Manitoba Hansard — 11 May 2004 (Sitting 36, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-36

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LV No. 36 - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 11, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1913 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 11, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Highway 227 Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition. It is unacceptable for the residents of Manitoba to travel the unsafe gravel roads of Highway 227 in the constituencies of Lakeside and Portage la Prairie. Inclement weather can make Highway 227 treacherous to all drivers. Allowing better access to Highway 227 would ease the flow of traffic on the Trans-Canada High- way.

Residences along Highway 227 are not as accessible to emergency services due to the nature of the current condition of the roadway. The condition of these gravel roads can cause serious damage to all vehicles, which is unaccept- able. Residents of Manitoba deserve a better rural highway infrastructure. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider having High- way 227 paved from the junction of highways 248 and 227 all the way to Highway 16, the Yellowhead route.

To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider supporting said initiatives to ensure the safety of all Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along Manitoba highways. Submitted on behalf of Faye MacMillan, Neil MacMillan, Blanche Tully and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Proposed PLA–Floodway Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for the petition: The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to this project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA). The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union. Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized.

The Manitoba Heavy Co nstruction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million.

The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to o ff-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays." Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the

1914 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construc- tion Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite. Manitobans deserve an open and fair competi- tion that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice. Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Mani- toba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion. To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project. Signed Irene Uskoski, Barry Uskoski and Carole McElheran. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. * (13:35) Highway 32 Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Rural highways are part of the mandate of the Province of Manitoba. Under a previous commi tment, the Province of Manitoba would be covering the costs of four-laning that portion of Highway 32 that runs through Winkler, Manitoba.

The Department of Transportation and Govern- ment Services has altered its position and will now undertake the project only if the City of Winkler will pay half of the total cost of construction. The pro- vincial government's offloading of its previous commitment will cost the City of Winkler several million dollars. The City of Winkler has now been informed that it will have to wait several years before this project could be undertaken.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Mani- toba as follows: To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider honouring the previous commitment and complete the four-laning of Highway 32 through the city of Winkler, absorbing all costs related to the construction as previously agreed. To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider the responsibility of the Department of Transportation and Govern- ment Services for the construction of rural highways.

To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider the significant and strategic importance of the completion of four-laning Highway 32 through the city of Winkler, especially as it relates to the economic growth and the develop- ment of the city of Winkler and its trading area. To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider the valuable contri- bution of the city of Winkler and its trading area to the provincial economy and reprioritize the four- laning of Highway 32 for the 2004 construction season.

Submitted by Marion Peters, Alvin Wiens, Pete Schmidt, Leonard Loewen and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Minimum Sitting Days for Legislative Assembly Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows:

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1915 The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003. Manitobans expect their Government to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on this issue of public accountability. Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold the Government accountable. The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the Government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties.

Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limit- ing the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Mani- toba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Mani- toba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year. Signed by Leo Tolledo, Arnold Rodriguez and Janice Tolledo. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Alzheimer's Disease Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition: Alzheimer's is a debilitating disease. Cholinesterase inhibitors are known to slow or even prevent the progression of Alzheimer's. The provincial government asked for the devel- opment of an Alzheimer's strategy in 2000 and was presented with nine recommendations in 2002, none of which has yet been implemented. In the absence of a provincial Alzheimer's strategy, Mr.

Speaker, the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority put in place a policy in November 2003 whereby Alzheimer's patients entering personal care homes are being weaned from certain Alzheimer mediations in a move that the WRHA's vice-presi- dent of long-term care has referred to as a financial necessity. The administrative costs of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority have more than tripled since 1999, to a total of more than $16 million a year.

In a move that amounts to two-tier medicine, the families of Alzheimer's sufferers in personal care homes may request that the drugs continue to be delivered at the family's expense. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Mani- toba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) to ensure that his attempts to balance his depart- ment's finances are not at the expense of the health and well-being of seniors and other vulnerable Mani- tobans suffering from this debilitating disease.

To urge the Minister of Health to consider reversing his decision to deny Alzheimer's patients in personal care homes access to certain medications. To request the Minister of Health to consider implementing a provincial Alzheimer's strategy. Signed by Heather Fahlman, Shawn Martinuk, Mandy Prescott and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by he House. t * (13:40) Highway 227 Mr. David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition.

It is unacceptable for the residents of Manitoba to travel the unsafe gravel roads of Highway 227 in the constituencies of Lakeside and Portage la Prairie. Inclement weather can make Highway 227 treacherous to all drivers.

1916 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 Allowing better access to Highway 227 would ease the flow of traffic on the Trans-Canada High- way. Residences along Highway 227 are not as accessible to emergency services due to the nature of the current condition of the roadway. The conditions of these gravel roads can cause serious damage to all vehicles, which is unac- ceptable. Residents of Manitoba deserve a better rural highway infrastructure.

We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider having High- way 227 paved from the junction of highways 248 and 227 all the way to Highway 16, the Yellowhead route. To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider supporting said initiatives to ensure for the safety of all Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along Manitoba highways. Signed by Brad Knight, Jean Knight, Dennis McLeod and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132 (6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House.

TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, the 2004-2005 Departmental Expenditure Estimates. Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Inter- governmental Affairs and Trade): Mr. Speaker, I stand to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2004-2005 Departmental Expen- diture Estimates for the Department of Intergovern- mental Affairs and Trade. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Film and Music Awards Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heri- tage and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Today we held a small luncheon in the dining room to honour and recognize a number of talented artists from Manitoba's film and sound industries. Our guests today include this year's Manitoba Juno Award nominees, a Genie Award winner, a Grammy Award nominee and other successful members of the film and sound industry. Attending the luncheon as well were members of the Winnipeg host committee for the 2005 Juno Awards.

As we begin to gear up for what will be the most exciting Juno Awards ever held, I felt it appropriate to acknowledge the efforts of the host committee and host committee chair, Mr. Kevin Walters, in securing this significant national event. This year has been a tremendous year for many of Manitoba's artists. With us today we have Ms. Meg McMillan who recently won a Genie Award for Best Achievement in Costume Design for Guy Maddin's, The Saddest Music in the World . Mr. Maddin was nominated for a Genie Award in the director category. Unfortunately, Mr.

Maddin is unable to be with us today, but we do have one of the film's producers here, Ms. Phyllis Lang, of Buffalo Gal Pictures. The Saddest Music in the World received four nominations and won Genie Awards in three categories. Mr. Speaker, at this year's Juno Awards in Edmonton, Manitoba was well represented by four outstanding nominees: Doc Walker, Burnt, Eagle and Hawk and the Weakerthans. This past November, at the Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards, Burnt won the prestigious Best Rock Album of the Year Award. At this year's Canadian Country Music Awards, Doc Walker brought home three awards.

We also have here with us today Fresh I. E., a rap artist from Winnipeg, w ho this year became the first Canadian to ever receive a Grammy nomination in the hip-hop genre. Today, we also have with us the producer of another successful made-in-Manitoba feature film, Seven Times Lucky , Ms. Liz Jarvis, of Buffalo Gal Pictures. Unfortunately, Mr . Garry Yates, the film's director and writer is not able to be with us today.

It has been quite a year for Seven Times Lucky, filled with critical acclaim and great success at some very prestigious film festivals such as a premiere at the Sundance Film Festival this past January.

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1917 * (13:45) Mr. Speaker, it is an ex citing time for Manitoba's film industry and the future is filled with great promise and opportunity. Since the provincial Budget announced enhancements to the Manitoba Film and Video Tax Credit programs, a number of filmmakers have offered their sincere appreciation for the ongoing support they receive from the Province.

So, while so often our attention has gone to the efforts to lure large U.S. film projects to Manitoba, the success of films such as The Saddest Music in the World and Seven Times Lucky clearly demonstrates the creative strength that exists within our indigenous film industry. I would like to thank all honourable members for this opportunity to recognize and acknowledge these talented and dedicated members of Manitoba's film and sound industries. Thank you. Mrs.

Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I was honoured to be invited to attend the luncheon held today in the dining room, hosted by Minister Robinson, and very pleased to be in the company of such prestigious entertainers as Heather Bishop, Ray St. Germain and Fred Penner, not to mention as well, all of the members of the talented groups who were nominated for the 2004 Juno Awards and had the pleasure of sitting with them at the table. Also, I would like to congratulate Mr. Kevin Walters, who will be hosting the 2005 Juno Awards here in Winnipeg next year. As Minister Robinson said, there were a number of people nominated.

Actually, two films produced in Manitoba resulted in 16 people being nominated in 9 categories at the 2004 Genie Awards. I had the pleasure of sitting with Meg McMillan, who received the Genie for Best Achievement in Costume Design in Guy Maddin's The Saddest Music in the World . She was proudly carrying it with her today in her bag, and I can tell you she passed it around. It is very, very heavy and a very prestigious award. I just had the honour of holding it and it was quite, I know, the closest thing I will ever get to achieving something like that.

I would like to congratulate all the people that were nominated in the categories for the Genie Awards held in Toronto recently and the nominees for the 2004 Juno Awards. These Genie Awards are the main national film award in Canada since its inception in 1980 and have grown in prominence now and are actually Canada's most prestigious cultural event. Again, I congratulate all the nominees and the award winners and congratula te the successes of the 2005 Juno Awards committee. Thank you very much. Mr.

Speaker: Before I recognize the honourable Member for River Heights, I just want to kindly remind all honourable members when addressing other members in the House, ministers by their portfolios and other members by their constituency. Just a kindly reminder to all honourable members. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I seek leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: I heard a no. Leave has been denied. * (13:50) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 300–The Winnipeg Foundation Act Ms.

Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer), that Bill 300, The Winnipeg Foundation Act;

Loi sur la Fondation dénommée–The Winnipeg Foundation, be now read a first time. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Member for St. Norbert, seconded by the honourable Member for Wolseley, that Bill 300, The Winnipeg Foundation Act, be now read a first time. Ms. Brick: Mr. Speaker, The Winnipeg Foundation Act will replace the current version of The Winnipeg Foundation Act. It will update and modernize the Foundation's investment powers, its corporate governance and allow it to manage funds entrusted to it by other charitable and non-profit organizations. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed]

1918 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today Ross Campbell from Winnipeg who is the guest of the honourable Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg). Also in the public gallery we have members from the Juno-nominated bands, Burnt, and Eagle and Hawk; Genie Award winner Meg McMillan; members of the 2005 Juno Host Committee and members of the film and sound industry.

These are the guests of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Mr. Robinson). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you today. ORAL QUESTIONS Justice System Trial Delays Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Last week we uncovered that the growing court backlog meant that there are hundreds of accused that have been waiting more than two years to have their cases brought to trial. I would remind the Premier (Mr. Doer) that for all of those accused, there are just as many victims who are waiting more than two years for justice.

When members opposite were in opposition, they raised concerns of a nine-month court backlog, demanding to know, quote, "What plan will be put in place to deal with this crisis in court?" If the Premier then considered a nine-month backlog to be a crisis, what does he consider a twenty-four-month delay? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): I want to remind members of the House that 86 percent of the cases are being processed in 18 months or less and, for the first time in Manitoba, there is a backlog reduction strategy that is going to work for the benefit of reduced court backlogs.

Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the Premier would not answer that question, but he hands it over to the Minister of Justice. When the Minister of Justice was in opposition and he was looking at that time at an 11-month backlog in the court system, he said, and I quote, "This is a court in crisis. Youth are hardly accountable for the offences when they have to wait this long for a hearing. What emergency action will she now take to finally deal with this crisis, a crisis th at is of her own making?" Those were the words of the minister when he was in opposition.

We now have hundreds of youth accused, waiting more than one or two years to have their cases brought to trial, and yet not even a whisper from this Doer government about the emergency and the crisis in the court sy stem. Our Crown attorneys do not have sufficient staff and resources to deal with the case load, and we fear it is only going to get worse. Is this Premier going to lay off a dozen Crown attorneys next month to ensure that the court backlog gets increased, Mr. Speaker? Is that their plan in a crisis? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I am advised that the timing for young offenders to be before the court has been reduced by 25 percent over the last couple of years. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, what is incredible is that when in opposition this Premier said that a 9- or 11-month backlog was a crisis. Now the minister and the Premier stand up and brag about the fact that some 86 percent of cases are dealt with in some 18 months. It is ridiculous. The courts are in a crisis, accused are made to wait more than one to two years before their case even goes to trial.

The Government has no action plan to deal with the crisis, and now we understand that they are considering laying off some 12 Crown attorneys. Can this Premier please tell Manitobans what he is going to do to deal with this backlog of court crisis? * (13:55) Mr. Doer: We have increased the Crown attorneys' budget by some 68 percent. We have implemented the recommendations that were ignored by members opposite, dealing with mechanization to the files so Crown attorneys can be in the court and not in the office.

We have also introduced with the Chief Judge of Manitoba a strategy to co-o rdinate efforts to reduce the backlog. I have indicated that there has been a 25% reduction in the waiting time for young offenders according to Stats Canada. Mr. Speaker,

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1919 certainly this Government did not increase invest- ments in the Crown attorney's office to lay off very, very important Crown attorney staff. Justice System Trial Delays Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): In 1998 this Justice Minister stated that the issue of court backlogs is a serious one. At that time there was a nine-month court backlog and he called it a crisis. Today, 2146 criminal cases have not been brought to trial for over two years and, last week, he called it a challenge.

Can the minister explain why on the one hand he called a nine-month backlog a crisis, yet now when he has a backlog of over two years, he will only admit that it is a challenge? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, it has been well documented by Statistics Canada and by Dr. Jane Ursel that even in cases of child abuse, under the former administration there were backlogs of 18 months and more. The issue of backlogs is one that came to the floor under their watch, the remand culture that has been built up in our courts right across this country.

At least now, for the first time in this province, there is a reduction strategy in place and, unlike in other provinces, thousands of cases are not being thrown out here. There is a strategy that is going to work. Mr. Hawranik: The police have done their job by investigating and laying charges. It is now the responsibility of the minister to prosecute these charges, yet I understand that he has not renewed the contracts of 12 junior prosecutors beyond next month.

Why, on the one hand, this Justice Minister, why has he not extended the contracts of 12 junior prosecutors, yet, on the other hand, there are 2146 criminal cases still outstanding after more than two years? Mr. Mackintosh: I remind members opposite that 86 percent of the cases are being dealt with in 18 months or less, 74 percent in under a year, Mr. Speaker. I do not know wh ere they were as the remand culture built up, but we have been paying attention to this issue, working with our partners in the justice system to ratchet down this national challenge.

I will ask members opposite, aside from their vivid imagination about Prosecutions, the reality is we increased the budget to Prosecutions 67 percent including, and they can look in this year's Budget, enhancements to Pr osecutions for this fiscal year. Mr. Hawranik: Last week the minister stated that 86 percent of criminal cases have been dealt with in less than 18 months and that was acceptable to him. What is this minister to say about the 14 percent of criminal cases, which is a total of 3523 criminal cases, that have not been prosecuted? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, the members opposite know full well that the causes of delay can be several, whether it is defence tactics, whether it is police disclosure, whether it is prosecution practices or the court itself. But that is why the Front End Project is working with all stakeholders, headed by the Chief Judge, to deal with this problem for the first time in Manitoba history. We are committed to that process. I would like to ask members opposite, where do they stand on the abolition of preliminary inquires– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I think th e rule is customary that in the House the Opposition ask the questions and the Government is to answer them. If they would like to change roles perhaps we could accommodate that. * (14:00) Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, it is not a point of order. * * * Mr.

Mackintosh: I think all Manitobans are entitled to an answer from the Oppo sition as to whether they support the abolition of preliminary inquires as this Government has asked for from the federal government. That triples the length of time it takes to process a case, Mr. Speaker.

1920 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 Crown Attorneys Layoffs Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I think we have heard it all. Not only do they not have any answers to serious questions about what is an important issue to Manitobans, they are now asking us questions. Clearly this Minister of Justice and this Premier have failed Manitobans. When they were in opposition, it was a crisis if there was a wait of some nine months. We now know there is a backlog that is up to 24 months and all the minister can do is ask us for solutions.

I can tell this Minister of Justice and this Premier that Manitobans deserve answers. They want to know what is your plan to ensure that those 12 Crown attorneys will not be laid off come June. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we can recall the members opposite in their so-called election platform were going to give the Department of Justice a very small amount of money, just like they were going to give the Department of Health 1 percent if that alternative budget had ever received any endorsement from the public. Thankfully, the public is smarter than that.

There would have been a devastation of the Justice branch just like there was in the 1990s. I remember that Fridays, the courts were closed and offenders were not dealt with. There are lots of articles from the bar association and criticisms. I remember the Crown attorneys were driven out of Manitoba because members opposite before the election agreed to arbitration, and after the election they passed legislation rolling back Crown attorneys' salaries. We are slowly but surely building up the capacity in the Crown attorney's office both through salaries and staffing.

I am confident that we will continue to build up the capacity of Crown attorneys in Manitoba. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would just like to remind all honourable members that we have guests in the gallery and we have the viewing public. I am sure they came down to be able to hear the questions and the answers. I ask the co- operation of all honourable members, please. Justice System Trial Delays Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, once again, what we hear from this Premier is everything is about looking backwards.

There is nothing about taking a leader- ship role, understanding that this Government has been in for five years, understanding that when they were in opposition they looked at a nine-month court backlog delay and called it a crisis. Now that court backlog because of this minister's inaction is up to 24 months. Manitobans deserve answers. They deserve answers for the crisis that this Government is causing for the court backlog delays. What is his plan to deal with the crisis? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, a 68% increase in the financial support for the Crown attorney's office; a new Chief Justice in Manitoba; a Chief Judge that is workin g on different strategies with all elements of the court systems that deal with the court backlog; a computer that is giving members opposite the information that they are now using in Question Period, was not even available to have that information when we were in opposition; a strategy to deal with young offenders, a 25% reduction in the waiting time for young offenders; specific prose- cutions dealing with Workplace Safety and Health violations, again something that never happened in the past; specific prosecutions dealing with offend- ers, dealing with children, again something that was not in the past.

We have tracking systems that allow our Crown prosecutors to be in court. That is action we have taken and, Mr. Speaker, the member will know that– Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the lack of answers does nothing for the victims of this justice system. It does nothing for the victims because this minister has no action plan and is unable to deal with his own crisis. The Premier likes to stand up and say that there were no records back apparently when the previous government was in government, because they like to talk about numbers. Well, what about words?

What about words that came out of the members opposite's mouths at the time when they said very clearly that a nine-month backlog was a crisis. That is what they said. They said it at the time. It is not a matter of numbers, it is a matter of what they said and what they believed, but now, Mr. Speaker, some 24 months, apparently, is not a crisis, it is a challenge. We have heard that they have a strategy. I say that

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1921 their strategy has about as much impact as a single snowflake on Lake Winnipeg, and that is unfortunate for the people of Manitoba. My question very simply is to the Premier of the province of Manitoba: You had a crisis when it was nine months. What are you going to do now that it is 24 months? Mr. Doer: Members opposite should be very careful about throwing around the rhetoric. Mr. Speaker– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Once again, I would like to ask the co-operation of all honourable members. We have the viewing public.

We have guests in the gallery and decorum is very important. Also the clock is ticking. The more disruptive time we have, the less questions and answers we are going to have, so I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Con- servative platform, the document that the member opposite cannot– [interjection] Well, I would be embarrassed if I were you too, because the Conservative platform has a 0% increase for Crown attorneys, a 0% increase for the year '04-05– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I need to be able to hear the questions and I need to be able to hear the answers in case there is a breach of a rule. I am sure that each and every one of you would expect me to rule on a breach if there is a breach of a rule. I must be able to hear, so I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Doer: The facts are the members opposite's dedication to the Crown attorney's office was zero percent for the '04-05 Budget. Our amount of money is an 11% increase. Facts speak louder than words in terms of action, Mr. Speaker. Winnipeg Regional Health Authority Physician Resources Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): In the last four years, we have seen an increasing shortage of specialist physicians in the WRHA. According to Freedom of Information documents, in 2001 there were 56 vacancies. In March 2004, there were 80 vacancies. I would like to ask the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) what he is going to do to reverse this disturbing trend, because this is going to have a very negative impact on waiting lists for patients in this province. Hon.

Steve Ashton (Acting Minister of Health): As Acting Minister of Health, I think the Opposition Health critic should recognize that one of the most significant challenges that we faced when we were elected in 1999 is the legacy of more than a decade in which we saw more than 1500 nursing positions that were eliminated. We saw a decline in the number of doctors, particularly in the number of doctors being trained at our universities. I think it was very important to note yesterday that we have seen significant progress with 879 more practising nurses in this province and more than a hundred practising physicians.

Notwithstanding that, we have been working continuously where further shortages and recruitment to our province have been developing, including our emergency wards and other areas. I can indicate, in addition to the long- term solutions we have been putting in place since 1999, we have been working on those shortages ffectively. e * (14:10) Mrs. Driedger: Well, the minister did not answer the question of the increasing number of specialists that were vacant, these positions that are vacant here right now. In 2001 the WRHA was short only one ER doctor, now they are short almost nine.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health what he is doing to address this very critical shortage of ER physicians. Mr. Ashton: I think the first important point to note here, Mr. Speaker, is that those positions are staffed, where the full-time physician s are there, so we do have staff in our hospitals providing that service. Rather than simply focussing in terms of the member's question in terms of the immediate situation, I think she should note the fact that we have been working aggressively since 1999 in terms of recruitment.

We have hired three ER doctors through the specialist Recruitment and Retention Fund. We have provided significant pay increases, a total of 36 percent in increases since 2001. By the way, coming from a party that in the last election said they were going to spend 1percent more

1922 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 on health care, we are spending 5.2 percent more in this Budget, the single largest increase in govern- ment. That is how you deal with these shortages. Not Tory words, but NDP action. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, spend more, get less. I am not sure what this minister thinks he is achieving with his comments and rhetoric, and excuses are not going to fix the problem. Last summer the WRHA was short– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Once again, I would like to ask the co-operation of all honourable members.

I think this is about the fourth or fifth time just in this one Question Period. We have viewing public, we have visitors in the gallery. I cannot even hear the question, and she is only, how close to me? From here, and I cannot hear. [interjection] No, and mem- bers are laughing about this. This is very, very serious. The public demands decorum in this Chamber and I think it is incumbent on every one of us that ar e elected by the public to make sure that we maintain decorum that is called for in this Chamber.

I have asked about four or five times just today alone, and I think we need to reflect on our own actions. I hope each and every one of us in this Chamber will look at that. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. When I cannot even hear a question or I cannot even hear an answ er–What about our guests in the gallery that came all the way down here for that? I ask the co-operation of all, all honourable members. The honourable Member for Charleswood has the floor. Mrs. Driedger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Last summer the WRHA was short three psychiatrists and in March of this year they were short nine psychi- atrists. This is going to have a very negative impact on the mental health system. I would like to ask the Minister of Health what he is doing to address this very critical shortage of psychiatrists in this city. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, we are going to continue to do what we have done since we came to office.

I find it incredible from members opposite, who cut the number of admissions to medical school and cut the number of nurses that were being trained, now getting up and asking questions about shortages in this province. We are dealing with a long-term situation through more doctors at the University of Manitoba being trained and more nurses are in the system, 879. In fact, since 1999 we have recruited 150 specialists through the specialist Recruitment and Retention Fund.

Wherever shortages do occur, we are taking aggressive action but, more importantly, we are also working on long-term solutions, something that did not happen for 11 years under the Conservatives. Health Inspectors Resources Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Conservation regarding the health inspectors that provide inspections in the suburban areas here in Winnipeg. A letter was sent to the Department of Conservation back on July 24, 2003, and I would like to just table that letter.

The question that was asked in the letter, and the one I would like to ask the minister and the Government at this time is this, it is a letter concerning the lack of provincial health inspection services in the suburban areas in the city of Winnipeg, and I would like to ask the minister whether he has acted on this letter and what remedies he has brought forth. Hon.

Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): I want to assure all members that our provincial government is committed absolutely to working with other levels of government to make sure that this level of inspection takes place, and the job that we are supposed to do will in fact be done by this Government. Mr. Reimer: These health inspectors have the jurisdiction regarding derelict vehicles, garbage, vermin, rats, infestations in the neighbourhoods. The City of Winnipeg does not have jurisdiction on these types of inspections. These are carried out by the provincial health inspectors.

The City of Winnipeg has requested action to be taken on this. The resi- dents in a lot of the areas, in the suburban area of Winnipeg, this is where the Province has jurisdiction, are not getting coverage. There is a problem out there that the City has addressed. They have sent a letter to the Province asking for some sort of remedy. I am asking the minister what kind of plan has been implemented to get rid of this problem that the inspectors are having.

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1923 Mr. Struthers: Mr. Speaker, unlike the previous government who would not co-operate with other levels of government, our plan is to do that. Also, our plan is to backfill the number of positions that were cut when the previous government was actually moving people out of those services back in the 1990s, when they cut one budget after the next and did not balance their budgets either. Our commit- ment is to make sure that we co-operate with other levels of government in the enforcement of the rules and regulations in this province.

We are also going to make sure that there are people available to do the jobs, unlike the 1990s when members across reigned this province. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, I will point out to the minister, this was a letter that was sent on July 24 of 2003. They were in government. They were the people responsible for the health inspectors in and around the suburbs of Winnipeg. There is a problem there. My understanding is in fact the provincial inspectors have been reduced from 12 to 8, Mr. Speaker.

Now, if they are still doing their job, that is fine, but the City of Winnipeg is complaining that the job is not being done. The City of Winnipeg does not have jurisdiction. The city councillors and City Hall are getting the letters of complaint, but it is actually this Province's responsibility. What can be done? What is being done, and why is it not being implemented to the satisfaction of the City of Winnipeg? They are saying they have a problem there. It is not being addressed by this minister or this Government. Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): We have increased the numbers further to that letter and, secondly, we have had preliminary discussions with the City of Winnipeg on the issue of having inspectors, obviously working inside the old inner city with the city administration and working in the suburban areas under the provincial jurisdiction. We have been able to merge Winnipeg and Manitoba Hydro. We have been able to implement the staff years required for the social services transfer that was not in the '99 budget, I might add. This is another matter, along with ambulances, that we are working on with the City.

Conference of the Reducers Sponsorship Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, it has been advertised that the Manitoba government is a major sponsor of a conference in Toronto. The Conference of the Reducers is a one- day conference and being held tomorrow with the sole purpose of breathing life into the Kyoto accord. Can this Government tell the House how much sponsorship monies went toward this conference? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, I was pleased to answer the question for the member yesterday in the Estimates procedure.

I wanted the member to know that there are so many positive things in terms of recycling happening in this province that he should be aware of. I pointed him in the direction of the Brandon recycling centre. I pointed him towards the Rocky Road Recycling, which does an amazing job of recycling concrete in this province. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, we need to take any lessons from members across the way in terms of commitment to the Kyoto accord and to all of the benefits, environmentally and economically, that that Kyoto accord will bring to Manitobans. *(14:20) Mr.

Faurschou: Yes, the Minister of Conservation is correct in saying that I did pose the question to him yesterday and he did not know. In fact, he was unaware of the conference even taking place. So I would like to ask once again this Government as to how much Manitoba money went down to Toronto to sponsor this conference and effectively pursuing this particular conference without anyone even being afforded any understanding of this conference and what it is all about. Mr.

Struthers: I will say it again to the Member for Portage that yesterday when he asked me if money from our Conservation budget was going toward this conference, I told him, "No, the money was not coming from my budget." Mr. Faurschou: Mr. Speaker, one has to appreciate that Manitoba is the only province outside of Ontario sponsoring this conference. It is a federal initiative. The Finance Minister has said time and time again that he has had to make tough choices because of the scarcity of resources. This conference is lacking any substance of science or technology.

Why is the Minister of Science and Technology (Mr. Sale) on a junket down

1924 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 to Toronto as well as taking a basketful of money from Manitoba as a sponsor? How much money? Mr. Struthers: I will tell the Member for Portage la Prairie again. When he approached me and asked me about the amount of money that I was spending from my budget on this particular conference, I assured him that there was no money coming from my budget for that purpose. Killarney Lake Management Plan Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Lake Winnipeg is in bad shape.

But last summer Killarney Lake was much worse, so much worse that tourists were driven away because those who tried to swim in the lake emerged green like leprechauns. On April 21, the Minister of Water Stewardship was gung-ho to help people in Killarney. He even promised to visit Killarney in person. Instead, the minister sent a civil servant who met last Friday with a group of distinguished Killarney citizens. This was reported to the council yesterday.

Essentially the message conveyed by the minister's civil servant was that the department has no money, has not enough people and can provide no help to the people of Killarney. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- hip): Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Liberal Party had cared to talk to the MLA for the area, in addition to myself, he would find that in fact the MLA for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) raised this matter with me. In fact, I have co-ordinated a meeting with the representatives in that area.

The reason I asked the staff to go out was because I thought it was important for them to discuss first-hand with the group as well. I want to thank the Member for Turtle Mountain for raising that issue with me privately and co-ordinating the meeting. Mr. Gerrard: As we all know, one of the major problems with algal blooms results from increased phosphorus concentration in the lakes and rivers, which has been very well documented. This is a problem in Killarney Lake as it is in Lake Winnipeg.

Killarney Lake and the Long River watershed are about 236 square kilometres and would be ideal as a model program to look at where the origin of the phosphorus is. I would ask the Minister of Water Stewardship whether he would consider making Killarney Lake and Long River a model watershed program to improve the situation for people in Killarney. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, certainly I would not be meeting and in fact the staff would not be meeting if we were not open to discussion with residents in Killarney.

Indeed, at the risk of making it look like there was some unholy political alliance going on here, I do credit the Member for Turtle Mountain for having raised this. I want to stress that when we talk about Lake Winnipeg, I have always said that Lake Winnipeg has its unique challenges. So does Killarney in terms of the lakes in that area, so does Lake Dauphin, Lake of the Prairies, lakes in northern Manitoba. That is why we are bringing in The Water Protection Act.

I urge the member opposite, to expedite its passage through this Legislature because it will make a difference for all Manitobans, including in south- west Manitoba. Our program is for all Manitobans. Immigration Apprenticeship Program Foreign Credentials Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour. The issue of recognizing foreign credenti als affects many, yet the Government seems to be doing little, if anything, on this issue. I have worked with federal minister Rey Pagtakhan on this issue, Mr. Speaker.

We recognize that the Province needs to establish an apprenticeship program that would help immigrants prepare for the eventual accreditation of their foreign-obtained credentials in their trade or profession. My question to the Government is: Will the Government of Mani- toba commit to such a program? Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I always appreciate a question from the MLA for I nkster in regard to our immigration program here in Manitoba. Our qualifications recognition strategy that has been

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1925 developed by the members of the Immigration branch is probably the most responsible and furthest along of any jurisdiction in Canada. Qualifications recognition is very difficult. We have to work with the regulating bodies, we have to work with the edu- cational institutions. It is everyone's responsibility to work on this. We have a qualifications recognition document. I know the member is a rookie MLA, Mr. Speaker.

Perhaps he has not seen that qualifications recognition document, but we would love to get it to him so that he could understand how we are further along than any other jurisdiction in Canada. Housing Program Government Initiatives Mr. Doug Marti ndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, in 1993 the federal government cancelled the funding for social housing and the provincial Conservative government in Manitoba followed suit immediately, with the result that there was no non-profit or affordable housing built in Manitoba between '93 and '99.

Since 1999, since forming government, the other partners have come back to the table. We are pleased that we are working in a co-operative arrangement with the City of Winnipeg and the federal govern- ment on many new initiatives. I was pleased to take

part in an announcement for Neeginan, a shelter for the homeless on Main Street yesterday. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Family Services and Housing update the House on what initiatives we are taking to address the issue of affordable housing in Manitoba? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, as mentioned by the member, 1999 saw sunshine shining on the affordable housing initiatives here in this province. Our province led leadership across the nation which resulted in the affordable housing agreement.

Through this agreement we were able to put together the Winnipeg Housing and Homelessness Initiative, which is the tripartite agreement referred to. I must say we are the shining example across Canada, Mr. Speaker. See, the sun is coming through now. As a result, we have seen over 2200 new housing units built, rehabilitated or renovated. We work in partnership with community groups and the private sector. Inner city property values in the city of Winnipeg have risen by as much as 60 percent in certain neighbourhoods.

I would like to inform the House that affordable housing is good for our chil- dren, good for our families, good for our economy and good for our province. Conference of the Reducers Sponsorship Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): The Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers) had great difficulty answering the last set of questions that was posed to him. I am wondering if the Minister of Finance could stand up and indicate to us whether there was Treasury Board approval and for how much for the conference that the Minister of Science and Technology (Mr. Sale) is attending. * (14:30) Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for the Government of Manitoba to be invited to a national conference in Toronto to talk about our Kyoto strategy on how we have moved in a practical and effective way to reduce greenhouse gases in this province. I think all the other provinces in this country will benefit by the contribution the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology will make at that conference. Conference of the Reducers Sponsorship Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr.

Speaker, the Conference of the Reducers, which features Paul Martin and Tony Blair, is being sponsored and financed by Ottawa, the provinces of Ontario and Manitoba, the City of Toronto and the David Suzuki Foundation. If they are sponsoring it, it has to be costing some sort of money. We are asking the Finance Minister: How much is it costing the taxpayers of Manitoba to be the sponsor, not the participant but the sponsor, of this conference? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I thank the member for that question.

As I said, Manitoba Hydro and the Government of Manitoba have one of the most proactive strategies in this country on the Kyoto accord, and that is one of the reasons they were invited to this conference.

1926 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 Their sponsorship contribution from Energy, Science and Technology is $5,000, Mr. Speaker. The sponsorship contribution from Manitoba Hydro is $5,000, and all of Canada will know what a pro- gressive strategy we have in this province. Drinking Water Safety Act Regulations Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, after more than tw o years of press release after press release, The Drinking Water Safety Act still has no regulations. This Government continues to think that safe drinking water comes in the form of press releases.

Maybe they are thinking that the paper on the press release can be used as a filter. Thousands of Manitobans in 35 communities currently live every day with boiled-water orders or advisories. How can this Government be trusted when the very Budget that they passed cuts one-half-a-million dollars from the department which monitors and maintains water quality in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Stewardship): Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite should look at that same budget that he is talking about, note that there is $1.6 million for drinking water safety, and that includes 12 new drinking water safety officers, none of which existed when the Conservatives were in office. I would advise, before the member talks about putting out press releases, he put out a press release talking about those advisories.

What he neglected to mention is that many of the communities that are listed there have already taken action, in many cases supported by the federal and provincial governments through infrastructure, and put in municipal water treatment plants. Those warnings remain on the record in case people are not accessed to the system. We are making progress and we are putting money, officers and staff where it counts, protecting our drinking water in this province. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has xpired. e MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Farm Family of the Year Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): I would like to put a few words on the record ab out a fine farm family from my constituency, Nick and Dorothy Heide. The Heides were named the 2004 Farm Family of the Year by the Red River Exhibition Association. As senior partners in Hespler Enterprises, a 4700-acre farming operation near Winkler, the Heides grow a variety of crops including corn, wheat, beans and potatoes, in addition to running an 1800-head feedlot and a potato storage and packing facility. In partnership with their son Richard and son-in-law Wayne, this large operation continues to run as a family farm.

Nick Heide started farming in 1966 when he purchased his own land and planted his first crop. In the early 1970s, Mr. Speaker, he joined with the Suderman brothers in their farm operation and incorporated as a business in 1971. In 1996, Nick Heide found himself the only remaining partner of the operation and shorty thereafter invited his chil- dren and their families to join the business. The Heides are not only experts in agriculture but they have also been involved in community projects.

Nick served fo r nearly 20 years with Keystone Agriculture Producers and Dorothy is the current president of th e Winkler-Plum Coulee and district United Way. Agriculture has always been an important part of Manitoba's history, economy and way of life. I would like to extend my heartfelt appreciation to all farmers in this province who, on a daily basis, continue to provide Manitobans with locally grown nutritious products. It is wonderful to see a family such as the Heides remain committed to the family farm.

On behalf of this Assembly, I would like to congratulate Nick and Dorothy Heide and their children Wayne and Joanne Derksen and Richard and Amanda Heide on their success as the 2004 Family Farm of the Year. Thank you. Flin Flon Army Cadet Corps Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): This year marks the 125th anniversary of the Army Cadet movement in Canada. Cadets across Canada will be wearing a special anniversary pin on their jackets, as well as participating in a number of commemorative acti- vities. The 2328 Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps based in Flin Flon is marking this occasion. As a

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1927 commemorative project, the Flin Flon Cadets are placing Canadian flags at the gravesites of Flin Flon area veterans. Our thanks, Mr. Speaker, to Bev Desjarlais, MP for Churchill, for contributing the flags for this important commemoration. This flag project is a gesture of respect and thanks to the indi- iduals who made many sacrifices for our freedom and democracy. Flin Flon's 2328 Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps was first formed in November of 1948.

In November of 1956, the Cadet Corps relocated to the new Flin Flon Armoury until the closure of the armoury in 1995. In the summer of 1996, the Corps relocated to its present facilities at 5 Timber Lake in the Flin Flon Industrial Park. The Corps celebrated its 50th anniversary on March 20, 1999, with a parade at 5 Timber Lane and a banquet at the Legion Hall. I was very glad to be able to attend that historic occasion and extend my congratulations on the achievement and longevity of the Corps. The Corps carries on its program today with emphasis on citizenship, leadership and physical fitness, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the current Commanding Officer, Captain Bill McLean, Peter Popp and Morley Naylor from the Cadet league and other military and civilian staff, volunteers and sponsoring organizations for their commitment to our young people. I would like to recognize the members of the 2328 Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps as they celebrate this landmark anniversary. The Cadet Corps continues to provide a shining example of good citizenship to our community. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Water-ski Champion Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Speaker, today I rise in the House to pay tribute to a young Manitoban who has captured not only the gold, but also the silver medal in the water-ski Pan-American tournament that was held in Peru. This young man is from Russell, Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. His name is Kole Magnowski and he participated in the under-21 age group in the Pan-Am water-ski competitions held in Peru just recently.

The interesting thing about this young man is that he was not even supposed to be a member of the team but, as an alternate, was phoned a few weeks prior to the competition and then scurried off to Florida to do some quick training, and then off to Peru to the competition. From time to time, we acknowledge all of our gold medal winners in various national and inter- national competitions.

It is my pleasure today to acknowledge this young Manitoban who represented not only our province, but, indeed, our country in this Pan-American tournament that was held in Peru, and received for Canada , for Manitoba and for himself a gold medal in the water-ski jump compe- tition and a silver medal in the slalom event. This, indeed, Mr. Speaker, is a prestigious memento for an individual from our province, who represented not only Manitoba but Canada at this international event.

I want members of this House to join me today in congratulating Kole Magnowski for his excellent performance at the Pan-Am tournament in Peru. Women of Distinction Awards Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): The YM-YWCA of Winnipeg recently presen ted its 2004 Women of Distinction Awards at the Winnipeg Convention Centre last week. I am very pleased that there were two award winners from Wolseley, Loa Henry and Sarah Amyot. My dear friend and colleague, Loa Henry, was awarded in the category of Art, Culture and Heritage.

She is a former school teacher, and has been a role model in Wolseley through her work in music, drama and theatre. For the past 25 years, Mr. Speaker, Loa has been a performer and artistic director with the Nellie McClung Theatre Centre, Canada's oldest feminist theatre group. Loa is also a founding member of the Winnipeg Labour Choir and has been its director for the past eight years. The choir's music tells the stories of people's struggles to build a just and equitable society.

In her work with both Nellie McClung Theatre and the Winnipeg La bour Choir, Loa brings theatre to life as a political tool to raise awareness of important contemporary issues. * (14:40) Mr. Speaker, this year's Young Woman of Distinction award winner is Sarah Amyot. Sarah is an honours student at the University of Winnipeg Women's Studies department. She is a well-known

1928 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 women's activist and founding member of New WAVES, which stands for Women Acting Against Violence and for Equal Status. Sarah is well known to the community through her work with CKUW radio where she is writer and co-host of "Say it Sista," a program that di scusses women's status, rights and equality issues. I had the pleasure of meeting Sarah recently and congratulate her on her recent election as president of the University of Winnipeg Students' Association. She is also one of the organizers of the Sugar and Splice film festival coming up at Cinematheque. Mr.

Speaker, I am very honoured to recognize these two outstanding women who have enriched the Winnipeg community and made it a better place to live. Their hard work, leadership, compassion and dedication are an inspiration for all of us to pursue ideals in our community and in our lives. Thank you very much. Garry Morris Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today to acquaint all honourable members of the Assembly with an outstanding constituent from Virden, Garry Morris. Mr.

Morris has just recen tly received the 2004 Premier's Volunteer Service Award for countless hours of hard effort, helping him achieve top recognition in the individual category. Garry has spent a lifetime of dedicated service in his community of Virden. His short list of volunteer activities includes being a Santa Claus for 31 years; involvement with the Virden Oil Kings hockey team for 17 years; a volunteer firefighter for 4; working on the VCAC board for three years; setting up the Santa's Tears of Hope organization and daily visits to the Westman Nursing Home.

Last year Garry walked the extra mile and put together the Santa's Tears of Hope Fund which offers financial support to the families of sick children who are seriously ill or in hospital. The fund raises money through raffles and donations from the public. Gary's goal for the Tears of Hope Fund is to turn it into a year-round fund. When he is not working as a Manitoba Hydro field worker, Gary visits children in hospitals, seniors in nursing homes and those who would otherwise not receive visits at all.

Gary has spent Christmas in the hospital, bringing hope for those living with terminal illness, and also visits the residents of the Westman Nursing Home on a daily basis. I am sure that the residents at the home greatly appreciate and eagerly anticipate his daily visits. In Gary's case, action speaks louder than words and his dedication to others is readily observed through his actions. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate Garry Morris on his well-deserved Premier's Volunteer Service award. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Justice will meet on Tuesday, May 18, at 10 a.m., to consider Bill 11, The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment Act (Protection of Crown Assets); Bill 15, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Police Powers); Bill 16, MPI (Denial of Benefits); Bill 41, The Profits of Criminal Notoriety. Mr.

Speaker: It has been announced the Standing Committee on Justice will meet on Tuesday, May 18, 2004, at 10 a.m. to consider Bill 11, The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporat ion Amendment Act (Pro- tection of Crown Assets); Bill 15, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Police Powers Respecting Unsafe Drivers and Misc ellaneous Amendments); Bill 16, The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment Act (Denial of Benefits for Offenders); Bill 41, The Profits of Criminal Notoriety Act. Mr. Mackintosh: Would you please call Supply, Mr. Speaker? Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 23(5), the House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION, CITIZENSHIP AND YOUTH * (14:50) Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1929

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Education, Citizen- ship and Youth. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will follow in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Firstly, I would like to read into the record some of the information regarding portables in the province.

The member from South- dale had been in on the Estimates process and had asked some very detailed or specific questions about the number of portables that we use in Manitoba. I took that question as notice, and I would like to enter those statistics into the record if I may. Mr. Chairperson, the total number of portables in use in Manitoba right now is 241 units, of which 91 units or 38 percent are found in the urban centres, 180 units or 62 percent are found in the rural centres.

School division requests for portable units over the past four years ranged from 23 requests in 2004- 2005 to about 40 requests in 2002-2003. Between 2001-2002 and 2003-2004 the following number of units was approved: '01-02, 13 rural, 9 urban; '02-03, 20 rural, 8 urban; '03-04, 21 rural, 2 urban; '04-05, the requests are currently being assessed by the Public Schools Finance Board. So, for the record, for th e benefit of the member from Southdale, that was taken on notice last Friday. Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I would start to ask the minister for a brief statement of his policy with regard to mandatory physical education from K to Senior 4. Mr. Bjornson: What I can tell the honourable member, Mr. Chair, is prescribed time allotments that we currently have for physical education for Grades 1-3 minutes per 6-day cycle is 180 minutes per day. This breaks down to 30 minutes, and it accounts for 10 percent of the instructional day. For Grades 4-6, minutes per cycl e of the six-day cycle is once again 180 minutes, 30 minutes per day, 10 percent of the instructional day.

Grades 7 and 8, 180 minutes in a 6-day cycle, 30 minutes per day, 9.09 percent of the instructional time. The breakdown for Senior 1 through 4 physical education and health education is one compulsory credit at Senior 1 level. Physical education and he alth education are com- pulsory at Senior 2 level. Mr. Gerrard: My second question, Mr. Chair, derives from a conversation that I had recently with a teacher who is doing adult education and indicated his great trouble in getting support for teaching a power mechanics course in adult ed.

Apparently, there was lots of support for all sorts of other things, but none for this area. Maybe the minister would comment on his approach here. Mr. Bjornson: That question should be deferred to the Minister for Advanced Education and Training (Ms. McGifford). That is not my purview. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Chairperson, I know that the minister has engaged in the past in some interesting approaches to teaching students history, and I would ask the minister his views on the teaching of Manitoba history in our schools, to what extent the minister sees this as a pr iority, and whether he is going to increase the extent to which we have teaching of Manitoba history in our schools. Mr. Bjornson: Thank you for the question. Certainly, Mr.

Chairperson, history is a personal passion of mine, and in 13 years in the classroom, the bulk of those years were spent teaching history, Canadian history, world history and a variety of other social studies classes. Actually, as a teacher, I was also part of the curriculum development and resource review committees that were looking at social studies development here in Manitoba. The document for the senior social studies is enroute. There is still some work to be done writing the docu- ment for Canadian history at the Senior 3 level. However, Mr.

Chairperson, it has been a very important undertaking by the department to engage teachers in the field in this dialogue on Canadian history and Canadian history content throughout the social studies curriculum. There is a common thread of citizenship as one of the new elements that we have incorporated into the history curriculum.

There are also, for the first time, extensive consultations with many of the ethnocultural groups in Manitoba, perhaps the first time in Manitoba and perhaps the first time in Canada, arguably the first time in North America, that so many ethnocultural groups have been involved in this dialogue around the develop- ment of social studies curriculum. Mr. Chair, there are certainly a lot of other organizations that have been involved in promoting Canadian history that continue to do so, whether it is

1930 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 the historical foundation, Canada's National History Society, or the Manitoba Historical Society. There are a number of groups that are involved in that and provide a variety of resources and supports to teach- ers to make their instruction more meaningful. Yes, it a very important part of what we do. Mr. Chairperson, I know there was a movement at one time to take history off the books as a compulsory course in the middle of the 1990s. I am definitely pleased to say that it is something that we value as a government.

We will continue to work towards making a meaningful social studies curricu- lum that can identify with local history. My personal philosophy in the instruction of history had involved engaging students at the local level. That would make national and international stories more mean- ingful. Certainly, there are a lot of opportunities for teachers to do that, given the direction that the curriculum is going. The curriculum continues to provide a focus on local history and the importance thereof. * (15:00) Mr.

Gerrard: There are a couple of bills which may result in changing school practices, Bills 13 and 30, as examples, one on what is appropriate education for those with special needs, the other on what is an appropriate approach to safe schools. If these bills pass, I would like to get the minister's approach to consultation with regard to regulations and to what extent it may be possible for those who have a special interest in this one or the other area to provide input into the process. Mr.

Bjornson: With regard to Bill 13, the groups that we have consulted with on Bill 13 to this point, I am pleased to put them on the record. Mr.

Chair- person, we have had consultation with the Associa- tion for Community Living, Manitoba Association of Parent Councils, The Teachers' Society, Manitoba Association of School Trus tees, Manitoba Associ- ation of School Superintendents, Manitoba School Counsellors' Association, Manitoba Association of Resource Teachers, the Coalition for Children, the Manitoba Council for Exceptional Children, the Student Services Administrators Association of Man- itoba, the Council of School Leaders, Manitoba Health, Healthy Child Manitoba, Children's Special Services, the Aboriginal Education Directorate.

Our province's universities and parent advocates and other interested parties have all been part of the array of presenters at the committee level, Mr. Chair. So we have been engaged in consultation with a number of groups and have committed to continue to consult with the groups around the development of regulations on Bill 13. Mr. Gerrard: So, specifically, if individuals or groups have input that they would like to provide, what would be the approach? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, our approach will include consultation with the major stakeholder groups once again around the development of the regulations.

Regional consultations is the second step on Bill 13 regulations and facilitating meetings to follow up with our stakeholders. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Chair, I have had conversations with individuals in the area of autism, Asperger's syndrome, epilepsy, a variety of groups who have experience from working with special needs and parents and so on. Can the minister provide some specifics about what would be the best way for them to provide input? When and where are these meetings going to be? How do people find out about them? Are they closed m eetings? Are they open meetings?

If they are open, there should be some notice. Mr. Bjornson: As soon as Bill 13 is passed, Mr. Chairperson, then we will make public the process as far as the development of regulations and what op- portunities stakeholders and interested parties would have in making presentations to development of regulations. Once the bill has passed, then that is the process that we are engaged in at this point. It will be made public when people would have an opportunity to participate. Mr. Gerrard: Where will it be made public? There are different ways. People would like to know where to look and find out. Mr.

Bjornson: Once the bill is passed, Mr. Chair, then we will be sending out letters to all the key stakeholder groups, who obviously network with other organizations that would be engaged in this process. We will also have it up on our Web site and other means of communication to make sure that people are aware of the consultation process. Mr. Gerrard: Will other MLAs, the other caucuses be informed?

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1931 Mr. Bjornson: Yes, they will. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Chair, can the minister give a brief description of his approach and policy with respect to arts and music in the schools? Mr. Bjornson: I personally value the arts in the school. In fact, I was at a conference this morning bringing greetings from the Province, and the focus was on arts education. There was certainly a lot of literature that supports the value of an arts program in the schools.

Music instruction, for example, there is a strong correlation betw een students succeeding in music and their abilities in math and social skills and a variety of other team-task oriented benefits that they derive from participating in music programs. That was part of the rationale, my own personal value that I put on music education in the school, to promote Celebrating Music in Manitoba Schools Month through a proclamation on April 5 of this year, at which time we hosted a number of wonderful bands and choral groups here in the Legislature.

As well, I attended a couple of functions in a couple of schools to hear band recitals. The arts education has the same value to me, personally, and I began by taking down the art in my office. All the government art is out of my office, and I proudly display the work of Manitoba students, and every three months we rotate that art. We made an election commitment to put $1 million into arts education to improve arts education, Mr. Chairperson. The first step there is $100,000 that has been designated to develop new curriculum documents around arts education initiatives.

The next phases of the project will be rolled out within the term and will create a new arts and music after school program; establish youth awards in the performing arts; provide money to schools to bring in visiting artists or create an arts-in-residence program; develop career mentorship program in the arts; and provide more professional development for arts teachers, so it is a very exciting initiative. Mr. Gerrard: The minister spoke of the $1 million commitment. Is that over th e four- or five-year term of the Government, and how will it break down?

Can the minister tell us how it will be provided and what sort of options? Mr. Bjornson: Well, as I said, Mr. Chairperson, the first commitment this year is to development of the curriculum documents, and that budget is $100,000 this year. The remaining $900,000 commitment will be rolled out. That is yet to be determined exactly how, but it will be rolled out over the next couple of years to engage in these programs that I have mentioned in my previous answer. Mr. Gerrard: I am just wondering whether the minister could give more details of how he envisions this.

Was this an opportunity for selected schools, for schools all over the province, and what is the goal of the $1-million investment overall? Mr. Bjornson: Well, Mr. Chair, the goal is to enhance the existing programs. One thing I was really empowered by was meeting with Professor Dale Lonis. He is the Dean of the Faculty of Music at the University of Manitoba, and he told me that he sought out the School of Music here at the University of Manitoba because of the reputation that this province has.

The province, he said, in his opinion, is head and shoulders above many other jurisdictions in North America with respect to what we are doing with music, as one example. He has assured me that, for example, our Orff Program is probably the best Orff Program in North America, and once I found out what Orff was, I was even more impressed. The dean has spoken very favourably of what we are doing here in Manitoba schools and just the music, as an example, as I said, but, certainly, I have seen it on the walls in the schools of Manitoba, the art work that students pr oduce.

Many students are allowed to express themselves through art in ways that you do not ordinarily get, that opportunity to express yourself in a classroom setting, in an insti- tutional setting as such, so it is a very important part of what we do. We are doing great work. Our teachers are doing great work in the arts and the $1 million that we are going to commit to this initiative will provide more resources, more profile and more opportunities for students to explore arts in our schools. Mr.

Gerrard: I am aware of schoo ls where students have not had opportunities to participate in theatre or arts or other programs, Mr. Chair. I would just ask the minister, where you have such schools, what can they do to try to move it forward so that they would be ready to have such programs available when this funding becomes available to apply for. * (15:10)

1932 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, the foru m that I attended this morning, part of that forum was to launch–well, actually, I had seen the launch of this video at the Manitoba Association of Parent Councils on Friday night and, again, the arts forum this morning launched a video that talked about–I am sorry, the title is Learning for Life , I believe, and it speaks to the value of arts education in our schools. In fact, we have distributed a video to all 707 of our public schools. This speaks to the value of the arts program.

Unfortunately, not all schools can offer arts as that is a local decision around some of the resources that are available or the instructors that are available that can bring that skill set necessary to provide a good arts program to the school. So that is one of the realities that some of the schools face, that the staffing issues would preclude them from offering those courses. However, I know there are a lot of schools that work with their communities to address some of these issues.

Of course, we have the Artists in the Schools Program where artists are funded to come into the school and work very intensely with classes over the period of a week or 10 days, whatever their program might be, to offer students this opportunity. So there are a number of different initiatives that are currently underway. The $1 million that we are putting into the program will help build that profile and hopefully produce more opportunities for our students. Mr. Gerrard: One of the important issues of today is not just Internet access but broadband access. You talked about, I think it was 707 schools.

How many of those have broadband access to the Internet? Mr. Bjornson: We will have to take that as notice. I do not have the exact number of schools that currently have Internet access. Mr. Gerrard: I thank the minister. I look forward to that information being provided, and I am going to pass to my colleague the MLA for Inkster. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I actually have a number of questions that I would like to ask. The first one is, given the minister's experience prior to getting elected, I am interested in knowing what he feels is an appropriate class size. Mr.

Bjornson: In my career I have seen the gamut, anywhere from 15 to 46, but I really cannot say what an appropriate class size would be. I know that it depends on how the courses are resourced and other factors that might weigh into the decision to offer the course or not to offer the course. So I guess the appropriate class size would also depend on the setting in which the class is being taught. Mr. Lamoureux: I would acknowledge that the make-up of the actual classroom does have an impact. Having said that, would the Minister of Education believe that 46 is an excessive number of students in a classroom? Mr.

Bjornson: Well, 46. Certainly, Mr. Chair- person, that makes it difficult to manage, but, you know, certainly there are so me other factors that we would have to consider with respect to class size. The ratios obviously for kindergarten to Grade 4 versus senior level of instruction, there is wiggle room perhaps in terms of the number of students that you can have in your classroom and again a number of different factors that would contribute to what would make that class size work. Mr. Lamoureux: Okay. What we can do is narrow down some of the factors. Let us just say it is a Grade 6 class.

What would be a number in terms of a class size that this minister would be quite upset to hear about? I do not have an example; I am not trying to bait the minister. I am just trying to get an understanding of what he believes would be an unacceptable number for an average class in Grade 6. Mr. Bjornson: Actually, having never taught Grade 6, it would be difficult to answer what would be a manageable class size. I taught Grade 8. It is really difficult to determine at this time.

I know that we in Manitoba have a pretty good teacher-to-student ratio, but the class sizes will vary, especially when you get to senior years, depending on the availability of courses and things of that nature. There is a lot of flexibility around class size. The other day I was asked about our teacher ratio and for every currently regular instruction, 18.1 students per teacher. That breaks down to 14.7 students per educator, which would include principals and other individuals who have teacher certificates who work in the school setting. Mr.

Lamoureux: In an NDP and opposition dream world, you might get a 14-to-1 average throughout the Manitoba public educational system. I do not believe that to be the case, and I do not believe the minister believes that to be the case. In terms of the

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1933 maximum number, because what we are really talking about is the classroom teacher, in Grade 8 whether it is from a teacher's perspective or from a parent perspective, what do you feel is too many kids in one class? I do not want the example of, well there might be special needs in some classes and so forth. The principal has the discretion to be able to try to make sure that there are some appropriate resources put into each of the classrooms. I acknowledge that the make-up of the student body in that classroom does have an impact.

What I am trying to get from the minister is a specific, like what number he feels as Minister of Education is inappropriate in terms of the class size. Mr. Bjornson: Again, it is very difficult to pick a number. There are so many factors that contribute to this, the composition, actually some of the physical limitations that might be in the structure of the building itself. There are ju st far too many factors when you consider 707 public schools to try and pick one number that would work. It would be very difficult to do so. Certainly, Mr.

Chair, there are issues around enrolment fluctuations and things of that nature so it would be very difficult to determine a specific number in this question. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I would suggest to you that the minister is actually being quite modest given his experience and expertise in edu- cation. I did not realize it was Grade 8. Grade 8 is wonderful. My daughter is going to be going into Grade 8 next year. We look forward to it. I would suggest to you that the Minister of Education does have a number.

I suspect that the Minister of Education, prior to even being elected as an MLA, had a very good idea in terms of what the number is. Maybe it is the party constraints or being in Cabinet that he does not want to share that number. The member is right, I do speculate at times because sometimes you are forced to speculate when the Government does not n ecessarily want to share with you what it is that they are actually believing. When you throw numbers, Mr. Chairperson, it could come back at you, but it is a question of government accountability .

I think Manitobans, teachers, his peers, his former peers and parents have a right to know in terms of what is an acceptable number. The minister started off by saying, "Well, it ranges between 15 and 46." That is quite the range. I would think that Manitobans are entitled to a little bit more frankness of an answer in regard to that particular question. Having said that, if the minister wants to answer that, he can. The next area I want to go on to is physical education, but I will pause to see if he wanted to respond to that. * (15:20) Mr.

Bjornson: When I had a class of 15, that was an acceptable number because of the social dynamics of the class, the academic dynamics of the class, the subject matter that I was teaching. That was an acceptable number. When I had a class of 46, as uncomfortable as it may have been because of the number of bodies in the classroom, the content was a psychology class, a very popular course. We had 46 textbooks. We were able to make it work in terms of resourcing it, and I was very comfortable teaching 46 students. Again, you are talking about a very specific number.

You cannot really determine a specific number given all the dynamics that school divisions, principals and teachers face with respect to what they would like to offer their students, what courses they could offer them, how they could resource those courses, what other supports the teachers would need to make those resources work, if there are any mentioned earlier, special needs students in the class and what that means if we need teacher assistance in the classroom as well. There are far too many variables to narrow this down to one specific number. Mr.

Lamoureux: There are schools that are put up through public finance board, and my understanding is today we tend to favour building a core for a school and then, as it expands, add portables to the schools. This way once the school population starts to go down you can take away the portables and still maintain the building itself. Is that a fair assessment of what the policy currently is for construction of public schools? Mr. Bjornson: The policy of the PSFB is designed to reflect fluctuating enrolments. Mr. Lamoureux: When you construct, let us say, a gymnasium, Mr. Chair, and I will talk about two

1934 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 schools in specific that I represent, Stanley Knowles and Meadows West. Both of them have a number of portables that are attached to them. I am wondering if you can give an in dication, does the PSFB establish what they believe a maximum number of students could be in a fac ility? For example, can you tell me what is the maximum number of students that Stanley Knowles and Meadows West can actually take? Mr. Bjornson: We do not have a maximum number that would be specific to those schools. Those decisions are made at the local level with the school board. Mr.

Lamoureux: So the PSFB would not be required to know that information? Mr. Bjornson: The way it works with respect to individual school divisions is they submit their five- year capital plans based on situations where they might recognize a need in schools where there has been growth consistently or they submit those capital plans requesting portables to address issues of fluctuating enrolments. Whether or not the PSFB had that information, it is still incumbent on the school division to come forward with their five-year capital plans and try to address their needs as far as space is concerned. Mr.

Lamoureux: I wonder, Mr. Chairperson, if the minister could just comment on a specific example, a hypothetical example. If you build a school to accommodate, let us say, 500 students, that means that includes the gymnasium space, the width of the hallways and so forth. Then five or six years later the school population is at 1500, but you have accom- plished that because you have added numerous portables. Would the minister agree that the core of the school, the gymnasium and the hallways might not necessarily be able to accommodate the edu- cational needs of that sort of enrolment that maybe was not expected?

Mr. Bjornson: Yes, I would agree. That is why we have moved ahead with projects such as a new school in Winkler, where I believe there were about 500 students that were actually housed in the portables in that existing school. That is why we are moving ahead with a new school there. That is why we built a new school in Mitchell, just outside of Steinbach, a beautiful school. It is built such that it could very easily be added on in the event that the population continues to grow, and all patterns are pointing to continued growth in that area. Mr.

Chairperson, that is why we are building a new school in East Selkirk and Happy Thought. We do value the work that the school boards do with respect to identifying their needs and coming up with five-year capital plans. Each board will submit those, I believe, by the end of May. Some of the five-year capital plans have already been submitted. Public Schools Finance Board is taking a look at the priorities province-wide. We are builders. We have invested $288 million in the last five years in Public Schools Finance Board projects.

That includes eight new schools, eleven replacement schools, over thirty major renovations, gymnasiums, science labs, things of that nature. A total of over six hundred projects will have been completed in our five-year term in addressing structural needs for our schools. So that is part of the long range plan, part of the five-year capital plan, that school divisions bring to the Public Schools Finance Board for their consideration. Mr.

Lamoureux: Given the minister's comments, I am wondering if he would acknowledge, then, that the Leader of the Liberal Party was asking about physical education, and I believe that the number is 180 minutes in a six-day cycle. I am wondering if the minister feels that there are schools that are in a situation where, because of the size of the school, they are not able to provide physical activity for children because the gym was just not built to accommodate the number of students.

So, even though the minister says 180 minutes, they are not getting 180 minutes of actual physical activity, especially when the weather is not appropriate, in other words, when you cannot take the children outside, that they have to be kept in the schools. Is the minister aware of situations of that nature? * (15:30) Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, I am aware of the fact that there are some fluctuations in the amount of time that is allocated for physical education. The increase or decrease in the time allotments are, actually, the local decisions. With respect to facilities, Mr.

Chair, I know the Free Press reported that there was a school that had

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1935 deficiencies as far as a gymnasium was concerned, but it was also mentioned that the school was 73 years old. Obviously, we have different criteria around appropriate facilities. Being 73 years old is the reason why there is not an appropriate facility there. It is a dated facility. There are a number of initiatives, though, that school divisions seek out with local recreation authorities or local rec commissions on shared ser- vices agreements so that they can optimize phys ed time.

I know, in my own experience in Gimli, there was a very good relationship with the Gimli recre- ation authority where students were skating and curling and taking advantage of a wonderful facility just a short walk away from the school. There are other creative ways of providing meaningful physical education for students in the absence of access to the gymnasium.

Usually those events were planned around the drama productions where the gym would be taken over by the drama cast and crew for a couple of weeks, so the phys ed department looked at other ways of delivering meaningful opportunities and sought that through shared service agreements. Mr. Chairperson, these ar e things that are quite common throughout the province. There are a number of shared service agreements between school divisions and local recreation authorities to provide students with those opportunities. Again, the fluctuation for time allotted for phys ed is really a local decision. Mr.

Lamoureux: I pick up on the point of local decision. The Government must have, in particular the Ministry of Education must have, a sense, in terms of what they believe would be an unacceptable amount of time, in terms of actual physical activity in any given six-day cycle for a student. Could the minister indicate what he believes that time would be? Mr. Bjornson: I think the recommended time that we currently have is sufficient, Mr. Chair, but, again, it is a recommended time. It is the local decisions that would indicate whether there is an increase or decrease in the time allotments.

The recommended time that we have provided is sufficient right now. We are looking at best practices and things of that nature and we are always looking to improve. That is part of the ministry, we are always looking to improve. There could be room for improvement and that is why we are going to be taking a look at these things. Mr. Lamoureux: The recommended time the minister is referring to is that 180 minutes of phys- ical activity through that six-day cycle and if that is not happening, I trust that the minister would be interested in hearing from us if we hear of a time that is less than that.

Safe assumption? Mr. Bjornson: We do know that there are schools that are not offering the recommended amount of time, but we also know that there are schools that are offering more. I know in my own experience in Gimli High School, though it was not compulsory in Senior 3 for physical education, that our admin- istrators saw value in having more time allotted for Senior 3 and, as such, there are courses offered in phys ed for Senior 3. We know that there are some jurisdictions that are offering less and some that are offering more. We are hoping that schools would see fit to adopt the recommended guidelines. Mr.

Lamoureux: So, if a local school or a division indicates, "Well, we are only going to have 90 minutes." The only response from the minister would be, "Well, we would recommend that you stick with the 180 minutes and be content with the 90 minutes if that is what the local administration determines." Mr. Bjornson: I am not aware of any schools that would be offering only 90 minutes. This, of course, is part of a bigger picture issue that we are looking at. I mean, our new education and health curriculum has been lauded by educators outside of Manitoba as well, that it is a very good document.

As someone who about 75 pounds ago used to play basketball and volleyball in the high school system–I cannot believe I just put that on the record–but having said that, I certainly value the physical education program that we have in Manitoba and the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association and their purview with respect to extracurricular sports. There are a lot of great things that are going on. With respect to the recommended time, it is my hope that schools and school divisions are able to provide at the very least that recommended time. Again, as

1936 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 you said, there are lots of divisions and schools that offer beyond that recommended time. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, the last couple of questions are in regard to a document actually that was tabled from my colleague from Tuxeco which I thought was quite interesting. Mr. Chairperson, it was the minister's Working Group on Education Finance.

When I was sitting back and listening in Question Period, I found it truly amazing that you have the critic for Education being more aware of what is happening than the Minister of Education in terms of having access to infor- mation. Two relatively quick questions on this: Is it the first time the Minister of Education was made aware of any of the content in this report the day that it was actually tabled by the member from Tuxedo, or was he aware of any aspects of what was within this report prior to the member from Tuxedo tabling it? Mr.

Bjornson: Just a quick history lesson, when I was first appointed and briefed on the status of the working group, I was advised that the report would be presented to me by the working group. That was the process that had been agreed to. There had been a status report that had been given to my predecessor. That status report, my staff had advised me that it was a pretty innocuous document, that it was simply providing the terms of reference for the working group, and I was satisfied with that.

When I met with some of the stakeholder groups that had repre- sentation on the working group, I would informally ask if they were aware of the status of the document, and as a rule they were not. I was told that I would receive it soon. That was the process that we agreed to, and that was the process that I respected. I was quite surprised when the draft was available to persons other than myself. I had not seen the document, nor did I have any indication from staff what the recommendations were in that docu- ment. Of course, this is a draft document.

We have also discussed the status in Estimates prior, that the working group will be meeting one more time to sign off on the final draft. I do not recall the date of the meeting. Today or Thursday? May 19 is the meeting where the working group will be signing off on the document. Then it will be sent to the printers to be printed in both official languages. That is why I would not receive the document until the 16th or 23rd of June. These were dates that were selected by the working group to give them sufficient time to have the document printed, but I had not seen the draft until it was tabled in the House.

I was not aware of the content of the document until it was tabled in the House. Mr. Lamoureux: Has the minister actually read the document that the member from Tuxedo tabled? Mr. Bjornson: Well, I have had a cursory look. It is a draft document. I am awaiting the final document. Apparently, the date has been confirmed that I will be receiving it on the 23rd of June. Mr. Lamoureux: I am to take it that the minister then really has not read the document to date, even the draft.

When you say a cursory, a two-minute quick look at each page type of thing is what I think about when you mention "cursory." So it is safe to say that you are not really even aware of what the content of the draft is. * (15:40) Mr. Bjornson: No, it is not safe to say that. I am aware of what the content is. I have looked at the document. I mean, I have had it now for a couple of weeks, but again, it is a draft and I am waiting for the final document. Mr. Lamoureux: Does the minister have a cost of what that working group is going to cost the taxpayers? Mr.

Bjornson: Yes, actually, that request was made earlier on in the Estimates process. We took it as notice and provided those figures the very next day. I believe the total cost was in the neighbourhood of– oh, here we go. For the fiscal year '02-03 it was $11,443.71; '03-04, $10,564.36, for a total of $22,008.07; in '04-05 to date approximately $1,200 expended. Mr. Lamoureux: Finally, Mr. Chair, I take it then the final costs will ring somewhere around $25,000. It is interesting, in my quick perusal of the document, that obviously a substantial amount of thought did go towards the PST.

As the minister himself says, as he has had the chance to at least look through it briefly, I am sure he can get that sort of an assessment also. I would have thought that the Government would have been more open and honest with the working group

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1937 as to what their intentions were in regard to the tax issue of the PST/other taxes, because obviously they spent a great deal of effort on this. We know now that that is all for naught because of what the Government has said on the record. I appreciate the time from the member from Tuxedo and look for- ward to other opportunities to ask questions. Thank you. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): The minister does not want to respond to that? Mr. Bjornson: No, that is fine, go ahead. Mrs.

Stefanson: Well, just to follow along from some of the line of questioning there, so the minister is saying that $25,000 roughly has been spent to date on this working group. There is a draft document that is put together. I believe it has been for the last two to three years that the working group has been working on this. The minister has indicated for us today that he has had a chance to go through the document. Yes, there were some recommendations made in there, but there was also a number of other sort of different models that they were looking at.

They did make a final recommendation, I guess, in the document. Now it was a draft document, but there were a number of different models in this document, and if the minister has had a chance to go through the document, is he considering or would he consider looking at any of those models as a possibility for implementing with respect to funding in Manitoba for education? Mr. Bjornson: Since it is a draft document, and I have yet to receive the final document, I do not think it would be appropriate to comment on the recom- mendations at this time. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, yes, Mr.

Chairperson, he has indicated several times that it is a draft document. Again, the working group has basically cost the taxpayers roughly around $25,000 for the working group to come up with a draft document that they have come up with so far. Certainly, he has said and the Premier has said that he will not continue raising the PST. There has got to be some sort of a direction. Is the minister saying that this working group is essentially going in the wrong direction of where the Government wants to go with respect to funding education in our province? Mr.

Bjornson: I have said repeatedly that we are committed to the process that was agreed to, and that process will involve the delivery of that final document, as I have just found out today, confirmed today for June 23. That is the point where we review the final document and take those recommendations into consideration. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, the minister has seen that clearly there is a direct ion the working group has been taking. They have been working very hard to come up with what they have come up with so far. The minister, the Cabinet and indeed the Premier (Mr.

Doer) are responsible for setting direction with respect to funding education in our province and with respect to education in our province. After having read what the document says, is the minister saying that the working group is essentially going in the wrong direction and they have to go back to square one to come up with some sort of an idea as to how education is going to be funded in our province? Mr. Bjornson: No, I would not say that. What I would say, as I said before, is that there is a process that was identified and agreed to, and I am still waiting for the final draft.

Until such time, I do not think it is appropriate to comment on those recom- mendations. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Chair, I would just like to ask the minister, then, he is essentially saying then if they are not going in the wrong direction, they must be going in the right direction with respect to this document. If they are going in the right direction, which aspects of the document does he feel are going in the right direction with respect to the changing of how education is funded in our province? Mr.

Bjornson: I am not prepared to comment on any of those recommendations until such time that I officially receive the final document and we have had an opportunity to take a look at the final draft of the document. Mrs. Stefanson: I have to say that it is rather unfortunate that the minister who is responsible for directing policy and coming up with new policy initiatives for this Government and with respect to how education is going to be funded in our province refuses to answer questions that are of a general nature, just with respect to general policy directions that the Province might be looking at.

If the minister refuses to answer questions, I guess we will have to move on, because there are a number of other areas

1938 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 that we would like to cover in this Estimates process, and it is just unfortunate that we are not really getting any answers from this minister. I would like to go back, though, to we were questioning on the issues surrounding the Laureate Academy yesterday. We had asked if the minister would consider meeting with all groups that are affected by the situation that has come about with respect to the Laureate Academy and the St. James school division and the DSFM. Mr.

Chairperson, the minister has said he would not take it off the table, in terms of meeting with all groups that are affected an d to try and sit down in one room and try and come up with a resolution to this issue. As a matter of fact, in a letter from the minister to Mr.

Edward Scully, who is the Executive Director of the Laureate Academy, dated May 5, the minister says, and I quote, "Further to your request, we are considering and exploring your request that we endeavour to co-ordinate a non-binding mediated session between the school division and the Laureate Academy.” I am wondering if the minister can indicate when Mr. Scully and, indeed, the parents can expect to hear back from this minister about whether or not this meeting could potentially take place. Mr.

Bjornson: Once again, there are a couple of options that are on the table right now for the Laureate Academy to consider and until such time that they have explored those options, we do not want to pre-empt that process, and we would be looking at having that meeting after these options have been explored. Mrs.

Stefanson: Well, clearly, and again, we have discussed this yesterday, yes, there are a few options on the table, but I think the parents and the Laureate Academy itself have expressed concern about these options, and I believe they have expressed very good reasons for why these options would not be what is in the best interest for the education of these children. Again, Mr. Chair, I caution this minister because his Premier (Mr.

Doer) on CJOB the other day committed to finding a solution to this issue, and I guess I would ask the minister, if his Premier has said that he is committed to finding a solution, why will this minister not do whatever it takes to make sure that a resolution is found in this situation, so that what is in the best interests of the education of these children, and, indeed, all children affected by this, is taken into consideration? * (15:50) Mr.

Bjornson: I believe the phrase "credit where credit is due"comes to mind here because we are taking measures and I have said it before that my jurisdiction under The Education Administration Act with respect to private schools is very clearly defined in terms of having the appropriate curriculum and core curriculum covered in the independent schools, having certified teachers in independent schools and the list goes on and on with regard to my purview there. However, I do not have jurisdiction over infrastructure needs for independent schools.

Having said that, I recognize that this is a very difficult situation that we have before us right now and we are looking at options. The member from Tuxedo is saying that the Laureate Academy parents are saying that these options are not viable. Well, I know that Laureate Academy has not even had an opportunity to tour one of the options that we put on the table or that has been presented to them, pardon me. It is curious why the member from Tuxedo would suggest that the Laureate Academy parents do not think that that is a viable option when they have not had the opportunity to take a look.

We are working towards a solution. The school divisions that have been involved in this negotiation, the DSFM and St. James school division, are looking for ways to provide for the Laureate Academy. In reference to the letter, again, we have met with the Laureate Academy, we have met with the DSFM, we have met with St. James school division, and we will continue to meet with the parties until such time that a solution is found. I am concerned for all students in this situation. We need to find a solution that is the least disruptive for all of the students involved. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr.

Chairperson, I would like to ask the minister if he has had the chance yet–we know he has not bothered to go and tour the Laureate Academy facility where it is currently. Could he inform us today if he has visited Brooklands School,

May 11, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1939 which is one of the options for the Laureate Academy? Mr. Bjornson: No, I have visited 46 schools thus far in my tenure, but I have not had an opportunity to visit Brooklands School. Mrs. Stefanson: Can the minister inform us if he has had a chance to visit the facility that is being looked at in the Louis Riel School Division as to where the Laureate Academy is potentially–it is an option for them to move to? Mr. Bjornson: I have not been inside the building, but I have driven by the building. Mrs.

Stefanson: So the minister is accusing the Laureate Academy of not taking the time to go out and visit these facilities as potential options, yet he has not even bothered to take the time himself to go out and visit these facilities to see if they are options. I would say that is somewhat hypocritical. If these are viable options, I would expect that the minister would at least have first-hand knowledge that these are viable options. Certainly, the facility that is being discussed in the Louis Riel School Division, as I understand, it has been an administrative building. There are a number of small offices.

There would have to be a significant amount of money that would have to be put in to renovating the school to be appropriate for the Laureate Academy. I am wondering if the minister would indicate, is that money that the Laureate Academy would have to come up with in order to make the facility usable for what is in the best interests of the students, something similar to what they have right now. Who will have to pick up the tab for making the reno- vations to that facility to make it useable for the purposes of educating these children? Mr. Chairperson: I would like to just interrupt for a minute.

I would like to take a moment to caution all honourable members on their language here in committee today. The Speaker has cautioned the members in the House about the word "hypocritical," so let us not cross a line. I would ask all members to keep their remarks tempered and worthy of this Assembly and the office they hold. Thank you. Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, the facility in question previously had been a school, but of course it had been converted to the office space for the St. Boniface School Division. The facility, I understand, has room for eight classrooms plus administration space plus a gymnasium.

Laureate Academy will have an opportunity to tour the facility. It is for them to decide. It is not for me to go there and decide if it is an appropriate facility. It is the Laureate Academy that will have to take a look at that facility and see that it would be appropriate to their needs. Mrs. Stefanson: As I understand, this facility in the Louis Riel School Division has been used for administrative purposes in the past and the offices are quite small. There would have to be significant renovations that would have to go into a building such as that.

I would remind the minister that the Laureate Academy has already, because they had a 10-year lease on their existing building and they are three years into that, because they thought they were going to be there for at least 10 years, they put a significant amount of their own money into the building to renovate it because they wanted to do what is in the best interests of the children to ensure that they get the best quality of education as possible. The minister is now saying, I guess, I will not say what the minister is saying.

I guess I would like to ask the minister, if th ese children are to be uprooted from their exis ting location where the Laureate Academy has put significant money into, is the Laureate Academy then looking at further expenditures to have to, in any facility, any of these options that are provided, are they going to have to pick up the tab for any renovations or upgrades or whatever to those buildings. Mr. Bjornson: Well, certainly, Mr. Chair, with respect to the Brooklands option, St.

James school division has talked about the possibility of reducing the rent, such that there would be approximately $100,000 less rent that could be applied to capital improvements. Perhaps that is an opportunity that might be available to the Laureate Academy when they take a look at the facility that is available in the former St. Boniface School Division office, but that is something that Laureate Academy would have to enter into negotiations with the school division on, on that issue.

1940 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2004 Mrs. Stefanson: Well, I thank the minister for his comments, but I am a little concerned about this. The Laureate Academy has signed on to a 10-year lease with the school division. They put a significant amount of their own money into this facility to make sure that it is safe for th eir children, and so on. Now what he is saying is that, with respect to Brooklands School, which, I would remind the minister, I believe we are awaiting an engineering report to see how stable that building is, but it has been talked about.

The reason that this report, I guess, is coming about is that there have been some concerns with respect to structural issues with the Brooklands School. Mr. Chairperson, if there are structural issues, significant structural issues , they are going to cost quite a bit more than $100,000, and certainly, right now, with Laureate Academy having put so much into their existing facilities, just offering them some- thing that is sort of $100,000, when they are going to have to pay for a new roof, or some structural damage, or what have you, to make sure that is safe for the kids, but that is one alternative.

But the fact of the matter is, these children are going to be uprooted, I guess, as of next year. Hopefully, that is not a done deal yet. I guess, really, what I would like to ask the minister is if, in fact, he would agree to halt the sale of this Spring Valley School that the Laureate Academy is currently situated in until the minister co-ordinates a non-binding mediation to properly explore all options and find a suitable solution for all parties that are involved in this situation.

I speci- fically want to refer again to his letter of May 5, where he indicated that he would explore looking at this as an option to getting all parties together. When will he do this? Will he agree to halt the sale of Spring Valley until this meeting takes place, this non-binding mediation, to explore all possibilities for a suitable solution for all parties? Mr. Bjornson: No, Mr. Chairperson, we will not halt the sale of the school. There are viable options on the table.

We are waiting the independent engineering report on the Brooklands School and, again, the opportunity for Laureate Academy to visit the former St. Boniface School Division office space. There is some disagreement on the structural issues of the Brooklands School. That is why there is an independent engineering report forthcoming. The member from Tuxedo is referring to that $100,000 going into structural improvements. Well, actually, I believe the intent would be, perhaps there would be

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-36
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf 36.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9c221a539cd7cd277494734ff6d1c7d52a3743d9

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