Time : 2: 30 p.m . LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - FITNESS , RECREATION AND SPORT MR . CHAIRMAN, Morris MacGregor (V irden) : I call the Committee to order. 2. (e) (l ) - The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR . DOERN: Mr . Chairman , I'm glad to see that the two main antagonists are here , name ly my coll eague and I so that we can at least have a debat e going here . I did want to make a few remarks on what he said and then I want to ask some other questions about coaching and so on. My col league from St .

Boniface was talkin g about the fact that most nations support their athletes and that there is wide­ spread professionalism in the eastern bloc and I agree with that ; I don 't dispute that ; I recognize that . All the information we have seems to indicate that but there is als o a great deal of professionalism among other places in the United States .

I raise this because of the fact that there seems to be a lack of support in Ganada so that if a typical American athlete - I don 't know if you want to call a col lege athlete an amateur when he has his tuiti on paid , his fees paid , spending money , some cases cars and everything else - and some of the people who are really into sports might remember Hugh McHelhenny who was a great football player , I think from Washington , who was introduced as the only col lege foot ball player that ever took a cut in salary to tu rn pro .

So I'm saying , on one hand , you have the United States with it 's vast supports through fraternit ies and alumni associations providing their so-call ed amateurs with all kinds of funds and then , on the other hand, you have the eastern bloc which is government sponsored and then way off on the sidelines is Ganada . And so I'm simply saying that there is a need for support . Now if the busi ness sector wants to , I suppose step in, that might be a good thing.

The proble m there is if you leave it up to business is, I suppose , in most cases they want recognition.· And if they want recognition then you ' re into people wearing signs on their clothing and on their tra ining suits and their shoes and their armbands and their sweatbands and hat s and everything else , and that 's a particular problem. In terms of drugs, there are drugs being used , there are drugs being used throughout society and I don 't think that benzedrine and all kinds of other drugs are unknown to Canadian and American athl etes .

I used to compete and I never took anything and never dreamed of it but there were always rumours about amateur athletes taking things, I guess which would vary from pain kil lers , which might sound okay but when you ' re injured it might not be a good idea to play to benzedrine and other thin gs .

Now, I want to get onto a couple of other points and I want to ask the Minister what he has done , or what his govenrment has done , to deve lop coaching in Manitoba to improve the quality of coaching and again, I take as an example my own exper­ ience in being an observer and a keen fan of the Olympic Game s, that the big team that has come alon g in the last ten years is East Germany .

If you went to the Games at one time , there was a great deal of exc itement , I guess, when the Soviets started to get into the Olympic s again somewhere in the '50s or in 1960 , and all of a suden in the last couple of Olympics you start seeing all these East German athletes wiping out the compet ition. A countr y of 20 million , smaller than Canada, and if they don 't come first , they come second , and if they don 't come second , they come third .

And it wouldn 't surprise me at all if either in 1980 or 1984 they won, because normally I guess it 's a toss-up between the Russians and the Americans , and the East Germans come third in total points in medals and so on , and my understanding is that their success is due to their investment in coaching, that they decided somewhere al ong the way - and I'm really quoti ng a CBC - 1797 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 radio documentary that I heard - that they made a substantial inves tment and con­ tinued to do so in terms of properly training coaches who can th en properly train athl etes , and that obviously is the only way to go. If you start training indi­ vidual athlete s, that 's fine . You train one at a time , but if you train one coach, he might then train 100 or 1,0 00 athletes in the proper diet , proper training , weight liftin g, everything connected with sport .

So I just ask the Minister if he could enl ighten us as to what the provincial government does in terms of coaching cl inics and providing seminars and literature and anything els e that would improve the cal ibre of coaching . And in that I als o say that my col league from St . Boniface talks about some of the more unsavoury side of coaching where you have lunatic coaches who instruct their players to go out and maim and anythin g short of kill opposition players . This is all too frequent in hockey .

Hockey is the biggest offen der , I suppose football to a lesser extent , and then I don 't know where you go from there , basketball where you shove somebody into the brick wall or what, but there 1 s a lot of bad coaching going on in hockey where young players are really taught violence and practice it with great skill . I'm just thin king now, in

part icular, of coaching in regard to track, but in regard to all spor ts, can the Minister tell us whether he has made any improveme nts , had any plans or ideas to do something there? MR . CHAIRMAN : The Member for St . Boniface. MR . DESJAR DINS: Mr . Chairman, I think that eith er my conf rere here hasn 't really understood what I said or he wants to help me make my point . It was mentioned that I talked about profession als , and I was tal king at the Olympic lev el, and he 's saying that there 's a movement now and there 's more and more. Of course . I understand that and that is what I deplore .

Not truly profession al, but those that masquerade under amateur and are profession al , and I certainly , I'm not going to accuse the member of saying , well, if we can't beat them , join them. And try to say , well that 's being done , let 's do it . But that 's the impression that I have , that he was saying . Maybe I'm a dreamer, but that 's exactly what I don 't want to see, especially if it 's going to happen , let 's not have any govern­ ment encouraging that . Let 's stay out of it.

There is no doubt in the States you have col lege footb all , which is professional up to a certain point , and even there there 's a lot of po litics, because they are looking at lucrative TV contr acts ; they are looking at new facilities and being able to use that money to build up the unive rsity , and they 'll stop at nothing. Of course I don 1 t want to generalize, but every indication and the pressure they get from the alum ni , and so on, will induce them or encourage them to break every rule possibl e.

For instanc e, not too long ago , you 've had people that were forging degrees, so people can participate in sport s at the university level ; that has happened all over the place . Forging degrees, not even atten ding, or some stupid degrees. I'm saying that this is what we want to change, if anyth ing. We want to change the whole concept of sport s. I don 't think that sports should be an end in itse lf. What is sport? Sport could be, what? You can have, well of course you need profession al, because viewing sport s, if you want to call it that , is important .

There 's nothing wrong with somebody , after a hard day , going to see a hockey game , or a baseball game , and saying people that are devoting their lif e to give you this enjo yment . I don't see anything wrong with professi onal sports but I don't think that it is the role of the government to even encourage professional sport s. I don't say they shouldn 't but certainly that is not the responsibility of the taxpayer ; this is not more than they would somebody else in another form of live lihood . I think it 's great . I'm a real fan.

But when we are going back to the Olympic s, and he was referring to what I said before the lunch hour --(I nterjectio n)-- No , I'm not against the arena grant ; in fact this is something that I want to talk about , and the arena grant was done for a purpose and it is to get a team in this league , and the cost , actually , the way it 's done, I'm not against it at all because that was supposed to be done by Canada and then there was a deal , and the Minister can correct me if I'm wrong , that they were going to pay that out of Loto Canada and the province is supposed to take over that lott ery and they are taking part of that to help Winnipeg build an arena .

But certainly , if I was to priorize it , it wouldn 't be my first - 1798 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 priority . Mind you , this might not meet with the priorities of the sport s writers but they have their responsibility and we have ours , and I have mine. And I think it 's great . I have encouraged that and advocated that in the past , but it is not my priority . But the main thin g that I'm talk ing about is that the gover nment is involved in community recreation, in fitness and am ateur spo rts for wh at?

To use sports to help people in their leis ure time for recreation, and then to promote a lifes tyle that will promote the good life and a healthy body and a healthy mind , and people will be much happier. --( Int erjection )- - Like me , yes . This is what I would like to push. And I certainly would not say , we ll all right , the communist countries are doing this, they are doing it in the States , and why is Canada, we'll join them. No , I would say , at the risk of having everybody against me , if that was the idea , I would advocate that we pull out of Olympics or any of these games at all .

And if you 're going to have the true spirit of the Olympic s, you might decide to have the Olympics in Greece or somewhere else , a permanent site, and I think that you should have less of this temptat ion then to try to make a big show, the government steppi ng in, to have all kinds of facilit ies , the biggest stadium and so on, and you will resist the temptation of giving , adding the points by countr ies, and you will make it equal for every

part icipant . Maybe a dele ga­ tion of one from Panama, compared to the United States ' delegation , or Rus sia . This is what I would like to see . Now, if somebody has developed skills by competin g and being developed to enter the Olympic s and so on, and if later on they want to turn pro , I don 't see any­ thing wrong with that at all .

I don't want to be misunderstood , but the respons­ ibilit y of our government is mass participation and no t to try to go, not more than, especially the party that my honourable friend and I belon g to , pride our­ selves in trying to give as many people as possible an equal chance, not to go to the el ite, and it would be wrong, ju st as wrong, to ju st favour an elite. Again , it 's not a question of communism that everybody will be the same and you 'll block the athlete s that have more tale nt , that 's not what I'm saying at all .

But we can 't put all our eggs in one basket , and this is not our first priority as a governm ent . That 's the main thin g. Maybe we can't reverse the tren d , maybe it 's too far gone . If that is the case , well, I'l l go to the Olymp ics stric tl y as a spectator to see the talent and· I won 't worry about the other thing , but I won 't worship at the altar of Olympic and amateur sports anymore . That is the different thing. As I say , maybe I'm a dreamer , maybe it can 't be changed . You know, they are stopping games now in the midd le of a game so you can have your commercial on TV. The TV runs the show.

They can start at 6 o'clock in the morning , a game , so it could be seen somewhere els e . And that to me is defeatin g the purpose that we have here , at least as a very humble Departm ent of Fitness and Amateur Sports in the humble province of Manitoba , where we are tryin g to promote sports to help change the lif estyle and to make people happier and healthi er, and enjoy recrea­ tion instead of being drugstore cowboys. That is the differenc e. Leaving the Olympics for awhile anyway , talkin g about the coaching and talkin g about hockey , again, I want us to be fair .

I would congratulate Manitoba and the Minister and the Manitoba Hockey Assoc iation , because they 've come a long way. I don't know if my honourable friend knows that there 's no body contact or slapshots at all until you 're 13 years ol d . And that 's a good start . And the mask , the mask in all amateur sport . I think that 's a big improvement . They don't do that in Ontario , they don't do that in - I don't want to go on the record as saying they don 't do it in other provin ces , I'm not too sure , but I know they don 't do it in Ontario and I think that maybe Quebec is moving in that direction.

They 've sent somebody to see what we are doing . And there is none of that . I've got interested because I've got grandchildren playin g , and I've got interested in that type of hockey and I've had a lot of fun. They 're playing good hockey . I haven 't seen a single fight . Who in the hell in his right mind is going to punch somebody with a cage on, for one thin g , and there 's no body contact at all.

In fact, I think that that would help in going in the • • I still depl ore the brutal ity ; not roughness, because hockey is a body contact sport and I like a good rough hockey game , but the brutality that you see . There was an art icle that I cut , in yesterday 's paper again, about the brutality that you see in profes­ sional sport . I think that maybe where we can help is in co-operation with the - 1799 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH, 1980 CAHA and I know that the dep artment - I don't know if it 's cont inuing that - has helped people do exactl y what my friend was talking about , help in developin g coaches , I don't know if you still have that , you had Buck Matiowski help ing with that, and special funds for that for developing coaches , and I think they are coming a long way. And I would like to see more and more keep that cage on as long as possible and eventually - and the pros will probably laugh at me for saying that - you might see it in the pros.

It 's not as glamorous when you don 't see the blond hair -- ( Interje ction )- - well, that 's it , if you don 't see , but I remember that , I was connected with Montreal Canadiens when they got rid of Jacque Plante because he wanted to wear a mask and I thought that was ridiculous. He was supposed to be a sissy .

Who in the hell , people in his right mind 's going to play in the net when the teams practi se to hit the shot , park themse lf in front of the goal --( Interj ection )- - I hope that my interest is more than watching to see if they have a jock strap ; my friend can take care of a jock strap and I'l l try to take care of the rest. Mr . Chairman, I think that this is something - now you wouldn 't see any goalee without a mask and I think eventually • You know, when I first started playing footb all , there was no mask at al l, in fact very small helmet s, and I think that 's an improvement .

I think people losing their eyes and all that ••• I think that if the ot her provinces could do that, I think they can bring the NHL to their knees . Because I think if you force the people , even in junior ranks , eventu ally , to wear that . Mind you that 'll be a fight because everybody will resis t that , it 's not as glamorou s, but if you had that, the peop le wouldn 't dare go , they 'd feel undressed . You can't go all your career up to junior with a mask and all of a sudden go without a mask , you 'd feel undr essed . I dare say that the catchers in baseball at one time didn 't wear masks .

So you know, it would stop a lot of this fightin g , because nobody is going to hit you in the face with a mask; and you 've got pads , if they do n't hit you in the face they can 't do much damage . There would be less accident s with sticks , and so on . Again, maybe this is a dream, but nevertheless I think that when somebody tries something they should be congratul ated , and I certainly congratulate the MAHA for what they are doing here in hockey in Manitoba . I think that 's all I have to say on this subje ct. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minist er. MR . BANMA N: Well, the Member for St.

Boniface touched briefly on the pro­ gram, a number of years ago there was a program instituted cal led the Coaches Certification Program, which is run in conjunction with the universities and the community coll eges . For that particular program there is about $80 ,000 in funds for th is year. We also have a program called Sports Special Pr ojects which diff erent groups can apply to to receive proper coaching.

One of the problems we have had with regard to the develop ment with sports such as gymnastics and other things is the lack of coaches availabl e, especially in rural Manitoba , to participate in these diff erent cl inics. I'm happy to say that , and I use my own small town as an example , for instance there is a gymnastics class start ing up there ; there seems to be more coaches and people interested . This is one of the programs , as I mention ed, which started three or four years ago and it is one of the most advanced in all of the provinces of Ganada right now.

It 's progressed to a stage where it 's well received and we are turn ing out some very good coaches. Again, I have to reiterate really what the Member for St . Boniface said . If we 're looking at the East German or some of the communi st bloc countrie s, they 're not running a sports program or or an athleti c program, they 're running really a state athletic program , and you 've got coaches hired by the state and the students are selected , and I think they have taken a totally diff erent tact than we over here have .

We have said if a little boy or a little girl wants to excel in gymnastics or hockey , we' re going to make that available for them and they can. We don't weed out the ones that are better and then work on those to bring them to an international status . And it 's really , I guess where we're going to put our emphasis , and I guess our emphasis has been more on individual participation rather than seeking out the excel lence in the whole thing. - 1800 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 There are some other groups that are running coaching facilit ies such as the Legion has their spor ts camps , developing some coaching , so we do have a number of programs in pla ce. But as the Member for Elmwood pointed out , in order to refine a sport and make it even more enjoyable for the kids , I think coaching is an intricate part of it and has to be pursued and therefore we' re cont inuing with these programs and expanding them in a few areas. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR . DOERN : Mr .

Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister if he is providing any support for track and field in general , and I'm thinking now in particular of that big once-a-year meet now that the Tribune has taken over . I was just wonder­ ing whether any provincial moneys or support was going into that particular meet . MR . BANMAN: Not directl y , Mr . Chairman.

Some of the groups that part­ icipate, like the Manitoba High School Athletic Assoc iation, the Manitoba Runners Association, the Manitoba Track and Field Assoc iation, are people that are funded as sports governin g bod ies and they are involved in those particular events but the Tribune track meet which is put on is put on by the paper and they bear the cost . One of the unfortunate things, I guess , when you 're dealin g with track and field , is the probl ems that we have of drawing a large crowd .

If that stadium could be fill ed when we bring some of these major star s in, that would make it much easier for us to run some of these events and keep them going . But as a spectator sport it hasn 't really caught on that well in the province and that has been one of the probl ems in tryin g to meet the overhead of those particular games , but they sure have brought in some tremendous athletes . I have atten ded them and seen some good athletes , and I think it is a good way to get some of our local track and field people involved in the sport . MR . DOER N: Mr .

Chairman, I would just say to the Minist er , you know, I've been involved in track I guess since about 1952 or bef ore and track has never had widespread spectator support , but those particular meets are kind of a focal point , there are thousands of high school kids who participate . One of the th ings· that I often find interestin g about those meets is that some of the most exciting events in the even ing are when the high school relays go on.

You know, you some­ how or other get emotionally involved in these events because of the fact they are high schools kids , a number of teams running and the great enthusiasm. So I simply say there that I would ask the Minister if he would , in the favourite word of his government , monitor that situation because I am concerned that it might go unde r.

A couple of years ago we provided funds for a track and that was a major expenditure and a major improveme nt , but as a result of that and the shift from the Knights of Columbus , who coul dn 't carry it any more , and the new track , there was a one year absen ce, so , you know, you kind of had a break in the pattern. Then a year ago there was , I think , a bliz zard . I have gone to , I think , all of them, and there was just over 3,0 00 ; this year is was 5,000 or better. I would ask the Minister to watch that situation carefully in the event that it might go under , to see whether he can provide support .

The other point I wanted to make, Mr . Chairman, before I leave and participate in the farewell to Bob D 'Hont , a Government Services employee of long standing , which is next do or, is I just wanted to ask the Minister for a comment on the Sports Hall of Fame. This was , I guess , a dinner last night which was a new inst itution , it sounded very interest ing , I regretted that I wasn 't able to att end , didn 't really know all the details about it , but it seemed like a great success .

I heard some of it on the radio, some of Capozzi ' s speech which was quite funny , and I gather the Premier was present , I don't know if the Minister was there or any MLAs were there to represent the governm ent . But I just wanted to ask whether what was obviously an excellent idea, and will have a lot of enthusiasm and support behind it, whether the province had any direct involvement or whether the funding and support was indirect through one of the amateur athletic bodies? - 1801 -

FRID AY , 28 MARCH , 1980 MR . BANMAN: Mr. Chairman , the evening was put on by the Manitoba Sports Federation and I guess we can 't really say now it is gove rnment funding , but moneys that they derive right now and use are the ones that they earn as a partner of the Western Lotteries Manitoba distribut or. It was put on by the Manitoba Sports Federation and it 's the first annual, they hope to have that every year now, and I believe there were , how many inductees were there? I believe there were ten induct ees and I understand that the evening went very well.

Unfortun ately , I wanted to be there , but with the Estimates and the Supply Bill going the way it was I couldn 't be there , but I understand they were really enthused by the response from all the people that were there and will continue that in the years to come . MR . CHAIRMAN: 2. (e) (l )- -pass . The Member for St . Boniface. MR . DESJARDIN S: Before we leave that , we have been covering quite a few things on that and I am tryin g not to introduce anythin g new that shouldn 't be there , but we talked about the arena .

Can you give us a report , can the Minister give us a report where that stands now, what payment we have made , and what is our commitmen t, and will there be a debt to the city? The different levels of govern­ ment , what is their contribution? MR . BANMAN : Well, as the member will appreciate about a year and a ha lf ago the former Federal Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport came into town and made the announcement that they would be helping out , up to a maximum of $5 million on a matching basis , all the cities that would be accepted into the NHL sys tem .

At that time the only hitch was that the province come up with $5 mil lion and the city come up with $5 mi ll ion. That was refined later to the point where, after the city had done a number of studies , that they anticipated an expansion of $6 .5 million to $7 mill ion would be one which would enhance the arena and provide a lot of the things that we needed to help out the handicapped and look after all people concerned .

So what happened in the pursuing negotiat ions when the province took over Loto Canada, the Federal Govern ment said that commitments made by Loto Canada woul d have to become the respon sibil ity within the province that they were made. In other words , they didn 't want all kinds of people coming at Loto Canada once it had been wound down and say , we ll you owe us that and you owe us that ; so within the jurisidct ions where those commitments were made then we were respons­ ible for them.

Aft er talkin g to the Winnipeg Enterprises and negot iating with them and the city of Winnipeg we arrived at the figure of $6 .7 milli on, I belie ve , total expend iture, of which the province under this formula would have to pick up a third and the commitment on the Loto Canada was a third . We have to date paid out the commitm ent , if you want to call it the provin ce 's commitm ent , dealing with the $2 .25 milli on has been paid from general revenues to cover our commitm ent .

The other $2 .2 5 million will be paid over a series of five years , the first pay­ ment beginning in 19 82 , out of lotteries ' revenues . So as it comes in we will be earmarking , hopefull y , from the sale of the $10 ticket to cover that particular cost , so we wi ll have to be set ting it aside and making the payments out on a yearly basis . MR . CHAIRMAN: 2. (e) (l )- -pass . The Member for St . Boniface. MR . DESJARDI NS : Mr .

Chairman, this is where I am going to turn my atten­ tion to the Minister , I guess , before that I was fighting with the Minister for the value of the some of the programs that we had when I had the respon sibilit y , but as I said this morning I am not quite as happy with the govern ment in this field . I think that the government see ms to be dragging their feet on this . They froze programs , some of them I mentioned earlier, and I would like to know what happened . This was a commitment of a government and I think that the Minister has to accept the respon sibil ity if these were frozen.

Have they been replaced by any other programs ? It seems to me , and the Minister made a big thing of saying , well now we have our own de partment and it used to be all helter -skelter before in two different departments . Wel l, because of the quest ion of fit ness as far-reaching , I felt that there was nothin g wrong when it was with the Department of Health and - 1802 -

FRIDAY, 28 MARC H, 1980 Social Developm ent , and I think I would like to refresh the Minist er 's memory by reading some of the things that were put out in the news servic e. The reason why we were going in that direction and the reason why I think that - because those things haven 't changed - why I think the government should go in the same direc­ tion . But I get the feeling now that this department is fun and games in sports and recreation mostly , but that fit ness is but a very very sma ll part of this .

This is what I was say ing , that the Minister is not taking advantage of that Advisory Committee , alth ough I think that it did excell ent work. And the Minister did not pursu e, the former Minister also if I direct my remark at the present Minister it is because he has the respon sibil ity , I guess he knows that - I am actually addressing these remarks to his government , the fact that we were talkin g about an interdepartmental committee that would take representation from the Department of Health.

And as I said before , you can 't just talk about fitness and so on if you are not tal king about nut rition, if you are not talking about preven­ tion , and I think there was the Department of Educat ion also , which I think is very important , and that could be far-reaching also . You know, we are talk ing about Day Care Centres and we are talking about providin g meals and hot meals for kids , and we have all kinds of junk food being sold in schools for instan ce. Is that what we want? Mr .

Chairman, if you bear with me I would like to read something , I think that will make it , that it will explain exactl y what I mean and why I think this should be very important . "Of course , it is not possible to legislate fit ness , however to reach dif ferent groups of people with varying needs and concerns with respect to fit ness and li festy le , we intend to introduce a number of programs to encourage positive lifestyles ' participation in different types of physical activitie s." I might say that Manitoba was the only provin ce.

I think there was an ef fort by the federal government and there were meetin gs with the then Minister respon sibile for Fitness and Amateur Sports and the federal gove rnment to go in that direction also . "To reach these groups, fit ness activiti es and resource materials would be developed and assistanc e given to groups interested in introducin g these activi­ ties . Organizations and community agencies would be aided in str engthenin g their deve lopment of activit ies that would ·enhance a fitness and posit ively influence the lif estyle of their members .

"The concern about lif estyle and health is shared strongly by Health Depart-· ments in other provinces and by the federal governm ent . Health and Welfare Canada announced in November 197 6 that two goals of the Department were improvement of the social and phys ical envi ronment in Canada, and modification of certain living habits influencin g Canadian levels of health and fit ness . These goals stem from the close relat ionship between state of health, lif esty le, environmental factors .

"The Federal-Provincial Health Ministers ' Conference agreed that a priority item would be adoption by their Deparments of an aggressive policy of promoting better health and lif estyles . To this end a National Task Force is being set up in the Manitoba Government and the Advisory Council of Fitness and Amateur Sports are actively developing polic ies in this field . "Physical fit ness and a fitness-oriented lifestyle are being recognized as keys in maintenance of good health among all age groups . It is also being recognized that Canadians are not doing enough to keep fit .

Fewer than 15 percent of adult Canadians meet •• ·" that was in 1977 " · •• meet internationally accepted standards of phys ical fitn ess . "The government programs will atte mpt to increase individuals ' own motivat ions through an improvement of lifestyle and make communities and groups more conscious of the importance of physical fitness . They will try to create a social environ­ ment that supports the goal of fit ness and provides access to safe , well-operated programs and facilit ies .

Programs will be developed to cover groups of diff erent ages ••• " I think that is important also , it is not just the kids . " occupat ions , state s of phys ical and mental health , and interest .

Existing organi­ zation s such as YM, YWCAs , employer-employ ees groups , service clubs , senior citiz ens groups and recreation commissions will be used with the initiat ive remaining with these groups to avail themselves of assistan ce ." Then, of course , there was the announcement of the quarter -of-a-million dol lars for the Reh-Fit Cent re , which I think was money well spent , and the government had recently assumed responsibi lity for the operation of the Sports Injuries Treatment Cent re , and that has been covered by the Minister . - 1803 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH, 1980 "The government also planned programs to encourage fitness and participation in phys ical act ivity being developed through the Fitness and Amateur Sport Branch. Others will be developed through a Commi ttee on Fitness and Lifestyle which is now being formed within the governm ent , among other interest groups concerned with fit ness .

Physical fit ness is seen to be an effec ti ve way to achieve much needed ends in terms of better and happier lif esty le , increased product ivity , better health, disease prevent ion, and overall happiness ." Then we went on to announc e programs in the amount of $770 , OOO for these programs , part of the money coming in from the part that was for sports taken care of by the partn er , the temporary partn er, the Advisory Committee , so sports wouldn 't be deprived while the Sports Federation made up their mind ; and some of it , quite a bit of it , came from the government share of lott ery revenue .

There was, as I say , this party community project , this provinc ial fitness recognition scheme , the Manitob a Marathon, the Fitness Incentive Grant Program, and Fitness Instru ctor 's Training and Certification Program. Well, I think that last one is still there , you have the Sports In jury Centre , but there doesn 't seem to be much more than that , and there is an actual reduction in cost . So , I think that , vague ly , the Minister subsc ribed to everyth ing I said , I am sure that he does , but I don 't think that the government has done anything concrete on that .

I think they have kept a min imum of programs and there certainly hasn 't been any improve­ ment at all that I know of. Maybe the Minister can point out to me that I am wrong , but that I think is the important thing , and that is why it was with the Department of Health. This Departm ent seems to be working in a vacuum, it is not working with the Advisory Committee , it is not working whenever they want something I think it is just a show, as I said earl ier, that Commissions that they had .

They have got people in that field, there were medical men, there were heart specialists , there were people that had expertise in different fields . And I think that Manitoba was becoming a leader in this field and I don 't think that it is any more. And this se ems like a lot of money , but there was a lot of money saved . You know, when you 've got a health y populat ion, you have less people in hospitals for one thing , and then they produce a heck of a lot more when they are healthy then if they are missing work all the time .

And then also it creates when people are healthy , they are happier - you know, it is very very far-reaching . Those were amongst the first programs that fell by the wayside because of restraint , and that wasn 't fair because that money was coming from lotte ries and this government is saying the same thing that we said , that that was no way to raise tax unle ss it is for something special and it belonged to the people . I think that it has been a joke , what this Department has done .

This Department is tryin g I don 't think there is any other Departm ent that has been hit by restraint as much as this Department . You know, when we took office there was $30 ,000 spent on sport , $30 ,000 on sport , and there was money when we lef t office , there was way more from the Estimates here that we are dealing with , there was money coming in from the lott ery , there were funds that we had on the lotte ry money that was kept getting interest because we didn 't want to go blindly and have all these programs until there was somebody that could look at these programs .

It wasn 't just a polit ical thing to expedite and to spend to get rid of the money . We were criticized at one ti me because we weren't spend ing the money fast enough. I think that is important . Now there are so many thin gs that were done for sports at this time . We had a big announcement that the Sports Federation would become a partner . Sports lost on that because the whole portion of that partn er, sports , let 's call it sports , was being spent in these programs without interferen ce. Yes , because of the nature of it the government

part icipated in that but we accepted their recommenda­ tion. It was their recommendation. They knew where we wanted to go and they accepted that , and they agreed and they made recommendat ions . We went in th at direction . There was money coming in even from our share of the olym pic , not the olympic but Loto ti ckets sold here . That money was going in there and then there was, on the community side, and I'm not talking about only recreation now because community recreation wasn 't under us but directl y with sports .

We had started and the Minister announc ed , it was in the Throne Speech, that something big , a program for, what is it? Something for the 80 's and by add ing 80 's in there it was supposed to be a new program. It was just an extension of the programs that we - 1804 -

FRIDA Y , 28 MARCH , 1980 had. --( Interjecti on )- - Well , yes because the facilit ies , the capital is there , the fac ilit ies are in place, now you 're going to help to maintain that . In effect that 's what it is , which was the second step . --( Interje ct ion)- - Well , all right , yes , but I think the aim and the intent and pretty well the people that you serve are doing the same thing because you had places there . I wonder, if you 're talkin g about that , I know that at the time we had charts and maps and all kinds of information.

We had , and your Deputy Minister will remember that, we had an excellent man that was doing research for us . What was his name? Taylor was it ; years ago , was it Taylor? And we had charts and every­ thing showing where they were, the arenas and the curling rinks , the skating rink , if it was artif icial ice or not , all over the pl ace. So there were mill ions of dollar s spent in sports and fitness mos tl y with that in mind .

Also I am not sati sfied with the answer that the Minister gave me before the lunch hour - mind you he didn 't have much time to reply - on the question of the games , because I think the games was what we were both after. After listening to the Minister I can make that state ment . He was trying to get mass participation and the games were giving us that.

The games were deve loping volunte ers and lead­ ers in the communities by , first of al l, starting with the regions and then it was giving recognition and it was also deve loping future elite athlete s - when I say eli te, the top athletes - who woul d, first step , compete in the Canada games and then maybe , hopefully and certainly , in the ol ympic or world-wide competiton . I don 't want to mix the two . We 're on fitness and this is where I have more crit icism of the department of the government , on fit ness than anythin g else .

I'd like the Minister to tell us if he subscribed to the same thing , if they feel that this fit ness that sports and , we ll fit ness mostl y , is something that they are aiming at and if this is going to be helpful to keep people healthy in Manitoba , save money for the Departm ent of He alth , I would hope and make a happier people . And if so , I could understand that he didn 't have the responsibility when these programs were frozen . Now I don 't know of any new program that this government has brought in.

Some of these programs were frozen and then month s after the then Minister made a big thing of coming in with a new program and it was , I guess they were unfr eez ing , if I can use that term, unfr eezing some of these programs . Now fine, there was a lot of work to do. We were going in a certain direct ion. We had somebody lookin g in fit ness and wanting to work with the private enterprise , as I ment ioned . The government couldn 't do it all . The government was showing leadership and tried to motivate the people by providing the means and trying to interest the people in the communities .

Because you can't force people , as I said . You can't legislate health or any of these things , but we were motivating them. We were trying to introduce programs that would get these di fferent groups to do something like - what is it -

Part icipaction, that they have in Saskatchewan, that the government of Canada helped promote and trie d in Saskatchewan , and I understand it 's been very very successfu l. So could the Minister take a few minute s , as long as he needs , to tell us where he wants to go , how important he thinks it is , what leadership his department and the gove rnment will give , and then we can go back to the sports and things that I'v e said? I'm talking mos tly about fitness. Now I want to go back to the Sports Federation because it was said when they became a partner that was the best deal that sports ever had.

Well it was , and they accept the respon sibility , that they were cove ring from their own money and we were covering that . That has been reduced . The Minister said himself for instanc e, that it 's been a reduction of funds voted when the Sports Injury Centre , because that wasn 't through lotter y money , that was right from here and that is the respon sibil ity of the • • • No , excuse me , not the Injury Centre , I mean the Administration Centre . I don 't say that 's wrong, providin g that there 's not less money going out .

I think that if you make somebody a partner and they want to run , there are certain responsbili ties that are theirs . But the total amount of money has gone down in the last few years . The total amount of money that was spent in sport has gone has gone down quite a bit instead of increasing. If you take everyt hing from the lottery , from the Sports Federation , from the Advisory Committee on Sports , and from the department 's own estim ates . - 1805 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 MR . BANMAN: We 're dealin g the latter part , so that the record will be clear . The member made reference to the Sports Facilities 80 Program. It is a facilities program deal ing with recreation facilities in rural Manitoba, and to that extent it 's the same as the program which was started back in 1972 , I be­ lieve , dealing with the spec ifics . This particular program is - the criteria are a little different because it 's done on a per capita basis for rural Manitoba only ; it 's done through the mun icipalit ies and a certain fixed amount per munici­ pality , with the other MR .

DESJARD INS : Why for rural Manitoba only ? MR . BANMAN: It was to offset the funds that were given to the City of Winnipeg with regards to the arena expansion. The other thing that should be pointed out is , just the amount expended till 1977 was "4 .8 million on this particular program, on the Capital Facilit ies Re­ creation Grant , 4.8 milli on was spent then. The total now with that Sports Facil­ ities 80 Program would be $9 .6 milli on. So it really breaks out that we've spent about 50/50 as far ar the dol lars are involved .

The doll ars that go for spor ts, if you include the amount spent on behalf of the lotteries , has been slowly climbing over the last seve n, eight years , and there has not been a drop . Some years there has been some anomalies because of the Canada games and some other things. We spent a little more because of the Canada games , but there has been a steady increase over the last number of years . MR . DESJARDIN S : Are you includ ing the arena? MR . BANMAN: No , no , I'm just including lotteries and the programs , not the facilities . MR .

DESJAR DINS : The lotter y revenue is increased , but I think we 're both on record , both parties , to say that we would li ke to see that this has to be done in an orderly fashion, that eventually all revenue from all lotteries , after the expense of policing and so on has been paid , would all leave governm ent . MR . BANMAN : That 's why •• MR . DESJAR DINS : Yes , okay , that 's fine, but you are reducing your Esti­ mates . Your Estimates are reduced compared to what they were, and so on. This is what I meant .

I don 't see in the Estimates any program, anythin g here that you •• . it 's vague , you 've got nothing for games , so therefore there 's no policy that you 're going to keep the games . You have nothin g ••• you 've just got staf f , and certain grants that are changed . For instance, the grants that you have under the next item, sports develop ment , was 358, now it's 270 , because you 're includ ing some of the money from the lottery . MR . BANMAN : Well , Mr .

Chairman, just to deal with that last question, last year as far as the grants to the 61 sports bodies fo r $270 ,000 in the next item, that was in the paid-for-out-of -lot teries bef ore . We worked that into our appro­ priation this year, so that . MR . DESJAR DINS : Well it was always paid completely out of the lott ery ••. MR. BANMAN: No , last year it was paid entirely out of lotteries . Well I should seem concerned - the member does - I would like to get as much of this work into my Estimates as at all possible and I'm striving to that end , but the member can maybe appreciate the dif ficult ies . • MR .

DESJAR DINS : budget that I was • • Can I correct the Minist er, that in 197 7-78 the last MR . CHAIRMAN: Order, if the member wishes to speak, maybe he could draw it to the attent ion of the Chairman so that he could be recognized . - 1806 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 MR . DESJARDINS: We 're not too many here ; we were doing quite well mister, before you came in • MR . CHAIRMAN: I'm sure that they 're going to have some di fficulty back there . The Member for St . Boniface. MR . DESJARDINS: Al l right , I' ll try to behave and make you happy . I might say that in '77-'7 8 the Minister had made a statement that those grants were paid . MR . BANMAN: That was last year. MR. DESJARDIN S : Oh , last year. I'm talk ing ••• last year, unfortunat ely , I was sick in the hospital when this was going on.

My friend from Elmwood was the critic , and af ter hearing him today , I'm quite concern ed. MR . BANMAN: Now, dealing specifically with the comments that the member has with regards to fit ness , one of the areas that was weak when I took over - and I accept full responsibi lity as a member of the government for what took place prior to that - but one of the areas that we were lacking some init iative and some direction on was the area of fitn ess . As a result , we have appointed a fitn ess co-ordinator , and what we have done , as I mentioned the other day , we have adver­ tised for a full-time consultant .

We have put three people in that particular group that will now be working particularly with that . We are coming out with different programs very much along the leve l that the member was reading from the press release . MR . DESJAR DINS: This year? MR . BANMAN: This year we will be engaged as one of the four provinces in a new program called Corporate Challen ge with the federal Department of Health and Welfare , which will encourage corporati ons to get te ams together and we 111 have sort of many little challen ges from one province to anoth er.

It 's a new program which we said we will participate in and our people will be working with that . We. have come up with things like Fit -For-Fun. It 's a program where someone out in rural Manitoba could pick up the necessary information and the diff erent chal­ lenges that are involved to getting to a certain leve l of fitness . When they have achieved that, they can go to our local - we 're using our local recreation direc­ tors through the seven regions that we have directors in. They ' 11 be issued cert ificates . So we are moving on that fro nt . We 've also got the Senior Olympics going again this year .

We 've got the Sports Injury Centre , which I mentioned bef ore we hope to expand , to get into sort of an area where we can judge an athlete before he •••• MR . DESJARD INS: Don't forget the equip ment also . MR . BANMAN : That's right . And we are moving on providing instruc tion classes , not only in Winnipeg here , but in rural Manitoba , for di fferent fit ness lev els.

The other thing that has happened , with the advent of things like the Manitoba Marathon and other things , the heightening lev el, if I can call it that , of public awareness as far as fitn ess, has really increased , and I think we see that every­ where. We will continue to enhance that and sort of help that along by pamphlets and posters . Now, the other thing the member mentioned too , is that you can't really make people get fit if they don't really want to, and I have some troub le, I don't mind saying , with just the st raight advert ising aspect of it .

I haven 't al lotted too much money for just straight advertising , because I think what we'll have to do is get the people in the fiel d and get the int erest going . But it has caught on, and the different instruc tors that have started classrooms - I know, in my area there 's a person that 's instruc ting a class of 40 housewives , that have got it going , it 's a sm all town . And this is happening throughout Manitoba , that people are getting involv ed, and hopefully through thin gs li ke providing certif icates and - 1807 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 help ing them a bit , we can get that rolli ng . But we are , as I mentioned , going to be having three staff people dealing with this particular item and doing a number of things with the dif ferent groups that are involved in fit ness programming , including the federal governm ent . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Bonif ace. MR . DESJAR DIN S: Mr . Chairman , the Minister disarmed me . He takes some of the respon sibil ity , and he agrees that less was be ing don e in fitn ess . I kind of suspect that he is taking the blame for somebody else , but I won 't argue .

I can 't fault him with saying that , in ef fect, they are ready to move in that direct ion • • so , I only encouraged him . And I'm not vain enough to think that the program has to be exactly the same . They change , and if we are going in that direction , I am quite happy . But I'd say that the Minis ter, who repeated a couple of times that they had set up a co-ordinator of fitn ess , that there was somebody there that had been hired for that , that either that person left or was fired , I don 't know.

And mind you , I'm talkin g about Johnston who went to the RehFit , so he was in effect doing that kind of work. I think he went to RehFit, and he 's no longer there . So , you know, it 's not somethin g new. I want the Minister to know that we were moving in that direction. When he 's talkin g about three, I think he 's talkin g about a clerk also , and that work was provided . But anyway, better late than never. I think we lost a couple of years , but if we're going in that direct ion I'l l be very careful to see what happens next year. I hope that we 'll have more of these programs .

Now there is one thing that I take exception to. I hope it 's not because the Minist er is • • well, maybe it's good to change Ministers from the rural to the city . Maybe a city Minister might favour the people in the city and maybe once in a while you have to do the opposi te. But I don 't like the idea that these pro­ grams are only for rural areas . I don 't think that you can compare the arena - the arena was for Manitoba - there 's many , many people that will never go to the arena .

That is pro fessional spor ts ' facilities , and it 's help ing the enterpri se , which is good , but I don 't think that the people - you 're in effec t charging it to the people of Winnipeg now. Yes , because the Minister said that he 's got pro­ grams , and I ask him why only in rural Manitoba , and his exact words were "to upset what is being done in the grant that we gave to build the arena." So you can look at it any way you want . That in effec t means that the people of Winnipeg are paying for the arena .

And that is being done in so many cases , where people of Winnipeg are paying the shot for a certain thing . And I don 't begrudge this program in the rural area . We went in the rural area also , but we also allowed and gave the same facilitie s to the city , you try to even up •• Also , I talked about the charge that we had and so on to see where things were, and we tr ied to, first of al l, look at the facilitie s, the distribution in Manitoba . And it was a matching grant , but we also had some money for remote areas that could not match the grant , or they didn 't have to do that. So we tried to cover that .

But I don't think it 's right to start another program and say the city doesn 't need it, because the city •• you look around in the community clubs here and see the need that they have ; there 's many , many more kids . I don't say they should do it at the det riment of the people of rural Manitoba , but I say that they have the commun ity - you 're help ing the community clubs, diff erent small commun ities , and you 're saying in Winnipeg , well you 've got an arena . Those people that are working in the community clubs do n't give a damn about the arena .

They might go and see a game once in a while but it doesn 't help their kids , it doesn 't help at all. Now if you tell me it 's a question of - we're starting , there 's a limited amount of money and we 're going where the need is , I might st ill argue , being from the city , but deep down , I would und erstand . But if you just tell me that it's because of the arena . And then, actually , they 're paying for something that was paid by the federal gove rnment . That was part of your deal .

You 're taking that money from the - well, the other programs come from the lottery also , but your taking that from the additi on of the Lotto - that 's what you said . You said that you have a deal with Lotto Canada, or Sports Canada , so they don 't go and bother Sports Canada , that one of the condit ions when the previous gove rnment turned the Lotto Canada to you , to the provinces I should say , that they would accept their - 1808 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 responsibil ity , that 's exactly what you said. So that is a commitment to get that , and now they are paying for it , because you are giving another program to the people , and I think that is unfortunate because they sure need it. They need it in the rural area, there is no doubt about that , but they certainly need it in the community clubs here. If you could see the amount of kids that they have, for instanc e, in their hockey program or soccer program and so on , I think that it is needed.

So I have no argument with the Minister if this is going to be reviewed every year, and I hope it will. If your new program could be reviewed every year , and if you felt that you had to start where the need is greater, I'l l accept that , but don 't lock it in that this is som ething that the urban people - there 's more than half percent of the population of Manitoba that are in urban centr es, so don't lock it in that these peop le cannot take advantage of that program, I would sug­ gest to the Minist er. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (e) (1) --pass; 2. (e) (2)- -pass ; 2. (f ) (1) - the Member for St. Boni face. MR.

DESJARDIN S : Well, the sports develop ment , (

f) devel opment , I guess in all fairness , I think we've covered that quite close. And the Minister and the Chairman were good enough to give us le eway , so I'm not going to harp on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (f ). MR. DESJARDIN S : Excuse me , that 's the same number of people as you had last year or befor e, in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (f ) (2) --pass ; 2. (f ) (3) --pass. MR. DESJARDIN S : No , no , not (3) ;

(3) I'd like to know about grant s, and I still say that your grants have gone down quite a bit . Anything that was done by the sport s federation that was clear to these groups - we ll mind yo u, they lost money in most of the ye ars. But then there were grants - the last year that I was responsible for the budget there was $3 58, OOO, plus the amount of lott ery. We. were takin g fu ll responsibility for the administration centre , which was a fair sum , and we had taken over programs from the spo rts federation al so. Now , under this grant assi stanc e, why are you going down?

Are you going down because you 're asking the sport s federation to take part of that respon sibilit y and theref ore , conf irming what I said , that they 're losi ng out by taking over, because you 're giving them quite a share of responsibility with the partnership that you give them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: This figure is broken down into $180 ,000 to assis t provincial sports organizations and agencies to provide opportunities for partic ipating in different technical cl inics, national coaching program and that type of thing.

There is another $90 ,000 in this particular amount which deals with the hostin g of major championships. In other words, when we have a national meet here , whether it be with gymnastics or running event or something , these funds can be applied for and are then paid out for to the dif ferent sports governing bod ies to help alle viate some of the costs of putt ing on a major championship. That 's the $270, 000 that we referred to in the Esti mates. Then, on top of that, we provide $22 ,000 for the Frontier Games • MR. DESJARDIN S : Where 's that coming from? MR. BANMAN: That 's from lotte ries now.

I'm sorry. $79 ,500 for the Coach­ ing Certificate Program, $100 , OOO which I mentioned for ManPlan before , another $100 ,000 for special sport s pro jects, another $90 ,000 for travel ass istance to championship s, $1 75,000 for regional develop ment. - 1809 -

FRIDA Y , 28 MARCH , 1980 MR . DESJARDINS : All right . But you 're just provin g my point . I'm not saying that this is not being done , and in fact I don 't recognize any new pro­ gram. That 's fine . I hope that they were good programs . I am saying , well, a new program might be, but just a changed program , programs that might be modified somewhat. But , from your expla nation of what that money was doing , I have in the Minist er 's book of my last year , exactl y the same explanati on . And the amount was quite a bit higher. And we were also making a contrib ution from the lot tery . You're using lottery .

The point that I'm tryin g to make is that you are spending less money now than even two years ago , total , when I look at the total . You are spending quite a bit less money for all fitness and amateur sports than we were then. That 's the point . I hope that I'm even help ing the Minister in saying this , where I could maybe make his position a little st ronger when he goes to Cabinet and fights for the Estimates .

I know how you handle Estim ates , and I know that he came in the middle of the year , but I think that the former Minister was too lax , didn't have enough weight , and that 's not a pun either, enough weight in Cabinet to push his program. That 's what I was saying , I do n't want you to think that we're bl inded or we think that that stat ement that was said by some members of the Sports Federation was the greatest thing that happened to sports , because I think in general that they have suffer ed. They have suffered some .

Mind yo u, there are certain thin gs they have gained ; they are going to make more and more money , I would imagine, with the lottery , and some day it might come that you might put in the revenue, all the revenue, to divide , of course , now there 's a fourth partn er, we'll talk about that later on. MR . CHAIRMA N: 2.(f )( 3) --pass ; Resolve that there be Granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,515 ,800 for Fitness , Recreation and Sport --pass . The Member for St . Boniface. MR . DESJARD INS: Mr . Chairman , I appreciate the co-operation of you , Mr .

Chairman, and the Minister in dealing with these Estim ates . I, for one , I'm not speaking for the rest of the commit tee , do not want a rehash . I think that we had a fa ir chance, I don 't want to rehash anything unless somebody reminds me of some­ thing when we're talk ing on the Minister 's Salary , except that it was agreed that we would cover the lottery , now and I would like the Minister to make some kind of a progressive report on what is happening , what has happened in the last year or so. MR . CHAIRMAN: We are returning to l. (

a) Minister 's Compensation . The Honourable Minist er. MR . BANMAN : Mr . Chairman , first of al l, let me say , in a brief overview of the lotteries operation , the ticket sales with regard to the Winsday , the Provin­ cial, are very much the same as last year, I understand . There have been fewer, maybe a few less Winsday tickets sold , but generally the operation is very much the same . As of January 1, 19 80 , the distributor Corporation A, started to dis­ tribute the Leto Canada tickets , the $1 .00 tickets .

The distribution of those tickets will be carried on the same way the other two products were distribu ted .

Also , what has happened is that because major banks were sell ing the Loto Canada tickets , and I think all the Ministers of the provinces wanted to possibly use that as a vehicle to maybe se ll the Provincial and some others , the banks have indicated that they did not want to deal with individual groups with regards to the sa le of those tickets , and therefore the dist ribution and the sales of tickets to the banks in the province of Manitoba will be done exclusively through the Western Lotteries Manitoba distribut or . Some of the other provinces will be hand­ ling the market ing of that themselv es .

The major changes that have happened is that the Manitoba Sports Federation has taken the position of the Manitoba Advisory Council on Fitness and Amateur Sport and will , at the end of this fiscal year, at the end of March now , start taking over a certain amount of programming . As we went through the Estim ates , we no­ ticed that some of the programming was being taken over by them, so they are assuming a certain amount of respon sibility . In that particular agreement they have to come to the Minister in January to get their budget okayed so that we have - 1810 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 contr ol. The Member for St . Bonifa ce, I know, is concerned that the control is exercised with any agreement , and I can assure him that that is No . 1 priority with the government of the day also . So , we have checks and balances in pla ce. The other change which will take place, as of the 3lst of this year again , will be the inclusion of TC! , which is a group that is made up of a number of non­ -profit organizat ions .

The obje ctive in including TC! is to, and I know this will have to evolve as we go along , is to become the arm of the lott ery system where non-profit community groups can become involved in the sale of tickets . One of the things that small groups have been complaining about after we got involved in the lotteries field was that it was becoming increasingly dif ficult to sell their $10 ticket, or their $1 raffles on cars and other things locall y , and in order to try and overcome some of the probl ems that they face, we moved in this particular direction. Mr . Chairman, it's got its probl ems to it.

I'm the first to admit that , but I think one of the things that has to be recognized when we are dealing with this particular subject matter is that we had a lot of probl ems bef ore , too . The extra Provincial sales , another two products in the field , and the other things that went alon g with it . We hope now that we have everything under one umbre lla, that we can have a close scrutiny and a close control of everything that goes on in the field of large lotteries in the provin ce.

I'm not talk ing about the car giv eaways and that type of thing , but in the field of $100 ,000 , $5 0, 000 lotteries , so that we can assure the public protection in those fields.

So as I said , I'm the first to admit that there might be some rocks along the way that we're going to have to deal with, but I think hopeful ly , if cooler heads prevail in this particular issue , we will be able to work out an agreement and a working relati onship which will be to the mutual benefit of all the cit izens of Manitoba , as well as get us out of the confrontat ion with the other provinces for extra Provincial sales and that type of thing.

Because that has been another long-standing problem and we really couldn 't go after other people and tell them to stay out of Manitoba if we couldn 't even assure them that we were not doing that . So we hope we will, by doing this , be able to ti ghten up the system in such a manner that we will have total control of it and total disclosure of everything that 's going on. MR . DESJARDINS : Mr . Chairman , first of all I wish to say that I recognize that the government of the day has a mandate to govern the province of Manitoba as it sees fit , and they will have to answer to the people of Manitoba .

I don't deny him that right , of course , it would be ridiculous to try . I think it is their right and their prerogative to bring in legislation or make the arrangements that they want. What I mean is that if they want to bring more people to change the lottery set-up and so on , this is fine . This is their right . And I don't think this is bad . The idea was to start something and then as we go along , I think we went through the rougher years , I think the Minister has got a picnic now compared to what we went through , and I wish him well.

I can't help , maybe this is childish on my part , but I can't help spend a couple of minutes to say that these people that came in, the two new partners since we met last , namely the Sports Federation and the total involv ement group , are people that resis ted , that did everything poss ible , some of their members , most of them , anyway , to prevent the lot tery as we have it now to being a suc­ cess .

I could , I won 't read too much of it , but I could refer you to this group, that group together , that had a submission to Law Amendments Committ ee regarding Bill 27 in May of 1974 , who , fortunately that was a short period of forced holiday for me when I wasn 't sitti ng in the House and I remember being abused quite str ongly on this . There was no member from either side, any side of the House, that came to my defenc e. That 's fine , that 's fair enough, I've got a broad back. But Mr .

Chairman, what we did , I think that now, and I think I should be al­ lowed a few minutes to crow and to show that we were all against tremendous odds , we were building something because we felt that we had to . We brought in this lottery , if you remember at the time , there was a lottery in the province of Quebec , the other lotteries were getting ready , and there was this Golden Boy lott ery here in Manitoba . And it is unheard of. And the Minister , I'm sure , if - 1811 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 he 's not absolutely sure now that afte r a couple of years , we ll one session any­ way, I won 't wish him any longer years than that , although I have a high regard for him person ally , but I think he will admit that nowhere else do they even know what a non-bearer 's ticket is . It just doesn 't make sense in these days of large lottery where there is no security for the people and so on , and then the share , also , of revenue and prices being inadequate . But anyway, this was not aimed at disturbin g anything .

This was not aimed at anythin g but we felt that the other provinces , we knew that the other provinces were getting ready to introduce their lottery , so I think it was foresight and I think it was leadership on the part of Manito ba, who were the first ones to sug­ gest , while we still had something to sell because we had the expertise , we were the only ones with a lottery that went over to the other th ree provinces and suggested we get together to have more security , to cut down on duplication , and to try to make it easier to police the lotter ies and not raid the other 's terri­ tory as much.

So this is what we did. Some of these things evol ve , there are certain things in a political sense , we're all intelli gent enough to know that there are polit ics and if we pretend that we don 't care , we 'd be nuts . And we'd be lying , or we wouldn 't be here. So Mr. Chairman, I think certain thin gs , and I'm pleased the way things have evolv ed.

But at the time it was very difficult because the biggest , the people that resisted the most, it could have been sett led long before , to everybody 's benefit , but there were middle men , and I 111 keep on cal ling them middle men tha t did not want to see the kind of bearer 's tickets come in, who did not want to see the accountability that we have , and who made, in my estim ation , an unfair profit because after all this was something that the l:Lcence by the provin ce , and most of the money , all the money except the cost , was supposed to go back to the people in fitness , recreation , arts and sports , and they were making way too much money , as far as I was concerned .

So it was very difficult , if I had my way I would like to look at who is a member now of TCI , and I think that if the Minister reviewed everythin g , it would be tough , maybe politically he wouldn 't take the st ep, but I don 't, there are certain people that I feel shoul dn 't be there . You know , com­ pare , they might represent one sport , or one part of a sport and so on. It 's a good thing , and it came out as a busine ss , and I don 't think that's there .

Other people of course , I don 't think should be there but I wouldn 't try to get them out because I'm talking about private schools because I think that , and I'm not going to start a debate on that , I think that private schools should be recog­ nized and I don 't think they should have to go, to resort to this means . But in the meant ime, fine , I wish them luck and I hope they do quite well. That is the situation on this group but there are certain groups that I think, first of all , there should be a review to see . Not just a grandfath er 's clause and that 's it.

Let me say that this group then who did everything , who went to the press and lied and made all kinds of accusati ons , some of them person al , and now it 's ironic that now they 're begging and they 're coming in to be one of the partners of some­ thing they trie d to destroy , that many of them tried to dest roy . Having said that , I have no objection. I hope that peace will be made and everything will work well .

But I might say that because they insisted through their midd lemen , through the people that they had a contract with, to keep the non-bearer 's tick­ ets , they as I say , some of the stat ements that they made that you couldn 't en­ force it and so on, they were getting 70 percent outside the province - we knew that couldn 't last because it wasn 't going to be al lowed in other provinces when they started their lotter y , and the Minister now knows that I'm right . So this was one of the reasons that was done . So what did we do? We let them organize and run their lot tery and keep all prof it .

When you had the Golden Boy , part of that went to Manitoba , but not when this was set up as a total involv ement , what is it? TCI - Total Community In­ volvement - they could keep everything except enough for the management , for the operatin g of the , of helpi ng their share , I guess , of the licensing board and so on . I think this is a group that should be very pleased to be in. I'm not sorry . I'm not saying it's bad , but I say their contract is very bad , very very bad .

The Minister was good enough to give me the contract and I think it's very bad , and I think you 're going to regret the day and the gove rnment • I sus­ pect that the Minister is not the person really responsible for that . I might be wrong. I think that this was something that came from above , like so many of the - 1812 -

FRIDAY, 28 MARCH , 1980 bad decisions of this government . -- ( Int erjection )-- Well then , accept all responsi bil ity if it 's your faul t, because it 's a very bad document . You are taking a group , as I said , who did everythin g to kill that before it got star ted . And you are not just bringing them in as equal partners , you are giving all kinds of privile ges which do not makes sen se .

First of al l, you are saying come in and the idea - it 's a good idea to bring them in - is to try to bring order in the lott ery busi ness here in Manitob a , and to try to do away with an obsolete form of non-bear er 's tickets, and you are saying if you don 't like it you can go back to the non-bearer's tickets , which is a step backwards . That 's very bad . That should not be done . If they want to go back, it shouldn 't be non­ -bearer 's tickets , and if you ever go , Mr . Minist er , or through you , Mr . Chairman, to any of these conventions , any of these ideas , and I expect that you will go .

You should go . You will see that they don't know what the hell you 're talking about if you are talking about non-bearer 's tickets . It doesn 't make sense when there is so much money involv ed. You are giving them a chance to go back to the non-be arer 's tickets , and I think that's wrong. That 's No . 1. No . 2 - can you explain why a group that came in, their own lot tery , all of a sudden your making that retroact ive , they ' re going to collect from last April? Why? I'd like to know, which is money that doesn 't belong to them. You are tak­ ing it from the other three partn ers .

I can understand the Sports Federation because that was their slot , and it 's going to sports , but all of a sudden you 're bringing another group and you are taking money away from these three partners to give it to them. Well, aren 't you saying that this is going to take ef fect from April, and this thing was signed when? This thing was signed in January 1980 . Are they going to start collecti ng from the 2lst day of January 1980? -- ( Int erjection )-- When you asked , the Minister shook his head. You 're saying that I'm wrong. This was made. I don 't know when it was signed .

I guess I could take from the same day of January 2lst , 1980 . Are they going to start getting revenue only from that date, from January 2lst , 1980? MR . BANMAN : No , Mr . Chairman. They 'll enter the same time the Manitoba Sports Federation did . MR . DESJARDINS : That 's the point that I made. Why? MR . BANMAN : Which is retroactive to April lst , 19 79 · MR . DESJARDINS : The Minister , when I said exactly this , shook his head . MR . BANMAN : Mr .

Chairman , I want to make it clear that does not effec t the other groups that are involved in it , because the structure of the ticket commis­ sions will be changed with regards to the Manitoba Lottery 's Commiss ion. MR . DESJAR DINS : Would the Minister explain? I don 't know what you mean. It will be changed when? MR. BANMAN : It will be changed to ensure the level of funding for all the different groups at the level that they would have received had these groups not ent ered. MR . DESJARDIN S : Where are you going to get the money from? MR .

BANMAN : The funds are right now accruing to the Manitoba ' s Lotter y Commiss ion , like they always had . The price of the ticket to the WLMB is set by the Manitoba Lotter yies Commiss ion. Right? In other words , the Manitoba Lot­ teries Commiss ion is the agent , if you want to call it , for the Manitoba government . MR . DESJARDINS : Right . MR . BANMAN : We can contr ol, the Manitoba Lottery 's Commission controls the profit to a large extent of WLMB by setting the ticket price. Right? - 1813 -

FRIDA Y , 28 MARCH, 1980 MR . DESJAR DINS : Yes they contr ol the profit to them. Are you saying in effect that the people will have, the three former partners will get the same share as if there had been no change, and then you 're going to make it up with your share - when I say your share , the provin ce's share of the profit ? Is that what you are in effect saying? MR . BANMAN: We have said all alon g , Mr . Chairman, that we are moving in a direction where hopefully we will get the diff erent groups involved in this pa rti­ cular lotter y and slowly move our way out of it , and that is what we are doing.

I don 't want to see somethin g happen that the member is talkin g about , that the Sports Federation or that the United Way suff ers from another group coming in. I don 't think that would right . The Art 's Council wouldn 't want that , and neither would the Sports Federation. MR .

DESJARDINS : Well I commend the Minister for sayin g something that I suspec ted , that he 's saying officially , that they eventually would like to get out of the lott ery all together as far as sharing the profit , and that is the direc­ tion we were going . -- ( Interjec tion)-- Okay , having said that , but I still don 't understand . The thing is that there are so many tickets that were sold and the money went this way, that Manitoba bought it for so much. That can 't change , from Western Canada Lottery Foundati on , that they kept some of it.

They made a profit on th e ticket, on some tickets , not on the Winsday - we ll just enough to pay the bill s , but on others . And you are saying , the Minister is saying , that the groups will not suffer , so that would mean that the Sports Federation , the Manitoba Arts Counc il and the United Way would get exactly what they have if there had been only three partners in that time . But you are , in effe ct , saying that they ' 11 start sharing from the day that the Sports Federation came in, which was April of last year . Where will they get that money from?

If it 's not money from the three other partners , is it money that comes in from you , your share , that is Manitoba 's share of the revenue. MR . BANMAN : Yes , Mr . Chairman. The ticket structure will have to be changed now, starting in the new year , to reflec t that the groups that are in­ volved there right now, do not suffer from this other partner coming in.

In other words the ticket structure , our share of the take at the Manitoba Lotter y Commis­ sion level, will be less so that the overall profit of the corporation A, if you want to call it, next year will show higher , but it will have to be divided . Instead of divided by three , it will be divided by four. MR . DESJARDINS : Right .

I think understand this part , that for the coming year - we'll go back to this last year , this retroac tive , because that 's what I was dealin g with - this coming year, to accommodate a fourth partner and to make sure that the share of three previous partners do not suff er , you rel inquish part of your profi t, approximately $700 ,000 or $800 ,000 , which was a third-share of the total thing . All right , I understand that . That 's fine . So you are moving in that direct ion, which I didn 't know. But let 's go back to the retroac tive . Where do they get that money now?

That 's the part that I want to know. MR . BANMAN: Mr . Chairman, from the moneys that are held in trust with regards to the Manitoba Lotteries Commission. MR . DESJARDI NS : And who did it belon g to ? Oh , the Manitoba Lottery Commission. MR . BANMAN : Yes . MR . DESJARDIN S : All right . MR . BANMAN : To us all . MR . DESJARDINS : Okay , well then, Mr. Chairman , it's not those three part­ ners that are sufferi ng , but it 's practically the same because the Act says that - 1814 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 money that you have , which was you rs, be longed to the provin ce, has to be spent in the field of fitnes s, sport s, and the arts. Part of that , a percentage of that - that 's the Act - a percentage of that was going to the ••• well, it would go to culture . A percentage of that would go for community recreation , which would be sport s and cu lture and leasure . Part of that would go again to spor ts , the pro­ grams that you 've been saying that your going • • • that 's going to suff er. So you are takin g that money .

So the point that I was try ing to make , that somebody that had their own lottery , that did everything they could to dest roy another lottery , come in as partners and you 're giving them a lump sum to come in. That in effec t • • • And I can 't see that . They had their lotter y . They requested , and I don 't deny you the right and in fact I think it was the right thing to accept them as partner s, especially now that I know that you are going to relin­ quish some of the profit so nobody will suff er, that 's fine . But why did you make it retroactive? That I can 't understand .

I don 't think you can say anything , but go ahead , try . MR . BANMAN : Mr . Chairman , first of all , the agreement - and as the member will appreciate, there are many things involved in this and somehow this thing has to try to be resolv ed. And in str iking and arriving at an agreement , an agreement had to be struc k, to my way of thinking , to try and bring a little bit of co­ -operation and harmony into the whole thing .

The thing that has to be appreciated now is that TCI will take on the role of an agency where the groups can help themselv es, raise extra money , but will als o take on the role of providing certain sums of money to groups for purposes that they feel needy . For instan ce, if there is a group that needs money for research in the medical field or something like that, based on a need criteria, that ••• MR . DESJARDINS : It 's another United Way . MR .

BANMAN: If the member will have read the Haig Report , one of the areas - and I don 't agree with all aspects, but with most of them - the Haig Report said that there should be a Manitoba Lotteries and Gaming Commission set up which would look after the licensing of all casinos and everythin g and licensing of all lot­ teries , so that it was all under one umbr ell a . I have a tenden cy , after having. gone through this whole thing , of sort of subscrib ing to that .

But I would not want to see • • • the other recommendation was that group then should also become and hand out the res t of the gove rnment money that was available to the gove rnment discretion - in other words, the money from the Manitoba Lotteries Commission . I don 't see that as being the vehicle for doi ng it . We have the di fferent groups . I think if these four partners over the next year or two can blend and start work­ ing togeth er , I think that is going to be the bes t vehicle for us to use for the whole lotteries system.

And in order to arrive at a settle ment , dealing with this whole thing, this is the agreement that was arriv ed at . MR . DESJARD INS: Mr . Chairman, either the Minister doesn 't understand or he 's trying to throw a smoke screen . He 's bringing all kinds of things that I want to discuss later on, but that 's not what I was discuss ing at all . Now, he tells me that in order to bring this contract, and my impression was that they wanted , that they requested to get in, they requested to come in because they had diff iculty with their lotte ry , and it 's understood .

That 's why we went into this kind of thing because we knew this would happen , that they couldn 't fight all the lotteries of other provinces and so on, and I do not object to them becoming a partner. I commend the government for relinquishing part of their profit to make sure that the four groups, in order to pay more or less the share of the fourth group . Nothing wrong with that , but I still don 't know of any contract - if I had a contract with you , Mr .

Minister , if all of a sudden you could say to me , we ll okay , the fact that you 're a nice guy and you want to enter a contract with me , I'll give you a part of something • • • I'l l pay you to come in. You know, there is nothin g that you can say that will make me change my mind on that . I don 't think that they had ••• you 're taking that money from somebody el se . That money is not you rs .

You are not taking it from the three groups , as I thought original­ ly , but you are taking it indirectly from sport s, from the arts, and that , because that money , according to the Act, you can 't spend it for anything else than that . - 1815 -

FRIDAY, 28 MARCH , 1980 So you ' re taking money that was accrued , and a profit that was for one purpo se , and you are giving it to somebody else . So you can be a nice guy . I think that if there 's something they didn 't bel ieve in, and they were given every chance to have the lottery the wanted it, even with non-bearer 's tickets , they were given lots of latitude as far as accountability is concerned , and they are asking , fine , that 's good , they are asking to come as partn ers , and I have no objection , but you are going to reward them for that .

And I can't see the reason why that would be done , because they were getting revenue bef ore , and that 's extra money that they 're going to get . Okay . That is not the major point , but I coul dn 't see , just as a str aight businessm an, and you ' re a businessm an , a busi­ ness man 's contract , I don 't know of anybody els e that would do that . And you haven 't given me the reason that it should do that . Now , that is one of the situations . But then , the main thing , as I said, that you give them the opportunity to go back to non-bear er 's tickets if they want to.

I think that 's wrong, that 's a step backwards, that 's against the idea of all the concept of the Western Canada Lot­ tery Foundation when it was start ed , and because of the politi cal thing between the different provin ces, you al lowed for population that you had in the provin ce, so many lotterie s, and that was one of them , in fact we gave it all to them. We had special concession by the other provinces to be able to do that , to give them as much as we could , which probably wasn 't enough but it helped , it was the most that we could do , and there is no need.

I think that tney should have a very good look at it before they come in. And if they decide to go back, are they going to give you that money back that you are given for retroactive? Are they going to give that back to the citiz ens of Manitoba? No . That 's not anywhere in there . So I'm certainly not suggestin g for one minute that that 's going to be the reason ,____ but they could sign to come and get this money and then give you whatever the time period is , advise you that they want to get out . That 's pretty good . They can make $800 ,000 and then go back and run their own lottery .

But the main thing is that you 've got a group , and the intent of this organiza­ tion, which the province is saying , you retail tickets for us , you wholesale tickets for us. It 's a partners hip . And within this partners hip , you make one partner a litt le more equal than the oth er. It doesn 't make sense , but I think you know what I mean . That they have some concession that the others don 't have . They will, in effect , compete against themselv es .

They will compete to try because they are wholesalers as a group , and individually they are also whole­ saling , and they will compete to have the retailers sell for them. You 're going to destr oy this organizati on , and mark my words , you 'll have nothing but com­ plaints and fights and problems . How can you , do you know of any other company , if they had Eatons and the Bay would get toget her, fine , you 're partners for this, and people are limit ed , but not one partn er. I'm not saying , don 't change .

If you want a change, I don 't think there 's any need for a change, if you want a change , why don 't you give the same opportunity - do you mean to tell me that TCI is more important than United Way? Does the Minister want to make the state ment now? That TCI is more impor­ tant than United Way? Why can 't United Way become a who lesaler also on their own. And why can 't the othe rs , why can't the Sports Federation? Aren't they doing something worthwhile? I don't want to place one ahead of the other , I think it 's all very good causes.

But why are you selecting one , the one that did not participate at first , that did everything to destr oy it before it could get going , and you had people that took the chance, that fought , they belie ve in work hard and they built something strong , now you ' re let ting somebody come in that will destr oy that. And that 's what 's going to happen. That is going to happen because , if you have seen anywhere where you can give one partner a little more leeway than the other , can you give me an example of that? I am not against them at al l.

I suppose after this stat ement , it 111 be said , there he go es , he 's atta cking us. I'm not . But I want everybody treated the same . It 's the least you can do by somebody that persevered , that kept it against all kinds of odd s, who had worked hard , and now you are saying , you 're not equal , your own outfit , we bring somebody in, but they 're going to have more of it than you are. It ju st doesn 't wash . It doesn 't make sense . If you want to make , then destr oy , disband that Western Canada distr ibutors and let the partners go their way. In fact , cut the partnership and give everybody a - 1816 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 region like is done in Quebec and other places. And maybe that ' 11 help the way they have it, bring in partisan favours and that , and that 's not done in Manitoba , and I'm not suggesting that it 's done now. But you 're going to destr oy that. You are gettin g people who , it is to their advanta ge , to talk somebody into not sell­ ing for Western Canada , and they 're assured of one-fourth in that , but sell for them because they get a higher commission . They get more money for that . And I don 't think, and I can argue that with anybody , it ju st does n't make sense .

And I defy the Minister or anybody else to give me an example - maybe they exist but I can't think of any - an example of what there is a partners hip , and you 're saying to one , well, yo u, there 's a restric tion , everybody has rule s, but not you , here is your set of rules . Here is your set of rul es. Now, not only are you going to be a partn er, that 's what a partnership is for . That you join to work toget her , to try to cut down the expenses . To try to work together and not that kind of compet ition that you put everything in a pool and work to derive as much as possible .

And they are assured of a partnership in that, an equal partnershi p, but you are saying, well, you 're a litt le better than the others , your organization deser ved more than the oth ers, so what are they going to do , they can get the ticket at wholesale and set their own sel ling force. That was the intent of the Western Canada Manitoba distributor s. If you want to do that , Mr . Minister , why not do it for the others ? If you do it for the others , I'm going to keep quiet because everything is fair.

But you 're getting a latecomer , certainly it didn 't help setting up this outfit , and you are saying to them, there 1 s an equal partners hip , but here 's where you ' re going to get , we 're going to give you an amount of money that it took the other people hard work and that to work, we're going to take that from other group and give it to you . It 's our money , you must think it 's your money because you ' re giving it. I'm not talking about what your setti ng for the future , you have the right to do that .

But that money , I don 't know where you th ink you 've got the right to use that money and divert it to somebody else. And you 're saying , you 're going to sell. And then there 's all kinds, I don't want to go into detail s, you 're assuring them, there 's another thing , that all the other partn ers , they could have used that money , they could have that money in­ ves ted , they have a kind of a fund , what it is it? To protect them if something goes wrong , what 's the name of that fund?

They do n't have to put anythin g in . there , you 're making a magnific ent gesture , you 're tell ing them that it 's their money , they won 't share in that . They should have to put one-fourth of that , if they were equal partn ers . I don 't know of any other partnership that would say , okay , you three partners will have to put this money in case something happens , in case it goes bell y-up , but not the fourth partn er. Now, that is another thing that you 're doing .

Another point , and I'm not going to , I think there are enough points , as I say , I'm not against this thing at all , and I think it 's a good idea , if it was fair. And if everybody was treated equal. If the people that slug ged it out against all kinds of adversity and handicap , if they weren 't penalized at this stage of the game. And as I say , why do you select a certain group of people, and I'm not going to name anybody that it could be thought that I'm against them , I'm not .

But anyone in that organization , are they more important of the work that the United Way , and I compare it to United way because it is a form of the United Way. You have a precedent there , United Way is the umbrella group for a certain group. And you are saying to them , but this is what you have . And another point , Mr . Chairman , that you can supervise them to a point , but that doesn 't mean a thing . And I had that problem too .

Because if you look to an organization and you want to look at all their books , they ' 11 have one line , Promoter - so much money and you can 't question that , you can't get that con­ tract. And I think that was a mistake , that was your chance to make sure that you can look into everythin g . And the way this reads now -- ( Interjec tion )- - You have it , you can look at , would you ple ase show it to me and point it out later on in this contract , I'm pleased that I'm wrong in that . MR . BANMAN : Can I just interj ect here , on two count s.

No . 1, they do have to come up with the funds , I think it 's in excess of $100 ,000 , just to clarify a couple of point s here . - 1817 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH, 1980 MR . DESJARDINS : In excess of what's in there now, if there 's any future . MR . BANMAN : No , no , with regard to the amount that has to be put in case of, you know, like a trust fund . So they 're going to have to come up with that money and take it out of the retroactive portion to put in there . MR . DESJARDINS : Right away. MR . BANMAN : The benefit of this particular agreement , and you know Mr . Chairman, I have certain concerns and misgivin gs , along with the member on this particular issue.

But I think , and I can give him the assuran ce, that I wi ll do everything that is in my power - and that particular agreement gives me a lot of power - to ensure that that system is not broken down. The benefit of this con­ tract is that everybody that signs or has anything to do with a promoter of any kind , has to file a contract , a written contract, with the Manitoba Lotteries Commission .

In other words, if some small group hires someone to sell tickets for them, that contract that they have made with that individual has to be filed with the Manitoba Lotteries Commission, has to be ratified with them , it 's on a yearly basis , and the Lotteries Commission can walk in and check those promoter 's books through a registered accountant whenever they deem it necessary . So what is happening here , and there is some give and take in this particular agreement , because before we did not have any control at all over this type of thing .

We could be issuing licences through the Lottery Licens ing Board , which really had nothin g to do with the Manitoba Lotteries Commission , and we had no way of checking on these people or having any proper hold on them on these $100 , OOO non-bearer tickets. And all I'm saying is , I appreciate there are some problems .

I hope, it is my hope, that this agreement will go in the bottom drawer and that these three groups will work somet hing out and , hopefully , in the fut ure , we will have one group that is working to th e benefit of all the di fferent spor ts, cu ltur­ al , and social agencies in the provin ce. And that is my hope . Now, if, - I will give the member the ass urance, that if I see the system eroding , I have enough power within this system to make sure that that does not happen .

But I think it 's an agreement which was arrived at after a lot of serious negotiat ion, and hopefully will be one which will benefit the province . I have no hesitation in saying that if the system is des troyed , if there is any hint of misappro priation of funds in that , I will be the first to put the clamps on the people. And I have the authority , I beli eve , in the agreement to do that . MR . DESJAR DINS : Mr . Chairman , I thank the Minister for his comment s and I am pleased of his ass urance. I want to say that I have never gone as far as to say that they would use those funds for something else.

That 's not what I'm say­ ing at al l. And I stand corrected on one point . I still feel as st rongly on the other two . But would the Minister please show me , maybe I didn't have a chance to see , where he has this autho rity , or somebody has the authority to look at all workings of all these groups , including the contrac ts that they might have with promoters or middle men or that , could the Minister --( Interjec tion )-- well , here , could you show it to me on that? MR . BANMAN: I'll find it for the member . MR .

DESJARDINS : I want it before we finish ; well of course we won 't finish today , I can as sure the Minister of that . MR . BANMAN : I'll send it back to the membe r. It 's 34 on Page 13 , right at the top. MR . DESJAR DINS : Thank you . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. Fort Rouge . I'm sorry . MRS. JUNE WESTBURY : Thank you , Mr . Chairman. I have a couple of questions to ask the Minis ter , if I may . First of all - and forgive my ignorance on this - is all the money that is going from the governme nt to assist amateur sport lottery - 1818 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH, 198 0 money , or is there actual tax money going as we ll to assist - in amateur sport , that is? MR . BANMA N: It 's a combination of both. There is some in the Est imates and there is some in the Lotteri es. MRS. WESTBURY : Thank you. The ManPlan Program , I understand that the leve l of spending in that Program has not increased since about 1967. Has there been a recent increase? MR . BANMAN : I couldn 't tell you exactly , I would have to check for you and see exactly what the . so •• MRS . WESTBURY: My information is that it hasn't increased. MR . BANMA N: Since 1967? MRS .

WESTBURY : Yes, that was the information I was given. MR . BANMAN: Mr . Chairman , it didn 't exist , I believe , unt il 1976 or 1977 , MRS . WESTBURY : Well, obviously I have written something down wrongly then. Okay , I thought 1967 seemed a little early . Could I get an answer to that, perhaps , on Monday , Mr. Minister , whether th en it has increased since in fact it was first established?

And I wondered how much, for instanc e, how much assistance would be given to probably our out standing amateur athlete in Manitoba , Monica Goermann , how much level of assist ance would be given to her in one year for her training and travel programs? MR . BANMAN: Yes, we have been through • MR . DESJARDINS: On a point of order . You know, it is unfortunate the member is only one , and I know that she is working very hard . I have no obje ction if the Comm ittee wants to revert , but we are now on the Lott ery and we finished with that , I think was the understandin g .

Now I have no objecti on to help the member at this time , but I do n't want this to be a precedent , because we are going to be in tro uble. MRS . WESTBURY: Well, I apologize if I am out of order . MR . CHAIRMAN : We are on l.(

a) Minister 's Compensat ion . MRS . WESTBURY: I thought we were on Minister 's Salary , and I thought on Minister 's Salary we could discuss anything . I realize I have a lot to learn around this pla ce, but that was my understandin g . MR . CHAIRMAN: Providing , to the Committee , providing it is not repetitiou s. MRS . WESTBURY: We ll, I am sure , Mr . Chairman, that you will tell me if I am being repet itious . MR . CHAIRMAN: Well, we will try . MRS . WESTBURY : • and if I can go back and read the answers ·in Hansard , I wi ll glad to when they catch up with us .

We are several days behind with Han­ sard , so that has no t been possible for me to do until now. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Boniface. MR . DESJAR DINS : Mr . Chairman, I certainly do n't want to be difficu lt , and I would extend all courtesy to the member , but if my memory, if I understood - 1819 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 right , we had agreed to pass everyt hing including anything with Fitness and Ama­ teur Sport under Minister 's Salary , and just stay with the Lotter y , that is why I made the state ment . But I have no objecti on at al l, especially if it is just a quest ion, as long as we can finish the Lottery . So I have no object ion if ••• MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . Does he have a. MR. DOERN: Mr . Chairman, just a brief remark . The total community in­ volvement affil iation in the Lotte ries , I have to echo what has been said by the Member for St .

Boniface, that alth ough I don 't know all the ins and outs of that agreement , I have a great sense of unease about that group being incorporated , and I think that the Minister is going to have to be very vigilant . First of all , I think he was unwise in gett ing into that deal and secondly , I think that now that it is apparent ly approved , that he is going to have to watch that agreement very carefully . MR . BANMAN: Mr . Chairman , I will emphasize again, that in deal ing in this matter , No . 1, it takes you a whole year to sort of try and get a smattering of knowledge . The Member for St .

Boniface has been throu gh the wars of the lot teries from Day One . It is a very explosive thing , the person alit ies are very inten se , and I think the Member for St . Boniface will bear me out . The inter est ing thing is, you get somebody totally green and appoint them to a posit ion , either on a Board of Directors if the Board of Directors of some of the other thin gs that I am respo nsible for would take as intense an interes t, I don 't know if it is the gaming aspec t or what it is ab out it that really causes very intense feelin g with regards to lotterie s.

I don 't minimize the problems that we might have with regards to this particular agreement . I feel that I do have enough control on it right now that if something goes awry, that we can rect ify that •• But in dealing with this problem , I hope it will be a resolution to one that has been in place now for the last four or five years , and under those terms we entered the agreement . MR . DESJARDI NS : Well, Mr .

Chairman , what the Minister is saying is true and I would want to cooperate , as he said I have been through the mill on this, and I certainly wouldn 't want to wish even my worst enemy the same problems that I had . Some of things were quite unfair . But my point , and this is our work here and I think the Minister will recognize here , that I hope the contract works . I know that contract could be terminat ed , it is for a number of years , but what I don't like is that the Minister is start ing on the wrong foot on too many things that are not right .

You do the best you can and you try to be fair, and still there are problems . Now if you start with this kind of cont ract, you are going to have nothing but problems - that is my point . And it is a hell of a lot easier to give than to take away. Remember that. And politicall y , there are certain thin gs that a politic ian can do and can 't do.

Now going back to that point about this, why I didn 't understan d , and I'm not sure , I'm not a lawyer , but it says, "No contract or agreement between a retail representative and any person, firm or corporation act ing on its behalf in the marketing and promotion of tickets" . Well , there is wholesale , there is not only retail. Retail would be the las t guy on the li ne that is selli ng the tickets in the store and things like that , not the middlem an, who is a wholesaler . MR . BANMAN: There are no wholesalers . MR . DESJARDINS : Well, yes , there are who lesalers , TCI is one that is a whol esaler .

Well, anyway , I am not a lawyer, the Minister is not a lawyer, maybe they can have another look at it , and if he assures me that they have this author­ ity , I am satisif ied . But this is ambiguou s, and I am not too sure . MR . CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:3 0 having arrived , I am leaving the Chair for Private Members ' Hour . - 182 0 -

FRIDAY, 28 MARCH, 198 0 SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR . CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (R adisso n) : This Commi ttee will come to ord er. I would direct the honourable memb ers ' attention to Page 84 of the Main Est imates , Department of Natural Resour ces, Item 13. Acquisition/Constr uction of Physical Assets, Resolution 112- -pass. • • The Honourable Member for Ste . Rose . MR .

A.R. (P ete) ADAM : Ye s, be fore we adj ourned for the dinner hour, I asked the Minister to provide me with some information - I am sure that he took down as notice - and I wonder if I could have those comments now if he has any­ thing to report on those questions that I asked in reference to the Grassy Marsh proposal for construction in that area and in Ste . Rose , when that would be pro­ ceeded with , and when does he expect that it will be completed . And als o in regard to the probl ems in the Grandview area , I bel ieve it is, in regard to town water sup plies, dams flooding out neighbouring farms . MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON . BRIAN RANSOM ( Souris-Kil larney ) : Mr . Chairman , I would be happy to respond to those questions . First of all , I would like to answer a question that the Honourable Member for Rupertsland asked a couple of days ago , when he inquired as to the percentage that the provincial grant covered out of the operating expenses for the International Peace Garden. The grant amounts to 12.83 percent of the project ed operating expenditur es . In response to the Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose , I noticed this morning that I think he has been listening to the Member for Inkst er, because he slipped in one of those littl e debat ing points this morning , that if al lowed to go unchallen ged , Mr . Chairman , it might give the impression that something was dif ferent than it actually was. He talked about further work on flood protection at Ste. Rose , and I just want to make it understood that this is not further work on the part of the governm ent , this is the first work on the part of the gove rnment , because pre­ vious ly , Mr .

Chairman, when the town had requested the province to undertake flood protection works for St e. Rose , they were turned down by the gove rnment of which the Honourable Member for St e. Rose was a memb er. So the town was able to under­ take on their own some expenditur es, which fortunately was in place and was able to prevent the town from sufffering what would otherwise have been very extensive damage this past spring , a year ago . So I ju st wish to make that cl ear for the record , Mr . Chairman. As to the when the work will be completed , I am not certain of that .

There is an engineering study which is just now being comple ted . We will be having dis­ cussi ons shortly with the Turt le River Conservation District to dis cuss the cost­ -sharing formula which I outlined to the Committee this morning . I would hope that this pro ject would be able to proceed rather quickly and that a substantial amount of work could be done this summe r, because St e. Rose has a peculiar situa­ tion in that they live with the threat of a flood occ urring , not only in the springt ime , but whenever there is an excessively heavy rainfall in the Riding Moun tain.

In the fall of 1975 th e town suff ered extensively from floodin g and these people have waited for some time for protection and we hope to be able to get on with it . As far as the Big Grass Marsh and the Whitemud River Pro ject is concerned , Mr. Chairman, that study was done on behalf of the Conserv ation Distric t, the Whitemud Conservation Distric t. The report was made to the Conservation District and we will be awaiting some ulti mate recommendation from the Distri ct .

We know that there is a lot of local concern about the recommendat ion , and that there is by no means fu.:l support for it , but in recognizing the authority that the Conservat ion Distric t has , we must await their final recommendat ion . The question was also raised about the Grandview Dam, the flooding situation that has taken place there , Mr . Chairman. --( Interjec tion) -- Yes, the Honourable Member for Inkster is no doubt an expert on the Grandview Dam situat ion. There - 182 1 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 have been a couple of problems there over the years . One was a quest ion of flood­ ing and the responsibilit y for it , and that situation went to the Supreme Court , as the Honourable Member for Inkster points out . The problem with the flood ing went to the Supreme Court , and that much is sett led , Mr. Chairman. The problem with the operation of the dam is one that was simply a matter of whether or not the town was conforming with the terms of their licence as issued by the Water Resources Branch, and we belie ve that the terms of that licence will be con formed with.

Then , as I mentioned earl ier, it previously had been the intention to build a dam to provide a water supply for Grand view , and an agreement had been entered into to do that , but as we got into the engineering detai ls, it became evident that that type of dam was not going to be a viable means of providing a water supply , and some rather extensive engineering studies had to be done to find an alte rnative .

It has been deter mined that a reservoir is the best altern ative , that some of that reservoir will have to be constructed on what is now the highway right-o f-way and the construction will therefore have to await the realignment of the highway, the construction of the new highway bridge which is planned there . We hope to be able to get both those pieces of construction under way without too much delay , but it 's not going to happen this year. I believe , Mr . Chairman, that that should adequately answer the questions the honourable member placed . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St e. Rose . MR .

ADAM : Thank you very mu ch. I thank the Minister for his reply . My understandin g on the problem at Grandview, that for many many years the engineer­ ing staff had maintained that it wasn 't the level of the water above the dam that was really causing the problems , and that was the reason why the problem was never addres sed , because of the fact that the engineering staff maintained that that wasn 't the cause of the water flood ing , but in fact when the water was lowered , for whatever reason , that the lands did drain satisf actorily .

Well I would ask the Minister if he could correct me on that if I'm wrong , and also , if he could advise me of the cos t of the study of the Grass River project and if there are any plans for modification or cutt ing down of that original proposal , which had all the farmers living in the proximity of the Grassy Marsh area quite upset about the extent of this proj ect , the original plans for this project. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone . MR . JAMES R. FERGUSO N: Thank you , Mr. Chairman.

As those that have been involved with the proposed program in the Whitemud watershed are aware, some of those that maybe should have been involved and aren 't aware of , was that the original program involved an expenditure of about $23 milli on. There were three meetings held, and at these meetings it was very apparent that the general popu­ lace were not in favour of the proposals that were offer ed . One was the acquisi ­ tion of about 50,000 acres of prime farm land and doing away with community pasture , et c. , etc .

It was quite evident that there was a very str ong feeli ng that the program was a li ttle too rich, and for the edification of the Member for St e. Rose , it 's pretty hard to drive anythin g throu gh his head - but in any event , there was another meet ing he ld , another proposal advanced , and this one specifically stated that there could be some relief off ered from the Big Grass Marsh by putting a ditch across north of Woodside to the lake , controlling the flow that way. So con sequent ly , Mr .

Chairman, I think that there is an understandin g at least , or there has been an undertaking by the present government to at least review the situations that existed . I always admire my honourable friends across the way when they come forward so strongly with their programs , and in eight years of gove rnment , I don't think that there was one major proposal made on flood relief in the province of Manitoba . If there was, I would like to know where it was, as compared to the previous eight years under the Tory gove rnment .

As, of course , being good responsible peopl e, being people that do really have the benefits for the people of Manitoba foremost in their min ds, our government has started out , - 1822 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 and the program advanced by the Minister is quite indicative of what we intend to do . We are reviewing a proposal with the Whitemud watershed , as I stat ed , No . 1, the first proposal was too rich; No . 2, we are quite prepared to go ahead with the proposal that is acceptable to the people of the area at a cos t that possibly the taxpayers of Manitoba can aff ord , which is another indication that our people do not rush in, helt er-skelter , throwing money all over the place. They expect to get benfits for the people and protection for the people .

I am in a posi tion, my constituent s are , of probably being in one of the worst flood-prone areas that there are in Manitoba , includ ing the Red River Valley . I'm quite aware of that, and of course my honourable friend from St e. Rose has a portion of his consti tuency als o involved in that area. But I do feel that the proposal that I received from the Whitemud watershed , it 's dated the ll th of March, should receive consideration and probably will be acted upon.

And if it happens that we can go ahead with this particular program, then possibly we can go ahead with some of the other benefit s, the environmental benefits that were included in the first program that were ju st unacceptable to the residents of the area and they 're unacceptable because of the cost-ratio on them. So I would think, Mr . Chairman, with this thought in mind , that the proposal of cuttin g the Whitemud south of Gladstone right up through the Rat Creek into the marsh, then out , would be No . 1 priority . I'm quite aware of the fact that it is a very expensive undertakin g .

We are also aware that it could be Step One in a program that would include probably the other benefits as funds become available and as the situation dictated . I would like to point out at this ti me , Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Minis ter, that this thing has been reviewed , meetings have been held on it, it was unacceptable.

I think the present proposal i s within the realm of possibili ty and it would be one way of getting the action started , and with the accelerating value of farmland and the uncertainty that many of my constituents have had due to the flood ing every spring , I think that I would recommend to the Minister very strongly that some action do start that is sensib le , sane , and within the realm of the taxpayers and within the grasp of the people that are involved . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste . Rose . MR . ADAM : Mr . Chairman, thank you very much.

It is interesting to hear the Member for Gladst one pay so many compl imentary remarks on the program for the province of Manitoba on drainage , the overhaul program, and the membe r, the great Member for Roblin, who doesn 't look after his own problems in Gran dview. But , Chairman, we have another evidence here of the memb ers of the government , good Conserv ativ es, free enterp risers , lauding the Socialist programs , people doing thin gs col lectively for the bett erment of all citiz ens of our province. But again, Mr.

Chairman, we see the same thing happening in this department as we saw in the Department of Highway s. Over the dinner hour , Mr . Chairman, I'm pleased whoever gets drainage , and I'm ple ased that Carman will maybe get some help and St e. Rose will get some help and the little that goes into Lac du Bonnet gets help . I'm pleased with thi s. But , Mr . Chairman, we see the same thin g again as we saw in Highways. The first guys at the trough are Conserv ativ es. They 're always the first at the public trough when it comes to Socialist programs . Mr .

Chairman, I took time during the dinner hour , just roughly , and the Min­ ister of Gove rnment Services was lauding this great gove rnment with all the pro­ grams and how it was going to be done . Moving away from the Highways Program and sharing more . In other words, admittin g what happened in the Highways Depart­ ment , and now they were going to share a littl e more equitably in the drainage . Mr. Chairman , I checked roughly over the dinner hour , I didn't have much time , but I found about 31 projects to be undertake n.

I find that of these 31 projects, there 's going to be 25 pro jects in constituencies represented by Conservatives --( Interje ction )- - and six out of 31 programs in constituencies represented by the New Democratic Party , Mr . Chairman. Let 's look at the dol lar values. We find that of the total doll ars to be expended - and I'm just using rough figures because we went fast over the dinner hour to come with up - but I find that there is going to be $3 , 765 ,000 will be all ocated to Conservative constituen cies, and - 1823 -

FRIDAY , 28 MARCH , 1980 $582 ,000 for NDP constitu encies . So again we have another demon strat ion , a call ous attitude of this government usin g public funds for politcal purposes. So I cond emned the Minister of Highways on his program as an abuse of his offi ce, and I also accuse the Minister responsible for drainage in this province of abusin g his office in the same manner. MR . CHAIRMAN : The Minister of Government Services. HON . HARRY J. ENNS (L akeside ): Mr.

Chairman, it is being said once or twice too often, and we are not doin g the public that all of us are here to serve a favour by al lowing it to go by without at least some suggestion and some appre­ ciation of the simple fact of the matter , that when we are dealing with roads and we are dealin g with drainage pro jects, when we are agricultural project s, yes , because the good people of rural Manitoba in a massive majority way have decided to vote for those people that they know represent their inter ests , that of course those figures will represent what the Honourable Member for St e.

Rose is trying to represent . But what is totall y wrong , Mr . Chairman , is for his suggestion that there is any callousness o