Manitoba Hansard — 8 May 1978 (Sitting 37B, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-37b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Vol. XXVI No. 378 26 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker 8:00 p.m.Monday, May 8, 1978 Printed by P.N. Crosbie - Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 8, 1978 Time: 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - PUBLIC WORKS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. James R. Ferguson: Gentlemen, we now have a quorum and we will be consider ing Page 71 of your Estimates Book, 3.(

d) Purchasing Bureau-pass; 3.(d)

(1) Salaries pass - The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, on (

e) could we have the SMYs again? There's been an increase of $30,000 in Salaries here. MR. ENNS: No, there 's an increase of $18,900 here. Salaries pos ition remains at 42 SMYs, that is 42, 42- I think I said this just before the supper hour adjournment , I think we passed that. MR. DOERN : No, you're on the wrong item. You're on (

d) but we're on (e). MR. ENNS: (e) - The SMY situation here is unchanged at 36 SMYs. The increase of $29,400 provides for the genera l salary increase and the annual merit increment. MR. DOERN: Could the Ministe r indicate, does he have any general comment here about the Materials branch, whether he intends to continue it as is or possibly expand its activities in terms of warehousing, distribution of materials, etc .? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to answer the honourable member 's question seriously, I suppos e the overall future of the Department of Public Works I see encompassing something that probab ly the former Minister of Public Works would have liked to see encompassed . In other words, that it could become in fact , the government services department.

And therefore I don 't see any curtailment or decrease in this thing , and I say this as a Conservative, not because I wish to empire build, but simply because even in the short time that I've been in th is portfolio, that there are different aspects of government service as distant as MDS, for instance, the Manitoba Data Service group , and encompassing totally the purchasing aspects of all government departments which, despite the efforts of the previous Minister- and I don 't fault him for that- but simply because of the tenacity of line departments that insist on doing it themselvess .

I don't see a diminution of the activity of the Materials Branch in this sense and I'm really expanding that to the department as a whole . As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I'd say that despite the overall impression that is left by the Lyon administration, I predict a substantial growth in the Department of Public Works . MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)(1 )-pass; 3.(e)(2)-pass; 3.(f)(1 )Salaries -pass . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, could we have the SMYs here? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the SMYs in this appropriation are 28. The Estimate for 1977-78 unchanged; for 1978-79, 28 SMYs.

There is an increase of $19,800, provision again for general salary increase, annual merit increment, and we have an addition there due to the installation of the Centrex at the Fort Osborne Complex Funds, for which one SMY was deleted . Just funds again, the SMY position remains. MR. DOERN: Has there been any loss of staff because of automation here? There obviously has in MTS been some reduction in operators, and we have operators working for the Provincial Government. Has there been any reduction because of automation? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised to date that there is none at the present time, but there is a possibility that one position will be lost here. MR. DOE: There has also been a reduction . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . Gentlemen, could I request that you be acknowledg ed before ... MR. DO ERN: There has been a reduction of staff again, using my figures of $1,000 to $1 ,500.00. The Minister doesn't give us a figure, but he doesn't think it's that large, but there has been some reduction by attrition and some firings in the government.

Whatever the percentage is, 10 percent or less, has there been any corresponding reduction in the number of telephones because of the lessening number of staff and some sort of consolidation of existing telephones? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, while there may be some less telephones, it hasn't done away with any 1867

Monday, May 8, 1978 exchanges and I can categorically state that there has been no firings and no reductions of staff in that manner. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)(1 )-pass; 3.(f)(2)-pass; 3.(g)(1 )Salaries-pass; 3.(g)(2)0ther Expenditures-pass-- The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, again, could we have the SMYs here again? MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.{g)? MR. DOE: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ttle Minister of Public Works. MR. ENNS: Post Office, SMYs are 27.26, no change; the modest increase of $8,300 represents the usual provision for general salary increase and the annual merit increment.

One SMY has not been funded in this Resolution , the SMY position being maintained , however , by the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)(2)-pass- the Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm just wondering in terms of policy here, whether the Minister has given any though to the question of the ever increasing use of private couriers . There seems to always be a number of these pink ladies and zipper services and all these.

I'm just wondering whether the Minister has given any thought to either attempting to curtail this or whether he's thinking of instituting possibly a government service that would perform a similar function, because this obviously is a costly factor . It is being used by the Civil Service and being used between departments. Does the Minister know, for example , how much money is being spent in this area? Dowehaveaball park figure, and has hH given any plans or directions to curtailing it or limiting it, because it's an ever expanding field? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, before I answer that question, perhaps you could , as a general directive, ask some of the memb13rs to the left of the table to join the Honourable Member for Elmwood. He does look so lonely there . Thank you, thank you . It appears to add some substance to his questioning . {lnterjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Kildonan on a point of order . MR. FOX: I'm just wondering whether the Minister's picking on the Member for Elmwood .

After all, I was in the room and I was quite able to hear everything that was being said, and I resent having it on the record that the Member for Elmwood is alone- he's not. He's got me here, and a moment ago he had the Member forSt:. Vital, and we have a P .A. system which lets us all hear, and of course we can always get up to the microphone when we want to speak, so there should be no problem. Now, if that's a concern , I want to put the Minister's heart at rest that everything 's under control - no problem . MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a very good point of order, Mr. Member. Now, we're back to 3.(g)(2).

On the same point of ordElr, the Minister of Public Works. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, on that point , I was merely expressing what I would expect to be an acceptable Christian sense of charity to the Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.{q)(2)-pass - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I didn 't get an answer . I asked a question of the Minister about these pink ladies, etc. Is he qoing to do something about it? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I admit to exercising a diversionary tactic because I did not want to put the Member for Elmwood on record with agreeing to one of the recommendations of the Task Force, which, whether it's particularly stated in the report, has sent or circular ized to the departments the very same concern that the Member for Elmwood now expresses , that is the abuse or the over-use of the special high-priced cour ier service. I concur with the honou rable member, and we have circularized to all ministerial departments , that we should {

a) either use the internal means of transmitting information or just use Her Majesty 's post office , even acknowledging thatthat's getting more expensive every day. But nonetheless, I accept the member 's question in this regard as being legitimate and I think that ought to be one that the administrative people within the departments ought to consider before they phone up the courier service, sometimes perhaps covering up their own negligence in not ~Jetting information out on time, or doing their work on time, and here now I'm chastizing the entire staff . There should be time enough to move that information between 1868

Monday, May 8, 1978 governmental offices without the use of special courier services. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)(2)-pass . The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DO ERN: Does the Minister have a figure, a ball-park figure, on the amount of moneys spent on these courier services? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , within the Department of Public Works, we don't as a rule use that service. I think that's a legitimate question for an order for return and we would certainly be prepared to compile that figure for him . I think it's a legitimate question . MR.

DO ERN: Speaking of orders for return, I just want to clarify something we debated a few days ago, and if the Minister wants an OC, I'll give him one; otherwise if he'll give me an undertaking I won't submit one. And that had to do with the question of vacant space. I'm just wondering, there are certain things I've asked in the last couple of days, I'm just wondering whethertheMinisterwould on his own authority ask fort he compilation of vacant space and which buildings and so on and soon, or would it be best for me to submit an order for return? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , it can go either route, but I'm prepared with the staff present to undertake , and I would ask staff to take note of that , that this information will be forthcoming . Now, I would ask the member 's indulgence , if it's not forthcoming in due course then he may have to prompt my memory about it, but we have submitted some information . If he needs a redefinementofthatwe will do that , but there 's no problem with supplying that. MR. DOERN: Well, if I could just clarify , I would like . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Just a moment. Let's just stop the dialogue between one another.

I think you have to be recognized by the Chair so that the reporting equipment picks it up. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: If I could have a list of the vacancies and the number of square feet and the buildings in which they are contained? MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)(2)-pass ; 3.(g)

(3) Postage-pass; 3.(h)- pass - The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, on Recoverables, I wanted to make a genera l comment. The Task Force appears to contradict itself in regard to that matter in regard to this department. They talk on one particular page, on 129 of the Task Force under Public Works , about how they want a system for allocating the full costs to ueer departments and agencies for the services provided to them including rent for the use of facilities provided . So this is what they are pushing, charge-backs, and there are charge-backs in many portions or aspects of Public Works. Yet further on under the

section relating to land acquisition on Page 133 they come up with the following quote, "The charge-back system is really just a nuisance to the department and its elimination would produce negligible cost-savings and minimal improvements in the Branch's efficiency ." So I say, I don't know what the Minister makes of this . I see this as a direct contradiction and I simply caution him when he's reading the Task Force Report, not to take it too seriously because there are internal inconsistencies. MR.

ENNS: The Member for Elmwood , who has some knowledge of my background, will recognize that I will weigh heavily all recommendations made by the Task Force . MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(h)-pass . Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,957,700 for Public Works. MR. ENNS: Page by page, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 107: 4.(

a) Salaries-pass- the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, this is an area of considerable interest to our MLAs, namely the future of the Gimli Industrial Park, and I wonder if the Minister first of all would just give us the SMYs, then I'd like to put a few questions to him . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , the allotment of SMYs remains constant at 74. The increase allows for the usual general salary increase and the annual merit increment. There is a decrease of 2 SMYs for which salary hasn't been provided in this . MR. DOERN: Two vacancies? MR. ENNS: Two vacancies , yes. MR. DO ERN: Can the Minister give us a general statement- well, could he answer this question as 1869

Monday, May 8, 1978 well. He tells us that there are 74 SMYs, Public Works personnel, etc., on the base. Can he tell us how many private people are employed there? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that that's a pretty difficult question to answer . l can say in a general way that the overall industrial expansion or use of that facility is encouraging, that if you take it from the first dark days when the armed forces removed their presence from that base, we have a growing list of private and industrial and commercial firms that are operating at the Gimli Industrial Park.

We have a problem with it in Public Works; I don't particularly assess that as being my major responsibility in the sEmse that Industry and Commerce as such has an on-going responsibility. If they in fact wish to be part of the encouragement of the industrial growth at Gimli Park, then they have to be part of it. We have a problem whereby our rental system is still basically subsidizing the entire operation of thE! Gimli Industrial Park as was the case throughout the tenure of the former Minister of Public Works' responsibility in this area.

I can only indicate that we have not made any changes at this time, although there are pressures to bring rental rates, revise them upwards to a more realistic level. I can indicate to the honourable member- and I think it's worthwhile reading into the record some oi the activity that is taking place at Gimli Industrial Park. We tend to think that subject to the massive and colossal failure of Saunders Aircraft, for which the people of Manitoba will have to pay for many y1ears, dearly , but nonetheless there have been important strides taken to offset that situation .

In total I am advised that we now have upwards of 210 people employed in the private sector in the Gimli lnclustrial Park. MR. DOERN: That's three times what we have. MR.

ENNS: And this involves such diverse situations as the CNR training School, the Gimli Children's Centre , Colonial Sawmill , Dawsco Industries, Global Plastics, Graf-Tech, the Kinsmen Club which runs the re!creational hall , Lake Winnipeg Boat Works , EEE of Canada, Ontario Central Airlines Limited, Misawa Homes, Original Wooden Works , Saunders Aircraft is still in there with some employees, and some of them may be gone, this is the list that is being supplied to me at the moment; Shorepoint Village, Thomas Upholstery, VIP Modular Construction, A no Roofing Services, Cook's Sporting Goods , the Department of Mines and Resources has a complement in there, Gimli Motors, Gimli Motorsports Park, Interlake Aviation, Interlake Avionics, Mid-Canna Para Sports, Northland Freight and Forwarding, Patricia Air Transport, Peter's Northland Missions, Red River Community College has an adult education complementand Aspen Lodge.

So, in other words, the activity at Gimli Industrial Park is there. We hope that it will continue to be there . We hope that we can put it on a base, an economic base that it will in the future not require the subsidization of the M1ember for Elmwood 's hard working constituents in that constituency to pay from their pay cheque to allow an industry to survive in Elmwood. I would just as soon they do it on their own and we are working towards that end. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4.{a)-pass - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DO ERN: Mr.

Chairman , I think that my constituents would rather help support a viable industry like ... MR. ENNS: Have you asked them lately? MR. DOERN: Rather than support these people on welfare. That I believe is the option . But the Minister is saying that he has some confidence in the Park at least that's the way I understood him, and therefore , even though there is some loss on the yearly balance sheet, that he doesn't intend to either sell the Park in some fashion or close the Park, that he intends to continue to operate it as best he can. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, there will be no fire sales within the Department of Public Works during my tenure of office . MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)-pass; 4.(b) - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just another question here. Does anyone have a figure on the payroll, first of all the Public Works payroll and secondly the private payroll. My figure was it was of the order of $4 million a year. I don't know if we have any comparable figures there? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , just off hand without consultation staff , the payroll as indicated in the Estimates before you, tl1e individual payroll of the private companies involved in the industrial park are not within my realm of competence to answer. I suppose they could be complied with, but not during this stage of the considerations . MR. DOERN: Just on simple mathematics, it would indicate that the payroll, government payroll is $937 thousand and since the private sector has three times the number of employees, we could 1870

Monday, May 8, 1978 assume that the total would probably be of the order of $4 million, which is pretty vital to the community. The other question is on the CNR which is a very successful operation, people from all over Canada take their training there, has the CNR construction been completed? I believe there was a $3 million capital item there for their requirements. Has that now been fully constructed? MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the construction is ongoing and will be completed on or about June 27th, towards the latter part of June. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4.(a)-pass; 4.(b)-pass; 5.(

a) Land Acquisition

(1) Salaries-pass- the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Could we have the SMYs there , there's an increase of $35,000 for Salaries, could we have a breakdown? MR. WALDING: On a point of order, did we pass the resolution for No. 4.-107? MR. CHAIRMAN: I may have neglected that , 4.(a}, 4.(b}-pass; yes, they were all passed. The total of $1 ,695,800.00. Okay , now 5, 5.(

a) Land Acqu isition Branch (1} Salaries -pass; MR. DOERN: Could we have the SMY breakdown? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the SMY breakdown in this division is 48.26, that has remained unchanged . That was the SMY allocation for the year 1977-78. The same is being asked for the year 1978-79 for an increase of $29,900 , provides again for the general salary increase in the annual merit increment. No vacancies in this appropriation. MR. CHAIRMAN: ltem5 .(a}(2}-pass; 5.(3}-pass; Item (

b) Land Value Appraisal Commission

(1) Salaries-pass- the Honourable Member for Selkirk . MR. PAWLEY: My question is one theM inister may not be able to deal with, I don 't know , but in the proceedings under the Land Acquisition Branch , in preparation for the hearings before the Land Value Appraisal Commission , usually the owner that has his land being expropriated hires a private accredited land appraiser in order to provide a counter appraisal to that which is being provided by the government.

My information is to the effect that the accredited land appraisers doing the work for the private land owner find that they cannot get the work sheets or the field sheets from our municipal assessors- that's why I say it may not be the proper area to deal with it- but it is creating a problem in obtaining all the fu II and complete information for the Land Value Appraisal Com mission hearings, insofar as the owner, the one that is affected, obtaining that type of information. I see no prejudice to the government in opening up all its files wherever they be so there can be the fullest co-operation .

I don't see where the government is being prejudiced by making available field sheets from its files, so that all the information can be made available to both the government agency and to the owner for a fair hearing . I just would wonder how the Minister would feel aboutthattypeof situation . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'm prompted to ask the honourable member a question, as a lawyer dealing for instance, in a criminal case in law in the courts, does he expect the opposition, the Crown Attorney, to provide him with dossier of all the material gathered, so that he can present a better case? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Selkirk . MR. PAWLEY: Could I answer that please?

What has happened, and in fact I'm pleased to say that during the period I was Attorney General, and the present Attorney General is wisely carrying on, is a system of pre-trial disclosure in which all pertinent information is disclosed, in that way and the advise that I'm receiving, is that both the Crown and the accused are saving a great deal of time and money, full disclosure . Because , it's not a game of trickery , it's really a situation by which all pertinent information should be set on the table .

For instance , in the very type of situation the Minister referred to, if the identity of the parties is not in doubt, then it should be freely acknowledged before trial. If the Crown puts on the table all its information then frequently its found that there is no need for a trial. The matter is dealt with in a preliminary fashion, eliminating a great deal of time and money. You know, Mr. Chairman, traditionally the attitude of the Crown has been in criminal matters to some way or other feel that it's a tug-of-war , and you keep back certain information , but it's been found, not only in Manitoba but 1871

Monday, May 8, 1978 throughout Canada now, that it's better to provide all pertinent information, cutting down on time and money . And, I wo ld think the same principle -I'm glad the Minister has raised the example he did - I think the same principle should be applied here and money could be saved for both government and the pri vate sector without hurting anyone , as long as there's full and complete disclosure, I see no problem. Why can't we all work with facts, why does there have to be some sort of chess game. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , firstly , the appraisal made by the Land Value Appraisal Commission, is binding only on the 'government in the sense that it sets the seal of approval, of being what is considered to be a reasonable and fair compensation for land being expropriated . It is not binding on the party that the land is being expropriated from, and in no way does it inhibit that party from pursuing his recourse to the courts to argue any findings of the Land Value, or any decision of the Land Value Appraisal Commission . But, Mr.

Chairman, I'd rather , if I can, suggest to the honourable Member for Selkirk that it's my intention to open up the Land Acquisition Act during the course of this session for some amendments, and the points raised by the Honourable Member for Selkirk I would invite and suggest are valid points to be atrgued in the House when that bill is being reviewed . The honourable member has been a member long enough to realize that even though we may open the bill to what the department may consider minor amendments, it does open up the bill, and I might say the amendments being proposed are not so minor.

There will be, in my judgment, the opportunity for a relatively major discussion of how the public, in the name of the government, acquires land- it will be open for that kind of a debate within the House. And, I, not to curtail the member's comments tonight at this committee stage, suggest to him in all sincerity that that opportunity will be there to raise those matte rs with respect to the manner and way in which the public acquires land. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , I appreciate very much what the honourable member has indicated and I am pleased to hear that the Act will be reopened .

With respect to the particu lar comment relating to the question I raised , the problem with appeal is that if the party is tal< en by surprise at the Land Value Appraisal Commission with information they didn't have before and they haven't had an opportunity to refute that informati on, then in fact we are driving parties to appeal to other courts, which is really not what any of us would want. Our courts are clogged up sufficiently as it is.

Where if there is full disclosure, then there is less likelihood that it requires adjudication by higher courts in order to deal with the findings, in this case, by the Land Value Appraisal Commission . Secondly, I want to ask the Minister- and I shouldn't reflect upon my own profession - I can't help but wonder if sometimes the costs that are awarded , legal costs that are awarded, taxed. I was somewhat concerned during the final period of our term in government when I saw a tax bill of costs that was allowed re the legal fees of a lawyer acting for a landowner.

If there is need of some tightening up there , if in fact the Provincial Treasury is not paying a lot of money out to the legal profession, well the le~Jal profession may in fact be operating under some abuse? Now, I don't know whether they are or not, but I do believe that it is an area that should be examined as to potential abuse. Another area that I would like to just ask the Minister as well for his comments . Did theMemberfor Wolseley agree with me?

Another area that I wonder about is that I do believe that there are instances when landowners successfully process their land toward a rezoning, knowing full well that the expropriation process is underway, thus upping the price of the land, thus costing the Crown much more. I believe that this has been quite a problem. It seems to me that our planning authorities have to exercise tighter control in respect to this type of situation .

Secondly, I want to ask the Minister whether or not the Land Value Commission is still operating on the basis of trying to dicker out negotiated settlements prior to the filing of the Notices of Expropriation , because in that process they tend to up the value of the land? The Notice of Expropriation, as you know, determines the value as of the date that notice is filed in the Land Titles Office ,

whereas the dickering and processing th rough negotiations can up the price before the notice is filed , to the dl3triment of the provincial treasury. I think it was changed, I think the process was changed in 1976 or 1977 but I am wondering if that still is the process by which the notice is filed first , the negotiations take place afterwards , rather than as had been the case for a number of years, negotiation and then notice and thus the inflating of the value of the land because of the dickering that had taken place . MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I will take most seriously the advise from the former Attorney General that some monitoring of the charges that sometimes occur when members of his profession are involved in the transaction of lands take place . I think that is appropriate advice that I am receiving from the Member for Selkirk.

In the bigger ques11ion of the method of notice , the entire procedure of government's intention when they begin to express an interest in a property, and the then domino effect of what the member indicated that then gets parlayed through different means to in effect increase, through various means, either through rezoning tactics , which I again remind the honourab le member, is usually spurred on and often encouraged by the use of good counsel. MR. PAWLEY: In which the Crown pays a legal bil l for it. 1872

Monday, May 8, 1978 MR. ENNS: In which the Crown pays the legal bill for it. No, Mr. Chairman, I find myself in a great deal of empathy with whatever the Member for Selkirk is saying right now . l can only say that there is the kind of double responsibility, I suppose, on the Crown to on the one hand - just as the honourable member argued just a little while ago with respect to providing full and complete information to such a body as the Land Value Appraisal Commission- that, where does the fine line come?

A moment ago the member argued that whether it is government or municipal offices, should open up their files completely to all parties with respect to whatever plans municipal authorities or government authorities, provincial government authorities had, with respect to certain properties. He said that without that you were not really giving the property owner a full and fair opportunity to present his case before that kind of a tribunal.

Well, what the honourable member is now suggesting is that in some way- whether it is an awkward way or not - by predicting the potential use, or serving notice of the government's intention to acquire or want to acquire certain lands, without the formal Notice of Expropriation coming first of all, that that in effect is driving up needlessly the price to the public purse for those lands.

I would have to suggest to the honourable member that it is rather difficult to have it both ways, that if in fact plans are within the municipal offices or within the Department of Highways or Water Control to effect certain public works in this particular area, and I have some empathy for that position , to make that known in public to those persons that that will have an effect in terms of their position vis-a-vis a body such as the Land Value Appraisal Board. But I ask the member to reconsider just the contradiction within his own statements of a moment or two ago.

He is now suggesting to me that we should tighten up our Act somehow or other and not forecast by way of notice in advance government intentions or use of certain lands because it does precisely what the member says it does, it escalates the cost up. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , I want to, in responsetotheMinister, and I understand the comments made by him, but I do believe that there is a difference between release of fact and release of intention . I believe that intentions are one thing, but actual facts, actual information is another thing.

I do believe that there is very little excuse at any time to hold to one's chest actual facts, because if you do some will know and some will not know, and some information will leak out to certain individuals, other individuals will remain ignorant and will be prejudiced , but if the policy is that all factual information is available then none are prejudiced. I believe that factual information should be released fully after the notice is actually filed .

I say this for another reason, and I would like to refer to an incident which occurred in the honourable member's own constituency back in 1965 I believe it was when the Hydro transmission lines were built in the Warren district. I recall Hydro dickering with various land owners, and some land owners sold ahead of other land owners , and those that were tougher in the negotiations, and this happens from time to time still, and I don't want to be critical of the land value appraisal people because I know that their job is a tough one, but some land owners realized a much better sum per acre than other land owners.

The end result of it was that some that had signed, if I recall, earlier for a lower price, then found that neighbours had realized a larger price, were so bitter, the Minister can recall - I believe there was one gentlemen, I know the man's name and I won't mention it publicly, who threw himself in front of the bulldozer when the bulldozer was going to enter upon his property because he felt that he had been rooked signing an agreement then finding out his neighbours were realizing a much larger sum. I think the Minister recalls the incident that I'm referring to.

Now, if notices had been filed all at the same time affecting all the land owners in that area, they would have all felt that they were being treated alike. So that that land owner that was toughest to deal with wouldn't end up with a larger sum than the other land owner that had tried to be very reasonable with the government and then find that by his reasonableness he was being taken .

So in fairness to all it's best that the notice, I think , be served, the intention be served, all at the same time so all are treated alike in the first instance, then the information is then made available with full disclosure after that date. I am not saying that I'm right, I'm just saying to the Minister that I do believe these are areas that should be examined . I believe in fairness to the Land Acquisition Branch, I believeforthe last year or two they have filed notices ahead ofthe negotiation process . Mr. Brako may know from the Highways Department.

I just wanted some confirmation that they were still following that practice because it had not been the practice prior to, I believe, 1976 or 1977. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Public Works . MR: ENNS:. Mr. Chairman , it's ~ifficult not to ac~ept the Member for Selkirk's advice as being good adv1ce as g1ven.

I would perhaps JUSt expand to th1s extent, that I have not been happy, in fact in 1968 attempted to do something about it, that is to bring under the authority of the Land Acquisition Branch the total responsibility when the public, in the name of the government, you know the imr:nediate line dep~rtments of government and its agencies in fact acquires land under one agency wh1ch at least has, nght or wrong, but has a tendency of treating all land owners in the same uniform 1873

Monday, May 8, 1978 manner .

That is, brin!~ i ng such agencies as Telephones and Hydro, which are presently excluded from the Land Acquisition Branch, under the jurisdiction of the Land Acquisition Branch, which would at least resolvt~ some of the difficulties that we come into, where in some instances and 1 particularly mention the example that the honourable member mentioned, where you have within the course of a year Hig ways expropriating some land, Water Control expropriating some land, and doing that under the cover and the control of the Land Acquisition Branch; then you have Hydro identified in the public as government, requiring some land, but they do it outside of the jurisdiction of the Land Acquisition people .

And very often they are in thereto acquire the land as quickly as they can, and don't operate under the same rules that apply when Highwafs expropriates lands or when Water Control expropriates lands, or you know, the Department o Education or any other line functioning department of goveinment expropriates lands. Mr.

Chairman, I !::10 so far as to invite the honourable member to perhaps support me in my amendments to The Land Acquisition Act , to indeed bring all acquisition of land by government and its agencies under onEl agency, namely Land Acquisition Branch , so that these anomalies that occur can be lessened. I concur with the honourable member's comments that there have been incidents , but I am sure the Honourable Member for Selkirk will also particular ly concur that they arrive mainly in the area of Hydro acquiring land, not so much Highways for instance, which is another major acquisitioner of land .

We are totally under the jurisdiction of the Land Acquisition Branch and the Land Value Appraisal Commisssion and although we acquire land no easier than any other agency of government , but in total I think perhaps more openly and with more facts being displayed. On the .question that the honourable member raises with respect to fuller disclosure of facts , I again tend to agree with the member , and I'll ask the department to review our practices in that manner. MR.

PAWLEY: I just want to emphasize that it really spills into the Department of Municipal Affairs -and I don 't want the Minister to interpret it as a criticism of his department re release of information -really spills into the Municipal Affairs Department , the Assessment Branch, insofar as these work sheets are concerned . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable for Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Well , I would be remiss if I didn't say how delighted I am that two senior members who have watched these land apprai sal people work for a number of years agree that something has to be done .

I don't have to go back to 1960, I can think of how ill it makes me when I think of the disclosure not only by the former Minister when a number of rumors started that we were going to build an Autopac building and a garage and a number of other things which led to a new breed in the legal profession- they call them ambulance chasers- who were able to stir up the people and cost the taxpayers a great deal of money .

Even our late and former mayor and his future partner in the log business, the now Leader of the Opposition, who let the politicians go to the public forum and announce the Trizec Development and cut ribbons before the notices had even been served, causing the taxpayers to lose another 4 or 5 or 6 million dollars or maybe even greater .

How a commercial desert , which I had thE! pleasure to work in for eight years, all of a sudden there seemed to be bricks under the mortar and I can't help but think that the cost of the Trizec gara!;}e would have been a lot less, so the fault is not solely with the land value appraisal people, the politicians have to take some brunt of the responsib ility for making public statements before the notices are filed .

I can't help but r think that if we are going to do something , we do have members of the legal profession making all sorts of money out of the particular mistake that is made by intention versus fact or political ideas saying that we're goin9 to build an Autopac buildin g here, all of a sudden the Brunswick Hotel which was possibly half empty becomes full and the beer all of a sudden the volume sales go up and leases are signed for 10-20 years. A MEMBER: You can't trust free enterprisers . MR.

WILSON: Well, the point is, to the former Minister of Public Works, part of the problem may have been with his announcement of the $50 million development and part of the problem may have been the massive hard .. hat production at Portag e and Main before the notices had been served with Trizec, and these are the kind of things that I've watched Mr. Nugent and Mr. Arenson make, both their clients and themselves , very handsome legal fees by getting this advance information.

So, I am very pleased that our new Minister is going to look into this and I look forward to lending any information I have o see that we don't , and maybe we'll serve notice tonight that we, the political people that are in power now, are going to see that it doesn't happen and I'm delighted . MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(b)(1 )-pass- The Member for Elmwood . MR. DO ERN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister again on this item on staff-1 assume that there are only two employees in the LVAC and yet there is a $1,400 reduction in salary, what is the present staffing complement and how can there be a reduction in salary?

MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm simply advised that a secretarial position was filled that was vacated and hired at the bottom rung of the salary. 1874

Monday, May 8, 1978 MR. DOERN: So, there is a director and an executive secretary, and a secretary? MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(b)(1 )-pass; (b)(2)-pass; (b)(3)-pass ; Resolution 107-pass: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,695,800 for Public Works-pass . 8Resolution 10, 6.(

a) Fire Code Upgrading-pass - The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, this is a fairly big topic and I would like to get an update. I know the Minister gave us a brief outline the other day, but I have a number of questions for him here, and I wonder if he could start again . I asked him the other day for a copy of his statement as to where the money will be spent , but there is a $5 million figure here, I have a number of questions concerning it. Could he tell us which institutions will be upgraded and give us a general breakdown, at least of the largest expenditures. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , I would ask the honourable member to perhaps avail himself of Hansard . I do not have a specific dollar cost that is being allocated to the individual institutions other than the speci fic $750,000 allocation to the East Grove improvement at the Portage Home for the Retardates . I can tell the honourable member just this, that we have very rough Estimates that the costs of providing the kind of service that we are talking about, the installation of sprinkler services runs at roughly $1 .10 per square foot.

That depends again on site service and thewateravaialable.lt depends on whether or not fire pump installation is necessary, and it depends on someofthecostof any special zoning features that may be applicable to any particular installation.

The Department has a further 10 percent location facto r, but what that means, if the honourable member wants to, and I'm repeating this so that the honourable member can have it on Hansard, he need not worry about the figures right now, but we're looking at servicing at these costs, of $1.10 per square foot , of some 360,000 square feet at the Portage home , a further 340,000 at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre and some 410,000 square feet at the Brandon Metntal Health Centre . These being the major ones.

I indicated in my opening statements, and I would ask again the member to refer to Hansard those statements made with respect to the Headingley Correctional Institute , which is being handled by in house staff . There are still some negotiations taking place with the officers or the officials of the department as to what precisely the requirements are. I indicated to the committee that we have a difficulty with the electric alarm system being tied into the sprinkler system . These negotiations are on going.

These are the three major areas for wh ich we are trying to meet the initial Fire Commissioner 's recommendations of installation of fast and easy exit for the inmates and the installation of early warning systems, smoke detectors or sprinkler alarm systems. I have given the honourable member the rough estimated cost by the department as coming in at roughly $1.10 per square foot. I've indicated the square footage that we are involved with and I think he can transpose them into the total dollars that we are involved with .

I said at the beginning , the $5 million obviously don 't cover these requirements, but I'm advised by staff and by the department and I remind the honourable member, the same staff, the same department that advised him for the last 7 or 8 years that physically speaking, this is what the department realistically thinks we can do in terms of actually getting contracts out, getting tenders out and getting the work done . MR. DOERN: Well, Mr.

Chairman , just on that very last comment, the Minister has given me about one million square feet , roughly one third, one third, one third, at Portage, Selkirk and Brandon, at about $1 .1 0. So, it's about $1 million for those institutions . Is the Minister saying that there is in smaller bits and pieces another $4 million worth . I mean am I to believe that these are the largest, but that there is another 4 million square feet lying around in bits and pieces that they are going to do? I think we own 6 million square feet, you are not surely going to do it all. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I have heard around this committee table during our last sitting, and indeed today, in the House at Question Period , the the Member for Elmwood expressing great concern, indeed one might say, Mr. Chairman, with tears running down his cheek , about those poor underprivileged people that he has shown such a tremendous concern for as of late, namely the architects .

The architects who after all are you might say at the lowest rung oft he economic ladder in the society of Manitoba , and he expressed such deep concern about their welfare . ! would have to say to begin with , there is at least another one million plus involved in designing the work that I've just referred to.

Furthermore , these figures that I read to you, the $1.10 per square foot, relates only to the installation of the sprinkler system, it has nothing to do with the additional requirements such as smoke detectors or fast and easy exit , the provision of fire doors, the provision of fire exits, the provision of the numerous- and they are numerous and voluminous- recommendations of the Fire Commissioner's Code .

I think I also indicated, I thought I was being reasonably fair, for instance, the $750,000 that is being earmarked- probably one of the first project of the East Grove Centre, very little of that can really be attributable to actual fire commissioner's recommendations . It essentially is, while it serves 1875

Monday, May 8, 1978 in the greater and general sense of allowing us to depopulate the second floor and giving us room while we're making some of these changes otherwise, but if the Honourable Member for Elmwood would ask me, this ~)750,000 that is coming under this $1 million , very little of that is directly attributable to Fire Commissioner Codes recommendations.

So, these are some of the areas that I do not wish to belabour, I do not wish to stonewall the Honourable Member for Elmwood with , I just ask his indulgence, recognizing the immense problems and the responsibilities that he left on my frail and weak shoulders when he chose to abdicate that responsibility for reasons I know not why . But here they are, and I have to work with them and I'm doing my very humblt3 best. MR. CHAIRMAN: 108, 6.(a)-pass- the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, you know , I must say that I do have some concern for architects and 1 must tell the Minister quite frankly that he is being referred to outside the House as hardhearted Harry MR. ENNS: That's bHtter than hardhea rted Hanna because I would be going against Anita Bryant then in front of the Convention Centre . MR. DOERN: But I have quite a few questions that flow from the Minister's, comments here. He is telling us now that out of this $5 million figure, that about $1 million of this is for Portage, Selkirk and Brandon for sprinkler systems .

My recollection is that the Fire Commissioner did not recomme nd that these buildings bH fully sprinklered. That I suppose is the Cadillac version as the Minister is so inclined to indicate . I would like to know whether the Minister is sort of on his own deciding whether all of this property should be sprinklered, etc., etc., etc ., because you know, I tell him that I went through a great deal in terms of trying to dig into this question of fire safety and fire protection .

The level of protection starts in the following way; the best protection against fire is people , they are the front line of defence bHcause they can sense fire, they can detect fire , they can save lives under those circumstances . Sprinkler systems are fine. They are very good . They sometimes malfunction. They sometimes don't work at all. But it seemed the best kind of fire protection that one could have would be -let us say in addition to certain types of panic hardware etc. - smoke detectors seem to be excellent for either the home or the institution, and of course a 24-hour a day staff cannot be beaten.

Nothing has been found to equal human beings in that particular area. So, my first question here to the Minister is you are spending over a million dollars in the three institutions , is this in line with a recommendation of the Fire Commissioner, because when I was Minister my understand ing was that there were certain people who wanted to sprinkler everything . There were other people -I'm talking now about Fire Commissioners ' staff- who took the position that if there was 24-hour staff sprinklers were not needed and that smoke detectors were very effective in the prevention of fires and loss of life.

So I ask him, is he acting on his own, making his own judgment, or is this a new recommendation of the Fire Commissioner that he is complying with? MR. CHAIRMAN: ThH Honourable Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , to begin with our advice is that in some instances the Fire Code doesn't , give us a great deal of latitude, and that is the alternatives that the Honourable Member for Elmwood suggests that we can put off, complying with certain physical requirements by the Fire Code can be met simply with additional staff. Our information is such that that is not the case.

The fact of the matter is that the code is there and has to be complied with . Further information is that the route of going through a sprinkler system covers the greatest number of the Fire Commissioner 's recommendations in the most economical way. But even more than that , I would have to be the first one to agree that there are of course the people immediately involved with the institution , and let me refer specifically to the Portage Home .

The professionals , the people who are involved day in and day out and the unfortunate plight of those people in that institution, quite frankly don't want to see us spend a dime at that institution . They want to see us de-institutionalize the population at Portage . They want us to go to community homes and they will not be thankful to this Minister or this government for spending $750,000 at East Grove . They see that as money being not wisely spent and I put that candidly on the record .

The difficulty between their position and my position is that I have to, to the best of my ability, cope with the situation , to hope that my colleague , the Minister of Health , will in his program be able to further that program - with which we have no quarrel - and have proceeded with at least the one home that caused a great deal of publicity during the last five or six months- I am referr ing to the home on Shaftsbury .

The efforts of de-populating Portage are ones that I am in accord with and thus I find no difficulty accepting the advice from my department in saying let's take that route which will cover most of the ground and spending the least money, because I do not see, and I concur with the professionals involved t at the final answer isn't in maintaining the present population at the Portage Home for Retardate s.

I think that some of our difficulties if we de-populate - but we can't de populate until we have the alternate residences available to them- but when that prog ram begins to take effect over the next year or two , it is difficult for me to ask the government or ask the taxpayers of Manitoba to put multi-millions of dollars into upgrading to the final degree a facility that the very 1876

Monday, May 8, 1978 people who are using it, say is outdated , both from a professional point of view and from a physical point of view. So, Mr. Chairman , those are my comments about the situation generally. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, again, just so I understand this completely then, you are intending to spend $5 million .

Most of the money will be spent at Portage, Selkirk and Brandon and this will be for complete sprinklering- Head ing ley as well- complete sprinklering, smoke detectors, fire doors, etc. etc. etc., and those institutions that I mentioned comprise , what , 80 or 90 percent of the $5 million? · MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , with the exception -and I would defer, I may not be entirely clear on this - but I believe that the Department of Health has an additional amount of money scheduled in their appropr iations .

I'm being waved off from the side benches here but it was my understanding that well, you know, I am trying to be as candid and as honest as I can be. I am being asked for a total expenditure. It appears to me, my recollection in going through the Estimates schedule, that there were some moneys set aside in the Department of Health , which I would ask the honourable member to pursue in the Department of Health 's Estimates. But insofar as the Department of Public Works is concerned, and I note the honourable member is noting that and he will now nail my good friend and colleague, Bud Sherman ... MR.

DOERN: You will get part of the credit , though. MR. ENNS: ... but at least refer him to the source , that is, the Min ister of Public Works. But within these Estimates, we have set aside as a realistic figure of dollars that we can physically spend, the sum of $5 million , and we have priorized them in those institutions that the honourable member has mentioned , with the addition of Heading ley and I think there was the School for the Deaf. Again, I think, if I can refer the honourable member to some of the earlier comments that are recorded in Hansard, he will have the complete record of those . MR.

CHAIRMAN: Item 6.(a)-pass- the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , is the Minister telling us that he intends to spend $5 million in those institutions in the next fiscal year? Is that a realistic objective or will it be spread over several years? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am advised, and I repeat for the third time, and let me put on a political hat for a moment . . . MR. DOERN: I didn't think you took it off . MR. ENNS: Well, it has just been off to the side of my halo.

The fact of the matter is, having put the former Minister of Public Works through the wringer on this particular subject matter during the election , you know , I would just appeal to him as a man of reason, as a man of some understanding of what the political process is all about- can you not imagine the pressure that has been put on me by my feisty little Leader , saying , "For God 's sake, get to work on the Fire Commissioner's reports," and we have done that.

We have received , as the member knows the global figures are massive- the global figures run into figures of $48 million , $50 million , $60 mil lion- that we have to expend to bring total compliance within the Manitoba Fire Code Act. This is why there is no attempt being made by this Minister saying that by spending these $5 million , that all public buildings will be in compliance with The Fire Code Act. That is not happening .

But I am also advised that in a physical sense, in terms of getting the work done and getting the architectural work done, getting the design work done, $5 million is a reasonable figure of what we hope to keep, that staff that the member questioned a little while ago is what they are doing, because we are not building Woodsworth Buildings these days. MR. DOERN: You are leasing them , you 're not building them. MR. ENNS: Or Autopac Buildings these days. That's a great deal oft he work that the staff is going to be doing.

I will tell the member quite frankly, and I will tell the committee quite frankly, if the staff would have indicated to me that $7 million or $8 million ought to be expended, then I would have gone for that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I am not finished yet, I think I still have the floor . MR. CHAIRMAN: Very well, the Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: The Minister just gave us a figure which I intended to ask for and that is that by 1877

Monday, May 8, 1978 spen.ding $5 million, he is only scratching the total requirement throughout the system, that the total re~~1rement- he thrE!W out. a fi~.ure and I ~on't.know if he stands by that- he said, "Fort y, fifty, sixty million dollars ~ay be requ1red. Is that ~Is est1fl!ate of what ~ould be required to put government owned propert1es up to complete compliance w1th the new F1re Code? Is it that high? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I can't go on record as Minister of Public Works as saying definitively that that is the figure .

All I know is that I am not attempting to pass off the $5 million as being full compliance with the Fire Commissioner's Code . I have had estimates ranging to those levels.

Now, the Fire Commission•~r·s office will indicate that there is a fair amount of leeway and variances allowed and the Fire Code itself permits appeals to be made to the Fire Code's ruling s, as the member knows, and what might appear as a major expense could be offset as, in fact, the member himself suggested a little whil 1a ago , by perhaps adding staff in one instance or by changing the operational procedure of a building or by doing a number of things.

But I am not backing away from the fact that in total it could be substantial dollars that we are talking about and , you know, just at first flush, when faced in the early occupancy of this office and the department , in just kind of go ing through the buildings that we occupy and the responsibilities that we have for these buildings , these kind of figures were talked about. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , it seems to me that a great deal of care and discretion will have to go into this particular item . l assume that the Minister is intent on meeting these requirements of the new Fire Code but that hE! is also not going into a panic response, that he is also at the same time attempting to priorize what he is doing and to discuss with people, say, in the case of the institutions, future requirements and needs and uses and so on, because in spite of this dramatic attempt, the Minister is telling us that he is still only able to attempt, with a $5 million expenditure, which is a considerable amount of capital, he is still only able to attempt maybe 10 percent of the tota l requirement.

The sad tact remains that at this point in time, and I know he would freely admit this, that he is in tact in violatio n of the Fire Code . It you want to take the Fire Code as it is written today and say that it we applied this rigidly right across the board, then -(Interjection)- Yes, you would close up most of the buildings operated by the province. Therefore, the Minister is ofcourseawareofthis, that he is presently in violation of the new code .

And I simply make this point which I made earlier , that if he were so unfortunate, as was the case when I was the MinistE!r, to be hit by a case of arson, under the right circum stances , and people die, then he will be tagged a.s well with being responsible tor not complying with the Fire Code because he was not meeting certai requirements ott he Fire Code and will be condemned for it. That is a risk that he runs , that I ran , and that any other Min iter responsible tor that portfolio will run. Can the Minister indicate what he intends to do in succeed ing years?

Is he going togo atthe rate of $5 million a year, or is this the main priority now and then once this is met-1 doubt seriously myself whether the department can spend that $5 million in the next fiscal year. I would suspect it's ~oing to take a couple of years to implement, but does theM inister have any projections fo r the future m terms of what he intends to do after this? Is he going the maintain a $5 million expenditure each year or is he going to maybe do a l1asser amount in succeeding years? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chai rman , I think what the ded ication of the $5 million really means is that certainly there was an option open to me and to the new government, and I welcome the opportunity of making this very clear and I regret that initially, perhaps through my own inadvertent remarks that I might have made, I suggested of course a solution to this . And that is revising the Manitoba Fire Codes Law and making it less stringent.

The option that we have chosen is to run the risk, as the Honourable Member for Elmwood correctly points out, of in fact being in violation of the tire code during that time period that we are attempting to comply with it within our fiscal capacity. I want to make it very clear we are not tampering, or changing, or suggesting , or putting pressure on the Fire Commissioner 's office to in any way modify or reduce the standards set by the legislation that was passed by the previous administratio .

But what we are doing, and we are getting the co-operation of the Fire Commissioner 's office, that only so much can be done under reasonable circumstances, and weare working in close co-op1:Jration with the Fire Commissioner's office, and the staff of the Department of Public Works to achieve these changes. Now I can't comment further on that. The member 's remarks are taken in the manner in which they're given. He's quite right that if an unfortunate situation st10uld occur, that I may well be in the same position that he was in last summer .

Alii can say is that within the physical means of the department, and I believe even during a period of restraint, the dedication of $5 million is substantial and not to be slighted in any way as our dedication to trying to bring government buildings and institutions into compliance with the Fire Com missioner 's recommen1jations.

We make no apologies tor it, we have priorized the area that we're going to place those dollars into , namely into those places , those institutions that house unfortunate people that are either bed-ridden or, in forced inhousement such as Headingley, or mentally deficient, that they rec13ive our first priority. Now that means a lot of other buildings, including I might say, this building, this building which is in contravention of the Fire Codes Commission .

Does the committee suggest that we should adjourn tor the next nine years and resume this session ten years hence when I get this building under compliance with the Fire Commissioner 's Code? That would make it much easier for me to fulfill the prediction that , of course, this present Conservative government is going to be in office for sixteen years . 1878

Monday, May 8, 1978 MR. DOERN: If there's no election . MR. ENNS: Because if I don't see you for another ten years. MR. DOERN : Providing there 's no election. MR. ENNS: If I don 't see you for another ten years to resume discuss ion in this building then it won't be that hard, but you can go from the ridiculous to the sublime, but the seriousness of this is that we are putting $5 million into a program to try to meet the Fire Commissioner's . . . MR. DOERN: I have two more questions before I yield the floor to my colleague here.

We spent apparently some $7 million on maintenance at the Portage Home during our administration, $7 million on maintenance and I don 't have a figure on the amount of money that was spent on fire code up-grading , new code or old code . I just wonder if the Minister happened to have a figure of how many hundreds of thousands , or millions , were spent on upgrading in regard to fire prevention, safety , etc. MR. ENNS: I'll have to take that question as notice , Mr. Chair man. MR.

DOERN: A final question at this point is it's important that even with that $5 mill ion expenditure that the re not be a reduction in staff vis-a-vis fire protection. I'm just wonder ing if the Minister is aware of whether or not the staff ing levels will be maintained in relat ion to fire safety orwhetherthere will be any reduction because of his expenditure? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm advised insofar as the Department of Public Works responsibility , our staffing will be maintained at present and existing levels.

The greater question of staffing would have to be asked of the Minister directly responsible , the Minister of Health. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . When we began the Estimates for this particular department, opposition members were asking about the matter of capital carry-over and Minister did give an indication that when we reached this item he might be in a position to enlighten us on the amount of capital carry-over and how much extra capital was going to be spent this year that does not appear under this particular appropriation.

Can the Minister now tell us how much is going to be spent under this heading that does not appear in the Estimates Book? MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I believe I indicated these figures to the Honourable Member for St. Johns in an earlier session of the committee when I, in my usual gracious manner, was allowing a great deal of latitude in terms of questioning even though the question should be asked at this particular point in time, which I now acknowledge the Member for St. Vital asking at the appropriate time. But. . . MR. WALDING: So, what's the answer? MR.

ENNS: The total amount of monies that have been allocated in the carry-over capital is $4,801,314.79, and I also indicated at that time that there is a further submission currently before Management Committee of Cabinet for approval of a further amount of $941,000 and that comprises the total of $5,742,000 that there is an intention to spend in addition to the Estimates from capital carry-over. MR. WALDING: Mr. Cha irman, the $4.8 million that the Minister mentioned, is that spending authority or is that borrowing authority , or is that money that theM inister intends to spend or both. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm saying this is money that has been raised under various loan acts dating back from 1973. In 1973 the Loan Act provided us with some $15 in 1974some $410thousand; in 1975$102 thousand; in 1976$1,233,000,000 and in 1977$3,039 carry-over capital, and this figure comprises the total of $5,700,000 of carry-over capital of which at the moment, $4.8 million is committed to specific projects . Am I right gentlemen? To specific projects of the nature which I spelled out in my initial remarks, Stedman School Berens River, you know , the different capital projects I mentioned in my opening remarks .

There's a further submission of 941 that is before Management Committee at this time. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, is any of that $4.8 million scheduled to be spent under 6.(

a) Fire Code Upgrading. 1879

Monday, May 8, 1978 MR. ENNS: No. MR. WALDING: Can I then go on to the matterofthePortage Home, Mr. Chairman, and raisefirstof all the matter of the three-quarters of a million dollars for the renovation of East Grove. That was the figure that was given to our Caucus members when we paid a visit to the school earlier this year. We were taken on a tour of the premises and shown East Grove . l presume that the Minister also has been out there and has seen what East Grove is, and what the damage done by the fire is, however, maybe some of his colleagues may not be aware of East Grove and the fire that was there.

What we're talking about there is a room that's perhaps half as long as this, maybe a shade wider and about as high, a very sturdily built structure , but we're talking about one room. The interior is quite badly damaged by fire particularly at one end of it, but the room itself is structurally sound. Is the Minister satisfied that three quarters of a mill ion dollars is a proper amount of money to spend to renovate one room? I understand that there were approximately a dozen boys resident within that room.

The room is big enough to acco mm odate, at a guess maybe double that number but it's not presently in use, of course. For a sum that would purchase maybe ten or fifteen subu rban homes in the Winnipeg area, does the Minister consider that to be a reasonable amount to refurbish one room at the Port age Home? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not satisfied that that is in the total picture perhaps the most appropriate way of spendi ng those moneys, but I am satisfied that there is no immediate suitable alternative, partly by the pressures placed on us by the Fire Commissioner's office, partly by the time lag that it takes to develop these- you know the Honourable Member for St. Vital can say to me, fine, three quarters of a million dollars will provide ten or fifteen residential homes, and I think I try to recognize that that indeed is the route that I think we ought to be going .

But, firstly, I'm not the Minister of Health, I'm not the Minister charged with that immediate responsibil ity. I don't mean to say this in any way of criticism of my colleague the Minister of Health. I'm saying as indeed the former administration experie1nced , one does not simply create these homes overnight. It creates staffing problems , it creates community acceptance of these homes and members of this committee know whereof I speak, it takes a great deal of effort to bring about this depopulation, this de institutionalizing of this kind of facility .

The Department of Public Works is responding in the way that it has been asked to n3spond by the client department , in this case the Department of Health. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Member for St. Vita l. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I realize that we have an overlap here of two different departments , and I will tell the Minister that when I went out there and received this tour of the whole complex and saw East Grove , I didn 't think it was worth putting $750,000 to renovate that room.

The Minister is probably aware that th,e staff up there consider that an appropriate use for East Grovewould be for a storage area, that the room could be cleaned up and cleared away and put into use as a storage area, for which there is need, at a far less amount than three-quarters of a million dollars. It brings up the much wider question of the governme nt's policy of the Portage School.

Now, the Minister of Public Works may not have the main responsibil ity or authority in that area, but as a member of Cabinet he shares the responsibility for the government's policy in deciding on the future of the whole Portage School.

The Minister is probably aware that at one time that that complex housed up to 1,350 residents , that that is a number that has been slowly decreas ing, partly because of opening community residences and it's now down in the region of 900 residents with a staff of about 700 people I am told ; that the buildings vary anywhere from five years old to maybe 50 years old; that the fire problems in the oldest parts of the complex are very severe when you have no means of access to the second or third floor but a very narrow stairway, and that the residents up there who can only be moved out in the event of a fire, by actually picking up the re mattresses and trying to manoeuvre them dow a very narrow stairway, it's an instance of what the staff there are up against.

There seems to be a very major policy area to be decided upon by the government whether they are to go the whole route of implementing the Fire Commissio ner's Report to keep the complex where it is and in use as it presently is, foreseeing a population of 900 residents or even more, or whether there is on the other hand going to be an attempt to gradually bring down that 900 figure in which case perhaps less space will be needed and perhap s less buildings will be needed.

Maybe the Minister can tell us what the government's policy is in this regard, whether it in fact wants to keep one majo r provincial institution in a location 65 miles from where most of the relatives and parents of the inmates are, whether he sees some diversification of the facilities there into two or three or more smaller institutions , but still being institutions , because quite obviously, particularly if you have read the report that the staff prepared back in November , that many of the residents simply will never go into community residences, there are only certain categories of residents that can do.

So, depending on the policy that the government decides on will have a very major effect as to the route that involves this Minister in upgrading these buildings or not upgrading them because they simply won't be used in the future, or demolished . Now, maybe the Minister can tell us the government's policy or maybe they haven't got one yet? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I can simply say that I appreciate the honourable members comments. The remarks were as pertinent 7 years ago or 6 or 5 or 4 or 3 years ago, the 8 years that he 1880

Monday, May 8, 1978 was a member of government, that of course action could have been taken in this instance, but I don't say that in a provocative way. I say we regrettably have had focus directed towards this particular institution as a result of an unfortunate incident this last summer. The Department of Public Works, let me make it very clear , is not the principal department in setting the policy with this respect, as the member acknowledges and appieciates . We are there to attempt to accommodate interim responses.

Let me put it on the record that the dollars referred to is not just the refurbishing of this room thatthe honourable member described graphically as being half the size of this building, it includes the complex . It is an addition to the actual room that's there. Mr. Chairman, I can't really say much more , other than say that the Department of Public Works, as the former Minister of Public Works is so much aware of, you know, we're always the department that is there to put out the fire kind of thing , and we are literally now responding to some immediate and urgent pressures.

We have the responsibility of providing a facility, not necessarily the facility that the people that are running the institution, the professional people there would say is ideal, but to do anything we have to provide a facility where we can house inmates , or residences, pardon me, I shouldn't use that term , residences of the school , while other things are happening.

I can indicate to the honourable member that I for one have no difficulty in supporting his point of view that if that downward trend in terms of that population should continue, that efforts shall be and ought to be made and will be made into providing the community residential facilities that the member speaks of. while the $750,000 may appear to be, you know, a large sum of money being spent for facilities that may be of an interim nature, I'm faced with the same responsibilities that the former Minister was faced with , that is namely to do something .

I have been advised by the Department of Health and by my Department of Public Workds people that this is what I can do and ought to be doing.l don't hold that up as a panacea fo r the problem , resolving the problem, not for one moment, but you know we have to do things a step at a time , and I suggest that this is the step that we are trying to take with respect to the Portage Home . MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr. Chairman , I did hear the Minister to say that he hopes that the trend in reducing the number of residents will continue.

I wonder if he could be a little more specific as to the government's policy on this , first of all whether or not there has been a definite policy set by the government as to the future of the Portage School. Do they in fact continue to ... MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order. The honourable member who is a veteran of the House and an estimable chairman of many committees of this type, knows that we are hereto discuss the Estimates before us and not to deliberate on potential or future policy of the government.

When policy is to be changed or policy directions, new policy directions are to be taken , they will be duly and properly announced in the House for the benefit of all Members of the House , not just to the private exclusion of the few members around this committee room . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital on the point of order . MR. WALDING: No, I was about to continue, Mr. Chairman .

I will grant that much of what the Minister says, that he is the Minister of Public Works and that we are on the matter having to do with fire code , but I would remind him , as I mentioned before, that the whole future of the Portage School does have a bearing on the matter of fire code upgrading that we have before us. Obviously if, for example one-third of the buildings at Portage were not to be used next year because of a diminution in the number of residents there , then there would seem to be no point in putting sprinklers or smoke alarms or anything else in there .

What I am trying to get at from the Minister is first of all whether the government has a policy on the future of the Portage School , and if so, what is it? Will they see an indefinite future for the buildings at Portage? Are they going to be phased out gradually? And if that is the case, is the Minister wasting money by pouring some of this capital into buildings that will not be used? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we are attempting to respond to the requests of the client department , in this case being the Department of Health and Social Services.

Their recommendation to us, obviously based on the fact that for some period of time, there will be a populat ion at the school, hopefully diminishing, because the Minister of Health has also indicated, as I've indicated, support for and belief in the movement towards community residence for these people that are currently housed at an institution such as Portage . Based on their recommendations to us we have the dual responsibility of what the Member for Elmwood said, like today, never mind tomorrow, I'm responsible for whoever is housed in that institution , and we have to respond to it. MR.

WALDING: Can I ask theM inister what responsibility the Department of Public Works has for either acquiring or running any new community residences that might be set up through the Portage School? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not capable of answering that kind of a question or those kinds of questions . I think the member recognizes that those questions have to be directed towards the responsible Minister. MR. DO ERN: Mr. Chairman, I'm asking the Minister if he, as the Minister of Public Works, has any 1881

Monday, May 8, 1978 responsibility towards acquiring or setting up community residences? MR. ENNS: No. We will assume responsibiltity when we get a request from the appropriate department to acquire a building, to manage the building, or if need be build one, but that's where our responsibility begins not prior to that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Are you completed? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: No, I had a couple of more questions .

Is the Minister presently in receipt of any requests for setting up or obtaining housing for the use of community residences? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, can I then ask the Minister if the government has any policy regarding the future of the Portage School? MR. ENNS: I am sorry I didn't get the ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Member for St. Vital please repeat the his question. MR. WALDING: I would like to ask the Minister if the government has any policy regarding the future of Portage School? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, we have a great deal of policy regarding the future of the Portage School and we will tell you at the approp riate time. MR. CHAIRMAN: MThe Honourable eMember for Rhineland . MR. BROWN: Well, thank you , Mr. Chairman. I was a little disappointed . I thoughtthattheMember for St. Vital was going to ask that East Grove be reinstituted to the level that it was before , but he did not do this .

But , I just was at a meeting very recently with the CAMR , and they certainly are not recommending any more money being spent on East Grove and as already was mentioned previously , they are recommending de-institutionalizing rather than institutionalizing.

And, of course, this would change the Portage Home situation drastically , and I know that many meetings have been going on in the recent weeks with the CAMR , with the Minister of Health, and I don't know if the Minister of Public Works attended these, but they are trying to arrive at some possible solution as far as the Portage Home is concerned, which would possibly be of benefit to all concerned without spending too much money on needless renovations . · These were my comments . I thought the member was going to ask that East Grove be instituted to its previous level. MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister of Public Works .

MR. ENNS: Thank you , the Honourable Member Rhineland, for your comments. MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Thank you , the Honourable Member for Rhineland, ffor your comments . Mr. Chairman, both the Min ister and I are claiming the Member for Rhineland at the moment. I had a couple of specifics yet under this particular item, but I wanted to make this one point. Last August , the First Minister when he was leader of the offic ial opposition attacked our administration MR. ENNS: Fine fellow , hell of a fine fellow. I MR.

DO ERN: ... regarding the Portage School and regarding fire safety, and said that we couldn't find the few thousand dollars it would take to lessen the danger to the lives of persons who are unable to fend for themselves and so on and so on. I simply make this point, that he talked then of a few thousand dollars, and today we're getting the actual figures out, and the figures appear to be of the following order , $750,000 for the specific building that burned in the fire for one room, in that building that burned in the fire , ~)750,000.00 . According to Dr. Lowther , $4 million to $6 million to do Portage .

Now, I would like to get an explanation there of how it is that the Director of the school claims a figure of $4 million to $6 million for the Manitoba Home at Portage, and yet the present Minister gives us a figure of probably anywhere from $300,000 to $1 million , if I could sort of assume that he's given us a 1882

Monday, May 8, 1978 number of institutions and about a quarter or so of them would be allocated to Portage. He's obviously giving us a figure of around a million. If Dr. Lowther is talk ing $4 million to $6 million, and then the Min ister's giving us a complete figure of what it would cost of $40, $50, $60 million to do the Provincial Buildings. Now, I say that when we look back into August of 1977, the First Minister, Mr.

Lyon, at that time was talking of a few thousand dollars, when in fact, he wasn't aware of the fact that it would cost mill ions of dollars to bring provincial institutions up, and that even given a will and a desire and fiscal responsibility or not , it would still take a number of years to implement that program . If I take the present Minister at his word , it sounds as if it's going to take about $5 million a year for a 10-year period to bring everyth ing up to scratch . So, I'd simply point out that the Honourable Sterling Lyon at that point in time did not know what he was talking about.

He was not aware of what a costly and time consuming job this would be. It wasn't a case of a few thousand dollars. I then ask the Minister if he can reconcile Dr. Lowther 's figures which he gave to the Member for St. Vital and myself- he talked about architectural estimates of $4 million to $6 million for Portage- if he can reconcile that with his own figures of probably about a million dollars to put it up to scratch? MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister of Publ ic Works . MR.

ENNS: Well I think the difference probably indicates that the government doesn't foresee the necessity or the desirability of rebuilding the Portage Institute as such to house the 1,000 or 1,200 patients in a fully rebui lt build ing that will meet comp liance of all health and fire code recommendations . I th ink that's probably the difference in the figures right there without announcing policy, that the differen ce is that we are doing what we have to do, foreseeing the day thatthe desired results that the Member for Rhineland spoke about , the Member forS t. Vita l spoke about, will in effect take place.

We'll perhaps look at Portage as a temporary home for perhaps 400 or 500 patients, rather than the 1,000 that are presently there , as a clearing house , while the people can be placed into what the mental health people are asking us to do, you know , into residential homes.

I can foresee the continued need for a central facility for patients being placed prior to their being quartered or put into residences after staff has had some experience as to terms of their disability , terms of their capability and where they can be fitted into with different groups, smaller groups of 12 or 14, or 15 people which can bring about a compatible situation in these residential homes. But, I can always foresee the need for a central institution where this process takes place.

Now I would say, and I'm not, you know . .. what the hell am I talking here as Minister of Public Works as though I'm a child psychologist or a doctor , or something like that , or replacing Dr. Lowther? I don't know what I'm talking about but I can see the need for some facility where somebody , professionals in the field, make these determinations. So, when Dr. Lowther says it takes $5 million or $6 million to refurbish the whole facility as is, I don't dispute that figure, but he has not forecast and Dr. Lowther does not make government policy.

In fact, I think what our figure forecasts , is tacit recognition of the direction that the people intimately and directly concerned , including the parents and the professionals who want to see us going. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 6.(a)-pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , I have a couple more questions here and then after that I would suggest to the Committee , and we can wait until that point in time , but I would suggest to the Committee that we conclude after a few more questions, because I can assure you there are a couple more hours , which I'm sure we can easily finish tomorrow , on the capital. There are quite a few projects I'd like to go over in detail , so I'd like to just get some answers to these questions and then I intend to move that the committee rise.

In regard to the Fire Code upgrading, in regard to The Pas Jail, there were some tremendous speeches made in Cabinet about moving on The Pas jail, that were made by the former Minister of Labour . He had a speech which characterizes the charred bodies speech, about the dangers of that particular institution and so on, and I was just wondering if the Minister had any comment about the existing The Pas jail in terms of when we might anticipate ... -(Interjection)- The old Minister of Labour, not the new Minister of Labour .

The Pas jail is really a fire-trap in the classical sense, an absolute fire-trap, one of the worst in the Province of Manitoba, and I'm just wondering if theM inister can indicate when there might be some action on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I was not privy to those torrent days of the previous Cabinet meetings, when fiery speeches were being made with respect to the facility at The Pas.

Alii can answer to the honourable member is that again, the Department of Public Works responds to the requests and direction of its client departments, in this case, again it's perhaps a combination of the Attorney General's office with respect to the Court House at The Pas which is part of the complex, and the Minister responsible for Corrections. MR. DOERN: Well, doesn't the Minister receive copies of the Fire Commissioner's reports, and in so reading them and being responsible for them, he has to act on those reports. 1883

Monday, May 8, 1978 MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , I can't say that I've been a recipient of a report since my term of office. I undoubtedly expect that some have come in the last little while , but my staff advise me that I haven't had one during my term of office . That's not to deny the general descr iption and the problems that we have in the situation .

We also are operating under licence, if you will , under acknowledgment of temporary status, with the temporary facilit ies that were moved in some time ago, and until the question is resolved by the appropriate departments, the Department of Public Works is not in the power to make policy in this direction . We have, as the honourable member is aware of, a tender that's been received and acted upon and we're ready to build . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, a final question on this

section . On the environmental lab, is the Minister aware of the fact that he is in violation of the fire code or he has a situat ion which is not a very desirable situation, which has been going on fo r years, probably prior to our administration, through our administration , and now into the present , whereby there is a lab on the top floor of the Norquay Building where therEJ are materials which are not necessarily desirable to be close proximity to people in an office in complex, and does he plan to take any action to get that lab out?

The most intelligent action being to commence completion of the environmental lab. What is he going to do about the lab in the Norquay Building? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, upon completion of the new environmental lab we expect to remedy that problem . MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman , I'm prepared to pass 6.(

a) and then I intend to move that the committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: . Item 6.(a)-p ass MR. DOERN: Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the will of the committee to rise? MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , if I could just make a comment , I assure the committee I have at least two hours more of questioning , so I therefore recommend that we fin ish tomorrow night, rather than go past midnight. So, I move that committee rise. MOTION presented and lost. MR. CHAIRMAN : ltt~m 6.(b). MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman , could we have a recorded vote. I'd like to know what the vote is.

A COUNTED VOTE vvas taken , the results being as follows : Yeas 2, Nays 7. MR. CHAIRMAN: Very well. Item 6.(b)-pass ... MR. DO ERN: All right, Mr. Chairman , if you want two hours or more of debate, I'm prepared to dig in and keep going , so you better sit tight. I'm not joking . MR. CHAIRMAN: ltEJm 6.(b)-pass ... MR. DOERN: Okay , let's start with 6.(b), Mr. Chairman. A MEMBER: We have passed it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: There are about 10 buildings that I would like to go through very carefully and let's start at the beginning. Okay , the Environmental Lab.

Can the Min ister bring us up to date on where the Lab is in terms of construction or in terms of what his plans are to complete the Lab? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , further contracts have been awarded . .. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order . Mr. Chairman , I bring to your notice that there is not a quorum present in the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ei!~ht. There 's a qorum, can't you count? MR. DOERN: We need 10. 1884

Monday, May 8, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: That 's a quorum ; it's that metric that gets you every time, you know. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , I believe that according to the rules, you are required to note those members present. MR. CHAIRMAN: That is correct. MR. WALDING : ... and recess, retire, rise, whatever. MR. ENNS: We will have a quorum count by the Clerk , please. MR. CLERK: Eight. MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare there is no quorum. Committee rise. SUPPLY- EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: I would direct the honourable members to page 28, Department of Education , Resolution 48, Clause 6.

Universities Grants Commission . 6.-pass- the Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: I would ask the Honourable Minister if he could, for my own edification, explain exactly how the funding to the Inter-Universities North Program comes about under this specific section? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman , to the Member for Churchill, the government, as I am sure he now understands, gives the Univers ities Grants Commiss ion a sum of money each year to operate the Universities and the programs that they in turn operate , and Inter-Universities North is one of those programs .

MR. COWAN: I note in the report of the Universities Grants Commission that it lists several other programs for the last year along with I nter-U niversites North and I am wondering if theM inister could inform us as to what funds those programs are gett ing for this upcoming year? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman , that is at the discretion of the Universities Grants Commiss ion. I suppose I could enquire from the Commission and get that information for the Member, but that is certainly at the discretion of the Universities Grants Commission . MR.

COWAN: Yes, I would appreciate if the Minister would get that information for me. Can he tell me at this time, we know that the funding for Inter-Universities North for this year has been cut, can he inform me if any of the other programs under that Section, and I am looking for it right at the moment here, have been cut also? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman , it is my understanding that the Universities Grants Commission has cut several of the programs in order to meet their budget requirements . MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Could the Honourable Minister then inform me as to the substance or the nature of those cuts? MR. COSENS: Once again , Mr. Chairman, that would have to be in the information that I would get from the Universities Grants Commission as to what action they took in that regard. As I mentioned before that is completely within their discretion . They receive a sum of money, they make those particular decisions. MR. COWAN: Well , I would hope that the Minister would try to clarify those questions for me. What I am attempting to do in this case, Mr.

Chairman, is to determine as to whether or not the Inter Universities North Program has been singled out byway of reduced funding and without knowing the funding that was allocated to the other support programs it comes under in the Budget , the Computer Network and the Unicome , without knowing what funding they got, it would be hard for me to determine as to whether this one particular cutback is a specific singling out of a northern program, or whether it is a general cutback, but I note that the Universities Grants Commission got an increase of three percent in funding for this year over the previous year .

And yet this Program in the beginning was initially cut back , entirely eliminated . I quote from a News Service release dated March 1Oth, the last sentence says, "Several small programs operated through or by the Commission including the Inter-Universities North Program have been eliminated." And then I see on a News 1885

Monday, May 8, 1978 Service dated March :31 st, that the Program would be limited , but that it would continue to some extent. I am wondering if the Minister could explain the obvious contradiction or what happened in the meantime to makH that Program continue? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman, to the Member for Churchill , an attempt to clarify the situation in this regard- on making enquiries to the Grants Commission I found out that originally in their cuts in their particular budget, the Inter-Universities North Program had been cut with the understanding that the Universities through their extension services would provide university courses in the north and in the rural areas as they have been accustomed to do to some extent.

However in view of the budget received by the Universites it was their decision not to extend their Extension Program and as a result the Universities Grants Commission reconsidered, rather than seeing the delivery of courses to the north cut off completely , and did in turn find some moneys for that particular Program. MR. COWAN: Are these Extension Services that the Minister speaks of now, were they programs that were funded last year that were cut off this year, or were they new progr ams that were to be begun under his administration? I am not quite clear, Mr.

Chairman , on the sort of thing that the Member for Churchill is referring to. I wonder if he could be more specific . MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you , Mr. Chairman . I will try to be more specif ic. I am notquiteclearmyself so we may muddle through this , but I am sure we will get to the bottom of it soon enough .

Those Programs that the Minister mentioned by way of Extension Programs going into the north to allow northerners to take advantage of the Univers ity system , which is by far and large based in the south, were those Programs ongoing programs for a number of years now, or where they new Programs that were to be initiated under the Minister 's direction as part of the new administration? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman , my understanding that Programs have been carried out through the Extension Service of the University for some years, so I suppose by the definit ion of the Member for Churchill , these would be ongoing Programs in that each year they deliver so many courses in the rural parts of the province . MR. COWAN: Yes, t ank you, Mr. Chairman . The Minister will have to excuse me because while he was going through that one part of his statment before I was trying to compile my notes here and I might have misunders tood him , I would just like to check .

Did he say that those Extension Programs were being cancelled for this year? MR. COSENS: No, Mr. Chairman, I did not say they are being cancelled.lt is quite possible they will be limited, that is at the discretion of the Universities once again, how many courses they deliver and in what location they deliver these courses . MR. COWAN: Could theM in ister then undertake to find out the limitations , if there are any, of these courses going up into the north this year under his adminstra tion as compared with the course that went up in previous y«3ars? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman, that might be somewhat difficult as once again that is at the discretion of the unive rsities and whether they , at this point , have determined the number of courses / and the locations, I would find that rather difficult to determine at this point myself whether they have that determination macje. I know it depends on the demand that they receive, the number of potential students in a particular area as to the courses that they offer throughout the province. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you , Mr. Chairman.

I'm somewhat concerned here that we can't get this specific information and I'm concerned because of what has happened to educational opportunities in the north since your administration , your government took office . I'm concerned because first we saw Focus being totally eliminated, which was an educa tio nal program , experimental in nature for the most part but serving some needs in northern communities, and we saw the Native Extension Services also eliminatl3d under your administ ration.

And we saw an attempt to eliminate the Inter Universities North Program and I'm wonder ing if the Minister could take time out for just a philosophical statement of some sort because I fin d these specific eliminations to be contradictory to his professed concerns for the needs of northerns and I'd like him to expla in how he, in his own mind , reconciles the fact that they are cutting out, hack ing away some of what some of us consider to be the better educational programs for the north and yet, at the same time, defining a need, accepting a need and declaring tha t they intend to fill that need. MR.

COSENS: Mr . Chairman , once again I think the Member for Churchill has to realize the rather unique situation of the universities as opposed to the government. They operate much differently than any other particular branch or part of our province in that they are at arms length from the governmen t in thei r operation .

I can tell him personally if he wants to talk about philosophy, that I do consider that it's essential that university courses be offered in the north; I'm concerned that teachers in the north have that opportunity to take university courses during the winter in particular when they don't have an opportunity to get out to take those courses and I'm concerned that those 1886

Monday, May 8, 1978 courses would be available to them . But the amount of courses that are offered, the type of courses that are offered, are at the discretion of the Universities Grants Commission and the universities. MR. COWAN: Yes, is the Honourable Minister then saying that he has no influence whatsoever over the internal allocations of this funding to the Universities Grants Commission? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman , I suppose the government has no influence other than the amount of money that it gives to the Universities Grants Commission which, I suppose, in some way has some effect on the programs at the universities . MR. COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Chairman .

Would the Minister have us believe then that his administration coming in in late October, one of the first actions they do is to eliminate the Focus Program in the north, an educational northern program; one of the next actions that takes place is elimination of Native Extension Services, another educational northern program and that operating in a vacuum on the side, the Universities Grants Commission at the same time decides on their own after 6, 7, 8, 9 years of existence that they are going to cut out the Inter-Universities North Program . He's telling me that this is just a coincidence? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm telling the Member for Churchill that the decisions made as to university programs and so on are made by the Universities Grants Commission. MR. COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Chairman, and the Minister is telling me- I would just like him to reaffirm that he is telling me that the Universities Grants Commission took the action of eliminating the Inter-Universities North Program on their own without any mandate or any direction from the government. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I would state that the answer to the Member for Churchill is emphatically yes. MR.

COWAN: Then can the Minister stand up also and tell me that the reinstatement, partial or limited as it may be, of the Inter-Universities North Program was also taken without any direction from himself or any of his other Ministers or his government? MR. COSENS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think I attempted to clarify that matter earlier .

On inquiry to the Grants Commission as to what had happened there , I was told that they had originally planned that that type of course delivery would be handled through the Extension Services and when they found out that that was not going to be possible, then they did consider an alternative and I believe it's some $120,000 that they found that could be used for this purpose in the year coming. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman .

I would just like at this point read a very short statement from the Thompson Citizen dated March 27th, Monday, in regard to the Inter-Universities North Program and it is entitled "Inter-Universities North to Continue on Limited Basis." The last paragraph goes on to say, "Northern Affairs Minister, Ken MacMaster, told the Citizen on Thursday that he had not been satisfied with earlier statements that despite the cutoff of IUN funds, the three universities involved in the program could continue to offer courses individually in the north .

He said that he and the Education Minister met with the Grants Commission during the past week and reached an agreement on the continuation of the Inter-Universities North Program next year." Now, is the Honourable Minister telling me that this did not happen? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, there was no meeting between the Minister of Northern Affairs and myself with the Grants Commission.

I , at different times, have been in contact with the Grants Commission on matters that affect the university where the Grants Commission feels it necessary to come in contact with the government but certainly no meeting in that regard. MR. COWAN: Well, now I'm confused . Now I'm confused because I've got this statement here from the -(Interjection)- It's a statement from the Minister of Northern Affairs, Mr.

Ken MacMaster, who told the Citizen, now perhaps the paper is incorrectly quoting him but it seems such a substantial statement, and coming in the wake of all the controversy and the protests about Inter-Universities North, and coupled with the fact that when we had this program discontinued, eliminated on March 1Oth, there was quite an uproar from the north . There was protests from almost every community that had been serviced by Inter-Universities North . There was protests in this House as to the elimination and cutbacks in the program . It became, so to speak, a hot potato in the hands of the new government.

On March 23rd or 22nd, I am not sure of the exact date, a full week before this Information News Service release stated that the program was going to continue on a limited basis, we also have in the Thompson Citizen an

article concerning Inter-Universities North. I'll read just a the first couple of paragraphs of that if I can, Mr. Chairman. It says, "A phone interview with Churchill MP, Cecil Smith, last night offered hope that the IUN Program would be continued. Smith commented that he was very upset when he heard that the IUN might be discontinued." Just as the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs was very upset, just as I am sure the Minister of Education was upset, I know I was upset, my colleagues in the north were upset , and a good three-quarters of 1887

Monday, May 8, 1978 the north was upset. Mr. Smith con tinued . He said it was one of the better programs in the north, and I am sure that all those that I mentione cj in the previous sentence agree with that also, that it was one of the better programs in the north . Smith said that he had been been in constant contac t with the Provincial Cabinet .an~ has been assured that the IUN Prog ram will be retained on the basis of need, that is, of course, 1t Will ~ot be offered for two people .

He went on to say that the government is looking for money to put mto thc3 program and an announcement will be made within a week's time. The Northern Affairs Minister Ken MacMaster could not be reached for comment. Now, again we coulcj question the validity of a news

article in a written press as saying perhaps the reporter had misinterpreted what the Member of Parliament said, but thi s is taken directly from a phone interview, which I did not have the opportunity to hear, but which many of my constituents and many of my friends in the north , had an opportunity to hear, and they have assured me that it is substantially correct.

So Now we have a non-political organization , the Universities Grants Commission , eliminating a program on a non-political basis, on their own deciding to obviousl y follow the example of the government and hack away at some of our best northern educational programs, and we are told that they are doing on their own without any sort of direction, without any sort of interference from the politicians and then .. . MR. MCKENZIE: How can you speak for Canada , you were only down here two weeks before the .. election? MR. COWAN: I wouhj be perfectly willing to sit, Mr.

Chairman , and let the Member for Roblin have the floor and I would be perfectly wil ling to sit and listen to him commen t on where I came from and when . MR. MCKENZIE: I'd sure like to know how you can be an expert , you only were here two weeks before the election . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Would the Honourable Membe r for Churchill continue . MR. COWAN: I would be pleased to continue , Mr. Chairman , if you could quiet down the Member for Roblin so that I could continue in some manner of peace on this side of the House.

I would ask the Mi ister then to explai n why a non-pol itical issue, why the Un iversities Grants Commission that operates outside of the realm of partisan polit ics, outside of the realm of this government , would supply information to the Member of Parliament , Cecil Smith, in regard to the continuation of the ln ~ er-Universities North Program . MR. COSENS: Mr. C airman , in regard to this particular matter , I am informed that Mr.

Cecil Smith at no time was in contact with the Universities Grants Comm ission so if, in fact, he received the particular information that the Member for Churchill ment ions, perhaps he received it from the Minister of Northern Affairs who I understand that he confers with a great deal. They certainly have mutual concerns . MR. CHAIRMAN: Th,e Honourable Member for Burrows on a point of order . MR. HANUSCHAK: I'm just rising on a point of order .

It's not up to me to indicate to you how to run the affairs of this committee but I do have the distinct imp ression that the Honourable Member for Roblin has a contribution which he wishes to make to this debate . MR. CHAIRMAN: Clause 68- pass - the Hono urable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you , Mr. Chairman and thank you Member for Burrows . We'll continue on with this . I'm somewhat concerned that either a lot of misinfo rmation is being put forth before the public or a lot of people are speaking out of hand.

I am wo ndering just who gave the indication to the politician , either the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs or to Cec il Smith , the indication that Inter-Universities Nortl1 Program would be continued on a limited basis? Their information seems to be substantially correct so we can rule out that they are just making things up out of their own mind and presenting it to the public as fact. The info rmation does seem to be essentially correct , therefore , they must have a source and I'm wondering who that source would be. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman , to the Member for Churchill , I can assure him that Mr.

Smith was not in contact with me and I understand he was not in contact with the Universities Grants Commission so I would speculate just as much as the Member for Churchill as to where he might get his information . MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairman , I am trying awfully hard not to speculate but I am trying to pin down because I think that thElre is an issue at hand here which is important to the continuation of the Inter- 1888

Monday, May 8, 1978 Universities North Program. If the Inter-Universities North Program has become a political football then it's continuation is not on the basis of need or on the basis of the service that it gives but it8s continuation is on the basis of fulfilling some political need at a specific time.

Now, as much as I want to see the program continue, I want to see the program continue because it is a good program and I want the Minister's assurances that the program is continuing on that basis because it is a program that is serving a need and it is a program that is filling a vacuum of educational, university opportunities for northerners. I'd like his assurance at this time on that if I could. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman, I have no hesitation in telling the Member for Churchill that should a situation arise next year where the Universities Grants Commission and the universities decide that they do not have the funds to continue this program, that the province in fact will attempt to continue the program so that these courses are delivered in the north.l would hopethatthat type of guarantee would, to some extent, satisfy the concerns of the Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: I'm to understand from the Honourable Minister then that if the Universities Grants Commission should independently decide that for the next year, or within the next year, that they would not fund the Inter-Universities North Program, that the province would step in and fund those programs on an ongoing basis. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman , I think I said words to that extent, yes, that if the Universities Grants Commission made the decision- and they have every right to make that decision- that they were not going to fund such programs then I have given the Member for Churchill the guarantee that it then would become the obligation of the province to see that such courses were delivered in the north. MR.

COWAN: Then I would ask theMinisterthat if he would be willing to continue those programs, would he be willing to continue them on the basis of last year's allocations which was in the neighbourhood of $270,000 or this year's funding which is in the neighbourhood of $120,000- he can correct me if my figures are wrong. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, we will certainly review that particular situation and take a very careful look at the demand and the need in the northern communities for this type of university course and the funding I would then hope would come close to meeting that particular need. MR.

COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Well the need has been apparent for some time now and has been filled for some time now . l don't think that the Minister- and I'm not telling him how to do his job- but I would think that the obvious procedure for him would be to look at the past needs and look at the population base which is remaining substantially the same if not somewhat lower and to say that those programs should continue on the basis of the previous year which was a higher funding.

I would ask him for a commitment to that particular aspect, that he will continue the programs on the basis of the $270,000, $300,000 funding for one year. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, at this time I can't make a definitive commitment a year from now. I think I've given the Member for Churchill the commitment that we will certainly see that courses are delivered in the north . The extent, the scope of those courses will have to be left to our discretion after careful review and consultation with the people in those communities. MR. COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Chairman.

I'm glad the Minister is finally coming around to the philosophy of reviewing and consulting with the people in the communities . I might just ask him, where any of the people in the communities consulted when it was decided to eliminate the Inter Universities North Program on March 10th? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I have no idea of how the Universities Grants Commission comes to its determinations, what type of process it goes through in making decisions as to what particular economies it will practice or what particular courses it will follow so I can't really give the member the answer to that question . MR.

COWAN: Well, while the Honourable Minister is undertaking to answer several of the other questions along the same realm that were asked earlier in the discussion this evening, perhaps he could indicate to us that he would undertake to answer this one question as to whether the Inter Universities North Program was cut off after consultation with northerners or whether it was cut off with no consultation with northerners? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I can certainly approach the University Grants Commission with that query for the member and ask him as to what type of determination was used. MR.

COWAN: I would appreciate that from the Honourable Minister, yes. Can the Honourable Minister, while he is answering questions this evening about the Universities Grants Commission and the Inter-Universities North Program, can he indicate to us any details as to the upcoming program for this year which will be operated on a limited basis, as to what communities it will operate 1889

Monday, May 8, 1978 in, what courses it will offer those communities, what student body it intends to answer itself to? MR. COSENS: No, Mr. Chairman, I cannot. That is left to the Grants Commission and to the universities to make those determinations . MR. COWAN: There was a press article- and I am looking for it right at the moment- indicating that the Inter -Universities North Program would continue with eleven full-time courses and five part time courses for a sum total of $120,000.00. Can the Minister indicate to me if that is substantially correct? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman, the only part that I know as being correct is the $120,000.00. As to what determination on courses and locations, I couldn't give him that information. MR. COWAN: As this has been reported in the press and it will take me one minute to find the article, so perhaps one of my colleague s would care to pursue this a bit further , unless theM inister would have the information or access to the information right now as to how many courses there will be? MR. CHAIRMAN: T e Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Well , Mr.

Cha irman , I am assuming from the questions and I was a couple of minutes late, that thE! Minister hasn't been able to tell us exact ly what the reinstatement of Inter Universities North me•ans.

I have heard from the north and I wonder if theM inister could confirm this , that in fact a good part of that $120,000 that he talks about is to finish off this year's prog ram, is to cover the rest of the school year program that will finish up whenever the university courses are finishing up north , w ether it is June or whether it was just in the first part of the fiscal year, whether or not a good part of that $120,000 has already been spent, and the refore the amount for the next school year is very significantly reduced - as a matter of fact , the re is very little left in the Inter Universities North account?

MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman , it is my understand ing that the IUN Committee and the Presidents have not decided as yet what courses and where they will be offe red. MR. CHAIRMAN: Tile Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. HANUSCHAK: I don 't believe that that was the question and I certainly would appreciate it if the Honourable Minister would respond to the question put to him by the Honourable Member for The Pas.

The concern is that most of the $120,000 will be spent on the program which is being completed during this first part of the fiscal year, which means for the program which either has ended now or will end some time during the month of May or June or whenever it is that the Inter Universities North academic year ends , and hence very little funds, if any, for the academic year commencing next fall in September , October , or whenever it shall commence. MR. COSENS: Well , Mr.

Chairman , I understand that we will be hearing probably in about a month's time as to how the Presidents of the Universities are going to spend this money. MR. HANUSCHAK : Yes, would the HonourableMinistertell theCommitteewhetherthe$120,000 is earmarked to cover tl1e operational expenses , the delivery expenses for the balance of the Inter Universities North Program for the academic year 1977-78 or whether it is earmarked for the academic year 1978-79, or for both? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman , I am informed that it is for both . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Church ill . MR. COWAN: Yes, IVIr.

Chairman, thank you. In that brief span of time I had opportunity to find the

article . It is from The Bulletin , which is published by the University Relations and Information Office , University of Manitoba, dated May 3rd , 1978. In The Bulletin , Page 2, we have an

article under the title "Scaled-down Version of IUN Continues ." It is the news of how that program is going to continue , comes from no less a source than President Campbell himself , "who reported to the Board of Governors" and I am reading now , "at its April 27th meeting , that Inter-Universities North Program could continue in 19713-79 as a result of a special grant from the Universities Grant Comm ission , of about $127,000.00. This will permit the offering of five summer courses , and eleven regular session courses , although the courses and locations have yet

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-37b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 37b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9c3e2db06b1b3fa066460a2eade86dc9d98acb73

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).