

Tom Cahill in particular was the writer and producer,and Wayne Guzzwell was the director and, of course, local Newfoundland actors and actres·s·es performed in that particular performance. I want to specifically mention the acceptance speech by Mr. Guzzwell on :Oehalf of the CBC here. I thought it was a tremendous speech and I remember his words very vividly, his acceptance words·, when he said he held up this Nelly and he mentioned that it was the first ever for Newfoundland. And you could see that he was· beaming with excitement and enthusiasm and he said, 'This is for Newfoundland'.

And I will tell you it almost brough.t tears to my eyes just 1820

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 6 7 6 SD - 3 MR. SIMMS: to see him make that speech. So I want to take the opportunity while I am on my feet, if I may, Mr. Speaker, to express my congratulations to the CBC for winning that Actra Award. Mr. Speaker, to get to the resolution which was so ably presented by my colleague; the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Hr. Hearn) last >-Teek, I -- ---- - - -- ··- want, . first of all, to indicate my whole-hearted support for the resolution and address very quickly the amendment put forth by the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barryt last week when he spoke in the debate.

The amendment, of course, rs unnecessary, totally ridiculous and irrelevant 1 so there- fore it is not even worthy of comment let alone vote. So I will not be supporting the amendment by any stretch of the imagination. r know · the member for Mount Scio is absolutely surprised to hear that. DR. COLLINS: He did not like it either. ·MR. SIMMS: In any event, yes, and aside from all of that, r did not like it. Now I listened very intently to some of th .e comments of the Leader of the Opposition LMr. Neary1 and tried to listen to the arguments that he put forth.

AnQ I' realize, of course, there are two sides to almost any argument, to any debate, and I grant him his right to put forth that argument. I do not agree with it. He obviously knows -that. But throughout the course of his comments · there were some points that he made, 1821

April 4, 1984 Tape 677 EC - 1 MR. SIMMS: tried to make, at least, that I really could not address myself to at all. For example, one of the first things we noticed throughout the course of his remarks was this word 'group think' that he had been throwing in the debate for the last several days. MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMS: I will give you a copy of that. It is obviously a brand new word that he picked up somewhere about five or six days ago, but from the number of times he has used it in this House over the last four or five days, he ob~iously has beaten it to death. He says he is going to qive ns t!:le r1efinition MR.

NEARY: You can use it on Nazi Germany, Israel, Bay of Pigs; there are all kinds of places you can use it. MR. SP EAKE R (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. SIMMS: Well, I am sure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is very familiar with those places and people from those places; he would be an expert on it, I suppose. You know, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), his tactic is the same as it always is in any debate. When he has no substance to put forth in an argument, what does he do?

He attacks members on this side personally, talks about their incompetence or talks about their laziness or whatever the case might be, and specifically, the tactic now, which is a tactic accep~ed by other members on that side, is to attack the Premier, of course, obviously, the leader of the government, to try to somehow suggest that the Premier is not doing a good job or not working hard and these kinds of things. But I suggest to the Leader of the Opposition that this tactic is easily recognizable and well-known by the people around the Province. 1822

April 4, 1984 Tape 677 EC - 2 MR. SIMMS: He talks about us going out and speaking on behalf of our constituents and talking to our constituents. Well, I can assure the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) that that is one point that has been raised to me frequently by many of my constitu­ ents and they recognize very clearly what their objective is, which is to attack personally, and that they lack substance in any of their arguments or debate. Now, I will try to address some of the points raised by the Leader of the Opposition concerning the necessity of obtaining an agreement on the offshore.

He talked about ownership. Well, of course, he is very well aware by now that we have agreed to move on the issue of ownership, that is not a major point now in the debate, nor in the argument, nor in the discussions. He says that he and his party-although I am not sure he is supported totally by everybody on the other side when he says this - that they are going to hold back their support for their favourite leadership candidate until they have an opportunity to see where they stand on the issue of ~he offshore. Well, we had one leadership ~andidate down here, I think, just last week, Mr.

Donald Johnston. ,He spoke at the university, as I understand it. DR. COLLI~JS : He is out. MR. SIMMS: Yes, I would say he is out by now. He strongly supported Mr. Trudeau's position on the offshore. Now, it will be interesting to see how the rest of them come forth with their positions. I notice the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) is wearing John Munro's button. I am not sure what Mr. Munro's position is on the offshore, but he must be satisfied. MR. TOBIN: :t-Iow nany conventions is that going to be for soT'!e ;::e::r;::le o;::;:::os.:;.te in a twelve mont:,. soan? 1823

April 4, 1984 Tape 677 EC - 3 MR. SIMMS: I do not know, Mr. Speaker, ~·1hat the han. member is sayingt __ 1 I am not going to be side­ tracked 1-:Jy ra'Y.Jits 1 - is t~at ha'l it e10es? - 1'·"'J.~;>.n I am after elePhants. 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: In any event, Mr. Speaker, first of all, I want to say that we on this side and certainly I, personally, am awfully disappointed with the recent ruling of the Supreme Court of Canada which ruled that the ownership and control of our resources offshore on the Continental Shelf belong to the federal government, the Government of Canada.

I think I am quite free in expressing that disappointment and I hope that it is shared by members on the other side, because, in my own opinion - and I feel very strongly about this regardless of any strict, legal

interpretation on the question of ownership- one very important fact remains, in my opinion,and that is that this Province upon entering Confederation in 1949, brought the Grand Banks of Newfoundland into Canada, and if the people of Newfoundland and Labrador at that time had decided not to join Confederation with Canada,then I feel quite certainthat 1824

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 678 MJ - l ~.m. SIMHS: the federal government would have no legal claim to any of the resources found on this Province's Continental Shelf. l,1r. Speaker, Ne,vfoundland and Labrador presently suffers from the highest unemployment, and our standard of living 1of course 1is somewhat lm.,er than that presently enjoyed by other Canadians,to sav the least. }).Il'J,as my han. friend's resolution says .:~.nd correctly points out, we want to reverse this particular situation and achieve a measure of prosperity that is equal to that enjoy.ed by other Canadians.

However,we do not want prosperity that is measured by the amount of federal transfer payments or equalization payments sent our way on a platter by the Government of Canadc> , ,,re •t~ant to base that prosperity on the development of our own natural resource;;. Fndi _f we are to prosper and reach the economic level, l1r.

Speaker, where our standard of living is equal to that of other Canadians,then we have to do everything in our power to ensure that our fishery, our forestry, our mining, our hyd~o and our offshore resources are develo ped in such a way that the people of this Province can establish a strong economic base right here in Newfoundland and Labrador , anc' only then, !~r. Sneaker, can we pay our own way or be able to make a viable contribution to the Country of Canada. Mr.

Speaker, we all know that this administration has tried on numerous occasions to reach some type of reasonable agreement which would be acceptable to both this Province and the federal government. We have consistently negotiated in good faith and all members of this han. House,I believe,know the facts related to those discussions regardless of what some try to claim. 1825

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 678 MJ - 2 MR. SHiMS: During the last round of negotiations, Mr. S~eaker, we did everything we could to reach an equitable agreement but we all know what happened. •·"'hat the federal side offered by word of mouth they were unable to cormi:ti t to writing .. llnr1 I said to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) early in the deba.te, when I first started my few comments, that I recognize that everybody has the right to express an opinion and that there are always two sides to an argurnent,but I say to the Leader of the Opposition and to me~bers opposite that it may be true that there are two sides to every question,but it is also true that there are two sides to a sheet of flypaper and it makes a very', very big difference to the fly w·hich side he chases.

I think those are words that the members opposite could carefully consider because we believe that we are on the right side and we shall continue to defend our position in that particular regard. ~1r. Speaker, on January 24, 1983, some fifteen months ago, the President of the Council, the Minister responsible for the offshore (Mr. Marshall), wrote to his federal counterpart, Mr. Chretien, and pointed out that during those discussions. there han been considerable progress made.

In fact,negotiations ~a~ progressed so well that both ministers agreed to refer some of the matters under discussion to their respective negoti·ating teams. But then, Mr. Speaker, what happened? The bottom dropped out of the negotiations, Mr. Chretien could not deliver in writing ~That he had agreed to verbally in the meetings that he had with Mr. Harshall. The minister, Hr.

Marshall, asked for clarification in writing to some seventeen points, which we have heard lots about,by the way, but what we have not heard and what we have not had emphasized by anybody on that side of the House is the fact that these points had been agreed to verbally by both 1826

April 4, 1984 Tape No . 678 MJ - 3 MR. SIMl-'.S: ministers. And today, Mr. Speaker, fifteen months later and still counting, Mr. Chretien has not offered anything in reply or response to that letter. N0\'1 that, Mr . Speaker, to ne is proof of which side was negotiating in good faith and which side has the best interest of Newfoundlanders at heart. Mr. Speaker, on April 6, 1982, the people of this Province gave this qover.nment an overwhelming mandate to ensure t."'at the natm::al re~ources of this Province be developed so as to provide maximum social and economic benefits for the residents of this Province . 1827

April 4, 1984, Tape 679, Page 1 -- apb MR. SIMMS: I believe that we have to stand firm in our resolve to obtain those maximum benefits. We must not betray our heritage and our birthright, and we must not betray the mandate given to us by the people of this Province. We must not sacrifice the future of our children and our .. children's children simply to gain a short-term advantage if, indeed, there is a short-term advantage to be gathered. The motion that we are debating today makes reference, .as well, to the fact that the Prairie Provinces were given control of their natural resources back in 1930.

And we all know that Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba were not given control of these resources when they were created as Provinces, but in 1930 the federal government of the day, wishing to I establish a country of equal provinces, and also wanting to alleviate some of the economic stress caused by the Great Depression, did, indeed, give the Prairie Provinces control of all their natural resources, and that control of natural resources was then transferred by way of a constitutional amendment. Well, why, Mr. Speaker, why, may I ask, should it be any diffe~ent today here in Newfoundland and Labrador?

Are we any different as a Province, or any less important a Province than Alberta, Saskatchewan or Manitoba? And I think that any fair­ minded Canadian who ask themselves that question, Mr. Speaker, must answer, certainly not: We deserve to be treated in the same fair manner as our sister provinces were back in 1930. Now, we have indicated as a government, Mr.

Speaker, that we are willing to put the issue of ownership aside, and also that we are willing to settle for less than complete control, and all we ask is a fair share of the revenues derived from production, and some say in management whereby the interests of our people 1828

April 4, 1984, Tape 679, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMS: can be protected without infringing on national goals. There has been a lot of talk, Mr. Speaker, in recent weeks and months about who is most capable of managing the offshore, and then, of course, developing the deposits in such a way so that all Newfoundlanders will benefit. Mr. Chretien believes the offshore will be developed with this Province's interests in mind. Well, Mr. Speaker, I say that is easily said and easily promised, but judging by Mr. Chretien's record, I doubt very much if he can ever deliver on that promise.

And all we have to do is look at some other examples of how the Government of Canada have protected the interests of Newfoundlanders in the past. We only have to take a short look at two other great resources, the fishery and our hydroelectric power. And even recently, Mr. Speaker, to give some indication of the commitment of the federal government to this Province in the development of the offshore resources -I recall reading last week where John Roberts is another leadership candidate.

It would be good to put the question to him~ it has just announced the establishment of an offshore training school, an offshore training centre, but where, Mr. Speaker? In Nova Scotia. In Nova Scotia. Come By Chance is another perfect example. Both of these are examples of the kind of commitment that the federal government has to this Province with respect to the offshore, I suggest to hon. members. So, Mr. Speaker, that is how the federal government protects the interests of Newfoundland and Labrador. Few provinces in this country are as rich in natural resources, Mr.

Speaker, as Newfoundland and Labrador, but we still remain the poorest province in the country. And if the federal government 1829

April 4, 1984, Tape 679, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIMMS: does as much for Newfoundland when developing our offshore resource s as they did when helping us with our fishery, and our hydro power - DR . COLLINS: God help us all! MR . SIMMS: - then all I can say, Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Finance{Dr. Collins) just said, is God help us all! Now, here we are, Mr .

Speaker, in 1984, thirty -five years after Confederation, but even after thirty -five years of Confederation the federal government's attitude toward this Province bas changed little, not one iota, and today we once again find our ­ selves in that all too familiar position of having to fight and struggle and scrape what was given to other provinces as a natural course of history. There are some among us, Mr. Speaker, who wou~d suggest and advocate the position that we should give in now and sign a deal similar to that 1830

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 680 NM - 1 MR. SIMMS: signed by Nova Scotia. In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that would prove to be disastrous. It would be a sellout of our culture and our heritage, and our way of life.

And I just refer han. members briefly to a recent opinion ~s outlined in the board's report, this federal/provincial board set up by the Province of Nova Scotia and the federal government to assess the social and economic impact of the venture development in Nova for the Province of Hova Scotia and it is a damning indictment on what has happened in Nova Scotia and what the members opposite want us to sign today. They listened to a litany of complaints from all over the Province, this board did, and they said that Mobil's company's construction

schedule would prevent most Nova Scotia firms from bidding on the work, that Mobil and both levels of government had exaggerated the projects benefits, that Mobil was withholding crucial information from the public and that the timing of this panel zone review prevented proper public participation. And they say that the most important benefits, Mr.

Speaker, from that development are not taxes or royalties or even short-term ' construction jobs, the crucial thing is that venture should contribute something lasting to Nova Scotia's economy, that it should teach Nova Scotia's workers new skills, and that it should enable Nova Scotian companies to handle new kinds of jobs. Now, Mr. Speaker, that sounds awfully familiar to me as a position that has long been advocated by this government, and by this Premier 1 and this side of the House. And the opposite is true of the members opposite.

They want us to sign that kind of an agreement, which has been damned by a federal/provincial board made up of a Nova Scotia representative, and a federal government representative. 1831

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 680 NM - 2 . MR. SIMMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I believe that we have consistently illustrated that we are determined to maintain some control on all of our resources and then to develop them to provide the most benefit to the people of this Province. But if we are to pay our way and not become entirely dependent upon equalization,we must first ensure that we develop a strong economic base right here in this Province,not develop at any cost, not develop at full speed ahead and repeat the mistakes of the fifties and sixties.

I call upon all han. members in this House to unanimously support this very important resolution. Certainly we must seek an agreement with the Government of Canada,but any agreement reached,as it says in the resolution put forth by my han. friend, any agreement reached must reflect the principles contained in the Province's latest proposal of January,l983. Mr. Speaker, this administration is determined to reach a fair an·d equitable agreement. And I suggest to han. members in closing that they remember the words of Emerson the poet when he said, "Whatever you do you need courage.

Whatever course you decide upon there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong. There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe your critics are right. To map out a course of action and follow it requires some of the same courage which a soldier needs. Peace has its victories but it takes bFave men to win them." Mr.

Speaker, I quote,to conclude,from a well-known newspaper columnist, a former Leader of the Newfoundland Liberal Party in this Province, who just three weeks ago concluded his column of that day and said to the people of Newfoundland and Lal?rador, "Yes, ladies and gentlemen, Peckford and Marshall are right." And I agree. 1832

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 680 N?-1 - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon . the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN : Mr. Speaker, there is another poet who wrote, "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and I/ Took the vne less travelled by, / And that has made all the difference." And, Mr. Speaker, that is the road that was taken by our Premier . MR. BARRY: It is a dead -end road too. MR. CALLAN: It was less travelled by certainly, but it was the road that was taken by our Premier when he brought the offshore case into the courts, firstly into the Newfoundland Court, and then, of course, subsequently into the Federal Court, the Ottawa Court, 1833

April 4, 1984 Tape 681 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: and on both counts,Mr. Speaker, the Premier lost. .In speaking to this motion before us today, Mr. Speaker, and the amendment made by my colleague . for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) last week, let us look at what it says and let us see what difference there is between this side of the House and the other side. The member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr. Hearn) says "

WHEREAS the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that the ownership and control of Mineral resources on our Continental Shelf belongs to the Government of Canada~'. There is no question about that - about the opening statement in the motion by the member for St. Mary's-The Capes- there is no ·questiofr about that~ thanks to the Premier. The Premier, ~1r. Spe ~ k ~ in 1982 went to the people of this Province with evangelical type speeches across this Province bluffing the people, telling the people how strong a case we had.

There was no question that we would win our case. 'We have all of the documented evidence~ he said. If we cannot get a fair deal from successive ministers in Ottawa then we have no choice onl y to put our case in the courts. But we will win.' · This was the big lie that the premier perpetrated on the people of this Province in 1982 in the high school in Norman's Cove and all over the Province ,., We would not be going to court if we did not have a strong case. We will win it, and, of course, once we prove it is ours then it will be a lot easier for us to negotiate with those bad boys in Ottawa." Even then, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the Premier knew that we did not have a good case, but he wanted to use it as an election platform. 1834

·. April 4, 1984 Tape 681 PK - 2 MR. CALLAN: it, swallowed it up because the issue,of course,was motherhood. It was based on emotion, yo.urself in the flag, on gathering around the Premier 7 Newfoundlanders fighting this bad,outside enemy 10ttawa 1that was trying to take our birthright from us. So there is no . question, Mr. Speaker, about the opening statement made by the member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr. Hearn) in his motion that the Continental Shelf belongs to the Government of Canada.

He says secondly, "WHEREAS Newfoundland's high unemployment rate, a high rate of taxation and a comparatively low level of services"- we have all three of these for sure, Mr. Speaker. The ·member for St. Mary's-The Cape of the lack of control which the Province exercises over its resources~· Mr. Speaker, that may be partly over some of our resources. We heard the c'Iinister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) addressing a group downtown a month ago and the Hinister of Forest Resources and Lands praised some of the minister~ in Ottawa.

And he was kind of suggesting to me that he did not have any trouble negotiating with ministers in Ottawa. 1835

April 4, 1984 Tape 682 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: Perhaps the ministers from this Province who had difficulty, it was not because Ottawa was all bad. Perhaps it is because the ministers in this province are not all good, perhaps they are bad as well. Mr. Spe .ker, we saw some changes in Ottawa. We saw two different ministers who tried to negotiate with the present minister responsible for the offshore (Mr. Marshall). Is it possible that these two ministers were wrong and this minister right? Is it possible that everybody in Canada in wrong, everybody else is wrong and the minister is right? Not very likely, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier talks about how his government has a good record for negotiating. And, of course, he points to ERCO and the renegotiation of the ERCO contract. But the Premier must have difficulty spouting out that kind of trash, Mr. Speaker, because he knows that iu was the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barryh who now sits on this side of the Legislature, it was he, as minister, who negotiated that contract, and, of course, it is he, the same member, Mr. Speaker, who now sits on this side of the Legislature.

It was he who could have made a deal with Ottawa, but it was he who was forced to resign his ministry because he did not like the way that the Premier wanted things done; his way or nobody's way is the way the Premier has got it, Mr. Speaker. So, in the second 'Whereas' of this resolution, the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hearn) ta~ks about the lack of control that the Province exercises over its resources, which is not true, of course. We do have some control, and what a 1836

April 4, 1984 Tape 682 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: mess we have made of these controls, Mr. Speaker. In the . third 'Whereas', the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hearn) says, 'WHEREAS all Newfoundlanders' - I guess he means "and Labradorians" as well - 'WHEREAS all Newfoundlanders want to achieve a measure of prosperity that is based not on federal transfer payments,but on the development of our own natural resources' -that is his third 'Whereas'. Is there anybody on this side of the Legislature, Mr. Speaker, who disagrees with that? No, Mr. Speaker, we all agree.

We all agree that our resources should be developed so that we can get rid of the transfer payment~ or the welfare payments as they are sometimes referred to, from Ottawa. There is no disagreement with that from us on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker. The only disagreement that we have, Mr. Speaker, is with ~espect to the way that negotiations should be conducted. That is the only disagreement.

The fourth 'Whereas': 'W~EREAS the Government of Canada in 1930 consented to and obtained an amendment to the Constitution of Canada providing the Prairie Provinces with the rights to their resources which had the effect of ensuring for each province, not only economic stability but also substantial growth and prosperity' -well, that is a fact, we cannot deny that - 'and

WHEREAS an agreement with the Government of Canada governing the management and development of our offshore resources must be based on fairness' -we agree - must be based on fairness and equity and accommodate our goals relating to employment' - no 1837

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 683 SD -1 MR. CALLAN: disagreement from this side, Mr. Speaker, on that. We agree with all of that· ·'relating to employment, industrial development, the establishment of safeguards against the negative effects of oil and gas'.-I guess, you know, an upheaval in our social fabric is what is referred to there. We agree with all of that, no disao/esrent -'to receive a fair share of related revenues'. We agree, !"r. Speaker, we agree with all of that. rm. 'i-JINDSOR: What do you disagree tlith? ~1R. CALLAN: vle disagree v.d.th the vray that negotiations were taking place.

And, of course, now, here and now on this day, we disagree with the fact that there are no negotiations taking place and apparently no efforts. Of course, -. over the weekend we saw another spectacle which the Premier tried to cover up after by saying, 'No, I did not say that negotiations had broken off with Quebec. I did not say that.' Well 1are negotiations ongoing with Quebec? Of course they are not. What the Premier is doing with Quebec, Mr. Speaker, is the same thing he is doing with Ottawa.

He is hoping and waiting for a change of government in Ottawa and then, of course, hoping that, number one, he can sign a deal with a new Tory Prime Minister regarding our offshore resources and he can also get Mr. Mulroney to talk to Quebec and persuade that government. I assume that is what he is waiting for, If not, what else? But in oath instances, Mr. Speaker, in both cases, the Premier is s·o wrong~ He is play·ing this waiting game. Well, what are you waiting for? Even if the new Prime Minister is Brian Mulroney .then we will have two.

Brians, one federal and one provincial;and, of course, a third in the man who des-troyed our seal fishery, so we ~vill have three Brians· -wt even if we do get a second Brian in Ottawa , is he a good friend of this Province? Recent statements over th.e last week or so have not indicated that. 1838

April 4, 1984 Tape No.683 MR. CALLAN: The Leader of the Tory Party in Ottawa, Mr. ~~ul r oney, apparently is rather wishy-washy on anv stand regarding any matter. A lot you know. SD - 2 HR. CARTER: "ffi. CALLAN: I read the papers and I listen to the television and the radio. I know what I hear and what I read and what I see. Mr. Speaker, the Premier is going to be wrong because even.if he get Brian Mulroney as Prime Minister in Ottawa there is still no guarantee.

Of course, we know the kind of tactics the Premier will use, lie will go up to Ottawa and he will sign his deal and then he will come back and call another election and talk about the wonderful deal that he'has. It could be a deal worse than the one he was offered by Jean Chretien. Who will know the difference?

We will know after the election is over, after the Premier has spent three weeks travelling around this Province giving us. the highlights, the good parts, but it will be after the election is over that we will find out the bad things· like some of the bad things that are coming out now about MacPeck and so on. It will be long after th.e election is over. So, Mr. Speaker, our stand on this· side of the House is this , and this was the amendment made to the motion by the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry)_ last week: Forget these preconditions, forget them.

How can you go and sit down at a negotiating table with precond~tions? HR. CARTER: Give it all away. Give it all away. MR. CALLAN: No, nonsense. MR. CARTER: Give it all away. MR. CALLAN: Nobody ever gave anything away. That is nonsense. There is no such thing as a free lunch let alone anything els·e. Forget the preconditions. 1639

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 684 MJ - 1 MR. CALLAN: Let us sit down and hammer out an agreement through hard negotiating, even if it takes a couple or three or four months it is better than sitting in this Province doing absolutely nothing only buvina time, waitina. I have n feeliFg, Mr. Speaker, that at least half of the 64 per cent who voted for the Premier in 1982 have realized their grave mistake.

Thirty per cent or 35 percent do not realize and will not realize their mistake because they are dyed-in-the-wool Tory, they are anti-Confederate, they will never change their vote anymore than the 35 ?er cent hard-core Liberals will change theirs. If you look at every election result dating back to 1949, . even when the Liberals formed huge majority governments,there was still that base of Tory support. And even, Mr. Speaker, in the last election in 1982 when the Premier elected 44 members to the Legislature, 44 to 8 on this side, even then it was not representative of the popular vote across the Province.

The Premier got 64 per cent, the Liberals got 35 per cent, but even then, even in the big upheaval in 1982 you still had that same base of support across the Province. Well, thank God, Mr.

Speaker, that the people in 1982 who voted with their hearts instead of with their heads, who voted with their emotions rather than thinking through the matter and asking themselves several fundamental questions about what the Premier \11as up to out in the district of Bellevue making empty promises, talking about the money that Bas had in his pocket for a new clinic at Markland adjacent to the hospital and all of that, the rhetoric, thank God that at least half of that 64 per cent that went head over heels for the Prenier in 1982, at least half, have now started and a lot of them have gone a long way,to seeing the ' light, Mr.

Speaker. Thank God for that. 1840

April 3, 1984 Tape No . 684 MJ - 2 t1R . CALIJI.N : Bec ause , Mr . Sp ea k~, the Premier I believe is basing his future ~nd the future of this Province on the wrong premise , on the premise that a new Tory government will be elected in Otta wa in a year or less . But unless the new Tory leader takes a stand on some fundamental issues that aff.ect this count~,then he \•lill be S\'lallort~ed up not only in the leadershil? of the federal Liberals, the leadership euphoria , but also the election euphoria that will follm., because, ~.r .

S9eaker, across canada people are beginning to realize that all of the problems of the last three or four years have not been all Trudeau 's fault as some people ,like John Crosbie, have tried to convince Canadians . Some of ~he problems have to do with 1841

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 685 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: economy, a lot of the problems. They experienced the same problems down in the United States where they have a Tory President, President Reagan. And they experienced some of the same problems over in Great Britain where they have a Tory Prime Minister0 What is her nickname? - the iron lady. MR. NEARY: The iron lady. MR. CALLAN: The iron lady, Mrs. Thatcher.

People are beginning to realize that you cannot have the individual provinces saying,like this Province here1for example, "Well, you know, the reason we are in such a bad mess is because of the world economic depression." You cannot have seven Tory provinces across the country saying that and pointing and blaming everything on Ottawa. I mean,does not the Premier and the administration of this Province have any responsibility for creating employment? MR. NEARY: No, they do not think they have. MR.

CALLAN: And in Ontario, and Alberta and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia and PEI,where they have all of these Tory provincial governments, do they have any responsibility for trying to settle the problems of their individual provinces? And if all the premiers across the provinces were doing well in their provinces1then,of course, Mr. Speaker,_it is only sensible to assume that the country will be in good shape since it is made up of ten provinces, and the Northwest Territories, and the Yukon. HR. CARTER: Your time is up. MR. CALLAN: My time will soon be up and the member can have his flick at it. But, Mr.

Speaker, that is our stand and that was the amendment made by the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) last week, the same gentleman 1842

April 4, 1984 Tape No. 685 MR. CALLAN: who negotiated the ERCO contract, the same gentleman who would have had a negotiated deal for this Province if it was not for the Premier, the same Premier who sat across in another hotel in Montreal - MR. NEARY: With his binoculars. MR. CALLAN: - with his binoculars. I heard the han. Jean Chretien on radio this morning as I was on the way to the Colonial Building. MR. NEARY: What did he do? Did he win the vote? MR. CALLAN: I just heard about five or ten minutes of it. A lady phoned in to ask who walked --- - away from the negotiating table? Is it NM- 2 true what Mr.

Marshall has been telling us in this Province? And of course Jean Chretien denied it. He outlined what happened. MR. CARTER: suppose. MR. CALLAN: And you believe him1 I The only two things that the han. Jean Chretien and the han. member for St. Jchn's North (Mr. Carter) have in common is they think that the refinery is trash., And, of course, in a letter to the editor today a gentleman condemned the member for St. John's North for calling the refinery trash. MR. CARTER: But he agreed with me. MR. CALLAN: And not only that, Mr.

Speaker, but I just came from a meeting downstairs with the Department of Health officials, the minister, and the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), and there was a gentleman who attended that meeting who worked at the refinery right up until 1980. The member for st. John's North says that he visited the refinery in 1977, was given a tour. The member was never down there. 1843

April 4, 1984 MR . CARTER: MR. CALLAN : tour . MR. CARTER: around . Tape No. 685 Nlol - 3 Oh 1 yes I was. The member was never given a Homer White took me MR . CALLAN: He is a singer, is he not? Homer White. Mr. Speaker, that is the only thing that they have in common. But anyway we are talking about something that is gone and finished, .the Come By Chance refinery. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time has expired . MR . CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 1844

April 4, 1984, Tape 686, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The han. the member for Exploits. SOME HON .. MEMBERS: Hear,