Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 42 (27th Legislature, 4th Session)

27-4-42

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGIS LATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o'clock, Monday, March 29th, 1965 Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees 1035 MR. J. D. WATT (Arthur): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Conservation. MR. CL ERK: Your Standing Committee on Agriculture and Conservat:ion beg leave to present the following as their first report. Your Committee met for organization and appointed Mr. Watt as Chairman.

Your Committee recommends that for the remainder of the Session the quorum and this Committee shall consist of seven members. Your Committee has consider ed Bills: No. 22,

an Act to amend The Rivers and Streams Act; No. 30,

an Act to amend The Dairy Act; 31,

an Act to amend The Horned Cattle Purchases Act; 32,

an Act to amend The Agricultural Societies Act; 33,

an Act to amend The Horticultural Society Act:; 34,

an Act to amend The Livestock and Livestock Pro:iucts Act; 35,

an Act to amend The Natural Products Marketing Act; 56,

an Act to amend The Department _of Agriculture and Conservation Act; and has agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfullly submitted. MR. WATT: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Hamiota, that the report of the Committee be received. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills The Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. HON. STER LING R. LYON , Q. C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Fort Garry) introduced Bill No. 102,

an Act to amend The Wildlife Act. HON. STEW ART E. McLEA N, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Dauphin) introduced Bill No. 98,

an Act to amend The Charities Endorsement Act. MR. LYON: Madam Spaaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Welfare, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider the proposed resolutions standing in my name. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Mem ber from Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant -Governor having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resolutions, recommends them to the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: The first resolution.hefore the Committee is: Resolved that it is expedient to. bring in a measure to amend The Mines Act by providing, among other matters, for the appointment of inspectors, as a result of which further expenditures may be required to be paid from a�d out of the Consolidated Fund for remuneration of such inspectors. Resolu tion adopted?

The second resolution is: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting the control of predators and providing, among other matters, that the cost incurred in the ad ministration of the Act be paid from and out of the Consolidated Fund. Resolution adopted? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, this resolution covers what might be described as a multi tude of sins, because it involves an entirely new Predator Control Act, the pi'inciples and de tails of which will be made available to members of the House and discussed at second reading. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution adopted? Committee rise and report.

Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Speaker, the Committee has adopted certain resolutions and has instructed me to report the same. MR. JAl'VlES COW AN, Q. C. (Winnipeg Centre): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan.River, that the report of the Committee be received. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

1036 March 29th, 1965 MR. LYON introduced Bill No. 99,

an Act to amend The Mines Act. MR. LYON introduced Bill No. 101,

an Act respecting the Control of Predators. MADAM SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier and Provincial Treasurer) (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called, I'd like to remind members that tomorrow is the day in which many of us will be going to Brandon. In view of the fact that the expedition starts around a little after seven in the morning, I thought perhaps it might be convenient if I were to propose the adjournment of the House at ten o'clock tonight instead of our usual time, and I would propose to do that. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste.

Rose): Madam Speaker, there will be no objections from this side of the House to that,suggestion. Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to address a question to the First Minister. Has he anything further to report insofar as the negotiations with the City of Winnipeg and the Government of Canada regarding the Pan-Am Games? , MR. ROBLIN: I can't add to my statement of the other day yet, Madam Speaker. MR.

MOLGAT: Before the Orders of the Day I'd like to address a question to the Mini ster of Mines and Natural Resources and before so doing I'd like to express my good wishes to him .in seeing him back in the House and hope that his health will continue. My question, Madam Speaker, refers to a statement that he made on the 2nd of March, Page 159 of Hansard, when he indicated that the penned report that he had from the Legislative Counsel regarding the Expropriation Act would be followed by a written submission and that he would table this. I wonder if he has that written submission and if he could table it. MR.

LYON: First of all, Madam Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his remarks concerning my health. I hasten to assure him that all is well and that we hope all will continue to be well. There was tabled, when my honourable friend asked for it, a notation by the Legislative Counsel to myself with respect to the powers of expropriation. I believe there was a subsequent typewritten form of the same document presented, but I don't believe there is any substantial change in it. If that is required I can see if it's available and have it tabled. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, a subsequent question.

The penned one that I have has no date on it and no indication and I think it would be preferable in this case to have a dated proper submission, and this is what the Minister had indicated. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhine land): Madam Speaker, I'd like to direct a question either to the Minister of Education or the First Minister, whoever can answer. Is it the intention of the government to bring forward legislation to amend The Public Schools Act permitting credit unions to qe depositories, or act as depositories for school funds? HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli): The answer is "no", Madam Speaker.

MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Madam Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Public Works. When will the traffic lights be constructed in Assiniboia area in the Kirkfield Park, since there was another serious accident last Saturday? HON. WALTER WEIR (Minister of Public Works) (Minnedosa): Madam Speaker, I'm not in a position to say. MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St.

Georg e) : Madam Speaker before we call the Orders of the Day, it's appropriate that we should recognize the accomplishments of the Leo Johnson rink which has provided Manitoba with a triple crown of curling by winning the Dominion Curling, Senior Curling Men's championship. Leo Johnson and Marno Frederickson, Cliff Wise and Fred Smith. We've already won the Brier and the Ladies, and now we've won the Senior Championship.

However, I'm sure that the Minister of Education will agr ee with me that we really had no doubt that they would win it in view of they had such stalwarts as Johnson and Frederickson on the rink. HON. ROBERT G. SMELLIE, Q. C. (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtle-Russell): ... ... where the Honourable Member for St. George was on Saturday night when many of us were at the CPR station to welcome this rink back to Winnipeg. MR. GUTTORMSON: I'd just like to answer that. My wife's uncle is a member of the rink and he understood perfectly why w� weren't there. MR.

ROBLIN: , .•...... surprised my honourable friend has raised the question. A MEMBER: His wife told him to. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Madam Speaker, I have three questions to direct

March 29th, 1965 1037 (MR. TANCHAK cont'd) .. .. .... to the Honourable the Minister of Public Works. First question: was it an established fact that the Mississippi Parkway was to be located along the No. 12, meeting No. 1 somewhere in the vicinity of Ste. Anne's? My first question, Madam Speaker. Second question: were there any signs designating that highway as such? MR. WEIR: Madam Spaaker, some of the signs were put up and it was found that the copy that had come to be used to make the signs out of had a mistake in it.

The signs have been taken down and are being corrected and will be replaced, I would hope in the not too dis tant future. MR. TANCHAK: That makes my third question already answered . MR. MOLGAT: Before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to direct a question to the Mini ster of Industry and Commerce. He announced in the House on Thursday, I believe, that Mr. Christianson had been appointed the Chairman of the Manitoba Economic Consultative Board. I believe he was previously Vice-Chairm an . Has an appointment been made for the Vice Chairman? HON.

GURNEY EV ANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce) (Fort Rouge): No, Madam Speaker. MR. MOLGAT: Is it the intention of the government to appoint someone to that, and if so when? MR. EV ANS: It will be announced when we have an announcement to make in that con nection. I have no announcement to make now. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: Order for a Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E . JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Madam Spaaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing, l.

The total cost to the Government of Manitoba for the Metropolitan Corpo ration of Greater Winnipeg Review Commission. 2. The total cost to the Government of Mani toba for the Royal Commission on Local Government Organization and Finance. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for a Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: l.

The total number of motor vehicles (as defined in the Highway Traffic Act) owned by the Province of Manitoba (

a) as of June 30th, 1958 (

b) as of June 30th, 1964. 2. The figures given in (

a) and (

b) broken down into individual departments. 3. The same information as in 1, for all the government boards, commissions and agencies. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. WEIR: Madam Speaker, just a question on

interpretation here. The definition that the honourable member uses is defined in The Highway Traffic Act. As I understand it this would pick up everything that travels over ten miles an hour including snow plows and motor graders and so on and so forth . I'm not sure that this is what he intends. I was wonder ing if we were to interpret it to mean, for instance, anything of one ton capacity or less, and passenger --or vehicles used for, personnel carrying vehicles. MR. PATRICK: Madam Speaker, I meant cars and trucks. MR.

WEIR: Madam Speaker, if we used about the one ton limit this would serve the honourable member's purpose? MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Burrows. M.R TANCHAK: In the absence of the Honourable Member for Burrows I would beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. George, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following cost details of the items .enumerated in the reply to the Order of the House No. 3, dated March lOth, 1965: (

a) total cost (

b) labour c.ost (

c) cost of supplies and equipment (!}) who paid for 1hese costs. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. , . HON. GEORGEHUTTON (Minister of Agri dulture) (Rockwood-lberville): Madam ·- . ' . ' . . ' . • I

1038 March 29th, 1965 (MR. HUTTON cont'd) .. . . ..... . Speaker, we will endeavour to get this information, but in some respects it's going to be an approximation because of the fact that the labou r costs, for instance, are part of the work of members on staff, and only part of the work, so there has to be an arbitrary allocation of costs in this respect; and a[so the fact in the case of sup- plies· and equipment, the figures that we are able to break out may not be entirely ..... .. .

His Honour the Lieutenant-G overnor having entered the House and being seated on the Throne, MADAM SPEAKER addressed His Honour in the following words: May it please Your Honour: The Legislative Assembly, at its present session, passed several Bills, which, in the name of the Assembly, I present to Your Honour and to whicn Bills I respectfully request Your Honour's Assent. MR. CLERK: No. 3-

An Act respecting Public Health. No. 5-

An Act to amend The Municipal Board Act. No. 6-

An Act to amend The Department of Industry and Commerce Act. No. 7-

An Act to amend The Planning Act. No. 8-

An Act to amend The Local Government Districts Act. No. 9 -An Act to authorize The City of St. James to issue Certain Debentures. No. 10 -An Act to authorize The Rural Municipality of Mossey River and The Village of Winnipegosis to make grants to the Sisters of the Order of St. Benedict. No. 11 -

An Act to amend The Lord's Day (Manitoba) Act. No. 12 -

An Act to amend The Arbitration Act. No. 13-

An Act to amend The

Summary Convictions Act. No. 14-

An Act to amend The Municipal Act (1). No. 15 -An Act to amend The Animal Husbandry Act. No. 16 -

An Act to amend The Mineral Taxation Act. No. 17 -

An Act to amend The Mines and Natural Resources Department Act. No. 18-

An Act to amend The Coat of Arms , Floral Emblem and Tartan Act. No. 19 -

An Act to authorize The Town of Winkler to enter into an Agreement for the Establishment of a Regional Library under the provisions of The Public Libraries Act. No. 21-

An Act respecting the Provision of Public Housing Accommodation and the Rehabilitation and Renewal of Urban Areas. No. 23 -

An Act to amend The Education Department Act. No. 24 -

An Act to amend The County Courts Act. No. 25 -

An Act to amend The County Court Judges' Criminal Courts Act. No. 26 -

An Act to amend The Jury Act. No. 36 -

An Act to amend The Manitoba Evidence Act. No. 38 -

An Act to amend The Metropolitan Winnipeg Act (1). No. 43-

An Act respecting the Care and Treatment of Mentally Disordered Persons and the Custody and Control of their Estates. No. 53 -

An Act to amend The Small Debts Recovery Act. No. 54 -

An Act to amend The Insurance Act. No. 57 -

An Act to amend The Public Libraries Act. No. 61 -

An Act to amend The Health Services Act. No. 64-

An Act to amend The Civil Service Act. In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor doth assent to these Bills. MADAM SPEAKER: We, Her Majesty's most dutiful and faithful subjects, the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba in session assembled, approach Your Honour. with sentiments of unfeigned devotion and loyalty to Her Majesty's person and Government, and beg for Your Honour the acceptance of these Bills: No. 70 -

An Act for granting to Her Majesty Certain Further Sums of Money for the Public Service of the Province for the Fiscal Year ending the 31st day of March, 1965. No. 71 -

An Act for granting to Her Majesty Certain Sums of Money for the Public Service of the Province for the Fiscal Year ending the 31st day of March, 1966. MR. CLERK: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor doth thank Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, accepts their benevolence, and assents to these bills in Her Majesty's name.

March 29th, 1965 IOlcJ ORDERS OF THE DAY (Cont' d.) MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Emerson. MR. TANCHAK: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: The total amount of poles purchased each year since 1960 by the Manitoba Telephone System. 2. The amount pur chased each year since 1960 in (

a) Manitoba (

b) Ontario (

c) other Canadian Provinces (

d) United States of America. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 62. The Honourable the Member for Gladstone. MR. NE LSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam Speaker, like the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, it's with mixed feelings that I speak and support the bill that is presently be fore the House. I refer to Bill No. 62.

I must confess that I have not checked the Hansard of the day on which the bill was introduced, but I feel that there are omissions in the bill that I for one would like to see there if, in fact, it is intended to be more useful for the younger farmer. The Throne Speech suggests that the present bill will be before us, and also st:tggests that the whole purpose of the bill is to make it more useful for the younger fa:rmer.

Now, when the Honourable Member for Lakeside spoke the other day, I was reaJly in terested in the comments that were made by the Honourable the Minister, that I suppose would appear both in Hansard and some would not appear in Hansard because they were simply interjections, but I refer to. those comments that resulted from my honourable friend when the Member for Lakeside read a certain newspaper story --I can't find it at the moment; I have a lot of other ones here, Madam Speaker, but I can't find the one I'm looking for --Oh, I have it here, I have it "'--when the Honourable Member for Lakeside read this Tribune news

article of July 28 last, in which it was reported that the Minister of Agriculture recommended at a conference held down East that the Farm Credit Corporation --that's the Federal people -- get out of the loan, the farm loan business or enterprise, and leave the entire operation to the provincial authorities here under the direction of my honourable friend the Minister of Agri culture.

And then when my honourable friend the Member for Lakeside said, "Surely, surely he doesn't mean that the Federal people should put up the money that is required for the loans and leave the administration only to the province, " my honourable friend the Minister of Agri culture nodded in the affirmative to suggest that this was entirely and exactly what he did mean. It reminded me of that old story that "if you've got the money, honey, I've got the time.

" Now, Madam Speaker, there isn't a week goes by but that one or more people do not come into our office in Neepawa for the express purpose of borrowing some money. They al ways say --not my money, Madam Speaker, by reason of the fact that I haven't got any, but it's by reason of the fact that we are in the real estate loan business and so on; but they always come in to the office and want to borrow money. They have some wonderful ideas but they haven't any money to carry them out; and so with Eomeone else's money and their expert ad vice they could really set the world on fire.

And so, Madam Speaker, I suppose that's what the Minister of Agriculture said to the convention down East, that we've got plenty of ideas but we're fresh out of money, and this to me was rather an amusing statement for my honourable friend to admit that he made. There was one other statement in here, that I agree with completely, that was made by my honourable friend; and I don't mind going on record as agreeing with him. I quote: "Some times the farmers get conflicting advice, Mr. Hutton said. " I agree with that 100 percent.

They certainly do get some conflicting advice, and a lot of it probably comes from his depart ment too. Because all you have to do is pick up nearly any paper. If you get a half a dozen papers there will be reports from his department --I've got a whole raft of them before me. This one says "Livestock a Bright Future for Manitoba, " and then goes on to say, in the same article, that we'll have 19, 000 less farmers by 1970. Well that's kind of a bright future and kind of conflicting advice too.

The next one that I have here, "Small Family Farm is Fast Vanishing, " and that is mixed up with a lot of confliCting advice. Then I have one here: "What is the Future of the. Family Farm? " and this emanates from the propaganda department, in which the Minister., I guess, says ,.--because it's headed "What is the Future of t)le Family

1040 March 29th, 1965 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) . . . . . . Farm?" I suppose it emanates from his office --and I'm quoting. He says: "The impending threat of the vertically integrate d or factory farm has been unduly exaggerated," he says in this one, and I agree with him in that one, otherwise they never would have made a loan to the Friendly Family Farms. He must have thought that it was unduly exaggerated. I know my honourable friend will say he had nothing whatever to do with any loan, if there was one, made to the Family Farms of Steinbach, but they haven't denied it up to now. The next

article I have in the way of a conflicting nature is from the Tribune headed, "Dynamic Farm Picture in Manitoba" and it says further on down: nThere have been changes in the industry in the last zo·years." In the same article. There have been changes in the industry in the last 20 years such as a decrease by 16,500 in the number of farms, and the de clining number of people who live on the farms, but it's still headed "Dynamic Future." I have another one here.

"A message from Manitoba to the Federal -Pr ovincial Agri cultural Conference, November 20, 1962," and I don't know whether this emanated from my honourable friend or not --yes, it is; signed George Hutton, November 20, 1962. I'm only going to read one sentence or two from that but I'm quoting again: "We believe that one of the greatest single problems confronting farmers today is the unpredictable and disconcerting way in which farm income varies from one year to the next. There are few occupations out side of farming where instability and uncertainty are so great," and he goes on and on there.

The next one is headed "Weir says too few farmers showed up, " and this was up at a confer ence held out at the University here last year, I believe, in which he --I am quoting him I guess here --that is Mr. Dean Weir. He says it's like saying that only doctors' sons or lawyers' sons can make a good doctor or a good lawyer. Nothing could be further from the truth. He thought that farming should be and could be made as competitive as any other voca tion, and that urbari as well as rural students should be encouraged to take it up professionally. Well "it" is, of course, farming.

Another one from the Free Press --........ a statement here headed "Dairy Farming is overcrowded," in which J. M. Nesbitt, head of the Dairy Science --I am not saying that my honourable friend agrees with him but I haven't seen anything to the contrary yet. I am quot ing now what Nesbitt said and asking if my honourable friend agrees with him. He says, "Toe demand for milk in Canada is not big enough for all those presently producing milk to get a large enough share of the returns," he said.

"I am not suggesting that we are going to force farmers to leave the farm, but we must arouse in them an eager desire to do so." Well that's not very encouraging or a very bright outlook. And then, of course, the one that I read the other day, Madam Speaker, in which my honourable friend said that sometimes he was asked what his philosophy was, and I am quot ing now: "I sometimes am asked what philosophy the Department of Agriculture has in develop ing agricultural programs." Well it's understandable that he would be asked in light of the conflicting reports that I have just read.

And he says, "I am sure" --well I'll read it all so it'll all, this whole paragraph will be in one; I won't be taken out of context. "I sometimes am asked what philosophy the Department of Agriculture has in developing agricultural programs. The main idea to me is the development of programs which provide social and economic good to the family farm within the harsh realities of a market- odented agricultural production. The main objective is to carry forward programs which will allow the farmer the opportunity to make an income comparable to that received in secondary and service industries.

All this must be done within the concept of the family farm as the basic unit in agriculture. I am sure that the family farm will persist as a permanent institution, due to the important place of the family farm in Canadian life, and to the fact that the family -operated farm has many inherent strengths over the field factory concept of farm ing. " I agree with him there, but how then does he justify again loaning three -quarters of a million dollars to a field factory in light of the statements made here?

One day last week, Madam Speaker, I sent a letter to a friend of mine at Neepawa, who is or has been a most successful farmer. He has been a most successful farmer and he I think presently has in the neighbourhood of 25 farms at least, yet. He has title to them and he has made a lot of money, and you can't say that he hasn't been successful. And he told me a little story; in fact I have the details of it before me. He said, "You sent a fellow up to see me two years ago from Plumas, to see if I would loan him some money.

He couldn't borrow any apparently from the Farm Credit Corporation because they thought he didn't have an eco nomic farm unit or his 'proposition wasn•t·sourid. "And,'' he said, "I loaned him $2,000. 00."

March 29th, 1965 1041 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) ... .. .. .. . He loaned him $2, 000. 00 and he went out and he bought 20 head of Hereford heifer calves at $90. 00 each, and he has in brackets "against my · advice " because when he went up there and when he borrowed the money he said he was going to borrow the money for, (1) to buy six brood sows, and he estimated they would cost $1, 000 and the balance to get a few heifer calves, but he ended up by buying these 20 head of heifer calves at $90.00 each or thereabouts.

And. he says they are still one year from income pro ducing --now my honourable friend will know what that means --and the $2, 000 debt is due in April. He said, "He proved an honest risk and he has paid most of the money back to me and I asked him why had he bought the 20 calves instead of the 10 productive animals. 'Well, ' he said, 'the government said to get into beef cattle and I did; that is what my farm is best suited for, they said'. " Well, then he went in and made application for a loan, and the purpose of the loan was to borrow -- he wanted $6, 000. 00. He was going to buy a half

section of semi -marginal land immediately adjacent to his own and pay off this $2, 000 debt and a couple of other small debts, $1, 500 to the Ba·nk and so on, and they turned him down on the grounds that they said he did not have an economic farm unit. He went back to Mr.

Wood-- I didn't intend to let that name out, but it's out -- went back to my friend, told him the story and he said, "I came away com pletely puzzled, " after he was talking to the appraiser, or the man that interviewed him, "because, " he said, "I thought I had a fairly good economic farm unit." And so, as I said Madam Speaker, it's understandable that there is a lot of conflicting advice going on. But who is to say who is right? Who's to say who is right?

Now I will say this, . with my own experience, that if my honourabie friend thinks that in fact we have dupli cation in this field -- and I've been saying this for five or six years; all you've got to do is look up the resolution that I had on the Order Paper about 1959 and this is what I said then. My honourable friend apparently now is going along with me. He believes there's duplication; there's only room for one, one of them in the field and he suggests that the Federal Govern ment should loan him the money and with their money and his brains they'll put it to work.

I say, with my own experience, that if one of them has to go, then for heaven's sakes, let's keep the federal one. And why? I'll tell you. If you want a loan, if you want a loan in our area and you want it fast, then go to the Farm Credit Corporation and get it.

Now there's a reason for this of course, Madam, or partly a reason for this, arid this is due to the fact that we have a regional office right in Neepawa, and I have had people come into the office and I would phone the office, the Farm Credit Corporation office, to check to see if there was anyone there, and said I'm sending so and so down to see you --can you see him right now. Sure you can see him right now, and they'll be out tomorrow or the next day to see the farm, look over what he has, and give him some assurance nearly then and there whether yes or no the loan is likely to go through.

My experience so far as the Manitoba Credit Corporation is concerned has been the opposite. It has taken them months and months and months in many cases to get a definite yes or no answer. As a matter of fact, a year ago in January I was out to Vancouver and spoke with a lady there who had a half

section immediately adjoining our own place at home. I arranged to buy -- I didn't; I arranged for my brother to buy this half

section of land, but who put up the money? I had to put the money up because I knew that a loan would probably take a year to go through, and they want the land now. Almost ten days ago, a week ago Saturday, I got a phone call from a nephew of mine who now has the opportunity for the first time in his life time of acquiring a half

section that they have been renting for a number of years. And he says, "I've got to know now. This farm is for sale; I've got to know now whether I can get the money to buy it." Well he's got a slim hope of finding out now. It'll probably be this time next year when he can find out if the loan has been approved, and I suggested that he go to the Manitoba Farm Credit Corporation in this case beca;Ise he is about 26 years of age and the intere st rates are lower than they are under the federal system, but it's too slow. I don't know what he's going to do.

As recently as last night I called in to see a lady at her re quest who lives right on the highway fifteen miles east of Neepawa. I had no notion what she wanted to see me about but there was a note on my desk. She is a widow lady. I called in to see her and I said, "What can I do. for you? " And she said, "Well, I'm thinking about se !ling my six quarters of land. What's it worth?

" And I asked them for their tax assessment, tax notices on which appears the assessment, and I said, "Well, I'll tell you what, in about one minute, what I think it's. worth." My honourable friend doesn't have to accept this advice, but I took f<)ur times the

1042 March 29th, 1965 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) . . . . . . . . assessment, and on the four quarters it came to $28, 400 by taking four times the assessment. And I said, "Is that nearly what you expected it was worth?" And do you know what she said? She said, "I offered it to my son-in-law," - I think it was a son -in-law --"for $28, 000. 00. " There was only $400. 00 difference in apply ing this four times factor. On the other half it was about the same differential, and she had no knowledge of this factor that I use.

Now, I said in the resolution that I presented to the House, in fact it was the second one that I ever presented to this House, and it was in regard to the speeding up of farm loans. I suggested that in 95 percent of the cases the· loans could be made in the winter time with no difficulty at all, and I still say I'm right. I haven't changed my mind on that. Now I believe that more and more emphasis is being placed by the department on a farmer's ability to repay. What has he done in the past? What is his likelihood of meeting the obligation? And the bill that's before us suggests that that is so.

Well then, if this is so, and if you can apply a factor to the assessed value --all of the land in Manitoba has been assessed. How many times does it have to be assessed? You assess it for tax purposes; you assess it for something else; and you assess it for something else; and if they're not nearly on the same level then there •s some- thing wrong with the way we're assessing.

I Now the annual report that we have before us suggests, on Page 177 of the Annual Re port of the Department of Agriculture and Conservation, that "a great", I'm quoting, "In addi tion to the processing of applications for loans, the Corporation's Farm Credit agents spent a great deal of time in the supervisions of loans previously approved. During the winter months of the fiscal.year progress reports were completed on 917 borrowers, the majority of whom were in the young farmer category. " Now they admit here that they spend "a great deal of time" in the supervision field in the winter months.

I think this is good. That's the time the farmer has got tilne to sit down at his kitchen table and talk things over. I still say that where many of these applications come in, you can assess a man's ability to repay, you can dis cuss his likelihood of being able to repay, with the banks, with other people in the area, and you have the assessment of his land, you can determine within a very close range the value of his land. Certainly you can determine the value of his cattle in the dead of winter.

Certainly you can determine the value of all his machinery in the winter, and you can determine --I don't know what you can't determine the value of in the winter, when you have the proper fig ures before you. And I say therefore, that I am disappointed that there is not a

section in the bill that is before us to allow them to proceed to make loans in the winter months. I am sorry, too, that my honourable friend the Minister and/or his advisers do not de fine in all of the bills coming under his jurisdiction, define what "net income" is to a farmer, so that we on this side of the House will know what they are talking about, so that everybody in Manitoba will know what we are talking about when we talk about net farm income. What does it mean?

Let's define it in some of these Acts, and let us define too, so that everyone can understand, what does a family farm mean, because it seems to mean so many different things to so many different people, and if it could be defined here, I think it would be helpful. Let's try and define too, in terms that we can comprehend, what an "economic unit" is. If we could settle on a couple of these things then we would probably know what we're talking about.

I have before me a most recent publication that emanates from the office of my honour able friend, because it's dated 23/10/64 --that's not long ago -- and it is headed "Farm Business Group Report is Now Available, " and it is referring to a group of farmers, I believe, who enrolled two or three years ago into 27 farm business groups, and they are presentl y engaged in a four-year training program. Madam Speaker, I'm quoting from the Farm Outlook booklet, outlining what the purpose of these groups were that had 700 farmers enrolled.

"It is designed to provide a grounding in sound business management as well as good training in technical subject. Livestock production, soils, science, machinery and building management are included in the study, " and so on and so on. A wonderful idea but not a very encouraging report that came out of that 700 farmers that are enrolled, and I am quoting from this sum mary. It said, "The farms under consideration in this

summary averaged 692 acres, some of which was rented land. The average number of livestock per farm was 44 head. The average value of the operator's assets including land, building and machinery was $51, 000 against which there was an. average debt of $10, 500.00. Allowing 5 percent for the farmer's investment in th ese assets, his average labour earnings was $1,800, or $6.60 a day for a to -hour day." That's the end of the quote. Now Madam Speaker, I suppose this is right, but it's a very, very discouraging

March 29, 1965 1043 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) .... "outlook " --that's what it's called --when you stop to con sider that the net earning is away less than the minimum wage --$6.60 a day for a ten -hour day is 66 cents an hour. They have $51, 000 invested, 44 head of cattle, 692 acres, so it's a pretty discouraging report that comes from this group.

Then I question, Madam Speaker, some of the figures used here, and I'm not claiming that my honourable friend is responsible, but it says at the top that an average net farm income of $4, 001 was reported for 229 Manitoba farm business group farmers after a recent analysis of their 1963 farm records. Then it goes on to say that when you took --allowing 5 percent for the farmers' investment in the assets of $51, 000 that they had $1, 800 net. The arithmetic isn'fright, Madam Speaker. The arithmetic is not correct.

You take 5 percent of $5 1, 000 and you've got what --$2, 550 of interest, but what about the 44 head of cattle? They are not in cluded in the $51,000 according to the article. What about that? But he still only ends up with 66 cents an hour for a 10-hour day, so it's. a pretty gloomy outlook and my honourable friend that wrote me from Neepawa in reply to some enquir ies I had made, I do value his advice be cause as I say he is a most successful farmer, and I'm quoting just from a little bit of the letter that he wrote me.

He says, "In the fie Id of beef production, dairy eggs and poultry, at farm meetings at Portage and Brandon and Gladstone and locally, the farmers and the feed ers were led into huge losses by over -optimistic government forecasts. " That what he says. It says the price drop in '63-64 proved that the farmers were more perce ptive than the pro fessors, and Madam Speaker, I think that·that is most apropos, that in many many cases the farmers are more perceptive than the professors. Why?

Because, as I say, this friend of mine who has 41 parcels of land, 25 farms,and gosh knows how much money, isn't that pretty nearly proof that he didn't make too many errors in his lifetime? Not too many. So Madam Speaker, I hope --I'm like my honourable friend from Brokenhead --I hope it will be more useful than it has been in the past, and that the outlook, the outlook in the entire field will be a lot brighter than it is presently forecast by my honourable friend, be cause the forecast isn't bright at all. I notice that in one

section of the bill before us they are suggesting, I think it's item, or it's subsection (3) --I'm not saying that the corporation is getting into problems, but they're increasing --I'm quoting Subsection (1) of

Section 13 of the Act, "presently provides that no further loans will be made where the arrears of principal and interest overdue exceed a half a million dollars. The new subsection is self-explanator y, " it says. Well --I mean the inference there there's quite a lot of arrears --I would like my honourable friend to explain 'that.

Now, Madam Speaker, I will be interested to learn, and I hope that I am not too optimis tic; I hope that the entire bill will make it more useful for the younger farmers, and I suggest to you that it would be much more useful if they will implement some of the recommendations that I have made and the one in particular to making loans in the winter time. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. MR. HUTTON: If no one else wishes to speak to the bill there are just a few things I'd like to say.

Two members having had a little fun with some quotations attributed to me , I can't --I'm not going to deny that I said it. I said it but for different reasons than have been offer ed by members of the Opposition. The whole question of the federal government carrying on its program of extending credit along with the provincial government poses some very real prob !ems. More and more the federal gdvernmen t agents are intruding into the fie Id of exten sion.

Now extension in agriculture is a provincial jurisdiction, and we have enough trouble trying to maintain co -ordination, concensus of opinion amongst the professional agriculturists in the department, the University and elsewhere without having to contend wit:h the obvious conflicts that can occur when you have federal agents of the Federal Credit Corporation run ning around the province by the dozens. The opinions that I expressed were no t entirely my own.

They were the opinions of the Ministers of Agriculture across Canada who were running into problems with the growth of the federal Farm Credit Corporation, and the suggestion was made that somehow we should try and reach an arrangement whereby the monies expended for by the federal government in the field of farm credit could be administered by the provincial agency with acceptable safeguards for the federal government.

I doubt very much whether anything is going to come of this but I would hope that somehow or other we can co-ordinate our efforts in this field and avoid the confusion that arises where you have different agencies making different recommendations to farmers who are neighbours in some instances. I don't think that there is any duplication in the credit programs of the federal

1044 March 29th, 1965 (MR. HUTTON cont'd) ... .. government and the Government of Manitoba. I think they dove tail very nicely. Seventy percent of our monies are loaned to the young farmers. The balance of the money, I think almost in total, goes to a group of farmers who because of their age - that is they're over 45 years of age --find the provisions of our Act much more helpful to them than the provisions under the Federal Farm Credit Act.

Just to elucidate a bit on this:.Under our Act the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corpora tion is empowered to make loans on both land and chattles, secured by both land and chattels, to anybody up to 60 years of age. Now, under the federal program, if you're over 45 years of age you cannot get a loan in respect to, and give chattel mortgage for security. If you 're under 45 it's fine; if you're over 45, you 're out of luck.

Well, in this respect, we have a little more flexibility in our program, and I think that the two programs dovetail very nicely, because we're serving a certain field that the federal people can't serve under the terms of their Act. They're serving a field that we're glad that they're in. We've never had any trouble lending our money. We could lend more if it were avail able, but we never have any trouble getting rid of it --the money. The farmers want it; the young farmers want it.

It might be of interest for you to know that in Ontario, following the revision of the federal lending program, Ontario discarded their provincial farm cr edit program, but they went back into it again because they found that the federal program wasn't meeting the needs as they existed, as they exist today. So I think that there isn't duplication. There is a conflict when it comes to the recommendations that the agents make, where they're supervising or giving close supervision to a farmer who has taken out a loan, either under

Part 3 of the federal Act or in the case of some of our larger loans. I would like to underline the fact that the program has very few arrears. They're practically non-existent. I think that this fact, the fact that we have had really a remarkable repayment performance on the part of the farmers, is the.answer to my honourable friend from Gladstone when he says: "Why don't you give it out a little faster? Give it out a little faster. " There are no arrears to speak of.

The farmers have been able to repay, and I think that a great deal of the reason for the fact that there are no arrears, is the careful way in which the potential borrower is screened and the resource is screened before he buys, because in addition to giving money, the Agricultural Credit Corporation can give some pretty good ad vice to young farmers and to farmers who aren't so young any more.

These measures, as I pointed out earlier, are designed to meet a situation where in the face of rising prices for farm lands, rising prices on the equipment that a farmer needs to get started, we feel that, at least for the time being anyway, we can help a few more of our young farmers to get a foot on the threshold of this industry. A family farm? Well, a family farm is one where they saw the owner and his family make the decisions, provide the management, and provide most of the labour. I think that's a pretty good definition of the family farm; and it can mean anything from a quarter

section to 5000 acres or even 10,000 acres. It depends on how big the family is, or how many there are there to make decisions and to do the work. The family farm is not a static thing. It can be - it can be a farm that provides a way of life, although these are very hard to find today and they're disappearing. It can be a farm on a quarter

section that is built up vertically, for there's been a tremendous investment in buildings and equipmen t. It's still a family farm if it's run by the farm operator and he's doing the majority of the work. An economic unit in farming is one which I think I would be quoting the attitude of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, is one which will enable the farm operator to make a living, a reasonable living, and repay the loan that he is seeking. I think that those are all the remarks that I should make. Well, let's see. This one about the changing from 500, 000 to 5 percent.

I don't think that the Premier, the First Minister and his colleagues at the time that they put this statute on the law books in Manitoba really appreciated the popularity of this program and the use that was going to be made of it. Oh, I think they had a pretty good idea, but they didn't know that it was going to run into maybe 30 millions of dollars, or may be more. Who knows where it's going to end. Today I think some 24 millions have been loaned to the farmers under this Act, and there's no sign that there's going to be any let-up.

Well, if you were thinking about 10, 20 million dollars of a revolving fund six, seven years ago, now we have to anticipate, I'm sure, something in excess of 30 millions, and the 500,000 is no longer a reasonable figure to, in terms of arrears, to close down the operation. We are substituting 5 percent which would give us, allow about a million dollars in arrears of interest and principal at any time, taking into account the amount of money that has been loaned and I I

March 29th, 196 5 1045 (MR. HUT TON cont'

d) will be loaned to the farmers of Manitoba in the coming year. MR._ SHOEMAKER: I wonder ... I think my honourable friend covered the field pretty well, but he didn't define "net income." I think he overlooked that. MR. HUTTON: Net income on a farm? That's what you've got left over when you pay all the bills. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. HON. MAITLAND B. STEINKOPF, Q. C. (Provincial Secretary) (River Heights) pre sented Bill No. 63,

an Act to amend The Companies Act, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. STEINKOPF: Madam Speaker, members will recall that at the special session last summer, a completely new Companies Act was passed, having some 400 sections, and since that time the Department and members of the Committee who aided in preparing the Companies Act have been checking it to see what mistakes, if any, and what further recom mendations they could make; and this bill we now have before us is the result of their efforts . There are no major changes in principle of the present bill.

Some of them are typographical errors, others are suggestions, improvements in the present Act. There are some 25 changes that will be recommended in this bill . MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, before the Minister closes debate on this, if he in tends to, did I understand him correctly to say that there are no changes in principles at all in any of these sections? MR. STEINKOPF: No changes in principles. There may be clarification of principles or an elaboration of principles, but no major changes in principles in the Act. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I see that the Honourable Member for Assiniboia is not in his seat, so there's no point in calling the resolution on the Highway Committee. And the member -- I understand that the Honourable Member for Rhineland does not wish to pro ceed today on the budget debate, so I'll call the Committee of Supply. I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair.

1046 March 29th, 1965 CO MMITTE E OF SUPPL Y MR. CHAffiMAN: We'r e on Resolution No. 30, item 4 (a) 3 pass, 4(b) (1) . . .. MR . J OHNSON: .. .. .. particular. This is a large appropriation and I would love to give a thumbnail sketch to the honourable members on the activities which will help them in in terpreting this whole

section of four million dollars. I'm happy to report that there's been a considerable degree of expansion in the various areas and phases of vocational education during the year under rev iew .

I've alread y mentioned in my opening remarks some of the highlights that about 13 percent of our high school population are now involved in some form of vocational industrial or commercial courses; that in the second year of its operation as you realize now at the new Institute of Technology, the enrol ment in technology increased by over 200 and the total enrolment in the institute in the regular day classes approaches 1500; and that our plans for the new vocational centres at Brand on and the Pas are well advanced and proceeding according to schedul e.

I also mentione d a few of the highli ghts in the training plans on which we have recently embarked such as the in-plant train ing program, the vocational teacher program and the program for the upgrading of unemployed persons in order that they may qualify for trade or occupational training. The large in crease in the salary appropriation over the amount which wa!'l voted last year reflects the staff in creases which are necessary because of the greatly expanded activity in this field.

The office of the directorate of vocational training or education has been reorganized to provide more ad equate supervision and control on the various programs offered. The Institute of Technology offers more than 30 trade and occupational courses in the industrial division and the enrolment is now between 900 and 10 00 regular students. In the technology division there are ten technologies as we've mentioned operating with over 500 stu dents. The Institute also operates evening school pr ograms in a wide variety of subjects and the enrolment here is expected to approximate 30 00 for the school year.

At the Institute spe cial short courses are continually in progress to meet the needs of industry and labour and various vocational field s. I may say that we have been very pleased with the success of the Instit ute, and that we are deeply grateful, not only to its staff but to both management and labour for their constant co-operation, assistance and advice on matters relating to indus trial and technologic al training.

We hope to maintain a service here which can be adapted to the con tinuing changes in industry and we have every reason to believe that the Institute is performing and will continue to perform a wor thwhile service in this reg ard. The Brandon Vocational Centre while operated on a smal ler scale, I can point out to the Committee has nevertheless trained or is training 278 persons du ring the year: Business education, general automotive, construction, electricity courses, plumbing and general draft ing.

We also conduct upgrading courses in the basic skills for unemployed persons here and we have recently expanded our offerings at Brandon by the expansion of our commercial course and by the institution of what is known as a counterman parts course and we will make provi sion for further expansion as the need arises. In fact when the new building is ready for occu pancy, hopefully in September '66, our target date, our vocational centre at Brandon will al ready have been a going concern. At present our classes are being conducted in various tem porary quarters.

The Apprenticesh ip Act is administered under the Depar tment of Labour but apprentices are required to take a period of instruction at the Institute and while there are paid a subsistence allowance similar to that paid to the unemployed taking prevoc ational and up gr ading courses. During the period July 1st '63 to June 30t h 1964, 77 8 apprentices were en rolled in regular day classes in 15 trades and 184 in evening apprenticeship classes in six trades. At the present time there are 179 apprentices at this moment enrolled at the Institute for training.

I should like to give you a thumbnail sketch of the various programs offered in vocation al high school, technical trade training and retraining, the costs of which are shared with the Federal Government under the Tec hnical Vocational Training Agreement .

I should point out to members of the committee that to clear it again --last year as you recall we went into the basic upgrading, what we call the basic training for skill development, reaching down into the communit y with a subsistence allowance to bring people registered through the unemployment office back to school to train them at different levels, upgrading, so that they might qualify for a trade or pre -employment courses at our Institu te. Over 1300 took advantage of this last year.

This year at this moment we have 702 people in twelve centres across the province taking these courses and something over 400 in pre -employment or-trade training at the lristitute. I

March 29th, 1965 1047 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd) ....... Last year was the first time that this province had given the subsis tence allowance to these people whilst in training and this was broadened this year to include not only those in the regular three month classes but we extended this into the trade training field, that is while those people are at our Institute. In addition to this we raised the apprentices ' basic training, or basic subsistence allowance up to the same level as those up going basic upgrading. These were extensions in policy carried out this year.

As I said earlier, this whole approach to technical vocational training is really one of manpower development on a broad scale and in order to share in this manpower retraining ac ross Canada we .have what are known as ten agreements called the Te chnical Vocational Train ing Agreements with the Fede ral Government. Program 1 is the basic vocational high school training program and this prog ram is --the object of it is to assist in financing vocational courses in high schools where one-half of the school time is devoted to technical or vocational training.

At the present time 54 high schools are conducting ten different courses under the program. The sharing here is 50 percent federa l but there is a ceiling on this of $161, 500 a year in this province. The Standing Committee on Ministers and Education have appealed to the Federal Government in this particular program asking that it be shared at least on a 50/50 basis and in that connection I was one who attended with some of the ministers upon the Mini ster of Labour the Honourable Mr.

MacEachen to have this recommendation and resolution of the Standing Committee of Ministe rs re-ex amined by the federal authorities. Program No. 2 is the technical training program for the technology. or post high school students. This is where we have our ten technology course s catering to, at the moment there are over 500 students in attendance. Here this is shared 50/50 with the Federal Government. The trade and occupational training program which is a prog ram for pre -empl.oyment training upgrading and retraining for people over compulsory school age who have left school .

This is the one wherein co-operation with industry and commerce we have made extensive use for in plant training, chiefly in the soft goods industry and during the past year over 500 trainees have graduated. There are presen tly at this time 184 enrolled in the. various plants through out the province. Another use of this prog ram is through trade and occupational courses of fered at our vocational centres at Brandon and at our Institute in Winnipeg, and pre sently the Institute has 289 enrolled in these courses and Brandon 17. Cos t sharing in tllris particular pro gram is 50 federal, 50 percent provincial.

Prog ram 4 is a program conducted in co-operation with industry and ills object is to upgrade and retrain employed and to develop supervisory and management personnel as well as to teach small business management. And in this connection in the past year under a super visor specially trained for this work at present there are 330 enrolled in fourteen small busi ness management courses around the province and for approved training purposes the Fede ral Government contribute 75 percent of the cost of this program.

It has incidentally met with tremendous success right across Canada and we are fortunate in having a man detailed to this particular task. Program 5 of course is the training for the unemployed --as I have mentioned the basic training for skill devel opment course. They're des igned to upgrade an unemployed person's education to the point where he is qualified to take training or occupational courses . This is where I said there are 705 at the moment enrolled in 34 classes in twelve locations .

This ser vice is a wo rthwhile form of rehabilitation as you know and while taking training these people are in receipt of subsis tence allowances beginning at $12 . 00 a week for a single man living at home to a maximum of $5 0. 00 a week for a married man with a family living away from home . We also use this pro gram for pre -employment in trade and occupational courses for unemploy ed and there are 496 as I said earlier taking this course at our vocational centres at the mo ment.

Under pro gram 6 which is training for disa bled persons, member s will note that this appropri ation is up to $3 00, 000 this year, a big jump forward. We have a total of 237 enrolled as basic training, skills unlimited at Winnipeg and Selkirk in the commercial colleges at the Institute here and in Brandon and the Industrial Worksh op . Fifty percent of costs of these courses is shared with the Federa l Government.

Under program 7, this is where we operate a training program for voeational and teehnical teachers at the Institute and at the prese nt time we have a two year ,course vocational teacher program in operation with 28 students in first year and 11 in the second year of the course. The federal share of this cost is 50 per cent of the cost. I might say this was the other res olution which the ftanding Committee of Ministers from the Canadian EducationalAssoc iation

1048 March 29th, 1965 (MR . JOHNSON cont'd} ......• Conference, or last meeting, passed a resolution urging the federal authorities to increase the partici pation in vocati onal teacher training. The situation is not unique in Manitob a, right across Canada there is a very great need to compete with in dustry for skilled craftsmen and bring them in into teaching. In addition to the course we have now operating of course we have summer classes conducted at the Institute during the summe r months where espec ially teachers in industrial arts are brought in and given some retraining or more training.

Program 8, that is as known, this is des ig ned, a training program for the federal de partments and agencies, chiefly the Armed Forces, Federal Government. This is a 100 per cent federal program that we operate. Number 9, is a student aid program . This gives assistance to students in unive rsi ty and for nurse s in training.

As I have mentioned earlier, thi s is an old program that hasn't changed for many years and is placed here; the province gets $12, 000 a year towards uni versi ty bursaries which are entered in thi s particular appropriation so that we can get our 50 percent federal sharing on that item that they leave to us . It is our intent ion to expand our services in the education training and retraining of people under these programs. We have already in dica tions of another marked increase in en rolment at the Institute of Technology for next year.

The vocational branch approve s and super vises as you know adult evening classes in academic, vocational, ci tizenship, and practical arts su bjects. During the past year such courses were conducted in 24 centre s throughout the province with an enrolment of 13; 056 students. This branch also administers The Trade School Regulations Act. In this connection we have already made provision and are actively seeking at the moment and have been for a short while a su pervisor for this work.

Through this branch vocational correspondence may be obtained on a sharing arrangement with the Federal Govern ment and during the past year in exce ss of 2000 sutdents were enroled in commercial, practical arts and other vocational correspondence course s. Finally, I am happy to report that through the Department of Ex ternal Affai rs we are continuing our co -operative program of supplying instructors for the technica l teacher training college in Kuala Lampur, Malaysia. Presently we have four instructors stationed there, orie of whom is the princi pal of the college .

From reports that we are continually recei ving we are sure that our action in this regard is making a significant contribution to the educational train ing program of that progressi ve and education-m inded country. I would like to share with the comm ittee at this time a very human story from this part of the world where Manitoba has been supplying technical teachers.

As you know, we started out with the Little Colombo Plan, just to brief membe rs, where three teachers were sent into Ceylon where we paid the salaries of these teachers and put an appropriation aside for something like $26, 000, mainly as I say for salarie s.

While we were in this along came Kuala Lampur and the request for assi stance in that area, where External Affairs, as I understand it, through that branch recruit around Canada --let me say first <?f all the Department of External Affairs who recruit about 250 teachers a year of whom 20 or so come from our province and go into largely prim ary and sec ondary educ ational opportuni ties in these countri es.

When we were through with this particular program the Fed eral Government felt that--and Manitob a wanted to make a Manitoba effort-- so we were given the opportunity to take over a new technical training college in Kuala Lampur and staff it with Manitoba personnel.

We have at the present time five teachers in that particular train ing institute and the Federal Government through external aid pay this entirely and Manitob a has said, where there is another opportunity for us to participa te we would be happy to do so as we did in Ceylon and as yet we've had no indication from the federal authorities that there is such a particular thing they want us to do at the moment. However we are in consta nt touch with them .

However. conce rning Malaysia, I thought I should advise you that last year just after the House rose we received a letter from the Honourable Paul Martin, Secretary of State for External Affairs in which he attached a copy of a letter from the High Commissi oner in Kuala Lampur descri bing a recent graduation ceremo ny at the Te chnical Training College in Kuala Lam pur with which Manitob a is so closely asso ciate d. Mr. Martin says "I am sure you will find the report exhilarating.

The construction of capital proje cts abroad usually provide s physi cal evidence of achievemen t in the form of a permanent structure but of equal importance tech nical and educational assis tance is often by its very nature somewhat less tangibly apparent. The graduation exercises organized by Mr. Didcote who is now back and at our Institute, drew atten tion to a very real achievement in the field of education. Canada's educational assi stance I I I

March 29t h, 1965 1049 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd) ........ programs involving the supply of professors and teachers and the award of scholarships can only be carried out effectively in co-ope ration with the provinces. I should again like to convey the appreciation of the Canadian government for the part" this is add res sed to the First Minister, "the part you and your Department of Education have played in this impress ive demonstra tion of co-operation ".

The story is simply this, that in Malaysia there are 80 Malaysians of Mal aya, Chinese and Indian origin who are taking up newly created school posts throughout this federation. Recently they received certificates as qualified tech nical teachers in the first graduation ceremony of its kind in the federation. The first class to graduate in a two year course in the Canadian organized and sponsored technical teachers training college here. They were especially chosen to perform a vital trail blazing role in helping their deve loping country become economically independent .

Recognizing the need for vastly increasing the number of technically trained people if economic progre ss is to be achiev ed and sustained the Malaysian Government requested Canadian assis tance in developing a technical teachers' training college from scratch. Ca nada met this request by a co-operative arrangement between the Federa l Government and the Province of Manitoba. The Deputy Mini ster of Education in Manitoba and two Canadian Colombo advisers studies the feasibility of the project and made recommendations .

The Manitoba Department of Education then recruited suitable teachers from its own staff and from the school system of the province and seconded them to the external aid office for this project. In a temporary building supplied by the Malaysian Government, five Manitoba Government teachers led by Mr. Fred Addy, Director of Vocational Training for Manitoba, set up and organized a college in '62 in consultation with his Malaysian colleague. Under the plan Malaysians trained at the college and in Canada under the guidance of Manitoba authorities will gradually take over administration amd teaching duties.

In addition Canada supplied school equipment and text books. To commemorate two years of hard work and to give added significance to the students' achievement, Mr. Didcote of Winnipeg the principal at the time of this, in May of last year, currently principal of the college, persua ded the authorities to depart from the local practice by granting diplomas into a Canadian style graduation ceremony. The other four Manitoba teachers who participated wilth the Malaysian authorities in the colourful and moving graduation were R. F. Toutant, of St. Jame s; A. G. Ande rson of Winnipeg; J. M.

Stokomelzy of Dauphin, and R. J. Sutton of Brandon. Mr. McC aughey Canadian High Commis sioner to Malaysia who attended the ceremony, reports on the enthusiasm of the new teachers facing the challenge of the days ahead when they will do their

part in nation building. " I just want to read an excerpt from the report of the High Commiss ioner to the Honourable Paul Martin, a copy of which they sent on to us . "In many ways it was a typical graduation ceremony. Mr. Didcote our principal of the school spoke and also a senior member of the Ministry of Education. They spoke of the value of technical training and their hopes for its future and exhorted the graduates to "fight the good fight" wherever in Malaysia they were called to serve. " The Commissi oner says ''I spoke too and also, I admit, typically.

I stre ssed Canada's association with the college and the co-operative arrangement with the Province of Manitoba which made this possi ble and brought our instructors to Kuala Lampur. I did not of course fail to add my bit of exhortation to the graduates. What was not typical about the gradua tion was that it was the college's first. Eighty young men, some very young , came up to the platform to receive their diplomas from Mr. Didcote . Indeed, that they got diplomas was not typical since Mr.

Didcote had to fight long and hard to per suade the education authorities to give the graduates something tangible to record their two years of effort. It had neve r been done before and now will always be done at this and similar institutions. In ethnic origin the graduates were Malays, Chinese, Indians, a cross

section of the old Malaya's people s. For two years they had lived and worked together, in itself a not insignificant contribution to national unity. A number of the graduates had parents, brothers, sisters in the audience. A large number had not, which is not surprising since they came from every state on the Main land and few were represe ntatives of the comp aratively well to do stratum of society, the practical wish is what the purse will bear. Mr. Did cote's pride in the moment was ill-con cealed, nor would have I wished it otherwise .

Here were 80 young people about to embark on teaching careers throughout the Mainland of their country and only because Canada and Mani toba more than two years ago chose to help. After the ceremony we all attended a tea party and although such official gatherings come far down my scale of priorities regard ing the useful dis pos ition of my time, this was different and one I shall long remember. The graduates were about to go home to their towns and villages for a brief holida y before taking up their duties.

1050 March 29th, 1965 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd) ...... None knew yet where they would be assigned. That would be de- cided during the holidays . Never a one was bothered by this and ever a one was chockablock with enthusiasm about the challenge of the days ahead, when as teachers they would do their

part in nation building. I am glad that even for awhile I was able to step into their lives. This project has not been without its frustrations but without doubt it is a good one . Manitoba and your office should be proud of it. This office is. " I thought the members --it's the only opportunity I'll have during these estimates to brief you on the efforts in this far away land except to tell the members of the committee that Mr.

Roberts, a Malaysian, the head of the technical training program for that country was in Winnipeg last fall and I spent an afternoon with him and he spent a day or two with the officia ls in the Department. I think the wonderfyl thing about this program is that the educational authorities of that country have a very warm and deep attachment to the Province of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba, through this effort. It certainly impressed me as one of the wonder ful things and it's welcomed by the staff, those who have gone and served. There are mor e there this year-- that is there is a turn about, Mr.

Didcote is back here now in the trade sec tion, industrial

section of the colleg e and another one of people has gone over. It made it very real to these people that, they are on a first name basis with all the people in our Department in Technology, that we are sharing our experiences and our teachers with them . --( Interjection) --( hear, hear. )-- I thought I would just mention this at this time, introducing this particular item. MR . ROBLIN: Mr.

Chairma n, I don't want to cut off the train of dicussion here but I'd like permiss ion to make an announcement that I in tended to make at the opening of the com mi ttee me eting, and that is that the next department to be cal led will not be Agriculture and Conservation. It will be the Department of the Attorney- General . MR. MARK G. SMERC HANSKI (Burrows): Mr.

Chairman, in reference to the voca tional education I appreci ate what the Honourable Minister has said about tea parties and De partment of External Affairs in the Province of Manitoba, but I am interested to know what is bei ng done to develop the matter of giving proper training to future employment to people in the Province of Manitoba and industry. In the description we got I am still more confused than I . ever was before to try and differentiate between apprenticesh ip training, in-plant .training and industrial training.

Might I suggest to the Honourable Minister, and indeed to this government, that we have got too many classifications in order to properly promote the industrial develop me nt of this province . It seems that part of this is done under the Department of Industry and Commerce, part of it is done under the Department of Lab our, and part of it is done under the Department of Education, and this is exactly where we start to get the breakdown of prope r sequence on the training of young people for industry. If I may use the word "chaotic " I think that this begins to describe the situation that exists.

Ther e should be one source of authority, there should be one source of training, and whether it is in-plant training or apprenticeship training or industrial training or vocational training, it should be all co-o rdinated under one effort . Mr. Chairman, we seem to be training people in all directions, but I think that there's been a lack of proper co-o rdination with what the industrial requiremen ts in the province are, because after all, is not vocational training to try and provide some type of source from which industry can draw? Now Mr.

Chairman, I am very much impressed with the Honourable Mini ster 's remark of dynamic and explosive growth, and I would only like to bring to his attention that the apprenticesh ip training in Manitoba in 1955 , according to my figures, was something like 1, 442 . In 19 64 this total was 1, 450 . Now this is anything but a dynamic explosive growth. I think that we should hliVe something more than just words, descriptions, reports. These are all very nice, but I think that we should embark on some proper approach to train personnel for industry and for basic industry.

You have today in your vocational schools instructions in the type of work that they have to go outside the province in order to find work, and I would like to see this department stake out the proper approach of what is in-plant training and what is apprenticesh ip training and work out a proper arrangement with the Federal Government, which I understand pays for most of the cost of the instructors and the curriculums, and em bark on a program which is so common in some of the other province s. And I think, Mr.

Ch airm an, that we in this Department of Education under vocational training, are tying to go in too many directions without having a proper consolidation, of having one object ive in mind . Be cause to me vocational training or apprenticeship or in-plant training or industrial training mea ns only 0ne thing, and that is providing the neces sary per sonnel to be available for the I

March 29th, 1965 1051 (MR. SMERC HANSKI cont'd) ...... , industrial development of this province. Now if this is not the objective then I am mi sinformed, and it seems to me that we are placing a great deal of ef fort into this appro ach but we are mis sing the boat by not bringing industry into its proper focus with the training program and getting on with the job.

Mr, Chairman, there are many industrial concerns that we can bring into this pro vince if we have the proper trained pers onnel to offer industry that comes into the province, and I will strongly suggest --and I am not belittling the Department of Ed ucatilon-- but I don't think that the industrial growth of Manitoba is going to be too much dependent on what goes on in Ceylon, Malaysia or in terms of exte rnal affairs. I think this is a field for the Federal Government.

I think it's wonderful if the province does-contribute, but I think that our prime importance should be in vocational training to provide work ers for industry in the province so that we can attract this industry and properly say to industry, "Here are the perso nnel that we have trained. Here 's the type of workers we can give you, " and we don't have to say to them that you will have to train your own men. I think that this is of vital importance and I notice this, Mr.

Chairman, that as far as my figures are concerned, the apprenticeship training, and including some of the plant in-training, has not increased and has not kept paee with the ind us trial expansion of this province, and I want to tell you this, that if you're not going to continue and increase on a very much dynamic and explos ive basis of vocational training, you're going to find that industry will not be so likely to locate in Manitoba. MR. JOHNSON: Mr .

Chairman, I rise at this time to say to my honourable friend, he hasn't paid too much attention to what I've been trying to say during these est imates because I want him to know that if he can think of some industry we can attract here by training a skilled worker A or B, he should let me know.

There's a modern instrument called the tele phone and he can call me any time at aJl, because this is exactly what we 're trying to do, and I' ve said earlier, in concert with the federal authoritie s in Ottawa under manpower developmsnt, I said -- I read a categorical statement in this connectio� sarlier, underlined it, that this is the way we're looking at it, not as a pro gram but as a program of manpower development reaching right down into the community up to technologies, and this is what we 'r e doing at the MIT, the Manitoba Institute of Technology, and since September '63 to February of this year, the grand total of those trained or in training is 7, 881 people .

I want to tell my honourable friend that in talking and introducing this estimate as I did, I went to the trouble I did, to try and break down for the honourable members of the com mittee the kind of courses and the general overall approach that we make in concert with the federal authorities as does every other province across Canada. Basically, one prog ram deals with trade training, vocational training at the high school level, and we have separate agree ments si gned; we have signed ten separate agreements with the federal authorities; and they're not saying, "Break this down into individual units .

" We don't do that, but so that the honour able members would understand just how we 're asked to carry out this manpower development prog ram, I have outlined the ten different agreements that we have under the broad technical vocational training agreement and we have broadened this . Last year, for the first time , any one unemployed registered through the National Unemployment Service Commis sion, or the National Employment Office, that is referred to us, qualifies for subsis tence while he's getting a basic upgrading in general education.

This year we extended that into the trade, pre -trade training and retraining and so on. And as I said, we have met with I think very excellent suc cess and it's just starting. Just starting. This thing' s going to, I hope, explode and --but this is the first time it was ever done in this province.

Apprenticeship in the des ignated trades, I note from my figures going back over the last few years, have remained around be tween 600 and 800, around roughly 700 apprentices per year in training, but this is not to men tion all those in pre-e mployment training; it's not to mention all those in trade training as a whole, in the non-des ignated trade s and so on. So we have these whole hosts of people . I tried to indicate in my introductory remarks liow this is growing.

Heavens � In the technology of medical laboratory and laboratory and X-ray at the MIT, this thing is tremen dously popular; an excellent course . We now have 101 teachers out at MIT quite apart from our staff in the office and so on -- 101 in te aching capacities. We're going all but three weeks of the year full steam ahead, morning noon and night, and quite frankly we 'r e developing, as we've said earlier, The Pas and Brandon to branch out further. Our program isn't that bad, as claimed by the honourable member.

When the fourteen directors at large from the United States of America come here to look at our Institute� And they were particularly impressed with what? With the basic upgrading program at 442 Will iam Avenue where 2:84 people are

1052 March 29th, 1965 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd) ....... being brought in and brought up to a level where they can go in- to MIT or into one of our trade schools for pre -employrnent training and so on. They thought this was a particularly attractive, significant feature of Man itoba's approach to this whole broad manpower program . In the House the other day I mentioned that I had met with these directors and with the chief man from the Federa l Government in Ottawa, Jr . Ford, who in --this is a highly complica ted field to explain, especia lly to people not working with it fairly cons tantly.

In its simplest terms he tried to say to these people , while we have these ten agreements with the province s and divide people into those in in-plant training and industry and those in technology and those back at getting a basic education, really in all, in all we share between 50 and 75 per cent in these programs but we break them down beca use of the necessity to have agreem ents in these various fields with the province s, but in its broadest sense it is a manpower redevelop ment program, and this is what we're trying to convey.

But when you're talking to kids or you' re talking to people who are particularly interested in a trade or in getting retraining and so on, we have to talk in specific terms. We have to point out that technologies are only open to the post high school student, that some of the trades and so on are under the trade and oc cupational training program and what j::lave you.

I would like this committee to think of this whole effort as a massi ve attack on man power redevelopment, as the Federa l Department of Labour visualize it also, and I think we 're going to continue to see improvements in this approach, in this broad approach. I think the federal authorities, after meeting with the Ministers of Educa tion across Canada, indicated to us that they too want to see these barriers broken down and a broader and broader approach made to this whole problem. But I think there is , from the figures I have given, there is some note of optimism in this whole matter.

Insofar as in-pla nt training goes, the Honourable Member from Burrows knows, thi s just started about a year ago in co-opera tion with Industry and Commerce who saw a particular problem, and while our Department makes the arra nge ments with the federal authorities, the Department of Industry and Commerce work with in dustry in it, we are nonetheless the department who develop the programs with the federal authorities who share 50- 50 in that particular type of development.

I think it's significant that in the last year 500 rece ived subsistence allowance during their peri od of in-plant training, 50 percent from the province, half of which was shared with Ottawa, that 500 as I say, took ad vantage of this program . I can assure my honourable friend and any member of this committee, that if there are certain courses or so on that people know about, we 're only too happy to give them our fullest attention. And in this regard, already we have met, for example in planning The Pas Voca tional Centre, we met with the people in the north who have industrie s.

We met with perso nnel people from INCO and Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting who pointed out for us for example the particular need for mining techn ologists in the north. Th ere 's only I think one other centre in Canada that produces them. This is what we hope as the technology to start out with at that particular ins titute. Again, if The Pas were planning, as we said, a communi ty approach.

So I think that there is a real note for optimism, and I am very very pleased in the meetings I have attended with repres entatives of industry and labour the tremendous con tribution that they are making and will continue to make; and as long as we meet with them as often as we do I think we'r e not going to become divorced from their immedia te goals. I think this is very important.

But I would hope the committee in looking. at these estimates would recognize that we are terribly interested in applying this manpower redevelopment program to almost any aspect of industry and labour that we can pos sibly apply it to and press on with this work. MR. E. R. SCHREY ER (Brokenhead); Mr. Chairma n, perha ps one reason why the Minister of Education is having difficulty in getting the Voca tional Education Program ma de known to us is because the report of the Departmen t in that par ticular section, the Voca tional Educa tion section, is very bad if I might say so.

The programs numbers 1 to 10, they're ex plained very curso rily, and then they aren't in sequence. You don't know in what locations in the province the different programs are being offered; and you don't know the enrolment in each. In some instan ces we have overlapping, that is to say a particular progra m, let's say Program 5 for e,xample, it's referred to in four different plac es, and --well in four different places. For example , there's something sa id about it on page 109, and then again on page 110. But generally it's a case of not having the ma terial laid out in sequence; not showing ade quate data.

Perhaps a chart showing the different programs and then showing the loc ations

March 29th, 19 65. 1053 (MR . SCHREYER cont'd) ......... where these programs are offered, the enrolment, etcetra, would give us a better overall picture . I think it's impo rtant, be cause this is a field that's so rapidly changing, as the Honourable Minister said. It's difficult to conce ive of the change s. MR . FROE SE : Mr. Chairman, I would like to know just how much was spent in sub si stence allowance in retr aining the une mployed last year; and also how much is allocated un der that item in the es timates that we have before us . MR. JOHNSON : Mr.

Chairman on that --I'd like to answer that particular question if I may. Last year we put aside -- it was two million one . Actually, we set aside last year $1, 000, 677 for pre-voca tion unemployed traine es living allowance. This was our first ven ture into this area and we overestima ted, and this year we expect in that particular item, we are es t ... .. .. that's why this vote (b) (4), (b) (2) is down a little bit, down in this supplies item because we're only estima ting 1. 25 0 this year-in subsi stence . This is the item where the federal authorities pay 90 percent . MR. SMERC HANSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to add a few other obse rvations . I appreciate that the honourable ministe r's telling us that they 're just starting this program for the first time in the provin ce . Now this some how or other doesn't dovetail into this prelimi nary descri ption of how well we 're doing in te rms of training our people in Manitoba for indus try. True enough, the program may be good as far as the Department of Education is con cerned, but the fact of the matter is that industry and employmen t of our people in ind ustry in Manitoba is lagging. There is som ething drastic ally wrong.

Now, if you aren't able to put your finge r on it, and if the Department of Indu stry is not able to put their finge r on it, then who will . Now, I'm much interested in the matter of mining te chno logists. You're going to set up a departmen t or a

section to tr ain these type of people. Well, Mr. Chairman, we are tr aining un der our present courses somet hing like 90 pe rcent of the requirement of people that wou ld go to make up a mining technolo gist. These are chemists, assaye rs, han dling in the matter of smelting of ores, surveying, me chanical, plumbing, pipe fitting, just to mention some of them, so that you might just as well say that we are training people in the industrial, in the proce ssi ng and in the chemical field. The point I make, Mr. Chairman, is this .

There seems to be a great deal of confusion in terms to the various categories of training people to be gainfully employed in the province , and I dare say that if the honourable minister was able to make a proper survey and follow the graduates or the workers that have been tr ained in these programs and find out what percentage have been gainfully employed in the province and what percentage left the province because they couldn't find gainful employment. We talk about exporting powe r. We 're talking about exporting differen t thi ngs . Why not tr ain our technolo gists here ?

Why not bring industry here and let's util ize that cheap power; let's utilize the tr aining of our technologists in the province and make our industry grow. It seems that other parts of Canada are experiencing -- and using the term of my honourable friend -- an "explo sive " development in the industrial development which we in Manitoba are not sharing in a pro porti onate way . And it is for this reason, Mr .

Chairman, that I recom mend and sugges t to the Honourable Minister that a good hard look be taken and let's do away· with all these fuzzy terms, let 's do away with all these different categories, and let's come right down to brass tacks and find out what it is that industry really needs in terms of vocational training, and what can you as the government do in order to further the type of vocational training that is required by industry.

To say that indus try and labour are co-operating I think you're only express ing a certain per centage of negotiations with those people you've been in contact with, because if this was the majo rity, then why is our indu strial development in the province lagging . Mr. Chairman, there's more than just pro viding people into special classifications or categorie s. There are plants oper ating in this province today who have had to do the training of their own pers onne l.

There are many more plants that can be attracted to this province who will have to again train their own personnel, and this method of in-plant tr aining is a wonderful approach to it, a wonde rful approach. And what I am unable to unde rstand is that if we have all these programs, and we unders tand all these programs, and if they're so dyna mi c and explosive, what is wrong? There's a nigge r in the wood pile some place; and if there is one let' s smoke him out .

IT'he thing is that I feel there should be more concerted co -opera tion and or ganization on a proper basis, and instea d of having ten categories or class ifications, let's have one . Let's get on with the job and let' s really bri ng this indu strial groWth into the provin ce.

1054 March 29 th, 1965 . MR. PAULLE Y: Mr. Chairma n, I'm rather intrigued by the arguments of the Honourable Member for Burrows in respect to vocational training, When I first heard him, or when he first spoke, I thought that he had said to the minister, "You train the individuals and industry are just bursting at the seams waiting to come into the Pro�ince of Manitoba once you have the personnel trained." And in his latest oration, I thought it .was just the reverse, that if you on ly had the industries here well then we'd be able to hold those that we are training.

So I apologize to my honourable friend if I'm sort of mi xed up with what he has said. I'm intrigued with the program that we have before us at the present time for consi deration, but lest I be misunderstood, I would suggest to the Honourable the Minister of Edu cation, that in the impo.rtant field of vocational training it 's not dollars alone that count. It is quite easy for the honourable the minister to say to us that our estimates have increased by a ce rtain percentage this year over last, or considerably so over what it was in the year 1958- '59 by comparison.

As a matter of fact, if memory serves me correct ly, the Honourable the First Minister in his budget address mentioned something to the effect that it had gone up by some 264-6 5 percent over '5 8-'5 9 . Well,course we realize today that there is no actual com parison either in viewpoints as expressed in '58-'5 9 by comparison with what they are being expressed today, I'm rather intrigued with the remarks that my honourable friend the Minister of Education when he talks about the expansion into· The Pas and Brandon and other areas. I say to him, and I say this in all sincerity, M£ .

Chairman, that it's not sufficient just to esta blish technical training schools in Winnipeg and expand them in Winnipeg, or in Brandon, or The Pas or anywhere else unless we have an accompanying upsurge of industry or places where our young men and young women will be able to apply the skills that they do attain from our training programs either at MIT or our in-training programs wherever they may be .

So I would like to say to my friend again --I think I've mentioned this once or twice before, if not in this session, in previous sessions-- that there has to be a greater degree of co-opera tion or enthusiasm or progress made between my honourable friend the Minister of Education and his compatriot the Honourable Member, the Mi niste r of Industry and Commerce, because it does appear to me that at the present time at least, while we may be sending out of our techni cal training schools a number of graduates, this loo¥-s good this looks good insofar as paper is concerned, but I would like my honourable friend the Ministe r of Education to tell the com mi ttee how many of these individuals as a result of that training have found employment as a direct resu lt of the training that they have recei ved at MIT or our other schools.

Because from my own observation --and I frankly admit, rather li mi ted observations, beca use I am not in possession of all of the facts that my friend the Ministe r of Education may have -- it does appear to me Mr. Ch airma n that not too many of those who have graduated from our technica l MIT are gainfully employed at the jobs for which they were trained. I have observed over the last year on one or two occa sions the Minister of Education handing out diplomas to students who are graduates. Now he knows how many students gradua ted.

I wonder if my honourable friend has been able to make an assessment as to the tangible results of the in vestment in education on the technical and vocational line . I don't know, he may have Mr. Chairman, touched this in his opening remar ks . If he did then I apologize be cause I wasn't in my seat at the time. But I think that this is how we are going to assess our endeavours.

I apprec iate and realize that all across our country of Canada and the North Ame rican continent more and more emphasis is being laid on the necessi ty of up-training and re-tra ining and various aspects of vocational training but I say that the proof of the pudding is in the eating thereof. I believ e my honourable friend me ntioned at the present time there are some 7000 odd young men and young women in training. I say to him this is fine providing that at the termi nation of their courses there are 7000 odd jobs ready for these young men and women.

Now I happen to work for a rather large corporation, I think the largest employ er of labour in Canada, namely the Canadian National Railways, and I am pleased to note that the instructor from MIT bring their students out from time to time to go through the shops at Transcona to see how we are conducting our business there. I thin)<: this is good.

When I'm talking to some of these young boys --the girls haven't got out th ere yet-- but when I am talking to some of these boys-- they are taking courses in welding and other courses simil arly that would or should put them in a position where they could take jobs such as the nature as we have in the railways, but I find that when I speak to them of the courses that they're taking, they are not the type of courses that would allow them to complete their training at MIT and come in to the railways as mechanics. It seems to me that following this they have to go in to another field of actual apprentice training.

Now then -- my honourable friend the Minister I

March 29th, 196 5. 10 55 (MR. PAULLEY cont 'd) ....... of Labour says "Yes this is right. " Then Mr. Chairman may I make this point. That if they take two or three years at MIT then have to take a four or five year apprenticeship training as they do in the railroads here in Canada, it seems to me that there's not going to be full utilization of their talents that they apply to the training that they are getting at the MIT . Another observation Mr. Chairma n which I would like to make and I possi bly fear the wr ath of my honourable friend the Minister when I pose this question.

As I observe the number of courses that are now being offered at a technical sc hool it does appear to me that there are a number of courses which are being offered and which are attracting a considera ble number of our young people, that they 're cour ses in industry or trades that are gradually dying as the result of automation. I'm thinking, Mr.

Chairman, may I -- and I ce rtainly don't want to di s co urage any individual who may be taking this partic ular course that I have in mind at the pre sent time at MIT beca use I think it's all to the good -- I'm thinking for instance auto body workers, sheet metal workers . My observations are that at the prese nt time there is a con sider-able number of trained mec hanic s, auto body workers who at the prese nt time aren't re ceiving sufficient income in the pursuit of their particular jobs . I also had one or two others, and I confe ss that I haven't them with me at the present time Mr.

Chairma n, some of the other courses that are being taught at MIT which will not be in those particular trades that can assure them future employment in our automated age. I think another one mi ght be my own trade, Mr. Chairman, that of an upholsterer. These boys when they come out that are in this particular trade I am more than interested in as being possi bly their future employer with the railway.

But here again is a --and again I hope nobody gets me wrong that I am trying to cast any reflec tions on those that are taking-- but here another field at the present time that we have to my knowledge a fair amount of unemployed or individuals who are not being able to apply their talents to the full advantage t.'1ey should. I wonder if the Honourable Minister could com ment on a few of these particular course s. Could he tell me what guidance is given to a student who applies for application to our technical training school as to the likelihood of future employment in the industries concerned. You know, Mr.

Chairman, we've got a resolution before us· under debate dealing with the que s tion of automation and this is going to affect a considera ble number of the basic trades that we've had for generations, but many of these trades are now dissi pating. They are going out. Maybe members of the com mittee had the opportunity as I did last night to watch "This Hour Has Seven Days" in respect of the press people down in Tor onto. It's my underst anding, and the Minister can correct me if I am wrong, that there are still some cou rses being offered in this field.

If this is not so ce rtainly there are in some of the fields that I have in mi nd at the pre sent time . So I want to know from my honourable friend what guidance, are the facilities of guidance provided for a young man or a young woman who makes application to go to MIT so that he can sit down with a counsellor, before the trade that he is going to accept for his training, to find out what the future holds in those particular industries.

I also would like to know from my honourable friend if he has the figures, if he has a record of the number who have recei ved di plomas at his hand who are now engaged as a result of their training at MIT or any of the sc hools. Also I want to know from my friend what actual negotiations are taking place or have been taking place with industry generally insofar as the cont inuation of training of the graduates from MIT. I think that I did mention Mr.

Chairman that, and the Minister of Labour nodded his head, that after the training they receive at MIT then they commence their apprenticesh ip train ing in industry. Now I think that it would be well, if indeed it is not being done, for an arrange ment being made so that the perso n concerned who is taking MIT would receive credit in his apprentic eship trai ning for the time that he takes in MIT . I am not aware thact this is actually done in order to reduce the time of apprenticeship.

I do know that insofar as we are concerned in the railway that this is not so, that a young man, a woman, even though he or she may have completed the training at MIT, if they start in the railway they still have to take the full five year course as an apprentice . I think this is vital and I think there is an area where there could be greater co-opera tion or understanding between an industry such as the railway which is not there at the present time .

So I say to my honourable friend, I for one in this committee, I am sure there are many like me, apprec iate very very much the incre ased emphasis on trai ning, and re-tra ining, voca tional training; but we must be assured that those who are taking this training are being trained in those industries which may not be affected by the trend in auto mation and we must make sure that there is provision of jobs· for them.

1056 March 29 th, 1965. (MR . PAULLEY cont'd) ...... . And again I repeat what I said at the offset, the Minis ter mentions with pride, that there's approximately 7000 in training at the present time. I would like him to be able to say to this commi ttee, yes we'•ve got 7000 in training, we 've got 14, 000 jobs waiting for them, so. that they would be able to apply their new found skills to the betterment of the Province of Manitoba, and of course our nation generally . These few com ments may be of some value to my honourable friend; they may not. I would like tohear from him in connection with them.

Again I say Mr. Chairman, the mere annual increase in the amount of expenditures for voca tional training is not going to do the job unless the other se gment of our economy advances with it. MR . SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (St. John's): Mr.

Chairma n, I too would like to add a few comments to what has been said and I must say that I was somewhat amused but not sur- I prised by the expre ssions of the Honourable Member for Burrows who pictured the department � of education's work in vocational training as being the place where industry has a right to de- ma nd bodies to fill the factories and provide the hands to produce industrial development.

I don't know that there's really much difference between what he wants to accomplish out of the voc ational training and what other people in Manitoba want to accomplish from vocational I training, but I certainly always have felt that the purpose of training is to equip the people, and mainly the youth of this province, to take a full and proper place in society and in the econo- mic growth of soci ety and of the province .

I would much rather look at it in the positive fash- · ion of equipping our people for te chnology and automation rather than thinking in terms of the words used by the Honourable Member for Burrows : provide workers for industry; provide the neces sary personnel for industrial development; provide a source from which industry can draw. And once I have had occasi on to disagree with his termi nology I do want to appeal to him to refrain from using expressions such as he used and which I am sure he did not mean in the sense in which it may be mis read, and that is an expression such as "nigger in the wood- pile .

" I know that I together with many other people are sensitive to that expression and I would like to feel that he agrees with me in that sensitivity. I wonder too, Mr. Chairma n that the Honourable Minister has allowed him self to be carried away ;with his enthusiasm which is apparent in speaking of this mas sive attack on the problem of economic development. I think we should look at the progress in the proper per spective and that is in the perspective of what we have to face.

I would like to draw to the Honourable Ministe r's attention a Brief which I am sure that he recei ved on Thursday or Fri day of last week addressed to him and to the Honourable the First Minister from the joi nt actio n commi ttee of the school board and council of the Seven Oaks School Division No. 10. I doubt if he has had time to read it be cause it 's pretty fresh off the press and he has had many things on his mind .

But I take the liberty of reading to him a couple of paragraphs from page 6 as 1 follows: "The Commi ttee on Manitoba's Ec onomic Future better known as COMEF has painted a very pretty picture of Manitoba's future in its report 'Ma nitoba 1962 /1975' ." The very first statement in this report in

Chapter 2,

part 11 is very pertinent, and it quotes: '' An essential requirement for the potential eco nomic development of the province is a well educated technic- ally skilled labour force. " And the brief goes on to say, "This report written in 1963 has al- ready been outdated in some of its inferences about general training requirements of the Mani- toba labour force 1961 /1975, table 11 (4). " I brought out the report to look at table 11

(4) Mr. Chairma n, and I find that there is a project ion there of Manitob a's general training require- ments. It appears on page 11 to 14 of COMEF report. And it states that in 1970 the general trai ning requirements show basica lly unskilled 34. 5; the requirements in 1975 --and there is a mi sprint here which reads 1970, but obviously means 19 75- - indicate that the basica lly un- skilled would be 34. 6 percent, and the footnote to that states that unskilled oc cupations plus all employed in resource extractive industries. It makes that explanation.

Now the brief from the Seven Oaks School Division, goes on to say, "No soci ety can expect to be healthy or wealthy which bases its future on over one-third of its labour force being basica lly unskilled in 1970 . Such internationally renowiUJd educationists as Dr. Ernest Melby, Dr. H. mry Linde , and Dr. James Konant have predicted that by 19 75 between four percent and eight percent of the jobs available will be suited to the unskilled.

If our educational system is to be designed to cre ate a basica lly unskilled labour force of 34. 6 percent of our total labour resources, the province will bankrupt itself in welfare costs . Manitoba already a 'h ave-not' in the eyes of the rest of Canada will become a 'has been' or a 'never was'. The brave new world of COMEF will never exist for Manitoba. " And then it goes on to rem ind us that Benjamin Franklin over 20 0 years

March 29th, 196 5. 1057 (MR . CHE RNIACK cont'd) ......• ago and George Herbert 100 years ago, before him, not ago, but before him, said "for want of a nail the shoe was lost; for want of the shoe the horse was lost and for want of a horse the rider was lost".

I think in that perspect ive we mus t never allow ourselves to be carried away with too much enthus iasm for what is being done , because we 've already discussed the problems which Manitoba faces in terms of automation and in terms of the trend and the need for skills and it seems to me that in the light of the need the accomplishment although maybe good, is still not in such enth usiastic terms as has already been given to us. ' I would also like to draw to the Minist er's atten tion a Brief which we all of us re ceived some time ago on guidance and education which was submitted by the Public Affairs Comm ittee of the Winnipeg

section of the National Council of Jewish Women of Canada. This has an inte resting appendix attached to it dealing wi th co-operative education and it desc ribes in a two page form a course which has been carried out in the City of New Yo rk and which they sugge st mi ght be practical here, and outline it as being, combining rather the theoretical in struction of the classroom with practical experience in a related job. It seeks to develop voca tional efficiency and a better person al and social adjustment among young people through the jo int efforts of the schools and the bus ine ss community .

The brief of course does not deal with in-plant training or with straight vocational tr aining but rather training at the high school level; and at this level for pupils who plan to end their education in high school they describe a job placement met hod whereby jobs are obtained by the Board of Education for the student s in reputable well known carefully supervised conce rns .

And I'm again quoting from this brief: "All co-operative pu pils are in full time classes for the first two years of high school, this is out of a four year high school program, during the latter two years pupils attend classes and are employed in related jobs on an alternate week, two week or six week plan. Pupils work in pairs, one at school and one on the job, thus the job is always covered on an annual basis . Initially the employer tra ins two individuals who continue with the firm until graduation from high school at which time they are available for full time employmen t.

" I don't propose to read all of this Mr . Chairman. I think we have all received this Brief and I hope that the Mini ster and his department have paid a great deal of attention to it. It is indicated here that the employer plays a very important role in takin g a deep int erest in the development of the skills of the pupil and works together with the school itself. · I'm quoting again, "Employe rs rate co operative pupils on pers onality and job performances as a diploma requirement. School credit is authorized for satisfactory work ratings ".

And it states that co-operative pupils rece ive the prevailing wages paid to other workers performing similar dutie s. Now this it seems to me is not a great big massi ve program but one which could be eas ily brought into eliect.

It seems to me that government, municipal, provincial has a great deal of use for clerica.1 per sonnel, for other type s of skills, and having the inte rest of the commun ity more at heart than one may ex pect from private ente rprise could well work together with a school system to bring in pupils and help train them and equip them for life in the oute r world, if I may call it that, and yet as part and parcel of the educational process; so that a pupil entering into third year high school would know that this month the pupil attends school, next mon th the pupil will do some work in an office or in some other type of wor k, it could be a job in factory or elsewhere, for a month and then come. back into school and share the experience s of learning in school, learning at work and at the same time adjusting to society.

I commend this Brief to the attention of the Minister and to all members as one which has a challenging idea and which I think is worthy of further study . MR. JOHN P. TANC HAK (Emerso n) : Mr. Chairm an, I will not be very long and I will not be intrigued by any thing, but I would like to draw attention to some oi the values of this program as far as the rural areas are concern ed.

I do not begrudge the opportunity of this prog ram --and I am not belittling the program at all-- wi ll provide the students of Greater Winnipeg and some other larger school areas, even school centre s as far as rural Manitoba is concern ed . But it seems to me that this is of very little value. It's not as explosive as the Minister has told us, as far as some of the rural areas are concerned, and espec ially those areas which have no larger facilities, sc hool facilities. I believe that this will not benefit them as much.

For some time we know that it has been the objective of many Manitoba educators to provide all Manitoba children, and the governmen t says that too, and particularly those of rural Manitoba because Winnipeg has already these opportuni ties, wi th an equal educational opportunity. But in order to give them this opportunity school children must have access to facilities which can offer th ese opportun ities, that is larger schools . Now that has been

1058 11arch 29th, 1965. (MR . TANCHAK cont'd) ...... threshed over before but I think it' s in order to mention here again. I've always been in favour of larger schools and I' ve been in favour of centralization. Co ntrary to what the HLnourable 11ember from Souris -Lansdowne the other day said, he said that I had voted against the school division. I think that shows his gross ignorance of true facts because neve r did I vote against any school divisions or larger centraliza tion, and he knows that that is a fact.

But I suppose he 's been so anxious to defend the government he got up and grasped at floating straws at anything to defend. So I'll still say that he is last as I said before, last to grasp the true facts in this House. I would suggest that he look back through the journals and do a little bit more home work. Now as far as education in Manitoba is concerned, there are many proposals that have been advanced to realize the object ives of the Royal Commission Report on Education. At present we have winds blowing --and I don't mean the cold winds outside-- across Manitoba. There are changes.

A whole new series of educational programs are being introduced into our educational system; and the present process of thrusting new course programs on the present high schools especially in the se small ones seems to aggravate many educational problem s. In my opinion .it's a greater workload that's being placed upon the staff, thus decre asing their efficiency in those schools and it is only a matter of time until the better teach ers are driven out into the urban areas and it will aggravate this situation more.

The Michener report recom mended that an effort be made to change this condition, especia lly in the rural areas, and up grade the general level of education in these areas. And it specifically recomm ended at that time that all schools be consol idated into larger units at all lev els.

This has not been done and many of these schools will not be able to provide the General Course as I said before and I know that especially in one of these in (b) 4 or (b) 3, Apprenticesh ip Training, most of them do require high school standing and probably the General Course, but that will not be possible in very many rural areas; therefore I do not think it was of great a value as far as the rural areas are concerned. I'l l say that again. I've said it a numbe r of times and I' m sorry to say this but in the rural areas the government gave in to the philosphy of the small local board con trol .

I notice that the Honourable Member for Rhine land seemed to think I was wrong when I supported the larger consolidation and I think this kind of philos ophy is hampering the progress of education and frustrates many of the objec tives that are so necessary at the present time . This system of checks and balances as we: have been used to is a product of a past era proba- bly when communica tion was slow and when education was very simple . But times have I changed and it is absolutely nece ssary to have the se larger schools.

Members of some local boards seem to possess kind of irrational fear of concentrating authority belie ving that this power will somehow be misused against them . I've never been of that belief. I have always felt that it is absolutely necessary in our modern times to have these larger schools in order to provide equal opportunity for all the children of Manitoba.

It seems to me, I believe it very strongly, that there will be many costly government mistakes that have to be corrected at a high cost now before equal opportunity of education is achieved, especially in these rural areas, before we can take or de rive full benefits from an item like this for which all people in Mani- toba have to pay. I notice it 's about a million and a half that the Province of Manitoba has to pay plus recoveries from the Government of Canada about three, no, it's more than that, $3 mi llion, so it's quite costly.

But I regret that not all areas of 11anitoba will be able to benefit from this program, which I am not criticising as far as larger centres are concerned. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable 11embe r for Burrows. MR . SMERC HANSKI'': Mr. Chairman, I certainly support the Vocational Trai ning and I can't foresee where you can have vocational training and have no relation to the vocation al training in reference to industry. People who go through vocational training naturally are looking for a position to better themselv e s in industry.

Now I can't see where you are going to have to train people through the vocational schools and !hardly think that you would want to send them on to university because this is not the proper background for this type of training. I think that if the Honourable Minister is able to co-ord inate and consol idate his efforts into a good aggressive program under one heading I think that much can be done. Now a few things were said about automation and I think that if we understand the problem automation does not displace jobs.

Automation calls upon the additional related sciences of the television control system, instrumentation, electronic control system, electri cal control system s, all these; and if you were to add the number of man hours that goes into this type of technica l work it will outweigh the number of man hours that mi ght be displaced

March 29jh, 1965 . 1059 (MR . SMERC HANSKI con t'd ) ...... from the standpoint of work or con trol. I think that some of the people who toss around the word "automation" only look on one si de of it. They do not see the other si de of it. This is a method whereby you can produce a better product, more ef ficient product, a product that has a better control on it. I think that in our voc ational train ing that is one point that I cert ainly do wish to co mpliment the voc ati

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-4-42
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 4th hansardpdf 42.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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