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April 2, 1990

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

ANNUAL REPORT, COMMISSION ON CONFLICT OF INTEREST

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

ST JOSEPH’S TRAINING SCHOOL FOR BOYS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

EDUCATION FINANCING

NUCLEAR POWER

EDUCATION FINANCING

DIRECT FLIGHTS

WHYY MEE! FOUNDATION

USE OF PUBLIC FUNDS

TOWN OF ELLIOT LAKE

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

ONTARIO LAW REFORM COMMISSION REPORTS

RESPONSES

ONTARIO LAW REFORM COMMISSION REPORTS

ORAL QUESTIONS

MINISTRY CALL TO INSURANCE COMPANY

NIAGARA ESCARPMENT

RENTAL ACCOMMODATION

MINISTRY CALL TO INSURANCE COMPANY

EDUCATION FINANCING

HOSPITAL FINANCING

HEALTH PROFESSIONS

ELECTRICITY DEMAND AND SUPPLY

ONTARIO HYDRO LABOUR DISPUTE

CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES

CAPITAL FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS

WINE INDUSTRY

HIGH TECHNOLOGY

ACCESS TO PROFESSIONS AND TRADES

INQUESTS

CLOSING OF CAMPGROUNDS

MEMBER FOR BEACHES-WOODBINE

TABLING OF INFORMATION

PETITIONS

CHILDREN’S SERVICES

WASTE DISPOSAL

EMPLOYER HEALTH TAX

INTRODUCTION OF BILL

FLAG DAY, 1990 / JOUR DU DRAPEAU NATIONAL DE 1990

ORDERS OF THE DAY

OPPOSITION DAY

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

ANNUAL REPORT, COMMISSION ON CONFLICT OF INTEREST

The Deputy Speaker: Before we start, I beg to inform the House that I have today laid upon the table the first annual report of the Commission on Conflict of Interest for the period 1 September 1988 to 31 December 1989.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

ST JOSEPH’S TRAINING SCHOOL FOR BOYS

Mr Kormos: Serious allegations have been made about incidents of sexual assaults and other physical assaults upon young boys by the staff of the now-defunct St Joseph’s Training School for Boys in Alfred. These allegations are joined by the revelation that the Ontario government of the day conducted a secret investigation in 1960 and confirmed complaints of physical and sexual abuse and that no charges were ever laid.

To know that physical and sexual violence was imposed upon children by their caretakers is in itself a repugnant prospect. That the government of this province could have aided in a coverup and protection of those responsible is abominable.

The children of Ontario must be able to grow up protected from violence, physical and sexual. As citizens we must have confidence that those in authority will pursue and prosecute those responsible for attacks upon young people. The message from St Joseph’s is to the contrary.

It is unacceptable that the complaints of youngsters at St Joseph’s were not acted upon. The passage of time is no reason for failing those same people now. The greatest tragedy is that the victims of this violence have had to live with their pain without comfort or aid, or even the decency of acknowledgement of having been a victim.

It is imperative that this government commence a public inquiry and that it be initiated without delay to investigate violence upon children at St Joseph’s prior to its closing and possible violence at other similar institutions, and to determine how the province could have allowed a coverup as it did. In addition, it is clear that the needs of those victims, now adults, must be determined and met with charity and generosity.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr McLean: My statement is directed to the Minister of Financial Institutions and concerns Bill 68, the Insurance Statute Law Amendment Act. The people of Simcoe East are opposed to Bill 68 and they are making their feelings known through letters and calls to my constituency offices in Orillia and Penetanguishene.

They are opposed to Bill 68 because it sacrifices fairness for accident victims in the name of political expediency; it will result in Ontario taxpayers paying more for lower coverage, fewer benefits and reduced rights; it contains a type of threshold insurance that will be no more cost-effective than the current system; it will likely bar 95 per cent of accident victims from access to compensation in excess of the no-fault benefits; it has the potential to reduce insurance for the very people who require protection most, the poor and the unemployed; it will do nothing to reduce premium costs or even provide a measure of price stability; it creates a tremendous social cost by eliminating the deterrent function of the current tort system, and the minister has made no effort to determine the cost to the public of administering this proposed insurance system.

My constituents have clearly indicated that this legislation should be withdrawn and redrafted. The minister should be listening to them.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr Faubert: The Premier has said, “Our ability to handle education, skills training and labour adjustment effectively in the 1990s will determine our capacity to develop a competitive economy and a high standard of living for the people of Ontario.”

Since this government took office in 1985 we have demonstrated our commitment to providing quality education for all Ontarians by increasing operating grants to school boards by $1.3 billion, or 41 per cent. We have also increased capital grants by $258 million, or 350 per cent, province-wide.

This year operating grants to school boards will increase by 8.7 per cent and capital grants by 7.1 per cent. In post-secondary education this year Ontario’s universities and colleges will receive an eight per cent increase in operating grants. This represents a total increase of almost $200 million, which does not include the $122.7 million in capital grants to post-secondary institutions.

Yet the message coming out of Ottawa is the opposite. The Prime Minister talks a good game, as he says things like: “I want to see Canadian education standards that match those of our toughest competitors. I want to see reforms that will generate education from coast to coast. I want to see action.”

The action the federal government has taken is to cut transfer payments to provinces for health and post-secondary education by $7.4 billion. Ontario alone will lose $378 million. Clearly his commitment does not match his rhetoric.

We are fortunate here in Ontario to have a provincial government committed to quality education and the willingness to support that commitment with the necessary resources. Unfortunately, our federal government’s commitment to education is more talk than action.

NUCLEAR POWER

Mr Charlton: At long last the Liberal Party has come full circle on the issue of nuclear power generation in Ontario. In the late 1950s and early 1960s the federal Liberals, in conjunction with the provincial Conservatives, dreamed up and created the nuclear power industry in the province.

Fifteen years later, in the mid-1970s, the provincial Liberals started to climb down from that nuclear power bandwagon. In 1977 they opposed adamantly Ontario Hydro’s uranium contracts. In 1978 they demanded the cancellation of two units at the Bruce nuclear heavy water plant. In 1983 the Premier, then the opposition leader, said that the building of the Darlington nuclear plant was madness and warned Ontario against moving too quickly into a nuclear future.

In 1985, during the campaign, the Premier said that finishing Darlington was a horrible mistake. In 1986 the Liberals said we should finish Darlington only because too much money had already been spent to warrant its cancellation.

In 1990, on the eve of the hearings on Hydro’s proposals for the next 25 years, which include three and perhaps four nuclear plants, the Liberal Party has finally passed a resolution supporting nuclear power. Their circles are making the people of Ontario dizzy.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr Jackson: On Friday this government announced the educational grants or general legislative grants for 1990. The minister boldly claimed that operating grants to school boards would increase by 8.7 per cent. But in reality school boards will get only a 4 per cent increase because 4.7 per cent will be used to finance government initiatives, such as the employer health levy, pay equity, new pooling, reduced class size in grades 1 and 2 and new kindergarten initiatives.

This is bad news for the property taxpayers of Ontario. Reduced provincial funding for education cost them an additional $1 billion last year. This year the boards will need an additional $800 million to cover the cost of provincially mandated programs. The net result will be double-digit tax increases for the third year in a row.

Local taxpayers will complain and school trustees will be held accountable for budgetary increases that are clearly beyond their control. This offloading of responsibility cannot continue. Education is too important for the Liberals to pursue their own political agenda at the expense of a basic public education agenda.

In 1985 the Premier promised to increase the provincial share of education funding to 60 per cent. Since making this promise the provincial share has fallen each year and will be at an all-time low of about 40 per cent this year. Clearly the Premier has not done what he said he would do. It is time the government acted on the recommendations of the select committee on education and introduced a rational basis for education finance in this province.

DIRECT FLIGHTS

Mr Chiarelli: I would like to take this opportunity to join with the member for Nepean, who last week asked the Minister of Transportation’s assistance in urging his federal counterpart to address a major concern raised by the Ottawa business community, namely, the provision of a direct air link between Ottawa and the US Midwest.

To continue to thrive in increasingly competitive business markets, the establishment of such an air link is critical to the Ottawa-Carleton economy generally and the region’s high-technology sector in particular. Because most US-based customers must make at least two transfers to get to Ottawa, most choose not to visit the facilities of Ottawa-based suppliers, putting our highest-growing sector at a distinct disadvantage with other regions in Canada and the United States.

Canada’s capital is the only major community in Canada that does not have direct access to the US Midwest. In the words of Len Potechin of the Ottawa-Carleton Economic Development Corp: “For a government that claims to be concerned about the deficit, diversifying the economy, decreasing reliance on the public purse and wants to see the private sector do more, particularly in research and development, it seems ironic that in Ottawa, we are simply grounded.”

WHYY MEE! FOUNDATION

Mr Philip: As someone who represents a large number of constituents who are members of the visible minority community, I am particularly appreciative of the valuable work being conducted by the Whyy Mee! Foundation.

In 1982, while working in the medical profession, Eugenia Pearson realized that many of her patients had needs that were not purely physical in nature. She recognized that their major problems were frequently those related to the psychological stresses resulting from the challenges of adjusting to a completely new society without the benefit of adequate support systems. This led her to become involved as a volunteer with correctional services and to found the Whyy Mee! Foundation.

Whyy Mee! is recognized as a non-profit organization with charitable status. Its doors are open to anyone who has a problem coping with legal and social services in our community; however, it places a special emphasis on attempting to reach out to immigrants and racial minorities. Its services include counselling before and after court appearances, counselling and assistance to the families of those who find themselves tied up in the Canadian legal system, advocacy in court and counselling on immigration problems.

I believe that Whyy Mee! plays an important role in bringing about a greater understanding among peoples of different colour and cultures. It deserves the congratulations and support of all members of the Legislature.

I invite my colleagues in the Legislature and their constituents to join my wife, Suzanne, and I at a fund-raising event for the Whyy Mee! Foundation on Sunday 29 April at 4 pm. This will be held at the Organ Grinder restaurant. Tickets are $10 per person and can be obtained by telephoning 481-5462.

USE OF PUBLIC FUNDS

Mr McCague: During the past few months, a number of Liberal members and cabinet ministers have been in the news for the interesting ways in which they use public funds, either in the way of salaries for staff or for cost of material, in promoting causes that have little to do with their public duties.

The most recent example came to light this past weekend. The Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations in a letter dated 26 March 1990, in a constituency envelope and using constituency letterhead, trumpeted the qualities of one Paul Costello for the position of vice-president of policy in the Ontario Liberal Party.

All those who received this letter, mailed through the Queen’s Park internal mailing service, were asked to consider the qualities of this gentleman when casting their ballots at the Liberal convention this past weekend in Windsor; if they wanted to meet Mr Costello, then they were urged to attend a hospitality suite the minister was hosting at the local Holiday Inn.

To be sure that he did not miss any potential voters who might throw their support behind Mr Costello, the minister must have cast a very wide net indeed. The letter I am quoting from was received by my colleague the member for Hastings-Peterborough who, in spite of the minister’s enthusiastic support, did not vote for Mr Costello.

TOWN OF ELLIOT LAKE

Mr Brown: Elliot Lake offers the best of everything. It provides excellent accommodation, health and recreational facilities both for its long-time residents and for a new seniors population that has recently been attracted by Elliot Lake’s highly successful retirement living program. However, the recent announcements of workforce reductions by Rio Algom mines and Denison Mines was a severe blow to the community; 2,000 primary jobs will be lost to the area.

In single-industry towns such as Elliot Lake, this is an economic setback of great magnitude, but not one that could not be overcome. We must strive to improve and enhance opportunities for new local employment through economic diversification. The province has decided that its response to these workforce reductions will coincide with and support the goals and strategies of the community.

This method was chosen because the government truly believes that local solutions to local problems will work better than solutions imposed from Queen’s Park. Therefore, this government will be a full-fledged partner in the implementation of Elliot Lake’s strategic plan.

An interministerial committee of concerned ministries has already met and will be co-ordinating the government’s responses to this great problem. By working together, we will build a strong and diversified society and economy for both ourselves and our children.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

ONTARIO LAW REFORM COMMISSION REPORTS

Hon Mr Scott: Today I will be tabling two reports of the Ontario Law Reform Commission. These are the Report on the Liability of the Crown and the Report on Damages for Environmental Harm. The commission, as members will know, is an independent legal think tank established by the Ontario government in 1964.

The commission’s Report on the Liability of the Crown notes that in spite of earlier major reforms, the current law governing liability of the Ontario crown still provides the government and its servants with certain privileges and immunities that are not enjoyed by ordinary persons.

The commission finds that this inconsistency can make it difficult in some situations for a member of the public to obtain redress against the crown. As well, many crown immunities and privileges are not, in the view of the commission, in conformity with the general principles underlying the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

On the basis of these findings, the report recommends the abolition of many crown privileges and immunities and an overall rationalization of the rules relating to crown liability which would simplify the law in this area. The general principle underlying the commission’s recommendations is that government and its servants should, like any member of the public, be subject to the ordinary law with the exceptions only of certain unique powers and immunities necessary for effective government.

The Ontario Law Reform Commission’s Report on Damages for Environmental Harm recommends the creation of a new statutory remedy for the protection of the environment. The commission’s view is that those who cause harm to the environment should be liable to pay civil damages to compensate the public for the harm.

The remedy is intended to reflect the commission’s perception that a harm to the environment has a broader dimension, distinct from any direct injury suffered by individuals for which redress is due to the general public. Damages collected under such a remedy would be given to a special government body to be applied to the restoration and rehabilitation of the environment.

The commission suggests that such damage claim for environmental harm might be brought not only by the government, but by individuals and public interest groups that have standing under the proposed new standing rules recommended in the commission’s 1989 Report on the Law of Standing, which was tabled in this House.

I invite all members of the Legislature and of the public to review the recommendations, some very contentious, that the commission has made with regard to the protection of the environment and to the liability of the crown, and to let the government have their views thereon.

RESPONSES

ONTARIO LAW REFORM COMMISSION REPORTS

Mr Kormos: We welcome and appreciate the recommendations of the Ontario Law Reform Commission, particularly in so far as they expand and increase the tort rights against wrongdoers. It is remarkable that the law reform commission would be saying that, and it is remarkable that this government would be so out of step with the forefront of thinking when it comes to tort and civil liability.

We very much hope that this government embraces these recommendations, as we do, and recognizes the value of them to people across Ontario, especially in so far as our environment is concerned, and how valuable the tort system is to maintaining an environment that is livable. At the same time this government is denying innocent injured victims of motor vehicle accidents those same tort remedies that the law reform commission, in a progressive way, is recommending the government provide in terms of the interests of the environment and the community in general.

This government not only wants to deny to 95 per cent of all injured innocent accident victims the right to be compensated for pain and suffering and loss of enjoyment of life, but this government wants to take away, in its Bill 68, the right of those very same innocent injured victims to go to a courtroom to seek redress if they feel that is necessary.

This government is so out of step and so regressive. This government has a law reform commission that makes progressive and beneficial recommendations. This government unfortunately is obviously not prepared to listen to the people of Ontario. One suspects that if it follows suit, it is not prepared to listen to the law reform commission either. This government has taken the people of Ontario back five decades instead of forward into the 1990s.

Mr B. Rae: I just want to call attention to the very significant report of the law reform commission entitled Report on Damages for Environmental Harm.

My colleague the member for Etobicoke-Lakeshore has brought forward a private member’s bill that stands in her name entitled Bill 12, the Ontario Environmental Rights Act, 1989, which deals with a subject that is entirely parallel to the one being discussed by the law reform commission. It is a very significant question; I am sure the Attorney General will want to listen to this, as he always does want to listen to others. Unless we give to citizens the right to enforce the law, and if we leave it entirely in the hands of a government bureaucracy, it will not happen on its own.

We now understand that until we give to citizens the right to enforce the law, the law will not be as effectively enforced as it needs to be. The fact that the law reform commission, in a very thorough document which has gone through a number of the remedies being applied in other common law jurisdictions, has looked at expanding the notion of the law of standing and given to the public and given to citizens acting in the name of the public the right to enforce the law is a significant move forward.

But it is only as significant as the

definitions of the environment and the standards for water quality and air quality set out by the government of the day. As long as we have governments that are unprepared to bring in effective standards, it is not going to be enough to say that we give to citizens the right to sue for damages on behalf of the general interest.

This is indeed a creative report. I know it is one that will cause a great deal of public discussion. One can only hope that it will cause public action. I can assure you, Mr Speaker, that after the next election it will cause public action.

Mr Sterling: First of all, I would like to congratulate the Ontario Law Reform Commission for what appears at first blush to be another very good piece of work. I only hope the Attorney General and the government of Ontario will pay some attention and not put these reports on the shelf with so many other reports that seem to be piling higher and higher but seem to evoke no positive, real legal reform on the part of this Liberal government.

It is hard to either support or reject all the ideas contained in the overview the Attorney General presented to us. However, I do say that there is room within our legal system to provide more accountability on the part of the government for its actions to its citizens. Therefore, we would welcome in some ways the widening of the rights of the citizenry of Ontario to sue the government for wrongs in a civil manner.

The second area that I think is of extreme interest and has been mentioned by the leader of the New Democratic Party is the Report on Damages for Environmental Harm. I do not hold out great hope that the government of Ontario will be a successful litigant in the courts against an individual or a corporation with regard to environmental harm. However, I do hold out significant hope that an individual, a group of individuals or a private interest would have a great chance of success in the courts in seeking damages for environmental wrongs. I think it is only by widening the net of responsibility for environmental harm that we will face the environmental problems we have in this province.

I see this second report as extremely important to us in the next decade of our history in Ontario. I would only urge the Attorney General and the government of Ontario not to shelve this particular report, but to start generating public input and start introducing legislation to put these reforms into effect.

Mrs Marland: Speaking to the report of the Ontario Law Reform Commission as it pertains to environmental harm, I think first of all we should recognize the significance of this report based on the fact that here we have a highly respected, auspicious body that recognized something that obviously this government fails to recognize. We have a Minister of the Environment in Ontario today who by his lack of proactive programs, maybe even through the error of omission, might be guilty under some of the recommendations that are in this report today.

It is very interesting when we look back to last year that we had this supposedly innovative, exciting throne speech that, for example, announced with respect to the environment a new lottery, Cleantario. That was a lottery, we understood, to protect the environment. What do we have instead of the fulfilment of yet another Liberal government announcement? We do not have a new lottery in terms of protecting the environment; we have another hand digging into the same pot of our existing lottery profits, along with the hospital operations.

All we can say is that the Ontario Law Reform Commission is to be congratulated. They recognize what is going on today in this province in terms of the risk and danger to the environment. It is fortunate that somebody knows what is going on, because the Liberal government does not. Their remedy at the moment for environmental damage is simply to announce programs after the fact.

Certainly the Hagersville tire fire will live on for ever and haunt everybody’s responsibilities, because after the fire they made an announcement. Therefore, when the Ontario Law Reform Commission says that there should be a new statutory remedy for the protection of the environment, it is because what is going on is not working.

ORAL QUESTIONS

MINISTRY CALL TO INSURANCE COMPANY

Mr B. Rae: I would like to ask a question of the Premier. It has been reported in the media, and I want to ask the Premier how he feels about it, that a member of the staff of the Minister of Financial Institutions phoned a shareholder of an insurance company, Kingsway General Insurance Co, asking the shareholder to put pressure on the president of that company not to send the Premier a letter with respect to the insurance bill that is before the House today. Can the Premier explain how a member of the Liberal government’s staff would possibly have got it into his mind that this is something he ought to do?

Hon Mr Peterson: I believe the Minister of Financial Institutions has dealt with this matter and I am sure he would be happy to tell the member how he did so.

Hon Mr Elston: The honourable gentleman makes an assertion that is, first of all, not proper in the sense that pressure was applied. Contact was made by the member of my staff, who in fact was not putting pressure on anybody to do anything but was inquiring what had been done with the company in the direction given to the particular gentleman.

No pressure was being applied by my staff member, but just in case there was anything misconstrued about the call, I have advised my staff member that such action should not be taken in the future. In fact, he has received a reprimand with respect to the call, although I am satisfied that he was not applying pressure, was not intending to apply pressure and in fact did not apply pressure in this particular case.

Mr B. Rae: The minister cannot have it both ways. He cannot say to his staff member, “You didn’t do anything wrong, I agree with you, but whatever you did, don’t do it again.” That does not make any sense. This minister and this government have claimed all along how independent they are of the insurance industry. If we ever needed proof that this government is in bed with the insurance industry, it is phoning shareholders of individual companies asking them to take steps with respect to what is going on on an individual letter.

Is the minister prepared to have his staff member come before a committee of this House and answer questions with respect to his activities in relationship to that insurance company?

Hon Mr Elston: In relation to what the honourable gentleman first started out with, he indicated that my staff person had asked the gentleman not to send a letter. That in fact is not the case. The letter had been sent on to the Premier’s office and had demanded a two-day turnaround in terms of reply. The staff member had spoken, rightly, to the sender of the letter and said, “Listen, people are away; give us some time,” in appreciation of the time to do correspondence and not to require a two-day turnaround. Then he set about trying to understand the basis upon which this letter had been sent.

The letter was already sent. There is no question about that. There was no indication that he wanted people to take action or not to take action, but merely to find out what was happening.

I will tell the member one thing: The fact that this particular president of this particular insurance company is complaining about it does not bear out the fact that there is some cosy relationship, but bears out the fact that we are inquiring into what is going on in the business. In fact, this president takes offence at our trying to understand what the pressures are inside the insurance industry.

They are concerned about the fact that we are trying to take action on behalf of the consumers of this province, and this is just a way in which that president wishes to respond to our wanting to know about the insurance industry and wanting to know what it takes to protect the consumers of the province, rather than the version that the Leader of the Opposition has been trying to create here in the question.

Mr B. Rae: Let me say to the minister that he has a story to tell. His staff member has a story to tell. Mr Star has a story to tell. I would think that his shareholder in the United States has a story to tell. The minister says he is right. Mr Star says he is right. He was on one end of the phone. The minister’s staff person was on the other end of the phone. What I am suggesting is that it would be fair and reasonable for this government to agree to refer this entire matter to a legislative committee. If not, what has the minister got to hide?

Why is he hiding the kinds of activities that are going on in terms of contact between members of his staff and individual shareholders of the insurance industry? What has the minister got to hide anyway?

Hon Mr Elston: There is nothing to hide with respect to what was going on. In fact, I have taken steps to indicate to my staff person that I understood what he was attempting to do and where the pressure for a two-day turnaround in the letter to the Premier’s office was coming from. I tell all of my staff people to be thoroughly advised of the facts and to come up with the truth of the case, to make the inquiries that they need to.

I told the person in this case, although I understood the matter was being handled properly in his view, that perhaps he had overstepped his bounds -- I do not believe he tried for one moment to put pressure on anybody -- and if he left the impression that there was pressure, he should not do it again. I have told him and reprimanded him to make sure that he understands how serious this is in terms of having a call made from the minister’s office. I can tell the honourable gentleman that since I have dealt with this and taken the steps to deal with it, I think the matter has come to an end satisfactorily.

I think that will ensure that sensitive dealing with issues about pressure being put on anybody will be handled better by that particular staff member.

Just let me say one other thing. We will always attempt to get the clear, factual basis upon which pressure is being applied on the ministry and on the minister’s office. We will continue to make thorough investigations on behalf of the consumers. When those people call us about inappropriate activity by those companies, my office will continue to make the inquiries to ensure that we are protecting consumers. We will not be put off by the requests of the honourable gentleman.

NIAGARA ESCARPMENT

Mrs Grier: My question is for the Premier. On Wednesday the Premier will be hosting the inauguration of Ontario’s Niagara Escarpment as a UNESCO biosphere reserve. This gives international recognition to what the Canadian Commission for UNESCO has described as Canada’s first large-scale environmental land use plan -- a plan, let us remind ourselves, that was supported by all three parties in this House. I am, and I know the Premier is, very proud of this designation by UNESCO and I welcome it. I would like the Premier to tell the House what plans he has to transfer administration of this environmental land use plan and the Niagara Escarpment Commission to the Ministry of the Environment.

Hon Mr Peterson: I appreciate the honourable member’s suggestion on how to administer that particular plan. Some may feel it is better administered in one area as opposed to another. I am not sure that is the main issue. The main issue, I believe, is the substance of that great plan, which as my honourable friend has said was not conceived by this government. It was added to substantially by all members of this House. I look at a number across the floor who added a lot to it and I highly respect that.

It had its genesis many years ago. There may be some compelling reason to change it to the Ministry of the Environment -- I am certainly open to suggestions in that regard -- but I think my honourable friend would be the first to admit that it has achieved this international recognition the way it is done. If there is a better way to do it, I am always open to it. It is not, frankly, a matter of major public policy to me one way or the other, but I am always open to new suggestions.

Mrs Grier: This morning the member for York South and I visited an area of the Niagara Escarpment in the Halton Hills area. We saw gravel pits, proposed gravel pits, land being prepared in anticipation of gravel pits and worked-out gravel pits that are proposed to be used for the garbage from Metropolitan Toronto, all on the face of this internationally recognized environmentally significant piece of Ontario.

The legislation that inaugurated the Niagara Escarpment plan says very clearly that the purpose of the act is to provide for the maintenance of the Niagara Escarpment as a continuous natural environment. How can the Premier possibly justify accepting designation as a biosphere and yet say that he is quite happy with the substance of the plan and at the same time allow garbage pits to be created, to be expanded, to be inaugurated on the very brink of the escarpment?

Hon Mr Peterson: I appreciate the advice of my honourable friend on this matter. As she knows, these things are in the hands of the escarpment commission. But I recognize my honourable friend stands up and exemplifies the schizophrenia of her party. On the one hand she would like to take credit for this international award and believes that she was instrumental in that, and on the other hand she is so critical. Why would she not stand up and celebrate on this happy occasion; get out of the pits, stand up and celebrate?

Mrs Grier: I think the Premier has hit on the nub of the issue. We all celebrate this designation. Citizens’ groups along the escarpment celebrate it and, as they celebrate, they wonder why they are forced time and again to fight to protect the escarpment. The escarpment commission does not have the resources to do the job it would like to do and citizens’ groups spend their time, their energy and their money to try to prevent this government from putting garbage dumps and quarries in the escarpment.

I am prepared to celebrate. When will the Premier give us real cause for celebration: protection of the escarpment? That is what we want.

Hon Mr Peterson: I have been debating whether to invite the honourable member to this great ceremony.

Mrs Grier: You already have and I have accepted.

Hon Mr Peterson: I have? I have been debating whether I should rescind the invitation to the honourable member.

Mrs Grier: And I am bringing my friends.

Hon Mr Peterson: I want her to come and take credit for this, as she always does, and she can make her little speech. But she should look at what is happening. I think she should celebrate, enjoy. I think she should not be so negative on the situation. The United Nations has recognized that this process is working extremely well. It is highly democratic. We have very able people making the decisions with respect to the escarpment and compared to the other things in the world.

My honourable friend will always criticize. I am used to that. That is in her nature. It is tough for her to summon up any charity for these matters, but let me say, since I have invited her, she should come and celebrate.

RENTAL ACCOMMODATION

Mr Brandt: My question is for the Premier. The Premier is well aware of the fact that --

Hon Mr Peterson: You can come too, Andy.

Mr Brandt: I did not receive an invitation. If I had received an invitation I might have accepted and I might have joined the Premier and the member for Etobicoke-Lakeshore in the pits that particular day. I know the Premier will be making little speeches, along with the critic for Environment.

The Deputy Speaker: The question is?

Mr Brandt: I did not start this, Mr Speaker. I want you to know that.

My question for the Premier is on a very serious subject that relates to perhaps one of the most difficult challenges that his government has to face, that being the housing crisis that I believe we have here in Ontario. As the Premier is well aware, back in 1987 during a particular activity in which he was involved in the fall of that year, he made a number of promises and commitments to the people of this province relative to a certain target number for rental housing units that he was proposing to have completed as part of his totally completed agenda which he talked about rather recently.

Of those 102,000 promised units, I wonder if the Premier could share with this House how many have been completed to date.

Hon Mr Peterson: The minister will be able to assist the honourable member with respect to the specifics, but may I say before I refer the question, recognizing that he has very few invitations these days, he is very welcome to attend on Wednesday next.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Hon Mr Sweeney: From 1985, when this government first assumed responsibility, up to the present, there are approximately 55,000 units that have been completed, as the honourable member would be aware, and roughly 30,000 that are in various stages of completion. I would expect by about 1993, or maybe a little earlier, we would be up around the 90,000 figure.

Mr Brandt: The minister will be aware that the promise made was to complete the 102,000 units by the end of 1989. We have now passed the end of 1989 by some three months. The figure I have, and I will give the minister the benefit of the doubt, is considerably lower than the figure he has shared. It might be of further interest to some of his colleagues to be advised that fully half of the units that the minister has constructed to date have been with the assistance of the federal government.

Since the minister has fallen far short of his target, which was 102,000 units by the end of 1989, what plans does he have in place to catch up with this absolutely dramatic shortfall in meeting the very numbers in terms of objectives that the government set?

Hon Mr Sweeney: I would say that 90,000, compared to the approximate 100,000, is not a significant shortfall. But the honourable member is well aware of the fact that we do have about 5,000 units a year which we cost share with the federal government, and that number has been declining every single year since we formed the government. At the same time, the number of units which this province produces unilaterally has been climbing every single year since we formed the government, and I think that is a pretty good tradeoff.

Mr Brandt: Again I want to advise the minister that the numbers I have received through our research are considerably lower than the numbers he is suggesting. Would he agree to share with this House the numbers that he has relative to rental completions so we can work from the same agenda and ask questions with respect to this matter in an area where perhaps we can reach some agreement?

Again I want to say to the minister that 102,000 units were promised. It is my understanding that the number actually completed is closer to 20,000, not 55,000, as he has suggested. Will the minister agree to table with this House information relative to the number of housing units started and completed and where he is relative to his promise of 102,000 units?

Hon Mr Sweeney: I would be quite happy to share with my honourable colleague the source of the numbers that I used. In partial response to his previous question, I should point out to him that I have been in consultation with the Ontario Non-Profit Housing Association and the Co-operative Housing Association of Ontario looking for ways to extend this program even further.

The honourable member will be aware of the fact that our cost-sharing mechanism with the federal government also includes rent supplement programs whereby we work out an arrangement with the private sector to assume responsibility for some of the units which it builds. That is built into the figure as well, and that may be part of the reason for the difference.

MINISTRY CALL TO INSURANCE COMPANY

Mr Runciman: I have another question for the Minister of Financial Institutions related to the conduct of his executive assistant and his efforts to pressure -- and I think that is the appropriate word -- Mr Star and the shareholders of his company to not make a certain letter public. I think that was where the pressure was exerted, certainly not to hold back the letter and get a two-and-a-half-day turnaround on the letter.

I inferred from the minister’s nonanswers earlier that he found out about this matter simply through press reports. He says “true.” I would like him to stand up and confirm that on the record, that indeed he just found out about this through press reports. If that is the case, what does this say about the conduct of his staff and his own competence?

Hon Mr Elston: I found out that there was concern being expressed to my staff member by Mr Star last Friday, and we talked about things that he had spoken about, both to Mr Star and the company in the United States that has a substantial interest in the Kingsway insurance company, prior to the weekend. So I did not find out about it just through the press.

Mr Runciman: I would think that the minister should find that totally unacceptable conduct. It is an abuse of power by the government, and there is obviously an ethical vacuum in the minister’s office. We are talking about his own executive assistant applying pressure to shareholders of an insurance company, really an effort in damage control. Again, as has been said earlier, it reflects the very close ties of this government with the insurance industry in respect of Bill 68.

I want the minister to respond to this: Will he tell the House how his executive assistant would think that his conduct was acceptable conduct as a senior aide to this minister?

Hon Mr Elston: My executive assistant has told me, and I have inquired with him the exact nature of the discussion, and I am satisfied that it was not his intention to even be seen to be applying pressure. His way of contacting people, I have indicated to him, may have been inappropriate inasmuch as it left an impression.

I am satisfied that there was no intention on his part to exert pressure, and I have told him that when he exercises his judgement again -- and that is, in fact, what I meant by the reprimand -- that he in fact leave no impression in discussing anything with anyone who calls him or whom he calls about issues which are current that there is pressure being exerted by my office. I have advised him of that, I have taken the steps necessary to ensure, in my mind, that his conduct will not be repeated and in fact it is, in my view, now completely concluded.

Mr Runciman: Well, for the minister to stand in this House and suggest that this gentleman was not applying pressure, he must have been born yesterday or think other members of this Legislature were born yesterday.

The quote is from an individual in the Premier’s office: “It is not the way we do things in the Liberal government.” That is a good one. He is also saying this is a very serious matter. The minister here this afternoon is trying to just shrug this off: “This is not a serious matter.” Indeed, members on this side of the House think it is, and it also reflects very seriously on the minister, his competence and the operations of his office.

I want to share the view of the opposition leader in calling upon the minister and his colleagues in government to give this matter a full public hearing before a committee of this Legislature. Why is he not prepared to do that?

Hon Mr Elston: If I might continue to reply to the honourable gentleman, there is, in my view, nothing in the sense of being hidden. There is nothing to hide. I have told the members of the Legislature that the call was made but that there was not an intention to apply pressure. In fact, we were looking to find out exactly what was happening inside that organization, and that does not bear out the contention of the member for Leeds-Grenville or of the member for York South that there is such a cozy relationship.

In fact, what we are trying to do as an organization, as a government, is to find out exactly what is happening inside the insurance companies so that we can determine how to best protect the consumers of the province. We will continue to communicate with people who we think can provide us with assistance in coming up with the best package of insurance for the consumers.

I have told my executive assistant, however, in this case, that it has left an impression with Mr Star, who is the president of Kingsway, that there was some pressure being exerted and I have told him that I did not find that acceptable behaviour -- that is where the reprimand comes in -- and that he had better not leave any impression whatsoever. If he must start every phone call by saying, “I am not putting any pressure on people” or whatever, then he is to do it, but there will be no pressure exerted through his telephone calls and that should not occur again.

I am now satisfied that it puts an end to this issue, that it puts an end to any concern they ought to have about my executive assistant, whose morals and ethics I have quite a high regard for in the sense that he is a very honourable individual. But the people over there are trying to create a misimpression of this individual’s integrity, and I am concerned that they wish to do that in this particular forum.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr D. S. Cooke: I have a question for the provincial Treasurer. It is concerning the massive shift of taxation from his level of government to municipalities that has been occurring since he has been the Treasurer of this province. In 1984 the provincial government covered 47.8 per cent of the cost of education in this province; after the announcement on Friday the government will be covering 40.8 per cent of the cost of education at the elementary and secondary levels in this province.

How can the Treasurer possibly justify this massive shift to property tax -- an unfair, regressive tax -- when it was his government, his party, that promised that it would be raising the rate of grants to 60 per cent for education in this province?

Hon R. F. Nixon: The honourable member, who is a fair-minded member indeed, would want to add to the knowledge of the members who might not be aware of it that the increase for school boards this year was just about eight per cent. It really means that it is, in absolute dollars, one of the largest additional funds for educational purposes that I have had the honour to announce to the Legislature.

The fact that the school boards have an independent responsibility to fund education as they see fit means that they go forward with decisions relating to school costs at the local level. The fact that this increase is more rapid than the increase of our expenditure, even though our transfers are at eight per cent, is not in my control.

Mr D. S. Cooke: There are things that are under the Treasurer’s control. The arguments he uses are absolute nonsense. They are not the kinds of arguments he used when he was in opposition and used to say that the other party should be bringing in a 60 per cent rate of grant for secondary and elementary.

The 8.7 per cent that the Minister of Education announced on Friday, all of it but 2.5 per cent, was for new initiatives that the government initiated, not the school boards. That means there is going to be another transfer of costs, where educational property taxes will be going up 14 and 15 per cent across this province.

The Treasurer criticizes the Mulroney government for shifting responsibilities on him, and he does it exactly the same way, except the only response the school boards have in this province is to raise property taxes, which hurts low-income families the most, as the Treasurer knows.

The Deputy Speaker: The supplementary?

Mr D. S. Cooke: Is the Treasurer going to promise again in the next provincial election a 60 per cent rate of grant, and is that promise going to be as good as the ones he made in the last two elections?

Hon R. F. Nixon: I think the honourable member was accusing me of speaking nonsense, since I used to say the same things that he is saying at the present time. Surely it is nonsense to suggest that a per capita funding rate of over $6,000 per student is inadequate when it is as high as any one would find anyplace in the world. Our funding for education from both levels, the municipal and the provincial levels, really gives us as much money in the public and separate school systems as one will find in any jurisdiction. I think that school boards and the Ministry of Education should be quite proud of this.

The honourable member knows that when we took office just five years ago, the support for capital, for example, was about $74 million a year; this year the honourable Minister of Education has announced $300 million. So I would suggest to the honourable member, if there is any nonsense in this debate, it is not on the side of the government.

HOSPITAL FINANCING

Mr J. M. Johnson: My question is for the Minister of Health. Dr James Murray, chairman of the board of trustees of St Joseph’s Hospital in Guelph, is distressed and angered by the Ministry of Health’s decision to change the direction of its 1987 plans for hospital redevelopment in Guelph. Dr Murray is concerned not only about the delay that will result but about the additional capital costs of this new project. Will the minister guarantee that this new hospital complex can be built with the same capital commitment of $58.6 million from her ministry and within the time frame projected for the 1987 plan?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I am very aware of the issue that the member raises and want to assure him that the member for Guelph has in fact been an excellent advocate on behalf of meeting the needs of the community. I want to say to him as well that the ministry will keep its financial commitment to meet the health needs of the city of Guelph and that we believe that by working together we can do that within the financial commitment that has been made.

Mr J. M. Johnson: The citizens of Guelph and Wellington will not be deceived again. In the words of Dr James Murray, the delay is “intolerable to the trustees of St Joseph’s Hospital without an immediate assurance from you that the physical infrastructure of that facility will be brought up to the required safety standards. Assurance on a more realistic capital cost allocation from the ministry is also needed.” Will the minister now provide the House with those assurances?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I can say to the member opposite that our capital planning framework in fact addresses the very concerns that the member raises as a priority. Infrastructure renewal, health and occupational safety issues, and the convenience of both the staff and the patients is a priority.

I would say to him as well that we are committed to seeing the development of an acute care facility for the city of Guelph. We will be establishing two committees which will expedite the necessary planning. One group will deal with the planning in hospital services, the other with the governance and the organization of a health system for the city of Guelph.

We are committed as well to the development of a state-of-the-art long-term care system within the province and see this as an opportunity for the city of Guelph in fact to be a model hospital centre and a model community when it develops an appropriate network and system of services within its community.

HEALTH PROFESSIONS

Mr Neumann: My question too is for the Minister of Health. The minister is certainly aware of the far-reaching work that has gone on with the health professions legislation review. Draft legislation was proposed last year, and she has been consulting with a number of groups.

I too have had groups from our community and across the province mention to me their concerns about some of this legislation, and some of them are anxious for it to get on: the Ontario Dental Hygienists’ Association, the Ontario Naturopathic Association. My colleague the member for Kenora mentioned to me that he recently met with health care professionals and volunteers in Dryden. What they would like to know is, when will the minister complete the legislation and introduce it into the House?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I want to thank the member for both his question and his interest in this very important package of legislation. As he knows, the health professions legislation review began some seven years ago. I hope this spring, in fact, to be tabling a package of framework for the self-regulation and the self-governance of some 24 professions in the province of Ontario. I have met with all of those professions which are included in the legislation, and I must say to the member that there is a remarkable consensus that the time is appropriate for this package to be tabled in the Legislature for discussion and I hope that that will occur this spring.

Mr Neumann: One of the recommendations dealt with deregulation of some professions. There seems to be an ongoing concern that if this recommendation is approved, how will this affect the average citizen? Will they still be able to meet with the deregulated professions? This is an example of ongoing concerns which might continue despite the introduction --

The Deputy Speaker: The question has been asked.

Mr Neumann: I would like to ask the minister about that and whether or not, once the legislation is tabled, citizens will continue with the opportunity to have input.

Hon Mrs Caplan: As in any package of new legislation and proposal for a new framework, there are always questions and concerns. Over the past seven years since this discussion began, most of the discussions in fact have been between the professions. I would commit myself today to the honourable member that we would seek full public hearings after second reading to ensure that all of those concerns can be addressed.

I would say specifically that I met recently with some clergymen who expressed the concerns that the honourable member addressed, and I would say to him, as I said to them, that there was no intention to in any way impact on the important work of the clergymen of this province and that during the hearings process I think that amendments can be forthcoming which will address all of their concerns.

ELECTRICITY DEMAND AND SUPPLY

Mr Charlton: In the absence of the Minister of Energy, I would like to address my question to the Premier. Ontario Hydro has been touting its demand management and energy-efficiency programs as the most aggressive on the continent. As a matter of fact, in response to a question which I raised on 20 December, the Premier himself said, “I am told that this is the most ambitious conservation program by any utility in North America.”

Perhaps the Premier could tell us: When Ontario Hydro, or any other crown agency, for that matter, boasts in that way, who over there does any checking to ensure that that kind of boast is in fact valid and worth repeating on the part of the government?

Hon Mr Peterson: It is all there for the public to see. I am sure my honourable friend, with his very large research budget, would want to look into the matter. It has been reviewed before committees here, and he may have some information to bring to bear on the subject. There are no secrets about this. It is all there for everyone to see.

Mr Charlton: It may be all there for everyone to see, but it is obvious the Premier and his staff and the staff of the Minister of Energy have not done very much checking or they would not bother to repeat this kind of incorrect information.

Hydro not only does not have the best energy-efficiency program of any utility on the continent, but it is not even close to the best. A small utility in Maine, Central Maine Power Co, a utility less than a tenth the size of Ontario Hydro, in 1990 is spending more than twice what Ontario Hydro has budgeted for energy efficiency --

The Deputy Speaker: Supplementary?

Mr Charlton: When are the Premier and the Minister of Energy and the bureaucrats over there going to get on top of Ontario Hydro to ensure that what they have said will happen in this review in fact happens, that all of the facts and all of the alternatives are clearly looked at?

Hon Mr Peterson: I am just going by memory, but I think part of the demand/supply options study is to squeeze 4,000 megawatts out of current uses. It is a very aggressive program.

My honourable friend equates results to spending. That is one of the structural problems of the New Democratic Party. They do not understand how the real world works. He has got every right to say that, but if he has information to bring to bear, or any constructive suggestions, I will certainly pass them along.

ONTARIO HYDRO LABOUR DISPUTE

Mr Cureatz: I have a question to the Minister of Correctional Services, but while I have 15 seconds, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Energy, who is not here, but also the Minister of Labour and the Premier for averting what could have been a very serious Hydro strike. As critic of the Minister of Energy, I have been very critical of this administration, but it does not embarrass me from time to time to throw out a few little laurels.

The Deputy Speaker: The question?

CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES

Mr Cureatz: To the Minister of Correctional Services, I want to indicate to him that, as he well knows --

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Mr Cureatz: -- in the facilities of the Don Jail, Metro east, Metro west and in my region of Durham in the Whitby Jail, there has been extensive overcrowding of inmates, which has put a great deal of mental pressure on not only the correctional staff but on those inmates in those institutions when overcrowding occurs.

We have seen recently what has happened in Europe in terms of the intense frustrations that can result from overcrowding. I realize this cannot be resolved on an immediate basis, but would the minister again share with us some of his thoughts about the progress he is making on trying to alleviate the serious overcrowding situations that are taking place in our correctional institutions?

Hon Mr Patten: I appreciate the question from my flamboyant, generous critic, who is one of the few to offer congratulatory comments to others. We appreciate that.

In terms of the population pressures that we have in our particular ministry, it is well known. We have talked about this and debated it. The member will recall some of the announcements I made in late October related to our intentions, and more recently some specific announcements on adding beds, particularly in the Metro Toronto area, that we believe will go a long way to help relieve some of the overcapacity pressures that we have. There is a whole series of approaches that we have in terms of transferring people on remand, for example, or intermittence on the weekend, where we receive abnormal numbers from the police forces that bring some of these persons who are charged into our care.

More particularly, the member mentions that I have been touring these facilities. I have visited well over 60 per cent of the institutions to this point, and I think it is important to note that it is not a universal pressure across the province. It is of particular concern here and we are taking a number of measures to address those.

Mr Cureatz: I would appreciate it if the minister could inform us whether he has had the opportunity of visiting the Whitby Jail. My colleague from Oshawa and I had the opportunity three weeks ago of visiting the institution for almost a full day. I can assure the minister that in terms of present-day institutions, in regard to rehabilitation, the place is extremely archaic. It is antiquated.

There are some funds, as we were told, that will be spent in terms of making the facilities a little more pleasant, if that is possible, for the correctional officers, but I had the opportunity of reviewing in great detail some of the problems encountered by the Whitby Jail, and I am going to be pursuing this with the minister over the next few months --

The Deputy Speaker: Supplementary?

Mr Cureatz: Will he investigate the possibilities of selling that institution, which is now located on a prime piece of real estate land in the town of Whitby? With the funds garnered, he could build a new, up-to-date institution down the road on property owned by the government of Ontario, some 100 acres at the Whitby Psychiatric Hospital. With the new institution, we could be striving for something called rehabilitation to ensure that we do not have repetitiveness in terms of inmates who are coming in constantly and causing the overcrowded conditions in, among other places, the Whitby Jail.

Hon Mr Patten: I would welcome at any time particular proposals that the member for Durham East has, or perhaps members of his constituency or any other, that can make a contribution to the continual upgrading. I know that the member indeed does appreciate that over 50 per cent of our institutions are very, very old institutions. He well knows as well that we have made major capital allocations to this particular area, and it does not take much to eat up tens of millions of dollars for expansion or renovations.

I would like to point out to him that in the Whitby Jail we have made some staff additions, and I believe he knows about this. We are also refurbishing the administrative portion, where staff are far too crowded in their operations. What that will mean is that there will be an addition of some program space for the inmates in that institution, which will help to provide a little bit more elbow room in the institution. At this particular point, I do not have a date for some additional expansion space for more beds, although it is part of our longer-range plan.

CAPITAL FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS

Miss Roberts: My question is to the Minister of Education. Since 1985, $265,000 have been spent on roof repairs, boiler breakdowns, leaking pipes at St Joseph’s High School in the Elgin riding. A large portion of this school was built before the turn of the century. There are many problems being faced with this building, overcrowding being one of them.

With these problems and the fact that St Joe’s is the only Roman Catholic high school in my riding, the Ministry of Education granted $200,000 for site acquisition for this new Roman Catholic school in 1989. Taxpayers are now awaiting capital allocations from the ministry to build. My question is, when and what response can the Elgin County Roman Catholic Separate School Board expect from the ministry regarding capital funding for 1990 and 1991?

Hon Mr Conway: The honourable member makes a very good point, as many other members, including the member for Sarnia, have made representations on behalf of school boards with older facilities, facilities that did not seem to get much attention from a previous administration, but this government over the last few years has been dedicating very considerable additional dollars, not just to build new facilities in growth areas but to improve or replace facilities such as the one the honourable member has raised.

I can assure her that the fact that an initial allocation for a new site was approved by my predecessor, the member for Wentworth North, in recent times is a very encouraging sign. We are looking at the most recent capital requests from school boards, and I can assure the member that later this spring I hope to be in a position to announce some additional capital allocations for school boards across the province.

Miss Roberts: I heard the minister say that he hopes some time later this spring. The school board is now trying to find space for the new pupils that it is gathering as a result of looking forward to a new high school being built. They are having to rent church basements to find new spaces. When will the allocations be ready? How much later this spring?

Hon Mr Conway: It is a good question, because the member, I want it said, has made very vigorous representations on behalf of both her school boards, and I commend her for that. I believe there was a meeting involving her office and mine on these matters a few weeks ago, and I expect that, hopefully later this month, I will be in a better position to speak to the capital pressures, which are very considerable.

I think it has to be observed that as our allocations have increased to three and four times what they were four and five years ago, the requests out there from school boards have also increased by the same factor.

I have heard what she said. I will do the very best I can, but I have to tell her and her community that there is a tremendous demand for what is unfortunately a limited supply of public dollars.

Mr Wildman: If the minister takes as long to make up his mind as to when he is going to answer as he does to answer, it is no wonder we are having to wait.

WINE INDUSTRY

Mr Wildman: I wonder if I could ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food regarding the grape and wine industry adjustment program. In the name of fairness, could the minister explain why the provincial government is not prepared to accept the approach of the federal government? The federal government has agreed to review the entitlement of the group of grape growers that has been denied eligibility for the program on the basis of arbitrary retroactive dates. The federal government is prepared to accept an independent tribunal to make the final decision. It is such an equitable approach; why is the provincial government not prepared to take the same approach?

Hon Mr Ramsay: I am happy to have the opportunity to inform the member that he is misinformed on this and that the federal government has agreed that we use the Office of the Ombudsman of Ontario, the offices that any Ontarian can go to to redress what he may perceive as being a grievance against the government. The federal government agrees with our department that going to the Ombudsman to take a look at this particular grievance would be the correct course of action.

Mr Kormos: I have a supplementary. The problem is that the grape growers of Niagara have been shafted again and again and again, and now the screw is finally being put to them by the provincial Minister of Agriculture and Food.

The fact is that he is wrong about what the federal government is prepared to do. The fact is that the provincial government is refusing to live up to its obligations under the grape acreage reduction program. This provincial government, notwithstanding that the grape growers, who have worked long and hard in their fields, are prepared to go to alternative dispute resolution, is saying no.

Perhaps the Minister of Agriculture and Food should consult with the Attorney General and understand that this government is displaying a commitment to alternative dispute resolution that the minister denies to those grape growers of the Niagara Peninsula, who will be forced off their farms. Why will he not permit them to use alternative dispute resolution? Why is he forcing them into litigation?

Hon Mr Ramsay: I would like to inform the member that this government does not shrink in its responsibilities, especially towards tender fruit and grapes, and I would like to inform the member that we have entered, as the member knows, into a tripartite agreement and $39 million have been spent on the grape producers in the Niagara area; $17.5 million came from our ministry. Nearly $31 million has gone to growers as part of our acreage reduction program. I think the grape growers have been well served down there. They have a dispute on how the program was designed, and I think that the Ombudsman’s Office would be the appropriate place to take that dispute to.

HIGH TECHNOLOGY

Mr Sterling: As the Premier may know, there are some problems with the high-technology industry in the Ottawa-Carleton area. Representing the city of Kanata, I have a very high interest in that whole area. What is the Premier doing to address the problem where there are some layoffs occurring in the area and the stock prices for high-tech companies are falling? What is the government doing to address the problem?

Hon Mr Peterson: I know if my honourable friend thinks through his question, he will realize that no government controls stock prices, and I cannot expect that he honestly would believe that a government should be involved in manipulating stock prices for any company, let alone high technology.

Let me just take the member back though a moment. I think that if my honourable friend was fair in analysing the things this government has done, there is no government in this country that has given more support in the high-technology area. It has been a fundamental part of our agenda. The Premier’s Council, the centres of excellence and the technology funds were heralded, indeed plagiarized, by other governments in this country to try to get the industry moving.

I could give my friend endless details of that if he would so choose, but I think that if my honourable friend is truly interested in this subject, as he appears to be, then he would want to study the actions of the government so he could explain them. He would be very proud of what is happening.

Mr Sterling: I think the Premier does me a disservice to indicate that in some ways I was thinking that he should manipulate the stock market. Of course what I meant by that, as everybody else knows, is that the stock market falls when profits fall within that industry and it is a general indication of an ailment.

Denzil Doyle, who is a consultant in the area and a former president of Digital Equipment of Canada Ltd, said that the main problem is a difficulty in financing new businesses. What we need is some good, hard-nosed money in the Ottawa area. In that the government is competing in the new global economy, and that six of the 12 recommendations went to the financing of new high-tech businesses, when is the Premier going to take some action on those particular recommendations?

Hon Mr Peterson: Again, I do not want to be unkind to my friend, but where has he been in the last three years? He is not familiar -- we today have the most attractive rates.

Mr Sterling: Have you read them?

Hon Mr Peterson: I have read them and we have implemented them. The member is not familiar with this. Let me just take a moment to help out my friend. He should look at the capital cost allowance that has been brought in by the Treasurer. He should look at the research-and-development superallowance that was brought in in the last budget.

I know my friend does not know this, or he would not ask me this question because he would not want to display his lack of knowledge about a very important area in his own constituency. We have the most attractive rates for new manufacturing investment in this country today, and better than a lot of our competitors in other states. This is because of direct initiatives of this Treasurer that have gone on following the reports of the Premier’s Council.

I think my friend would want to do his research, look at the recommendations of the Premier’s Council and see how they have indeed been important in formulating government policy. These are subjects I have spoken on many times. My honourable friend knows of our deficit in the high-technology area. We are importing roughly $8 billion in high-technology goods today. One can make the simple argument that we are exporting yesterday’s technology and importing tomorrow’s. We have a structural problem in this country. Our initiative of $1 billion through the Premier’s Council is probably the most important shot in the arm that this country has had in this particular area.

The Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

Hon Mr Peterson: What I think the member might want to do, because I know he is very close to the federal Conservatives and the federal government -- I know he supports all their policies -- is look at what they have done and the promises made there as opposed to the performance delivered, because I think Mr Doyle understands even better than my honourable friend --

The Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

ACCESS TO PROFESSIONS AND TRADES

Mrs E. J. Smith: My question is for the Minister of Citizenship. I would like to inquire of the minister regarding a particular problem that I often see in my constituency office and that I am sure other people see in their offices too.

Several people who come to my office are recent immigrants from other countries. They have brought with them to our country training in their own trades and professions. They have the certificates and degrees that prove their abilities and their expertise in these areas. They come to our province, which needs these abilities and this expertise, but find that their degrees or certificates are in no way recognized. This puts them in a very difficult position, not only of not being able to contribute, but not being able to properly support their families. What is the ministry hoping to do about this?

The problem, I believe, is magnified when we appreciate that studies have been done in the United States and in the United Kingdom which indicate that up to six to eight per cent of a country’s gross national product might be lost due to discriminatory employment practices. As a result, this government saw early on the priority of tearing down the barriers to ensure access to people regardless of racial or cultural backgrounds or where they studied.

What is important here is that the task force report, which I tabled late in 1989, had 104 recommendations and the government is currently focused on implementation, determining the most effective way of implementing some or all of these recommendations so that people who are foreign-trained, who have the ability and who are qualified can have easy access, like every other Ontarian.

Mrs E. J. Smith: For many of the people I see, who are supporting families and trying to plan their lives, it is a matter of time -- to know how to plan the weeks and months ahead. This is now the beginning of April. Is there any hope that any of these people will find a more rich and ready climate by the fall of this year?

Hon Mr Wong: With respect to the specifics, the Ministry of Citizenship is currently co-ordinating a nine-member inter-ministerial working group which is focused on how best to implement some or all of these recommendations, most of which pertain to the provincial government. In addition, we have sent out over 700 letters to specific stakeholders to make sure that we get their input on the best way of implementing these recommendations. Further, I hope to be visiting a number of cities across Ontario in order to discuss once again with the various stakeholders the best ways to implement the themes and initiatives that were proposed by the task force to the government.

So in the end analysis, let me say to the honourable member that by the fall, hopefully, we will have an effective working paper or plan that will discuss how this can be implemented, not only by the government but also by the professions and trades and other people who can help make this work.

INQUESTS

Mr Mackenzie: I have a question for the Solicitor General. On 8 November 1988 Mr G. Mertins was fatally injured at the Campbell Red Lake mine. Can the minister tell this House why an inquest was just recently ordered after a further death in this mine, on 6 February?

Hon Mr Offer: In response to the particular question, I cannot be specific in dealing with the particular matter. For that, I will certainly undertake to provide further information.

In dealing with the whole question of inquests in general, I would like to indicate that under the Coroners Act it is the responsibility of coroners to call inquests when they want to investigate matters around the death of an individual, to deal with the who, what, when and where of any one particular incident. In dealing with the actual calling of an inquest, they want to make certain that any potential investigation has been completed. When an investigation has been fully completed, that is when the coroner, in the usual case, makes his decision.

Dealing with the particular question which the member has brought forward, being specific as to one particular inquest, certainly I will undertake to get specific information on that. But in dealing generally with the whole calling of inquests, that is a matter for the local coroner to determine. He makes that determination in dealing with the actual questions as to whether it is necessary, dealing with the who, what, when and where of any one particular incident and that the investigation has been fully completed.

Mr Mackenzie: Surely the responsible minister is aware that the law calls for an inquest in all mining fatalities. Is this minister prepared to order an inquest into individual industrial fatalities as well and ensure, whether it is workers in mining or in industry, that they do not have to wait over 17 months, as occurred in this case, for an inquest which might very well have provided answers that would have prevented the death of Mr Barnhardt in February of this year in the same mine?

Hon Mr Offer: Let us be perfectly clear that I am aware of the provisions under the Coroners Act. I am also aware, and the member will be aware, that in some instances the calling of an inquest is an automatic type of call but the actual holding of the inquest is not, under the Coroners Act. That can only take place after a full investigation has been completed. I would expect that in this case that is the situation. As such, an inquest has been properly and accordingly called.

CLOSING OF CAMPGROUNDS

Mr Runciman: My question is for the Minister of Tourism and it has to do with the decision by the St Lawrence Parks Commission to close a number of camping grounds along the St Lawrence system. I am sure he is aware that the commission announced this decision as a fait accompli. There was no effort to talk to municipalities in the region to discuss the possibility of closure and other ways and means of perhaps making the commission’s operations more efficient. In fact, the municipalities and the people who have utilized these campgrounds for a number of years have been told this is what is going to happen.

I am wondering if the minister has been made aware of this, if he supports the decision by the St Lawrence Parks Commission, or if he is prepared to review it to see if indeed we cannot have those parks open this year and carry on with some sort of public discussion to see if there are not other answers out there available.

Hon Mr Black: The member is quite correct in saying that the St Lawrence Parks Commission did in fact make a decision to reduce the operation of a certain number of campgrounds along the St Lawrence this year.

I would first of all tell the member -- he is well aware of this fact -- that the St Lawrence Parks Commission is made up of representatives of communities from across eastern Ontario. As such, those people on that commission are well versed in the concerns and the needs of the area.

He would also be aware that the St Lawrence Parks Commission has been the subject of a number of studies by committees of this Legislature. I think the member would be aware of the recommendations of those committees, that it be a cost-effective operation. The fact is that the parks in question have not been drawing large numbers of visitors during the past two or three seasons.

In an attempt to make the operation of the St Lawrence Parks Commission more cost-effective -- and the member is always concerned about the way in which government dollars are being spent, and I compliment him for that -- the decision has been made to try to find ways to make the operation of campgrounds more effective along the St Lawrence.

MEMBER FOR BEACHES-WOODBINE

Mr Philip: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: It is the 72nd birthday of the member for Beaches-Woodbine. I am sure that all members would want to wish her a happy birthday.

[Applause]

The Deputy Speaker: That was under standing order 72, of course.

TABLING OF INFORMATION

Mr McLean: On a point of personal privilege, Mr Speaker: I have had questions in Orders and Notices since last June for the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. They have not been answered and there are several other questions on the order paper in the same position. Why will the government not complete its business?

The Deputy Speaker: I am sure the minister will take note of that comment, that point.

PETITIONS

CHILDREN’S SERVICES

Mr Brandt: I have a petition signed by approximately 135 residents of Sarnia and area. It is a lengthy petition; I will not read it. It deals with Ontario’s Child and Family Services Act and points out concerns that these individuals have with respect to services being provided to children.

WASTE DISPOSAL

Mr Brandt: Second, I have a petition signed by 50 residents of Sarnia and area. This petition deals with the possibility of Metropolitan Toronto garbage being shipped into the township of Plympton. These residents indicate their opposition to such a proposal.

EMPLOYER HEALTH TAX

Mr Brandt: Finally, I have a petition signed by approximately 170 residents of Sarnia and area who request that the Employer Health Tax Act be amended to prohibit employers from passing on to employees the costs associated with the implementation of this tax and, further, that any employers who have made deductions from employee paycheques with respect to this matter be required to reimburse such employees.

INTRODUCTION OF BILL

FLAG DAY, 1990 / JOUR DU DRAPEAU NATIONAL DE 1990

M. Wildman propose la première lecture du projet de loi 128, Loi portant sur le Jour du drapeau national.

Mr Wildman moved first reading of Bill 128,

An Act respecting Flag Day.

La motion est adoptée.

Motion agreed to.

Mr Wildman: The purpose of the bill is to establish Flag Day as a public holiday to commemorate the national flag of Canada. Flag Day would be observed on the second Monday of February each year. Since this is the 25th anniversary, in 1990, of the choice of the red maple leaf flag as our flag, which represents our commitment to Canada’s duality and unity and diversity, we should reaffirm and celebrate this commitment. At a time when the unity of Canada and our constitutional relationships are uncertain, I believe that the acceptance of my proposal for a Flag Day holiday would demonstrate Ontario’s commitment to Canada.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

OPPOSITION DAY

Mr Brandt moved opposition day motion 1:

That, in the opinion of this House, while reaffirming its support for the provision of French-language services where numbers warrant, while confirming that the French Language Services Act, 1986 was not intended to apply to municipalities, recognizes the elevated tensions and misunderstandings which have developed over language issues throughout this province, and therefore calls upon the government of Ontario to establish, as soon as possible, an all-party committee of the Legislature to travel across the province to receive public input on the administrative guidelines, regulations, and implementation of the French Language Services Act, 1986 (Bill 8).

M. Brandt propose la motion 1 sur le jour réservé a l’opposition:

Mr Eves: It is certainly an honour for me to have the position of leading off in this debate. I consider it to be an extremely important matter in the province of Ontario today. I think that this is a debate where partisan politics have no place, quite frankly. I think that it is an issue that is surely above and beyond partisan politics. I do not think there is any controversy around Bill 8 and the basic principles enunciated by Bill 8, and indeed by governments in the province of Ontario long before there was a French Language Services Act, which, as we all know, came into being in 1986.

Our party has been consistent in its position with respect to this legislation ever since it was passed in 1986.

Indeed, the member for Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry is quoted, in a letter of 7 October 1987, as stating that the fears and suspicions surrounding the act’s implementation -- he stressed the real need for public examination of the French Language Services Act and he expressed the real need for this act to be explained to the people of Ontario and, perhaps more important, for the need of a legislative committee which could examine the government’s implementation plan of Bill 8 in light of confusion and concerns which he was hearing by concerned citizens throughout the province of Ontario.

This letter was sent to the Premier of the province of Ontario, as I said, on 7 October 1987. The Premier’s reply came forth on 22 December of that year rejecting the idea of a legislative committee dealing with the French Language Services Act.

He was quoted, in part, in the letter as saying, “Any misgivings are based on a misunderstanding of the objectives and the impact of the legislation, aided by a deliberate campaign of misinformation by those who are opposed to any reasonable language policy in Ontario.” He went on to say that the “act requires careful and sensitive implementation” and that “greater public awareness of the French Language Services Act is the most effective means of combating unwarranted fears about its effects on individuals.”

I would certainly agree with the last two statements made by the Premier in that letter, the two quotes I have just read. It indeed does require careful and sensitive implementation, and I think greater public awareness is probably one of the most effective means of combating the unwarranted fears and the misunderstandings that have arisen about the implementation of Bill 8, as it has commonly become known in this province. However, I do not think there can be any doubt that there indeed are some misunderstandings and misgivings about Bill 8, or at least about its implementation by the people of Ontario.

I quote the minister responsible for francophone affairs, who is in the assembly this afternoon and for whom, I might add, I have nothing but a great deal of admiration. I quote from an

article in the Toronto Star on 10 February this year: “‘We begin by looking back and saying yes, undoubtedly there were things perhaps we ought to have done,’ said Charles Beer; minister for francophone affairs.” I quite agree, and I am not saying that in a negative or critical sense, but I am trying to communicate that I feel now that, with the extent of the fears and misunderstandings out there, the only way I can see, as a member of this assembly, to clear up those fears is to hear from members of the public.

Over the last few weeks there has been much debate, there has been much conversation and there has been one meeting that I am aware of among the three leaders and among the three parties. It was hoped that there could be an all-party resolution that was put forward. We have made it known since the beginning -- as I have said, since 7 October 1987 -- that our position in this matter was quite clear.

One of the principles that we feel very strongly about in our party is an all-party committee of the Legislature to hear from the people of Ontario about the concerns that they have with respect to the implementation of this legislation. That is not something that has just come about in the last few days or weeks; it is something that we have been on record about since 7 October 1987. It is something that was confirmed by the minority report or opinion of our party in a committee with respect to this issue in 1989 and it is something that we have consistently spoken in favour of.

I would seriously hope that all members of this Legislature, whatever their political stripe, will be voting in favour of this resolution this afternoon.

I do not see anything in this resolution that could possibly be offensive to any member of this assembly. It confirms the principles about French-language services where numbers warrant, the principles that have been in place by various governments in this province for many years. It confirms the fact, which has been misunderstood, that the French Language Services Act, 1986, was never intended to apply to municipalities except on a voluntary basis.

To ask for an all-party committee to travel the province to hear those concerns and to try to explain to the people of the province, perhaps in a more effective way than has been done to date, exactly what this bill is about and exactly how it is to be implemented -- I do not see how any member of the assembly could possibly vote against any of those things. We are not asking and we do not presume that this committee would start to travel immediately. It has been a known practice in this Legislature for many years that select committees of the Legislature only sit and travel when the House is not in session. It is the intention of this resolution.

I have heard there are apparently some concerns by some members of the assembly that this might confuse the Meech Lake issue, which has to be approved by 23 June 1990. That is a red herring if I have ever heard one. This is a very important issue. We are not confusing the two issues. We propose that this committee would travel during the summer months, after 23 June 1990, and anybody who has been around this place knows that that is the practice for select committees of this Legislature, unless agreed upon by all three parties. I say to my friend the honourable Leader of the Opposition, it does not say that it will commence travelling immediately.

Mr B. Rae: That is not what it says. I’ll read the words.

Mr Eves: I am sure the leader of the official opposition will have an opportunity and will participate in this debate. I certainly hope that the Premier of the province will be participating in this debate, because I think it is probably one of the most important debates that has taken place in this Legislature in the last period of time.

I certainly hope it is not the intention of any member of this assembly to find some excuse or some fabricated reason for not voting for a resolution which is based on good intent, which has been consistent with what our party has asked for and stood for with respect to French-language services since the act was passed.

This resolution was made on the basis of what our party has enunciated time and time again and it is based on, I think, the principles of French-language services where numbers warrant in the province of Ontario. But there can be no doubt in anybody’s mind, I do not think, that there certainly are some misunderstandings and misgivings, and those should be cleared up.

I think the most effective way of clearing them up is to hear from the people, to communicate with the people, to have some dialogue with the people and to try to have this situation where the people of Ontario do indeed understand what Bill 8 says. If there are problems with its implementation, and there undoubtedly are some throughout the province or we would not have the criticisms and the comments that we have had from various parts of the province of Ontario, then those should be dealt with in a positive sense, not in a negative sense, so that we can all continue on with the tradition of which we have been so proud in this province of Ontario in the future.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Breaugh): Just before we continue with the debate, I would remind members that the time has been allocated equally and that the clocks will be kept by the table officers.

Mr Grandmaître: I am pleased to hear the member for Parry Sound saying that his total caucus agrees with Bill 8 and that it wants to reaffirm the position of Bill 8. I am just wondering how come --

Hon Mr Black: All of them?

Mr Eves: All of them.

Mr Grandmaître: All of them? I am pleased to hear this. I have read in the newspaper that the member for Leeds-Grenville wrote to the mayor or the council of Sault Ste Marie congratulating them on their unilingual position. I am very surprised, but I am pleased to speak on the leader of the third party’s motion. The leader of the third party and I have been long-time friends, and I know exactly where he stands, not only on Bill 8 but on French issues, and I want to assure this House that my comments will be non-partisan.

I feel that I have been in court for the last three and a half years. I have fought for Bill 8 and now I am facing the same jurors, the same jury, and I am still pleading not guilty. I do not think it is a crime in this province to speak French and to require French services. Some people have said that it was a crime, but I am here to defend myself and I am here to defend the government I was representing when I was the minister responsible for francophone affairs.

I would like to make it very clear what Bill 8 is all about. Bill 8 only contains 17 pages and I would like, with your permission, Mr Speaker, to read its

preamble. This is what Bill 8 is all about:

“Whereas the French language is an historic and honoured language in Ontario and recognized by the Constitution as an official language in Canada; and

whereas in Ontario the French language is recognized as an official language in the courts and in education; and

whereas the Legislative Assembly recognizes the contribution of the cultural heritage of the French-speaking population and wishes to preserve it for future generations; and

whereas it is desirable to guarantee the use of the French language in institutions of the Legislature and the government of Ontario, as provided in this act.”

I agree with the member from Parry Sound that it excludes municipalities and I have said it on a number of occasions. Yet I remember after second reading some members of this House wanted to include municipalities, but we thought it was so important that the government show leadership and our own committees and our own ministries would lead or would be leaders of Bill 8.

This is why we asked for three years for the implementation of Bill 8. The New Democrats approved or supported us in this approach. Yet members of the Conservative party wanted a two-year implementation program, if I can call it a program. At that time, I was successful in convincing them that a two-year period was too short. But the opposition members at that time were so eager to pass this bill that they wanted this bill to be in place in two years. Something has happened in Ontario, something has happened in Canada, and I do not know why they are changing their minds today.

I am very sorry that the member for Parry Sound is saying, “We all agree with the principle of the bill,” yet, “Take it around on a circus throughout the province. Let people bring down their anti-French opposition.” I think it is intolerable and I do not know why some members of the third party are acting that way today. Maybe it is to protect their own political future. I really do not know. I cannot answer this.

Mr Speaker, let me remind you, or maybe I do not have to remind you because you may have been part of the history that was made in this House -- not in 1968 when Mr Robarts started French services, but the francophone population is very grateful to Mr Robarts because I think in 1968 we were given the opportunity, we were very hopeful that the future governments of this province would react favourably to the needs of francophones.

Judicial and educational services and rights were guaranteed in the days of Mr Robarts and also in the days of Mr Davis. But in the days of Mr Davis these services were really privileges because at that time the government never wanted to enact these services into a law. Thank God that in 1985 a new government, with the alliance of the New Democratic Party and the Liberals, a real progressive conservative government came into place and a bill was passed in this House. Thank God for 1986.

After many months of thoughtful and careful crafting of this bill, it was introduced in this House for first reading, and I remember at the time that nobody spoke against Bill 8. I remember at second reading nobody spoke against Bill 8. In fact the opposition -- both opposition parties -- were very helpful in trying to improve the law by introducing amendments. But again I want to emphasize the fact that no one in this House spoke against Bill 8.

In fact we made history. For the first time in the province of Ontario the three leaders -- the member for London Centre, the member for York South and I think it was the member for Nipissing at the time who replaced Mr Grossman -- spoke French and we made history. Mr Miller also participated in French. So we were making history, and I am very, very proud of those moments.

What Bill 8, as I said, is all about is a recognition of the historical role that francophones have played in this province, and I am very surprised, after three years of implementation -- I know that this government, this law, is not perfect; nobody in this House is perfect. I think that Bill 8, after three years of implementation, of going around this province, asking people what they thought of Bill 8, asking municipalities -- at that time, as the members know, I was the Minister of Municipal Affairs and I wrote to 839 municipalities in this province, telling them about Bill 8.

I have met with AMO, and I must say that municipalities and AMO were very grateful that finally we were recognizing the French factor in the province of Ontario.

But after royal assent to this bill in 1986, a great number of things happened in this province, in Canada. A number of discontented and dissatisfied groups of so-called Canadians went on a campaign of misconceptions and misinterpretation of the law and sowed dissension in this province and right across Canada. Was it because of Bill 178 in the province of Quebec? Was it because of the Official Languages Act of the federal government? Or was it pure intolerance? I do not know.

Many municipalities were led to believe that bilingualism would be imposed on them after November 1989. Bill 8 spells out very clearly that municipalities are excluded but may offer French services through the Municipal Act. But again I do not expect municipal politicians to be perfect; nobody is perfect. They were led to believe a number of falsehoods and today we are faced with a number of criticisms and not only of Bill 8. More intolerance has cropped up against immigrants, visible minorities, our Jewish society and so on, and I am very disturbed about the intolerance that has been shown.

At the time the dissatisfied groups were going around the province trying to influence municipalities that were not in designated areas -- I realize that four or five municipalities in designated areas have identified themselves as unilingual, but I am just wondering why these people pick on innocent municipalities. Is it intolerance? I do not know.

The media at that time tried to pursue or challenge these groups to provide them with more facts on their accusations that people were losing their jobs. None of these accusations have ever reached the Office of the Ombudsman of Ontario. I cannot understand why they would not pursue this in front of the Ombudsman because these accusations were very, very serious.

For three years I have received some very nasty letters, but that is understandable, being a minister of the crown. I do not think ministers are immune to criticism.

I must say that I have tried to answer all the accusations of these crimes and that I should move to Quebec where I am from. I am proud to say that I was born in Ontario and I am a Franco-Ontarian. I am a Franco-Ontarian and I am very, very proud. If I have to move to Quebec to speak my language it will be a terrible day for this province and for Canada. Yet a candidate of the Progressive Conservative Party is saying that we should resolve all this intolerance, that francophones should move to Quebec and anglophones should live in the province of Ontario. Now they are saying that they are reaffirming their goodwill and their good intentions towards Bill 8.

I cannot accept this. I think the government has gone a long way to provide francophones and anglophones and members of this House with the opportunity of asking questions in the House. I am willing to answer any question.

Alors, en mai 1986, lors de la première lecture du projet de loi 8, j’étais satisfait de la réaction de la Chambre ; personne ne s’est opposé à la loi. À la deuxième lecture, je me souviens que l’ancien député de Cornwall m’avait affirmé et garanti la position du Parti conservateur, et je le crois encore aujourd’hui. Peut-être que ces gens-là étaient plus tolérants à ce moment-là, en 1986. II y a sûrement des choses qui sont survenues en Ontario et au Canada pour faire changer d’idée de certains députés du Parti conservateur, et je le regrette.

Je crois que nous devons aller de l’avant ; nous devons présenter la vraie image de l’Ontario. Nous voulons, comme Franco-Ontariens, participer au succès de cette province, non seulement du côté culturel, mais aussi du côté économique. Je crois qu’il est grandement temps, et non seulement pour les trois partis en Chambre, que tous les Ontariens prennent conscience une fois pour toutes de l’importance de l’unité d’une province, de l’unité d’un Canada.

Je crois que nous avons été généreux et responsables en désignant 6,2 pour cent de nos postes comme postes bilingues. Je crois que, sur un nombre de tout près de 90 000 employés, nous avons été très généreux.

Alors, je vais me rasseoir mais, par contre, j’aimerais garantir que je le fais, non pas parce que je suis entièrement satisfait. Je ne suis pas entièrement satisfait avec ce à quoi nous avons à faire face aujourd’hui avec cette résolution. Je suis satisfait qu’ils réaffirment la Loi 8 ; ça, je l’accepte. Mais, par contre, je ne pense pas que je devrais, trois ans et demi plus tard, me présenter devant la même cour et tenter d’expliquer la position des Franco-Ontariens et encore une fois dire : «Non, nous n’avons rien fait de mal.

Nous voulons simplement garantir que notre langue et notre culture soient préservés pour donner l’occasion et la chance à nos futures générations de pratiquer leur langue et de pratiquer leur culture.»

Je sais qu’un bon nombre de personnes voudraient faire des commentaires concernant cette résolution.

So I will conclude by asking myself questions again. Is it intolerance in this province? In 1986 I must say that I was very pleased with the atmosphere of this House. I thought intolerance was behind us. I am finding out in 1989-90, and in 1991, I am sure, we will be faced with intolerance again.

Mr Speaker, on your behalf, I would like to ask every member of this House to please be tolerant not only to francophones but to native people, immigrants, visible minority people and handicapped people. In other words, let’s be fair and let’s go on with Bill 8.

Mr B. Rae: I realize that other leaders have yet to speak, but I did want to participate in the debate and I did want to participate early on in order to make it very clear, first of all, that our party will not be supporting this resolution but that we are prepared to discuss other resolutions and we are prepared to discuss with members of the House the need for a continued dialogue.

I see no merit in our ducking this issue. I see no merit in our refusing to recognize that Canada -- I will be speaking of Canada as well as of Ontario -- is going through some very difficult times. One of the most difficult features of the times we are going through has to do with the growth of linguistic intolerance.

The member for Ottawa East has mentioned and has spoken very eloquently about the nature of the challenges facing the country and facing the province. I do not want to add very much to what he had to say, except that I really do believe that the country’s capacity to survive very much depends on our willingness as Canadians to recognize not only the importance of tolerance, but also the importance of our continuing to recognize that this tolerance is not something vague and not simply a feeling, that it is based on our willingness to recognize certain rights and mutual obligations.

I want to go over some ground. I want to remind this House, as the member did earlier on, that we have reached where we are in terms of the provision of French-language services by a series of historic compromises and all-party agreements.

We have had an unhappy history in this province. There was a time when it was illegal to speak French in school. There was an edict brought down by a government -- I am not going to get into a partisan game about which government it was or which party it was; that is irrelevant -- that said you could not speak French in school. That became a cause célèbre in the Franco-Ontarian community in this province, a sense of outrage and a sense at the same time that this was a historic wrong that had to be erased.

So you have a community in this province that numbers in the hundreds of thousands, which has its own sense of identity, which has created its own schools, which has its own churches and service organizations, which has its own clubs, which has its own sense of itself, which has a stake in several institutions of higher learning in this province, which has contributed an enormous amount to the life of this province.

I am not speaking simply of Canada, but I am saying of Ontario that we have a French-language community in this province without which Ontario would be far poorer, and without which we would not have the rich and diverse place we have, and we should take pride in that.

We have come a distance. There was a time throughout the 1960s and the 1970s when the party in power, the Conservative Party, took steps, and they were significant steps. Premier Robarts took steps. Premier Davis took steps in terms of education, in terms of access to services in the courts and in terms of some administrative changes. He was not willing to confront the laws of the province because that was felt to be too disruptive.

I want to tell members that when I was first elected leader of the party, in the very first conversation I had in Premier Davis’s office I said to him: “There are two issues on which you will always find me willing to talk and willing to move ahead together. Those issues are separate education and the future of separate education, and the future of French-language education and French-language services in the province.” I said to him: “You can expect from us the toughest, most aggressive public opposition on every issue you want.

On those two issues, I don’t regard those issues as worthy of partisan debate and you will not find me playing partisan games with those issues.” I made that pledge to the Premier of the day eight years ago, I would say. I was elected in February 1982 and it was shortly after that point.

I believe that to be as true today as I believed it then. I believe that it is important for us to recognize that there are some emotions in this province that run so deep that to turn them into partisan issues is

an act of public irresponsibility of the highest order. I believed that then; I believe it now.

That does not mean issues cannot be discussed, and I want to make that very clear. I do not think there is anything in this province that should not be subject to a robust discussion, and I do not think governments are perfect with regard to any particular piece of legislation. I do not think we should err and say that it is taboo to even raise an issue or to discuss an issue if it is a controversial or difficult one.

But I do think that in discussing these things it is a question of how as leaders -- all of us are here in some sense as leaders -- we choose to discuss them. That is why, when the resolutions began to come with respect to the unilingual declarations from a number of municipalities, our caucus discussed them. I suggested on behalf of our caucus that it would be a good idea if the three party leaders got together and tried to formulate among ourselves a resolution that would reflect the mood of the House, not only with respect to Bill 8 because I do not think this debate is only about Bill 8.

People say, “It’s about Bill 8.” It is not just about Bill 8. It is a much bigger issue than that. It is in measure about Quebec. It is in measure about Meech Lake. It is in some measure about an identity that people feel they are losing. It is in measure a sense that Canada has changed in ways that a few Canadians -- I do not believe very many -- find so bewildering that they have to lash out and strike out at every change that they see taking place.

I suggested that not only in public; I suggested it as well in conversation with the leader of the Conservative Party and with the leader of the Liberal Party. When our caucus drafted what a resolution might look like, that resolution was presented by my House leader to the House leaders of the other two parties.

We did not have a meeting until last week. The first time the three leaders of the parties were able to get together was after the first week the House was in session, and members will recall that was the so-called McKenna week with respect to the proposals on Meech Lake. I had some personal problems that were well known in the House in terms of obligations I had to fulfil to members of my family and to friends who tragically died in a car accident. We all attended together the funeral of the member for Ottawa South. In the following week the House was back in session, we were in full gear and it was proposed that we have a meeting last week.

That meeting took place at around 5:45 in the evening. I went to that meeting assuming there was going to be a frank discussion among the three leaders about what a joint resolution might look like, what form it would take. As soon as I sat down at that meeting, the leader of the Conservative Party pulled out a piece of paper and said: “This is being deposited in a few moments. This is being debated as an opposition day. This is our position.”

I have done a lot of negotiating in my time -- some of it successfully, some of it not so successfully -- but I have always tried to be very straight when negotiating. My understanding of what that meeting was about was that we were going to discuss, without particular prejudice, without any particular lines being drawn in the sand, where we felt our caucuses were coming from and whether there was any possibility of our finding common ground.

I found that the Conservatives had already taken its position. There was no interest in negotiating anything. There was no concern about what the impact of the resolution might or might not be, whether there might not be another way of expressing a similar view, whether there might not be a slightly different way of expressing it or whether there might be a way of expressing a policy that we could all agree on.

I am not going to attribute any motive. I am only going to say that is not how I do my negotiating or how I expect to be dealt with by other party leaders. I did not appreciate being put in that particular kind of position and being told by the Conservatives: “There it is. Take it or leave it.”

On reflection, our caucus has decided to leave it. The reason is this. First of all, you cannot pass a resolution at this particular time in our history as a country without having some appreciation of where we are and what the impact of this resolution will be, not only on the rest of the province but on the rest of the country.

Is the very best and the very most we can say about what we have done, “We have done a little bit, but now let’s really focus on these problems that people have with Bill 8”? Is that really the best expression of the generosity of the people of Ontario? Is that the extent of our national vision while we are in the middle of a debate about the future of Canada itself? I do not think so. I fail to believe that really is the best we can do.

It is in that spirit that I went into that discussion last week saying, “Let’s try to work something out.” But that was not the way the third party wanted to do it. They wanted to have the debate exclusively on this subject and they wanted this to have the support of the other two parties. That is what they wanted. I am sorry, that is not the way we intend to play it.

We also think that the resolution that is passed by this House should be far more generous in its expression of support for the progress that we have made together in the provision of French-language services in Ontario. That is the kind of resolution that we have suggested.

The Supreme Court of Canada, just two weeks ago, came out with an enormously significant decision with respect to the management of education and the rights of the French-language minority to manage education, the implications of

section 23 of the Charter of Rights and how those rights are to be made real in the real world of provincial politics and of provincial administration.

The government of the day, it is fair to say, is in a state of some indecision with respect to the impact of that decision on how it is going to proceed. I do not think I am unveiling any terrible weaknesses on the side of the government when I say that the Supreme Court of Canada’s decision faces it with a decision.

If I were them, before I entered into any decision with respect to a change in or an expansion of Bill 75 -- which, for the benefit of those who perhaps are watching or listening, is the bill which deals with the question of the administration of French-language schools -- I would suggest it would be in the government’s interests, and it is in the public’s interests, for us to consult with the public before we proceeded.

Let’s also reflect on what the possibilities will be after 23 June. There are, I would suggest, possibly three. One is that Meech Lake is down the tube. The second is that Meech Lake is resolved and is passed. The third is that there is some sort of even more ambiguous possibility that an effort will be made to declare some sections and to move ahead on some ground. I happen to believe that is fraught with even more uncertainty and more problems.

Je veux dire que c’est un temps difficile pour notre province et pour le pays et que nous voulons, franchement, encourager une discussion constructive. Nous avons même, je dirais, comme chef de parti, et comme l’ont tous les chefs politiques de tous les partis, l’obligation d’encourager le sens de débat, débat qui est positif et où les choses sont débattues avec franchise mais, en même temps, de façon positive, tout en clarifiant la situation ; et où on espère que la raison aura toujours la possibilité de s’exprimer, au lieu de seulement l’émotion négative ou le sentiment d’exclusivité.

C’est pourquoi nous avons proposé une résolution qui dit clairement que nous reconnaissons le fait que nous sommes au milieu d’un débat difficile et constitutionnel. Oui, on se lève le matin et on se rend compte que oui, on n’est pas sur la lune; on n’est pas n’importe où. Les résolutions qui seront passées ici auront un impact sur le reste du pays.

En même temps, nous disons que nous reconnaissons, avec bonne volonté, le fait que la dualité linguistique est une réalité du pays canadien. En même temps, nous insistons sur le fait que nous avons réalisé des progrès en éprouvant le sens de compromis entre les trois partis et en réalisant un consensus profond entre les trois partis.

En même temps, nous reconnaissons qu’après le 23 juin, qui est, comme le savent les députés, le jour magique pour l’accord du Lac Meech, le comité spécial de la réforme constitutionnelle de notre province aura non seulement l’occasion, mais l’obligation de discuter non seulement de la question des services, non seulement de la question de la Loi 8, mais de questions beaucoup plus larges que celles-là, comme la question des relations entre la majorité et la minorité en ce qui concerne l’éducation et aussi la question des services. Ce ne sera pas une question facile mais ce débat est nécessaire.

C’est une discussion nécessaire que nous ne pouvons pas éviter. Je dirais que c’est une mauvaise idée de l’éviter.

C’est pourquoi nous disons que non, nous n’allons pas appuyer la motion des conservateurs, mais que oui, nous avons une motion de notre part que nous allons proposer à la Chambre un autre jour.

J’espère que les autres partis, naturellement, pourront appuyer cette résolution comme une résolution qui reflète beaucoup mieux, je crois, que la motion des conservateurs le vrai sens de cette Chambre et le vrai sens de cette province face à ce problème historique et à cette réalité historique de notre province, la dualité linguistique et les tensions que, de temps en temps, nous voyons dans les communautés à cause de cette réalité.

There is no such thing as an ethnically homogeneous country in the world. There is no such thing as a linguistically homogeneous country anywhere. Canada will never be and can never be a linguistically homogeneous place, a place where only one language is spoken, a place where only one language is official. The idea that one could ever have such a Canada is simply absurd. It requires that we make a desert of every difference, every variety and everything that gives us personality and gives us identity. It is an absurd notion.

I would say that with respect to Ontario, we are making progress in terms of recognizing the extraordinary diversity that is in the province. One important aspect of this diversity is the fact that the French-language minority in Canada has a strong presence in Ontario. I believe that the laws of Ontario properly should reflect that. That is why I supported Bill 8 and that is why our caucus supported it. We supported it as an expression of the fact that to preserve the rights of a minority and to recognize those rights in terms of access to services is important to do.

So I say to members -- and I have taken a little longer than I perhaps had intended, but I hope I have the indulgence of my caucus and the House in doing so -- that we enter into this debate in a spirit of wanting to find some common ground. I am sorry that there were such significant misunderstandings, apparently, in term