Volume XLI Wednesday Province of Newfoundland FORTY-FIRSTGENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Tra~scriptJ Number 21 28 June 1989

;. The House met at 2:00 p .m . MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! On behalf of han . members I would like to extend a warm welcome to 40 senior citizens from St . John 1 s, with their area leader, Bernadette Doyle. of St. John 1 s Parks and Recreation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome to the public galleries the Chairman of the Canada - Newfoundland OffshoJ"e PetrolE!Um Board. Mr. Jirn String, and Mr. Bill Hickey, DiJ"ector of Publ.ic AfFairs. They are heJ"e today to witness the tabling of the Boar·d 1 s annual report . Statements by Ministers PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Speaker .

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr . Speaker. I want: l:o rnak1 '' a statement to the House today concerning the events that occurJ"ed this morning in relation to the Sprung Project, but al: first I want to express my apologies l:o the han. l:he mE·rnber· for Humber Ualley (Mr. Woodford) For not making a copy oF the statement available to him until the last Few minutes; it just became available to me a fE!lAJ minutes beFore.

I am u er·y Ll078 atAJaJ"e, of couJ"Se, l:hat knowledgeable about he is this Jurw 28, 1989 Uol XI. .I whole matter, as much of what occurred this morning IAJas put in train IAJhile hE• was sti.l1 the minister responsible. I am announcing today that the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation, as repJ"'C:'sen'l:ed by Mr. J . R. ChalkE!J"', Q.C., was the succ essful bid de:~ r at this morning 1 s auction of the assets of Newfoundland Enviroponics Ltd. The purchase price was $3 million.

As han. members of this Houso arE• au..1are, the sale of assE•ts t;.Jas conducted by the receiver acting on behalf of the Royal Bank or Canada, who were realizing upon their security as first mor tgage holder. rhis loan is back c~ d by a deficir:~ncy <.:JUaJ"anl ~eE! i.11 U1t::• aJ Jt,Junt. of $7 million given by the fOJ"JrWJ"' government and, as such, the purchase pr·ice paid by NLDC cloc0s not represent any additional exposure or expenditure by government as the purchase price to be paid by NIDC will. be usee\ to reduce the amount goveJ"Ili'IIE'!nl: hi:is to pay on that ~J;7 rwi.1 '1ion g u a r a n t: e e .

S o i t :;.Ji .11 r e cl u c E' '· h R L by ~!>3 tni1lion. L'c'\u ·ing a n,o• 1. i·.·J ··~~~=· paid of $4 - rrr.i11ion and J.ec ;wing exactly the same arnounl: to bE! pa i.d as if the pr ic e ~ad not bee n p a i. d . As a rna t t: ~~ r oF Fa c 1: , l :·1 c:' v couJ.d haVE! bid ~!>4 rn.i .11ion. $f:) million. $6 mi1lion OJ" ~!>7 rni.ll'l.on and still not cos l: govE'J"nrnen l. any money. [ want to stre ss tran sact ion does not in I. h A l: l. h ·i_ S any t.'''':y increase government' s e xpo s~ re on this project.

GOUOJ"IllrJHnt hi'l~; r·::;o,o ·:chl::• c! ,;:: : Agreemc:!n ·t JArith l:he CUJ"J ":::o nl: opt::'rators of thE:' GJ"'E:'E!nhouse , Cabot Produce Ltd .. FoJ"' l:ht:' J"esale oF the asSE!tS to Cabot:. Hd .s agreement principle. No. 21 IAJaS J"E~clC hc:•d lALi . l:h i. n my 1~1.0'7 8

adminis tration 1 s full concurrence, by the previous administration . This agreement provides for the sale of the assets, with the exception of the land, from government to Cabot for a nominal sum . As well, it providr::~s for an up front payment from government to Cabot of $500,000, which represents the cost s government would have had to incur to shut down t.he facility, had it proceeded with simply shutting it down instead of taking advantage of this possible opportunity of it be ing successful under other management. Government has also agreed l~o lease l:hc:> land to Cabot for a nominal annual sum.

In return, Cabot has agreed to assume all re sponsibility for on go ing op E!ralion s at the faciJ.i ty and all costs associated th erewith. As well, Cabot will provi de a shar e of any future profits to government. I warn hon . mernbr::~rs not to hold their brE!ath, but hope springs eternal. To ensure that there is no possibility of g o vernrnC:~nt being call ed upon to fund shutdown costs ouer a rE•a s onabl (~ futurE• tim E:' hori zo n, Ca bot has agr el:'d to po st security sat is fa ctory to government in the amount of $500,000 for a period of lto~J O year s.

This lo~r.i.J.l be available to cover any PXCE!SS of shutdown cost s up to that amount should future asset sale proceeds not be ad equate to cover shul :dou.m co sts if Cabot terminat es oper ations . GovernrnE!nt \JJould hav e pine fel'-red to hav e tabJ.ed the full text of ·th E! agr ee rncC!n t in l:he House tod ay but . we have, at the reques t Cabot Produce, agreed to delay making the agJnBE!ITlE:'nt publi c until the dirE!Ctors of thE! company have had an opportunity to apprise their shareholders of the f~ll details L 1079 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI of the arrangement. will be made public the middle of July .

The agreem ent no lat er than I believe the action taken tod ay by Government is consistent with the stated policy of this adrninist1nation tJJh:ic h has beE:~n that we would take every reasonabl e step to see the greenhou se operation continue and the employment maintained, s~101nt of providing further op er ating subsidies . I feel tAle have tak en the firs t step toward s accomplishing this. Our· agr 0'0 rT1E!nt for sale of the ass ets to Cabo t is the second step in this proce ss and we feel that Cabot Produ ce Ltd. offers the best chanc e oF achieving cormnerci aJ. vi<:tb:l J.it.y of ' this ven tu Jne.

Th ank you, Mr· . Spe akE• in. SOME HON. MEMBER S: Hear, hea1n! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member For Humb er Valley. MR. WOODFORD : Th ank you, Mr. Spea ker. I did not have a copy of the Premier 1 s statement pl"evious to coming into the House but, neverl: .hE:~lE!SS, I cl.icl i'-<i:. Ll:!ncl t·:hE! auction this rnornin~1 . r: lo~Jas weJ .l. versed on Sprung over the last five or six months, beJ.ieve you rne. In c'\ny case, I lAIOIJld l.·i.k1::' l:o makE~ a fe1o~1 con1rnE•nts on l.:h~: • statement. First of all, I 'would ltk(! to ~;ay •o~li thout any hes ita t.io n l:.!l.'tl:.

I illC· !.: lAJit:.h thE! fll"E!l'TliE!ln Orl c'i C<JUplt:• of occasions previous to the transit ion, back on May 4, on a Thu rsd ay, and some of Uw conCE!J"ns he brought: up at tha ·t~ t:i.rne lo~Jel"(~! certa inly lr,,gil:irnate, l:hel"e is no No. 2 1 rx10'79

doubt about it. We talked back and forth rather freely and came to some kind of an agreement. I suppose. really. the one that is in place now. I hav e not seen the latest one, but it was pretty well one that would lead to the action this morning. But it came down to the eleventh hour, and this agreement was decided on rather than having the thing bulldozed, as the Premier said. and putting the people working out there out of work. Also. I would say l..Ui thout any hesitation that if anybody can make it work. the Dutch people are the people who can.

If I had see n anybody else bid on it thi s moring and g e t i t . I l/o.J o u l d s a y i t lAI a s primarily speculation. The $7 million loan guarantee wa s a deficiency guarantee and, as the Premier said, if anybody had to bid $4 million, $5 million or $6 million, or whichever, the gov er-r1JTIE'!nt would have been able to top it up, up to a maximum of $7 million and st ill come out t..uithout it costing government any more expenditul ~es l:han had , which \Alas appr ox im ately $2 1 mil lion. There will be no additional monies go into it at this point, as long as the guarantees are honoured.

The big thing t.J.Iith this is that government now has control, something that they did not have before. As long as the Sprungs tAlE! ~~ e 5 0 I 5 0 s h a ~~ ''' h o 1 d ~~ r s tAli. l: h N F L • you could not do anything. My hands were tied as the minister; I could only jump back and forth betlAic~en the p1~0.ss and Sprungs and whoovc•J~ E!lse !Alas involvc:•cl. U1e1ne were a lot of things I want.c•d l:.o do but just could not.

It was just, I guess, onE! of those things that 1..uas set up in the formation of the company in the first place, and it was something you just Ll. 080 June 28, 1.989 Vol XU could not do once it went into receivership. The ironic thing about this. in sitting there this morning listening to th e auctioneer. t..uas that I u.Jas one of the ones responsible for putting it into receivership. But, th~ :!n, again. how could you get you1n hands on it? I t l.1.Ja s o u l:. of control. You ju st could no t t.E•J..l them anything, they had tunnel vi"s ion and they would not J.i s ten .

Every t".irne a problem Ci.'llTJe up, they threw a body at it instead of asking for advice in trying to solve it. So, now you have control and it. is up to the Premier and his colleagues to make SUI''e t.~haL Lhc:' agl~eemr::!nt t~hat is supposE'!cl to havr::! b e e n p u t i n p 1 a c e lAri 1 l b E~ !') u t i n place and that those eighty or eighty-Five people who 0re out there are kept working. As I said befoJne, iF thE•In t:\ is anybody lAJho can make this work, it is the Dutch.

No ITia.l:.tPln lAihom I talkl:!d l:o involved with enviroponics any1..uhere in l:he tAJorld. anyi;.JhE!I"e in Nol"th ArnE~lnica' anywhelnE! in EUl"OpE!' l:he only question as\<l>cl oF :ne, in four O!" five lilonlhs <:,~; mi ni.sLr' •i", \;.lCiS, 1'11"'. Woodfu;"d, :.uh y L "i.:·: .~u( : working? Never, never did they say it cannot work. The only p l a c e 'l o u s -'HAl t h a t c o rn ·i. n rJ f I" o rn t.1F·1 :; \:.he Opposi ·t.inn, IAJh '"i.ch ·is n;,,f:.UI"•'tl, I suppose, being on the opposit.r::~ side of the House.

It was the AJ.bat.ross around gover·nrnc::'nt' s nE:'ck dild l~he Oppos·it::ion ur:: ·.!It:! ,·Ja~/ figuin(;!d :i.l :. IAIOLJ1d han~) on Lo U:clf\ ::tnd choke l:hc ,•ln. Prnbably it worked, I do not know. It probably hc::>1ped. I n a n y c a s e , f r· o m e v E! I" y q u P s l.·. i. u n [ asked of experts all over the world, the Du Lch a1ne t::'XFll?.rt.s in the:' field of hydinoponi.cs. As soon a s t h e y c am l:' h c:~ r e ·t h e y s d lAI i l:. IAI a s something that should have No. 21 I~ lOBO

worked. Why did it not work? It may be only history . None of us may be around to see the final

chapter of Sprung . As far as I am concerned, on a personal basis, Sprung will work because those Dutch people are in there. They will make it work . No company is going to come in and pay $21 million for anything, especially when it is not shown the bottom line is black. We do not expect them to. Whethet~ it be the Dutch, who hav e world -class expertise, or u.Jhether it be th e Onassis family , anybody with mon <~y, nobody is going to take it if it is losing. In this case, as far as I arn concernr-.:1d, they IAii.ll stal~t off with a clean shE!et.

Whatevet~ thE! final agreement is, the facility will sU.ll bE• there. And, as I said last week, the election is over . Forget it! Let us rnake sure that place works for l~he good and the betterment of everybody in this Province o f N e IAlf o u n d 1 and and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. GIBBONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am pleased to inform han. mernber·s today thal: N•c!IAJfound1ancl and Labrador Hydro h~s successfully cornpl~'!ted a 1ong tcJ"iTi financing arrangement in the Canadian market.

Hydro raised ~tl::?S rnilJ.ion l~hrough ;1 ::?S \l~'dl" bond issue. The bonds bear :interest at 10 1/2 pE:•r cent, WE!re sold at par and arE:! guarantE·ed by l~he Pt~ovince. The funds tAJi1l be used to finance Hydro's ongoing captl-.al wol~ks progr·am. The~ issue Ll081 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI was sold to a syndicate of Canadian Underwriters managed by ScotiaMcleod Inc., RDC Dom ini on Securities, Merr ill Lynch Canada Inc., Richardson Greenshield s of Canada Limited and Wood Gundy Incorporated . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. 5peakE!r. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Leader of lhE! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mt~.

Speaker, fit~st of all, Jet rne thank the han. minister for providing us lAJith a cupy of Ud.s tatement. Obviously l:hE! Ftnanc.ial guaranl:E!E! of the'! Pt~ovincE• is s l:.i11 worth sornethin~ '.in Lhe bond rna r k E! t , s e ,,,, i n g t h a t H y eli~ o c iHl raise $12S million . But we arG pleased that l:his could happen <:Hl d tAle look Fol~tAJard to Hydro Cd i" Y'Y i.iltJ out a significant capital wnrks program __ '.in l~he Province t.his y1~d1~, providing some upgrading of energy facilities and also, oF course, providing much needed jobs foJ" l:hr:! people of N1:•!!Jfound1and ,uJ d Lab r ad I.H' SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPf::AI<Er~ : Before getting into Oral Q u e s t i. o n s , I IA.I o u l d Li k e t o tAle 1 c o rn r:! to the Speake! ~ 1 s Ca1l~H'Y on 1::><::1ha1F of ell] rTIC'IflbOI "S , a r·ol"frlC'i" Spuc:t ki;•i" o F l~ h e H o u s 1:1 a n cl 111 c• 1 1; :·11::. r ,_., ;~ Le wisport e, Mr. Jim Russe ll. SOME HON. MEMBERS : ih 'ar , hear I Oral Questions MR. IUDEOUT: No . L: 1 I~ i 08 1

Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: My question is for the hon. the Premier. No doubt the Premier is aware that the former Executi~e Assistant to the Minister of Municipal and Pro~incial Affairs (Mr. Gullage) has made a number of ~ery serious allegations pubJ.icly, not pri~ately but publicly, to the press and so on in the Pro~ince .

In ~iew of the fact that those allegations range from accusing the minister of lying about certain contractual obligations and work responsibilities, and so on, in the depaJ"tment, to saying that a certain application for grant funding JJJas appro~r:~d, and so on, and because of the Fact thal:, since at least yesterday, tht:' minister is saying that the former Executi~e Assistant is lying and the former Executi~e Assistant saying that the minister is J.ying - ob~iously this kind of thing is not doing anybody any good and adding any credibility t.o an~tbody can tht:~ Pl"E!!Tii<:!l" lE!ll thE• Hou:;e whether or not he has had an opportunity to in~estigate this situation, the alh>gat.ions l:.hat are bEdng made publicly, and if he has, could he inform the House what tht:' results of any such in~estigation might ha~e been?

MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Prerni.E!I" . PREMIER WEI LS: It could hardly be calJ.C:·d an in~estigation. rt takes l:he for'm of a number of discussions with the minister before and after l:he e~E!nt of Ml". Baird's rE!Signation . The minister has kr:'pt me inFormed alJ. along. I am totaJ.ly satisfied l_l () 13 2 June 28, 1989 Vol XI..I that the minister's position is completely correct. I accept what the minister has said. I point to a rathr:~r incomprehensiblE• position taken by Mr.

Baird that he is going to ha~e a responsibiJ.ity in determining go~ernment policy and announcing or· declaring governrnE!n l·.: policy and giving undeJ"takinrjs. I do not know what his concept of an Executi~e Assistant is, but that is not the role of an Executive Assistant and I really do not accept Mr. Baird's position in that regard. MR. RIDEOUT : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The han. r:he Lead e 1~ Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr'. Spr:~aker', in viE!lAJ oF that Mr.

Baird alleges contributed thousands of of· l:h e the Fact to have dollars in cash and other' services to the minister's re-election campaign this i.s the aJ.l.egation; I arn not saying it is a fact, I·H~ is a11eg i ng it --· and in v iet-ll oF U 1i:! Fact that Mr. Bai rd says he did that b c causE! !:: h f'' r r'! u,Ja ~; a ci r:o <.-c 1 l h <'1. i:. would give him a high payinq job in go~ernment and. one of influence in government, does the Prem ier take those allegation s seriously and has he had those investigated? If hf~ has, could hr:• tell us tJJhat l:he J~esults oF thal: investigation is? Mf<.

SPEAKER : The han. the Premier. PRE:MIER !J'JI::U .:3: Aga:in, I have spoken to the minister concerned. He te1ls me thel"e never tAJas any such cl ea l and I ha~e no reason to doubt his word on it. He also tell~; rne l:.hat Ml". Baird l.lla s a Cc~rnpa:i .gn ITlc\naqel~ rOI" No . 21 R\.082

the minister, that is quite accurate, and so contributed some significant service to the minister's election and perhaps to the overall success of the Liberal Party in the recent election. The minister there were contributions campaign. also advises rne that no such cash to the minister's AN HON. MEMBER: None. PREMIER WELLS : No. He tells me that - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER WELLS: That is my recollection of it. I did not have an investigation of it, I had a general conversation on it, but if therE! is any rE!ason for doubt I will certainly go back and pursue it. He did tell me that Mr.

Baird contributed l:he USE!, I believe, of a photocopier or a typewriter or both, or something of that nature. I assume that that may be part of it. I do not kn otAJ wh at hE! ha s done in l:he way of cash contribution . I understood there tAJas none. I tAli .ll have it pursu1=>.d and I will certainly let the House know. MR . RIDEOUT : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: ThE ! hon . the LE!ader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr . Speaker, Mr . Baird ·is quoted as saying that he remembers specifically per sonal cheques for $500 and $1,000 being deposited to the campaign acc ount.

In fact, Ll083 June 28, 1989 Vol XU one of those cheques was USE!d to get the campaign started, to open up the account. More particularly, in view of the fact that Mr. Baird is making th ose serious allegations about a minister of the Ctnown, is not the Premier prepatned l:o investigate the other side of tho se allegations, and cleatnly, one L1Jay or another, once and for aJ.l, absolve or otherwise the credibility factor, th e credibility problems facing his minister right now? MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: The simple anstAJeJ~, Mr.

SpeakHJn, i.s y (;~ s , I a Ill p In E! p iH' E• d t o i·w a r· t h ,,,, o the r side . I cun q u i t :,' an x i. o u :> to . I haue not had any cont act fr'om Mr. Baird . Mr. Baird kn otAJS wh E!rE! hE! can reach JTJU at any tirnt:• that he feels he has sorneth :lng to contribute to this, and pE!rhaps I IAlill endeavor to seE:~k him out. I had no reason to accept the position thal: he lAJi:1S taking IAri.l:h respect to deciding input into government polic ies. IL is jus t tot a 11 y in c on sis t E' n t uri t.. h t i ·: ::• position of an Execul :ive As sist .ant to the MinistE!r.

So I discoun tod l:he tAJhole thing. If Mr . Bair 'd wants t:o tal k to rnl :' I lAiou Jd i::l(! happy l:o rneet lAJith hi1n at dny time, and I will probably Sf:'!Uk out an oppolntunity Fo1n Mr. 13ain~ oueJ~ the nE•xi': day or so, to talk to IY. i.rn . MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr . SpHaker . MR . SPEAKER: T he~ hon. i:hc L :'! a c/ :,! I" uf l: h tc! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Sp~)aker, I thank UH:! Pr'I :'JTJi1 0ln For his an~wer in that rHgarc/. No . 21 Rl0!\3

The Premier will also know that Mr . Baird again alleges quite publicly that the only reason why he parti cipated in the re-election campaign for the minister was that there was a promise of payoff, job opportunity and influence , after th e e 1 e c t ion wa s o v e r , if t he Party that the: ' Premier leads uJOn the government. Now would the Premier not agree that if that allegation is true then that is a serious allegation, and on e that ought to be investigated because, quite frankly, I guess it smacks of buying favout~ or graft or corruption or whatever you want to put on it?

If that kind oF allegation is true, would not the Pr emier . in vi ew of th e stand ard of conduct that he wants all. ministers to live by, undertake to have that thoroughly investigated? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the P-remier . PREMIER WELLS: I have heard the allegation for l:he fit~s t t.irne now as l:he hon. !:.he Leader oF the Opposition speaks it. Yes, I t.t.Jill undertake to have it examined to see if there is any v a 1 i d i t y l: o i t . I c a n ~; <:<. y t: o y o u that it is totally inconsistent t..uith everything that Mr. Baird has said to me in the past and has said to me since the election took place.

That is totally and cotnpletely tnconsist:c.:•nl: u.JiLh eVE!ry thing hE! h<:1s said to me. He 1nay have sc1.id it, and if he did I wiJ.l certa:i.nly exarrl'ine the lnt:•col~d d. n d s p t:• a k t.u :i. !: h r-1 r . 3 a i In d t n d --~ :.! e what the situation is. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : 1_1081~ June 28, 1989 Vo1 XI.I The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, the PrE!miE!r as a lawyer, no doubt, I assume, would defend very vociferously the principle that all ci tiz ens ar e equal bE•fore the law.

The PrE:'ITi iE !In as a lawyer must adtnit -that ignorance of the law is no defense. Now -the Premier is aware that his Attornt:1y General and Minister of Justice (Mr. Dicks) has admitted pubJ.i cly that , knowingly or unknowingly, h~ :! ha s failed to live up to the provisions of The Conf1i ct OF Interest Act, specifically Se c-U.on 4, Subsection 9(a). Now, can l:he Prc?.rnic;:!r tell l:he HouSE! w~wther or· nol: hE! i~ ; prepared lo tolerate that situation, wh<~1ther that fits into his standard of conduct guidelinc:>s a s a P r e rn i e r , o r lAJ h e t h e 1n t i·H:!

P1ne1 'nier· 'is p1nepared l:o ensun:• that the min·i.s ter is trE!ated the sarnE! as all other NewFoundlanders and Labradorians would be treated if IAJG k n OLL.Ji n q l y 0 In U n k ll !)I.L.J'i 11 (~} y cl j_ d not 1 i v e u p to ·!·: he 1 c:• L l.: !o' r· o f L he . 'I .l. dliJ. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . l:he Pre•nic~r . PREMIER WELLS: Yes, Mr. Speaker . Any and every member oF the House oF Assernb1y, Lv h e t h e In h C:! j_ s a n 1 c 1 Tl b e r· o F l: h c:! Cabinet, L h::~ Sp,~ak(~r~ u I~' <) n LhC! opposit:e side, lAJho is in the law. will have the a p p 1 i. e cl to L h i'l t:. m l'! m b C:!

I'' . no quesl:i(.ln aboul: il: .. bi"E!C\Ch of I' u L] 1 ~-\W The inE' ·i ~; i d \) (-" 'l n quarrel with that pr·oposit:.i.on. That will be the case. However, the presumptions that pine;:! fa C c?d l:he ques tiorb by l.: he? Leader oF the Oppo s :i.l':.-.ic) 11 cH'P not, No. /.1 R'l.08t~

in fa c t , cor r e c t . I s aw a headline in The Sunday Express saying the minister broke the law. That surprised me: The Minister of Justice broke the law . I looked at it, and I heard people make the allegations. I have spoken to the Minister of JusU .ce. I have examined the full facts, and I see no evidence that the minister broke the law or that the minister did anything any different than all other members on both sides of this House have done in respect of the matter.

If the minister broke the law, and if that is determined by other than the editorial board of The Sunday Express.. or the hon. the Leader of the Opposition - with great respect to him, he:! is nr:dther a judge nor a lawy E!r' and I do not accep t his judgement any more th an I acc ept the judg ement of The Sunday Express in that regard but: if the minist er or any other member, including the Leader of the Opposition, including me, including the Speaker, including former ministers and present ministers, have broken the law, the law will be appli ed . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

RIDEOUT: Mr. Speake1n, I haue no particular difficulty with what the Premier is saying, but preaching about it is r:ot going to addJness l:.he sirnplt:~ fa c l : oF t h P rna U .. E! 1~ that is facing the people of this Province today . If one oF us has failc::>d to file o u r C o n F l i. c l. o f I n t 1:• r rc• s t f o J" 111 p 1n o per 1 y , l e t i t be k no IAJ n , l e t it be brought up. I arn noL at.~Jare of it.

We are aware l:hat the Minister of Justice and the M:Lnister of Forest1ny, two ministers Lhe Pr~~rnie1n says hE• Ll085 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI quizzed Cabinet, property Conflict they went in before failed holdings Of Interest to disclose undE!r Th e Act. MR. SIMMS: No, not the Minister of Forestry. He disclosed his. MR. RIDEOUT: The Minister of Fores try disclosed his, that is right. The Minist :er of Justice did not di sclo se all the things he should have disclosed under SE!Ction 4 of th e act, as I understand it. PREMIER WELLS : Who said so? MR. RIDEOUT: Who says so?

The minister has sa:id so publ :i.cly and ha s scdd so in this House . He said he did not do it knowingly, but he said th a t~. on rc+lection. he did nol: disclos:~ all of what he should have disclosed. Now, in rninistE!In view of admits thE! he:• Fact the had legal advice fi"C)In Lhe Deparl:lrllH1l:. oi=- Jusd .cr=> on 1.uha i: hu should or should no t. disclo ..:.t• , .. ~ :·td Ln U 1 C!UJ of the fact that most of us in this HousE! do not have l:ha t k.i nd of se1n1Ji.CE! avail.ab]c=• Lou~; . and :.in ui<'IAJ of l:.he fact l:hal- I ;·iccepl- .

I am not a gE!ntJ.ernan lea1nned j n I· .. he law, can the Premier te1l us ho1.u carne hE! could to1E!rate a m.i.nis l.E!I". particu1ar'1y a Jninisl':.ce!Jn IAJho is 1 c•a :-- l'l(!d in L he J.atAJ '-'1 nc! J"C ;: c:··.i l! c::•cl a d v i c 1?. r i" (_) ITI L h 1?. D c:• p a r' l: ITI (! n L 0 ,_- Justice, fai1ing to disclo s0. properly all of those things he should have disc losed und er T ~o Conflict Of IntPrest Act? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE:!aln! MR. SPEAKER : No. 21 Rl085

The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: With great respect to the han. the Leader of the Opposition, I believe he probably sincerely believes the claim he made that the minister failed to disclose what he should properly have disclosed. Now, if that has in fact occurred, the minister and everybody else who is in the same boat will have to meet the requirements of the law, will have to answer to the law for their Failure. But, I do not accept that that is in fact what happened and I do not accept that that is in fact what has occur1ned.

So I would like the Leader of the Opposition, if he is going to pursue this line of questioning, to tell me specifically what he is talking about. What offense has taken plaCE!? In what way has thr:~ minister offended The Conflict Of Interest Act? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speai<E!r, it. i.s up to thE! Premier to answer the questions. I wilJ. direct them.

Let me ask the Premier this: If the minister fulfilled all the rE!quirernents of The Conflict Of Interest Act, then why was it nE!Cessary, two or threr:~ or four days after it became a pubJ.ic issue, for the ministE!r to file an arm>.ndment to his Conflic ·t of Interest statement? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hea1n! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, the ministe1n may have L1086 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI be 1 i e v e d it was n e c e s s a r y at t he time and took the proper step, may have bE!lieved that it lAJas necessary to file an amendment. It does not make a dE!termination that it was.

I do not accept that it was. I mean, that has happened before. It has happened to a former Premier here who had to come in the House and say, 1 I forgot to make a statement on my conflict of interest that my wife 1 or somebody - 1 owned or had an interest in a piece of land. I should have fiJ.ed it. I overlooked it. 1 No grE!at fuss or todo was made about it. The minister, when this w~s suggested by a newspaper or by others, said, 1 WE!ll, :if that ~ls w h a t was required , I a rn happy l~ o make sure I comply and File an amendment irnrnediate1y . 1 What: I do not accept :is that it was necessary to do it.

I acu•pl: l':h::- fact that he did it. I understand that he did in fact do :it. I do not accept the assertion that il:. was legally necessary to do it . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Lead1;;r oF t~ he Oppo sit ion . MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I refer the Premier to Hansard oF June 27, 1989, page null'lber' is R1034, and the Minisl:eJn oF Just·ict?. is responding to qUE!SLions that. I had r'a:isE!d.

And tho Minisl:t:!J" of Just:ice said: 1 '1t uJa ~; d:iscc :HJE•tnecl" that :is, the fact t.hal': CE!ln ta in matters were not d'i.sc]osecl in h.i.~; cl:isclosure stat:)JTIE!nt 1 'by !ill/ department that it ~:;houJ.cl bt,• ('J. l.te•d before we were sworn in . 11 MR. SIMMS : By the oFficials, the experts . No. 21 I~ 1086

MR . RIDEOUT: By th e experts. Most of us do not hav e that kind of e xp ert advi ce availabl e to us. The Pr emi er is searching, is he? PREMIER WELLS: Well, tell me wh ere it is! MR . RIDEOU T : 11 Mr . Dicks 11 on th e bottom right hand sid e of R1034 . MR . SIMMS : He just read it for you . MR . RIDEOUT: Th e s econd la st sent enc e: 11 It tJJa s di scovered by my de par tment that it should be f i h~ d bef ore we wer e sworn in. 11 MR. SIMMS : By his off icials. MR . RIDEOUT: By hi s officials in Justice .

Now, most of us do not have tha ·t kind of advice available to us, and we could then, I suppose, maybe r:~VE!n legitimatE!ly arguE:' that it u1as something that we did not know, even though that is not a defence. But since it had been discovered by the minister 1 s officials before he lAJas sworn in , did not the Minister of Justice tell the Premier about this particular holding. And if not, why not? PREMIER WELLS : Mr . Spea ker. MR . CHAIRMAN : The '1on . the Premier· . PREMIER WELLS: I do not know tJJh at the member is referring to. What this says to me, and I road it: 11 Jusl~. several obsE!rvations.

It tJJas not all of Ll087 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI the members. Upon as suming the office of Minist er, on e of my first things wa s to go and try and get this matt er handl ed in the proper fashion . It was not, for reasons I w ill not go in to. Essentially what happem~d wa s the day we were sw orn in to l:he House, it had not b ee n filed at t hat time. 11 That is, l:he confl :ict of interest sta tem ent had no t bee n filed . 11 It was di scove re d by my department that it should be filed , 11 nam ely th e conf lic t of interest stat ement should be fil ed, so it was fil ed .

I do not know what th e point of the ques tion is. It says nol:hing about the conte nt of it. MR. SPEAKER : Th e hon. the LE!adel~ of t h iC' Opp os itio n. MR . RIDEOUT : rhank you, Mr . Sp E:'aker . I will carry the Premier along. H e i s g e t t i n g t h e 1~ e . S l o t.u l y b u t surely he is getting there.

I would like for the PrE!tniEH' to go to Hansard of Junl: ' 27, on Lh e nc·x t. page, L1035, tJJh e l~e l:he rninisl: c:;r clearly indi cates ~ha t , in thP middle Of the paragraph : II rhat is in there, and I clearly indica ted to the member of the pre ss, who E•xarninE•d rne on that and C"\SkE·cl 1rw q u e s -t i o n s , t h a l: I o v l' 1~ 1 o o k ~~ d that, that in overlooking this Fot~m, I did not rE~alize al': Lhe time,' that probably to sLdcl.l !t comply tJJil:h l:h e act" ... an d so on.

And th E! rrri.nis ter aclrnit s agc d n that he was advised by ofFi cia1s in his department that hE' shou 1cl rnake dnoth er di sc lo s u 1~e Now, Mr. SpE!aker, thE! que' S t.:i on cornes back again to the 'fac l: that the Pt~errri.er quizzE:~cl, so he said publicly a week or ten days aqo , all mernb(!t~s of CabinE! l~- befoi ~E ! No . 2 1 Rl08'7

their appointment to Cabinet. Now is this in conformance with the questions that the Premier would have asked those prospective ministers and in the answers that they gave to the Premier , or were the answers the problem and not the question? PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS : The problem is the distortion of what the act requires. There is a suggestion here that failing to report that a company, in which l~he member owns shares, also owns land, is somehow failing to comply with the act. rhal~ is where the han. the Leade1n of the Opposition and I disagree.

I do not think that that is a failure to comply. What the minister said in the House is this. Here is what hE! said specifica1ly.

The Leader of the Opposition skips over it by saying, 'and so on,' but here is what he said: "That is in there, and I clearly indicated to the member of the pinE!SS 11 - SOITIC:! rnE!ITib£:!r of the media had called the minister -· "who examinE!d mE! on that and ask::-d me questions, l~hat I overlooked that , that i.n looking at this Form, I did not realize at the time that probably to strictly comply IJJith the act, I should have included, in addition to disclosing my corporate holdings v.Jhich I did do, I would also and should have probably included l~he land that was owned by the company, being at 96 Wr,~s t Street." "I shou1d probably have." say to thE! mini ster, that what the act says.

MR. SIMMS : L1088 Junl"! 28, J.989 We 11, I is not VoJ. XU What? PREMIER WELLS : It is what he said. I am reading what he said. "I would also and should have probably included" - MR. TOBIN: You are the judge! MR . SIMMS: What are you saying now? PREMIER WELLS : I am saying that you are misreading the statutr:'. The members of the House sitting hE!re presently have not disclosed that. The FoJ~mer MinistE!l" oi::- JustiCE!, Min. OttenheiiTIE!r, did not.. disclose that. Dr. Collins did not disclose il: .. It is n<Yl r e q u i r 1:! d . W h a l~ L h e a c l~ I" e q u :i I" 1,, s is thr:qne, yo,u see.

Just r1:!acl i'l: .. Do not distort the thing and rnak::! a mountain out of a molehill. ThE'! act is fairly simple and fairly clear. AN HON. MEMBER : You do not need to shout . PREMIER '.NELLS : W (! J. J. , i f y 0 U W j J. J b (! q U :i. (' t_ 1 \.:.I L ].J. not have to shout. It is when the ITIE~mbers opposite keep int.erjE!Ct'.i .ng thai~ I have to shout in orciE!r t~o br=' heard. So just bE' qu iet ancl J will tell you what the act says.

What the act says is this: ''Without J.i1n'itc.'l.tion of sub- -suc:.t.:i.un (3), the disclo s tl l":~ sl·a l:l'lfl<:' nt shall, whether or not a possibility of con fl ict wiLhin Lhi? Tnl"!i.HLing of ~ubsecl:ion

(3) E!Xi:;L.~; i ll I~ fO' S p 1°! C l:. 1: h lc' r (' (I f' , S p 1:' C l [0 Y : ( ,') ) all land in the Province ov.Jn E!d"­ and then in brackets- "(in JJJhole or in part or directly or indirectly through any person, company, firrn or body or ot:hel"lJ.Jisr:, house, hoJJJsoever) by l~hc> rnelflber." No. 21 rnose

The land is the land owned by the member. Now, if it is he 1 d by the Roy a 1 Trust Company in trust for the member, he must disclose it even though it is in the name of the Royal Trust Company. If it is held by John Jones on behalf of the member, he must disclose it, even though it is held by John Jones, because the land is owned by the member. Now, if the land is owned not by the member but by a company, whether the member has a 25 per cent interest in it, a 50 per cent interest in it, or 100 per cent interest in it, the land is owned by the company. That is why, for example, Dr.

Collins did not disclose on his Conflict of Interes t statement the fact that Terra Nova Inv est ments, or whatever the name of it was, owned the land down on Bonaventure Avenue. That is why other members are in exactly the same boat, did not wd_t.e on the Conflict of Interest stat~;:~ment the company in which they had shares because it. does not require 'it. This is a total distortion and misr ep resentation of what the law, in fact, says . problem with it. The minis l:er t.uas surprise. 'If something wrong, it right away,' and he corrected is cornmE!ndable. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . RIDEOUT : Mr .

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the Opposition . So there is no caught a I have bit by donE! I want to correct and he went out it. I think that Leader of thE! Ll089 June 28, 1989 lJol XLI MR. RIDEOUT : I suppose now we will soon see from the han. the Premier judgements, legal advice and references to back up what his

interpretation is. It is certainly different From the

interpretations received from Lhe solicito1~s to the rrr.inistHr' in Lh1~ Department of Jus liCE!, the expel~ t.s in the Department of Justice. I want to ask the Premier this question, Mr. Speaker. Over the last several days we have se en certainly two, maybe thr ee examples of problems with disclosure by min isters in his government. Ci:'ln l:he Pl"(clflil:'l~ tell the House whether or not he is aware of any other potential conflict of - interest rnat.tro •J"S, ot· J~e al For that mal:l:: 'r, am on q an y of hi s ministE•rs, or any po ss ib lP problem 's with failing to disclo~ :·:· othE•r items?

Are thro!r E· any oti·H:!I~ similar circumstances of potential conflict.s of int -.erest that the Premier might be aware of with any other minister in the government at this point in time? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Th1~ anstAJer l:o that:, Mr. Speakt:!r, i s n o , b u t I a 111 a p p 1 y i n g L_ i 'r r;· 1 i'UAI as I know l:he law, nol: Lh 1~ ministE!l"' s w.::~ird construction of- l:he J,at.u. If some JninisLt:'r OlAJI1S shares in a company that owns land i'tnd l:he land is not: spt:•cih .ca11y r 1:!

F E! r 1~ e cl l o , I cl o n o t k n o tAl tAl h c· l:. h :=• J" l:hat is so or nol:, buL [ ._-.In not aware of i l , c e r lain 1 y . r"'R. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of lh( ! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : M1~. Speaker, I do not·:_ pi"Ofes s to No . 21 Rl089

the be the legal interpreter of the law that the han. gentleman is . I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Health. Could the minister tell the House if he or any company which he controls holds any financial interest in any health care facility in the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health . MR. DECKER : Mr. Speaker, they digging deep now, are are really they not? MR. RIDEOUT : Well, that is part of my job. MR.

DECKER : citizens 1 lhe first just not I usE•d to own a SE!nior home when I tAJas elecl~ed time, but it was conveniE!nt for me to home so I sold it Manor, who still own the home in Roddickton. operate lhe to Caudelle and operate MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Leader of the Opposj.tion . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon. the minister was could the minister tell the House - I LoJilJ. ask him again - if he or any company which he controls holds any financial interest in any health care Facility in the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. DECKER: No, Mr. Speaker .

No company that I otAJn has any financial interest. in any health facility in this Province. L1090 JUilC:! 28, 1989 Vol XI..I MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the minister indicated in his reply that he owned a nursing home in Roddickton, which he soJ.d whr:~nE!VE'tn it was, a licensed boarding home to Caudelle Manor. Is it not a fact that a company owned by the hon. minister, Roddickton House Company Limited, which the minister owns 98 p1~r cent of the shares j_n, holds a mortgage with that company For $7 5 , 000?

And bE! causE! the rrd. rd. s t e 1n owns that company that holds that financial interest in the operating manor, the 1ninis LE!\n has a financial interest in the - AN HON. MEMBER :· That is sick . MR. RIDEOUT: Oh, yes! That is sick, is was not very sick when be:'ing done to Dr. Collins Few months ago . MR. SIMMS : Right on. MR . RIDEOUT : it? It i. t. IAJa S just a Does thE• m:.i ni stPr oum <~ f:inanci a] interest in a health care Facility in this Province? Yes or no? MR. SPEAKER : Order, please!

I havP asked that rrwrnbe1ns rE!flnc:'l:i.n From making comments that cause any kind of reaction on eit her side of l:he House, and l haVE! just heard comments corning ftnorn my left. I ask that it stop, pl~~ase. ·rhe Minister of Health . No. 21 R1.090

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, after I was in vi tE!d into the Cabinet, I explained to the hon. the Premier that I did indeed at one time own a health facility, which I sold. The company that bought it from me did not have sufficient money to buy it, so my company loaned, Caudelle Manor a sum of money. I do not know if it was $70,000, but a certain amount of money . I am not even certain if we took back a second mortgage, Mr. Speaker. I believe I did tell the Premier that I did take back a second mortgage, but I am not even certain that that is the case, because I think it was one of the other lending institutions.

I am not definite on that , that could be checked with my legal advisors. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, the minister says that he told l:he Prernir:?.r. Let me ask this question fi1~s t:: Was thE:~ Premier awa1ne, before the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle was appointr:~d Minister of Health, that that particular gentleman held a significant financial interest in a licensed boarding home in this Province? MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Premier . PREMIER WELlS: Mr. Speaker, I rejecL the l..•: •adE •r of the Opposition's

interpretation of it. I wiJ.l tell. the han. House what I lAJas aware of. as a matter of fact. He told !TIE!. becauSE! I required of every minister that they tell me whatever their 1.1091 June 28, 1989 Vol XU financial interests were so that I would know, and he said, "I used to own a senior citizens facility that I operated in Roddickton.

I sold it. 11 I do not know who he sold it to, although hE! probabJ.y told me at the tirne and I do not rE!member. ''They could not ra:i .se enough money by way of a first mortgage on the property to pay the agreed purchase price." My recollection is that he toJ.d me there was a second mortgage backed to him or a company, I do not remember now if it was a company owned by hirn, it was one or' the other.

If it tJJas the company that owned the facility in the first place it was probably backed to that company to secure the balance of the purchase price, and i.t :. had bE!en paid on tilTIE! and thf"re lAJ<::ts no d iff i c u 1 t y over it . I ~"'ll !J no problem tJJit:h it. MR . RIDEOUT : It was paid off . PREMIER WELLS: That it was being paid on time. I do not knotJJ whether the full balanCE! is paid YE!t or not, buL ·that: it lAJas be"ing paid un t: .. liiW and thr:!rE! lAJdS no d"i .f"Ficu1l:.y tAJ:i l:h j J'·. But I had thE:' impression that t:ht::• full. balance was not yet paid. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker.

MR . SPEAKFR : The hon. thE:' L.r=.•ade 1~ or l.h·=· Opposibon. fi!L_RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, this part:i cular rnu I" t gagE! tiJd s 1~ e g oi s L "' I" E' cl on Aug us L 5, 1985, for $75,000, and as oF today there is still not a release, so we can only assume that there is still a balance otAJi ng and that. i.t is co nt i nut ng to be paid off. I am not a 1atAJYE'I" No. 21 R 1091

but I assume that there might be a r e 1 ease regis t ere d i F it was paid off. Is the Premier aware that directly, from the minister 1 s department, each month, for each person that is in that home, comes a subsidy of $630 for all twenty people or however many are in it? To that horne, directly ea ch month from the Governm ent of Newfoundland and Labrador, through the Department of Health, for which the mtnister is now responsible, to the operator of that particular facility goes a direct subsidy From the taxpayers of Newfoundland and Labrador .

Does the Premier con sider that that would fall inot the category of a potential conflict of interest, and that intere st should have bee n di sclosed by the minist er to the Premier and by th e minister in. hi s conflict of interest statement? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: I would have to loa k at I: he conflict of int eres t r equir ements spe cifically to se e if it was required to be di sclosed . It rn ay U.lell be, I do not know . I cannot say off the top of my head without looki ng at the spE !Cifi cs , but i. t may bE•.

If th <::' minjs i=E•r d:i d no t disclose it in his con flict of interest statement, then it rnay bE! that he should have disclosed it and he ought to dis clo se it . Fr om !:he point of vie w of 1ny knotAJlE !dg e, I did not know specifi ca11y that monies were paid by Socia1 Service s or · Hea1th, whichever d e p a r l: rn e n t p a y s i t , !: o l: h :) operator of that horn e, bu t tha t does not come as any surpri se to me.

I would expect that tha t home is not any different than any oF the other senior citizen s faciliti es in the Province, mo st L1092 June 28, 1.989 Vol XU of which have some or aJ.l of the beds that they operate supported or subsidized by the government to some degree. The simple answer is I was aware of the fact tlia ·t thE! mortgage existed because the minister told mE!. But, what is he;! to do, tear it up? It ".is a second mortgage. You canno t sell it. What can you do with it?

Now, whether he disclosed it or did not disclose it, I do not knolJJ, and if he failed to disclose it t.hE!n h<::~ has to answer for that. I will take a look at that and se E! whether he should hav e. MR . RIDEOUT : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. l:he Leadc:!ln of thE! Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker', thE! supp1ernuntary j_s to the Minister of Health. Could the minister tell the House whether or not he has approved any new additions to thE• 1icC'!ns~:!d number of people who are permitted to be cared For in that particular home? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Health . MR .

DECKER : Mr. Speaker' l:hE! OlAJJ'lE•r or thal: horn~::', a MJ". El1i.s Canning, u.1ho JAJas the campaign manager· of Lhe Toi·'y PaJ·'ty tn the l<:'t~;t r:•J.ect::i.on, phonr!cl me a Few days ago ctl: horne and l:o !d me that he wanted Lo get his licens:ing extended so l:.hat he could put an extra two people into t: h e:: h o rn c:> . I ch d n o ::. :; .:, y y : · s . I did not say no . I tell this House and the hon. Leader of Lhe Opposition I did not even speak about it. to l:he peopl.r~ ·in Jny department. I did not even consider it and under no way would No. 21. I\ 1.09 2

I consider it. The home is licensed to have twenty people and that is all the authority they have even gotten. I do know that the hon. member did in fact take an extra person in that home illegally, and my department was telling him that that pE!rson has to be rr::Hnoved because he tAJas there illegally. and that is being done. I have not touched it, I have not interferred, but I did tell people in my department to treat all homes in this Province according to the law which was formulated by the Department over the years. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the Leadetn of thE:' Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr.

Speaker, I have no idea what the politics of the hon. gentleman is, but I suppose the minister when he u.Jas a mernb,;'!r did not mind selling him the home. His money was good enough, I assume. Can the minister tell the House this: Is it not a Fact that Fotn the last sev,':!ral tAJCt?ks th,:•re had been two additional people living in that home? And is it not the job and the authority of the m·.inister 1 s department~ to ensure that thE! conditions oF the liCC:!nse are abided by?

For the last several weE!I<s there have been two additional people, over and abov•? the number it was licensed for, living in that hotne, and paying l:o live there. MR. SPEAKER: rhe ·ton. thE! Minister oF i1C:'alt·h. MR . DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I arn not aware of tlAJO additional people living there. As I said, I arn awarE! of the operator trying l~o g E• t per'tTtission Ll093 JUnE! 28, 1989 Vol XLI for the extra one which was not given. The person is there illegally. The person who phoned me said, 1 Look, it is a poli ti .cal issue. What am I goin~·ta do with this family?

You arE! going to bE! this and that, 1 that sort of thing. I do belieVE!, though, that since I gave the home up, and before I became Minister of Health - on this I can be corrected -- he has permission to take respite care in there, Mr . Speaker, bu I~ I am not sure if that is the case or not. But there has been no addition to that home in any shape or form whatsoev•:>.r' since I b10?came minister, nor will that home be treated any differently from any other. But hE! i.s paying h·.'i.s installments and I appreciate that, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAI<ER: I regretfully infot~m hon . rnernbers that Question Period has expired. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Commitees MR. SPEAKER: T h E! h 0 11 . t h E! M ·i n i s L E! In 0 r i'-ti. n e :; a i ; d Energy. DR. GIBBONS: Thank you, Min. ~'PE><5lkE•Jn . Mt". SpE•aker, The Canada Newfoundland OFFshore Petroleum Board is the government agency lnesponsible foi~ pE•tinOlOUin I~::.SOUI"CP management and for administerin g the legislation and regulabons governing exploration. and for p ~~ o duct ion :) F h y d ;n

I) c d i" bon s offshore Newfoundland and Labrador. ThE! boatnd, which has bCE!n operational For over thr'eE! yeatns. is jointly r.:'sponsible l:o the Government of Canada dlld l~he No. 21 RI093

Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, to which it annually reports through the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources federally and through me provincially. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 1988 - 1989 annual rE!port of the Canada - Newfoundland Offshore Petroleum Board as required by The Canada - Newfoundland Atlantic Accord Implementation Act. Mr. Speaker, by The Mineral Act, we are required to table an annual report on the mineral licenses issued annualJ.y.

I arn pleased to table this report for the period April 1, 1988 to March 31, 1989 showing a total of 23,553 claims registered during that period . Noticeg of Motion MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a b'ill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Municipalities Act.'' (Bill No . 12) Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. SPEAKER : The han . thr:' MinistE!r of FoinE!Stiny and Agriculture. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I have today required by the Grand Falls in a the information hon. member for question placed L1 O'J 4 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI on the Order Paper on June 1989, Question No . 27. question, Mr. Speaker: "Mr. (Grand Falls) to ask Honourable the Minister Forestry and Agriculture to upon the Table" - MR . SIMMS: Table it. MR. FLIGHT : 11 ' The Simms the of lay No, Mr. Speakein. I arn to table it, I am going it. not going to itemize "of the House information: the foll.otJJing "An itE!iTlized list oF tinavel expenditures incurr ::>d by l:h:?. Minister, hj.s Executi\H!

Assistant: or any other member of lhe Minister's personal or Depar ·tmental staFF who 111ay h<'.tve accornpanir:!d h'im sincE:' May 5, 1989." The answer, Mr. Speaker, J.s: Minister's travel: On May 9 I went to Stephenville to participate in NationaJ. Forestry Week at a cos l: of 'S473; on May 12 1 t"Jent to GandE!in, the Far·rn Wotn::•n' s 0 r g a n i z a t. i o n i n v i t ::• d 111 E! L u '.:i o l: u Gander; on May 20, St. John's to Gander; May 26, St. John's to Gander; and on JunP 7, St:. John's l:o Corner Brook to be brteF<"d on all thE! thj.ngs I nE!ed to I:H,' briefed on by rny oFficial ·in Coinner Brook.

MiA . SpE!aker·, I uJa s accornpanioc! :H 1 those tr·oips by Mr. D.l~. PEd:<:!i''S, Deputy Mini.st.er. ThE! figuines ;u·r:• h e r e . I uli. .11 l: a b 1 e t h i3. t . r tAkl. s accornpanj.E•cl b~! Min. D.P. Pel :J!I''~; en a second trip, by Dr. Nazir, Assistant Deputy Mini.ster of Forestry on the third trip, and Min. Ken BE!an1ands, Assistant Deputy Minister on one of the trips. No. 21 R 1094

So is that answer to his satisfaction? MR. SIMMS: Wait until I see it. MR. FLIGHT: On the Order Paper, June 11, 1989, QUE!Stion No. 12, sc•YS: "Mr. Simms (Grand Falls) to ask the Honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture to place on the Table of the HousE~ the following information: "An iterntz•:=!d list of expenditures for any office equipment, personal equipment, furnishings and photographs purchased for the Minister's Offtce since May 5." I would tell the han. minis tE!ln we arE! the e:~xact oppositE! of the Premier where there were demands from all. ove1~ the country for his picture.

Nobody in Newfoundland seems to rE!quire one of minE!. I have not had a request For a picture since I have been elected. He wants an itemized list of c?.xpendituJnes, and l.:he ansWE!r, Mr. Speake in, is this: Theine have bE!en no expenditures for any office equipment, personal equipment, furniture or photographs purchased for the Minj_stE!r' s OfFice sinCE! 5 fV1ay 1989. Mr. Speaker, I ask l:he han. the member for Grand FaLls arE! these answers satisfactory?

I would, with you1n permission, say to hirn, and I am not sure this tJ.Jill b(:' a fact, but that period covers flnom 5 May to 29 June, almost: l:.Luo months, Ml~. Sp.::>akeln, and I just want to inform the han. the rnernber for Grand Falls that if one extrapolates the expenses in those two months a eros s the year - I am not saying it IAlill be, tt may not be -but if there is any 1_1 ()') 5 June 28, 1989 \Jo1 XLI relationship to the amount of money I spent, I tell the member for Grand Falls there will be onE! awful difference in the expenses of my office from all the previous ministers, including him.

There are expensE!S for two days in excess of that when he was m:i.rdster. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hea1n! MR. SPEAKER: -··----··-·----Order! I tJ.Jould just again J.ti<E:! to rern:i.nd han. rninistcO!rs that l:hE! sa1ne ruJ.,?s apply to w1nitten quest:i.ons on LhE! Order Paper, as to oJnaJ. questions, and we should nol:. get :int·o a n y t h :L n g l: h a t ·i s a r (3 u ITH:• n l:

c) l:. i. 'J ~~ , any th:i.ng of opinion. Thc:' s<:ctllll::! rules apply. This not bc:!ing lrJE•dnesday, :in thE! parliamentary sense, we have to call the regular Orders oF the Day. Motion, Justice entitled, AnornaJ.·ic::!S Stat-:.ute 11) Orders of the Day t h e h o n . L h ~::• 1'-'li n .i s l: 1:! ,~ o ,- to introduce a biJ.l "An Acl: To Remove And f~lnlnolns Il'l l·hr:• I II . J __ aw J carrlet1. (13111 ~Jo On motion, Bi.11 No. ll, lnHacl i:l F i 1n s t t i rn <"! , or dE! I" ::• d r e <:'t d d ~:; :,, con d t:i.rne on tomorrow. MR. BAKER: Onler 3. MR. SPEAKER: Concurrence Motion (Soc:ia1 Services Committee). The hon. the rne1r1ber for LaPoile. No. 21 R 1.09 ~:,

MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to stand here toda)l · and address the House on the concurrence motion for the Social Services Committee. The meetings, over the J.ast two weeks, were all held here in the House. Just to give the House an overview of what was accomplished within the Estimates Committee in examining the various departments, a lot of differ ent things cam e up. Of course, there were some contentious issue s with members of the Opposition as to certain ar~a s of the budget and funds that had beE!n allocated.

There wa s al so a lot of praise For the initiativc ::-s taken by the Minister s of th e Crown in l:he handling of the budget over such a short period of time, and how they managE!d to put this togeth er and get the wheels of government turning again after it had sat quiet and in Limbo for such a long period of time. Th ere wer e some difficulties in the proC E!dures we followed within the cornrnit:tce process and, as I understand, past history will show that the committee process is often a very political forum .

Thi.s being l:he casP , of course, there were a lot of political points raised, mainly by members of the Opposition. At times it IAJas much l:o l:h C'! chagr·in of evt'n the Opposition membE!Ins of the Commitl:ee l:hat the process took such a long and unnE!Cessary t:i.ITH:1 period to delve into area s in such detai1 that LuE•n :! of no neCE!SS: i.l:y other than questions being ask ed possibly for the sake of asking questions. The purpose of asking qUE!S b.ons for the sakE! of as king questions.

Your Honour. is quite - I should not say trivial, but it L1096 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI would give one the impression that the time being consummed was being consummed just for that, for its own sake.

I am hopeful changes will be made and that the han. ministers of the Crown will see to it that in future the Committee can fun cLion in a much more dilig ent mann er in getting down to the business of allowing new members to understand exactly what purpose is in examining the budget Estimates. criticism where criticism is due. and good, effective debat e, not just diligent, ince ssant questioning For the purpo se of asking questions and taking up time .

I do not say this entirely to be Cln:itical of the peop1E• of Lho other political stripe, thr::'y he.d a lot of good input inLo Lhe process, as did rne1nbE !1n s fr'u m l:h1?. government side, but there were problems with the concentrat ion on problems as opposed to concentrating on the objective, which was to stimulate good quality debate For all so Lh<"'l t L•.JC?. could better learn th e pr oce ss an d also l:o I?.Xatninc:!, prJss ibly in su 1n1:! detail. with the m:inistE!r and his staff present, just exactly what it was and what b1nought l..hr:• officials of the various departments to come up with the programs that they had and the reasons br::~hind U11:d.1n choiu ;! of spE!Cific programs ou~; ;,J~ ol:h !C"ins .

And at . tirne s when IJJ e ar r:• in t:·igh t bud g '" t s i l: u at ions tAW h <.·w E~ 1: n ass u rnc:~ that theInE:' <H ' E! I"~ ! as on s behind a choice being mad~:: ', a C h 0 i C Cc~ 0 f 0 n c:;• p a r' t. i C U ] cl In p I" 0 CJ i" i;liTJ receiving more Funding tha n another. the priority systE!m being levied by this gouernment on specific areas of deve1opment within !:he different government depal"tmPnts. No. 21 Rl096

Another thing, Mr. Speaker, the Social Services Committee had to examine, of course, our objective. We flew by the seat of our pants, so to say; we had the helpful guidance of the Clerk of the House and the Clerk of Committees duroing ou1n debates through this budget process, without which we possibly would have been quite naked in our approach to this matter. With the guidance we were able to follow as tradition dictated the procedures necessary to complete our task.

But I feel that some thing on the order oF a more solid, a more legtslatiVE! process maybe 'legislative' is the incorrect wotnd - but a more regimented proc ess to the Commi tt ee sy ste m i s need ed so tha t things can be dealt with in a much more concise and diligent mann er woul d be very eff ective for all parliamentarians . As I m~ntioned earlier, politics of the budget versus the parliamentary aspects of it, sometimes members opposite choose to criticize members over here and some rninistE!rS For being motnc• politicians than being parliamentarians.

While each part of our makeup, bE!ing parliamc::~ntarians dnd poli t.icians. I think having an E!qual 1nole to play hE!re in this hon. House. we were elected as politicians of our specific parties, i'lnd also as parliamenta1nians IAJe atnE> then instructed to d::!bate the various issues which are brought before us, either in committee or here in the House, and to do this effectively politics does have a role to play, but it s houJ.d be a role of our own philosophy, I think, and not neCC:!SSalniliy onE! of browbeating ovE•r what side we are on, what tAJe think shouJ.d be donE!.

L10 97 June 28 , 1989 Vol XLI Often times there was little offer of an affective alternative by the opposition to the budget estimat es as presented. and in all but one specific case, a noted ex ception by the hon. member of St. John's East (Ms Duff). thE!re wa s concuJ~rence by all members of the committee on passing the budget estimates as presentc!d to th: :! committee. The way that I read that would bE! to see that we are in agreement with respect to the budget estimates as presented, with the one exception, although the majority carried, oF the DepartrnE!nt of HE!alth, I th'i.nk. The hon. member from St.

John's East did object to cornpJ.ying w:ith UH:! cornrnittee at l:hat time. rht::! Opposition, in colnJrr:it.tec;• and a- l3 o here in the House, tAJhat role do they take? As has b(:•en said in the past by the han. l:he Lel'ldC!r of­ the Opposition, their Jnole is to offer an alternative to government.

In that respect I would consider the offerings of such aJ.ternatives du1ning cot TIInit.t...;:!r:' debate to also be an afFective method of offering this a 1 l: e In n a t i u e 1: o l: h e H o u ::; ~~ .'! n d !-_ ) the people of the Province, the committe process being one of a public forum which Uw publ.i.c can easily at l: c:• n d d 11 d L'l s k q u c s l:. :ion ·.; , il-'" dE!Sired.

The quality of debate overall. that I have heard here, when I first gave my maiden speech I wanted tn, ft"om that poi n l:, :Lrnprov t:! l":!ll! abiJ.ity with which I debaLe a specific top:ic, b1:•cause U1:c· t r ad i t i o n o f d E· b a t io! :i. r. s <::• 1 f d o r::· ::. have a p 1 ace l.: o play hE! r· e , doC! s have a definite l~eason through Lhr:! history of clebal:e, the hisl:ory oF houses of assembly throughout:: l:hr:! world, the history of legj.sJ.atures, thE! qua1il:.y of No . 21 R1097

debate is how we would be judged as parliamentarians, and the political aspects of this same issue of debate will appoint us to our resp ective parties where we are coming from in debate.

Without that quality I fe el we bow down to creati on of a plethora of information, an amount of questions and answers to which no one could addr ess any particular idea or ideal of reason, where we plan to go from here, because if we just ask questions to get answers, and ask other questions to get more answers, and the question period here in the Hou se is a good ·forum to kee p gov ernment on its to es, it is a good forum to keep everyone looking at exactly what : it is we are here for, l:o provide bett er goVE!Innrnen 't·. for th e peoph~ of the Province regardless of our constituency nE!eds, ou1n own personal need s as members, with regards to how we ar e compensated or tJJhatever, because .our sole purpose when we get involved in public life is to serve the people better.

And I feel that if we off er good quality debate during Cornmi t te E! an d hE!re in th E! Hou se , wil :h some prepar ati on, LL.Jhi ch oF t:: •n is not the case, and I arn possibly a bit guilty of this today because I did not spend the usual amount of time in preparing for wha 1:. I had to say hE!Ine today, but, then, again what are we to do? We are limited as to time with the House's constraints on whE!n we ca n get prepared ·fo 1n th e is sue s whi ch are coming ah ea d .

I had a few thing s whi ch I ran acro ss in a book, and it 'is not a quote book as one of th e hon. mini ster's tends to use, but it had some VE!ry poignant quo ·tes which I think may as sist us all in offering a be tter quality of representation through our Ll0 98 June 28, 19 89 Vol XLI effectiveness here in Parliament to the people of the Province. this one particular quote by Mark Twain says 'A person with a n ew idea is a crank until the idea succeeds.' And, Mr. Speaker, I submit that is certainly the case.

Having bEdng bE!rated by thE ! han. the member Fo1n Humber Va11ey over constantly bringing up th e issue of the greenhouse and wha t have you, I will not take that any further. Another one quo tE!d was by T. S. EJ.iot, and it says, 'When! is the:! tJJisdom we have lost in knot;..Jledqe? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?' Mr. Speake!~, I fE!Ed t:hat t:hat particular quote should be taken very SE!rious1y by c<: !rtai.n rnun: brc•1 "S opposite who participated in the Committee because we can drown ourselves in informati on through asking questions w:ith no s€:!nSE! of a good alternative ·to offer.

That is also the case. As is often said by l.hE! hon. th e Leader of the Opposition, 'in uiow of the fact .' I notiC C::! he U S E!~; j l: q u :i. t e (-' r e que n t 1 y . I j ll s l: p o in l: , .. d it out to a couple of othe1n members as he was sp,~aking in Question Period .

In vieiAJ of UH :! fa c t that our co tnrn:il~ L (! e t;..Ja s a 1: times difficult to opE!rate ancl I at one time did gel : a liU:1e bit upset bE!Cause of the inherent informaJ·.it:y in which a COII1Initl:.l?o operates, oftentimes the Chair, and I was very honour ed to have been asked to chai.r Lhis pa1nticular Comtniltee, d010s not retain the respec t that j~ au·orded to the Chai1n hE!r l':' i.n l:h.is House. And granted this is possibly a nE!Cessity LL.Jil:h l:h1~ method or thE! pr·ocedures that th e Committee Follows . No. 21 R1098

Now I fE!el that the way in which we reform the Committee system, which is planned for the near future, the possibility that questions asked will be put on an agenda, I think that would alleviate difficulties with these particular questions, and then a further point on the agenda set for other questions. with a strict limit of time. I know other members of Committees with their Chairmen did limit the time very strictly and this worked quite well. I tended to be very lenient in that respect, but often this leniency was abused. MR. SPEAKER: Order. please! The hon. mernber 1 s time is up . MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hc:-ar! MR. SPEAKER: The han . the member For Humber East. i"'S VERGE: Mr. Speaker, as Vice-Chairman of the Social Services Estimates Committee, I found that the C::ornrnittee 1 s del ·ibcc~ral:.ions WE!rc? very, VE!I~y USE!fUJ.. I arn shockE!d, actually. l~o hE!ar the Chairperson complain about too much inFor'mation buing c?licitud Fr'OIIl ministers. Our job was to scrutinize the budget estimal~es for four critical social departments of this government, E d u c a t i o n , H e a 1 t h • S o c i a 1 S P. 1~ v i c E! s and Justice.

In all, we spent about fourteen hours going thl~ough the estimates of the Four departments. We d:Ld not actuaJ.ly use even all oF ou1~ allotted fifteen hours, we made efficient Ll099 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI use of the time available, and that was particularly so in the case of our consideration of the Education estimates. Looking at the Minister of EducaU.on, as I am speaking about that, it lJ..Jas really because of the minister 1 s co-operation in responding to questions that we used our time so well when we were deliberating the Education estimates. I can say the same thing about the Department of Justice.

The Justice Minister was co- ·opE!ratiUE!, responsible and polite. In each case, the ministers SE!t the torH:! for the deliberations. I am sor'l~y to say I cannot say the same thing about either the Minister of Health 01~ the Minister oF Soc:i.cd Services. Those l:.wo 1ninis tE!I"S doid their best to protract the proceedings oF the Committee . They talked at length about previous governments. They tried to distract the commitlee 1 s attention From the real problems of the day and an exploraU.on of answers for the future, by repeatedly dredging up instances fl~om the past. Thl'!

Minisl~ur oF Social SE!rv:ices extensively in a Pl"("dChC::!cl r'a l:.h::·r' in thE! Evangelical style and we, Opposition, will be very, interested in measuring his VE!ry FutlH'C:! performance against his sermonizing during our Committee meetings this will see what happens and the year after, Mr. Es t.imat.os YE!dl~. WI:' next yr::!al~ ~3peakel~.

Now, the Four social dE!parl~IIIE!Ill~~ ; we were dealing with have overlapping responsibilities and, t h C:' r E' forE! , it:. wa !' in t e 1~ r:• !; t. oi. n ~J f •) I" us in the Opposition Lo be ablu l~o take a considE!rable period of time, concentrated to deal with the foul~ dE!partments. We questioned the ministers on details of thr:~il~ budget E•st:i.rnatE!S , No. 21 Rl099

but we tried to focus as much as we could on the broad policy that underlies the numbers. Mr.

Speaker, for the benefit of members who were not present at our Estimates Committee meetings and for visitors, I will list quickly some of the issues that we dealt with and then I will conclude by illustrating how Opposition members' questioning and commenting on the pressing problems of child abuse and wife battering to all four ministers was constructive, yet how their responses and the numbers set out in their department's estimates represented, in our eyes, a very disappointing and inadequate response on th e part of this new government. Mr. Speaker, the first department we considered was Education.

We talked about the firing of the former deputy minister and assistant deputy minister For administration and how that has contributed to a morale problem in the department and the wider education community within the Province. We talked about the importance oF r:~ducation at ecich stage of human development, pausing to reflect on the critical importance of education and developm ent of young children, children bE•fore they entE!r school at age five.

We were pleaSE!d to hear the minister say that he recognizes the irnportancr?. of early childhood E!ducation and how he will be exploring co-operative projects in commun-.ities around the Province to provide better pre-school experiences for children, co-operative in the sense of having schools with parents and Families in caring for young childtnen. We talked about planning and LllOO June 28, 1989 Vol XLI preparation for the upcoming school board elections. This November, for the first time in four years, there will be school board elections throughout the Province.

We asked about provisions to include aJ.J. the citizens of the Province tn this round of elections, particularly those who were excluded l:he last ti.me, those who do not subscribe to any of the eight Christian denominations wi.th constitutional powers in education. We discussed extensively the possibiJ.ities for greater sharing of school facilities among denominations in the Province and talkc?.d about spE!Cific examplE!S. We dE!aJ.t wi .th pending consolidal:i.on or= school boards, and we i.n the OpposH .:i.on asked about provision For extra funding for boards being merged.

L'lle were di.sappointcO!d to hc~ar t:he minister· say that this budget contains no speci.al pr·ovision For the DeE•r Lake and St . RarbE• Integrated Boards, which are slated to merge this summer. However, he indicated some reLi.eF through the reguJ.ar operating grants. ~"J e t. a l k ::• d c"l. b 0 u t l:. h :0! : n :'! q u it. :i !? ~~ experienced by girls and boys, and wornen and men in our society, and I.AJe t;.Jere pleased tn hE!C\r that ·i··.hE• minister ·is keen to :irnph•rncc•nl: i'Li.s phiJ.osophy that spending unequa11y is needed to ptnovide r:-qualil-:y.

I was personaJ.ly gratified to see l:hr'" tn:inisLer rc':'F I.':!i~ to l:hE! department's policy statement on equality of opportunity for fernaJ.es and mciles in education. !hat tAJc"lS acl:ually one of l:hE! 1nort:• pJ.r:!i'lSi.ng lnOITJI':!I1t 3 in OUI" deliberations, in rny eyes. We also talked quite a bit about post-secondary education in the Province and got SOITll'~ inforrn<:1ti .on about pJ.ans of thl::> nPIA I govE•i"l'liTIE!nt No. 21 Rl.lOO

for expanding post-secondary education institutions. That is just a very gener al

summary of a range of subjects we addressed in education. In health we dealt with a very long list, Mr. Speaker. We began talking about mental health services for children and adolescents. We in the Opposition got information from the Minister of Health and his officials about the growing demand for these services, given th e sharp rise in disclosures of abuse of children, especially sexual assault of children. We also got information about the tE!enage suicide problem in our Province.

We discussed AIDS and got from the minister statistics about the incidents of HIV carriers and deaths related to AIDS so far in our Province. We talked about the neE!d for more pointed and focused education efforts on the part of the Department of Health to educate our people about the danger posed by AIDS and about the need for people to practice saf(" sex. We askE!d the m:i.nister about his intention to improve the department's overall sexuality education efforts.

He told us that the department is intending to h·irt::! addition<'ll reproduct:iun nurses, planning to use them in a way the department earlier us1:!d a Public Health Nurse on the West Coast. In the Opposition, I.>Je said that that modE!l was not entil~eJy satisFactory, it t;.Jas not well known, and there is a neE!d Fo1~ the Department of Heall:h to conduct a rnuch morE· aqgressive sex education program throughout the Province.

We got statistics about the of dE!liveries in the Province, the age of mother s delivering. rate and LllOl June 28, 1989 Vol XLI We talked quite a bit about plans of the department and health care institutions in the Province to close beds this year. Mr. Speaker, the government, wh en th ey were in Opposition, when they were campaigning for election, made much ado about th~:! probl E:~ ms resulting from bE!d closurE:~ s . The Minister of Health told us in our committee that there w:i.ll be 400 beds closed this summ er in the Province - 400 bed in th e hospitals and institution s of our Province.

He indicated that about 200 additional nurses ar'E! r1:!qui1~E!d in these institutions, and that a nursing shortage is one of the main contributors to the bed closuJ~es, YE! t he adrnittc:!d l~ha l:. l·.·.h::• budgr::•t pn-Jvidr:!S Fo1~ the hi.l"ing of Forty . .:..five additional hospital and health caJ~E! E!lnployees in all, of which thirty-three will be nurses. Mr. Speai<E!r, we found out from the Minister of Health the distribution of the 400 bed closures and heard him say that the greatest closures will occur at the large hospitals in the Tnf.J.jor centrr:•s. Mr.

Speaker, at our first Hlt!l:!ting on health, we were shockE!d to hE!ar the minister say that there is a. b sol u i~ e 1 y no p 1~ o vis :i

l) n i. n his estimates for this year For a screening mammography pro<F'dJTl For the women of the Province. We have discussc!d l:.hat l'llc'tny times sjncE• j.n the Full Hou~;u. WI':! talked about the need for expanding CT scanning services in l~he Province, ·and did not <Jet iHly dE·finiU• indiccd::i.on of tl1:::• 1 n i n i s t ~· r· ' s p 1 a n s . 'rJ E' a s k ,,, d a b o u l: the Department of Health's position on fluoridation oF municipal water supplies, and we were told that is something the nE!W rn.iniste1~ is just No . 21 RllOl

investigating. We discussed extensively the minister 1s plans to discriminate against employees of health care institutions by denying them th e ben efit of the early retirement program. MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! I have to advise the han . m.:~mber that her time has elapsed. MS VERGE: By leave. AN HON. MEMBER: By leave, yes. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS VERGE: At any rate, Mr. Speaker, I lAJi.11 have another crack at this.

I have two more departm ents to summarize, then I was going to tie it all together by illustrating thE! benefit of our discussion about th e need to improve servic es responding to child abusE:' and wife battering. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Minister of Social Services . MR. EFFORD: I can undE!rstand why my hon. colleagues are relaxed. After that speech by l:he Former Minis ler of Justice, tJ..Je had to be n!laXE!d and a little drowsy in our chairs. I had the opportunity of appear ing beforE! the Estimates CornrrdttE•e on two occasions.

The first evening we start ed at 7:00 o1clock and WE!nt through until 10:30. rhe next day we were supposed to be Ll1.02 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI there for one hour, but I think it actually lasted less than an hour. The Vice-Chairman of the Committee, after just coming from the Cabinet of the former administration after ten years, asked some very pecuLiar qtH~stions at th e Estimate s Cornrni t.t eE•. Fir st of all, I gave some br' ·.i~:d=- opening remarks on behalf of the Department of Social Services .

The member, in her opening statement, asked no less than thirty-one questions, I believe, before she dr ew a br1 ~ath, and I did not get an opportunity to answer one question. In fac t, sh1~ was asking me question s so fa st it was only becau se I had such competen t PE!Ople uli.th rne. and I a111 such a g oo d li st:en 1?1", l:.l1at tAJ:) manag ed takE! clown mus t of th•;· thir ty-one questions. When the For'lllE!r Minis l:E!r of Justice stood she did not give nH :! a good recommendation, she cli.d not say very kind words about rrtl'!.

At. least she could have said that out of the thirty-one questions she asked l:he MinisLer oF Social SeruiCE!S had anstAJei"S lOI" rnosL or thc!:n. Gut tJJht~n :;he ' ~::t-.:;!~ i:1 d ::~:;! h 1·:,AJ many cases of child abuse were reported in the Province For 1988-89, I very quickly told I'H"r 791 cases, of which 356 of the cases repoJ"ted last YE!al" lAlr>i"E! sexual abuse, and she ca1ne back wi. th the ques lion I s ti.11 hcWE! not closed 111y rnoul:.h s:i.l·l, ;e ~;hE! askr:'cl :i.l-·. -- hOlAl iTii'Ll'IV of ' l~h<l~;r: :• victims weJ"e female and how llhHlY WE'I"E' mal.e?

HotJJ ffldny or · Lh<'! abus<:~rs Wt:'l"e Felllale and hotAJ 1nany o f t h e i'l b u s r:• r s lJ..J r:o l" e lfkt l r'• ? N

I) tAl , l ad1ni t that I did no l: know U11~ answeJ" to that qUC::!Stion. I actua1ly did not know the anstAJer to that question. But I would haue thought, bein•J a former rnEnnber of Cabinet. thc1t she tJ..JouJ.d No. 21 Rll02

have been more concerned about what the government of which she was a part, did not do for the number of victims of child abuse in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. But in the few short weeks we have been here, at least, number one. we have recognized the problem of child abuse in this Province and we have recognized the effect it is having on not only the victims but other family members, and we are already, Mr. Speaker, putting mea sures in place to work with the families of victims of abuse, and we are also putting preventive mea sures in plac e to prevent child abuse from actually happening.

But the former government did not even have the ability to rE•cogniZE! those problems and to put measures in place. I do not know why the former Minister of Justice would sit in her placE:1 and ask me questions as Minister of Social Services about abuses, about the people tiJho have been convicted or about the people who have been charged, when that information should have been in the department she came from ju st a Few short weeks ago.

It is not the Minister of Social Services 1 responsibility t.o know t;Jhr:'theln the abuser is a male or a female, or how many people were charged in 1988-89, our concern is to tJJork to support and counsel the families and the v:icl:ims oF chi.ld abuse. fhE· forme1n M:inister of Justice should have known the answers to those questions. In fact, she should not have put herself in the position of asking the qUE!SUons . because she knew very well what this mE•mber of thE· government would come back and say to her.

But, Mr . at the Lll0 3 Sp1;!aker, we havP fact that we, June 28, 1989 to look as an Vol XLI administration, have only been here for a few short weeks. They had seventeen years to put together effective measures to work and support those who are victims of abuse. But thGre wa s absolutely nothing put in place by the former administration in seventeen yea1ns, and in less than seven weeks, the not;J administration has these mea sur es already in place. Mr. Speaker. I can assure you that not only ar e they in place, but they are going to get better as t he we eks and th e months go by.

The MHA for Humber East cannot stand up in this House of AsSE!InbJ.y and attack this administration, or the Minister of Social Services, or the MinistE!r oF Hoalth Fur not answering questions the way she would have them answered. LE! t me tE!ll all rnornbE!Ins of the Opposition, you have tllE! pr•iv:ilUtJ(! of asking questions, lAJE! have the pri vi lege of an swer:i ng H1 lc'm. \:J(! do not say what you want: us to say, lAJe say what we wanl:. to say.

A n d w h r:• n q u e s t :i o n s a s k E! d a I" 1:! pertinent l:o things cauS1:'d by this governrflf:'nt, 01~ c<:-wsed by ti·Lis admin:isl:r·at.ion, l:h•:• n 1\Jfc' ~~ri i l i-.dk::! full responsibiJ.i ty. But we tAli 11 not I say, and I tAJill say it very c 1 ear 1 y , lAJe w:i ll not. take responsibi1il:y l:or l:.h e Fai.ltH'CS of the Former administration. And those were l:.he types of qu.:•s t.ions that were coming From the Oppos ·ition durinq Lhe Es l:.i 111atcs Co rnrrri t. l.: r:• E• s , que s l: ions on l.IJ h d l:. L hey failed to do, Mr.

Speaker. fhe MHA For Hurnb t.~ r East ju~ .L said that she will bo bclCk next. yc•a1n Lo ask questions. [cUrl not: ~;o SUI''!:! she wi 11 be back next: y E! <H' , but I am sure we lAJi11 be back next Y':>ar, Mr. Speake!~. And whE!n shl:! asks questions we will have answers, Min. Speaker, about accornpl"ishlrll':!l'll":s No. 21 tn 103

we can boast about which we will do over the next several months. And at that time we will be able to point out the downfalls of the last seventeen years. And the hard work and the long hours we have had to put in so far we will continue to put in over the next several months to bring up to standard our society and the Department of Social Services.

We will deal with child abuse , the needs centered around preventive measures, the needs to follow up support programs we can put in place to help those people who ar e victims, and families who are victims, either the father or l:he mother, who have to suffer th e consequences of having their ch ild or children in that particular circumstance. Becau se it is not alt.uay s two fam ily memb ers who cau se child abuse. Sometimes it is both pa1nents, but in a lot of cas es it is ei th er one par ent or the other . But we are, Mr. Speaker, working on that problem.

Our time here has been very, very short, but we have recognized the problem and we are going to do something about i.t. 13ut mostly, Mr. Spt~akt:•r, 1 want the Opposition to understand that there is a long, long time between seventeen weeks and seventeen years, and they failed but we are sucCE!E!ding. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hea1n, hear! MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the rrlC:!ITlber 'foln Sl: . John's East. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS DUFF : I would like to be recognized Ll l04 JunE· 28, 1989 Vol XLI first . AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) today. Sit down.

MS DUFF: No, this is getting to be fun . Mr. Speaker, as a membe r Social Services Commi ttee, say I found the interesting if not of th E! I rnu s t proces s entirely enlightening, except in SOrrlE ! instances. I wanted to speak a few moments at the initial instance about the process. I tAJas going to do that anyway, even if thE' hon. th E! member for LaPoile had not qol:l:l:'n on his soapbox this morning, aristng out o-F cornrnents l:l1al: WE!I"t~ made by the hon. the murnb::: 'l" for' St.. John 1 s South. It appears to me that hon.

ITlE!rnbE!I''S oppositr:=· suffer from a great degree of defensiveness, thE!Y do not SE!ern Lo understand what the whole pr'OCE!SS of the Estimates Comrnit.ee is. I wanted to learn in th'is exercise. I was really looking forward to Lh'is part oF rny role ,::1~; d member or= the Opposition, becausE• Ui!'-! debate in 'l:h!?. HOIIS(' LS SUIII('L'Jhi:;. t st1nuctured and sorneU.ITlE!S it is a little difficult to get direct answers; I get a feE!ling sornE!tirness i:.hal:. IAJe di'0! pldy 'i.1: q a. little gamE! of hide Rnd sE:'(''I<, tAll:! are SE:~eking and everybody on the opposite side is hiding. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MS DUFF: [ am sure rnl':'rnbers oppos "i l:.t~ :JJould havE• bE!en rnuch happiol" if 1.ue had tak(:'n a line of qtHO!stioning that went something like this: How can t:he han. member work as hard dS h!?. does, thosE• seVE!ntE!en hours a day? Or, How could this No. 21. 1~1104

administration generous, so people of Newfoundland? have been kind-hearted to the Province SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! .SOM__s __ lj_Q_N.~ MEM_B E R_§ : Oh, oh! MS DUFF: so the of Oh fantastic! And I am very, very sorry if we disappointed you, because we had an idea that our role, at least, as members of the Opposition was to provide constructive criticism, was to probe, and was, occasionally, to criticize in order to ensure accountabili.ty.

We look at the E!lection promises, we looked at the Throne Speech, we looked at copies of the estimates in previous years and Found, in fact, that is l1.1hat the hon. members were doing over here, probing and criticizing. Oh did they ever criticize! Far worse than we have criticized so far. But our genuine interest was to get answers. And I would say that iF we had gotten answers, if you had not been as good as you are at the game of hide, the Social Services Estimates Committee probably would not have taken half as long.

Now, I have noted with amusement, in fact, the comments From the hon. l:.h1~ rne1nber For l_aPoile. Because it was immediately obvious, the minute the Commil:tee sat, that he had one deep regret, tha t l:he EstirnalJ!S Co1nrnittees were in fact were informal, and that the hon. member lAJas not seated in thE! Chair thE!re clothed in black robes. Because that is what he t.uanted. He t,uants parliarnent.ary procedure, he wants to be able to Ll105 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI limit: 1 It is your Five minutes now.

Next speaker, pleaSE!. 1 And we made him very impatient. fhe informality of the Estimates Committee I thought - I may be wrong- is there for the purposE! of being able, in an inFormal manner, to seek answers, to ask questions and if you do not g1':!t answers to your questions, to as I< them again, and again, and again . MR. SIMMS : (Inaudible) over there the next time. MS DUFF: No, he was a little bit aggressive .

The officials were also the'lne, I thought, for the purpose oF answering questions oF Fi'l.ct, bul: the hon. ministers. two in particular - I cannot say I want to blanket them all wit h this criticism ·- have learned Fr·om their leader; every time an official wanted to spr::~ak, he~ got the hand signal, you knotJ..J, and hE! had to whisper in the m-.inisl:i:H' 1 S ear. So that took tirne, bt=:•cause the sa:ne answer· hi'\d to bo !JilJOn tw ice and then filtered through l:he 1ninis'l:::>r. MR. EFFORD: Be nice now . Be nice . MS DUFF: I have learned a Jot from you, Sir, in my Few days in the 11ouse .

MR. ~"3IMMS: 8 u t y o u c a n n o L r E· p e a t i ·t· i n l. h r"· 1-touse. MS DUFF : I c a n n o t r E' p E! a t a ] J. o r i l. , n o . Now the han. Minister of Social Setnvices is a funny guy. I must say I found it quite E•nl~ertaining to be in the SociaJ. Setnvicr::!S debate. It is a pity in a tAJay, No. 21 R llOS

because the issues we were dealing with were very, very serious issues, and they have already been listed by my colleague, the member for Humber East. MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) . MS DUFF: We wondered, rightly, why? Having heard the statements from this side of the House when you were in Opposition we wondered, having read your program, why in fact you did not, even in the short seventeen weeks that you had available to you, reallocate some more funding to some areas, particularly in the area of ch'.ild welfare .

Why, when we asked you about the case loads of welfare officE!rS in thE! child welfare:' department, which are 95 clients per welfare officer when the national average is about 22, had you not allocated more funding for more child welfare officers? We know the needs are growin: We know there are more mother-led families, we know there is increa se d evidence of sexual abuse, we know there is mor e ado11:>SCE!nt suicides. But., I rnus t. say, the minister did answer the questions.

He had one answer, 'Yes, thE:1 all.ocations are inadE!quate .' lhat with passion, absolute passion! 'Yes, but we have not done anything about it because we do not have the resouru>.s, <:::tnd l·:he real problem is t h a t y o u g u y s rna d e s u c h a rrli:! s s o f it for the last seve nteen years.' SOME HON. MEMBERS : Heal~, hE!ar! MS DUFF : That was the standard answer to every question. So we have written down all of the L1106 June 28, 1989 Vol XI.I questions.

We did not get answers this time, so we will ask them again next year, and l:he YE!ar after, and the year after, then we will be back in government and h1?. can come over on this side and ask us some questions. Now, there are CE!I~tain good things in the est.irnates of the DE•pal~tlriE!nt of Social Services, and we did tell the minister that we were quite happy with his decisions with regard to the deinsti tutionalization program and the fact that Exon HousE! had closed out . We asked, bE!Cause it is not evident. If you are reading this budget, you cannot always see.

Figures do not lE!ap out at you and tE•11 you what ·.is being put into a given program. So WE! as ked, in fac-t, if thr:!I~E! IAJdS additional Funding to provide suppol~t SE!I~vices in U1C'! communities for thos1::. childr'en 1"1ho have been taken out of i n s t i t u ti o n s . I am happy l: o s a y that Hw minister sa:ld yes, there was, and that he wou1d monitor this situation carefully, and so 1-'1ill we. [f we Find l:here arE! any dE!ficienciE !S, tJJE'~ will be th e first ones to lel: you knotAJ.

We also asked a questton, wh .ich I thought lJ..Jas a very legit:LITJCltE! quc:!s tion, about Lh:~ nc •1:'d f• ll~ greater' liaisor1 i:JI: !Ll!..it::!en ;_:--,,, !- Departments of Health, Social SE!I~vices and Education, becau sE:! L<Jr:• are dealing with a whole person and rnany til'lles thE•I"E! cll"e rn u] L"i pJ,e pro b 1 ern s .

T h ~'' 111 i n i s t: t! r a s ~~ u ,... ::! d u s t h a t h E• , i n f a c t , t<J o u 1 d b e p j c lcl n ~J up on l:h1:'! inil~.iat. ·i ve of l:.h1:- previous liaison liaison meeting. you for I think government to create a Cl )lllln:il:l:c'::! ;::11H :I l:hai: Ulat committee would be Mr . MinistE!r, I corn1nE•nd that .. It ts not a11 bad. the whole process could have been more educationaJ., more No. 21 I< ll 06

constructive, and more if, in fact, we encountered such a defensiveness and such aggression on behalf the ministers. productive had not degree of a degree of of some of Now, I did not find this at all with the Minister of Education. We gave him a har·der time, Sir, than we gave you, and a longer time, and the minister simply sat there and answered the questions. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS DUFF: In the one a1nea where we did not feel we were getting correct answers, possibly because we were not phrasing them correctly, we kept at it and he kept answering.

I do not think he ever once said that all the probl ems in education are due to the fact that 'you peoplE! had beE!n in there for seventeen yea1ns.' The appealing thing about the Minister of Social SeJnvices is that he always does it with a smile on his face. There is a differenc10! betWE!en the MinistE!ln oF Social Services and the Minister of Health. The Minister of Health is equally agressiue, equally inclined to be poli.-1-:ical, but he does not even have the grace to smile. The Minister oF Health is an unhappy puppy. MR. SIMMS : More unhappy after today.

MS DUFF: IF it is not our role to quc::ostion and to try to get behind these rather sterile figures in the budget and to identify program areas which the people in the communities haue told us are important and to make sure that Ll107 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI these areas are adequately funded and to ask the government, even if they have only been in for seventeen hours, to be, at least in their policy direction, accountable For what they are going to do, then I think what 1.ue need is not a parliamentary system, what we want is a dictatorship.

There is one outstanding omission in this budget which no one as yet has referred to, and I think perhaps it would be worthwhilE· . I am not sure which department it should be in, possibly the Department of Public Works. I would think that next year we would likE• l:o ser::1 in th(:! budqr::.t allocation for thirty -one soapbox1':!S For rm.>r nbE!t's opposil:e, because it obviously is nut sufficient For them to havP a seat in the House, thE!Y nE!t:'d a soa pb ox to stand on so they can cont.ir1l.l1~ to prE!ach. SOME HON. MEMBERS : HE:'ar, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Mini ster of Educa tion. DR. WARREN : Mr.

Speaker, just two or threE! comments I IAIOUJ.d like to rnrtke. I '::onjoy,:>d very much l:.he <hscuss ·ton on the estimates. I learned a gr1:!at dHal through the exp(~~~ ·ience, and hopefully next year I can irnpJ~ove illY First --class P''!l~foi"JIIanc:O! of thi.~; YE!ar in ansLvf::'ln.in~; questions. SOME HON . MEMBERS : 11oar, hc: •ar J MS VERGE: Very admirable . Very admirable . DR. WARREN: One of the themes, Mr. Speakur, of No. 21 R 1107

the discussion was this question of equality. This has to be an educational issue for the 1990s as well as the 1980s. Certainly this government believes that there should be greater equality of educational opportunity, gender equality, and many other a~pects of equality. Certainly it is our intention to ensure that greater equality is provided for the students throughout this Province irrespective of where they reside, or irrespective of the wealth of their parents, or the social econo~ic background from which they come. We believe that. MR. TOBIN : Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question? AN HON .

MEMBER : Do not let him ask it? MR . TOBIN: I believe what the hon. minister is saying, Mr . Speaker. I know he is a very sincere. very genuine individual and I have a lot of respect for him. I am just wondering if. when he says that. he is prepared to commit a high school to Petit Forte an d South East Bight. DR. WARREN : Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to visit any schools in this Province. I have visited hundreds of schools. I have already agreed with the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Langdon) I a1n going to some of the smallest s~hools in this Province .

I would be delighted to visit the schools, and over the next Few years we are going to change some things. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! DR. WARREN: But this question of equality, Mr . L1108 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI Speaker, is a major issue. The han. member for Humber East mentioned that you cannot have e qua 1 it y with j u s t e q u a 1 do 11 a r s . you have to spend unequally to have equality of educational opportunity. Those people who are most disadvantaged require higher spending. And this is onE! of the problems with the school tax equalization system. It is a move in the right direction .

This year we put into that fund an exl:ra $1 million over and above what was promised or what lAJas plann1;:!d. We put $5.5 million into it for a total of $10 million. The first year of that pian $2 rrrillion liJE!nt in, the second year a ~1>2. 5 lni11ion went in, the third YE!ar $4 .. 5 million and this year it W1:>11t to $10 million. We need anothE !r', I would su<jgest, r-11~. ~.3pt" aker, '~ S million to provide equal dollars for boards throughout this Province.

But evNl that is nul:: enough, because we have l:o spend more on the disadvantaged areas of this Province to provide greater equality of educational opportunity at both the post-secondary leVE!Ol and thH el1?1nentary and secondary lo.vels . On the couple of other issues that came up: The quest':ion of school b o a r d e 1 e c ti . o n s . T h e y a r· e c o trri n ~1 this Fall. [t is :ny hupe l:ha t many more Newfoundlanders and Labradorians tAJill run Fo1~ el1:!c U.on to school boards. It is a vc:•1ny i111portant rol~? thi:'lt they pL1~1 in the educational system of this Province. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar I DR . WARREN: This Fall I will actively campaign to encourage more people to run, and also, of course, more people to come out and vote. Because No. 21 Rll08

school board contribute a educational Province, and that, and let members voluntarily great deal to the system of this let us never forget us respect that. On a couple of other issues: Accountability. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that in the Future it is not going to be easy to get money For many government services, so we have to ensure that every dollar spent we get the best value for that dollar . In education, our population is getting older. I think we are going to compE!te with Health. The competition is going to get tougher with Health and Social Services.

So we have to guarantee the public that they are getting good scholar for the dollal~, if I migh t use that slogan. It is essential that WE! do that, and I think that we are going to have to be more accountablE!. This gets mE! into a question raised by the hon. member for Humber East, the question oF sharing. I have been a long time supporter of sharing - sharing among schools within a school board, sharing among schools of the samE! denomination, and sharing among schools of different denominations.

I have already indicated to the people of this Proldi1CE! that I arn going to convene a meeting with thE! church authorities E•arly this Fall to put this on the agenda. I, in fact, might be a little mon! pro-active than 1ny good friE!nd for St. Mary's - The CapE•s. I have heard him on interdenominational sharing. I might be ju st a little more pro-act.itJe as a minister to get this on the agenda and to sit down with the authorities. In fact.

I may even convene a forum oF people this Fall to openly discuss this whole question of interdenorninational sharing tJJithin Ll109 June 28, 1989 Vo 1 XLI the denominational system . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. WARREN: I believe, with declining enrollments and fetAl dol Jars, thE! t:ime has come For us to look at some more changes in the traditional system we have had the sharing of serviCE!S, sharing of buildings, sharing of specialists and sharing of programs . Certainly we are going to have difFiculty with the amount of money.

You look at what lAJe are spending on E!ducaU .on in this Province, and people have asked rne how much more is necessary? Much, much more. I estimated recently that we needed another $180 m i 11 i o n t o b 1~ i n g u s u p !: o L :, ::• Canadian average, to bE! spE!nt on elementary and s0condary education. We do need that tn bring it to the Canadian avE• rag tO!. Maybe we need more than the Canadian average, because we hav1:'! been so disadvantagE!d For~ such a long period oF tirne. He have geography, a major pr·ob]ern in education in this Province.

We arE! going to nuE •d rnuch n\<ll" '('' :;::::nr: ·v in the Future, but expenditui "t:'S on education are investments. Thi s is an investment in our Future and I a1n dr:!lig hted to b:c• p,:, ti' 'L. ui-· ,,, govern 111 E' n ·t t h a t p u i: <::! lj u c c.~ l: . .i t,.J n • health and dE!VeloplrlE!nt a~; tl'n~ee of" the corners tones for the f'"u l:u1~1:~ of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! DR. WARREN: Educational expenditures Ct i' ~·~ investments. I, oF course, that over the next fE!lJJ ye<:u~s hopE! the Federal government will get involved.

What is this country all about iF it is not shar·inq No. 21 R 1109

within the federal context? We have had federal monies put into education in the past, into post-secondary, but this federal government has to put in more money so that we have equality not just within this Province but wi t hi n the c o u n try , s o t hat are people can compete. It is investment in our people, Mr. Speaker, that we are talking about, not educational expenditures. I hope, over thE ! next few months. that I will have many opportunities to dis cus s views on post-secondary education . The time has comE!, it seem s to mE!, to re-think some of the structures we have in post-s econdary . In St.

John 1 s we hav e four po s t·-secondary institutions. I hope we can look at how they can share and work together. Maybe som e restructuring is ne cessary. I want to do that in the future. I am excited about educational television and tE !Chnology and the future of that in education. The hon. mr:'mber for the Burin Penin sula ha s not said anything ab out wh at Lue are go in g to do in Bu1nin wit h tel• ?cor n:nuni cat ion and teleconferencing. That was an excellent announcement in this budget .

We announced that we wer e g o i n q a h e ad v.Ji l: h t h a t . ~'II e h e a r d quite a bit abou t Labrador. but v.Je did not hear anything from the hon. members about this exciting <:lXperiment that tAJe ar e conducting on th e Burin Penin sul a. I am deligh te d with it . MR. lOBIN : That t.ua s already announcE-d . You are three months too late . DR. WARREN: We announced that l.Ue Wei~E! going to do it ·this te1nm . We WE!re going l:o do it. this Fall .

We haVE! al so LlllO June 28, 1989 Vol XU done a great deal in educational television at the high school level, and I am excited about: the possibility of teleconferencing and technology for the future oF schools in rural Newfoundland, using the latest in technology . Mr . Speaker, these are so1nE! of 111y thoughts and I hope to get many opportunities in the future to expand on these and other views. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han. the HlE!rnbc:•r For Fol~t:une - Hermitage. MR .

LANGDON : When I look at SOifl!'' or· th•.:• ministers I think of Tennyson's poern, 11 ••• 0zymandias, Icing oF kings;/Look on 111y works, yo Mighty, and despair! 11 bE! cau se in a sense they set. thc,rnselves up r·~or absolutes, and once you set yourself for absolutes it is practically impossiblE! to n1ainLa .in it, and once you Fall, l:hcon , obviousJ.y, the fall. is going to be bi g. I enjoyed l:he Committee structu1n1:lS I !Alas involvE•cl wi. th , parU cuJ.arly v.ri l:h l:lduca tion.

I think l:ha t any province, or any country, if it:. hopes to attain an acceptable level of econorrri.c pr·osperity, then t h e E! cJ U C a t. i 0 n a J. J. (! V I' 1 0 r- i. l:. S peoplE! rnusl bE• such t.hal: th ey can avail oF the vo c at.ion~l an d professional occupations that ai'·1:~ cJ~I:'atl:!d eithE!r by state Ol'' by the priva t:E' sec to1n . Unquestionably, the educational level in this Province has risen subs t.anbally over the YE!ars; however, there is no l: unani111ous consent as to IA.Ih E! thE' r we havE' No . 21 rn 1.10

gotten the best value for the dollars spent on education . But we have to utilize what we have to its fullest potential. For example, at the pr·esent time, in the community college in Stephenville, the commercial driving school course being offered has a waiting list of tlAJO years .

And since the trains have disapp eared from the tracks in this Province, and tractor trailers have taken the bulk of that particular freight load, then I do not think we should haVE! a facility with a two-year waiting period when many of our unemployed people would like to be able to enter that particular institution and avail of the vocational opportunity that is there. So, my suggestion to th E! Minister of Education would be to look at onE ! of the commun ity colleges across the Island, probably, for E!Xample, the one on Bel1 Island, that has a 65 pupil enrolment for this year.

The building is really underu ·tilized and we might be able to install a sE•condary commercial driving school in th e facility and mak e that pa rt:icular com mu nit y coll ege viabl e. I think by doing that we would alleviate the bottleneck that has been at the St ep henville campus for a long, long tirn1?.. I t;..Jas also inte rested in the comment made by the minister, M1n. Speaker, regarding the school board elections this Fall.

One of' the contentious issues has been with the Federation of Municipalities and the towns in this Pr 'o vinCE!, t.h at the ~;chool boards have not been participating in the cost to run these particular elections and the towns have had to bear the wholE! brunt of them.

So, in a sense, then, if the school boards cline going to be L 1111 June 28 , 1989 Vol XLI availing of the roles and facilities of the towns getting the people involVE!d, they should be responsiblE! part of the cost . th E! and then for I think, also, that the school tax authorities are in favour oF that, especially the comrrli:!Jncial par t of it, because they are reap'.ing the reward, so to spE!ak, from th E:' commercial establishments, and th e towns figure they should play an active

part in that. Speaking of funding for school boards, I arn pleased also with thE! amount oF rnoney that has beE•n put in for equalization grants. I have already discussed with the rninisteln, Min.

SpeakE!r, thE:! fact that so 1n e or l: he s c h o o l boa ,.. d s ·in this Province cannot r'eaJ.ly be in agreernen t with the way Funds ar:~ allocated at this parti.cula1n ·t:-irnr:!, and it rnight n( ·c·d sornE! runn or: change in legislation so they will not get thE!ir funding on per sludc•nt capita, but it could bC::! lJ..Ji t h , as we s u q g 1?. s t: e d ~~a r 1 i 1?. r , the age of the school, thE• geographic factors includE:'cL and at;..kti~d granl:s in a similar way to what we do f'or light and heat in these schools.

I already rniniste:~ Lhat discussed lAJ.il:h t h e s c h o o 1 b o a 1" cl thE! in Lhe area I represent., the integrated board in Fortune Bay, is really, for all intents and purposes, bankrupt. That. particular board, iF "Ll:. lAJ<:•J"::) a privat::! business, wou1d hdvu ~JUrJC'! under. And, co1ne Sept:.emb1:•r, euen with the new monies there from equalization grants, that school board is still looking at a current account deficit of $250,000. I t.uas taJ.I<ing with the ass:i. stan t superintendE !nt and one or the co-ordinator s only yesterday , heinE• No. 21 R 1 1 11

in the House, and th ey are really concerned about what is going to happen to their school board, come September. I think these school boards should really have their needs addressed, because the minister is already on record as saying, Mr. Speaker, that regardle ss of where we live in this Province, whether in a rural or an urban area, everybody should have equal access and equal rights to education. That is not the case with many of the small rural school boards in this Province.

I unders ·tand, too, that there is no short-term plan in which th es e school boards are going to be amalgamated or taken under th(~ wing of a J.a1nger school board. So really, in a se nse, this bo ard has to be compensated now . Also, wheen WE! look at the student aid program our students have to be administered under, and I have already discussed that also, Mr. Speaker, with the minister, and it was brought up in the Estimat es Committee, 25 per cent of aJ.l the money allocated for Stud ent Aid goes into admini strati on.

I th ink that is rela tively high. i3E•c a.u :oe if you have such a large administrative cost, there should be som e cuay to red uce i l: so tha t rnon ::;!y could go to tho s l~uden ts 1.11ho basically need it. Also, along these same lines, there is no doubt that many of the studE!nts, and I guess piAacticdJ.ly all the students here in l~hE! University, are upset about the fact tha ·t tht:!re is· a 10 p(~r CC:!nt increase in tuition fees.

Along with the other increases, in student identification, in the health plan, and so on, it is going to be more than 10 per CE!nt and it is going to cause some unnecessary hardship on these Lll1.2 June 28, 1989 Vol XLI students who are attending this particular institution.

When we realize, and I am sure the minister can identify wi th this, and I am not being facetiou s when I say this, I arn not being as:inine in my remarks eith er, I am sincere, when th e Econom ic Recovery Team has been in place and jobs have been created and th e young people in this Province do have a better opportunity to avail of jobs that are available to them once they com e out of th e University, then probably we coul d ascertain the 10 per cent increa se, and probably eve n on e that is higher .

But at thi s present time there are 1nany post-secondary st udent s in this Prov ince u1ho cann ot ·Fi nd jobs, t.u ho ar E! un abl e to Fin d woJ"i<, yut l.~:·~ e~t have to <JO bi'!Ck to Univr:•r s i.!~y in the FalJ. w:i.th the in ctnea sE• rn d ldn ~J th e burden much more di ffic ult . It is some of those I raise as welJ.. cuncE•rns that Also, when JJJe were looking at Estimates, I was the (:!xpansion to facilities in this l:he Hr::'!alth thinking about t::,,, hospii:.,:ql Province . T c u 1 n c~ 1-- r u in ~-in l.;. i • u L"i -~ r1 :·:-

c) r~ ~-:. u i1 :....: Hermitage whE:'re therE:' is a cottage hospital, in Harbour Breton, that was built fjfty years ago, and t.h'~~~ ~ pFlrr·icul,,Jr h0sp -i.l:.••l "i.s Ln a deplorable condition because oF i.ts aged structure. In fact, sorne of the pillars that h!ep tho foundation of that

part iculdr s l;n u c t: u lA e j, i\ p 1 a c (! "' !'' l' J. i t 1':' ;n d :l. 1 y fa 11 i. n g d OtJJ n , ('t n d no subs l~ an i:. i a 1 work done has b c• en donE:· on t: hat~ over the years. So in that pcll"ticuJ.aJA •;!•: •oqJnaph j cai. i:'\l'f:'d ,:,:· the Province, then, these people are looking for improved facilities, Lhey are looking for a nE!lAI institution, for acutE! and chronic care, that lJ..Iill look aFl':(:'r the whole arE!t'l of that part.-.i.cu1cH' No. 21 Rlll2

part of the coast. It is in that light that I hope these particular new programs, which are being outlined by the ministers, can really, in a sense, address the needs of the rural people in this Province. And it is, I guess, the same basic, nagging question as well when we look at the Social Services Department. The minister has said, and I guess the fact is we all make political hay, that all of these problems were compounded over seventeen years, when this party was in government, all these things are there as a result of that.

I do not think we should ever lose sight of the fact, though, that there are some serious, glaring problt~1ns in Social Services in this Province. I was talking to a lady yestE!rday who, over the last year, has been living in a house the Department of Social Services pays $290 a month for, where she has no heat apart from a rangE~tte, where she has no hot water tank, and a sporadic water supply. lo me, that is wrong and, t.he!~efore. 1 t. is those types oF thi~ss ~h1ch have to be addressed. That is not an isolated case, that particular situat.i.on exists in many pc1rts of this Province.

There is no doubt about it, we have to have compassion and understanding For thE! p1:'ople, dnd onCE! we have that cornpasC:;ion iHld understanding, be ablE! l:o acldr(::!SS the nE!eds and work at it., not From a political po·int oF view but Fro111 a govel"nrTH"'ntal point of· vir''t..\J, where people on either side oF the House have something to offer. WE! have already heard these particular cornrnE!nts being made, that no one particular individual I guess has a monopoly on thE:' WclY 1..1113 June 28, 1989 Uol XLI to do things.

And I guess anytime we think we are indispensable, we should put our hands into a bucket, take up a handful of the water and the hole that is left is how indispensable we are. I think if we look at it fl~orn that perspec·tive it clearly shotAJs that no one particuJ.ar individual, no one particular party, in any situation, has all the answers to our problems. And it is these particular problems that I will try to address over the nurnbE!r of years that I reprE'Sent thE! pE!Ople in my district. In concluding, that bEdng ComrnittE!eS E!Xpel~ienCE'.

I would on the was a like to say Estlrnates learning I t h i n k I o v e ~~ h E! d I" ci L h c i\11 i n .i. s i_ r::' r· of Social 5el~vtc:cs '>-"Y one:' nicJht, 'If you think that these guys asked a lot oF qu~~st.'ions, i.F you think they were persistent, you should have heard me over the last number of years.' 5o, therE!fOI~E!, it is our job, it is our dul:y, I guess, to prod thE! minis tel~. rJll~ . E F F 0 R D : 3 u t I ~::1 s ~< :~~ d s t:~ n s ..!.:. t 1. :~~ r :i 1 J ~: ··:, !··. L c n ·; . MR.

LANGDON: 5o did I ask And [ got would think, asked. sensible sensible to the questions. answers, I questions I U~t us all l~eal:iz::!, \:'lS I ~>d.ic! CCJ.I"l·i.el~ t_hat none of us hc:tve el-l L l:he answers to .::tll Lhc! pr·obh,tns, and thr:' ful~thel~ I.I..JE' seL OUI"selvus up thE! h a r' d t! r IAJ E' fa 11 . L ,,, l: us h o p e t: hat no b o cl y r· l'\ 1 l " , t. h c't l__ \AI,, all do our jobs equally well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: No. 21 R 1113

The hon. the Minister of Education . DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I just have two or three brief comments . The hon . member raised two or three very important issues. The report of the Task Forc e on Educational Funding will be submitted to the department within three weeks. I gather, and hopefully after that we can release it. That report will address some of the hon. member 1 s concerns about the new grant system. I have already indica ted to him in estimates that I believe the grant system neE!dS to be totally reviewed, revised, and that task forc e report, hopefully. will suggest directi ons for the future .

The second point he raised, Mr . Speaker, dealt lAiith the funding of capital. As the House knows. in this budget the government increased capital spending from $20 million to $27 million, a $7 million incrE•ase for each of the next three years . In this year 1 s increase. M1n. Speaker. there is an amount of $2.5 million for debt retirE!rnent for boards that have a very high debt ratio, over , I might suggest, $300 per student per year. That amount will bring boards. J.ike the board in the hon. member 1 s d.ist:r·icl~. clotJJn substantialJ.y.

It wi1J. be some help to his board in the interim, until we review the whole grant system. But there is an amount: of $2 . 5 mi 11 ion to he 1 p in d r:d:J t re tirern ent for boards this corning year. Mr. SpeakE!In, he mentioned U1 r::• stud E•nt aid sy stl:'m and l:h e efficiency of that sy stem . I can assure him that the Student Aid Division within the DE!partrnent of Education is working hard to make the lAJhole system rnore E•ff'iciE•nt. Ll114- June 28, 1989 Vol XLI Computers are now being us ed. and I guarantee him that application s are being processed very efficiently. AN HON. MEMBER : That is right .

DR . WARREN : The hon. membE!r acr os s who was Minister of Development in the government, acknowledg es is happening. th o t.-Jay. CarE!er former that that One other point : On the rural urban discrepancy, th e goVE!rrmwn l this year announced a $3.4- lni1l:ion fund for tE!achE!r ai.cles. Th at amount of money will be distributed on a formul a throughout l~h1?. Provoi.nce l~h a t lAI"i 11 treat urban and ru ral di strict s a 1 i k e . The h o n . l h e 111 ~~ rn b I::! r f' o r St. Mary 1 s ..... The CapE !~' knotJJ s Lhc 1l .. in the past we have had some anomaJ.ies in that fund in g system . St.

John 1 s qot a cert.ain amount p1:•1" student per yE!ar , much mol n(:! than the rest of the Provin ce, r~·or the employment of teac her aides and for handi capped children. This new fo1nrnula is an a.t.L.C::! :np'L l:.o prov :i.de bets icall y t:J, ,,. ~;<."t: ne ~'!JS L <''in throughout the Province so Lhat all districts will be treated more equitably in the future .

We al"r:! d e l i g h L ,,, d t;.d l~ h l: h d t. c1 n n o u n c u 11 w n l: .. a11d rny de pal" Llrl!::!l'l l . .i.s g ~C· L l..l .,iq 1· ,_,c,dy< to release detail s about th e tE·acher aide program, thE! funclinq, the tra ining and l~he ~~1nploy1ntH1 t of t h e s E! t e a c h t:! I" a -j d e s by ~~ ~- h o o 1 boards. rhe l'nOII1:-y is <]Oil'l<J hl /:::(;! g i v E:~ n to t h E:' b

I) at" d s a n cl l. h I'' b o a r d s . t h ~~ n . tAli . ll e m p 1 o y p ''! r' s o n s t o s e t" v e i n l. h e s l':' c t'l p a c oi. L. i. :=• •; . Thank you. Mr. ~3pc•akel" . SOME HON. MEMB ERS: Hear . hear! MR. SPEAI<ER : No. 21 I< 1111~

The hon. the member' for St. Mary 1 s -The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I lAJould like to have a felAJ words on the debate on the educational issue. A couple of things mentioned by the minister in his speech: One, going back to the allocation of funding for equalization this year, when he was mentioning the amount, $5.5 million approximately, he said it tAJas $1 million more than tJ..Jas plann<:~d. Now, that is not exactly factual.

When the progl"am lJ..Jas introclucE•d, and it. was intl"oducE:~d by us three years ago, it was stated quite clearly to the boards and everyone else that in five years we would aim For full equaJ.ization. That program, to be on schedule, it Wi- :J.S thought that tAlith t.tAJO years r<::'tnaining it. would be $4-.5 million a year, and that would be dead on with what the minister said. liolAJevel", it had been decided, and committed, actuaLly, dut"ing the election and beforehand in the budget pt"E!paration, to achieve full eq ualization this year.

And the Opposition, during the last year -and-a-half, I guess, had zeroE!d in on equali.zati.on as one oF l:he b:.y issu(:'s -Ln l:he Provtnce, and it is. I have no doubt about that. What this equalization grant has clone is it has given boards tAJith l:he inabi.ltty to r·aise money l.hemSE!lUE!S through the school l:ax authorities a chancl?. to have equal funding with boards who arl:'! in the areas l:hat ar'(:! fairly well off economically. And the rnoney, oF course, tr·anslates t.o a per pupil expenditure in these schools - extremely important.

But it became such a popular issue that everyone jurnp~:~cl on it, the NTA after awhile, and then the L 1115 June 28, 1989 IJol XU Liberals, and they were saying, 1 But you must go for full equalization, 1 and the:ir commitment was for full equalization. So we c.u·e disappointed that, unlike lAJhat tAle were comrni t·tecl to do and had budgeted to do, the gOVE!Y'niTI(!I') r: nOtAl failed to come up ur:ith fu11 equalization. The Premier himself, I know, at a meeting out in Lewis porte, cheer·ecl by some good Liberals, committed himself solidly to equalization. Certainly, you lAJould think he would have delivered.

But the moue is cetnt.ainly a posit:.iv(:! sign to boards that they are coming out of the depth of r(:•d a Jol: oF Uwm we I" E:' i n . A ll o f t h E:' m ul r:· I" e n o l: :i. n i t , by l:. he \Ala y . A 11 s c h o o 1 bod I" cl s are not in debt, soJn(• cd Lhr::•rn <H ·,:: in a relatively good position financia1ly. That rrt:i.~Jht mean they are not in a good position in relation to rnat:.er·ials, and so on, fot" schools, and that i.s 111aybe e u en lAJO I" s E! than be :i. n g j n l: h r::• I" c::~ cl .

But soml':' of l:h(:• boat"ds E:~conornically, at J.east on papE!I ", are tn Fair shape. \he Ci::1p tt .. --\J df'•bl: . t·"''"·;i: '"'! C'i·•.IJ"i ;'!•:j that the minister mentions, which tAJas also put in place by us, drtd the boards knotAl that, is a v '~ r·v posit.ive rnov(~. l ,,,rn qlttd L:u ~;(' i:' he bl"ought that :i.n aJso, becauSE! What it does is goive SO!n(o' ofc tl'1(~ boards that are deeply mired in dE!bl: a chanu! l:o cu1n:~ up, a bt"f':•athin<:J space, S(l thr·.v Cdl1 u: ·.c::· the ex l·:ra Funds l·:h"'Y d i" U n1'IAJ getting to put SOifiE!

E!X lt"a clu11ai"S into Pl"ogr'at!IITt.ing insl~£ ·ad Gl pult:.in~:j the !T!ill"lc>y :i.r 1l () cl:•bL. char·ges. Unfortunately, and I think the minister will agJ"N! tAlith t.h:i .s, I have said it several l:.irnes, tnost of the debt out thet"e :i.s a t"esu] l:. No . 21 1~11.15

!it of the boards having to borrow, a policy that was in place and we changed, by the way. It was the first thing we did in the Department of Education, som e years ago. Ten per cent they had to borrow on capital construction, and that t.uas what caused most of them to have heavy debts. Of course, in order to pay th e capital debt th ey had to use th e operational funds given them each year for that purpose, which left them very little money on which to operate their buildings. But these are all positive thing s which are happening. Om~ conCE!rn I have, however, is in rela-t.ion to l~he shaJ"e of the pie .

This J.ast yeat" and-a--half, since things began to happen in education and WE:! began to atl:: r'act the attention of people around, including the Opposition and the NTA, and good policies like equilization and what have you came into place, the special education project, the improvement in teachE!r aide programs, all oF which, by the way, are Tory programs, not ne w ones cre ated by the Department - AN HON. MEMBER : Not only the lories (inaudible) . MR. liEriRN : I am gla