Manitoba Hansard — 9 October 2007 (Sitting 16B, 39th Legislature, 1st Session)

39-1-16b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIX No. 16B – 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, October 9, 2007

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

985 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, October 9, 2007 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 3–The Healthy Child Manitoba Act Hon. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister of Healthy Living): I move, seconded by the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern A ffairs (Mr. Lathlin), that Bill 3, The Healthy Child Manitoba Act;

Loi sur la stratégie "Enfants en santé Manitoba," now be read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Irvin-Ross: I'm proud to re-introduce a bill that sets out in formal legislation or strategy, to work across government departments and with community partners, to put children and families first. Bill 3 is based on our belief that all sectors must work together to support families and parents as they raise their children to reach their fullest potential. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 7–The Insurance Amendment Act Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Mackintosh), that Bill 7, The Insurance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les assurances, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to introduce this bill today. This bill modernizes The Insurance Act in order to improve governance requirements for Manitoba insurers, provide more authority to the superintendent and the insurance councils, to deal with unlicensed activities and update provisions for consistency with other jurisdictions. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Provincial Trunk Highway 2–Glenboro Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: As a result of high traffic volumes in the region, there have been numerous accidents and near misses along Provincial Trunk High way 2, near the village of Glenboro, leading to serious safety concerns for motorists. The provincial government has refused to construct turning lanes off PTH 2 into the village of Glenboro and on to Golf Course Drive, despite the fact that the number of businesses along PTH 2 have increased greatly in recent years.

We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to consider implementing a speed zone on Provincial Trunk Highway 2 adjacent to the village of Glenboro. This petition is signed by Earl Malyon, Steve Collins, Armand Vallotton and many, many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read, they are deemed to be received by the House. Provincial Nominee Program Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

The background to this petition is as follows: Immigration is critically important to the future of our province, and the 1998 federal Provincial Nominee Program is the best immigration program that Manitoba has ever had. The current government needs to recognize that the backlog in processing PNP applications is causing additional stress and anxiety for would-be immigrants and their families and friends here in Manitoba.

The current government needs to recognize the unfairness in its current policy on who qualifies to be an applicant, more specifically, by not allowing professionals such as health care workers to be able to apply for PNP certificates in the same way a computer technician would be able to.

986 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Premier (Mr. Doer) and his government to recognize and acknowledge how important immigration is to our province by improving and strengthening the Provincial Nominee Program. Mr. Speaker, this is signed by D. de Leon, Jay de Leon and Jay Cruz and many, many other fine Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to table the following reports: the Annual Progress Report for the Canada-Manitoba Economic Partnership Agreement 2006-2007. In addition, the Annual Report for the Manitoba Development Corporation. I'm also pleased to table the Annual Report for the Manitoba Opportunities Fund Limited. Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the 2006-2007 Annual Report of the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council and the 2006-2007 Annual Report of the Department of Labour and Immigration. Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to table the Annual Report 2006-2007, Manitoba Education, Citizenship and Youth. Hon. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister of Healthy Living): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Healthy Child Manitoba Annual Report 2006-2007, as well as the Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat Annual Report 2006-2007. Hon. Christine Melnic k (Minister of Water Stewardship): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2007-2008 Departmental Expenditure Estimates Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the Department of Water Stewardship.

ORAL QUESTIONS Location of Hydro Power Line UNESCO World Heritage Site Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Pr emier (Mr. Doer), from some time before the election campaign in May until last week, made his decision on the west-side detour, the centrepiece of his political legacy. He's compared his decision on this issue to the establishment of Assiniboine Park and to the building of the floodway.

He's made this decision without regard to the finances of the province, without regard to the fact that he's going to leave a legacy of massive debt to future generations and that he's making a decision that in the end will damage Manitoba's environment. Now, I know, Mr. Speaker, and his minister made it clear last week in the Winnipeg Free Press that the NDP does not believe that financial impact should be considered when government decisions are made. But I do want to say that we disagree that financial impacts and future generations of Manitobans must be considered.

Now, one of the key reasons the Premier's given for the decision to go with the far longer west-side route is his desire to see a successful UNESCO World Heritage site designation, which is something that we commend. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the Premier didn't research whether it would make more sense to pursue both an east-side power line and a UNESCO designation for Manitoba.

Professor Bryan Schwartz, who is Manitoba's leading constitutional lawyer, has prepared an opinion that says that not only are the goals of an east-side power line and a UNESCO World Heritage site compatible, but from UNESCO's perspective, it may even be desirable to run the line down the east side of Manitoba from an economic and environmental and a social perspective, Mr. Speaker.

So, in light of the fact that the leading constitutional lawyer in Manitoba is taking the position and has offered an opinion that both a UNESCO site and an east-side line are not only compatible but desirable from the perspective of the economics and the environment of our province, will the Premier today commit to doing a U-turn on his position and do the right thing for future generations of Manitobans? * (13:40) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I will check to see if the expert cited by the member opposite is in fact employed by people on the east side that are proposing ownership of a line, but I want to double check that point. Having said that, there are experts in Parks Canada. There were about 125 proposals that have been submitted to Parks Canada, and the UNESCO World Heritage site of the spectacular area east of

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 987 Lake Winnipeg on the boreal forest was listed in the top 10 under their recommendation. So there's going to be lots of opinions on this issue and lots of experts that can be cited. There's no question, Mr. Speaker. We've been honest in the election campaign. We said the east side would be a, quote, cheaper route, because it's a direct line, if you could ever build it. We also stated there were serious challenges with the east side and with the boreal forest, with the UNESCO World Heritage site.

The west side was a longer route, but it was a route that had much more developed areas, 90 years of history of developments on the west side: mining, highways, existing transmission lines, other industrial developments, communities on the west side. We've been very clear in the election campaign. We said to the people of Manitoba our belief is, our judgment is based on the environment, based on people that we've had meetings with in First Nations, based on the absolute spectacular area of the east side called the boreal forest.

And also because of our customers, who, the major customers in United States who are subject to regulatory and democratic processes, that we felt that for purposes of reliability, the preferable route was the west side. We said that in the election campaign. I remember in the CBC debate the member opposite was in favour of the east side, we were opposed to it, and the Liberals didn't have any position. Nothing has changed, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Without commenting on the Liberal position, which we have yet to ascertain as well, Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to say that the Premier talks about concern for the boreal forest when he's talking out of one side of his mouth. But when he was talking out of the other side of his mouth during the campaign and announcing his down payment on the east-west power corridor to run through Ontario, when he was going to get out the chain saw and cut through hundreds of kilometres of boreal forest through Ontario, cutting through territories traditionally occupied by Aboriginal people, through northwestern Ontario, it highlights the hypocrisy of the position that he's adopted.

The Premier knows that there is currently development on the east side , there are winter roads that exist on the east side, there are three transmission lines that exis t on the east side, and so he's decided to plough ahead, leaving a half-billion dollar debt to future generations of Manitobans. He's decided to plough ahead, wasting precious clean energy, energy th at could be the equivalent to Manitoba of what oil and gas is to Alberta and Saskatchewan, Mr. Speaker, and he's going to waste it by allowing it to leak out of the lines by running it down the west side, giving up the chance to displace coal.

We've got experts saying there's an opportunity to run the line down the east side as well as the UNESCO site, experts such as Elijah Harper, the former NDP MLA and member of their caucus, chiefs on the east side of the lake, callers who have called in from Poplar River to tell us about the crushing poverty in that community and on that side of Lake Winnipeg, Mr. Speaker. Now, I just want to ask the Premier if he would, rather than ploughing ahea d with an ill-conceived, put on the blinders and plough ahead with the loopy west-side route, Mr. Speaker, why won't he keep an open mind?

Why won't he pursue the alternative of a UNESCO site and an east-side power line in much the same way as the Kluane National Park, which is a UNESCO site, built the Alaska Highway right up the side of the park so that people could get access to it. Why won't he do the right thing for future generations of Manitobans, Mr. Speaker, do a U-turn, reconsider his position, and do what's right in terms of his legacy to future generations? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, unlike members opposite, we stated our view in the election campaign. We have stated our views completely and democratically from the year 2004 on.

We said that the west-side route was more expensive because, obviously, a more circuitous route is more expensive than a direct line. We were very much up front. But let me put it in perspective, Mr. Speaker. There are customers that Hydro relies on, and yes, I believe there's a greater op portunity for development with the UNESCO World Heritage site for the people of Manitoba. I believe it's a great, great advantage that we have on the east side, but there's also a reality. Now, members opposite wouldn't know anything about customer relations because they never sold a megawatt of power in the last 30 years.

All they did is mothball power. They didn't sell any power. There are customers, the biggest customer we have is the state of Minnesota, Xcel, the state of Wisconsin, and other states connected to our power line. Mr. Speaker, we know the issue of cost because the issue of cost is a legitimate issue to raise, but we

988 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 sell on average $600 million of power every year to the Xcel power grid. Sales were developed with a vision of our government in the past. That is half the cost. Potentially, the maximum half-cost of the transmission line going around the west side. I want to say to people opposite: If they're not aware of Hydro transmission projects and Hydro sales being cancelled with customer pressure in United States, they should start with the state of New York and the cancellation of the Great Whale Project by the people that put pressure on the customers.

We have to pay attention not only to the advantages for Manitoba of preserving the boreal forest and UNESCO World Heritage site, but also the costs of not being able to sell into places like Minnesota. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, the Premier has the history completely wrong. Pressure was applied in the case of the New York power sale, consultations were entered into with the James Bay Cree, arrangements were made, the project was built and people in those communities are now benefiting from that project. Mr. Speaker, the Premier also talks about pressure.

He may be aware that at the end of last week, there were chiefs in Manitoba raising concerns about the west-side power line prepared to go to the United States to make their case about the lack of consultation by his government with respect to their unilateral, ill-considered decision to run a line down the west side of the province. So, if we've got opposition on the east side, we've got opposition on the west side, what does the Premier do? He announces one day, we're going to make a power sale to the east, announces the next day, so, we're going to send our lines to the west, Mr. Speaker.

What kind of loony, NDP thinking is that? I'd ask the Premier if he would get the facts right. Minnesota is an important customer, Mr. Speaker. There are privatel y owned power utilities that have entered into contracts to buy from Manitoba. There's a responsibility and a regulatory process for Hydro to provide information about what's happening with claims. That process was built in because of horrendous flooding and the impacts of flooding in northern Manitoba. We're talking about something completely different here.

Rather than allowing rhetoric to cloud the issue in the United States, why not go there with the facts, explain what everybody in this province knows to be true, which is the east side is better financially, it's better environmentally, it's better for everybody involved, it's better for future generations. He is so far wrong on all the facts in this issue, and I know he said last week he was concerned that if he changed positions we'd accuse him of flip- flopping. Well, the fact is, he's flip-flopped 38 times in the past eight years on major issues. Why not make it 39, Mr. Speaker. * (13:50) Mr. Doer: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite just uses misinformation to try to create some kind of argument. We've been very clear that a straight line is cheaper than a circuitous line. We've said that all along. The member opposite was one of the first ones to object to a power line that was proposed by the Conservatives coming through the constituency of Springfield. So he actually makes our case. No matter where a power line is proposed to go, it's going to be controversial; it's going to be opposed. Just look at exhibit A, the Member for Springfield (Mr.

Schuler) who objected to David Newman's proposal when we came into office. I also want to make a point. We had legal advice prior to the signing of the agreement with the east- side chiefs. It was clear that there is no veto in that process. Why does the member opposite allow for the

interpretation to be made over and over and over again that land-use planning can be vetoed by a process of consultation under

section 35 of the Constitution? Will he please get legal advice and tell the people the truth rather than try to misinform them as he's doing in the House every day, Mr. Speaker? Hollow Water Cottage Barricades Government's Response Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): This NDP government is no closer to resolving the issues at Hollow Water than it was last week or even the week before. The illegal barricades are still up and the chief of Hollow Water stated that they're not coming down anytime soon. So I ask the Minister of Justice or the Minister of Conservation (Mr.

Struthers) or perhaps any minister opposite who will give me an answer: When will the illegal barricades come down? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the member

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 989 opposite has the unfortunate habit of questioning the activities of the police. About a week ago, the member opposite– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: About a week ago, the member opposite complained about our gun amnesty program, saying that it would target innocent citizens, Mr. Speaker, and I was very pleased to be at a press conference this morning where over 400 guns were handed in, a process that not only the Member for Lac du Bonnet criticized, but his predecessor lacked– Some Honourable Members: Oh. Oh. Mr.

Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: The member may not have respect for the police and their decisions, but we certainly do on this side. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, I would venture that not one of those guns came from members of the Hells Angels, not one. Mr. Speaker, Chief Ian Bushie of Hollow Water was quoted as saying that residents of Hollow Water will not be sympathetic to cottage owners trying to get past the barricade and drain their water lines before they freeze. Those were the words of the chief of Hollow Water.

There will be millions of dollars in property damage if homeowners and cottage owners cannot access their property before freeze-up. So I ask the Minister of Justice: Who will pay for the millions of dollars of property damage that will result because of this government's inaction and incompetence? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, my colleague the Minister of Justice is absolutely right. We're not taking advice from members opposite when it comes to directing what the police do. They know their jobs. They do it best. We are, Mr.

Speaker, working with cottage owners to make sure that they have every opportunity to go in and take care of their cottages before a freeze-up and before there is damage done. We want to work with the cottage association to make sure that that happens. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, in April of this year the NDP signed an agreement giving chiefs on the east side veto power over d ecisions on the east side of Lake Winnipeg.

Six months later Chief Ian Bushie of Hollow Water exercised his veto and erected an illegal barricade to stop further home and cottage lot development and to stop lot owners from protecting their property before freeze-up. So I ask the Minister of Justice: If he won't enforce the law, will he at least commit to paying for the damages? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, if the member would reply, and I ask him, to his legal judgment to the document that was signed, he would know that there is no veto power contained in that document, and, in fact, if he was in court he'd probably have to withdraw his statement.

But he's not in court. But I should indicate, Mr. Speaker, that I note that the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs wants an apology from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. McFadyen) and says, and I quote: " . . . or do you only talk to First Nations people when you need their votes." Generic Drugs Time Frame for Approval Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, the ability of– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Steinbach has the floor. Mr. Goertzen: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The ability of Manitobans to access generic drugs which have been approved by Health Canada saves the Pharmacare system in Manitoba millions of dollars and ultimately saves lives. However, Manitobans cannot access these generic drugs which do the same work as their brand name counterparts until they've been approved by a provincial government committee. Can the Minister of Health advise Manitobans when the Drug Standards and Therapeutics Committee of Manitoba last met to update the generic drugs in Manitoba? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, as the member opposite knows, and as all members of this House know, Manitoba has worked very diligently to ensure, as cited by the Canadian Institute for Health Informa tion, that we have one of the most, if not the most robust Pharmacare programs in Canada.

990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 We know, ensuring as we're looking at health spending and looking at ever-increasing costs for drugs of the generic kind, that we have to be working very diligently with our partners to ensure that we can hold the line on those costs and make sure that we're able to provide as many drugs as possible on our drug formulary, while ensuring that our spending is kept in check. Mr. Goertzen: Mr.

Speaker, the minister exercised her parliamentary right not to answer the question, but she's not doing her democratic duty to tell Manitobans what's going on with the generic drugs in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, for the minister's information, the provincial committee has not updated the generic drugs available in Manitoba since March of this year. Other provinces' committees such as Alberta, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick have approved new generic drugs, some of them just in the last few days.

Why is this Minister of Health dithering on this important issue and breaking her promise to Manitobans to provide timely and effective health care? Ms. Oswald: Mr. Speaker, as the member opposite states, we are constantly reviewing the kinds of drugs that are available to Manitobans of the name brand variety, of the generic variety. Those reviews take place every six months, and it's a constant review.

We're also among the first in Canada, if not the first, to enter into utilization management agreements with pharmaceutical companies so that we can work together with the industry to hold the line on cost to provide even more drugs to Manitobans that will be covered under Pharmacare and to make sure that all Manitobans, seniors, children alike are getting the kind of care that they need when they need it. Mr. Goertzen: I advise the minister again that that committee has not met since March to update generic drugs available in Manitoba. The generic drug rampiril was launched in December of 2006.

It helps lower blood pressure. It's a substitute for the named drug Altace. It's estimated that if this drug had been approved even eight months ago, Pharmacare and Manitobans would have saved $2.4 million. There are other generic drugs that deal with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, infections, tonsillitis, bronchitis and allergies. They're all sitting in there waiting for the minister's committee to meet so that they can get approval. Why is she making Manitobans, why is she making Pharmacare wait for these drugs to get approved and to save millions of dollars to Manitobans? Ms. Oswald: Again, Mr.

Speaker, I thank the member for the question. But he needs to remember that this kind of review takes place at minimum every six months. It's a continuous ongoing review and he needs to also bear in mind that with utilization management agreements that are in place, virtually unprecedented in Canada, we're saving money on drugs each and every day. It's also worthwhile to note that we are second in Canada in terms of coverage that we provide for our provincial oncology budget. Manitoba is moving in the right direction and covering costs for drugs, and we'll continue to do so. Economy–Manitoba Fiscal Policy Mr.

Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, it seems we have finally identified the direction of the NDP fiscal policy. The Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Mr. Robinson) is quoted as saying, and I quote: we can no longer afford to make decisions based solely on the bottom line. It's now on the record, but it shouldn't be a surprise. The NDP has always governed this way. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister of Finance tell me whether this lack of regard for the bottom line is an official policy position of the NDP, and by extension, the policy position of Manitoba Hydro and all other departments under the minister's control? * (14:00) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, while the member was in retirement, we balanced the budget eight times in the province of Manitoba, and we paid down debt in Manitoba. We addressed the pension liability, and when we bring forward future budgets, they will balance as well.

The member knows full well that Manitoba has done an excellent job in terms of its fiscal management in this province. It's been recognized by the bond rating agencies who have upgraded the credit rating in this province four times. Standard and Poor's, Dominion Bond Rating Service, Moody service, have all upgraded the credit rating of Manitoba because of our ability to manage the finances of this province. Mr. Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance has done it on the backs of Manitoba taxpayers. He's

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 991 done it on the backs of Canadian taxpayers with equalization and transfer payments that have never been so high. Mr. Speaker, controlling our debt should be doable with equalization payments increasing at a rate of 10 percent. However, this government has still managed to increase the debt burden of Manitobans every year. Manitobans need a fiscally responsible government to make decisions that incorporate the impact of the bottom line. The NDP simply spends, taxes and spends more, in debt finances. Mr.

Speaker, is this minister going to continue to [inaudible] our mounting debt and fritter away our record levels of transfer payments, or is he finally going to exhibit fiscal responsibility when it comes to our Manitoba taxpayers? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I think the member was reading some very old Hansards because taxes have gone down in Manitoba, debt-to-GDP ratio has gone down, investments in key programs like Assiniboine Community College. If the member's against Assiniboine College, let us know. If he's against the new hospital in Brandon, let us know.

If he's against the new bridge in Brandon, let us know. All those investments the people of Brandon appreciate. Country of Origin Labeling Legislation Government's Response Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, the United States farm bill contains provision for Manitoba country-of-origin labelling which would come into effect next fall. The Canadian Cattlemen's Association and the Canadian Pork Council say country-of-origin labelling could cost their industries more than $500 million a year, Mr. Speaker.

Manitoba's Minister of Agriculture said she's going to send a letter to the federal government on this issue. Mr. Speaker, given the devastating financial impact that country-of-origin labelling will have, will the Minister of Agricu lture assure Manitoba producers that she's going to develop a long-term plan on this issue? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, this is a very important issue and one that we have been addressing with the U.S. government.

In fact, it was on the table at the western governors and premiers conference, so I can assure the member that we have been addressing it. But, Mr. Speaker, this is a very important market for us, and we have to continue to raise the issue that we cannot have country-of-origin labelling, and many of the issues that are outlined in country-of- origin labelling have not been addressed. It is a very serious issue, but I say to the member, as well, that's why we have to look for solutions at home.

That's why I'm so pleased that the Manitoba enhancement council has been able to announce their first project that will see more processing of Manitoba beef in Manitoba. Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, the executive director of the Canadian Pork Council has said that country-of- origin labelling, and I quote, this is a disaster. We are in a perfect storm of challenging circumstances for our industry. A strong approach is needed to country- of-origin labelling. First, you try and cut it off at the pass before it becomes law. Second, to prepare a long-term plan to help industries if it does become law. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture tell this House what long-term plan this government has to help Manitoba producers deal with the impact of country-of-origin labelling? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The member is correct. The best way to deal with this issue is to try to educate the Americans that are proposing it on the consequences for their economy and our economy. We raised it with the commissioner of agriculture and other states. If you can imagine one of the weanlings–there are about 3 million weanlings a year going to United States.

Does that mean the bacon is Canadian bacon or American bacon when the pig is processed or completed in the American market and then slaughtered there. So, it is a complicated issue. There are a lot of American peop le in agriculture and in industry that understand that it's not that simple to propose that a weanling in Manitoba that goes to Minnesota to be completed, what is the label going to be? There are a lot of people we can work with and that's our first objective, Mr. Speaker. Spirited Energy Advertising Campaign Spending Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr.

Speaker, first we were led to believe by this NDP government, actually by this Premier (Mr. Doer), that there would no additional dollars spent on the Spirited Energy

992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 campaign. We were even issued FIPPA responses that said no additional dollars were to be spent. Then the minister told us that spending was $10,000 per month. Then the government staff corrected the minister by saying the totals were closer to $22,000 per month. Mr. Speaker, this isn't a bidding war on The Price Is Right . Will the Minister of Competitiveness now clarify, for the record, exactly how much was spent each month and explain why we were issued FIPPA's responses that said zero? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, not only did we have an all-party agreement to have the Auditor go in and do an audit on this, and we're expecting the audit very, very shortly, but what we have done is we've said, let the business people lead this initiative. I'm shocked that the member opposite keeps on calling this a war, calls it unsightly, calls it embarrassing, when what we've done is we've tried to work with the business community, business leaders in the province, to create a very favourable marketing program for the province. We have been open.

The member opposite was quoting from numbers of FIPPA requests that we had provided to her. We have been open about this, and will continue to be open, and looking forward to the Auditor General's report. Mrs. Rowat: I'm shocked but not surprised by this minister's inability to answer a question. Mr. Speaker, last week in Estimates the minister did a great job of deflecting blame and avoiding responsibility for his Spirited misspending, but finally committed to providing us with a full accounting of all of the sp ending of the campaign. It's been nearly a week and he still avoids the need to be accountable.

I ask the Minister of Competitiveness: Will he, today, table the true accounting of the Spirited Energy campaign? Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Speaker, I'm very shocked that the member opposite–they've called it ridiculous. They've spun lame old comments about this campaign. What we did was work with the business community to market the province. Number two, what we did was an all-party recommendation to the Auditor General to make sure that she had full information so that she could conduct an audit and provide a public audit.

Number three, on the freedom of information, we provided to the member opposite a stack of invoices about this. She says that we're not being open. Mr. Speaker, we have been open. We have been blunt. What we have continued to do is make sure that we are accountable and will continue to be so. Private Sector Donations Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, the minister's failure to admit his government's spending has us concerned that Crown corporations are once again being considered private donors to the Spirited Energy campaign.

Last year, $54,500 of Manitoba's MPI premiums were paid for the Spirited Energy street teams. I ask the minister: Who's paying for the street teams and temporary tattoos this year? MPI ratepayers? Manitoba Hydro ratepayers? Is it the people buying beer and wine at MLCC? Is it the people at the tables at the Manitoba Lotteries casinos? Which Crown corporations are private do nors this year, and how much are they paying or chipping in, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I listen to the member opposite and talk about how it's unsightly, embarrassing, a war. We know that the member opposite does not believe in allowing a good marketing campaign to produce. What's interesting, Mr. Speaker, is that the member opposite is putting the slight on the members of the business community who have spent hours volunteering, spent hours leading this process.

I don't know whether the member opposite does not believe that Ash Modha and Bob Silver and all these people who have donated their skills and time to move it forward, but we believe that it's an issue that should be led by the business community. We're following their lead. I await the Auditor General's report to see how this spending has been done. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:10) Hollow Water Cottage Barricade Record of Consultations Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier: The Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers) has a record of poor and failed consultations.

The consultation with Métis over the harvester cards was very poorly done. The

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 993 consultations of the Lowlands National Park were a complete failure, a disaster. Now the Minister of Conservation has botched the consultations with the people in Hollow Water. I ask the Premier today to table the e-mails and the letters that went from his office and the Minister of Conservation's office to the people in Hollow Water and chief and council to ask for and to request these consultations. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Well, first of all, Mr. Speaker, the member opposite has stated his view on the harvester card.

He would want to delegate that authority completely to an organization. We have not done that. You know, he took a position in terms of hunting, although we didn't take that position. We have no difficulty in supporting the principles of the Powley decision but also having the ability to implement the policies on hunting on the basis of conservation. The first criteria is the responsibility of the provincial government to be responsible for the species in Manitoba.

The member opposite has taken a different view, I would argue, an unconserving view of that issue, and just goes in front of conventions and grandstands and promises this and that which doesn't take in the best interests of conservation in Manitoba. We need no lecture from the member opposite on the policy of harvester cards. We were up front about it, again, before the election, during the election. We were up front about it during the Métis convention. We believe safety, conservation, issues of treaty rights has informed our policies on this issue, and we reject his position on it. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, we're on opposite sides, clearly, of the harvester cards, but here today we're dealing with an issue of Hollow Water. The MLA for Rupertsland and Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Mr. Robinson) has said publicly that the Minister of Conservation botched the consultations and the MLA for Rupertsland has supported the people of Hollow Water against his own government.

I ask the Premier whether he will not table the e-mails and the letters from his office and the Minister of Conservation's office to the people of Hollow Water, the chief and council, so that at least he will be in a position to publicly support the kind of approach to consultations that he's taken so far. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, dealing generally with the east side, the Member for Rupertsland and as minister had over 80 meetings on the long-term land use policies on the east side, 80 meetings.

The member opposite should know that that is a very serious effort on consultations with all First Nations people, not just chiefs and councils, and that's important, but all the people in the communities. You know, Mr. Speaker, there's a person who stands up here, yells, but doesn't even have a position on the east-side transmission line. At least the Member for Rupertsland has a backbone. Youth Justice System Joint Chairs Committee Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, over the years, we have seen this government marginalize the consequences of youth violating our laws which in essence makes a mockery of the whole justice system. There was a time in which a youth that would steal something from a store or cause vandalism would go before justice committees. That has all fallen by the wayside as this government takes us in a new direction. Mr. Speaker, today, I understand that the joint chairs committee of the youth justice committees is no longer functioning.

Can the Minister of Justice tell this Chamber is the joint chairs for our youth justice committees still active today? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Yes, Mr. Speaker, as I explained at length for the member in Estimates regarding youth justice committees last week during the Estimates process, because of changes to the YCJA brought in, the function and operation of youth justice committees has changed and we are looking to use the volunteer and the tremendous goodwill from the communities within the justice system, but it's in a changed fashion. I might also add, Mr.

Speaker, that we have been very concerned about the level of youth activity, which is one of the reasons why we've lobbied the federal government now to make changes, and it looks as though they're going to make changes to the Youth Criminal Justice Act in order to ensure that (

a) we can give opportunities to those that need opportunities by community-based programs, which we are doing in an unpr ecedented number, and (

b) there are– Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Brandon East.

994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): I have a fan club over there. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Assiniboine Community College Progress of Relocation Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): The Doer government believes in building educational excellence in Manitoba. Few of the provinces have met double-digit enrolment increases. It's made unprecedented investments in post-secondary institutions. It's made a return to respect for educators, respect that was–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr.

Speaker: The Member for Lac du Bonnet, on a point of order? Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I'm not sure whether you heard the Member for Brandon East correctly, but I heard him from my seat, and he said, he announced, the Premier, Mr. Doer as opposed to the Premier. Certainly that's against the rules, and I'd ask that you'd caution the member accordingly. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the member was quoting from the Brandon Sun that said: The task of expanding college opportunities for young Mani- tobans was left to the Doer government, and it's done a remarkable job on this front. I think the member was just perhaps quoting from the Brandon Sun which said the Doer government has done a remarkable job on this front. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised, I heard it very clear that the reference was made to the Doer government. I, as Speaker, have allowed that in order for honourable members to point out the error that they are speaking of.

All members are fully aware that, if they are ma king reference to another member, it's not by name, it's by constituency or by portfolios that members hold. But I did hear it very clearly, and the reference I heard was Doer government, and that has always been allowed so that way it gives the members a chance to identify with what era the member that has the floor is talking about. For example–[interjection] Order. For example, in the past what I've used is like the Filmon government, the Pawley government and here today it's the Doer government.

So I have always accepted that, and I will continue to accept that. The honourable member does not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Brandon East, to continue. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, the Doer government is building educational excellence in Manitoba. In the 2005 Throne Speech, we committed to developing ACC at the former Brandon Mental Health Centre site, an outstanding architectural monument in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, given the social and economic significance of Assiniboine Community College, can the Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy please advise Manitobans of the progress being made on ACC's relocation? * (14:20) Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy): I thank my colleague for the question. In answering it I want to point out to the Member for Brandon West (Mr. Borotsik) who was present at the opening of the Manitoba Institute of Culinary Arts last week, I want to point out, Mr.

Speaker, that if we had followed his advice and taken the bottom line, there would be no centre for culinary arts. But we believe in excellence in education, and consequently we have invested $6 million in the creation of the Manitoba Institute of Culinary Arts. I was joined by the Member for Brandon West, the Member for Brandon East, the president of the college for the inauguration of this spectacular new building which actually is a regeneration of the previous nurses' residence and so combines the beauties of heritage with state-of-the-art technical developments. Mr. Speaker: Order.

The time for Oral Questions has expired.

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 995 MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Pembina Constituency Community Events Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, 2007 has been an historic year for the Pembina constituency. This year Morden celebrated its 125th anniversary, and in 2008 it will be recognized as a cultural capital of Canada. Building on this momentum each month we can mark several more accomplishments. This month alone I have been honoured to attend community events that re flect our constituency's growth and generous charitable spirit.

On October 5, the community of Morden gathered to celebrate the expansion and upgrade of the impressive 3M plant. I would like to sincerely congratulate and thank the management and employees of 3M. They are valuable members of our business community and set high standards with its progressive charitable work and responsible practices that contribute to a sustainable environment. 3M is a world-class manufacturer of quality products. Morden has been fortunate to include 3M in our community since 1982.

Demonstrating the success of this plant, it doubled in size in 1991. 3M has an exciting future in Morden and Manitoba. Our community looks forward to a mutually beneficial partnership, helping them achieve continued success and prosperity. On October 6, I was privileged to attend and participate in the first annual Thanks for Giving Half Marathon in Winkler. Just over $14,000 was raised for the Winkler and District Food Cupboard to help families and individuals in need.

People from around Winkler but as far away as Brandon and British Columbia ran either the 5-kilometre or 15-kilometre course to raise money for this worthy cause. I would like to thank and congratulate each of the participants, volunteers, donors and Race Director Anna Matuszewski for the work that she did. During the Thanksgiving long weekend, it was heartening to see this outstanding event reminding us to be truly appreciative and thankful for what we have. It reminded each of us that we need to help others, not only during the holiday season but each and every day. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Buhler Recreation Park Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that on September 8 baseball started at our beautiful, state-of-the-art Buhler Recreation Park in south Transcona. This new multi-sport, all-ages recreation park will be officially opened next year. The park nearing completion is located just off of Murdock Road in south Tr anscona, an area that is comprised of some 140 acres and is larger than Kildonan Park, Mr. Speaker.

When completed, this new park will contain eight softball diamonds, two fastball diamonds, four soccer pitches, a playground, walking trails, a canteen now under construction, exhibition space and a large parking area. The park will be operational yea r-round and will maintain skiing trails, a skating pond and a toboggan hill as featured winter activities. National softball tournaments are already planned for this site next year, and baseball diamond bookings are nearly completely filled for the entire year.

Roughly 1,000 trees will be planted on the site in an effort to attract a wide variety of wildlife for viewing enjoyment of many visitors. My thanks to the Floodway Authority and to Manitoba Hydro for their assistance in obtaining these trees. The park is expected to attract some 400,000 visitors annually, and it is projected to contribute some $10 million annually to our local economy. Our province is proud to financially support this $6-million initiative together with our partners in both the federal government and the City of Winnipeg.

The four Transcona community clubs comprising the East Winnipeg Sports Association and Mr. Steve Mymko of Transcona also need to be credited for securing an astounding $1.6 million in donations from individuals and businesses. Some of these donors include John Buhler, the Transcona Credit Union, Manitoba Lotteries and New Flyer. Mr. Speaker, Transcona's field of dreams is becoming a reality because of the tireless efforts of many volunteers within our community. On behalf of this House, I would like to thank and recognize the individuals and business organizations that have brought this dream to life.

We have many more good news announcements regarding this park in the coming days and weeks ahead. Thank you. Family Doctor Week Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): No one can deny the importance of a society where citizens are healthy and, when ill, they can get the care they require. Having been trained as a nurse and worked with many qualified medical professionals, it is my pleasure to recognize that October 8 to October 13,

996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 2007 is Family Doctor Week in Canada. We should all take the opportunity to appreciate the importance of family physicians and their impact on our own lives. Family Doctor Week is a time to appreciate the outstanding contributions these doctors make to society in their delivery of health care. They provide a special doctor-patient relationship that cannot easily be replaced. Family doctors undertake countless roles in their e fforts to provide the best care for their patients.

They diagnose and treat illnesses and injuries, promote disease prevention and good health and co-ordinate care on behalf of their patients. Family Doctor Week allows the focus to be turned to the physician in gratitude for the care they provide. Family Doctor Week is even more important for Manitoba this year as the annual Family Medicine Forum will be hosted in Winnipeg from October 11 to 13. Visitors from across the country will come to this city to attend the forum and see the wide range of exhibits, seminars and guest speakers. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, successful singer-songwriter and Manitoba native Chantal Kreviazuk will provide a special performance at the close of the events. Mr. Speaker, I rise in this House today to acknowledge the hard work, dedication and care of all family doctors in this province and throughout the country during this week in recognition of them. Thank you. Flin Flon Green Project Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I have worked and lived in the riding of Flin Flon for 35 years. Flin Flon is a beautiful city with a vibrant and energetic population of 6,000 people.

It's a unique city perched on the rocks at the edge of the Canadian Shield. For three-quarters of a century this picturesque city has been a proud and prosperous community. Part of its history has been the story of the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company. Since the establishment of HBM&S in 1930, Flin Flon has become one of Canada's most prosperous mining communities. Mr. Speaker, our government has been a strong supporter of the Flin Flon/Creighton Green Project. Heather Acres, one of the key organizers, has devoted huge passion and commitment to returning the soil to its natural state.

The green project uses limestone to neutralize the effects of the copper, zinc, cadmium and acidity in the soil. The results are astounding. I would ask that all honourable members go to their Web site: www.greenproject.ca, to see the miraculous difference their work is making in the local environment. Along with Heather, Mr. David Price has done an enormous amount of work on this project also. This year, 655 volunteers came out to help spread limestone on what is currently barren land. In a few years this bleak landscape will be transformed into productive, lush, green, natural scenery.

I am pleased to inform the House that, as of August 2007, the project has almost 35 hectares under treatment. However, Mr. Speaker, Heather reminded me that the most rewarding part of the project is seeing all the young people coming out to make a meaningful improvement to their environment. There are many mining communities across Canada, some of which have smelters. There have always been environmental challenges connected to mining and smelting activities. We know that there is more work to be done in addressing these challenges.

I am proud that our government and industry have taken steps towards reducing present-day pollution and addressing contamination from earlier eras. For example, recently we've allocated $39 million for cleaning up contaminated sites in Manitoba and over $70 million for cleaning up abandoned and orphaned mines. I'm also proud that all stakeholders are committed to the process of reducing emissions. All of us are committed to improving the quality of our air, soil and water.

It is through excellent partnerships like the Flin Flon/Creighton Green Project that we are making a difference and adding to the already stunning beauty of Flin Flon. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (14:30) Dugald Train Disaster Anniversary Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, the community of Dugald recently came together to remember one of the most tragic disasters to ever occur in Manitoba.

On September 1, 1947 at the end of a Labour Day weekend, when families were travelling home from their holidays, an eastbound Continental passenger train collided head-on with another westbound passenger train in the small rural town. Thirty-one people perished and 80 sustained serious injuries.

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 997 As the MLA for Springfield, I was in attendance at a ceremony in Dugald commemorating the tragedy. This September 1 held special importance, as a historical marker created to commemorate the 1947 Dugald train disaster was unveiled. With this marker the community ensures that the event shall not be forgotten and it honours the 31 lives that were abruptly cut short that day. Despite the passing of 60 years, let us not forget the residents of Dugald and surrounding area who came to aid in the rescue efforts during the terrible tragedy.

What was an ordinary holiday weekend suddenly turned into a cata strophe that saw an entire community come together to assist those in desperate need. Profound stories of heroism emerged from the area when the trains colli ded and presence of the historical marker means the heart of the small community shall inspire others for years to come. Mr. Speaker, the Springfield Women's Institute deserves recognition for their hard work as they took up the challenge in 2003 to provide a means to commemorate the train disaster.

It is through their dedication that the historical marker will forever act as a reminder of the tragedy that occurred in this community and the strength that emerged from it. I would now like to read the 31 names into the record. Stanley Adams, Mrs. Stanley Adams, Shirley Adams, Donna Barlow, Miss M.E. Booth, Grenville J. Dixon, Mrs. Betty Dixon, Donald Dixon, Patricia Dixon, Merle Dixon, George Fraser, George Harmon, Mrs. George Harmon, Martha Jarvi, Jane Jamieson, Ida Kozar, Gaylord Lewis, Richard Mellor, Mrs. Richard Mellor, Jimmie Papki, Adam Richardson, Gilbert Roug eau, Mrs. A.

Simpson, Betty Simpson, Winnie Simpson, Fred Skogsberg, George Steele, Mrs. George Steele, Ronald Steele, Joyce Vander Linden, Alma Wynne and may they rest in peace. Thank you. House Business Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would canvass the House to see if there is an agreement by all members to set aside the ordinary business of the House to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the continued escalation of violence in Darfur, which is the– [interjection] Oh, we have to hear it first? Well, okay. MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that under rule 36.1, the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the continued escalation of violence in Darfur and the need for Manitoba MLAs to act to raise awareness of the situation and to support Sudanese Manitobans who are calling for urgent action to support and enhance peace-making and peace-keeping efforts in the Darfur region. Motion presented. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): I believe if you were to canvass members of the House I suggest there would be unanimous consent to allow this motion to be debated in the context of one member of the Liberal Party, one member from the official opposition and one member from the government speaking to it. I believe, if you canvass the House, you would see agreement to undertake that initiative. Mr.

Speaker: Is there a willingness of the House for the matter of urgent public importance to come forward with one speaker from each, one speaker from the independent members, one speaker from the official opposition and one speaker from the government side, and then that would conclude the debate on the matter of urgent public importance. Is there leave to do that? [Agreed] Okay, leave has been granted, so now we will hear from one member, one member from the independent office, one member from the official opposition and one member from the Conservative, I mean, from the government party.

So now we will start off with the mover of the motion, the honourable Member for River Heights. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, it is timely and appropriate that we have a discussion and a debate in this Chamber related to the situation in Darfur and the need to raise awarenes s and to support Sudanese Manitobans and many other Manitobans who are calling for urgent action to support and enhance the peacekeeping and peacemaking efforts in the Darfur region. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that this is an appropriate time. Although the conflict in Darfur has been going on for some time, it is now at a critical

998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 point, and, therefore, this is appropriate to raise it now as a matter of urgent public importance because it is the first time, given the critical junction of events, that this opportunity has arisen. We are at a critical time in Darfur because, first of all, there is now an African Union police force, or force, present trying to improve the situation there, but, clearly, they are having some difficulty. We are, at the moment, in a situation where the United Nations has worked very hard and is hoping to imminently be able to deploy a United Nations force.

There is a need right now for additional support for that force. They are not, as I understand it, calling on Canada, for example, to put forward soldiers in the force, but rather that they need equipment and other forms of support for the force if it's going to be able to go and do its job appropriately in the Darfur region. Secondly, it is at a critical time because even in the last few days there are ongoing massacres and slaughters, people and villages being bombed and lives lost on a continuing basis because of what is happening in Darfur.

On the weekend, I had the opportunity to participate in the run for Darfur. This was at the Assiniboine Park, and there were many people there who are from the Sudanese community in Manitoba and, indeed, many others who were also supporting. Indeed, I think that there were approximately 500 people in the walk or run and many others who were there supportive of these efforts to highlight the urgent need for attention on the situation in Darfur. Ms.

Bonnie Korzeniowski, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair So one of the people who was there who is from Sudan talked to me about this ongoing violence, slaughter of innocent women and children, including others, and it is a terrible situation. I think all of us are shocked by what is going on, and it is because this situation continues and because there is, right now, a critical opportunity to bring an improvement in the situation that this discussion in the Manitoba Legislature is so timely.

I suggest to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, that one might ask, well, why should we in the Manitoba Legislature be debating a subject which might be considered foreign affairs and primarily under the federal government. Well, I would suggest to you that all of us have a responsibility to speak up on this issue, and that we have, as we have on many another issue, a responsibility to have our comments heard at the federal government to urge the federal government to do what it can.

But, at the same time, we have a responsibility to do what we can because, as we have seen in other circumstances, a global effort, where the combined voices of many, has an impact far beyond the voices of a few. * (14:40) I believe that, if combined voices of people from around the world were heard adequately, if people were allowed to speak up and in legislatures and provinces and in countries around the world, we had resolutions like this spoken to and supported, then, Madam Speaker, I believe that we would have the critical effort which would continue to support and build the momentum which is now there at this very critical time in the situation in Darfur.

I think it is important to note that there have been similarities drawn between what is happening in Darfur and what happened in Rwanda. Of course, our own Roméo Dallaire, who is now a senator, has spoken out passionately about the situation in Rwanda where he was and the need for more global action when the critical time came then. In Rwanda, it never happened; it never came to pass.

I've personally talked to and heard from Roméo Dallaire and I know that he is passionate also about improving the intervention capabilities in Darfur so that we can stop the massacres and the slaughter and bring peace to this region in Africa which has been so troubled in the last number of years. The situation in Darfur demands and needs a global attention. It should not be forgotten; it should not be relegated to the back rooms. It should be discussed out in the open here in the Legislature.

I’m pleased that all parties have agreed to participate to support this idea that we need to raise not only awareness but to have an awareness of not only the situation but that the time now for action is a very critical time. It is a time for all of us to have our voices heard in this Legislature and send that voice around the world, not just to Ottawa. Certainly, in Manitoba we have had quite a number of people who have come from Sudan.

Many of us have met or are familiar with the Lost Boys from the Sudan and the incredible stories of hardship, of loss of family members, of the terrible situation that has existed in the Sudan and the need now and the call now for action. I know that because I have talked on a number of occasions to members of the Lost Boys, including on Sunday at the Run for

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 999 Darfur, including today, a member of the Sudanese community who is very passionately concerned that there be more awareness and action. We are going to have later this week, I believe on Friday, some more efforts to promote knowledge about Darfur and to propel people around the world to act and to commit to making sure that we are doing what we can by speaking out, by pushing for action and support to make sure that the United Nations force gets there as soon as possible and is in a position because it's well supported to be effective.

There have been varied attempts in the past but now is clearly a critical time; there is an opportunity, and that is why I'm so pleased that all parties are ready to support and to come forward and talk about this situation here, so that what we say here can go forward and push for greater awareness of how difficult and desperate the current situation is and what there is in terms of an opportunity and why it is so important now to act and to push those who are in a position to act, to act. Mr.

Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): I t i s m y p l e a s u r e today to stand and speak to this issue, though it is a federal issue. Quite clearly it is an issue which all of us, I’m sure, are aware of, and I very much hope that the all-party recognition of that will in some small way help toward changing the circumstances of the people still in Darfur and all of the people who have had to flee that part of our planet.

Before I go much further, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think it's very important to acknowledge that, when you're about to speak about issues of this nature, we acknowledge the enormous position of privilege that we enjoy here, and by here I don't just mean this Chamber where all of us, of course all 57 of us, have access to information and decision- making powers that the vast majority of our fellow citizens in our own province don't have by the nature of our elected positions. I mean just by the nature of living in Manitoba and by the nature of being in Canada, the enormous privilege that goes with that.

When you meet people from the Sudan, when you meet the lost boys and girls of Sudan, and anyone else who has gone through this type of turmoil, you really begin to appreciate how precious our current situation in Canada is and how absolutely vital it is that we do a better job of helping other parts of the world in every way that we possibly can. While this is clearly, under the Canadian Constitution, an issue that would fall under the federal government's jurisdiction, this is not the first time that our government has lent its voice and its resources to international issues. The Premier (Mr.

Doer), I was very proud–it was actually one of the first events that I went to. He hosted representatives from the Manitoba Coun cil for International Cooperation, which is an umbrella group, and I had the honour of serving on their board for a time for all of the non-governmental organizations based in Manitoba. There the Premier announced an annual increase of $250,000 per year to that group so that they could continue to do their excellent work with their partners on the ground in developing nations clear around the world.

When other disasters have struck various regions of our planet and had enormous detrimental impact, such as a tsunami, Manitoba, I'm very proud to say both the government and its citizens have been very generous in the donations of time and resources to try and help in any way that we can. Mr. Speaker in the Chair So it is a federal issue, but this is not new terrain for our progressive and very globally minded government to be lending our support and our voice to legitimate causes.

It's an approach that we share with our federal colleagues and our federal party of the New Democratic Party, who have for many years now called on successive federal governments, be they Liberal or Conservative, to make the genocide in Darfur a much higher priority and to provide more support to prevent some of these awful circumstances from happening. And I am, Mr. Speaker, I am sure, one of many, many tens of thousands of Canadians who are quite disappointed that that higher commitment has not happened yet at the federal level.

To understand why this is such an important issue and why it is that we're speaking to it today, a few quick words on the context, I think, are in order. The country of Sudan, such as it still exists despite years of internal turmoil, is located in East Africa. The particular region of Darfur is in the western part of that nation and it is split between the north which controls the government in Khartoum and the south, and the lost boys and girls come from the southern part of Sudan. The official estimates, which are often very low, suggest that 250,000 people have been killed.

The local members of the Sudanese community here put that number closer to 400,000 people who have died and over two and a half million people who have been displaced from their

1000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 homes and are now in a refugee camp, or not even enjoying that small meagre amount of protection. * (14:50) To put a story forward, to try and help all of us better understand what 400,000 people being slaughtered and two and a half million being displaced, what that is, because it is so far from our privileged perspective here in Canada–I want, with your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, to read a brief excerpt from a book which a good friend of mine sent recently. The bo ok is called Not On Our Watch and it's by the authors Don Cheadle and John Prendergast.

These are not easy words to read, nor are they probably easy to listen to, never mind to write, but all the more reason to do so. So the quote begins with this: When we spoke with the survivors of the genocide, most had similar stories. The attacks usually began before dawn. Government aircraft commenced the assaults by dropping crude bombs on villages killing men, women and children as they slept in their beds.

In the chaotic aftermath of the bombings, government troops with hundreds of Janjaweed fighters would sweep into a village to murder the men, rape the women, burn the homes, loot the livestock and drive the survivors into the desert. To prevent people from returning to their villages, the Janjaweed poisoned the water supply by dumping bodies down wells. They destroyed crops and precious food supplies.

Food availability dwindled, prices soared, malnutrition rates skyrocketed, and the government began its favourite tried-and-true tactic of denying humanitarian assistance to its suffering citizens by cutting off their access to aid agencies. One of the New York Times columnists, Nicholas Kristof's trip to Darfur in June 2004 was particularly difficult and uncomfortable. To make one quote from this story, Mr. Speaker: What I found most poignant, were the women in Kalma Camp who were willing to tell me with sound and video running, using their names, that they had been gang-raped by the police.

They risked humiliation and retribution, yet they had the gut to come forward because they thought it would help stop the assaults. They were also seeking shelter under trees and I started talking to them. Under the first tree were two brothers who had been shot. The one less injured had carried his badly wounded brother on his back for 49 days and was nursing and trying to keep him alive. Under the next tree was a women whose parents had been shot and thrown into the wells and then her husband was shot in front of her. Under the third tree were two little children, aged 4 and 1, who were orphans.

Their parents had been killed. Then as far as I looked there were more trees and more families sheltering underneath them with stories just as heart-wrenching. That, Mr. Speaker, is wh at Darfur is right now. It may seem to us, living here, that it is on the other side of the world, but it's not. Those issues, those people live right here in our community now. They are the lost boys and girls of Sudan who have suffered. Under those contexts, others of them, many of them were captured by the rebel Janjaweeds and forced to become child soldiers.

Only a few of them managed to escape, and so many of them still have family in Africa. Most often they don't know if they are even still alive or where they are if they are alive. It has been an enormous privilege for me, particularly given my background in international education, to meet and to work with a number of the lost boys and girls from the Sudan, and I want to tell you just a few stories about two of them. Simon and Samuel are two of them.

Simon, quite recently, won a remarkable peace award for his effort, not just to raise awareness about what is happening in his home country, but to go a step further and to start raising the funds to actually build a school back home in the Sudan, and Samuel, who has remarkably managed to take his experiences from Africa and propel them into an incredible gift which he has found and that is his music. He has just cut his first CD and I was very proud to be on stage with him just this past weekend at the Run for Darfur where he performed one of the title tracks from that piece. I also think, Mr.

Speaker, that there's an enormous amount of hope amidst this backdrop of tragedy and genocide. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to just thank the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) and thank the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer) for the articulate and thoughtful comments that have been made on this important issue. If I could just, to some extent, pick up on where the Member for Wolseley left off and add my voice and the voice of members of our Progressive Conservative caucus to the debate

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1001 today, not debate so much as a call to action on the part of all members of this House for all those who have an ability to influence the direction of events today taking place in the Darfur region of Sudan. Mr. Speaker, we have seen through news reports and through direct personal accounts of individuals who have fled that region of the atrocities that are taking place in that troubled country. We've seen since 2004 pitched battles raging through the region.

We know of at least 200,000 people who are thought to have died and more than 2.5 million more who are believed to have fled their homes in the face of the atrocities and the destruction of villages. The Member for Wolseley has put on the record some of the specific stories of violence, torture, disease, starvation and rape which have taken place in that country in the midst of this terrible conflict. So, Mr.

Speaker, we are in a situation where, here in the safety of Manitoba and Canada, we cannot and should not escape awareness of what is happening, which means that we cannot and should not escape responsibility for playing a role in attempting to bring about peace and a lasting settlement of differences among those involved. We certainly need a strong international response to bring to justice those who are committing the atrocities, and we need a response to bring care and nurturing and security to those who have been victimized and who continue to be victimized by what is happening in Darfur. Mr.

Speaker, we have seen the very recent reports of attacks on African Union forces. We have seen recently reports of the concern about the ability of the African Union peacekeepers to maintain order and to provide a just solution to what is taking place. So, Mr. Speaker, we know that the United Nations has taken a strong interest in this issue. We commend them for th at. We support the efforts of United Nations forces and personnel as they attempt to provide a degree of safety and order within that troubled part of our world.

We know from the stories being told by refugees here in Winnipeg, Manitoba, about what is taking place. We know the stories of the Lost Boys of Sudan. We had an opportunity during the war child conference to hear stories of those who have been victimized and been required to be separated from families and loved ones as they flee danger. So, Mr. Speaker, there's no question that what we have today is a humanitarian crisis of immense proportions. It's a crisis that calls for the intervention of the international community including Canada and Manitoba.

I certainly add my support and the support of members of this caucus to the words already spoken today and the need for urgent international action to deal with what's taking place. * (15:00) Mr. Speaker, in my own way, I've had the opportunity to hear first-hand about some of the circumstances and the terrible outcomes of the violence in Sudan. I note a media story quoting Serge Kaptegaine, who is originally from Congo bordering the area which is currently in crisis, but who in his own circumstances fled that country and was separated from his own family as a result of conflict.

He has spoken passionately about the need for international care and concern and intervention in Darfur. Mr. Kaptegaine is somebody who is a great contributor to our society here in Manitoba. In my case, I've had the pleasure of being instructed in French by Mr.

Kaptegaine, and, through no fault of his, probably haven't learned as much as I might have hoped by this stage through the instruction but have learned a great deal about the horrendous circumstances that he left, the heartbreak of being separated from family and friends and the ongoing atrocities that are taking place in Darfur and also in other regions of Africa and in other places around the world, Mr. Speaker. We know that here in Manitoba we have many who are deeply involved in international efforts to bring sustenance and to bring safety and clean water to people in troubled parts of the world.

I think of the work of the Mennonite Central Committee which does so much on the international stage in order to provide relief and the many other organizations that are involved in relief work internationally. I'm proud to be from a province, Mr. Speaker, that has spawned so many of these organizations and so many of those individuals who throughout the world today are helping people in crisis. So I commend the work of the Mennonite Central Committee, the other organization that are active around the globe. As I indicated to the Premier (Mr.

Doer) in Estimates, I support the funding that has been provided through his department of Executive Council to support the work of Mennonite Central Committee individuals who are working around our province. There are many others involved in these efforts. We ow e them our thanks. We certainly owe the people of Darfur our consideration, our prayers, our good wishes, but more importantly

1002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 our call on those who are in a position to help to take action urgently, Mr. Speaker, to prevent further death and further atrocities in that part of the world. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: As previously agr eed, this concludes consideration of the MUPI. Now I'll call Grievances. GRIEVANCES Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on a Grievance. Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): It's certainly a pleasure to take

part in the democratic process, and at this juncture it's a Grievance. It allows us as opposition members a chance to address an issue of the day. It is a huge issue to each and every Manitoban and it has to deal with Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'm going to continue some of the words I talked about his morning in terms of Manitoba Hydro and, in fact, this government's role, direct role in Manitoba Hydro and how this government manipulates Manitoba Hydro.

Just over the next few minutes I'm going to take the opportunity to put a few f acts on the record, facts that I think all Manitobans should be aware of when they consider Manitoba Hydro. Manitobans are certainly familiar with the smoke and mirrors and the misperception that's often put out there from this NDP government, and today we're just going to have an opportunity to rectify some of those misconceptions and put some facts on the record. So, Mr. Speaker, it certainly gives me great pleasure to bring forward this grievance today. Mr. Speaker, we know there are a lot of issues before Manitoba Hydro.

Obviously the issue of the day is the discussion we're having with the east-west power grid going forward, bipole 3, if you will. It just seems to be day afte r day where we are getting information coming from different sources telling us what a bad idea this particular decision by the Premier (Mr. Doer) is to go down the west side of Manitoba. Quite clearly what's happened with our favourite Crown corporation is that this particular government has become directly involved in the management of Manitoba Hydro. Mr.

Speaker, when you have the CEO of a Crown corporation, in this case, Bob Brennan, come forward and say, from an economic point of view the corporation would like to build bipole 3 down the east side of Manitoba and then the very same day the Premier of the province comes out and contradicts his statement saying that we're going to build bipole 3 down the west side of Manitoba, this particular government has taken control of our favourite Crown asset.

I want to tell you a little bit about some of the financial implications of having this particular government manipulate Manitoba Hydro and the management of Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Speaker. I'm going to refer to the Manitoba Hydro annual report, the latest annual report referencing 2006-2007, and I refer to page 100. It talks about the financial statistics in here. The finance expense is an important line when you look at this particular financial statement because it talks about the added burden of debt that Manitoba Hydro is currently carrying.

Back in 1999, the financial expenses–this is debt-service money Manitoba Hydro has to pay every year–that figure was $411 million. The fiscal year ending March of 2007, that financial burden was $506 million. So we know, on an ongoing basis, this particular government has directly added to the increased costs of Manitoba Hydro. Just further down the ro ad, Mr. Speaker, if you look at–we're talking about long-term debt and current debt, and I'll just put these figures together for you. Back in 1999, the long-term debt and current debt for Manitoba Hydro was $6.8 billion. [interjection] This was 1999.

Move ahead to today, March 31, 2007. Total debt, $9.2 billion, Mr. Speaker, $9.2 billion; a $2.4 billion increase in debt incurred at Manitoba Hydro. Quite frankly, what has Manitoba Hydro built in the last eight years? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Going forward, we know Manitoba Hydro is currently building an office downtown in Winnipeg. We're not sure what the final cost of that particular building will be, but we're pretty well guaranteed it's going to be over $300 million, Mr. Speaker.

We know that that particular amount will have to be added to this current debt, so we know the current debt over the next year of Manitoba Hydro will be at least $9.5 billion of which we, as Manitoba Hydro ratepayers, will be forced to pay interest on that money. Now, Mr. Speaker, when we talk about bipole 3 going forward, we know the added cost by going down the west side alone will be at least half a billion dollars. That, again, will be debt that we as

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1003 Manitobans will have to service, and that amounts to $2,000 for every family in Manitoba. So what we know is this government with their hands-on management of our favourite Crown corporation has just added to the debt for each one of us going forward. There are a lot of issues in terms of the bipole 3. As I said, we have people coming forward each and every day to talk about the mistakes that this particular government is making. Just today in the Winnipeg Free Press we had an individual, an Andy Staudzs, wrote in to the Free Press .

Basically, he's saying the power line on the west side is a huge mistake. This particular individual has 40 years of experience in dealing with transmission lines and 30 years directly dealing with Manitoba Hydro and their transmission lines. He provides eight reasons here, Mr. Speaker, why the line should not be built on the west side of the province. Common sense would dictate that a line be built in the most direct route possible to provide Manitoba Hydro customers a direct avenue for electricity. Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba Hydro has a policy, a Power Smart policy, where they are trying to have Manitobans cut back on thei r energy use, and they spend millions of dollars every year trying to encourage Manitobans to cut back on their electricity use. We as Manitobans have responded to that. We have cut back on our energy use. * (15:10) The other thing we've done in Manitoba is we've also developed a wind farm in Manitoba, and we do have a number of megawatts of electricity that are developed there, less than 100 megawatts of power. I just want to put these in perspective for you, Mr. Speaker.

Given the extra kilometres of line that will be added to go down the west side of Manitoba, there's going to be considerable loss of electricity in that particular line. So, given that we're going to have that considerable loss of line, this means with that loss of electricity, we've actually wiped out any extra potential revenue that we've gained from that wind farm in Manitoba. We've probably lost, again, more power than what we're saving through the Power Smart programs implemented in Manitoba. So, clearly, from an energy perspective, it's not a very good decision.

We want to talk about the extra kilometres that are going to be added to this line, Mr. Speaker. We know that more miles of boreal forest will have to be chain-sawed down by this NDP government's decision to go down the west side versus the east side. The other thing that appears to have happened is that the Premier (Mr. Doer) may have sold out any possible opportunity to negotiate positive economic development on the east side of Manitoba. He signed an accord with First Nations communities back in April, which may have mitigated any future development.

We get a previous former NDP MLA caucus member coming forward, Elijah Harper, saying that he believes that this decision alone will cause devastation in their communities. They will live in poverty in perpetuity. So, obviously, we have a number of people coming forward, throughout Manitoba and across Manitoba, saying that this is a very bad decision. Mr. Speaker, I could go on and on and I'm sure members of my caucus will have an opportunity to bring forward their issues on this particular situation. I'm sure I am speaking on behalf of many Manitobans, not just this McFadyen opposition critic, but as many others.

Thank you very much. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you please canvass the House to see if there's agreement for Private Members' Business to be set aside this Thursday morning to consider the Committee of Supply, with the understanding that next Tuesday morning, the official opposition will bring forward a private member's resolution in lieu of giving up doing a resolution this Thursday. Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement for Private Members' Business to be set aside this Thursday morning to consider the Committee of Supply, with the understanding that next Tuesday morning, the official opposition will bring forward a private member's resolution in lieu of giving up doing a resolution this Thursday? Is there agreement? [Agreed] Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you please call the committee–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on House business? Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Offi cial Opposition House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker. Due to the

schedule change for this Thursday, in accordance with rule 31(9), I would like to announce that the private

1004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 member's resolution that will be considered next Tuesday is the resolution on Beverage Container Deposit System sponsored by the honourable Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). Mr. Speaker: It's been announced by the Official Opposition House Leader for next Tuesday, in private members' hour, we'll be discussing the resolution on Beverage Container Deposit that will be brought forward by the honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. Okay, th at's for the information of all members of the House. Mr.

Chomiak: Would you please call the Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Madam Deputy Speaker and the Chairs, please proceed to the respective rooms that you will be chairing. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH * (15:20) The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Daryl Reid): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of Estimates for the Department of Health. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I'd like to welcome back the minister and her staff along with you and other staff from the holiday long weekend. I just have a few questions. One question I want to wrap up on–the issue of West Nile virus as we had talked about over the last couple of days.

Just in regard to a vaccine, has the minister or her department sort of been keeping abreast of developments for a vaccine for West Nile? Mr. Acting Chair, I've heard varying reports and sometimes contradictory reports about the timeline for the possibility of a vaccine being available, although I do know that th ere seemed to have been some positive reports coming from certain scientists south of the border and indicating that we may have a vaccine sort of within the next four to five years. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Certainly, in consultation with the Chief Medical Officer of Health, Dr.

Joel Kettner, we have talked about the continuum of protection and mitigation exercises with larviciding and with fogging and the issue of personal protection. While we have posed questions to Dr. Kettner about availability of any sort of prophylactic exercise th at can happen with West Nile, at this time it's not part of the overarching plan as its availability has not yet been determined. So, Mr. Acting Chair, we'll be going forward, again, taking advice from the member opposite. On issues of communications he has some good ideas and we're open to them and continuing to take Dr.

Kettner's advice about what we can be doing today to be protecting ourselves against West Nile. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that. I don't have a lot of advice on the issue of a vaccine. I'm certainly not working on one in my basement or anything– An Honourable Member: Everyone has a hobby. Mr. Goertzen: –like that everybody has hobbies, but that's certainly not one of mine.

But I do know that there is work going on south of the border, and I think a rudimentary degree of research would show the minister–I’m sure that somewhere in the department they have this information about some of the work on vaccines that's going on, and it's important to keep abreast of those developments. I'm not suggesting Manitoba has a role to play in that, but we certainly have an interest in what's going on with the issues of vaccines and developments for it. Some sort of perfunctory or general questions for the minister that I'd like to get a response to.

If she doesn't have the information requested here, certainly taking it as notice is acceptable. Could she provide a copy of the department's organizational chart, including the names and titles of the individuals within those designated responsibilities? Ms. Oswald: I can go over the organizational chart for the member. Certainly within the Department of Health and Healthy Living, we have the position of Minister of Health, which I currently hold obviously; also, Minister of Healthy Living, the Honourable Kerri Irvin-Ross. We have a shared deputy minister in that department, Ms.

Arlene Wilgosh, and we have an associate deputy minister in charge of primary care

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1005 and healthy living, and that's Acting Deputy Minister Donna Forbes. Also, underneath Deputy Minister Arlene Wilgosh, we have cross department integration initiatives, Assistant Deputy Minister Marcia Thomson. Also under Deputy Minister Arlene Wilgosh, Mr. Acting Chair, we have Human Resource Services Director Mr. Watt; Legislative Unit Director Ms. McLare n; Correspondence Unit manager Ms. Wiggins. Under Minister of Healthy Living, we have Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat Executive Director Mr.

Jim Hamilton; Federal/Provincial Policy Support Executive Director Ulrich Wendt; Disaster Manage- ment Director Gerry Delorme. Following down on the chart, Corporate & Provincial Program Support Acting Assistant Deputy Minister Bernadette Preun; Administration, Finance and Accountability Associate Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer Ms. Heather Reichert; Health Workforce Acting Assistan t Deputy Minister Terry Goertzen; Regional Affairs Acting Assistant Deputy Minister Yvonne Block.

I've already mentioned Primary Care and Healthy Living acting associate deputy minister and Provincial Public Health officer, Dr. Joel Kettner. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for reading those into the record. I rec ognize one name, Terry Goertzen, on that list. I'm sure he does a fine job for the minister. I know he has somewhat of a political past that differs from mi ne, but we have some genealogy that we share. So, with those comments, could the minister indicate if any of those positions are new to the last year? If they are, were they hired by competition? Ms. Oswald: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, the position of public health chief Provincial Public Health Officer, Dr. Joel Kettner, is a new position that has been made out of the Department of Health and Healthy Living. The acting assistant deputy ministers, as mentioned before, are technically all new positions, and those individuals in their acting roles have been appointed to them. The competitions for same are in process at the moment or will be in the very near future. Mr.

Goertzen: Can the minister provide, perhaps not today, but if she can endeavour to undertake to provide a list of the positions hired or the individuals hired within her department over the last year, indicating on that whether they were hired by competition or appointment and any secondments to and from the department. Again, I don't expect her to have necessarily all of that here but if she could provide it at a future date. Ms. Oswald: Mr. Acting Chairperson, just for clarification, I can say that new positions in the senior management of Health are all by competition.

If I could just clarify, the member was asking for the new positions that we just talked about either of an executive director or a director or an assistant deputy minister. The member's talking about senior management he'd like to have a copy of? Mr. Goertzen: I'd be interested probably more generally individuals who have been hired into the Department of Health over the last year and any positions that were OIC'd and whether or not it was by competition or whether or not it was by appointment. Ms. Oswald: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, again I can indicate for the member that since I've been minister, since Arlene Wilgosh has been deputy minister, going back some time now, all new positions are done by competition. Again, the member is clarifying in the Department of Health new positions that have occurred in the last year, hirings that have occurred across the entire department or across senior management or executive management. * (15:30) Mr.

Goertzen: That's right, with the proviso that it's not necessarily people into new positions but just new people into the pre-existing positions or the creation of a new position, but really, anybody who's new to the department over the last year. Ms. Oswald: Again, for clarification, you know, we don't have a problem providing the member with information. I'm just clarifying one more time about the nature of his inquiry, bearing in mind that employees at Cadham Lab, Selkirk Mental Health Centre would fall under that category. It is a good number of people, but, again, is the member saying by OIC?

The answer to that is none. So I just want some clarification, respecting that the member himself has said that he's not interested in make-work projects for the department. To just get some clarity as to the scope of what he's talking about.

1006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 I believe he's asking a question about any direct appointments, of which there have been none, and I think he's seeking clarity on who in the last year has become gainfully employed in significant positions in the Department of Health, and what was their journey to get there. I think that's the spirit of what he's asking, so I will endeavour to do that without naming every technologist that was named at Cadham Lab. Mr. Goertzen: That's fine, Madam Minister.

Could the minister also provide, if she has it on hand here or in the future, a complete list of all the minister's expenses within the last year? Ms. Oswald: Yes, I can endeavour to provide that information for the member opposite. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that undertaking. I'm assuming that it'll include in that all-capsulizing request would be the minister's travel expenses, the destination, the purpose of the travel. Could she also indicate whether or not the department has funded any travel for the Premier (Mr. Doer) in the last year? Ms.

Oswald: Yes, I do believe that, through a freedom of information request, the member or a colleague may have some or all of that information already. We will endeavour to get that information to the individual. I can tell the member that through the freedom of information request that went out, there is a breakdown of transportation and travel, of accommodations and meals, of hospitality, and of communications. As I'm sure the member can appreciate, with an infant child I don't get out that much, so it will be a quick read.

Certainly, I have responsibilities on the federal-provincial-territorial level to travel to those meetings to represent Manitoba, and there have been one or two other portions of travel for the purposes of gathering information about programs, but that information can be made available to the member. I'm sure he will find it a disappointingly quick read. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I just want to ask the minister a few questions, and first of all, thank her for coming out to Morden to Tabor on August 16, I believe, was the date.

I know that, although she got caught up in the traffic, she did arrive, and we had a good meeting there. The tour at Tabor was certainly something that was very much appreciated by the board and, of course, the staff at the Tabor Home. I would ask the minister if follow up to that has been made, and if there's anything that she would be able to add regarding the hopeful new building that Tabor is looking for. Ms. Oswald: I want to thank the member for resisting the temptation to make fun of a city-slicker who got caught up on traffic on Highway 75 and didn't know the best route through Carmen.

What was I thinking? In any event, I took that route home at the member's suggestion and it was much superior to the journey out there. I also thank the member for the kind reception and the leadership that he's shown in the community of Morden in advancing their project. Certainly, the tour with the regional health authority and the members of the board was very instructive. Information that was conveyed concerning the general aging of the facility and the opportunities for renovation to provide even better service to the clients that exist there were very instructive, as I say.

The board and the staff at Tabor Home are truly to be commended for the incredible upkeep and work that they do on a facility that is older than many. I can tell the member that the information that we gained from Tabor has gone into our discussions and long-range planning on capit al infrastructure as we go forward with the resources that we do have. The need in the community was demonstrated by the people there, and we, of course, are under considerable–asked by a number of members of the Legislature for building capital, infrastructure.

Our commitment on same has been demonstrated, and I know that we can work with the region towards a solution that I hope is going to be very beneficial for the community. Again, I can say to the member that a number of his colleagues have also come forward during the Estimates process and, with really only one exception, have clearly stated and understood that everybody has a need in their community and would not put his or her own community's desires over the needs of others. So we will continue to work with the region to try to see this dream come to a reality.

But I appreciated the tour, I appreciated the information that I gained there and we are going forward in our overall capital planning trying to make these plans work for as many communities as possible. I do commit to the member, too, to keep him fully apprised with any developments as we go forward.

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1007 Mr. Dyck: I want to thank the minister for that answer. Just maybe to encourage her and the RHA and, of course, the Capital branch as they continue to look at this facility, I know that there are many others that are looking for a replacement as well. However, I think in order to help our debate in this one, of course, we're looking at it from a safety point of view; the old structure an d certainly the types of people and the degree of care that they require has dramatically changed over the last number of years.

What it was originally inte nded for has changed, and so now, of course, those who require care are needing much different type of care than was even 10 years ago. To add to the debate on this is, I just got the provincial electoral constituency population profile, the 2006. I think what would support our argument for needing a new facility is the fact that we had a 12.5 percent growth in the area. That is higher than most rural areas. I see the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen) shaking his head, but we are constantly in competition for growth and for size of families.

How do you like that? * (15:40) So, anyway, further to that, our growth is not only in certain sectors or areas or age groups, but it's fairly consistent right through. So, the fact that if we do, and certainly I have the understanding that we will replace that facility, that there will be a need for it in the years to come because we do have the growth in that area that wi ll certainly be able to use the facility. So I would encourage the minister to continue to work at, in fact, looking at the replacement of it sooner rather than later.

As I said, I can appreciate the fact that there are many demands on her and for facilities like that within the province. But, again, to reiterate, we do have the growth there, the sustained growth. It's not something that has just sort of peaked in the last little while and one would think that it would stop. I would say that that growth will continue. And any projections that have been made by any of the planners within the area just shows continued growth into the future. So if there's any response to that, I would appreciate it as well. Ms.

Oswald: Again I appreciate the member advocating for his community, and he has done a good job as has the regional health authority and the board itself of demonstrating population and increases and, not unlike the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen), they are in an enviable position. Some of our rural members are seeing the opposite scenario occur, and this is representing challenges. I've suggested to the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen) it must be because they like their MLAs so much they want to move there, but I know there are other reasons indeed.

I also would concur with what the member is saying about the acuity of patients, that the individuals that live in personal care homes today are not the same as they were 30 and 40 years ago. It's a different level of challenge of care, and in addition to wanting to make adaptations to the physical plant, as I've said to other members of the opposition, we also need to take a very close look at the level of care that's provided by the human resources in these facilities.

That's why we recently had a committee take a very close analysis of personal care home staffing guidelines, and we have received recommendations from that group. Those had not been adapted or really studied intensely since, I believe, 1973. And that work has now been done and bears out exactly what the member is saying, that the nature of the client is much different, the care needs are much higher.

And so we are committed to look at those recommendations and make very solid commitments of the human resource side to ensure that patients and personal care homes not only have the physical environment that the member is mentioning but that the staffing complement is appropriate for the needs in that home and that the nurses and health-care aides on the front line are able to have the support around them. And we look forward to being able to make public our plans in amending those PCH staffing guidelines in the very near future. Mr.

Dyck: Possibly, just to add to what the minister is saying that, as far as the duration and the length of time in the personal care homes now, I don't know what it would have been 10 years ago, but I know that today in both Tabor and Salem–Salem, which is in Winkler–I believe the av erage stay is two years. So they enter the facility certainly at the–how could I put it? An Honourable Member: Twilight Mr. Dyck: –the twilight of their years, yes, and, I mean, it's just a reality. My mother just, in fact, got into the personal care home in Salem two or three months ago.

She's 92 and, you know, very much aware of her time left on this earth here. So things have changed dramatically.

1008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 I guess the other point I just wanted to make as well was that the government continues to promote, and justifiably so, the whole area of immigration. We are the recipients of that within our area as is the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen), but I would say on that one I think we have him beat. So a lot of people immigrating into our area, and so that growth is sustained and while we do, you know, encourage that, with that the infrastructure needs to continue to grow as well, and this is a part of that equation.

So that's basically all I have for questions and comments, but again I'm encouraged by the fact that the minister is looking into it, and I would just encourage her to do it sooner rather than later. Ms. Oswald: Mr. Acting Chair, I take the member's encouragement with enthusiasm, and we will continue to work on providing as much information for him as we can on a timely basis as we work through this very challenging and lengthy list of requests for communities for infrastructure. I just wanted to comment on what the member was saying about length of stay. Of course, he's connected to his community.

He knows this to be true and he's absolutely right. I think that in partnership with the Minister responsible for Seniors (Ms. Irvin-Ross) and the Minister responsible for Housing (Mr. Mackintosh), work that is ongoing on our long-term care strategy to provide, in co- operation with regional health authorities and community groups, alternative settings for older Manitobans to choose rather than a direct route from their individual residences to a personal care home. Again, 30 or 40 years ago, we saw that really as a very direct path.

We now know the very nature of an aging baby boomer is very, appropriately so, accustomed to seeking a variety of options and not, necessarily, having one answer to one question. Mr. Acting Chair, we know that we want to have environments where there are supports for seniors in group living, for example, or other supportive housing environments, or even working hard to augment home care, so that seniors who want to stay in their communities, where their families are and their friends are, can do so even when they need a little bit more help and a little bit more support.

While we're looking at the construction and redevelopment of personal care home settings across the province, we're also working very diligently and listening to seniors who are saying: I'm not ready for a personal care home yet. I haven't reached that part of the twilight just yet. I need more help, but I need to have a different environment in which to dwell. We've had very good success in the first phase of our rollout of the long-ter m care strategy in rural Manitoba and in Winnipeg in making these adaptations. I will concede to the member that I wish we could go even faster.

We're going to work on doing that, but providing those levels along the continuum of what a senior might need for care, I think is very important. Lastly, I think the member makes a very good point about a very successful immigration strategy, but that also provides us with more challenges, not only just on the "how many beds do we have" side, but the kinds of supports that we have around that concerning language, and supports for coming to live in a new culture. I think that we always need to be working on that. Mr.

Dyck: I thought it was going to be my last question, but just as the minister was talking, it reminded me of another question I had regarding that whole transition part you were talking about from the senior housing, then, I believe, it's the assisted living and then to the personal care home, but anyway, that little gap in there. I know that our communities, both Morden and Winkler, and Manitou as well, they have really been looking at trying to fill that gap because– and the minister is absolutely right–people resist going to the personal care home as long as they can, and rightfully so.

I know that we're al l approaching that age ourselves. Some had a head start. One day we will get there, but I think we would all like to stay in our own accommodations and be as independent as possible for as long as we can. But, on the other hand, though, there is that gap right now because we've gone toward the higher-need individual in a personal care home, where we have that gap of assisted living. I'm just wondering if the minister has–are there supports for that? Is ther e encouragement to go in that direction? If she could just give us some information on that, please. * (15:50) Ms.

Oswald: I thank the member for the question. As I said earlier, in our first phase of the long-term care strategy, we have announced monies made available to regional health authorities to work with community groups, many of whom the member has cited or is aware of, that there are people in the

October 9, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1009 community that actively want to see a variety of options available to their parents and their grandparents. Very simply–because I did promise the Member for Steinbach (Mr.

Goertzen) I'd be shorter in my answers–so, very quickly, the process, of course, is for those community groups to partner with the regional health authority to put forth proposals of what kind of a situation they would like to develop because, of course, it is so important that these ideas come from the grass roots, come from the communities themselves rather than a region or a government saying: This is what we think you need. It's about a grass-roots approach. We have seen in the first phase a variety of supportive housing environments be supported by government and the region and the community groups.

We've seen supports for seniors in group living, congregate meals, th at sort of thing, come together. So there is a range of op tions that are available, but I would encourage the member to, if there's a specific community group in mind with a community idea, to speak with members of the region, or we can assist in facilitating that to bring their projects forward as we go forward with phase 2, and we'll see a range of options developing across Manitoba for our seniors. Mr. Goertzen: Thank you very much. I appreciate the questions posed by my colleague from Pembina.

We do have a friendly rivalry when it comes to population growth. I'm pleased to say that–I believe he's finished second again this year for population growth; he might dispute that, but I'm the last one who has the mikes, so it doesn't matter if he disputes it. It wasn't intended to be a segue from the Member for Pembina's (Mr. Dyck) questions on PCHs, and at the risk of turning the discussion somewhat macabre, I was asked to raise this issue, though, by LPNs in the issue of scope of practice and certain things that they can do.

The specific issue has to do with the practice of viewing the body following death, and again, this wasn't intended to be a segue from any other questions. But my understanding in talking to the LPNs, is there seems to be some sort of a dispute between who's responsible for ensuring that they are allowed to perform that particular function which, I understand, th ey've performed for many years. They indicated to me that the Department of Health said it was really the Chief Medical Examiner who is putting the restriction on.

They, I understand, met with the Chief Medical Examiner, and they were told that it was the Department of Health who is putting the restriction on. So we seem to be in this sort of classic catch-22 situation, and they simply want to know where the buck stops. So I'm going to simply leave that question with the minister and see if she can provide an answer either directly to me here or, at some point, for the LPNs because they sort of feel caught in the middle of this dispute and not sure where to turn for an answer. Ms.

Oswald: Certainly, I have met in past with the LPNs and discussed this very issue, and I will concede the point that, when they first raised the viewing of the body issue to me, I had, in and of myself, a rather macabre reaction, but became educated very quickly by the LPNs, as one can imagine, that there is just a pragmatic, an overarching sense, in the field of how this would function more efficiently. I can tell the member that certainly I indicated my support at that time for their ability to proceed.

I can confirm for the member that there are some challenges that exist between the LPNs, the College and the Chief Medical Examiner, the CME, and we're going to continue to work with the LPNs and the CME to try to come to an appropriate resolution of that dispute. We're meeting later this month, I believe, yes, later on this month with the LPNs where we're going to discuss this further. So, Mr.

Acting Chair, I can clarify that, from our perspective, we do acknowledge that there is a disconnect between the point of view of the CME and the LPNs and, again, we have indicated our support for the LPNs, as I believe has the College. So, we are going to endeavour to try to negotiate this current impasse to move forward so that the LPNs can indeed have that scope of practice taken care of. Mr. Goertzen: Well, I appreciate that, and I look forward to some sort of a resolution because I know they sort of feel that they are caught on a bit of treadmill here and not really sure where to turn.

I was educated on the issue, too, because I had sort of a similar response and didn't realize that this apparently causes significant delays in the process. People wait for medical care when they're alive and, apparently, they're waiting when they're dead. Obviously, there needs to be some sort of resolution

1010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 9, 2007 to that issue. So I look forward to the resolution coming from the minister and that meeting. On to a completely new and more enlightened topic in terms of the mood. I did receive correspondence, and I know that it's been sent to the minister as well, so this won't come as a surprise to her, nor should the correspondence come as a surprise. Dr. Gordon Dyck, in my riding has been quite active in trying to get IMGs here into the province, particularly into our region.

He wrote to the minister a couple of weeks ago with a concern that there seemed to be in his view a new requirement put in place in terms of mentoring for IMGs and he wasn't sure where this new requirement came from. It didn't appear to come from legislation. He wasn't sure if there was really a regulatory ability to have that requirement put into place. I'm not sure, the minister may have responded back to Dr. Dyck already with the answers, but from an abundance of caution, could she indicate whether or not she has a resolution to that for Dr.

Dyck and whether or not the issue of mentoring is something that's new to the province. Ms. Oswald: I can confirm for the member that certainly I have seen a draft response cross my desk, upon which I have signed off. Whether or not that letter has left the building, I can't confirm right now but certainly will endeavour to check. The issue of doctor recruitment and retention, of course, is a very important one, and I can let the member know that we are working diligently on our efforts to increase our international medical graduates.

We're doing that in a variety of ways, whether it's grants in place to help support doctors, whether it's what he may be referring to the medical licensure program for international medical graduates to help them get conditional registration. We know that since the program was created in '01, we've seen 30 or more foreign-trained doctors be licensed through the program.

One of the things we learned from doctors in the field and really learned from, for lack of a better term, the failures of individuals to either pass examinations or to have a career or an opportunity that was lasting in Manitoba or in Canada, was taking into account the not only requirement for an international medical graduate to ensure that they have th e skill set and the academic knowledge necessary to work in Manitoba, but there was an entire cultural element that was being left to chance.

This process that's in place now, a three-month mentoring, as the member opposite has cited, has enabled us to provide an environment for international medical graduates to be working with another doctor to be understanding procedures that are common in Manitoba or in our country that may be less so in other countries and helping doctors acclimatize to different environments in rural Manitoba, in pa

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-1-16b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 1st hansardpdf 16b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9caf0c95564756c0b22569941685ebca1bd3ca38

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