Manitoba Hansard — 25 April 1962 (Sitting 79, 26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-79

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol. VII No. 79 2:30 p.m. Wednesday, April 25, 1962. 5th Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Quee��s Printer for the Province of Manitoba� Winnipeg

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, April 25th, 1962. Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. JIJ.IR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committee. HON. J.B. CARROLL (Minister of Public Utilities and Minister of Labour) (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Standing Committee on Industrial Rela tions. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Industrial Relations beg leave to present the following as their first report. Your Committee met for organization and appointed Honourable Mr.

Carroll as Chairman. Your Committee recommends that for the remainder of the session, the quorum of this Com mittee shall consist of seven members. Your Committee then met at the Legislative Building, Winnipeg, on the following dates: Tuesday, April 17, 1962 . Thursday, April 19 , 1962. Mon day, April 23, 1962 . Tuesday, April 24, 1962. Wednesday, April 25, 1962. Persons who appeared before the Committee were as follows: Mr. J. James, Manitoba Federation of Labour, Mr. R. Taylor, Winnipeg Chamber -- MEMBERS: .. ..... dispense ..•... JIJ.IR.

SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? (Following is list of pers9ns who appeared before the Committee, reading of which was dispensed with -- Mr. J. James , Manitoba Federation of Labour. Mr. R. Taylor, Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce. Mr. R. B. Russell, Winnipeg and District Labour Council. Mr. G. R. Hunter, Q. C., Canadian Manufacturers Association. Mr. Sam Goodman, Winnipeg and Dis trict Labour Council. Colonel Akins, Winnipeg Builders Exchange. Mr. G. Batagali, Inter national Association of Machinists. Mr. S. Carter,-International Association of Machinists. Mr. R. Mattas, Teamsters Union. Mr. R.

Robbins, Carpenters Union. Mr. J. Graham , Carpenters Union. Mr. Lawrence Taylor, Pine Falls Labour Council. Mr. Clive Tallin, Q. C., The Manitoba Chamber of Commerce. Mr. W. C. Ross, Communist Party of Canada. Mr. J. Zuken, Communist Party of Canada . Professor H. C. Pentland. Mr. Allan McPherson, Strong-Scott Manufacturing Co. Ltd. i Mr. John Stevens . Mr. A. Ruben, Local 1901, Car penters Union of America. Mr. Syd Green. Mr. George Najmah, No. 459 Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America. Mr. Art Coulter. Mr . . Otto Anderson, Building Trades Coun- cil and Iron Workers. Mr.

John Raines, Winnipeg Printing Specialties and Paper Products Union Local 537 International Printing Pressmen and Assistants Union of North America. Mr. J. James, Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Engineers, Fort Garry Lodge 597 Flin Flon and District Labour Council. Mr. George Macintosh. Mr. G.S . Rutherford, Q. C. , Legislative Counsel.) JIJ.IR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I think the "dispense" was meant to apply with the lis t of the appearances before the Committee . There would be the actual report of the Committee, I think, following that, that we'd like to hear. JIJ.IR� CARROLL: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health that the -- (Interjection) -- HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, if the Clerk would read the rest of the report then we can have the motion that the report be received. MR . CLERK: Your Committee has considered Bill No. 102,

An Act to amend The Labour Relations Act, and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments, all of which is respectfully submitted. MR . CARROL.L: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health, that the first report of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I would like to just make a brief comment before the motion is put, if I may? MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I have a question that I would like to put to the · April 25th, 1962 Page 21 97

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) •..•. Honourable the Minister. Some of us are not members of the Committee and I'm in that position. I'd like to know, not in detail, but in broad outline, the nature of the amendments, please. MR . C�RROLL: Yes, Mr. Speaker. There were three amendments to the Bill. The first was to correct a situation· which appeared to -- is the result of one of our amendments to prevent employers from appearing -- (Interjection) -- · MR . PAULLEY: :r . ..• -.·:.:: . . .:possibly order of privilege or a combination of both.

I would hope that the Minister replying to the question is not construed of concluding the debate on the presentation of the receipt of the Committee. MR . ROBLIN: .. ....... . as a matter of fact that he's precluded from closing the de- bate but because of the nature of this motion that he may merely make an introductory state ment and then he's through. I believe that's right. I don't think it's a standard motion as we understand it. MR .

CARROLL: The first amendment that was proposed in Committee was to make it clear that employers could appear before the Manitoba Labour Board on certification or decer tification issues. The second question was to include arbitration boards -- members of arbi tration boards among those who could not act if they had a pecuniary interest on either the la bour or management side or if they had acted as agents or counsel for either party within the period of 12 months prior to the setting up of the arbitration board.

The final one was to make it a.little clearer to those not familiar with legal terminology that an employer was included in that

section dealing with legal status. The bill merely said, "any person" which ou:r: legal people tell us means any employer, but to clear up that point we included the word "employer" in there and thus made it clear. We also brought in a fourth amendment which has the effect of withholding the legal status

section until we've had a chance to have it referred to the Courts for their

interpretation of the section, whereupon we will bring it in on proclamation if the

section says what we believe it does say.- MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, before the question is put, I want to raise objections to the receipt of this Committee report. It is not my intention at this time to raise the reasons for the objection to the report of the Committee. In the report it is indicated that we sat, I believe, some five mornings to deal with the contents of Bill No. 102.

A£ far as my group is concerned, we have fought bitterly in Committee after hearing representations from the people who attended at the Committee hearings, arrl we object most strongly to even the receipt of the report of this Committee. But as I say, Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention this afternoon to discuss or to consider the points that were debated in the Committee. We will have an oppor tunity to do that, Sir, on third reading of the bill and I assure the House that at that time the points that were raised in Committee by my group Win be raised. So therefore, Mr.

Speaker, I am going to ask for a recorded vote on the receipt of this report, but I am not going to argue the contents of the same this afternoon. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . PAULLEY: Yeas -and Nays, please, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Call in the members. Before the House is the motion of the Honourable Minister of Labour, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, that the report of the Labour Relations Committee be received. A standing vote was taken with the following result: YEAS: Messrs.

Bjornson, Carroll, Christianson, Corbett, Cowan, Evans, Froese, Groves, Hamilton, Hutton, Ingebrigtson, Jeannotte, Johnson (Assiniboia), Johnson (Gimli), Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McKellar, McLean, Martin, Roblin, Scarth, Seaborn, Shewman, Smellie, Stanes, Strickland, Watt, Weir, Witney, Mrs. Forbes and Mrs. Morrison. -NAYS: Messrs. Campbell, Desjardins, Dow, Gray, Guttormson, Harris, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Molgat, Orlikow, Paulley, Peters, Prefontaine, Reid, Schreyer, Tanchak, Wagner, Wright. MR. CLARK: Yeas 32; Nays 18. Mr. Speaker declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bills.

Before I call the .Orders of the Day, I should like to introduce to members of the Page 2198 April 25th, 1962

(Mr. Speaker, cont'd.) .•. .. Legislative Assembly, the 4-H Club from Langruth, 12 members under the guidance of Mrs. Ev elyn Eiriksson. The club is situated in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Gladstone, Mr. Shoemaker. -We are happy to have this group with us this afternoon and look down from the Galleries on our deliberations. I might say that these are the future farm people of Manitoba; ·they're interested in scientific farming and other acti vities of youth, and we wish them well and we hope that they will come back so me day and see us again. Orders of the Day. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, before we proceed with the Orders of the Day, I would like to gather .the opinions of the House with respect to our proceedings today. Under normal cir cumstances we would go into Committee of Supply right away and carry on with our work there. There's quite a lot left to do, and it seems to me rather unlikely that we would finish Commit tee of Supply and deal with Capital Estimates and concurrence and all those things before our usual rising time of 5:30 this afternoon.

My suggestion would be that thl House might desire to sit this evening with the object in mind of completing all the work in the Committee of Supply, and concurrence, and then hearing the budget address this evening and perhaps adjourning after that. If we should take that course I would then also propose that we should bring in this even ing, before we rise, the motion that has to do with the speeding up of the sittings of the House so that we would sit tomorrow morning to hear second readings of some 20-odd bills that are on the Order Paper and advance them one stage in respect of that matter.

Now I must make it clear that if we are to sit tonight and to adopt this proposal it would require unanimous consent. I have consulted certain gentlemen in the. House and I understand there is a feeling that this might be possible, but I should like to know now what various people think of the proposal. MR. G. MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, insofar as our group is concerned I think we have shown through the course of the session our co-operation in the matter of sittings. We proposed originally to sit mornings earlier during the course of the session.

We certainly are quite anxious to have the work of the House proceed at the proper pace. On the other hand we don't want to be put in a straight jacket where we do not have pro per time for consideration of any of the material before us. We have left still in the estimates the matter of the Treasury Department; there are some quite important aspects there -- one in particular, of course; the unconditional grants to municipalities. We have spoken about this in the Throne Speech debate but have not had a debate. Purposely under Municipal Affairs we did not go into the subject knowing it would be coming up now.

We will, of course, have a num ber of things to say in this regard today. We have furthermore before us che capital estimates, some $57 million which, in .our opinion, requires very careful consideration by the House. I would say then that in the light of this -- the fact that there is no possibility of completing our session this week -- (Interjection) -- oh yes, we have concurrence as well to do today -- there is no possi bility of finishing the work of the House this week, but we would not be prepared at this moment to give an undertaking of unanimous consent this evening.

This does not mean that later on in the course of the afternoon as we see how we proceed, and if we find that we are in fact going through this at a pace that would permit us to complete the work tonight without rush ing anyone, and proper discussion, that we would not be prepared to reconsider that, but I don't think that at this moment with the amount of material before us, the necessity of proper debate, that we would be prepared right now to give that undertaking. We will be prepared to consider it later on in the afternoon.

I'd also like to point out that, as the Minister said, we have a num ber of important bills still to be discussed. Now the members of the House have had a busy week; there's been committee every morning of this week, and while not all the members are on committee a number of members who are not committee members were there nevertheless, because of the importance of the bill, and I think there should be some time for the proper dis cussion of these bills by the various groups in the House. So that would be our stand at the moment, Sir.

We're not saying that if later on in the afternoon it appears that we can make this progress we may be prepared then; at the moment I would not be prepared to make an un dertaking. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I might say that as far as this group is concerned, I've discussed the matter with my caucus and we came to the agreement that we would give consent to the meeting this evening in order to expedite the business of Manitoba. I appreciate the April 25th, 1962 Page 2199

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) ..... remarks of the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party insofar as study is concerned, and the fact that we have been very busy recently. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that I've been among those who have been exceptionally busy in committee because of the fact that I am on the Industrial Relations Committee which has met two morning from 9:00 o'clock in the morning until on towards 2:00 o'clock in order to achieve the purpose of that meeting.

We met again this morning and I do know that it's been a hardship on some of the ·members of this House to give consideration and study to the question of the estimates and al so to other points raised by the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. These questions that he refers to, of course, Mr. Speaker, have been before us with the exception of the capital .estima tes for some six weeks to two months. Our conclusions and our deliberations, Mr.

Speaker, may not be too conclusive but we have had the opportunity of study, I might suggest, and apparently at this particular stage of course, we have not got the unanimous consent of the House. I merely state our position, the New Democratic Party; we would be prepared to sit tonight; we would be prepared that if, as a result of sitting tonight, the, what we. call the roller coaster motion, to make three sittings a day, came into effect tomorrow, to accept that in order to facilitate the completion of the business of the House.

I might say that it does ap pear to me that the Leader of the Liberal Party has given some support to the desirability of sitting this evening, because if we don't complete the estimates, if we don •t complete concur rences this afternoon, and don't complete the capital supply, well then if we don't complete it by 5:30,· then we're going to have to start in again tomorrow afternoon at 2:30 and this will, in my opinion, further delay the House. However, the indication is, Mr.

Speaker, that we can't have unanimous consent in respect of this unless, as the Honourable Leader of the Op position says, "later on after seeing how far we get." I don't know exactly at what time in the day this reconsideration will be given, but at the same time, Mr. Speaker, I can see at the moment we haven't got unanimous consent, so of course we cannot consider the matter. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I think that after having listened to the two honourable gentlemen I should withdraw the suggestion, which I do. MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, might I ask the Honour able the First Minister if all pieces of legislation to be introduced have now been introduced, and have all of them been placed on our desks? MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, generally speaking, that is correct. There are a few measures that are being withheld pending the budget, as my honourable friend knows, but all the routine legislation has been on the Order Paper and indeed printed for about the last week. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR . L. DESJARDINS (St.

Boniface): Before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to direct this question to the Honourable Leader of the House. I've asked this question last -- oh two weeks ago or so, and I'm asking it again. Are there any indications that I will soon get a re ply to my question asking for the names and addresses and salaries of the people on the dif ferent boards of the province? MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, in response to my honourable friend's enquiry, my answer is the same, that it is being worked at and I sincerely hope that it will be available to him before the House rises.

There's a great deal of detail work in this and it is a lengthy process, I must admit, but we're going to do our best to give it to him. MR . DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, is it the intention to wait after the session is finished before I get this answer? It doesn't seem that it is so complicated. They can get this informa tion from different departments. There's a question of names and addresses; they certainly must have this on file and they certainly -- when we're going through estimates and so on we must know what the province is spending in salaries. It seems that this is unfair to wait this long.

It is something that I hoped to have before the session was over; there's something that I need it for; for ...... . MR. ROBLIN: I regret, Mr. Speaker, that my honourable friend seems unable to ac cept my statement on the matter. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Adjourned debate .. � ..... . MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I note that the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture is not in his seat at the moment. He was here I believe. Is any�ne on the government bench in a position to give us the latest Page 2200 April 25th, 1962

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd. ) . . . • . information with regard to the river situation? MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak with the authority of my honourable colleague in this matter, but I enquired of him quite recently about this problem and he informed me that the flood situation was about the same as it was yesterday. There are no new facts to report, but if he has anything now he can speak for himself. HON. G. HUTTON (Ministe r of Agriculture and Conservation) (Rockwood-lberville): Nothing new on the flood, no, but the waters are receding in the river. MR . CAMPBELL: I rather gathered, ' Mr.

Speaker, that that was the fact, that it would appear that the crests in both cases of the Red and the Assiniboine would appear to have been reached. Is that correct? MR , HUTTON: No. · Mr. Speaker, the crest on the Assiniboine comes in at a later date. We haven't had any crests on the Assiniboine as yet. The main crest on the Assiniboine comes later, but it is not anticipated that there will be any change in that crest from what was forecast previously.

There is a slight drop on the Red River and I think I mentioned either yesterday or the day before that this can pe accounted for by the fact that there seems to be a separation be tween the crest -- the local crest -- and that coming in from the head waters in the USA. It could be that there will be a second crest, but it is still well within the limits of the channel capacity, and as a matter of fact there could be a revision downwards, although I have not re ceive.d word yet. MR , DESJARDINS: .••......• flood, has the Minister anything to report on the Seine River? Is there anything new there?

Has the Seine reached the crest here in the city? MR , HUTTON: Well of course the Sein.e is now -- the conditions or circumstances that contributed to flooding on the Seine in 1959 and 1960 now no longer exist because there is a splitting of the waters at Ste. Anne and I have been advised by my department that there is no danger of flooding on the Seine River. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture is in a position today to tell us what the financial arrangem Ents will be with muni cipalities who are faced with flood fighting costs? Is he prepared to make a statement? MR , HUTTON: Well I can just say, Mr.

Speaker, that in the past the Province of Manitoba, as I said earlier when this matter was raised, that any program for assistance to the municipalities or towns or cities would be based upon precedent, and the precedent as esta blished has been that the provincial government has paid 100% of the flood-fighting costs where they have been authorized. MR , MOLGAT: This, then, the government is prepared to do again in this case? MR . HUTTON: Governments rarely depart from precedents in matters of this kind, I would suggest. MR , SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 100. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve it self into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St, Mat thews in the Chair. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, we now return to the estimates of the Treasury Branch where there are a number of items outstanding.

First of all I would like to distribute some in formation that was asked of me by members of the House formerly. I think the Honourable Member for Lakeside asked for a statement on the debt position, which I have here, and the Honourable Member for Transcona asked for some statistical material respecting the savings bonds, and -- (Interjection) -- Radisson, I'm sorry. And the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose asked for certain information with respect to the savings bonds, all of which I have here and if we can get a page to distribute this -- this is for Mr. Molgat; that's for Mr. Paulley; that's for Mr.

Campbell. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 10, Item 4 in Treasury Deparment ID. Passed? MR . CAMPBELL: Four, are we, Mr. Chairman? MR . CHAIRMAN: No, no we're at .. .•..• April 25th, 1962 Page 2201

l\ffi. ROBLIN: As I understood. the matter, Mr. Chairman, I think Administration Item 1 was standing for ..... l\ffi. CHAIRMAN: It's No. 3 according to your -- l\ffi. ROBLIN: .•........ the information that we just distributed. So that cleans that up and we're now on Central Electronic Data Processing Bureau. I'd be glad to answer any ques tions there are on that point. l\ffi. CHAIRMAN: Item 3. l\ffi. CAMPBELL: Could the Minister give us an up-to-date review of the situation as to how this high-priced electric brain is working out? Is it discharging its function well?

I'm in terested to note that as compared to last year there has been a reduction of staff in one depart ment. I think that's the only one. I presume that the reduction of staff in this case -- no, per haps this is not the department after an; I'm afraid that it was the -- afraid it was the Comp troller's Branch where we had a very small reduction. This one has increased a little bit too as compared to last year. But I would guess that perhaps the reduction in staff in the Comp troller's Branch is perhaps due to the electronic machine. Is that correct? l\ffi.

ROBLIN: I think it's fair to say that it had an influence there, Mr. Speaker. Of course, as my honourable friend appreciates very well indeed, the great problem here is not to get reductions; it's to prevent it from keeping on going up. That's one of the big problems, and we believe that we have been able at least to slow down the rate of increase of clerical staff by the use of these electronic machines that we have, and they seem to be used pretty extensively by the various departments in the government.

We have, and these are .some electro-mechanical equipment such as punchers, verifiers, collators, sorters, accounting machines, reproducers and interpreters, and we also have electronic equipment, that is a data-processing system, which consists of a computer, a punch and a converter. What happens is that we rent these services to the various departments concerned and they send down the data, it's processed here, and they're charged in sort of a commercial way, you might say, like the Queen's Printer does, for the services they use. And it's been pretty extensively used.

Every department of the government, I think, has been using this. In the Department of Education, for example, all phases of reporting examination results are now mechanized and these are put through the machines and -- as members will recatl, the machine wasnJt quite right the first time but we haven't had any complaints since and I think it's now working satisfactorily. Many statistics are taken off as a by-product of these examination results through this machine.

And again in the Department of Health many of the questionnaires and results of sur veys taken in that department are processed here and statistical collation goes on all the time. The Department of Industry and Commerce tabulate the results of tourist enquiries and relate them to geographical preferences, and all that kind uf thing, to find out what people are interes ted in so they can slant their advertising in that direction. Again, with the Departm ent of Labour, the vacations-with-pay credit system has been mechanized at quite a considerable saving. That is done in this way as well.

The wage survey, which was formerly manually done, is now done electronically and has helped us to keep down increased staff in that way. In the Department of Municipal Affairs we now have· the centralized preparation of the combined assessments and tax rolls of municipalities outside Metro. These are all processed in this department as well. In the Department of the Civil Service the employees' records are all punched and collated mechanically in this way. Similarly with the Registrar of Companies.

In the Highways Depart ment, the Provincial Treasurer's Department -- all our bond registers and interest payments are all done mechanically at very little cost to us in this respect. Payroll and related statis- tics in connection with the Civil Service are handled as well. And in the Department of Welfare and in Agriculture, and in others, they are making use of the quick calculation that this equip ment provides. And it does give us a lot more information than we had before. The job is to try and use it intelligently and make sure that we get value for the service.

Our opinion is that this has proved a good investment. l\ffi. CAMPBELL: I shouldn't expect the Honourable the First Minister to be familiar with the details of other branches, and I should have asked this question at another time, but my belief is that some of the boards and commissions, at least, I believe that Manitoba Hydro has similar equipment, or it may not be similar. Are there any others in the boards and commis sions that have this type of machine? Page 2202 April 25th, 1962

MR. ROBLIN: There are some of a relatively elementary character. In the Liquor Commission there's one, for example; they use it in connection with their work. Rather a good one is in the hands of the Hydro Board and they use it in calculating water flows and the production of electricity and all that kind of thing. And I also believe there's another quite good one at the university which they use out there on their calculations. But apart from that we have endeavoured to centralize all governmental requirements in this one branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: ; ••.. , .... passed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman; are we investigating other possibilities of improving methods? For example, the Land Titles Office. There seems to be there at times some .dif ficulties ;;i.nd delays in obtaining information and so on. Is there any possibility there of getting this information on some sort of a mechanized basis, and has an investigation been made? MR.

ROBLIN: We've looked into that and to the best information that I have at my finger tips at the present time it's not proved feasible because of the fact that there are so many indi vidual things peculiar to a particular title or transaction, that it's bes.t done the way it is even though it is manual and a relatively cumbersome method of doing it. It does not lend itself readily to mechanized techniques. MR. CHAIR;M.AN: Item 3 passed; Item 4 passed? MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, on Item 4; the insurance premiums, I note, are down slightly.

Is there a change in the policy of the government with regards to self-insurance? MR. ROBLIN: There's no change in the policy. We insure exactly as we did before but we were successful in negotiating a new fleet policy at a reduced cost. That is the reason why that estimate is down. MR. MOLGAT: right? MR. ROBLIN: MR. MOLGAT: This covers then strictly the automobiles of the government, is that Yes, that insurance premium is for automobiles. It's our fleet policy. 'what about the commissions and boards who have their own vehicles?

Are they covered through the same policy, or are they all -- do they insure on their own? MR. ROBLIN: No, Sir, the boards and commissions are separately managed and have their own arrangements. MR. MOLGAT: · .. And insofar as buildings: those owned by the province are all self insured, I take it, and those owned by boards and commissions. MR. ROBLIN: Yes, the province runs its own show; the boards and commissions handle theirs.

As far as provincial buildings are concerned, we have, as I think the honourable mem ber knows, our own insurance fund, which now stands around $600, OOO to cover the first half million dollars of any liability. Over a half million dollars we are re-insured for a small pre mium so that we are fully protected in the event of disasters. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I've had a request, insofar as the insurance is con cerned, for information on public insurance adjusters.

Now this, apparently, is an individual or ancaffice of the type that is frequently used in the United States where an individual works as an insurance adjuster for the public. Anyone who has insurance claims of any kind can proceed to see this individual and for some fee, I presume, he proceeds to take over the whole case and do the whole investigation. ls this permissible in Manitoba? Does our legislation provide for this? Is any consideration being given by the department in this regard? MR. ROBLIN: The legislation, I think, covers the field pretty thoroughly, Mr.

Chair man, that as far as adjusting is concerned that no insurance adjuster's license is required for anyone acting as agent on behalf of a property owner or an insurance claim. However, an in surance adjuster's license is required for an independent insurance adjuster retained by in surers, and I think that covers the situation that my honourable friend speaks of. So if you would expect to act on behalf of an insurance company, then you require a license, but if you are aeting on behalf of a property owner, you do not require a license. MR.

MOLGAT: It seems then that an individual who wants to set himself up as a public adjuster can do so without license, provided that he is not acting on behalf of the insurance com pany? Is that the understanding? MR. ROBLIN: I'll read the

section of the statute: "Subject to sub-section (2) no person shall, on behalf of himself or any other person, directly or indirectly, (

a) solicit the right to negotiate, or negotiate or attempt to negotiate for or in expectation of any fee, gain or reward April 25th, 1962 Page 2203

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.) .•... the settlement of a claim for loss or damage arising out af a motor vehicle accident, resulting in bodily injury to or in death of any person or damage to property on behalf of the claimant, or; (

b) hold himself out as an adjuster, investigator, consultant, or otherwise as an adviser on behalf of any person having a claim against an insured for which in demnity is provided by'the motor vehicle's policy.

(2) Except as to the soliciting the right to' negotiate, this

section does not apply to a barrister or solicitor acting in the usual course of his profession." This

section has been in the Act of the province for a number of years. It is noteworthy that

Section 4 -- 348(8) (

b) in effect provides that a person acting as an agent for the owtier of property insured does not require a license. Now this is a rather technical matter and if my honourable friend has a particular case in mind, we'd be glad to investigate it and let him know how the rule applies, but that's the general principle. · -MR. MOLGAT: The rule that the Minister read applies strictly to motor vehicles, I take it? This does not apply to other general liability claims or property claims, other than motor vehicle? · MR.

ROBLIN: The information I have here merely says, "With respect to a person who is unlicensed, an agent acting on behalf of a property owner." Which I presume takes. in any form of property. But if my honourable friend has a particular case, if he will give me the de tails I will have the department check it and we can give him a decision as to how the rule's ap plied. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, dealing with the Insurance Branch, a couple ,of years ago I had two or three cases in respect of people who had their automobiles insured, had be come involved in an accident, and had their policies cancelled by the insurance company -- that is the standard coverage, at standard rates -- but were accepted, or a proposition was suggested to them that they could take coverage under penalty rates.

This matter was drawn to the attention of the Superintendent of Insurance, at least, I think, a couple of cases, and I believe eventually the party concerned obtained rates, not quite as favourable as they previously were, but at standard rates. I'm wondering, Mr. Chaifman, whether or not the First Minister may have information as to whether or not any further cases have been drawn to the attention of the Superintendent of Insurance. It seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, from ether information that I have received from time to time, that with the insurers of automobiles therEl is some suspicion in some people's minds that the companies who are doing the insuring have all the benefits of the law on their side in that they can reject the preferential premium rates; they have within the statutory conditions on the premiums the right at any time on 15 days' notice by registered letter simply to abolish the coverage on anybody's automobile. I had thought, Mr.

Chairman and members of the Committee, prior to the start of this session, that I might reintroduce an old baby of ours, ·namely that of calling for compulsory automobile insurance with the state being the insurer. Looking at the agenda at the time, we figured that we would not introduce a formal resolution dealing with this, and I give notice, if we are to have another session., the chances are that the resolution will be before the House at that time. I would like to know if the Honourable the First Minister has any general report of the situation in respect to automobile insurance. It seems to me that

whereas in the past Mani toba has prided itself on the question of its pink cards, that other jurisdictions are now investi gating into the whole matter of even the pink cards to indiCate that the owner of an automobile is insured in the fact. I believe a committee was set up in the Province of Ontario to investi gate this matter and that they are in the process of considering compulsory automobile insurance for all.

Now they don't, of course, make the same proposal as we have here in the House, that is that it should be operated by the government as it is in Saskatchewan, but I think more and more jurisdictions are coming to the conclusion that it should be a requisite before operating a motor vehicle in the jurisdiction that the party should be fully covered for public liability and property damage.

I don't know if this administration has given any consideration to setting up an investigating committee, either within the insurance department itself, because of the in- - crease in the numbers of automobiles and motor vehicles using our highways, to introduce the scheme of compulsory insurance, even though it may not be the type of insurance that we would desire in this particular group. But I would like to hear if it's possible for the Minister to give me the answer to t�e question specifically, insofar as the problem that I had a couple of Page 2204 April 25th, 1962

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) ...• . years ago -- and I'm informed to some degree at least it still pre vails in certain instances -- as to whether or not, in view of the fact that other jurisdictions are taking a second look at Unsatisfied Judgment Funds and the likes of that, whether they have taken under consideration the possibility of compulsory automobile insurance for every user of a motor vehicle in the Province of Manitoba? MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I can make a few comments on my honourable friend's re marks.

First of all I should say that I remember a case, which I think he is referring to, with respect to a person whose insurance policy was cancelled and who had to seek another carrier for it. Of course it's true that the carriers have the right to refuse to accept the business if they want .to. This person did complain to the Superintendent of Insurance and it did prove pos sible to place his insurance with another carrier, I believe through. the Assigned Risk Plan, and if my memory serves me, I think at the same price that he paid in the first instance.

That is the only case of its kind that has come to my notice, but that's what the Superintendent of Insur ance is there for; if any member of th e public feel that they have been improperly handled by an insurance company, we'll do our best to straighten the matter out to the satisfaction of all con cerned. But that is the only case I recall. There's been none in the last year that's come to my attention.

Regarding the whole problem of insurance, I would say that we are relatively satisfied with the way the present system is working, because oddly enough -- and this does sound strange, but they tell me it is true -- we have a higher percentage of people who actually have taken out policies in Manitoba than they have in some jurisdictions where it's ostensib ly compulsory.

That seems rather odd, but I'm sure it is correct, and while I won't vouch for the accuracy of the figures, the relative position is that we may be insured up to, say 97%, in Manitoba as things stand at present, and thit in some jurisdictions where it's compulsory it's less than 97% actually are insured, in spite of the compulsory aspect of the law, so that's one of these strange contradictions which I can't explain.

All I can say is that I think that the present system is work ing reasonably satisfactorily and that in direct reply to my honourable friend's question I can say that we have no plans to change it at the present time. · MR . J.M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, I have one point to raise and I'm not quite stire whether this is the correct department or item under which it should be raised. It's got to do With the extension of the date by whi�h reports have to be filed.

This matter was brought to my attention by one of the directors of a local insurance company and apparently they find it hard to -- from the time they've got their year-end -- to submit the reports, and they felt whether there couldn't be more time given, or an earlier year-end; either one. I wonder -- (Interjection) -- MR . ROBLIN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think if my honourable friend would be kind enough to give me the particular instance some time I could look into it and see whether there was anything that could be done about it.

I imagine that the date for filing is either statutory or by regulation and therefore applies to everybody across the board, and it might be difficult to change it, but if he would give me the facts of the matter, I would undertake to look into it and see if any relief can be given. MR . FROESE: I'll do that. Thank you. MR . EDMOND PREFONTAINE (Carillon): Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I understood the First Minister correctly.

I think he told us that all government-owned buildings were self insured at the present time, and if I remember correctly, I think that some two or three years ago the First Minister told us that the government was self-insuring the better buildings, those where the risks were smaller, but that they were giving out the older buildings, or some of the older buildings at least, where they thought the risk was greater. I wonder if there has been a change of policy in respect of this matter and at the present time the government is carrying the insurance on all their buildings. MR .

ROBLIN: The present plan has been in effect since January 1, 1960, and under it, we do self-insure all our buildings up to a total half a million dollars and it's only the surplus above that that's carried by reinsurance. Incidentally, our fire risk has been extremely good. MR . CHA!Rl.VIAN: ..•....... passed? Resolution 10 passed? Item 5 passed. Item 6 passed? MR , CAMPBELL: .......... have the details on (

a) once again, Mr. Chairman? April 25th, 1962 Page 2205

MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I think, as members know, from time to time the Pro vincial Treasury is entrusted with the funds of a number of different organizations which we hold in trust, and as a result of that we have the use of the money and we therefore pay interest on it, and this first sum 6(

a) is the interest that we pay out on the trust funds that we have, and it includes practically everything you can think of that we hold money for on a temporary basis. The first item on my list here in the Crop Insurance Fund and it runs right down to the Work men's Compensation Board and it takes in the Horned Cattle Purchases Fund; the Local Govern ment Districts; the Agricultural Credit Corporation; the Power Commission Sinking Fund; the Manitoba Text Book Bureau; Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry Ladies Auxiliary Mem orial Scholarship Fund - $1. 84; and so on; there's about 20 different funds.

MR . CAMPBELL: .......... $10, OOO I notice from last year, Mr. Chairman. I wouldn't think that any of those funds or the group of them would change so greatly in a year. Perhaps it was underestimated Last year or -- MR . ROBLIN: I'm not able to say whether it was underestimated last year because the information is not before me, but -- wait a minute. Yes, I think it was underestimated last year by the $10, OOO. 00. The actual expenditure is very close to what we're asking for now. That's right. MR . FROESE: Mr. Chairman, while we're under Miscellaneous, I would like to raise one point.

I mentioned it when we considered the Treasury Department at an earlier date, about the unused authorizations that are still on the books. I think the Minister told me at that time that the information would be made available on request, and I would like to have the in formation if at all possible. Secondly, under 6(b), Refunds. What does the $70, OOO entail? It's not a ....... tax refund, is it? MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I'll get that information that my honourable friend asks for.

Under Refunds, these are such things as refunds of motor vehicle license fees which are due for licenses that are turned in; grazing and timber permits which are cancelled or not taken out; taxes on corporations sometimes are overpaid and we have to make refunds; and all that kind of thing. There's quite a list of different types of fees. Land Titles fees are some times refundable; law fees; license and suspension of appeal board fees, and all kinds of things. From time to time, people pay us more than they ought to and we have to have some means of paying them back. That's what this fund is used for. · MR .

PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, with respect to Soldiers' Taxation Relief; this amount seems to be frozen at $15, OOO. 00. It was at that figure some 10, 15 years ago, and I kind of remember that the scope was widened to take care of new category or increased benefits. This is not shown in the amounts of money that the government seems to be paying. Maybe Pm mistaken. If I am, I wish the Minister would set me right, but it seems to me that there would be new people coming in and qualifying for this relief at the present time, and I'm surprised that the amount is always the same.

Maybe there is an explanation that I don't know anything about. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend is right that a change of the regu lation was made in, I think, 159 or 160, one of the sessions around there, which broadened the scope of this Act. Up until that time the amount that had been paid out had been gradually de clining, and in 1959 it went up again to some $16, 600, but since then it's been gradually falling off again, so we think that $15, OOO will be enough in view of the experience, and it has been gradually tapering off. MR . CHAIRMAN: .......... passed? Item 7 passed? MR.

ROBLIN: Now this is a matter of some interest, Mr. Chairman, and I think I'd like to give the committee a statement on the unconditional grants. The unconditional grants will remain this year at the same figure that they have been for some years, of $3. 00 per municipality, and of the sum that is here now, some $2, 680, OOO is the grant that is payable this year on the basis of the new population figures.

In addition to that, according to the sta tute, we make a retroactive payment to take account of the changes in population since the last census, and some $570, OOO is required to make that back adjustment, making a total of some three and a quarter million dollars. Now, previously members asked me for some breakdown of population changes throughout the province which would indicate what has happened in various localities, and I endeavoured to obtain that information, but apparently my staff inform me that Page 2206 April 25th, 1962

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd. ) ... .. the census figures are not available in such a way that they could give me that information; they only have the broad general figures before them, so I can't give that par ticular information that would indicate the shift of population between various parts of the province, but what has happened is that people are now getting paid on the new census basis and pretty nearly everybody -- there may be some who are not -- but pretty nearly everybody is getting a little bit more -- some quite a little bit more -- with respect to increases of popu lation since the last census.

Our understanding is that there may be a few areas , but we be lieve them to be small, where there had actually been a decrease of population since the last census, and that in most areas it has either been perhaps a standstill, or slight increase, or in the case of the urban areas quite a large increase, but I regret that I can't give a detailed breakdown of that information at the present time. MR . E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Chairman, I was interested in the Honourable Leader of the House's figures.

I was maybe more fortunate than he in arriving and getting a set of figures from the DBS in regards to the population shift in Manitoba due to the 1961 cen sus, and while the percentage, as he says, is small in the total amount of money, but it does reveal something to me that is quite disturbing, particularly in the rural areas, that of the 109 rural municipalities in the Province of Manitoba, 84 of the 109 will receive less money on a per capita grant basis than they did in 1957. There 1s 21 of the 109 that have showed an in crease.

Now in the villages in Manitoba, of the 36 villages there are 21 that show a decrease and 15 show an increase. There are only four towns in the province which show a decrease, and from then on they all show increases in population. Now if you wish to break it down per centage-wise, roughly on the basis of figures that I had submitted ; is the rural municipalities will have a decrease of 10% of .the per capita grant structure in 1962; the villages will have a decrease of 20%; the towns wiil have an increase of 6%, and the cities and suburban munici palities will have an increase of 35%.

Now, Sir, I wish to bring to the attention of this com mittee that particularly in the rural municipalities this decrease, while not large, is a very decisive factor inasmuch as they are compelled through various means to provide school roads, of which, true, they get a grant from this government, but in some instances they build roads that possibly they wouldn't build in normal cases, that their burden of taxes through various means, particularly education, has increased, and now the unconditional grant is being reduced that can vary from a small amount to a large amount but in effect it has the effect of increasing taxes throughout the province, particularly in the rural areas.

I was somewhat disappointed, I may say, that there wasn't a little, substantial, or some mention made that the per capita grant structure would be increased this year, basing it on these various costs that municipali ties do have and have had over the past number of years. I feel, Sir, that this reduction in rural municipalities will be felt more because it is a wonderful grant to these municipalities.

They can use it for the benefit of the total municipality and it does set up the equalizing effect that I believe will come eventually in the Province of Manitoba, in that the province will take a larger share of the taxing structure to relieve real property tax by way of additional grants of some kind or another, and therefore I am somewhat disturbed that while the percentage in rural municipalities decreased -- as I said, was approximately 10% decrease -- that there is the trend that this is going to possibly go further, and it is with that in mind, Sir, that I'm pre pared to move for consideration of this committee, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains, ·that this government give consideration to the advisability of (1) amending

Section 4 of The Unconditional Grants Act by providing that a floor be placed on the minimum grant payable to any municipality based on the amount payable to that municipality in the year 1957; and (2) that the unconditional grant, per capita grant, be substantially increased. MR . CHAIRMAN: .. .•...... the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, a motion that this government give consideration to the advisability of (1) amending

Section 4 of The Un conditional Grants Act by providing that a floor be placed on the minimum grant payable to any municipality based on the amount payable to that municipality in the year 1957; and (2) that the unconditional per capita grant be substantially increased. Are you ready for the question? MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I suppose that the member would expect me to make a few remarks on his resolution. I first would like to say that I'd be interested in having his population figures because I must admit they're a little bit advanced from ours, because I'm April 25th, 1962 Page 2207

(Mr. Roblin, cont' d. ) ..... advised that the final figures will not be availa ble until June, al though it may be that he has a preliminary figure which may be reason ably accurate -- I won't debate that point with him; I' m just interested in the fact that he has the figure and I'd be in teres ted to see it. He does touch on a problem which I must frankly say is ca using us more than a little con cern.

I think one would have to say that it's not merely the under-populated areas that will feel the effects of changes in the movement of people, but also those areas which are growing, be cause the areas that are growing are being placed under a strain for additional schools and ad ditional roads and additional sewers and additional municipal and local facilitie s, in order to service the people who are coming in, and it's quite obvious that very few of tho se public ser vices can be postponed or dispensed with, because if the population is there they must be served.

So while I can see and indeed sympathize with the position of the municipalities that are losi ng population, I hasten to say that they're not the only people with a problem , because those areas where population is growing are also under a very co.nsiderable pressure in res pect of this matter and I want to acknowledge the situation which I know exists , and those mem bers here who represent suburban areas or growing towns will know exactly what I'm talking about.

I think, however, that we ·should make it clea r that while unconditional grants of this sort are easy to identify in the estimat es , they are only a minor portion -- they are a very sma ll portion indeed -- of the provincial grants which are made available for municipal pur poses.

In fact, we est imate that today some 60 or 70 million dollars of provincial money that we� vote here in this House is either directly or indirectly available to municipalitie s, either as a direct assi stance in some of the services that they supply, or represent the province having taken over services which were formerly municipal in cha racter, so that as well as this rela tively small sum of some three and a quarter million doll ars, we are providing by way of direct and indirect grants a sum very much larger indeed.

In fact, I can tell the commi ttee that since this governmen t came into office there has been an increase of around $6 million a year, now · totalling some 25 or so million dollars -- somet hing more than that -- in the amount of condi tional -- direct and indirect grants that we make. In. fact, in the last four years there has been a 60% increase in the money made available to municipalities in this way.

So that I think that in discus sing this question, you necess arily raise the whole issue of muliicipal finance, and one , I think, must bear in mind the very large -- I think -- the very large increases in direct and indirect grants amou nting to some $25 million or so over the past few years. But having said that, all one has really done is to sketch in somet hing of the nature of the problem that we're facing, because I must admit that I'm far from sa tisfied with the situa tion in which municipal government finds itself at the present time.

In some instances the amount of money coming from the province is so large as to virtually make them pensioners of the provincial government.

This .is true in respect - of many rural municipalities in particu lar and indeed some suburban, that the percent age of money which is now being supplied by the province for them to carry on their functions is so large as to make them virtual pensioners of the provincial govern ment, and in othe r areas you have the claim that they would love to be pensioners of the provincial government but they're not getting enough money to qualify for that description, and some of our urban areas are taking a pretty strong stand on that point of view.

So it seems to me that before very long we are going to have to examine this ques tion thoroughly . I must say that I can't support my honourable friend's motion this afternoon for obvious reasons, because it imposes a charge on the Conso lidated Fund which the budget at the present time is not in a position to deal with satisfactorily as will become apparent when we have our further discussi ons on that matter, but I'm glad that he raised it because it does give an oppor tunity to have a discussion of this whole proble m.

My feeling is this, that the ideal situation would be one in which the responsi bilities entrusted to municipalities are related to their sour ces of revenue. That is , that we should like to have the municipalities as financially indepe n dent bodies, having a restricted number of responsi bilities or perhaps an enlarged one -- we needn 't judge that ques tion right now -- but having a set of responsibilities which are clea rly related to the revenues at their disposal.

And we know that, by and large , today the revenue that they have at their disposal is the revenue from land, the revenue from property, and we ar� aware of the inconsistencies and the inequities of that system, and we are aware of its limitations -- and that'� .a very important point, I think, to make. So I think that it is advisable , Page 2208 April 25t h, 1962

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd. ) ..•.• desirable, that we should have a discus sion this afternoon and col lect the contributions that members would like to make toward this difficult problem, because the government, we on this side, frallkly say that we•re not satisfied with the situation and we know that there is a committee sitting that I think deserves some credit. It stems from the initiative of the two municipal associations in this province that are looking into this matter and I expect them to have some valuable suggestions to make to us.

But I think that in the quite near fu tu:re we' re going to have to have a thorough re:-examination of the who le of the· financial municipal provincial structure within this province. We had one in 1952 but we found that that was only tinkering.

I'm not going to make any critical comments on that commission because I think they did much good work and I approve of many of the things that they recommended and that were done at that time, but it seems to me that we are in this position now where we are rapidly approaching the point where we will have to have a thorough basic re-examination of the pro vincial-municipal structure to see what should be done to relate municipal responsibilities to municipal financial resources, because until we do something like that, we're going to find that this problem is not satisfactorily solved.

And I think that it is hazardous to the structure of municipal government that some of the municipal bodies and other local government bodies should be in a sense the pensioners of this government. That's not really a healthy situation in any respect and l, myself, don't like it. I'm sure they don't like it either, and it's something that will have to receive our attention. Now, I'm going to say this, that I do not know of any easy solution to this problem. It's one that's common to provinces throughout the country.

It's particularly pressing with respect -- I say this -- it's particularly pressing in the growing areas with large populations of children and of people coming in that have to be serviced, as well as in those areas where there may be an actual decline in the population. Now, Mr. Chai rman, I'm not in a position this. afternoon to make any statement of policy with respect to what action the government is going to take with respect to this. This is a matter which is now being considered by us .

But I think we would value the suggestions and the recommendations that members on all sides of the House might care to make in connection with this matter, because it is our belief that in the quite near future we're going to have to take some steps to come to grips with this, probably now, cer tainly cine of the most pressing problems the provincial and municipal governments jointly face. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, I listened with great interest to what the First Minister has stated.

I am possibly not surprised with his statement, although I am somewhat disappointed, I really expected that he would make such a statement. He has reiterated what he has told us, how much money he has given the municipalities through all kinds of ways, by increasing school grants. That may be so, but we must face the facts, and I believe he agrees with me, that the municipalities are in a very difficult position at the present time.

Possibly half of the money that comes from the government to the municipalities is given for school purposes, in teachers' salaries, and this is no help to the municipalities directly at all because their share of the salaries have increased also. The municipalities have been led into a costly system -- nobody can deny that -- a costly system. Transportation of students; transporta tion is rendering a service, but it is a costly proposition and it's not working fully well every where.

We've had storms this winter in many places where school children have missed many days of schooling, and it has had the effect of forcing the municipalities to spend a lot of money that they were not forced to spend previously. I know l, myself, am a taxpayer in a rural municipality and I'm told now by the school board that after consolidation has been made �y taxes will be increased by 10 to 12 mills. This means $50. 00 on a quarter

section to me as a taxpayer, as an owner of farm land, and I say that this is quite a load. And if you take a sec tion of land, four sections, that's $200. 00 . It is just the amount of money that the farmers will be receiving -- a farmer with a

section of land -- that he will be receiving from the federal government as an acreage payment. And this will go only for the increase in municipal taxes in the district that I'm in. It's becoming unbearable when you face the fact that you have to pay on farm land -- and not the best farm land in Manitoba; fairly good farm land, not the best at all, very hard, heavy land, heavy gumbo -- up to $3 .0 0 an acre. It's close to confiscation of land, and I say that this system of unconditional grants has been well received by the muni cipalities in this province.

It's based on the fact that the government has confidence in muni cipal men to spend their money wisely, and they have done so. The Mi nister has said so the April 25th, 1962 Page 2209

(Mr . Prefontaine, cont'd.) .... other day when introducing his estimates and I believe that there's no better system . It has been adopted by the government of the Province of Ont ario a couple of years after it was introduced in this province, and the amount there is more generous than in this province. And I believe that this system of helping the municipalities should have priority over possibly any other system of coming to the help of the municipalities.

There are many problems to be studied and they are being studied; they have been by the provincial-mu nicipal committee of 151, '52, 153; they are being studied now by the investigating committee of which Dr . Fisher is the chairman. The First Minister suggested that some further study should be made, but until studies are fully made and completed, until they get something, -- I think the municipalities at least get something as a result of these further studies -- that the sum allocated under this item should be increased. I know the worry of the Honourable the Minister of Education . He told us in the House .

I fully agree with him; it is a difficult problem. It's not a problem that we can .solve today but we can offer some relief to the municipalities by increasing this grant and I would certainly urge upon the government to reconsider the problem and.to try and increase the unconditional grants. The municipalities are looking forward for some relief. The municipal dollars are not going very far these days . They are being squeezed, too, like the farmers within the mu nicipalities, and they need assistance.

This is the best way to give them assistance , at the same time, we're expressing our confidence in these municipal men . MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, I welcome the statement of the Honourable the First Min ister this afternoon because I don't think anyone who's had the privilege of being in this Legis lature since the committee of 19 51 made it's report has rais.ed this point in this House more than I have , as to the neces sity of investigating into the circumstances surrounding the rela tionship between the province and the municipalities .

I want to remind my honourable friend the Member for Carillon, who has just spoken - I'm sorry it appears as though he 's leaving us -- I want to remind my honourable friend that the first resolution that I introduced into this House in the year 1954 was to ask the then govern ment of the day to set up a continuing committee on provincial-municipal affairs in order that we may have available at all times information regarding the relationship between these two respective jurisdictions.

My honourable friend this afternoon says to us, well, let 's increase the unconditional grants now until we have this study made . Had the govermnent of-which he was the Minister of Municipal Affairs taken the advice of a rookie legislator from the then con stituency of Kildonan-Transcona, we wouldn't have had him here saying today, "Le t's investi gate this problem." We would have had the full information before us so that there would be no excuse for the government not to take action.

So it is somewhat amusing to me to hear my hon ourable friend say, "Well in the meantime, while we're going to undertake an investigation, which will take some time, I appeal to the government to increase their unconditional grants. 11 I also listened with interest to the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain when he intro duced this amendment for the consideration of the committee . I agree with him most heartily in the first part that the former base to our municipalities -- the object of this, of course, Mr .

Chairman, is that no municipality will receive less in the unconditional grants than they have been receiving at least up until the last taking of the census . In respect of his second clause, I'm sure that the present Government of Manitoba will have under consideration the advisabil ity of increasing the grant. The former administration had that under consideration, and just prior to the calling of the general election in 1958, increased the grants over what they were before. So I'm sure my honourable friends opposite will have this under consideration. But I would suggest, Mr .

Chairman -- a reference has been made to the committee, the joint committee under the chairmanship of Dr . Fisher that is considering the question at least to some degree at the present time. We have raised the point, and I think it's a very valid point, that that committee that is carrying on the investigation at the present time have really no powers of recommendation to this House . I've appealed to the government in the past, and I do so again today, to take an active

part in setting up a committee that will be responsible to this body for its findings and for its recommendations. Now, we're often accused here in this particular group, of referring to the province to the west of us, Saskatchewan . But I want to say, Mr . Chairman that in the Province of Saskatche wan, as I think most, if not all, of the members of this Assembly know, that for the last four Page 2210 April 25th, 1962

(Mr . Paulley, cont'd .) ..•• or five years that they have had a continuing comm ittee on munici pal-provincial affairs, and that as a result of the studies that that comm ittee has made, this year in the Legislature of Sas katchewan concrete proposals were adopted in the Assemb ly to be given for the cons ideration of the resp ective municipalities as to whether in the Province of Saskatchewan they should adopt a county system of government, wherein the whole orbit of local admini stration, including school boards, should come under a municipal council -- not a muni cipal council but a county council .

Th ey've also suggested two or three other alternatives to this .

They're taking back right into the local areas concerned, a proposi tion as to whether or not you are prepared or would be agreeable to the setting up of a county system in your gener" al area w�th a re-definition or allocation of boundarie s; whether or not you want a type of coun ty system of government which will bring the operation of the school boards and the municipal administrations under one body; if you don't want this , you have another option; and this has been done in that province as the result of about five years of study and close co-opera tion be tween the Urban Ass ociation there, the Rural Municipal Associa tions, the school boards, school trustees, and they've all joined together .

Now at the prese nt time, in all due deference to tbe Commi ttee that is operating under Dr . Fisher, it is purely municipal men as I understand it, that are dealing with the problems. The other aspect, and a great expense to the local taxpay er, namely, sch ool boards , I don •t think are taking

part in these deliberations, and I think, Mr . Chairm an, it's necessa ry to have the united minds of all of the various levels of administration in to a general consideration of this very important factor. Now, the Honourable the First Minister -- and I join; I join; I don't -- I join with the Hon ourable Member for Turtle Mountain that there should be an increase now in the unconditional grant, and naturally I'm going to support the motion that he has before us -- but I do say, Mr .

Chairm an, unless we have a reallocation, a reallocation of tbe respo nsibilities, and also a re allocation of the financial resources of the various jurisdictions in the Province of Manitoba, that all we're going to have is from year to year before us a proposi tion to increase uncondition al grants, to increase the other grants that the Honourable the First Minister drew to our at tention. So I join, Mr.

Chairman, in welcoming the statement of the Honourable the Leader of this House, a recognition, a recognition that in the year 1962 the situation is different than it was in 1952 when the committee , which was a joint committee of municipal men an d provincial men, met, that it's a recognition of the fact the situation is different today . I sincerely trust and hope that the Government of the Province of Manitoba wastes no time in setting up a real investigating committee and that it works with despatch. In closing, I cannot help but once again sa y, Mr .

Chairman, that had the previous admin istration adopted, as I stated, the recomm endation of a rookie with his first res olution in this House , we would have had the answers to the problems that are facing the municipalities this year . MR. PREFONT AINE : Mr.

Chairman, I took great pleasure in listening to the Leader of the New Democ ratic Party, and I could not refrain from thinking that the honourable member was trying to attack the Liberal Party because he 's realizing that at the end of the presen t ses sion that his pa rty has gone nowhere during the session and he must dig the Liberal Party before the next term -- (Interjection) -- and he came to the rescue again of the Leader of the Government, by praising the Leader of the Government, although the Leader of the Govern ment has stated he will not approve the motion and the Leader of the NDP Party will approve the motion.

I would like to remind the Honourable the Member that in possi bly his first speech in the House, in 1953, he highly praised the previous administration for giving to the municipal men in 1953 just about all that they had asked from the then government at that time. We had no Hansard in those da ys, but I wish now that we had had a Hansard because I could read to this House the very nice speeches and nice words that he had to say about the then government at that time . He was very happy .

The then government in 1953 increased its grants by $4, 300 , OOO and moreover it took over from the municipalities five of the services they were providing . They were pa ying for TB; they were paying for Cancer Research; for Soldier Taxa tion Relief and for judicial districts; municipal commission er's leVY . The municipalities had passed that they should be relieved of these obligations . We condescended and we relieved them of this obligation and the honourable member was very happy with the government and he April 25th, 1962 Page 2211

(Mr . Prefontaine, cont' d.) .... said so, and I don't know, Mr. Chairm an. I don't remember him recommending, and I take his·.word that he possibly did recommend, that we should carry on the investigation. Of course, the government was always looking at these ma tters as the present government is . We had been working for three years together at the same table, like friends, six municipal men and six Cabinet Minist ers, and no report was ever produced in this province that was as accep table and so well received by all the people in this province . It did not lay on the shelf ac cumulating dust .

It was acted upon immediatel y and with good results, and I say that I am surprised to hear the Honourable Member today criticizing the previous ad ministrati on when he was praisi ng it so highly at that time . Now, I don't know if I should say any more with respect to what he has sai d . He 's inter ested in municipal affairs; he has been on a council; he was at that time, and knew very well that we were doing a good j.ob and he praised us for doing so. MR. PAULLEY: I don't want to enter into a debate with my honourable friend, the Mem ber for Carillon . I have no intentions of doing so .

I do want to say this , and I must confess - and you know, Mr. Chairman, sometimes it's hard for a.p olitician· to confess -- but I do con fess that I did say in my opening remarks as I recall it, on the introduction of my resolution -- -and I think if my honourable friend refers to the journals of 1954 he'l l find the resolution that I introduced -- I do . confess, Mr. Chairm an, that I did say to the government of that day that I appreciated the fact that they had adopted some of the recommendations that the government had accepted as the result of the investigating commi ttee that had been set up .

I confess that quite frankly, but Mr. Chairman, at that particular time and with that particular admini stra tion any grain of salt that could be extracted from the adminis tration had to be met with jubila tion and satisfaction, because it was so terribly hard to extract from them anything of any de gree whatsoev er. So I make this confession of saying -- (In terjection) -- and ''buttering up" if he wants to use that phrase or the Honourable Member for Lakeside wants to use the phrase, "buttering up" the government of the day.

They sure needed some buttering up, and if because of the fact that after having been mayor of a municipality for a number of years that had been struggling alone, that the finances of the province had been increased to a degree that some hand-off such as TB, such as municipal commi ssi oner's levy which cost the municipality two or three hundred bucks, was now going to be paid by the province instead of by the munici pal ity, sure , we as municipal men were glad at that time, but I say to my honourable . friend that if today I welcome the staterrient of the Honourable the First Minister that an investi gation is going to be held into all aspects of municipal-provincial relations, I'm not buttering .him up at all.

I'm just saying to him I'm happy to hear the First Minis ter of an administration in this province of Manitoba stand up and recognize the situation in '62 as far as this . And again I say that had the former administrati on followed my advice, we'd have had before us the informa tion that's required today. MR. DOW: Mr. Chairman, I just wish to clear up the figures the Honourable the First Minister has mentioned in regard to being final . The figures I have are pretty well the same figures as the figures that are used in the estimates, based on a Manitoba population of 921, 000.

I believe that's the figure that has been used and the figures that I have broken down are based on that figure, Sir, and if it 'll be any help to him , I'll be very glad to loan him this list . I have it broken down into municipalities '56- 61. If he wish ed to take a copy, fine, but I would like to have it back.

But it does show, as I mentioned before, a very distinct fact that the population is definitely moving from the rural parts to the bigger centres; and I think that, as has been said before, that definitely some thing should be established because, particu larly in the rural areas, when you get -- well at the present time, 84 of these municipalities will be receiving less money in '62 than they did in the previous five years and it does have a very de cided effect on the tax structure within that municipality.

And again, I would like this govern ment to take into consideration some move along this line because I'm sure that this is one of the moves that the rural taxpayer will appreciate about as much as anything that any legislative body can do. MR. M. N. HRYHORC ZUK, Q. C. (E thelbert Plains): Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that all of the rural members will be very disappoint ed in what the First Minister had to say to us in con nection with this proposed resolution . I don't altogether agree with him in his reference to our municipalities -- some _of them -- as being pensioners of this government.

After all, they're Page 2212 April 25th, 1962

(Mr . Hryhorczuk, cont'd .) •••. creatures of this government and they only have such powers as we give to them . If we change the base of taxation, which we could, then they could probab _)Y finance their requirements easier than they do today . I'm not altogether in agreement with the reasons he has given the Com mittee for the redis tribution of our unconditional grants .

If I understood him rightly, he stressed the reasons as being the increased populations in the cities, the need for further services and so forth, but he has conveniently overlooked the fact that when the population in the urban centres increased, the bases for taxation are widened also . There 's more housing needed; there 's greater indus trial development. If there wasn't a development, the population would not increase and the people would not be leaving the rural parts and coming in to the cities.

They only come be cause that's where they can obtain employment, and employment means a wider base for tax structure . So on a per capita basis , as any urban centre widens out and increases its popula tion, increases its housing, increases the asses sment, the per capita_cos t actually is reduced;

whereas in those rural areas where the population is decreased, the amount of taxes do not fall down on a per capita basis but are increased on a per capita basis . We note that this year the municipal taxes are way above what it has been at any time, in spite of the fact that the populations have dropped. So the argument that the rural areas have less expense because of the drop in population is fallacious . It just doesn't stand up . You have the same amount of miles of roads to build; you have the same number of streets to build in the villages and to maintain, whether the population is 200 or 250 .

It doesn't make any difference there . The per capita co st goes up and the base upon which the tax load is levied remains con stant, so if that is the only reason why this redistribution gives the urban centres mo re uncon ditional grants than the rural municipalities will receive, I'm afraid that that isn't a sufficient answer. MR. J. P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr . Chairman, I'll have to disagree with the Leader of the NDP. I think I noticed in his speech that he suggested that the former administration raised unconditional grants just before an election .

That may be true in the last instance, but I'd like to bring to his attention the fact that the unconditional grants was raised more than once, and I think the reason it was raised was because it proved so popular and acceptable to the different municipalities. I'll agree with the Honourable the First Minister that the government has, in the past, and is pres ently ass isting the municipalities of Manitoba to a considerable extent in the way of school grants , special grants and grants in aid, but all of these grants are tagged to a specific purpose .

The greatest appreciation of unconditional grants is the fact that the mun icipality, after it receives it, is free to use it whichever way they wish, and that's the greatest appreciation of it. In our unorganized or disorganized areas, of which I have one unorganized and one disor ganized, this unconditional grant is mos tly used for road improvement. Each school district sends a census of its population to the Department of Education and then they receive the un- . conditional grant. It becomes money of the school district .

Now if this school district decides to use it for improvement of roads, since the money is already in the hands of the school dis trict and we work on a 50/50 percent basis, therefore the government again matches this $3 . 00 per capita with another $3 . 00 . It builds up into $6 . 00 and it means quite a bit to the people in organized or disorganized areas , Now in my particular constituency -- I have the figures -- my constituency pretty well fol lows the lines of the different municipalities, and I have the figures for my own constituency .

In 1956 the total population of this constituency was 10, 875 according to the figures that the Honourable the First Minister has now from the Honourable Member from Turtle Mountain - it was 10 , 875. In 1961 it is 10, 212 . That's the complete constituency. That shows a decrease of 663 or slightly over six per cent, so there is no rise . Certainly in Emerso n constituency the unconditional grant -- the total unconditional grant will be decreaseq, and I don't think that the people of that constituency will be too happy.

I now say that I'll support the resolution brought in by my colleague because !'think it is the proper thing to do at this time . MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, again I will repeat that I was surprised with the statement made by the Leader of the NDP -- who has left the House , I believe . He expressed satisfaction with a statement made by the First Minister when the First Minister stated that he was sympathetic to the needs of the municipalities and that he felt that an investigation should April 25th, 1962 Page 2213

(Mr . Prefontaine, cont'd .) .... be made of the whole field . To me, this is not specific enough . It might satisfy the Leader of the NDP, but it doesn't satisfy me and I think the First Minister should be more specific and tell us what kind of investigation he would like to see; when he will get it going; and by whom it will be made . I would like mo re data. At the present time, it's a statement that he's in sympathy with the municipalities but nothing specific, nothing that we can put our fingers on .

I would like an announcem ent of a policy with respect to a study and I would like a study to be made soon -- as so on as possible . So I ask the Minister what will he do; when will he make this study; who will make it; and all the details that I feel that this House is entitled, if he's very serious when he suggests that such an investigation should be made . MR. ROBLIN: Mr . Chairman, if all those who have wished to speak on this have spoken, perhaps I could make one or two supplementary remarks in winding up our views on this . I don't think that I have very much to add to what I have already said.

I'm not going to make any announcement today that my honourable friend from Carillon reque sts . This matter is being considered at the policy level with respect to the government, and when an announcem ent can be made it will be made, but I'm not able to do so today. All I'm able to do today is to give you some idea of the lines o.n which our thoughts are mo ving. It's possibly very little consolation to the Honourable Member for Carillon or other members, or indeed of the general public, to be told that their per capita municipal taxes in this province are lower than in some other places .

I give this for the record, though I am conscious of the fact that it will please no one to know that that is the case, because everyone is very concerned about the tax he pays and naturally is not too much interested in the taxes some body else pays in another prov:j.nce. But in this province the average per capita municipal tax for the last figures available from the DBS show that the per capita tax in Manitoba is $104 . 94; in Saskatchewan it's $118 . 50; in Al berta it's $129 .92; and in Ontario it's $136 .0 0.

So that while that doesn't in any way take away from the arguments of those who are complaining about the weight of municipal taxes -- I wouldn't be so naive as to pretend that it does -- I give that information for the benefit of the comm ittee so that they may have it. The member for Ethelbert Plains and myself are in a little bit of an argument as to who is the worst off, the area with the declining population or the area with an increasing population. That is something which can be verified by the facts , if and when a study of the sort I recom mend has taken place .

I do know that the average taxation in the metro area is som ewhat high er than the average taxation outside metro, if that's any addition to the argument, but I don't think really I'd like to quarrel with him on that point because I think the whole question is one I would like to investigate . The Province of Saskatchewan, it is true , has had this commi ttee to which the Honourable Member for Radisson refers , and they've been working for some time and they have

an Act this year, which I have read, in which they are proposing·the establishment of the county system, etcetera, but I don't see any money in the Act. I don't think there's been any change in the grants to the municipalities in Saskatchewan on this account. I'm not really passing any judg ment on that, I'm me rely giving it as information. I think it is an organizational move more than anything else . It may very well be that an organizational move of some sort should be looked into here.

I know that the municipal men who are working are thinking about that prob lem , but I think something more than that is required when we come to grips with this question . We have to try and relate responsibilities with resourc es . That's the thing in a nutshell, and I don't think we'll solve it once and for all if we have a study of it. I think it will have to be re examined continuously, but it's out of joint at the present time and we're going to have to do something about it, · Now I wonder if there's anything else that would add to the discuss ion.

I don't want to re peat what I've said before, except to say that I agree with those who say that a study involving all aspects of the problem is required, not what just affects one type of local government . I think it does require a study of all aspects of it and that is somet hing that we will give. It's true, fthink it can be demonstrated that the contribution the province has made to local taxa tion has risen faster than local taxes have. We've kept ahead of them . Our grants have in creased faster than the weight of local taxation, but obviously it isn't good enough.

Obviously, that has not satisfied the people nor has it dealt with the problem . Although I make that state ment, because it's a m '.3-tter of fact that I think we should put it on the record, I come back to Page 2214 April 25th, 1962

(Mr . Roblin, cont' d.) .... my original point, namely, that we are not satisfied with things as they are. The ma tter is under study at a policy level with us and we hope that in due course we will be able to ma ke a statement as to what we propose to do . MR . HRYHO RCZ UK: Mr. Chairman, I just have a question. The First Minister was kind enough to give us compa rable figures in municipal tax load as to Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, I believe . Has he the same figures for 1958 ? MR. ROBLIN : These are the figures -- these are the DBS estimates for 1961; they are very recent figures. MR.

HRYHORCZ UK: You haven't the figures for 1958? MR. ROBLIN: No, I ha ven't, but they can be obtained from the same source , I'm sure . . . . . . . . • . . . . • • . • . . . . . Continued on next page . April 25th, 1962 Page 2215

MR .. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the First Minister gave us some information but I really hoped that we would be getting more information at this stage in committ ee . When the Throne Speech was introduced Mr. Chairman, the following was· the phrase used, this is on Page 1; ''Reflecting the population changes in the recent decennial census you will be asked to make provision for an increase in the gro ss amount of unconditional grants to municipalit ies , which should be of benefit to local taxpayers." Subsequent on that Mr .

Chairm an, many of the speakers , including myself, mentioned that this was very vague and unle ss this indicated an actual increase in the unconditional grants it would leave a number of areas in the province in a less favourable position than what they were before . We had hoped that the.M inister was going to announce today when we came along to the estimates that it was going to mean an in crease, but we find that it doesn't. This is a very serious matte r, Mr . Chairman. A number of the members have given results from their municipalit ie s. Obviously I checked those in my own constituency .

I find that in every case , every one of the municipalit ies -- that is the rural municipalitie s -- are down in population . I checked those of my neig hbour, The Minister of Education, who lives in one of the larger towns in the area, but his rural municipalit ie s, I find , are also down; Ochre River from 1561 in 1956 to 1379 in '61. And take the Rural Munici pality of Dauphin which is one of the bigger munici palities by population and one of the better ones, but even there the same thing happens, from 4296 in 1956 down to 3920 in 1961; and this is repeated time and time again all over the province .

And yet their problems , Mr. Chairman, are increasing; their costs are increasing; their needs are increasing. Now the First Minister says that certain other areas in the province are increas ing in population . Well and good. The proposal put forth by the Member from Turtle Mountain in no way would reduce the amounts that would be available to these because as their population grows they will be getting more in. total , and if the amount of the grant per capita is increased they will be getting still more; and this is excellent , thi s is desirable .

Our whole point is that the municipalitie s have to have more money. There has to be a redistribution of inc ome and a redistribution possibly of responsibility. But his must be acted upon. We can't keep on go ing and saying: "This is a problem, we're looking at it , but we are unable to do anything about it yet. " The time to act Mr. Chairman, is not just before the next election; the time to act is now . The government is proposing certain changes , but they're not proposing any increase ; yet they admit that the need and the problem is there .

We 're saying; "let's· get on with the job, let's not wait until just before the election and make an announcement of an increa se." Now the Leader of the NDP had something to say about this matt er. Well if he'll go back and check the actions in the matter of this unconditional grant , he will find that the pre vious government introduced it first of all , then when they saw how well it was operating, made at least two incre ases that had nothing to do with election. They were brought in long before an election was called. If my honourable friend would check that he will find that that is the case .

However , I'm not inte rested in discussing the past on these matters . He constantly is. I'm inte rested in the situation of the municipalit ies today; and they are by and large in a diffi cult position. The income of many of the residents has been going down. This is particularly true in the farm areas , particularly true in this past year , and yet their needs are increasing.

And I say to the government , as I said when this statement was first made in the Throne Speech debate , it 's not sufficient merely to re-allocate these funds between municipalitie s, which is all that's being done in thi s case -- oh for the portion going back over the past five years -- but tha t's a statutory provision, that will not change the position. Once that one's over with next year a lot of the municipaliti es will be receiving substantially less.

As I mention ed , the four that I'm concerned with in my own area, the two of my neighbour, and this is repeate d in 84 of the municipalitie s in this province . They will next year be in a substantially inferior position to that in which they find themselves now ; and this should be acted upon now . MR. ROBLIN: I don't think there's much that I can add to what I've said because my honourable friend has just restated the arguments that have been well stated by some of his colleagues and others , and, indeed, by myself in part; but I think I should just make this brief comment .

First of all I think that the statement in the Throne Speech was a very accurate reflec tion of the facts . I don_'t think there's any dispute about that and we're not deviating at all from Page 2216 April 25th, 1962

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd .) ••.• the statement we made there. Secondly I would like to say that the Unconditional Grants Act has been on the statutes book for some few years . There's no doubt in anybody's mind, in the municipalities or , in deed, in this House as to how it works. This is the way in which it was set up and it was set up by my honourable friends in this resp!')ct, so that we understand clearly how it works. Now I want to stress again that iiNie"aling with the matter of local finances it isn't suf ficient to -say j;hey should have more than unconditional grants .

Maybe they should, but one has to-consider as well the other associated grants , and when l say that has gone up over $25 mil lion in the last four years, that's a pretty considerable effort. Even if the unconditional grants themselves remain at $3 . 00 per capita, an increase of over $25 million per month in direct and indirect aids to municipalities and other spheres does represent a very sincere and con siderable effort to try and assist them .

So I wouldn't like anyone to think that they're depen dent alone on increases in this unconditional grant in order to get provincial help, because that is not the case; these other grants apply. And just one further thing, if the House is interested in knowing, the last time the un conditional grants were increased was in 1958 , when they were increased to $3 .0 0; they were formerly $2 .39. They were increased to $3 .0 0 in 1958 . It was an election year. I presume it is just a coincidence. I make no allegations . MR , MOLGAT: •••• before that, Mr . Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would give that.

Let's have the full history of the increases. MR . ROBLIN: I think it was the last election year but I haven't got the figure in front of me. The Honourable Member for Lakeside shakes his head. He knows and I take his word for it. I'm not interested in making any charges and I'm not alleging anything improper ; all I'm saying is that the last increase was in 1958 . MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if my honourable friend the Leader of the Liberal Party would permit me to correct a statement that he made.

I have before .us, or be fore me , the statutes of 1957 wherein the bill "An Act to provide for the making of certain grants to municipalities on behalf of persons in unorganized territories" was assented to on April the 5th in the year 1957 , at which time , if I recall correctly, following that the Lieuten ant-Governor7in-Council set the rate -- I believe it was $2 . 50 -- (Interjection) -- $2 . 39 per person, and that was changed once, if I recall correctly, just prior to the election of 1958 . MR. PREFONTAINE: •..• one year after. MR . PAULLEY: My honourable friend from Carillon says one year after.

I accept; possibly that would be the more palatable way to take it insofar as my honourable friend is concerned. MR . FROESE: Mr . Chairman, I think that none of the municipalities are as hard hit as those that are in the non-division areas; probably not because of the decline in population but because of the extra monies that they have to raise, special taxes to make up for the loss in grants because the penalty that is put on non-division areas and I feel that I can hardly sup port the resolution.

I feel that the municipalities which have non-division school districts in their particular area are the hardest hit and I feel these areas receive more support than they do receive presently. MR . CAMPB ELL: Mr. Chairman, I would have spoken some little time ago but I didn't want to get to my feet while the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party was ab sent from the House or over continuing his visits on the other side of the House . I thought it was best that he be in his seat so that he could attempt to refute any of the arguments that I raise if he wishes to try to.

Because, I'm sorry to find that my honourable friend who pre tends to head a very progressive movement continually lives in the past, so far as his contri butions to the debates in this House are concerned. (Interjection) I'm the one that gets remind ed a lot about the past. I bring it up only because my honourable friend evidently needs some education regarding it. As far as my honourable friend is concerned history commenced at the time this area out east of the City was so fortunate as to elect him to the Legislative Assembly .

We hear so frequently of the various -resolutions that he has proposed here, that I must confess that I don't find them too interesting hearing them the first, or second or third time, but when they get rehashed several times, several sessions, I have to rise once in a while in protest. My honourable friend on this occasion was urging as a rookie member -- and he sure .. April 25th, 1962 Page 2217

(Mr . Campbell , cont' d.) . . • • still has a lot of these attributes -- he was urging that there should be a continuing review of these affairs . Well I'm going to adopt his posture and start patting the present government on the back, because does he think that any government that sits in the Province of Manitoba. doesn't have a continuing review of these questions.

Even the pre sent government -- even the present government , because these matters simply force them selves upon anyone, and continuing reviews , which my honourable friend would suggest would have solved this problem, wouldn't have made the situation a great deal different to what it is now . What is needed is , of cou rse , a periodic review of the situation ; and it's not hard to find the trouble . There isn't very much wrong in the situation that a few dollars, rather a lot of dollars, quite a lot of dollars -- (Interjection) -- yes, it take s quite a lot of dollars to do this .

That's what's needed to help the situation and the whole question is: where do you get the dol lars? Who'll put them up? Well, to once again educate my honourable friend on the point that completely escapes him so regularly, is that we put them up, the taxpayers -- that's who put them up -- and if we just keep that in front of us why we probably wouldn't be advocating as many of the schemes that he thinks are so desirable.

But, the further point is that even though we the taxpayers put them up -- for there's no magic way of getting this money -- the other point is that it does inake a difference from where you get them; which taxpayers you get the money from .

The whole point, as I see it , of the provincial government helping out the municipalities in these times of their troubles is that you remove the tax to some extent, or keep it from increasing at least, upon the home owner, the property owner , and transfer it to these other areas where we get some of our major re venues -- from the income tax, the corporation tax and the state tax -- and then in our own area where we get it from the liquor and the gasoline tax and the automobiles and amusements and so on.

The whole point is that in these times , I think a good case can be made for the pro perty owner who has , in my opinion , been driven to the saturation point as far as taxation is concerned, relieve him by taking it into some of these other spheres. And so I say to my hon ourable friend , and to the First Ministe r, that what is needed, in my opinion , is that we must go even further than that and have -- and this has been advocated I think by my honourable friend, as well as ourselves -- have a still wider re-assess ment of this question.

What is really needed in my opinion is a federal-provincial taxation review , because I think that even the provinces have to look further afield for revenues. Goodness knows , it' s not too easy a job for the federal government either in these times. I suppose I would be branded as a rank conservative and a backward looking, unprogres sive person if I suggested that sometime , somebody has got to start looking at the question of expenditures. But tha t's tremendously unpopular these times, Mr . Chairman, and nobody listens to that kind of talk anymore .

My honourable friend says that we didn't do anything very much when we were on that side of the House , and we tried to help out in this municipal-provin cial situation by giving only -- what is the amount -- giving only three and three quarter mil lion -- that that was just a sop according to him. Although seeing that we were the government at that time , it was sufficient to elicit his compliments and congratulations. But that wasn't enough. And it's not enough now -- anything tha t's proposed, to suit my honourable friend , of course . I suggest, Mr .

Chairman -- I agree with the First Minister -- this is a broad question .' I'm sure that the First Minister when he was speaking today about the problems that the areas that are gaining population face as differentiated from those that are losing population -- and both have their problems -- that he likely has found at the federal-provincial conferences that the highly industrialized and heavy populated provinces urge that point of view very effectively ill front of the federal-provincial conference . Because , I remember, both in the time of Mr. Drew and in the time of Mr.

Frost, how Ontario pointed out with a good deal of logic, the huge problems that they faced because of the tremendous influx of people and the growth of their community. There are these problems. But I must say -- I come back to the argument of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain -- that this is particularly difficult for the rural dis tricts where they are faced with these continuing expenditures and with decreasing population.

And it seems to me that this very excellent provision that was made a few years back -- my honourable friend tries to pretend that it was just because an election was coming along -- but we -- No , I don't mean the First Minist er, I mean my honourable friend to the left -- (Interjec tion) '.__ Yes, the fact t)lat it was made in 1957 , I suppose won't -- No, the first increase was Page 2218 April 25th, 1962

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd .) • in 157 -- (Interjection) -- Yes, the initial introduction of this new plan was '5 7 and my honourable friend finds some food for speculation in the fact that it was raised from $2 .39 to $2 .5 0 just befor_e an election. Well that wasn't too difficult to explain. In those days we took some pains to establish our budgetary position pretty care fully and what we had done the first time was to pick out a figure of $2 million, if I remember correctly, as the amount that we could handle in that particular year.

And then it happened that that worked out at $2 .39 per capita and it was thought -- my friend will say a very measly increase -- but still it was thought that for the purposes of having it a little more of a round figure as far as the per capita contribution was concerned that we would raise it to $2 .5 0. But that in the eyes of my friend is -- $3 . 00 not $2 . 50 -- $3 . 00. This though, I think, has been of tremendous vali.te to the municipal people because as the Honourable Member for Emerson has said, this gives them some elbow room.

So many of these grants that they get are conditional grants in order to get the money -- and this applies to the huge amount that my honourable friend the First Minister's been talking about today -- in order to get those amounts of money a great deal of money has to be spent from the municipal sources. And true, they get large grants , but they require taxation -- not all of them, no, but a good many of them. Even in the increased school grants and so many others.

But, the major virtue as I always saw it of this one was that it did give :to the municipality some elbow room, and several of the municipalities -- my honourable friend has said that in his area, they were mostly used for schools -- (Interjection) -- school roads, In some areas they were used for roads in general. In some areas they were used for ordinary school grants; and in some others for ma jor bridges and this sort of thing. The point being that .it gave them some room in which to operate and I think it was a good program no matter when it came.

My only reason for making a recommendation now would be to suggest to the government that they should keep in front of the federal government -- and I think that the one that is com ing in now will be more receptive to the suggestion than the one that is just on its way out -- as similarly the government that will soon be back on that side of the House will be more active in pressing for a revision of these programs -- that this area of tax discussi on has to be widened even beyond the municipal-provincial field, because it's an all-pervasive thing and we've got to deal· with it, I think, on a national level.

Now I've gone and spoiled the speech that I was going to make on Metro, maybe it was spoiled any way, but some of the things that I was going to say there have probably been said now. But the whole question here is that we need some money injected into the municipalities to relieve the burden and at least to keep the burden from rising still more on primarily the home owner and the other real estate man; I don't know of any place where that is more need ed than in these rural municipalities that unfortunately, under the circumstances that exist are losing some of their population. MR . CHAIRMAN: Question.

The question of the motion of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, that this government give consideration to the advisability of

(1) Amending

section IV of the Unconditional Grants Act by providing that a floor be placed on the minimum . grant payable to any municipality based on the amount payable to that municipality in the year 1957 ;

(2) That the unconditional per capita grant be substantially increased. Mr. Chairman put the question ·and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR . MOLGAT : I request a standing vote, Mr . Chairman. A standing vote was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas - 17 ; Nays - 29. MR . CHAmMAN: I declare the motion lost. Resolution 13 -- Pass ? MR . MOLGAT : Mr . Chairman, I'd like to ask some questiori.:: of the Minister on the operation of this particular grant now.

This will mean that in view of the motion that was just defeated that some of the municipalities will be receiving less from unconditional grants than they have in the past. Is that correct? MR. ROBLIN: That's my honourable friend's ·statement. As I say, I have not the figures in front of me, but it follows that if their population is less now than it was five years ago they will receive less under this grant. MR . MOLGAT : Can the Minister indicate what, if any, changes are proposed insofar as the unorganized portions of the province and the handling of the unconditional grants?

We had a discuss ion on that last year. I know it's a difficult question, and yet there should be some .N>ril 25th, 1962 Page 2219

(Mr. �olgat, cont'd.) • . . formula by which it might be a little easier for them to get the grants and that it might be used in a more practical fashion. MR . ROBLIN: Mr . Chairman, that is a well taken point and after my honourable friend raised it last year, we .had an investigation into it and we proposed to bring in a small amend ment to the Unconditional Grants Act to take care of it . This is one of the three or four bills the House has not yet seen. I mustn't talk about it, but I can give you an outline of what's in it.

Namely, that where we can identify a local authority such as a school district or a local govern ment dist rict or any body that's officially established, naturally they get the money in these areas . But we have found that in a few areas we have no one to give .the money to and conse quently it has been languishing in one of these trust funds that I talked about here, and the pro posal will be that the Department of Municipal Affairs or some other duly constituted authority would have the authority to spend that money in the interests of the local people such as to buil d a road or whatever else they want.

To organize some means of actually putting this mon ey to use rather than have it accumulate in trust funds. There isn't a great deal of money in that respect, but some; and it's not doing anybody any good and we desire to put it to use . Secondly, with respect to Indian Reserves, we have found that there has been a tendency up •til recently to put these funds in the capital accounts of the Bands and that means they only get the interest from them and they hardly ever get to spend it at all , so they might just as well not have it .

We propose to take authority to spend that money ourselves in consultation with the Bands directly, rather than have it go into their capital funds . In that connection I have a letter from the Department in Ottawa saying that if we don't wish them to go into capital funds they'll see that they're not . But just the same we'd like to take the power under this Act to make sure that the money for Indian Bands in these places where we can 't really find any pro per local authority to spend the money can be put to some use rather than remain in trust funds . MR. MOLGAT : Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Minister for his information in this regard because it has been, while he says not a large sum of money, to those areas involved it is an important sum of money, because by and large they are low income areas , obviously have no municipal organization, and very often this can be the base for the start on some local public works in many of these items . So , I'll wait until we see the Bill . I'm glad to see that the change is being made. Insofar as the Indian Bands, Mr. Chairman, coul<l the Minister indi cate, who in the government or through which department this will be handled?

How are we going to contact the Indian Band, who will be doing this and determining what will be done? MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I'd rather leave that 'til the Bill comes in because I can't remember the exact wording of it. But I assume that it'll probably be somebody like the Department of Municipal Affairs who is used to dealing with these relatively unorganized territories. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 13 , passed? MR. PAULLEY : Mr. Chairman, just before we leave Treasury, I'd like to raise a point if I may.

I notice that there is no allocation in the estimates for this year for an increase to the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba, and I hope that I have the indulgence of the Committee to say a word or two in comi.ection with this . -- (Interjection) -- Yes, that is the purpose, Mr. Chairman, that I rise from my seat. I note from the media of the press that there had been a request from the Manitoba Government Employees' Associa tion for a consid eration of an increase in their salaries and wages .

I think if I remember correctly, awhile back while dealing with the Department of Secretary Treasurer the question was raised by my self as to what the inclination of the government was respecting the request of the employees . The Honourable the First Minister, Mr. Chairman, has just indicated across to me that he would be glad to make a statement regarding this. I would be glad to hear his statement. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, it' s not a definitive statement, I'm afraid, but I'll give the Committee an account of where we stand.

If my memory is correct, in last year's esti mates there were two substantial improvements made in the terms and conditions of the ser vice here. First that there was an increase in pay of rather substantial amount; and secondly, there was a very considerable improvement in the pension plan, both of which I think generally met with the approval of members of the Civil Service. - This year there have been no major changes of that sort .

There has , of course , been the usual increase due to the increments which are available to civil servants and that has added about half a million to six hundred Page 2220 April 25th, 1962

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.) •••• thousand dollars to our wage bill. So while there has been no change in the basis of the pay of the Civil Service, there has been a very considerable increase in costs. Nevertheless, I must acknowledge that the Civil Service Association have prepared some material in connection.with their claim that they are now entitled to a further raise in the basi,c standard of pay and there may be other matters that they're concerned about, and they have had preliminary discussions with the Provincial Secretary.

The way the matter stands at the present is that they have asked to discuss .the matter with myself and others in respect of this proposal and we've not been able to meet because we've been simply too busy recently to consider this matter . But I do expect that quite shortly after the House rises and things settle down a bit, that we will be entering into negotiations with the Civil Service in this re spect.

But I know that the honourable member would really not expect me to give any indica tion of the outcome of those because it's just at that stage now where they are anxious to make their proposals and we've undertaken to consider them at the first opportunity. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, I thank the Honourable First Minister for his state ment. I merely say as I stated before the request of the civil servants be given every consid eration, as he indicates that it will. I pointed out previously in the committee on another de- - partment, Mr.

Chairman, the fact of considerable fluctuation or changing, within our staffs -- of the opinion that some of this, at least, is due to the variance in salary rates with outside industry. I know that I join with everybody else in this committee in saying that it is desirable for the Province of Manitoba to have stabilized staff and. I trust to the good judgment of the First Minister and his Cabinet to do whatever is possible to see that the employees are satis fied in a financial way as they are in working conditions . MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Chairman , I must say that the Civil Service Association are vigor ous negotiators in connection With salary changes and I think that's a healthy situation.

We have experienced -- although there's naturally been differences of opinion -- we have exper ienced, I think, good relations indeed with the staff in Manitoba, and while this is not the sub ject for debate this afternoon, I do like to take advantage of the opportunity of expressing my contention that we have a splendid Civil Service in this province , and that while we may never be able to meet their full requests with respect to pay, we do trust that we can be reasonable in the inatter and will do our best to arrive at an accommodation which they will agree is reasonable under the circumstances.

These are matters for negotiations. We hope for the best. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to point out to the committee that Item 1 was left open- MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, is it the intention to call Page 32, Public Debt? MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, that's not called, it's not - - MR. MOLGAT: I didn't think it was , Mr. Chairman. Well then I think that leaves us with some.information due to come, is it not, on some of those items, or has it been suppUed?

I have a note here that we 're to get a breakdown on the Manitoba Power Commission and the Manitoba Hydro -- there's a decrease there -- and also on the other loans and investments . That is Items 1 (b) , 2, 3, 4. MR. ROBLIN: The decrease for the Commissions is because that some of that debt which was a short term floating debt at the time the last estimates were made out, has now become a direct debt of the utility guaranteed by the province. That is the reason why we have that change in that particular respect . What was the other question? MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, on Item 1 (b) 4, Other Loans and Investments -- due to have a breakdown on those . There's a fairly substantial increase. MR. ROBLIN: I think I may have that right here. I'll search for it, but if I haven't I'll see that my honourable friend gets it. I suggest Mr. Chairman that we should now proceed to consider the capital estimates, if that's the wish of the committee ? MR. CH AIRMAN: Item 1 passed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, are you on -- oh I see, Item 1 - - MR. CHAIRMAN:

Schedule A, Utility requirements, 1. Manitoba Telephone System. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, the various ministers would probably like to make a short introductory explanation of these amounts . As members will notice having perused these capital estimates that by and large they follow the pattern that we've been familiar with in last few years. The new item is the one with respect to the Public Housing Program of April 25th, 1962 Page 222 1

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.) •••• $1 ,1 00, 000; but other items follow the pattern that members are accustomed to and the Ministers can: give explanations and do their best to answer any questions on the particular points. MR. CHAIRMAN: Utility Requirements - 1. HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q.C. (Attorney-General)(Fort Garry): Mr . Chairman, - with respect to the $12-1 /2 million shown for Manitoba Telephone System, I can give the hon ourable members of the committee some general information with respect to these require_ meilts .

These involve underground conduits , Winnipeg exchange; underground cable, Winnipeg; aerial cable and exchange lines , Winnipeg; buildings and land in Winnipeg. Would my honour able friends like the actual breakdown and amounts for these? Buildings and land; rural lines; provincial exchange; planned provincial central office equipment; provincial central office equipment, Winnipeg; toll lines, long distance ; toll equipment, long distance; radio telephone communications ; microwave radio relay equipment; subscriber station equipment; automobiles, trucks, tools and mechanized equipment, office furniture.

The total amount required will be $18 million with the total amount required to be borrowed being $12 ,5 00, 000 as shown here; the balance

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-79
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 79.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9c3b067ed764ed62a3b79542cbd9b90d9ea936ae

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).