LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 8 June, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. D. SCOTT introduced, by leave, Bill No. 55,

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate Southwood Golf and Country Club; Loi modifiant la Loi intitulee "An Ill Act to incorporate Southwood Golf and Country Club." J HON. L. EVANS introduced , on behalf of the Minister of Energy and Mines, by leave, Bill No. 56, The Mining Claim Tax Act; Loi de la taxe sur les claims miniers . (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant­ Governor) HON. A. MACKLING introduced, by leave, Bill No. 62,

An Act to amend The Insurance Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les assurances. (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor) HON. R. PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 63,

An Act to repeal Certain Statutes relating to Hospitals, Hospital Districts and Nursing Unit Districts and other matters; Loi · abrogeant certaines lois concernant les h0pltaux, les districts hospitaliers, les districts regionaux de soins infirmiers et d'autres questions . HON. J. '?LOHMAN introduced, by leave, Bill No. 64,

An Act to amend The Highway Traffic Act (2); Loi ~ modiflant le Code de la route (2). HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK introduced, by leave, Bill No. 65, The Surface Rights Act;

Loi sur les droits de surface. (Recommended by His Honour The Lieutenant­ Governor) HON. J. PLOHMAN introduced, by leave, Bill No. 67, the Off-road Vehicles Act ;

Loi sur les vehicules a caractere non routier . (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have 30 students from Grade 11 from the Fisher Branch Collegiate, under the direction of Mr. Dan Pona. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture .

On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. 2806 ORAL QUESTIONS King Commission Report - tabling of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board. I understand that the report of the King Commission, the Legislative Review Commission into the Workers Compensation Board, has now been printed . I wonder if the Minister will be tabling it today. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board . HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I believe I told the House last week that report would not be printed until around the 20th of June. But in order to facilitate the Opposition during the Estimates process, we have made some reports up and we will be tabling them on Thursday. King Commission Report - no news conference prior to tabling in the Legislature MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , I wonder if the Minister would give us the assurance that he will not have a public news conference about the report prior to tabling it for the interest of members of the Legislature. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: The usual practice that has been in place for tabling of the reports will be followed. King Commission Report - removal of all commissioners because of MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can indicate, in response to the many critical comments that are contained, as I understand it, in the King Commission Report, critical of the o~ration of the board, critical of the decisions of the board, the structure of the board and so on, whether he is going to be removing any or all of the commissioners as a result of the King Commission Review. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I'm sure that the Leader of the Opposition is aware that the review committee has been studying the whole Workers Compensation for the last 20 months. In the · report, there is a recognition of the work that has been carried out by the present Workers Compensation Board since 1981. They inherited the system; it was not working well. Injured workers were not receiving their compensation. There was no rehabilitation going on.

Monday,'8 Jl.ine, 1987 There was a public outcry of what was going on in the Workers Compensation at that time. It acknowledges that there was a lot of reform .carried out by that ex(sting board but, in that report, there is also the recommendation of the review committee that the board be restructured, and that's one of the many recommendations that we'll be looking at whep we complete the report . MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, given the Minist _er's comments then about restructuring, will he indicate whether that restructuring involves the removal of any or all of . .the board of directors of the Workers Compensation Board? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, as I have mentioned on previous occasions, there are 178 recommendations in the report. I believe that the full report has to be looked at' as an entire package . We cannot be taking one recommendation by itself , in solitary, and dealing with it. The entire report will _ have to be dealt with as an entire package and we are looking at reform .

The review committee is going to do part of that reform, but it's not going to be the only part of the reform that will be carried out. King CommiHion Report - cost of implementing recommendations MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , I understand that the Minister has been given an estimate of the cost of the implementation of the 178 recommendations that are contained in the King Report . I wonder if the Minister c.ould Indicate what is the estimated cost of implementing those 178 recommendatio _ns. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, one of the unfortunate parts is that we didn't tiave enough time for the review committee to do a thorough analysis to see what the costs are, and that is why we. qan't be acting on these reports immediately . We would .like to be tabling the entire report and say, yes, we will act on this one, we will not act on that one, if we had the costs worked · out at this time . That's one of the shortcomings of ttie report; they did not have the cost analysis worked out, so we will be doing an analysis on the cost before we make the recommendations . MR ... G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker , is the Minister · indicaf irig 'that he has not been given any estimate of cost of those recommendations? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I believe that I've already told you that I will be tabling the report on Thursday , at which time all the details on that report will be tabled at that time . Cormack-Qewar Report - tabling of Mt:I, G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that, in part, some of the findings and recommendations of .the King Commission Report are based on an internal study that we've · discussed, has been a subject of questions in this question period , the Cormack-Dewar Report into rehabilitation ; given that many of the recommendations are based on their review of things , including that Cormack -Report , will he now agree to have that report tabled along with the other information o'n Thursday? · HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , it's interesting that the Leader of the Oppos ition would know that there are parts of their report that are dealing with the 1' Cormack Report, and I wonder if the Leader of the Opposition already has a copy of the report. I would like to mention that was an internal review ., asked for by the Workers Compensation . It is their . report, and they will be dealing with it as they see fit. . Mason Repor• - whose deci•ion no• •o make public MR. G.

FILM.ON: Madam Speaker , t.his Minister , who has said he wanted to be open , completely open, about all aspects of this, and he said that he would be willing to open the files to me in the past, is now saying that we cannot have the Cormack Report on this . I wonder if he could indicate , because last week he indicated that we could not have the study that was done by Professor Mason, the University of Manitoba Research, Inc ., who did a study as well. Was that decision not to make that public, the Mason Review , his decision or the board's decision? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, very clearly I told the Leader of the Opposition that I would share my files with him. I didn't say that I would share the Workers Compensation Board files . Workers Compensa•ion Board - percentage of claim• and decisions overturned MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , I wonder · if the Minister could indicate what percentage of claims and rehabilitation decisions that were appealed to the boal'd were overturned by the board on appeal in 1986. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, we will be going irtto our Estimates on Thursday, I believe, and I believe a question of that sort is more appropriate for the Estimates process . Mi•ericordia Hospital - why doctors -paid on· a ·•••tt.:.salary basis versus fee-for-•ervice MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Health . As of July 1, it appears that the Misericordia Hospital will not have sufficient .staff to operate the Emergency Department because of the inadequate funding of the doctors who work within that department .

Will the Minister explain why doctors at the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface ·are paid on a fee-for-service basis,

whereas those doctors performing emergency 2807

Mooday, a June, 19.87 services in our other Winnipeg hospitals are on a staff­ salary basis . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , in different hospitals, there are some doctors who are on salary with the hospitals . Part of the problem , the situation there is that the increase that was given the doctors for last year hcisn't been passed on at this time, hasn 't been assessed . This will be done after some information is received from the MMA. This should be done very shortly.

I think there is still some concern by some of the members of the medical profession that they would like to see the base increase , and this is something they 're taking up with the hospital at this time . Misericordia Emergency Dept. to close July 1 - steps to be taken to remain open ~ MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Madam Speaker, to the same Minister, the Board of the Misericordia is already speaking about closing the Emergency as of July 1.

Can the Minister tell us what steps he will take to ensure that it remains open or to provide alternative services for those people who are now using the Misericordia as their major emergency station? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, this is being looked at at this time and discussed with the hospital, between the hospital and the Commission . I don 't think that this will happen at all, that the facilities will be closed . MTS - how did $0.5 million loss occur MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR. H.

ENNS: Madam Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System .

By way of explanation to you, Madam Speaker, before you rule me out of order because I suggest that you probably have grounds to rule me out of order inasmuch as the Telephone System is still before a legislative committee and its business is being discussed but , regrettably, like his Minister who preceded him in Telephone's portfolio who was the last to tell the legislative committee about the horrendous losses of some $27 million of that corporation , this Minister is following in those footsteps by, last Thursday, not telling us anything about the $0.5 million of new losses run up by that corporation .

We have to rely on the work of a diligent press to report that to the public and to us. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Telephone System . This $0.5 million of additional losses that the Manitoba Telephone System is apparently short of or lost , does that come about as a result of selling equipment , computer equipment and office equipment, below cost prices in competition with the private sector, or is it an actual inventory loss? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. G.

DOER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . Indeed , at the committee meeting last Thursday, did state and I quote that we have been dealing with a number of budget issues that are very serious in nature - and in fact I mentioned that three weeks ago, Madam Speaker - and the whole internal budgeting process we were reviewing . Madam Speaker, we're dealing with some very serious internal auditing issues now at the Telephone System . I raised that in my opening remarks with the members of the committee. I'm not exactly sure whether the Member for Lakeside was there at that time .

I believe there was only one member of the Opposition there when we started the meeting . Madam Speaker, in 1980 the Manitoba Telephone System , with approval of a sub-committee of Cabinet from members opposite - in fact I believe the Member for Lakeside was the Minister responsible - got into the computer sales business . Madam Speaker, since that time there has been fundamentally a totally inadequate accounting system in that area .

Madam Speaker, we did state that there were a number of areas under review at the Telephone System and indeed we have been having a very major auditing function internally at the Telephone System, and I expect further revelations as we continue to review these various projects . I was informed that there was some $600,000 discrepancy some couple of weeks ago which was referred immediately to an internal audit, Madam Speaker . Since that time there 's been $120 ,000 of that money reconciled .

When the internal audit is totally completed so that we have total information that we can place before elected representatives, we will make the complete results of that audit public. Madam Speaker , I also indicated at the committee meeti_ng two meetings ago , that we were reviewing a numb~r of projects internally and externally to see whether, in fact, the numbers that were given to us .were accurate or not in terms of the public of Manito~a.

That ' is a project that I committed ·10 the legislative committee that we would make public and we intend on making it public when we have it both internally reviewed and externally revi1:1wed. The i"ternal audit, Madam Speaker, is not completed but, when it is, those results will be made public to the legislative committee . MTS - RCMP to investigate - when called in MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, I suppose we're getting so blase to the scale of losses · experienced by that corporation that the Minister, when pushed and when asked that question . . . 2808

Mon_dtY, a June; 1987 "' i MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a supplementary question? MR. H. ENNS: . .. didn't divulge the fact that indeed we are talking about $0.5 million to $600,000.00 . My question to the Minister is: When did he call the RCMP in to investigate, if in fact he has? HON. G. DOER: Well, Madam Speaker, I met with Mr. Fraser some three weeks ago when he indicated that they were proceeding with an internal audit based on general discrepancies of those numbers .

He was not sure exactiy of the nature of the discrepancies, and that's why they were proceeding with a line-by-line internal audit. I asked Mr. Fraser to notify the RCMP; the RCMP, to my knowledge, have been notified. I verified that with Mr. Robertson iii terms of keeping abreast of the situation . At this point, Madam Speaker, the internal audit is not completed. When it is completed I believe fhat the RCMP have asked for a copy of that particular report. Since I was first notified of the numbers - and the numbers go back some years , Madam Speaker .

The audit will identify how many years it does go back, and it is because of the diligence being taken by Mr. Fraser , the new co·ntroller, that some of these issues are being raised for the first time, Madam Speaker. When that audit is completed, I believe if there are any matters of a potentially criminal nature, the RCMP will want to pursue that and we would want them to as weil. That's why we notified them originally of the discrepancy . Crown corporations - inadequate reporting investigation of MR. H. ENNS: A final supplementary question, I direct this question to th·e First Minister.

Madam Speaker, for the second time in relative short order, we have been advised that the RC.MP is investigating a Crown corporation. The legislative committee of this Assembly is sitting listening to reporting of ·the Telephone System as late as last Thursday, and we are not informed that the RCMP is investigating one of our most senior Crown corporations. Does the First Minister believe that is adequate information, that is adequate reporting to those of us Who are charged with the responsibility Of public a'ffairs ih this Legislative Assembly?

MADAM SPEAKER: Would the honourable member care to rephrase the last part of his question so it does ·not seek an opinion? The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, a direct question to the First Minister . If the RCMP are being called in to investigate the affairs of one of our Crown corporations, is that legitimate information that the House should be apprised of? MADAM SPEAK -ER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. G.

DOER: Madam Speaker, I did state at the committee meetings - and again, I can't recall whether 2809 ,;ij the Member for Lakeside was there - we're dealing ,~ with very serious internal auditing issues now at the l'!'! Telephone System . \'_i_ .. ,·· Madam Speaker, the RCMP have been notified; they have been notifed as a courtesy at the initial stages ~ because the audit , the internal audit, is not yet -~ completed. We were alerting them at the earliest stages, Madam Speaker. The investigation will begin, based on the results of the complete internal audit.

They have been not ified; there's been nothing further in terms of investigation until the internal audit is completed . It is a very serious issue, and that's why I said at the committee it was a serious internal auditing issue. Madam Speaker , since I was first notified of this issue, there has been $120,000 of the $600,000 reconciled in terms of the bookkeeping .

It is the feeling of the controller that some of these matters may be just bookkeeping matters that have arisen over the last .,, seven years that this operation has been in place in the Telephone System, and we are keeping the police apprised at the earliest possible chance and opportunity. 1 And, contingent upon what else is produced in the final internal audit report, will the House and the appropriate authorities be notified? RCMP investigation re MTS - when Minister notified MR. H.

ENNS: Madam Speaker, a question to the First Minister. ~ Was he notified that the RCMP were called in to , investigate a possible $0.5 million discrepancy at the '1 Crown corporation, namely, our Manitoba Telephone 1 System? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWU:Y: Madam Speaker, there appears to be ·some misunderstanding between what the Minister is saying and what the Member for Lakeside appears to th!n'k the Minister is saying. The Minister has indicated that tfre RCMP have been 1 notified as a courtesy arising from some preliminary impressions they have, as a result of the audit .

The • Minister has made it very, very clear, however, that until • that audit iS completed that the RCMP will not be asked to investigate, unless the completion of the audit confirms the possibility of criminality . That is quite a .1 different thing than what the Member for Lakeside is suggesting . Closure of beds - ongoing negotiations MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is for the Minister of Health .

Given that MHSC has recently approved cutbacks in hospital beds at Brandon General, are negotiations ongoing between MHSC, this Minister, and Winnipeg hospitals, for further bed closures in the province? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health.

Monday, 8 June, 1987 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes. Closure of beds - when decisions re MRS. B. MITCHELSON: I wonder if the Minister can indicate when the decision is going to be made and when these hospitals are going to be informed, Madam Speaker , of whether bed closures are to take place and, as a result, those hospitals can set up contingency plans, and inform their staff and let them know what they're going to be working, or how they're going to be working this summer . HON. L. DESJARDINS: They will be informed in an orderly manner if and when these bed closures are approved .

This is being looked at and discussion is taking place between the hospitals and the commission at this time . Closure of beds - layoffs result of MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Can the Minister inform the House if there will be staff layoffs as a result of these closures? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, Madam Speaker, there won't be. Manitoba Health Services - discontinued coverage for IUD's MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health .

Is the Manitoba Health Services plann ing to discontinue coverage for women choosing interuterine devices, IUD's, as a method of birth control? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: It no longer will be insured. The doctor inserting the device though , that'll be covered . The reason for that - there are a number of reasons. First of all, it's never been fully approved. There are concerns of side effects and also that it hasn't been working. It has not been used that much in the past, and there's no other province in Canada where this is covered . MRS. G.

HAMMOND: To the same Minister, considering that this is a service that has been supplied, is it the government's policy to make it more difficult for these women who choose IUD's, and mainly because they can't use the normal birth control methods, to practice birth control? Is it their policy to make it more difficult for these women to practice birth control by cutting funding? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, obviously my honourable friend had two questions on that paper and didn't listen to the answer at all. I gave the reason why it was done . MRS. G.

HAMMOND: My question is to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women. Would the Minister responsible for the Status of Women please consult with the Minister of Health and try and get these services back for the few women who need the service and shouldn't be expected to have to pay for it, once the service is needed? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for the Status of Women. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I'm pleased to inform the member that I've been in consultat ion with my colleague , the Minister of Health, and I can assure the member and repeat what my colleague, the Minister of Health, has said and that is two things : (1) there is a real concern from the health point of view for women about the IUD; and (2), that it is not totally inaccessible , that doctors are still insured or funded for providing the service . So I think the Minister of Health has given a full and complete answer, and is a result of consultations with myself and others.

Final offer selection legislation - approval of Labour Management Review Committee MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West . MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker , my question is directed to the Minister of Labour who , on Friday, introduced final offer selection legislation in the form of Bill 61 in this Assembly. Was the legislation approved by the Labour Management Review Committee? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, the Labour Management Review Committee had received a request from me to consider final offer selection, along with a number of matters.

I wrote to the Labour Management Review Committee with that request something like two years ago, and I'm aware of the fact that some discussions of a sub-committee had occurred in respect to the topic . However, no report had been received by me confirming progress in respect to that activity. I did meet with the Labour Management Review Committee and did brief them on the contents of the bill that I tabled on Friday, and heard their concerns in respect to the issue generally. Policy of government re consultation 24 hrs. before introduction of bill MR. J.

McCRAE: Madam Speaker, the Minister says the matter was put before the Labour Management Review Committee two years ago. Why is it the Minister didn't receive any recommendation from the Labour 2810

M'oiidii~ 8 ~une; ·1987 Management Review Committee? Does the Minister feel that, the evening before the introduction of such legislation , consulting with the committee is adequate? Madam Speaker , let me rephrase that question . Is it the policy of the government that consultation less than 24 hours before introduction of a bill , is that the policy of the government? . HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker , dealing with the last quest ion and then moving to the first statement by the honourable member, when I met with the Labour Management Review Committee shortly before the introduction of the legislation , I made it clear to them that I didn't intend the meeting with them to be argued by me or anyone else as consultation, but a briefing as to the proposed legislation . Madam Speaker , as to why the Labour Management Review Committee had not progressed further in respect to that matter, I think that question might be addressed to the chairperson or other members of the committee .

But let me assure you, Madam Speaker , and all members of this House, that I value the fact that the Labour Management Review Committee , made up as it is of an equal balance from both sides of management and labour, performs a very useful function in meeting together and discussing , in a reasonably harmonious atmosphere, issues that are of general interest to both management and labour .

I don't , as a Minister of Labour, put specific demands on that body for concrete results in respect to issues that are of importance to society , but the fact that they do meet together and discuss in that relationship I've described is very important to us and they have, from time to time, brought forward specific recommendations for change . Labour Management Review Committee - legislation receiving approval of MR. J. McCRAE: What important labour legislation in the last five years has received the approval of the Labour Management Review Committee? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, rather than provide the honourable member with an answer which he might consider too long or too flippantly short, I'll take the member 's question as notice. Legislation - Bernie Christophe writing MR. J. McCRAE: A final question to the Minister, Madam Speaker . Is Bernard Christophe writing any further legislation for this government with the specific purpose of disrupting the business climate in this province? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I don 't know of a legal draftsman by that name .

I know that we do employ people; we meet with people; we~are concerned to talk with everyone · who is interested in respect to our legislation . I have sent 2811 out a letter , enclosing a copy of the bill , to a large number of people and I expect to be having further discussions with people in • respect to this legislat ion, which I think advances the prospects in this province for a continuous labour relations harmony second to none in Canada . Government tenders - policy re MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Madam Speak er.

My question is to the Minister responsible for Northern Affairs . Given that the Department of Northern Affa irs recently awarded a tender for some $90 ,000 to complete sewer and water in the community of Sherridon , could the Minister indicate whether it is now government pol icy il to have tender bids received by telephone or, as ~ opposed to the customary way, of sealed public j tenders? ~ .l MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs . HON. E. HARPER: I'm not aware of any change of policy , but I'll take that question as notice . Government tenders - criteria used for phone-in bids MR. L.

DERKACH: While the Minister is taking that question as notice, Madam Speaker , I'm wondering if he could also indicate to the House what criteria was used in establishing who was the successful tenderer in the phone-in bids. HON. E. HARPER: I'll take that question as notice. Safe Grad advertising - costs of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister Municipal Affairs . of ~ HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Last week, the Member for River Heights raised a ·J number of questions about the Safe Grad advertising 'i on television .

I'd like to advise this House that the , i advertis ing is as a result of the recommendation by '.l the Safe Grad Coordinating Committee, which has as its members the Winnipeg Police Department, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police , Citizens Against Impaired Driving , Alcoholism Foundation of Ma~itoba, MPIC, the Department of the Attorney-General, Manitoba Liquor Control Commission , Manitoba Assoc iation of School Trustees , Manitoba Teachers' Society and the Department of Education . The cost of the advertising, the producing agency fees are $63 ,517; the media time is $36 ,000 .00 .

The costs are relatively low for a multimedia advertising campaign, and they are such that the material that has been produced can be used in future .years at a cost i of media · time .

Monday, 8 June, 1987 As indicated, the costs are very minimal when one considers the potential serious injury claims that could arise from accidents happening from young people driving , and the cost of $99,000, in total, represents something like 4/ 100ths of 1 percent of MPIC's budget. Business starts - number of 1986 versus 1985, percentage increase MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prair ~ . MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

This afternoon we'll be starting the Estimates of Business Development and Tourism , and I hope that we can have an honest and frank discussion with the Minister . But last week, Madam Speaker , the Minister said that the reason for the high number of bankruptcies that were experienced in Manitoba was because of the high number of business starts. Will the Minister table in the House the number of business starts for 1986 versus 1985 or the percentage of increase? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Development. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Yes, Madam Speaker, I'll be glad to provide the information in the House or in the Estimates this afternoon. MR. E. CONNERY: Well, is ii the policy of the Minister to be satisfied with a 3.4 percent increase in the number of business starts with 105 percent increase in bankruptcies? This Minister should know -(Interjection)- Highway 340 - meeting with residents of Douglas re petition MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

My ~ question is directed to the Minister of Highways and , Transportation regarding the upgrading of Highway 340 through the village of Douglas. The Minister has received a resolution from the municipality , and a petition signed by the residents of that particular village. I wonder if he could inform the House if he plans on meeting with the residents and , as a result of that petition, with the municipal people out there . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation . HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I will be getting a report from the department and, if I feel there are still outstanding issues as the result of that information, then I will ask that a meeting be set up. Douglas Marsh - nesting ground of rare bird MR. D. BLAKE: In the resolution from the municipality , Madam Speaker , i t mentions the Douglas Marsh as a distinct breeding ground or nesting grounds of a rare bird . I wonder if he would confer with the Minister of Natural Resources in connection with the proposed route. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to see the concern that the member is voic ing for the environment, certainly one that is shared on this side of the House and if, as a result of the report that I get from the department , I feel at that point in time that it requires an additional meeting and discuss ions with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources , that we will undertake that . MPIC - policy re appointments with appraisers MR. D. BLAKE: Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for the Man itoba Public Insurance Corporation .

I wonder if he could inform the House the policy in connection with making appointments with an appraiser at the adjusting offices of the corporation . MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister responsible for MPIC . HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, Madam Speaker , my understanding is that , where we have dial -a-claim centres and a claim is to be filed, one simply calls the dial-a-claim centre and an appointment is made for an appropriate lime for the claimant to have the damage assessed.

With respect to rural communities where we have adjusters travelling on a weekly basis , my understanding is that appointments are set up and claimants then meet with the adjuster . MR. D. BLAKE: I thank the Minister for giving us that policy . I should bring it to his attention though - it's just been brought to my attention - that a father accompanying his daughter to one of the claim centres was told that he had to phone to make an appointment, and he was the only person standing in the claim centre. The clerk had walked away from him before he cou ld get to the pay phone in the centre.

I just wondered what the policy was in connect ion with making appointments . MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that question period is a time for seeking information , not supplying ii. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Just in response to that , Madam Speaker . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. There was no question . Constituencies - increase in and cost MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert . MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you , Madam Speaker, a question to the Premier . 2812

-·~'.?, .; ; • . .... <·, ·- _'- "!-- '' .• . ' • 'Moticiit'y;·'tf·J"une, 1t&1 -il --------------'----------------- I I would ask him if it is the intent ion of the government to increase .the number of MLA constituencies frqm 57 to 60 at this Session of the Legislature? If so, could he indicate the cost to the public in the future? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON . H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , the_re is ri'o intention to increase the number cif const ituencies from 57 to 60. COMMITTEE CHANGE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

Committee changes , I move , seconded by the Memberfor Elmwood ,'that the composition of Standing Committee on Public Accounts be amended as· follows : Ashton for the Hon. A. Mackling . ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. 'HON. J. COWAN: Yes, 'Madam Speaker, on a matter of House Business, · 1 believe there 's ah inclinat ion on the part of all members today to have Private Members ' Hour.

I move , Madam Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Labour, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself ihto a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her 'Majesty.

MOTION presehted iind carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in tt\e Chair for the Department of Energy and Mines , and the Man'itoba Jobs Fund ; and the Honourable Member for ' Lac du Bon'net in the Chair for the bepartrrient of Employment Services , arid the Department of Business bevelopment and Tourism. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EMPLOYMENT SERVICES AND ECONOMIC SECURITY MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: The committee will come to order, please.

I guess _ we have the M inister here with us today , so we'll continue with Employment Services . Remember last week, when we finished off , we thought we would be in another department ·this time . The Minister would like to answer some questions ·which were raised last week . . Mr. Minister. HON. L. EVANS: Thank you, Mr.· Chairman . The main question , I believe we said that we would look into, as raised by the Member for Gladstone, was with regard to the \JI/hat she perceived to be a very j massive increase in the bu_dget of the Executive Support ~ function of the department.

That is the $23,700 in 1983- ) 84 to $334,100 in 1987-88 . · '~---. indeed, that is a fifteenfold i"ncrease which appears 1 to be very exceedingly large, but I can confirm now i .i that is a bit of an anomaly because,, in'83-84, the ~ department was created.

The department was created J in November of'83 so, first of all, we didn 't have the i complete year, but those positions , Executive Support -~ positions, came about from the creation of the ,.~ department and the transferring from Community I" Serv ices and responsibilities from the Department of : Labour . ~ So there were additional staff years provided by Ji.

Treasury Board on top of some of the positions )' transferred but , at any rate , the bottom line is you ;;_ should really look - I suggest you look - at the '84-85 _" ·year which is the year Which represents the first full •1,­ year of the budget, and the size of the staff was eight. .. The number of staff which was agreed to in 1983-84 was eight , but we didn 't have a full year. So by the time people got i!:)to place and we were organ ized, we j had a full year operating in'84-85 and, at that time, l we had eight staff , total expenditures were $316,600.00. _ 1._.

So you should really compare with that base to today, · 1987-88 , Wliere we're asking for $334,100, which is an '. increase of only 5.5 percent. That is quite a minimal ,, increase considering we're looking at an increase over ., ·'!j a four-year span to get a 5 .5 percent increase over -·. four years . I hope that clarifies what I think is a misunderstanding /<i, Sometimes confusion rises easily because what -is '" printed doesn't always reflect the full year, so that 's J really the problem . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone . MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. I'll thank the Min ister for that information .

You've no other matters to raise from the day before? 1 HON. L. EVANS: Yes, there was the " Terms of j . Reference for the Internal Aud it ." We will be forwarding ~ that to you. I don't have it with me, but we will be a ::a:d~:~:::~ y::~n we will c~ntinue with the ,: 1 Estimates, then. ;' HON. L . . EVANS: Anything that we don 't have today,·-:, we'll certainly forward , whatever , as soon as possible . , ·i MRS. C. OLESON: Is it possible for the Minister to ·:i table that audit when it is complete '£!? HON. L.

EVANS: Just as a clarification - did you mean to ti\ble the Terms of Reference for the internal auditor? MRS. C.' OLESON: As well , that and plus when the audit is completed . HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman , I don 't think there is.; a report that is tabled . The internal auditor works on, an ongo ing basis , checking week by week, month by '·* '•. fj /

Monday, 8 June, 1987 month, year by year. It's a financial function within the department so there will be no report as such to table , as opposed to the Provincial Auditor, who does table publicly a report on our department as well as the other departments. highlighting any problems or whatever from year to year. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. We will begin today with

section 3, page 61, in the book. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. In my opening remarks , I mentioned a staff reduction , a huge staff reduction . in this area and no doubt the Minister will explain it. But there is also a cut in funding in the area . It doesn't reflect the total cut , what you would expect if you cut that number of staff. So we will be asking for some clarification on that .

Now the Minister has put out press releases and 1 often talks in the Legislature about federal cutbacks and, if you take a look at the department and make note of the expenditures as a percentage of the total of budget of each department, it gives you a different picture. The administration of Finance and Economic Security has been rising as a percentage of the department spending and the Employment Services

section has been declining from , for instance , 9.7 1 percent in 1984 to 6.3 percent this year as a total . percentage of the budget. This is in an area of job creation which is somewhat suprising , and so I'll be asking the Minister to explain just how he considers it a cutback when it's a 50-50 share or more in most · cases of the job creation programs of this department . ' It's rather then difficult to see how there can be cutbacks. For instance , the Recoverable from Canada in this department, as a percentage of the total budget , in 1984 were 52 percent of the total budget and in 1987 they were 54 percent.

So you wouldn't really, not in my book at least, that's not cutback. Perhaps there'll be an explanation for that coming forth. Maybe the Minister would like to comment on that now. HON. L. EVANS: First of all , I would comment that the major job creation and job training programs that we have in the department , namely Training for Tomorrow and the Careerstart Programs, are not cost-shared with the Federal Government. Those are purely provincially funded. The only cost-sh aring job training - and I might stand to be corrected my somebody here if my memory fails me.

The major cost-sharing is this Employment Enhanceability for the welfare recipients . That is cost­ shared as we explained before but , other than that, the only exception is the Northern Development Agreement where we have cost-sharing for northern youth jobs . But our two major programs , there is no cost-sharing in that respect. But what has happened, when I talk about the federal cutbacks, I'm talking about the total spending of the Department of Employment and Immigration in the Province of Manitoba, which in cl udes their own activities ; they're under the Canadian Jobs Strategy.

The Federal Government has grants tha t they give out themselves. That's their program which they administer. Also there is funding from that department for our community coll ege s under the National Training Agreement. I don't have all these figures here, but there have been very major - I don't know whether the staff has any - reductions in the spending of the Federal Government in the past two to three years.

That' s beyond our department , with the only exception being the National Training Agr eement whereby Flora MacDonald announced a policy of cutting back on funding of community colleges on direct purchases by 39 percent in a three-year period. That indeed has been going on. We've tried to salvage a bit of that, as I explained the other day, by setting up this Advisor y Council. The Federal Government has agreed that we could set up a council whereby we could hope to get som e indirect purchases and that money funnelled back into the colleges , so we're going to try.

But the policy is, not only for Manitoba, for all the provinces, that is the nature of the cutback. So that has occurred, and there have been reductions in total spending under the Job s Strategy . Thos e are facts , and they 're not our facts or figures . We get them , I guess , as a matter of courtesy . It's not really for me to sort of publicize the Government of Canada 's spending, but that's what I'm referring to in terms of cutback . We don't have any cost-sharing of our major job programs. except for that Northern Development Agreement. MRS. C.

OLESON: I understand that the Jobs Strategy is a change in focus from community college training to on-the-job training . Perhaps that's where the Minister can see cuts. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, the Federal Government's focus - they've said , and I was at the conference when Flora MacDonald was the Minister who made the statement to the Provincial Ministers that they would like to have more private involvement in training. Fair enough, but we maintain , and some of the other provinces maintained that the private sector in our province - we didn 't think that our industry was large enough.

We have so many small enterprises that weren't in the position, didn't have the capacity to set up training programs in-house and that we'd be better able to serve them by doing what we had been doing very well through Assiniboine College , Keewatin and Red River Colleges. That is by offering training programs in cooperation with the private sector because, as the member may know, often the industry comes to the college and says, we need a program in welders or we need a program in agriculture machinery or whatever. The colleges are doing their best to respond . We said, that system works very well.

We don 't think that , in Manitoba, our industry will take advantage of the indirect purchases, and indeed that has been the case. There has been a drop , a fall off there of these purchases, and there 's not the money going into the colleges . Indirectly what is happening, instead of the company setting up training programs on the job, we've had a lot of the se instant, private training establishments . They 're coming out of the woodwork, so to speak, offering training programs and they 've been getting federal grants .

I question very seriously the ability of some of the overnight training establishments to offer the same 2814

Monday, 8 June, 1987 quality train ing as our community colleges have offered , because our community colleges have offered a standard of tra ining second to none . My views on this matter are indeed shared by most of the other small provinces, the Maritimes, for instance, and so on have the same concerns that I have, so it's certainly a matter of having faith in the community colleges , and the serious concerns that we have that it is being undermined. I think that we haven't seen the last of this yet.

There may have to be some major cutbacks in the community colleges within the next year or two because the Federal Government, through Canada Employment, have been one of the major purchasers of all these seat s, these places there. At any rate, there is the hope and the thought by the Federal Government that the priva te sector would move in. We said and some of the other provinces said we didn't think the private sector would move in, in our prov ince, and indeed they haven't moved in to the degree I think that Mrs . MacDonald thought they would. MRS. C.

OLESON: Can the Minister comment on the cuts of 106 - I haven't got the percentage point - but 106 people from the total department of Employment Services? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, are we going line by line? MRS. C. OLESON: No, well I was just going to ask on the entire area . HON. L. EVANS: I don 't mind jumping around. MRS. C. OLESON: Is that in another - like , it's the entire Department of Employment Services , as I understand from the Supplementary Estimates Book . HON. L. EVANS: Okay, well we can talk about this now if you like.

There has been, in order to offer the STEP program - that's the Student Temporary Employment Program . Within governmen t we have had to have the SY's, the staff year positions available , and they 've been available in our depa rtm ent for all departments of government. So one staff year may represent four or five student jobs . So what has happened , we have - because every department has been asked to try to make some expenditure reductions and try to help meet the big deficits that we have - had to make some reductions. So this is the main area.

There has been a reduction therefore in some of the STEP money, also a slight reduction in programs, New Careers North, New Careers South - I'm talking about staff positions now. Also the Stevenson Aviation Training Centre , there's been a reduction, and the re has been a reduction in administration . On the other hand , there 's been a bit of incr ease in some departments . We had to have some increase in the Single Parent Job Access because we're going int o that. We've had an increase in our Regional Employmen t Services .

We've had a little increase in the immigration and settlement area and also in Employment Enhancement. That's related to the federal-provincia l agreement, the Diversion Fund. So the bottom line is a decrease of 106 positions this year, but those are mostly the STEP positions. MRS. C. OLESON : I see, so we can discuss that unde r the STEP line. I didn 't know where that was for sure, so that's why I had to ask it here . Could the Minister tell us how many manufactur ing jobs have been lost in Manitoba between the years '81 and '87, and what would that translate into doll ars in wages lost? HON. L.

EVANS: Well , I'd have to get some information on that . I have some reports on manufacturing jobs . It's hard to tie it to an estimate of wages . What everybody 's been using recently are the labour force statistics on the manufactur ing indus try. And I'm just wondering , some of my staff are here . We have some tables upstairs . I just might add , Mr. Chairman , that - so we can get these figures and discuss them.

I would add this , that what has been happening regrettably throughout Canada in almost every province , not every province but most of the provinces including Ontar io, there has been a reduction in manuf acturing jobs as a percentage of the total labour force . What's happening is a very major structural change . That is - and this is not pecul iar to Canada. It's a characteristic that you can observe in Western Europe and the United States as well. That is there is a shift in manufactu ring activity to low -wage areas of the world, including Southeast Asia.

So the figures will show that there has been an inclination in various jurisdictions - and I say there are many provinces of Canada where there has been this reduction in manufacturing jobs, so it's not peculiar to Manitoba. There are some provinces that have had a more ser ious decline in m an ufac turing jobs as a percentage of the labour force than in this province. I'll have som e more figures, we can discuss them further. I don't have any estimates of what this translates into income. MRS. C.

OLESON: The Minis ter mentioned in his opening statement and he mentioned it this afternoon too , the forma tion of the Manitoba Training Advisory Council. What will be the size of that council and what will be the cost of running it? HON. L. EVANS: The exact size has not yet been determined, Mr. Chairman . MRS . C.

OLESON: Now will this council, will it be coordinating programs within this department and other departments of the government to not only look at the effectiveness but also, if there's duplic ation of programs with in the government with job creation programs , bec ause so often there are people who fall through the cracks and don't qualify for any program that' s available, but still are in despera te need of some help. I wonder could the Min ister comment on ju st what the function of this Training Adv isory Council will be. HON. L.

EVANS: The essential function is to help make up for the shortfall in government purchases of trainin g programs at the community colleges . That's th e essential primary, single purpose , as a matter of fact, of that council because, as I was explaining a few minutes ago, the Federal Government has decided to reduce over a three-year period the purchases of space s 2815

Monday, 8 June, 1987 in the community colleges. They have accepted that, in Manitoba, it's difficult for the private sector to take up the slack. So this council is a vehicle of assisting the private sector take up the slack , that's essentially what it is. Through this council , we are hoping to promote more purchases of spaces at the community colleges from the private sector. The Federal Government has agreed . We've signed an agreement as a matter of fact on this . This council is appropriate and should be set up and should facil itate those indirect purchases . MRS. C.

OLESON: So there is no function within this department to evaluate and to coordinate job training programs to see that none overlap within the government and this department and others? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman , we do that on an ongoing basis . We have research personnel and program managers. Senior personnel and policy people are indeed very cognizant of the need to avoid any duplication and so on, but it's an ongoing thing . As far as the government as a whole is concerned, there is the Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet, and it has a secretariat, it has economists and researchers and so on.

They have that as a responsibility . MRS . C. OLESON: Under the Employment Development and Youth Services Programs, Canadian Jobs Strategy, what programs fall in this department that come under that federal program? Canadian Jobs Strategy , just what programs in your department come under this? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman , there are no Canadian Jobs Strategy monies funding any of our train ing programs or our job creation programs. The exception I gave you was the Northern Development Agreement, but that's not the Canadian Jobs Strategy .

As we discussed last week, the Employment Enhancability Program under the National Diversion Fund, which we just signed, that's a separate thing . That's really more related to welfare . It's directly related to welfare recipients and monies can only be used for them, so I wouldn't call that part of the Canadian Jobs Strategy necessarily .- (Interjection)- We don 't , but sometimes the feds do.

There are many provinces - and maybe the member is referring to this - there are some provinces, particularly the Maritimes, who do have cost-shared programs under the Canadian Jobs - they may have a summer job program, which they cost-share on, etc . We have not done that. Our major programs are totally funded by the province . MRS. C. OLESON: Under this heading of Employment Development and Youth Services, there's an increase of $73,000 under Salaries and a decrease of $115,000 in Program Funding. Would the Minister explain that, please? HON. L.

EVANS: The member is referring to lines 3.(b), (1), (2) and (3), I take it. Well the salary increase would be the normal incremental increase . It's available in a general salary increase . I t's not really any more staff ; there are no more staff. And the reduction , I guess that reflects some of the STEP money we were talking about. MRS. C. OLESON: The Job Training for Tomorrow Program , what program does that replace or is it an additional program? HON. L. EVANS: It's a new program . None of these programs are stipulated by statute .

Unli ke funding of hospitals or school divisions , etc ., where by statute the Government of Manitoba has to provide certain funding based on whatever formula , these training programs have to be looked at each year. There 's nothing written in law that we have to have Careerstart every year, for example . The government can just say, well , sorry, we're not going to have Careerstart this year and likewise with the major train ing program. So this is a new program, Training for Tomo rrow. There's a great deal of emphasis put on training where the staff sit down with the employers and it's very, very intense .

We haven't gone to this extent in the past in sitting down and ensuring that there be adequate training programs in all industries , in all occupations, no matter how big the company or the enterprise is. The Job Training for Tomorrow is new in that respect . The previous year, however, we did have a program called Manitoba Jobs in Training Program but there were different elements to it. It didn't have the same emphasis on training . This one, you have to agree to a training analyst to come in and ensure that there is a proper training program established with the terms of reference and so on.

You have to agree that the person stays on, is a permanent job, is to carry on after the wage subsidy is completed, after the training is completed , and there are a lot of conditions set forth under this program that are new. MRS. C. OLESON : What is the fund ing for the program? HON. L. EVANS: The program funding is $10.6 million in '87-88. MRS . C. OLESON: And how many people have been placed in that program? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the program began in the fall of '86 and as of now, May of '87, the number of positions approved is 1,906. MRS. C. OLESON: Nineteen hundred and six? HON. L. EVANS: Yes.

Eventually, with the monies we have available, we should be able to employ about 3,200 people, the estimated total that could be assisted under this program . MRS. C. OLESON: How do you get into this program? Is it from the unemployed list or from social assistance or what is the criteria for entry into the program? HON. L. EVANS: It's fairly liberal employment entry conditions . We do have certain affirmative action aspects of the program . For instance , we try to 2816

Monday, a June, 1987 en·courage womeri particuiarly in non-traditional or technical occupations. We also have another affir'mative action component whereby we encourage employers to hire persons who may be laid off because of technological change; arid then we have an incentive for people to hire people 55 years of age and over - we have some additional incentive . We provide an additional four weeks of subsidy if they hire somebody 55 years of age and over. But otherwise it's up to the employer; we don't hire the people.

The employer hires persons; and we pay 50 percent of the hourly wage up to a maximum bf $4 an -hour, plus employee benefits; which is up to 10 p~rcent of the wage assistance. That additional allowance is for CPP and UiC payments . But the persons do not have to be on welfare, although we are doing our best to channel welfare recipients to the extent that we can into the program, but it's up to the employer to find the persori. The fact is that you're obtaining somebody who's being given a job .

And of course, it's somebody who need training, and it can't be somebody who's - let's say it'S a particular mechanic type of job. You cari 't hire somebody who's a fully fledged mechanic to be trained. It has to be somebody who needs the training in that position. MAS. C. OLESON: Is there a brochure that you send out? Could I have a copy, if you do have one? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MAS. C. OLESON: Thanks. The Job Access for Young Adults - it's referred to in the Minister's opening statement of August 1986 as a pilot project. Is it still ongoing? HON. L.

EVANS: You're talking about the - yes, it was successful and one of the components under the Employment Enhanceability Program that we have going with the Federal Government, one component is with youth; and it's a carry-over from whai we got started last year. MRS. C~ OLESON: How many young adults are in the program? HON. L. EVANS: 32 at the present time. MAS. C. OLESON: What's the criteria .for entry into this program, arid does it lead and haS it led to permanent Jobs? HON. L. EVANS: It seems last year, Mr. Chairman, under this program, roughly 50 percent did find employment that we know of after we finished .

It was a ratio of.SO percent, roughly . So I would hope we'd be equal to that now or even better. It depends on a lot of factors, -because sometimes you can go through this. It depends ori the individual. Not everybody, for whatever reason, even though they are trained ·and so on, ends up - these are very difficult cases. MRS. C. OLESON: · What is the criteria for entry? believe . I asked that first. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, these are people who are referred to us usually by various social service agencies.

There are some conditions, among them are they have to be on Social Allowances - that's welfare - or eligible for Social Allowances. Also, normally we're dealing with young people who have a very limited education. So we are dealing with people in a very disadvantaged situation. MAS. C. OLESON: The Careerstart Program, what changes were there in the Careerstart Program this year? · HON. L. EVANS: You're talking about the terms of reference for the program? MAS. C. OLESON: Yes. HON. L.

EVANS: I think that it's generally the same as last year with the one major exception - we're talking about the terms of reference here - would be the creation of the institutional category, which is something "'f' we had already in our major program, Training for Tomorrow, and we decided to implement that in the Careerstart Program. What is institutional really are the various non-profit organizations who are usually fairly well-funded, so we made a decision to take the relatively smaller, poorly-funded nonsprofits and continue them as non-profits.

But if the organization was a nursing home, a municipal government, a university, a hospital, etc., that are well-funded, generally speaking - maybe the organizations may not think they're well-funded, but I mean compared to a day care centre or, say, a mentally­ handicapped workshop, they are very well-funded compared to those organizations . Because we wanted the money to go around as far as possible, we said we would expect you to come up with 50-50 cost­ sharing. I know there was some concern about the universities, but it's interesting there was quite a major take-up by universities .

There wasn't that much fall off. Last year, there was approved 374 positions and this year it was 327 approved so, even though they had to come up with half of the money, there wasn't that much of a fall off . MAS. C. OLESON: Was there a cut in the number of hours or weeks worked? HON. L. EVANS: In some instances, we did cut the number of hours or weeks worked . The idea again is to spread it around as much as possible. MAS. C. OLESON: The Minister said that there were cuts in some of the institutions because they were ,. already well-funded.

Did he consid J r the Western Manitoba Agricultural Museum one of those, because I think they had some cutback in funding in hours and they certainly don't consider themselves well-funded . HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'd have to check to see whether that was categorized as institutional. · I wouldn't think it should be but , even ii it weren't, as I said, some organizations didn't get as much money this year or didn't get as many hours or weeks. I'm not sure what the details are for that . 2817

Monday, 8 June, 1987 MRS . C. OLESON: One of the problems with this , of course - and I 'm sure it's been mentioned to you before and I believe I have ment ioned it to you before - is that these organizat ions , such as the Agricultural Museum and other organizations of that nature, become so dependent on these grants, and it really puts a crimp in their budget when they don't get them or when they're cut back .

They rely on them because otherwise they couldn 't provide the services that they 're providing to the commun ity. • I think the Agricu l tural Museum, one of its major problems is they can 't hire enough tour guides if they don't get enough funding this way, so they can't provide the tours in the summer that they would like to prov ide. HON. L. EVANS: First of all, I can advise the member that the Agr icultural Museum is considered non-proft , non-institutional. The problem the member alludes to is quite a serious problem with a lot of non-profit organizat ions.

That is, they've come to depend on these job grants as core funding . They should really have adequate core funding from whatever government source , be it federal , provincial , mun icipal or whatever. If that is ... MRS . C. OLESON: Speak to the Minister of Cultural Affairs about it. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, that's what should happen . What happens, this includes the mentally handicapped as well, and a lot of non-profit where they come to depend on our job programs for ongoing funding, and they were not meant to be that. MRS. C. OLESON: Is the Careerstart Program funded under the Jobs Fund? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MRS.

C. OLESON: So how is this operated then? We talked about th is in the Economic Security sect ion or maybe under Administration , about the Jobs Fund payments . Does the Jobs Fund Department pay a lump sum to the Department of Employment Services and then the cheques are made out by this department to the individuals? Is that how that's operated? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MRS. C. OLESON: So the Careerstart payments from the Jobs Fund money appear on this line in the Estimates under 3.(b)? HON. L. EVANS: Yes; Mr.

Chairman, while we pay out the monies , the monies don't appear in our vote because the monies had been voted by the Legislature for the Manitoba Jobs Fund. Having been voted by the Legislature - and that's why it's on that line - then internally there 's a transfer and we spend the money. They give it to us and we spend it, but it's on their budget because, yes, the Legislature must approve the spending and so it's the Jobs Fund who comes to the Legislature for approval to spend monies here, there and so on. That's why it's on the books in that respect . So we don't have it here. MRS. C.

OLESON: I'll just mention it to the Minist er - and I think we've mentioned it before - it is an exerc ise in futil ity as an Opposition member to try and trace the Jobs Fund money. So that was an attempt on my part to take something out of the mystery of it. The Unemp loyed Help Centre - I think there are two of them , one in Brandon and one in Winnipeg - is their only function now assisting people to get more unemployment insurance money? HON. L.

EVANS: That is the essential function, but they 're also set up to provide some employment counselling ; and I understand they do provide advice and assistance on job search and just general counselling with employment matters . But I would say that probably their main work is to provide technical advice on unemployment insurance . I do understand that they've estimated quitt;l a fair amount of money that's been bound for unemployment insurance recipients that they would not have obtained otherwise .

I don 't know whether we have any estimates here, but the Winnipeg Centre, for instance , i n 1986 served over 3,400 individuals and was successful in case appeals to the extent of returning $290,000 in unemployment insurance payments to individuals . In the previous year, it was also over $200,000 .00. I just might add, Mr. Chairman, that if those people didn 't get it that would be $290,000 that Manitoba wouldn 't see. We wouldn't have obtained it. So to that extent , we've obtained another $290,000 from this fund. You should know that, in Manitoba, we pay more into the fund .

Workers and businesses pay more into the fund than we draw out of the fund . In other words , Manitoba is a net contribu tor to unemployment insurance in Canada unlike, say, some of the Atlantic provinces where it's just the reverse, but that 's a result of our relatively low unemployment insurance . But anyway, I'm quite satisfied that the one in Brandon is also - of course , i t's on a smaller scale - but they are also , I know , keeping track .

Let's see, the figures we have here , they 've dealt with 800 people and they were successful in reinstating UI benefits for individuals to a value of over $103,000 .00. MRS. C. OLESON : On page 39 of the Supplementary Estimates Book that was put out, the objectives of this department are stated, and I quote : " To minimize the level of unemployment, to increase the skill levels . of workers in relation to job market demands of Manitoban employers .'' So I was just wondering . how those two statements justify the funding of an agency whose main function is to obtain unemployment insurance.

I mean, you 're stating as your objective , " employment ," and yet you're setting up an agency to get unemployment insurance, and the Minister qualified when he said we were a net contributor to the unemployment , because you can't have it both ways as we are reminded the odd time . HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman , these agencies also are supported - well, the one in Winnipeg in particular is supported by other sources , United Way, and ultimately and hopefully the one in Brandon will get add itional funding from other sources from the community because it is a community-wide service, but 2818

Monday, 8 June; 1987 they do offer assistance to people in finding jobs and so on. (Mr. Deputy Chairman, D. Scott, in the Chair.) We think that it's within our mandate of trying to work for Manitobans and it's in the area of unempJoyment. We're trying to minimize the level of unemployni~nt. We're trying to maximize income available to workers. Anybody in Manitoba who's been in the labour market and regrettably is unemployed , we want to make sure that they get whatever they 're entitled to.

I might add, we were talking - maybe while the member is looking up some other - I just wanted to pass on some information regarding manufacturing jobs . The fact is - and this was brought up in the Legislature ~ that there has been a reduction in manufacturing employment percentage-wise . I think the figure was referred also by the.Canadian Manufacturers ' Association, suggesting a decrease of 14.1 percent . This is taken from the Statistics Canada Labour Force S4rvey . While that is correct, the member should know that all but one province in Canada suffered a reduction in manufac turing jobs .

The only province that shows an increase between March of '87 and November '81 - I'm going back five or six years because that 's what was 'referred to in the newspaper

article on this . I'm taking that as a benchmark, November'81. The only province that didn't have a negative position was New Brunswick . It had a very minor increase , a percentage increase. But every other province - some are less than Manitoba , some are higher - Ontario is minus 4.4 but you can look at Alberta, it was higher than Manitoba , their decline was 15.3 percent . British Columbia was a decline of 16.7, Newfoundland was a decline of 20. If you take Canada as a whole, there's been a decline.

So as I said, that is a characteristic that we see today in this particular industry , that there is a relative decline in the number of people working . On the other hand, If you look at it, you can look at it in terms of manufacturing as a percentage of total employment, and you'll see some slight decline there too.

But that again, from all the figures we have here , is the same pattern as you'll see across the country, that the percentage of people working in the manufacturing component of the industry, if you take all the industries, a total of every kind , shape or form - service industries, agriculture, fishing , mining , etc.­ and you add them up for a total, you'll firid that manufacturing as a percentage share is declining. And that's been a characteristic for many a year. As I said, you will see that pattern in I think Just taking a quick look at the figures.

You see that in every single province in the country that there is manufacturing, as a percentage of the total is smaller . And one ofthe reasons is the service sector !s expanding so rapidly. The jobs are growing there in transportation , finance, personal services and so on. So while I regret that, the only consolation I have is to say that what's happening here isn't as bad . In some cases it's worse than other cases, but it's not out of line with what's happening in Canada as a whole . MRS. C. OLESON: In 3.(c), Immigration and Settlement Services, on page 39 of the Supplementary Estimates , I would quote "(

d) To achieve immigration levels in keeping with labour market and humanitarian objectives." What role does this department play in ... immigration? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, under the BNA Act, the British North America Act, the Federal Government is to consult the provinces on matters pertaining to immigration. So we do receive correspondence from time to time from the Federal Minister asking for opinions on levels of immigration and other general policy matters . And we from time to time offer the advice as requested . However, the Federal Government doesn't have to listen to us, but we do offer comments .

I met with the Honourable Gerry Weiner a couple of months ago, the Minister of Immigration, and we had general discussions regarding refugees and immigration levels and general policies and had very positive discussion. And we do correspond with him and Mr. Bouchard , the Federal Minister of Employment and Immigration . But the key point is that while the government, I guess, is willing to listen, they're listening to all 10 provinces, so I can't say that our advice is always taken . MRS. C. OLESON: At least it's asked for anyway.

Does the Minister then suggest or set numbers, suggest numbers, for instance, that he would feel would be Manitoba's share? HON. L. EVANS: Normally the Federal Government sets down some targets, some levels and we end up commenting on our share of that . It's usually a middle course, usually a moderate course . As a lot of people have been saying now , given the democratic factors in Canada, we may have a shrink ing po~ulation. People are talking about the need for more immigration and so on but , generally speaking, we tend to react to the major issues of the Federal Government.

That 's the way it's been for some many a year. MRS. C. OLESON: Under Regional Employment Services , Southern Employment Services, on page 45 of the Supplementary Estimate Book, one of the activities of this area is to: "Provide regional delivery of the new Community Places programs funded." Does this mean that the department still does all the evaluation of applications and all clerical work involved with the program which replaced Community Assets, even though it is in the Department of Culture Heritage and Recreation? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, we're involved to the extent that our staff receive applications and work with the applicants in the field1 determining that certain information is correct , verifying it and sitting down with the individual if there are any problems in lack of data or whatever . So, that 's at the field level, but that information is then passed on to the Department of Culture , Heritage and Recreation where the central administrative function takes place .

So we are simply delivering this as a service, because the field staff have had experience in this and in the past have done a good job. · Well, I know it runs the staff off their feet sometimes ; to say the least . We're doing this as a service to the 2819

Monday, 8 June, 1987 Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation or we did it this past year. But we don't have the funds for it, the funding is in the other department. We're simply using the existing field staff which I think is an efficient move on the part of the government . MRS. C. OLESON: So this department , this Minister doesn't make the decisions of who is to get the funding . That's in the Department of Cultural Affairs. t HON. L. EVANS: Ultimately, the final decisions are made by Cabinet. There is a Cabinet committee, as has been explained .

I'm a member of the committee but the department per se does not make the decisions . We simply do the receiving of applications in the field , the initial vetting of the applications , as I explained , the normal processing that has to go on. I find that sometimes you don't get enough information on the forms. You have to go back and check with the organizations, etc ., etc. But then those applications are forwarded to the Department of Culture , Heritage and Recreation, and the administrative work then is centralized there and is funnelled through that department. MRS. C.

OLESON: So, the administrative costs are still in this department? HON. L. EVANS: Actually, there are no additional administrative costs to the government because what we're doing is really using our field staff who are in the business of running Careerstart , Training for Tomorrow and some of these other programs . They're taking this on at the moment as an add-on. We're doing it to try to be as efficient as possible, not to add staff to Culture, Heritage and Recreation, to try to do it with our existing complement.

I know in some offices it has caused a lot of extra overtime and a lot of hard work, a lot of weekend work , a lot of night work and so on to deliver it because we've got these timetables . So there are no additional costs . They're just the normal costs that we incur by having those field offices. MRS. C. OLESON: I didn 't really mean additional costs . I just meant that the administration costs are still in this department as opposed to having been transferred to Cultural Affairs . HON. L.

EVANS: Well, essentially - I should explain this ; it's a good point - some of the administrative staff that we had in the department on this program were transferred to the Department of Culture , Heritage and Recreation. So those people are not represented here; they're in the other department . So that's gone. MRS. C.

OLESON: Human Resources Opportunity Program, on page 49 of the Supplementary Estimates , it talks about number of persons expected to be served is 2,500 for the Human Resources Opportunity Program, 1,400 for the Human Resources Opportunity Centres and 700 under the Single Parent Job Access Program . Are most of these people targeted to be helped by this program on social assistance? HON. L. EVANS: Most of them are on social assistance, not all but most of them . MRS. · C. OLESON: The program is very labour­ intensive. Can the Minister explain why?

It's probably someth ing to do with their role in the way they help people , but I would just like an explanation . HON. L. EVANS: I should say this at the outset that, some years ago, all the work by the clients and all the training was done in, what I would say, the workshop on site , sometimes referred to as sheltered workshop site .

What we did a few years ago is bring in the work experience technique , if you will, whereby we were able to bring on more clients, help more clients in a relatively more efficient way, relatively cheaper way, because we were saying we were going to place people in real jobs out in the community - small business , non-profit organizations and so on - that we would rely on those establishments , those businesses, those non-profit to do the training .

We would continue to do the pre-employment counselling, maybe some initial life skills training and so on, but the actual training would be on the job and we would get help from the employer . Mind you, the employer gets the free labour. So there's a mutually beneficial pattern here. By doing that , we've been able to increase the number of people we're helping without increasing the capital costs . They tend to be labour-intensive . That is true . But these, if you go back through the years, you'll see the number of people helped has gone up substantially.

The other advantage is - I know the Member for Gladstone will be pleased and interested in that - by taking this approach of work experience, we can provide jobs away from the site. Under the old system, you had to come to Brandon. For instance, if you're talking about the Westbran project, you had to come there. You may have come from Glenboro, but you had to stay and work in Brandon and so on. Under this new approach, we can actually have positions in Minnedosa , Neepawa , Glenboro, Killarney, using Westbran as an example. So that does happen.

I don't have the figures on that, but I can tell you that the jobs are spotted in various communities. The centres have done fairly well and we are using them , as the member knows, to take on this Single Parent Job Access, because we did it on a pilot project in Winnipeg and Brandon a year ago and it worked well. So now we are carrying on with this new money and we're quite hopeful that it is working well . MRS. C. OLESON: ~re there any referrals from municipal welfare rolls? 1 ·HON.

L EVANS: Yes, for municipalities and some other in Winnipeg, a lot of social service agencies may refer, but the municipal government certainly, because they're dealing with the unemployed employables . MRS. C. OLESON: Has the Minister any figures on how many who are served by this program actually leave the welfare rolls, for instance, if t.hat's where they came from and have permanent jobs? HON. L. EVANS: I can give you an overall estimate for the 1986-87 year. 2820

_______________ M_o_n_d_a_y,_,_B_J_u_n_e_, _19_8_7 ______________ , I At the beginning of the year, we had 382 people registered; during the year, we took in 1,089, so the total served was 1,471. Then this breaks down into different - 754, roughly half of them , were trained on the site; then 585 were placed in community-based work experience jobs; and then there were 167 on various special programs . Some of this was for summer programs, what's called the Job Club . It's another type of a training program .

At any rate, to get down to the bottom line, to answer the member 's question, 549 of those went into jobs or went on to further training . Like, some go on to Assiniboine College or whatever. MRS. C. OLESON: The Single Parent Job Access Program, how many people were trained under the pilot project in 1986-87 and what was the cost? HON. L EVANS: The Single Parent Job Access pilot project, we had 288 taken in. I'll just give these by way of percentages. It's probably the best way to describe it.

I'll just round this off, 39 percent were successful and entered employment, so 39 percent got jobs; 24 percent went on to other training . Then about 9 percent, at the time of this being compiled, were waiting to get into a training program. Then 7.7 percent or about 8 percent are waiting to either get employment or .some work experience . So we figure roughly 79 percent or 80 percent have been successful under this program . We can never expect 100 percent success.

In some cases, these people have a lot of additional problems and sometimes there are other things that may occur during the lives of these people, so you could never expect 100 percent. It could be illness, for example, just to use one little example, or some other change in the family situation. MRS. C. OLESON: The funds for this program, $3 million I believe the Minister mentioned in his statement, is that money taken out of the social assistance budget or is it in addition to the social assistance budget? HON. L.

EVANS: If the member's talking about this year's budget as opposed to the pilot project, we added monies on the employment side but we expect to save it on the welfare side, on social assistance. Ultimately, if this program is successful, we expect it really to cost us no money, at least as far as the single parent, at least as far as that part's concerned. Ultimately, if we are successful, we will save money within a couple of years. MRS. C. OLESON: And these people also who go into this program could come from the municipal rolls as well.

There is cooperation between the municipalities and the department on this. Work Activity Projects, on page 56 of the task force report, there's reference to a c.ollection of information regarding training projects but not reporting it.. As an example, one of the questions they'd asked is what was happening to the graduates of these programs and do they maintain their employment and for how long.

The quotation I'm thinking of from that page of the task force r:eport said, and I quote: "It is alarming that a program with a projected 1982-83 budget of $4.1 million does not endeavour more routinely to answer J .,1•.:·· these questions ." Are studies now done as a result of ·,,, that notation in that report? •::~ ::tJ HON. L. EVANS: To clarify, Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I ,.1·• believe the member is talking about a quotation from ;\ ; the Ryant Task Force on Social Assistance and, when ;,; . you're talking about work activity projects, that's the ~ old name of the Human Resource Opportunity Centres. :;. • They used to be called work activity projects, but they ~ji chaaged the;,"=• abo"1 th= oc too, yeacs ago . j .. -~• MRS. C. OLESON: But is there any follow-up? I l HON. L. EVANS: Oh, yeah. Well, like the numbers I was just giving you here from '86-87, we said that there were 549 people placed in jobs or went on to further training . There's an array of these.

I don't understand that quotation because - I certainly know today - there's an array , there are tons of statistics on this by each centre . We get monthly reports. There's all kinds of information available. "' J MRS. C. OLESON: I think one of the things they were focusing on is how long does this employment last. Like , if you had statistics that say that so many were employed, but how long were they employed is one of ~ ...... the points they were trying to make. j ·; HON. L.

EVANS: There is a real problem here because individuals live in a free society and, while we have records of those going on to jobs, it's dependent no matter how long we could continue to follow up, how many months - we can't say for sure a year from now or so that they're still working, but I think we try to follow up for about three months anyway when they leave the Human Resource Opportunity Centres, for about three months. Generally, under the Diversion Fund Program that we're talking of, there are monies to do some research on the success of the program. This is something we'd want to monitor very closely.

MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. With your computer program, you'd be able to tell quite quickly if they came back on the welfare rolls if they had been on within the last shoft while anyway. So that will probably help you with that sort of information. On page 51 of the Supplementary Estimates, there's a reference to labour implications of plant closures and technological change, etc . Can the Minister tell us what plant closures this department has been involved in and what was the involvement? HON. L. EVANS: The fewer, the better of course, Mr.

Deputy Chairman. · The major one we've been involved with was Canada Packers. We have provided some funding for a committee . There was a committee set up jointly by the Federal and Provincial Governments and the company to deal with the displaced workers - those are the people laid off by Canada Packers - so we provided some monies to this committee, as did the Federal Government , as did the company. The three l '1i.··• t .t. ,i<l lt -~l :il ,l '! l ] I ~ 2821 I 01:ii

Monday, 8 June, 1987 parties put monies into this investment committee, and we also provided some staff to help get their office organized. So that's one example. Also we've had some experience working with the Versatile Company. There are others, LGD of Grahamdale and there is another one here where we're involved in some retraining costs . We've been invited to participate in some other companies, but we haven 't yet decided whether we should get into those. But there are about seveq that I could refer to as of April 30, 1987. The biggest one, as I can recall , is the Canada Packers. MRS. C.

OLESON: What sort of funding was involved with Canada Packers? HON. L. EVANS: Okay, Mr. Deputy Chairman . The initial grant was $20,000, which was to help defray the costs incurred by the committee . The committee's function was to set up this office which was to help the workers find other jobs, help them being placed. MRS. C. OLESON: That committee office would be involved in other plant closures then . You wouldn't set up an office for each one? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, that office was strictly for Canada Packers because it was financed by the company, Canada Packers, and the Department of Employment and Immigration as well as ourselves, so it was tripartite for that particular problem . Mr. Deputy Chairman, I might point out, it was a large layoff that involved 275 people . Of course once, at a certain point of time, that office will simply close . When the job is done .. . MRS. C. OLESON: When they get everybody back to work, they'll close . The Selkirk Training Plant, would the layoffs at the steel mill have any impact at all on this program?

Do t_he people who are trained in this , have they historically got jobs with that mill or is there a connection? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I don't believe there is really any connection . Selkirk Training Plant is essentially a woodworking plant. MRS. C. OLESON: Oh, okay. HON. L. EVANS: I'm sorry, it's woodworking and metal, but it's mainly small fabrication. There is really no connection. MRS. C. OLESON: Okay. How many people were trained at that training plant last year, and how many permanent jobs resulted from the training? HON. L.

EVANS: Last year, '86-87, there were 100 people accepted as trainees. Twenty-six of them went on to employment during the year, eight went on to further employment, and that's it. These are people who again are disadvantaged through whatever reason, and we often deal with some fairly hard-core unemployed people in these centres. But basically the plant seems to be well run and it has helped a number of people over the years . This year, it is anticipated that the number of trainees will .be slightly higher, 105.

We anticipate a good one-third of those to get jobs and another small number to go onto further training. MRS. C. OLESON: The Minister alluded to it, but is the criteria for this program that you must be on social assistance, or can others also be involved in this training? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Deputy Chairman, in this category some of them are on welfare, but also we will accept some on unemployment insurance, if they've been out of work for at least 24 weeks . MRS. C. OLESON: And the Stevenson Aviation Training, there 's a reduction in funding . Does this reflect fewer applicants to the program? HON. L.

EVANS: We looked at this and we felt that it could be operated at a slightly lower level and it was part of the budget cutback exercise that we went into . It's doing a good job, but we felt that it could be scaled down a bit . MRS. C. OLESON: Is the criteria to this program similar to the Selkirk one, where there are unemployed and social assistance, or is there a different criteria for entry to this program? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there is a different criteria . This is in response to a need of communities in Northern Manitoba.

There is a need for people who can maintain aircraft in remote communities, in particular . So what we're doing is bringing people, in many cases I guess from Northern Manitoba, not entirely , but people who normally would go out to these remote communities and provide aircraft maintenance in those areas. But at any rate, even though there 's been a reduction, I understand that the centre can maintain existing levels of training but will restrict any expansion or new program developments . So there's been a bit of a scaling back .

In setting this program up, we have worked with a number of people including Winnipeg Aerospace Manufacturers and even some out-of-province regional air service companies in Saskatchewan and Ontario. But generally, we think that the size and the nature of the reductions are fairly minimal and we should be able to maintain the existing apprenticeship activity through this centre . MRS. C. OLESON: I see I had STEP program - it must have been two places in my notes - but I think I'm out of step · with the STEP program right here, but anyway we mentioned before that there was a reduction.

How many jobs were there in the STEP program last year? HON. L. EVANS: The number of positions approved last year was 863, and the number this year was 470 . MRS. C. OLESON: It was just a matter of reduction, there wasn't a decrease in demand for the program was there , it was just a matter of trying to cut down. 2822

Monday, 8 June, 1987 HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman , every department, because the government has been experiencing considerable deficits for some years, all depart _ments have been trying to scale down, tighten and so on. This is a good program but no one would like tQ see it scaled down , but this was one area we thought we could, at least for this year. . The other point I woulcl n,ake, however, there are still departments who have their own budgeted positions . There has been some increase on that side to take up a bit of the slack .

In other words, STEP provides jobs for all departments; we are the coordinating body. But in addition, there are still some departmental-funded positions for the young people in the summer, and that's . been i1wreased a bit to partly take up. On the positive side of this i.s that there has been a fairly significant improvement in the unemployment of young people.

If you just take . the figures that were made available on Friday from Statistics Camida, the percentage . unemployed for those under 25 - Statis .tics Canada uses the years 15 to 24 - most of t_hem would be older teenagers, I suppose, and early 20's , but last year, May 1986, ther.e were 13.6 percent unemployed in this category and this year - these are the actual figures - it was down to 11 percent. So that's for both male and female. ·If you look at the women, there's really b~n a dramatic improvement. L.ast year, last May there, were 12.5 percent unemployed and this May it was down to 8 percent .

But I would think that if - and there has been a trend evident for some months now of improving unemployment among the youth, so there is some rationale to say, okay, these programs were designed actually when unemployment was sort of rising and governments were trying to respond to them . I think it's fair to say that, if the situation improves, it is rational to cut back at that time, because you should be prepared if it gets worse to add some money. So if you're ever going to cut , this is the time . MRS. C. OLESON: What are the wages paid to students in that program? HON. L.

EVANS: The salary scale in 1987-88 varies depending on which level; there are four levels. In terms of the hourly rate, Level 1 is $4.50 an hour; Level 2.is $5.13; Level 3 is $5.75 ; and Level 4 is $6.37. Now this will go up for those who are still working after September 1, because there's an adjustment upwards in the minimum wage . So as of September 1, Level 1 will go up 20 cents . In fact, they'll all go up by 20 cents . So it'll read then $4.70, $5.33, $5.95 and $6.57. MAS. C. OLESON: What do the levels reflect? The type of job, Qr the education of the student? · HON. L: EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, yes, both experience and level of skill . MAS. C. OLESON: I think that's all I have in that area, Mr. Chairman. I think we could pass that. M~. CHAIRMAN: Can you pass all of 3. then? Are you done with all of 3.? MRS. C. OLESON: I think so. I'll think of more questions tomorrow likely. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Just excuse me. My Clerk has just left - if I can find the resolutions here . 3.(aX1) to 3.(6Xb), inclusive, were each read and passed. Resolution No. 57: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $14,956,200 for .

Employment Services and Economic Security, Employment Services, for the fiscal year ending the " 31st day of March, 1988-pass . We are now dealing with Appropriate No. 4., Manitoba Bureau of Statistics . We'll begin with (

a) Salaries - the Member for Gladstone . MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have many questions in this department, but I did notice that it was being scaled down somewhat. For instance, from 1984-88, it decreased by about 37.1 percent. Are other departments taking over the function of this department, or what is the reason for this? HON. L. EVANS: No, I don 't think you could say other departments are taking over the function, but there were some services offered that we scaled down on, we reduced .

It's a judgmental call, but again it's part and parcel of the government trying to be as efficient as possible and trying to scale down the spending as much as we can. So what the bureau is doing is concentrating as much as possible on the original data development and analysis and, to that extent, it puts out a number of ::,1 reports and offers a number of s.ervices on original 1;~:~i ::"::: ::::":,: :• M::;::::~:,::o:: •I·.:,, __ -_" providing them and that gives you an overall framework .• of the economy of the province and other economic statistics that are original.

They are not a duplicate of ·,.'.·_· what Statistics Canada is doing. So they essentially cut back on anything that even remotely seemed like a duplication . MRS. C. OLESON: This department sells information to other departments and other outside agencies. Is there a reduction in sales of information from this depa rtment? HON. L. EVANS:-, Well, I guess when you have to pay for something, it's always a bit of a deterrent as opposed to getting a report free of charge. I don 't know whether we have the quantities on the numbers of reports distributed, but we do have recoveries .

We did recover $68,600 net in 1986-87. ,. I guess you asked the number of reports and so on. t i 1 i ~ What I've got here is the column of the reports put ;! out to different people and it varies, but I don't know I whether I have the questions to compare with last year. i We have all kinds of statistics here on different reports , on various topics here. ·i Key monthly indicators _ and population statistics and _\lll_:< Manitoba statistical review are purchased by different ·'ll · people, but I don't know how it compares with last year. I would 'imagine it would be down a bit because 2823 ~ ,j I

Monday, 8 June, 1987 people do have to pay for it. What we find , particularly among the government departments , is that they begin to share reports and then they photostat . MRS. C. OLESON: Yes, I was going to say it's proportional to the number of photocopy mach ines there are in the building . HON. L. EVANS: Yes, that's not fair, you know. We do all the work and we dWJ't get paid enough. MRS. C. OLESON: I think we can pass this area. MR. CHAIRMAN: Appropriation No. 4., Manitoba Bureau of Statistics , Salaries (a)- pass; (b)- pass; (c)­ pass.

Resolution No. 58: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty , a sum not exceeding $375,500 for Employment Services and Economic Security, Manitoba Bureau of Statistics , for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1988-pass . MRS. C. OLESON: Just a minute, what are you doing? We are talking about the Bureau of Statistics , No. 4. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, No. 4. MRS. C. OLESON: I didn 't want you to pass No. 1. without me passing another comment . That's all I'm worried about. MR. CHAIRMAN : I'll read Resolution No. 58 again just to make sure Hansard has got it right.

Resolution 58: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $375,500 for Employment Services and Economic Security, Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1988 - pass. Now we go back to 1., Administration and Finance , (

a) Minister's Salary - the Member for Gladstone . MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I believe in my opening remarks, I stated that I was going to give some figures about Canadian comparisons of Social Allowances, and I have a report done by the Alberta Department of Social Services and Community Health, and I think I did neglect to mention that under Economic Security . However, I have this chart that I'll give the Minister a copy. It does give a good picture of Canada as a whole for social assistance. But it doesn't do us very proud in our rank in the western provinces.

For instance, for single parent , one child of seven years, we are the lowest in the western provinces. For two parents, one child of seven years, we are the second-lowest in the western provinces, and it goes on. We're either the lowest or the second-lowest in most categories of social assistance in the western prov inces. So I'll just provide the Minister with a copy of that . As I say, I neglected to do so when we were doing the Economic Security part and I had mentioned in my opening remarks that I was going to do that, so I wanted to keep that promise .

And I asked him about the audit, so I don 't need to pay any attention to that note in my notes. I just wanted to wrap up by making a few comments on the puzzle in my mind of the ever-increasing welfare rolls and all the money we've talked about just now in tra ining programs. We also talked abou 'i the unemployment picture in Manitoba , which isn't all that bad . It's not of course acceptable; we never would like to see large numbers of unemp loyed , we would like to see zero . We'll never get to zero, but we can always try.

But with welfare rolel projected to go up 10.9 percent munic ipally and 13.1 percent provincially, we wonder what is happening when we're spending all these dollars on training. We're creating programs to help the unemployed, we're creating programs to train them , to provide them with jobs , but somehow the welfare rolls are still continuing to rise. And somewhere it should follow that , i f you're doing all these things and you 're doing them well, you're doing them right , they should have some effect on the welfare rolls . They should be decreasing , there should be some correlation .

For instance, if the municipal welfare rolls are grow ing, these employable unemployed are part of the unemployment picture obviously , so it's not very encouraging . We wonder where the government 's going wrong , if they're going wrong , in what they're doing if we can 't see any effect on employment , a more major effect on unemployment and a major effect on the welfare rolls.

Society has the right to expect that people will make a reasonable effort to be self-supporting, and we wonder if the government is encouraging this, encouraging people to be self-supporting , or are we creating an atmosphere of enforced dependency on welfare? If we managed the system and manage people to the extent of their decision making and give them a limited self-identity and encourage dependency on the system so we wonder, as I say, I wonder again, how we are encouraging people, how this government is encourag ing people to take

part in the training programs, to take

part in the job search programs that this government is providing . Are we encouraging them at all? Is the government able to, through its field services, counsel people? The Minister says that the major increase in welfare rolls is single parents . Are these people being counselled to go onto the welfare rolls or are they being counselled to try and find some employment, some training? Are they encouraged to even do both, to just be on a partial welfare and trade?

Are they being steered to help get day care, for Instance , while they do these training programs? ·Are the field staff trained well eno.ugh in counselling to suggest to these people the methods by which they could find employment , the methods in looking for day care? Perhaps some of these people are not aware of what is available if they did find work . So that may be part of the problem . The money that we're spending seems to be getting higher every year on training programs and we seem to be losing ground.

We're hoping that we see results fairly soon in the millions of dollars that have been spent on training programs. Another area that I would like to mention before we wrap this up Is the disabled. I get a lot of phone calls in my office from disabled people who are on social assistance . We talked about the CPP benefits, about the Orphan 's benefits and so forth , but the people who 2824

_______________ M_o_n_d_a_cy,_, _B_J_u_n..;.e_, _1_98_7_· -------------- ' HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the membe( 11 for her remarks . I'll certainly take them under \x, advisement. She takes a very conscientious approach .,; to the department, which I appreciate, and I think she . has realized, after spending a couple Of years on this, ". that's it's a very difficult area because it's sometimes are unemployably disabled are having a very difficult time through no fault of their own. They haven't .got a choice of whether they can work or not . I'm not saying that no disabled people can work .

That's certainly not what I'm saying, because some of. them do hold down jobs and some of them need a little bit of assistance in training and so forth to f!nd an altemate job fr-0m what they had when they became disab led, for instance. I'm wondering if the Minister has ever considered changing the way in which we deliver social assistance to the disabled unemployable . They are put in altogether, as far as I see it, the people on social assistance are all treated pretty well the same.

Is there some way we could have a category for disabled who didn' ·t need the same kind of services from -their field staff as what employable or soon to be employed people need? For instance, -I'm told by people who are in this situation that the field staff - and ·they perceive it as harassing - harass them for medical reports when there's no earthly way that their medical report would change anything . A person who is blind, there is not about to be any change in their medical situation .

It might save field staff time if there was a separate category and they didn't need to make visits as often, say, as they do to check up on employable or soon to be employed people. I just have a feeling that there could be a great deal of benefit to some of the disabled clients by a change in the method of delivery, and I wonder if the Minister has ever thought of this . As I say, I have a lot of these people phoning me and they complain a great deal to do with the department. Some of it is valid , and of course some of it is a misunderstanding, I think, on the part of both sides.

I've had a call from people who have been asked to move because they are in too expensive an apartment, and the person is not able to walk and perceives a very great deal of difficulty in going on an apartment search. I can see where that person would be upset by being, first of all, asked to be moving and then asked to be physically moving their goods and chattels with them . So I thought I would raise that with the Minister in the hope that he's taking a look at it to see if there is some better way of delivering social assistance to the disabled . I have enjoyed the Estimates process.

I think we've covered pretty well most of the department and , as I said at the outset, we may not have covered it all, but there are time constraints . I have pointed out to the Minister the problems with the municipal assistance, and I hope that he has a look at that area .of his department and sees if he can be of some assistance to the municipal officials in such ·a way as the main item that I think came out of all my letters that I got from municipal officials was a lack of communication and a lack of knowledge on their part as exactly how they could serve their people .

They're, for the most part, eager to learn about this and to help the people . They don't feel they're doing a good job and I don't think it would cost the department; I'm not asking them to run out and spend a lot of money. All I'm asking is them to · find some way to communicate . I think that would be important.

I'd like to thank the Minister and staff for providing me with the answers to most of my questions ,"and I look forward to going through this again next year. a no-win area, especially in the welfare side because )'. you 're damned if you do, you're damned if you don 't. •1 Some people think you're paying out too much money, i being too easy, and other people think you're not paying _': • enough. · I just wanted to say that we hope to put more effort into the employment of single parents. Under the federal-provincial agreement , we can handle 600 this -~i year.

What we've seen from the pilot project , it seems '.;~ to be successful , and I would like to see us put a little ·,,. ~ more money into that if we can. But we will be reviewing· .­ it later this year and discussing this with the Federal Government as to whether we should go a little higher .. I was in Brandon last Friday at the Westbran project and I met some of the young women, and I was very, very impressed . I wish the member had been there. It's very impressive, because some of these women had the course, had gone on to jobs and still had the jobs - some good jobs.

But at any rate, we should do more in that area. I agree with the member in that respect . On using the disabled as a special component, the problem is that welfare is an income program of last resort. We don't like to discriminate. We say, you need .. •Iia··•. so much for food or so much for clothing and so on. ~.ll On the other hand, there is the special needs category •j which isn't limited to 150, and we indeed do pay more ;j monies if it is necessary for a special diet.

If the doctor says you need a special diet , we will pay more monies '.'I, for that; we will pay more monies for medical equipment , 'ltA etc . We feel that the best approach is to have this j universal project. Indeed, some provinces do have a J_•·. different category for the disabled, and they may pay ;4 a few extra dollars for the physically disabled perhaps. 4 We have thought about it, but it's a matter of being ·~ equitable to everyone.

Thus far, we've stayed to a standard rate of welfare assistance, but keeping in mind .~ that people are people and they have individual needs and we should try to meet those needs as much as ~ possible . , If the member does have any cases of unwarranted ,J hardship or where you think there's something that should be -examined, I'd certainly be pleased to look ~ into it because we're not perfect.

While I hope the staff !l are being fairly reasonable and generous in their approach , there are cases where sometimes we do have " to review and maybe change where it's warranted. ~ But as I said , it's a very difficult area. There are some 1 changes that have taken place; there will be indeed fl more changes and more improvements in the future. I agree with the member that our ~ates are not the highest by any means in Western Cimada, if indeed even among some of the eastern provinces .

The only thing I can say on the other side is that the cost of living is a bit lower here and our wages are usually lower than in the provinces to . the west of us. But be that as it may, I would appreciate the support of the member in the future as we try and get a better deal, so thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 55: Resolved that there · be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 2825

Monday, 8 June, 1987 $2,789,200 for Employment Services and Economic Security, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1988-pass . That concludes the Estimates of the Minister, and we will now adjourn and the committee shall rise. SUPPLY - BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: We will now begin the Committee · of Business Development and Tourism. Mr. Minister - Mrs. Minister, do you have a statement? HON. M. HEMPHILL: I'm neither Mr. nor Mrs. MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Minister. The Minister of Tourism. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I have a very short one, Mr.

Chairman, because I recognize that we have not allocated a tremendous amount of time for these Estimates, and I don't want to take up an unnecessary part of that in posturing with a speech, which I'm sure the Member for Portage la Prairie will appreciate. Actually, I thought the first three hours I could talk about -(Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, I do want to touch on just a few highlights though in terms of the business climate in Manitoba, and in terms of the activities of our department.

I think that probably one of the most important things to recognize, that is a clear indication of the stability of the Manitoba economy and the importance of the small business sector in that economy. The increases and improvements in small business starts show in the figures that tell us that we had 10,000 new business registrations in Manitoba during 1986. It was the highest number ever recorded , and it gives us an increase of a 5.5 percent over 1985. Probably a little more importantly is that Manitoba's net business formation rate has been higher than the Canadian average since 1981.

This rate, which is the difference between starts and closures, was 6.5 percent In mid-1985 compared to Canada's average of 4.9 percent. The latest available data for '86 shows us having 44,660 establishments, which gives us a 9 percent increase over 1985. What we're showing there, as we are with many other economic indicators, Mr. Chairman, is that Manitoba is ahead of the nation in many of these statistics . One of the examples is the net business formation rate . We know how important it is to our provincial economy.

We know that most of the jobs that are created , are created in a small business sector, and that my department is working to help in the area of entrepreneurial activity with small business starts, new products and services. Rural and remote and northern areas are rece iving priority from my department . The Venture Capital Program, I think, continues to be an important program. Our new Manufacturing Adaptation Program is one that we hope will begin to address some of the problems that we're all facing in the manufacturing sector.

To date in 1986, 80 projects have received support under our program initiatives, which resulted in 600 jobs being created or saved and $25 million in new capital investment. We expect to maintain the same level of activity in the coming year. We've made a number of changes to the Venture Capital Program that I will describe in detail when we get to that section. Our Regional Development Corporations are, I think, working very effectively in their communities, and we're getting very good response from our Regional Development Centres and the businesses that they are serving.

Between the six operating RDC's, Northern and Remote Community Development, Core Area, we have a lot of focus and attention on rural and northern and remote areas. The Winnipeg, Brandon and Dauphin Business Centres contribute towards fostering the growth and development of small businesses in those communities and actually help to serve in the regions too . The centre has responded to 14,000 inquiries for business information and counselling. We've held 115 different seminars , courses and workshops throughout the province on different topics relating to operating and managing a small business.

We have a comprehensive video library on 50 topics , and the Rural Counselling Program is offered in three communities with over 80 participating small business clients. The Masters in Business Administration Program is providing support to 25 Manitoba companies in a variety of consulting assignments . The Manitoba Marketing Network is providing very valuable resource from the private sector to the business community and is an excellent example, I think, of cooperation between the department, the private sector, and those people who need assistance. Just in terms of a very short

summary, Mr. Chairman, I would say that the Manitoba economy is one of the most stable in the country. All of the indicators suggest to us that this is going to continue to be so, and that we expect that the small business component of our economy is going to continue to be one of the vibrant active sectors continuing to provide increases to the economy and increases in jobs to Manitobans. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, the Minister of Tourism. The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is my intention to show 10 the people of Manitoba through the news media that the business climate in Manitoba is in serious deterioration. It is through the private business sector that we must create jobs, jobs that are not a burden on the taxpayers of this province . It is through the private business sector that we will generate the wealth to pay for all of our social programs, programs like health and education that we are proud of and fortunate enough to have.

It is the private sector, through job and wealth creation, that will eliminate deficits and pay back the $9 billion or so that we are currently in debt for. We have already been through the Estimates of IT and T. It is obvious that the Minister there does not have much of an inkling on how to preserve or to save business, much less lure new industries to this province. There will be no salvation of this province through the short-fused and arrogant but incompetent Minister of Industry Trade and Technology. So we look to this Minister and the Department of Business Development and Tourism , and what do we 2826

Monday, 8 June, 19&7 have? We have a charming, pretty and vivacious lady with absolutely no credentials to run her department . To my knowledge , she has never been in business, has never gambled in investing her money, nor has she created a job. Mr. Chairman, the Minister, in 011e of her magazines; lists her reasons for being capable to be the Minister of Business Development, has said my Cabinet p9s.ition as Education Minister gave me tremendous experience in running a big system, actually a big business .

I managed budgets of up to $850 million, negotiated dozens of contracts for 3 to 200,000 employees and was responsible for capital construction projects . So when she said to the banquet of the Chamber of Commerce that her ability to be Minister was because she had wrote big cheques of the Department of Education, there was a quiet groan and they were quite upset that this would be the criteria that would allow one to be the Minister of Business Development . This Minister was a disaster as the Education Minister and had to be removed .

We wonder how long it will take for the First Minister to realize that he has made a mistake or a blunder of colossal magnitude. This Minister is great at bafflegabbing and always says things are going great. We will debate the stats that she has . When I brought up the number of bankruptcies versus the number of new business starts, the Minister does question these statistics. We got ours from the corporation sector and the other ones from the Federal Business Development Bank. We feel that they're reliable people , but I'm still prepared to take a look at figures the Minister has.

We'll compare them and we'll see, but we know that the number of -business starts has not been comparable to the number of bankruptcies, so the l\:/linister is giving a very glossy, nice picture but the picture isn't true . It is we, she says, who are negative for criticizing her ministry. Well this Minister will never · be able to give guidance to this department, nor will she be able to influence the government to ·take action to reinstall confidence in the business community in this province . I have one here, Mr. Chairman, was that Hemphill promises a review of payroll tax .

She said the payroll tax was one of the real bugbears tha