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May 11, 1992

35th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

BILL MCNEIL

Mr Gilles E. Morin (Carleton East): I wish to pay tribute today to a man who has made quite an impact on thousands of lives. I am referring to Bill McNeil, host of the popular CBC radio program Fresh Air. I know Mr McNeil personally and I have had the pleasure of listening to his excellent program since 1970.

Bill McNeil was a friend to many who tuned in on Saturday and Sunday mornings. His program was much more than just a breath of fresh air. It was a familiar presence, reassuring, and it always accentuated the positive. It presented the good side of life. I don't think we can ever hear too much good news.

Mr McNeil believed that the listeners' interests mattered. He asked his audience what it wanted to hear and complied with its wishes. He talked about the way things were, about the good old days. He also profiled great Canadians. He drew attention to people who, in his view, built this country.

I count Bill McNeil among the great Canadians. His wit, his commentary and his generosity of spirit have left an unforgettable mark upon those who shared the Saturday and Sunday mornings with him.

There are so many ways a person can contribute to his or her society. In his own special manner, Bill McNeil made his corner of the world just a little bit brighter. It saddens me that in these times of frequent turbulent change, another familiar voice is fading away.

I really enjoyed listening to his show. Bill, I wish you a happy retirement.

ORANGEVILLE FOOD BANK

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel): I would like to make members of this Legislature aware of the opening and incorporation of the non-profit charitable organization, the Orangeville Food Bank: Caring for the Community.

This group of 15 on the hard-working board of directors has banded together to form a non-profit organization to help the people of Halton, Caledon and Orangeville. The sad statement is that we need food banks to help make ends meet in these tough economic times. The committed and combined individuals of the Orangeville Food Bank are here to help out families in need.

This non-profit organization also needs our help. They have put together a depot for dropping off groceries and moneys to get the food bank started. If you'd like to help out with either a donation of non-perishable foodstuffs or money to help get them started, please drop by 78 Centennial Road in Orangeville.

The food bank will officially open on May 23 to serve the people of Caledon, Alton and Orangeville. They would appreciate your support. In these tough economic times, we need to work together to see the Orangeville Food Bank serve 100 families within Caledon, Alton and Orangeville.

I commend the board of directors and wish them well in their commitment to make Orangeville, Caledon and Alton a better place to live for everyone.

FOOD DRIVE

Mr Gordon Mills (Durham East): In the last war everyone was encouraged to dig for victory and plant vegetables to share with others. Today we are in another war, the war against the recession, and once again we can turn to the garden for help.

In my constituency of Durham East we are launching a community garden food-share program. This program, put into place by my constituency assistants, is to ask all gardeners to plant a little extra this year and to share that extra produce with others in the community. The produce produced by local gardeners will be going to area hostels, emergency shelters, emergency residences and food banks.

Another option I'm asking people to think about is, if they have a spare piece of ground in their backyard, to offer that to someone to grow vegetables and maintain it.

This innovative food-share program allows for many ways in which we can pull together to help those less fortunate than ourselves. Today, through the debate on television here, I'm encouraging all residents across Ontario to dig, to plant and to help others who are less fortunate in this severe recession.

PORT WELLER DRY DOCKS

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): It was with justifiable pride and satisfaction that the employees of Port Weller Dry Docks witnessed the christening of the Jiimaan, the ferry built at the St Catharines facility to serve Pelee Island. As usual, the vessel was produced within budget, on time and with the outstanding quality for which Canadian shipbuilding and engineering has become so well known.

It was more than parochial pride that caused me to support the designation of Port Weller Dry Docks as the builder of this vessel when I was a member of the previous Liberal government, and it was more than working to ensure that residents of my community would gain employment that prompted me to urge the new government to proceed with this project. I knew what every objective observer of the shipbuilding industry in Canada knows, that Port Weller Dry Docks can be counted upon to produce a quality product, within schedule, within budget and within the specifications of the customer, in this case the taxpayers of Ontario.

While federal government contracts are awarded to facilities elsewhere that are often over the tendered price, late in production and of questionable quality, Port Weller is passed over for apparent political reasons. We would welcome more provincial government business and at least our fair share of federal government business at a shipbuilding operation where we have the expertise, the experience and the commitment to produce the very best for the customer -- Port Weller Dry Docks.

DEVELOPMENT IN RENFREW AND PERTH

Mr Leo Jordan (Lanark-Renfrew): I rise today to recognize the government for having met with Mayor Howard Haramis of Renfrew to work out an acceptable substitute for the provincial transfer of the Ontario Heritage Foundation along with 60 jobs to that community.

As reported, the government will provide up to $3 million over a four-year period to assist the mayor, council and the industrial commission to promote Renfrew as a manufacturing and tourist centre.

More important, the government has recognized the mayor for putting together a marketing team made up of council and industrial commissioners that is second to none in the valley. The have worked together with the Capital Hill Group to establish an industrial strategy that will lead Renfrew and area into a well-based, modern and prosperous community. They deserve the financial assistance, and I compliment the members involved for their

part in negotiating a final solution in replacement for the provincial heritage foundation.

I am also pleased to announce that the Perth Great War Memorial Hospital emergency inpatients unit project has received Ministry of Health funding for the $17-million project. This is great news for the community and the hospital's board of directors who started this project in 1981.

I congratulate the people in Renfrew and Perth for providing the leadership that received recognition at the provincial level for the benefit of all concerned.

CHARLES ALFRED STRANGE

Mr Brad Ward (Brantford): I rise today to recognize former Brantford MPP Charles Alfred Strange. Charles Strange died Monday May 4, 1992. He was a resident of Simcoe, Ontario, and aged 82.

Mr Strange represented Brantford for the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation, known as the CCF, from 1943 to 1945. In fact, he was the first CCF member elected in the city of Brantford. Mr Strange moved with his family to Simcoe in 1947 and was employed at the American Can company. American Can was later sold and was known as Ball Packaging before it closed last year. He worked in personnel at American Can and helped out with the bowling team. He also organized the children's Christmas party. Charles Strange was very active in the community.

Mr Strange was a long-time member of the St John Ambulance and also helped revitalize the Simcoe and District Humane Society. Charles was a person who shared of himself. His way of dealing with problems was to sit in on a discussion, listen, then help out and put everything into focus. He was a good man and an excellent representative for the working people in Brantford at Queen's Park.

Mr Strange is survived by his wife Olive, his daughter Joan and her husband John of Waterford. He is also survived by grandchildren David, Lynn and Michael Walker. He will be missed.

TOW-TRUCK INDUSTRY

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Ottawa South): I want to draw the House's attention to a tragedy which took place in my community, in the hope that the lessons it offers will not be lost on us.

A short while ago, Kevin Keefe, a 36-year-old father of infant twins, was driving to work where he was to work the night shift. Unbeknownst to Mr Keefe, a heavy steel cable was stretched taut across the road in front of him. Attached to one end of the cable in a ditch was a truck. The other end of the cable was attached to the towing rig on a tow truck which was in the process of towing the truck out of the ditch. No flares were on the road to warn of the cable's presence. No flagpersons wearing reflective clothing or waving lights were present. The cable tore the roof off Mr Keefe's truck and he died instantly.

The jury which heard the evidence relating to that fateful night learned that the tow-truck industry is the only emergency response industry in Ontario that is not regulated. The jury made the following recommendations to us: that mandatory training and certification programs be developed for tow-truck operators, that safety and traffic control procedures be established for tow-truck operators, and that the laws governing minimum lighting requirements for tow trucks be reviewed.

My constituent, Mr Keefe's father, has contacted me to express his earnest desire that we, the members of this House, ensure that his son's death not be in vain.

I ask the members of government, particularly the Minister of Transportation and the Attorney General, to carefully examine the jury's recommendations and take the necessary steps to prevent the recurrence of any further accidents of this nature.

I also take this opportunity to extend our deepest sympathies to Mr Keefe's family.

POLICE WEEK

Mr Robert W. Runciman (Leeds-Grenville): Today marks the beginning of Police Week. On behalf of the Conservative Party, it's a pleasure to salute the accomplishments and dedication of the police officers of Ontario. They stand second to no one in the world in efficiency, professionalism and fairness. Without them our civilized, tolerant and progressive way of life would not be possible. They and the people of Ontario must, however, view Police Week 1992 with very mixed feelings.

Our police have to do their jobs while dealing with a government that second-guesses their actions on a regular basis; a government whose Premier chose to talk extensively about racism in relation to the shooting of a suspected drug dealer, putting forward sly innuendoes that the Metropolitan Toronto Police were racist despite the total lack of evidence of racial motive; a government whose Attorney General bemoans the fact that he and his staff were unable to find any justification for re-laying charges against two Peel region officers found not guilty in the shooting death of a man driving a stolen car.

It's nothing short of disgusting that at the very time police are being faced with increased levels of crime such as assaults, drug use, drug-related crimes and street gangs, the government of Ontario is turning its back on the police.

Ordinary citizens, in marking Police Week, can continue to speak up on behalf of the police, or the NDP and various self-styled organizations claiming to speak for large segments of society will irresponsibly damage police morale, severely handicap their ability to fight crime and ultimately damage public safety.

VISITORS

Mr George Mammoliti (Yorkview): Honourable members, I would like to welcome a very special group of people visiting our Legislature today. Joining us today in the east gallery are individuals from my riding of Yorkview. They soon hope to become Canadian citizens.

As you know, one must learn a great deal about Canada's culture and its institutions in order to be successful at the citizenship hearings. I am very happy to offer classes in my constituency office to help prepare candidates for this important moment. These students have worked very hard towards achieving their goal. They have taken the time to attend classes weekly to learn about our great country.

Fellow members, please join me in commending their efforts and wishing them the very best of luck at their hearings. I would also like to thank the instructor, Ms Terry Fernandes Castro, for her hard work and dedication in preparing her students.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): To all members in the House, I invite you to welcome to our assembly this afternoon a very special group of visiting parliamentarians. We have with us today parliamentarians who are here to study the parliamentary process from the parliaments of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, the Russian Federation and the Ukraine. Please welcome them very warmly to our chamber.

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Carleton): I'd like to seek unanimous consent to pay tribute to a former member of this House, Jimmie Allan.

The Speaker: Do we have unanimous agreement? Agreed.

JAMES NOBLE ALLAN

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Carleton): It's with great honour that I stand today and pay the final respects of our party to James Noble Allan, or Jimmie Allan as he was known to his friends and colleagues in this Legislature and his friends in his riding. He died Saturday at the age of 97.

He was first elected as a Progressive Conservative member for the riding of Haldimand-Norfolk in 1951 and sat in this House till 1975. He had the honour of serving under three distinguished premiers: Leslie Frost, John Robarts and Bill Davis.

During his career as a provincial legislator, James held many posts. In 1955 he became the Minister of Highways at a time when highways were politics and "highways" was the word of the future for Ontario. He oversaw a budget of $200 million and 8,000 employees, and in doing so created more than 10,000 miles of Ontario highways. This was the largest single department in the Ontario government during that period of time.

From 1958 until 1966, James was the Treasurer of Ontario. Although he introduced the first sales tax in Ontario, at 3%, he was also the last Treasurer to report a surplus budget, Mr Laughren, of more than $28 million. It would amount to much more than that in today's terms.

Jim was an active member in his community. He served on church and hospital boards, on the municipal councils of the townships of Canborough and Dunnville, as mayor of Dunnville and as a past warden of Haldimand county.

In 1967, Jim was appointed chairman of the Niagara Parks Commission, which he held until 1988 when he was well into the 90th year of his life. During his years as the "czar of the parks," he guided it through a period of expansion by applying common sense and tight-purse policies.

I can remember hearing and talking to some members of the commission, and he refused to give them a pay increase over any period of years, and I think they were being paid a mileage allowance of something like eight or nine cents in 1988 or 1989 when most people were being paid much more. He had only one answer: "If you want to sit on the Niagara Parks Commission, you either do it as an honour or you don't sit on the board." He was awarded yet again by being appointed the honorary chairman of the Niagara Parks Commission, a position he held until his death on Saturday.

James Allan had a colourful political career. He was highly respected and liked by members of all parties. He was honoured for his outstanding service several times. He was named an honorary Mohawk chief by the Six Nations Indians, a 113-acre park near Dunnville has been named after him, and on the occasion of his 90th birthday the Burlington Bay Skyway bridge was renamed the Burlington Bay James N. Allan Skyway.

For the past 17 years, members of my party and friends have held a birthday party for Jim Allan each year in November. The large number of members and former members and former political allies says a lot about the respect that Jim Allan had during his political life.

I can only remember that a year and a half ago at his birthday party he was as up-to-date with the political issues as anyone in this Legislature, at least on that side of the House. I think his death is the loss of a great politician and, most of all, a loss of a great friend to our party and to members of this Legislature.

Hon Floyd Laughren (Deputy Premier, Treasurer and Minister of Economics): I would like to rise and say a few words on behalf of the government concerning the passing of James Allan. It's hard for me to believe that I'm the only one in the assembly who actually sat with him here, but that is indeed the case.

My first encounter with Mr Allan was not in this assembly. I was working my way through college, as they say, at a wallboard plant when suddenly the line came to a halt -- and that line never came to a halt -- and there appeared shaking hands with people on the line none other than James Allan, as it was an election time. I asked the foreman a little later, "Well, we saw Mr Allan; when are we going to see the candidates from the other parties?" and the foreman said, "If you have to ask that question, you're probably too stupid to be working here." I hope you won't comment on that.

My next real encounter with him was indeed in the assembly when I served on a committee, and I remember it was a committee with a lot of emotional involvement in it. It had to do with health and safety and workers' compensation, and I believe the Elliot Lake mine workers was an issue on the committee.

It got fairly heated and I took what can only be described as a cheap shot at Jimmie Allan. That was not the right thing to do, of course, and he reprimanded me and said, "Young man" -- I repeat, he said -- "Young man, you will get a lot further around this place and you will accomplish a lot more if you will for ever avoid personal shots." I don't think I've lived up to the letter of his advice totally in the last 20 years, but I certainly have remembered it and if I haven't lived up to it, it wasn't because of the good advice he gave me.

There's no question that he played an enormous role in the political life of this province and made an enormous contribution. I indeed do remember, when I first came here, the respect in which he was held, not by just his own colleagues but by all members of the assembly.

I realize he lived a full and rich life, to the age of 97, I believe, but even so, that's a life that should be celebrated, and on behalf of the government I would like to express my condolences to the family.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): I would like, on behalf of my colleagues in the Liberal Party, to join with the member for Carleton and the member for Nickel Belt in expressing to the Allan family our condolences on the passing of James N. Allan.

As has been mentioned, few people served in this assembly over the years with such distinction as Jimmie Allan. He will, I suppose, be remembered always for that first sales tax -- it was affectionately known as the "Frostbite" at 3%, he of course being finance minister to Leslie M. Frost -- but he served in a number of capacities, as has been mentioned by previous speakers.

I remember Bob Nixon saying to me that in his, that is, Bob Nixon's rather long public life, he, Bob Nixon, never met anyone he felt epitomized the highest qualities of public service as did Jimmie Allan. Bob and Jim were neighbours down in that part of southwestern Ontario for many years. In talking to people like Gord Miller, who succeeded Jim Allan as the member there in 1975, and Vince Kerrio, the member for Niagara Falls, with whom I know Jimmie had some dealings at the Niagara Parks Commission, all of my former colleagues who had involvement with Jim Allan certainly had the same

summary of characteristics: He was courtly, genial, very much a good listener, a man of the people, someone who had served in very high office, but never one to forget who he was and where he'd come from.

He, I think, in one way that has not been commented upon, is a really excellent model in this respect. Jim Allan, as the member for Carleton observed, went to cabinet in 1955 and served in very senior portfolios, certainly six or seven years as minister of finance. One of Jim Allan's great habits was to name his budgets, I say to my friend the member for Nickel Belt. He had a "sunshine" budget and he had a "get well" budget. I don't remember all the various titles, but every year he was the finance minister he would name his budget with a certain phrase that identified it.

He left the finance portfolio in 1966 and served nine years afterwards, most of those years as a private member. Too often we think in this place that if one is not in cabinet, if one is not thirsting to be in cabinet, then there's nothing to live for, there's nothing to do. I think the member for Nickel Belt is very helpful in remembering that when he was first elected in 1971, Jim Allan served in that Parliament for four years as a very active and constructive member of the Legislature as a private member.

He served on three extremely difficult and contentious committees, from the government's point of view, not just the workers' compensation reference, but the famous reference to the new Hydro building, and one other that escapes me at the moment. But they were two or three very important references he was involved in, making the point very powerfully that just because one has served in senior cabinet government is no reason to believe one cannot continue as a member of the Legislature. Jim Allan did that with great effect and great distinction.

James N. Allan: The "N" is for Noble, and he certainly speaks to the nobility of our sometimes soiled profession.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): To all members, the kind and thoughtful remarks made this afternoon will be forwarded to the members of the James Allan family.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

HEALTH BUDGET

Hon Frances Lankin (Minister of Health): Mr Speaker, I am pleased to inform you that my ministry's supplement to the provincial budget was tabled with the Clerk of the House today.

I have said many times that our most fundamental goal is to preserve medicare. We have one of the finest systems in the world, but we must admit that it isn't perfect. There hasn't always been a close check on how money has been spent. We haven't had the management systems in place to assure the money being spent was actually resulting in better health for our citizens. And in a massive system that serves 10 million people, with a budget of more than $17 billion a year, wastefulness can add up to important amounts fairly quickly. Management mechanisms must be put in place to help us keep health care affordable and working for the people of Ontario.

But good, quality health care is about more than cost-effectiveness. It's about people, about keeping them well, and it's about returning them to health when they do fall ill. In short, it's about responding appropriately to people's needs.

Our challenge is great. We must ensure a high-quality health care system. We must cut waste and improve efficiency, and we must do all this within the recessionary pressures we all face.

That means the system must change. As a friend of our Canadian health care system says, and I've been quoting him a lot recently, "If we don't change it, we'll lose it." My pledge is that we will not lose it.

As a government, our plans were laid out before the House by the Treasurer on April 30: Create jobs, preserve services, keep the deficit under control. Our pre-budget consultations with the public told us that these were the priorities of Ontarians. My ministry takes these priorities very seriously.

This paper we are tabling today is a review of the key areas we have worked on in the past year. It is a look at some of our intentions for the coming 12 months. It deals with the methods of providing accessible, affordable, appropriate health services for all. Let me assure all the members of this House that this paper is not, as some have predicted, a list of harsh cuts to the services available through OHIP or the Ontario drug benefit plan. No one will wake up tomorrow morning to find that a medically necessary service is gone.

In the paper I am releasing today, members of the House and all Ontarians will see that we have major reviews under way in a number of areas where we think we can save, where we think we can reform and restructure the health care system and maintain service, if not improve it.

For example, our restructuring of hospital funding continues. A very good example is that just last week our government announced a grant of $500,000 to the Essex County District Health Council to help local officials plan the rationalization of acute hospital services in the Windsor area.

We will carry on our search for the best and most cost-efficient ways to serve the public through the Ontario drug benefit plan. We have established a guideline of 2% for drug price increases this year. Products with a proposed increase over 2% will be subject to review and possible removal from the Drug Benefit Formulary.

Prescriptions and dispensing in larger quantities will be encouraged for well-established ODB recipients on long-term therapy. This is a follow-through of a commitment we made last year. This will result in greater patient and prescriber convenience and will reduce the number of dispensing fees paid by this government.

Changes in the coverage and price of over-the-counter drugs under the ODB plan will be implemented.

These measures are expected to save $112 million in 1992-93. As well, a major review of the ODB formulary will begin. It is expected to find an additional $28 million in savings.

We are implementing a major reform of all public drug programs through the drug programs reform secretariat.

We are also launching a major review of the use of commercial laboratories, to assure top value for our money. As well, the existing discount factors for large volumes of tests will be increased and expanded to include tests ordered by specialists.

The ministry will implement a new utilization sharing formula effective April 1, 1993. It will reduce payments to commercial laboratories by 50% when the number of tests grows more than 2% per year. We expect to save $11 million through these measures.

With respect to OHIP, together with the Ontario Medical Association we are reviewing the OHIP

schedule of benefits to promote more appropriate care and ensure that medically necessary services are available to all.

Together with physicians and other health ministries across the country we will seek ways to address issues surrounding physician human resource planning. Some parts of Ontario are underserviced

whereas other parts are overserviced. This simply isn't fair.

To address these concerns, the government will work toward better aligning the educational supply of physicians to health care needs of the province; modifying the medical education experience to better prepare physicians for the settings in which they will eventually practise; exploring ways to better distribute physician human resources geographically and by health care setting, and creating a system of linked, regional, multidisciplinary referral networks to effect a mix and distribution of physicians that provides a more rational means of accessing health care providers.

We expect that we can save $80 million this year through improved planning of this sort.

We will begin a review of payments to practitioners other than physicians. In order to better manage the growth in these payments, the existing payment policy for chiropractic, podiatry and osteopathic services will be frozen until the review is complete.

A new utilization formula for optometrists will share on a 50-50 basis any growth over a set percentage above a demographic allowance.

A new per capita allocation system for physiotherapy services will be developed to promote equitable availability.

Together these measures, taken in consultation with stakeholders, are expected to save $5 million this year.

The list of reforms we have already begun is long. I speak of reforms to long-term care and mental health; new strategies on cancer, tobacco, community health and diabetes; improvements to redress inequities in aboriginal health, women's issues and children's health, and we've begun new work on AIDS and in rehabilitation services.

Our better management initiatives have saved $176 million in 1991-92. These included individual thresholds under our agreement with the Ontario Medical Association, changes to our payments policy on out-of-country claims, a review of OHIP benefits and changes to the ODB. This year we expect to save $246 million.

As the Treasurer said in his budget address, "Maintaining the quality of Ontario's health care system while reducing rapid expenditure growth is essential to preserving medicare." Saving medicare means managing it well. That is what we are doing. We aim to prove that our excellent system can be managed well, so that it runs efficiently and effectively.

RESPONSES

HEALTH BUDGET

Mrs Barbara Sullivan (Halton Centre): In responding to the statement of the Minister of Health, I want first to acknowledge her courtesy in providing her statement to me a few minutes before the House came into session. We appreciated that because we believe this is an important paper and one eagerly awaited by everybody in Ontario.

As the minister has indicated, medicare is a part of all our lives and the way we define ourselves. Since the introduction of medicare, in my view, there's never been such a deep unease and concern about the approach and direction of a government with respect to health care delivery. This paper brings with it an $832-million chop in health care services. The implications of those cuts are indeed profound.

Health care practitioners, consumers, institutions and families are all disturbed about the signals they're receiving from the government about changes which will be thrust upon them. There's little communication about the rationale for many of the changes which have been signalled and there's definitely no sense that the stakeholders themselves have been involved in designing the changes that will answer the real and perceived needs and problems that face us. As well, there's frequently little confidence that the government has any real understanding of the impacts and implications of the cuts it's made to date or will make in the future.

It appears to us that the current government has approached these issues by looking at cost containment rather than cost-effectiveness and health quality. This is a matter of serious concern. It's rarely seen to accept advice that could assist it in understanding the issues. As a consequence, it has made unilateral decisions that have sometimes had an adverse effect on patient care and at other times have not made the cost savings the government hoped to achieve.

We've seen unilateral decisions in the past to change access to certain ODB drugs with a clear indication that neither the Ministry of Health nor the Treasurer had full information on the use of those drugs. In one case which came before the House elderly patients with shingles, a painful and debilitating illness, would have had to wait several weeks for access to the drug that would have assisted them.

Now we have, in the absence of any further apparent action on Dr Lowy's report, a new directive that prescriptions must be issued in larger quantities, supposedly to save costs on pharmacists' dispensing fees. We know, however, that one of the serious problems in dealing with the elderly patient is the overprescription of drugs. When drugs are prescribed in larger quantities, the problem could well be exacerbated. Patient monitoring will be less frequent and the threat of increased damage to the patient is extremely high.

As well, the issue of appropriate and safe disposal of unused medication becomes a problem of increasing importance. The impacts have clearly not been fully examined in this area.

We've also seen blanket statements that no new drugs, no matter how advantageous for patient care, can be added to the Drug Benefit Formulary, whether or not those chemical therapies may have enabled the patient to stay out of a more costly setting, such as a hospital or other institution. As well, with the prospect of removal over-the-counter medications from the formulary, we may well see more expensive prescription medications used as their replacement.

What's singular and significant about these changes is that there has been no serious attempt to bring together the pharmacists, the pharmaceutical manufacturers, the physicians who prescribe drugs and others to look at the full range of issues associated with therapeutic drug treatment.

The cost of the drug benefit plan, the efficacy and effectiveness of specific drug therapies and the life-cycle cost to the health care system need thorough analysis with all the players at the table. What do we get instead? A unilateral decision to cut $59 million from the Ontario drug benefit plan. But that approach isn't unique to the drug section. The same could be said for laboratory medicine, where laboratory fees are the lowest in Ontario and yet a unilateral cut has placed them out of the ballpark and probably out of business.

The specialists who are now being added to the cap really ought to be enabled to continue their play, and I'm thinking of the situation particularly with the AIDS patients, sexually transmitted diseases, where in fact the cap will intervene and interfere with adequate patient care.

There are some positive thrusts in this paper in concept and in practice. To the people of Ontario, however, I want to underline, medicare is sacrosanct, the changes and issues that should be discussed have not been adequately discussed with all of the players, the choices have not been made with the expertise available, and medicare, in the end, will suffer.

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe West): I'm pleased to respond to the announcement today by the Minister of Health. I can only conclude, after many meetings with groups, thousands of job losses and bed closures and huge waiting lists for treatment, that this NDP government has no comprehensive health care management plan. This is the case despite an abundance of rhetoric to the contrary. Minister, I say cut the rhetoric, not the services.

For the past 18 months you've run around the province, along with your Treasurer and Premier, talking about the very serious problems with costs in Ontario's health care system, but after 18 months your government still can't give us some answers on how these problems are being addressed.

I call today's paper "A Beginner's Guide to Health Care." We'd expect more from a government that's been around as long as your government has. You should be much further down the road in the reform of our health care system than is evident today by this very vague document.

There continue to be uncertainties out there concerning which OHIP services are to be cut and what drugs will be delisted. I see no plan in this document to counteract the 4,000 jobs that will be lost and the 2,300 beds that are to be closed this year in our hospital system. The lack of government policy and direction is causing serious planning and budgetary difficulties for Ontario's hospitals, and I've repeatedly asked the minister for a prescription that would enable hospitals to plan properly for the future.

While we've known for some time that the reform of the Ontario drug benefit plan is in the works, you've not bothered to consult with pharmacists or drug manufacturers, and I've heard that from them very directly. Surely you must realize that front-line workers and those who provide pharmaceuticals should be consulted in the reform process. It's illogical that those who provide these services are not involved.

It's time you consulted with the public on issues currently being dealt with behind closed doors. We know you're considering user fees in the ODB program and we know you are talking behind closed doors with the Ontario Medical Association about what health services residents in this province may have to pay for in the very near future. We do not dispute the fact that medical practitioners should be consulted with respect to services that should be covered under the Ontario health insurance plan, but we believe that the public should also have a voice.

I sincerely hope you open up a dialogue with commercial laboratories. They would very much like to work with you, and I see no reason why you should feel obligated to bureaucratize yet another private industry.

I'm pleased to hear you're working with the Ontario Medical Association on the supply of physicians. I hope something binding will be worked out in the very near future. We have to ensure that citizens in all areas of the province have access to specialized medical care.

You mentioned that you've already begun the process of improving children's mental health treatment. How can this be the case when more than 12,000 children continue to wait on waiting lists for mental health services across the province?

The bottom line is that there's been no public consultation. The subtext of today's announcement is that you're going to ration health care, you have no plans for extensive public input, you're taking a scalpel to the health care system behind closed doors and you'll be introducing, we know, more user fees in the future.

Cuts are occurring in a clandestine way. You're taking a stealth bomber approach to health care. People go to the hospital only to find out that you've cut services without prior warning, and after today's announcement there's no indication where you'll strike next.

Again, we plead with you that, before you make any more cuts to our health care system, you consult widely with the public. Today's announcement is simply a softening up of the public for the major cuts you're indicating are coming in both the extent of services and the delivery of services in Ontario. You must consult widely. You've only spent time with the Ontario Medical Association, the executives of the physicians' association. You've not consulted with the Ontario Pharmacists' Association or individual pharmacists.

I was in Thunder Bay this weekend, as you were, and hospital boards are very uncertain of what the future is in health care. You have to bring forward a comprehensive management plan. You can't just tell us you have one without actually telling us what it is. We call that rhetoric. This document is not rhetoric; it's simply a beginner's guide to health care. We'd expect more from a minister of your competence.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Further responses?

ATTENDANCE OF CABINET MINISTERS

Mr Steven W. Mahoney (Mississauga West): Mr Speaker, I have a point of privilege I'd like to raise for your consideration. It says on page 14 of our rules: "Privileges are the rights enjoyed by the House collectively and by the members of the House individually conferred by the Legislative Assembly Act and other statutes, or by practice, precedent, usage and custom." I refer you back, if you don't feel that my point follows under the "by practice" category, to

section 1(b), which says: "In all contingencies not provided for in the standing orders the question shall be decided by the Speaker or Chair, and in making the ruling the Speaker or Chair shall base the decision on the usages and precedents of the Legislature and parliamentary tradition."

One of the privileges we enjoy collectively on this side of the House is to hold the government accountable. I would point out to you, sir, that absent from this Legislature today in addition to the Premier -- and particularly in light of our guests from eastern Europe -- are the Attorney General, the Minister of Community and Social Services, the Minister of Colleges and Universities, the Minister of Agriculture and Food, the Minister of the Environment, the Minister of Northern Development, the Minister of Transportation, the Minister of Revenue and the Minister of Natural Resources.

That means 10 ministers, fully 40% of the cabinet, are absent from question period. I don't know how we can be expected to perform our duty of holding these people accountable to the public when they won't attend question period.

I would ask that you, sir, perhaps consider talking to the government House leader. Maybe we should reschedule question period to some other time that's more convenient to the members of the government so that they don't need to fill in their empty benches with backbenchers from the rest of their party. How can we perform our duties when they simply won't come to work?

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): To the member for Mississauga West, first of all, I appreciate the point of order he has raised, and indeed he has cited some appropriate references with respect to what happens within the chamber. I must, however, draw the member's attention to the fact that question period allows members of the opposition an opportunity to ask questions, and cabinet ministers who are present the opportunity to respond. There is not, however, as regrettable as the member may view it, anything in the standing orders which would allow the Speaker to compel the attendance of any member of the House.

I will close by saying that I am of course most sensitive to the point which he raises, because indeed question period is the focus point for the opposition, the one period of time set aside where members have the opportunity to question the government policy of the day very directly. For that purpose it is of great assistance to the members of the House when the cabinet ministers are in full attendance, but you are asking the Speaker to do something which is not within the Speaker's power: to compel the attendance of cabinet ministers.

Mr Mahoney: Mr Speaker, could I just refer to something for your consideration? The last two words in

section 1(

b) under "Conduct of Business" are "parliamentary tradition." Would you not agree, sir, that it is parliamentary tradition in this place to have a one-hour session of question period where opposition members have the privilege and the right of questioning members of the government? Clearly members of the government are only those members who occupy a cabinet seat. The backbenchers are simply members of this Legislature who traditionally are in support of the government, but they indeed are not part of the government. The government is the cabinet. Some 40% of the government refuses to come to question period. How can we do our job effectively on behalf of all our constituents?

The Speaker: The member for Mississauga West raises a very interesting and intriguing point, and indeed I'll be most pleased to take a look at this and to report back. The member knows that questions can be directed only to cabinet ministers, that they cannot be directed to any other member of the government, and hence it would be helpful if cabinet ministers were present.

I will be pleased to take a look at this and I will report back to you later. At this moment it is -- a point of order, the member for St Catharines.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): A very brief point of order, Mr Speaker: When you're taking this into consideration, would you take into consideration the fact that the government refused to come back into session until April 6 of this year, when the parliamentary calendar would normally call for it to be back March 9, and when those of us in opposition would have liked to see it back in January of this year? The Premier and his ministers can hide somewhere else, but surely their prime responsibility is to be here in the House to be questioned.

The Speaker: I will be pleased to provide something for the member: The member, being an experienced member, I am sure is aware that once the House is prorogued, the recall of the House is at the pleasure of the government.

ORAL QUESTIONS

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): I'll direct my first question to the Solicitor General, who is here today. Last week, members of the opposition asked the government ministers a number of questions about what we thought were widespread rumours that the government might be planning changes to its Sunday shopping legislation. We were of course assured categorically that there were no changes planned.

Then on Friday, it suddenly became very apparent that the government is indeed planning changes to its Sunday shopping legislation. We're pleased that those reassurances have been provided. I would just ask the minister if he will now tell us what changes his government is planning to introduce to its legislation.

Hon Allan Pilkey (Solicitor General): In response to the leader of the official opposition, I'm here every day at question period except if I'm on government business. I am pleased to report that I did return from Sudbury this morning just so I could be here. I want to convey to the member that I assume other ministers are not here because, perhaps, their flights and connections did not allow.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): And your response to the question?

Hon Mr Pilkey: More directly to the response, there is no alteration to the government position with respect to the common pause day legislation and the legislation that provides for worker protection.

Mrs McLeod: I suppose that raises the question of on what basis retailers of this province believed they had received some commitment from members of this government and, on that basis, changed proposed action that they were planning to take. I think the retailers were under the impression that some commitments had been made. We would like to know on what basis they had that kind of reassurance and what changes they might have been anticipating.

Hon Mr Pilkey: The House is well aware of the amendments that were brought forward with respect to the Retail Business Holidays Act, I believe just prior to Christmas, and the clarity the government brought to that particular issue. It is fair to say that I and other members of the government have indicated in recent weeks that we were quite aware of the increase in the polls, the shift in public position, and of course we have met with the retailers at their request to understand their ongoing concern with respect to their bottom line, which is not improving in this recessionary period.

But beyond that, no assurances have been given. The government will continue to monitor the situation, and if and when there is any alteration in the position, it will so advise this House.

Mrs McLeod: It seems that once again people are just being lost in a wealth of words, with absolutely no action to follow any of the words that are used. I would gather from what the Solicitor General has told us that he is essentially saying to the people of this province that there are no changes proposed to the Sunday shopping legislation; that communities will not be given the option of deciding to open their stores on Sunday; that there is no possibility that municipalities will be able to make that choice and that retailers will be able to open their stores in time for summer hours.

Will the minister assure us, then, that this is the government's final statement, so that we all clearly understand what his government is saying and can act accordingly?

Hon Mr Pilkey: I can indicate to the House again the amendments that were made. I'm very pleased that retailers who had previously announced that they had intended to break the law this Sunday reconsidered their position and decided not to and to support, as good corporate citizens, the laws of this land. Beyond that I can only repeat, as I indicated to the leader of the third party, that if and when there is any additional news or change or disposition that is different from the existing, we will so advise the House. Beyond that, the law is the law. We expect corporate citizens and citizenry alike to follow it. At this particular time there's nothing else to add.

TEACHERS' DISPUTE

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): Let me turn to another set of words in the endless attempt to find out this government's intentions. I'll direct my second question to the Minister of Education. According to the Minister of Education, and I believe I'm quoting accurately, "The best solution to any dispute, particularly one like this" -- referring to the Carleton school board strike -- "is in fact one in which the parties are able to resolve their differences between themselves."

Although the minister made that statement, it is our belief that he has at least indirectly intervened in the bargaining process with his earlier statements on transitional funding. It is possible that this kind of intervention, without any clarity as to what's intended, has made local resolution of this particular strike, or perhaps any other strike, virtually impossible.

I ask the minister whether he has defined for the Carleton Board of Education what a balanced collective agreement would be in this situation, what kind of tradeoff the board would be expected to make for this balanced agreement and what kind of transitional funding the Carleton board might receive if it were to reach a settlement under the minister's guidelines.

Hon Tony Silipo (Minister of Education): No, I have not done that in terms of any specific discussions I've had with anyone at the Carleton Board of Education. I don't think it is appropriate for me to do that. I have given indications to the education community at large in terms of the kinds of things I believe both teachers' federations and school boards should be doing in the collective bargaining process -- and outside of the collective bargaining process, for that matter -- but to answer specifically the member's question, the answer would be no.

Mrs McLeod: Surely the minister is aware that any kinds of directives or guidelines given to the school system at large also apply to specific local situations and that it is absolutely essential that there be clarity as to what the minister's intentions are if he does not wish to at least indirectly intervene in the ability of local parties to work out a local solution to a dispute.

In the meantime we have a situation in which students in Carleton have lost 26 school days as a result of this strike. The end of the term is approaching. Students are worried that they're going to lose their school year. This concern becomes particularly significant for students who are waiting for information as to whether they will be accepted to a post-secondary educational institution next year. I ask the minister, while he waits for a report from the Education Relations Commission and as the anxiety and the frustration of the students and the parents gets greater and greater, what is he doing to respond to that sense of urgency that everyone else is feeling in this situation?

Hon Mr Silipo: Let me assure the member that I've been following the proceedings very closely in the Carleton negotiations. It was my hope, as I believe it was everyone's hope, that in fact a settlement would have been possible over the weekend, which has not happened.

As the Leader of the Opposition alluded to, the Education Relations Commission is meeting later this afternoon to deal with the issue of jeopardy. I'm expecting to hear from them later in the day. We have been talking, obviously, about the options available to us as a government and will continue those discussions later in the day. Obviously we'll be in a position to make some further clarifications on that as the day unfolds and into tomorrow.

The other point I wanted to address was with respect to the school year. I've had discussions with my officials around what things we should be doing and could be doing with respect to that and with respect to indicating very clearly to the school board in the Carleton situation, but also in the Ottawa situation, that we expect to have the issue of the school year addressed in a way that will not jeopardize the school year for students who are either continuing secondary school education next year or going on to post-secondary education.

Mrs McLeod: The minister clearly understands the process. We talk about the process, but the reality is that the students and parents in the Carleton district do not understand the process; they only understand that the students are not in school. The other reality is that even elementary school students are now joining in the protest and they're concerned about the importance of education and how that's being jeopardized.

May I understand from the minister's response to the last supplementary that he is assuring the students and the parents of the Carleton system that he will take action to protect their interests, that at the very least he is giving them an assurance they will not lose their school year and their entry to post-secondary education institutions will not be jeopardized? If he is giving that assurance, I would ask him to give us some explanation of how he can follow through on that.

Hon Mr Silipo: I have been giving that assurance in the House for the last few weeks, as I have been asked these questions. I have no trouble in reiterating that today and in saying we will do, and I will do, whatever is necessary to make that happen up to and including having the school day extended, if that's what's necessary, to complete the time that's necessary and having whatever discussions are necessary with post-secondary education institutions to ensure, in terms of students being accepted, that isn't affected by the strike situation.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): New question, the third party.

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Carleton): To the same minister, on the same subject. I'm glad to see the Liberal Party take an interest in the strike at this time.

The Minister of Education will know I have had on the order paper for over three weeks now the only solution he has left at his disposal, that is, ordering the teachers back to work by legislation and settling the dispute later. I'm getting calls from both sides, the teacher side and the board side, saying they have failed to come to a conclusion in the negotiations they have undertaken. Why do you not take that step this afternoon?

Hon Mr Silipo: As I indicated earlier in answer to the question from the leader of the official opposition, the Education Relations Commission is meeting later this afternoon. I'm expecting to hear from them later in the day. We're continuing to look, obviously, at the various options we have before us, which I think clearly include the question of legislation as a possibility.

I had a chance earlier this afternoon to speak with the chair of the Carleton board. I have not yet had a chance to speak with the head of the teachers' federation, which I also want to do, in terms of getting a sense directly from the federation around where things are and what might still be possible. I want to be able to have the rest of the day to pull all that information together, obviously, for the discussions to continue within the government in terms of how we are going to respond and react to the situation.

Mr Sterling: What have you been doing for the last five weeks if you haven't been considering the options? Do you have to have the rest of today to figure out what the options are? What options do you have other than legislating the teachers back to work?

Hon Mr Silipo: As the member would know, in these situations there are always other options in terms of looking at the issues that caused the breakdown in negotiations to occur over the weekend and whether there is any way to reconcile those differences. Clearly, we aren't talking about a process that is going to drag on from this point. I have been monitoring the situation and looking at all the options, as things have been unfolding, but I think, given the point at which we are now, it's incumbent upon me to take a look at all of the options and put those options before the cabinet in terms of decisions that can be made. That's what we're in the process of doing.

Mr Sterling: The minister is dithering. The Liberals have dithered on this thing. They haven't said what they would do if they were sitting over there. We have clearly said what we would do through my private member's bill.

Mr Minister, we are tired of hearing you say, "I'm monitoring the situation, I'm considering the options." There are no other options. Legislate them back this afternoon so the kids can be in school tomorrow. Why don't you do the right thing and show a little bit of leadership, even at this late date?

Hon Mr Silipo: It's clear that the member and I have different

definitions of what leadership entails, and that's fine. I'm quite happy to leave it at that. He clearly has stated his position with respect to how he would have dealt with this issue probably a month ago in terms of instituting wage controls. I've never believed that's the way to resolve these kinds of situations.

We believe the collective bargaining process needs to be respected, sustained and encouraged to work. Obviously we come up against situations like this, where it's put to the test in a very real way and it may or may not work. But I think we need to look at all the options as we make the kinds of decisions we need to make as a government in terms of what next steps we might want to take.

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mr Gary Carr (Oakville South): My question is to the Solicitor General. Last week both you and the Treasurer gave assurances to this House that you were not changing your regressive Sunday shopping legislation. There were reports in there, and I'm quoting from one of the executives from Woolco who said, "There are some indications that I can't go into detail on that the government is reviewing their position." Have you had a chance to chit-chat with the Premier's office and find out what deal was struck and what your position on Sunday shopping is today?

Hon Allan Pilkey (Solicitor General): There's been no deal struck as the member opposite alleges. The response I gave to the Leader of the opposition is the government response with respect to the matter.

Mr Carr: I think what is driving it is a quote from the Treasurer, who said, "I suspect there will be some increased revenues to governments because of Sunday shopping, because people do spend more." That quote was attributed to your Treasurer.

Something made them change their minds. All the reports are that they were going to open, and apparently what happened -- I'll refer to one of the other articles that says: "And sources say MPPs have been told that the issue of Sunday shopping will be on the caucus agenda tomorrow," so you'd better prepare for your answers tomorrow, members of the NDP.

My question is this: Will you quit playing political peekaboo, come clean with retailers and tell them when we are going to be open seven days a week in Ontario?

Hon Mr Pilkey: If and when that eventuality comes to pass, I certainly will advise them and all members of the House. Beyond that, I've indicated we are monitoring the situation in terms of public opinion and the concerns of retailers of this province during this very difficult recessionary period. If there is to be any alteration at any given time in the future, we obviously will advise the House.

Mr Carr: I wish we could have the Premier's office come in here; we might get some answers. In fact, deals were being cut across the province. They decided not to open and we can't get any answers in this Legislature from the Solicitor General. You flip-flop on all the other issues: auto insurance, the casinos and the entire Agenda for People. When will you say to the retailers in this province that you have changed your mind and that you're going to open? Will you tell us when you're going to make that announcement, Mr Solicitor General?

Hon Mr Pilkey: The government will make all announcements after cabinet and this government decide on any changes on any issues in the normal consequence of this House and will so advise it at that time on this and any other issue when any changes may become appropriate.

JOB CREATION

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): My question is to the Treasurer. It has to do with an important matter, that is, jobs. The Treasurer is probably aware that we discussed jobs in the Legislature last week and that the Premier said, "Everyone's credibility is on the line." The Premier said he was quite proud of the record of creating jobs. He said, "Those are real jobs, and that's the truth and those are the facts." That was on Thursday.

On Friday we saw the highest level of unemployment in Ontario in nine years. We saw 75,000 more people out of work in April than in April a year ago. I think those are the facts and that's the truth. My question to the Treasurer is this: Will he now acknowledge that last year's budget was a failure and that new approaches are required to lower the unacceptable level of unemployment that we have in Ontario?

Hon Floyd Laughren (Treasurer and Minister of Economics): I must confess I didn't hear the last part of the member's question and I would seek your indulgence, Mr Speaker, if he could repeat it.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Would the member kindly repeat the last portion.

Mr Phillips: I'm not sure how far back to go. The Premier last week was quite proud of the job creation record of the government. He said that you have created jobs; that's the truth and those are the facts. On Friday, Treasurer, as you know, we saw the unemployment level for Ontario, the highest level we've seen in nine years. We see 75,000 more people out of work this April than in April of a year ago, when you brought in your first budget.

My question to you is this: Was that budget, which the Premier was talking about as having been successful in creating jobs for the province of Ontario, the budget you're using as your foundation for this year's budget? I think it would be helpful if you would now acknowledge that that budget was a mistake, it was a failure, it didn't work, and that we need some new approaches to lower the level of unemployment in this province.

Hon Mr Laughren: The member for Scarborough-Agincourt is surely stretching the cloth a bit to imply that because we're in a recession, the heaviest and deepest recession this province has had since the big Depression, and because unemployment is high, it's the fault of the provincial budget. I think that really is stretching the point a lot.

What we did last year was incur a deficit of over $10 billion, which at least supported and created jobs in the province. If we had listened to some of the advice from some of your colleagues and all of the advice from the third party we would have slashed jobs even more, because that's the message you've been giving us.

Mr Phillips: Again I go back to credibility and the credibility of the budget. I will just say to the Treasurer this: Last year you said you would spend $700 million on an anti-recession program. In your budget you have cut $400 million out of the capital budget, out of the anti-recession program. So that's credibility.

Ontario had the lowest rate of unemployment in the country a mere 18 months ago. We now see Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia all with substantially better levels of unemployment than we have. On page 51 in your budget, Treasurer, you say, "Job Gains Expected to Resume in Spring" -- right now. I go back to credibility of your planning and your budget work. "Job gains are expected to resume in the spring of 1992 as economic growth takes place," yet we see a third of the spring's over. We've now seen one month of spring. We've actually lost 17,000 jobs.

My question to you is this, Treasurer: Are you sticking with this budget? Will we see real job growth beginning in the next month in this province, or do you agree with us that we are going to need more activity, we're going to need better plans to get the economy going, than we see in your budget here?

Hon Mr Laughren: When we were drawing up the budget and putting in the forecasts of jobs and economic growth we didn't pull those numbers out of the air. Those numbers came from not just treasury board staff but other independent and objective forecasters out there in the province. I think if you will cast your mind back for a couple of months, virtually everybody who's an objective observer, a knowledgeable observer, was predicting and is still predicting that there's going to be an economic recovery this spring.

That doesn't mean that, a week after the budget is brought down and there isn't the increase in jobs that everyone's predicting, the budget document is a failure. I think that really is stretching credulity to the point of no return.

YOUTH EMPLOYMENT

Mr W. Donald Cousens (Markham): I have a question for the Treasurer and Deputy Premier. With the appointment of Stephen Lewis to look into the circumstances of last Monday evening's demonstrations, we will begin to see some results from his studies in the next four to five weeks. Certainly if the government thinks that what happened then is totally racially based, it will have missed a major point.

What happened a week ago today were the acts of disenfranchised youths angered and frustrated with a system that has chosen to ignore them. Even last Thursday, out on the lawn here at Queen's Park the crowd called for jobs. Jobs today are needed for our youth in order for them to feel part of our society, so they can be responsible and productive. We don't have six weeks to wait for a report that is going to start indicating the need for jobs for these youths.

The government does not have six weeks to review job opportunities for youth. In fact, by then summer will be well under way and there still won't be more jobs for them. There must be a commitment today to solve youth unemployment. I ask the Treasurer, how many jobs for young people will your government create this year?

Hon Floyd Laughren (Deputy Premier, Treasurer and Minister of Economics): The member asks an important question. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that high unemployment is a contributing factor to the kinds of problems we've seen in this province and this city. I would simply say to the member opposite -- and this ties in to a question from the member for Scarborough-Agincourt as well -- I don't want to be defensive about it, but in this budget just brought down we've been either creating through new programs or continuing to fund through existing programs about 90,000 jobs this year.

Everyone would like to be able to do more, we all understand that, but I think the member opposite would be one of the first on his feet if we were to think there were any quick fixes to the problems to which he refers.

Mr Cousens: Looking at the youth situation here in the province right now, 18% of young people between 16 and 25 are unemployed. It's one of the largest groups of unemployed. There is nothing specific in your budget, which highlights all the good news possible, for youth unemployment. Your own youth budget has been straightlined the same as last year: $8.3 million to $8.5 million for youth employment again this year. The number of weeks they'll work this summer, Mr Treasurer, is going to be on average about nine weeks rather than 16 to 18 weeks, which would allow them to earn some money either to go back to school or do something else or get their feet on the ground.

We need specifics for young people. If we get jobs for them, then they'll have a chance to begin to get on their feet. There's got to be a commitment from your government. I ask you specifically, can you now, today, begin to take concrete steps to help them get going and find a job for this summer rather than just putting it aside for another four or five weeks? It's a time for action. These young people are looking for help from somewhere. Will it be from you?

Hon Mr Laughren: The member will recall that just last week the Premier announced that the member for St Andrew-St Patrick was being appointed as his parliamentary assistant with a very specific mandate to look at this very problem. At the same time, there is a government committee that consists of the federal government, the provincial government and the two levels of the municipal government.

Interjection: Floyd, you can't wait.

Hon Mr Laughren: The member opposite says, "You can't wait." Well, you can't snap your fingers and solve these problems either. I think the member would appreciate that.

I did want to outline some of the initiatives we've undertaken. We announced a $6-million increase to expand apprenticeship training, including improvements to the student work apprenticeship program for this year. The environmental youth program will employ about 3,000 young people in 1992-93. The student venture will provide approximately 1,000 students with an interest-free loan of up to $3,000 to start a business this summer. The Futures program will employ and train about 24,500 young people in 1992-93 and approximately $95 million will be provided for that program by the province. So there are a number of initiatives.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that we can rest on what we've done. That's precisely why the Premier has appointed the very capable member for St Andrew-St Patrick to aid in seeking a solution to this very thorny problem.

INTERNATIONAL SPACE UNIVERSITY

Mr George Mammoliti (Yorkview): My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. For the past few weeks there have been a number of newspaper articles regarding the International Space University. These articles link the ISU to the United States government's Star Wars military research. Is there any truth to the charge that the government is using taxpayers' money to support the US defence industry?

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I bet the answer is no.

Hon Ed Philip (Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology): As the member for St Catharines has said, the answer is no. The bid supported by this government does not contain a defence or military research component, either classified or unclassified. As a matter of fact, we consider this to be fundamental to the bid and a fundamental strength of Ontario's bid. The decision to support the bid was made after an in-depth cost-benefit study.

With regard to the Ontario taxpayers question, this government is not supporting the initiative on its own but rather with financial participation from International Space University. On an annual basis, ISU will contribute $4 million, rising to $8.5 million a year by the fifth year in full operation, and the benefits such as research grants and contracts awarded to Ontario companies, and such as those arising from the ISU initiatives and royalties from ISU patents. The bid is still at the proposal stage. If it's accepted, many months of negotiation will go on before the contracts are signed.

Mr Mammoliti: The other charge that has been and is of great concern is that in supporting a bid for the ISU, this government is supporting the establishment of a private university. Minister, who will be able to attend this university, and will it be a private institution?

Hon Mr Philip: I believe the Minister of Colleges and Universities has already made it clear that the ISU facility in Ontario will be a public institution. As an educational facility, it will be an affiliate college of York University with the same authority, role and responsibilities of other affiliated colleges. The ISU will be unique. Its international students will be on scholarships from their own countries. Canada has pledged some $500,000 toward scholarships.

The bottom line is support for and development of Ontario's technological infrastructure. We believe this will be a valuable contribution to that, even though members of the Conservative Party don't want to hear that.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr Steven W. Mahoney (Mississauga West): My question is to the Minister of Education. Minister, you'll recall coming out to visit the folks in Peel dealing with their crisis in budgeting. You made a number of statements at the time about people working together to resolve the problem and suggestions that the union should work with the board etc. You also said you were going to announce some funding from the transition funding allotment of $160 million, and I have a news release communiqué wherein you announce $50.2 million for education.

You refer in there to a number of criteria for eligibility. The first one refers to labour adjustment initiatives to make the collective bargaining process more flexible. The second one refers to employer-employee plans to restructure school board operations. You also say in there that to receive funding -- and this is key -- proposals "must be developed through employer-employee cooperation." My question is, can you tell us exactly what "must be developed through employer-employee cooperation" means? What do you mean by that, Minister?

Hon Tony Silipo (Minister of Education): What that means is what I think it says, that what we would expect to see are proposals that come forward either from school boards along with their employee federations or that indicate very clearly that there's been discussion and that there's some general sense of agreement in terms of the proposals that are coming forward. That's one of the issues we will be looking for in making those determinations.

I also tell the member that we are working through the details of the criteria. We're having a meeting tomorrow in fact, which involves representatives from school boards, teachers' federations and other employee groups to flesh out the details of this as well as to set up a process for approving the proposals that will come to us from school boards. I anticipate having some more information from the school boards later this week on the basis of the discussions we're holding tomorrow.

Mr Mahoney: The minister might be surprised to know that I'm aware of that even though I got it through a confidential document from the ministry which outlined the proposed time line in the process. One of the pages of this document marked "confidential" deals with the application for transition assistance fund. Mr Speaker, to the minister, item 5 says, "School boards are asked to provide detailed statements of intent in addressing each of the criteria preconditions for funding, using separate pages if space on the application is insufficient."

Under the second criterion, dealing with employer-employee cooperation in the development of the proposed project, it says, "Attach a statement describing the employer-employee cooperation, signed by both groups." I interpret that to say the union must sign the application along with the school board to receive any transition funds. Of course the other side of that argument is --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): And the supplementary?

Mr Mahoney: -- that if the union refuses to sign the document, the application will not be considered. Minister, you're giving the union a veto over the elected trustees on the school board and their right and responsibility to represent the parents --

The Speaker: Does the member have a supplementary?

Mr Mahoney: -- and the taxpayers in their constituency. How can you do this, Minister? You're turning over the authority of the school boards to the teachers' union --

The Speaker: Would the member complete his supplementary.

Mr Mahoney: -- and putting the school boards at a complete disadvantage. Minister, how can you do that?

Hon Mr Silipo: Let me assure the member that he hasn't revealed any great secrets. The document he's referring to, I believe, is a working document, if I can surmise from the parts he has quoted from it, a working document that is being used in the ministry as we are looking at the various options and will probably be part of what goes to the group tomorrow in terms of the discussions I indicated in answer earlier.

There is an interest, very clearly, on our

part in wanting to be sure that as the proposals come forward we know whether these are coming forward by agreement between the board and the teachers' federations and the support staff unions, because it applies to them as well. If that isn't the case, we believe it's important for us to know the degree of agreement that is or isn't between the parties, because so much of the funds we have available we are pegging in the area of labour relations and improved labour relations --

Interjection.

The Speaker: Would the member for Etobicoke West come to order.

Hon Mr Silipo: -- and cooperation. So I think it's not a question of giving anyone a veto; it's a question of us wanting to be clear about the degree of --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Would the minister take his seat. Had the minister concluded his response?

Hon Mr Silipo: Yes, Mr Speaker.

ONTARIO ANTI-RACISM ADVISORY WORKING GROUP

Mr W. Donald Cousens (Markham): A question for the Minister of Citizenship: On April 20 this year, you appointed to your Ontario Anti-Racism Advisory Working Group a Mr Lennox Farrell as cochair. In his role, he will work to combat racism, demonstrate joint leadership and share in the responsibility of all sectors of society to develop anti-racist policies.

On Monday night last week, Mr Farrell was charged with breaching the peace, a charge not synonymous with demonstrating responsible leadership. Has Mr Farrell been asked to step aside from his role as cochair of the anti-racism advisory group pending the outcome of the charges against him?

Hon Elaine Ziemba (Minister Responsible for Race Relations): First of all, I would like to give you a brief background of what the advisory committee has been appointed to do. The advisory committee has been set up with 18 people who have been asked to sit on the committee to look into and to make sure that the policies being devised by the government and the funding that is going to be given to committees are looked at in a way that the community has good input.

I think the advisory committee has had a good process of looking at all the people we have had the opportunity to interview. I personally interviewed 38 people before we chose the 18 people to sit on the advisory committee. I think we have made a very good selection in making sure we have had good representation: gender balance, region balance, labour has been represented and employers have been represented as well.

The answer to the question is that we have had to take a very good close look to make sure that the people representing the various communities have good input into the committee.

The Speaker: Would the minister conclude her response, please.

Hon Ms Ziemba: With respect to whether we should look at who we've appointed to co-chair, even the Toronto Sun said that until somebody's day in court is held, we should certainly give people the opportunity. We still have in this country, I think, the ability to believe that people have the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty. I think we would want to make sure that those rights of all individuals --

The Speaker: Could the minister conclude her response, please.

Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes, certainly, Mr Speaker, but I do think it's a very important question, and if there is a supplementary I would certainly entertain to answer that supplementary.

The Speaker: Supplementary.

Mr Cousens: Very simply, the question was, has Mr Lennox Farrell been asked to step aside from his role as co-chair of the anti-racism advisory group pending the outcome of charges against him? I wasn't passing judgement. There are charges against him. If a policeman has charges pending against him, he steps aside while allegations are being considered. If cabinet ministers -- before your government took over -- had charges against them, they would step aside during an investigation. Will you not ask Mr Farrell to step aside while these charges are pending?

Hon Ms Ziemba: First of all, we have to --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The member for St George-St David.

Hon Ms Ziemba: It's very difficult on a sensitive --

The Speaker: Would the minister take her seat, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Minister.

Hon Ms Ziemba: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I appreciate your trying to get the House in order.

I have to say that this is a very sensitive issue, and I would like to have the opportunity to answer this question. At this point in time, we are not looking at asking this gentleman to step aside, because we have to first of all ascertain if charges have been laid. I have not been given information that charges actually have been laid, and until I have actually been given that information, I think we would like to make sure that somebody's freedom of speech and the freedom to be able to be proven guilty first before having those charges looked into --

Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): Have you phoned the police? I'm sure if you called, they'd tell you right away.

Hon Ms Ziemba: I have to say to somebody who's yelling from across the floor that it's not a matter of phoning the police. We don't have to do that. We have been told that there might not be charges laid, and I don't think we should preclude any of that information. I don't think you would want a cabinet minister to phone the police. I think that's totally out of order. I certainly remember Joan Smith.

HERITAGE CONSERVATION

Mr David Winninger (London South): My question is for the Minister of Culture and Communications. Madam Minister, for quite some time now your ministry has been working on changes to the Ontario Heritage Act in an attempt to create new legislation that is more representative of the heritage of many of the peoples of Ontario.

Last session you spoke to me in the House in addressing one of my concerns, which is the preservation of historic buildings. As you know, in my riding of London South a precious strip of historically significant buildings was demolished to make room for new development. I cannot stress enough how important it is that you expedite new heritage legislation so that incidents like this can never happen again.

Minister, time is crucial. I would like to know if your advisory committee on new legislation has completed its consultations and, if so, what stage the legislation is at now.

Hon Karen Haslam (Minister of Culture and Communications): Yes, we did have an advisory group. As a matter of fact, the parliamentary assistant in my ministry is chairing that group. It has been looking at proposals that we had put forward, which did take into consideration those that were published by the previous government in 1990.

Feedback on the proposals has been very useful as they are looking over some of those things and working them out. They would like to go back to the constituents they represent to review what they've been working on. I'm expecting them to give a final report to me at the end of the summer.

Mr Winninger: Minister, when can the people of Ontario expect a new bill to be introduced in the Legislature?

Hon Mrs Haslam: It is a major concern for many people out there -- I'm well aware of that -- but I am looking forward to this report coming in at the end of summer. We will have a chance to review it and draw up legislation at that time. I am hoping to introduce a new bill for legislation in the winter of 1992-93.

HEALTH BUDGET

Mrs Barbara Sullivan (Halton Centre): My question is to the Minister of Health. She has presented to the House today a budget document that refers, among other things, to the Ontario Medical Association joint management agreement. That agreement has been in effect for an adequate period of time for the results of the first year to be publicly available. It's important, I believe, to all Ontarians that, as the agreement defines the relationship between the government and our doctors, the results of that first year be known and the issues be very clear. Indeed, the chart on page 23 of the document, it seems to me, further confuses the issue.

Would the minister therefore advise the House of the results of the components of the first year of the agreement and the specific cost to the province of the sharing of utilization controls, which we've heard outside this document are substantially above the minister's predictions when the agreement was first signed? Would the minister further advise the House if as a result of the first year of operations she has put forward to the OMA a new proposal to revise the utilization for handling in its current negotiations? If yes, what is that new formula proposal?

Hon Frances Lankin (Minister of Health): I can give a partial answer to the member's question and try and forward the rest of the information to her as soon as possible. I can tell her that with respect to last year there are still a number of billing accounts outstanding. She will understand that our relationship with doctors in the processing of bills does happen on a lag basis, some time following the fiscal year, so in order to give her full figures, I will have to take that part of the question under advisement.

I can tell her the parts of the agreement we found successful. With respect to the threshold, about $33 million was saved last year and we expect about the same this year. We've projected that; you can see that in the budget. With respect to the utilization formula, our experience is that for last year the sharing of the utilization produced a $50-million repayment to the government. Because we had to wait until we had seen most of the figures for last year to be able to assess and apply the formula, those dollars are actually going to be retrieved in this year. You can see that we have both this year's projected amount of $50 million plus the amount from last year.

The other thing that's backed out of the OHIP vote for this year is the one-time retroactive payment that was paid out in a lump sum last year, of $138 million. With respect to the numbers that have been bandied around, the member may be referring to the projections in the press of an increase around 11% to 14%. If she looks earlier on in the document she will see a table which shows the increased costs year over year --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Would the minister conclude her response, please.

Hon Ms Lankin: I will attempt to, Mr Speaker, but I was asked a very specific question about numbers and I'm attempting to respond. I'll conclude by saying that with regard to the year over year, you will see that as we have tried to back out the one-time payment to give you a more accurate reflection, the increase of the total OHIP vote was about some 7%. I will have to get back to you with a breakdown of what portion of that was attributable to other payments, like out-of-country and other practitioners, which are not part of the OMA agreement.

Mrs Sullivan: My second question relates to another agreement which was made by the Minister of Health in October of last year when she announced that $1.31 per resident per day would be paid to nursing homes to begin a formula of equivalency of care with homes for the aged. A second payment was due on April 1, 1992. That payment has not been made. I'm asking the minister if she will advise the House why the payment has not been made and when it will be made.

Hon Ms Lankin: I assume that this is supplementary in the vein of being related to the overall budget document and expenditures for the year, and with a little bit of latitude, we'll get into the second question the member has. It's a very good question --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Will the minister take her seat.

Two points here: First of all, I'm allowing the supplementary. It is vaguely related to the first question in that it has to do with expenditures. Second, ministers should be aware that if a lot of details can be supplied in addition to a normal response; items can be tabled as well.

Hon Ms Lankin: Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is not the first time I have been chastised by the Speaker for my lengthy answers. I do, however, try to provide real information when questions are asked. You can't win: If you don't give the information you get accused by the opposition of ducking the question.

However, to try to be brief with respect to the question asked, the member is quite correct that the implementation date announced was April 1. In the ministry's normal course of events, that would have been paid out May 1. There is always a one-month process. Apparently -- and I didn't find this out until we got the calls from the association directly -- the ministry changed accounting procedures. I was unaware of this and the payment will be paid out on June 1.

I apologize about the delay and confusion. As I said, I wasn't aware of it myself, but that is the reason and we expect the payments will be made June 1.

VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS

Mr Ted Arnott (Wellington): My question is to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. Since early this year, media reports have been circulating that the government is considering introducing video lottery terminals, or VLTs, as they are known. When asked about this issue, many cabinet ministers have continued to assert that the VLT idea was being discussed in cabinet but that no decision had been reached.

Mr Speaker, I have a letter from the minister dated February 6. The letter states that the minister was awaiting a VLT report from the Ontario Lottery Corp and that he expected to receive the report in two months' time, which was about a month ago. Will the minister indicate the status of the Ontario Lottery Corp report and indicate what plans he has for the introduction of video lotteries in Ontario?

Hon Peter North (Minister of Tourism and Recreation): I would like to indicate to the members of the House and to the member across the floor that the government has no intention of going ahead with the VLTs at this time.

Mr Arnott: In the response, if I heard it correctly, the minister has indicated that the government does not intend to go ahead at this time, but I'm not sure if he's talking about tomorrow or next week, so I will continue with my supplementary.

The recent budget states that the government is committed to consulting with affected parties on the introduction of casinos. However, recent experiences with groups associated with video lotteries demonstrate the opposite. The Coin Operators Lottery Association has requested meetings with the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, the Treasurer, the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations and the Chairman of Management Board of Cabinet to discuss the impact video lotteries may have on their operations. This organization represents over 70 operators of video amusements who may be adversely affected if the government proceeds without thorough consultation.

Minister, the Coin Operators Lottery Association has been writing to you for six months requesting a meeting. Will you follow up with your commitment to public consultation and meet with them before the week is out?

Hon Mr North: Over the course of the last few months we have attempted to have an opportunity to talk to as many different people as we can about anything the government was contemplating as far as gaming in this province is concerned. We have had an opportunity to talk to various groups about ideas concerning gaming.

The government is not prepared at this time to go ahead with the video lottery terminals and I think the member across the floor would well know that. Thank you, sir.

PROPERTY ASSESSMENT

Mr Anthony Perruzza (Downsview): Mr Speaker, you are aware that within the city of North York today, residents are receiving their property tax bills and in the city of North York the mayor has circulated a --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Can you pose your question?

Mr Perruzza: My question, Mr Speaker, in the absence of the minister for the greater Toronto area, is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

The mayor for the city of North York, as I was drawing to your attention, is circulating a flyer which quite frankly is misleading and blames every other level of government for property tax increases other than his own. Given that in Metropolitan Toronto there are six local municipalities --

Mr David Turnbull (York Mills): You are the one who voted for property taxes.

The Speaker: Order. The member for York Mills, come to order.

Mr Perruzza: -- and one regional government, it should come as no surprise that this often contributes to much of the confusion --

Mr Turnbull: It is your side that is doing it, your government which is downloading.

The Speaker: Will the member take his seat. Would the member for York Mills come to order. Member.

Mr Perruzza: Thank you. I believe the Reichmanns live in the riding of the member for York Mills, so that's why he's not concerned about property taxes. But in my riding, they're very concerned and I wish he would listen.

Given that in Metropolitan Toronto -- I'll try it again -- there are six local municipalities and one regional government, it should come as no surprise that this often contributes to much of the confusion experienced by taxpayers about who is responsible for what service. Will the minister give some indication that he is looking at Metropolitan Toronto government with particular attention to the cost-saving aspects that could be achieved by consolidating the services under one level of government for the entire Metropolitan Toronto area?

Hon David S. Cooke (Minister of Municipal Affairs): The member indicated when he was asking the question that he asking me in the absence of the minister responsible for the greater Toronto area. I would like to indicate to the member that I will certainly relay the question to the minister responsible for the greater Toronto area, and I'm sure she would want to respond at the appropriate time.

Mr Perruzza: I'd like to thank the minister for fielding the question, and I will probably be asking the minister responsible at another date.

HOUSING POLICY

Mrs Yvonne O'Neill (Ottawa-Rideau): My question is to the Minister of Housing. Over six weeks ago the Ontario March of Dimes, which provides attendant care services to support service live-in units in at least 10 centres across Ontario, began to ask questions about this government's commitment to supportive housing for the disabled.

I quote from the press release issued by the Ontario March of Dimes on March 25, 1992:

"Central Place in Hamilton developed by the Pilgrim United Church and Kin Village in Markham developed by the Kinsmen are ready for occupancy immediately. When the provincial Ministry of Housing committed funding for the construction of these projects, they did so with the expectation that the Ministry of Community and Social Services would make funding available to provide attendant services to the projects' disabled tenants."

It also states: "Without attendant care funds from the provincial government, the units must now be rented to tenants who may not need the special features."

Are you willing, Madam Minister, to permit these specially designed units to be rented to tenants who do not need the many special features built in rather than fulfil your government's commitment to supportive housing for disabled individuals who want to live independently in this province?

Hon Evelyn Gigantes (Minister of Housing): There have been, as the member points out, a number of projects in which concerns have arisen about arrangements for support services, when the sponsorship by the March of Dimes seemed to indicate to them that they were in a position to be able to say this was going to be supportive housing in which people could, for example, expect attendant services.

It has long been the practice of the ministry, which the member will be aware of, that there is an obligation on the part of the applicant, the sponsor of the housing, to provide information about any special supportive services which are supposed to be incorporated into such a development and to be able to assure the Ministry of Housing when such a project is moving ahead, with the understanding of the Ministry of Housing that those supportive services are indeed going to be funded by the Ministry of Community and Social Services. That was not the case in these projects.

Mrs O'Neill: I am having a lot of difficulty understanding that answer. I really am. Central Place in Hamilton and Kin Village in Markham were built on a promise that support service live-in units would be provided with attendant care services -- that was part of the approval process and I have checked that as late as noon today -- to meet the basic needs of the active disabled people who can live independently in their own communities. For over two months Central Place and Kin Village have waited for an answer from this NDP government.

The hopes of 34 disabled individuals are in jeopardy. Perhaps they have even been dashed, or should I say, after that answer, trashed. Madam Minister, will you and the Minister of Community and Social Services move immediately to restore affordable, accessible and supportive housing to the disabled in Hamilton and in Markham as they have so long awaited?

Hon Ms Gigantes: To put it very simply, the Ministry of Housing agrees to build housing; it does not provide services. The group which sponsors the project is responsible for having the agreement. When the member says the group was promised, the group was certainly promised housing, which the Ministry of Housing has delivered, as she pointed out. It is the responsibility of the group, however, to make sure that support services are available when they are making promises to people to whom they make promises.

In this case the Ministry of Housing has been working with the March of Dimes to try to see if in some of these cases, and there have been more than two projects involved -- in some of these cases we have been able to work out arrangements; in others it hasn't happened yet.

WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD

Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Waterloo North): My question is for the Minister of Labour. On November 21, 1991, in response to a question I asked you regarding the Workers' Compensation Board and the hearings it is conducting on the inclusion of stress, you indicated, "The member understands that the Workers' Compensation Board operates on its own; it has an arm's-length relationship with the government," and I agree it should.

In light of this arm's-length relationship between the WCB and the government, can you explain why a new pilot project was recently announced, as part of the Ontario government relocation program for Windsor, which will see the expansion of the WCB bureaucracy by some 150 to 200 positions, thereby using the WCB levies on employers to fulfil the government's political commitments?

Hon Bob Mackenzie (Minister of Labour): I'm sure the member realizes that the WCB does operate on its own and that we are not directing it in terms of its operations.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Time for oral questions has expired. Motions? Petitions?

ATTENDANCE OF MEMBERS

Mr Will Ferguson (Kitchener): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Prior to the start of question period today the member for Mississauga West stood on a point of order, and we on this side of the House think it's important in so far as you've decided to look at it.

But, Mr Speaker, we also want to point out, and we would hope you would consider, that during the entire question period over half of the Liberal caucus in fact was not present. We on this side of the House encourage them to attend so at least they would take the opportunity, on behalf of their constituents whom they're supposed to be representing, to ask questions of the ministers of the crown and in order to obtain the necessary information.

We recognize that with the nice weather it's very difficult to get an early tee-off time on days like this unless you book far enough in advance. What we want to suggest to the members opposite is that, this being the case, they should be looking at booking some tee-off times so they get an earlier tee-off time much further in advance.

Mr Steven W. Mahoney (Mississauga West): Mr Speaker --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Would the member take his seat, please.

To the member for Kitchener, I appreciate the contribution and his advice and, as I had indicated earlier, a point was raised by the member for Mississauga West. I undertook to review the matter and to report back as soon as possible.

Mr Mahoney: I don't know if it's even worth responding so I won't, but on a point of order, Mr Speaker: I would like to make it absolutely clear that my point of order was based, to you, sir, on a question that surrounds parliamentary tradition. Parliamentary tradition is that the opposition compiles a list of questions that it wishes to ask and that we share House duty among all of our colleagues throughout the week.

The tradition also requires that members of the government -- the cabinet forms the government -- be here so that we indeed have the opportunity to ask those questions. We meet each morning to discuss who will be up and who will be asking the questions.

All this member is showing is that he's completely insensitive to the parliamentary traditions that are long-standing in this place. They do not include having 40% of the government being absent. We were here prepared to do our job, organized, set up with our questions so that we could ask the government and hold it accountable, and it's completely irresponsible that 40% of the cabinet --

The Speaker: Would the member take his seat. The member has reiterated the points he drew to my attention earlier. I will deal with the matter.

PETITIONS

MUNICIPAL BOUNDARIES

Mr Gregory S. Sorbara (York Centre): This is a petition relating to the annexation of the city of London. It reads as follows:

"To the Legislature of Ontario:

"Whereas the report of Mr John Brant, arbitrator for the greater London area, has recommended a massive, unwarranted and unprecedented annexation by the city of London;

"Whereas the arbitration process was a patently undemocratic process resulting in recommendations which blatantly disregarded the public input expressed during the public hearings;

"Whereas the implementation of the arbitrator's report will lead to a destruction of the way of life enjoyed by the current residents of the county of Middlesex and will result in the remnant portions of Middlesex potentially not being economically viable;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"That the Legislature of Ontario reject the arbitrator's report for the greater London area in its entirety, condemn the arbitration process to resolve municipal boundary issues as being patently an undemocratic process and reject the recommendations of a massive annexation of land by the city of London."

It's signed by a number of people who are very concerned about that issue.

RENT REGULATION

Mr David Turnbull (York Mills): I have a petition. It reads:

"Whereas the proposed Rent Control Act, Bill 121, will prevent apartment owners from carrying out needed repairs to apartment buildings;

"Whereas this law, if enacted, will be detrimental to the interests of tenants and landlords across the province; and

"Whereas the rent freeze legislation, Bill 4, has already put thousands of workers on the unemployment rolls and Bill 121 threatens the permanent loss of 25,000 jobs;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"To scrap the proposed Rent Control Act; to encourage the government of Ontario to work with tenants, landlords and all interested parties to develop a new law which will be fair to all; and to ensure that in this new legislation the interests of housing affordability and tenant protection are balanced with the recognition of the importance of allowing needed repairs to rental apartment buildings to be financed and completed."

This petition is signed by hundreds of people. I affix my signature.

MUNICIPAL BOUNDARIES

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): I have a petition as well.

"To the Legislature of Ontario:

"Whereas the report of Mr John Brant, arbitrator for the greater London area, has recommended a massive, unwarranted and unprecedented annexation by the city of London;

"Whereas the arbitration process was a patently undemocratic process resulting in recommendations which blatantly disregarded the public input expressed during the public hearings;

"Whereas the implementation of the arbitrator's report will lead to a destruction of the way of life enjoyed by the current residents of the county of Middlesex and will result in the remnant portions of Middlesex potentially not being economically viable;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"That the Legislature of Ontario reject the arbitrator's report for the greater London area in its entirety, condemn the arbitration process to resolve municipal boundary issues as being patently an undemocratic process and reject the recommendations of a massive annexation of land by the city of London."

I've affixed my signature to that, Mr Speaker.

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mr W. Donald Cousens (Markham): I have a petition signed by not a large number of people -- there are about 20 here -- but it has come to me through -- I'm not sure how I got it, but it is to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas independent and non-partisan economic studies have concluded that the proposed changes to Ontario labour legislation will increase jobs losses; and

"Whereas they will cause a decline in investment in Ontario; and

"Whereas they will seriously undermine the recovery and the maintenance of a sound economic environment in the province;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Ontario government declare a moratorium on any proposed changes to the labour legislation in the best interests of the people of Ontario."

I've signed this and I hope that Larry O'Connor, the member for Durham-York, will hear it, because he's on a television program with me tonight on this.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GASOLINE TAX AMENDMENT ACT, 1992 / LOI DE 1992 MODIFIANT LA / LOI DE LA TAXE SUR L'ESSENCE

Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for third reading of Bill 86,

An Act to amend the Gasoline Tax Act / Loi portant modification de la Loi de la taxe sur l'essence.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): I realize the member for Etobicoke West has the floor.

Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): Let me just grab my Agenda for People. This document enters into this debate on a very interesting level. The level it interests me at is that during the 1990 election there was much talk made at that time of taxation, of who was going to be taxed, how they would be taxed, how this government was going to pay for the multitude of promises it made on the campaign trail.

Not once in the Agenda for People, the document the member for York South used to outline his ideas of government, was it ever mentioned about a gasoline tax. In fact, Mr Speaker, if you check the Hansards when this government was in opposition, you will find there was much made about a fair billing, a fair gas price across the province of Ontario.

As recently as a few days ago in this House the member for Kitchener was standing in his place as the public apologist for the oil companies, arguing about the cost of transportation and the disproportionate pricing in certain areas in this province. So let me say right off the top that the policy this government had in opposition is very, very different from the policy it has in government.

When we analyse the taxes they spoke of on those fateful days in August and early September 1990 we see a minimum corporate tax, the old minimum corporate tax, which seems to have fallen through the cracks in this government's manifesto. No longer are we discussing minimum corporate tax, because what happened was very surprising.

The member who is the Treasurer today has now found very clearly that those companies he was hoping to extract literally hundreds of millions of dollars from -- and in some cases, he was adding this up to be billions of dollars -- were in fact not paying the taxes for very fair, legal and responsible reasons. So today we have a Treasurer who does nothing short of the public backstroke when it comes to minimum corporate tax.

We have the tax fairness for the working poor promise that I am not certain this government has lived up to. In fact, in the last budget it increased taxes on people earning somewhere in the range of $20,000 a year.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Noble Villeneuve): I wish to remind the honourable member for Etobicoke West that Bill 86, an increase in gasoline tax, is the subject matter. I would really appreciate it if he could limit his remarks to Bill 86.

Mr Stockwell: In a very broad sense, I am dealing with the tax implications and the tax promises, and then in fact the taxes levied by this government, so in a broad sense we must examine this debate from many angles. One of the most important angles that I think you can measure any debate from is the angle of what this government promised during a campaign period and what this government in fact delivered.

The point I'm trying to make to you, Mr Speaker, is that what this government promised during the 1990 campaign and what this government is in fact delivering are two very different, distinctly different things.

We talk about succession duties on estates of the rich and the superrich: not to be heard of. The speculation tax: We haven't heard a thing about the spec tax and so on and so forth. But what we have had from this government are 22 tax increases -- changes in taxes -- in two years. Not one of those tax changes, not one of those revenue changes they've introduced has dealt at all with the promises they made in that election of 1990. Some are saying on the streets -- they're saying it in Etobicoke and I know they're saying it in Scarborough and probably in some of the ridings of members from across the floor -- that maybe --

Mr Larry O'Connor (Durham-York): You don't know what they're saying in Etobicoke.

Mr Stockwell: I know exactly what they're saying. I speak with a number of citizens across Metropolitan Toronto and in Ontario as well. Some are saying that maybe these promises they made with respect to tax fairness were not considered, that maybe some of these promises were simply echoed without much thought and that maybe some of these promises were deceitful. That's what some of the people are saying.

When it comes to Bill 86 the same kind of conversation has been had. The same kind of concern is brought forward. Not once during that campaign in August and September 1990 did the government across the floor talk about increasing the gas tax. Yet here we are today, after seeing two budgets -- if you include the real deficit, probably $22 billion to $25 billion in deficit financing -- and we'll see an increase in the gas tax and the alcohol tax and the cigarette tax and the tax on the working poor.

This budget very clearly has included a tax on the working poor; in fact, so much so that if you earn somewhere in the neighbourhood of $20,000 a year you'll be paying as much as $40 to $45 more a year in taxes. This was never debated.

What do we mete out by this? Where does the debate turn in this House when we have Bill 86 coming forward? A tax on the union worker, a tax on the car retailer and a tax on an industry that is staggering from this economic upheaval. And we've increased the tax on the gasoline that will do nothing at all to rejuvenate this struggling industry. What do we take from that? What I take is this: What the government of today said in the 1990 election isn't worth the powder to blow it to Haiti. It's becoming very apparent when we discuss Sunday shopping and their total abdication of that promise.

We discuss casino gambling and no-fault auto insurance and we talk about all the promises made by this pack. This pack -- and I use that word -- of socialists, during the 1990 debate, has all eroded and basically flip-flops have taken place in this House.

There will be some argument made by this group, this motley crew across the floor that has been elected.

Interjections.

Mr Stockwell: I'm doing my best, Mr Speaker; I know they're getting restless. But there will be some debate from across the floor that they've entered into a very difficult economic recession. The answer must be put to them that there are issues involved in the Agenda for People, not the least of which is Bill 86 and the gas tax, that have nothing to do with fiscal responsibility and revenue generation and tax. They simply are to do with the principles and values that the government held dear on this side of the House, and that it apparently, much to the chagrin of the rank and file NDPers of this province, no longer does.

I am now faced with the unenviable task of going out in the province today and trying to help explain these new tax measures that have been brought forward, not the least of which is the gas tax.

The other point I think should be made very clear is that the government across the floor seems to think tax increases are inevitable. They sell this tax hike as, "We must use it to raise revenue." I think that's the basic mistake, the basic flaw in the argument of the socialists. They assume that taxes and tax increases are inevitable.

I think the debate we need to centre on today is not the Bill 86s of the world, not the increase in the surtax, not reducing the wealth tax from $83,000 to $53,000; that's not the debate we must enter into. The debate that must take place is taking the same revenue pie, and rather than adding to that pie through new taxes or increases in licences to camp in the province of Ontario -- which is another interesting method they've got in raising more revenue -- you must take the same pie and spend it differently. You must have priorities.

This is where the Bill 86 debate is centred around a discussion that we have in this House and that they do not have in the general public. The general public isn't talking about new ways of taxation and new ways of extracting money from their pockets. They're asking me, and I believe they're asking the members opposite, to take the same revenues, take the same amount of money you've had in the past, and spend it differently. If they have priorities over there, Mr Speaker, they should take from those that aren't so important and spend it on their priorities.

This is why this debate we have in this House is so totally excluded from reality, because no one in the general public is talking about --

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): Talk about utter reality.

Mr Stockwell: Ah, they suggest reality. No one in the general public is talking about new ways to tax. They're not talking about new sources of revenue. They're not talking about how the government can access any more of the money I make. They're talking about how government can change its spending priorities, how government can economize and become more efficient so that maybe it takes less money to operate, or you can take money from one area and put it into another if that's what your priority is.

In effect we're living in a bubble here. We're living in the bubble because we have members who are talking about tax hikes on gasoline and what's an acceptable level. You often hear from the other side of the House, "It's only 1.7 cents, and it's 3.4 cents according to the two hits we're going to give them." Somebody's got to get through to this government and tell it very clearly: It matters not if it was 0.4 cents; it matters not if it was one cent; the simple fact is that people are sick of paying taxes and they're sick of paying increased taxes.

You can debate all you want about previous governments. We saw the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology stand in this House the other day and in my opinion put forward one of the most foolish arguments that any member today could put forward. He defended the tax hike on the gas tax --

Interjection.

Mr Stockwell: I'll ignore him.

He defended his decision on the gas tax hike because he said previous governments have increased it by more. That's the best defence this government can offer: Previous governments did it, so we're going to do it. That's as much thought, as much background and as much work as they've done to defend the decisions of increased taxes on the people of the province today. It's absolutely asinine. It's insane to tell me the best defence you have for increasing gas taxes is that previous governments did it.

When I go across Ontario and Metropolitan Toronto and through Etobicoke and I say to them that as the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology offered, the defence for increases in gas tax and alcohol and cigarettes and personal income tax is, "The governments previous to us have done that; therefore, we have a right to do it too," their response, I will say, is categorical. It's right across the board, no matter what party of people you talk to.

They say to them, "That's unacceptable, it's irresponsible and it's schoolyard logic: Because he can do it, I can do it." That's exactly what's harming this province today: the shortsighted, ill-conceived debate that we get from opposite. The best this government comes up with is, "Previous governments did it, so we should do it too."

Not only is this the wrong time -- and much has been made about the best time for taxes and the worst time for taxes; when it's acceptable to increase taxes and when it isn't. I will say categorically right now that I don't think in the next 10 years you'll find a government elected in this province that will be able to raise taxes of any significant proportion at all; otherwise, in my opinion, they'll be kicked out of office. I think the people of Ontario are that fed up. The point has clearly been missed by the members opposite. It was clearly missed in this budget and it was clearly missed in portions of the last budget.

To measure the impact of this gas hike, you only have to go to places like Windsor, Niagara Falls, St Catharines and Cornwall and you can measure the devastation of this kind of tax. What it does is breed cross-border shopping. It breeds an attitude by our constituents, the people of Ontario, that justifies in their minds a right to shop outside the province. That right is justified in their minds because we are so overtaxed, so overregulated. "I should be able to go across the border, because I can't