Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session Number 20 ======= =========~=~-=========== =~- - VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, March 6, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL

March 6, 1973 The J!ousc met L\t.3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the ChAir. . Tape No. 473 "fR. SPEAKER: -----· nr_der please. As moRt honournble members are NM - 1 aware I am sure, this is Education Week and each day this week I think we should have groups from various schools. Today in the galleries we have a group of thirty-six grade Vl students from the Eugene Vaters Elementary School here in St. John's, with their teachers Mr. Raymond Stringer and Mr. Clayton Rice. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you to the galleries and trust that, your visit here is most informative.

PRF.SENTING PETITIONS: - ---- ~- SPEAKER: The honourable ?f:!.nstei of Municipal A[fairs nnd llousinr,. MR • COLL INS : '.'-fr. Speaker, I undertook yesterdny in response to some questions from honourable members opposite that I would table the report of the Royal Commission into the Blackhead Road Urban Renewal Scheme. One copy which I will table now and copies are available in my office in the department, Anyone who wants to get a copy can get it, or we can get them brought up if the honourable members wish. AN HON. MEMBER: Innudible. MR..:.........@.LLINS: Well this is all I have at the present time, Mr.

Speaker, but I will arranr,c to hnve the others brour,ht up th:ls aft(•rnoon so that the honourable p,entlemen w:1.11 not have to work so hard to obtain it. :'-1R. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, arisinp, out of that if I may: Is that the full r~port of the Kostaszek Report? ''fR. COLL INS : If the honourable Leader of the Opposition would peTmit me, that :I" the ,mmmAry of the report. All of these various voluml'fi, tlwre nre four or ff.ve of tht>m are now he fore 1-1'13

March 6, 1973 Tape No, 474 NM - 1 MR. cm.UN~: the printers and just as soon as they are ready w~ wlll prenPnt them. ~-__ RO!~P:_1:_S_:_ \·le have thr. miniRtcr'e aseurance ,there nre five volumes .that the five volumes will be tabled when they are printed. im. COLLINS: I think four or five, several copies. MR. ROBERTS: Well I understand there are five. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. John's South. ~- WELLS: On behalf of the honourable member for St. John's ------- North.who is not present, Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition from thirty-five residents of St. Phillips.in the District of St.

John's North. The prayer of the petition reads: We the undersigned residents of St. Phillips petition for a water system connected to the individual homes or alternatively for a community well. The water system in our area is polluted and unfit for human consumption. In fact the artesian well at the school is also polluted. Residents have had to obtain drinking water from St. John's at great trouble . . and expense. We would appreciate your giving this matter serious and prompt attention." ~r.

Speaker, I think,as we all know and as we certainly h<'ar :In this House from time to time in the form of petitions,that a r,reat many areas in Newfoundland are in need of proper drinkinP, water, the fact,that muc:h of the drinking water in Newfoundland and smnll places particularly is polluted, 1s a mnttcr of y,rave seriousnens and sometimes I think,as a matter of fact, that the demand for r,ood,clean potable water probahly exceedR the demand even for roads in some parts of Newfoundland. In any event, Mr.

Speaker, I present this petition and of course support it and would ask that it be referred to the appropriate departmPnt.

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 474 NM - 2 MR. SPF.AKER: The honourable the member for Hell Island. MR. NEARY: I rise to support this petition presented on behalf of the member for St. John's North on behalf of thirty-five residents of St. Phillips who are requesting an artesian well I assume, Mr. Speaker, that is what the prayer of the petition as~s for. I think it is a very reasonable request, Sir.

If the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing whom I figure· is DOW responsible for artesian wells, if the minister sees fit to grant the prayer of this petition, Sir, I hope that the minister will not make the same mistake that has been made in the past with these artesian wells that the well will have water and that it wHl be completed and instead of putting . just an ordinary hand pump there, that the minister will see to it that an electric pump is put in or that a submergible pump is installed in the hole and that a proper house is put over the hole to protect the pump and the artesian well and that if people want to run a line from that drill hole eventually they put water - AN HON.

MEMBER: Innudible. ------- MR. NEARY: Well it has been done, Mr. Speaker. We have done it on Bell Island, that they run the water line right into their own home and have the water in instead of having to ~o down and carry it in buckets. I think we should try to get awny from that now, it is a thing of the past. I do have more than just a pnsninr. in tr.rest in St. Phillips, Mr. Speaker, with redistribution I have my eye on St. Phillips. lf this present administration does not give St. Phillips the artesian well that they are asking for, well we will see to it that the next administration gives it to them.

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 474 NM - 3 MR. F. ROWE : Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of sixty-six residents of Bartletts Harbour in St. Barbe North. The prayer of the petition is that they have their water line completed so that they can get water to their homes. Sir, the water line in Bartlett's Harbour was started by the Department of Community and Social Development during the term of office of the previous administration and, Sir, last year this particular water line or construction of that project was brought to a halt.

I might point out that the same thing holds true for about fifteen other communities in St. Barbe North. Hundreds of people in about fifteen communities were living in anticipation of having a water line to their homes within a year or two. Sir, many,many people purchnsed toilets Rnd sinks and other plumbinp, utensils and they lrnve hnd these utensi1 e installed in their homes and, Sir, nt the present time they serve only as ornaments And ornaments, Str, that many of these people can ill-afford at the present t:fmC'.

Sir, I am deeply disappointed that the present administration cancelled the work on these water lines without providing an alternative service to these people, I give this petition my fullest support and I ask that this petition be plnced on the table of the llouse and referred to the department to which it relates. MIL srmrnR: I support th1e pC'tit1on just prnsent~d on behalf of the people• of this community of St. Barbe North. Some reference was made to tlw fact that this adminiotrntion had stopped many of the projcct11 that hnd been ,;tarted in this diRtrict by the previous adminj_stration. 14'16

March 6, 1973 'l'ape No. 4 74 NH - 4 MR. SENIOR·: This, Sir, is partly correct. The primary reason for this is that we did a detailed study of the situation in St.

Barbe North,in our Department of Conununity and Social Development, last year, and we found in fact that out of approximately $175,000 I believe was spent in that district, most of it during the election campaign in 1971, many of these projects were started without any sense of priorities or planning, without any idea as to where these projects would or could be completed and in fact, Sir, most of the money that was spent in that particular district, and I might add there was more money spent in the District of St. Barbe North than in any other provincial district in the province in that particular year.

Our investigation shewed that most of the money was wasted and in fact projects,where probably $20,000 had been spent on them, would take probably another $75,000 to complete. After investigating this matter,we found that it just was not feasible to go ahead and complete some of the projects which had been started. I support the petition, I hope that when work commences again in this district,on these projects; that the proper planning will be done and will be done in a more sane and sensible manner than it was by the previous administration. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, 1.n speaking in support of the petition, let me just say three things. First of all, Sir, the prayer of the petition is one which should commend itself to and command the support of every member of this !louse. Secondly, I rarely heard a statement quite as stupid as the one just made by the gentleman from Grand Falls, what he 1417

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 474 NM .. 5 MR. RORF.RTS: said that priorities and planning - Mr. Speaker, when it comes to a matter as important as water - the gentleman from St. John's South gave it as his opinion and I think it has much merit and much strength, that the matter of a supply of water to somebody who has not got it. is pe2haps the most crucial. thing of all. It is far more crucial than a road, it is at least as important as food itself, because without water we cannot live. If people do not have water,anywhere in this province, Sir, that is a priority. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, that is typical of the gentleman from Grand Falls, typical, just typical 9 that is maybe the reason he was let out of the Cabinet •. Mr. Speaker, if the prayer of this petition is that these people hnvc water, or wish drinkable water, they should have wnter. I do not think the ~entleman from Grand Falls is sayinr, they should not. I would say that anywhere in' this province where people do not have an adequate water supply, that should be the prfodty.

As my friend from White Bay South said lni;t year on the estimat<'s, if these things are done durinr, <'lection ycnr, hts cry and my cry is "let un have an election evrry yC'.or,if thnt will r,r.t people water." So tlirn• nre ,1 lot of requestE. upon the public treasury of this provfnc-c, Mr. Spenker, that can wait. The matter of whethr.r a rond iH pnvr.d or not pnved 1~ not one wl1Jch muat be resolved to<lny. It cnn wnit. It is posnihle to haven d~~rce of priority and that some thin gr; may he done U.rRt, but Mr. Speaker, to ask people to wait for water is to nsk too much of tbem. 14 118

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 474 NM - 6 MR. RORERTS: I submtt, Rir, that the attitude of thP administration is not. that one should have priorities on water, they are wrong. The whole question of water, all over this province,and it will cost millions, millions of dollars .because the needs of Bartletts Harbour are relatively small in a dollar sense. Many of our larger communities have even greater needs. There is not a member in this HouRe, Mr. Speaker, who does not have in his district one or more communities that need millions of dollars for water supplies. But they should have pr:f.ority.

We cannot debate at this point what happened in the past, Wcshall when it is appropriate,if the honourable gentleman wish. Rut I did want to make that point, Sir, I think it is an important one. I do not want to let it go unnoticed,with talk of priorities in the field of water. The need for water is a priority, Sir. There can be no greater priority than that. MR. SP~AKER: The honourable the Premier. MR. MOORCS: I want to speak in support of this petition as well but not as it has broadened to the degree that the honourable the Leader of the Opposition has broadened it now. I would like to say that 1449

March 6, 1973 Tape 475 PK - 1 of course water and sewera~e and all the services that go into comm.unities that do not have them or need to p,o in are of R priority nature, But you know you cnn talk about resource development beinP, a priority and a ireat many other thinr,s. All I say, Sir, there are a great many times in this House when such a suhject as this comes up when it would seem that the water situation is going to be solved by hot air. I sug~est, Sir, we leave it to the people who are best able to do it, MR. W, N. ROWE: Mr, Speaker, that is the contribution from the leader of the province.

MR, ROBERTS: It is an off day today. MR. ROWE , W,N, _ It is an off day today, we are likely to see something happening. But I do not intend to get into a debate, Debate is not allowed on presentation of petitions. But I should say so~ething, Mr. Speaker, concerninf'. this particular petition wh:lch I support wholeheartedly since I did have the honour to be the Minister of Community and Social Development which wns responsible for the p:rnt thre_e or four years for trying to get water systems into unincorporated communities around the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador.

First of all let me reiterate what I said durin~ the all-night session of the last sitting of this Fouse when the honourable then Minister of Communfty and Social Development started to say that a lot of these thinr:s wen• done durinr, the election campaign of 1971. Mr, Speaker, let me r~itcrate what I said then.

If it means that the 200 or 300 communities which we-re thrn nncl some of wh:1 ch are now w:I thout thr has:1.c necess:1.ties of life nnmcly, vater, I wish there were nn rlect:lon camp11ir,n every Rix monthH :lm,tead of every three, four or f:l.vc yt'nrs. lit' :Is absolutely TiCht. vn1c-n I was min:! stcr of that department I found thnt I wnii nble to get from thl' r,overnment nnd from Trea!mry Roa rd about $100,000 a year or so for un:lncorporated commun1tjes' water syste~.

As an election approached I found th;it puhl:lc funds loosen up somE'what in this regard and I took compl.P.te advantage of the situatjon as I would do in the future, r,iven the 1150

March 6, 1973 Tape 475 PK - 2 same opportunity. I took complete advantage to iet more and more money from treasury board and the ~overnment to try and get water systems into unincorporated communities. I will take whatever blame or whatever credit is due me on that account, Mr. Speaker. The second point that T would like to make, Mr. Speaker, without getting into the realm of debate. relates to the honourable ex-minister's statement that it was done without planning or supervision and th1s sort of thinp,. Well I would just like to point out to the honourable memher, Mr.

Speaker, that all of these sys~ems were under the overall supervision of Mr Wallace Maynard who wo& a field worker in the area at that time and who subsequently became the 'lory candidate in the area and seemed to have the support of the P.C. Party at that time. So if any problems with rcr,ard to supervision are evident, I suggestion the honourable r,cntlc-mnn p,o to his own would-he col.lenp,ue who fortunately was not f!Uccessful in r,ett1nr, into this House.

The third thinr,, Sir, which I would like to say hefore sitting clown is that the honourable ex-minhter is not correct when he pivci; the inference or the impression that the water systems in that district were shutdown because there was inadequate .plannin~ ,i_md the impression seemed to be left that in other parts of the province where there was some planninp. they were left to go ahead.

I found, Sir, when I got in opposition and started to check with the then Department of Community and Social Development,that department put a kihosh, a moratorium on all these water systems all over the province, I found jt jmpossihle to rct a measly $1,000 in one of my communities, l'o1J11rcls Point, for n wnter system. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPF.AKER· Order, please! MR. ?-½?-~JIAL_~ I beHeve the object of the game, Mr. Speaker, is to speak· to the petition and not t:nter int.o a full dehntc upon the administration or the r,ovemment itself, either this ROVernment or the past 1451

March 6, 1973 Tape 475 PK - 3 government. Mr. ~peaker, Your Honour need not even rule on it. Allow me to say that with these few non-controversial remarks that I support this petition wholeheartedly and I hope we will have an opportunity to debate this whole problem at length when the main estimates are broup;ht before the House, MR. COLI.INS: Mr. Speaker, before we ~et off thiR particular subject, there are a lot of petitions coming in to this honourable }louse daily concern1nr. water and sewera~e systems, water particularly.

You know it strikes me as being rather peculiar that we find the honourable member for White Bay South and the honourable Leader of the Opposition,who have never had to go out and dig a hole in the street or dig a hole in the ground to try and come up with a drop of water, I have experienced it I know what we are talking about. AN HON. 1-fEMBER: Tell us all about it. MR. COLT.INS: I know exactly what I am talking about.

I would like to he able to provide all the monies that are necessary to provide water for all the pPople of Newfoundland, Those people oppoRite know full well that iR practically impos111hle. 'Pe uill do our be11t and we will do a lot of work thiR cominr. ycnr,please goodness,to provide,as the Leader of the Oppos1tion said, a very important service. Pe cannot live by bread alone Mayhc we need 1,1ater with it, I am sure we do. You know we must accept the facts of life. 1 had an estimate done a while ago,1n the incorporatP.d communit1.es of Newfoundland, we were lookinE at about $700 mil.lions.

If we look at the unincorporated communities we are possibly lookfnr. nt nnothcr $70n million or $HOO million and that is a fi.r.ure I would Rt1r,r,cr:;t, Mr. SpC'ak<"r, thnt we cannot come up wHh ovcrnf.r.ht. But hopc-ful ly wC> c11n c-ont.1n11P to pro~rl'RS and over n pP.rfod of yP.arEI prov:ldc r.u1tnhl" nnrl o:,.fp rlr1nldnr, wntc>r for ,111 of thr peoplr. 1452

March 6, 1973 Tape 475 PK - 4 HR. P. S. THOMS: !-fr. Speaker, I would just like to sav a few words in support of this petition presented on behalf of my colleague for the District of St. Barhe North, First of all I am in support of this petition. I believe that it is absolutely necessary for this government or the one that will follow it or the one to come in a couple of years time in . this province provide water for every community within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Now I disap,ree with the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs when he said the total cost of doing this would he something like $700 million. I believe that if he were to inspect these figures a little closely he shall possibly find that it is only around $200 million and that certainly is not outside of our reach. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have heard people like this laugh before but then the next day they changed their m:f.nds. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is no need for any community in this province to be looking into the future without any possibility of receiving these much-needed services.

I sincerely hope and pray that the minister in his wisdom will look at this situation more closely and will give these communities· some encouragement that they may within a short period of time receive this much needed service of a good water supply. ?-IR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, may I speak briefly in support of the petition that was presented by the honourable member for St. Barhe North.

This particulnr subject of wa tl~r 1md sewerage, I think more in particular wntcr, in a numher of c.ommunith~R h.'l.s come up and the honourable Minister of Munid.pnl Affnirs and llouni.nP, seems to 11,et into a panic ever), time this particular subject comeg up. I think one of the r,reat difficulties that we are havinp, and why I speak in support of this pet:ftion is the fact that we hear so little from the unincorporated towns

whereas the incorporated towns in this province do p,et the pr:fority,and the m1nister has not yet set his priority strai~ht hccrnirH• hr. iR not hearinr, from the unincorporated commun:f.ties, So I sugp,est,

March 6, 1973 Tape 475 PK - 5 bec~un• he in not hearinp from the un1ncorporated communities. t su,~eat, Mr, Speaker, that the same priority should be given to the unincorporated communities.if he get representation from them,as is given the incorporated communities. NOTICE OF MOTION MR. W. MAR_5HAL~ Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the followin~ bill, "An Act Respecting A Public Service Connnission For The Province." ANSWF.RS TO OUF.STJONS HON. F. n .. MOORF.S_: _(PRF.MIF.R): Mr. Speaker, the answer to Q\\estion No. l 07, (

R) F:xccutive nflsfntant to thP. Minister of Commun1 ty and Social neveloflTTIPnt, (h) $12,000, (c) $2,000, (

d) Normal dutirs required as exccut1ve ass1~tant, (

e) To the minister, (

f) Yee, public buildinp, in Grand Falls, office also available on the fifth floor of Confederation Buildinr,, and (

g) No. HON. A. J. IHJRPHY (MINISTER OF SOCIAL ASSISTANCE) : Mr. Speaker, I have a number of answers to questions; Nos. (2), (3), (4), (5), (9),

March 2, 1973, Tape 476, Pare l -- apb ten, eleven, twelve, fourteen, fifteen, scventr<-n, ri~htcrn, ninrtrrn, twenty, all askrd by the honourable memhl"r for Jlell lslnncl, T would like to table these. AN HON. ME?-'llER: (Inaudible-) ?-'R. MJRPHY: No, I am going to throw them in the furnace. Do not be so stupid. MR, SPEAKER: Order please! The honourable member for Fortune Bay. H0N •. _!LR. V. EARLE (NINI STER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND SF.RVICE~l.:_ I ask leave to table the answer to ouestion number (105),asked by the honourable member for Fo~o,on the Order Paper of March 5.

In so doinp,, I was a bit puzzled as to knowinr, how to answer the question because j_t was directed to me as Minister of Public Worke,in connection with my travelling expenses. I have had none Rince becoming ~finietf'r of Public Works but took the courtesy of answerinr, him as minister of previous drpartments. HON. DR. A.T.POWE(MINISTER OF HEALTH): I would like to table the answer to questions of the Leader of the Opposj_tj_on; numbers (82), (84), (86) and (89) ,answered and tabled for the henefit of the House. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education: HON._ G.R.OTTENI-IEHffiR (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the nnswcr to question number (35) appenrinr on the Order Par,er of February 23 nnd nsJ,ed by the honourable mrmher for St. Barbe North. MR • SPEAKER i The honourable. Minister of recrention and Rehabilitation: · HON. J .C: .ROUSSEAU (t-tinister of Recreation and Rehabilitation): The answer to question (111) is yes, to a guarantee of a loan not exceeding $100,000, together with interest at the prevailinp, bank rate.

The lonn is to be paid off over a period of t~n ycnrs tor,ethc-r with a ~uarantPC! of ninc-ty-,?iitht pc-rcent occupancy. The- nnr<wr·r to (l 12) ie no, to (113) no, to (ll/1) yc•11 - part on,• nnd pnrl two, n pu11rnnlcr of ninety-cir.ht percent occupancy nnd approvnl 1 n princ1 pl,. of nn 1455

March 6, 1973, T.11pt'! 4 76, Pngf' 2 --· apb institution with accommodation for between e:f.r,hty and ei~hty-five patif"ntA, auh1ect to the ~pproval of the plAn by the miniAter. nimtmr. n_y_ TII! ... n.A_Y_:, Mk. Sl'l•'.AKEH: 1'ht., honourahle thiP. l,eader of the OyipoRition: HON. E.M.ROHF.RTS: A ouestion for the Minister of Health. Would he inform the House and the people of Newfoundland whether in fact the prornt:fon ar,reements between the r,nvernment and the Newfoundland P-ledical Association have been ended,as has been reported on at least one radio station? _E_~-- :R._0!7E :_ Mr.

Speaker, a statement is now being prepared regarding the nep.otiations which have taken place between the Newfoundland M'ed:fc.11 Association and the Medicare Commission, this includes a statement rer,ardinp, a chanp,e in proration. ~- ROBERTS: Could the minister tell us when we may expect the statement? Will he tell us when the change became effective if in fact it is in effect already? That will do for a start. DR. ROWE: The statement will be presented tomorrow. As far as the change is concerned, the change in the type of proration will be effective from January 1973. MR.

ROBERTS: In other words, :ft is retroactive, is that the word, or has it been :fn effect since January? DR. ROWE: The chanr,e in type of proration will be retroactive. ?-ffi. F .B. ROHE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honurablc Hinister of Highways. I wonder if he has made any progress w:fth respect to gettinp, some additional snow-clearing equipment into the District of St. Barbe North, since the children are losing a great deal of school time up there. The people are now start1nr, to melt snow for the purpose of water.

They cannot r,C't fuel oj 1 to th,>ir homc-s and, Sir, there :1 s what I would consider n ~tntC' of c-mPrrency in the- Tifstrict of St. Barbe North nt the present l imr-. Mr. Sp,•nh·r, J wJll 1,p r,lml to r.tve thP hnnournhlc mc-mbc-r 11 :j G

March 6, 1973, Tape 476, Paie 3 -- apb for St. Barbe North the followinp, infonnation; You do not want a weather report today or •n~thing like that. AN_EON. ME}q3ER: The weather is right. DR.l'._~RRELL...:_ The weather is very bad up there. Right now, actually we sent into St. Barbe North, into the Northern Peninsula,in the last couple of days, three snowblowers, one loader from Clarenville and one loader from St. John's, all the available equipment we had available at this time. At the moment I would like to inform the ho~ourable Leader of the Opposition, thnt in the St. Anthony Area all ten plows are working.

In the Cook's Harbour Area we have five plows - AN HON. MEMBER: --·---'- --- Ten plows? DR. FARR]':_I.L~ Ten plows. I AN HON. MEMBER:_ That is the most that was ever down there. ~~_!lO~RTS: (Inaudible) DR. FARRELL: Yes, well look, we are doinr, the best we can, Sir, l am not trying to give you an answer, you know, in between readinr, the paper. I am just trying to ~ive you an answer. We are doing the utmost we can with the facilities we have, Sir, under the conditions and the fact that people are people and operators are operators and human beings.

In the Cook's Harbour Area we have five plows, we have a couple of dozera broken down there. We have eleven plows in thr St. Barbe Area two of which are broken down. We hnvr moved fn,as I said, three blowers and two loaders since the question was asked. AN HON • . l'-fr.!IBER: (Inaudible) DR~__F._~~ELL: No, excuse me please! MR.__F_:._B.ROWE: Where are those blowers being sent, into the District of St. Barbe? DR. FARRELL: -··------ - They have all been moved into the Northern Peninsula Area we arc tal~inp, about ri~ht now, five pieces of equipment. ,M.lt •..

F'_.,».:!:.''_wJ<.:_ You cannot tell. 1111, whnt· p11rt? !>~-- _F!,!{!!J'J-J,_:_ Not 11pec1ffcally 1457

March 6, 1973, Tape 476, Page 4 -- apb MR, F.H.ROWE: There are two hundred miles of Northern Peninsula. DP.. FAJ!RELL: Yes, I know, I come from the West Coast. I know a --- -----·· little bit of the situation there, but I would like to inform you that we are doinr, everything in our power. I am sure that you would agree that there is a rather difficult situation out there at this time. I have gone over this in the days past and I assure the honourable Leader of the Opposition that we are doing our best, everything possible to improve the conditions. 1-IR. ROBERTS: ~r.

Speaker, a supplementary question, because I think those of us who represent those constituencies are aware of the fact that the minister is taking consid .erable pains• I said that six and a-half dayR :Is all the school that the children have had - the buses at J, 'Anse au f-'eadows are bei.nr, duJ? out ae of twl'nty minutee ar,o. In v:lew of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, t'1at the men who operate these mach:lnc-s have been working absolutely incredibly ]onr, hours, e:l.r,hteen - twenty hours at a stretch ,for weeks on end, has the minister r.tade any arranp,ements or :l.s he contemplating making any to relieve the~e men and to provide the additional help that will be needed, because we Rtill have two or three months of snow aht>ad of us ,1 n all probnbili ty, :l.n Northern Newfoundland. DR. FARRF.T.L: ·------ -·- --- I cnn Ray thnt we are lookinr, at every possible means of allrv:lnt:lnn the con<lit:lonA in these areas, R:lr.

We arc hav:lnR,I a~rec w:lth tl1c honournhle Lender of the Opposition, the worst period of snow in this pnrt:1 cul ar area in Lnbrador South and ,,n the Northern Pcninsuln. We will be doin~ everything that :Is possible, However, at this moment 1t iR a h:lt enrly to move more eriuipmPnt from the F.nat Coast in case we r.r.t a sudden storm, or in the Central NewfouncUand Area, We have to watch thoRe particular areas for weather at this time, hut we are looldnr at the whole situation. f-'R. F.B.RnWE: ·---~ -- ------ A supnlementary riuei;tion.

I hate to be so persistent, Sir, hut I do have to answer phone calls and ;,riuiries that arc made of me by the con s tituents, · What I would 1:1.lrc:> to hc>DT. from the mint~ter is exnctly where these five pieces of mDchfncry ~re be:ln~ sent, lw.cnuHr lht> prohl<>ms on the r.rl'l'lt Northern Pr.nfnRula nrc 11 :j 8

March 6, 1973, Tape 476, Page 5 -- apb localized in an area between Anchor Point and Eddies Cove. This is where the basic problem lies at the present time and this is what cuts off the people from the hospital. DR, FARRELL: In answer to the honourable member for St. Barbe --------- ·- North, every piece of equiP111ent we have is on the road.

I do not know at any given moment where that part1cular piece of equi~ment is, but certainly every piece of equipment that is in workin~ order, which most of them are at the present time, because we mad€' it a policy to send our better equipment to these more isolated areas in case of breakdowns. Every bit of equipment available at this moment is working on the roads, Where they are at this exact moment in time, I do not know. Naturally they could be in any particular area, five miles from here. ten miles there - there is no way of knowin~ from moment to moment.

At three o'clock I can tell you because I keep a very close watch on this, For instance, if you wnnt a weather report l will ii:ive it to you again. I am tellinR where the machinery is, but at this particular moment I do not know where the particular pieces of machinery are. They are there, the numbers that I have just given. We have sent five pieces of equipment, all we could spare,into district four which is that area. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary 11uestion: The honourable minister stated publicly the other day that the worst is yet to come. le the honourable minister taking any steps to see that the flooding that he expects to take place on the Great Northern Peninsula will not take place and that adequate staff and c11u:fpment are there to take care of the situation. Actually. I am praying hard. you know, that this situation will not occur. I am sorry for being so facetious, Sir, but who can ••• MR. NEA~Y AND ?KR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) ~S_P_E~ Order please! DR. _FARRELL: Which one? No, I did not mean that, I apologize for 1459

MARCH 6, 1973, Tape 476, Page 6 -- apb bein~ facetiouR, This is a very serious situation but ~he point ia, who knows at this i,articular time? Mayhe we will bavr. a very pleasant srrinr, and everythi~ will .~radually move out. I am worried quite a bit about the situation and when those cottdftions arise we will do everything in our power to alleviat~ them. MR., NEARY: (Inaudible} MR. SPEAKER: Order please! ~OODW_!.RD: Mr. Speaker, i.n view of tha fact that the honourable membe.r for Labrador South is not in his seat today, I would like to direct il question to the honourable ~inister of Highways.

In view of the fact tha·t there arE> a number of roads in Labrador, especially in the Churchill Falls ArE'n .wher ·e 1'160

March 6, 1973 Tape no. 477 Page 1 MRW The roads are kept clear of snow at all times. The woods roads in the Goose Bay Area and the road from Happy Valley to Northwest River, a distance of some thirty miles, are kept open at all times and free of snow. Why are we having such difficulty and causing severe hardship to the residents of Labrador South? HON. DR. T. C. FARREI.L(Minister of Highways): That is very obvious, I should say,to the hon. member for Labrador North, becauRe the conditions of the roads are such that they are unbelievable. I do not think there is anybody to blame for these facts.

I think the honourable member knows the Labrador Area much better than I do. I already made a statement that I intend to go there with the hon. member for Labrador South. We have been negotiating during the past week as to the best. means of looking after that area. We are still in the process of doing so. I think that question is answered by the fact that we walked into a situation which is very difficult to handle at the present time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a aupplementary question.

Is the honourable minister saying that the Departmen~ ~f Highways have abandoned the road between Red Bay and Pinware for the rest of the winter? MR. FARRELL: No, Sir. In discussion with the hon. member for Labrador South -this is a very serious situation, Sir, where children have missed eleven days of school. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. FARRELL: I know that. You do not have to repeat it. I already heard you say so. AN HON. MEMBER: You would not know. How would you know that? MR. FARRELL: I am in touch with this daily.

In discussions with the hon. member for Labrador South, whom I must listen to because I try to help every ares. I think every honourable member would agree . that I so out of my 1461

March 6, 1973 Tape no. 477 Page 2 way to assist. The Department of Education.and the honourable Mr. Rousseau, who looks after Labrador Affairs, last week we discussed the situation which was very extreme in the Labrador South Area, as far as Pinware was concerned, where we could not keep the road open. We discussed means of keeping the Pinware - Forteau Road open and together we came up with a possible solution which we have not finalized up to this stage.that we would with all the facilities we had, be keeping the lower southern

section of the road open for the school children in case they might be left out of school for another few weeks - a process which is going on from day to day, with changes from day to day. All I can say at this moment is that we are still in discussions on this matter at this time, Sir. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, is the honourable minister aware that the LIP Pro.1ect which employs about fifty-four men in Rec Bay will have to be cancellccl if the rond is not openi They cannot get their logs to saw wood nnd r,et the lumber they need to carry out this project. MR. FARRELL: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to the hon. member from Bell Island - I mean I do not have any control over the natural conditions up there, I am doing the best I can to keep these areas open. I understand the situation as far as the LIP Pro~ramme is concerned and we are doing everything (I repeat) in our power to help the people concerned as far as these projects are concerned. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a E!upplementary quest:lon, I accept the honourable minister's c-xplnnation but is the honourable minister 11ware that there is a bulldozer 1n Red Bny at this particular moment that is not workinr, on the ron<l, thnt 1s not trying to open the road? Is the honourable minister a.wan• of thnt? MR. FARRELL: J certainly am, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Well why is it not working? MR. FARRELL: I certainly am, Mr. Speaker. As I explained a few moments ago, in consultation with the hon. member for Labrador South, Mr. Martin, we 1162

March 6, 1973 Tape no. 477 Page 3 Mr, Farrell. discussed this area • Now, Mr, Martin unfortunately ia not in hia seat today. I would like to say that we discussed this, I juet explained that the bulldozer in that area was unable to keep this particular

section of road open and we felt that it would be much better utilized in the lower

section for that period because as they tried to open the road, it was closing in behind them, AN HON. MEMBER: Red Bay, MR. FARRELL: These roads are drifting in right at this moment. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question: The minister personally we are not blaming because of the fact that there is a lot of snow, MR. FARRELL: No, no. MR, ROBERTS He does not get the credit either.

I think he is doing the best he can with a difficult situation but the minister has told us that he has been in touch with the member for the area,and that is a commendable step, Would the minister consider getting in touch with the people in the area who have been on to us for the past two or three days!from Red Bay? MR, FARRELL: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: They are very unhappy. Indeed we were told that they were to picket the L'Anse-a-Loup Highways Depot this morning. We do not condone that. Would the minister consider getting in touch with the people directly to get their views? MR. FARRELL: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to the hon. Leader of the Opposition, I have already been in touch with the people of Red Bay. We are discussing this at this moment, the best utilization of this for the benefit of all. I spoke to them at approximately 11:30 A.M. MR. W.N.ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Spenker: Has the minister received any report, 111nr~ l h11va and wo hnva, thnt f11r.l find oiJ 1111ppl1<111 nre r.l'ttinr: <)an~@rou11ly low in Rod 81-v? If rta, what ~tepa l11111 he taken to remccJy the: uftu11ti,,r,'! 1163

March 6, 1973 Tape no. 477 Page 4 HR. FARRELL: In answer to that question, no, Sir, I have not received any reports that the fuel and oil supplies are getting low in that area. We will be checking on it and keeping in continuous touch with them. MR. NgARY: Mr. Speaker, just one last supplementary question. I am still not clear whether the road between Red Bay and Pinware is going to be open again this winter. There is a bulldozer already in Red Bay. It has not done anything now for almost a week, on the instructions from the minister's department. The driver is there waiting.

They are satisfied to start in and try to clear the road. MR. SPEAKER: Order plea~e! The hon. member for Bell Island is getting into a debate on the question. MR. NEARY: I would like to know from the minis tr·r, Hr. Speaker, is the road going to be opened or is it not going to be opened? MR. FARRELi.: - -·-- --- - Mr. Speaker in answer to question,of the hon. member for Bell TH]nn<l; weAther permlttinR, yes, ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion second reAding of a bill, "An Act Respecting Tenandc·s Of Resident.la} Premises." HON. T. !'_!...J_!.!_CKEY (Mini_ster of Provincial Affairs and Environment_) Mr.

Speaker, if I had my Rir qual.lty regulations approved toilay, I might implement them r:f.ght in the House and solve some of the pollution problems. When I adjourned the debate, Mr. Speaker, yesterday .on this bill, I said there were a couple of items that I wnnted to cover which were raised by the opposition. There WAR a Rtntcment mode by the hon. mP.mber for White Bay South, I believe, to the effect thnt the rc-r:ommc•nclntionH of the Canadian Council on Social Development Wl're all but Jr.norecl or d:IRrcr,arded. I would 11kr. to inform the member, Mr. Speakf>r, thRt thnt js not so.

The recommcndntions made by that orr,anization, some are contained in the bill itself and what are not contained in the bill are contaJ.ned in a number of areas for which we propose 1164

March 6, 1973 Tape no. 477 Page 5 to make regulations. Before thi1 bill passes, Mr. Speaker, before it is given third reading,hopefully,in the committee stage we hope to have an amendment to it empowering the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council to make certain regulations. I would just like to refer to some of the areas in which we are asking the authority to make regulations. It would give honourable members on the other side some indication as to the kind of research and work that was done with regard to tenant/landlord relations, We would have a

section in the bill giving authority to the government to make regulations when necessary under the following headings: (1) distress, (2) covenants interlocking, (3) post-dated cheques, (4)contracting out, (5) restrictions on children, (6) restrictions on trading, (7) overholding tenants, (I think this matter was raised by the hon, member for White Bay South yesterday) (8) discrimination, (9) a standard lease, (11) accelerated rents (I think this item was mentioned by the honourable member yesterday) (13) tenants' unions or tenants' associations. In this particular area, Mr, Speaker, about the only regulation we would want to make would be one 1465

March 6. 1973 Tapci 478 vhfch would prl'Vent a landlord from doing anything to obtruct or pr~vrnt p~ople rentin~ his premf~~R to organize themsalve  into a tenants a&noc1nt1on.

Rent strike~. this 1• the haadin~ we have JM - 1 here and I am not sure but there maybe• better heading or a better phrase to use but what we have in mind here would be we feel that in fairness to the landlord,while the tenant has a right to make certain demands upon a landlord yet we feel that tenants do not have the right to withhold rent or to involve themselves in an organized fashion and refuse to pay rent for any given period of time or any long period of time,such as the situation that developed in Lake Apartments not too long ago. The other area, Mr.

Speaker, which is a very important one although it is mentioned in the bill onlv in a very general way is public welfare-tenant-protection or to cover units rented by welfare recipients and paid for by the Department of Social Services or the Department of Social Assistance. It is very important to point out, Mr. Speaker, that those areas are not covered in the bill,with the exception of the welfare-tenant-protection which as I have pointed out is covered in a rather general way. We did not have the time, Mr.

Speaker, to develop those areas to have them in the bill because it requires even more research than we have been able to do. However, we realize that most of them, if not all, are very important and we feel that some authority should be vested in government to make regulations to cover a particular situation when it arises otherwise we have a whole host of amendments along _with a very thick act which is probnhly,Rs Rome hon. members pointed out yesterday, more confusing to tennntR than nnythinr, else. We would only make reRulations j_n those arcn11, Mr.

Spl'11kcr, when the situntjon arose or when the situation wa,; 11uch that warranted. I feel the bill woul<l he weakened if we passed it 1n its present form,without r,iving tl,c authority to make regulations whenever they are necessary. 1466

March 6, 1973 Tape 478 There 1• another area, Hr. Speaker,which is deemed to be very important if thi  legi lation i  going to have any real meaning to both the tenant• and the landlord and that i  the etting up of a central regi try where all landlords hould register tho prem1••• they have for rent or are renting,giving an addre  for ervice, the number of apartments that are available for rent or that they are rentingJ that there ehould be a small licencing fee for the landlords to help defray some of the cost of providing the services that this division is going to provide to both tenant and landlord.

JM - 2 Mr. Speaker, if this is not done it will be next to impossible iu my view,no matter how much or how good a job of public relations we do to make tenants aware of what their rights are, because in effect we will not know who is renting property or who is not. I feel there is something to be said for inspection of premises where possible,in certain instances before those premises are rented and this particularly applies, Mr. Speaker, to the renting of premises by the Department of Social Assistance, the more run-down properties that are being rented today. Mr.

Speaker, another item raised by, I think the member for White Bay South yesterday.was the problem of explaining the act to the tenants or making it possible so that the tenants could determine what their rights are, what is in the act and how to protest it, He mentioned something about a brochure. I want him to know and the whole House that this matter has also been gone into in a fair amount of detail.

We have a brochure from Manitoba which has sixty-two questions and sixty-two answers which puts in layman's language, so to speak, the important aspects or the most important aspects of the bill and the matters which are of prime concern to the tenants. There is also the matter of an agreement or leases, as we sometimes refer to them, and we have a copy of the agreement that is used in Manitoba. In that province, Mr. Speaker, they have this standard agreement which applies to all 1467

March 6, 1973 Tape 478 JM - 3 tenant• and landlords. I am not ure whether that 1 workable in thi~ province and I am not sure as to the effects or how the landlords would look upon it. As I pointed out yesterday, our every effort in this area has to be made and made in a macner,while being conscious and continuing to be conscious of the acute housing shortage,so that we do not discourage development or we do not discourage people from investing in the most important area of housing.

I am not sure whether we as a province should adopt this kind of an agreement or insist that all landlords use the one agreement but there might be something to be said for having their own agreements while giving some protection, which is already provided for in the bill itself. I just want hon. members to realize that this work is being done. A great deal of research has been done and is continuing 1.n this very vital area. Mr. Speaker. while on the matter of leases, it is a subject which some of us might well take for granted as not being too important.

I came across a lease recently in whi~h there are a couple of sections which all but wipe out most of the rights of a tenant. It on the one hand specifics that the landlord will not be responsible for the corridors and hallways of a building. It specifies too that under the present legislation that people who rent those premises will not make representation or make complaints to the rent control board under any

section of the Rent Restrictions Act. Mr. Speaker, all the debate that has taken place on this bill if none of it had taken place and if we wanted one justification for bringing this hill before tl1io House,certainly there is no better one to usl' thrm ti, Ii; pnrticulnr <'X.tmple. There is one good thing, Mr. Spcnk<'r, nhout thlR lcRislntion nnd that in that for now and forever let us hope that this lcRiulntion removcn n lot of the treatment that has been h:m<lcd down to tenants and a lot of the treatmcnt,on the other 14li8

':.J. March 6, 1973 Tape 478 hand,that has been given landlords by certain tenants with regard to abusing their property. We loo~ forward to developing this very important area of tenant-landlord relations, of establishing the board• which I indic .ated u contained in the bill and developing it in a respondble way and,aa I have indicated before, Mr. Speaker, always with the knowledge that there 1- a vety acute housing shortage. It is a very important utter 1-169 JH - 4

March 6, 1973 Tape 479 and one which has to be dealt with in a res~on11ibe way.to en~ure th11t tlu;,r,. i11 est 111 " ,,.,cslf'. r""""" fr,r II poT11nn tn 1nv~itt 1n thca hou fnB ft'1ld and et I I 1 get a faf r return on that inve•tment. I u•ure this Housr, ~r. Speaker, that our every action will be responsible in this connection. Meanwhile, we are doing everything in our power to protect the tenant and the landlord. We will not take any irresponsible steps which will in effect discourage the development of housing in our province. Mr. Speaker, I have much pleasure in moving second reading to this bill.

On motion a hill, "An Act Respecting Tenancie11 Of Residential Premises," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Legislative Disabil i tie~ Act." HON. FRANK D. MOORES: (PREMIER) : Mr. Speaker, in introducing this bill it is a departure from the past, a departure that has been necessitated by the changing,! think, in our society and the pressures that are applied on it.

Previously, as the ?o~ourable Leader of the Opposition himself would know, the Premier had a parliamentary assistant to help him with his various chores regarding his constituency and so on in his office. We find now that it is necessary and desirable, I will try to outline very briefly why. Then in bringing this debate to a close we will further answer any questions that may be outstanding regarding the reasons why.

First of all the parliamentary assistant of today receives and acknowledges correspendence from the province to the Premier's office including correspondence,for instance,from M.H.A's., M.P's., inquiries from the district I represent. He takes the· appropriate action and brings the necesRary in~uiries to myself. This person, the parliamentary aseistant,also interviews people on my hehit1f on n grent mnny ocrasion11 and brinr,s bnck what they have to nay for further recommendation either to government depRrtments 1'170

March 6, 1973 Tape 479 IB-2 or to whomever those inquiries may relate. The parlinMntnry aa111tant raceivaa incomin~ phono call• tor· tha Pramler and taka11 appropriate action. lie attend  variou  meetings on my behalf and he assists me here in the House in matters regarding the answers to the questions and so on. Mr. Speaker, the need for that particular job has increased very much from the ten years ago or whenever it was that it was instituted to today.

Today there are some eighty to one hundred pieces of mail per day coming into the Premier's office and all these people who write and all these pieces of paper, as a rule, are either from concerned people that deserve attention as quickly as possible or are on matters that have a very definite concern to the government. Mr. Speaker, I think that in order to give full service to those people that are concerned we require extra assistance in my office. The other person, Mr. Speaker, who has had a background on this, as a parliamentary assistant, as I said before, is· the Leader of the Opposition.

The reason for the new appointment is to start to prlcis and do research on the various reports that we as a government receive. At the present time, for instance, the person who is in there on an interim basis as an assistant to me is doing research on governmental policy such as the North Norway Plan which is considered as a tremendous rural development programme for Northern Norway.

He is tak1.ng this and doing the research and prec:l .s on it so that my office and other departments that may be affected will have more of an accurate judgement without the trouble of or the necessity of myself or the ministers having to read it in detail. Mr. Speaker, I would like at this time to adjourn debate on this subject and return to it at a later date. On motion debate adjourned. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Resflecting Homes For Special Care." HON. JOSEPH ROUS SEAi': (~1INISTE'R OF 'RF:HAHILITATION AND RECREATION): Mr. Speaker, 1471

f-farch Ii, 1973 Tape 479 IB-3 thJ!I btll 1,muJd prov-fd., for the operation of homes for 1tpeclal care. Tlu, lfomc, For TIie AJ!"'' And Tnrl r1n~d Act In 19f,'l rn,aJt, pr1>vt11inn for the administration only of the Hoyles Home. In September of 1971 the building at Carbonear,known as Halfway House,was acquired under a Rental Purchase Agreement. The bill provides in paragraph (

d) of section (2) for the inclusion of Hoyles Home, Harbour Lodge, F.xon House and the children's home on Water Street West in the definition of homes for special care as well as any other institution in the provjnce for the care of persons who by reason of age, need or infirmity, blindness or other incapacities or disability whatsoever are unable to fully care for themselves or for the accommodation of persons for any reason considered sufficient by the Lieutenant C,overnor-in-Cotmcil.

Provision is made in section (6) for the ac·t to be carried into effect with the same force and effect as if they were incorporated in and formed part of the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation Act, 1973,to be read,and for this purpose the act shall be read contemporaneously with the act. In particular this provision applies without chanp,e to sections (11),(12), . (13), (14), (15), (16), (18), (22), (23), (24), (25), (26) and (33).

Provision is also made in section (20) for the Lieutenant Governor­ in-Cound .l to make regulations for the conduct and internal economy of these institutions and for the admission and discharge of patients and for any charges to be made to or in respect of patients anrl other matters wh1ch are considered necessary or desirable to carry out the purposes and provisions of the act. I move second reading of the bill. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I support this hill and why should I not because it involves a numher of homes, Sir, that were opened hy the previouR l.1hcrnl Aclmi.nlRtratton, thnt old whfpring boy that we have beC'n hrnrJnp: HO much nhnut fn the lnRt fl!w monthi,. Thfn iR II bill, Sfr, to providE' for the op<-rat1.on of lloy]e.R llomc, thnt p,rC'nt 1nRtitut1on down here on thc rort11r,al Cove !load that was opened a few yearR ago hy the then Premier, Prr.mfer Smallwood, to 1472 \

March 6, 1973 Tape 479 1B-4 provide for the operation of a home in Saddl .e Hill, over in Saddle Bill, in Carbouear, Sir, near Carbonear, between Harbour Crace and Catbonearewhich wa formerly known as Halfway House, a motel, beautiful, luxurious, magnificent otel built by a number of prominent Newfoundlandera,includinR 1473

March 6 1 1973 Tape 480 JM - 1 a nmnber of people in the Carbonear Area, _ I think the hon. Minister of Health will probably know what I am talking about. The owner• found that the hotel wan not feaaible and it waa taken over by the government, by my department actually,and turned into a home for the mentally retarded and physically handicapped adults,and we changed the name to Harbour Lodr,e. That was a name that I chose myself, Sir. The hon. minister might he interested in learning that. Is that the fire alarm system again, Mr. Speaker? Do we have to evacuate the building or what? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. members and the people in the galleries are wondering, lt appears that some kid pulled the fire alarm up there but there is no reason to panic, it is just a false alarm. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, even though there was a lot of controversy surrounding Halfway House which is now known as Harbour Lodge, I think it was a pretty fair investment. I do not think the government could have put Harbour Lodge there for the price that we paid for it, although it is argued that we could have gotten the building cheaper by foreclosing on the owners.

I do not know whether that would have done any good at the time, Sir. It .t°s argued that it would not. rerhaps the Minister of Health,if he want ·to speak in this debate, could elaborate on why it was necessary for the government to purchase Halfway House and not foreclose on the owners. Exon House, Sir, is a different quintal of fish. It was a building formerly occupied by the Anglican Orphanage Corporation.

It was an orphanage and as most hon. members know orphanages are going out of existence right across North America and so the Anglican people oHcred the facilities to the government to be operated for children. The nee-cl at the time, Sir, was for an extension to the home on Water Street West. The real need in this province we felt, after very careful research,was for a home, a modern, up-to-date home for mentally retarded and physically handicapped children. So 1474

March 6, 1973 Tape 480 in the first instance, Sir, we leased the building,over a ten year period,from the Anglican Corporation and later we made the outright purchase. 1 am not quite certain, Mr. Speaker, if all the negotiations were concluded when we got flung out of office or not. Perhape the hon. minister could tell us when he i  closing the debate,becau e the hon. Minister of Provincial Affair  may have had to finalize the deal, draw up the documents and the conveyance and so forth and pay the first installment. Now, Mr.

Speaker, since we opened Exon House, I think it was probably almost three years ago, there has been a rumor that the present administration, if you wish, has gotten away from the original concept of Exon House. Exon House was designed, Sir, to try to rehabilitate mentally retarded and physically handicapped children in this province,and for the first time in Newfoundland, Sir, we had employed at that institution what we called social counsellors. As a matter of fact 1 think in the early stages we sent one or two over to St. John, New Brunswick,for training. The whole idea, Mr.

Speaker, was to try to do away with the attitude that people had prior to this, of making their children wards of the ·state and hoping or thinking that they would have to leave the child in an institution until the day it died. Now we wanted to get away from this attitude, Sir, and we wanted to try to rehabilitate as many of the children as possible, if at all possible to rehabilitate the children, and return them to their own home. This meant, Mr.

Speaker, that they would come into JM - 2 Exon House any for a period of a year, two years, five years, whatever time was necessary to give the children whatever training they could absorb and then return them to their own homes. We also wanted to tnke care of a number of the children from the Chilrlren 's Home on Water Street West and in some cases, Mr. Speaker, it is tragic to say but some of these children do not have any homes and in some cases I suppose it is 147;j

March 6, 1973 Tape 480 JM - 3 •• equally tragic to say that a lot of the parent• do not want the children back. Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, apart from all this,what we wanted to do was to try and give the children as much training as they could absorb. . So this started out more or less as an institution where not only would you have children for custodial care, children who could not fend for themselves,who had to have close supervision for their own safety a~d protection but you would also have children actually going to school,even if it only meant, Mr.

Speaker, learning how to use the toilet, learning music, learning how to paint and draw. We had hoped, Mr. Speaker, to put on a couple of additional classrooms down at Exon House so that parents who live in the greater St. John's Area could bring their children to Exon House by day, drop them off and come back in the evening and pick them up.Or to give the family a break,if they were going away on vacation or just wanted a break period,they could bring the child down to Exon Ho~se, leave the child there for a couple of weeks and when they return they could come and take the child home again.

Now this was a good concept, Sir, but we have heard very strange rumors, very strange rumblings from Exon House of late, Mr.

Speaker, that the original concept of Exon House baa gone down the drain, the morale at Exon House is bad, that the new minister when he took over the new administration did not follow the original concept and that they have fallen back into the same old way of treating the children on Water Street West, Sir, which was what we were trying to get away from in the beginning, I do not know if it is true or not, Sir, but we hnvc heard reports about it, We heard a couple of social counsellors who were employed at Exon House then come out and make 11omc pretty 11erious clrnrp,es about the way Exon House waa being run, about the staffing problems down there, about the morale over at Exon House, Sir.

We had heard a rumor a few months ago that the 1476

March 6, 1973 Tape 480 adlllinistr•tor at Exon Rouse had been suspended for two weeks and no J"eason was given, Mr. Speaker, for hie sus.pension and he was later put back in his old job. No reaaoii was given, Mr. Speaker, and I JM - 4 submit that this was very demoralizing on the whole staff at Exon Bouse. Then we heard the latest rumor,when restructuring took place, that there was 1oing to be a new administrator appointed at Exon House - and that seems to have fallen through. Now, Sir, when this controversy was taking place,and it is unfortunate that these things have to be brought out into the open but sometimes that is the o.nly way you can get 1477

March 6, 1973 Tape 4 81 PK 1 to the root of the problem. We were accused,a11 an opposition, the Leader of the Opposition was accused, I was accuaed of usinr, mentally retarded children for political purposes. What nonsense! All we were doing was looking for information. Mr. Speaker, what the social counsellor was saying about Exon House? Was it true? Was it not true? Was Exon House being used for the purpose for which it was originally designed?

At one stap.e, Sir, the then Minister of The Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation lashed hack at me and said that there was no planning put into it, this and that, it was not suppose to be this kind of an ins ti tut1 .on. I did not even bother to defend myself, Sir, I just ignored it. It was pure ir,norance. Nothing in his files, he said, nothing on record to show that this was the kind of an institution we were going to run down there. Well, Sir, I have a letter here, first of all I have the paper that went to cabinet, puhlic welfare, 40-1969.

The paper that went to cabinet establishing F.xon House which recommended amongst other things, Mr. Speaker, that we employ the services of Dr. Stanley who was well known in this field of work in Eastern Canada, as a matter of fact, throughout the whole of Canada. He had started a similar in~t~tution over in St. John, New Brunswick an institution called "The Training Facilitie11 of the Dr. William F. Roberts Hospital School, !st. John. New Tlrunswick." Dr.

Stanley, Sir, volunteered his services. made himself available,free of charge,to this province to help us set up a similar institution here in Newfoundland over here at Faxon llouse. Mr. Sp£>aker, also recommended in that paper was authorization for me to appoint an advisory committee with representation from puhlic health nursing. medicine, education, and the Association of Retarded Children. This was done, Mr. Speaker, and this advisory committee and Dr.

Stanley spent months and months planning F.xon House, workinp, along with my officials, the dep~rtmcnt that I represented at that time,to try and work out a plan whcrt>hy (1) severely and profoundly retarded chUdrcn.who were bedfast or vuJncrnhle hut who do not require intensive nursinp, care would be 1178

March 6, 1973 Tape ,,_, Ptc - 2 accommodate at that institution. It was felt that acc0111111odations should be made at Exon House for thirty of these children, and (2) that are severely and profoundly retarded, who are ambulatory active and potential destructive that thirty of those children will be acco1T111odated there and the trainable retardates,approximately thirty would be housed at Exon House, another thirty educable retardates, pseudo-retardates and children with specific learning disabilities.

Because there was no space for classroom space, Sir, or occupational therapy it was felt that classroom should be erected on the grounds, two portable classrooms connectinp, the main building. Provision was made, Mr. Speaker, in the 1969-1970 eatimAtes 1n the ·amount of $50,000 for the necessary extensions and alterations. The classrooms unfortunately were never built. So, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Public Works of the day set about with his officials to carry out the recommendations of Dr.

Stanley and the advisory commi.ttee that was set up representing public health nursing, medicine, education and the Association of Retarded Children. Here was what Dr. Stanley reco11111endcd, Sir, this is on file down in the minister's department. Dr. Stanley saia: The most obvious shortcominr of the present residential service is that it caters almost exclusively to severely and profoundly retarded children.

I was very impressed by both the Blttitudes and the skillR of your nursing staff at the childrens home and had the impression that they were doinr, a very capable job with children in these categories,representing special medical and nursing problems ''However," he said," I would feel that there are a considerable dumber of children in this home who do not present such special medical and nursing problems and would indeed be better cared for in a foster home environment.

There do not appear to be adequate facilities for either indoor or outdoor eKercising for those youngsters at the home who are not permanently bedfast. There are also at the Water Street home a number of ambulatory,hyperactive children some of whom are tra1nahl~,for whom the Water Street facilities are entirely unsuitable and whose eare imposes considerable strain on the 1-179

March 6, 1973 Tape 481 PK - 3 nursing staff.'' Then he ~oes on to talk about the correctional tnatitutiona,'They should be tied in with the children& home. 1 "To tum to Exon House, this is a very beautiful building~ So this expert, the only expert I know in Canada on these matters. Sir, Dr. Stanley. "This home';he said," is a very beautiful building which should be readily adaptable as a residential facility for mentally handicapped children.

In view of its proximity to the university and hopefully its eventual untilization as a teacher area by the Department of Sociology, Social Science and Medicine at the university, it has the potential.'' in other words what he was sayin~, Sir, we had it ideally located because it would be near the new hospital to be built on campus over here at the university. It is being built now,thanks to the planning and foresight of the previous administration, Dr. Stanley saw it then, Sir, as we did.

"Ideally located, 11 he said,"because it is going to be near that teaching hospital over at Memorial University.'' Yet we heard screams from the minister at that time when thil'I controversy cnme up,"Oh, it was a mistake." Exon House waa a mistake.' ' J say it was not a mistake, Sir.

"It has the potential to become a centre for a variety of disciplines concerned with problems of child development and an institution which the province could be very proud, If it is to fulfil its function it is essential that its utilization no~ be restricted to the severely and profoundly retarded categories." That is what I said in the beginning, Mr. Speaker.

"Although the need to provide residential care for a certain small proportion of trainable and educable retardates s,ems as yet not to have made itself too much felt in Newfoundland, I have no doubt that it 1s there and that consultation with your local child psychiatric personnel·and special educators would confirm it,'' The he ~oes on to say, "I would stronP,ly recommend the top floor of each residential winr, be used for traininr. and f!ducable children reserving the lower floor for severely and profoundly retarded children. One of these p,round floor units should be reserved for oedfast and vunerable. 1480

Much 6, 1973 Tape 481 PJC - 4 non-aggre aive ambulatory children while the other should look after the mor,aggreHive,hyperactive,severely retarded ch'ild. In these groups there should be no problem with mixing the sexes and it is more reasonable to divide them according to their behavioural characteristics than according to sex.'' Then he p,oes on to say, "I have already discussed with Mr.

Frampton, I pres1.a11e an official of the Department of Public 1-!orks, the structural chanr,es which we feel would he necessary and we will not go into any great detail here." He said, "I will close with a few comments , which I think are particularly important. 1 would think it essential.before your department proceeds with the development of Exon House along the lines suggested,that you have available to you a competent clinical team capable of providing an adequate screening service:'~ell, Sir, we did that too, We carried out that recommendation. Speaker, Dr, Nora Renouf has done yeoman work, Mr. 1481

MArch ,, , 197) Tap" No, 482 NH - 1 'fR. NEARY: and as chairman of the admitting conanitte of Exon House, she is an expert in her own right, right here in our own province, I assume, Mr. Speaker, that Dr. Renough is sufficiently qualified to know what she is doing. Then he says that a nurse or social worker ls capable of givin~ leadership, traininr, and direction to your child-care worker who will be responsible for the home life of the institution.

"I would strongly urge that the programme for trainables and educables not be developed until you have a director of education and training and a supervisor of child care workers that you need, regardless of what pressure comes from full utilization of your institutions." We followed that recommendation too, Mr, Speaker. We were gradually phasing in that institution.

We were not in a rush to fill it up and·have every bed over there filled up, We were taking 011r time, moving the children in as we got the trained staff - the nursing assistants, the social councillors and the nurses, ward mothers and ward fathers and all the staff we needed, Sir. We took our time. We were not in any hurry, First of all we moved thirty children down from Water Street West, from the children's home up there. Then we started bringing children in from homes across the province. We were taking our time, Sir.

We were not going to be bulldozed into filling the institution up over night, no more than we were with harbour lodge. We decided to phase it in. We were pioneering, Sir. Only the bedfast children requiring special nursing and medical care should be left at Water Street and the remainder should be transfern!d to f.xon llouse. "I would nluo urp,c," sny Or. Stnnlc.-y,M,8., B.C.H., C.R.C.P.(C), I r,ue1111 th11t 1e sufficient qualificntion ,Mfn1stcr of Health, "to advise the p,ovcrnment of the time.# That was sufficient, end enouP,h qualifications. The minister does not th:fnk so. Associate .f AO 'l .L ·.tu""

March 6, 1973 Tape No, 482 NM - 2 Director of the Roberta Institution, Roberts Hospital School, in St. John, New Brunswick. He said, "I would also urge that no time be lost in forming some sort of advisory committee with representation from Public Health Nursing, Medicine, Education and the Association for Retarded Children. Representatives from these various groups should have a chance to comment on planning before it is implimented." That waa done, Mr. SpeRker, carr:fed rip,ht out to the letter of the law, never departed one iotn from the recommendnt1ons of Dr. Stanley. So I ask, Mr.

Speaker, where has Exon House gone wrong? We opened it up. I did not have time to finish it. I got flung out. This administration was flung out. We passed it on to the new administration. Everything was working perfectly at Exon House when I left, Sir. It was perfect, no complaints. Dr. Renough was giving us periodical reports, everything was going along fine. Then all of a sudden we find out,via press and radio.that the administrator, the administrator who runs both institutions, runs Exon House and Water Street West,has been suspended, and no reason given him. There may have been a reason, Mr. Speaker.

The administrator was suspended and I think his assistant or one other perr.on over there was suspended. No, it was not his assistant, the administrator and the director of nurses, Sir, the two key people in these institutions,responsible for the care of about 140 or 150 mentally retarded, physically handicapped children, suspended and no reason given, and then put back in their former position and still no reason given, after two weeks' suspension, I presume without pay. I do not know whether they were paid or not Sir, which completely demoralized the two institutions,according to the

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 482 intorm•tf .on that I have, Sir. Thi was a hame, there wa no continuity. NM - 3 The new administration got away from the concept, did not understand it, Sir. They were not big enough to be able to comprehend what it was we were trying to do for mentally retarded children, physically handicapped children in this province. They could not compt'ehend it, Sir. So the continuity was lost. Morale was shot. The children are not getting the training that we had visualized nnd their minister has the nerve to come back and tell u, "this is politics.

You are trying to mah! politics out of mentally retarded and rhysically handicapp~d children." "We did not do any planning," we were! told. "There was nothing in the minister's office to show that we had made any plans for that institution." Well there it is, Sir, and I am satisfied to table it, if the honourable Speaker wants me to, Sir, we demand an explanation. We demand an explanation in this House, and the people of Newfoundland are entitled to have it. What has P,one wrollg at Exon House'? AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down and I will tell you. MR. NEARY: The honourable minister will have hie chance.

The ------ ·- honourable Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation is dealing with this matter now, Thank God. We might get some sense put back in it. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that some of the political appointments that we heard about, that NAPE complained about so violently to this government, were . made over at Exon House. I do not mind political appointments if they have the qualifications, Mr. Speaker, do not mind it one bit. AN HO~. MEMBER: Name one . MR. NEARY: I do not have to name one. If they have the qualifications, Sir, hy all mr.S:ns hire them. l'out you do not put theu1 in over somebody's head.

You hnve to have qualifications for that kind of work, Sir. 1184

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 482 NM-· 4 Anybody that was hir~d down there over the time I was there had qualifications. They had the qualifications, Sir. The honourable minister may question some but they did. They had the qualifications and he can check their qualifications. You will find out that they did have the qualifications,Sir, and they were doing a good job. Sut where has Exon !louse gone off the rails? That is what I would like to know, and if it has gone off let us get it back on. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I dealt with Harbour Lodge briefly in the beginning, I would like to have some more information on Harbour Lodge. I have to ask the questions first before I can get the information, lf the honourable undertaker from Harbour Grace were not so stupid - why does the undertaker not get up and make a speech in this House7 Yes, you have to ask the questions first before you can get the answers you are looking for, Mr. Speaker. We had to ask the Minister of Highways today about the bulldozer at Red Bay before we got the answer. We had to drag it out of him.

We asked him about ten questions before he finally told us they were going to open that road down there. Getting back to Harbour Lodge, Sir, despite all the ciriticism that we had for takinc "the honourable Premier - I do not know but the honourable Premi.er was into it himself, for takiTIR the honourable Premier off the hook, no judicial enquiry into that, Mr. Speaker, no .judicial en<Juiry into Harbour Lodr,e, no judicial enquiry, Sir. The Minister of Health - AN HON. MEMKER: Let us start on that side. HR. ~EARY: Nobody on this side was into it, not one soul over here, Mr.

Speaker, not one soul on this side of the J-!ouse had one penny in Halfway House, not one soul. Maybe a client of the honourable member for St. John's F.ast, but not one soul in thjs House, Sir, hnii on,~ p.,,m y f n Jin 1 fwny 11011,11•. No )111lfrl11l r•11111dry Into 1h11t, Sfr, 1185

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 482 NM - 5 in~e the government took it over. AN HON, MFMBER: Inaudible, ~-- . -- ----- MR. NEARY: That is right, because I think it was a good buy myself. I did not mind taking the honourable Premier 1486

March 6, 1973 Tape no. 483 Pagel - MRW Mr. Neary, off the hook or the hon. Minister of Health off the hook or any other Tory that was involved in it and most of them were Tories; Mr, Speaker. I think we have as fine an institutuion for looking after mentally retarded adults and phyaically handicapped adults aa I have seen anywhere in Canada, Sir, or in Europe. I have seen a good many of them. The honourable minister who is looking after it now should be proud of it. There is still a great need in this province, Mr. Speaker, for additional facilities to care for mentally retarded and physically handicapped adults.

This is the biggest problem we have in Newfoundland right now - the biggest problem we have, They are not all sitting on the other side of the House either. What I want to know, Mr. Speaker - I was in the process of phasing in Harbour Lodge and I might say that we hired ninety per cent of the staff who I think came from the Harbour Grace, Carbonear Area,or even more, maybe one hundred per cent. I might have helped get the honourable member elected, Sir, I do not now. I might have helped to get him elected. All the hiring was done when I was minister. MR. MURPHY: 1bey are not quaiitied. MR.

NEARY: Yes, they were qualified people. They were all qualified. Everyone of them were qualified, Sir. Those who did not need special qualifications, the hiring was based on need, Sir. Married men were given preference and where the head of the household was unemployed and could not work, his wife was hired. The honourable member knows that. MR. MURPHY: Yes. MR. NEARY: But, Sir, I do not want to get side-tracked here. When we were phasing in Harbour Lodge, there was a great deal of furniture and equipment that we had no use for. There was a television in every room. There was a bar.

There were a number of other items there that were surplus 1487

H,ir,;h f,, I 'J 7'1 P•g• 2 to tl10 ""'"cl. T wnulrl 1 tk"' for th,. honourablP. mini•t•r, when ha 1• clo•J.np, tl1r <lehnte, to tr-11 u~ W'hcithnr ,aJ 1 thtsH! tcileviaion1, vhether the equipment that was surpluR to that building hns been disposed off, if it has been sold or what has happend to it? Is it put in storage? Has it been sold? Has it been sold by public tender? What has happened to all the equipment at Harbour Lodge? I would like to know also, Mr, Speaker if the building is fully occupied now, I think it was probably about, I would say,thirty to forty per cent occupied when I was flung out, Mr.

Speaker. I would like the minister to give us a progress report on Harbour Lodge. How is it working out? Is the morale good there? Are the people content there? Believe me, Mr. Speaker, they have the most luxurious accommodations in Eastern Canada. They have one of the most beautiful views, I suppose, in Newfoundland, over there in Harbour Lodge. Are they happy over there?

Tell us about the waiting list now because, as I stated earlier, here is an area where we had one of the greatest needs in Newfoundland, (it was the greatest, Sir) to provide acco1111110dations and shelter for adults mentally and physicall handicapped, who could not fend for themselves. What is the waiting list like now? I think there were several hundred when I left the department or if you want to put it another way, when I was flung out. If there is still a long waiting list, Mr. Speaker, what steps are this government going to take to provide additional facilities?

Does the minister have any plans to expan<l Harbour Lodge, build a couple of wings on it? Are you going to build n new imititution anywhere in Newfoundland? Will there be one built on the West Co:ist or in Central Newfoundland to nccommodate either children or adults? Whnt plans does the honourable minister have? Are we stopped now? Are we goinp, to wait until this crowd over here form the new administration before we start to move ahead again? MR. MURPHY: We are not going to wait that long. MR.

NEARY: The honourable minister shakes his head and says.:"No, we are not going Lo wait," I would like for the minister to tell us what plans 1488

.:.. March 6, 1973 Tape no. 483 Page 3 they have, if they have any, to expand the facilities of Harbour Lodge? Where will the new institutions be built, what part of the province? Now, Mr. Speaker, I think I have said enough on this. I am beginning to get hoarse. I am not in very good voice today. If I were, I could probably carry on for another hour or ao. I have thrown out a number of questions and if we can only keep the "crackies" quiet over there for a few minutes, perhaps the Minister of Rehabiliation and Recreation will give us some of the answers. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, I do not propose to delay the House too long. I am sure the honourable minister will then give some answers to the honourable gentleman's questions. There are a few that I should give him, because he directed most of his blast at me. Normally, I would sit down and take it, except that it would be very wrong to have the public of this province, having been fed such garbage today by the honourable gentleman, accept this as truth, what in fact is something other. The episode of Exon House showed its head, It was brought to the public not by me but by the honourable gentleman who bragged, Mr.

Speaker, about the fact that he had a few spies in that institution. He knew what was going on even though he was out of office. He talks about the suspension of two people. I am not going to p,et into personalities, Sir, today. I did not rise to debate when the honourable gentleman threw it out and I am not going to rise to it today except to say that I accept full responsibility for the suspension of those two people, that those two people fully understand why.

The honourable gentleman and the people of this province were toid why, publicly, by a public statement,that because of allegations made by members of the staff of that institution and because of the kind of institution that was, Mr. Speaker, where retarded children were being housed, because of the importance of that institution, The kind of care that was necessary for those children, I, as minister,was not prepared to take any chances on the general we]l-beinP, and protection and care of those children. 1489

March 6, 1973 Tape no. 483 Page 4 MR, HICKEY: I took the only responsible course Ot)en to me, upon the advice, Mr. Speaker, of the officials, the same officials who worked for the honourable gentleman, unless he wants to say today that those officials were or are incompetent - does he want to say that? If he does, then he worked with them for a long time, something like three years. I did not find them incompetent, Mr. Speaker. I find them very competent people• on my own assessment c,f the situation,' I approved the suspension, as recommended by the senior officials of that department.

I make no apologies for that. Those two people were suspended and when an investigation turned up nothing serious to the extent that would prohibit them from resuming their duties, they were notified accordingly and they were paid for the time that they were suspended. I took the responsible position, at least of protecting the people who live in that institution when such rumours raised their heads. If I had not done that, Mr. Speaker, the very first person who would come out and term my actions as irresponsible would have been that same hqnourable gentleman. That is typical of him.

With regard to the suspension, those two people presently employed and presently working in ithat institution nre well aware of why,· what happened, what brought it on and the end results. I listened to a lot about Dr. Stanely, The honourable gentleman said that I indicated by a public press release that there were no plans. I did at no time, Mr. Speaker, said that there were no plans. The honourable gentleman kept making press releases, talking about his blueprints, the blueprint that he had left in that department before this administration took over.

I questioned through the new media, by way of answerinr, those comments, where was that blueprint? The only blueprint, Mr. Speaker, that is in that department that was left by the former administration is this blueprint; that a building was purchased, f:l.rst of all leased. 11£10

March 6, 1973 Tape 484 lt would have been better today if were till in• lease with regards to that irititution but no, we bought it. The whole issue of this institution, the leasing of it and all,was done by the Leader of JH - 1 the Opposition when he was mini ter. That is who started it, not the hon. gentleman but the present Leader of the Oppoition. I do not question, Mr. Speaker, the sincerity of the Leader of the Opposition when he et out to find an institution.

I think his idea was basicallt sound to lease that building and to use it until such time as we could develop the proper type of progralllllle for retarded children in this province, Hr. Speaker, the hon. member for Bell Island refers to Dr. Stanley and I am not about to question Dr. Stanley's qualifications, his academic standing or otherwise but I will say this to the hon. gentleman,let him talk to Dr. Stanley today about Exon House and see what he has to say. I have talked to him, I talked to Dr. Stanley, Mr.

Speaker,when I was in New· Brunswick as I talked to a number of other people with regard to retarded children and a progra111De for retarded children, The hon. gentleman would like the people of this province to believe that he personally left a great blueprint in that department and that this administration did not follow up or did not do anything. Mr.

Speaker, nothing could be further from the truth because the same hon. gentleman that we hear today making those statements, and he must make them just for the want of hearing himself talk because it was he who did not follow up, He talks about a training programme. How many people did he put in that institution when he was minister that were trained,to provide a well developed programme for retarded children? He did not tell this House that, Mr. Speaker, I will tell them. I will tell this House. He placed one person that was sent to New Brunswick after being hired and trained and that person, Mr.

Speaker, within a matter of months 1 left the employment of that department to give 1491

March 6. 1973 Tape 484 birth to a child. One would not want a batter reaaon to leave but that paraon did not return to employment in that department but proceeded to raise her family. One can hardly condemn her for that, But l get thia kind of static about pol'itical appointments, he raised the matter of political appointments as it applies to me. Yes, Mr. Speaker, two of the ao-called political appointments are in that institution today and l was responsible for putting them there. l was responsible for JK - 2 approving their applications.

They went through all the normal channels of obtaining employment in this government,namely the selection board, the completing of application, the meeting with the administrator and the other people in that institution, What are their qualifications, Mr. Speaker? It is funny you know how people talk • . They have a short memory apparently because if their memories were a bit better. they woul~ not dare open their mouth.

The same hon. gentleman who talks to me about political appointments haa yet to appoint to that inatitution a person,in terms of counselling services or a programme development, with the kind of qualification• of the two people that l put there. One is one credit away from two degrees and has something like ten years experience as a teacher and a ·m~sic teacher,in addition to a regular academic teacher.

There was never a bit of music taught at Exon House, never a bit of music heard I suppose before this administration but those kids down there today have music and they have a new piano.thanks to the ladies auxiliary who provided it,and they have a competent number of people to provide at leaat the basics of a programme for development. It is not what it should be I Mr. Speaker, far- from it and it is going to take a while before in fact they do get tha~.

The other person who was nppointed in the area of counselling services had a deirce from Memorial University. a young person not with a great deal of practical experience but a person with a great,burning desire 14~2

March 6, 1973 Tape 484 to work with regarded children. Surely that must be an ingredient, urely that must be one of the requirements for people who work in that kind of an environment and that, Mr. Speaker, is not the easiest environment to work in. Those were the two people that I appointed when I was minister. The other person who was appointed at Exon House was appointed upon~ whole series of recommendations, from the deputy minister to the administrator to the selection board, to Dr. Renouf and others. What does the hon.gentleman talk about when he talks about political appointments as regards to Exon House?

No doubt when we get to debate other parts of that department,we will get on to a few more alleged political appointments and we will show the hon. gentleman again that the people who were appointed by me were well qualified and resulted in a savings of over a half million dollars in about eight months. That is performance, Mr. Speaker. If that is political appointments we need more. With regards to the progra11111e, maybe the most important part of this debate,as regards to the point raised by the hon. gentleman from Bell Island.it should be pointed out, Mr.

Speaker, the weakness in what started to be if not a perfect solution to the problem of retarded children in this province at least a reasonable facility. JM - 3 The weakness or the broken link ,as it were ·,in the prograllDlle ,as announced by or as developed by Dr. Stanley of New Brunswick,was that the hon. gentleman did not follow through. He had.one person trained and that person left and there was never another went to New Brunswick for training. I said, Mr. Speaker, outside this hon. House,that Exon House was not the location for retarded children and I say it today in this House and so will Dr.

Stanley say it and so will anyone else who has been connected with retarded children and the development of a programme for them. An institution of this kind,where we have children who are able to get out around and move around,it ia no place for an institution, Mr. Speaker, on one of the busiest freeways or highways 1493

Karch 6, 1973 Tape 484 in this city. There has been an occasion when a child got out of that in•titution. can you imagine if the proper security measures were not JM - 4 maintained, -if the proper control were not maintained, what w~uld happen if those children were to get out of that institution onto a freeway or alaost a freeway which passes right in front of the door. The kind of institution, Mr.

Speaker, that is required for retarded children.as indicated by classic examples in the State of Connecticut, in other areas in the Commonwealth and on the mainland of Canada is a quiet area with a large plot of land,sufficient for those children to get out and get physical exercise and plenty of sunshl:;<:< 't and fresh air,at least when it is available,not a situation like we have at Exon House where there are no provisions and there can be no provisions, Mr. Speaker, because the room is not there. It is only in recent months that we managed to get into a fire drill in that institution.

Did the hon. gentleman talk about for the three years that he was minister? No one in that institution heard of such a thing as a fire drill. 14g4

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 485 NM - 1 rm. HICKEY: Where they were located, the ones that were confined to bed, little or no outdoor space, Mr. Speaker, and when someone sur,r,ested a ramp be installed in the event of fire, who stopped it? The honourable Rentleman who sat in this House, Mr. Speaker, waa one of the first to ob.1ect and.among other people close by, prevented that ramp from bein~ installed. But we get the blame for the non­ development of F.xon HouRe, What ho~ash/ There has been more done, Mr.

Speaker, at Exon House since this administration took over, of a constructive nature, than had been done since those children went in there. I will stand on that statement and whenever the honourable gentleman wants to take me up on it, I will give him adequate proof. Before I left that department,a commit.tee was set up, as a result of one of my trips abroad looking at the whole problem of retarded children and their development. The workshops whereby adults when they reach a certain ar,e can go on, the educable ones cRn go on and develop not only, Mr.

Speaker,to take care of themselves but to go on out into ~ninful employment, even if it is on a part-time basis to make their contribution to society and most important of all, Mr. Speaker, to make their contribution to their own livelihood, which gives them some sense of living and some value for living. This is the kind of programme that has to be instituted in this province. Where did the honourable gentleman make any move in that direction? He made none. What was done to extend or carry out other features of the programme as outlined by Dr. Stanley? llothing.

And yet he has the ~all today to stand in thia llou11c ,•ind _tend to ridicule a pror,rnmmc at lenat thnt is gettinf off the ground and 11 progrnmme as pnrt of a government who has given special emphasis to retarded children and the care of such children in this province, by separating that very important responsibility and putting it into another department under the direction of a capable and competent minister.

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 485 NM - 2 MR. HICKEY: The honourable gentleman would have us to believe that he had the same policy and blueprint and that those awful people took over the government and did nothing for the retarded children of this province. It is impossible, Mr. Speaker, it is just impossible to determine what motivates a person to make such a statement when he, himself, above all else knows that that statement is not correct. I am at a loss to know what motivates anyone to do that. But it will not be too long, Mr.

Speaker, please God, when this committee is finished their work and when the minister gets an opportunity to do what he has in mind, it will not be too lonr. before improvements will be seen at Exon House, in addition to the ones that have already been made. Why for two years that denartment wer'.! complaininet about the installation of an elevator for ,those children to use. Did the honourable r,entleman manage to get that through Treasury Board or Cabinet or wherever he had to take it?

Two years those people were complaininp about an elevator, It was not until this administration took it over or took office that this improvement was attended to. Mr. Speaker, I do not have all the answers to Exon House, I never claimed to. I am sure nobody in this House is going to claim to. But it is pretty cheap politics if the honourable r,entleman wants to stand here and try to moke politics out of the retarded children of this province. I made that statement outside this House, Mr. Speaker, I make it inside this House today and I mean it.

If anyone wish to make politics out of something, I sugr,est they use something else than the retarded children, Exon llouse and the Water Street Home. AN HON. MEMHf.R: Shame! Shame! !:!~..!!.~_CKEY : He sugp,ests that they were not going to fill that inRtitutfon, they were p,oinp, to do it on a p,radual baRie when this 1-18 G

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 485 NM - 3 MR. HICKEY: programme was developed. The honourable r,entleman apparently forgets, Mr. Speaker, that when I took over that department there was room for four children in that institution. Did he call that not filled? Is that not fantastic? But the honourable gentleman says he was not going to fill it. He says he was not going to fill it. No, he was just going to block it off to the seams, That is different than filling it up. Now, Mr, Speaker, people of this province are not going to fall for that, They are not going to accept that.

This administration will develop the programme for retarded children. The honourable gentleman can do what he wishes. He can lay claim, having been minister of that department,and I take no credit from him or anybody else who makes a contribution in this area. No credit whatever will I ever attempt to take. But let him not stand in this House and for cheap politics, ridicule what someone else tries to do and twist things around to make it look as though we on this side could not care less about the retarded children of this province, One -of the big things that the former administration did not do, Mr.

Speaker, which is about to be done and which there is some work already done on, and that is the setting up of a registry to determine how many children in this province are retarded. It is rather difficult to solve a problem when you do not know how big that problem is. The former administration did not know and I concede the point I douht if we know yet how man•· such children there are throughout this province, any more than we know how many people are disabled or need help in some other area. Mr.

Speaker, I have the greatest confidence in the minister who is responsible for this institution and the others, and I know when the corranittee that is presently studying that institution and thnt area of jurisdiction, wlien they hring in their T.f'port T know tl1t1t. thn oiintntt•r wt 11 t nlr,, 11 1111.t Rive, t t I h1• 1~ !J 'l

March 6, 1973 Tape No, 485 11M - 4 MR. HICKEY: priority that it deserves and 1 know too, and this 1 ona of the, nAl naaon• I Am proud to be a member of thia ,.overnment, I know that when that report ia made that thi  government will itve the priority to retarded children in this province that they truly deserves. That is something that the honourable gentleman and nobody else as part of the former admini tration for the last twenty-three years can say. 1 am proud to be able to ay that, Mr. Speaker, because I know it to be true. MR. WM. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I will not get involved in the honourable minister's tedious, boring attempts to vindicate and defend himself. I want to make one or two comments and ask a few questions of the minister concerning these homes for special care with the hope that when the minister sums up on closing the debate he can give some additonal information to the House. One situation,which has alway~ intrigued me yet in a way disgusted me, is the payment or the system or method of payment in respect of Hoyles Home.for example,and perhaps the other institutions, old age institutions which we have in St.

John's,and elsewhere in the province in the future certainly, the method of payment, how the payment by the inmates or the patients,as the case might be, at the institutions, how payment is made on their behalf?

I know several men who have struggled all their lives and put n few thousand dollars aside and find themselves in the Hoyles llome,for example, and find that that small nest egg which thcyhoped would co to their wives, I am not worried about their children, the cld ldr"n C'.nn ft•nd for themRc lves workinr, 11nd oth~rwise, but which they hoped could RO to their wivea ie drained 11way from them because of the high rntes which people who are supposed to be able to pay have to pay. I believe over $600 is the current cost of a patient or 1498

March 6, 1973 Tape No. 485 MR. WM. ROWE: a resident of one of these homes, particularly the Hoyles Home. I do not know how many NM - 5 1499

MKrch 6, 1973 Tape 486 PK - 1 persona ~r~ 1n Hoyle~ Homo at the moment but my information ia that there are no more than one dozen who are in fact paying their own way either wholly or partially. This may not be a correct figure. It may oaly be a doze.nor so who are paying the whole shot and maybe several others are paying for part of the cost of staying in the home. Most of the other people there, if not all the other people,have their way paid by the Depnrtment of Socinl Assistance or Rehabilitation,whatever the case mi~ht be under I guess the Canada Assistance Plan. It seems to me, Hr.

Speaker, that although people should obviously be encouraged to pay their own way. it seems to me that there is some sort of a basic inequity, something unjust about the operation of Hoyles Home and perhape the other homes. I do not pretend to be an expert on it, All I know is what is told to me by friends and relative& of one or two of these people who are :In the home and who are in fact paying their own way. If a person has a lot of money, a fair amount of moncy,certainly he should pay for this hip.hly expensive care.

But in the case of somebody who has merely put a few dollars away,hoping to leave it to his wife and now finds himself having to go d:l.p into that and get rid of it completely and then have welfare pay for it and presumab _ly_ after he is dead and gone the welfare department has to take care of his wife,(well his widow) it seems to me that there is something basically wrong and unjust about that situation. I would he the first to admit that maybe I am labouring under a misapprehension with rer,ard to the proiramme but I would be interested to hear what the mi niste .r has to say ahout that type of thing.

The ,iccon<l thinr. thRt I would like to ask the minister, Mr, Speaker, 1f1 fn re!l{lect of the bncklop . \-1hich preAently l'X:I At11 concerninr, Jloyles Home and Exon llomrn and othe.r institutions throuRhout th<" province. I would like him to ~1ve U!l some idea ns to what sort of a waiting list there is . ~'hat kind of a hacklog exists on people who have applied to ro into these homes? The one that I am particularly concerned about is the 1500

March 6, 1973 Tape 486 PK - 2 h0111e or homes for retarded children. Every menber haa had the experience in rural Newfoundland of ~oing into a home and finding a pathetic and pitiful sight,namely; a mother with four or five other children of ordinary normal intelli~ence,completely saddled, completely down, really unable to take care of her other children because she has to devote almost all of her time looking after some poor,subnormal in intelligence or in physical ability, some poor child which is not able to 10 into one of these institutions and receive the proper care and trainin~.

I would like to hear from the minister what the backlog is on thi& type of case throup,hout the province,if he has that information availahle. I would also like to find out about the posAibility of any new homes, for retarded children particularly,being built throughout thi.s province in the relatively near future. It is all very good for a family from St. John's here to have a child in one of the homes for retarded children which they can visit conveniently. But for someone in my district, for example, White Bay South,to have a child in St.

John's here it is very inconvenient, in many cases heartbreaking for the mother and father concerned because they do develop tremendous attachments to their children, especially children who are particularly vunerahle and pitiful in many respects as some of these children are. For them to have to come into St.

John's here to visit these children is an impossibility and the problem is of course the ties loosen and loosen and pretty soon the child 1& merely an institutional child, it is almost an orphan,for practical terms,and the mother and father ar.e constrain of necessity to devote their time to their children who are at home and they cannot visit or attend to the needs of the child in one of these institutions. What plans do the government have to perhaps decentralize to a larger extent the homes for retarded children?

I realize of course the problems that there are with re~ard to trainin~ nnd staff and this sort of thing. But I would like to hear the minister on this whole aspect of 1501

Mu~li '1, 1(171 PK - 3 perhaps decentralizing the homes for retarded children and other homes as well. 'I would also like to ask the minister, Mr. Speaker, what the situation is in respect of the homes which are run by the churches, the Agnes Pratt, St. Patrick's and these homes? Do they come under the overall supervision of the minister under this act or under the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation Act, 1973? Do these homes come under hie supervision or are they more or less left entirely to the supervision of the churches or groups concerned?

I understand that in all of these cases or most if not all of these cases,. there is a guarantee by the government, a guarantee with regard to occupancy. The government guarantees ninety­ eight percent guarantee of occupancy,which means of course that these groups can go into the field.They should be lauded for going into this field,and the government agree to pick up the cost (it is sort of a built-in subsidy).if necessary. I doubt if it is really necessary because these homes are all filled. AN HON. MEMBER: It is necessary. MR. ROWF. , W .N. It is necessary.

The government agree to not only pick up the cost in case the homes are not !ully occupied but also of course under various programmes,the Canada Assistance Plan,I p,uess the government agree to pay the difference between what a person in a home can pay and what the actual cost of the care of that person is. I do not see,as I say, any reference made to these homes in specific,but there is something here.

"any other institution in the province for the care of people, persons who by reason of a~e etc or for the accommodation of persons, which are designated by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council:' ls it the intention to have these designated? The minister can go into that as well. Also is it the intention of the government to continue this policy, which was started by the former administration,of allowing interested groups particulnr]y churches to get into this field? I thoup.ht it was a good policy.

Th,! churchc-R like in this day and 11.p,e to bl!' known for being 11ocinlly comic1ence ,to llnvP involvement in grent soci11.l fssuefl of the day and they ahoulcl be applnuclccl nnd lauded for thnt nnd of course, they are

March 6, 1973 Tape 486 PK - 4 trying to get into this type of thing aa well as other thin~s. Ia it the intention of the ~overnment to continue this policy or does the government feel.that perhaps a board, a non-denominational, non-partisan puhlic board should perhaps run these institutions or what? These are one or two questions which occur to me. I am briefly lookin~ at the bill. Mr. Speaker, undoubtedly we will have other questions when the bill goes through connnittee stage ~ clause by clause study. MR. J. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, I think I would have to say that it is with extreme regret that I have to stand up here today with this bill in the sense that the one thing I did not want to happen aria ~hich I had hoped would not happen,since my assuming office early in December, that of all the homes administered by this department and all the institutions that the one to be chosen a~ain is F.xon House. We have-been trying to work quietly to improve all aspects at Exon House.

A recent article, I should not say a recent article, about two months ago.singled out Exon House when I know that other information was available to the newspapers,but because it was Exon House it had to be printed. I can stand on my feet here and give this assurance to honourable members across the House,to honourable members on this side of the House, to the press, to the people whose children are in Exon House and to the people of thiR province; give me a chance to do somethin~ with F.xon House and leave it alone for a short while, p1~aRe. I cannot do ft when it is constantly in the news.

No matter what I do with Exon Houae, it is not going to be satisfactory hecause th~re is Rome wall built up on 1 it is impossible to do something that would be received as being adequate, and that is a sad situation. I know I am up against it. I know that one of my great failings, one of the very many but one of greatest when I leave office will be that P.xon House has not improved, because I feel genuinely that no matter what we do in ~xon House, it will still be open for discussion, such as we have had today,and that is unfortunat~.

So J would ask and I would ask in all ein- cerfty and non-politically and with no aenee of mnlir.P. 1503

March 6, 1973 Tape 487 IB-1 that Exon House be left. Give me an opportunity to do something in F.xon Hou111e. Now, we pre ently hav• • com111ittee,under the very able direction of Dr. Pottle and a group of other people who re looking at the programme at Exon House. It is my personal observation that there are three aspects of interest at Exon House and I would feel obliged to mention a few things in reply to the questions that have been posed and then I would hope that the matter would rest. There are three important aspects at Exon House or any like institution.

Number (1) is the administration of tbe building,of the physical plan, the supervision and administration of the building itself. That ie important. That ie one aspect of the situation. Number (2), there is the nursing care. That ia another important aspect of life at an institution of this nature, the care available for these children,from a nursing point of view. Number (3) - and these are not in order - is the prograllDlle or counseling service available to these children. Not only to these children but to the senior citizens in senior citizens homes.

I feel very strongly that se~ior citizens homes are homes for special care, not places where people go to spend their waning days and die quietly and peacefully without being in anybody's way. I think life for them should be pleasant. Indeed, our hope would be that some of these people may be able to leave alive rather thnn in a hox. If the proper type of rehabilitation fs introduced, I thtnk that thlR is certainly a possible way to extend the ~ood living to Ii fo thRt we would 1 ike to have them lead 11t these house11t and thr snmc for the children's homes.

That we would like to rehabilitate these people, there is no question about that. I do not think that this is just a home, a penitentiary where we take people and say 1 "here you are, now stay out of everybody's hair." We pay a few people a wage,which precludes gettinp, as competent personnel as we would like to have, Certainly, 150 11

March 6, 1973 Tape 487 IB-2 there are not that many available in special fields of this nature, We say, "keep them away from everybody. Keep them out of everybody's hair. We do not want to hear about them,." little more is done for them. That is a hocking situation. We certainly do not intend to have that situation occur at this home.

Our hope ia to await the report from the committee looking into the programme and to attempt within the limitations of a provincial budget to provide a satisfactory, all-round situation of the administration of the building, the nursing care and the programme of counseling care in Exon Rouse and indeed in other such houses as they may develop from time to time. We mentioned rumblings and rumors of bad morale and so on and so forth. Well, I have not made my start yet on the building,mainly because I do not intend to act in haste. I have to look at all aspects of life down there.

When the time comes.as the report from Dr. Pottle becomes available,then we are ~oing to make certain moves,if necessary,to improve life at Exon llouse. I would say that a good use for the home would be as a day school centre as well, for children who are mentally retarded. Certainly, there is a lot of merit in that. We are going to introduce '• the system of two superintendents, one at Exon House and one at Water Street,instead of one superintendent taking care of both buildings. This has been approved and we now have the position up for classification.

We intend to move the educable and trainable, concentrated at Exon House, and the noneducable and nontrainable mostly at the Water Street Home but some of them unfortunately will have to be at Exon House. So, we intend to do some rearrangement with the clients of both pomes so as to provide the maximun benefit of life in these homeR for them. We are committed to a programme of rehabilitation in Exon House. Unfortunately you do not build a home,as you would not build a school unless there is a need for it,and the need for one is su~gested hy a prograTll!le.

Unfortunately, we are stuck with a building, many times and then we say,let us fill it. What are we going to dol This is not the way that I like to operate. I like to say, "What do we need?" If there is a need showf.ng, you 1505

March 6, 1973 Tape 487 I!-3 expand to fill a vaccum, identify the need and then expand to fill it. Now, it is pretty simple politically to run around thi• province and to set up homes in every nook and cranny in view of a forthcoming election. That is not the way that it is going to be done either. It is going to be done on the basis of need. Now, I find myself in the very unique and unenviable position with the mentally and physically handicapped people in the province,of not knowing who my clients are and believe me, that is an unenviahle position.

I reported to this honourable House during the inquisition last week that this inventory of the physically and many mentally handicapped would he overcome. T have a great sense of pity for the8e people. i have had many letters croAA my desk aince laat December, on the need for senior cit1?.ens homes in various areas but eap~cially on the need for the care of mentally handicapped children and adults.

On Saturday past,in Corner Brook, the Premier and I met with an individual _- believe it or not, he cares too - with an individual who had a child who was retarded and had some problems and we discussed the problem with that person. I have received, as I said, many letters. There is a great need for expansion of facilities for the mentally retarded but not only for the mentally retarded children. There is a great need there but there is also a need for the middleaged and older people who are also inflicted with mental retardation. First, I have to idP.ntify my clicnte]c.

By rou~h estimates, I had been Jed to believe that there are some two to three hundred physically handicapped,and two to three hundred mentRlly handicapped in and around Corner Brook, within a thirty mile radius. I do not know that,but these are the rough figures that I am given. Again I presume that honourable memhers can appreciate that one js unable to work unless one can identify the clients with which he is working. I can say here nnd now that we are giving consideration to establishing a school 1506

March 6, 1973 Tape 487 IB-4 on the West Coast tor mentally retarded children. We are giving consideration to it. There are right now in numbers,on the waitin~ list there are approximately,by the laat rough eatimate,about 135 people waiting to get into Exon Rouse, Let us aay we had a home of 130 people,at about $9,000 per peraon, per year. You are talking about an investment of some $1,120,000 per year,for a home to accommodate 130 people. So these cannot be thrown around for the sake of erecting a home. A lot of thought has to be given to it, You are talking about an awful lot of money.

Where best can it serve the need? We have to, as I say, identify the people first.and then attempt to regionalize these homes. I agree that the Province of Newfoundland does not extend from one end of the Avalon Peninsula to the other, We respect that,as a government. We talked about senior citizens homes expansion. Well, I think honourable members are aware that what I like to call phase three,which was the recent announcement of a senior citizens home at Grand Banks , St, Anthony and Lewisporte and 1507

March 6, 1973 Tape 110. 488 Pagel - r,RW Mr. Roul!lee.nu. I can now announce that we have also approved a home for Stephenville Crossing, to accommodate some fifty to sixty people.so that is the fourth and last home that has been committed by this government in this phase of its activity. We are now prepared to go back to the drawing board ae a group (We have a committee studying this) and look at the possibility of establishing senior citizens homes in various other areas of the province. But again it has to be established on a need basis.

So the hon. member for Bell Island can rest assured, we are looking into the expansion of f~cil­ ities both for the physically and mentally handicapped. We ~re going to do it in our own time. We are going to do it on the basis of good ·judgment and on the basis of study. We feel at present that the four homes that are now going to be built at Grand Bank, at Lewisporte, at St. Anthony and at Stephenville Crossing are adequate for the moment. MR. NEARY: What about Grand Falls? Is that underway? MR. ROUSSEAU: Grand Falls is underway and should be open within a year.

The steel is down, -the basic construction is there and I am going out to see it and meet with them in the very near future. Within a year that should be well underway. Gander is ready for opening within the month. Corner Brook is functioning and has been increased. MR. NEARY: They are both on file. MR. ROUSSEAU: That is good, because I have some bad neus for the honourable member in a minute that I would also like for him to take credit for. 1he honourable member has taken credit for everythin~ else,so he might as well Lnkc the - MR. NEARY: (lnn11d!blC'). MR, ~OlJSS~AU: A couple of minulee, a couple of minutes.

That phase 1508

March 6, 197~ Tape no. 488 Paga 2 Mr. Rousaeau. would be what I would call Phase 2, the Gander, Grand Falls and Corner Brook institutions. Phase 3, I would suggest, are the four we have juat mentioned. We have some other areas across the provincewhere we feel there may well be a need for a aenior citizens home. We have had representations from various areas of the province. We are sitting down n01,1, we will take a look at this. We have to look at the situation. AN HON. MEMBER: How about Springdale? MR.

ROUSSEAU: I have had representations from Springdale and I have had very serious representations from Botwood, Bonavista Peninaula, a number of them. I do not like to mention them all because I am going to miss some,but we have had a number of enquiries. As far as we are concern ,ed, the government, right now is that Phase 3, as I call it, is finished, Anything else now has to go back to government for approval.

We extended the four that we said we were going to build, We lived up to our commitment in this repesct, We do not intend to start playing games with the people in the sense that you are going to get one or,no, you are not going to get one. When the times comes, if this is approved, they will get it, The Harbour Lodge,to the best of my knowledge, the supplies that were down there are now being put to good use. As a matter of fact, a lot of the supplies remained at the home, others of the supplies are being used in other areas. I do not have the exact location of each television set.

They are being put to use, They have not been sold and there is no skulduggery involved. Honesty is the by-word with this government, You asked me the question: Is Harbour Lodge fully occupied? No, it is not quite and that is because certain rooms in Harbour Lodge are now being used as offices until a side room is renovated for office space. As soon as that room is prepared, which is any day now, for use as office space, then there will be more rool!IR available. 1509

March 6 , 19 7 3 fll1t. NEARY: MR. ROUSSF.AU: Mil. NEARY: Tape no, 488 Pag