Manitoba Hansard — 22 November 2005 (Sitting 17B, 38th Legislature, 4th Session)

38-4-17b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVII No. 17B – 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, November 22, 2005

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P.

MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P.

STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. Vacant F ort Whyte P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

581 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, November 22, 2005 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 16–The Corporations Amendment Act Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), that Bill 16, The Corporations Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les corporations, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, this bill modernizes The Corporations Act, bringing it into harmony with federal legislation. As well, it clarifies directors' duties of due diligence, removes some restrictions on company financing transactions and harmonizes with federal requirements the proportion of a corporation's board of directors who must be residents of Canada. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 17–The Securities Amendment Act Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, on a roll here, Bill 17, The Securities Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les valeurs mobilières, be now read a first time. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Finance, seconded by the honourable Attorney General (Mr. Mackintosh), that Bill 17, The Securities Amendment Act, be now read a first time. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, this proposed legislation is designed to strengthen and improve investor rights and to enhance access to capital markets across Canada. It has been done in consultation with securities industry stakeholders, as well as other ministers across the country. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Coverage of Insulin Pumps Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons fo r this petition and a good one: Insulin pumps cost over $6,500. The cost of diabetes to the Manitoba government in 2005 will be approximately $214.4 million. Each day 16 Manitobans are diagnosed with this disease compared to the national average of 11 new cases daily.

Good blood sugar control reduces or eliminates kidney failure by 50 percent, blindness by 76 percent, nerve damage by 60 percent, cardiac disease by 35 percent and even amputations. Diabetes is an epidemic in our province and will become an unprecedented drain on our struggling health care system if we do not take action now. The benefit of having an insulin pump is it allows the person living with this life-altering disease to obtain good sugar control and become much healthier, complication-free individuals. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier (Mr.

Doer) of Manitoba to consider covering the cost of insulin pumps that are prescribed by an endocrinologist or medical doctor under the Manitoba Health Insurance Plan. Mr. Speaker, this is signed by Doug Breckman, M. Homenick, Alan Novak and many, many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read there are deemed to be received by the House. Crocus Investment Fund Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

582 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Government was made aware of serious problems involving the Crocus Fund back in 2001. As a direct result of the government ignoring the red flags back in 2001, over 33 000 Crocus investors lost over $60 million. Manitoba's provincial auditor stated "We believe the department was aware of the red flags at Crocus and failed to follow up on those in a timely way." The relationship between some union leaders, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) and the NDP seem to be the primary reason as for why the government ignored the red flags. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider the need to seek clarification on why the government did not act on fixing the Crocus Fund back in 2001. Signed by Atish Maniar, Veerbala Maniar, John Kowal and many, many others. * (13:35) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the annual reports of Victim Services and LERA, 2004. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from the Maples Collegiate Institute 23 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mrs. Dawn Wilson. This school is located in th e constituen cy of the honourable Member for The Maples (Mr. Aglugub). ORAL QUESTIONS Maples Surgical Centre MRI Scans Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, under this Doer NDP government, wait times for diagnostic tests have skyrocketed.

Manitobans do not have timely access to health care services and they are losing confidence in this NDP government's health care system. The Maples Surgical Centre has recently purchased an MRI and will soon be able to offer MRI scans to the public. My question to the Premier: Is he going to turn his back on patients and deny them access to these MRI scans by changing Manitoba's provincial regulations? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I believe the College of Physicians and Surgeons has not yet approved the MRI. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, under the Canada Health Act, the purchase of diagnostic tests from private clinics is not prohibited. We on this side of the House support the Canada Health Act. Patients should not be denied a service that is not prohibited under the Canada Health Act and a service that is currently available in four other provinces in Canada. Right now, Manitobans can, and some have to, Mr. Speaker, travel to Alberta, B.C., Nova Scotia or Québec and access this service. I would ask this Premier will he be denying Manitobans access to choice right here at home. Mr. Doer: People do have choice here in Manitoba.

They now can choose between two patient-dedicated MRIs that were in existence when we came into office. We are now at six MRIs and we do have to choose. About a year ago, we chose to put public investments into Beausejour. Members opposite chose to put it into some B.C. company. We are now looking at putting more money into the Boundary Trails hospital, Mr. Speaker. I would like to know, the member opp osite, does he want all the money spent in Winnipeg, or does he want some invested outside of the Perimeter Highway. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, that is a non- answer to a very serious question.

I will ask the Premier again because every Manitoban knows that, under this NDP government, their plan simply is health care delayed is health care denied. We on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, believe that you should be putting patients first, not about ideology, but how do we put patients first to ensure that they have timely access to health care right here in the province of Manitoba. I would ask this Premier again is he going to deny Manitobans access to the Maples MRI by changing regulations in The Manitoba Health Services Insurance Act, thereby denying Manitobans

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 583 choice that is already available, Mr. Speaker, to those Manitobans in four other provinces across Canada. Is he going to do that? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we chose as a government to stop paying $1.2 million in fines from the national government and put that into reducing the waiting lists all across Manitoba. Members opposite chose ideology and got fined for it. Mr. Speaker, that is th e kind of advice we got from– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Two MRIs, six MRIs, three times more.

We are choosing now to fund, use taxpayers' money, not just in the city of Winnipeg as the member opposite has argued for under the surgical program, we put money in Beausejour and they actually opposed it. We are putting money into Boundary Trails, they are now opposing it, Mr. Speaker. I would like the members opposite to stop representing British Columbia and start representing rural Manitoba. * (13:40) Maples Surgical Centre MRI Scans Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Well, Mr. Speaker, we are representing patients in Manitoba. That is who we are representing. Mr.

Speaker, it is not prohibited under the Canada Health acts nor The Manitoba Health Services Insurance Act fo r patients to purchase diagnostic procedures from private clinics, despite what this Minister of Health said. Under

section 217 of the provincial regulations it says and I quote. "The following services are not insured services: Diagnostic examination or treat- ment by means of non-radiation emitting medical imaging devices, including ultrasound, unless provided in a hospital as an inpatient or outpatient service." Mr. Speaker, a private clinic is not a hospital and therefore patients should be allowed to purchase these services. Is the Minister of Health planning to change the regulations in Manitoba to outlaw this practice? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): First of all, Mr. Speaker, as our Premier (Mr.

Doer) has responded, the MRI is not yet licensed for operation and so all of these questions are assuming a situation that is not yet the case. Mr. Speaker, a private clinic in British Columbia just announced that they would go into business for an enrolment fee of $1,200 and an annual fee just for primary care, not for anything advanced, not for specific scans like MRI, for example, $2,300 a year in order to just get primary care in a private clinic. We want Manitobans to have access to primary care, secondary care, tertiary car e through a public system that is efficient, effective and universally accessible.

Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, surely this government is not waiting for a licence to come through to take a stand on this issue. There is obviously no plan for this government. It is pathetic. Mr. Speaker, in a Canada Health act annual report 2003-2004, it states and I quote, "MRI and CT services are considered to be insured health services when they are medically necessary for the purpose of maintaining health, preventing disease or diagnosing or treating an injury, illness or disability and are provided in a hospital or a facility providing hospital care." Mr.

Speaker, clearly this act, too, states it is not prohibited for patients to purchase MRI scans from a private clinic in Manitoba. Is the Minister of Health planning to go against the Canada Health Act by changing regulations to make this illegal? Yes or no, simple question. Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, a private MRI can be used for Workers Comp, for MPI, for the Armed Forces, for people under federal ju risdiction. They are all excluded as peace person s not covered under the public insurance system of our country under the Canada Health Act.

I assume that the private operators of the clinic that seems to be such a favourite over there, Mr. Speaker, have a business case for bringing forward their MRI, and I presume that business case involves Workers Comp, MPI, the RCMP, Armed Forces, private insurance companies who wish to have MRIs done on whatever for what ever reason under their private insurance. I assume they are good enough businesspeople that they ha ve not taken a leap of faith and have no expectation that somehow other businesses will not make theirs a profitable investment. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, we have taken a stand on this issue.

I wonder what the members opposite

584 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 are waiting for, a seco nd viewpoint opinion on whether or not this is popular in the public. I tell you it is unacceptable what these guys are doing. Mr. Speaker, currently Québec, Nova Scotia, Alberta and B.C. offer private MRI scans to patients in those provinces. We do not believe that Manitoba patients should be denied a service that is available in other provinces. It is as simple as that. Is this government planning to deny Manitobans the right to choose how they access care for diagnostic procedures in this province?

Why do they continue to put politics ahead of patients? * (13:45) Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, let me tell the member opposite what our policy is. Our policy is that any private operator can come into Manitoba and can offer a service that we, the government and people of Manitoba, have to pay for whether it is needed or not, whether it is medically necessary or not.

They are proposing open season on our health care system so that you could bring in a private hospital, you could bring in a private MRI and simply say to Manitobans, "Come and take advantage of it and the public will pay for it regardless of the cost." We are better stewards of the public dollar than that, Mr. Speaker, and of the public sector health care system in this country that is, obviously, an enormous economic advantage to us.

We would not have the kind of industrial structure that we have in this country without medicare, and we would not have the health status in this country, the neonatal mortality and morbidity rates, the life expectancy rates that are superior to the model they want us to adopt from the United States. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Tuxedo, with a new question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, we believe in putting patients first and giving them choice to timely access to care in our province.

We fear that the NDP will continue to put ideology before patient care by changing the regulations. Mr. Speaker, we would oppose these changes. Where does the government stand on this issue? Are they for or against allowing Manitoba patients the same access to choice in services that are offered in other provinces across our country? Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, what the member opposite is for is for-profit. That is what the member is for. What the member is for is for a system such as that offered by the clinic in British Columbia that wants to charge people $2,300 a y ear just for primary care.

That is what the member opposite is for. What the member opposite is for is for anybody who is a private entrepreneur to come in, set up shop in Manitoba and then tell the people of Manitoba that they have to pay for anything that is done in that clinic whether it is needed or not, whether it is rational or not. We are supposed to simply fork out the dollars. Mr. Speaker, under their plan, there would not be an MRI in Brandon, there would not be one in Boundary Trails. There would not be a 64-slice CT going into Brandon. There would not be six new additional CTs in rural Manitoba. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, what we are for is patient access to care in this province. What they are for is for their own ideology at the expense of patient care in this province. Shame on them. Unfortunately, under the NDP government, wait times have skyrocketed, and Manitobans are not receiving the care that this government promised and has a responsibility to deliver. This NDP government continues to put politics before patients. Why is this government considering denying Manitobans the same rights that patients have in four other provinces across Canada? Mr. Sale: Let us talk about wait times, Mr. Speaker.

When we formed government, nine weeks for radiation therapy. Today 1.4 weeks. When we formed government, people were not getting cardiac surgery when they needed it. We not only meet the Canadian benchmarks, we beat the Canadian benchmarks on cardiac care. When they were in government, the MRI wait list, 25 weeks. We have reduced the waiting time for MRIs by over one-third, and this year it will come down further. Mr. Speaker, we challenged WRHA to do 400 more hips and knees under our system with efficient, productive approaches to surgery. They are doing 700 surgeries this year. Let us talk about wait times, Mr.

Speaker. Let us talk about the reductions that have happened in, for example, stress tests for cardiac function: cut in half in the last 3 months. We have an incredibly good record, and we are going to make it better, including access to 30 000 MRI scans this year, up from 6400.

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 585 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member for Tuxedo has the floor. * (13:50) Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I find it unacceptable that this Minister of Health thinks that 16 weeks to wait for MRI procedures in this province is a good thing. We will not be happy until that wait list is eliminated and that is what we are looking for. We believe that outlawing private clinics from delivering these services in Manitoba is not in the best interest of patients.

It is time for this NDP government to set aside their ideology and stand up for the best interests of patients in Manitoba. Four other provinces across Canada allow patients to choose where they access diagnostic procedures. This is a serious issue in Manitoba and Manitobans deserve answers. Where does this government stand on this issue? Mr. Sale: Well, I am interested, Mr. Speaker, that the member opposite now apparently is a doctor as well as a lawyer. The Canadian Medical Association and the wait-list coalition say that six to eight weeks wait for an MRI is perfectly appropriate.

Apparently she wants no wait list, no taxes and no government. WTO Negotiations Manitoba Position Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Agriculture met with the key commodity groups, yet this minister has failed to table for this House Manitoba's position on the upcoming negotiations in Hong Kong. Mr. Speaker, can the minister table today in this House Manitoba's position on this important issue? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, the WTO negotiations are a long process and our industry has been involved in it for some time.

Our industry has been represented in these discussions from the beginning of the WTO discussions. I did meet with the industry yesterday. We had a very good discussion, and what the Manitoba industries want is to ensure that other countries that are over- subsidizing reduce their subsidies. They want increased market access, but they also want to ensure that specific groups that have the ability to have supply management and things like the Canadian Wheat Board are protected. Mr. Eichler: Mr.

Speaker, with producers having gone through frost, drought, BSE, declining grain prices, our producers cannot withstand any more setbacks. Many changes, either positive or negative, could come from the upcoming WTO negotiations which will impact our producers. Can the minister assure our producers that this government will negotiate timely transitions for any changes, Mr. Speaker? Ms. Wowchuk: These are very important negoti- ations for our producers, and that is why we have worked with the producers, kept them involved in the process.

They have been able to put their position on the table, but this is an issue that has to be addressed all across Canada. It is not just a Manitoba position. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that I will speak loudly for the producers on their issues that they raise with us. In Manitoba we strongly recognize the importance of supply management. We strongly recognize the role that the Canadian Wheat Board plays. We also recognize that subsidies in other countries are far too high and that those have to be reduced to level the playing field. * (13:55) Mr. Eichler: Mr.

Speaker, this minister needs to be prepared for the WTO talks. Can the Minister of Agriculture table the government's WTO proposal and the plans that she has in place to assist producers with the impact of any proposals changed? Ms. Wowchuk: The member opposite does not seem to recognize that Manitoba does not negotiate the WTO. We are a part of a team– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Wowchuk: I guess the members opposite do not recognize what the concept of a team is. We are going to the WTO talks as part of the Canadian team, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Speaker: Order. Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We work with our farm industry groups, members fully aware that we met with them yesterday to put the Manitoba position together. Manitoba's producers are very concerned about the high level of domestic support that other countries have. They are concerned about market access, and the other very important key issue

586 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 is the export subsidies that other countries are providing. The U.S. farm bill is a concern, but I can tell you that I will work with Manitoba producers and Canadian producers. WTO Negotiations Manitoba Position Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): The minister wants to use the analogy of a team. I would assume that she sees herself as either the coach or the leader of what position Manitoba producers are going to be represented by at national discussions.

She is leaving in a couple of days to provide information to the national discussion so that our position can be formulated for the WTO. Our producers do not know what this minister is going to say and she does not seem prepared to share it wi th those who were not at her private advisory table. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): I can assure the member that the industry is well aware of the positions that we have for Manitoba.

We will listen to the industry and we have listened to the industry, and we will work in their best interests to ensure that there is an increased market to access for our producers, that tariffs are reduced and that we reduce export subsidies that many people use to distort markets. I can assure you, Mr. Sp eaker, that we know full well the importance of supply management and the Canadian Wheat Board for our producers. I wonder where members opposite are when it comes to Canadian Wheat Board. Are they prepared to support that? Are they prepared to support supply management? My position is clear.

I– [interjection] a better deal for better access for our producers. Mr. Cummings: Getting information from this minister is becoming a very painful process. She is now starting to allude to situations that she is prepared to discuss on behalf of Manitoba producers. Will she put any comments on the record that can be of comfort to producers out there about the position that she will take with her fellow ministers, or is she just going to go in there and say me too? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that members opposite are aware that this is a long process. Canada has put a position out.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:00) Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There has been a framework that has been put out that has been published that the industry has been working on. The framework calls for substant ial reductions in trade- distorting supports and that is supported by our industry. The framework calls for a reduction in tariffs and that is certainly one that we support our industry on.

I can tell you that the framework also continues to call for reviews and clarifications of where supports can fit in under the agreement, but, certainly, the elimination of export subsidies is– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, again, in the interest of pulling information out of this minister, she is talking about what we believe are some legitimate international issues, but she is not talking about what she is doing to defend possible implications right here at home.

I give her one more chance to put some information on the record that would be of some comfort to the producers in this province who may be impacted by what she does or does not say at the national level. Ms. Wowchuk: I can assure the member that he does not have to worry about the industry getting information from me. I have had discussions with the industry. The industry is concerned about the level of subsidy in the United States, Mr. Speaker, and we will address those issues. The industry is concerned that Canada may be called to give up more than other countries will have to give up. I can tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that I will be at that meeting and I will be speaking for Manitoba and Canadian producers to ensure that we do not get short-changed and give up more while other countries continue to give their high level of subsidies. Those subsidies in other countries have to be reduced, and tariffs have to be reduced for our producers as well as they export into other countries. Foster Families Availability Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg released its barometer on poverty yesterday, and it shows 600 more kids in care than last year.

The report also indicated there are not enough foster families to care for these children.

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 587 What is this minister doing to ensure that there are enough foster families to provide quality care for these children in Manitoba? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): One of the first things we did, Mr. Speaker, was restore funding to the Manitoba Foster Family Network that members had cut in its entirety during '93-94. We believe in the foster parents of Manitoba. We have also increased the rates that we pay three times since 1999. Again, they cut, we restored.

We are working with the Foster Family Network and foster parents for the care of the children. Mrs. Taillieu: Well, Mr. Speaker, the motto of this government is spend more, get less. Each foster family is underfunded by at least $3,000. The number of kids in care has constantly risen from 5440 in 2000-2001 to over 6000 this year. Children are bounced around from family to family until they reach 18, and then they are left to fend for themselves.

What support will this failing NDP government provide to children in care and to foster families to alleviate this constant movement and instability of the children in its care? What is the minister doing to provide stability in the lives of these children in Manitoba? Ms. Melnick: The first thing we did was take the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry recommendations off the shelf, blew the dust off and started to implement that.

We are the only jurisdiction in the world that has legislation around the devolution of child welfare that includes culturally appropriate care, that includes kinship care, and this we have done in the best interests of all the children of Manitoba. Child and Family Service Agencies Resources Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, there are not enough culturally appropriate foster homes in this province. We hear constantly of the shortage of workers within Child and Family Services. We hear constant concerns over the failing system and fears that harm will befall some of these children. Mr.

Speaker, CFS staff are doing their best under conditions of low morale and chaotic transitions to this new system. What is this minister doing to ensure adequate resources to the CFS staff to carry out their duties and provide supports for families and children in crisis? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Now, Mr. Speaker, we know that this is all a veil of the non-support of the devolution of child welfare, and shame on that member.

We are working with Winnipeg Child and Family Services and the newly created authorities so that we have culturally appropriate care, culturally appropriate workers, and we are focussing on the care of the children throughout Manitoba, including the North which members opposite have never been to, and how dare she speak negatively about the foster parents in this province particularly around culturally appropriate care. She should not speak on subjects that she does not understand. Manitoba Hydro Government Management Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, every time we turn around the government is making a grab for funds from Manitoba Hydro. When the NDP government could not balance the books, the Premier (Mr. Doer) grabbed several hundred million dollars to balance the books. When the Minister of Energy needed a political staffperson, he grabbed money from Manitoba Hydro. This fall, the government is proposing a market-distorting slush fund to subsidize natural gas purchases using dollars from hydro-electric power. A good case, Mr.

Speaker, can be made that the NDP's clutch-and-grab approach to Manitoba Hydro is the reason the utility is now asking for a 5 percent rate hike. I ask the government when will the government end the practice of grabbing money from Manitoba Hydro for political purposes, for political staff and for political slush funds. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): Mr. Speaker, I would like to correct all of the inaccuracies in the member's question. First off, Manitoba Hydro is not getting a 5 percent rate increase.

In fact, the PUB has rejected an increase, and the matter of rates will be discussed in the fall. Secondly, the member wants us to go to the market price for natural gas, which is up more than 40 percent. We think low-income individuals who are being supported by the federal Liberal govern- ment and by our government in joint programs ought to be sheltered from the cost of dramatic, skyrocketing natural gas prices, Mr. Speaker. So, in addition to having the lowest electricity rates in North America, we are also, for the next couple of years, going to level out the rate increases for natural

588 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 gas as a result of the hedging account and the account balance, as I explained over five hours yesterday to members opposite in committee. Natural Gas Pricing Reviews Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, the NDP government is determined to micromanage Manitoba Hydro with continually changing ad hockery and regulations which vary from one day to the next. This means that Manitoba Hydro has difficulty in long-term planning.

The present NDP government is also determined to use cross- subsidization to grab money from Manitoba Hydro whichever way it can and to use the funds to put in political staff or political slush funds. My question is to the Minister of Energy (Mr. Chomiak). You know, we agree with him that the rate increases in winter may be problematic for one, but we do not agree with the continually changing landscape.

Will the Minister of Energy support the Liberal proposal to move the four times a year that there would be a review of natural gas prices to May 1, July 1, September 1 and October 15 so that, in the future, there would not be winter rate increases in natural gas? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Well, I would refer the member to the PUB decision where, in 2001, they said that the PUB would adjust the gas rates on the basis of the market change every quarter.

The proposal the member opposite is proposing would mean that we had a 40 percent rate increase on November 1 as opposed to having the two increases that are slated. The bottom line is there is a rate freeze in hydro, as indicated by the member from Energy. Mr. Speaker, there is a rate freeze in hydro and under our bill there will be a rate freeze on February 1 for gas users who have already paid an increase in the rates that was applied by the PUB in November. You have a choice, rate freeze or rate increase. You have chosen rate increase. * (14:10) Natural Gas Rate-Shock Protection Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Oh, he is good at this. Mr. Speaker, he is good at distorting, provide a transition as opposed to distorting the marketplace. Using Manitoba Hydro to interfere with the market- place is dishonest. Mr. Speaker, I agree w ith former NDP Premier Ed Schreyer, who said that this is not in the long- term best interest of Manitoba Hydro and the consumers. That is what his former idol is saying. What we want is to provide targeted assistance through general revenues. We care more for our seniors than this government does.

Why will you not provide targeted assistance directly through general revenues? That is the answer. Stop distorting economic realities. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Well, Mr. Speaker, the bill is written in short-term years because it has to deal with a short-term smoothing out of gas prices. The first objective is to have the hedging practices that were put in place a year ago not necessitate any amount of money from export sales coming in to have this rate freeze. Mr. Speaker, I would point out that the rates in hydro, both in terms of electricity, are a lot lower than they are in other pr ovinces.

For example, in Ontario, where Mr. Madan is going to go, he will be paying a lot higher hydro-electric rates in the future. Aboriginal Housing Government Initiatives Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, in light of the recently announced letter of understanding involving the federal government, the town of Grand Rapids, the Grand Rapids First Nation and the provincial government, can the minister please inform the House as to the details on this very positive pilot project? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to inform the House that yesterday we signed an historic agreement with the community of Grand Rapids and the federal minister. This is a new housing model for Aboriginal people. We are doing away with the bickerfest and coming forward with a co-operative model that will be driven by the community. The federal government will do their part on reserve, we will do our part off reserve.

I would like to thank the leadership of Grand Rapids First Nation, Chief Ovide Mercredi, Mayor Buck of Grand Rapids, as well as the Honourable Joe Fontana who said he wants this to be the model of Aboriginal housing across Canada.

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 589 Economic Growth Tax Competitiveness Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, competitiveness is the single most important issue facing Manitoba and Manitoba businesses. We have said this time and time again in this Legislature, and it appears that the only person who is not listening is the Minister of Finance. Chamber of Commerce President Dave Angus revealed that taxes need to be lowered and some eliminated and that Manitoba has a long way to go in this area.

I ask the Minister of Finance why has he not made Manitoba a more tax-competitive province. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Well, Mr. Speaker, an independent 2004 KPMG study showed Winnipeg ranked second in western Canada, ahead of Calgary, on business cost competitiveness, something never accomplished when members opposite were in government. In my next answer to his next scripted question, I will explain to him how we got there. Mr. Hawranik: I suppose that explains, Mr. Speaker, why we are last in economic growth. We are below the national average in the last five years in this country.

The third annual business leaders indexing, they indicated that business leaders have lost confidence. This bodes poorly for this province and the economy and our job growth. The business leaders gave this NDP a failing grade for their economic development efforts, and they said that the province's business climate is not competitive with the rest of Canada. I ask the Minister of Finance why has he failed to make Manitoba competitive with the rest of Canada. Mr. Selinger: Just to put it in perspective, Mr.

Speaker, the Conference Board of Canada indicated that Manitoba will be th e fourth fastest-growing province with real GDP growth of 2.9 percent in '05, completely contradicting the misinformation the member continually puts on the record. Now how do we get there? We reduced business taxes for small business by 50 percent since '99. You did nothing while you were in office. We doubled the band of income covered under the small business rate from $200,000 to $400,000, a 100 percent increase. We reduced corporate taxes for the first time since the Second World War. That includes the 11 years you were in office.

We have moved on taxes in ways you never imagined when you were in power. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: Members' Statements. The honourable Member for Lakeside. Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): It is not a members' statement. Mr. Speaker: Does nobody have a members' statement? The honourable Member for Pembina. Children's Camp International Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I rise to tell all honourable members about the event that will be taking place next year in the great constituency of Pembina. Mr.

Ray Wieler, the president of an organization called Children's Camp International is organizing an attempt to harvest 160 acres of wheat in under 12 minutes using 90 combines. By doing this he hopes to accomplish two things. First, he wants to set a world record, beating the previous record of 15 minutes 43 seconds set in Alberta in 1998, but, more importantly, he wants to raise enough money to send 100 000 of the poorest kids in southern India to Bible camps run out of the churches in that country. There the kids will have fun, make friends and receive three hot meals a day.

This event will take place August 5, 2006. Mr. Wheeler is hoping that enough people will sponsor a combine to cover the costs so that all of the proceeds from the event can go directly to the kids. Soon he will also be looking for about 200 volunteers. The winter wheat to be harvested has already been seeded and is up, thanks to donations. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask all members of this House to join me in lending this effort their support and wishing Mr. Wheeler and the organization the best of luck in the most worthy endeavour. Thank you. Chytalnia Prosvita Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise to recognize the celebration this past October 29 of the 100th anniversary of Chytalnia Prosvita in Winnipeg. This association is dedicated to the betterment and enlightenment of all Ukrainians through the

590 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 preservation of their language, culture and history, specifically through the medium of reading and books. Chytalnia Prosvita was originally formed in the 19th century in Ukraine by Ukrainian intellectuals determined to bring education and culture to the general public. Through the use of reading halls, this goal of enlightenment began to be realized. In Winnipeg, the organization started at a time when the first large influx of Uk rainian immigrants were beginning their new lives in Canada.

This reality made the organization that much more important by building Ukrainian institutions that could both preserve the language and history of the past and help pass it along to future generations. To that end, in 1918, the Chytalnia Ridna Shkola was established to help transmit this cultural heritage. With low enrolment fees and strong support from the Ukrainian community at large, a consistent student body of around 80 students was maintained at its original location where the school thrived for over 50 years.

In the 1970s it moved to Andrew Mynarski School to accommodate its increasing enrolment, where it remains today. Another important service provided for many years by the reading associ ation was a large lending library that was composed of many notable and rare books. At a time when libraries were not as common as they are now, the Chyt alnia Prosvita library provided an important service to members of the Ukrainian community. Mr. Speaker, I ask that all members of this House join me in congratulating Chytalnia Prosvita on their 100th anniversary celebration, commending all those involved for their e fforts.

Their work in the promotion of the Ukrainian language, culture and history has made a lasting impact on the Ukrainian community and the entire Winnipeg community in general. * (14:20) Turtle River School Division Labour Dispute Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): I wish to use my opportunity to make a statement to hopefully speak on the record on behalf of some very vulnerable young people who are constituents of mine and happen to be students attending, or not attending, Turtle River School Division. I know the Minister of Education (Mr.

Bjornson) is probably equally as uncomfortable as I would be finding ourselves between two feuding parties in a labour dispute. I want to clearly put it on the record in the Chamber that we have some very vulnerable young people who need aides because of their health condition in the classroom, and they are unable to attend school because those aides currently are not available because of a labour shortage, or a labour stoppage, not a labour shortage.

It has also come to my attention today, and that is the other reason why I wish to rise, that there are students who, in fact, may not be able to find their way to school through appropriate transportation during this labour stoppage. That to me says that we as leaders in this province need to be aware of the situation, first of all, and seriously consider what actions can be taken on behalf of these students, not to take sides in the labour dispute, but to take sides with these students so that they can get their education and they can move forward.

I know that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of parents out there who are very concerned about these students, as well as being concerned about the larger student population. I think it bears some significant attention within this Chamber and that is my reason for rising today. I hope the Minister of Education will carefully think about the words that I have put on the record, and perhaps he and I will be able to discuss a route to deal with it in the near future. Magnus Eliason Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to Magnus Eliason, a friend and business partner of mine, a long-time Winnipeg city councillor and a great New Democrat. In his 1975 book Political Warriors , Lloyd Stinson, former leader of the CCF for 10 years and MLA for Osborne, described Magnus as follows, and I quote, "He was a reliable committee man, but his real forte was public speaking and the debating forum of the council chamber was where he excelled.

His rich, resonant voice co uld be heard better than any other member of council and being a teacher of public speaking, Magnus knew how to prepare and deliver a speech. He did not ramble or digress from the subject. He always spoke with force and precision. Handicapped by very poor eyesight, Magnus made up for this deficiency by his native intelligence and phenomenal memory. Magnus Eliason came to City Council as a man of broad experience, having been in business in British Columbia and a political organizer and candidate in

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 591 three provinces. When he won in 1968, it was his fourteenth try for public office." On City Council, Magnus was a conciliator. He could work with people of all political stripes to solve problems and move forward. He was well liked by both former Premier Gary Filmon and former Mayor Bill Norrie, both of w h o m s e r v e d o n C i t y Council with Magnus. I met Magnus in 1971. He had recently bought Stinson Insurance Agency from former CCF Leader Lloyd Stinson.

Eliason Insurance Agency was a family affair with Kay Eliason, Magnus's wife of 30 years, and brother Frank and niece, Margaret Sigurdson, all working in the office. I became a customer, and then, in 1978, I bought the insurance agency from Magnus. Magnus was an excellent businessperson. He gave great service to his customers. He often stayed open late at night to help someone out. He paid the same special attention to his constituents as their city councillor. Throughout his life, Magnus was a hardworking man. No grass grew under his feet. He was active in the Manitoba League of Persons with Disabilities.

He worked tirelessly on behalf of the Icelandic community and in 2003, received the Order of the Falcon, Iceland's highest honour, for his efforts. Mr. Speaker, my sincere condolences go out to his brother, Frank, his niece, Margaret Sigurdson, and her family, his niece Wanda and Yinka Opanubi and their family, his long-time friend Stephen Hjalmarsson and Magnus's special friend Betty Laing and all members of his extended family. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Grandparents' Rights Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak to an issue that was presented earlier today.

Today, I was pleased to see grandparents from throughout Manitoba come to listen to the debate on Bill 201, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Grandparent Access). I would like to thank the members and friends of the Grand Society and th e Brandon grandparents support group. They took the time to come today anticipating a meaningful debate on this bill, but, Mr. Speaker, there was no real deba te on this legislation. In order for this to be a re al debate there needs to be mutual co-operation and openness from both sides of the House.

I was disappointed members opposite adjourned debate without having the courtesy to voice any opinion on this legislation. I would like to challenge members opposite to engage in an active and open debate concerning Bill 201, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act. We have not heard an alternative from this government, no amendments, nothing, Mr. Speaker. The grandparents that were here today and all grandparents across Manitoba have the right to learn why the government is not addressing their concerns. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the members opposite what harm is there in asking that th e court must consider the love, affection and similar ties that exist between the child and the grandparent. We have to trust in the discretion of the courts to judge what is in the best interest of the child. We are only asking that the significant relationship between grandparents and grandchildren are given fair consideration. Grandparents seeking access to their grandchildren deserve that right. MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): In accordance with Rule 36(1), I move, seconded by the Member for Ste.

Rose (Mr. Cummings), THAT the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), on behalf of all Manitobans and the agricultural community, will participate in the discussions with the federal government and provincial agricultural ministers this week to determine a negotiating position to the upcoming World Trade Organization talks. Members of the Legislature need to provide advice to the Minister of Agriculture prior to the meeting with her provincial and federal counterparts leading up to the important WTO round of negotiations. Mr.

Speaker: Before recognizing the honourable Member for Lakeside, I be lieve I should remind all members that under Rule 36(2), the mover of a motion on a Matter of Urgent Public Importance and one member from the other parties in the House is allowed not more than 10 minutes to explain the urgency of debating the matter immediately. As stated in Beauchesne Citation 390, urgency in this context means the urgency of immediate debate, not of the subject matter of the motion. In their remarks, members should focus exclusively on

592 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 whether or not there is urgency of debate and whether or not the ordinary opportunities for debate will enable the House to consider the matter early enough to ensure that the public interest will not suffer. Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, I rise this afternoon to seek leave of the House to set aside the regular business of the Assembly to deal with a matter that is of urgent public importance. There are two conditions that must be satisfied for this matter to proceed.

The first requirement was to file a motion with the Speaker's office at least 90 minutes prior to the Routine Proceedings. I believe that requirement has been satisfied. The second condition is the matter of an urgent nature. Given that the Minister of Agriculture engaged in consultations with Manitoba's commodity groups last evening, and given the minister's agricultural presentation to Manitoba's position regarding the upcoming meetings of the WTO to her provincial and federal counterparts on Thursday, November 24, it is imperative that this issue be debated today.

Additionally, due to the plight of our farmers with drought for the past year, flooding from the recent growing seas on, BSE, frost, declining grain prices, Manitoba producers have faced significant hardship. Producers need to be assured they have ample time as well as adequate finances to make any adjustments to their operations as may be affected by the WTO. Mr. Speaker, we want to ensure that the minister is fully informed and prepared to discuss the concerns of Manitoba producers at the upcoming federal and provincial ministers' meeting, as well as the WTO.

We also want to ensure that she is prepared to negotiate a timely transition in light of the anticipated changes, whether they are positive or negative for Manitoba's producers. * (14:30) Furthermore, there is no other opportunity to debate this matter during the session. The WTO negotiations have not been raised in debate on legislation that is set before this House nor have there been statements, vote s or motions put forward on this topic otherwise. As such, proceeding with a MUPI today is the best forum to debate this vital issue. To conclude, Mr. Speaker, the WTO talks are an urgent matter.

Debating this critical issue today is timely because of the minister's travel and meeting plans with her counterparts on the WTO and the WTO itself. Debating this issue is in the best interests of Manitobans. The public is concerned about the impacts of global trade agreements, and, specifically, agricultural producers who provide the backbone of our province's economy have concerns about the impacts of the WTO on farming operations. Mr. Speaker, I argue in favour of proceeding with this MUPI today. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, the responsibility, of course, is on the mover, the presenter of the MUPI to demonstrate and present some evidence that the public interest would be harmed if the matter was not taken into consideration on this particular day. We know that the WTO discussions have been ongoing actually for years, and, indeed, the first time we understand that the opposition raised this issue was yesterday. So I think it belies their ability to put evidence forward in any event when they suggest that it has to be dealt with on this particular day. Mr.

Speaker, members opp osite know that there is development underway to bring a substantive resolution into this Chamber after full and careful consultations with industry groups, making sure that we do not just have some general discussion in this House but that we have an end product by way of a resolution backed by the Legislative Assembly, hopefully, by unanimous consent. Members opposite will be engaged in the development of that resolution. That resolution is expected to be introduced certainly in this period of time that we are meeting before Christmas. So I leave it to you, Mr.

Speaker, but I just did not hear any evidence that it was necessary in the public interest that on this particular day there be that kind of matter dealt with. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I would ask for leave, if I can address this particular issue. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate being able to address this particular motion as brought forward by my colleague from Lakeside. Mr. Speaker, the issue, in itself I believe does merit the Chamber setting aside a couple of hours

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 593 today in order to allow for members of this Chamber to express their thoughts on what is a very critical round of discussions that are upcoming and leading ultimately over to Asia with the World Trade Organization. Over the last year, year and a half, we have seen so many outside factors hit our agricultural community, whether it was BSE and the impact that it had on the cattle industry or whether it was the amount of rain that we received in some areas of the province. In other areas, Mr. Speaker, there has been a lot of a drought type of conditions.

There are issues regarding drainage, and, you know, when the World Trade Organization meets there are going to be a lot of discussions about subsidies. We have markets like our dairy market wher e the whole supply management issue I believe the government is going to have to address, and hearing what the government has to say and their approach dealing with that is of critical importance to our Chamber. Additionally, we have to be very concerned in terms of the open market for our grains, Mr. Speaker.

Governments with huge treasuries that go far beyond what we have, have huge capabilities to provide tremendous subsidies that ultimately have a negative impact on our producers. In particular, I am thinking of those that produce wheat or Canola. Those other countries have been very successful at distorting the marketplace, and it because of their size and the amount of money that they are bringing into it. I truly do think that having a discussion in this area would be beneficial. I look to the Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh).

When we have MUPIs that are introduced, and we have seen now a number of them since the last provincial election, what I have noticed is when the government believes that there is merit to having the discussion and the legislative agenda will allow for it, they will allow for leave and ease the Speaker to allow the Speaker to make a ruling that would allow for that debate to occur. What I would suggest is that if the government sees the merit in terms of the agricultural community, and I look to the Minister of Agriculture, the Deputy Premier (Ms.

Wowchuk) of our province, and ask her to acknowledge the need and respect the contributions that all members might be able to have towards this debate. If there was no legislative agenda, or if the government feels that they have the time to be able to hear the debate, I would really recommend that they allow for it through you, Mr. Speaker. Again, I thank you for the opportunity to speak. Mr. Speaker: I thank the honourable members for their advice to the Chair on whether the motion proposed by the honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler) should be debated today.

The notice required by Rule 36(1) was provided. Under our rules and practices, the subject matter requiring urgent consideration must be so pressing that the public interest will suffer if the matter is not given the immediate attention. There must also be no other reasonable opportunities to raise the matter. I do not doubt that this matter is one that is of serious concern to some members in this House. I have listened very carefully to the arguments put forward. However, I was not persuaded that the ordinary business of the House should be set aside to deal with this issue today.

Although, undoubtedly, this is a very serious issue that the member has brought forward, I do not believe that the public interest will be harmed if the business of the House is not set aside to debate the motion today. Additionally, I would like to note that there are other avenues for members to raise this issue including questions in Question Period and raising the item– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. –including questions in Question Period and raising the item under Grievances.

Therefore, with the greatest of respect, I must rule that this matter does not meet the criteria set by our rules and precedents, and I rule the motion out of order as a Matter of Urgent Public Importance. GRIEVANCES Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Emerson on a grievance? Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker– Mr. Speaker: On a grievance? On a grievance. Mr. Penner: The ruling of the Speaker and also the attitude of the minister an d the House Leader on the government side is something that really concerns us.

The reason we are concerned is because this Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) is going to leave tomorrow for consultations with the other provincial ministers on this very matter.

594 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 So there is no opportunity for us, Mr. Speaker, to ask this government any questions on this very matter before a very significant meeting is going to happen in Canada. That position that those ministers will formulate will be the essence of what the Canadian premiers will take to Hong Kong. That is where the meeting is going to occur that is going to have a very dramatic and significant impact on not only the agricultural, but the general economics of this province.

That this House leader will argue that this is not significant and we will have much time is absolutely ridiculous. * (14:40) I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that this government has no idea what they are dealing with. This House leader knows not what he speaks of. He raises the issue of having dealt with this matter for the last number of years, and that is true. They started with a go-around and continued till today they are in Geneva. Next week they will be in Hong Kong. That is a significant indication of how important this round of meetings will be with the Premier (Mr.

Doer) of this province that will advise the federal minister and the chief negotiator of Canada as to what positions are important to Canada. Basically, this NDP government has today indicated clearly to Manitobans that it does not put much significance into the meeting of the premiers in the next few days. I find it absolutely astounding that this minister would not want to hear from all members of the Legislature today before she attends that meeting what the views are of her colleagues on her side of the House, what her opposition colleagues in this Legislature would like to bring to the debate.

You know, we have agriculture that has been not only attacked by weather over the last two years, it has been attacked by tariffication. It has been attacked by huge subsidies, and the United States, up to $90 billion they are allowed to expend under the current agreement. Look at what Europe is spending per capita on supporting their agricultural communities, and this minister sits there and argues that she does not need to hear any more as to why or what position she should take to the ministers' meeting that she is going to be attending at the end of this week.

I find it absolutely amazing that this minister today could not answer when asked very directly in this House what position she was taking to the ministerial meeting going on. She could not answer the question. You know why, Mr. Speaker? You know why she could not answer? Because she, only yesterday, had her first meeting with the commodity groups. I understand that the poultry producers were there. The dairy producers were there. I believe the pork producers were there. The cattle producers and the Keystone Ag Producers were at this meeting and the general farm organization.

Now what advice did she get from them? Whatever advice they gave her, she simply has not been able to articulate before this Legislature what that meant to her and what kind of importance she places on that before she stood in the House today and said she did not agree that there was any urgency to the debate. Well, Mr. Speaker, when was it more urgent than it is today? We have farmers that were told at the Agricore elevator in Letellier that they would have to pay 2 cents a bushel to get rid of their barley. They would have to pay.

We have not seen that since the Dirty Thirties, and this minister says, "No urgency. No big deal." We have had, over the last two years, a cattle industry that has been attacked from all sides, including BSE. Yet she says, "No big deal. There is no urgency." We now have a trade negotiation, which is happening currently in Geneva, and discussions are going to happen in Hong Kong where the dairy industry is going to be told that the tariffs that Canada currently applies to dairy products coming into this country are going to be negotiable.

The tariff on egg producers, on eggs and poultry coming into this country will be under attack. Our very institution that we have used for years to market our wheat collectively is going to be on the block, on the negotiating table. Mr. Speaker, this minister says that that is not important to her: "I do not need to hear this; I do not want to know this before I go meet with my counterparts." What reflection of support does that indicate to the agricultural community of this province?

Basically, they were told today, "You are on your own, that if this ship sinks out in the middle of the waters of nowhere, you are on your own." We are not even going to send the 20, oh, the 20 agronomists that supposedly were on Devils Lake for four weeks as the Premier (Mr. Doer) said. Then he changed his mind and said for three weeks. Then his department said, "Oh, no, they were not there three weeks.

They were only there the better part of three days, and we do not know whether we can send that lifeline out to our agricultural producers because we do not know whether the length of the rope has to be four weeks, three weeks or the better part of three days."

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 595 Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to say this to you. If our Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) has not prepared herself for the discussion that is going to take place with the ministers of Agriculture of this country, she will make our agricultural producers look silly, and she will portray them as paupers in a basket standing before the Grinch. That is how this Premier has portrayed our agriculture industry. He believes that the people of this province are naive enough to believe what he has told them. I say to you, Mr.

Speaker, it is time that this NDP government of Manitoba stand tall in the protection of its agricultural industry because it is one of the highest employment industries in this province.

It is one of the largest contributors to the economy of this province, but paying two cents a bushel for our barley growers to get rid of it, if that is the model of this Premier, which has never happened under any other premier that I am aware of, if that is the model this Premier wants to put as a negotiating item before the international trade panel, then I pity the farmers of this province because they are being abandoned and they are going to be portrayed as paupers on their own without any baskets in their hand, and may the Grinch help them. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, on a grievance? Mr. David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): On a grievance, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am always reluctant to rise on a grievance because I believe that, as we only have one opportunity per session, it is done with the greatest of consideration as to which topic one does raise and put on the record, a reflection of not only what one holds dear personally but what one has represented in the Legislature and has been duly elected to represent.

On the issue of agriculture, we heard today in the House a very, very disappointing response to vitally important questions posed by the honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) and the honourable Member for Lake side (Mr. Eichler).

The Minister of Agriculture danced around the issue and gave us on this side of the House a very clear indication that she is not prepared for the meetings that she will be attending just two days from now. * (14:50) Following that up, it is just less than a month away that she will be leaving with the delegation from Canada to represent our nation at the World Trade Organization talks in Hong Kong. Our agricultural industry in Manitoba is without question the backbone of our economy here in the province of Manitoba.

It provides a livelihood not only for the 2 percent of our population that are directly engaged in agricultural product production here in the province of Manitoba, but more than 11 percent on top of that derive their livelihood directly from agricultural industry here in the province of Manitoba. It is not as much as it was in the past when just a few sh ort years ago one in five Manitobans derived their livelihood from agriculture, but that is a progression that we all see within the industry that I am very proud to say I was engaged for all of my working career prior to entry into the Legislative Assembly.

It is because we as producers are becoming more efficient in the work that we do on the farm as are those persons that are engaged in industries that take our agricultural product raw in nature and refine that to a useable, saleable, consumable product. We are very proud to say that here in Manitoba and in the nation of Canada we produce an edible product that is the least-cost product in all of the world. Study indicates that in the province of Manitoba, in the nation of Canada, we use less time, working time to purchase our daily needs than anywhere else in the world.

Two hours and twelve minutes of the average income of a Manitoban pays for that individual's daily needs as far as food is concerned. That is the least amount in all the world, and I look to other areas in the world where virtually all of the day that an individual works is consumed in just garnering enough to eat for that particular day, and we do it in a very, very minor amount of time. Mr.

Speaker, as I say, I hesitated to rise because we only have one opportunity to raise issues that we feel vitally important that are not being addressed but one fundamental comment that the minister made today was that she was part of a team. While we all recognize, having been involved in team performance, that you must carry your own weight, you have to be there and not the weakest link. You want to be there and be a part of the team contributing to the team work that will represent Canada.

I feel that our minister and our department under this NDP government is not prepared to fulfil that obligation as a team member heading to Hong Kong in less than a month. In fact, we asked the minister as

596 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 to who represents the team, who is she taking. Is she even in fact going herself to the World Trade Organization negotiations in Hong Kong? The make- up of the representation from Manitoba tells all about this government's attitude towards agriculture. I just returned from Nova Scotia last week, and I asked the Minister of Agriculture as to their participation in the WTO talks in Hong Kong. The minister's response was that he personally did not have the expertise in all of the areas which would be discussed at the talks.

So what he was doing was he was taking stakeholders along with him to the negotiations in Hong Kong. He recognized the need that those persons that are directly affected by the negotiations which are commencing in less than one month's time be the ones there participating and offering himself advice, who in turn will offer advice to our negotiators, the federal government representatives. Mr. Speaker, I think it is deplorable that on such a vitally important issue that the minister's response today was so woefully inadequate to the questions asked.

It dismays me greatly, not only as a representative of Portage la Prairie, but also as a producer engaged in agricultural production in the province. I will also take my opportunity to express my disappointment on a couple of other issues that I have not yet seen addressed here by this government. I attended Manitoba's organization of those parties engaged in the infrastructure area, last week's annual general meeting, and it was stated that now the deficit that we are all facing as Manitobans in the area of infrastructure has risen above $7.4 billion; $7.4 billion.

It bears repeating because this is a deficit the same as that recorded by the financial statements that are presen ted to the House by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Se linger). It is nowhere to be found in those documents, but it is real. It is a deficit that we must come to grips with. This government has ju st, I am at a loss for words, but the government was celebrating the signing of the gas tax infrastructure agreement with the federal government that will provide a mere $167 million over five years. I do not know if anyone would be celebrating over table scraps, as I will reference that amount of money.

We send to Ottawa on just gasoline and diesel fuel more than that amount on an annual basis. So I will say, I do not know why the government is celebrating when all they are celebrating is a return of 20 cents on a dollar paid by Manitoba in the motoring industry. I feel that again too is deplorable.

I want to also state at this time, because this infrastructure deficit is real, I would like to see the Department of Finance record the deficit in depreciation of Manitoba-owned assets, Manitoba- owned infrastructure so that the government can give a true picture to Manitobans as to what we are leaving as a legacy to our grandchildren and children of this province– Mr. Speaker: Order. Resume Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): With regard to Private Members' Resolutions, I would like to announce that the diabetes resolution will be considered next Tuesday. Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce that in addition to the meetings already scheduled for the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development to consider the architects and engineers bill, the committee will also meet Wednesday, November 23, at 9 a.m., Thursday at 6 p.m. [interjection] Yes, Wednesday morning and then Thursday night at 6.

The Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs will meet on Monday, November 28, at noon, to deal with the issue of the reappointment of the Conflict of Interest Commissioner. * (15:00) Mr.

Speaker: It has been announced that next Tuesday, the PMR will be on diabetes and also announced that, in addition to meetings already scheduled for the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development to consider Bill 7, The Architects and Engineers Scope of Practice Dispute Settlement Act (Various Acts Amended), the committee will also meet on Wednesday, November 23, 2005, at 9 a.m., and on Thursday, November 24, 2005, at 6 p.m.

It is also announced that the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs will meet on Monday, November 28, 2005, at noon to deal with the issue of reappointment of the Conflict of Interest Commissioner.

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 597 Mr. Mackintosh: Would you please call bills in the order they appear on the Order Paper. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 5–The Dental Hygienists Act Mr. Speaker: Resume debate on second reading, Bill 5, The Dental Hygienists Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). What is the will of the House? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No, it has been denied to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to put a few wo rds on the record with respect to Bill 5, The Dental Hygienists Act. Dental hygienists promote oral health through education, assessment and treatment of teeth. The practice of dental hygiene includes administering oral anesthetic, applying dental sealants, performing orthodontic and restorative procedures. This bill creates a college of dental hygienists for the province of Manitoba similar to the College of Physicians and Surgeons. The bill also creates a council to manage and conduct the business and affairs of the college.

It also requires that one third of the members of the council be appointed by the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) to act as repre- sentatives of the public. The bill includes a provision allowing for requirements of registration to be waived to allow a person who is authorized to practise dental hygiene in another jurisdiction in Canada or in the United States to practise dental hygiene in the province during an emergency. Mr.

Speaker, we agree with the intent of this bill, but I cannot possibly let the issue go by without mentioning the crisis that Manitobans are facing with the current state of pediatric dental surgery in our province. On December 1, 2004, the Minister of Health issued a press releas e promising an additional 600 pediatric dental surgeries would be completed at Misericordia Health Centre by the end of 2005. Nearly one year ago today this Premier (Mr.

Doer) and the Minister of Health made a promise to children waiting in pain that an additional 600 pediatric dental surgeries would be completed in the province by the end of this year. Last week the Minister of Health admitted that those targets may not be met. The number of children waiting for a pediatric dental surgery in Manitoba as of July 2005 totalled 1018. Mr. Speaker, more than 1000 children continue to wait in pain for dental surgery as a result of this government's inaction despite announcements after announcements after announcements.

Freedom of Information requests received last week revealed that, as of September 30, 2005, Manitoba Health was short of their 600-surgery goal at Misericordia Health Centre by 283 surgeries. Freedom of Information requests also indicated that the number of pediatric dental surgeries performed at Children's Hospital as of September 30, 2005, was far short. As a matter of fact, it was short 475 surgeries of reaching the total number of surgeries performed at the hospital from the year before.

The surgical shortfalls at Misericordia Health Centre and Children's Hospital amount to a total shortfall of 758 pediatric dental surgeries as of September 30, 2005. Maples Surgical Centre, a private clinic located in Winnipeg, submitted a proposal to the NDP government last year in which they offered to complete 900 pediatric dental surgeries a year. The government refused to even consider the proposal. If the private clinic's proposal had been accepted, the pediatric dental surgery wait list in Manitoba would have already been eliminated.

If this government was really serious about reducing wait lists in this province, public-private partnerships with a delivery of health care services would have been included in the five-point plan. Promises made are promises broken in Manitoba, with respect to many areas of health care. This Province and this Premier, of health, have failed Manitobans who are waiting in pain. They have broken the promises made a year ago to those waiting in pain, those children waiting in pain for pediatric dental surgery. Why should Manitobans believe them now?

Last week, the Manitoba government promised yet again to complete an additional 200 pediatric dental surgeries per year in the Burntwood Regional Health Authority to help reduce wait lists for children in need of dental surgery. This government continues to make promises to children waiting in pain in our province that they cannot keep. This government has not fulfilled the promises it made a year ago. Why should Manitobans believe them now? These children deserve much better. Mr. Speaker, with respect to Bill 5, The Dental Hygienists Act, again, we agree with the intent of the bill.

The bill was requested by the dental hygienists

598 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 in Manitoba, who wish to have a self-regulating body and who no longer want to be under the jurisdiction of the Dental Association. As we understand, after meeting with a representative from the minister's Department of Health, when I asked the question of who was consulted with respect to this bill, we were told that consultation has occurred with dental hygienists, the relevant educational institutions and the regional health authorities on this matter. Again, we wish the dental hygienists well.

They are a significant organization within our province that do a lot for Manitoba ns. I can recall the first time that I took my daughter, about a year ago, to the dentist, how incredibly friendly the dental hygienists were to her and, indeed, were very helpful to me in how to take care of my children's teeth, something that is extremely important in Manitoba. We need to make sure that children understand the importance of cleaning their teeth and understanding just how important that is towards their health. So, Mr.

Speaker, I believe at this point we are prepared to move this Bill 5, The Dental Hygienists Act, on to committee. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is second reading of Bill 5, The Dental Hygienists Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 6–The Dental Association Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 6, The Dental Association Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). What is the will of the House? An Honourable Member: No. Mr.

Speaker: No. It has been denied to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased again to put a few words on the record with respect to Bill 6, The Dental Association Amendment Act. This bill is essentially a clean-up bill. Currently, dental assistants and dental hygienists are required to be registered with the Dental Association. The dental hygienists have requested a bill making them self-governing with the creation of a college, and I just spoke previously about that bill, Bill 5, The Dental Hygienists Act.

Dental assistants have decided that it is okay for the Dental Association to continue to be their regulatory body, but there is a need to make this authority more formalized. This bill allows the dental assistants to be regulated by the Dental Association and to be subject to complaints and disciplinary procedure under the Dental Association mandate. * (15:10) This bill also updates some of the language of the bill, which was drafted in the 1970s and is now clearly out of date, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, again with respect to this Bill 6, we agree with the intent of the bill.

As we understand, once again, when I went for my briefing with one of the minister's staff from th e Department of Health, I asked, because it is very important to me to understand who is consulted when they bring forward these bills, so I asked who had been consulted. They said the consultation had occurred with the Dental Association and the dental assistants. We hope that the government continues to consult with those organizations and other organizations that will be affected by various changes in this Bill 6, as well as all other bills that are brought before this House. So, at this time, Mr.

Speaker, we are prepared to move this Bill 6 on to committee. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: Any other speakers? Is the House ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is second reading of Bill 6, The Dental Association Amendment Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 11–The Winter Heating Cost Control Act Mr. Speaker: Resume debate on second reading on Bill 11, The Winter Heating Cost Control Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach).

What is the will of the House, for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Russell? [Agreed]

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 599 Mr. Conrad Santos (Wellington): It would be a pleasure, Mr. Speaker, to put a few words on Bill 11, The Winter Heating Costs Control Act. It is the purpose of this proposed legislation to protect the consumers, the people in Manitoba, from the elements when they need some heating in their homes by prohibiting further increases in natural gas prices for consumers of Centra Gas during the 2005 and 2006 winter heating season.

The winter heating season is the period of time where there is a gap, a lack of time, from the time that the Centra Gas, as a buyer, will purchase the supply of natural gas heating. There is a time lag to the ensuing time where Centra Gas sets the gas rate to be charged to the customer in order to recover the cost price paid to its western Canadian supplier of natural gas. Mr. Harry Schellenberg, Acting Speaker, in the Chair Centra Gas Manitoba Incorporated is a wholly owned subsidiary of Manitoba Hydro.

In the transactions in the marketplace, which are taking place in the international market, there is an exchange of values when Centra Gas will be buying supplies in wholesale, so to speak, from western Canadian suppliers of natural gas. The money will flow from Centra Gas Manitoba Incorporated, as buyer, to the western Canadian supplier of gas, as wholesaler; in return, there will be gas energy flowing from Centra Gas to the pipelines to Centra Gas Incorporated. Included in that arrangement, the gas rates are set up and distribution, as to riders, in that arrangement.

Lately, because these are public utilities and it involves the welfare and general well-being of Manitobans, both Centra Gas Manitoba Incorporated and Manitoba Hydro are in the form of Crown corporations, which is a public utility institution, autonomous, at arm's length from the majority government in the province, but because they are invested with an element of public interest, they cannot just freely participate in the exchanges of value in the marketplace. There has to be some form of government regulation and intervention.

So the Public Utilities Board is the independent arm of general public interest in order to have some say on how far these gas rates can go up. If these gas rates are left to the wild forces of the marketplace without any kind of regulation, the increases that Manitoba Hydro had been saying will be about a 44 percent increase, which is too high for the ordinary Manitoba clients to pay.

Therefore, it is the purpose of this legislation to allow the government, as the stewards of all the welfare of all the people in Manitoba, to limit such price increases for customers during the winter period, winter heating season, and also, in between those heating seasons, to limit and control the volatile changes in the rates. The Public Utilities Board had approved a 6.3 increase for residential customers of gas from November 1, and this is lower than any other province, such as, for example, lower than Saskatchewan, which approved a 10 percent increase.

On the other hand, the commercial rates had been separated from the residential rates as a different category and it has been set at 12 to 18 percent. This is less than half of the projected free market rates, which is a 44 percent increase. We could see, then, that because this is a public utility corporation it is an entity that is concerned with the general welfare of the citizen. It cannot freely participate in the so-called free market forces because then it will be too difficult for ordinary Manitobans to be able to pay their heating costs during these harsh winter seasons.

We are here dealing with energy which is non- renewable and, therefore, it is limited in supply. It is a scarce resource, and, being scarce, it is so volatile in the price rates, depending on the demands during those periods and seasons of time. We know that our hydro, on the other hand, the hydro energy, the electricity as compared to the gas energy, is a renewable form of resources.

The electricity there, the electric power, comes from the force of the waterfalls, and it renews itself automatically during the cycles of the season. * (15:20) It is written in Ecclesiastes that all the rivers flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full, never filled up and the water flows to the place beyond where they return again to the place where they came from. If we trace this flow of water out of the lakes, mist will form. It will be absorbed by the atmosphere and becomes cloud. The cloud will fall as rain or as snow depending on whether it is summer or winter.

If it falls during wintertime, the snow accumulates in the surface of the ground. It builds up mounds and mounds of snow and ice in the rivers, and then when spring comes around, all this water melts and it flows into little rivulets. It is going to the river, for example, the Red River, and the Red River then goes back to the lake where it came from.

600 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 So it is a circle. It is a cycle, but in the process, when the forces of the river, the currents, are harnessed by those turbines, the force of the water in its natural state is conver ted into electric power. Electricity is useful for the convenience and comfort of the citizens, for the productive power of our industry, for everything such as that, as contrasted to the fossil fuel of gases or oil which are exhaustible in the sense that they are no t renewable.

Once they are exhausted, then they are gone, but Manitoba is so lucky that its resources of energy are a renewable form of resource in the form of electricity from the force of the water. When Centra Gas, because the cost is so high, will have to incur some kind of losses, then Manitoba Hydro will try to smooth out these changes in the price rates of different time periods.

So they establish a fund, a stabilization fund, to protect the customers from these increases, and there will be account balancing, the bala nce of accounts between the holding company which is Manitoba Hydro and the wholly owned subsidiary Centra Gas. The purpose of the fund is to provide support for the programs and services that are being provided, as well as to encourage effici ency and conservation of electricity and natural gas energy in Manitoba. In addition, it also will motivate the development of alternative sources of ener gy, and we are beginning to witness some of those alternative sources.

The wind is another element in the natural state of nature. Like water, the wind is there, but it can also be harnessed by technology to produce energy. It is written there, in the Good Book, the wind bloweth towards the south and then turn around and returneth towards the north, then it turn around and around continually in its own circle. As the wind circles around, the turbines in St. Leon will be moving, and this movement will be converting the power of the wind into electricity.

When there are enough of those turbines, wind turbines, then there will be sufficient amount, a quantum of energy that can be harnessed to sustain and support and complement the electric power in Manitoba. To that extent, it also will help to reduce the dependency of the industry and the homes and the commercial establishments on imported natural gas from outside the provinces. To that extent it will be good for the economy of Manitoba. We know that we cannot live without heating in this kind of harsh geographic region. In Canada we are in the north, in North America.

As human beings, emotive, cognitive beings, we have basic needs to survive. The most basic, of course, are the physiological needs of our material physical body: the need for food, for shelte r, for rest when we are tired. That is the base of the pyramid in the human society. That is the very basic need that everybody should never, never be deprived of because, without food, without water, you will have no way of surviving as a physiological, emotive human being.

But then at the next level of human needs, according to Abraham Maslow, the psychologist who developed this hierarchy of human needs, after we have satisfied the basic need for physiological need for food, for shelter and for rest, then there is a safety need. We have these safety needs from danger and the danger is not only coming from our neighbours. The danger also comes from the natural elements, the whole style, elements in the environment. The harsh winter in Manitoba is a safety net.

If your house runs out of heat and you no longer can buy natural gas, you will shiver and you will probably cover yourself with blankets, piles and piles of blankets, but there will be a point when you no longer can sustain the heat in the house. You will shudder in cold, and then ultimately you get pneumonia and then you die. It is a basic need next to food.

Therefore, it is the function of government to protect its citizens from the hostile elements of the environment, and when most of the people in our province can no longer afford the high escalating cost of natural gas, then it is the duty, moral duty and obligation of government to do something about it. This government is doing something about the potentiality of a harsh winter and a very expensive heating cost of natural gas in this province.

Therefore, like paying your mortgage, you know when you buy the natural gas at a very expensive rate, very high steep rate, what the government is attempting to do is to spread out all those high costs, spread them out in a longer period of time so that it will not be too difficult for the clients to pay their bills. Similarly, when you have a mortgage, you want to pay only small instalments. What you do is you extend the time period of these payments, and then it will not be too difficult for you if you have a limited income to carry the cost of the mortgage.

That is the same thing, the same principle here with respect to the cost of gas. * (15:30)

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 601 Now, that is not the only other element. There are other alternative sources of energy. The sun is itself an enormous unending source of energy if we know and we had the technology to do it. So solar power comes from the sun and it is written, the sun also rises and the sun goeth down and it hastens back to the place where it arose and it rises again. So all of these are circular forces of nature, all of them are forces of energy.

It is only because we have been harnessing them when we develop the appropriate technology to make use of all these elements, all these forces, for the convenience of our species as people, as human beings, on this planet Earth. The Earth itself, at the core of the Earth, if you dig, dig, dig down there, in the core of the Earth there is hard stuff there, but once you penetrate the hard rocks, there will be like a volcano, there will be heat down there in the centre of the Earth. The deeper you go to the centre of the Earth, the hotter the temperature will be.

There is now a technology called a geothermal pump that can extract all this heat from the bowels of the Earth in order to supply the necessary energy for buildings, residential, commercial or other purposes. The geothermal energy in Manitoba is being harnessed now and, according to the latest information, it has doubled, at least four times the number of people going into geothermal sources of energy within the past four years.

This means that Manitoba Hydro and the government in partnership are installing geothermal heat pumps much more frequently than before and many people have been assisted so that they will no longer be dependent on their gas heating bills after they invest in this geothermal heating. The Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau), I believe, and the Minister of– [interjection] No, this one. An Honourable Member: Industry. Mr. Santos: Industry and Economic Development– An Honourable Member: And Mines. Mr. Santos: And Mines. Oh, there is Mines.

When his house was burned by accident, he got the insurance money, but the use of that money was made in a very intelligent way. In the new building that would be built there, he thought about geothermal energy. I have not seen that house. Many people have been invited in that house, but I have not been there. I understand that this is a model, an example where, in the long run, you will save money and decrease your heating costs if you go to a geothermal form of energy generation and source of heating in the home. Of course, it is best when you have a newly built home.

You cannot do that in the old homes, especially in the North End or in the West End. You have to dig, dig and where will the rest of the house go? It is very difficult to do that with old homes and old houses. One more advantage of avoiding the fossil fuel sources of energy like oil and gas is that there is no by-product in the geothermal heating that pollutes the environment. There is no other by-product there like carbon dioxide.

But, if you burn oil as you will notice when all the cars are running in the streets, they make this kind of dark exhaust, and if you smell those things, you accumulate them in your lungs. When you do, either you get pneumonia or other forms of sickness or it shortens your life. It is the same thing like smoking. Even if you are a non-smoker, if you always inhale all that exhaust in the streets, your lungs will be dark. An Honourable Member: What about marijuana? Mr. Santos: What about marijuana? Well, they say in a small amount, a very, very small amount– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Santos: I read about it. I am not experimenting on it. I am not trying it like Clinton. There are people who suffer from cancer or other kinds of debilitating disease, and they find some comfort and some kind of relief when they use little amounts of this. That is the reason why in Flin Flon in the mines there that they can no longer use for anything, they grow these things. If it authorized, it should be legal to grow it down there in the mines, but to grow it in your homes in a residential area will be illegal, and it should be, and people are being caught if they violate the rules.

It is possible if the rates stay high for natural gas, there are many consumers that have to use this natural gas, but they have no money to pay for it. It is very probable and it is almost inevitable that bills will pile up, but Centra Gas cannot collect. How can you squeeze water from a stone? [interjection] Only one can do that, not us. [interjection] Yes, there was a stone there when the people in Egypt were fleeing

602 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 and had nothing to drink. They tapped at the rock and fresh water flowed. That water is the water of life, clean water. Water is the symbol of life. It is the symbol of life. You can live for a longer period of time if you lack only the solid food, as long as you have some form of water, but once water is denied in your system, only a couple of days you will go and die. Why? Because our body is composed of mostly water. Almost 90 percent or over of our body is water.

To prove it, when somebody dies and they go to the incinerator and the ashes are there, you can pick up the ashes and put it in a little container. All the rest is water. * (15:40) Some people, because their loved ones loved them so much, carry this little container in their home wherever they go, because that is the icon that serves as a symbol of the person whom they love. So what the government is doing here is a very commendable action. It is really the duty of government to act as stewards of the general welfare and interests of all the people, especially if it is basic, such as the need for surv ival.

Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): It is my pleasure to put on the record my comments on Bill 11. As usual, I will not follow the same philosophical bent of my good friend and my neighbour, the Member for Wellington (Mr. Santos). I am going to talk more specifically about the reasons for this bill and the impact of this bill on the people of Minto, whom I am so privileged to represent in this Legislature. Now, I know that, fo r the members of the opposition, they do not find their way into that area very often, despite my offer for lunch, which none of the members have taken me up on.

Minto starts almost directly north of this Chamber. It runs from Balmoral Street out to St. James Street through what we would call the West End of the city of Winnipeg. As we look from Balmoral Street to Arlington Street, it is a mix of apartments and homes. From Arlington west to St. James Street, it is almost all single-family homes. If I could use one expression to describe the housing stock in Minto, it would be old and older. Many of the homes in Minto were built almost a hundred years ago.

Even the newest homes in Minto, which you will find in the north-western part of the constituency, Valour Road, Ashburn, are still more than 50 years old. Certainly, they were built in a different time and built to very, very different energy efficiency standards. For the people of Minto, there really are not the same opportunities to embrace alternative energy as there are for many other people in the province of Manitoba. Now, we have heard other speakers talk about the different great alternatives that are now available for people who want to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels, on traditional fuels.

Unfortunately, those do not work especially well for the good people of Minto. I am very excited about the advent of geothermal energy in the province of Manitoba and, frankly, people in Minto are as well. But it is not going to work in their homes, at least until the science develops to some great extent, because you see, Mr. Depu ty Speaker, most of the lots in Minto are 25-foot lots. They have small front yards, small back yards. At the present time, converting to geothermal simply is not something that people of Minto can do, but they still support it.

They are very pleased to have a government which recognizes the advent of geothermal. As well, of course, the people of Minto are industrious, but none of them are running around and putting up windmills on their roofs because, again, it is not something you do in the middle of the city of Winnipeg, but, certainly, they support the incredible developments of wind energy elsewhere in the province, of course, in rural Manitoba which is benefiting so much from this new source of energy.

So, again, the people of Minto are excited about a government which supports wind, but it is not going to help them with their problem this winter. There are some other developments which are occurring in hydro-electricity, and I understand even this week there is some interest in new kinds of turbines that can go into waterways. Instead of building a traditional dam, I understand there is some development of turbines which actually go into the river and can provide local generation of hydro- electricity. Now, Omand's Creek is a lovely waterway, Mr.

Deputy Spea ker, and I have spent a lot of time down there with my family, with my constituents. I do not think we are going to be building any hydro capacity in Omand's Creek, which is the only flowing waterway in Minto. An Honourable Member: It would be a challenge. Mr. Swan: The Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), I rarely agree with him, but he acknowledges it would be a challenge, and that is true.

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 603 Having said that, the people of Minto are, certainly, excited about a government which is supporting Manitoba Hydro in some incredible developments in hydro-electricity and continuing to build on this renewable energy source. Now, the good people of Minto are all very interested in solar energy as a possibility.

If you have got a 25-foot lot, that does not leave a lot of room for a south-facing roof, so, until the cost of photocells decreases greatly, I do not expect there are going to be very many people in Minto that are going to be running out to use photocells to provide some of their heating. So the people of Minto, the great majority of them, are pretty much reliant on natural gas for their heating, and, of course, they are also Hydro subscribers and rely on hydro-electricity. People in Minto have conventional furnaces in many cases. They have old windows. They have old doors.

They have old insulation in their walls. Many people have uninsulated basements, and I can speak about all those things from personal experience with my own home built in 1912. So there are certainly some opportunities for people in Minto to reduce the amount of energy they consume, but the number of alternative sources they ca n use at this time, given the circumstances, is quite limited.

Before I talk about this government's bill and the position that we are taking on this side of the House, I want to spend a few minutes talking about what I have heard from the other members of this House, the opposition parties on this bill. It is difficult to understand where my friends in the Progressive Conservative Party stand on this issue, and it appears that they are opposed to our publicly owned hydro- electric utility supporting Manitobans in taking steps to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels. They appear– An Honourable Member: That is today. Mr. Swan: The Member for Interlake (Mr.

Nevakshonoff) says, "That is today." This could change tomorrow, or it could change the day after that. But let it be said that the Progressive Conservative Party has stood up in this House and has opposed the good things which Manitoba Hydro is doing to make Manitoba more energy efficient. And what of the Liberal Party of Manitoba? Well, what of the Liberal Party of Manitoba is a question that people ask many times, and we heard the leader of that party, the Member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard), st and up in this House and suggest that market forces should simply dictate the price of natural gas, which would result in a 44- percent increase in the price of natural gas. When I hear Liberal and Conservative members stand up, the only justification they can come up with is, well, if this bill passes, you are encouraging people to waste fossil fuels, to waste natural gas. I think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, a reality check is in order. It is unclear what the opposition members think is going to happen if the natural gas prices are controlled, as we are suggesting would happen with Bill 11.

Do they really think that the people of Ashburn Street are going to purposely leave their windows open? Do they think people on Victor Street are going to leave their doors open and waste energy? Do they think people on Lipton Street are going to turn up the heat inappropriately? That is nonsense. The people of Minto, whether the price of gas is 9 cents per kilojoule, or whatever it may be, are going to do the best they can to reduce the amount of gas they are using and reduce their costs. Mr.

Speaker in the Chair The simple fact is that given the spike in energy prices, it is not reasonable to expect people in Minto or Wellington or Transcona or Elmwood or any other constituency in this province to be able to do that work so quickly as to avoid the tremendous increases in natural gas. Now, in my own constituency office, Mr. Speaker, I cannot keep those Manitoba Hydro brochures in stock. Hydro provides free brochures on different ways that people can improve the energy efficiency of their homes and their apartment buildings and I cannot keep them in stock.

People come in and they are interested to see what Hydro has to say. In the past winter, I held two Power Smart meetings in Minto, and I was very pleased they were attended by approximately 200 people. There were two tremendous presenters from Manitoba Hydro, Ed Nichiporick and Martin Eyolfson, who gave straightforward, factual, understandable advice to people in Minto about how they could conserve energy within their homes. The 200 people who came to those meetings were not tire kickers. They were not people just looking for an evening out.

These were Minto residents very serious about energy conservation, who wanted to learn about high-efficiency furnaces, who wanted to learn about weather stripping, about windows, about doors, about insulating their

604 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 basements and insulating their roofs. Each of those meetings went on for some two hours. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I got the sense that here were 200 Minto residents who were prepared to go out there, put some money into the improvement of their homes, who were certainly interested in saving energy. * (15:50) Certainly, people are excited that Power Smart offers low-cost loans to people who do not have the money in their pockets to go and make those investments.

Certainly, through the help of Manitoba Hydro, people can borrow money to make those improvements, pay it back on their Hydro bill at a very reasonable rate of interest. As well, our friends in the federal government do throw in money. There is a grant which is available for people who go and have an assessment done of their home's energy efficiency and then take steps to improve it. Those grants do not cover the entire cost of the improvements or the repairs, but they certainly help.

Of course, very recently Manitoba Hydro, through its Power Smart program, indicated a further rebate of up to 100 percent of the cost of insulation materials, not only for electric-heated homes, but also natural gas-heated homes, which will allow an additional 120 000 homeowners to get $500 rebates to upgrade their insulation levels to reduce their consumption of energy, whether it is natural gas or hydro. Now, certainly, the Power Smart program is something people in Minto are very excited about. Power Smart is a leader not only in Canada, but a leader in North America.

Manitoba Hydro and this government have had the foresight to expand th e residential efficiency programs through Power Smart and Manitobans, including those in Minto, have responded enthusiastically. It bears noting, Mr. Speaker, that Manitoba went from ninth place to first place in this country in terms of Canadian energy efficiency activities. In the last three years, more than 70 000 Manitoba families, including a good share of those in Minto, have participated in various Power Smart programs and that has had many, many positive effects.

It saved Manitobans energy, it has reduced their home heating bills and it has also boosted the local economy and boosted local employment at the same time. Certainly, this is all good, because every cubic foot of gas that we do not have buy from Alberta means less money flowing out of our province, and every watt of hydro that we can save through Power Smart here in Manitoba is another watt of electricity that we can sell to our friends in Minnesota, in North Dakota, in South Dakota, Nebraska and now, of course, the good people of Ontario, as we saw the day the Throne Speech came down.

Now, certainly, one of the other exciting things for the people of Minto is that Bill 11 is going to provide some specific assistance for Manitoba Hydro to work with community groups to ensure that low- income homes and neighbourhoods are better able to reduce their heat loss and have greater access to alternatives. Certainly, that fits very well in Minto, which is one of the beneficiaries of this government's incredibly successful Neighbourhoods Alive! program. Neighbourhoods Alive! came in shortly after this government was elected in 1999.

In the Minto constituency, it includes what we would call the Spence neighbourhood from Sherbrook, from Maryland, east to Balmoral Street. Of course, in June, we were very excited to announce a great expansion of Neighbourhoods Alive! to take in the Daniel McIntyre and the St. Matthew communities which includes everyone in Minto living east of Ingersoll Street. Tremendous opportunities and, certainly, allowing the Power Smart to target low- income neighbourhoods, low-income households, is going to provide some tremendous energy savings for people in that area.

So, certainly, this is a good bill and I suppose there is still time for the opposition parties to turn around, recognize that and vote with us, but we will see what happens. When I look at The Winter Heating Cost Control Act, Bill 11, I look at the

preamble to see some of the facts and some of the assumptions on which this bill is based and, frankly, it is very difficult to argue with what is contained in the

preamble. The first thing was that Centra Gas Manitoba "purchases natural gas to supply the needs of consumers in Manitoba." Well, certainly, that is a fact and I do not expect anybody is going to question that. The act also states that "Centra Gas makes no profit on the sale of natural gas commodity to its Manitoba customers but only passes on to them the cost that it incurs in purchasing natural gas." Again, that is true. Centra Gas simply passes on the cost of the product that it buys to consumers. The third

WHEREAS in the

preamble states that "price fluctuations occur between the date Centra Gas purchases natural gas and the date it sets the rate to recover its costs from its customers." Well, of course, that is true. There has been a spike unlike anything that we have seen in history with the natural

November 22, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 605 gas prices. Again, I do not think there is any disagreement on that fact. The fourth part of the

preamble says that "Centra Gas has the ability to account for those price fluctuations through the use of various deferral and gas balancing accounts." Indeed, Mr. Speaker, that is what Centra Gas has done with a great deal of success, which has protected Manitoba consumers as far as can reasonably be expected, although, of course, with the spike in gas prices, unless other steps are taken, that will become a problem by the end of the winter. The next item in the

preamble is that "the Province of Manitoba and the Public Utilities Board consider that the hardship that Centra Gas customers experience from escalating natural gas prices can be alleviated somewhat by deferring price increases." Well, maybe here is where the difference is, because those of us on our side of the House accept that.

We accept what the Public Utilities Board says, and it says that we should take some steps to alleviate the problem by deferring price increases. [interjection] I hear the Liberal member from Inkster, upset about this, because, clearly, he would follow his leader, the member from River Heights's lead, and he would say, "Fine, let us leave it to the market," and I am going to be very happy in the next election to be knocking on some doors in Inkster and telling them how their member of the Legislature would support a 44-percent increase in their natural gas bills.

Then, when that happens, of course, when we do have a New Democrat member from Inkster, the people in that area will have much, much more reasonable representation in this House. Now, the next item, of course, is that the Public Utilities Board has ordered Centra Gas to take steps to enhance space heat retention and heating efficiency for reasons related to customer costs, the environment and gas system viability.

So the Public Utilities Board is certainly aware of the successes of Power Smart, but has given a clear direction to this government to do more, to take Power Smart and to make sure that it is available for everyone in the province of Manitoba and encourage people to save energy, whether it is hydro, whether it is gas and, certainly, encourage people to consider alternate forms of energy.

Finally, of course, the Public Utilities Board has encouraged Manitoba Hydro to explore the possibility of using its electricity export revenues to fund programs that encourage consumers to reduce their levels and patterns of energy consumption. So we are taking a small percentage of our sales of electricity to our friends to the south of us, to the east of us, perhaps, one day, to the west of us, and use that to save energy in Manitoba, save Manitobans some money on their bills, and encourage the development of these alternate sources of energy. When I look at the

preamble to this bill, it seems pretty clear to me. Certainly, the purposes of the act are also very clear.

Section 2 of this act says: "The purposes of this Act are (

a) to protect consumers from the impact of rising heating costs during the winter season;"–something which my opposition friends do not seem to understand–"and (

b) to provide support for programs and services (

i) for electricity and natural gas energy efficiency, enhance space heat retention and heating efficiency; and (ii) for developing alternatives to natural gas, in order to ensure that sufficient and sustainable energy resources are available in the future." I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that any opposition member can truly claim there is any problem with the purposes of this act. Their point, of course, is "Well, we like what you are doing, but we do not like the way you are doing it," which has been the Liberal position on many, many great things that we have done.

Well, I suppose we will hear from the Progressive Conservative members when it is time for them to cast their vote, with Manitobans or against Manitobans, on that issue. Certainly, for the people of Minto, they are very, very interested in all the great things that are happening in terms of energy in this province. They are excited about Manitoba Hydro. They are pleased that we continue to have a strong publicly owned utility that is there for all Manitobans, not just a privileged few.

They are happy to have a government which supports their efforts to increase the efficiency of their homes, to increase the efficiency of the insulation, the R value on their windows and their doors, their insulation. They have the confidence that this government is, certainly, looking out for them and, at the end of the day, everyone knows that natural gas prices can be expected to continue to rise, hopefully, nothing like the spike we have seen this year. People know that pursuing further alternatives is necessary but, Mr.

Speaker, the people of Minto, as I said at the beginning of this speech, certainly have a limited number of options available to them. They do not begrudge other Manitobans. They do not

606 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 2005 begrudge Manitobans in rural Manitoba who have the chance to use geothermal heating systems to use Power Smart to put in smart energy. [interjection] * (16:00) No, I hear the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) who now–I do not know if he is upset with the fact that Manitoba is the leader in geothermal energy. That may very well be the case. The point, Mr. Speaker, is that people in Minto support all different sources of energy in the province. They support people in Ste. Rose who may choose to put in geothermal heating.

People in Minto and the other inner-city constituencies do not throw up their hands and say, "Well, what is in it for me," because what is in it for all of us as Manitobans is less reliance on fossil fuels, more development of alternative sources of energy which truly does benefit all of us. Again, we do not begrudge the fact that the wind turbines are going up in rural Manitoba because it only makes sense that that is where it happens. That is great that we have farmers who are now earning money from the rights to have those turbines erected on their property. That is great.

People in Minto are not going to complain about that because they see that is part of the bigger picture, the development of alternative sources of energy as being a good thing for this province. So, Mr. Speaker, I think I have put forward the importance of this bill to people who I am lucky to represent in this Legislature. Certainly, they will be watching to see how the opposition parties deal with this bill.

They will be expecting the opposition parties to deal with the reality, deal with their reality, and vote in favour of Bill 11 which is going to, first of all, cushion the rate shock which would otherwise occur and also encourage Manitobans to move forward and deal with the energy sources of the future. So, Mr. Speaker, with those comments, I will conclude this dissertation, if you will, on the effects of Bill 11 on the people of Minto. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: Any other speakers? When this matter is again before the House, it will remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Russell (Mr.

Derkach). House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on House business. I would like to revise an announcement, flesh out an announcement made earlier today regarding the Social and Economic Development Committee and its consideration of Bill 7. In addition to the meetings called for today at 3 and 6 p.m., the committee will also meet, as I said earlier, tomorrow, Wednes day, but from 9 until noon, from 3 until 5 and then again at six o'clock, and, if necessary, the committee will also meet on Thursday, November 24, at six o'clock. Mr.

Speaker: To revise an announcement made earlier today regarding the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development and its consideration of Bill 7, The Architects and Engineers Scope of Practice Dispute Settlement Act (Various Acts Amended), in addition to the meetings called for today at 3 p.m. and 6 p.m., the committee

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-4-17b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 4th hansardpdf 17b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9c1133ed66ec904809b12c57a1c6616388eaae0a

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