Manitoba Hansard — 7 April 1981 (Sitting 53A, 31st Legislature, 5th Session)

31-5-53a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Gr aham (Bir tle Russell): Pres enting Petit ions . . . Read ing and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COM MITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Hydro.

Can the Minister confirm that during the time space of the Tritschler Commission proceed ings that he, as Minister responsible for Hydro, was approached by a member of the Hydro Board and advised as to the recommendations and legal opinion of Chief Legal Counsel for Manitoba Hydro, during that time space in question? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. Radisson. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, no I cannnot confirm that. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Commi ttee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress, and asks leave to sit again.

I move, seconded by the Ho nourable Mem ber for Portage Ia Prairie that report of Commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (L a Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report for the year 1979-80 for the Manitoba Department of Fitness, Recreation and Sport. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUES TS MR.

SPEAKER: At this particular time I would like to introduce to all members of the Legislature a distingui shed guest, Governor Olson from the State of North Dakota, and with him are seven members of his entourage, Mr. Bob Kallberg, Press Secretary; Mr. John Smith, Chief of Staff; Mr. Richard Elkin, Public Service Commissioner; Mr. Ed Becker, Business and Industrial Development Organiza tion; Mr. Vern Fahy, St ate Eng ineer; Mr. Murr ay Sagsveen, Attorney Associated with the Garrison Diversion; and General Murry, Adjutant-General of the National Guard.

On behalf of all honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. We also have 25 students from Red Ri ver Community Colle ge under the di rect ion of Mrs. Braid. This college is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Logan. On behalf of all honourable members we also welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. 2481 MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further by way of supplementary, can the Minister confirm that he was informed, adv ised , of the opinions and recommendations of Chief Legal Couns el for Hydro during the proceed ings of the Tritschler Commission proceed ings? MR. CRAIK: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm that. MR.

PAWLEY: Is the Minister, by way of further supplementary, indicating that at no time was he made aware of the legal opm1on and recommendations of Chief Legal Counsel Steward Mar tin, during the Trit schler Commission proceed ings, pertaining to the Commission acting in excess of its jurisdiction and recommendation from Chief Legal Counsel for Manitoba Hydro, that those proceed ings should be crushed by an order in court? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the legal counsel that the Leader of the Opposition refers to was engaged by Hydro and was released by Hydro.

At the time of his release I know that the legal counsel was disturbed by the progress or lack of, or whatever, events with regards to his client before the Tritschler Inquiry Commission. Whether or not it contained the items specific that the member refers to, I cannot confirm. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, by way of further supplementary, is the Minister indicating that he was not informed as to the nature of the concern expr essed by the Chief Legal Couns el for Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Steward Martin? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, as I ind icated to the committee meet ing this morning, on any number of occasions, since it was a very repetitious session we had this morning, that the legal counsel, the first legal counsel, one of the two that Hydro had retained of their own volition, was upset when he left about the progress of events. I was advised by Hydro that he was upset; I was also advised that he was ill and that he would not be available for their services any further. Details beyond that are not available to me. It was the business of the Board at that time to deal with it as they saw fit. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister indicates that he was aware of the Chi ef Legal Cou nsel

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 ----------------------------------- quitting half way through the Tritschler Commission proceed ings as a result of either (

a) concern!�, or (

b) health. Is the Minister indicating to this Cham l)er that prior to this morning, he was not informed a:; to the nature of the Chief Legal Counsel's concerns and that those concerns were not at any time bmught to his attention during the proceed ings themsnlves of the Tritschler Commission Hearings? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Ho n•)Urable Leader of the Opposition has made mention of some thing that tr anspir ed this morning . Is he referring to a committee of this Assem bly tllat was meeting this morning? If so, I would suggnst that those questions remain within the committ,�e until that committee reports.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, let me point oul. to you that the questions flow from the proceedings this morning of that committee. They are not re�'e titious in respect to the items of this morning, but flow naturally from the proceed ings this morning themselves and to that extent, Mr. Speaker, I believe the questions to be in order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

May I suggest to the honourable member that matters that are before a committee for consideration of a commit tee are hardly matters that are subject to debate in this House or qu estio ning in this Ho use while that committee is still mee ting. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: If I could again speak to your point of order, these questions that I am dir ecting are being dir ected towards the Minister, not towc1rds the Chairman or the General Manager of Hydro, but towards the Minister who is responsible for Manitoba Hydro. That Minister is present in this Chaml>er, Mr.

Speaker, and it's of general interest to 11atters pertaining to this Legislature, to the Province of Manitoba, that the Minister who is responsible for Hydro be expected, in fact I suggest obliged to deal with questions of this nature during the proceedings of this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Hon•)urable Minister of Government Services on a point ol' order. HON. WARNER H. JORGE NSON (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, on that point of order, I simply want to draw to your attention, in Beauschene's Rules and Forms, the Fifth Edition, on Page 131, Subsection (h)(h): "Questions that are not permissible during Orders of the Day are to seek information about proceedings in a committee which has not yE:t made its report to the House, which I think subst antiates the position that you had taken earlier." MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem l>er for Kildonan on a point of order. MR. PETER FOX: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I beliE:ve that the Leader of the Opposition is seeking information not with respect to proce edings of wliat the committee is doing, but in respect to Hydrc , which comes under the jurisdiction and auspices of the Minister of Energy and Mines. Therefore, I tliink the question is totally legitimate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation in answering these questions, but I have to point out, Mr.

Speaker, that with regard to the questions, they were asked on more than one occasion this morning and were answered and the questions in this House are no di fferent than the ones then, and the comm itte e will resume its sittings on another occasion; it has still not completed its work. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition on the point of order. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, to the point of order, the questions that are being asked at this point deal with the Mi nister's res ponsibili tie s as Minister re sponsi ble for Hydr o and they do not relate exclusively to the proce edings this morning, but relate to the Minister's respo nsibili ties, not the re sponsibil ities of the Chairman or the General Manger of Hydro, but in respect to the political head, the Minister who is responsible for Manitoba Hydro reporting in this Chamber. Mr. Speaker, if I could proceed then with the supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

May I point out to the honourable member that until this matter is out of the committee and the committee has reported to the House, I would prefer not to entertain any further questions dealing di rectly with the affairs of that committee as it does encroach on the privileges of this Chamber. The Honourable Member for St. Vital on the point of order. MR. JAMES D. WALDING: Mr . Sp eaker, the questions of the Leader of the Opposition are not dealing dir ectly or indirectly with the hearings of the Public Utilities Committee.

They are dir ected towards the Minister and asking of the Minister's involvement in a particular matter. It would seem to me, Mr. Speaker, that they are in order and should be so ruled. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines on the point of order. MR. CRAIK: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. I want to repeat that I was available for the questions at the committee, as the Minister reporting for the utility.

The questions were dir ected at me through the Chairman of the utility; I answered the questions directly on a number of occasions and I simply repeat that we have to decide whether it is here or in the committee that we are going to deal with this. We have already dealt with it in the committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition on the point of order. MR. PAWLEY: My question is a very straight forward one.

Is it being suggested by the Acting House Leader and by the Minister, indeed by yourself in your earlier comments, that any questions relating to Hydro cannot be asked of the Minister responsible 2482

Tuesday, 7 April, 19 81 for Hydro, solely because there are now committee proceed ings pertai ning to Hydro taking place in this building? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I point out to the honourable member that we do follow rules, the rules that the Chair did not lay down. Those rules have been set before and a matter which is presently before a committee is not a subject for legitimate discussion in the Chamber while that subject matter is before that committee. Is that clear? The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that you are ruling that no subject matter in respect to Hydro can now be dis cussed, that's precisely what is being said. Now if that is not being said, then I am prepared to suggest to you, Sir, that the Leader of the Opposition proceed with his question, but if you are suggesting that nothing about Hydro may be aske d of the Minister in this Chamber at this particular time, then I must challenge that ruling. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I have been informed by the Clerk that those questions were questions that were asked this morning in front of a Committee of this House.

Until that Commi ttee reports to this Assembly, I would suggest that the subject matter is a proper subject for the committee to deal with and should not be repeated in this Cham ber at the present time. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Mr. Speaker, I know we cannot have a debate with you, but I would like to ask whether a member may now ask a question in respect to Hydro which was not repeated this morning. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Chair cannot anticipate the content of any question until after the question has been asked, so the Chair cannot rule out a question which at this point has not been asked. I ask all members to consider the rules of the Chamber and to govern themselves according to the rules that have been laid down, not by this Chairman, but by other commi tte es of the Legislature that have set these rules long before today. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further to the Minister re sponsible for Hydro, can the Minister advise whether or not he will be assuming a position in respect to the Chief Legal Counsel for Hydro being releas ed, bei ng waived from solicitor-client obligations in order that he may speak freely to the public at large, or to any member of this Chamber per taining to rec ommendations that he made pertaining to his res ponsiblity as Chief Legal Counsel for Manitoba Hydro? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the same thing applies as with the last question.

It was dealt with at length in the committee this morning, and a position was indicated by the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro in that regard, and the question and the answer was dealt with on several occa sions in this morning's committee. 2483 MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister to whom Hydro reports would be able to answer the question, whether two-and-a-half to four is five to eight, whether two-and-a-half fifths is five eights, since the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro had to reserve on such an answer, could the Minister who is an engineer answer that question? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, we have 25 guests from Red River College in the balcony. They can answer it better than the Member for Inkster, I think. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, apparently they can answer it better than the Minister of Energy and Resources. But, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that he has referred to the students who are in attendance, I guess he would confirm that two-and a-half fourths being five-eights could be classified as school boy arithmetic. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. I di rect this question to the Minister of Agriculture. Mr.

Speaker, in light of the weather conditions and the announcement that he has made in the last few days, can he assure that the measures he previously announced are adequate to deal with the recent predictions and that we will be dealing with cooperation in terms of inter-governmental affairs rather than jockeying for positions as we did last year? MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, there has been a sincere attempt to deal with all issues between the two di fferent levels of government and the agencies and organizations set up to deal with the situations that develop, to do with the agricu ltural ind ustry and one of those organizations is the PFRA organization which have got ongoing programs and are doing a drought proofing study for this particular province. In addition, Mr.

Speaker, I may also add that there have been discussions between the dif ferent levels of go vernment and I am confident that those discussions will hopefully work out a longer term resolution to the working cooperativeness within the government to support, and that I think has to be the main objective that is sometimes forgotten by some of the politicians and the members opposite as well as some of those elected in Ottawa, that they appear to, at certain times, try to benefit their own polit ical being instead of benefit the farmers of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. MR . URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad that the Minister is in his usual cooperative spirit in the way he is answering the questions. Mr. Speaker, is the government considering undertaking any long-term

_ _ ___ _ _ _ ___ ___ T_uesday , 7 April, 19 81 programs and measures to deal with the erCision of soil that we have witnessed in the last few da1•s. both in Manitoba and in Western Canada? Wh at considerations are they undertaking in this re�1ard? MR. DOWNEY : Mr. Speaker, as the menber is aware as most people within the farm community, yesterday was the first day in which we saw I!Xtreme soil drifting throughout Western Canada. We had seen some areas earlier on in specific areas, mainly the Portage area, where some of the heavier soils were drifting. One of the things, Mr.

Speaker, I would lik e to indicate at this particular time and that, of course, is the availab ility of the crop im. urance program in which farmers have the opportunity to enter into to protect themselves on an all-risl' basis. As far as the actual protection against soil jrifting, there is very little that can be done other than some stirring up of the soils with fresh cultivation or with the spreading of barnyard manure or straw that may be available.

Now I am sure that the farmer� .. being the type of people they are, will carry ou I those practices without the government directing tt at they do that and I would encourage that in fact tt at take place. But given a day like yesterday, Mr. Speaker, there is very little that anyone can do with the kinds of conditions that were created because of the severe winds that came from the Saskatchewan and Al berta bounda ry through to this part of the province.

It has a devas tating effect <m the agricultural community; however, it has only been one day and I would think that if we're gi�en any amount of moisture or any calming of the weather, which appears to be taking place today, WE: would hope that we wouldn't see many more of those kinds of days. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Sp eaker, could the Minister indicate, in light of the severe cash flow and credit situation position that many farmers are in and the seriousness of the present predictions insofar as this year is concerned, can the Minister advise whether he is prep ared to bring forward moratorium legislation? MR.

DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I indicated last year our opposition on debt moratorium legisla tion. I felt that there was a good relationship built up between the agricultural industry and the banking industry, that in fact we did meet with the banking industry and indicated to them our feelings, that we did not feel they should put undue pressure on the farm community or in fact give them an opportunity to have some more time to pay their bills ar d their debts. The same policy, Mr. Speaker, was ap Jiied to the Manitoba Agriculture Credit Corporation and at this time, Mr.

Speaker, I do not think it would be in the best interests of the farm community to bring in debt moratorium legislation. I think it woulc cause long-term difficulties for the relationship between the agricultural community and the banking ind ustry, which I have indicated has been built up vmy well over the past few years. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is add ressed to the Honourable Minister 2484 of Health. Can the Minister advise the House when

Section 26 of Bill 85,

An Act to amend The Mental Health Act, will be proclaimed? This

section requir es the Board to review the status of every patient in a psychiatric facility within 12 months after admission and at least annually. Acc ording to the Ombudsman's Report, this is not being proclaimed. When will it be proclaimed, please? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. l.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr . Speaker, I can't give the honourable member a definite date on that.

As di scu ssed during my Estimates, we have machi nery in motion at the present time esta blishing the mental health review boards and panels that have to be put in place, familiarizing certain personnel with the procedures that will be involved, looking for the psychiatrists that will have to be hired to serve in those capacities. There's a certain amount of money in my budget this year to provide for that initial development and until that's completed, we will not be proclaiming the sect ion of the Act; it may be some months time yet, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Following up on ques tions put forwar d by my colleague from St. George to the Minister of Agriculture, since the Minister has suggested that farmers could avail themselves through the crop insurance in the event of the continuation of drought, I would ask the Minister if he could advise if all outstanding claims, last year's claims, under the Crop Insurance Program have been settled and have payments been forwarded at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, no, I cannot, but I'll take that question as notice and get the specific details on the payouts. I have, however, been informed that the payout this year has been again adjusted upward and it would appear now as if it will be in excess of $50 million, but I will get the specifics on that particular question. MR. ADAM: Yes, a supplementary question to the Minister.

I would ask the Minister if he could advise whether he is prepared to respond to the questions put to him during his Estima tes in regard to claims under the Feed Program, where crops were insured under the crop insurance but were transferred to the Green Feeds Program, and later these crops were lost because of flooding? The Minister has not responded to these questions that were put forward in his Estimates. I wonder if he is prepared now to respond to that particular item. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I will check on the specific questions.

I felt I had responded to the majority of them and I will take as notice his question and get the answers that he has requested. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose with a final supplementary.

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, to the Minister of Agriculture, to ask the Minister if there are any claims outst anding on the Gr een Feed Program, as well as the crop insurance? Have all those claims that have been rejected and appealed, if those claims have been satisfied to the people, the claimants, and also ask the Minister if he feels there will be a problem in regard to feed for dairies at this particular time? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I will also take the question on the green feed payouts as notice.

I could indicate to the member that the dairy feed situation has not changed. We reported earlier on, I guess from last September forward, that in fact there were sufficient quantities of roughage available within the provi nce but, in fact, the qua lity factor was of qu estion for the dair y ind ustry and they have indicated, as I have indicated to the public, that has been the major dif ficulty and that has been quality alfalfa feeds or feeds of adequate quality to get top milk production from the dairy herds. So, Mr.

Speaker, that hasn't changed, because we haven't had an opportunity to grow a new crop of alfalfa in this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, my question is dir ected to the Minister of Hea lth. Does the government have firm re gu lations in place concerning the dis posal of unwanted drugs or medici nes by doctors' offices, hospitals, nursing homes, pharmacies, or other facil ities that stock drugs or medicine? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: I believe the answer to the question is yes, Mr.

Speaker, but I'll have to take the question as notice. MR. PARASIUK: A supple mentary to the Minister. I wou ld like him then to immed iately launch an invest igation into a situation that has arisen in Transcona whereby a school has sent parents a letter yesterday informing them that a particular medical group located near the school saw childr en rummaging in the garbage cans outside of that medical group and there was the possibility that some childr en may have taken di scarded pills or medicines from these containers.

In view of the fact that the Minister says he expects that they have regulations in place, could he please investigate this very serious breach of those regulations, if they do in fact exist? MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will investigate the whole incident or alleged incident that has been raised by the Member for Transcona. MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nourable Mem ber for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I'll send the letter from the school to the Minister to help his investigations and I'd like him to immediately issue instructions.

I would ask then if he would immediately issue instructions to 2485 all health facilities stocking drugs or medicine, that if they have unwanted, unusable drugs or medicines tha t might be disp osed of, that these not be di sposed of through putting these things in outside garbage containers, whereby they might be raided by chil dren or other people looking for drugs or medicines. Will he issue that immedia te emergency instruction to these health facilities? MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think that the action that's called for in this instance is predi cated on the results of the investigation that I will carry out. I took the initial qu estion from the Honour able Member for Transcona as notice, which indicates, as all members know, that I cannot confirm that precise regulations are in place, but I believe it to be the case. If they are in place, then I would think that makes the request that the Member for Transcona has just made academic, but certainly I will look into the situation and I will certainly investigate the specific incident to which he has alleged. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Minister of Transportation. HON. DON ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Approxima tely two weeks ago, the Member for Churchill had made some inquiries as to when the Mediv ac Ai rcraft would be in service, and I'm pleased to tell him that we have had the aircraft functioning for the past week, or a little better and has made several medic al evacuat ions and furthermore, Mr.

Speaker, as I discus sed with the Member for Churchill, upon final advice from the Department of Finance, we did not enter the lease arrangement as I indicated to him, but exercised the purchase of that aircraft already. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to di rect my question to the Honourable Minister of Education.

Has the Minister appointed his, I belie ve he called it "an advisory committee", to review the effect of his new education funding scheme, which appointment he had prom ised to make in his meeting with the Dau phin-Ochre School Board a couple of weeks ago? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS: (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, not as yet. MR. HANUSCHAK: Could the Minister indic ate when he plans to appoint the review committee? MR. COSENS: Soon, Mr. Speaker. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Could the Minister indicate what the terms of reference will be of the committee and whether it would an in-house committee or appointed from the citizenry of the province. MR. COSENS : That's why it will be soon, Mr . Speaker, we're developing those terms of reference.

TL1esday, 7 April, 1981 MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Mem Jer for Church ill. MR. JAY COWAN: Mr. Speaker, firstly I'd like to thank the Minister of High ways for the inforrr ation, it was indeed welcome news. I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of Labour and I would ask the Minister quite simply wh<tl action his department is taking in respect to the suspected cadmium poisoning cases of workers in industry in the city, cad mium poisoning cases which are suggested relate to occupational exposure Jf silver solderers in that industry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON.

KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Bpeaker, yo u'll have to excuse me, there was some talk around me at the time. Coul d you repeat the question please? MR. COWAN: The question to the Minis·:er was, what action is his department taking in re:;pect to suspected cad mium poisoning cases among silver solder workers at an industry within the city? MR. MacMASTER: I should be able to report what the department is doing in that regard Within the next few days, Mr. Speaker. MR.

COWAN: If the Minister is taking the question as notice, I'd ask the Minister as well to check with his department to determine why it is it took over one year for the department to make any significant approach to the industry in respect to complaints which had arisen from workers at that in :lustry a year previously? Would he as well check mto that and come back with information as to why there was that sign ificant and what would appear to be unnecessary time lag? MR. MacMASTER: I'll take that question HS notice and the suggest ions that were made ir it, Mr. Speaker. MR.

COWAN: I would also ask the Minister if he is prepared to dir ect his Carcinogen Stud y Group within his department to investigate this situation, as there is some suspicion that cancer cases may be in fact related to occupational expo sures at that particular opera tion. There has been one cancer case which has been confirmed and there is another worker there who has been diagn osed as having pre cancer cells in her larynx which might be, might be and 1 emphasize that, associated with occupational exposures.

Is he prepared to dir ect the Carcinogon Study Gr oup with the department to undertake an investigation to determine if there is in tact, any relationship in respect to cadmium exposurE' in those suspected cancers? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I can assure you and the House that when I have a report from my department I'll be in a better position to c iscuss it. I'm no t in a position right now to discus s that particular incident. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mernber for Elmwood. 2486 MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to di rect a question to the Minister of Urban Affairs and ask him whether he has made a careful study of the impact of the new Education Support Program on municipal governments in general, and the City of Winnipeg in particular, especially because it may leave little or no tax room for municipal governments and secondly, may bleed the City of Winnipeg dry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIE R (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, firstly, let me say my respo nsibility as Minister of Urban Affairs is solely with respect to the City of Winnipeg , not with respect to other municipalities. Mr. Speaker, I'd be pleased to go into the kind of detail the member is referring to during my Estimates. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd ask the Minister whether he can indicate whether the government will be providing addit ional tax rel ief to Manitoba taxpayers by enriching their property tax rebates? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, that is a question which should be put to the Minister of Finance. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Elmwood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr . Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister, perhaps he would answer this question; given the special needs and problems of the capital city, would he prepared to provide Winnipeg with greater access to provincial growth taxes? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Sp eaker, they have already been given that access. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WEST BURY: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, my question is addressed to the Honourable Minister of Health, and follows some questions I asked him in April of 1980, relative to the drug Darvon. At that time 1 was asking, Mr.

Speaker, about al leged dangerous qualities of the drug and in view of the fact that the United States Food and Drug Admi nistration has now chastized the manufacturers for not adequately warning physicians of the serious injury or death that can follow if Darvon is taken with alcohol or other drugs or in excessive quantities, will the Minister be looking towards some kind of informational program with the Phar maceutic al Associa tion or any other kind of information program, Mr. Speaker, in order to advise the public of the dangers of this drug? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, ess entially this type of thing is being done no w by the Manitoba Pha rmaceutical Assoc iation and by the medical pro fession itself. The Mani toba Pharma ceut ical Association has launched a program of its own for advice to customers and consumers with respect to non-prescription drugs and the Medical Association in concert with our Drug Standards and Therapeutics Committee is working very diligently to present the

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 message and make the case for prese nting the messages as broadly as possible to the public that there are serious side effects from admixtures of drugs and alcohol. That effort is under way. Certainly we are trying to intensify and extend it as broadly as possible. MS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that Darvon can be addictive and is also said to be second only to barbitur ates amongst prescription drugs associated with suicides, I wonder if the Minister would give some special attention to this particular drug and make some enquiries among his department and the Pharmaceutical Association as to whether special attention should be given to this particular drug. MR. SHERMAN: Well, I can certainly do that, Mr. Sp eaker.

I would like though to reas sure the honourable member that the policing, the assess ment, the evaluation of prescri ption drugs and their use in Manitoba is very rigidly monitored by the Drug Standards and Therapeutics Committee. I think that this province is extremely well served by the kinds of judgmental decisions that are made in this field, but I can certain ly ask a qu estion about Darvon. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Labour.

Several months ago I brought to his attention the matter of Trojan Security treating some of its emp loyees as independent contractors and he indicated about a month ago that he agreed that those people in fact were emplo yees. I am just wondering what he has done since then to ensure that those people are being compensated at least on a minimal basis in accordance with our payment of wages and other emp loyee laws. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, the last I heard of that situation was that it was proceeding to the Labour Board. MR. SCHROEDER: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister. Can he advise as to wha t his department is doing to ensure that former emp loyees who might be eligible for further wage benefits are being notified by his department of their right? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. -Speaker, I think the outcome of the Labour Board decision should be heard first. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Rossmere with a final supplementary. MR. SCHROEDER: Could the Minister advise as to the amount of wages that company had been paying to the se so-cal le d independent contractors, per hour? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further to the questions posed to the Mi nister of Ur ban Affairs by my 2487 colleague, the Mem ber for Elmwood, can the Minister of Urban Affairs advise whether or not he has as of yet responded to the brief which he received from the City of Winnipeg pertaining to municipal taxation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, we have a meet ing with the city's official delegation this coming Tuesday morning at which time that will be a matter to be dis cussed with city officials. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Memb er for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would lik e to ask the Minister of Finance whether the government will be providing additional tax relief to Manitoba taxpayers by enriching the Property Tax Rebate Program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Finance. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Kill arney): Mr . Speaker, when we have assessed that situation and feel that some adjustment in property tax credit is required, the adjustment will be made. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, in the event of that occurrence, will the Minister be sending a letter to each and every Manitoba taxpayer indicating that any beneficial program is courtesy of the Progr essive Conservative Party rather than the government? MR. RANSOM: I thank the honourable member for that suggestion, Mr. Speaker, and he knows that it is my practise to be consistent with the facts. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Hono urable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I should indicate that the time for Question Period having expired we will proceed with Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources that, Mr. Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolv ed itself into a Commit tee with the Honourable Member for Ra.Qjsson in the Chair for the Department of Education and the Hon ourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. CONCU RRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY

Tuesday, 7 April, 19 81 SUPP LY - NATURAL RESOUR C:ES CHAIRMAN, Mr. Morris McGregor (Virden) DEP UTY CH AIRMAN, Mr. Len Domuno (St. Matthews): I believe the Committee is di scussing 5.(aX 1) - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minister if he has any opening corr ments to make. He did ind icate in one of his dis cus:;ions last night that he would be providing us with details on the new and innovative and expanding initiatives of his department in each of the areas.

Penaps this would be an opportunity for him to let us kr1ow what, if any, initiativ es he has in the budget, in his Estima tes, in the area of park development. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, the easy way would be for me to refer the honourable member to my opening statem•�nt which indeed cover ed, in capsule form, some of the initiatives that the department is taking in the di fferent di visions of the de partment, I would specifically refer the honourable member to that opening statement.

But certainly, in part, I suppose the fundamental dif fere nce betwe en thi s government's approach in Parks developm•mt within a particular park that has received a considerable amount of atte ntion, namely the Whiteshell, and that of the previous admin istration, is that the honourable mem ber referred several time s in his comments about the Whiteshell implying that they h<td a plan for the Whiteshell. Mr. Chairman, I am the first one to suggElst to you that 1 do not come into office with a plan for the Whiteshell.

I have charged the responsible persons in the department, namely the Parks Division, under the dir ection of Mr. Derek Doyle, to develop with the current park users, potential and future pari< users, a master plan for the full utilization and ma:<im ization of the opportunities within that great provir cial park.

That certainly is proceeding with; it has gone through several phases, but in each instance I want to empha size, and I do this particularly because of the concern that a number of people and inter ested groups and parties have with respect to whatever decisions are made with respect to the Whiteshell, that they should be well advised that there is no accepted laid-down hard-and -fast plan that the admin istration to date has accepted with re spect to the Whiteshell.

It is my hope and it was the hope of the de partment that this next phase of the recommendations or suggestions with respect to the Whiteshell would be available any time now. I am advised that that is still the case, that Phase 2, and my terminology may not be correct, further results of the studies to date will be made public within a matter of weeks.

They will then be di scussed again with interested parties as to further refi nement and it's at that point where recommendations will be made to me, to the government, with respect to the adoption of specific change s to I he park management, additions, in practice or whate ver the plan calls for.

In addition to that, I think one of the more interesting ones. although perhaps overlool:ed by the honourable members in the opening remar ks when I 2488 introduced the Estimates, is the plans that we have for the development of what we call the Assiniboine River Corridor and a linear park along the banks of the Assiniboine River. Many natural and historical recreational features of the Assiniboine River could be woven into a recrea tional corridor through a series of trails, access points, resting areas.

Initially the plan will focus on the Brandon-Spruce Woods sections, but ultimately Ases sippi-Beaudry Park will be connected to this linear water and trail parkway. Priv ate sector partici pation at intermediate and destination nodes will be encouraged at providing services to travellers. At the Portage Diversion, opportunities for outdoor recre ation, in particular fishing and water sports, have been enhanced as a result of the earlier water control measures on the Ass iniboine River near Portage Ia Prairie. These will be examined and work should commence later this year.

Proposals under consi deration include the development of a swimming pond, picnic and fountain area, as well as improved access for sail and power boats. This facility will be developed in consultation with local officials and in a manner which will complement opportunities available at Island Park and elsewhere. One that is an initiative and is of interest to me and I'm sure to the Honourable Member for St. George, is that we have started in a very preliminary way to examine fea sibility of possible developments on the east shore of Lake Mani toba.

I feel particularly that water body has been underutili zed from a recreat ional point of view. We have the one excellent facility of St. Ambr ose, which is heavily taxed during the periods of summer recreat ion, but I know that the honourable member will pass on that informa tion to his colleague the Member for St. George, who has an interest in what happens in or about Lake Maniooba. Mr. Chairman, I can repeat , but I would be breaking the rules of the committee that I studiously attempt to follow if I were to repeat and read into the record what has already been recorded.

I only draw to the honour able mem bers' atten tion to avail themselves to these very enlightening, educational opening comments that were made by myself at the time the Estimates were introduced. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the Minister certainly provides entertainment, as my colleague has said from his seat. The first point he is making about the planning in parks is not somet hing which I think the P.C. Government should hold up to the public as a matter of success. The Parks Department has had to suffer under the three Ministers of the P.C. Government since they were elected.

They have never had a consistent policy which the public could comment on. In fact, I believe this government has operated in a policy vacuum with respect to Parks. It has taken three years for the government to even get to the stage of nearing completion on the first master plan for one park and what I indicated in my remarks the other day in response to the Minister's statement is that the New Democratic Party Government had a zoning plan, something which the public could look at and comment on with respect to the Whiteshell Park . It was one which had been worked on by various go vernment de partments.

It took into account various resource uses within the park.

Tuesday, 7 April, 19 81 Mr. Chairman, it's something which the present government threw out the window, I believe, and never did even bother to try to work with . It's some thing which has been detrimental to the development of parks, I believe, and it's no secret in the Province of Manitoba that people generally are very suspicious of the Prog ressive Conservative Government with respect to their attitude towards parks. There seems to be a pre-occupation with overdev elopment.

That Jarmoc incident, I think sticks in people's minds as something which epitomizes the Co nservative attitude towards parks, very little concern for the environment and more concern for the developer, very little concern for people, more concern for the private investor who wants to make a big buck off of our natural parks. So, Mr. Chairman, I don't think that the Progressive Conservative record, with respect to park deve lopment, is anyt hing to hold up and pretend to be proud of. With respect to New Initiatives, I do not see any major new initiatives, other than promises which the government is making.

I haven't seen any really new developments in park development over the last few years, and I would ask the Minister, with respect to one of his statements, in specific terms on page 6 of his statement, he claims that as a result of increasing demand for transient camping opportunities in the eastern region of the province, $300,000 has been allocated for the construction of a campgrou nd. I'd ask him where this campground is to be located and what fea sibility has been worked out, with respect to this campground.

Has it been determined that this is something which is absolutely needed - page 6, the last paragraph of your comments on parks. MR. ENNS: Are you referring to the Annual Report? MR. BOSTROM: No, the opening statement. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'd advise that that would be principally in the eastern region, near Nopiming. I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that final site selection is now being undertaken, dependent on engineering studies as to suitability of the lay of the land, etc. MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, the second question with respect to that then and I believe the Minister indicated it is in the Nopiming Park, and I would ask him if they are taking into consideration the concerns of the wildlife people, with respect to the caribou herd that's in that area, because there were some lakes that I believe, were considered to be off-limits for any kind of intensive development because of a caribou herd which tend to have their young in that

part icular area, and biolo gi sts at the time, several years ago, were reco mmending that there be no campgrounds or cottage development, or in fact not even an access road for vehicles into one or two lakes in that area because of that concern. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I should indicate that is being very much considered. I am further advised that some of the sites in question are actually located outside of the park in what would be conside red the Lac du Bonnet area, for additional campsites. But, Mr.

Chairman, I am not particularly happy to leave on the record the gene ral condemnation made by the Honourable Member for Ru pertsland about the Progressive Cons ervative go vern ment's record with respect to parks development. I appreciate the youthfulness of the member and I do not wish to put on the record my age, but there was probably no period, no decade, that saw more attention paid, more parks development unde rtaken by a Progr essive Conservative government as occurred dur ing the Sixties.

To name just thr ee major park developments, one that occurred at the time that our present Premier was Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, namely Birds Hill, very accessible to the half million residents of Winnipeg , the Birds Hill Park which was not an easy park to develop on settled land, as it were; the startup of the Spruce Woods Park which is blossoming forth into becoming a major park institution in the Province of Manitoba; and of cou rse the developments related to the Shellmouth Dam Project in which a fine park facility, the Asessippi Park has been developed. I need not be lectured, Mr.

Chairman, about this government's willingness and its dedication to parks development and its appr eciation of parks development. I believe a single incident taken out of context should not allow that record to be in any way marred. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister is reaching way back into the records to attempt to get some credibility for the present government. We are talking the present go vernment, not the Progressive Conservative government of the Roblin era.

The Minister may be correct in that some very useful and productive progressive work was done in the area of park development but that has not characterized the acute protracted restraint attitude and policy of the Lyon government. So I think we are talking about two absolutely di fferent processes.

With respect to the Prog ressive Conservative government under Premier Lyon and his Cabinet I belie ve that park development has stagnated and, in particular, I think that there is a definite degree of mistrust that's been developed in the population of Manitoba toward the present government and their attitude toward parks. I think tha t the present Minister has to live down certain comments that he made with respect to cottagers who live and have cottages in the Whiteshell.

When it was suggested in de bate I think the Minister may recall tha t the cottagers in that area were concerned about the proposed development on the Little Whiteshell Lake impacting on a lake which is already considered to be pretty well developed, pretty well at the saturation stage. The Minister made the comment that I think he has to live with that the cottagers in that area were simply fat cats anyway and didn't have to be reckoned with.

So I think that is something that the cottagers in that area didn' t take very lightly, and I think that the cottagers who, by and large, for the orginal builders of cotta ges in pla ces like Grand Beach, the Whiteshell Park and other areas where, by and large, working people, people who went out on weekends and holida ys and worked with whatever materials they could scrounge together and built themselves a cabin in the wilde rness and were proud of their efforts. The y take exception to those kinds of remarks from the Minister of Resources and take 2489

TlJesday, 7 April, 1981 ----------------------------- except ion to the gover nment's attitude towards development in parks which tend to err I think on the side of overdev elopment. I think that's the fear that's in people's minds, and it's a mistrust and distrust which this government, if they expect to gain the confidence of people, are going to have to oHercome.

I know I went to a meet ing at the Health 3ciences Centre where the present Director of Parks was making his presentation with respect to 1 he park planning that's taking place in the Whitesllell, and there was a general feel ing in that meeting, even though they respected and were quite pleased with the presentation that the di rector was making, there was still an underlying current of distrust cS to the government 's intentions with respect to 1 he park development.

I think they finally had to have another meeting after that before they were able to wring out of this government a definite statement that there would not be Jarmoc-type cond •)m inium development on that Little Whiteshell Lake; it took three years to get that kind of a back down, a reversal in policy on the part of this gove1 nment. I think that one incident epitomizes the prot lem that people see with respect to this government.

I think the Minister, if he expects to regain the confidence of Manitobans who want to enjoy the benefits of our parks, is going to have to c:ome out with some pretty definite pol icy stat eme nts with respect to park development and not rest on his laurels and say one of these days we are going to come around with a master park plan for the Whiteshell and after that we will work on the next one.

If this government happened to be around for 20 years, which I'm sure it won't be, they may end up with a park policy that people can unden;tand but right now I don't belie ve the government haH a policy which the people can really identify with and say, yes. we think the government is going in the right dir ection with park planning and park development. They are simply not convinced and they are certainly distrustful. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member is exercising his prerogative to express his concerns about the current management of parks pol1cy within the government of Manitoba.

I can only reitnrate that we are working dili gently to bring about a reasoned compr ehens ive parks program that will not necessarily always meet all interests, and lhere are many interests involved. The particular interests that he speaks about, the cottage owners, we are very aware of. They are probably among lhe best organized of the various interest groups r �I alive to our park situation and certainly have had a very free and open access to departmental official> and to myself in pressing their views as to what thny believe ought to. or ought not to happen in the context of Manitoba parks.

We have assessed limitations of growth in all our recreat ional lakes. These will be adherred to.

A comment that the honourable member attributes to me, which is correct and I don't deny that I haven't made, but I also suggest to him th<ll there is to some extent a certain feeling borne by those. who 1 don't deny perhaps had first access to some of these desired sites and lakes, and now wish to see no other development take place at all because they are in a position, a favoured position if y c•u like, to enjoy that particular uniqueness of nature in a lovely setting in a Provincial Park. 2490 I am satisfied that the dir ection that we'r e proceed ing with, the kind of intensive staff work that's being engaged in, the very inde pth consultative process that is occurring, that I can assu re and have so assu red , various dif ferent interested parties that there will not be any hasty act ion, any rushing into deve lopment for development sake, but a planned and well reasoned out program that will facilitate the many div erse interests and needs that Manitobans have come to expect and hope to enjoy well into the futur e.

Certainly I intend to be around in the year 1994 to make sure that that's taking place. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRM AN: The Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I think the Minister could easily be around. He might not be in a Minister capacity but he'll probably be around. First of all I'd like to start out with one very specific quest ion.

I got a call from a constituent yesterday from The Pas and this person is a high school student who's trying to line up her summer employment, and she applied to the Parks Branch last year and she applied again this year, and the answer she got from them was, well we hire people from Winnipeg first. For some reason the branch hires people from Winnipeg first before they hire northerners, and there's some recollection in my mind that two or three years ago in the early stages of this government, there was a similar problem that I raised with the Minister at that time.

I'm not sure how much the Minister wants to comment, but I would like him to invest ig ate to see in fact, if northern people, northern students are getting preference in summer jobs with the parks branch and we're not bringing in people from other areas of the province up north, when there's people up north looking for these jobs. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would have to ask the honourable member for specific details of the incidents that he refers to. I simply cannot accept the fact that even without me being totally aware of it, that would or could be departmental policy.

If the person is qualified for the job, we would naturally want to give preference to the locale where the job site is being made avai lable, thus if it precludes the department from having housing problems and additional costs associated with providing an outsider, if you like, to that job site. Furthermore, I can assure the honourable member that living with the - as I have to - with the Honourable Member for Thompson, for instance, and from other rural parts of the province, that kind of Winnipeg-fir st policy simply wouldn't wash .

Now, there may be a specific situation that the honourable member refers to where a person applying for a job is not qualified for the particular job and somebody applying for the job from Winnipeg was qualified for the job and that person was hired. But those would have to be the circumstances that would bring that kind of situation about. 1 think throughout, not just in the Parks Branch but where possi ble, certa inly whether it's from my previous experience with the Department of Hig hways and the Department of Agricultur e,

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 particularly summer-type jobs, casual jobs, term emplo yment jobs where avai lable and needed in different outlying parts of the province, an effort will always be made to hire persons living in the area. MR. BOSTROM: I'll give the Minister some specific details on that particular case. My recollection is that a few years ago one of the problems might have been that some preference was given to university students over high school students. Of course, since there is no university up north, it would prejudice people from the north in terms of gett ing that employment. Anyway, I would ask the Minister:

(1) I will give him the details of the specific case but I would like him to dou blecheck with his department in terms of the overall hiring and what is happening in northern Manitoba. The other

part is that the Minister's opening statement doesn't mention any new developments or major developments in the north, I don't believe.

I wonder if he could probably start in the most important area first and tell me what's proposed in terms of Clearwater Lake and also wayside parks on the new Easter ville No. 6 and No. 10 road, which the Minister is quite familiar with from his previous portfolio; then if he could expand to other area in the north where there has been a req uir ement for wayside parks, especially on the new roads that were built under the previous government and the parks development hadn't kept pace with the rapid rate of construction that was taking place, and if there are any new plans or proposals in that regard. MR.

ENNS: Mr. Chairman, these kind of details, I would again invite the honourable member to seek dir ectly from me or from my officials. I can indicate to him that a general upgr ad ing, an addition to facilities at Clearwater Park are being planned with respect to additio nal trails, shel ter-type gl ob e shelters. There are some additional improvements to the Troy Lake facility being planned; some cross country ski trails are being put in place at Clearwater, again; another shelter building at Hugo Bay.

These kind of general improvements are being effected not only in the northern parks but in other parks as well. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairperson, this information is normally available in the Minister's book in some detail in terms of what is happening, so I would ask if either he or the person ·beside him could glance at tha t page and see if the re is anything specific planned in terms of the Easterville Road and then to go up onto the Lynn Lake Road and the Norway House Road and the Split Lake Road, and see if there are any specific plans on those new roads. MR.

ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that there are no specific plans at this time in the coming year for the Easterv ille Road, to answer the mem ber directly. I should indicate, as I am just being advised, that the capital projects are covered under the final item of Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets in the Estimates, which includes as well the capital projects 2491 which I was asked about yesterday, involving water resources, drainage programs throughout Manitoba.

That list will be available - I think I ind icated yesterda y tha t it would be avai lable sometime tomorrow, if we get into Estimates tomorrow, but certainly for Thursday morning. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)( 1) Salaries - pass; 5.(a)(2) - pass; 5.(b) (1) - pass; 5.(b)(2) pass; 5.(c)( 1) - pass; 5.(c)(2) - pass; 5.(d)( 1) The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister ind icate what is happening with respect to the wayside park situation at the Fairford River, Mr. Chairman? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that a lease is currently being negotiated with a Mr.

Warren to manage the facility and I would take it that the lease provision is such that it will also encourage him to expand faciliti es along with our assistance. Technically, the leasing arrangement comes under the Crown Lands Division. The wayside park is located on Crown lands. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated "with our assistance." Can he elaborate on that statement? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I perhaps was not correct in suggesting financial assistance, other than assisting him in the acquiring of the land lease. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, who will assume the capital investment that has already been put into the property that is already there? Is that going to be part of the lease rate since there was a wayside park; although there were no camping facilities, there was a picnic area that was there and access was not provided to residents bey ond, or participants or users beyond a fence line that the department had fenced off for people who wanted to fish in the lake.

There were many complaints when that area beyond the wayside park was leased and people were req uired to pay lease rentals when, in fact, the property was originally leased to one of the local farmers for hay purposes. Now, what happened to that lease? Was that lease remov ed from the individual who had the haying rights of that area? What's the background on that, Mr. Chairman? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, those further questions respect ing the dis position of Crown leases, could perhaps best be di scussed when we deal with the issue of Crown lands and more specifically to the questions of the situation with the lease that is being arranged for the maintenance in the carrying on of the public facility that is there.

My understanding is that the lessor agrees to the lease that he will maintain the public facilities at acceptable level and continue to provide and make them available for use by the general public as well as we're informed that he has intentions of adding private accommodations in addition to the public ones that are part of that lease arrangement. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the pu blic facilities that are there, is the Minister

TLt esday, 7 April, 1981 indicating that those facilities will be availabl·� to the public as they have in the past at no cost in terms of the picnic grounds and the area that may be set up for camping and tenting beyond this area would be su bject to a rental fee? Am I correct in that assumption? MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The area that's immedia tely adjacent to the highway has been the highway or the wayside stopping facility, <:amping facility, will continue to be available to the pJ blic on the same basis that has been he case up till now. Pardon me.

I'm being advised not for camping opportunities but for use by the travelling public as a wayside park or stopping point; picnic area is perhaps the better di scription. The Mem ber is correct that the camping facilities would then fall under the private jurisdiction of the lessor who would make them available, I assume, at rental rates to the motoring public. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, could the 1.1inister indicate since the lessor already does have a site, 1 believe, a mile or so from the present site in •. e rms of a tourist resort facility, why the province itself would not have expanded the se facilities since there is already that same entrepreneur does have a facility in the area within that same vicinity. Why would we now allow the entire area to be handled by one individual? What's the rationale behind tl lat, Mr. Chairman? MR. ENNS: Well Mr.

Chairman, I suppose if the public investment at the existing wayside pctrk were to be developed in a more fuller and expan:;ive way we would very like ly cause the dem ise of the pers on's busi ness you just des cribed. It would probably jeopardize his business. It was deemed advisable to utilize his management capabil ties, his expertise in running and providing the motoring public with two facilities in that area. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'd like it confirmed that there has been a problem with respect to the original site and that's primarily the reason that this was done.

My understanding is that in addition to this site that the local band had, and I'm not sure how far it is, had planned a commercial facility in terms of motels and the like near the rivor which would add to the existing investment which, if it's going ahead, would shed some different ligllt and a dif fering opinion from what the Minister has fJrovided us in terms of the viability of the existing operator. The point that I'm making is if the operator presently was going under in terms of his original foe ation, is that solely the reason that this was de ne, Mr. Chairman? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the department had experienced difficulties with the management of the wayside picnic grounds and indeed to try to resolve some of them the person involved was contacted and asked to assume the additional managnment of the public wayside facility as wel l as under the condition that we enter into a lease th<tt would provide him with some additional lands adjacent to the facility. I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that his application for this bit of land dates back to 1974. Of course, it was 2492 a policy of the then administration not to consider too kindly applications of this kind.

It had to be government or nobody at all and that's simply not the policy of this government. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I ask the Minister since his application was in since '74 and since he's given us that information for the Crown land, what type of leases and who had leased the property in that area prior to that and for what length of time? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I would have to undertake to answer that qu estion on another occassion and have the staff be given some time to get the necessary details. MR. URUSKI: The other question, Mr. Chairman, with respect to this if the Minister is getting the details.

I'm assuming that the land was being utilized for agricultural purposes and it's a water area, I believe it was a water resources right-of-way that we are talking about and it was leased for haying purposes for a number of year. Were alternatives provided to the lessor in terms of a di fferent area for haying purposes once those leases were taken away or moved to the new individual, Mr. Chairman? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it's my understanding that the particular land involved was not under any form of lease. I won't quarrel with the Honourable Member for St. George who is more familiar with the area than I am.

The land may well have been hayed but the member is also aware that us farmers and ranchers up there, we have a tendency once in while to hay on land whether we own it or not or whether we pay the Crown any lease for it. If we can get away with it, we'll do it. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'm not so sure that farmers of the Interlake and the Minister would want to probably change his statement or have wanted to get something for nothing in terms of the suggestion that the Minister has made if cattle should somehow stray and .. MR. ENNS: On a point of order. I already want to change my statement. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, how long is this land being leased to this individual now and what size of an area are we talking about? MR. ENNS: I'm advis ed that the lease is for a 21- year period. The actual size is not yet determined. MR. URUSKI: Is it a possibility that the lease will carry on along the north side of the Fairford River up to the property that the individual we are speaking about, now owns property. Is that a likelihood? MR. EN NS: Mr. Chairman, at the start of this discussion I indicated that we were in the process of entering into a lease with this particular individual.

The lease has not been completed, I'm advised by staff that the party involved will be approaching the department within the next few days, or weeks, to conclude and finalize the lease arrangements. The information I'v e attempted to give to the committee is not finalized at this point. It would be the policy of

Tuesday, 7 April, 19 81 the department to provide a 21-year lease, the actual size of the property to be described on that lease has yet to be dete rmined, and I would assume that would involve the question as well, that the member just placed, as to whether or not it would involve land on the north side of the river. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, under what leasing arrangement did the operator run the property during the year of 1980? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, he was operating simply under an annual permit, with no long -term commitments made. MR.

URUSKI: So there was a permit issued in 1980 to give the individual authority to collect whatever fees, for whatever services he provided? MR. ENNS: That is my advice. MR. URUSKI: That's it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (dX 1) - pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: I note in the Minister's Annual Report, for the year ending March 31st, 1980, that park entr ance permits, partic ula rly the seaso nal permits, have declined substantially from 1976 and 77. In 1976 the number of seasonal permits were 49,077 or 47,698.

In 1979 for the last year on record, the permits were down to 33,448, a decrease of 14,000 in number of seasonal permits for park entrance. Could the Minister please indicate what would be the reason for this rather drastic decline? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, while there has been a general 6 percent increase in the number of campsite permits throughout the year, the park entry was reduced by some 3 percent.

The member need not be reminded that last season was a particularly disruptive one, an unprecedented number of fires, fairly restrictive travel restrictions that had to be imposed for reasons of fire suppressi on, did impact on the number of visitors to our parks. Park permits for that reason, I'm advised, were down. MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Chairman, what would be the reason for 1978 to be 14,000 lower than 1977 then, if that's the reason for 1979? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, while I wasn't the Minister at that time, but we had similar situations.

Not to the same extent, . but the member will recall that 1979-80 was already a difficult year in terms of fire and I would susp ect that simila r reasons occurred. There may also have been, I'm not suggest ing, I would have to check with general tourist figu res, whether or not there was a general decline in the province as there was in many places across the country, as a res ult of increased tr avel costs, increased gasoline costs, whether that had an impact on our figures. I don't know if we have that kind of detail available. Well, Mr.

Chairman, my Parks Director confirms what I intuitively felt was the reason, namely that while there was a very substantial, in fact my Parks 2493 Dir ector who is even more descriptive than I, describes it as enormous growth during the period from early 1970-72 to 1978-79 and that growth has flattened out generally across the country, including the United States. MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Chairman, it looks more like a nosedive than a flattening out of growth, from 49,000 in 1976 to 33,000 in 1979 is not a flattening out of seasonal permits.

And the park entrance permits, the number of daily permits, seemed to have also declined. I note there is a flattening out of the provincial totals, as far as the number of cars. But even if one looks at the comparative

summary on page 127, which relates to the comparison of campground use, there appears to be a reduction there as well, from 125, 000 permits sold in 1976 to 118,000 in 1979. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, you know there are a number of different ways of looking at the figures. For instance, we found a fairly substantial increase in the number of day passes being purchased,

whereas the seasonal permits being reduced as the member indicates; one would have to analyze the statistics in greater depth to be able to ascertain precisely what took place. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (dX 1) - pass; (dX2) - pass; (eX 1) - pass; (eX2) - pass; (f) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, just before we pass that, I wonder if the Minister could advise, in veiw of the nosedive we've seen on the permits, what are the fee schedules. Has there been an increase in park fees?

Is that the reason why there are less people availing themselves to our parks because of the increase in fees that I believe was put in last year? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, in response to the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, there have been no changes in the fee structures last year and none are being contemplated for the coming year. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (eX2) - pass - the Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the Minister may be correct in what he has told the Member for Ste. Rose, however there must have been a fee increase since the P.C.

Government has had administration of parks, because the statistics in the Parks Branch indicate that even though there's been a significant reduction in the number of seasonal permits issued the revenue hasn't declined that much. So can the Minister indicate if there has been an increase over the period of Progressive Conservative Government? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , I don't have a ready answer for the honourable member other than to reiterate that I can categorically state with the supp ort of staff that there have not been fee increases in the last two years.

There are other factors of course that contribute to the downturn in park visitors, and I say quite seriously certainly the price of gasoline has had its impact on the amount of travelling by automobile that has occurred. I know the honourable member has the annual report before him. He may wish to refer to page 124

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 which practically displays the total camping permits as well as the vehicle attendance in provincial parks which tends to support what I said earlier, th � steady growth, substantial growth, from the early Seventies right through to about the year 1976, and then a decided lev elling off in some instances in thn vehicle attendance particularly which would affect 1 he park permits or entry fees, inde ed a decline. MR. BOSTROM: It appears as though the graph does not indicate, because it lumps a lot of ligures together I suppose, the significant declinn in the number of seasonal passes. That's the

part I was really questioning. If the Minister could find ,)ut from his staff if they have made any studies at a I to find out why the seaso nal passes have declined so drastically. There must be some reason for that, why there would be a decline from 47,698 for example in 1977 to 33,448 in 1979. That's quite a larg11 decline in seasonal park entrance permits. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, could the ho11ourable member indicate to me what page of the report he is referring to in reading out those? MR. BOSTROM: Page 126, Mr. Chairman. MR.

ENNS: Page 126 - I refer the Honourable Member to page 114 which indicates for in!>tance in the one area which is of course include,j in the revenue picture, where it is a comparison of angling licence sales and revenues, that there was a flat 10 percent increase in the angling licences that was put in effect in the years 1976, 1977, and that increase has been the only one that has held in place to the present year. and that <�ccounts for somo3 of the increase in the revenue that the honourable member is indicating. MR. BOSTROM: I wasn't ref erring to angling licences, Mr.

Chairman, I was refer ring to park entrance fees, and it's quite a di fferent item. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, allow me to und,�rtake to provide that information for the honourable members when next this committee meets and perhaps, Mr. Chairman, it would be an appropriate time now to pass out some of the information that I agr eed to provide to honourable members as a resul1 of their examination of the Estimates yesterday. My only comment in passing them out is that they undoubtedly will cause some further ques1 ioning.

I would invite that questioning to take place when the opportunity affords it, namely on my salary at the conclusion of my Estimates, or else we have• to start something right back to square one on some of the answers that are being provided. I provide them to the Honourable Member for Rupertsland, assuming that he will pass those on to the Honourable Member for St. George, some of them that he rnay have asked about yesterday. MR. BOSTROM: Okay, thank you. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRM AN: (e)(2) - pas ;; (f) - pass; 5 - pass.

Resolution 103, resolved tl1at there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not eJ:ceed ing, $10, 15 4, 600 for Natural Resources, Parks $10,15 4,600.00. 2494 6. Lands - Mr. Minister, do you have a comment to make? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, I think the position of the go vernment is re asonably well known with respect to the admin istration of Crown lands. The policy of the sale of Crown lands is of course still very much in effect . It principally involves the land under agricultural lease, although there are some requests being received and considered for sale of recre ational lands.

I invite the honourable members' scrutiny of this

section of my Estimates. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister by way of introduction could further elaborate on what he's asking for in terms of his programs and new initiatives in the area of lands admin istration, lands programs, for the fiscal year 1981-82. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the specific new intiative that is currently being considered and under active review - active review means that we found the file - that would hopefully satisfy more of the many requests and applications that the government is receiving for application to purchase Crown lands.

The government, I think, correctly and advisedly initiated the program with very specific conditions attached to it. I can reiterate some of them. There was of course a concern that nobody be placed in a forced position of purchase, that for many the option of leasing would continue to be one that in their estimation would be desirable. Furthermore, the concern for an orderly di spersal of these lands was of prime concern to the government and the refore only lands that had been under lease as of October 1977, over a five-year period, were being considered.

In addition to that, numerous other rest raints were placed on the sale of land, subject to the concerns that other disciplines of government, namely, Wildli fe; Department of Hig hways' concern for gravel rights; Department of Water Resources in terms of flooding impl ications on certain lands. All of these were hurd les, if you like, that a particular piece of property had to overcome prior to its being made available, upon application, for sale.

It's the opinion of myself, and certai nly sh ared by some of my caucus members, and I am being pressed as Minister at this time to review those conditions with the hope that without jeopardizing sound land management policy, some of the heretofore rest rictions can be eased or removed to make more land available for sale. We have rejected a very substantial number of the applicants who have applied for purchase of land for the reasons I have just mentioned.

That process is currently under review by what we refer to as the PLUC Committee, Planned Land Use Commit tee of Cabinet. and it's my hope that some changes to the guideli nes which we are currently operating under that cover the sale of Crown land will be in effect before too long. It may be of interest to the honourable members of the committee to have some idea of the scale of the program. In 1979, since this government policy was adopted, these are the kinds of requests and this is how they have been dealt with. To date, there have been some 1,244 parcels of land comprising of some 165,000 acres applied for.

Of those, 20 1 parcels were rejected; 597 parcels were approved for sale; 446 parcels are in the clearance process; and

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 186 parcels transferred. Revenue to date from the sale of this land amounts to some $1. 4 million. We have also, of course, embarked on a sale of recre ational lots, and this refers to recreational lots outside of the provincial parks system. In total, we have some 6,400 recreat ional lots under lease; 5,250 of these lots are in provincial parks so by far the substantial amount of these parks would not be affected by any sales policy. There are some 1,15 0 on other Crown lands.

The department is in the process of registering subdivision plans in the Land Titles Office and appraising all recreational lots to determine current market value in order that tenants of long standing will not be penal ized and in recog nition of the developmental input that they have made, the sale price to tenants will be dis counted, based on the length of time that the y have held these leases. Again, this matter is currently before Treasury Board and a policy, when decided upon, will be announced in the very near future. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister can advise me if the rental rates have increased in the last two or three years? MR. ENNS: I am advised, Mr. Chairman, that there has been no change. MR. ADAM: There was no change at all in the rental rates? What are the rental rates? Are they different MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am assuming that the honourable member is asking about agricultu ral leases on Crown land , is it? MR. ADAM: No, I am asking about the one we were just referring to and that is cottage lots on the lakes. I believe that's ... MR. ENNS: The staff advises me that there has been no change, Mr.

Chairman, and the rental rates vary from in the range of $60.00, $80.00, to $100.00 per lot. MR. ADAM: Is there a list available as to where these properties are, these lots are; we do have enquiries from time to time? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the y can be made ava ilable. There are computer printouts that can be provided to an honourable member if he should make that enquiry to the department. MR. ADAM: Then I am submitting it now. Is that satisfactory? MR. ENNS: To the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, your wish is my command. MR.

ADAM: With regard to other Crown lands, could the Minister elaborate on what is happening on Lake Winnipegosis in regard to the refusals there to sell Crown land because lake frontage Crown lands does cause concern to some residents where a 2495 neighbour may be able to buy Crown land because he is maybe half a mile off the lakeshore, or a mile; and someone who has been leasing land for a number of years would like to purchase certain Crown lands that he had been leasing and is turned down because of some program that may be under way.

Maybe the Minister has the information at his fingertips and maybe he can elaborate on what is happening there. MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman, there could be, of course, a number of reasons for a particular parcel of land being rejected for sale. I am aware that, particularly in the area he is speaking about, the Lake Winnipegosis area, I would suggest to him that the reason likely would be because of prior water right reservat ions that have been placed on those lands.

I would also want to indicate to the honourable member that these kind of lands are very much part of the review process and are undergoing that review process for reconsideration that I just mentioned a little while ago. I think a case can be made, in fact, we are pressing Water Resources to establish, with some deg ree of assuredness, whether or not those originally applied for reserves - and these are essentially Hydro reserves pla ced on lands - bordering lakes that somebody believed at some time in the future, and that's a fairly general application, Mr.

Chairman, by the way, to many lands bordering on our lakes that years ago a general hydro water reserve was placed on them. It's my belief and a belief I think that is going conviction within the department that the current policy can and ought to be relaxed, that would allow for the sale of some of these lands. However, as I ind icated this subject matter is under review and again I would hope to be in a position to make some policy statements on this matter very shortly. MR. ADAM: Yes, is there a study being undertaken in regard to Lake Winnipegosis, for the possible construction of a dam on the Waterhen River.

MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, there's no such study taking place at this time. MR. ADAM: It would probably cause panic if we get an answer in the affirmative. Some of the applicants for Crown lands have been refused on the grounds that a study is under way in regard to water reserve and until that study is completed those lands are not for sale.

Now we've heard about proposals for a dam on Lake Waterhen 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and we're looking at a dam possibly in 20 or 30 years from now, in the future and I left for a while to go down and see if I could find a copy of this letter, but I just couldn't put my fingers on it so, I'll probably run across it. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, firstly we are dealing with the ques tion of sale of Cr own lands and not returning to the debate on water resources as such, but I can understand and I can appreciate a farmer being left with that impression, that there may be some plans for some hydraulic construction or hydro requir ements in or about that area when he receives a notification that suggests to him, or tells him that

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 his application for sale has been rejected because his land lies in a hydro power reserve. ,lust the wording of the letter can leave that implication. I want to completely satisfy the honourable member that does not in any way denote any specific plans, and I can categorically state to him that ther<3 are no plans and no study being undertaken arou11d Lake Winnipegosis for these purposes.

It is pnrt of a general policy that was placed in effect ma11y years ago, I suspect it dates back to the early twE!nties or the thirties where, in a general way, lands that might have at some point in time been consid13red for potential use for storage purposes, for reservoir purposes; that might have at some point in time contemplated the raising of particular lak<� levels, bodies of water levels that the Crown then had. It's an interest protected that would enable the Crown to proceed.

That kind of a general restriction aoplies to much of the land that the honourable me,mber is interested in, in and around Lake Winnipegosis, that particular policy of some longstanding that t1as been in effect, as long as I can remember, s being reviewed as to whether or not that is still realistic and ought to be binding or preventing us ·'rom the disposal or sale of some of the lands that are being applied for. MR. DEP UTY CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to make a comment on that.

I'm glad the Minister brought up the information on the statistics regarding the sale of Crown land, that's a question that I had for him. I believe my colleague f om Ste. Rose requires a bit more specific information, will be posing that question afterwards. I'd just like to comment on the gove 'nment's policy with respect to the sale of Crown land. I really do not see this as being any great benefit to those that have cottages on Crown land at the present time.

The practise in the past has been fe r people who have vacat ion home lot leases to be at le to sell their lot to whoever they may wish to sell th,�ir lot to, and because of the location of the lot more often than not the market price of the cottage sitting on a lot had included in it an implied value for the land, because it was the practise of the government to automatically transfer the lease to any<me who purchased the cottage which was sitting on 1he lot.

So that I don't think you would find ve,ry much dif ference between the sale price of cottages in, say, the Whiteshell Park that are on a waterfron I and the sale price of a cottage lot which some ·one has purcha sed from the go vernment on a location outside of the Whiteshell Park. If it were n similar aesthetic settings; that is, say, lakefront property, because people were really buyi ng, not only the cottage, but they were buying the locat ion, regardless of whether it was private property or leasehold property. So they are really six o1 one and half a do zen of the other.

The only possible dif ference could be that it may make someone feel a little bit better and sleep a little bit easier if they had that title in their safety deposit box of thei · bedside drawer. I can see that emotional attachment and understand that emotional attachment to owning a piece of property. There's nothing really ch anged as far as the person who owns the cottage, other than 2496 their being able to perhaps exercise the option of selling a little more flexibly than otherwise. As far as the selling price is concerned, I don't think they will have any great advantage.

In terms of the sale of lots, I was interested to hear the Minister's comments with respect to the 1200 or so lots that are outside of the Parklands which fall under this policy. I was not really clear on the statistics involved there and I would lik e some further information on that if he could. Exactly what number of those are now up for sale, that is where the present cottage lot-holders are applying for purchase of those lots. Is there a percentage that he can give us, or an actual figure in which he can supply the committee? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps the best way to answer that question for the Honourable Member for Rupertsland is to ind icate to him that the same problems exist in the sale, or in making possible the sale of these recreat ional lots, as exis t with agricultural lands.

That is that in some instances they lie within power reserves; in other instances we have a fair bit of work to do to provide the legal subdivisions prior to title being able to be made available for sale of the lots, and also I would imagine that there may be some other departmental concerns, from time to time, that may be registered against the sale of a particular piece of property. It could be for soil erosion purposes; it could be for wild life purp oses; roughly the same kind of conditions prevail.

Therefore, I cannot answer his question as to the percentage of that 1, 150 recreational lots that are technically available for sale on a broad basis, I suppose they all are, subject to these policies being reviewed and some of the di fficu lties being overcome. To answer his lead-in question, let me though make it very clear that the go vernment is not imp osing any sale policy either with respect to agricultu ral farm lands or in the case under discussion now with respect to recre ational lots.

If, to answer the honourable member's question, he sees no particular real change occurring and if no benefit is perceived available to a prospective purchase, he will obviously not purchase. On the other hand the memb er is also quit e correct that there are those who feel that they would like to own their property, and I happen to be one of them.

If I were to believe at all in an entrenched Charter of Rights in our Constitution, I for instance would like to see the right to own property in that type of an institution, but I don't believe in an entrenched Bill of Rights, so I enter that argument in a lighter vein. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, one other question and it's related to Crown Lands Admini stration and that is, I would like to know what the Minister's policy is with respect to wild rice lakes and the leasing of same. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I must acknowledge that the whole area of wild rice is an intriguing one and one that 1 look forward to facing up to the challenges that this issue apparently presents to any number of Ministers in the past and admi nistrators within the department in the past.

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 There is under revie w currently, serious consideration for some of the concerns that have been expr essed to us by some of the rice farmers who have suggested to us that the lack of longer term leasing is one of the prohibitive factors that has discouraged the kind of development that apparently is req uir ed for a go od and healthy wild rice operation.

I am advised that in the Province of Saskatchewan they have proceeded along the course by providing longer term leases to the rice farmers in tha t province, who then feel confident in doing the kind of development work including se edin g and so forth that can considerably improve the production of wild rice. I must indicate in a general way that there seems to be two dis tinct problems in the area of wild rice. One is the encouragement of its growth and harvest and the other one is its processing.

There is no question that it would be desirable to ensure that the bulk of it should be processed within the province. Again, it provides employment opportunities and it maximizes the returns to our farmers.

However, there is, as I think the member is aware of, some difficulties particularly in the processing end of it and if the member is asking for the policy direction that I have provided to the department and the course that we are proceeding on is to try to solve one question at a time; that is to see whether or not we cannot bring about an improved situation with respect to the leases, the tenure of leases to the farmers and then tackle the processing end of it. That's the order of things on which I am approaching the wild rice program.

It would be my hope that for the coming seaso n, individual operators will have made available to them a better lease arrangement that will hope fully encourage them, not simply to mine the rice patties as it were, but to encourage them to develop and enhance the gr owth and production of wild rice. MR. BOSTROM: Ju st in refere nce to the Saskatchewan program, Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minister if he has also looked at the incentives which the Saskatchewan government have provided for wild rice producers.

One of the things which they are doing there, I understand, is providing literally seed money in the way of seed to the wild rice lake lease holders. They are buying the rice green from various producers and concentrating on picking up the best quality wild rice and providing that as seed , literally seed, to the wild rice lease holders in order that they can perhaps increase the production. I understand this program has been very successful in the Pr ovince of Saskatchewan and they are obtaining a much higher return in terms of production on those lakes.

At the same time they are looking at the question of processing and they are approaching it very cautiously as well because the processing area is one which is very complicated, and it is one which is qu ite di fficu lt to adminis ter because of the perishablity of the product, and one which I believe lends itself to some centrally located processing facility of one type or another. There are one or two in Manitoba that do custom processing now so that ther e is no gr eat urgency for that part of the question to be answered.

However, on the production side I would ask the Minister specificall y if he has consider ed trying 2497 somet hing along the lines of the Saskatchewan program, providing seed to the farmers. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I welcome the comments by the Member for Rupertsland. I don't pretend for a moment to be fully conversant with all that needs to be done in the area of wild rice production and its management, but I have made it my business to have enqu ired about some of the things that are possible, and some of the very encouraging and worthwhile things that they are doing in Saskatchewan with respect to this crop.

We cert ainly acknowledge th at we are underutilizing the potential in this area and that we could be well advised, particularly if we get our house in order so to speak, with respect to the lessee arrangements and the allo cat ion problem sorted out.

There is a continuing concern that was exp ressed and carried out by membe rs of the previous admin istration and is carried out by this administration, that there be every opportunity made available for our Native brothers to be fully involved or active in this, what might be described as one of the traditional means of se curing some economic benefit. we have to attempt to straighten out the situation to the extent that we have a healthy number of wild rice operators who have some security of tenure in their leases with whom then future developmental programs could well be considered and worked out.

I want to assure the honourable member that all of the suggestions that the honourable member makes that certainly we will be taking a look at what is happening in Saskatchewan . My information is that Saskatchewan in the last few years has had a very noticeable and encoura ging increase in their production of wild rice and some of the specific suggestions, the provision seed, etc., would be the kind of things I think the department would certainly want to look at.

I think first things first, we have to provide that base of a good group of operators who are prepared to invest their time and their money in the harvest of wild rice. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairperson, while we were on this

section and since I may not be here this evening, I wrote to the Minister about the Crown lands and access to Crown lands where people have a licence or permit to have a fish farm, where they are using a lake for fish farming. The concern of some of the people that have been in or want to be in fish farming is that there is no way they can restrict others from coming into the area where they are stocking the lake to harvest for their own commercial enterprise.

In Southern Manitoba this isn't a big problem because most of these pot holes or small lakes are within private land so that people can restrict access to them. But in the North where the fish farming has been tried, or trout farming has been tried, most of it has been done in areas that are Crown land and a permit is given by the province. There is of course a problem, Mr. Chairperson, when somebody buys fish and stocks a lake and then others come in and angle in that particular lake. The Minister in his letter, I

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 don't think, really deals with the question, or doesn't deal with it adequately. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if it would be in order for me to ask what I did say in my lette,r? MR. McBRYDE: Okay. What the Minister says in his letter is that, "Trout farming is allowed on both private and Crown lands. Those waters which are in Crown land are open to public access. In mcst cases angling in these lakes is impractical bec<tuse the food supply is so plentiful fish may pay no attention to the artificial bait.

Usually the trout are planted in the spring and harvested in the fall, but in northern lakes where fish growth is slower the tr )Ut may winter over. When this occurs the lake may be best be used as a stocke d trout water for use by Manitoba anglers, thus the only lakes which need protection from public access are those wnich can be best be used as stocked angling Ia kes.

An example of this situation is Webster La� e which started as a trout farming operation and is now one of the best rainbow trout fishing lakes in the North". 1 think it is from a general public point of view that's laudable, but from the person who bc•ught the fish and stocked the lake, they are just not going to do that. It's a side line for people who are ir the bait business and have other operations going, and the lakes that are stocked are normally ones -- I mean you stock a lake that doesn 't have other fish in it - so they are normally ones that are not productive for other reasons. So.

I wonder if the Minister would like to :omment on that or whether he would like to tool< a little deeper into it and see if there is a way where a lake is suitable basically for trout farming or fish farming and not for much else, that there might be a way to restrict access so that the person could ha�e the full use of the lake for the fish farming without having everybody come in there and harvest his fish for him. MR. ENNS: Mr .

Chairman, I recall the origi nal enquiry by the honourable member and tl1ere is a dif ficulty and as the honourable member suggests in his own question, that from a public polic1 point of view the end result may be laudable. I appreciate the concern that the individual who wants to Emler into this kind of arrangement as a personal bL siness to supplement income, it doesn 't rea lly provide the answer for him. I would only suggest to the honourable member that 1 am certainly open to constructive adv ce in this instance. 1 can relate to the honourable member that 1 have empathy for his position.

As a cattleman I lease Crown land, 1 don't mind having the odd one of Her Majesty's deer come and graze on my l; md, but I take exception to too many neighbours cattle coming on my land . if I have the land under lease. It would seem to me that there ought to be some way, that one would have to look at it on a very individual situation with respect to the location and size of the lake before one considered gr anting those kind of tenants rights, if you like, to property that he doesn 't own.

I simply say we do that with Cr own land on a regular basis and in this way I think the member has a point that there is some northern dis crimination being exercised where I hi ; kind of fishery is being encouraged in Southern Manitoba where these bodies of water usually are found on 2498 privately held lands, but that this same kind of activity is not available to persons living in areas where the land is essentially held by the Crown. Let me undertake, Mr. Chairman, to review that situation and to see whether or not some solution to it can be found.

My Deputy Minister advises me it would have to be appr oached possibly very indi vid ualisticly, each indi vidual application would have to be looked at as such so that other interests would not be precluded from the use of that, like to the detriment of the general public. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson it just sort of makes common sense, I guess, to me then and I think the Minister agrees, to see if there is some way where a permit is granted to restrict access to some lakes. As I said, I don't think this is a big problem because the lake would not have been a fishing lake up until that time.

I'm not sure whether it's Webster Lake or not, but there was a northern lake that was stocked and fish farmed but then when people start to find out about it, over the years, then the sports fishing was so great in that stocked lake that the person just gave up; they just stopped stocking it.

I'm not sure how many people are interested, there might be five or six people that would be interested in a small operation where they could use this as a side to another business and I imagine that it's sort of a legal; if the Minister agrees with what I'm saying then it's just sort of a matter of working out the legality of how you restrict access to that particular ki nd of small lake. MR.

ENNS: Yes, essen tially that's what I'm saying, except with a reservation that the department would have to be in a position to excercise their decision as to whether or not that lake, in the first instance, could be used in such a manner. I might also suggest as an answer to your friend that finds himself in this position that perhaps a royalty on fish caught could repla ce that lost income. I'm further advised, Mr. Chairman, that it does, particularly in the areas that my honourable friend is speaking about, in remoter northern areas, it does present an enforcement problem.

Last night I was put under some criticism for the enforcement image of the department and I suppose I should be wary in inviting any new situations which would call for greater enforcement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:30 having arrived, Comm ittee rise for Private Memb ers' Hour. SUP PLY - EDUC ATION MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Lloyd G. Hyde (Portage Ia Prairie): I will now draw the members' attention to Page 47, Resolution 52, Item 3.(a) - pass. The Honourable Minister. MR. COSEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have heard a number of speakers on the topic of the new Education Finance Program.

Last even ing two or three different members of the opposition spoke on this particular topic. The Member for Elmwood came out with one of his ridiculous statements - he has made a lot of them but this one had to be the most ridiculous - he made the statement that the new Education

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 Support Program would bleed Winnipeg dry. Nothing could be more ridiculous, Mr. Chairman, than that statement. But of course he makes them hoping that someone in the media will think it's catchy and pick it up and if he is successful then he is very pleased. I say this is one of the most ridiculous of a whole list of ridiculous statements that he has made in the past.

If in fact he belie ves that this plan will bleed Winnipeg tax payers dry, then I would like him to explain to the taxpayers of Winnipeg No. 1 why it is that this year they are seeing a 16-mill drop in school taxes in Winnipeg No. 1? Is that bleeding someone dry, Mr. Chairman? -(Int erjection)- Hardly at all, Mr. Chairman. Let him explain to the taxpayers of St. James-Assi niboia if they are being bled dry when they see a five -mill drop in their school tax. Let him explain to the taxpayers of Assiniboine South if they are being bled dry by an eight-mill drop in their school taxes.

In fact, let him explain to the tax payers of St. Boniface School Division, who see an increase of three mills, Mr. Chairman, certainly not a very significant increase at all, let him explain to them if they are being bled dry. If this plan had not come in, Mr. Chairman, the taxpayers of that division would probably have seen an increase of some 10 or 12 mills, but accord ing to the Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood, they are being bled dry. Wel l, Mr. Chairman, let's proceed to Fort Garry where they are seeing a 10-mill drop in their school mill rate. Is that being bled dry, Mr. Chairman? We can go on.

Norwood, where they are seeing a six-mill drop in their school tax, and I supp ose the Honourable Member for Elmwood would say that's being bled dry. Mr. Chairman, if anyone was being bled dry it was the people of this city by the old financing plan that had been band-aided unsuccessfully for a number of years, specifically by the gentlemen opposite when they were in government. Certainly if he looks at Seven Oaks, let him go to that particular area and that school division, let him ask them what has happened to their school mill rate and it's down some three mills. Is that being bled dry?

He makes the statement, Mr. Chairman, and I am sure he is very proud of it, that the people of Winnipeg are being bled dry by the new school finance plan. If he is going to make statements of that type, Mr. Chairman, he will lose his whole credibility in this House and, if he wants to risk that, then I guess he is welcome to go ahead and do it. In fact, Mr.

Chairman, if he wants to use a blood example, if that's the metaphor he wants to deal with, let him use transfusion because that is what we are seeing this year, a $70 million transfusion into the school system that is helping the taxpayers of this province; that's what it is, a transfusion, Mr. Chairman. Where is the blee ding? Now, if the honourable member sees $70 million of a transfusion as bleeding, then he certainly suffers as far as his biology, medical backg round, haemotology, whatever it may be is concerned.

He can't really di scern the dif ference between the two, in fact, perhaps even common sense is one of the things that may be causing the problem here. I wanted to address that particu lar point, Mr. Chairman, because although being ridiculous, unfor tuna tely somet imes people make th ese ridiculous statements and if no one refutes them they are taken as being the gospel and I wanted to take a minute to show just how absolutely ridiculous that particular statement happened to be. Mr. Chairman, the Member for Transcona entered the debate and made many statements.

I certainly can appreciate the fact that he saw fit to rise and speak on behalf of the school division in his area; that's what you would ex pect of an ML A. He attempted to put forward some arguments in support of a particular position and then he made a bunch of statements, Mr. Chairman, which, agai n, I would suggest do harm his credibility. He said the new Education Finance Program was political; that it was hurried ; that it was a bad system. Well, I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, if it's political, where is it political?

Let's ask the Leader of the Opposition wha t effect this new education finance plan had in his area, in the Selkirk School Division. I under stand the mill rate there for schools will drop some 11 mills and in the Town of Sel kirk, I believe it's 16 mills. Now, is that political? Did we bring in a plan so that the Leader of the Opposition would be harmed or gain by it? Not at all, Mr. Chairman. Let him look at the other school divisions in this province that have gained by this particular plan; let him look at those that may have suffered some increase in their mill rate. The irony is, Mr.

Chairman, just the opposite of what the Member for Transcona would like to suggest, I can think of the one rural area that has had some increase, Dauphin, and of course we are the benefactors in that case because the ML A from that area, of course, sits on this side of the House. Now, is that political? Did we design a plan that would supposedly not reward Dauphin? We can look down at the Garden Valley School Division where, I bel ieve, that's the other rural di vision that has some increase, Mr . Chairman, something in the area of two or three mills, not really significant, but there was an increase.

Who is the sitting mem ber in that area? The Mem ber for Rhineland who sits on this side of the House, Mr. Chairman. Let's look at all of the big gainers if you wish in the prog ram , those who had very significant decreases in their mill rates. You know, an awful lot of them are represented by people sitting on the other side of the House, Mr. Chairman.

For any member to stand up in this House and say the program is poli tical, he is al most reach ing the ridiculous state of the Member for Elmwood, who says anything, it doesn't matter whether it makes sense, whether it's logic, whether it can be backed up by the figures, just say it. You know, somebody may even pick it up on a radio clip, but say it. I'm a little disappointed in the Member for Transcona who I didn't think operated quite that way. He also mentioned, of course, the fact that this plan was hurried, Mr. Chairman, you know undue haste in putting this plan into effect. Two and one half years, Mr.

Chairman, that we spent studying this particular plan; is that haste? Two and one-half years of consultation, study, research, talking to people across this province; is that haste? And when did we announce it, Mr. Chairman? In Ja nuary, to giv e school boards plenty of time to consider budgets; to 2499

TrJesday, 7 April, 19 81 ----------------------------- have some time to familiarize themselves with the new plan. Is that haste? But the Member from Transcona, says, oh undue haste, not enough time spent on the program. How much time? Did they want to spend eight years, as they did look ing at it and doing nothing? We spent two and one-half years of rather intensified work, Mr. Chairman, and I'm very proud of the final product.

Well, then the Member for Transcona says it's a bad system, a very bad system and he said, believe me, we will go to the people with this new li nancing plan and we certainly will be able to mal<e great marks. because this finance plan is bad. Well, Mr. Chairman. if it's bad, why has it been able to do, in the majority of cases, what we thought it would do. If it's bad, why has it borne out what we f gur ed it would do; that it would decrease taxes for a majority of the property taxpayers in this province; if it's such a bad plan, why has it done that?

If, in being a three year plan, it's going tc• provide the opportunity for school boards to plan for three years - and most school boards that I've talked to, some that have written to me, have certai nly seen that as a very positive aspect of the plan -- is that bad? But the Member for Transcona says, a bad bad plan, a bad system. Mind you, I haven't h� ard any other suggestion from him in three years as to a better system, but that's a bad bad system. He, of course, doesn't even like equalization across the province, although his leader does.

His leader says the most positive aspect of the new finance program is the provincial equal izat ion. The Me rnber for Transcona obviou sly ha sn't talked to his leader lately, in that particular aspect, and of course then the Member for Transcona started to refer to school di vision in his area, his constituency Transcona Springfield, and he trotted out a lot of >tatistics. Some of them for 1980, the others I'm not sure where he was deriving them. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to also prov de some statistics on that particular school division that may be of interest to the Member for Transcona because 1 think they're significant. Under the head ing Total Expenditure. and I'm looking at school di•1isions in the urban area of Greater Winnipeg, inc rea�.e in total expendit ures from 1980 to 1981, the second highest increase in the urban area of Greater Winnipeg was Transcona-S pringfield, Mr. Speaker, witll a 15 .9 percent increase; the second highest of ·11 school divisions in the urban area.

That is a stcttistic the honourable member didn't bother to mention last night. in fact 1 think he kept refe rring to statistics that are at least a year old now. Then let's look at total expen ditur e per pupil increase from 1980 to 1981. and if we look at that, Mr. Chairman, Transcona-Springfield, the di vision he was referring to. has the highest percentage increase in the urban area, in the City of Winnioeg, 17.9 percent increase. I think another significctnt figure, Mr. Chairman. If we look at total cost per pupil for 1981, Transcona-Springfield stands in sixth place, in sixth place out of 11.

If we look at the percentage increase from 1980 to 198 1 in operat ing exp enditur e we find that Transcona-Springfield is third hig hest in th e city, third highest. Mr. Chairman, in percentag•l increase from 1980 to 1981. in total operating experditure. Well then let 's look at operating expenditure per pupil. again for the same school division bi!Cause the 2500 honourable member's interested, and in operating expenditure per pupil the increase from 1980 to 1981, Transcona-Springfield is the second highest in the city, at 17.3 perc ent. Seventeen that's in operat ing expen ditur e increase.

In operating expenditure per pupil, Mr. Chairman, it is fifth highest in 1981. out of 11 school divisions. Well, again in the area of total ope rat ing expenditure, looking at the increase, Mr. Chairman, from 1975 to 1981, lest we think that there's been just something happened between 1980 to 81 - I think the honourable member was trying to infer that alone.

Let 's look at what has happened from 1975 to 198 1 in operat ing expen ditur e, tha t's the total operating expenditure for the school divisions within the Greater Winnipeg area, and we find that in that case the increase for Transcona-S pringfield was 118.2 percent, the third highest, Mr. Chairman, in the Greater Winnipeg area; the third highest out of 11. I think those are rather interesting figures, Mr. Chairman. We could go on.

In operating expenditure per pupil, if we look at the percentage increase from 1975 to 1981, the highest percentage increase in the whole City of Winnipeg at 130. 1 percent was guess who? Mr. Chairman, out of all the metro divisions, Transcona-Springfield, and I thought that's another point that the honour able member would be interested in, and one that he could place along beside his other statistics that he was using last night. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member, of course, kept pointing to the new Education Support Program and said, wel l, it may be working other places, it's not working in Transcona-Springfield. I have to caution the honourable member and I have said it many times in this House since we brought out the program, that in those school divisions where their budgets were kept at a level in line with the CPI or very close to the CPI increase, they have not seen an increase in their mill rate. In those divisions that have seen fit - and again I stated, Mr.

Chairman, it is well within their jurisdiction, well within their res ponsibility and it is their option if they so choose - to go beyond that level, particularly if they may feel they have some special project, or a once only program that they want to put in place. But if they do that, Mr. Chairman, then I think we have to be aware and the honourable member has to be aware, that they are doing that as an exceptional case, going beyond what is being provided to the basic program across this province.

I think the honourable member is probably aware that in this particular year the school division that he allud es to is receivi ng some $16.9 million in provincial support. Mr. Chairman, that's about $6.5 million more than they received in 1980. If we go on with these figu res, Mr. Chairman, and I think the Member for Transcona would be interested, we find some rather interesting things; that if this particular di vision had decide d to keep their expenditures at the eligible expenditure level then their total mill rate in 1981 would have been 61. 2 mills. Now, their mill rate last year, Mr. Chairman, was 69.7.

If they had been able to keep their expenditures at the eligible expenditure level which takes into consideration the CPI increase, they would have seen a decrease in their mill rate in Transcona. Last year it was 69.7, following that particular

Tuesday, 7 April, 1981 guideline it wou ld have been 61. 2. In fact, Mr. Chairman, in order to brin g that mill rate in Transcona in line with last year's mill rate of 69.7, the Transcona-Springfield School Board would have had to find some $8 10,000 in their budget. Now, remember we are talking of a budget, Mr. Chairman, of some $21.5 million, and of course that's a considerable amount of money, but school boards, Mr. Chairman, make those decisions.

They determine their priorities; they determine what they will do this year; what they will defer to next year; what particular programs they will em bark on in a particular year; what programs they may save for another year. School boards also, Mr. Chairman, have in the past, had the habit of building up surpluses in

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-5-53a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 5th hansardpdf 53a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9be9394425a46f1cb3b4b2cec00116f21ae46d2a

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