LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 12 May, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MAD AM SPEAKER, Hon . M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presen t ing Repo rts by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture and Heritage Resources . HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you , Madam Speaker. I have a Ministerial Statement.

Madam Speaker , it gives me great pleasure to rise today, on Manitoba 's birthday, and note the presence of young adults and ch il dren in the galle ry and throughou t this building. The significance of an Open House at the Legislature for youth today is quite obvious, Madam Speaker . Today, we celebra te, as a province , our heritage and our future . This celebration is rooted in a proud and rich tradition of history and hope . Mani tobans come from a hundred different nations, a hundred different histories . Each of our forefathers and foremothers selected a special part of Manitoba and put down roots .

Each of us select today a part of Mani toba and put down roots. Each of us select today a particula r part of our heritage that we highlight as being integral to the cultural identity of our province . Out of this diversity, Manitoba has grown , changed and flourished. It is no coincidence that Manitoba Day falls in " Multicul tural Week, " given the special roots of all the citizens of th is province and the ethn ic diversity that truly is Manitoba .

And, out of this diversity, Madam Speaker, will come our futur e - a future that will be framed by what we do now, and a future that will be orchestrated by the young peop le here today . A n umber of event s have been planned today to celeb rate our past, present and future and to justly recogn ize Manito ba 's birthday . Earlie r this mont h, Madam Speake r, my colleague , the Honour able Jerry Storie, Minis ter of Education, and I, sent Manitoba Day kits to all schools , public libraries , recreation centr es and regional offices .

These kit s included activit ies fo r you th and acti vitie s fo r communities to celeb rat e M anito ba' s hist or y a nd heritage. Th ey included lists of Manitob a bo oks, Manitoba films, a herita ge quiz, a calen dar of herita ge events for the month of May, and a f act sheet o n Manitoba 100 years ago. Today, Madam Speaker, is Manitoba 's 117th birthday. We have opened the doors of the Legislature to youth , and I was pleased to welcom e earlier thi s hour some 1,500 you th who have j oined us thi s afternoo n. We have planned a full program for our visitors today, Madam Spe aker.

We have already delighted in some of the performers - Chuck McCandless , K ate Ferris , Tawny Ross and the group " K.A.T.S." (Kids Ad vancing Toward Stardom) , as well as the Kelvin High School Choir. Our guests have been greeted by Manitoba youth dressed in heritage costumes and can now look forward to a performance by students of Actors' Showcase of "Dr.

Barnado 's Pioneers" (A play by the Manitob a Theatre Centre Director , Rick McNair) ; Brian Richardson telling Manitoban stories in the Legislative Library ; a showing of Manitoban films ; a media wor kshop put on by Information Services ; displays in the Pool of the Black Star on Manitoba's heritage and multic ultural ism; and visits to MLA 's off ices.

And in con junction with Manitoba Day celebrations , I am also pleased to note that tonight the Manitoba Government and the National Film Board of Canada will be co-hosting the world premiere of " lkwe " - the first part of the four-part drama , " Daughters of the Country " produced by Norma Bailey and filmed entirely in Man itoba . This series tells the story of the Metis people of Western Canada through the stories of four Metis women , and was made possible , in part , by the MGEA through the Manitoba Jobs Fund which contributed $500,000 toward its production .

As well , Madam Speaker, throughout the month of May, I am pleased to announce an exhibition of the recently acquired Jackson Beardy Print Collection . Cultural Resources purchased the prints from the estate of the artist, and we have just recently had them conserved and they make a handsome addition to the collection of Jackson Beardy 's art that we already possess. These recent additions, some 20 prints, will be on display in the foyer of the Provincial Archives building at 200 Vaughan Street for the entire month.

Finally, Madam Speaker, I am pleased to announce that tomorrow evening, the Premier and I will be hosting a Citizenship Court here in the Legislative Building where we will be welcoming 40 new Canadians as citizens of Canada . Manitoba Day, Madam Speaker, is a time to celebrate our distinctive cultu ral heritage , and I am proud to acknowledge the visitors in our gallery today . The youth here today are the future leaders and constituents of this great province . In opening our doors to you , we are welcoming you to the future and acknowledging your contr ibutions to the pres ent fibr e of our communities .

We are commit ted to sharing with you our heri tage, our culture and o ur d iver sities . Togethe r w e will make a g reat pro vince where our root s and our hop es interweav e in the richnes s of our land. I would ask all members, Mada m Speaker, of the Legislature t o j oin with me in welco ming our guests to this House. 1931 Thank you . MADAM SPEAKER: The H ono ura ble Leader of the Opposition .

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am pleased, on behalf of all my colleagues, to join with the Minister in welcoming all of our visitors here to the Legislature on Manitoba Day. Birthdays are always a very happy occasion and this is a happy event, celebrating the 117th Anniversary of Manitoba's entry into Confederation.

It's a day for people of all ages and all conditions in Manitoba to commemorate, and to commemorate the memory of that happy event in which we entered Confederation; from the seniors who built this great province of ours, who contributed of their time and energy and talent to pioneer the growth and development of our province, to the youth, many of whom are with us here today to mark the occasion, because they not only will inherit that which has been built and left for them as a legacy by our forebearers , but they'll also provide the energy and the enthusiasm to ensure that our province continues to grow and develop for the future, the bright future that all of us want to have in this Manitoba of ours.

And I wish for them many challenges and many opportunities to contribute, each in his and her own way, to the better quality of life that all of us want in Manitoba's future - a better quality of personal life, a better quality of economic life.

I'm also pleased, as well, Madam Speaker, to be able to welcome some special people, those disabled persons who are with us for the first time, joining in in this celebration and this opportunity to view the Legislature in action, who are here in our translation booth today and, hopefully , will have an opportunity for full participation in future, as every one of our members of society is able to come and view the proceedings of the Legislature.

We are pleased that they are here to celebrate Manitoba Day because we know that they deserve equality of opportunity, and we look forward to an equiil partnership with them in the future growth and development of our province . So I welcome all of our visitors, on behalf of my colleagues in the Opposition Caucus of the Legislature. I look forward to enjoying with them the celebrations that have been planned, the entertainment that will prevail today in the Legislature and, particularly, in celebrating in many different ways, our happy Manitoba birthday.

So I join with all in saying Happy Birthday, Manitoba - 117 years young, and many more good years to go and many more things to look forward to in our province. Thank you very much. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. G. DOER: Yes, Madam Speaker. I'd like to table the Annual Report, 1985-86, of the Department of Crown Investments. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Madam Speaker . I would beg leav~ to table the Annual Report of the Public Trustee for the year 1985-86. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . .

Introduction of Bills . . 1932 ORAL QUESTIONS Labour legislation - review of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, yesterday in question period the Premier indicated that he was concerned about a $3.2 million lawsuit that has been lodged against an 18-year-old woman, Jennifer Campbell, who had dared to ask fellow workers some questions about the position of the union and the role of the company in a labour dispute at SuperValu. The First Minister said he would investigate this matter because he was concerned about this happening under Manitoba's labour laws.

I wonder if the Premier has had time to look into it and can report to us. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I've had some further advice which has just come in and I want to peruse that. Budget - increased taxation MR. G. FILMON: A further question for the First Minister. We learned today that a local advertising agency is closing its business because of what they have termed to be "the harsh business climate," which has been created by this NOP Government.

Will the First Minister now admit that his devastating budget, with the obscene increases in taxation that it has imposed upon all Manitobans, is now driving business out of Manitoba and destroying our opportunity to attract investment here? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, obviously, the Leader of the Opposition is referring to a newspaper report and a letter circulated by a firm called Stringham and Grant Tandy, and I gather their major reason for removal from the province is that there was a change of government federally.

They lost what has been traditionally a Liberal field of business from the former Liberal Government; apparently are not receiving contracts from the present Federal Government, therefore, their accounts have dried up, which I think is a good indication to any private entrepreneur, don't depend solely or exclusively or, in the main, upon government business because governments do change from time to time . New policies to attract investment MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, it would have been better if the Premier had called the agency and demonstrated a real concern about the reasons why they are leaving.

Because, if he had done so, as I did -(lnterjection)- MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question?

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 MR. G. FILMON: .. . he would have found out , in fact, Madam Speaker , that it was because many of them lost most of their private sector clients who were being removed from this province .

Madam Speaker, my question for the Premier is: In view of the fact that this particular agency has said, and I quote, "that the province 's payroll tax and its high rate of personal and corporate income tax is the reason for the flight of capital, and the reason for the business failures in this province and the closing of businesses," will he now bring in new policies that will endeavour to attract investment instead of destroying investment in jobs for our province 's future? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I'm surprised that the Leader of the Opposition would endorse those kinds of comments about loss of investment when there have been, in fact, 7,000 more full-time jobs , April this year as opposed to April last year ; that our investment growth projections by not just Department of Industry , Trade and Technology, but by banks and by other major calculating, forecasting institutions indicate that there 'll be far larger investment growth, economic growth, job creati on growth in the Province of Manitoba than, by average, across Canada.

So I would suggest the Leader of the Opposition probably should research his comments and statistics a little bit more closely before he depends upon the word of a firm that has apparently depended largely on liberal larg esse in the past . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , last week the Investment Dealers Association said that it was our business climate, and particularly that budget, that devastating budget that his government brought in that was the problem . Businesses intimidated by government staff MR. G. FILM ON: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter of Culture , Heritage and Recreation .

Is it the policy of her government to have staff threaten and intimidat e any businesses who try to tell the truth and try and advise peop le of the adverse policies of this government being the reason for their business closure ? I quote, Madam Speaker, the words of one bureaucrat, who I understand was from her department, who said to this particular agency: "My Minister will have to come down hard on you if this is brought up in the Legislature," the bureaucrat told Stringham , the president of the agency.

Is tha t the practice of this government to have bureaucrats threaten and intimidate businesses who try and tell the truth as to why they're leaving this province? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, since the Leader of the Opposition was allowed to commence by way of

preamble which responded to my earlier question I would like to deal with that

preamble, because the Leader of the Opposition very astutely avoided quoting from the lnvesters Dealers Association the opening remarks in the report which reads: "Economic growth in Manitoba has outpaced the national average in each of the past three years , and the trend will continue in 1987, and will exceed the national average by a wide margin ." MR. G. FILMON: Given that that document says that it's because of public investment and that private investment is drying up, will the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation now answer my question? MR. H. ENNS: He answered the

preamble, now get to the question. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture and Heritage Resources. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speaker , that question really doesn't deserve an answer. Let me do as the Premier has done and reject entirely the assumptions underlying the question s of the Leader of the Opposition . They are just not reflective of the situation and not taking into account the situation with respect to companies , such as, the one that the Leader of the Opposition is referring to. He should get the facts and he should know them.

He should ascertain how many contracts, in fact, that particular company submitted a project for; he should understand the situation facing that company when it lost a major client in the change of government in the last election ; and he should know, Madam Speaker, that this government has a policy of fair and equitable treatment for all advertisers and all companies in this field, and has followed a tender process and a proposal process that is fair and is equitable.

Madam Speaker, I think it should be noted that advertising closures have been noted elsewhere, and are attributable to a change in the whole question of how much advertising companies are doing, and how much advertising governments are doing, and it should be noted that this government, consistent with what members opposite have called for, have tried to streamline our advertising procedures and to, in fact , become very efficient and cost effective in that area . MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Minister denying that a senior bureaucrat in her department, a particular Assistant Deputy Minister, threatened and intimidated this company because they told the truth in a letter and said, and in fact, . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . MR. G. FILMON: . and in fact this bureaucrat said MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . May I remind the honourable member that it is not good parliamentary practice to communicate written allegations to the House and then to ask Ministers either to confirm or deny them. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I have spoken with the firm involved and I am asking the Minister whether she is denying the fact that one of her senior bureaucrats phoned the principal of the firm and, in fact, threatened and intimidated them about the 1933

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 information they put in the letter, saying: "My Min ister will have to come down hard on you if this is brought up in the Legislature." MADAM SPEAKER: May I continue with the particular Citation of Beauschene 362, which says: "It is the member's duty to ascertain the truth of any statement before he brings it to the attention of Parliame nt." MR. G. FILMON: Will this Min ister have the courage to tell us whether or no t her senior bureaucrat thr eatened this firm? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Sp eak er, I am certainly prepared to look into the exact exchange of di scussion that went on between a member of my staff and a member of this particular com pany. However, if a member of my staff has only done what has been said here tod ay, which is to refute any statement that the closing of this company is the result of an unfavourable business climate, and to clearly state that that is just not true and, in fact, rubbish, then I don't have any problems with the actions on the part of my staff. Forest fire situation - investigation of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Emerson.

MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker , my question is to the Min ister of Natural Resources. The forest fire situation is extremely critical tod ay, as it has been in the last week, and the Wallace Lake fire and the Woodridge fire created millions of dollars of personal damage, as well, to the people of Manitoba in terms of the fire. Can the Min ister indi cate whether his people have investigated the cause of the fire and can report what the cause of the fire was, of these two fires? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

Yes, the two fires in question are under investigation. The Woodridge fire is suspected to have been caused by an arsonist and it is being investigated by the department and by the RCMP. In the case of the Wallace Lake fire all ind ications are at this time that the fire was caused by lightning starting in an area that was logged over in the previous year. There was some logging activity in the area some miles away from the site.

We had a response crew in within 15 minu tes, followed up by a water bomber within 50 minu tes, and in fact joined subsequently by the equipment and men from Abitibi-Price who were at a logging site some miles away from the point at which the fire originated. But we, at this point, feel that it was caused by lightning, but the staff is in the field, as well, investigating possibilities of other sources of origin. Fire towers - unmanned during fire situation MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, to the same Min ister .

Can the Min ister ind icate how many fire towers have not been manned during the past weeks, during the critical time of the fire situation because of financial constraints? HON. L. HARAPIAK: It's interesting to see the Member for Emerson following today the trail blazed yesterday by the Member for Lakeside suggesting that in some way it is the matter of allocation of financial resources which is at the root of this issue. Cle arly, Madam Spe aker, the use of towers for observation is but one component of fire detection.

The mem bers opposite should be well aware that there is electronic surveillance for fires; there is aerial surveillance for that matter, and there is indeed staffing of personnel in towers. I want to ind icate, Madam Speaker, for the mem bers opposite that under normal conditions, the crews, the fire ranger crews, the helitac crews, the firetac crews, are not normally in place until the end of May or the beginning of June.

Budgets are struck on that basis, but clearly when conditions were changed, we have the Alert Response System, wherein the activity of the department gears up to the conditions in the field, and that clearly was what was happening in this case, and I reject categorically any kind of a notion that there was not an adequate system of surveillance or, indeed, a response to the fire. Firetac team reduction MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, to the same Min ister. Can the Min ister indic ate how many firetac teams have been reduced in his department in the last few years due to financial constraints? HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, there has been a reduction in the current year of the num bers in the crews. The firetac crews have been reduced from five to four; the same is true with the helitac crews. But it's imp ortant to note, Madam Speaker, that in fact these normal ly, as I said earlier, would not be in position until the beginning of June. These were in position; they responded to the fire within 15 min utes of it being detected.

Let me point out furth er, Madam Speaker , if the members opposite want to look at the question of allocation of resources, the last year that the mem bers opposite formed government, when the Member for Lakeside was the Min ister of Natural Resources, the allocation for fire suppression was $1 .5 million which is approximately 20 percent of that allo cated this year. Wallace Lake cottage owners - availability of alternate lake MR. A. DRIEDG ER: Madam Speak er, a fina l supp lementary to the same Mini ster.

Will the Min ister consider making an alternate lake, like Lake Caribou, available to the people who lost their cottages at Wallace Lake, or how is he planning to deal with these people who have lost their cottages and in 1934

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 many cases their life savings when the fire swept through there? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , clearly, there is a loss to the individuals that is regrettable. There is a loss to the people of Manitoba in terms of the forest resources, the habi tat, tha t is regrettable. So all Manitobans share in the loss from these fires, but specifically, there is the loss of those who had cottages on site at Wallace Lake . As I flew over the area yesterday, I had the opportunity to see the charred ruins . There are some, I believe, 13 cottages that were spared.

There is no indication of the extent to which there is damage for those . I want to point out for all members, indeed, that there are cottage lots available elsewhere in the province . We do have locations in which lots can be obtained by draw; we have other locations that I am prepared to table, ind eed , I think were tabled during the course of my Estimates, where there has not been sufficient response on the basis of a draw , and they can be awarded on a first come, first served basis. So clearly there are cottaging opportunities available, Madam Speaker, at alternate locations.

What we want to do, Madam Speaker , at this point, though we appreciate the loss incurred , is we yet have to deal with the matter of the fire. So let us all dedicate our efforts and our time, as the people in the field, the fire fighters in the field, the pilots , the people on the shovels, the peop le on the fire equipment, the skidders, let us all dedicate our effort and time now to putting out the fire . Those other matters I think can be dealt with in due course. Seven Regions Health Centre - investigation re improprieties MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone . MRS. C.

OLESON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Health and it concerns the Seven Regions Health Centre and the long-standing controversy between members of that hospital board and the community of Gladstone .

Since the agreement for conciliation, which was reached with the Minister and myself and that board when we met in March, has not been met and things have come to light which make that controversy even more serious, in that there are allegations concerning the deaths of people at the Third Crossing Manor, could the Minister assure the House and the people of that hospital region that he will investigate the matter to be sure that there were no improprieties at that centre? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I've already checked into this.

As my honourable friend knows, we've offered assistance to the groups; they've refused it. According to the act, legally I cannot interfere as Minister of Health if there's not financial difficulties or if the standards aren 't lowered or unless they resign . Now, as far as the point that was made, the accusation that was made , I'm told that there is nothing to it at all, the medical examiner made a study at the time and there was nothing unusual that came out of it. MRS. C. OLESON: Madam Spea ker, to the same Minister.

Matters , the way they are now standing , that board finds it very diffic ult to operate and I'm wonde rin g ii the Ministe r would assure us that he will tak e some steps; or what steps will he take to assure us that the health care of the people that are under the care of those facilities , which are under the auspices of tha t boar d; will he make sure that everythin g is being done proper ly there? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Madam Speaker, this would give us the opportunity to take over for the time being, anyway, until everything is straighten ed out, if that was done .

If the standards are lowered for any reason at all, then we can act so we are monitoring it very closely. Unfavourable business climate MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Finance. Peter Stringham, the president of Stringham and Grant Tandy did indeed send a letter to his clients, including the government, I might add, indicating that his business was closing because of the unfavourable business climate .

But nowhere in the letter was there any indication, or direct criticism, of indeed the government for its taxation program, that data came about later. But, for some reason, this evoked an outraged comment from a member of the Civil Service which said: "It is not an unfavourable business climate , there are just a lot of corporations moving out." Would the Minister please explain to the House how you can have a favourable business climate when, according to staff of the government, there are a lot of corporations moving out? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker . It's regrettable that particular company has chosen to not continue to do business in the Province of Manitoba, but it has been something that's been well­ known in the advertising field for the last while that company was in difficulty as a result of losing a lot of Federal Government contracts that moved to another agency in the City of Winnipeg . I would just suggest to the member that she look beyond that one particular article, or that one particular issue, to get an answer to her question in terms of the investment climate in this province and the activities of business .

There are a number of businesses that have expanded, have decided to locate in the Province of Manitoba and, at the same time, there are some, like this particular example, this Liberal ad agency that has decided not to continue business. 1935

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 If she would look, also in today's pap er, she would know of the announc ement of a company that's decided to locate and to start its activities in the Province of Manitoba. R-Plus Ins ulated Glass, it's opened a $1 .1 million plant in Manitoba because of the favourable business climate in our province, creating some 20 jobs in Manitoba. Loss to business community when large firms move out of province MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplem entary question to the Min ister of Finance.

Has the Department of Finance unde rtaken a study to evaluate the kinds of loss to the small busi ness communi ty, such as, advertising agencies, which we seem to have lost four or five; law firms and accounting firms when large firms like Richardson Greenshields, ICG, Versatile, Canadian Indemnity move out of the province? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Madam Speak er, I don't know where the mem ber gets her information. I am not aware that Versatile has decided to leave the province. The cont rary is true, that Versatile is in the process of increasing its activities and increasing its jobs in the Province of Ma ni toba.

She must be getting her information from the federal member of Parliament for Fort Garry who has indicated he was wrong with respect to Versatile and its activities. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Thank you, Madam Speak er. I .. Advertising industry dependent on government in Manitoba MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for River Heights had a further supple mentary? MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A final suppleme nta ry, thank you, Madam Spea ker.

Can the Finance Minister in form the House if there is, indeed, any longer a viable advertising indus try, not dependent upon government work, at either level, present in Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, Madam Speaker . Multi-year budget - interest costs MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker . Madam Speaker, the provincial debt, in five short years of NDP Gover nment, per capital debt, has in creased from $4,000 to over $9,000 per capita.

Madam Speaker, by the time many of the blessed youth in attendance here today, and those not in attendance, reach their emplo yment years, their share of the provincial debt will be approaching $20,000 per person. Madam Speak er, my question to the Minis ter of Finance: Will the Minister of Finance today lay before this House, all Manitobans, including the youth of this province, will he lay before us a multi- year budget so as to disclose how it is all of us, including the young people of this province, will be able to meet the int erest costs associated with those debts in the space of seven years?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just wonder what would happen if this government had follo wed the path of Conservative- mi nded governments in this country that reduced expenditur es in areas like health, education and job crea tion. What would that do for the opportunities for youth to get an education in our province at the present time if we would have followed that advice?

What would have happened if we would have followed the advice that Conservatives have suggested in terms of job creation and not put the kind of efforts into job creation to the point that Manitoba has the largest job creation record , the best job creation record, in Canada, other than the central provinces? I wonder what that would do for the future of our children in the province, Madam Speaker. Youth employment MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, a supple mentary question to the Min ister.

What assurance can he give the youth of this province, those present and those not present, who, in due course, will want to contribute, so eagerly contribute, to the economic and social well-being of this province, that they will be able to enjoy the fruits of their own labours without having to contend with the captive massive debt that has been put on their shoulders by this government; what assurance can you give to the youth in the gallery that they will be able to enjoy the fruits of their own labours? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I can assure the youth of this province that this government will continue to work on behalf of youth, will continue to take the policies that economic and social development go hand in hand. We'll continue the policies that have shown that this province is a leader in terms of employment growth for young people in this countr y.

We'll not follow the kind of policies that have been adopted in other provinces which have not only increased unemployment, but have decreased expenditur es in the areas like health, education, univ ersities and, at the same time, in those Cons ervative provinces, Madam Sp eak er, you'v e seen the deficit in crease in provinces lik e Saska tchewan, Al berta, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. All of them who have followed those polic ies at the same time have seen incr eases in their deficits and their debt, Madam Speaker . 1936

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 Manitoba Crop Insurance - reseeding privilege deadlines MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Thank you , Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. This morning on the way into the city , Mada m Speak er, I literally saw some of my neighbours farms go by. If this wind keeps prevailing there are going to be some crops that are going to be blown out of the ground.

Would the Minister of Agriculture make sure that his department, the Department of Crop Insurance will make sure that the farmers are all aware of their reseeding privileges and the deadlines that go with it? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON . B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , I thank the honourable member for raising that question . The matter of soil degradation and soil erosion is of great concern to I'm sure all Manitobans and all Canadians. Indeed, we certainly will be alerting our crop insurance co rporation to make their information available to farmers.

But, as well , Madam Speaker , we will be continuing our efforts in the area of soil conservation , cooperation with farmers in tree planting and trying to lessen the kind of soil erosion by concret e examples of good conser vation measures across this province. Legislative Building - check for PCB contamination MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question to the Minister responsible for Government Service s. Madam Speaker, was th is Legislat ive Building checked this mornin g for PCB contamination? Why was it done?

What was the result of the test and was anyone 's health put at danger in this building? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I am not aware of any PCB tests being conducted in the Legislative Building this morning . Careerstart - rejection of Antler River Recreation District MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, I have a new question to the Minister responsible for Careerstart.

Madam Speaker, I've just received a notification that the Antler River Recreation District have been rejected on their application for student employment, for the young people of this province, for very meaningful work for the summer. A program, Madam Speaker, that received support last year under Careerstart. Could the Minister of Employment Services tell this Legislature and the young people of this province why he 's r ejec ted job opportunities for people in the southwest under this government? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security. HON. L.

EVANS: Madam Speaker , I reject totally the honourable member's assertion that somehow or other this government has not being concerned with jobs for young people in our province. Madam Speaker, we are blessed in this province with a very fine group of young people. I might add, Madam Speaker , that thousands of young people in this province have been given jobs th is summer because of our Careerstart '87 Program, thousands and thousands of young people have been given jobs .

All they have to do is to go around this good province of ours , from east to west, north to south and they'll find their friends, indeed members of the ir family will have jobs thanks to Careerstart . The fact is, Madam Speaker, that we try to accommodate as many people as we can, not everybody can be accommodated. We can't give every organization that applies a tota l amount of money that they might like, but we do our very best to distribute it widely and fairly so that we can employ as many people on interesting career pattern jobs that the young people of our province want.

I'll say this, Madam Speaker, in conclusion, you can compare what goes on in Manitoba , in term s of jobs for our young people, with any other province in this country , and you'll find that we're . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Arthu r. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, to the Minister responsible for Employment Services .

In view of the fact that I have a lette r here telling us that these people have been rejected on job employment opportunities , will the Minis ter live up to the word that he's just given everyone, and see that there are jobs provided in the recreat ional district to which I've referred? HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, if the member would take the time to examine what's going on in his own constituency, and many of the towns in his riding in Southwestern Manitoba, he'll find that there are hundreds of jobs in his own area , in my area of Southwestern Manitoba, thanks to this program.

As I said, Madam Speaker, we take a back seat to nobody in this country of ours. We not only have Careerstart, Madam Speaker, but we have Student Temporary Employment Program in government. We have job programs for their northern youth people and, indeed, we have a special component under Training for Tomorrow - a multimillion dollar program for the young people of this province. So, Madam Speaker, as I said, although we can't say yes, to everybody, I'm satisfied that we have indeed, created thousands of jobs this summer for our young people.

Child Abuse - instances of re-abuse MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. 1937

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . Madam Speaker, the Minis ter of Community Services and the Premier both refused to look into a situation in which infant children had been returned to high-risk situations in two instances and, in both instances, killed. Today we learned that abuse cases are up 30 percent over last year, that there were six deaths last year, and that the num ber of reabused cases have risen to 41 from 18.

Would the Min ister look into these cases, as she did not in the previous instance last week, investigate them and determine the reasons why these cases of re-abuse have incr eased so substantially over last year? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mini ster of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Spea ker, I'm happy to comment about the child abuse situation because it has been this government that's taken on the issue of child abuse and is building a multi-discipli nary system that's able to deal with it.

With regard to the individual worker in an agency, this government, my department, has an ongoing process of reviewing with the agencies their polic ies and procedures, and I have instructed my staff to not leave any stone unturned with regard to a particular individual. With regard to the overall question of in crease of child abuse. It's true, common right across the count ry, indeed the continent, the detection of child abuse cases is steadily going up and we attribute that to the very aggressive stance we've been taking to getting child abuse cases reported.

But, Madam Speaker, the figure that is being referred to is a gross misunderstanding of what the meaning of the term "other " in the statistical listing means. In fact, "other " refers to the status of the child at the end of the year, and it includes a great num ber of dispositions of children. Childr en who are still under apprehension at the end of the year, or who are permanent wards in care, or who turn 18 prior to year end; it does not refer to reabuse.

I will, later in the Estimates this after noon, be tabling the report on last year's child abuse statistics and will be prepared to go into gr eat detail at that time. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , the Min ister has built a system in which we've just received an external review report which reco mmends a massive overhaul of the system which she built. Madam Speaker , these statistics obviously come from the department's annual report for last year. Would she table the full annual report, at least a photocopy of same, because it must have been prepared by now in order for these statistics to be available?

Would she table that during the Estimates of her department today? Community Services Annual Report - tabling of HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , the annual report for the department is on a fiscal year, '85-86, and ours was in fact tabled last year, comparable to the same time period that the other departmental reports are tabled this year. We would, in the normal course of events, table these statistics in the next year's Session. However, because of the importance of this issue and because of the high concern about it, we are prepared to make available those statistics now and to go through them and give a full

interpretation. Madam Speaker , when the people who did the report on child abuse were asked about the system, they identified the fact that this is a problem clear across the count ry, and that in most respects Manitoba is well ahead of other provi nces in their building of an appropria te response and treatment system. I think it's that context that we should look at the child abuse program. Judges' pay and benefits - investigation of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. J. WALDING: Madam Speaker , my question is to the Tr easury Bench.

In the past, investigations into the pay and benefits of members of the Legislature have been carried out by members of the judici ary. My question is: Has consideration been given by the government to appointing an MLA to look into the pay and benefits of Judges? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Mini ster of Ind ustry, Tr ade and Technolo gy. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Not that I'm aware of, Madam Speaker . The Manitoba Agriculture Producers Organization Funding Act - introduction of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FIND LAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Agriculture.

For more than a year the Minis ter has been requested to introduce legislation that will allow a volunt ary checkoff for general farm organization in the Province of Manitoba. And, given that KAP, less than a week ago, presented him with a draft bill, I would like to ask the Min ister if he's prepared to introduce this dra ft bill, The Manitoba Agriculture Producers Organi zation Funding Act; is he prepared to introduct that bill in this Session of the Legislature, Madam Speaker? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker , my honourable friend has been given a copy of that legislation. That legislation is currently under review by my department. When a decision by government is made as to whether or not this legislation is appr opriate, from a governmental point of view, we will be making our views public. 1938

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: I wish to seek leave of the House to be able to present the Report of the Commit tee of Sup ply. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave to revert to Presenting Reports by Standing Committees? (Agre ed) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . The Comm ittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, dir ects me to report the same, and asks leave to sit again.

Madam Speaker , I move, seconded by the Member for tn kster, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: Madam Speaker , I move, seconded by the Member for Elmwood, that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: The Hon. H. Harapiak for the Hon. J. Cowan; the Hon. M. Hemphill for the Hon. E. Kostyra; the Hon. J. Storie for the Hon. A. Mackling. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker , on a matter of House Business. I believe there's an inclination on the part of all members to dispense with Private Mem bers' Hour toda y, by leave, and continue on with the consideration of Estimates during the hour from five to six o'clock. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Is it the will of the House to dispense with Private Mem bers' Hour? (Agre ed) HON. J.

COWAN: As well, Madam Speaker , May 18 being a holiday, the House will not be sitting and there has been an arrangement agreed to that on May 19 , the Tuesday, we would sit, utilizing the normal Monda y hours on that Tuesday; in other words, from 1 :30 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. and from 8:00 p.m. to 10 :00 p.m., or the reafter, by leave. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) HON. J. COWAN: I move, Madam Speaker , seconded by the Min ister of Health, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with th e Honourable Member for Bu rrows in the Chair for the Depar tment of Commun ity Services; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of Education. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: Will the committee please come to order? We were on Financial Support for Schools. Is it the wish of the committee to remain on there, or do you want to move ahead? Mr. Min ister . HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, the members had asked for a whole series of information. The first issue was on the special levy mill rates. I have provided the members with the mill rates over the past five years.

I've also provided them with a sheet, which looks at not only the special levy mill rate, but the ESL as well as the total expenditures in education, breaks it down and says here's how much is being spent based on prope rty, netted after the rebates; which shows, I think interestingly enough, that since 1980, when 52 percent of the costs dir ected towards education came from pro perty , to the current situation where 41. 6 percent comes from property; so there has, in fact, been a sign ificant decrease in overall burden paid through the property tax regime.

Of course there is a concern that we're still too heavily reliant on property tax, and that is something we hope to be able to address over the coming years; but I'll pass that copy on to the Member for Roblin-Russell and also a copy for the Member for Fort Garry. The Member for Fort Garry raised the question about some detail in the Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund, and the explanation - I'll give the member a copy here - but basically it confirms, I believe, what the member suggested may have been the rationale for the formation of the subsidia ry.

A member raised a question about the reduction of a clinician position in child care and development and I believe I'd answered that before, I forgot. In fact, the position that is being elimi nated is not a clinician's position, it is in that area; but because of the increased capacity of our computer services, actually a word processor or a person working on the word processing equipment has been elimi nated and it was not a clinician's position. I belie ve that question was raised by the Mem ber for St. Vital.

There were a series of questions related to sub­ appropriation 3.(c), and I guess the first issue that needs 1939

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 to be clarified is Transpo rtation , which was identified as $13,800.00. Pardon me, it's identified as Grant Transfer Payment. Actually that was an error, and in fact that figure has subsequently been rolled into the Supply and Services figure . It was actually supplies, heating oil, that kind of thing; so that was an error from last year. The members also raised a series of questions about Other Expenditures and questions were asked about where the students came from.

At present, the amount identified in the Supplementary Estimates includes Falcon Beach School; and transportation for 10 students from Westview, on the west shore of Lake Manitoba, to Turtle River School; and up to 10 students from Otter Falls, on the Winnipeg River system, to Agassiz School ; so that accounts for some of the funding in that area . Finally, the fact of the matter is that of the reduction that you see in total expenditures from $242,000 to $167,000, $50,000 of those dollars were actually provided in (XVI) 3.(

a) because discussions have been going on and are going on with the school community about the possibility of transferring jurisdiction from the Department of Education to, for example, Agassiz School Division, so that was anticipated. Those negotiations are going on right now. If that transfer doesn't occur, then the funds, the $50,000 , would be encumbered from 3.(

a) and returned. But it is hoped that an agreement will be concluded in the next short while to have the school run by a school division rather than by the Departmen t of Education. So that really accounts for the sign ificant difference between the two figures . When we were talking yesterday, we had assumed that - actually we were describing that would account for only about $25,000 of that difference. I think those were the only questions that I had taken as notice. If there are any other questions out there, I'd be more than happy to respond. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. If I might, Mr. Minister, go back to 3.(

c) and just con firm the $50,000 figure in 3.(c). What you're saying is you've reduced the total figure by $50,000 because of the school being transferred back to the school division? HON. J. STORIE: That would be provided by grant to the school division, out of (XVI) 3.(a). MR. L. DERKACH: Which school division is that? HON. J. STORIE: It would probably be Agassiz, but it also could be Steinbach or Hanover or Frontier . There 's quite a possibility , I guess, of Frontier being involved. In fact, I think discussions have been held with Frontier in the past over that possibility. MR. L.

DERKACH: And if the transfer doesn't go through then? HON. J. STORIE: If the transfer doesn't go through, then those amount of funds would be encumbered and used in the normal way through the department operating the school. MR. L. DERKACH: So if the transfer doesn't go through , then we can expect this figure not to be $167,000 , but a few thousand over that? HON. J. STORIE: It would be adjusted . It would be shown as adjusted, I believe, next year by the $50 ,000 or some portion of that . MR. L.

DERKACH: Also, in the Grant Transfer Payment, it was indicated that this was an error and should have been included in the Supplies and Services. Now, my question is: If that figure of $13,800 is supposed to be included in the Supplies and Services, that boosts that figure up higher , what is the reduction then due to from $199,000 presently plus the $13,000 down to $103,000.00? HON. J. STORIE: I'm told, Mr. Chairpe rso n, the bottom line doesn 't change. I could give the member a new sheet which will show the new totals, and the explanatory notes are there as well. MR. L. DERKACH: Oh, I see.

So the transportation figure is $13,200 .00 ? HON. J. STORIE: Although in '87-88, you will see that they are all rolled in, that there is no such grant, that it shouldn 't have been there in 1986-87. MR. L. DERKACH: It shouldn't have been there? HON. J. STORIE: That's my understanding , yes. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, so should that figure have been then added to the 199,000.00? HON. J. STORIE: I believe that's the case , yes. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Minister, can you tell me what the reduction then is? What is it composed of? HON. J.

STORIE: It's composed of the $50,000 that we talked about, plus approx imately $25,000 based on the other items that I have already described , reductions in different areas and reduction in the number of students who are being transferred from unorganized territories. I believe it's some 20 students or something. MR. L. DERKACH: So the $50 ,000 figure would be included in that Supplies and Services area? HON. J. STORIE: And in the teacher 's salary. MR. L. DERKACH: Can I ask a question? Okay. The teacher's salary would also be included in that.

The professional fees, can I have an explanation of that figure , what that accounts for? 1940 HON. J. STORIE: Those would be teachers' salaries and I guess any additional aides that were hired and I guess the half-time kindergarten teacher.

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 MR. L. DERKACH: What number of staff? HON. J. STORIE: I believe it was 2.5. MR. L. DERKACH: Two-and-a-half plus . HON. J. STORIE: Two-and-a-half staff . MR. L. DERKACH: Two-and-a-half staff in total? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. L. DERKACH: Can I ask the Minister to check that figure again. HON. J. STORIE: It was 2.5 teachers , and it was actually 3.5 staff. There was a half-time secretary /teacher aide. I th ink, if you look at 100, it would be all principals then. MR. L. DERKACH: Okay , I think that fairly well explains that area.

I'd like to thank the Minister for the information which he has given us today. You know , it doesn't give us much opportunity to review it right now and pose any questions, but I would ask perm ission from the Chair, even if we passed this section, if we should have some questions on it at another day when we've had some time to peruse it, if he would allow those questions? MR. CHAIRMAN: I have no difficulty with that if it's the comm ittee's will? No objections? Okay. Did you say you'd like to pass Financial Support to Schools? MR. L. DERKACH: Not yet , no, Mr. Chairman , I have some more questi ons on it. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Okay, proceed. The Member for Roblin-Russe ll. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask the Minister some questions on the minor capital area for school divisions, and mino r capital in school divisions is used for repair work and, you know , th ings of a minor nature. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are now on 5.(aX1). HON . J. STORIE: Mr. Chairpe rson , just for the information of the member, the individual who - which one is it - 8.(b)? MR. CHAIR MAN: 8.(

b) or 8.(a). MR. L. DERKACH: We're talking about minor capital, Mr. Chai rman. We're not talking abou t major capital. HON. J. STORIE: It falls under that section, nonetheles s. MR. L. DERKACH: Is minor capital then included in the Financial Support or is it included in the major capital? It can 't be included in the capital? HON. J. STORIE: I'm not sure whether we're talking about, for example, minor capital - there's four diff erent areas of capital. One of them includes roof replacements and those kinds of things ; is that what we're talking about? MR. L.

DERKACH: I'm talki ng abou t the block of money that's alloc ated to school division s for the purposes of repair .. HON. J. STORIE: Buses , vocational equipment, those kind of things too? MR. L. DERKACH: No, repa ir of school facilities . There's a block of money allocated to school divisions. Now , I guess my question shou ld be - what appropriation is that particular . . . HON J. STORIE: It's (XV1) 8.(b)(2) is the area that it's in. MR. L. DERKACH: The 8.(

b) then . HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. L. DERKACH: So we can dea l with that another time. HON. J. STORIE: That would probab ly be easiest, when Mr. Frechette is here I think . MR. L. DERKACH: No problem ; I have no problem with that, we can deal with that later. Okay, if we deal with that later , t hen I'd like to go to the small schools grants that are given out to school divisions . If I might, Mr. Chairman , first of all, I'd like to ask the Minister what type of formula is used for arriving at the funding?

I noticed in the Annua l Repo rt that it says elementary schools are eligible for $4,000 plus $25 for every pupil in excess of 25 pupils; and secondary schools are $8,000 plus $25 for every pupil in excess of 25 pupils. But all small secon dary schools are defined as schools that have Grade 9 and over, but where the enrolment is less than 200 . In the rural areas, Mr. Chairman, some of our high schools may, in fact, just be around that 200. I think there are several high schools across the province that are just in the 200 or 205 pupil range . HON. J. STORIE: Do you have one in your area? MR. L.

DERKACH: I'm not sure, I really am not .

This is not a question based on my specific school division, but it's a concern that has come up through the associations about the fact that there is that cutoff at 200 students. 1941 I'm wondering whether the Small Schools Grant Program has been reviewed to see whether, in fact, there should be an expansion to those schools who may have just over 200 students ; because we're finding now that those are the schools that are falling into that deprived category, where the small schoo ls are becoming the very wealthy little schools - none of the schools are very wealthy - but by comparison. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperso n, the guidelines, I guess, are reviewed virtually on an annual basis as we

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 go through the dif ferent kinds of support programs that are offered, this being one of the categorical supports. I guess the difficulty is that - and I will acknowledge that the 200 level is somewhat arbit rary. The fact is that wherever you draw that line, there are going to be individual schools who are just above, just below, that fluctuate depending on the enrolment from year to year in terms of their eligibili ty. I don't think you can get around that. I'm not sure that there was a consensus about how to deal with that problem.

I guess, unless you're prepared to say, well, anybody who's interested can apply and get funding, there have to be some guidelines and it's going to mean that some people are in and some people are out. MR. L. DERKACH: Has the Min ister or his department given any consideration to using a sliding scale for schools that have perhaps in the neighbourhood of 225 students may not in fact qualify for as much of a grant as schools that have 100 students? HON. J. STORIE: I can't honestly say that's been consi dered . You know, it has some merit as an approach.

Perhaps there are other approaches that could be used as well in terms of assessing the dollars spent per pupil in the first instance as a means of helping us to determine criteria. MR. L. DERKACH: How has the figure changed since 1985? Since he says that there was a review of the guidelin es on a yearly basis, can he give me an ind ication of how much money was spent in '86 as compa red to 1985? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, the amount of money spent has been relatively constant over the years. The total number of small schools as defined by the criteria has remained constant as well.

There were 258 in 1982; there are 275 in 1987. That's actually down 7 from 1986 when there were 282 small schools. The total amount of support has gone from $1 .67 million in 1982 to $1.71 million in 1987. Again, it's fluctuated year over year margin ally. The question is if you're going to spend more mone y - the member was also asking yesterday for an incr ease in the special needs area - if the member were to have the respon sibilit y, would he say this is more important, the special needs; or is spending money on the gifted more important?

So although I certainly support small schools, this isn't the only support, as the member knows, that small schools get. I'm not prepared to say, at this point, that, yeah, this is a priority and this is where the money's going to be spent, if there in fact is additional money to be spent in support of education in rural Manitoba or in support of education generally . MR. L. DERKACH: Has the policy of giving small schools extra money caused any difficulty in closing down schools that are very small, ine fficient and also defective in terms of the programs that they're offering, especially in the high school area?

I know we hear from time to time of schools that are operating with less than 50 students in the high school and trying to offer programs in the various areas. Many of them, I think, are staying open because of the fact that they do get a Small Schools Grant and sim ply, because of the principle of the Small Schools Grant, there seems to be a will by the government to keep small schools open. And I'm not arguing that small schools should be closed, but I think there's a point at which time they become inefficient and ineffective and one has to face the eventual end of those schools. HON. J.

STORIE: I guess we could have a good debate on whether in fact they ever become ine ffective. I think the question of cost per pupil is obviously a major concern and I'm not aware of any situation in which the Small Schools Support Program has prevented schools from being closed. We're generally talking about relatively small amounts of money overall, and I would assume that school divisions, when they look at the costs of operating a small school, take it into account, but I'm not sure I can say that it's been a deciding factor in any specific case. I'm not aware of it.

I can only ind icate on top of that, that it h?S not been raised as an issue with me by MR. L. DE RKA CH: Because some schools are school boards. They have not come and said you're experiencing some difficulty in being able to compete , inqkif)g 'life n1 ore difficult for us by establishing programs I guess with the small schools, those schools who ar �. · • and gufot!> such as these because it keeps us from just in that 200 range that I spoke about, I'm wondering, ·' rnaWng ·t hose tough decisions.

I think the member's . if the Min ister would undertake to not only review the ·a ware that Uiere are schools closing across Manitoba. guidelines - well, perhaps to review the guidelines - Every year school divisions are facing those decisions, and also to review the figure that has remained constant including this year. for some five years now. HON. J. STORIE: I guess if we reviewed the guideline and there was some decision to in crease the amount of support, either in straight dollars or by relaxing the criteria, you would certainly have an in crease in the amount of support.

It is a categorical grant and reflects the criteria, so if you change the criteria, you're going to get some change in the bottom line. I guess it's a question of whether you want to spend more money on this kind of - although it's a categorical grant, it's not di rected to any specific activi ty. It's simply a recognition of the limitations that you have in a small school. MR. L. DERKACH: I won't stay on this topic any long er.

I think I'v e got the information I need, except to say that I think the Small Schools Program that was initia ted by the government is a good one, and certainly has helped many schools survive, I guess, and helped school divisions to maintain small schools. All I would do is to encourage the Minister to take a look at those schools that are just at that 200-student range and if a formula can be devised whereby perhaps they can get a sliding scale of the support that is given to small schools.

It seems that there is a need for looking at that option. 1942 I'd like to ask one or two questions on the Early Identi fication Support Program, and the question I have

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 there is how much money has been allocated to that specific area for the year and where can it be found? I don't have the figure in front of me. HON. J. STORIE: Mr . Chairperson, I believe that the figure is $250,000.00. MR. L. DERKA CH: I found it here. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, the figure still is $250,000.00. MR. L. DERKA CH: In the Public Schools Finance Board Annual Report, that figure is shown as $250,000 for 1985; $88,000 for 1986; and there's a note to the financial statement indicating a change in accounting poli cy.

I have a little difficulty understanding that and I'm wondering whether the Mini ster could explain that. HON. J. STORIE: The member was referring to the Public Schools Finance? MR. L. DERKA CH: Yes. HON. J. STORIE: What page is that on? MR. L. DERKA CH: It's

Schedule 1. HON. J. STORIE: Mr . Chairperson, the member may want to turn to page 2 of the Notes to Financial Statements. MR. L. DERKACH: That's what I was referring to. I wanted an explanation of that, because I don't ... HON. J. STORIE: Yes. The '88 really, the amount is actually $250,000.00. What you are seeing there is a change in the school year, so that is all that showed up for that particular period. MR. L. DERKACH: Ok ay. What period is that for, then? HON. J. STORIE: An expense in the year ended December 31, 19 85. It would be 40 percent. It would be the fall term only. · , .• . MR. L.

DERKA CH: The $88,000 is for .th; f:1i'_terffi.;:, HON. J. STORIE: For 1986. That's righ t . MR. L. DERKACH: Can I ask, Mr. Minis ter, why the change and how that is going to affect the figures for next year now? HON. J. STORIE: It has not affected in any substantive way the amount of money that was in the program or that was distributed to school divisions. It is simply an accounting change. You could very legitima tely ask me why they do these things and I have no ide a. MR. L. DERKACH: Does anyone? HON. J. STORIE: Are there any accountants in the room? Mr .

Chairperson, the explanation is that it was being paid on a calendar year basis and it has been moved to be paid on a school year basis, which is something I think the school divisions have been asking for and something that probably makes a lot of sense in all of our funding to school divisions. MR. L. DERKA CH: It was paid on a school-year basis before, and now it's paid on ... HON. J. STORIE: No, it was paid on a calendar year. MR. L. DERKACH: It was paid on a calend ar-year basis; now it's paid on a school-year basis. All right, because I see there are several of those that fall into that catego ry.

But the funding for any one of those now, because it's difficult to compare - for example, if we go to the com pensatory program, we find that in 1985, it was 2.8 and, in 1986, it's 1. 2. Has the figure there changed at all? Has there been an increase, a decrease or anything in that? HON. J. STORIE: In compensatory? No, the amount is $3.3 million. It stayed the same. MR. L. DERKA CH: No, it's $2.8 million. '· HON. J. ST<)ltlE: Ok ay, there was $3.3 million made available - it wasn 't all used - and there is $3.3 million available this year. ·- MR. L. DERKACH: This is what was used then.

Have there been any changes in the other area in the small schools? HON. J. STORIE: No, there have been no changes. MR. L. DERKACH: No changes to any of them. HON. J. STORIE: Basical ly, when you're going down that line, Mr. Chairperson, most of those are - well the majority of them, the only one there would be a change was in transportation, and that's because of the incr ease in the transportation grant, the categorical grant for this year. But other than that, there would only be in creases. I don't believe there are any decreases in �rms of departmental programs. MR·. L.

DERKA CH: Jus t one question on school divisi ons and opted-out Indian bands - notes ind icate that school divisions may receive revenue from opted­ out Indian bands. Are there areas in the province where there are agreements between Indian bands and school divisions where school divisions may be offering some services to Indian bands? Is that where the money comes from, other reven ue? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, there are situations where that's happening. You get Kelsey School Division in The Pas.

Frontier School Division has a number of reciprocal rel ationships actually where the school is band­ controlled and Frontier students attend, and vice versa where it's Frontier school and band students attend. So we have revenue from the Federal Government and they have revenue from us. 1943

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 MR. L. DERKACH: But that's specifically from Indian bands? HON. J. STORIE: Or Indian Affairs schools. There are some band-controlled schools, some controlled by the Department of Indian Affairs. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, I know of one Indian band that opted out a few years ago, and now are starting to utilize the school facilities again. The students are corning back. I'm wondering, are we seeing a reversal of the opting out of Indian bands, or is this just a tempo rary arrangement or does the Min ister know what's happening in this particular area.

We just went through a fairly massive move of Indian students from school divisions, and now we're seeing a few of them corning back. HON. J. STORIE: There are a lot of different factors that go into those kinds of transitions. I think, for many bands, there have been successful transfers from Indian Affairs to band-controlled schools through Ind ian education authorities and so forth. The operation of a school is a difficult, complex thing and takes some years of experience, I think, for most bands to feel comfortable with the new mechanism.

We have seen some experiences across Manitoba where the band has assumed control of a �hool and, for whatever reason, not all the residents of that band decided that the band-controlled school is where they want to send their children, and they've sent their childr en to Frontier School. The opposite is true as well, where Frontier students have been attending band-controlled schools and then, for whatever reason, opted to withdraw their students and attend a Frontier School or have their students attend other school divisions.

I expect that we will see that kind of phenomenon declining as the bands develop their own expertise at operating the schools. MR. L. DERKACH: In those cases where Indian students are coming back, is the province still pursuing a tripartite agreement between the Indian band, the school and the Department of Education for those students who come back? HON. J. STORIE: It would depend on whether there was going to be a long-term relationship. Where Frontier School Division, for example, has decided that there was a need for a school to serve jointly the band and the commu ni ty, then there is a tripartite agreement.

If it's individual students or groups of students coming back, unless there was some long-term possibility for those students remaining at the school, we wouldn't enter a tripartite. What would happen is that the full costs, including residual costs, would be paid by either Indian Affairs or the band to the school division. MR. L. DERKA CH: Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I believe that Manitoba Education has provided a special in centive grant to R.B. Russell Vocat ional School.

Where would that appear in the list of grants that you provided to us? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I suppose there are any number of categories where that support could be provided. It may be through a compe nsatory grant. I'm not sure exactly of the project or program that the member is referring to, but it could be through an inner­ city program or com pensatory grant. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman . . . HON. J. STORIE: Mr . Cha ir per son, I'v e just had confirmation that the pilot that is going on at R.B. Russell does, in fact, come through the Compensatory Grant Program. MR. C.

BIRT: I'm advised it's to develop a school­ based planning model for the organizational structure and operation of the school. The Min ister indi cated that it was a pilot project. What is it that it's intended to do? What's the essence of the program? HON. J. STORIE: Well, the program really is building on the kinds of strengths, I think, that CEDA has been working on in several other schools. Basical ly, it's an intent to draw the communi ty into setting goals for the school, saying what do we expect of R.B. Russell, trying to treat it as a community school.

There is another school that has a similar kind of project under way. The purpose is simply to help the community develop a sense that the school is there for them so they can help, with the school staff, the principal, develop objectives. So basical ly, that's what it's for. MR. C. BIRT: What is the other school? HON. J. STORIE: The other school is Isaac Newton. MR. C. BIRT: What is the cost of these two programs? HON. J. STORIE: It's actually a two-year project, and the cost is $1 00,000, about 60-40 - 60 for R.B. Russell and 40, rough ly, for Isaac Newton. MR. C; BIRT: R.B. Russell is a technical school.

Is it the intention to change the thrust of the type of programs that are being serviced? It's one thing to say that it's nice to get the communi ty involved, but I mean its initial mandate was to try and provide some technical training to those who live in that particular commun ity. That may be an over simpl ification, but is it now the intention then to shift direction and get away from that type of school? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I think there always has been the perception - and maybe that's one of the reasons why this kind of project is deemed to be worthwhile - that R.B.

Russell is only a technical school. It has a regular stream, an academic stream. I think what we are finding as well, and this is perhaps digressing a bit, but the fact is that the intensely vocational programs simply don't seem to be fitting the bill anymore. There is a recognition that, while 1944

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 vocational experience and training is necessar y, there is also a need to make sure that students develop in other ways and somewhat academic ways. I think maybe this project will help change the image of R.B. Russell, generally , in the community and for the students who attend R.B. Russell. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, is it merely one of - the Min ister used the word "image" - is it one of substance, or is it just a P.R. exercise with the commun ity, because that's an awful lot of money? You know, what is the focus of the $10 0,000 being spent in two schools? HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr .

Chairperson, recognizing that this wasn't something that was department-ini tiated necessar ily, that the school di vision saw this as something they wanted to do as well, is it P.R.? I would say that there is an element to that, but it is also streng thening, I guess, the ties between the community and the school, trying to develop a sense amongst the community and the student population of a direction for R.B. Russell. Community planning is self-explanato ry, I guess. to the extent that it means involving the community and setting the goals, setting the direction, tracking the progress of a school.

I suppose it involves, as well, better linka ges between community groups and school and work and school, all of those things. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, it may have been an idea from Winnip eg No. 1 but the funding is coming from the Government of Manitoba, and everyt hing that the Min ister is talking about says that we are spending $10 0,000 of scarce resource dollars on community relations in the broadest sense. As well meaning as it may be, are we going to have any different programs in pla ce? Are we going to be putting any different teachers in pla ce? Are we changing the dir ection of the school?

I mean, if we're not spending money in that particular area, I am afraid I'v e got some real questions about community relations just for an exercise of identifying the school in the communi ty. HON. J. STORIE : Mr . Chairp erson, I gu ess it's somewhat premature for me to say, yes, we're changing the dir ection of the school.

I would expect that is quite likely to happen but, until you've gone through the planning process, until you've identified some new direction that students, staff, the community want you to take, the community is going to be left with the im pression that it's the same old school and the same old things happening. I wouldn't disagree with the member for a moment that change is probably overdue and necessary. In fact, there is a new principal, for the past year-a nd-a-half, in R.B. Russell. So l think it's safe to say that there has been a change alre ady.

Hop efully, this will facilitate that process and make it more likely that the whole thing succeeds for the betterment of the students in general. MR. C. BIRT: The Min ister said it was a pilot and there were two of them at least being looked at in two schools. Is it the idea that this will be an ongoing funding commitment, or is this a one-time thing for the Winni peg School Division to evaluate and see whether or not they want to make admi nistrative changes or structural changes to their program? HON. J. STORIE: No, it certainly is not intended that this would be an ongoing program.

I think th e communi ty-based planning models have been used in all kinds of other venues, including the development of regional development init iatives and so forth. I think it's an opportunity to see if the involvement of the broader community in setting education goals has some long-term effect on student achievement and lowering the drop-out rate and all of those other things that go along with manning a school with a reputation, I guess, such as R.8. Russell has. MR. C. BIRT: Mr . Chairman, on a dif ferent topic now, I have received copies of correspondence and the Mini ster has received letters on them.

I have received copies of his correspondence in reply, basically dealing with this whole issue of Workplace Safety and Health, which seems to a sore point between teachers and trustees. I can appreciate the legislation is not within the jurisdiction of the Min ister, but one is constantly being bombarded with letters and calls as to either the trustees aren't living up to the spirit of the legislation or we had to. Jight to get people to go to a meeti ng. Teachers are looking at it from one perspective, teachers and support staff. Tr ustees see it as a rather large expense, perhaps of little value in return.

Again, I touch on the point that it's not within the Minister's jurisdiction but it does, in the sense that the monies are being funded through the department and indir ectly affect ing how these people carry on their day-to-day lives. I'm wondering, is the Min ister taking any position or is he getting involv ed in this discussion because it seems to revolve around, should schools be treated separately , di fferently . Do you follow the letter of the law?

I know submi ssions have been ma de to the Min ister responsible for the legislation, and both sides seem to be going nowhere fast except an awful lot of heat is being escal ated over this particular issue. I'm wondering, what is the Minis ter or the department doing about it. HON. J. STORIE: Mr . Chairperson, the department has been involved in discussions with Workplace Safety and Health on a num ber of occas ions. I think the disagreements and the contentious issues have been raised in relatively few divisions.

I think, to be fair to teachers and to trustees, they do evolve around some questions about the applicability in its entir ety of the legislation to the school setting. I think the Teachers' Society and MAST have made recommendations to the Min ister with respect to possible changes that would accommodate, I guess, the inte rests of teachers in protecting the workplace, as well as streamlining them and making the regulations, in particul ar, more workable in the school setting. I think there is an accommodation coming.

I don't know whether that in fact will require changes to the legislation or whether it can be done by regulation. I think some of the difficulty has arisen because - and I give the Department of Workplace Safety and Health some credit for this because they have been somewhat 1945

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 flexible and have tried to modif y, if not in word, the intent of the legislation to suit the school situation. But it has created more difficulty because, if you apply the strict terms of the legislation, neither side really seems to be com plying at some point. There is an accommodation coming, I think. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, I take it from the Minister's comment then, it's something that hopefully will be worked out between the trus tees and MTS and Workp lace Safety and Health, and this department is just sort of keeping a hands -off, waiting to see what may develop, or are you involved in the negotiations or the accommodation accord that may evolve? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I have not been in volved in any formal di scussions between the Department of Workplace Safety and Health and either the teachers or the trustees.

I have met with the Mini ster and reviewed my perceptions of the problem, and we have discussed, I guess, the possibility of some kind of accommodation, and that's why I'm hopeful that that will happen. MR. C. BIRT: Mr . Chairman, last year, when we were discussing the Estimates, the Mini ster made reference to an ad hoe commit tee of civil servants dealing with school funding. I belie ve the Minister has made now a public statement that there is a committee of Cabinet dealing with this whole question of public funding of education, a 90 percent goal. Is there such a vehicle and, if so, who sits on it? HON. J.

STORIE: I believe it has been made public on a number of occasions.

I believe when the Min ister of Finance, the First Min ister and myself met with a group of trustees and teachers and muni cipal officials that we made it very clear that in fact since December , I believe, of last year, of 1986, there had been a comm ittee of Urban Affai rs, Mu ni cipal Affairs, Department of Finance, and Education meeting to look at ways of moving towards the goal of 90 percent funding, looking at the implic ations of asses sment reform, the cost, general ly, of education, all of those issues in a package which we hope to be able to put together to set out a timetable, if you will, for moving towards meeting that commitment.

MR. C. BIRT: Who was doing the primary work for it? Because it wouldn't be the Min isters the mselves. Is it the Minister of Finance that's still on this committee? Who are the commi ttee members and who is doing the primary work on it, what department? HON. J. STORIE: Well, the departments that I just mentioned, the representative Mini sters sit on the commi ttee that's looking into the qu es tion, and departmental staff do, I guess their own share. I believe that the Assistant Deputy Minister in the Department of Education, Mr. Sale, is the coordin ator. MR. C.

BIRT: When will this commi ttee be reporting to Cabinet? HON. J. STORIE: Well, I suppose I could plead the Fifth or Cabinet secrecy, but I believe that the working group has been asked to report in the near future on an interim basis, understanding that there is going to be a great deal of work required if we are to coordinate all of those pieces and make them coherent and . I've always wondered, is there such a word as "implementable"? -(Interjection)- There is now. MR. C. BIRT: Mr .

Chairman, on a different topic again, the Mini ster had produced this particular document called "The Approp riate Education Student Placement and Parent In volvem en t." The do cument make s reference to the fact that they hope to have submissions in by the 30th of this year for implementation in the fall of this year. Now that may be a hope that may not be realized wholly. In fact, how is the prog ress coming on this particular document in respect to respon ses from the public? HON. J. STORIE: Well, I have had several letters in return in reply to my letter, which included the discussion paper .

It has been very positive. There is a comm ittee structure which we'll be discussing, I guess, the paper itself. I don't know whether the goal of having something ready is possible by September or not, but I think that there is probably going to be sufficient agreement on the principles that we will be able to establish some broad goals, guidelin es, for school di visions by that time frame. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, to a degree, it may be what flows from the paper, pol icy or regulation, but it may have some financial impl ications.

Are there monies set aside for this or is it perceived that there will be no financial implication and we're merely talking about, perhaps, operational procedu res here? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, in the main, I think we're talking about operational procedures.

The interesting thing about this whole area, and I'm sure the member in his role as Opposition critic has had representation to him about the need for legislation, regulation, dealing with parental involvement, my experience has been, and I say this not only as someone coming from a school system but also having toured and talked to special educators, superintendents, trustees, teachers in virtually every part of the province that in the main there are very few problems. In the main there are very few problems in terms of placement.

There is a recognition on the part of superintendents and principals and teachers that parents want to be involved, particularly when they have students with spe cial needs. And most ti mes tho se are accommodated. So I don't think one wants to create a sledgehammer when all one needs is a kind word and a gentle prod and an overall setting, an overall sense of direction, and I think that's what we intend to do. At this point I don't see us requiring, or school divisions requiring significant resources to make this a workable proc ess. So there have been no funds set aside.

I suppo se that if we get into the discussions and it becomes apparent that this isn't working or that it isn't workable or that people won't cooperate, then we would have to perhaps consider alterna tiv es that may be more expensive. But as a first step, I don't think it's necessar y. 1946

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 MR. C. BIRT: I think it's a worthwhile attempt to take that first step to see if you can work it through, perhaps, cooperation and procedures rather than, as the Mini ster said, use a sledgehammer to perhaps solve a small problem. People who talk to me and mbers of my caucus on this point to both Saska tchewan and Ontario having brought in either revised or new education acts that sort of entrench th ese principl es in the statutes thems elves. Did the Min ister look at doing that here, or why did they reject that proposal to go this particular route? HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr .

Chairperson, I am certain ly, particularly when it comes to issues such as access to information, I have been in virtually - well, not quite - three-quarters of the school divisions in the province, I would say. I have met many , if no t all, of the superintendents at one time or another and they, to a person, tell me that getting information, there is no secret of keeping a file. That when clinicians see children, parents are informed. In fact, their permission is sought and that they get copies of the clinicians' reports and all of those things.

Access to individual student records, to my kno wledge, is a normal operating procedure for schools. If that wasn't the case or if it requires regulation to make that the case, then I'm prepared to do that. My experience is, and with very few except ions, I have not heard a contrary opinion expressed about the practices being followed in our schools. I guess if the procedures are already being followed without the requirement, I think that's good educational practice and I don't see the need for legislation on that particular aspect of it.

Some of the other provisions that are included in legislation, or have been suggested, are much more costly in their impli cations, and one would want to go very careful ly, I think, about that. We could get into a situation where we have legislation passed, as has been done in the past, which is not proclaimed because of the impl ications of people not having thought them through careful ly. MR. C. BIRT: Mr .

Chairman, I think on this issue - and I can appreciate some of these problems may be more local or personal rather than province-wide - to my way of thinking, if I was a teacher or principal, I think I would want to invite you in if I was going to be making decisions affect ing your child, rather than having you outside. It makes good common sense just in an ordinary way of solving your problem, never mind from a professional point of view. I believe the Manitoba Teachers' Society has given a very large paper in this whole area of rights and what should be included in a revised sort of rights' issue.

It touches on this particular area and I believe they have submit ted it to the Minis ter. They have certainly given me a copy; I just can't find it at the moment. It covers a wide variety of areas and it may have some financial imp lications. I know they deal with the issue of special needs, and you know that's from both ends of the spectrum; but I guess the question that they're dealing with, and I know some of the parents that have approached me, not so much access to the files, but it's being inv olved in the decision-making process. Now you can go too far.

Do they come into the classroom and do they have the right to decide what textbooks you are going to give or how you're solving a problem, or whatever? I don't go that far. I mean the professional is there to do his or her job. That's where they take over. But I am trying to get a handle on the size of the problem if it goes beyond just the sharing of information.

It's the involving, the consul ting, the request, perhaps, to do another assessment or evaluation of the child, and you get the argument, well, it was done in kind ergarten, you don't need to do it now, or it's Grade 3 and maybe there is a learning disabil ity. The teachers seem to be pushing for something more substantive, and again they make reference to the other two acts.

If the government can't see its way clear to go as far to guarantee special ed, and fund that, it's this other area, I guess, of the involvement in the process which seems to me the bigg est bug bear both from a professional point of view and the parent point of view. HON. J. STORIE: Well, the short answer is that I think good educational practice would dic tate that you do those kinds of things in terms of the involvement. I think that our experience, general ly, in working with school divisions and admin istrations, has been quite positive. I use as an example the school closure guidelin es.

In Manitoba, there were no guidelines and the process was very much ad hoe, school division by school division. When the province issued guidelines, which really were voluntary guidelines, because they made sense, they are being used throughout the province. I am not aware of any situation where they are not being used. I think the same would probably hold true for the issuance of policy guidelines for dealing with student placement, involvement of parents.

What I suggested to MAST and the teachers is that I think one of the roles of the Department of Education is to establish direction and say, "This makes good sense; let's try and do this." If it comes down to it where we have to do that by legislation, then we do that, but I think the first step is to say, "This makes good sense." I believe that there is very little opposition to the issue of involvement of parents, and that if you establish reasonable guidelin es and processes in the event that the process breaks down, there will be few problems. MR. C.

BIRT: Going to a different topic, page 48 of the Annual Report, it deals with Government Support and I am just wondering if this figure is correct. It says, "Through the GSE and Variable Block Programs and other support the Provincial Government supported over 53 percent of education costs in Manitoba in 1985." Given the information we've been trading in the last little while, where does that figure come from? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the explanation is that 53 percent is the portion that comes dir ectly from the Department of Education.

There is twelve million from now the Department of Agriculture, plus other reimbur sements through the Department of Finance. MR. C. BIRT: Mr . Chairman, some thin g about Continuing Education, which I belie ve is sort of the 1947

Tuesday , 12 May, 1987 training or courses that are offered in the evening to the public, does the Provincial Government provide funding for these programs? HON. J. STORIE: I'm sorr y, Mr . Chairperson, I'm . MR. C. BIRT: Something called Continuing Education - it may not be the exact word - but as I understand, Continuing Education is sort of programs that are offered to the public at nighttime in the schools. Are we providing provincial funding for it, and if so, how much? HON. J.

STORIE: We actually provide funding for what the member has defined as Continuing Education through many di fferent sources, including thr ough commu ni ty colle ges, I gu ess through gr ants to un iversities in the uni versities north kind of thing, gr ants to school divisions, grants to a whole series of non­ profit groups who provide literacy training. I am not sure if that would all fall under the rubric of Continuing Education, but I'm inclined to think so. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: The Member for Fort Garr y. MR. C. BIRT: Does the Min ister have an amount on it?

The lang uage-type cour ses, it would seem to me, would not fall under this Continuing Education. I am thinking more of the stuff that's just offered in the evenings, whether it be pottery making or that sort of non-academic orien tated-type program ming. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, that would fall under the Adult Continuing Education Branch. There are a series of gr ants that are provided to school divisions to support evening courses, non-academic courses. That would be in (XVI) (5) ... MR. C. BIRT: Okay, we'll get to it then. HON. J. STORIE: . . . in Post-Seconda ry, Adult and Continuing Educationf MR. C.

BIRT: Ok ay, we'll get into it later . Mr . Chairman, generally speak ing, people leave high school at 18 or 19, but I kno w there seems to be a trend start ing, especially housewives, of going back to school and taking either basic courses or typing courses, that sort of thing. Do we fund for those people who are going back to the high school system? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, school divisions currently get the same per capita, per student financing from the province regardle ss of whether the student is an adult or a min or. MR. c. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, is there a growing number of - let's call them adults - going back to - I take it it would be in a high school type setting - to take courses, and are they accredited-orientated courses they are taking, or is it just they're going back for one or two courses and then leavi ng? If so, are you prorating the grants or are they getting the full student grant? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, it is prorated if the student is there longer than 20 -if they're over age 21. It's prorated if they're over age 21, depending on the time spent.

There are surprisingly a great number of students, a growing number of students going back. They run the gamut. There are people going back to get their Grade 12 or finish high school; there are also adult students going back to take data processing and individual courses as well. I have raised the possibility previously of encouraging that by eliminating all of the potential fees because I think it's a good idea to make schools available to the public. I think it also has some advantages in terms of the learning environment of the school. Classes with adults in them take on a di fferent aura quite noti ceab ly.

I think that's a general experience that teachers have found. MR. C. BIRT: The Minis ter made reference that they're prorated. If they're taking a full-time instruction, then they would get the full grant, or if they're only getting one course, then they would get one-fifth or whatever it is. The other question would be num bers. Is it something that's gr owi ng and do we see it dev eloping into something so that you'd have to develop a poli cy, or does it have policy impl ications for the schools? HON. J. STORIE: I don't think ... it may have policy implic ations if it becomes a more entrenched practice.

Current ly, I think school divisions allow adults to attend classes based on their cl ass size. Genera lly, if the class is of a reasonable size, there is no problem. What would happen in the event that the class was large and the school division should decide that they can't handle it, I think then it would create a problem. To date, it hasn't been a problem. I would hazard to guess that there are probably not more than a couple hundred adults going back to school right now - I mean adults attending high school - but that is a significant increase, obviously, over what it was a few years ago. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister relates that there are people going back to school to pick up courses. and certainly there are a lot of adult people going back to Tech Voc, etc., to pick up courses that they find they need after they've been in the work force because they left school too soon. What is being done or what program is being ini tiated to convince young people that they should probably stay in school so that they would have the education required to carry on with the vocation they want maybe later on in life? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chair person, apart, I guess, from the normal communi ty school act iviti es, the establishment of parent councils, it's the work of ind ividual teachers and cou nsellors. I think it's significant that there are probably more counsellors in our schools today than ther e ever have been before. There are a series of, I guess inno vative projects - we were discussing one such project earlier - that 1948

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 attempt to help the school deal with local circumstances, including the drop-out rate, by getting the community involved, by getting students and teachers involved. There are pr ojects th at are suppor ted thr ough compensatory grant programs which involve peer counselling. So there is probably a fairly wide range of init iatives out there - some init iated by individual counsellors or teachers, some by parent council groups, some by schools, and some through the auspices of programs offered by the department such as the Small Schools Program and the Compens atory Grant Program.

The other area, despite the fact that we have too high a drop -out rate, the dr op-out rate toda y is substantially less than it was 10 years ago. That's due, in large measure, to the fact that we offer a much broader range of courses for students. I think we are succeeding in keeping the attention and the int erest of students in motivating them to continue on through high school. That doesn't mean that there aren't still too many drop-outs. As the members kno ws, in some parts of the province, in some areas that's a much more serious problem than others. MR. F. JOHNSTON: What is the drop-out rate? HON. J.

STORIE: I believe there are still approximately 35 percent of students who do not compl ete high school. MR. F. JOHNSTON: ·Well, 35 percent, although it may be lower than it was, is still a very high figure, as the Mini ster recognizes. The students find themselves in a position of wanting to take on a vocation after they've been in the work force for a while; but it doesn't relate to extra courses in the schools - it relates to the basic education that they left behind them that is required. It's not the extra courses; it's the basic education that they've left behind.

Other than counselling - if we're still at 35 percent - is there something other than counselling that can be done to have the schools become more interesting to the young people so that they will stay in it? I ask this question because I speak from experience. I have a son who ran for the school board and is a trust ee because he's interested in basically that, because he felt he had wasted five years of his life to get to where he wants to be today because he dropped out of school.

Now that's fine, but there's a lot of people that are leaving school and finding out that they need the basics once they get into the work force looking for a vocation. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr . Chairperson, I guess there are a nurnberf things that are happening that, hopeful ly, will alleviate some of those problems. I think the member is aware of the tact that, in Manitoba, students can attend univ ersities, for example, as mature students. There are no barriers - or fewer barriers than in lots of other jurisdictions.

In addition, over the past few years, we, as a province, have certainly encouraged and tried to increase the number of adult basic education courses that are offered. Ther e are opportunities to up gr ade skills through equi valency test ing, and the ge nera l educational development tests. All of those things, I think, work to the advantage of young people who have, for whatever reason, dropped out of school and see themselves needing to get back into post-secondary institutions or other training opportunities.

Each one of those: adult basic education, the upgrading courses, the GED tests; all, I think, provide avenues for young people to do that. MR. F. JOHNSTON: That's all I have. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Mr . Chairman, I'm prepared to - unless there's other questions - I say we pass sect ion. HON. J. STORIE: Is this

Section 3.(

a) we're passing? MR. C. BIRT: All of it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:

Section 3. (a), 3.(b), 3.(c), 3.(d)- pass. Resolution No. 49: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $436,526,000 for Education, Financial Support - Schools, for the fiscal year ended the 31 st day of March, 19 88-pa ss. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, before we get started on No. 5, I just wondered if we might have a five-minute break. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: A five-minute break? How about until four o'clock? (Agreed) HON. J. STORIE: That'll be six, but what the heck. (RECESS) MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee, come to ord er. The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, looking at page 51 in the Annual Report, there's a reference there of international programs being operated, I guess it's through Red River Community College. It's a $5 million, five-year technical assistance prog ram to the Kenya In stitutes of Technology Project. There's reference throughout the report of a num ber of other areas that were involved. Whose responsibility is it to look after the foreign component of technical training overseas? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, there is an indi vidual at Red River Community College who is, pardon me - I'm sor ry, not Red River - in PACE who is responsible for that task and has been for three years. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister advise just what the financial arrangements are? Who is funding it; how do we get paid; are we making money; are we supposed to make money; things like that? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr . Chairperson. The funding actually comes from CIDA - I gather that's the Canadian International Development Agency - and the Association of Communi ty Coll eges. They look after the admini strative costs.

As well, there is a capital purchase 1949

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 or an acquisitions policy which also includes a Buy Manitoba component. MR. C. BIRT: Mr . Chairman, from the CID A aspect and the Association of Canadian Colleges, is Manitoba putting any money up, or is it costing us money, or are we making money on this particular program? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, there is no profit to be made. It is basically a cost-recoverable activity for the province. The benefit, I guess, obviously, besides the economic benefit and the fact that it's all revenue being generated by the province, is the experience and the opportunity to share and develop.

MR. C. BIRT: Mr . Chairman, do we send personnel over to these various countries? In this particular ins tance, it says Kenya, but I note there are a num ber of other countries involved. HON. J. STORIE: It works both ways; in fact, there are students that come here, depending on the specific agreement. There are students that might come to Assiniboine or Red River Community College, as well as, from time to time, we send staff or indi viduals over to provide training overseas, and the staff can be actually selected, chosen from Canada as a whole as well. It's not just staff at Red River Community College.

That's when . MR. C. BIRT: These students that come here, do we pick up their entrance fees or are they covered by CIDA as well? HON. J. STORIE: Their fees are paid. MR. C. BIRT: By who? HON. J. STORIE: By the agency that sponsors them, which may be CID A, or it may be some other , the World Bank. So students are sponsored by different agencies. MR. C. BIRT: How many students would we have over here, from other countries, taking training under those types of agreements? HON. J. STORIE: There may be as many as 50 or 60 in total at the colleges. MR. C. BIRT: Mr .

Chairman, the Mini ster made reference to a capital purchase program that's geared to Buy Manitoba. Where does that money come from relating to this capital purchase program? Is it out of our budget or, again, is it coming from the sponsored countries or agency? HON. J. STORIE: It comes from the agencies as well. MR. C. BIRT: So then, I take it, we provide personnel that we get cost recovery for, or we provide teaching facilities and positions for students from overseas; again the cost is pretty well paid for by those people who come in. HON. J.

STORIE: Really, it's very much like contract training for Manitoba Rolling Mills or any other agen cy. We simply provide the training component, and our costs, including admin istrative costs, are recovered. MR. C. BIRT: Mr . Chairman, I'd like to get into an area - I can appreciate some of these areas are specific, like Student Aid and that, but I'd like to deal with, in general, the whole tec hn ical training area. If it's Man power training it falls within the technical schools but they will bear the brunt of it.

So it may mean moving around a bit, and I hope the Minister will bear with me because I don't know specifically where to ask these questions, but does the Department of Educ ation negotiate with the Federal Government for any specific job training or re-employment contracts? And if so, what particular contracts are the y, or agreements are they? HON. J.

STORIE: I guess the prime example is the National Tr aining Agreement which is neg otia ted actually by Emplo yment Services but we sit on the negotiating team and provide in put from the department, and from that, the Federal Government chooses spaces at our community colleges and some other institutions, based on the list of courses that we are offeri ng, so the agreement is for a total number of dollars. The indiv idual seat selections, if you will, are done more or less in conjunction with the community colleges and their list of progra mming.

That is one area of concern, I guess, because of the reductions that have taken place in terms of the total funding for the National Tr aining Agreement. MR. C. BIRT: Is that the only agreement that the Department of Education is involved in, or are there others? HON. J. STORIE: Mr . Chairperson, practically every community college is involved in training agreements with individual companies, with non-profit agencies.

I believe the Assiniboine Community College is involved in a training program, a cooperative education program - I don't have the title for it but it is a program that is supported through the Canadian Jobs Strategy . There are, as well, individual contracts with individual com panies. We have another agreement with the Federal Government and the City of Winnipeg, the Core Area Tr aining and Emplo yment Agency. There is also an agreement with the Vocational Rehab Program. There is also post-secondary training that would come un der this branch thr ough Northern Development Agreement. So there are many.

The Inter-Provincial Tr aining Agreements, as well, are a little different than these but ... MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I'v e had our staff pull together a fairly extensive list of training agreements. Some of them are federal and some of them are provincial, but it would appear that all of them touch on the community college system in one way, shape or form.

I can go through them and it's - I guess what I am trying to find out is there seems to be a plethora of actors and money floating around in the job training and they all touch onto the community college system, either whether they are the local community centre or they're into the specific college themselves. Is there a 1950

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 pol icy, is there a coordinating group that knows exactly what the players are and what the objectives are? It just - quite frank ly, the amount and the variety of programs are staggering. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, although there are several actors, there is a coordi nated effort and I guess the best example is the renegotiated National Trai ning Agreement, in which one department took the lead and there is involvement from other departments and the same is true when there are negotiations going on in terms of activities which affect the college.

The college also has a rote to play in outlining its capabilities and its preparedness in providing training. I should ind icate there are other institutions beside the commun ity colleges which also form a part of the training plan, the Manitoba Technical Tr aining Centre which is assigned a direct purchase basis from CEIC, as well has some on-going contracts with business. The South Winnipeg Technical Centre also has some training responsibili ty.

I am not going to put the sole blame - the fact is that the province has been working in the last couple of years to coordinate its education and tra ining activities. The fact is that the Federal Government, I think, probably is in need of doing much the same thing because they provide funding for training through the Secretary of State, through Immi gr ation and Employment, through ORIE, through who knows, a whole range of programs as well.

I think the provincial response is sometimes simply to go out and get those things and I suppose there have been other complicating factors such as the recent decision to stop di rect purchase of places in our comm unity col leges or reduce the level of dir ect purchase spaces, which means that now commun ity colleges have, in effect, had to develop new strategies to try and attract federal training dollars. Hopeful ly, we have been successful. It has meant, real ly, refocusing a lot of energy at the community col leges, however. MR. C. BIRT: Mr .

Chairman, I take it the principal federal piece of legislation that funds a fair amount of money that comes into the province is the National Agreement or Tr aining Act. Why is it not into the Department of Education? I mean, why isn't it your responsibility? Why is it over in Income Security and whatever the name of that department is. You alluded to it earlier that you were on the team but it's really not your team. It seems to make more sense within a - while we're into post-secondary education, to do an employment training type situation. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I guess there is, in fact, more than one department involved. The National Tra ining Agreement also covers programs like New Careers, which is operated out of Employment Services. There are substantial dollars inv ested in that kind of program. The Limestone Tr aining and Emplo yment Agency is sponsored, and there's some $10 million or $12 million of funds going to that particular venture. I would hazard to guess that, overall, our share may not be the majority - significant, it is.

I guess part of 1951 it is tradition, that the training agreement normally has been negotiated between Emp loyment Services and CEIC. We have, in fact, had di scussions about our relationsh ip, par ticula rly in terms of negotiations, because it does cause us some concern. But I think that the coordination and the cooperation has been better in the last couple of years, or the last five years, than previously . Part of that is spurred by the tact that we simply have to be more careful and a little more di rective in terms of spending. MR. C.

BIRT: Maybe recently the Economic Securities ind ustry may have been looking after the negotiations on this but, quite frank ly, the Department of Ed. has been around for a long time and post-secondary education has really evolved through the Department of Education. The building of all the community colleges, most of the institutional end of things have flowed through the Department of Education. The Limestone Agreement for training, which I believe is more like $18 million - some of it, I think, goes to Keewa tin, some down into Red River Commun ity College.

You'v e got your National Tr aining Agreement; you've got a whole variety of other smaller agreements. The Minister touched on some of them; the list I'v e got has a few more of them. HON. J. STORIE: There's quite a few more. MR. C. BIRT: I guess the concern one has, and I have, is that there would appear to be at least thr ee, maybe four departments involv ed in the del ivery of dollars, or retraining dolla rs within the province. We're dealing with large sums of money; I mean, to say maybe $10 0 million is probably not an exaggeration; it may even be much higher.

We've got four horsemen going in four different dir ections. At least that would be the appearance. Now th ere may be some in ter-cooperation between departments but, you know, I don't get a sense that we're getting excellent value for our money in the sense that it's being targeted, we're not duplicating, we're not tripping over one another . How do we know we're not misdir ecting something like this? I can appreciate you've got historical empir es here that may cause some of the problems, and I don't mean that in any wrong sense.

It's just that when you've got at least four departments involved , I worry that we're not getting a coordinated attack. Are we over building spots, for example? Are we getting the right people into the right institutions? Are we wasting money that we all know is scarce? People would argue that they're not wasting money, but are we really getting value for our money? A whole series of questions, because you're spread over such a large map on the provincial scene. HON. J.

STORIE: I think that maybe the imp ortant point to note here is that what happens when you're negotiating a federal-provincial agreement, really is a global allocation of funds; in fact, the money that is allocated through the National Tr aining Agreement to the department is re ally a glob al allo cation. The department really admini sters the funds. That's true whether we're talking about the Northern Development Agreement, or the Core Area Agreement.

Tuesday, 12 May, 1987 The core area may be a good example where there is $12 million which is set aside for Communi ty Education. It's not a question of a whole bunch of departments necessarily , an yway, involved in the de li ver y. It's simply a qu estion of who do es the negotiating. The member makes a legitimate point. I think every Minis ter feels qui te strongly ab out his or her department's involvement in those negotiations. I think we have been relatively satisfied that the agreements we have come up with have served the interests of Manitoba.

It's not only the opinion of the department, the individual department. We're sometimes accused of empire building. The fact is that Tre asury Board is involved, as are representatives from federal-provincial relations. So there is some coordination when we're talking about large federal-provincial agreements, in any event. There is some coordinating effort from outside the individual departments as well. MR. C. BIRT: Mr .

Chairman, that's on the global concern and I guess it's the internal, or the parochial or provincial scene; for example, I believe the funding came from the Canadian Jobs Strategy Fund for the employment of single parents and those who had been on welfare, through Mr. Evans' department. It roughly was $6 million, I think, from two groupings. It meant special training projects. The point that I'm making here is did they spend this money to create their own facilities or did they go into, say, a school division or a regional technical school, or the local community college, whatever it is?

I guess you can create a lot of teachers and buy a lot of space and a lot of typewriters, when you could be saving a lot of money by using and utilizing resources. That's really where I want to make sure that we're getting good value for our dollar. There's a lot of money and a lot of people doing a lot of projects in the province. HON. J. STORIE: Mr . Chairperson, I think first of all that the money for the program referenced by the member , I think originally came out of funds allocated to the Canada Assistance Program. Really, it's money designated for social assistance.

The fact is that we - the colleges will likely be delivering some of the training. The training that Employment Services is involved in, to a large extent is non-institutional, New Careers kind of programming, the Wage Subsidy Tr ai ning Program, those kinds of things. There are fairly di stinct responsibilities along, I guess, training lines, institutional versus non-institutional. I can accept the member's point. There is always room for improvement in that area.

Whether in fact carvi ng out addit ional res ponsibi li tie s from other departments, to be assumed by the Department of Education, whether that's the most efficient way, I guess is something we'll have to review. I guess the main depa rtment s are Commun ity Services, Employment Services, and Labour , which has some involvement in the apprenticeship programs. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I guess it's the non­ institutional stuff that, really is the big area. You may be taking a program, taking three or five weeks, or three months to give someone some training. I guess it's where is it being done?

We've got lots of empty schools around, or empty facilities around. We've got colleges that may have spaces. What I'm trying to say is rather than going out and leasing some space or crea ting, are we in fact - we've got a pretty good in ventory of where we're at and some of it's underutili zed because either we don't have the student population, or for a variety of reasons. Are we making sure that we're getting proper use of the expensive resources we've got in place? That's really one of the areas of concern that I have. HON. J. STORIE: I think we're doing a better job.

I won't sit here and say in every case we've identi fied where another department , Employment Services or some other department, has gone out and said we're going to provide this particular training component for these job re-entry applicants, or whatever. I think, in the main, either the colleges have done that or there has been some coordination of the tr aining, job­ experience portions of the program. Like I said, there's pretty clear dif ferent iation of his responsibility and that's come over time. MR. C. BIRT: Mr . Chairman, the last word that I had was that a new N