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-. ---- ·---- ·· Ju~e 16th., 1981 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. ')Cape No. 2504 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. ow - l MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member" for :.:C.aPoile. A point of privilege? A point of order? MR. S. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think this is the right way to do it,to stand on a point of order rather than a point of privilege,because I do not wish to raise a matter of priyilege at this time.

I just want to put the House under notice that we are not sleeping on our rights as far as the schmozzle that developed at twenty minutes to six yesterday evening is concerned,that we have tremendous research to do on this matter, and when our research is complete- SOME HON. ~~MBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: What is so funny? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. S. NEARY: - when the research is complete, Mr. Speaker, then we will take the appropriate action. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. W.

MARSHALL: On that point of order,whatever that point of order is , first of all a point of order must be taken up at the earliest possible opportunity. Secondly, Mr. Speaker- and I do not wish to get into debate about what happened yesterday. It is unfortunate what happened and it is even more unfortunate the han. member has got the gall to bring it up again - but the situation is, ~1r. Speaker, that there was a motion for adjournment that was made by the hon. gent leman, that the hon. gentleman interrupted another 6 7 4 s

June 16th., 1981 Tape No. 2504 DW - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: hon. gentleman when he was speaking and took over again from the Opposition,which is against the rules. A division was called, a division was properly held, everything was in accordance with and in concert with the rules. It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman takes this attitude that he is caking towards the House. But I would re~ind the hon. gentleman this is not a high school, it is not an elementary school neither is it kindergarten: It is a parliamentary body, Mr.

Speaker, that is ruled by es.tab­ lished rules that have ~~en set down for the ordering of public bodies such as this legislature or a House of Commons I would ask the hon. member, I would hope the hon. member would in sober reflection realize that and not raise up on points of order like this. If anyone wishes points of order,he can quote ~acre 91 of Beauchesne that I have before me,and on and on as you can go on. But, Mr.

Speaker, the \-lhole operation of this House is going to get out of order itself if members are going to get up on points of order without having them grounded in the established parliamentary practices. No matter how much it may rankle hon. members what may be said in ~~e debate ' if it is not a matter, Mr. Speaker, of actual order it should not be brought up. It is certainly fair for the cut and thrust of debate to take place in the House of Asserr~ly or in any House , it is intended for that purpose , but• Mr.

Speaker, it has to be within the rules because if it is not within the rules parliamentary democracy itself falls by the wayside. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Further to the point of order, the hon. member for LaPoile. M..."t. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. gentleman took advantage of my 6746

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2505 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: point of order, which was a legitimate point of order, and a very important point of order, I might add,because it has to do with the rules of the House, that everything that happened in this House yesterday happened, as far as I am concerned, as far as my rights are concerned., an individual member' s rights are concerned, happened within the rules of the House.

But we are not quite sure whether the proper procedure was followed or not, and unless we follow the Britis h oarliamentarv traditioc, unless we stay within the rules, the Standing Orders and the rules that govern this House, then we will have nothing but anarchy. The hon. gentleman does not run the House, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: Neither does the hon. gentleman. ~- ~EARY: No,but, Mr. Speaker, we all have equal rights in this House. And the hon. crentleman's rights is no more or no less than any other member's rights in this House. • So the reason I raised the matter, Mr.

Speaker, was to put the House under notice,because you have to do that at ~he earliest opportunity. I have done that. And when we finish our research I am sure that the House will appreciate that we may not raise the matter again, or we may raise it again, depending on what conclusions we come to after we do the necessary research. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms} : Well, with respect to the point of order,let me first of all say that I recognize the point the hon. member is trying to make about privileges and rights of hon. members to raise matters which they believe to be out of order or whatever. t1y own recollection of what happened yesterday, and my own research to this point in t~.e, I will tell the hon. member for his own information, and for the information of all other hon. members, points out clearly, 6747

June 16 , l!l81 Tape No . 2505 NM - 2 M.R . SPEAICER: in our mL>1ds at least, that what transpired yesterday 'HaS perfectly in order, even though it took us twenty or t\.;enty-five minutes t0 get through it . There was a motion to adjou_-rn, made by the hor. . meml:ier for LaPoile (Mr . Neary), which is per::ectly in order. There was a divis~on called, which is perfectly in order.

It took us fifteen or twenty minut:es to get t.'lrough a number of points of or~er and points of privilege , which in fact should not have even been heard or raised be<;ause ;.;rhen a division is ir. progress no other business is to take ?lace .

I will read a couple of references ::or non . members so they will be able to reflect on those references . 'May, the 12th . edition , page 241, ''The proceedings of t.he House may be interrupted at any :nom.en;::, s.ave duri:1g t:.~e process of the ::!ivisi on, ·by a motion. based upon a matter of privilege. when a matter has rec::em:ly arisen." ~ihich i;1 ef::ect: says chat. points o£ privilege can be raised and supercede other matters of business except du!'ing the process of a division . That is quite clear. Ther~ is a further r~fcrence 6748

June 16,1981 Tape No. 2506 ah-1 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): in Beauchesne, paragraph 236, "If the Speaker's attention has been called to a breach of order in the course of a division, he has directed that the division be completed." And there are a couple of other references here which I will not read. I will read one other from May, nineteenth edition, under matters requiring immediate intervention of the House.

"Urgent matters which require the immediate intervention of the House if they should occur during the sitting of the House may be raised at once in spite of the interruption of ~~e debate or other proceedings except a division in progress." So I think one of the major points yesterday was whether o.r not the hon. member could have had a point of privilege heard during the division. The Chair disallowed that and these are the references which it used. But in any event I make those comments and we will leave it as it is The hon. member says he may wish to raise it again,that is fine. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: May I say, Mr. Speaker, for Your Honour's infomation and for the infomation of the House , that the rr.ain point that we want to research is the fact that L~e Speaker did not leave the Chair at six o'clock. Now my understandino of the rules - and this is something we have to research - is that the Speaker has to leave the Chair at six o'clock. The matter could have been disposed of at eight o'clock in the evening.

The Speaking leaving the Chair, the House then would automatically meet at eight o'clock and then the first item would have been the disposal of the motion to adjourn. And that is the item we want to research, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Well, again I do •not wish to debate that point with the hon. member.I just want to point out that the division occured at five forty-three, I believe. 6749

June 16,1981 Tape No. 2506 ah-2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. ~RSHALL: I just wish to make this observation alluding to what the hon. member said. Your Honour has given a ruling givinq his impression and the hen. gentl~rnan gets up again- and this is all a part and parcel of-it, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. gentleman wishes to raise a point of order let them get up and let them raise it , but let them use Beauchesne or use the Standing Orders or use May or use what have you.

But the hon. gentleman is showing just how deficient the hon. gentlemen are with respect to the rules in saying'when we research something we will bring it up.' But perhaps we will bring something up that carne up five, six, seven or eight years ago. MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear~ Order, please~ I think at least to this point in time 'Ne have dispensed of the matter until such time that it may be raised aqain. :vtR. NEAR.Y: I thank Your Honour. STA'l'~NTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, in April of this year I stood up in this House and outlined for the information of hon. members the negative effect on this Province of having Northern cod,which were caught in Newfoundland waters 1 processed in Nova Scotia. Just to remind the House,! had indicated that Newfoundland lost 200 man-years of employment which translated into $2.4 million in wages.

These figures make no mention of the indirect employment which would be created as a result of these additional dollars in the Newfoundland economy. >ve have recently been made aware of ~~e federal government's decision to grant licenses to Japanese fishermen to harvest 17,000 metric tons of squid. 6750

June 16,1981 Tape No. 2506 ah-3 MR. DINN: Once again the action taken by the federal go vernment is at the expense of the people of this ?r~ v ince. While the impact is not as clear-cut as the case with the Northern ccrl, it is a fact that the har vesting and 6 7 J .,

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2507 so - 1 MR. DINN: of squid offshore will mean less fish available for harvesting by Newfoundlanders. Officials of my department and the Department of Fisheries have estimated that the harvesting of 17,000 metric tons means a loss of 350 man-years of employment and $2.5 million in wages to fishermen and another approximately $5 million in wages to plant workers. In total 1 therefore, the loss of employment with respect to both the Northern cod and the squid will be 550 man-years and a loss in wages to the economy of almost $10 million.

It is becoming more obvious all the ~ime that Newfoundlanders will continue to be deprived of opportunities that are rightfully theirs until such time as the Province has greater control over the decision making process in not only the fishery but other sectors as well. My colleague , the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) ,has indicated his intention to pursue this matter with the federal Minister of Fisheries to find out more information on the reason for the federal government's decision and action. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SP&~KER (Simms) west has about one minute. MR.

HOLLETT : Statement it is just - AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. The hon. member for Burin - Placentia Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I know in this Ministerial Make sense now, boys. MR. HOLLETT: - an ongoing rhetoric simply because the minister just said we have recently been made aware of this particular 17,000 metric tons of squid. For the advice of L~ Eouse, Mr. Minister, and I am sure the Minister of Fisheries is aware , it is exactly the same amount as was available to the the Japanese last year and - MR. MORGAN: It is changed. You are wrong. 6752

___ _; _ ____ _ - - - June 16, 1981 SOME HON. ME11BERS: 11R. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. HOLLETT: Tape No. 2507 Oh, oh~ Order, please! SD - 2 Mr. Speaker, the statement said they had been recently made aware , that means this year · And for three years previous to that it was even worse because the larger fish companies in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland had almost unlimited quotas to sell to the Japaneses without even- M..l:l.. MORGAN: MR. HOLLETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. MORGAN: MR. HOLLETT: (Inaudible) no trade off in 1979.

I would just like to make that point, (Inaudible) in 1979 (inaudible) The other think I would like to question is how the Minister of Manpower and Labour (Mr. Dinn) arrived at his calculations? I think it is only fair to the House and to the press and everybody else when he quotes figures such as $2.5 million and everything else it should be substantiated,whether it is based on dried squid , which is labour intensive, if it was for bait purposes MR . DINN: MR. HOLLETT : aside, okay. MR. DINN: MR. HOLLETT: S2.5 million for the catche~. Okay. \vell, the labour content (Inaudible) content (inaudible).

But when you say the $2.5 million, Mr. Minister, it is still based on -dried squid is a dollar something a pound, for bait squid it is probably eight cents and for frozen squid it is something else. MR. TULK: He does not know that. SOME IfON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SP~R: Order, please! MR. HOLLETT: I just said it should be substantiated because anybody could question the figures. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 575]

Ju::te 16, 1981 Tape ~o. 2507 so - 3 HR. HOLL ETT: In closing, ~tr . Spe aker , I wou ld just like to briefly ;;a y that my colleague the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. ~organ) has alre ady indicated his intention to ?ursue this matter and find out what it is all about from the :ederal department . I suggest to the ML~ister of Fishe ries that we would all get along much better , especia lly the fisher.nen, i£ chis type of work was done :irst and then ~here is valid reason tt;> give the statement . SOHE HON. ME.:-!SERS: Hear, hear . 6 7 5 :~

June 16 '· 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. ~~ERS: MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. MR. BARRY: Tape 2508 Further statements. Oh, oh! EC - 1 Order, please! Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon; the Minister of Mines Mr. Speaker, I would like to call the attention of han. members of the House to a report which is being tabled at this time . This report entitled The Economic Impact of Future Of£shore Petroleum Exploration is a result of the joint efforts of the Petroleum Directorate and the Department of Development. Mr.

Speaker, our previous fore­ casting exercises have dealt with the offshore in fairly broad terms and at a level of detail commensurate with the existing data base. This previous work has bee'n made public in earlier reports of the Petroleum Directorate such as the The Economic Analysis for the Hibernia Develooment, Petroleum Resource Potential of Offshore Newfoundland and Labrador and The Effects of Federal Enercrv Policv on Offshore Newfoundland and Labrador. These reports, Mr. Speaker, re-emphasize ~~e enormous significance to the future of our Province of the petroleum resources on our Continental Shelf. Mr.

Speaker, as the body of information on the offshore increases and as the possibility of a major development at Hibernia becomes more imminent, it becomes possible and even more vital for our forecasting, analysing and planning work to enter a new and more detailed phase. This phase will deal with offshore development in more human terms, for example, the number of jobs, the 6755

______:_..!:i._ June 16, 1981 · Tape 2508 EC - 2 MR. BARRY: skill requirements and the demand for goods and services. The reports resulting from this work will therefore be extremely useful for a large number of planning purposes"ranging from questions of personal career choices to business development opportunities 1 and to requirements for government infrastructure. Mr. Speaker, the present report presents forecasts of the potential direct economic impac~ of oil and gas exploration offshore Newfoundland and Labrador during the period 1981 to 1990. Now, I stress, Mr.

Speaker, this relates to exploration only and this does not include the figures with respect to employment, goods and services and so forth that will result from the development of a field such as the Hibernia oil field. So we will have to add into the numbers of jobs and business opportunities,the jobs and so forth that will flow from development. We are doing another report and we will have further statistics as to the impact of future development. This relates to exploration only,and I want to reiterate that again.

Subsequent,related reports which will be published this year will deal with the direct effects of development and operating expenditures and the direct effects of payments received by government on our budgetary position. In addition, we will 67S6

June 116, 1981 Tape No. 2509 EL - 1 MR. BARRY: also be examining the indirect im- pact of all facets of the petroleum industry on the economy of the Province. I must point out, ~~. Speaker, that forecasting and impact assessments for a dynamic,changing industry such as offshore oil and gas over a ten year period are not easy tasks. This is a task which draws upon the cap­ abilities of many departments of government, in addition to the Petroleum Directorate, notably the departments of Develop­ ment, Labour and Manpower, Finance and the Planning and Prior­ ities Secretariat.

Co-ordination if effectedthrough the off­ shore petroleum impact committee. To accomodate the complex and dynamic nature of offshore forecasting, this work will all be computer based using models constructed in-house. Form­ ulation of the model for the present report was based on an analysis of data from a variety of sources. Areas such as the North Sea, the Beaufort Sea,and from publications issued by groups such as the New England River Basins Commission, the United Kingdom, the NOPNegian government.

Statistical data from those wells drilled in the Newfoundland and Labrador offshore area over the past fifteen years was the primary data source along with valuable information obtained from discussions with the petroleum industry officials. On the basis of a geo­ logical analysis of offshore prospects 1a range of forecasts was developed for the number of exploratory wells expected over the ten year forecast period.

Now, this forecast ranges from a low of sixty-three wells expected under the present federal energy policy to a high of 279 wells anticipated if the negative effects of the federal energy policy are removed and if industry develops the technology for drilling in deeper water. Based upon the anticinated number of wells forecast,together with the depth of each well and its location, this report provides detailed information on 6757

June 16, 1981 Tape ~o . 2509 EL - 2 MR . BAR..~Y : the quantities of goods and services by major expenditure item, :nanpower requirements by major employment category and total cost i~ terms of resulti~g wage s and salaries and expenditures on goods and services. Goods and se=vices consumed in offshore oil and gas exploration activ~ ties are given in terms of rig days, supply boat days , helicopter days,seis ­ mic vessel days, marine fuel , jet fuel, barite, bentonite, other drilling fluid additives, casings and cement. 6758 ~

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2510 IB-1 MR. BARRY: The employment forecast is broken into five major categories; drilling crew, offshore support crew, marine crew, onshore support personnel, and seismic operations personnel. Each category is reported in man-years and peak requirements. These categories include such occupations as drillers, professional engineers, derrickmen, roughnecks, roustabouts, divers, technicians, masters, mates and seamen. Mr. Speaker, the foregoing is a synopsis of the report from the point of view of the Petroleum Directorate. I have attached to the press release a copy of the

summary and conclusions which is contained in three pages right at the beginning of this report. And of course full copies are available for all members. But it is worth-while pointing out, Mr. Speaker, that total employment over this period could range from an annual low - this is yearly - of 472 man-years if the current federal energy policy continues to depress the industry 1to an annual high, Mr. Speaker - and I think this is extremely significant - an annual high, it is possible that from exploration alone we could see 2,859 man-years under the high forecast.

Almost 3,000 people could be working every year just from the exploration activity, Mr. Speaker, that we anticipate under the high estimate that could be carried on between now and 1990. And this again, I reiterate, does not include the employment that will result from development of fields and from the operation of fields once they have been developed. .~d, Mr. Speaker, expenditures,just to a~d off, total expenditures would range from an annual low of $193 million to an annual high of $1,434,000,000 constant 1981 dollars. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is all I have to say at the present time.

W'e <..rill be having a press conference at four o'clock. My colleague, the hon. Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) will now provide you with further details on the content of this report. 6759

June 16, 1981 SOME EON . MEMBERS : :1R. Si?EAKER (SL'v!M.S ): }!R . WINDSOR : Tape No. 2510 IB-2 Hear, hear! The hon. Mini ster of Development. Mr . Speaker, as the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr .

Barry} has stated ~~e report entitled "The Economic Imoact of Fu"t:ure Offshore Petroluem Exploration", has been a joint undert~~ing between the Depar~~nt of ~evelopment and the Petroleum Directorate It is the first of several reports tha"t: individually and collectively will help us plan, amongst other things, an i~dustrial development strate~t not only !or t~e 9etroleum indu stry but :or the economy as a whole. The report considers the te n year ?eriod 1~81 -1990 and its detailed :orecasts are based on the nur.ber of axpl oratory we ll s antici?ated during the de cade ~der review .

U si~g these well :orecasts L~e report provid es an impact forecast in terms of goods, services and emp1oyma'1t needed to support the drilling of these wells. 67 Gn

June 16, 1981 Tape. No. 2511 NM - 1 MR. WINDSOR : the drilling of these wells. Total expenditures on exploration over the forecast period are al3o discussed and analyzed. The report also discusses the ~urrent provincial share of these expenditures and the possible. future share accruing to the provincial economy. At this time, Mr. Speaker, total local labour directly employed in offshore exploration is high, ranging anywhere from 55 per cent to 71 per cent. By the end of the forecast decade the rate of local labour participation is anticipated at between 90 per cent and 95 per cent.

While local participation in the provision of goods and services has been low relative to total expe.nditures 1 it represents a maximization of the oPportunities available to our businessmen considering the erratic level of exploration and the seasonal nature of the activity in the past. Many of these negative factors are now disappearing, or are at least being significantly lessened. There has now been continuous drilling on the Grand Bank since May of 1979.

Sectors of the service and supply industry that in the past were not considered good opportunities because of low volume or a high degree of seasonality 1 may new be reaching the level necessary to sustain local involvement. In addition 1 the development of fields such as Hibernia will certainly increase the demand for offshore related goods and services and help add to the demand created by the exploration phase. In the introductory

section of this report there is a table showing the possible range of the direct impact in 1990, compared with the 1981 impact. There are several important conclusions which may be drawn from this analysis:. The. first is that exploration 6 7 o 'I

June 16,- 198.1 Tape No. 2511 NM - 2 MR. WINDSOR: alone, indepe~t of developrn~~t, has the potential to have significant impact on the provincial economy , and urider the high forecast would approach that of the development phase of Hibernia. Total expenditure on exploration over the ten year ' forecast period ranges from $2.4 billion to a little under $10 billion. The current estimate for Hibernia development is in the range of $5 billion to $7 billion.

The second conclusion is that the ultimate level of impact depends, to a large degree, on the level of exploration and to a lesser degree on the rate of participation. If the federal enerqy nolicy is maintained, the actual level of exploration attained <."i"ill be at the lower end of the forecast. Therefore, the level of economic activity in the ?rovince, as a result of exploration, could decrease substantially unless the Province succeeds in providing a signficantly higher share of goods and services than at present.

It is,therefore 1 crucial that the Province continues its efforts to modify the federal energy policy to make it mora compatable with the objectives of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Another important conclusion in this report is that the provincial government has been successful in ensuring a high provincial share in the direct employment generated by the petroleum industry. Policies will continue to be directed at improving this share even further.

A significant improvement, however, can be anticipated in the provision of goods and services increasing from $17 million in 1981 to a possible high of $99 million by 1990. 6762

June 16th., 1981 Tape No. 2512 DW - l MR. N. WINDSOR: This would be an increase of approximately 600 per cent in the dollar value and an increase from 11.5 per cent to 20 per cent of the share of total expenditures going into the local economy. Such a change would result in a significant increase in indirect employment.

Since the direct employment measures have been relatively success- ful and employment offshore is gradually reaching a saturation point,government policy emphasis should shift more to the indirect employment which could be generated by increasing goods and services provided from within the Province. The current strengthening of the offshore services unit in the Department of Development is an important element in this shift in emphasis. Finally, Mr. Speaker, this report clearly indicates that a large number of drilling rigs and supply boats will be required during the next decade in the provincial offshore.

Local ownership of some of these rigs and supply boats would greatly enhance the benefits that the Province would obtain from the offshore. In order to investigate this matter in more detail,the Department of Development and the Petroleum Directorate will make an estimate of the requirements for supply boats, rigs, etcetera,during the period 1981 to 1990 in relation to all petroleum related drilling in the Province including exploratory, delineation and development drilling.

Additionally, the Depart­ ment of Development intends to undertake a study of downstream activities associated with oil and gas pro­ duction. Considering that under our regulations the government has a right to accept its royalty in the form of oil and gas rather than in cash , it may prove very desireable to further process oil and gas in the Province 6 7 i:d

June 16th., 1981 Tape No. 2512 ow - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: not only for our own use but for export as well. With the tabling of this report, Mr. Speaker, I feel we have not only demonstrated ~hat this government is giving serious consideration to planning for future oil and gas activity but we have pro­ vided an order of magnitude to an aspect of this important industry that I am sure will be of irnrneasureable help to the business community and to the general public at large. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Leader of the Opposition has about seven minutes. MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker.

I too would like to compliment the authors of the report-although it was just delivered to the Opposi­ tion side. I would also compliment the ministers;they read it very well,exactly as it was written,and it may be a new trend now that ~e have the ministers sharing the responsibility. And I wonder if the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) ,who is playing second fiddle to the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry),will really be upset that what happened when the Minister of Mines and Energy presented his statement he attached it - this insignificant thing that he attached,was also the statement that the minister gave as being from the Minister of Development. Now, Mr. Speaker, if press releases and material being turned out could only guaran­ tee the prosperity of this Province,we would be wealthy beyond drea~s. We have seen two or three years of press releases · Now, ~tr. Speaker, what does this really say? This reall2r says that somewhere in the Department of Development and the Department of Mines and Energy 6754

June 16, 1981 Tape 2513 EC - l MR. STIRLING: another consulting assignment has been given. They have not told us what the cost of this consulting assignment is. What they have said is that they are now going to buy a computer and they are now going to create computer models in-house. Now, does that mean that we now have a new computer company being set up in addition to Newfoundland Computer Services? Are we now going to create all of the jobs involved with the offshore really in-house? Mr. Speaker, two or three things included in this that are worthy of comment: first of all, Mr.

Speaker, that everything to this point has to do with exploration. With full co-operation of the federal government we are using the provincial government's regulations and at this stage, Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter as brought out in this statement is that the only benefit gathered by local business and local indirect employment amounts to ll per cent of the total expenditures in the offshore. And that is under their regulations, Mr. Speaker, under their total control. Only ll per cent, Mr. Speaker, ll per cent, and they are hoping - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPR~ER (Simms): Order, please!

Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - they are hoping, Mr. Speaker, to bring that up to 20 per cent. SOME' HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. STIRLING: Having recognized, Mr. Speaker, that there are more people working at Woolco than are working in the offshore operation, more impact here by Wool co, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! '"";- r b I 0 :J

June 16, 1981 Tape 2513 £C - 2 MR. STIRLI NG: Mr. Speaker, this kind of preliminary work whic~ is ~ow being brought out by this government is so academiC', it is so basic, Mr. Speaker, that it should have been done ten year s ago by the two Min ister s of Mines and Energy, now the .Premier and his - SOME nON. ~EMBERS: Oh , oh! MR. STT:U.ING: All of this material, Mr. Speaker, does on.ly point out that there is no training school in Newfoundland for any of these jobs. It is going to take our consultant - Who is t~e consultant? Dr .

Pedro Van ~1uir, who was the first man autho rized by thi .s gov ernmen t to talk about guerilla warfare , the first man au~~orized in .~b~~a, because I did not recognize Dr . ?edro Van ~uir as a ~ember of the government. But I understand that he is also a consult ant to China ,and it is appropriate t~at che consultant to China and the consultant to - SOME nON . ~3ERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEME R (S imms): Order, pleas e! ~. STIRLING: In

summary, ~ . Speaker, let me say chat this gov ernmen~ ha s now reached the point where they are doing the most basic thing . They have don e no~~ing with training schools . A young man who is L~volved in the of!shore said !or all of the noi se about 6..,-,.. I ti 0

June 16,1981 Tape No. 2514 ah-1 MR. STIRLING: employment opportunities in the offshore,there is no local training being done. And this is a good first step, Mr.Speaker; the most basic thing that should have been done ten years ago is now being introduced as saying we are now going to do some projections dealing with exploration,and they agreed that has nothing to do with development.

Exploration has been going on for ten years and this government finally now is bringing out a great deal of paper to say they are going to look at the most basic assumptions, what are the jobs and what are the opportuni~ies involved - not with development. It will be developed for about twenty years before they get around to doing some of those assessments. Mr. Speaker, they are ten years behind in this very basic piece of work. And, Mr. Speaker, from this side we certainly welcome it. We assumed this was done ten years ago. But, Mr. Speaker, we look forward to seeing some results.

These 7,000 Newfoundlanders that are involved now on a waiting list- not on the offshore, involved on a l'laiting list - a Premier who would not answer a question about what he was going to do on the West coast of Newfoundland to give fair opportunities to people throughout this Province to at least get on the waiting list,and the kind of deception that says to Newfoundlanders,Just be satisfied' and you get this kind of thing that only tends to confirm that ~~ere are about 400 jobs being created in the offshore at the most realistic estimate, 2800 at the best and wildest estimat& If the petroleum industry learns or develops the technology to explore in deeper waters, that is where the 2800 jobs will come in.

Mr. Speaker, on this side we welcome this most basic step but ~ve would like for the government to get on to the real problems of this Province 1dealing with ,.... ..., ..,. 7 b I tJ I

June 16,1981 Tape No. 2 514 ah-2 MR. STIRLING: the here and now, dealing with the fisheries, dealing with roads, dealing with the opportunities for development and dealing with the education and training. A good basic start should have been done ten years ago, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. s.PEAKER .. (Simms): Further statements? The hon. Minister of Forests, Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to provide the hon. House with the following

summary of Crown Land applications received during the fiscal year April 1,1980 to March 31,1981. During the period 1 5,475 applications were registered which represents a 40 per cent increase over the previous year. This total was broken down into 38 per cent for cottages, 29 per cent for residences, 9 per cent under"squatters rights", a part of the act, 8 per cent for agriculture and 5 per cent for commercial purposes and 11 per cent for miscellaneous. Over the year the department approved 3,370 applications for survey and refused 2,346.

A total of 2,420 titles were issued which representsa 40 per cent increase over last year. 270 of these titles ,Mr. Speaker, were in the form of permits-to-occupy issued under government's recently approved remote cottage policy. In addition, the department responded to 63,000 inquiries and investigated lBO reported cases of unauthorized occupat·ion of Crown land. The latter resulted in 35 charges being laid to date.

As a result of improvements in Crown lands administration, I am pleased to advise that 15 per cent of applications now being accepted are receiving a final decision within one month and another 50 per cent are being considered within a six month period. 6768

June 16,1981 Tape No. 2514 ah-3 MR. POWER : In tenns of reven.ue , the department received a total o: 5334 ,6 07 .80 of which $212,797.61 represents revenue from applications submitted and titles issued over the past year. The balance reflects rental payments on outstanding leases. My colleagues may also be interested in kno~ing that for t~e ten year period ~om April 1,1971 to !-larch 31, 1981 my depar+...ment received a total of 35,893 applications for Crown land of which 31,054 have now been proc essed. Th~~k you, Mr.Spea~er. 6769

June 16, 1981 NR. SPEAKER (Simms): one minute. Tape No. 2515 SD - 1 The hon. member for Fogo has about MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on this side, I suppose, . we are happy to see any improvements that come about. The minister had now made his annual statement on what must be for most Newfoundlanders the biggest nightmare that they have to go through in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. TULK: Crown Lands Division of the minister's department and getting Crown land in this Province is a nightmare. The Department of Transportation is involved, the Department of Health, develOpment control and so on.

And,Mr. Speaker, there are serious problems in this Province for people in non-municipal areas who have to have Crown land for house construction. In the statement, Mr. Speaker, the minister pointed out that there were 63,000 inquiries and that he investigated some 180 cases of unauthorized occupation of Crown land. It might be a better statement for the minister in this House if he would tell the House where these unauthorized occupations were and what were the nature of the occupations that he prosecuted in court.

In the statement he also says that SO per cent of the applications being received are being considered within six months. The question is, how much above SO per cent and how long does the remainder take? He has given no answers to those type of questions. MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. ;.-!EMBERS : i'IR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: clue up? Order, please! The hon. member's time has expired. Already, Hr. StJeaker? By leave. No leave. Leave has not been granted. Mr. Speaker, could I take a second to 6770

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2515 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): No, I am sorry the hon. member's time has expired. I asked if there was leave, I understand there is no leave. MR. SPEAKER : MR. FLIGHT: Any further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry).It is with regard to the Chairman of Hydro, Mr. Vic Young's presentation to the Public Utilities Board yesterday and I will quote for the minister that Mr.

Young said, "that Newfoundland Eydro's credit rating is the lowest of any Crown corporation or any province in Canada". Now I find that difficult to understand, Mr. Speaker. Newfoundland Hydro is backed by this Province, Newfoundland Hydro's credit rating is tied to this Province, we stand behind every dollar they borrow, we stand behind their credit. So what Mr. Young is saying in effect,and maybe the minister would confirm it, is that this Province's credit rating is the lowest of any province in Canada. Does the minister want to comment on that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR.

BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the way the Liberals drove the Province into the ground for twenty-three years , we are still trying to get over it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: Windsor - Buchans. >lear, hear! Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ·Supplementary, the hon. member for MR. FLIGHT: You know, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Young also indicated what must ha ve caused most Newfoundlanders to shiver in their shoes, he indicated that we are going to be looking at an in excess of a 6Q per cent increase in electrical rates in the next five y ears.~s a matte r of fact, it is close 6 7 7 'l

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2515 SD - 3 M...R.. FLIGHT: to 80 if you use his figures. He said 50 per cent at the hearing, 55 per cent - 11 per cent per years. But if 6772

June 16th., 1981 Tape No. 2516 DW - l MR. G. FLIGHT' you look at tfue figures in the chart he gives where the present rate is $80 in 1985 it will be $139,it is closer to 80 per ~- cent. Now I want to ask the minister if he will confirm that the people of this Province are looking at in excess of a 50 per cent increase in hydro rates over the next five years, between now and 1985? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): and Energy. MR. L .. BARRY: The hon. Minister of Mines Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is trying to confuse the issue.

The statistics for the hydro increases for the past two years have been lower than the rate of inflation. What the member is referring to are the figures supplied by his friends, his Liberal friends in Ottawa,with respect to fuel escalation. And I might say it is about time that the member read the document that came out from his friend Mr. Lalonde several months ago , because it is right there in a chart predicting the increase in fuel prices over the next ten years, Mr. Speaker. So not just for five years.

The federal govern­ ment have laid out their predictions for what the increase and the price of fuel will be over the next ten years. MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, must not the minister be concerned ? I am quoting directly from the Chairman of Newfoundland Hydro, ~x. Victor Young. I am not quoting Ottawa or Mr. Lalonde. I am quoting Mr. Young, the man who supposedly advises him on hydro in this Province and hydro costs. And Mr.

Young says very clearly that electrical costs will rise by ll per cent per year until 1985 and that is 55 per cent, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 6773

J~~e 16th ., 1981 Tape No . 25H ow - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: So what I •,;ant to ask the minister is why that is? ~'i'e have Hinds Lake just come on Hydro, we have Upper Salmon under con struc tion anc we have Cat Arm - all the energy that i s going 'tO be generated in this Province until 1985 or l986 is hydro: The cheapest possible - the r e will be some increase in the cost of oil at Holyrood .

But why is it, Mr.Speaker, would the miP~ster tell us why the people o~ this Province are going to be looking at a 55 per cent increase in electrical rates when one considers and realizes that: all of t~e hydro generated in thi s Province until that time will be hydro not fuel, hydro! The only oil we are talking about is the increased consumption to Holy ­ rood . Wny 55 per cent? M..~ . SPEAKER (Sit"M\s): Mine s and Energy. MR. L. BARRV: The hon . Minister of Mr . Speaker, I really find it hard to comprehend that the member opposite who has been the energy critic now, r ~~ink , for a year or two years, ~tr .

Spe~~er, still does ~ot realize that HolY=ood is out there burning oil and that taere is close to 40 per cent or something over 4.0 per cent of the energy supply presently supplied by oil , Mr . Spea~er, not by hydro! By oil! And these figures that Mr . Young is supplyL~g are based U?On the oil ?reje ctions received 6774

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2517 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: from the mernber"s Liberal colleagues in Ottawa. Their energy prices, those same. people SO.r-t...E HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear , hear! MR. BARRY: - those same people who said that they would not let gasoline go up aightee.n cents a gallon SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: - and have driven it up many times that already, Mr. Speaker. Those same people who are making the consumer in Newfoundland pay for buying Petrofina where there is not a Petrofina service station in the Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIG'"rlT: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A final supplementary, tfl.e Mr. Young goes on to say, Mr.

Speaker, in his presentation to PUB, that it is critical, it is critical that we have an intertie in this Province with Labrador power by 1985/86, and that that intertie will cost $1.5 billion, and he further says that that is the reason, the reason he is asking for the 55 per cent increase _in electric rates over the next five years is to strengthen Hydro's credability and another reason he wants to strengthen it is so that he can look at borrowing the $1.5 billion. is that - ~R. MOORES: oil from Ottawa? MR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr.

Speaker, the indicatlon What has that got to do with - Hydro is going to saddle the people of this Province with a 55 per cent increase in electric rates in order to raise the money for an intertie with Labrador in 1986. And that is the issue. And are the people of Newfoundland, 6 7? 5

June 16, 1981 Tape No . 2517 NM 2. MH .. :niGHT : over the next fo:ur or five. years, going to be saddled ;.rith. the cost, as- envisioned by Hydro, to build ~~ intertie in this Provfnce from Labrador? MR . SPE.ll.KER (Simms ) : The h.on. 1-ti.nister of Mines and Energy. MR . BARRY : Ag ain, Mr.

Speaker, iZ I und ers~and correctly what the member LS saying, he is saying that we should not charge rates to affe9t the cost of service, tve should put Eydro in bankruptcy and some..l-tow th at is going to make i c bet1:er for the electrical consumer I<Tb.e.~ we nave. to build new generating facilitie s and ne1-1 tra!'.smissi ·on lines, that someho1., by ;:>utting Hydro L11.to bankruptcy thls J":s goi.."lg to improve che pos ition of the electrical consumer. • l\N EON . ~!EMBER: Right . MR . BARRY: ~r. Speaker, I do not bel~eve the people of Newfoundland accep t that. SO~~ HON . ~ERS : Oh. , oh!

MR. • BA..'l.RY : And if thd t is the policy of the Liberal Party, that is a pol~cy that they will fall on. AI,"T HON. MEMBER: bond market. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. STTRLING: HR. SPEl>la:R: Opposition. MR . STIRLING: Raise the money on the Oh, oh! A supplement~y, Mr. Speaker. Th e hon. Leader of ~~e Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary :or ;v-hat I should call the ;1inister of Distortion., but I will not. r •...rill call him the Minister of .:-lines and .::nergy (Mr. 3arry) , and 6776

June 16, 1981 Tape No . 2517 N?1 - 3 MR . STIRLING: you would not know that ch.e questions - he does not have to answer the questiort> but he cannot give such a distortion, ~k. Spea~er . The question r would like ~o ask the minister - now let us see what kind of a struggle you can give on thi.s one - \vhy is it that this gover~~ent has not allowed the Public Ut ilities Board to have the right co examine income from all sources connectec •t~ith Newfoundland Hydro, including CLFCo and includ.ing sales to commercial customers? Why is it 6 .,-7 I I J

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2518 EL - l MR. STIRLING: that this government has not allowed the Public Utilities Board to take all of these sources of income into consideration in setting the rates? MR. MOORES: one. SOME HON. MRMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : and Energy. MR. BARRY: Get up now and squirm on that Oh, oh! The hon. the Minister of Mines Mr. Speaker, first of all I must say I get terribly embarrassed whenever the Leader of the Opposition jumps up to try and bail out his energy critic. Why do you not let. the energy critic do his job? If the member opposite would let the energy critic - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: - if he would not continually under- mine him, the energy critic might develop a little confidence during Question Period. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: Oh, come on. Order, please! But everytL~e he knows that the Leader of the Opposition is going to jump up and cut the legs from underneath him. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. minister would provide an answer rather than debate. MR. FLIGHT: intellect. SOME HON. ~1EMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: This is supposed to be a man of Qh_,. oh! Order, please! Oh, oh! 6778

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2518 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. BARRY: He will get a chance if the Leader of the Opposition lets him, maybe tomorrow, to have another shot at one question before- MR. FLIGHT: (inaudible) . MR. SPEAKER : the Minister of Mines and This was the man who was going Order, please! If everybody is ready, the hon. Energy, with an answer. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Public Utilities Board has the jurisdiction to look at and to bring in re­ commendations to government on all matters relating to in­ creased cost to the consumer in Newfoundland. MR. STIRLING: M_~.

SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Do I understand the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry) now to say that they will give authority to the Public Utilities Board to consider all sources of income from Newfoundland Hydro and its affiliated and subsidiary companies, all of the things that we own in Newfoundland, in order to set that rate? Is that a now ann­ ounced change of policy? MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. The hon. the Minister of Mines MR. BARRY: ~1r. Speaker , I said nothing at all about an announced change of policy.

I said that right now, at the present time, today, without any change in pol­ icy the Public Utilities Board has the jurisdiction, not will get it, has the jurisdiction to look at all matters relating to anything relating to the cost of service to the electrical consumer in Newfoundland. 6779

June 16, 1981 N.R. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms } : Leader of th e Opposition. Tape No. 2518 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supp lementary, the hon . the EL - 3 !·1R . STIRLING : Mr . Speaker, the minister kno\v s ~~at this morning when my co lleague asked a question deal - L~g with CFLCo ~~d costs, th e board ruled that they had not been given that authority, that they were only to deal with the retail sales . They could not examine into the income of CFLCo and othe r related inc ome , income from the Iron Ore Company of c~~ada and that sort of thing.

The minister kno\.r s ~~at and that is '"'hY I am going to take hi s answer as a new piece of information be ca use we have some~ing like ten pieces of legi slation that we are told '.-Je are going to debate ~,at are not even here and he allowed the legislation to - ~- ~HALL: A point of order, .l-tr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, has been raised by the hon . th e Preside nt of the Council . MR. 1-'.ARS?.ALL : :1r. Speaker, this is the Question ?er~od. T~e hon . gentleman a speech. I am hesitant to in ­ terupt him because everytime he opens his mou1:..'1. he drive s :.1s 678D

June 16, 1981 MR. MARSHALL : in the next election - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MAR!?Jffi.LL: Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape 2519 EC - 1 into an overwhelming victory Oh, oh! - but the rules are the rules, Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, I believe, was entering into a little bit of debate pertaining to the answer he received. I would ask him to ask his supplementary question. ~~- STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I think when we get an interruption from the President of the Council (Mr.Marshall) it is to encourage long debate.

The question for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) - do I understand him now to say that the Public Utilities Board are wrong in their judgement or assessment of their mandate which is to look into all sources of income and that now the minister is telling us that they are wrong in that judgement? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is either not listening or he cannot hear well.

What I have said is that the Public Utilities Board has the jurisdiction to look into all maters relating to the cost of service to the electrical consumer in this Province. If they h~ve disallowed a question at the Public Utilities Board hearing, obviously they have concluded that that matter does not relate to the cost of service to the electrical consumer in Newfoundland. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. B_Z1_RRY: And members opposite, I mean, really, members opposite have been trounced three times 6 7 6 ·1

June 16, 1981 Tape 2519 EC - 2 MR. BARRY: in three elections now on that philosophy, Mr. Speaker, that the member is holding up there, - --- that philosophy that they are asking the people of this Province to bury their heads in the sand and ignore the fact that just as the cost of everything else is going up, the cost of electricity is going up and the cost of oil is going up more dramatically than anything else because we do not have our own sources of oil. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, in three elections the people of this Province voted for a government that will solve our problems by getting our own supplies of oil, by getting electricity based on hydro, and if hon. members opposite want to go into another election on the same old philosophy they are going to get wiped out once more. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: This question is related to the cost of electricity.

The hon. gentleman just raised the matter of the government having to buy the oil to generate the electricity at Holyrood at the thermo generating plant.

Now, in connection with that,would the han. gentleman tell the House if it is correct that when Newfoundland Hydro ordered its Bunker C for the thermo generating plant last year, in view of the mild winter that we had where it was not possible to use all the Bunker C, there was no place to store it, an& in order to take delivery of the Bunker C that a generator had to be shut down in Bay d'Espoir?­ which drove up the cost of electricity in this Province the government's short-sightedness in having been forced to take delivery of the Bunker C and no storage facilities to look after it. 67i32

June 16, 1981, Tape 2520, Page 1 -- apo MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I will look into the matter raised oy the SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!' MR. BARRY: - by the. han. member - MR. DINN: The real leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: - yes, the real leader over there - MR. MORGAN: Tliat is right, the real leader. MR. BARRY: But, Mr.

Speaker, I will tell the member and mernners opposite that the contract which Newfoundland Hydro had for the purchase of that Bunker C saved the electrical consumer millions and millions and millions of dollars, as everybody-who saw the reduction in their fuel escalation charges in the Province knows. They know that Newfoundland Hydro saved them money on that Bunker C contract. That is the bottom line.

Whether they had to store it in milk. bottles, in P1epsi bottles, in beer bottles because they did not have enough storage, they saved, and I do not remember the figure, out it was between $12 million and $20 million, Mr. Speaker, a tremendous- amount of money that was saved the electrical consumer in this Province by that contract. MR. NEARY: A s.upplernentary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. the. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the saving that was shown on the. consumers' electric bills was the result of 67B3

June.l6, J.98J., Tape252Q, Page.2 ~ap5 .MR. NEARY: Newfoundland L£ght and Power overcharging the. cons:umers . And that is why the saving was put on, it nad notning to do with the cost of - MR. BARRY: rt was the fuel escalation charges. MR. NEARY : No, it had nothing to do with the cost of Bunker C. But r want to ask the hon. gentleman agai n, in connection witn this contract - I presume it is a take or pay contract that Newfoundland Kydro has with an oil company to deliver Bunker C at Holyrood. Now, in the event that the storage tanks - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, olJ,.! MR.

NEARY: rn the event that the storage facilities cannot accommodate the Bunker C when it is supposed to be delivered, what are the alternatives? Because oy allowing the thermal generating plant to operate more time than it usually operates, it is driving up the cost of electricity - if you shut down the generator at Ba y d'Espoir. So could the. hon. gentleman tell us is it a take or pay contract? What happens when the time comes to deliver the Bunker C and there are no storage facilities for it? Does the . government have a plan, that they can sell the Bunker C? Do they have to take deliv~ of it?

Are there penalties involved? Wliat is the situation? Because . t~s is a pretty critical matter. And I understand that last Winter, because we had a mild Winter and the - MR. SPEAKER lSi~ .s l : Order, please: · The hon. mem5er•s question is very lengtfi¥. There are other members who wish to ask questions so perhaps he can get to the. point. MR. NEARY: I understand, but in order to get the message across, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: I realize that. MR. NEARY: But I will ask the hon. 67B4

June lfi, 198~, Tape 252Q, Page- 3 ~ aph MR. NEARY: gantlernan what happens in the ~ase where there are no storage facilities to take care of the Bunker c when it is being de-livered, what happens then, do you shut down a generator at Ray d ''ESpoi:r? 6785

June 16, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Sinuns) MR. BARRY: Tape No. 2521 so - 1 The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland Hydro has bought oil before, they buy it to co-ordinate with their ability to store. The member opposite, I think he may be a bit confused. if he was referring to a shut-down at Bay d'Espoir last year- it seems to me that at one point in the year the water in the reservoir was getting dangerously low - as a matter of fact, there had been - MR. NEARY: MR. BA."-RY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: No, that was not last year. Yes, last year. Oh, oh. Last year. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, for the three years prior, every year the water was getting lower and lower and it was looking, Mr. Speaker, as though there was going to be a serious situation develop because of God's lack of moisture. However, Mr. Speaker, I am happy to inform members that as of today the Bay d'Espoir reservoir is full and there is more water there then there has ever been. Hinds Lake is going full tilt, it was designed to run seven hours a day and it is running about 20 per cent over capacity, twenty-four hours a day. Mr.

Speaker, there is lots of water in the reseroir and the good Lord has seen to it that we will have sufficient hydro to meet our current installed generating capacity. But what the hon. member is referring to is some sort of hypothetical scenario, Mr. Speaker, that - MR. NEARY: is a fact. MR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: to get the information? No,it is not hypothetical, it - I am sure . will never develop. Well, will the hon. gentleman agree MR. SPEAKER: ·rh .e hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry). With regard to 6766

.. ·-. --.:.....:==..:.. ........... :_.-_ June 15, 1981 Tape No . 2521 so - 2 ~~- HI SC OCK : the price of oi l that Hy dro is paying that the federal government, the international pri ce is $39 a barr el and Hydro is buying it from the federal gov er nment by way of subsidi za tion for $20 . tHth rega-7d to a."lother poim: t:ha1: he just said of Newfoundland Light and Power, with regard to the Newfoundland Light and Power they die not consume as much oil as last year because in actual fact, Mr.

Speaker, and to che questio n, in actual fact they consumed less bec ause they had more of their own generating plant capab~li1:y . SOME HON. MEMBERS: )ffi . SPE.liJ<ER (Simms): ~L~ . SISCOCK : Oh , oh . Order, please! My question to the Minister of Mines and Energy (M r. :larry) is that at these hearings ...ne....re I have ?resented briefs on beha~= of the Party and my district, chat ~ewfoundland and Labr ador Hydro said that they will not connect any part of the Labrador Coast with regard to hydro of t~e Upp er Churchill, Muskr at Fall s or the Lower Chur chill .

I •;~an t to know if this is a political decision - and these are che original ?eople of Labra dor- 1-1e woul d no t be bri nging all this power down co the Island to in1: erconnect; 6767

---.... June 16,1981 Tape No. 2522 ah-1 MR. HISCOCK: my question is that Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro does not have the powerso is this the official position of this government that they are also supporting it that it is economically unfeasible to give the people on the coast of Labrador any form of power from hydro in Labrador? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Energy. MR. BARRY: The han. Minister of Mines and Mr. Speaker, first of all I would like to correct the member opposite, ·the new energy critic opposite. Hydro does not buy oil from the federal government. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, the member is referring to the fact .. that for technical _reasons it would be extremely costly, Mr. Speaker, to bring transmission lines to the small communities· I guess the averag ·e population on the coast is-what? 5,000 spread in how many communities? Fifteen communities, Mr. Speaker. You know, the facts really, I think,there speak for themselves. However,the member is­ and I appreciate the intent behind his question;· it is sincere pointing out that the people in these coastal communities do not want to look at paying higher rates.

I think if they were getting their electricity at the same rate it would not matter whether it was being from diesel generators or from hydro, Mr. Speaker, but the real concern that they have right now is that above 500 kilowatt hours the higher rate kicks in, Mr. Speaker, as a conservation measure to discourage electric heat and so forth. Now,Mr.

Speaker, I have stated before-and I made this statement first in Labrador- that ·as we see more and more of our isolated communities that are now on diesel interconnected to the hydr? grid 1and as we see the remaining few that are isolated being fewer and fewer in number ,I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we will get to a point in time-and it is not now and I doubt if it will be next year or the year after- 67BB

--- ·---- -- -- ·---- -~--- ··:-..... ~ .... ..-.- June 16,1981 Tape No. 2522 ah-2 MR. BARRY : but I see, Mr. Speaker, where this Province,granted,if it is given and if it has the support :rom members opposite of getting control of its resources, of getting control of oil so we wi1~ have the revenue from oil, of getting fair treatment with other Canadians so that we will be able to develop Gull Island and Muskrat Falls to export power across Quebec as surplus to our needs , ! believe that this government, this Province is going 6789

--- ·-- .. -~--------- June 16th., ·1981 Tape No. 2523 MR. L. BARRY: to be in a sufficiently wealthy position to be able to ensure that the few communities who will then be still isolated and will probably always be isolated from the hydro grid will be able to see that they get their power at exactly the same rate as communities all around the Province. That would be my objective, that would this govern­ ment's objective, Mr. Speaker, but it takes time, it takes money but this is what we are working towards. MR. E. HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. DW - l MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): member for Eagle River; A supplementary, the hon. MR. E. HISCOCK: There is no question about it, Mr. Speaker,that this is a Tory administra- tion operating out of St. John's - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. E. HISCOCK: - and, Mr. Speaker, operated by ministers out of St. John's who have no regard whatso­ ever for Labrador, do not mind giving extra money for the synchrolift or the crosstown arterial road or number of things. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! X Is the hon. member going to ask his question? MR. E. HISCOCK: But, Mr. Speaker, I think it is about time - MR. W.

MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the hon. President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman - AN HON. MEMBER: St. John's Government. MR. W. HISCOCK: He does even know where Labrador is. 6780

June 16th., 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): please? Council. Tape No. 2523 OW - 2 Would the hon. member mind 1 The hon. President of the MR. W. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is making a speech, Mr. Speaker. This is the Question Period and he is into a supplementary question. SOME HON . MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. MARSHALL: Oh, oh! Order, please~ Order, please! He is into a supplementary question. He should practice asking questions as succinctly as I hear they do when they ask the Leader of the Opposi­ tion (Mr. Stirling) in caucus. MR.

SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order,the hon. member should ask his supplementary as some of his colleagues are waiting to be recognized. MR. E . HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the supplementary - and as I said more speeches in this House should be given on Labrador and how this administra­ tion is treating it- but with regard to the supplementary Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro has no intention of con­ necting up two places in Southern Labrador,Pinsent's Arm and Northern Bay;because,again,of the economic costs it would have to be a political decision.

Does this administration have any intentions of giving people who have been living there since the eighteenth century, long before we ever had the decision of the Privy Council and long before we were ever part of the country of Canada, does the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) have any intention of giving them hydro instead of having ~dividual generators? 6781

June 16th ., 1981 M..~ • SPEAKER (Simms ) : and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Tape No . 2523 m-t- 3 The hon . ~ni ster of ~es Mr. Speaker, at the present tim e the taxpayer in this Province is subs idizing the communities which are on diesel power to the tune of more than $20 millio n - ~· C. POWER: A year . MR . L. BARRY: - mo re chan $20 million a year , Mr. Speaker, subs idy is going into the smaller communit ies because we are compassioniate on this side of che aou se, because we do feel concerned - SOME ttON . MEMBERS: ~.

L. 3ARR Y: Hear, hear! - because we do feel conceFned for those people living in the smal l comm unit ies which most of u.s here cam e f::om , Mr. Spea ker. SOME i10N • ~MBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Ord er, plea se! MR. L . SARRY : Mr. Sp eaker , wherever members on this side of the aou se now represen~ clleir roo ts are in the smal lest communities of this Pro vince-except for the hon. membe r for Waterford - ~enmounc (:.!r. Ottenheimer ). 6732

- - - ~ - -· -- __________ ,.:_...__:..-~: June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2524 EL - 1 MR. BARRY: And, Mr. Speaker, more than $20 million. Now the only thing I conclude that the rrenber oor:;osite is saying is that the cost to the other electrical consumers in the Province should be increased substantially in order to pay a higher subsidy to the people in these communities. SOME.HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Okay, he is saying no. You are saying yes, he is saying no.When you get your act toge~~er, let me know, will you? SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEA-~ER (Simms) : member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: Hear, hear! A ftnal supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. With regard to the subsidy, or what- ever, if we do not subsidize Labrador, then as I said,-I..abrador (inaudible). PREMIER PECKFORD: They are subsidized now. MR. HISCOCK: My question, Mr. Speaker, is if the Federal Government is subsidizing the thermo plant at Holyrood eighteen dollars on the ba~rel, if that had to go up now to the world prices or the 75 per cent, as the minister wants it, then the rates in the Island part and St. John's would be now doubled. And that is a reality. So it is subsidized by 20 per cent. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! That is not a question. Does the hon. member have a question? MR. HISCOC!<: The question that I want to ask the Minis .ter of Mines and Energy (L. Barry): Does he have any longterm plans either to Uniform the rates or to take the people off our diesel ?Ower in Labrador? Because Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro does not have any longterm plans- 67d3

June 16, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Energy. MR. BARRY: Tape No. 2524 EL - 2 The hon. the Minister of Mines and Alright, Mr. Speaker, first things first. The people in this Province elected a government which said to them, in order for us to do certain things in this Province we need to have money. In order to get money we have to get control of our resources, Mr. Speaker.

When we see the development of our resources with control in this Province, when we see members opposite being prepared to get up and go against their political colleagues in Ottawa,which they are not now,- they do not now have the courage to do. You do not have the courage to critize your Federal Liberal colleagues. You support their petition to take our oil resources, to block transmission of electricity through Quebec. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! t-1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: This government, Mr. Speaker, supp- orts the notion of running - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: ration. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! Order, please! - a fiscally responsible administ- Oh, oh! Order, please! If the hon. members do not wish to carry on, that is fine. But if they wish to carry on, I ask them to please restrain themselves. The hon. the Minister. MR. BARRY: Mr.Speaker, in three elections the people of this Province have shown that they are willing to support a government which tells it like it is, which says that we do have plans for this Province but we are going to· 6734

• JUne 16, 1981 Tape NO . 2524 EL - 3 MR. BARRY : move into them in a careful well ­ planned way : We are going to dev elop our resources, we are obtain revenue , and •,;e are going to provide services - and that is the •1ay it is done, Mr . Speaker . SOME oON. ME.r-1BERS : MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Si.:nms) : Mountains. Hear, hear ! Mr . Speaker. The hon . ~~e member for Torngat 6795

June 16, 1981 Tape 2525 EC - 1 .MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. In light of the fact that the minis~er's department curtailed all funding to the Indian Band Council in Davis Inlet some weeks ago, could the minister advise why this funding has been cut off? And seeing my time is short, could he advise, would the Indian Band Council of Davis Inlet be treated the same way as the other six communities, the designed communities in Northern Labrador? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR.

GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in the House last week, the funding for the community of Davis Inlet had not been curtailed. There are quite a number of dollars left in the accounts in the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area. As soon as the invoices are received they will be paid. Davis Inlet is treated the same as every other community under the old agreement and under the new agreement which will be signed some time or other, anyhow, when Mr. Munro is ready. Davis Inlet will be treated quite the same.

As a matter of fact, just as one example of how Davis Inlet is treated, the funding for the community tripled over the year before last year. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: expired. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Hear, hear! The time for Oral Questions has Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a statement that I released this morning to the press: Response of the Government of Newfoundland and 6786

June 16, 1981 Tape 2525 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Labrador to the Recommendations of the Economic Council of Canada Study - Newfoundland from Dependency to Self-Reliance. Copies will be provided to all hon. members. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: I did not make the statement in the House, Mr. Speaker, because I thought that han. members opposite might know it to be out of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order, please! MR. STIRLING: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

STIRLING: What was it we just had from the Premier? MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: PREMIER PECKFORD: Tabling of reports - tabling a report. Tabling a report? I can answer the Leader of the Opposition. It is the government's detailed response to the Economic Council of Canada's report that was released last Fall to which we made a preliminary response, and now we are making a detailed response.

I saved the Leader of the Opposition the agony and the burden and the embarrassment of reading it here in the House today but released it to the media this morning in light of the Opposition's response to my statement on Friday past. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. A further point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Was that a Ministerial Statement? What kind of a report? It appeared to me that that was a 6737

June 16, 1981 Ta pe 2525 EC - 3 MR. STIRLING: Ministerial Statement, Mr. Spe9-ker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! I think the practices of this House allow for the tabling of such documents . We have certainly had it done before many time .s . MR. STIRLING: Without debate? MR. SPElU(:ER: MR. HODI:1ER: PRESENTING PETITIONS T~e hon. the member for Port au Port. Mr . Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on beh~J.f of twenty-five resident .s of the community of Kippens.

The petition states: "We, the undersigned, who are hous~olders in t:tle :town of Kippens, petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to provide the commun~ty of Kippens with the second phase of the water system for our town. Areas of Kippens have an inadequate water suppl~ 6798

June 16,1981 Tape No. 2526 ah-1 MR. HODDER: "and therefore a number of home-owners have to make a decision as to whether or not they should drill wells and install sewerage tanks or wait until the second phase is implemented. We also understand that an environmental study is being undertaken by the Department of the Environment to see if a· sewerage system will be needed for parts of Kippins. This has put many residents in a situation whereby they do not know whether sewerage services will be provided or whether it will be both water and sewerage services.

We therefore further petition the government to complete the environmental study as quickly as possible so that the new home-owners and older residents of Kl.ppens can proceed with future planning." Now, Mr. Speaker, four years ago the first phase of the water system for Kippens was announced­ At that time there had been an outcry in the community because residents of the community had contaminated water and the community was starting to grow and you had houses - there was not particularly good town planning there at that particular time.

I think at that time the town was negotiating a town plan but had not received one. Now, Mr. Speaker, the first phase of the water system after it being announced was not completed until the year before last, and last year the residents of the community asked for the second phase and it was denied for a number of reasons: one , that there was a lot of development ·going on in Kippens.

The rate of development had accelerated quite a bit because the government had built lots in Stephenville, or the area known as Area 13 which has been there for some four or five years and not one lot has been taken because of the expense,but at that particular time people were starting to move into Kippens rather than into Area 13, and the 6739

- _. _____ _ June 16,1981 Tape No. 2526 a.ll-2 MR. HODDER: Department of Municipal ~~fairs disal~owed it last year although , I thi~~, for improper reasons. They felt that people were moving into 1<ippens and buying unserviced land and the government did not want to put water and sewer through this land and inc rease the value to those people that were moving in . But that was an incorrect assumption because, Mr. Speaker, the area which the second phase would cover is an area in which a lot of the old er residents of the community resided and whe re the water was really needed in the first plac e.

In other words, the people ~vho complained about the water in the first instance would have gotten thei r water in the second phase but they have not received it yet . Now, Mr. Speaker, this year the people of Kipp a~s were expecting the second phase to their water system again. It is the out skirts of Stephenvil le. If you drive through it you cannot tell one =rom the other. It has ~e same type of developmental problems and it needs a water and sewer syst~~- Now the government has now said that there will be 6300

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2527 SD - l MR. HODDER: an environmental study. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is beyond me to understand why an environmental study has been decided upon at this particular point in time when the government knew these problems existed two years ago. But, Mr. Speaker, we now have a lot of people who have moved into Kippens.

These are twenty-five householders -that is twenty-five houses-who are in a position at the present time they do not know whether they should drill a well, they do not know if they are going to get water or not; if they do drill a well they do now know whether they should put in a septic tank or whether they need septic services or not because the environment study may say they need water and sewer or they need only one. So, Mr. Speaker, they are really in a - they have h~mes built tnere, they really have a problem and they are sort of sitting there wondering what is going to be in store for them.

And they have asked the minister if she would make sure that this water and sewer environmental study is carried out quickly because otherwise some people cannot move into their homes and some of them may have to spend money which will be unnecessary if water and sewer is designated for their particular areas. Not only that, Mr· Speaker, but there is a potential health problem in the other parts of Kippens because you have a lot of development, a lot of houses close together, and the people are drinking from shallow wells. And, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the minister ) to make sure to look carefully at the town of Kippens. It is- one of the largest growth areas in the. Province, it is a dorm~tory town for the community of Stephenville; many people who work in Stephenville and moving out to Kippens and the situation is becoming more intense all the time. They want this environmental study done quickly and they would like to see funding,and I understand the minister says that funding has not been totally ruled out but is pending on the environmental study. So they would like to have the 6 t.l iJ •j

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2527 SD - 2 MR. HODDER: environmental study as soon as they can. So, Mr. Speaker, I would ask that the petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MRS • NEWHOOK: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Speaker, our department certainly will be responding to the petition from the hon. member.

I am quite sure he is aware that any phases of water now have to be approved by the Department of Environment, they have to ensure that when we put in a distribution system for water that they have to make sure that there are not going to be any sewer problems as well. And we have checked this with the Department of Environment and Environment are saying that there has to be a study in Kippens to determine just what the environmental problem will be. This study is now underway and I shall check and just see how far we are advanced with it and we will respond to your petition. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER: Order 3. Concurrence debate on the repor~ of the Government Services Committee. We have one hour seven minutes remaining in this debate. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, first I want to deal with the statement made by the Mini .ster of Municipal Affairs (Mrs . Newhook ) y esterda y on ·water and sewer projects throughout the Province.

And I want to tell the minister how disappointed the residents of Burnt Islands are that the minister did not see fit to fulfil l a promise that was made by the Premier when he was campai gning prior to the 1979 Provincial General Election and that was to install water and 6802

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2528 EL - l MR. NEARY: sewerage in the community of Burnt Island in the electoral district of LaPoile. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me refresh hon. manbers' manories ?.:3 far as that commitment is concerned. In 1979 on June 8th, during a Provincial general election,the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing, who was the hon. Neil Windsor at that time, wired the mayor of Burnt Island and told the mayor that he would see, I am quoting directly frcm the telegram "I am pleasea to advise that funding in the amount of $300,000 has been approved for you water system projects.

The department wil_l be contacting you at a later date advising of further details concerning this project. Neil Windsor, Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing." And · on the same date, Mr. Speaker, a telex was dispatched from the Premier's office.and just listen to what this one says, Mr.Speaker. It says, "This telex is to confirm an under­ standing given by Mr. Cabot Martin on behalf of myself to the effect that $350,000 will be included in this year's Budget to complete the water system for your community. This commitment 'i s being given in recognition of the needs of the people of Burnt Island.

You are quite at liberty to make the contents of this message public." Well, now, Mr. Speaker, in one telegram, in the minister's telegram it was $300,000 and in the Premier's telegram it was $350,000. Now, perhaps the Minister of Municipal Affairs can tell us what the figure really is. Is it $300,000 or is it $350,000?

Now, in the list of announcements made by the minister yesterday there was $20,000 listed as a capital grant for water and sewerage in the community of Burnt Island, $20,000 1 and the minister's department wired the town council in Burnt Island to tell the town that 'this $20,000 was to take care of an over-run 6803

".June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2528 EL - 2 M..~ . NEARY: on the origin al contract . And ye~ , Mr . Speaker, the town council in Burnt Island, and I disc uss ed this with the mayo r this morning, ha s no knowledge of an overrun. Anc yet the ~inister has listed $20,000 to take care of an overrun,which means that the re will be no work done this year on the second phase of th e water and sewerage that was promised by the ?remier in '79 in the community of Burnt Island . It is shameful, ~tr . Speaker, ab ­ solutely shameful . Burnt Island, as hon . members know,is a community ~~at ha s no drinking water .

The :irst phase was started la st year that will cost in ch e vicinity of S300, 000 and th e people •.vere promised that this year phase two would comm ence . As a matter of fa ct, Mr . Speaker, the people picketed las t year and the people picke~ed the first phase again this year,and they picketed objecting to allowing the first phase of •Nater and sew erage to be completed until they had a commitm ent from the minister ~a~ phase cwo would go ahead this year .

And as a result of c~a~ picketing, three ladies •.vere hauled into cou .rt by the Rw'1P and they were put on a suspended sen tence ,fighting for th eir righ~s. fighting for a promise that tb e Premier had made . 6uu4

-- --- .. ------- --- June l6, l98l. Tape 2529, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEAR~: Now, Mr. Speaker, I would suspect that as a result of the . government going back on its promise, as a result of double-crossing the people in Burnt Island, that there is- likely to be further pi.cketing. The people were led to beli.eve ., Mr. Speaker, by the Premier and by the former mi.nister and by this minister, that phase two of that water and sewerage would start this year. And they are extremely di.sappointed and are outraged at how blatantly the. list was drawn up along partisan political lines.

It is absolutely disgraceful and outrageous, Mr. Speaker. All you have to do is take the list and go over it item by item. They threw in the odd one _ they threw in the odd little project to make it look like it was non­ political. MR. CALLAN: Norman r s Cove. MR. NEARY: Oh, the odd little one, but go down over the list and take a look at it, Mr. Speaker, and you will find out that the list was· drawn up along poli.tical lines, something tl'iey used to accuse Joey of doing. This crowd -Mr.

Clean, who was going to run a clean and honest government, who was going to run a government of integrity, a government of the people,by the people and for the people, would not dare dirty his hands like Joey did in drawDlg up lists of road work. And I might say, in connection with the road work programme, there is $~9 milli.on of which $~2 mlllion was spent last year. They have not told us that. Now, I am talking about the . water and sewerage as it relates to Burnt Island. It is an absolute disgrace, Mr. Speaker.

The.minister should hang her head in shame for double- crossing the people in that community that comprises primary producers in this Province, and not put everything in St, John's, inside the overpass. These people deserve Bous

June 16, 19.81, Tape. 2529., Page. 2 -apb MR. NEARY: oe.tter f they are the primary producers in this Province, tliey work in the fish. plants and tne.y are. fishermen and they .fish. year ­ round . They are. not sp0rts fisfierl'llen like. you would find in most c0mmun.lties in Newfoundland, they. fisfi.. year- round down tb.e .re . They are nard-working people, Mr . Speaker, and tfley deserve. better treatment from the minister and from tii.i.s government . 1\N HON. MEMBER: They gener :ate new do.llars. MR. NEARY : Tfie.y generate new dollars in t.hi..s Province . The¥ are the prilnary producers . They keep St .

John's going and nalf the other placas in Newfoundland . They k.e.ep ner afloat and yet a large chunk of this money goes in and ar ound St . John • s . And what do tliey get? The. people of Burnt Island, the primary producers, the. rural parts of tnis Province get a kick in the teeth. from this government. And thls is the crowd that went around t.his Pro'?'ince in two or three elections, talking about what they were going to de for rural New.foundland. Mr . Speaker, 'rural" Newfoundland, they do not even 1<.."10\v what the word means . Tiley know nothing about rural Newfoundland, t!iey have. ci.ty vi.sion, St .

John ' s vi.sion . They 6B iJ 6

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2530 NM ~ 1 MR. NEARY: cannot see beyond the over~ pass, Mr. Speaker. And I will tell you this 1 that the people of Burnt Island are pretty mad, they are pretty sore about this. MR. TULK: And so they should. MR. NEARY: And so they should, Mr. Speaker. They should be sore about it. Because they have been double~crossed, they have been let down by th£s government. MR. TULK: They were promised it by Frank Moores first. MR. NEARY: · And I just read the telegram where the promise was made by none other than the Premier of this Province.

And I will read it again just in case hon. members do not understand what I am saying. "This Telex is to confirm an understanding given by Mr. Cabot Martin ~ AN HON. MEMBER: Who? MR. NEARY: ~ on behalf of myself, to the effect that $350,000 will be included in this year's budget to complete the water system for your community. This commitment is being given in recognition of the needs of the people of Burnt Island ." Recognition of the needs of the people of Burnt Island. Mr. Speaker, the federal government put the water supply down there.

The federal government paid the cost of putting the reservoir there, of putting the tank there to act as a reservoir for the water. The federal government put the water supply there and this crowd cann.ot even. see that it is put into the homes. MR. TULK: They cannot do anyth£ng. 6007

•l :J -- - --- .:...____. ___ _ June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2530 PK- 2 MR. NE,ARY: And, Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister may be penny-wise and pound-foolish in this matter,because now 50 per cent of the community will not have water and sewerage. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: They should be ashamed of themselves. And the hon. minister will not now be able to force the property tax on the community of Burnt Island. MR. BARRY: MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: 71 per cent. He will try though. Pardon? 71 per cent of the towns - Seventy-one per cent are communities and towns represented by the Tories.

There are no priorities taken i~to consideration, straight political decisions. "1R. WARREN: The dollars are about 90 per cent. MR. NEARY: The dollar so my- the expert in mathematics down here tells me that dollar: wise 1 it is 90 per cent. SOME HON. MEt.ffiERS : Oh, oh: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please: MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Spea~er, before I take my seat I will have to say again the people are disappointed. They feel that they have been let down and doubled-crossed by this government. And the minister will hear more about this, Mr. Speaker, in the future. ML~. SPEAKER (Butt) and Manpower. MR. DINN: The hon.

Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a few minutes to reply to the hon.-- unfortunately he is not here -member for Bellevue lMr. Callan) who got up and talked about the number of teachers in this Province who are disqruntled and disappointed and upset - MR. THOMS: You want to believe it. 6808

--- _r....,____,~- _. __ _ Ju ne 16, 1981 Ta pe No. 2530 PK - 3 MR. DINN: - and so on with the gave.J;"mnent. What I would like to do, Mr. Speaker, i.s just reflect for a li.ttle while on how the negotiations took place previ.ously versus how the negotiatioi).s take place now. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) government. MR. DINN: Right now the teachers, of course, have collective bargaining, they have all of the rights that any worker in this Province has and, of course, they go through the normal process. And in the latest negotiations, of course, we all know that the teachers went through the normal process.

They requested a conciliation board, they got a conciliation -board, they went through the whole process and eventually signed a collective agreement. Now,I did not think it was fair that we should leave on the record the fact that we as a government provided collective bargaining for teachers and MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I think, we need a quorum call. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) Call in the members. 60u9

June 16, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : and Manpower. Tape 2531 Count the members. We have a quorum. EC - 1 The hon. the Minister of Labour MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, you know, it is another childish display today, I guess. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, members on this side of the House were meeting in Committee with members on the opposite side of the House so that they could clear up and arrange their meetings further on down the road. And, Mr. Speaker, I guess what we will have to do is cancel those kinds of meetings. But the fact of the matter is, Mr.

Speaker, what we were talking about was in answer to the hon. the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) when he talked about collective bargaining and the fact that the teachers were upset. The teachers at this point in time went through the collective bargaining process, every process that is available to any worker in this Province. And, Mr. Speaker, in contrast I wanted to point out the contrast to what we had by the former Liberal administration when they were in power. We will just go back to 1970. Let us see what happened in that process. What happened was, Mr.

Speaker, the teachers requested collective bargaining and were not allowed collective bargaining in this process. What they would do was the NTA would get together and they would select a committee who would go in and talk to three ministers. The three ministers appointed in 1970 were the Minister of Education, the Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Minister of Finance. And they sat down around the table. They had no collective bargaining whatsoever, were not allowed. They were driven 6 B 1 0

June 16, 1981 Tape 2531 EC - 2 MR. DINN: into the ground basically. The teachers carne in and made a request as to what they would like in their salaries for the next three years and the government said, 'Tough bananas: You will get this.' So, Mr: Speaker, the teachers did not like that and they went on strike. The strike was kind of a rotating strike. They went out here in St. John's and they went out in Gander, Grand Falls, Corner Brook and so on, and, Mr. Speaker, they had no collective bargaining rights.

So what happened then when they went into that rotating strike position? wnat happened was the government called them up and they said, 'Go back to the bargaining table. Come on in - send your committee in to us and we will bargain in good faith, we will bargain collectively.' So they called off the strike, they went in to sit down and they got exactly what the government offered them in the first place, just exactly what the government offered them in the first place. That was what they had. That was their collective bargaining rights in those days, Mr. Speaker.

And I did not think that I should leave it on the record that the hon. the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) should get up in this House and criticize what happened in the past negotiations, because everything that was capable of happening in collective bargaining was given to the teachers in collective bargaining in the last negotiations, Mr. Speaker. They went through the process with the conciliation board, conciliation officers and so on. Now, Mr. Speaker, yesterday when I was interrupted by childish displays - MR. NEARY: MR.

DINN: l'l"ould the hon. member (inaudible) . - by the hon. member, who is interrupting again now and breaking the rules of the House 6 81 'l

.zi : • June 16, 1981 Tape 2531 EC - 3 MR. DINN : Yesterday, Mr . Speaker, I was interrupted by the hon. member who is interrupting again today, who does not sea~ to care,who tries to cloud issues, who tries to disrupt this House, Mr . Speaker - MR. NEARY: Who gave the NTA checkoff? MR. DINN : w'ho gave the NTA checkoff? Yes, we will collect some dues for you . They did not have collective bar gaining .

They sat down with three ministers who were sent out by the little dictator 1-1ho said, 'Give them that and do not give them anything else .' That is what happened in 1970 and that is what happened back to 1949 and beyond, M.r. Speaker . That is what happened , they gave chem nothing . Three ministers sat down with a position . They said, 'Here is what you are getting, nothing else.' The NTA got a little militant at that point L'1 time, the hon . member may remember . He wa s busy at that poin t in time, ~!r . Speaker, in 1970 , with social. welfare on Bell Island. SOME HON . MEMBERS: ~1R .

DINN: Hear, hear! ae was too busy in 1970 with a few little things that were rec or ded in ~~e Mifflin report. The hon . member should ke ep quiet . He is apt to get: a little burnt if he keeps interrupting . The hon. member is not sa 12

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2532 · MR. DINN: not going to stand back for the hon. member for LaPoile (S.Neary). He is not going to- MR. ·sPEAKER (Butt): Ordeli"~ please! EL,- 1 MR. DINN: - take the han. member for Pleas- antville(J. Dinn) on his back. MR. NEARY: I was not (inaudible) the telephone company (inaudible) . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DINN: And, Mr. Speaker, there is the hon. member making another accusation, another accusation across the House. He had the Andy Davidson affidavit placed on the table of the House - AN HON. MEMBER: He is not deny ing it. MR.

DINN: Yes, I deny it in front of every- body and for all the world to hear, I deny what the hon. member is saying. Yes, Mr. Speaker, deny. And the hon. mem­ ber comes into this House, puts affidavits on the table from guys who are not believable, not believable and that is what Judge Mahoney said, not believable and he puts it on the table of this House as truth, as the truth, Mr. Speaker, and destroys reputations. That is what he is good at. That is what the hon. member thrives on. That is what his forte is, Mr. Speaker, but I am not going to lower myself to that level of debate.

The hon. member tries to take this House on his back and he tried yesterday and did not succeed and he is trying again today by his continuous interruptions. Now, Mr.Speaker, that should settle the teachers' thing. The fact of the ma~ter is that the teachers have all the collective bargaining rightS that any worker in this Province has. MR. NEARY: Nho gave them the checkoff? 6 s "1 3

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2532 EL - 2 MR. DINN: Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member got up yesterday and said,'the bottom is falling out of the economy.' Well, Mr. Speaker, he is the only expert in the field that is saying that. No other expert, no other ec- onomist, no other economic expert in the field is saying that ... · the bottom is falling out of the Newfoundland economy. What are they saying? They are saying that we had the highest employment growth rate of any Province in Canada last year and by the looks of it,we will have the highest employment growth rate of any province this year, Mr. Sp~aker.

The economic growth rate - MR. FLIGHT: And the highest unemployment (Inaudible). MR. DINN: - .projected by economists, Mr. Speaker, projected by economists. They are saying that our economic growth rate is going to go from 3 to 3.5 this year and the - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. DINN: - Federal Canadian Government is zero, flat - MR. SPEAKER: Order! ~1R. NEARY: Tell us about the unemployment (inaudible) . MR. MARSHli-LL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, the bon. gentleman is entitled to his time speaking. He does not have to speak,to shout over the bon. or the member for LaPoile(S. Neary). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I ask the bon. members to my right to restrain themselves. The han. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (J. Dinn) has three minutes remaining. 6 8 ·1 4

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 25 32 EL - 3 MR. DINN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have three minutes left, Mr. Speaker? Now, Mr. Speaker, the employment is growing in this Province. The year oefore last at an average of 9,000 for that year over the· previous year, last year it was 9,500 and the han. members opposite will be disappointed to hear that for the first five months of·this year the average growth over the same month last year is 9,800. M~. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. DINN: And Mr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: How many young men (inaudible}. Order, please!

Growing at a phenomenal pace. Oh, oh! Order, please! - the han. members opposite should also know that ip the 60s, back in those - MR. BARRETT: Check the studies that were done then. MR. DINN: - back in those bad days, the outward migration, outward versus inward, there were 8,000 more going out than were coming in. Right now it is just a little over 1,000. Last year it was 2,000 and 6,000, I believe, more out than in. This year it is cown MR. FLIGHT: Where did you get the figures? Are you going to table them? MR.

DINN: this year it is down - yes, Statistics Canada.· The hen. member just has to call his buddies in Ottawa and get them from Statistics Canada, Mr. Speaker. And I would also like to record and report today to hon. members opposite who do not - MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible) . MR. DINN: - to hon. members opposite who do not like our local preference policy offshore, 6 8 1 5

- ---- - -·- .. ·--- -.-- -- - -- June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2533 SD - 1 M."R.. DINN: Well, I would like. to inform hon. members that there. are. now - the latest report out says that there are. 704 people working of .fshore. and onshore related to offshore. ~ Now, Mr. Speaker, before the. regulations in 1978, there was not one Newfoundlander working on a rig offshore. MR. MOORES: Rubbish. MR. DINN: Now, Mr. Speaker, not one - and I challenge the. hon. member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores) ·.·:·10 said, 'rubbish _', I challenge. him .to get the. figures - to back it up with figures, Mr. Speaker. Name. me the.

Newfoundlanders - but I can name, Mr. Speaker, 704 Ne.~foundlande.rs who are working offshore. and onshore directly related to offshore. And, Mr. Speaker, we are anticipating that we. will have three more drill rigs coming this year lv'h.ich will improve that situation dramatically. So, Mr. Speaker, I conclude, my time is up,but I will get some more time in the debate to outline more positive things to han. members opposite. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Hear, hear. Order, please!

Before recognizing the. hon. member for Grand Bank I would like to welcome. on behalf of all hon. members Mayor Sam Connors of Pouch Cove,from the district of St. John' s East Extern. Welcome .. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Grand Bank . MR. THOMS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am glad to see the Premier in his seat - whoops: I guess I spoke too soon. Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer specifically to the two Heads, Transportation and Municipal Affairs,as they relate to the district of Grand Bank. sa ·1s

·, --- ---- -- --~ ---- -- - June 15, 1981 Tape No. 2533 so - 2 MR. THOMS: You know, I sit here and I cannot help but ask myself the question why me, why the people of the district of Grand Bank, why are they being punished? SOME HON. MEr1BERS: Oh , oh. MR. THOM,S: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: What have I ever done - Oh, oh. - to the biggest maw mouth ever to come through the backroom doors of this House of Assembly? What have I ever done to him? What have I ever done to the Premier of this Province? What have I ever done to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). MR. NEARY: What have the people done? MR.

THOMS: What have I ever done to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook)? And more importantlv, Mr. Speaker, what have the people of Grand Bank done who for eight to ten years in this Province returned a Tory member to the House of Assembly? MR. HISCOCK: Attitude. MR. THOMS: What have they done ? My friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) spoke about new dollars coming into the economy of this Province and into the economy of this country. Well,there is no other distrist , bar none,in this Province that brings more new dollars. I am not talking about old , stale dollars that are turned around in Ottal'i'a - 11R.

NEARY: Re-cycled dollars. MR. THOMS: - re-cycled dollars that are turned around in Ottawa and sent flying down to this Province, I am talking about the American dollar, I am talking about the European dollar, I am talking about the new dollar that the people of Grand Bank, a district that is 100 per cent dependent on the fisheries, the dollar that they bring into the economy of this Province. Two years ago there was a roads programme brought in - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (B UTT ) : Order, please ! 6 6 "] 7

June 15, 1981 Tape No. 2533 IB-3 MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I really do not mind, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) can sit over there and yap like a puppy all day, 6 rJ ·1 8

June 16, 1981 Tape No .. 2534 GS - 1 MR. THOMS: he does not bother me, but I would ask my colleagues to refrain from answering - SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. THOMS: of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Order! - from answering the Min~ster Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. THOMS: I do not mind, I do not mind the lapdog from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), that does not bother me - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: to refrain - MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: Oh, oh! - but I would ask my colleagues Order, please! - from answering him.

Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker - Order, please! Mr. Speaker, two years ago the roads program was brought into this House. Not one single, solitary mention of the needs of the people of the district of Grand Bank. Now, ·Mr. Speaker, two weeks ago the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) brought in another roads program for this year and not one single, solitary mention of the needs of the people of the district of Grand Bank.

I challenge any member on the other side of the House, any minister, any backbencher, to come to the district of Grand Bank with me and to travel the approximately eight miles of road between Lord's Cove and Lawn. I have challenged them, and then to come back here and say that the people of that district should not have that new

section of 6 8 1 9

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2534 GS - 2 MR. THOMS: road upgraded so that ·it can be opened. The ridiculous thing about it, Mr. Speaker, is this: they constructed a new

section of ·road from Lawn to Lord's Cove. It is constructed. All it needs is a bit of Class A gravel or Class B or C or D or whatever the heck they put on these things,and to put a couple of culverts across and it is reopened. But you can mark my word, Mr. Speaker, you can mark my word, that sometime in the very near future that some person in this Province, some man, woman or child in this Province is going to be dead because of that particular

section of road. MR. MORGAN: Ineffective members. MR. THOMS: Somebody is going to be dead. You can sit there and you can talk about ineffective members all you like but the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the hon. minister who is yapping off again. The blame falls squarely there. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible} next election. MR. THOMS: Why do you not call a new election? Call an election. Put your money where your mouth is and call an election. Mr.

Speaker, if this administration for one minute believes, if this adminis­ tration believes for one minute that the people of Grand Bank are going to knuckle under because of the trea~~ent that the y are receiving from this administration, then they have another thought coming to them. Because the people of Grand Bank are ·not used to knuckling under. They are fishermen, they are hardy fishermen, they are good Newfoundlanders, they are hardy Newfoundlanders, they are hardy Newfoundlanders ·, they are not soft and pretty - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! 6820

---- ... June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2534 GS - 3 HR . THOMS : Mr. Sp eak er, they are not soft and pretty and maw -mouthed like the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Mo rgan ), they are not like that. They ar e hard -working, upstanding Ne wfound landers who des er ve bet ter treatment ~an they are getting from this admi.:-tistration . SOME RON • MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! ~- SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! Ord er, please! There are about four or fiv e hon . members to my right and on e at leas t to my left speaking at the same time as the hon. member fo r Grand Bank (~x . Thoms) who has the flo or, by the way. MR. TRO~ ".S: MR.

MORGAN: Thank you very much , Mr . Speaker . Like I say, I do not mind ­ (Inaud ib le) . 6821

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2535 IB-1 MR. THOMS: -I do not mind the whale that comes up every two minutes to have a blow, the Minister of Fisheries, the whale that comes up to have a blow every two minutes. But I would ask my own colleagues to ignore him. Ignore him just like the people of Bonavista South are going to do in the next election. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, so I talk about the roads programme and the people being ignored. Now,we come to capital works programmes for this year.

Not one single solit~ry community, not one community in the district of Grana Bank, not even an honourable mention, Mr. Speaker. You talk about your $20,000. I cannot even brag about $20,000 going to the people of Grand Bank. Where is the honourableness in this administration? Where is it? MR. MORGAN: MR. WHITE: MR. THOMS: (Inaudible) law. Mr. Speaker, this is ridiculous. Leave him alone. Mr. Speaker, leave the man alone . Because every time he opens his mouth the people of this Province - and do not forget there is a multiplier effect, every person in this gallery listening to the hon.

Minister of Fisheries is a multiplier. They go out and they tell somebody else., somebody else tells somebody else and eight turns into sixteen, sixteen into thirty-two and before long there are 200,000 voting Newfoundlanders who know what an ass the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) really is. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Jackass. MR. THOMS: Now, Mr. Speake=, not one single, solitary community in the district of Grand Bank got one cent. For two years not one single ,solitary community got a cent under the roads programme. And, Mr.

Speaker, I can give absolute assurances to any member on the other side,and if the pothead from Bonavista South wants to try me out on it he 6822

·- June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2535 IB-2 ~m. THOMS: can do it, but the people of the district of Grand Bank will not knuckle under. Anybody on the other side who thinks - may,be it is because r voted against the flag, Mr. Spea~er. I am being punished for voting against the . I; lag . Now, I am one of the Ne~vfoundlanders who has accepted the flag. I accept the rule of law , I accept the fact that this House has passed

an act creating a new flag.. I 1-1ear it ~roudly. I voted against i t in the beginning but I wear it proudly . Now, maybe I am being punished for voting against the flag. Maybe the people of Grand Bank are be i ng punished because t~eir member voted against the flag . SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~. THOMS: Oh, oh ! Mr . Speaker, I have a lot more to say yet and I am sure somebody will intervene to give ~e another ten ~,utes at this . M.R . SPE1-\..KER (BUTT) : The hon. the President of the CounciL M.R. MARSHALL: Mr . Spea~er, I have heard - I cannot resist getting into the debate to hear the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms l who is issuing t he same refrain that is from time to time gi ven by the member for St. t-ta_ry' s-The Capes (i"!r. Hancock l , no roads, no monies paid in. Now - t1R.THOMS: I did not say that. MR . MARSKALL: - I am l ooking at t he roads programme for 19.79 and 1980, f or example , and Grand Bank got $1.5 million 6823

June 16, 198.1, Tape 2536., l?age.l PK MR. MARSHALL: out of a total expendLture. that re.ar of $27 m~l~orr. St . Mary's - The Capes, wfiat did they get at that particular time? $3,300,000 out of S27 million. SOME lfON. MEMBERS: Oh., ol:i~ MR. STIRLING: (Inaudible.L so had. MR. MARSHALL : I would not bet on that. I would not bet on that. $1.6. mUlion in 1977~78 for Grand Bank, St. Mary's- The. Capes $1.4 out of a total budget of $l.Bmillion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: OlL, oh.~ MR. SPEAKER(Butt}_: Order, ple.ase.! Orde.r, please.~ · MR.

MARSHALL: Those. two dLstri 'cts ove.r the past seven or eight years , have. gott~ ve.ry muclL more than the amount would call for Lf you divided it ~to tha fifty-two districts. I would say that those. two distrLcts, Mr. Speaker, over the past ten ye.ars have received more money in roads than any othe.r distrLct in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.MARSKALL: P..nd the han. gentleman can howl all he likes about it and the two of them can make all the accusations they wish, but the fact of the matter is in the days before the l970s,with St.

Mary's particularly, there were completely dirt roads in the are.a, there was no .t a s:~gle mile of pavement. And as the han. member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson), who has a district alongside of St. Mary''s knows' there have been many, many, many miles, - MR. PATTERS'ON: Thirty million, provincial monies were since 1970. MR.MARSHALL: How many millions? MR. PATTERSON: MR. MARSHALL : into one district on its own. ThLrty million dollars. TlLirty million dollars put Dow~ in the district of Grand Bank there were many millions of dollars as well. And 6824

June.l6, 1981, Tape 2536 Page 2 PK MR. MARSHALL: we hear this type of accusation. pass ~ SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please .~ MR. MARSHALL: - and we will taRe, as - MR. .CALLAN: (Inaudible) Bellevue. MR. STAGG: Port au Port cannot take it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: 0~, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. 'MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, those are the facts of the matter. It is the same way throughout the Budget.

With respect to the Budget itself, we have here on.e. of the major expenditures in this Budget, one of the major expenditures this year is the provision. of a hospital in. the district of LaPoile. And we all know that the. district of LaPoile is not represented by a member on the government side of the House, and yet that same. member proposes an. non-confidence motion in the Budget which,if passed,would cancel out the hospital which we have provided. SOME RON. MEMBERS: AN RON . MEMBER: Oh., oh! Shame. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, there is not a single iota of truth in what the hon.. gentlemen. are charging.

Since this party has been. in power. over the previous ten years,there have been many mi.lli.ons. of dollars put into rural Newfoundland, in particular into St. Mary's district, in particular into Grand Bank district, and time after time after time the hon. members get up and say that there is now no money being put into the di.stricts. The. fact of the matter is there . are more districts than those two areas. The . area of Baie Verte, for instance, Baie Verte- White Bay - SOME' RON. ME.c"!BERS: Oh, oh.! 6825

June 16, 1981 Tape 2536 PK - 3 ~lR . MARSHALL : - which has a tremendous number of dirt roads, 1-l.r. Speaker, is now getting appropriate attention, long over due attention . SOME HON . ME..."1BERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSaALL: We intend, Mr . Speaker, in due course , to blanket all of Ne~vfoundland ~lith pavement - SOME nON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: . -from coast to coast. SOME H'ON. MEMBERS : Oh , oh! MR. MARSHALL: And Labrador as well, Mr. Speake~ .

So,I mean,there is not ,as I say,any justification to what the han . gentleman said. .l\nother item that I want to speak on ,in the limited time available to me ,is the remarks made by members of the Opposition yesterday in connection lvith the labour aspects of these estL'llates of Goverr.ment Serv ·ices with respect to the ernplox~ent policy of ~~s government . MR. ~ARY: MR. MARSH.JtLL: Okay . Let us hear it.

Now ,I would like to know how members on the opposite siee, 1•!:>.o repre se."'!. t people in their districts ..,hQ are seeking jobs ,can possibly justify their stand against the employment policy of this government, the !?reference 6!.126

-----···---- --- ·-- - - - . June 16 , 1981 MR. STIRLING: MR. MARSliALL: justify it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : .MR. SPEAKER (Butt): AN HON. MEMBER: MR • MARSHALL: MR. THOMS: MR. ~HALL: Tape 2537 EC - 1 I can. Well, the hon. gentleman can Oh, oh! Order, please! That is number one. What I am saying, Mr. Speaker - What a desficable policy. Well, that is fine. The more we hear that the better it is, Mr. Speaker, and the more we hear it the more it shOuld be promulgated. SOME E!ON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: The fact of the matter, Mr.

Speaker, is that that particular policy is most necessary because of the jobs it has brought to Newfoundlanders which they would never otherwise get. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: And I am going to repeat once a.gain an instance for this House in the hope that hon. members opposite will see the wisdom of our ways. I realize that is probably a v.ery vain hope but I am going to try anyway. One of the oil companies, Mr. Speaker, that was drilling offshore, complained bitterly about the policies of this government with respect to having to employ Newfoundland labour. And we received, Mr.

Speaker, the same hackney.ed complaints as to the reason why it could not be. AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) listen to that. MR. MARSHALL: Well, we do not have to listen to it but we have to listen to you over and over again. 6827

- ~-- June 16, 1981 Tape 2537 EC - 2 MR . MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is, it is because of the insistence of this government for the employment of Newfoundland people, many young Newfoundlanders got a chance to work on those offshore rigs where they would not have gotten a chance before. Now, if the hon. gentlemen have got the courage of their convictions, they will go out - and I hope they will go out - to their constituents and they will give them the very reason as to why Newfoundland - the present local preference policy should not apply. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) people. MR.

MARSHALL: I beg your pardon? '1R. FLIGHT: You tell (inaudible). Mr. Speaker, I really should not be distracted by the mice. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, all the gentlemen there opposite are capable of this carping criticism and they do not see the broad issues of this Province. They fail to see what this local preference policy is doing for the people of Newfoundland. MR. BARRETT : Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL : I can guarantee the hon. gentlemen there opposite, despite their complaint and despite their derogation of Newfoundland. that that local preference policy is going to be in effect for a good many years yet to come, until this Province enjoys a rate of employment equal and commensurate with the sister provinces in other parts of Canada. S Ol1E HON. MEHB ERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARS !tALL: Because that is what it is intended to do. And the hon. gentlemen by speaking about it are against the situation. AN HON . MEMBER: Right. Dead on. 682S

June 16, 1981 Tape 2537 EC - 3 MR. MARSHALL : Now, Mr. Speaker, I also want, in the limited time,to mention just one other thing. It is about the matters that have been raised in this debate from time to time about the way the government business is ordered in this House. It was particularly mentioned in considering the Government Services Committee. As far as the government is concerned, Mr. Speaker, this government is determined that it has a legislative programme. It is going to present it within the time frame set down and we are going to sit until such time as the legislation is passed.

Now, from time to time over the past week, Mr. Speaker, I have had members of the Opposition came to me and ask when we are going to rise because they want to rise. And I am going to observe, Mr. Speaker, that the scene which we saw yesterday - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Name them. MR. MARSHALL: No, I am not going to name them. The scene which we saw yesterday was because, Mr. Speaker, it was set up, and I believe - and I am just going to point this out. Just in case han. gentlemen are attempting to do it, they are trying to set up a situation, Mr.

Speaker, where ,as they have done in their infantile ways before, they get ejected from the House so that they will not have to sit in the House and the business will go 6829

June 16, 1981 Tape No. 2538 GS - 1 MR. MARSHALL : go through and they can go home. And this, Mr. Speake~, is the whole purpose for the exhibition, the disgraceful exhibition, which we saw yesterday. Mr. Speaker, we have also seen as to what is happening in this House and I say this quite frankly, that there have been reports - the members of the Opposition there opposite that two, three, four or five of the members have indicated that they are not going to follow the present leader. They have certainly shown that, Mr.

Speaker, and unfortunately the tail is wagging the dog and the people who are chasing it,on the opposite side,cannot even catch up with the dog. So I think it is time, Mr. Speaker, that we got down to the business of this House. We are talking about Government Services Committee, we are talking about the departments under the Government Services Committee.

We have been talking for almost three hours on this, almost three hours on the other - three hours on each of the other Headings and we have heard very precious little about the Committees ~~at were constituted, the Standing Committees that were constituted to look into these depart