Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, DECEMBER 19, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 21

nece~her 19, 1975 Tape R17 IB-1 The House !T'et at 3:0'1 PY. Yr.. Speal•er in tl1e Chair }IR. SPEAKER: Clrc:1er, p]ease! S~ATE~'ENTS BY } '1NIS"l'El"~. : ~'ll. SPEAKF.l': 'T'he hon. !·'in:! ster of Industrta] neve] opment. r:o. J.lll'H'Il'IC:/IN: Vr. Speaker - ~m CPClSlliE: ~'r. Speaker - ·~. LPN111'IC:AN: I a~ c:1el:! r;htecl to have the opportunity to have outdone the hon. "inister of '':ines ;mc:1 Energy for a ch~>.nge.

Re '>P.nt r:! r:ht at it too, ry the Pay. rirst~Your Honot•r, 1 wou]d just ]ike t.o s:1y it is a pleasure for me to he ahJe to table :1 report in a 1:1:inute, a few !'l:inutes tiwe, of the br:l ef study ~·hi ch was none by some professional en?:ineers ;mel ~'r. Frank Svencer on the Rurgeo fish plant situation. I would like toJbefore c:1oinp, that at a ]ater l'loment;make a hrief statement. After r,overnment purchased the Burgeo f:ish plant '''f' sought to interest the private concern to purch,qse anc:1/or !'1an11p:e the operations.

Al thoup:h thh; V<ls at a tiTPe Hhen the f:! sh:ing industry ,,·as buoyant, }lational Sen Products H.1S the onJv company ,,,hich sho"t.•ecl any interest :in becotning :!nvolvec:1 and only on the condition that substant:!al il'lprovements 11nd refurl-:ishinp: were carriecl out on the plant.

The cost of morlern:l z:lnr. the p] ant ~T as c1eterminec1 and :in vie~1 of the sign:if:lcant expenili.tures involver a second option '''2S studied, nameJy, to construct n new fish pJ:mt at nurgeo utilizing the rec:1unclant fac1] Hies comprising the Natlake herrln? reduction plant. nue to the nature of the Pegional Development Incentives Act; a much larr:er :Incentive woulcl be ohta:fnecl for constructing a ne''' plant. llenr.e the net cost to governll'ent "'<lS determined to be 1 ess hy having a new plant constructec1 rather than modernizing the existinp: plant c:1esp:lte the cl:l.fference in capital cost.

The concept nt the t:ime "'as to construct a ne•.• plant costing $6.4 miJJion of which 50 per cent was to be prov:fnec1 by way of a Dl'EE grant. National vere to !!'anap.:e the pl 11nt and ••e.re given the option to purchase the plant 2120

necemher 19, 1975 Tape 817 !T'Jl, l.llrlnf'TGA!'{: ttt tmy time within n five yenr periocl •. AsauminR thP pJnnt were proHtl'hle, nnd at that time it '.ms p,enerally ap:reed it 'W'Ould be profitahle, all of the r:overnMCnt 1 s investment in the hnve eventually 'been T('Covereil. On necernhcr 30, 1q73 nn agreement was signed ~ith to the effect that National assume the management of the fish plant and plans for the construction of the new plant only the receipt of n forma] PPFE aereement.

The n~EE grant forthcoming untiJ the 5urnmer of 1974. ~y that time two trencl~ haC emerged; First the problems which later be~et ·industry hepan to become v:faihle; secondly the herfnning of rreatly accelernte~ :fnfJnt:fon h:td alreR.dy set in. Net.r of the cost, the cnp:l tnJ cost of the cap:ltal costs :fn the orrier of $12 million as npposec1 to the estim.nte of $6.4 million. After further iliscuFIS:fons trlth National the plant was chan~ecl somewhat so as to bring the capital to nrEE was suhm:ftte~ in June Clf 1974.

Because of the prohlems in the Hsh:lng in~ustry ~ur:fng the !'luhse<!uent consideration was g:fvep to the application until 1fny of 1975~ was not unt:fJ September, jt~t a couple of months ar,o of tllnt a rcv:fscc1 ~cvc]op'r1ent incentive was forthcominp: in nf $3.5 million, Hy that t'ire the capital cost of the nev -plant . e~:;calated from $9.1 l'liJlion to over ~11.5 T'lillion which is the esti!'1ate.

The net reFu1t of nil thie "-'RB that the project,vhieh initially rP.quire:d nn inveRtTI'_cnt by the ProvincP of $3.2 million recoverable funds to be applied ar,ninst cap:ftnl costs,had eeca.Lat:ea to the point ~\~re the investment by the Prov:lnce would be of $7~6 million to be applic~ ap,n:fnst capital costs. 2121

npcemher 19, 1975 !'T' . J.\1N'f'T'J("..'\N: Tape Pl7 IR-3 Tf'covery of this large investroent ill doubtful. In any evPnt 1t \'fll 1-f' extende<' over a Much larper Jleriod of ti me . !·lith this con~t:lcler:~tjon (n l"ind and 11s '"'elJ in vie\o· of the general re~ttt'l'int pro~rar:r.e initiated by ~overnrent un<'er "~icb rany c~nunit:les in the Province tmve ha<4 t o sacrifice neerle<' public l'orks projecta , the governll'ent felt n responsib:IU ty to ellcsure that l>efore :1 rrevoca)o.J y col!!I'!Hting itself to a n~ fish plant aJl other options had to be finellv explore(!. Conseouently I appointed ' 2122

necember lQ, 1975. Tape 818 Rl! - 1 >m. LUNDRIGAN: a team of three engineers anrl Hr. Frank Spencer from within the to cam out an B!'>sessment of the Burgee Fiah Industries p'lant at and report to government as to the expenditures which would be to convert the existin~ fish plant into an efficient modern TI1is study group has now completed its report and has determined cost of the modernizing of the existing plant nt Hurgeo would be of $7.6 million.

In addition to this maximum direct coat, during phases of the modernization programme the existing plant would have opnrations involving shout a six week down-time - I am down-time period. Cost associated with this dawn-time has not in the above fiRure of $7.6 million. The report further shows w-ith modernization the resulting ne'.: facility would be somewhat less ideal because of physical constraints placed upon it by the site itself.

The ability of the modernized plant to be flexible enough to reflect ne\-1 processing techniquefl and needs in the future is severely hampered by the fact that the plant is loc:ated,as han. members who are fami1 iar 1rlth the site are m.,1are • on the side of a hill which expansion in the future difficult and Cos-tly possibly, if not nurinr, the ptiRt sevl!ral weeks in con_1unction with National Sea Products we h~ve Also undertaken,~hich is a crucial point I would han. members to recognize, we have also undertaken a detailed review the design and cost estimates for the new plant facility.

We are that these costs 1.:111 not exceed $ll.S million, and it may even be achieve significant cost reductions with t~e nev plant, fncts nnd figures on this at a later date Hhen we have more up-to-date information fro~ our engineers. Considering,therefore,the much larger federal incentive available for constructing a new plant,we have thnt modernization of the existing fish plant at Burgee does not a vinhle alternative. Hence I have today instructed my officials to immerliately conclude the necessary arrangements to commence of the new plant nt the earliest possible date.

SCH-W !ION, HVmERS: Hear, hear! lffi, LUND RICAN: I hope, Your Honour, that this new fncility, the firsf 2123

December 19, 1975. Tape 818 RH - 2 MR. LUNDRIGAN: phase of it, the initial contracts,can be called sometime in March or April. Thank you. SOMF. ~ON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. HR. R. SH!HONS: Mr. Speaker, let me just say on behalf·.,of my colleagues, and in my own behalf and on behalf of the people of Burgeo,that I am delighted beyond words to hear the announcement from the minister. It will be certainly very welcome news in Burgeo. There has been considerable apprehension, particularly since the time the minister made the announcement of the study.

That is understandable because studies normally involve long periods of time. The minister in this context is to be congratulated because he must have the record in this government for having produced the study in so short a time lapse. I was a bit apprehensive myself when I heard about the study, particularly in the context of the time that might be involved in the further delays. The plant as it now stands, as the minister will know and others will know, is in such condition that it cannot stand many further delays.

So I am sure he can well appreciate havin~ been there a week or two ago, can well appreciate the apprehensions, the concerns expressed not only hy me but by the workers at the· plant and the other:,people of llurgeo. Let me just say then, Mr. Speaker, that again I am delighted beyond words with the announcement. I congratulate the minister for the expeditious way in which he has handled this matter. On behalf of the people of Burgeo I thank him for the way he has handled it.

Many of us were puzzled with the need for the study in the first place 9because it was fairly common knowledge as to the condition of the plant and so on. I do not say that in criticism at this point 1 because it is not pertinent to the issue now. I do at the same time recognize that with the cost restraint programme and with the escalation in construction costs, certainly there was an onus on the minister to insure that we were getting the best possible return for the fewest possible dollars. In that 2124

December 19, 1975 Tape no. 819 Page 1- mw_- Mr. Simmons. context, and particularly in view of the outcome of the expeditious way in which it has been delivered, finalized, I can well understand now the need to have it reviewed once ~Le 1n interest of cost saving, reviewed once more the overall propos,al for Burgee. I am delighted to bear the minister indicate also that the first phase of the project will be going ahead without further delay. Did I understand the minister to say that }~reb or April wo"ld be the operative date for the calling the first phase? Again, Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of my colleague~ the people of Burgeo,my congratulations to the minister. delighted to hear the good news. It is good news. future of Burgee, and I thank the minister. SOME HON • MEHBERS : Rear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, I would like to announce or tell the House that we received the sad news today that Sir Val ~ncan, the president or managing director of Rio Tinto Zinc Corporation, who were the principal owners,.or the largest shareholders in BRINCO Limited, died in London this morning suddenly. Mr.

Speaker, was certainly an international business genius. over the management of Rio Tinto ~inc Corporation when it was ._, •••• ,,, I think, as the Rio Tinto Corporation and owned and had owned a mine in Spain for some seventy-five or ninety years or some peri~d of time like that. lie took aver the management of it just after the end of World War II and from that small company,which owned _a Spanish mine which was pretty well played out, he built it into one of the greatest companies in the mining field in the world no~ known as Rio Tinto Zinc Corporation, which, involved in BRINCO.

Sir Val Duncan was also closely in their development of the Upper Churchill project. On November 2125

December 19, 1975 Tape no. 819 Page 2 - mw MI.. Crosbie. when the manager of BRINCO or of the hydro project, Mr. Don McParland and other top officials of the company were killed in a plane crash at Wabush, Sir Val Duncan came to Canada and assumed the role that Mr. McParland had been performing for the company until they secured other management to carry on the project. The achieveaents of Sir Val Duncan., as an entrepreneur in the mining field in particul~are legendary •. He operated on evuy continent, including Canada and, of course, had a particular association with Newfoundland.

The Premier has asked me on behalf of himself and the rest of the cabinet to send our regrets to his family in England and to the Rio Tinto Zinc Corporation. I am sure that the Acting leader of the Opposition or the Government House Leader will join me in moving that the House express its sympathy to his family and to Rio Tinto ·Zinc Corporation in the usual way by passing a resolution of the members. I would move that, and I anticipate the bon. gentleman would second it. m.. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues I would like to share the sorrow or the sad news of the death of Sir Val Duncan, and I am only too happy to second the motion as put by the Minister of Mines and Energy. Sir, as we all know, Sir Val Duncan was chail;lllan. or managing director of Rio Tinto-Zinc Corporation, and it was that corporation that owned forty-five,or something in excess of forty-five per cent of BRINCO until quite 1:ecenUy. Sir Val Duncan was undoubte .dly a man of great vi&ion and leadership, 2126

December 19, 1975 Tape 820 PK- 1 J.tr. F. Rowe: a very successful international entrepreneur, and, Sir, it is because of men like Sir Val Duncan that the Upper Churchill d~ve:lo,~ru was achieved on

schedule -within the estimates laid out many years earlier, and 1<1e nave to remember that much of the technoloRV for - development of the Upper Churchill had to be developed right on the spot, new technology had to be instituted in order to p,reat project. Sir, it was a great pioneering effort and many men can share in the achievement of the Upper Churchill.

I myself had­ the pleasure of flying over and walking in the area of the Upper Churchill Falls at a time when it was flowing uselessly over that great falls or cliff,precipice and now, Sir, we see this power harnessed for the good use of Newfoundland and hopefully, Sir, thfs - is only the beginning, and I hope that any further developments in­ Labrador with TeSpect to hydro electric. development will be obviously in memory of. men 9uch as Sir Val Duncan, Sir. I can only repeat that we are sorrowed indeed and we are only too happy second the motion put by the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. SPEAKER: The bon.

Minister of Education. Before recogniziri& him I should say that it has been moved, seconded and agreed that an appropriate resolution expressing the bresvement of the House of the paesin~ of Sir Val will be drafted. The han. Minister of Education. BON. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to make a statement, to table a report regarding the remarks from the han. member from Exploits (Hr. Mulrooney) in this House yesterday. I saidiw-hen I spoke what he had aaid,that I was unaware of any improper actions of the Department of Education and the teachers in the marking of public examinations.

I did not know about the incidents, and I did relate a little bit of my own experience. I think the hon. gentleman his own experience when he was working on the Marking Board and was an employee of the government, in fact, and I think he downgraded and degraded both the Deparcment of Education and especially the Supervisor 2127

December 19, 1 ~ 7 5 Tape !120 PK - 2 Mr. House: of Public Examinations at the time, Mr. McCarthy, - AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. HOUSE: and to some extent the teachers of Newfoundland who were on the Marking Board, - SOMP. RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR~USE: especially the teachers in the English section. Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of the English

section of the Marking Board, Mr. Speaker, the figures that were used like the quota of 864 or 860 papers; there were thirty-four readers in that

section and it represent .ed an average of roughly twenty-five papers per person per day, and which was not a quota that was unreasonable. So the outburat was,I think 1a little bit damaging, and the publicity that it is getting is not doing any good for education, the department, or for the teachers. AN HON. MEMBER: Irresponsible, MR. HOUSE: So I am tabling, Mr. - MR. NEARY: Tell us the whole story. MR. HOUSE: Now I am tabling a report, Mr.

Speaker, because it is a five page report that was done by the Chief Reader.who was a very respected educator,and was the Chief Reader, ~d he was representing, of course,the Marking Board that year,and it adequately answers to my satisfaction the outburats of yesterday and it refutes and throws a very different light on the statements.

I would like for the hon. members of this Hous.e to read the report, as I said,because it will clarify the situation for the members and for the Province and give us the idea and the impression at least that the evaluation of our pupils in this Province is taken seriously and with professional competence. MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: Do you have copies for everybody? Hear, hear! MR. HOUSE: I want copies for everyone. Thank you. 2128

nc~~~her l~, 1975 Tnpe R21 1'l1c 110n. I':'C!~her for !\xploits ("r. Vu]rooncy). Hf' 'fl'lJ'(ll'i!jfV: Pr, ~pcal:cr, T clo not inten~ to dehate. r rterely vi.c:h to -pcdnt n11t tlL"tt T t1'iG not - vn, f:T'F.f.JG:P: l'ell it :fs not :fn order for thP- hon. gentleman to de hate, It ilepenc's on Hhnt he h going to point out. I r'ir not 10tnte nnytf,inA al-out the integrity of teachers nor tl1e - A point of order. VP 1--'m.nnntTTJ': - frresponsihlc nature of the teachers. f"' ~Pr:'MTn: 1'T', t-r;;r.t~: !~ polnt of onler hns hf'en r.:tfsec-1. ''r. Spcu,f.-cr, this sounds lite clehnte to me.

It is an explanation and an arr,ument being presented by the hen. member, vhich ht totnJly nut of m~~er • .,.,,c hnn. MeT1'hl'r for Trlnity-Dny rlc Verde (1'r, F, ~'T'. r. r>nl'F.: 'T'o that point of nrfl'er. T aubmit that the hen. of ft1uc<ltion Ciil in fnct 1evel 11 nomher of chttl'?;C'-!1 nt my colleapue nncl he shoulC he nfforile;rl tl>e opportunity at )east to respond to these ch;trp:es and try to point out t1 very scTious sHuation :In this­ particuJ.'tr cnse. I think soi'!C latitude should he given to this situation.

It is very difficult to, you know, auggest t-..•hat is (1£>hnte and .,._>hnt is not rlehate, hut the minister in feet hRs levelleV " chr~rp:e nnd hns attacked ny colleague - IT. ~PEAJ'EP: f\rrler, pJ P<lse! Orc1er, p] ense! J h-we hearrl the l10n. r,entlernan's suhrdfisfon on the po~nt of nrrler. ttf'. F. P.OWE: Pe E:hnuld be nl101-1ed to reply. ~·r. :,pe..,ker, to tl,nt point of order, Your Honour. If Your llonour pj1J recall in <mother ruling in another sittinp- of hem. House, Your Honour ruJecl that only those \olho ore Jeadera of rnrt-fes or spol:em"'ten for that pnrticul<'lr department, cl.lether it is 2129

Pecember 19, 1975 ~fll. NEII'PY: Tape 821 IB-2 the shado w cabinet or not, can speak on ministerial statements. If Your Honour ~-,ou1<1 recall, Your Honour ruled me out of order because I (licl not represent a group. Hell, Sir, I do not think that the hon. gentleman Hho is trying to speak now is a leader of a party or speaks for e(lucat:l .on for that particular group. >'f' • SPEAF'.ER : Orcler, please!

To deal "ith the latter matter first, the ruling at that time was the only members permitted to make any comment after a ministerial statement, to ask questions or to ask for an explanation) would be the leader of a recognized group or someone speaking on his beha.lf. Now if an hon. gentleman to my right rises I have to presume that he is speaking on behalf of, in this case, the J.eader of the Opposition.

Anybody else :In that caucus, including the Leader of the Oppositton,would be preclude(! from any further statement. t.Jith respect to the initial point of order 1 the rule is very clear, and that is that a member who is entitled to speak to it may ask some questions, ask for clarification or explanation, but he may not debate it in any way. He may not debate it in his reply to a ministerial statement. That doe s not mean,as was half sugyested, that the matter therefore cannot be debated.

Hhen an hen. member speaks on some motion where there is quite a broad relevancy, then obviously he may debate any number of things. Rut in his comments upon a ministerial statement the rule is very clear, that he may ask questions, ask for an explanation or make brief comments but may not debate it. The hen. member for Explo:l.ts O!r. l-lulrooney). >fll. MULitOONEY: l'r . Spe aker, the point that I was trying to bring out was the seriousness of th i s Rituat:lon Hhich does exist.

I am sorry that the ~inister of Education ~rely interpreted it as a statement about the integrity of teachers, because that was not my point in brin ging it up. 2130

necember 19, 1~75 Tape 821 lB-3 Orcler, please! nrder, please! The hon. pentlc~an is in rlehnte, Any further ministerial state!T!ents'l The hon. Jfinister of l~jnes noel Ener~y. f'l'. C'J'0SUIE: ~'r. Spea'Ver, last ni.g:ht the f;{lvernment of Cf!nadn-the Pr:!t!le l'in::lster announced certain actions that were being taken hy the Government of ~nnada in connection with federa1 r,overnment spendjo~ nnd ~tar,e and price guiile1ines.

To dnte we hnvc not received the detn.ile,l regulatlons under the ware nnd price guidelines,althoufl;h I imagine we nrc receiving thet'" now or ye "-"ill have them this afternoon. \Jell l-Jith reference to the Prime Yiniatcr'5 statement r,enerallyJ the governrnent of the Province, ~fr, f:p~alwr, tnkes the position that there ;fs need fC\T governtl'enta to restr:Jct spending or certainly to restrict incre~se in spen~ing at this time if inflation­ :! G to he t.9ckled in 11ny t-;ny tl:at :f.A mermingfu1.

Pe have recormized and t'ltetf'cl for some t:fl"'C that one C1f the prime cnusea of the -present :fnflntion fa govern~nt spenclfnp,, particularly that Qf the Government of r.Rnacla~whfch also controls our ~onetery system, the currency and cnn print currency, the Bank of Canada, and so on. So that jn general vc certninly Co not ounrreJ vith the concept that the Coverrunent of r.anncla hn~ got to cut bnck jts rnte of p,rowt.h and apenc'linp:. Insofar as the announcerreot last nifht :IB concerned, Hr.

Speaker, until ~-e lmvc fttll detnils,and until ve have full knovleilge it would be,I thfn~,siJly to enter :into detailed criticism, except to Ray that our position is end certainly will be that the priority in expenditures shoulD be ~iven by the t~vernmcnt of ranada as well ns our o~~ povcrnment to joh creation or emplo~nt opportunities in this Province Vhich is the aren of heavJest unemployment in the Tlornfnion of ranaPn.. Pc. hnvc 2131

necemher 19, 1975 Tape No. 822 ~!-! - 1 11~. CROSBIE: put that position to them.

As far as I know they do not disagree and the.refore we proceed under the assumption that •~hen their detailed estimates of spendinp. for next year are brought dmm that it will fulfill that concept 1 and we are therefore expecting thP Government of Canada to increase their spendfnp: on public works or the construction of marine facilities and the like in this Province to help overcome the unemployment situation, I notice they say that although LIP progralTillles are going to be cut back on, they will not cut back on them in areas of high unemployment,•vhich certainly i.ncludes t 11ts 'Province.

They have stated th.at n~EE spendinr; will not incrPase next yPar. Well, we cannot say what effect that has until \·!e sec exactly •··hat that mean!'\ in practice,or whether the ap:reements '-1e l1ave .sugp:Psted to them ,,,jl] he carried out next year,and "e will cF't:'ta i nl ,;· arp.:ue- >tnd ·~ilJ argue that DTUIE spending is not an area that shoulrl he. cut back if there is any attE'mpt to overcome regional rlismuity. HI? fE'.el tT1at the priority must be given to spending that creates employ~ent and v•e certainly have not been informed that the Government of Canada disagrees ~lith that. So, ~r.

Speaker, we •.-ill be v'atching closely in the next several months, because it w:!.ll take that long to find out ~~hat is really meant in detail~and •·re ,,,ill put the position of th:!s Province strongly to the federal governmPnt that there should be no cut hack :Ln expenditures in a high Unf'mployment area that would further increa,;e,or tend to increase,the unemployment in this area. This Province is dotn~ all it can '~ith :!.ts inflex1 hle horrmdng and financial s1tuat 1,on and as yet l'e have no reason to think that the Government of r:anada clisar,rees ,,,ith that pol:! cy. 1'1'.

SPEAKF.TI: Th• hon. membE'r for Trinity - Ray de Verde. "r R01Tr.: ''r. f;renl<er, T am extremely happy that the minister is in support of t l·.e l'ri .me 1'injster's statement last nlp.;ht, although he has not had an onportun i tv to analyze it fully. The Government of Canada is sett i n g a good example in the expenditure of their own money, and hopefully other governments~and other local governments as well as 2132

ncc~ml1cr 19, 1975 Tnpe No. 822 l.fP, T'mrf..: provinc:frtl p.nvemments and people trill Sl'.C fit to that cxampJ~, Sir.

He np.-rcc entirely with the niniRtcr in this huaincss of ns 1onr ns the priority is on job creation and, Sir, I would like to if J may, the minister in any negotiation th;tt he colleagueA will have with the federal government that they point not only this factor of the high unemployment areas but also try match up the hiph unemployment areas with areas that need public services, take that into account as well so that the provision of these public services will in fact provide employment for the people so that basically two birds are beinr, ca.up,ht And, Sir, T Ainccrely hope and I am sure that we on this aide will fip,ht ~11th this present r,overnrncnt to see to it that we will to pror,re~A and thnt the restraint prograrmne will not too effect any progress in this Province because ~e are still bit behind ~ith respect to the national avera~e ~hen we look nt the_ provision of fiOCial services and public services and other amenities of lif~ in this Provjnce. ~l"R.

SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Hi.nes and Enerf.Y. ;'R. CROSBIE: I do not Hant to be misinterpreted. I have not said that 1 ar;rce with the Prime Hinister's statement. I have said that we aeree with the concept that government spending nu~t be and controlled, whether ~e agree or disagree with ~hat the fedeTal­ governmcnt is doin~ and we can only say once we know what the real details are but the general approach that there has to be on expenditure we certainly agree with.

We have already heard of items including increases in ferry rates or fares between NeYfoundlarid nnd the l"lainland and other areas that we would have to ob.1ect to of their effect on the cost of livinR in this Province. But we agree thnt there h8s to be this approach. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING ANn SPF:C'T AT, COH}f!T!EES: }{R, SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Finance. 2133

December 19, 1975 Tape No. 822 NM- 3 MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I have the approval of the Rouse to table a special Lieutenant-Governor's warrant, I do not think this fs one the House will object to since it is an amount to pay the members' salaries, Because of the redistribution there a+e some extra a1110unts involved. There are also several sets of regulations.

Section 34 of the Public Serv:tc .e Pension :s Act requ:!res that the following regulations be tabled in the House, Public Service P~nsions Newfoundland Liquor Licensing Board Regulations, the Public Service Pension Laundry Services 2134

December 19, 1975, Tape 823, Page 1 -- apb HR. DOODY: t~~ulations and there is another set of re~ulations here too, Sir, but I am sure the han. members - oh! The tiasoline Tax amendment regulations - I am sure the han. members will be delighted to have some reading material over the Christmas Season. MR. SPEAKER: HR. CROSBIE: The bon. the Minister of Mines 8nd Energy. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table three copies of each of the following fiua~cial statements of Labrador Linerboard Limited.

First the financial statements for the year endinr, March 31, 1973- three copies of those- the financial statements for the vear ending March 31! 1974 and the nuditor's renort on the financial statements for the yenr ending March 31, 1975. Commercial production commenced at the Linerboard mill on Aoril 1, 1974, Mr. Speaker. 1 have been hopin~ that we would be able to debate this whole subject at this session but 1 guess we will not, Hr.

Speaker, hut if any member has any ~uestions or any exPlanations they want in connection with the finandal statements - or the press - I will be only to happy to try to explain any Hem they might wnnt further informAtion on. 1 certainly do want to see, Mr. Speaker, in this session, or when Ye come back a~ain this winter, to have a full examination of Labrador Linerboard Limited's operations because I can aesure members of~the han. House that there is no reason for anything to be hidden, and I will be 2lad of a chance to shaY how much hae been done. These are the financial statements. SOME liON.

MEMBF.RS ;_ Henr, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN (see 'HR. SPEAKER: The bon, the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I have a number of items here, Sir. by the bon. the member for Twillingate (Mr. SmallYOOd), Nos. 145, 151, 175, 152, 222. I will not read them out, Sir, there are a lot of statistics that I am sure will prove valuable to the editor the new volumes. And one question, No.612, asked hy the member for 2135

December 19, 1975, Tape 823, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: regarding the subsidy paid to Newfoundland Transportation Company during the months of August and September. MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: How much was it? $91,500. What? $1,500 a day for sixty-one days. There were no other expenditures involved in the programme. MR. NEARY: $91,000! MR. DOODY: $91,500. for the year . ~. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Health. MR.

COLLINS: I undertook to get some information for the bon. the member for LaPoile concerning the number of hospital boards in the Province; The number of boards, twenty,and the number 6f hospitals operated under boards, twenty-five. The reason for the anomaly there is that the IGA, the International Grenfell Association,is regarded as one board but they operate several hospitals. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Mount Pearl. MR. NEIL WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I should like to table the answer to a number of questions directed to the bon. the Premier by the bon. the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood).

Questions Nos. 73, 74 and 87 which are similar questions, and 75, 93 and 80. MR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: The bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the answers to questions put on the Order Paper of November 24: Nos, 459, 460, 461, 462, 463, 465, 466, 467 and 470, all asked by the hon. the member for Port de Grave. I might point out, Mr. Speaker, in relation to Question No. 467, the question being ;what the St. John's Housing Corporation, or how many houses have they developed over the last few years.

It might be interesting for hon. members who live in the city or hon. members who represent constituencies in the city, to point out that the St. John's Housing Cornoration does not develop units but develops building sites for contractors to build units upon, and 2136

December 19, 1975 Mr. Peckford. Tap-e no, 824 Page that in 1970 they developed 104; 1971, 117; 1972, 43; in January 1973 to March 1974, they developed 811 and from April 1974 to March 1975, 348 for a grand total of 1,423 in the last five years.< I thought han. members might be interested in me reading out the statistics that parti~ular corporation that comes under yours truly~ There was one other one here that might be of some interest. Of course, all of them are, and most of them have to do housing.

There is one on sewage present there are aewa~e treatment plants in the follwing placeS_: the Province: Appleton, Badger, Baie Verte, Bonaviata, Cow Head, Holyrood, Labrador City, LumBden, Millertown, Norris Point, Red Racrbc>iirc Rocky Harbour, Seal Cove, White Bay, Spaniard's Bay, St. Anthony, Victoria, Wabana, partially, Wareham, Wedgewood Paik, Whitbourne Glenwood. Mr. Speaker, I table the remainder answers along with that I have pointed out. PIR1 SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: ORAL QUESTIONS: The han. member for Burgee- Bay-a'Espotr. Thank you1 Mr. Speaker.

I \/Ould like to direct a couple of questions to the-­ Minister of Tourism. The time ran out ytaterday 1 and I never got down to all the questions. Some of them were answered for me ~ri the paper today. I have same others. First of all, Mr. Speaker, a for the Minister of Tourism. Would he indicate ~ether the Cabot­ Company has performed ita contract 'ilith the Department of Tourism,­ contract or r.octracta? Well, first of all 1 haw many contracts vere involved? Are the contracts fully performed? MR._~£¥-.!.R;: The hon. Minister of Tourism. ~HICKEY_;_ Mr.

Speaker, I cannot give the han. member the .exact I do not think there are very many. Two comes to mind immediately. the best of my knowledge the work vas performed and was acceptable.~ was not any problem there. Payment was made. As a result of the 2137

December 19, 1975 Tape no. 824 Page 2 - D1W MR. HICKEY: questions yesterday and also some rumours with regards to the same issue, I have asked my staff to prepare for me a list, and also to prepare for me the dates when payment was made to the company. I wfght also tell my hon. friend that no contracts, no work, was awarded or no contracts were entered into with that company since June, I beiieve, of the present year. MR. SIMMONS: - ----- Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Mr.

Speaker, it is my understanding from the minister's comments and otherwise that the work performed was printing." Both contracts were printing various pamphlets for government. I also understand that Cabot Group 4 is not a print~ng company, and I wonder if the minister wouid indicate how this group or this company was initially allowed to bid on a printing tender? ~._SPEAK~R..:_ The hon. Minister of Tourism. ~_HI.<!!<.~= Mr.

Speaker, you know, I could very well refer my hon. friend to the Minister of Public Works and Services or t~e Acting Minister of Public Works and Services, but that would be arrogant,! would suggest,so I will answer it myself. Net~her the Minister of Public Works and Services, whomever he might be at the time, nor myself or any other minister has any control over who bids on any particular job or any particular project the government might find itself involved in. It is a free country. MR. SIMMONS: Unless it was a selective tender. ~R. HICKEY~ Pardon? MR. SIMMONS: Unless it was a selective tender call. MR.

HICKEY: I suppose that might very well be, but, Mr. Speaker, when services are required by government and a tender is called, any company, and I have stated this in relation to this company before in this House in debate, any company,all they need to do is to contact Public Works and Services, have their name put on a list,and they may then proceed to tender on .anything that comes up. With regards to the' award of the tenders, the 2138

Decemb~r 19, 1975 Tape 825 PK- 1 Mr. Hick~y: award of contract that the bon. member refara to, I have said before,and it probably bears repeating in view of the seriousness of the situation at the moment,that it is not necessarily required by my department or any other dapar~nt,I suppose,that a firm producing a service or producing ~rk for the gove~nt that they in fact themselves do it.

Really the department in question, and certainly my department, insofar as my staff vere concerned,were interested in two things~first and foremost,the lowest tender; the d~livery date of the material required and the capability - reasonable assurances of the capability of the firm to meet that deadline, and,of course,the quality of the work. I might point out also to my bon. friend with regards to the award of contract for road mapst Yesterday, I think,he raised a question, and in asking the question mentioned the fact that they were printed outside of the Province.

In discussion with a gentl~ from Robinson Blackmore, a well known Newfoundland firm, in fact one of the firms ~o bid on this particular tender, who came in aec~nd by quite a large amount of money, something like $15,000 or $16,000, the gentleman informed me that even his firm,which is the largest one in the Province in terms of printing, could not have produced that map. Had they been awarded the contract they would have certainly done some work, but a certain aspect of production of that map would_ have hsd to go outside of the Province.

So there is nothing unique _ or unusual about the fact that the map was done outside of thm Prov~nc~f It could not be done in the Province aoyYay. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEJ.!(ER: A supplementary, then I will recognize tha bon. membe_r from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), after this supplementary. MR. S!HMONS: Mr. Speaker, first of all for clarification. Did the minister just say that the firm, the local firm he named was the lawest bidder or ? MR. HICKEY: Yes, 2139

December 19, 1975 Tape 825 PK- 2 MR. SIMMONS: Yes. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary then for the minister: Will he confirm that Cabot Group 4 was not the lowest bidder, but the second lowest bidder on both contracts which they were awarded, they were the second lowest in both cases, and another local firm~which I could name,was indeed the lowest biddert Will he confirm this? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of tourism. MR. HICKEY: No, Mr.

Speaker, I certainly will not confirm it, and if the bon. gentleman has any information to substantiate that statement then I would certainly like to have it because I would like to know who have ·misled me, because those are not the figures that I have knowledge of.

The only information that I have and what comes to mind­ and I am talking back now something like seven, eight, maybe nine months ago-to the best of my knowledge,arid I will be delighted to dig out this information for the hon. gentleman because there is really nothing to cover or to hide about it, it all has been trashed out before, to the best of my knowledge this company was the lowest. I can recall quite vividly the contract with regards to road maps because that was one,and the fact that the maps were going to be printed outside of the Province did not make myself or my officials happy,to aay the least.

There was a differential of approximatly $16,000. The price quoted by Cabot Group 4 on that contract,in rough figures,was eighteen thousand some hundred dollars. The quote by Robinson Blackmore on that same tender was thirty-five thousand some hundred dollars. Now it does not take a mathamatican to figure out the difference in between. And I as minister in recommending to Public Works and Services- and that was my only input, a recommendation, I did not award any contracts.

I do not have that right, but we do comment on the tenders when they come to us - and my recommendation was that I felt I had no alternative but to recommend the award of a contract to the lowest bidder. I certainly do not have the authority to wash $16,000 of public money down the drain. MR. SIMMONS: A further supplementary1 2140

December 19, 1975, Tape 825, Pa~e 3 - PK HR. SPEAKF.R: I indicated that after the latter supplementary I vould reco~i~~ nnothPr member, The hon. the member from LaPoile ("{r. Neary). HR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, 2141

December 19, 1975 Tape 826 IB-1 Mr. Neary: is the ~inister of Finance aware that in a written answer that was given to a question that I asked recently that an analysis of the total arrears of the Retail Sales Tax in his department is $2,185,000? If the minister is aware of it, does the minister not think that he owes the House and the people of this Province an explanation of why this arrears is so big? What :Is being done about it? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. HP. DOODY: Sir, there are certainly arrears and certainly the amounts that the hon. member mentioned are the accurate amounts.

This is lmy I answered the question which the member asked. The amount is large and it continues to be large. The staff - as we try to get staff who are competent and capable, we are increasing at the rate that we possjh] y can, 1>7:f.thin limits. We are trying to chase after these accounts and keep up with them. The Province is big. The auditing staff is relatively small. Everyth:l.ng that is possible is beinp, done to collect the delinquent accounts. The pressure is being applied as rapidly and as fervently as possible.

I have every confidence that the department is doing a good job. rerta:lnly its efficiency is increasing year by year, but the job gets bigrer year by year. 1'11. NF.Al''Y: Call in the /\ucH tor (',eneral. MT'. DOODY: The Auditor Genera] has access to all the books of every nepartment of p.overnment even :In the days of the hon. member's ministry, fortunately for the pub] :I.e. MR. NEARY: Whv was that? MR. DOODY: I have no idea, Sir. I can only assure the Rouse and the people that the depart~ent and the officials of it are doing the best possible job to collect the amounts that are in arrears. ~~.

SPEAKE I': The hon. member for LaPoile (}tr. Neary) • ~IT'. NEARY: }'r. Speaker, I ~rould like to ask the Minister of Justice, Sir, to his knowledge is there any telephone bugging going on in Newfoundland either by the Newfoundland Constabulary or the ReM?? l'f!'. SPEAKER: }f1l • HI CK}lAN : The hon. the ~finister of Justice. }lr. Speaker, there is a question to that same effect 2142

December 19, 1975 ](f', HH1\}' AN ! Tape 826 on the Order Paper, and I pointecl out very clearly at that t1we~ I have for~otten the

section of the Criminal rode of Canada, that that matter can - no, no, it ia a federal matter in one sense-but under the provisions of the rriminal Code of Canada I am oblieed to­ table in the Rouse that information annually as I did last year and I will do it ap:ain this year in 1976. HR. SPEAKEP.: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Pr. Flight). ~. FLIGHT: I ~ish to acldress this question to the Yiniater of Manpower and Industrial Pelationa. In view of the recent events in St.

Lawrence Whereby the union have rejected a new contract offer,an~ the company's statements something to the effect that this places the future operation in very grave doubt, what is this government's appro-ach to the situation as it now exists in St. La'!n'ence? J.'R. SPEAKER: The hon. ~tfnfster of Manpower and Industrial Pelations. _:m .• ?~AYNAPD: Pr. Speaker, as far as conciliation or mediation servie•;, arc concerned, we have eone the limit on that one. We have gone through every ptncedure we could go through. What ~e will do from here on, I do not know.

It will have to be a government decision, and 1 cannot' wake~ decis1on on behalf of the government. 14'. SPEAKEP: 'The hon. rroemher- for T.a'Po:lle (1-(r. Neary). 1-m. NEARY: t·fr. Speaker, I wou1dlike to ask the ~fjnf.ster of Manpoller how he 1s makinr. out with the arran~ements to try to get the representatives of the p.aper companies and the unions together to resolve the dispute in the paper industry in Newfoundland? 1<'R. YATIIAPD: ¥r.

Speaker, there has been a meeting arranged for tomorrow afternoon in Corner Brook ~ereby we ~nll meet representatives from all three mills, that is the unions in alJ three mills. ~self­ and the hon. ~'inister of Inrlustrial Development and the bon. Leader will meet vith some off1cials, with the union people 1 to explore the situBt1on nnd see whether or not since the ~nti-inflation Board ruline haR heen made, there is any basis for A settlement MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile (¥r. Neary). HR. NEA~Y: Pr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. 2143

necember 19, 1975 MP . NE r>V : Ti!pe 8.26 I.B-3 Would the minister tell the Rouse what action is being taken by his department or. by any other departmen .t of government to try to avert a strike in the Waterford Hospital and Exon Rouse as scheduled to take place in the New Year? MJ! • SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower. MR. MAYNABD~ Mr.

Speaker, that question can be more adequately answered by the President of Treasury Board, His officials, I understand, have been in constant contact with the union and I would assume that they have mi!de some progress. 'R. l)()OPY: I answered that question a few days ago, Your Honour. The officials of Treasury Board are in communication on a regular basis with the officials of the union. The Conciliation Board report which was signed by the president and by the government representative, but which the union representative did not sign, is in the hands of government.

Wit!!. one or two minor. exceptions government is quite prepared to accept the Conc:l.liation Board Report. Other than that we have asked them to be reasonable and to respect the responsibilities that they have. As I said, we are quite willing to talk to them at any time. Indeed, as I said, the officials of Treasury Board are talking with the officials of the union almost on a daily basis. Indeed yesterday when I checked with them, they had haC! conversation that day with the union people. 2144

December 19, 1975 Tape no. 827 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. HR. SDtfONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to get back to the Minister of Tourism. I have a couple of other questions for him on the sa111e subject. I wonder would the miniatar confirm whether_ the first tender call in respect of the two jobs for which Cabot subsequently received a contract, whether the first tender call cancelled on the deadline day for the receipt of tenders and that a second tender call was put out subsequently? Is this correct or not? I understand it is.

I would like for the minister to if this is the case, HR._SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Tourism., HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, again to the best of my knowledge,- and I \rill be glad to check back, becauae the same information, the same question, th~ same information was provided to the Rouse duri11g'; the last sitting- to the best of my knowledge there was a because there was no need for me to be involved.

It was taken between Public Works and Services and rt:rt officials was an error made with regards to the number of pages in find nothing unusual about that, I would say to my hon. friend. know lolhat he might be told, but this l-1hole issue has been taken context from way back when. I simply want to say, Your Honour, this firm. There \las nothing unusual at all. I noticed today in the paper that there is a reference to a Mr. !rown being a cloSe friend of mine. Now I lolould like for someone to define lolhat a close friend is.

Certainly if someone1 or if the ~entleman Who writes 'this piece in the paper today, is implying in any way that Mr. Brown. then I am Afraid again,as usual, this gentleman as well as some connected with The Evening T~legram ~re barking up the vrong tree, 2145

December 19, 1975 ~m. HICKEY: Tape no. 827 Page 2- mw I did not know that I was not permitted to do business with people whom I classed at the time as friends, But if for the benefit of hon. gentlemen and for the hon. House, Mr. Speaker, if somebody considers that a great friendship,then the honeymoon is long over. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: I should perhaps ask the hon. gentleman to confine his remarks to answering the question. I realize that might becessitate certain explanations, but I am not sure that all of the references were indeed in answer to the que8t~on.

I recognize the hon. gentleman for a supplementary. ~---S~~O~~: Mr. Speaker, I understand from the minister that there was a recalr. lvould he confirm that Cabot Group 4 did not submit a bid on the original tender call? MR. HICKEY: I am unaware of that situation, Mr. Speake -r. I will gladly check it out, and I will be more than willing and delighted to co-operate with my hon. friend. I refer to one contract~or certainly a certain project,with regards to covers for brochures where public tendering, in the strict sense, was not adhered to,and that is with regards to art work and price.

When the hon. gentleman indicated earlier that this company was awarded work while not having the lowest price, this is true. There is one particular instance where this firm was awarded a contract, as such, if you want to call it a contract, or was contracted to do certain work. This was with regards to the cover of brochures which is based on pure art work, not cost, not unit price or anything of that nature. In fact it really should not have been tendered for.

It should have been done through proposals, but as it turns out there had been a tender call, or something that was close to or would be considered a tender call,and in this particular instance my officials recommended to me that we accept the proposal or what have you by 2146

December 19, 1975 Tape 828 PK- 1 Hr. Hickey: Cabot Group 4,it being the best art ~ark for the covers of the brochures. I concurred,and as I recall, and I do not have the figures, that price vas not the lawe~t, but the aecond lowest, and to the best of my knowledge it amounted to ~450. per cover, a total of four, I believe, Ybich Yas something like eighteen hundred and fifty some dollars. HR. SPEAKER: The hon • .ember from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, 1 ~ould like to ask the Minister of Justice if there is currently a waiting list for admission to Her Majesty 1 s Penitentiary? AN HON.

MEMBER: Are you waJtin~ to get in7 MR. HICKMAN: Hr. Speaker, there is not a waiting list. HR. DOODY: We could arrange for accommodations for him 1though. HR. HICKMAN: The Benitentiary and the Salmonier Institution as of yesterday were operating at maximum capacity. There will be some releases, the customary early release~ prior to Christmas. There may be a few convicted persons who are presently awaiting ' to the Penitentiary, but the superintendent told me yesterday that he does not anticipate any problema there. There is a significance in all of this, Mr.

Speaker, and the significance is this 1 that obviously the law enforcement agencies in this Province and our courts are working very, very effectively and they are to be commended for it, - SOME HDN, MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: - as are the - in fact th~ Administration of Justice has never been functioning as well as it is functioning right now, - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear: MR. HICKMAN: nor have the lew enforcement officers ever been held in higher repute than they are right now, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: After this supplementary, I will recogni%e the bon. member from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan). MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir, to the minister. Is it a fact that Her Majesty's Penitentiary is operating at maximum capacity? 2147

December 19, 1975, Tape 821, Page 2 -- PK "'R. NEARY: Is this fact forcing the magistrates and courts in this Province to grant suspended sentences rather than jail terms? MR. HICKMAN: I am fully aware of the hon. gentleman's views on law and order and his right wing attitude towards that. Mr. Speaker, it most assuredly is not. The courts do not take into consideration, nor should they take into consideration,nor is it a relevant consideration when deciding on a sentence as to what the capacity to accommodate is at Her Majesty's Penitentiary.

I would hope that the courts - and I have confidence in our courts - in arriving at a sentence they take into account several facts; one, the deterrent feature that is so necessary; two, the convicted person5 record; and three, which I know is not popular any more, and number thre~ in fact I think it is number one the possibility of rehabilitating the convicted person and to ensure that he or she will not ag~in run afoul the law, And if that can be done without incarceration I hope that that is the philosophy that is accepted by our courts even though in today's right wing society, nail-them-and-jail-them seems to be the order of the day.

MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated that I will recognize the bon. member for Conception Bay South next, If the han. gentleman yields, that is his decision, because I can only recognize one at a time. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question to the minister? MR. NOLAN: I think I will yield, yes, MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the minister a ~upplementary question in connection with jails throughout Newfoundland where prisoners are merely to be kept overnight; are there any instances in Newfoundland where prisoners are being kept in these jails for several weeks on a stretch? MR. CROSBIE: Only at their request. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR • lliC!QfAN : ------- Mr. Speaker, not for several weeks, but there are instances, particularly in one or two of the larger areas,where convicted persons have had to wait for several days, sometimes in 2148

December 19, 1975 Tape 828 Hr. Hickman: excess of a ~eek,maybe. even two weaks,unfortunately, in the c~todi~l facilities that are provided in theee other parts of the Province. MR. NEARY: Are these jails equipped? MR. HICKMAN: They are not penitentiaries. We have fairly large facilities in Corner Brook in the nev public building there, 2149

necember lQ, 1975 >11". HH'J{>'ii.N: Tape 829 IB-1 and anyone who finds himself or herself in custody there ~ets very excellent treatment, at least food-wise and as far as the custody is concerned, llnfortunately there is not the same recreational facilities as one would find at the penitentiary. ~m. C~ORBIE: Discrimination apainst St. John's, is it not? ~~p. SPF.AKEF: The hon. member for Conception Bay South (:Mr. Nolan) • MR. NOLAN: A question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications, "r.

Speaker. r.ould the minister tell us if any contracts for snow clearing for the district of Conception Bay South have been a1o1arcled and were tenders called for same? ~. SPEAKEP: The hon. ~·inister of Trans~ortation and Communications. "" }!ORGAN: No, Mr. Rpeaker, there have been no contracts, but we have h:ired a numher of imHviclual pieces of equipment i.n areas where we do not have sufficient equipment owned by the department.

Normally the people who are interested in having their eouipment hired submit their names to the department and the department then checks it out to ~ake sure the equipment is in p,ood condition, number onejand that thPy have reliable operators. If so, they hire them on that basis. 1<11'. <;PEAKF.T>: The hon. memher for !lurgeo-Ray !1 'Espoir (Yr. Si.mmons). }!R. SI1AMONS: Another quest 1 on for the }'ini s ter of Tourism, on another sub_iect~he will pleased to hear. Hould the minister indicate t•hether any selection of this Herita~e Community has been made yet or what the progress is on that subject? tiP.

RPEAKEF: The hon. ~inister of Touri ,sm. 1-'P. HICKEY: No, ~·r. Speaker, no selection has been made. There is "' steering committee set up, Nr. Speaker, made up of federal offic:lals, such people as the parks people and the people from historic resources and Heritage Canada, my own staff. This committee, their terms of reference is to determine just what the hasis ~~uld be for such a decision, ~<•hat things wou]d he taken into account to establish the mileage fron a large center~or whatever the case may be, whether the Heritage Village tJould be a live village, partially l,ive, or a reconstructec'! village. 2150

necemher 19, 1975 Tape 829 1-.m. SPF.AY&n: TilC han. memhcr for Dur.in-Placentia (Hr. Canning). Pr. rA:miiNC: l'r. Speaker, l have a question far the t1inister of Fisheries. Peferrjng to the penrline sale of the fish plant at "-'aryntown, is it the intent of the r;overnment to sell the plant, dra~cers, ~11 in one packnge, the drap,pers, plant And gear to the same concern tht~t v1Jl buy the structure, buy the plant? Pl'. SPEAKEr: The han. Fin:lster of FisherieB. tm. 4. rAPTRP: t~r. Spenker, ve hnve receive~ two proposals purchase of the flsh pJ nnt. In hoth cnses the c1rapp:ers vere pnrt of the deal. }IT'.

SPFN-':EP: ~'1', Nr'.ARY: The bon. f!'lemher for I,aPoile (Pr. lknry). Pr, Speaker, wouJd the ~'iniater of Pinnncp tell the !louse • Sir • what nctinn he or his ~epnrtr<1ent hnve tnVen to collect royAl tiPs in arr<>nrs From Labrador Pining nnil fxplornt1on \ompnny? 1 'P • SPI:AKICP: The htm. Pin1s ter of Finance. r-<T~. noDDY: nf[ th.: top of T"!Y t1enil, no, Sir, I C'nnnot. I can gc:>t the inform:ttion for the hon. mef!'lher. I nssumc that the nonnnJ, yon Vnow, route hfls been fo]]ov:ei!, I really do not know. I can it out and finn nut. Is tlwre n reason for this one e,;:ception? ''r.

NPJ\11Y: 'fTl. l)()()DY: Honour. t<r. Hl'.:APY: Yes, it \-'<IS fn the Auilitor Genern] 's report. nh, in that cnse it is hein~ studiously pursued, Your ~r. Spea¥er, right oTf the top of the minister's hend. could the l"'jnistPr tel) the J!oune ''hat is be:f.ng done about tunctr:fran Concrete (F.nst) rfrnm in the \fuite Rills? Hnve they come to nny aettl('tnent or nny ngreemcnt, :md if so, mmlrl the minister nr.ree to tnhJc the tenns nf the nf!reement or the settlement :If they hnve rome to any nr:rccMent? t"'. SPPAl~Er>: The hon. "inister of FfnnncP. "T. nonnY: I tdJJ taJ:e it under nclvisernent and find out.

I Cic'l not kno1.-r that l.ttndrip,;m 1s Concrete (East) IMd a problem but if they do, T \."i)] certnin1y look into it for the hon. meTTiher. 2151

ne r.ember 19, 1975 't'ape 1\29 IB-3 You tlo not read the Auclitor Gener.a] 's reports? m. N\OTW: MP .• NEARY: T only ·read the sections l'l.ealing "~orith my departl!lent. ~·r. Speaker, off the top of the minister's head again, could he tell the Rouse what steps he has taken to get the Arts and Culture r.enter in St. John's to comply to the Financial Administration Act, 1973 as recommended by the. Auditor Cene .ral? ~'P. SPEAKEP: The bon. }'in:l.ster of Finan .ce. ~"P . J)()I'IDY: Appropriate steps have been taken, Sir • We have instructed the management to comply with the Financial Adl!linistration Act. ~ .

SPEAKEP: I should point out this will be the last question and answer because of the passage of time. MP. nooOY: That '~>"as off the top of my head, Your Honour. MP. NEARY: Mr. ~peaker, would the }'inister of Finance tell the House if it is the cu$tom or the policy of his department upon request to send cheques for payment to ministers of various departments when the l:lepa.rtment of Finance is asked to do so?

If so, if this practice is beint followecl by the department' would the minister indicate under what circtll"stances cheques would be sent to l!linisters to be paid cut for various w0r~ that is being done for the ~overnment? 2152

n~cember 19, 1975 Taoe 830 RR - HR. SPFAKF.R: The han. the '"finis ter of Finance. "". DOODY: I do not quite follow the - HR. NEARY: Well·let me put the question 5imply. ~R. DOODY: Yes, can you try to unscramble it? MR. NEARY: Well, would the minister tell the House oaid directly from the Department of Finance to neople who are owed money or are they sent to ministers and then paid out by the ministers of the various dennrtments? MR. DOODY: To the best of my knowled~e the Department of Finane~ m.""tilR the cheoues out to the various accounts thnt are due thl" money.

There rnny have been exceptions but certainly not that I am aware of, Your Honour. T cln not know. 1 assume that thev are all mailed out. Maybe some miniRters deliver them to save postaRe. 1 do not knov, "m. NF.A RY : Well would the minister undertake to check to see if, say, in the last venr if nny ministers have asked to have specific cheques dt!livered to thm no they can peraonally deliver the cheques?- ~lR. DOODY: I cannot -yes, as a matter of fact, I myself have delivered several cheques durinp, the past year. During the mail t delivered one to Harbour Main and one to Conception Harbour. HR.

NEARY: I arn not talking about the mail strike. Later on the minister will find out whnt I am talkin~ about. !!.~WELLS: HR. SPEAKER: ORDERS OF Tim DAY: Hot:fon 4, ~lr. Speaker. Motion 4. Hotion, the han. the Minister of Hunicinal Affair!'! and Housing to introduce a hill, "An Act Further To Amend The Asses$lllent Act, 01 carried. (Bill No. 16). On motion Dill No. 16, read a first time ordered read a Recond time presently by leave. On motion Bill No. 16, read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House now bv leav~.

On motion that the !louse resolve itself into n Committee of the Whole on said bill, Hr. Speaker left the Chair. 2153

DPCPmber 19, 1975 Tane 830 RH - 2 A hill, "An Act Further To Amend The A,;sessment Act." (No. 11;) nn motion clause,; 1 and 2, carr.:fed. Motion th11t the Cornmitte>e renort the bill \<i,thout ampnclment, carrie<!. 2154

December 19, 1975 Tape no. 831 Page 1 .... mw MR. \/ELLS: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise and report having made progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion that the Committee rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again, tfr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr. Collins): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole reports having considered the matters to them referred and having passed Bill No. 16 without amendment, and ask leave to sit again. MR.

SPEAKER: The Committee of the Whole reports that they have considered the matters to them referred and have dj·ected him to report Bill No, 16 passed ~ithout amendment. On motion report received and adopted. On motion bill ordered read a third time now by leave._ On motion a bill, 11

An Act Further To Amend The Assessment Act, 11 (Bill No. 16), read a third time, ordered passed a.r:d title be as on the Order Paper. ""1R. C::::Pf.AKF.R: Motion (1). ~m. WHITE: J.lr. Speaker, when I w-as concluding my few remarks the day before yesterday, I think, I pointed out to members that I was dealinr; with the BRINCO takeover and the company and the Upper Churchill project, because there had been a number of things on my mind before I came into politics that I wanted to express no~ that I arn into it.

I was pointing out, Sir, that the $3 million study undertaken by BRINCO on the Lover Churchill project ~as probably a little more realistic in the sense that a private company usually uses ita own people to conduct a study of that magnitude, and the private company~ I maintain~has to make sure that its studies are in the best interests of that company, and they are not going to go into something head on and lose a barrel of money and bungle the project in the meantime.

But, Sir, at the time there was some suggestion that the Lower Churchill-or BRINCO \i'ould not make the study government, the study on the Lower Churchill. There is good reason, 2155

December 19 , 1 975 Tape no. 831 Page 2 Mr. White. Although the gentleman who wrote the book on BRINCO does not know the real reason, I would like to remind this House about a company known as North Pmver, and I wonder how many hon. gentlemen remember that particular company. I am sure some people will probably remember the formation of North Pmver. It was formed, Sir, back a few years ago when the then Executive Assistant to the Premier, Dr. Stuart Peters, left the Premier's office to go to work for North Power.

It was rumoured at the time, Sir, and a rumour that I am sure BRINCO was probably aware of,that North Power would probably be the Shaheen subsidiary that might eventually develop the Lower Churchj-11 project, and I suggest this is probably why the $3 million study that BRINCO had done on the Lower Churchill was not made available to Teshmont-zinder nor to the government. It all adds up to my contention, Sir, that this government was determined to pick apart the Churchill Falls Labrador Corporation no matter what the cost. Then the government wonders why the $3 million BRINCO study was not made available.

How could BRINCO make such studies available when it stood the chance of losing the project after investing money into it up to that period? It strikes me, Mr. Speaker, as a government three years in office, or almost three years in office still playing checkers when they should have been playing chess. Mr. Speaker, when they tried to change around the moves and shift around the checkers on the industrial checkerboard of the Province I am not so sure that the moves they made were as good as the ones that had been made before.

Was there also a desire, Sir, on the part of this government to play with putting together a major corporation in terms of Newfoundland Hydro, such as had been done before by the previous administration - again an example of the government trying to flex its muscles. Did they want to play around 2156

Dec~mber 19, 1975 Tnpe no. 831 Page 3 - mw ~ir. Whitd-. with a major corporation, Mr, Speaker, a corporation with an executive jet, apartments in ~~ntreal, among other things7 Sir, I want to bring up the subject of unnecessary expenditures by Newfoundland Hydro. Up to this point I do not think anyone else has mentioned it... The Hinister of Hines and Energy ia going to conclude the debate, and I want him to answer some questions with reS!lCCt to what kind of control 1:'1 maintained over Newfoundland Hydro with respect to expenditures of that particular corporation.

How much money is being wasted on jet flights back and forth to }bntreal nnd other unnamed spots? ~10 has control over this executive jct7 I would like to see the log: of Newfoundland Hydro executive jet, Sir, tabled in the House for all han. trembers to see, Arc the stories that we hear true7 I do not know if they are, t!r. Speaker, but I have been told some things since I came into the House in reference to the executive jet.

I was told one story about an official of Newfoundland Hydro not being able to go to Hontrcal on a certain business matter because there was a wife of a cabinet minister on the exccutive jet on that particular­ occasion. I a~ asking the question, Sir. I am making no remarks or saying anything about it. 1 just want an answer to the question. MR. CROSBIE: Point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! fiR. CROSBIE: That is not a suggestion, that is a piece of elander5 in addition to which Newfoundland Hydro 2157

December 19, 1975 Tape 832 PK - 1 MR. CROSBIE: employees travelling on business use passes on EPA. There is no wrongdoing wnatsoever. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. It is not a slander, it is a stated question put by my colleague from Lewisporte (Mr. White) and it simply asked the minister when he closes the debate on this bill to answer that particular question. There is a question being asked. It i~ not slanderous in any way whatsoever. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. CROSBIE: Hr.

Speaker, how can anyone answer an unsubstantiated, undetailed allegation that a jet plane was held up one day because some cabinet minister's wife wanted to go on it? What cabinet minister's wife and so on? You know, you have to have some detail before you can answer a loose - AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. CROSBIE: - piece of slander like that. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, it was not meant as a piece of slander, it was meant as a question and if the bon. member wants me to get details I can probably get it for him. MR. CROSBIE: Yes he should. MR. WHitE: And which I will probably do, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER (COLLINS): Well the Chair would deem therefore that there is not a point of order before the Chair at the moment, but that further details will be forthcoming if the bon. member wishes to pursue the matter further. MR. WHITE: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to pursue that particular ,matter any further,not at least not in this particular debate at the present moment. But in future debates it may come up again.

So I maintain, Sir, that it was a matter in connection with the takeover of the Upper Churchill,or the Churchill Falls Labrador Corporation, a matter of improper research, and a matter, Sir, of not seeing the forest of facts for the tree of political enmity that existed, and the desire to pick a part a major corporation. I also maintain,Sir, that in retrospect the Upper Churchill project may not have gone ahead, and the over $1 billion poured into that project, uplifting 2158

December 19, 1975 Tape 832 PK - 2 Hr. White: the economy of Newfoundland if it had not been done the way it was done in the first place. And what about the takeover, Mr. Speaker? I recall as a newsman the developments on the Canadian Press printer on Harch 11, 1g71,, I think it was a holiday or a snO'iol storm of something, Sir, 1 do not remember, but I think the stock market tipped the prese off in those days, and even then a chill went up my spine when I realized the magnitude of what this government was undertaking and the way in which they were doing it.

Are not matters of this Sir, carried out during the process of negotiations? Could not this government have carried out far better negotiations with BRINCO and maybe come to a deal that wotlld have seen BRINCO maintaining an >n<elceE« in this Province and going on to great development in years to come? J\H liON. HEHTIER: Hear, hear!

I remember, Sir, the major publicity campaign put on by this government when the takeover occurred, and I might say it was one of the better public relations campaiens that I have seen this p,overnment undertake since they came into office, Now the administration of the Province, Sir, finds that it would be an exorbitant cost to undertake the Lower Churchill as was pointed out by BRINCO at the time of negotiations. I think it was suggested then, Sir, that the cost of bringing power to St. would be such that it would result in the tripling of the price tag on the !,ower Churchill.

That was only a few years ago. }ffi._l~ It still seems to me, Sir, t~at some way should have been found to carry on negotiations with BRINCO, have them develop the Lower Churchill back in those days, and for the retent~on of some power so th~t we could have brought it to the Island for future generations, then we could have accessed it to the Island, Sir, qy way of a tunnel in future Years. 2159

December 19, 1975 Tape 832 PK - 3 Mr. lfuite : Mr. Speaker, an even more. important aspect of this undertaking by the government might be the long-range effects that it had on future prospects for major developments in Newf~undland. It must be remembered that tha buy out of BRINCO was very unlike similar negotiations of similar projects undertaken throughout Canada, as I mentioned in my speech earlier. One of the differences, Sir, was that the project wa.s being taken over bef.ore shareholders who had ris.ked capita! and placed investments in this project had received any divident.

Why did not the government choose to take over a company like the one in Buchans, Sir, that had been indirectly rippiP8 off this Province for long, for so many years? I am not even so sure, Sir, that the government's belief at the time that it was a popular political move in Newfoundland was well-founded, I am sure that the former Premier (Mr. Smallwood) remembers well how when he suggested the takeover of Bowaters prior to the 1971 election that it might have cost him thousands of votes and maybe even the election at that time. I am not even sure, 2160

fiecenher 19, 1Q75 HT', 'fl!TTf:: Tnpe R33 ,':ir, thnt the rovernment would have won the polls hail it r,one to the people on the hasis of that tRkeover hid as some people suggest they \..'ou1d have. People ~re suspJc:foufl of goveml'!\Cnt-run corporations l rn;tintni.n, ~·r. Spe,,ker. They 11ave hail too tl"any bnd experienC"es with such th:inF!fl ns the post office, rnnaOinn National, /IJr canada nnd novr you can probably .qcld others to that as well. It is <'I i!tfferent case, ,r, Spenker, uith the potash jnduatry in 5oakntchewon.

There you hnve n clear-cut case wklere corport~tions, aorne of them otmed by non-rf1nai!innR, hnve been taJrinr, untolrl rnilllons from the provinces resources, much of it leavine; ~nskntchewnn a1to~ether. 7hnt was not the case of the Chruchill ralls Labrt~dor r:nrporntion, Sir. There they had not even Rotten f1round to the stnrt of tnk1np; rr:oney out. It is not a popular move in tllis dttv :md are, Fr. Snenker, to be nationnHz:lnp. corporat"lons­ nnd tak:fng over wc]J run inBtftutions. navirl narrett, ]ate Premier' of nr: 1 fotmd tl1nt out only too well jugt last lo'eck. it :fs not just n mntter.

Pr, SpeRker, of n<lt'fonnlizing for the snke of nntionalizat1on, as the Premier of the day wn5 forcecl to jnstify hnck when the cl~cision ... as l'l!lde to buy out rhurchilJ Falls ],r~hrnc'lor rorpcrnt:fon. rontrnclictory stntementa t-.•ere V.1~t we heflnt fit the time, Sir. The Premier Sflirl that on the one hand the ITlust run the Jlrovince 's resources,but on the other hnnd he was saying th:Jt this wns not to he taken as being indicative of a nat1onnl:lzation policy on t'he part of llis rovernr.cmt. t-nw -was he trying to convince, !'r. Speaker?

Vp.s there nny need to convince major corporations throughout this \>•nr1d of the J·:Jnd of treatll'ent thnt nrinco hnd received on this denl? 1fl1y do finnnciE>l experts-or who do fimmci.Jil expcrtP nnd inrlnstr1alist~ throur,hout the t.'(lr]cl believe? ro they hel:leve govcrnrtf!nt rdnh;tcrs ATid PreTll:fers "oho l'\ake statef!'lents sometimes for po1 itic-n.J r~nson,<; or do they believe the ,c;cutt)ebutt within their_­ ~wn corporate circJeB? t-fuut l1nve vr; r1one ''Y rlrivinp.. out Hrinco from Ncwfounilland • 2161

l'ecember 19, 1975 l'T'. Wf'ITJl!; Tape !l33 IB-2 1-fr, Speaker? nesp:!te what the r:entleman, }lr. Smith, says :!n his hook - 1 d:!_s;~gree vr:!.th h:!re - llrinco ,.ras crippled by this deal and may not 't1e revitel :!_zec". Jt vras put out of action, Sir. It rnay be revive~ but :!t is clouhtful r1t the moment. '·1hat happenecl to the great experts, ~·r. Speaker? 311] "ulhollanil went back to the Rank of }font real where the first !lrinco pres:lc"ent, R.C. Carclner,c<UTte from. Harry Macdonnell wPnt back to pra<'tic:lnr, l<m and Harolcl Schneider came to Newfoundland on " unioue project. "ith thel'l., "r.

Speaker, I suggest that a r,reat deal of dreal'l power ~tent as well, the possibil:fty of $100 million limestone <'evelopll'ent on the v!est Coast of this Province and the future possibility of a uran:i_um enrichment plant :l_n Labrac'or, Did these two projects go with Br:lnco, "r. Speaker, and :!f so how many other projects went out the cJoor l•'llen that parti <'ular company l•cas cJriven from onr s~ores? Ho"t.• many other comp;m-!es t>:i ]l stay their hand with re,;pect t0 c'evelopment in liet·-'foundl and becam;e of the treatment of llrinco?

I Rm sure some nf them !'lust be saying, Sir, "~·at Pou]c1 they clo to us after ,,>hat they d:l ,, to a co!'lp<my that f:ln:f.shec1 one of the '''orlcl 's J argest hyclrco development projects ahearl of

schedule an<' within bucl.get? It "'ust also he rel'1emberer1, ''r. Speal:er,thnt at the t:1me Brinco not only had to put together the financing for the project, hut in many respects had to develop a technology ,,>h.ich djd not exist :in the world back in those days. And what about the prospects for the Lo"t.'er r.hurchill development, ¥ r. Speaker? It seems to me that in order for this project tn go ar1ead,and in order for it to be financed in terms of bringinp. the power to the Province, that this government must first find mar}.ets for the power.

Where are the markets? 1'1here are the net" inr1ustries that are going to be set up in ~ ewfoundland as a resuJ t of brinp.:ing Lo'loJer Churchill Power to the Provjnce? l·'h~ t k1nd of sales force cloes this government have to hr:!ng industry into Nevrfoundland? Is there anything else besides the suggestion that an aluminum plant v1ouJd be set up on the South Coast of the Province? If there are other projects in the wind, then 2162

rece~er tn, 1975 t'l', FHI'I'f': Tape B33 let us here .ohol!t.them. I suspect there nre none, ~·r. ~pcaker• What the t<Jnfstcr of t'ines And r.nerr,y must c1o noH, l'r. Spenker, is use as IT'UCh nnle-mnnnship 'rlth respect t(' brin~inf ncv industry into ~le\olfoundland as he rlid in convincing the Prel'lier tn tnl:c the route tlH!Y clicl back in 1974. That is the only hope for the J.o,:er Churchill project at the moment, Sir, al) the other nf mar~.et1> hRvc been exploreil now.According to the minister's they have Hounc'l up back ta3king with Hydro·Quebec.

Hell let them try the route of br:Jng:Jng the power int(l- the Province. We nrc going to necc'l that power partially for homemmer conEJurnption dudnf!' the­ next feH Vf!:trs hut mainly to deve1op Newfoundland. lfy advi~e .,clrninistrntion is to ret out and to sell Newfound] and paver ... to lfi-Ake­ r:url! mlljor inclnstrtfrs armmd the t-'Orlrl are a.vare of the fact that we c<~n hrinp poHer :Into ~lewfounrl1nnil that wiJl keep their fectoriea gc>ir>e,/ 2163

December 19, 1975 Tape no. 834 Page 1 Mr. White. reading an artitle a couple of days ago, Sir, where something like enough industries had moved out of New York City, because of the difficulties there, and there are something like 300,000 workers who have been relocated and some of them have left the industries altogether because those industries had moved out of New York . Are people in New York who want to move to better places aware of what is available for them in Newfoundland should they want to come herel It is okay to listen to the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), Mr.

Speaker, and the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), but I am afraid they do not represent districts in this Province where nineteen out of twenty communities do not even have adequate water. We need new industries in this Province. We need new industries in this Province to provide badly needed revenue and badly needed revenue that will provide services to our people so that we will not have to continue the borrowing programme of the past few years,so we can get a few dollars to put into capital account. I say to this government, get out and do some selling for a change.

Sell Newfoundland and see if you cannot get some industries to come in, even those that may be reluctant to do so even after the treatment that BRINCO received at the hands of the administration. If necessary, Mr. Speaker, let us consider various incentives to bring new industries in. In order to sell properly you must develop a strong sales pitch, and you got to have something in a sales pitch to attract people in. But, Sir, I get the feeling that the guts have gone out of the boys opposite.

As I sat here in the House and listened to them during the past few weeks ~ a speech by the Minister of Mines and Energy last week on a private member~& resolution with respect to the economic prospects for Newfoundland gave us a good indication of what he foresaw in terms of industrial development here. The minister is a capable one, 2164

December 19, 1975 Tape no. 834 Page 2 - !IW Mr. White. Hr. Speaker, and I suggest he change his thinking and devote some time to selling. Creative thinking is what we need back in government jn Newfoundland, Sir, peopla who will roll up their sleeves and exert their energies into enticing developers to came here and to expand our present economic baae. There was some suggestion, Mr. Speaker, in a speech by another han. member that to vote against this resolution. by the Minister of Mines and Energy would give Otkava the impression that we are a House divided against itself. That is utterly ridiculous.

The federal ministers in Ottawa know what politics is all about, and they know how politics is in this Province as well as other provinces and in Ottawa as well. If this administration wants us to back a resolution calling on Ottawa to get involved in the Lower Chur~hill development then let them bring such a resolution before the House. This resolution has noth~g to do with getting support from Ottawa, and we will be glad to support a resolution that would call upon Ottawa to get ~ involved in the Lower Churchill development. As it stands n~, Sir, I am going to vote against this resolution. Thank you. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: fle11r! Hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The bon. member for Naskaupi. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I would li~e, before I get into my particular remarks on tbia motion, to agree with the ban. member who just spoke with the point he made about the need to sell this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and that same improvement should be made in the action taken thus far in moves in that particular direction. I stand to speak on this motion for one.reason, because I want to, and secondly because I do not think I have any choice.

Being the member for Naskaupi,and Gull Island being a part of my particular district, I have interest in this that perhaps other members of this House may not. In any event I .a:ra not_-, qualified to apeak on this in any technical manner,or financial 2165

December 19, 1975 Tape no. 834 Page 3 - 1IIW Mr. Goudie. manner for that matter,but perhaps on the psychological or socb.l effects that the deferment of this particular project has had so far and perhaps speculate a little bit about whateffeet~ the project would have in the area should it continue.

But before I do that I would like to take exception,if I may,to a comment or a phrase that has been used during this particular debate, and I would expect or suspect,probably in other debates before this, and possibly will happen in the future;and that is the phrase used on both sides of the Rouse by m~ers from both sides, 11 Newfo.undland owns Labrador! 1 That gives a very, very scary feeling to people in my district, to people all over Labrador, I think, to think 21sr;

Tape 1335 Mll, GOUDIE: th.1t there are pC'opJe in this Province \Jho fce1 thnt they have to mm Lahrac!or. Lnbrndor is n part of the Prcrvioce, It is not owned by the hhnd portion of the Province. It never will be rn:med~ I do not th:fnk, ''Y the IsJ and portion of the Province, 1\a s f'!atter of fnct'lif ynll o;mt to tnlk nbottt resources, then the roJe!'l rrdpht ju!'lt very "'C1J he reversed. I just "'anted to rM~-e that point clel'!r. sn~-v: nn~. ''E~rnrr: Hear!

Henr! ~'T'. r.npnrE: Tbe ntt:ftune 1 feel heh:tnd th.nt particular phrMe is much t'lore :fmport£mt,or detr:f!'lentaJ in this parUcular cas~,than the phrase :ftaelf. J ~!oulrl suspect that thnt part:l.cuJar att:ftnde may luwe nevelope~ ripht fran day one when fishenren travellecl from the TRJnnd portion of the Prov:lnce to Labrador to reap the harv~st from there, and it hns cont:fnuen r:feht on down through until the present rlny. I lwpe: :md T feel that this ~overmr.ent win reflect R chanr,e ln ::~tt:Jtnrle in tl1nt particular sort of a s:JtuAt:lon. I ~·ou]d Jike to pf"1int out one Clther thJnp.

Mt ¥>e1J, that I mn not speaking about that pnrt:fcu1ar phrnse hecause of T"Y ethnic hackp;rounrl or b£'.cause of any etlm1c tol:enisf"'l, .Sir, ns I Jl'Cntlcmeil, I cnn speak only about p!wrholo.(!icnl or sncin1 aspects of this particular project. No cloubt every mernher Clf thin House ;m~ rnnny peop1 e throughout this Province nre nrn-t m.mre of n recent rnectinp, helrl in Hsppy Valley. The Prern:fer nne' sniPe of ldh cahtnet JT:et nith people from th.<t area. It was an uni!esir:tb1e type of t'leet:fnr, I suppose, fr0111 5orne points,but desirable frnrn otlicrs. l wns n part of th::tt meet:ln~.

About the on1y thing I cnn compare :Jt to t.,'aB <1 Jl1eetinp; 'lo.•h:fch took p1ace in 196fl when the f~mou!'l r.hristtriHl flay Rnnouncement cB1"1f'. out by t!le nn~1 tnetl'ber for TPU J i nr;n te (''r, Sn.'ll h!oorl) • nut anyvmy I ':-d 1 J not rehnsh that rd.tuati.on. f.t thifl point in time in the tlaslrnup:f cH strict in I.nbraCor tlere is rl:fs<1ppnintT"ent, nnrer, frustration Hith the government for ]I;:Jv!nr. rcferreC tldr. pnrticul ar pro_1ect. I think tl1e c>X!)lanat:l.ons put 2167

'1e.cem~er lSI, 1975 1',...· COTTI1IE: Tape 835 Ill-2 forth hAve he)ped tn some degree to relieve, or not perhllpS relieve but nt least c1eA.T the a:lr,:lf you •,!ilJ ,for lnck l".f 11 hctter term,nbout 1•hy this particular project is not going aheac at this point :In time. In ncldHfon to th1s particular deferment there :l.s fa:lrly st:ronr evicence I th:!nk that the /lmerlcan Air J"orce ~1111 be pull :l.ng out of Goose Bay­ Pappy Valley,Phich nclc1s to its insecurity.

There are problems l•r:!th Labraclor Linerboard on the Island portion of the Province l!h:lch adcls to the insecurity of the llren hecause of the harvesting operat:lons going on in Goose Bay-·Ilappy ~.'alley at the motrlent. Bus:l.ness is affected by it and every !"ember of the puhlic has heen affectec1 hy the defeTtrlent. But I think the deferment has one - at least one, perhaps tr11.my others - hnt one J'Ositi"e affect that I feel.

That is with the defe=ent having taken place th:ls shoulcl now gi.ve government more time for - I ••as roinp.: to use the teTtrl better pJ anninp - perhaps additional planning 1vouJrl he a more su:itah]e term to use. Obviously there has heen a Jac~ of exchanr.e of :Information hoth coming from our part of the Province into thE' p.overnment and v:l.ce versa. Perhaps •rith the E'.stahJ ishment of a rep:iona] r;overnment center. in our area :It might help to :l.mprove these particulRr. communications and this deferment may give us more time to >mrl< on that type of thing.

It would add ,;t:'\'1-d.lity to a particularly \mstab]e situation at the moment in terms of people's feel:lngs, :In terms of feeli.n.gs ahout the future of our area. I thinl' it is very important that this government acrl l,•hatever jt can to get rir of that feeling of instability. It would also, I think, help alleviate the landlord-tenant type of concept Hhich comes 011t of this sort of a situat :1 on. 1Je are tltere to stay in Labrador. I do not think there are any plans for peorle leaving. The government, I hope,will show recognition·of that type of principle. Mr.

Speaker, I agree to a point 1-rith the hon. member for Twi]] tng11te (~'r. SmaJ lwood), T"nfortunately he is not here today to hear "'Y remarl'S, but hts fin a] statement before ] eaving for h~s hollday, I thought~was Pell taken. I no not knmc H I would go so far as to 2168

nccember 19, 1975 J,<p. r.flenn:: Tape 835 agree that resources should be developed within Labrador IB-3 only. 1 fee;1 tt-at T.nbr;,dor h:ta a Jot to offer to this Province, Obviously it has, and nD pnrts of the Province should benefit from :ft,hut not nt the e,.;pense of the people or benef1ts which ehouJd come to Labrador. This no rlouht has heen said during the Jnst number of yeRrs hy other trembers. I BTTl sure "t<1hat I nrn wyin[': OOt.' :ffi not new. The Bide effects of development in T~hrador, of course, is pnpuJI'lt1on.

There ls the C:ClOcept right now or perhaps the thought :Jn some pcopJc'r, heads that benefits nre not brouBht into the area hccause there' is no popul.<ltion. You are tnU::Jnr: nbout 35,000 to 40,000 penpJe in nn nrea of 124,00~ or 128,000 square miles. Okay,~ are un11erpopulnter1 for the spnce ·pc h:tve.

But with ;:m :fncret1se in industry­ in tnbrnilor the services of every ~ElY life thnt other peopJe enjoy rould he brou~ht in and juatly so hrought in, not given es appears to h.1.VC hecn r1one SO fnr in the past, All sorts of s:fcle effects - hirlways, touri;,T:'I 1 rir,ht on rovn the l:lne. 'fhe hon. ~eml,er for t.nPo:fle Ofr. Neary) and the r,entlemnn •·1hn just f1n~~her1 spe<1kinp, n fe~.r mnrr.P..nts ago, J thour,ht 1'1.11(1e strong rnints a hoot seJl in,{! this pnrtj_culnr Prov:lnce,t.'hat H h:~fl to offer. llt,vlnnsJv it llrt!l <1 Jnt tn offer.

A ncecl for n strrmr,,Tm:lfier stand f~ ohviouR,T tb1nl:, \.1\Jether a corrmittee tc1np- sclecterl tn go tn 11ttnHt:' :IR the ""Y tn clo it, nA the '!'1emher for T.aPoile e•r. Neary) surrcRted, T ro not l·nn". 1 rn not FA.nt to ~-valuate thn.t particular tldnp,. ~Itt the ic'lca of se) ling, I think, is a good one.

The f'hnrch:fJ] rn11s ~evelopT".eOt ho'ls l1een c1assifieC' in the past a~> n sell-out. rnss!hJv so, I do not knovr, Perhaps one 1-J'ay tn, lf 1nrlccrl th.,t ls ~·'h.'1t f.t t.-'na, perhaps one vray to overcome thnt \c'ou]tl f,e f'nr the prnvlncinl cnvernment to renegotinte the rates hrdnp, recdvc( 1 lrm:~ the 0uehec f:overnrroent at this particular pC'int :l.n tiMe. I Tf'Pli7.e, ~'r. f'pi!nl.er, then~ iR a r:IRl· :involved over the next yenr perin1l,ns tvo hon.

T!'e:r11hers pointcrl cmt~in apendinp: $55 r.~lll:fon and not hRvinp, the co~:~nitment of the ferlenl cnvernr.tent as to \·~\at th£':lr 1nvo1ucMent in this p11rtjcuJar project iA p:oinp to be. 2169

1ecember 19 , 1°75 'l'. c:nunrE: 1ape 1135 IB-4 i s o risk ohv i C'Ius1 y . !lut ,..hat a re t'he altemat~ves?

ThermaJ or some other sourc e or type cof p01o1er T :<uppose. 1 support this motion l'at we go ahead and spen(l the $5 5 l"illion over t he next yea t: an(l that r~e cont nue wi th "~<"ha tever me ans "'e have availnhl e to ensure t ha t t he fed eral gov.ernment plays i ts pc> rt. in t his 'ho le devcJ opl"ent~ recause i t :l.t< i rrp<n:-tent not onl y t<' hi s Provinc e hut to t he whol e natio n a:n(! to t he future energy reoui rement s of t his nation . ! think it is vitall y , vital y il"po rtant in all these particular areas.

If we do not ~evelop we are going to regress , not pro gress,a nd that I do not think leavP.s us any choice at <Ill. SOME HClN . 1-'r.!-'lWrs: near! Hear! 'l' . SPP.IIKEF: 'J'he hon. member for :Saie Verte-Hhite Bay (Mr. P.ideout) • ~rr. TliTIEOUT: ~· r. Speaker, ·having carefully checked through the, read through the motion trat the hen. l!;entleman has on the Order Paper here, and having listened to the clebate thus far, I have a few remarks, brief re~~rks that I would like to make on this motion. 2170

December 19, 1975 Tape No. 836 NH- 1 ~. ~IDEOUT: A number of bon. gentlemen in this debate so far have been talking about ownership. I do not think that is the issue that fit~ into this particular motion. To me ownership is not the particular issue at this point. That was settled in this bon. House long before my time so I am not too interested in that as an issue. The thing we have to consider is that for the future development of this Province it is essential that the Lower Churchill, or I feel it is essential, that the Lower be developed.

It is unfortunate,bowever that things they have over the past few months, and that the government cannot fit to proceed as they were telling us only a few months ago they be proceeding, full tilt ahead Yith this particul~r development at time. That is one thing that sort of irks me with respect to this_ motion. All along, all during the SWimer and indeed into the Fall we all under the impression that this thing was going to jo iull tilt Now I know there are probl~ involved with 1t and be referred to continuously as being negative and criticizing and of thing, I know there are problems involved.

But that particular irks me to no end, that there was full tilt ahead and now obviously there is not. I also want to make some mention with regard to our particular on this resolution. It has been suggested in this House that we have a stand. Now to me that does not make sense. We certainly a stand. We are for~and unequivocally for,the development of the Lower Churchill. SOPE HON. l-®~ERS: Hear! Hear! ~~. FIDR0UT: That is our stand. To go through this motion as it right now,though,is a horse of a different colour. It is another altogether.

To say that we agree, wholeheartedly agree, with the way this administration has handled the development of the Lower Churchill this point is something else altogether. We do not agree with the way development has been handled and that is why some of us are spaaking are in this particular resolution. It is not with respect to being 2171

Tape No. 836 N~ - 2 AN HON. !-1EHBER: Are you for it. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes,we are for it, unequivocally for the develop~nt of the Lower Churchill but the motion asks us to pat the government on the back for the steps they have taken in the development of that project so far and we cannot do that. AN RON. ~IENBER: \fuat is wrong with it? NR. RIDEOUT: Because we do not agree with what you have done so far. It is as simple as that. We are for the development of the Lov1er Churchill but we do not agree with the steps taken by this administration so far. And I think we ha,ve pointed them out.

The other gentlemen from this side have pointed them out in the debate. It has also been - l"P... W. CARTER: ?tr. Speaker, will the bon. member permit a question I wou.deT? r·fJl.. RIDE01JT: Yes. HR. W. CARTF.R: I wonder would the hon. member then tell the House, he says he is for developing the Lower Churchill, will he tell the House just exactly how he and his colleagues would go about developing it? MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, you know that is certainly not for me to say, how we would go about developing the Lower Churchill. HR. ROWE: You are the government. MR.

RIDEOUT: Yes,you are the government over there. ~'R. ROWE: And do not ever forget it. l-fJl.. RIDEOUT: All we are saying is that yes,we agree ~Y'ith the development of the Lower Churchill as soon as possible and you know things of that nat\)re hut ask me how I would go about developing the tower Churchill. MR. NEARY: You have no authority. ]1!1'{. ROWE: You do not have a Department of Energy. ~'R. RIDEOtlT: I am not .the Minister of Mines and Energy. I cannot a~wer that for you. I do not have a department of experts to tell me how to go about dpi.ng it. That is not the point.

We are .for the development of the Lower Churchill. We have said that. But what I am saying is that 2172

nccembcr 19, 1975 Tape No. 836 NM- 3 ~fR. RinEOtrr: !lOme hon. gentlemen in this House keep saying that we do not have n stand. But we do have a stand. It is a clear stand,that we are for the development of the Lower Churchill. Anything else I sugr,est is just, to barr~ a phrase from other gentlemPn, ie jUst clrat.>in~ a red hcrrinn across the issue. Rut we disagree with the -way the covernment has handled the development of that project to this point.

N~· to sugfleSt that votinr, a~ain~t this motion at this particular time would indicate to Ottawa that thir: House is divided, that this Province is divided ngnin~t itself, I think is utter nonsense, If the government wishes they can bring in n resolution asking the unaminity of the House to proceed to ntt~{a, We would be all for that, and we certainly would look at it fnvournbly nt that time. But to suggest that beinr, critical of this particular motion at this time, suggests to Ottawa that we are divided against ourselves to me makes no sense whatsoever. ~.

NEAT!.Y: Go back to your kindergorten my son. t-m_. ntnEOtn': The hon. gentleman down in the corner is flapping agaln, Sir. 1'-1!!. Rnt.lE: Super lip. •m. RIOEOUT: Super lip. So these are just a few remarks that I want tO· mttl~e in this pnrticular debate. t•R. SPf-.AKF:TI (OR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. 11R. nrm:mrr: And I was gll!d to have you back here! HR. NEARY: Academic fool~ MR. SPEAKER (DR. CnLLINS): Order, please: }fP. ROWF.: 'Hr. Speaker, is it parlinmentary, on a point of order, }!r. Speaker, for a member to call another member a fool? A~ !JON. HEt~BER: No, nn ncnde111ic, ~w.

NEAnY: No, not a fool, Sir, an academic now. lffi, SPEAKER (DP.. COLLINS): On that point of order, I am afraid the Chiir· tJn!; pny!np, attentJ on to the bon. member for Hindsor-Buchans who 1R to speak and did not hear any other remark~ The han. member for !Hndsor-Buchans. 2173

December 19, 1975 Tape No. 836 NM- 4 MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, it is not 'DIY intention to add any great new revelat;!.ons to this debate, and I have considered very much as to whether I would even speak in the debate. However, one has got to answer to one's own conscience, and I think that whether or not the Lower Churchill is developed, by tbe way the Minister of Mines has indicated, is probably 2174

December 19, 1975, tffi. FL!GfiT: Tape 837 as important a thing as will ever come before this House. I felt that I awed it to my own conscience~if to nobody else, to say how I feel about it. RH- 1 The first thing I would like to do is to assure the member from (Mr. Goudie) that I am in complete agreement in.

I had the privilege of living in Gull Pond in Happy Valley- Goes~_ for six months approximately three years ago and I can that in that six - that YaS the period that the people of Happy Valley­ Goose Bay were in - the rumor was going around that the Americans would pullinF, out and it was the looking to the development of. the Lower Churo:h~ that they were placing a fair amount of their future hopes.

I can >mag:tne the letdown when it becomes apparent that the Lower Churchill will be deferred and it does not take a great imagination to think that not be done at all. l~ fear, Sir, - I am not aware of the technical I do not pretend to be aware of the financial. However, I have to qu~sti,m this and the bon. Minister of Fisheries will probably get how 1 would go about developing the Lower Churchill. what I ~11 do, Sir, 1 will tell you haw I would not go about the Lower Churchill. The minister haa indicated that, number one, we have to have a customer for that power.

Quebec is not at this time a customer and there is no guarantee that QueheC will ever be a customer and there is no guarantee in the minister's statement that he to have Quebec as a customer. So we spend approximately $1.25 billion in building a tunnel and power lines, Now already I have learned enough in this House to know that the financial situation of this Province is stretched to the limit. We can only handle the commitments ve have. project that a little farther, Hr.

Speaker, let us assume that we follow the lines recommended by the Minister of tlines, proceed at full speed the huilding of a tunnel, build the power lines down from the Upper Ch'ur<:hi to the Gulf and we commit this Province for another $1.5 billion. assume that the Lower Churchill development is not possible to develop, Province cannot find the financial means to develop that Lower Churchill, 2175

December 19, 1975. MR. FLIGHT: Tape 837 RH - 2 the customer is not there. Would then that tunnel - and I a~ain, you know, it is academic, everybody would like to see a tunnel to Labrador. I do not want to be nailed on that point - but would then, this Province then, you know, would they be in a position to accept that kind of a debt t .o meet the interest and principal payments on that type of debt, would that in effect be the type of financial ruin that we have heard talked so much about in this House if in event that the power never comes from the Lower Churchill? Now, I think that is a legitimate question, Mr.

Speaker. So I would like, as I said, I would like to point this out to the House that this is where my concern lies. I think this is where the concern of a great many people in Ne,~foundland lies, Now I would like to refer to one thing, I do not intend to go very deeply into it, and that is the unforgettable Lloyds River diversion, I have heard it mentioned in this hon. House a great deal since I have come in.

The first time I walked into the Chambers and met the various members for the first time, when they said, ."Ah, what is your name?" "It is Graham Flight." "Oh, yes, you are the Lloyds River diversion." I p,uess that is the only thing I must have had going for me. But, Mr.

Speaker, I assure you this, that sitting listening to the minister's statement, the original statement, it became very obvious to me that the government was well aware of the decision not indeed to develop the Lower Churchill, their inability to develop the Lower Churchill because around February of last year there was a mad rush to divert Lloyds River. It was obvious to the Minister of Energy at the time and to the government that they needed and would need extra energy.

I think that their decision had been made• Th~y were aware - and again we talk about misleading or not bringing out the full facts, I think the people who were defending the diversion, who were recommending and pursuing the diversion of Lloyds River had come clean with the people they would have made a simple statement that l~e have to divert Lloyds River or other rivers in the Province because we cannot and we do not know when we will be able to bring the power from Churchill Falls or the Lower Churchill into Newfoundland. 2176

~ecember 19, 1975 Tape 838 PK- 1 Jfr. Flight: That in itself is enough, Mr. Speaker, for me to justify my voting against this resolution. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. FLIG!IT: We have heard a lot about coming clean, coming cl~an with the people. Now I intend to refer later in this bon. Hous~ to the Lloyds River diversion, not in the light of what it vould or would­ not mean to the Lower Churchill development or the Gull leland d~ve!Lo;,ment' or the lack of power that we will have in the next year or two. MR. J. LUNDRIGAN: please? May I ask the bon. gentleman a question now, I'll. FLIGHT: Yes, Sir. Go right ahead.

MR. LUNDRIGAN: 1 did not get the han. member's point that he made_- immediately before when he indicated that that was sufficient reason for him to vote against the resolution. I am interested in that remark if he could repeat it? MR. FLIG!IT: YPs, Sir, yes. ,I will answer the bon. member from Gra-nd_- Falls (Hr. Lundrigan). There was quite a controversy at the time,ae he is probably well aware,. there were some people defending the division of Lloyda River, some people were saying it should not be diverted under any conditions_ or any cost.

Now the people who were sayinfl,let us divert Lloyds River were saying it on the basis that w~ need the Lloyds River power while we are waiting !or the Lower Churchill to come on stream. And I submit to you, Sir, that was a red herring because they knew that the Lower Churchill power would not be coming on stream in the foreseeable future, and I say it only in the context of that they did not come out clear with the people. Does that answer it, Mr. Speaker? MR. LUNDRIGAN: I just have another very simple question.

I wonder would he agree or would it be in agreement with - in view of the fact that the environmentai work which is being done there in the area als~ involve the Exploits Basin,r believe he called it, where is a tremendous fishing potential as the han. member is aware, which will be developed into something very positive. But does he 2177

December 19, 1975 Tape 838 PK - 2 Mr. Lundrigan; feel it is in the best interest of the whole a~ea to look at the total environment and the kinds 6f potential that we have there in the whole Exploits system and the Basin which results from the Exploits River itself? MR. SPEAKER (tOLLINS) Order, please: I do not wish in any way to interEere with the House's 'dshes or debates ,certainly, but we do have to maintain reasonable relevance.

I think the relevance can be quite broad as we are dealing with energy matters but I do not think the debate should be totally directed away from what is stated in the motion towards other issues. HR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, in answer to - I will make one observation on the minister's statement.

That at the time that the Lloyds River was being debated as to whether or not it would have been - it was proper to divert it, I would like to ' have had people in this Province asking the kind of questions that the minister just asked me, because we based our whole argument on the non-diversion against the diversion on the type of questions that you just asked, Sir. MR. LUNDRIGAN: In other words you did not have sufficient information. MR. FLIGHT: We did not have any information.

And I doubt if it is possible to bring enough information before this House to justify the division of the Lloyds River for any reason. The only other relevant thing about the Lloyds River diversion in context with this, Mr." Speaker, is,I think, the justified end of everything is the cost of everything, and the people of Newfoundland were being told that in order to divert Lloyds River it would save the Newfoundland taxpayers $28 million, that is what they were saying it would cost to divert Lloyds River.

They are now telling the people of Newfoundland that it will cost $1.5 billion to develop the Lower Churchill. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, it would not if - you know, this whole debate centers around energy, and what is happening to our energy in Newfoundland. and the fact is that the people who are using our power today in Newfoundland,maybe the whole system should be revaluated, you know, We are subsidizing every, every, 2178

December 19, 1975 Tape 838 PK- 3 Mr. Flight: and I say every commerical user of electricity in this Province today, every one. It was documented that every horsepowe+, kilowatt or vOlt or whatever you want to take, that would have been generated by the Lloyds River Diversion would have been used by Price (Nfld.) in the next five years and the people of Newfoundland were beinS told that it is going to cost you $28 million. Why should it cost­ people of Newfoundland $28 million, if indeed it was going to be US~d by a company that is here for no other reason than to make a profit; HR.

HICKHAN: Would the bon. gentleman agree to the diversion of-- the Lloyds River if .Price had paid for the development? MR. FLIGHT: No, Sir, I would not have agreed to it under any circumstances. I disagree with the camouflague that was being u1ed by the people \lho were defending the diversion of the Lloyds "River.-_ 2179

December 19, 1975 1-ffi. FLIGHT: Tape no. 839 So, Pr. Speaker, I realize that I have not a<1cled any great - shed ne•' light on the sttuation. I had no intent:lon of debating it from a technical or a financial point of vieH. I would like to submit to this House that the people of Newfoundland, who lvant this thinp; a:lred, their greatest concern is l<hether or not this government is going to commit them to something that they indeed will not be able to stancl up uncler.

If we go aheacl . ancl <1o as the min is ter asks, and if :1 n tHo or three years time we find that as a result of doing that this Province cannot maintain its level of social services 1 or indeed any other level of services because we have found ourselves loaderl with the burden of builcling that tunnel and building those pm•er lines, then I suspect that it will be an unhappy day for this government or any other government that brings that lot to the people of Newfoundland. That is all I have to say, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: You are against it? l"'l'. FLIGHT: I atn against j t. ~'P. LUNDPIGAN: Hhat are you for? Yl>.

FLIGHT : ~'ay I hold the r.ha:l r, Str? I will tell the hon. member what I am for. I am for the minister coming into this Pouse and say:lng that we lvant to commit $1.5 billion for the building of that tunnel. 1•1e have a commitment from Quebec-Hydro, on our terms,that we can sell that power to Quebec-Hydro or we have a commitment that lvhen that power is broug:ht into that Island that ·~ can develop the po•~r, bring it into the Island, because we have commitments from industrials who will come here and use that electricity. I got no desire at all to bring all the power - }W.

LlmDP.Ir.AN: ~~at about the taxes? ''R. F'LICHT: Hell that is what I am for. You asked me what I was for. 1-'T'. LUNnP.IGAN: l>le arp only committing a ] ittle bit of money. ~·r. ELICH'!': ~1.5 million? A Httle bit of money for a Province ]:Ike Newfoun<1land? .)'F. LllNTWIGAN: ~1.5 bill:l on - 2180

December 19, 1975 Tape no. 839 Page MR. FLIGHT. $1.25 billion,escalation $1.5 billion. So I am going to keep going since the bon. ~er- I am for, let ae eay very clearly, Hr. Speaker, I 2 - ""' am for the develo-pment of the Lower Churchill. I am for the building of a tunnel and the necessary power lines. However • I am not for that happening while there is any question as to the doubt, if there is any doubt that the lo'Wel!

Churchill power will­ indeed ever flow through that tunnel or over the lines being builtt I am not for that. 1 am for the government of the day going out and making arrangements with Hydro-Quebec or with Quebec, the type_, of arrangements that are in the better interests of this Province else bring before this House the means that if the power frout the­ Lower Churchill is brought to Newfoundland that indeed there will be industrt, there will be markets here in the Province to use that power.

If they cannot make that commitment to the people of Newfoundland, t~en I should suggest that they go very slowly on the $1.5 billion that it W'ill. take to build the tunnel and build the lines. 'Thnnk you, 1'r, Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The bon. member for Bay of Islands~ MR. IIOODRDW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make just a remarks about the motion. I want to say vhat I said in my maiden speech. I have every confidence in the government of this Province 1 that is in the members whom I see sitting here befora me. I have confidenc;e in the Minister of Mines and Energy.

I have extreme confidence in him, and he really would be a fool, he would be a fool, in fact, if he were not doing this without first knowing what he was doing, I am sure all this baa been debated, it baa talked over by thia party, and my glory be to God, in fact, he would­ not lead, in fact, Newfoundland down the drain. That, in fact, that would be acting as a traitor, and I know, in fact, the goverrunel>t~ of Newfoundland is not going to do that. So, therefore, as I said,­ co have a few brief remarks on this, I admit that I have not studied. 2181

December 19, 1975 Tape no. 839 Page 3 - mw Mr. Woodrow. cOIIIPletely the whole history of the Lower Churchill Falls, but I am basing TllY argument on authority. l am taking, for example, I 8111 taking for granted that the people 011 this side of the Ho!l&e of A,fsembly knaw what they are doing, and I am going to give my ,unqualified support to thi& motion. 2182

December 19, 1975. Tape 840 Rll - 1 • fiOHE BON. MEMBERS: Hear: Hear! MR. WOODROW: This week in fact I would like to say I was suffering a heavy cold. The waters of the Lo~r Churchill were metaphysically runnin~ in my head whilst the water from my head was running physicallY of my nose. So really at least I had been thinking about it. I hope-_ and I might say I pray that everybody, I think everybody,aince this is of so much importance to Newfoundland, l would like, in fact, to joi1{­ in what the member from LaPoile said; I think we should have a united front. HR. NEARY: lmar, hear! HR.

WOODROW: Imagine if we could go to Ottawa with a united front on thing. I think we would have much better support from the Government of Canada than by going with a House Bplit. So I wish it every succesa, I mny not be in the Tiouse to vote on it but I guarantee you I will be here in spirit. SOME liON, MEHBERS: Hear, hear! 11R, SPF.AKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. 'HR. F. ROWE: Hr.

Speaker, the bon. member who just spoke has raised,once again, this whole point of a divided Rouse on th~ particular motion and vhat effect it would have on any negotiations with Hydro-Quebec or with the Federal Government. No~, Sir, let me put it plain and straight to han. members of this House. This motion has nothing Uhatsoever to do with­ ne~otiations with the Federal Government nor Hydro-Quebec or anything else. And voting against this motion, this double~barrelled motion will not in any way the need for the development of the Lower Churchill, in any way whatsoever.

It simply will not jeopardize it because this motion, Sir, put in one phrase is 'pat me on the back', Sir. That is what the bon. ~'inister of Finance is asking this House to do, to have all members pat the Hinister of Hines and Energy and the Rovernment on the back for the steps that they have taken since they acquired the shares of BRINCO and the unter ri~hta in I.abrador, pat them on the back for the action that they have taken since acquisition and to pat them on the back and give them approval for ~hat they are likely to do over the next year or in the future. MR. SDIMJNS: Never! 2183

December 19, 1975 . Tape 840 RR- 2 Mit. ROWE: Sir, we have no idea in this world what is going to take place and what is going to be done with re11pect to the Lower Churchill in the i111111ediate future or in the far future. I got a m.nnb.er of points that I want to lllak.e on that later on. MR. SU!MONS: Do not feel bad! The minister does not know either! MR. ROWE: We just simply do·not know. I would submit, Sir, that my colleague is right, that the government nor the minister really knows what is going to happen to this whole project.

So, Sir, we are not in any way, and let me repeat this, jeopardizing any future negotiations or weakening our case in going to Ottawa for financial assistance whether it be by way of loan or by way of a grant. We are not weakening the government's case whatsoever. MR. NEARY: You cannot have i.t both ways. MR. ROWE: Let me put it -Mr.

Speaker, if the government wants the full support of this House to go to Ottawa, to raise loans or to get a grant or to get financial assistance of any kind for the purpose of developing the hydro resources of this Province, be it the Lower Churchill project, the Gull Island project, be it the Naskaupi River, be it any other river in Labrador or any other river in this Province,on the Island portion of our Province, if this government wants strength and wants support to go to Ottawa to get financial assistance for that purpose, then let this government, Sir, bring that motion before this House and I am sure they will get the unqualified support of every single member on this side of this House.

Now, Sir, let me just put that one to rest right away. MR. HICKMAN: Will the han. member yield for a question? MR. ROWE: No, Hr. Speaker, I will not yield for a question. I have more to say than I can fit in in forty-five minutes.on this particular project. MR. HICKMAN: Do you promise no more phone calls to Ottawa? MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker; I have no idea in the world what the bon. minister is talking about. 2184

Decemher 19 • 1~75, Tape 840 RH - 3 HR. HICKlUill: 'Steve' spilled the beans. MR. ROWE: Well, if the bon. Minister of Justice ~ants to consult with the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) let him do so. Sir. Now, - .JtR. SIMMONS: But beware of the facts be gets, MR. ROWE~ Now, Sir, that is that on that particular point, Now, Sir, -T listened to the Minister of }lines and Energy with a great deal of interest. The Hinister of Mines and Energy, Sir, has to be complicated- MR. SI>ft!ONS: He is that too. He is complicated. ~m.. ROWE: He is complicated, }lr. Speaker, but he has to be compliee.nted Rnd I co~nd him for the exeellent job that he did 2185

December 1~, 1975 MT' , F, ~nt·!F: Tape 841 IB-1 tn d:! sclosing the weaknesses that \<'ere contained in the agreement on the Ppper rhurchill. He made an excellent resume of the types of clauses and the types of conceRsions that we should attempt to avoid at this particular point in time. Now, Sir, we have to remember tJoat tld s WI".S p;iven in h:!nclsi~ht. '!'he hon. }'inister of ~'ines and Fnergy, Sir, spoke w:!.th heavily tinted gop:gJes and he did not at all refer to any of the advantar.es and good aspects contained in the original 'lgreement for the l'pper Churchi.ll.

Nor, Sir, dii! the hon. ~'in:! ster of l'ines and F.nergy refer to the p;reat polit:!cal and historical factors that had to be cons:!i!ered in our relationsh:l .p with Quebec. This was the basic problem, S:lr, the political and historical factors and the complications beca.use of the fact that Quebec had us completely surrounded and had us hy the whatnots on this particular :Issue. It is as simple as that. '·1e were surrounded by ()uebec and there was no other way of getting the power out, not to mention the technological difficulties that had to be overcoMe for this project.

Rut, Sir, the m:!nister clid point out some things that were a part of the original agreement that I feel should not be a part of any new agreement if Brinco had to have carried on. They did a gooi! joh and that hut, like J saic1, it ~:as spoken Pith tintec1 glasses. Now, S:!r, the Leac1er of the nppos:!t:lon gave an excellent c1isclosure as Hell of the weaknesses and the strengths of the original agreement on the llpper rhurchi11. These were supportec1 \<.-fth docmnentation,w:! th facts and fig-ures.

Sir, he aJ so made a thorough analysis of the advantages ann the clif'ailva.ntages of the govemment 's ac<1uj s:lt:!on of the llpper rhurchill anc1 the other hydro rights in Labrador. ~ir, he was very reveaJine in the c1ocumentation that he gave in support of the weaknessel" and disadvantages of that acquisition. Rut, Sir, the hon. Leader of the Opposition also revealed with astouncJjng accnracy the bung] ing of the present ac'fm:!n:! stration ~dth respect to the vay in "hich they rave handled the clevelopment of the Lower rhurchi.ll • He siMply took the government to task for 2186

nec_ernber 19, 1975 vr. F. rnm-: Tape 841 snying one thin!!- before the rreflt dRy of ~eptenher 16 and sayin~ a CCliTtpJeteJy ~iffercnt tP:fnr nfter Septef'!iber 16, after the eJection IU-2 Wlfi held. f,ir, he r'l:i~ v.:hnt was expected of any responsible Leader of the Opposit5on. Pc raised many, many quest:fons t.'hich the 1liniater of 1':ines nnd f,ner£Y has yet to nnswer before we make a decision as to 'l.tiether ClT not t-re fu]Jy support or reject the motion. But what we have hearn so far, Sir, - nnd let me mnke tPia abunr'lantly clear - '-''C r'o not ~upp0rt this motion nt the present t;fl'le, ff!~.

NEARY: You ere all Tories. t'T'. r. r0m~: For anyhody, S:lr, for anybody HJr.e the meT'lher for Ln?oHe (Pr, Neary) 1who is lipping off dmm there RCnfn, Sir, - "1' ~:-EJ. n_y: The Torie,q are aJJ on this 15 ir3e. t.tr. F. 1'()\--!f:: - for hin to suggest that we hnve not taken a stand :ts heyoncl cof",prehA.nEion. Sir.

Hhnt is the purpose of rlehate in this t~ouse if :ft i.s pnt to ret fncts, Cir, out information, and then you stnnd And you -vote for or a~ninst a resolution or a motion. ~l'here :Is it in the pnrliamentnry clo~trine of any soc:lety where you hEve to get up and sny, I M' for this or I am aBainst th:f.s and then You 7Jve arJl.llliiCnts and then you listen to arguments? It is an absolute exercise :in stupi0ity, ~ir, for n person to get up and say,you have to make up your mind before hearing nll the facts. The Leader of the nopOFtition unreaervenJy sa:fC that he vns against the first pnrt of this motion and he 2187

I · necember 19, 1975 Tape No. 842 NY - 1 ""R • ROl-lE: said he '"as 'lUite prepared to listen to argument before makinp; up his mind. On the second part of the resolution and some of my collea!>:ues have already made up their minds. MR. NEARY: It is not a Model Parliament, you know. }IR, ROWE: The hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) should well know, Sir. Nm•, Sir, the member for Twillinp,ate (Mr. Smallwood), spoke <Vith a p.reat deal of passion and sincerity and a strong conviction, and, of course, he has a great deal of exper:!_ence to support his feelings and his stand.

And, Sir, I think his stand is quite understandable. You do not slave, Sir, you do not slave for seventeen yc.ars and put top;ether the manpmver and the. finances and the markets and the technolop:y in creating one of the greatest hydro-electric developments in the ~vorld, private enterprise risld.np, $1 h:! llion and see it wiped out before the whole project is really completed. This is why the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) took the stand that he took. Sir, B!l."rNCn \ms the child of the former Premier.

It v1as his creation and obviously any attempt to harm the child \vould bring on the "'rath of the present member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). Sir, but this is a very complicated issue before us today, this development of the Lower Churchill. And let me say, Sir, I am not foolish enough and partisan enough to suggest the ~linister of Hines and Energy ("r. C.ro,;;hte) fg all <Vrong, nor can he be all right. The same thing holds for the government. And neither, Sir, can the former Premier nor the memher for Tw:!llj_ngate (~!r. Smallwood) be all ,,,rong or all right.

Sir, "'e have to look at this, take the pros anc1 take the cons and vote accordingly. Nm•T, Sir, let me make it abundantly clear that. we support the principle of oHnership of our h~rdro resources in this Province. And let me also make it abundantly clear and without any qualification whatsoever that He do support the concept of the development of the Gull Island site, Lower CPurchi