Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, June 6, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 23

June (is 1972 Tnpc 545 (Night) JH - l The House resumed 0.t S:OD P .tL Hr. Sneaker in the Chw.ir. Order please! HEADING \.'11 - Jt7STICE: On 701(01), Hr. Chairman, for the past successive several days I have been trying to get a fou remarks in but unfortunately :i.t has been so late in the afternoon thnt I have not heen able to finish them.

I hove made some reference to the fact that the Executive Assistant of the honourable Minister of Justice is be l n1; paid S 12, OiJO a year which is a specia 1 (;Xe.cu ti ve ass 1st ant. a nolitical appointment and t use the term political not in a <lcroratory sense. a political appointment of the minister is heinv paid $12.000 a year which is n. somewhat inflnted snlary for a politicn1 nppnintnenta I do not cnre how well r1trnlific.d the gentlem:in is.

If he were a rncnhcr of the cstahlishcd puhlic service thnt would he one thing hut to pny a man 312,000 :1 vear of public money to look after some of the political duties 0f the minister is ~oinp: a bit for in my estimation cspccially,as I mentioned last time,when you realize that members of this House who are elected by the people in a political capacity gets $6,fiDO a year by Hay of sessiona.1 indemnity and $3,300 n yenr for expenses. t ·just touch on that again. Mr. Chairman. I .:.1.so touched on the fact that during my short hut nleasant stay as acting Minister of Justice som0 months ar-.o,.

I asked the Minister of JusticP in Ottnwa, Mr. Turner, to take into consideration the appointment of a fifth suprene court imh1e for this province to reside and hold court in Corner Brook. I would like to hear the minister's cor:.1ments on that. I also mentioned the f;Ft that we asked Mr. Turner to consider and if favourable consideration could be given,to instruct his officials to meet with our officials 1666

June 6. 1972 Tape 545 (Nipht) to talk in terms of lerislation which might be necessary to set up a separate appeal court in the province.an appeal court separate from the existinl? Supreme court p,ench so that our system of justice. the administration of _iustice in the province could h2 done n little better. 1 think~ not better because the personnel on the bench voulzl be better but because there should be, as a matter of principle.~ two separate courts, a trial court and an appeal court, two sepnrntc bodies of iudges. I would like to hear the minister on that.

JM ~ 2 Also, of course, the district court where one additional district court i udp.:e was appointed for Trinity Conception recently 1 Mr. Nath Noel/ and T. am sure he will do an excellent ioh indeed.

Also the fact thut T requested, on behalf of the then gnvc.rnm.ent, tbe Minister of Justice to establish two courts, two extra d.istrict courts in Burin~Burgeo nnd Bonnvista-Twillingate, ! think the iudicinl districts :n."e called., r:et two additional rlistrict court iudges there so thrtt access to people who have to ro court. access to court would be less expensive and more efficient and more convenient for them in those p;;rticular areas.

Also the minister might want to rnnl:e some reference on the roval comr:1ission to inquire into the magisterial svstem in the prcvince which vas set up aF,ain during my brief period as actinr: Minister of .J11sticc. Perhaps he cannot say too much on thnt. Hr. Geoffrey SteeJe is actively in•,olved in compiling some recommendations there. I think, Nr. Chairman. but the honourable minister might indicate to the House whethPr he has confirmed the terms of reference, I tldnk publicly he stated that he nid.

Whether the terms of reference are still in effect and any other comments he might want to have on the establishnent of that royal cDnnnission. I alsc mentioned last day in ansuer to some criticism from the Law Society of Newfounrlland that I did not, at least when I was 1667

June 6, 19.72 Tape 545 (Night) acting Minister of Justice,think it sensible or reasonable to set up at that time a royal commission of enquiry into all the aspects of the administration of justice. in the nrovince. ~.Jow there can be a divided opinion on that.

The reason I did not is because in my short period as a minister the experience I have gained shows JM - 3 that when you set up far-reaching royal commissions, royal commissions which are dealinp: with hundreds and hundreds of basic questions which are inevitably of a controversial nature., first of all it takes usually years for such a royal commission to compile some recommendations and submit them to government, yenrs which I think are wasted by and large.

Also, of course, often there are. so Manv controversial matters among all the matters recommended by such a royal commission that such royal commissions do have a tendency to he dropped like hot potatoes and shelved to gather dust for a very long time.

Therefore it was part of my philosophy to single out in the first instance some areas of the administration of iustice in the province and to get royal commissions or other expert commissions set up, expert enquiries set up and to delve into and to make recommendations on various aspects of the administration of _i11stice, for example. the maristerial service in the province, with a view to improving for the people of Newfotmdland that particular service.

Ar,ain I hasten to add, as I dirl at the time it was set up, I hasten to add that this is to be taken as no reflection but rather the reverse, as praise for the magistrates presently on the bench. What twas hopinp, to do would be to improve the service even more than it has been improved over the years and to ask for recommendations from Mr. Steele, the royal commissioner, in that regard. Also I hoped but I 'did not get the opportunity~ I hoped to set up a royal commission on the penitentiary 1 for example,to see 1668

June 6. 1972 Tape 5115 fNi..rrht) JM - 4 whether in this province we -were p.:oing in the rir:ht dtrection with regard to punishment for crines, for pcn~lizntion, peni1ties 0nd the incarceration of people in the province.

Also l hnd hoped to set up a royal commission on the sec:ur:I.tv of the province l:·;\·olving the Newfoundlaml Constnbularv which is restricted to St, ,iohn 1 s and the worY of the RC1P to see what sort of n polic;e force, tJhat kind of a security system we should hnve in the province. whether the RCMP contracts should he carried on, whether we should have our own no lice force throughout the province, whether the RO-IT' should be obliged also, on the instructions from the government. to a.ct in a municipal capacity, that is to enforce munid.pal bylaws, T am sure the minister will hnve somethinp: to say on that ,1s well.

I notice,1 that ! made a mistake last time, 1 mentioned $4 ,DO() for inquests and public inquiries for the mom,mt forp:ettinr that that was merely magisterial inquiries. T notice that in the Department of Finance that there is only $75,000 for royal commissions. public enquiries. Perhaps the minister would like to indicate whether he is going to set up this reneral :royal commission or whether he is goinp; to continue during the next year or so to set up n variety of royal co:mmissions to investig-atc nnd to report on various aspects of the adm:inistrat:ion of "justice.

Also I harely tnuched on, during the last session, the question of lcFal aid in the '!lrovince, Now there seems to be n foelintt afoot, Mr. Chairman, thnt the Government of Canada is going to move into this field very shortly nnd that there is going to be a system of le~al aid not unlike medicarc in certain respects 1669

June 6, 1972 Tape 5f,6. Page 1. where people cannot nfford to obtain legal advice in certain ca.ses of hardship,will have la\eryers applied to them free of charge or for a nominal fee. There is a legal, there is n system of legal aid set up already in the Province, not too satisfactory as the member for Placentia East would be. the first to sayt although he has done yeoman service~ worked like a Trojan on the thing, has come with some very good sound ideac; as to the administration or the instltution really of a system of le~al aid in the Province.

I would also like to say, although my honourable friend the member for Bell Island,from Bell Island 1 might have some words to say on this. That the iaw Society of their own volition and free and without asking for money from the public 1except latterly where the f;overnment of New­ foundland gave a $10,000, then a $25,000 grant freely of their own free spirit and will,without charging clients set up a system of legal aid in the Province in an effort to help those people who cannot afford to retain a lawyer to get legal advice in certain cases. Perhaps the Minister would like to make some comments on that.

I am not sure whether he has stated publicly a commitment he made to the law Society at a meeting we held last summer. I do not J.:now if that was admitted publicly what he in fact committed himself to at that time, with regard to legal aid. I leave that to the Minister. ~fit has not been publicly stated.let him make n public statement on it, at his own convenience.

I will not mention too much about it except to say that there is definitely a great need in the Province for a legal aid system, whether operated under the auspices of the Federal Government or the Provinclal Government or both~ In order to allow people to get legal advice when they need it and when they cannot afford to pay for it. There is also a need for the terms of reference of the present Legal Aid System to be greatly enlarged to take into consideration, for example, matrimonial cases, I do not believe 1670

June 6, 1972. Tape 546 they nre under that now, are they? (inaudible) Page 2. MR.W.ROWE: Rit~ht. Of course that is a step in the rir,ht dirnction but as my honourable friend the Minister of Finn.nee stated lust year in this House - I have no personal experience in this 1 might add - but nobvdy who has not had matrimonial problems can fully contemplate and underGtand the extreme misery that is involved in that type of a legal problem.

Pra,tlcing lawyers who have had occasion to have wives or husbands come to them for separation agreements or for advice or for divorces or for anythingt custody of children, do realize somewhat the extreme misery, ~he :i.ncr-, dihle misfortune there :is when somebody - when two spouses come to separati.on of the ways.

Certainly one cf tht? things that we should not do in this Province :is to make - c9mommC that misery in cases of hardship and money problems so that r>ossibly an equitable solution can :wt he fountl to the prob~ em and people are forced to carry on in their misery because no other way can be found or to resort, as the honourah le Minister of Justice has mentioned a couple of times, to resort to illicit and ft1owned upon types of relationships that nobody likes to see in a society.

Simply because in some cases, certainly in the past because there was no divorce jurisdiction here) and sometimes bv lack of money on the part of both spouses there is no way that they can get legal sanction for a dissolution or divorce or separation that they have entered into on very good grounds. Perhaps the honourable minister would like to make some comment on the terms of reference of the Ler;al Aid system that we have here now as to whether there is contemplated an extension of those terms to take into consideration other cases, for example, matrimonial proble~s, marital problems.

Also Sir, I would like to hear the comments of the Minister of Justice on this wholt• question of the P.,C.H.P. Service Rental Contract, whereby the Government of the Province avails of the services for a fee, 1671

June 6. 1972. Tape 546. Page 3. for a good fee, for a good price, expensive pr:i.ce, avai.ls of the services of that great police agency the R.C.~LP. in this Province,for all communities outside. of St. John's. Perhaps he might like to expand on sone comment he made some rr:ontns or vc.a.:-n ago concerning t:1'..: foe.::: that the Newfoundl cmci Constabulary should be e;:tended to all parts of the Province of Newfound­ land that the R.C.M.P~ Service Rental C:::intrnct should be done away with and the R.C.H.P. then of course only be used in cases of Federal iuris­ diction.

Well, maybe I have. misunderstood it, I understood at the time Mr. Chairman, that the honourable Minister of Justice stated that one of his planks, political planks or one of his parties political planks wns to extend the services of the Newfoundland Constabulary. If I am under a misappreiwnsion in that reganl. 1 1 am sure the Minister of Justice will straighten me out on it-. a,lthough my memory on it is pretty firm Also, I would like to hear the minister 1 s comments on this question already touched on about policing of municipalities.

I referred onie or twice, I have referred letters to the honourable minister from communities, the larger towns in my district, Baie Verte, for example, where they want to have a police officer or RCMP officer whose function it is to enforce municipal regulations. bylaws and other laws of that nature. At the present time they have a very hard job getting their municipal regulations and bylaws enforced.

Perhaps the minister might have some solution to suggest to that problem, whether the Provincial Government~ through the Department of Municipal Affairs 1 will enter into some subsidy _ scheme or whether they are going to leave the cost of this entirely to municipalities concerned or whether the RCMP will be brought into it or what. Also, Sir, and finally in my few brief remarks,at the beginning the minister might want to comment on whether there are any other fire stations contemplated for construction.

I think there is $15,000 provided, I am not sure - that is capital I think - $15,000 for capital for further construction this year. That~ of course 1 would not go very far, Perhapti 1672

June 6, 1972. Tape 546. Page 4. he can suggest or mention to the House whether he: intends to construct other fire stations in St. John's or anywhere else in the Province for that matter during the coming year. That is about "1llt Mr. Chairman, J would like to say at the beginning, As we go down through some of the estimates undoubtedly other questions will arise. MR.WELLS: Mr.

Chairman, one or two brief remarks if I may on the Justice Estimates, particularly with regard to the subject the honourable member for White Bay South spoke about a minute ago when he referred to the Constabulary vis-a-vis the RCMP contract. Here in the Estimates for 1972-73 for the Newfoundland Constabulary will cost approximately $1,800,000 the total rental contract, service rental contract and for the·sundry municipalities naming Corner Brook specifically the cost of the RCMP comes to $3,128,700.

I feel as I have felt for a long tim~,I too would like to hear the minister's comment on this,that it may be time in Newfoundl~-A ~ow to look at the possibility of expanding the Newfoundland Constabulary. Of course it is always a matter of relative costs. They would have to be gone into as I am sure the minister and h1s department will do so or are perhaps doing so. But, I think it would be a good idea for this Province to cnnsider expanding the Newfoundland Constabulary.

It is legally a provincial force at this time, My feeling, I would like very much to see it more than legally a provincial force but in fact a provincial force also, which means of course, or would mean extending its practical jurisdiction outside the houndaries of the City of St. John's. 1 think that is well worth examination, 1673

June 6, 1972, Tape 547, Page 1 ~-~ apb Night. HR. WELLS: *-- - ------ Pr. Chairman 1 not with the idea of immediately putting the constabulary into all the tcn-lns and villages of the province, far from it. But,, I think thatthe idea should be examined, of trying it out, tryinp. out the new systen in some one or two of the larger towns. I am thinkinp. for inst;:mcc of Cornl:r Brook here which shows for the R.C.Y.P. rental contract,if I read it correctly, a sun close to a half million dollars.

If a pilot scheme could not be tried without too much addition.al cost to the province so that we could see how the constabulary as a provincial force might worl-'.1 with a view to its policin~ some of the larger towns, not only in the island part of the province, but in Labrador as well, I would certainly like to hear the minister 1 s comments on that and see if some thoughfhas been or is beinp. given to the possibility. J.fR. HICIO'ft..N: --•-- ---- _,_ C" If I may respond to these notes I tried to take.

The ouestion as to the restructuring of the courts which I think is a very vital one, and I reiterate what the hon. member for White Bay South has said, that this in no wav is to be interpreted as any reflection on the competency of those who occupy the bench at this tine. 'Rather, we are one of two Canadian tirovinces only, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland, without a separate court of appeal.

Two years ago, the T,aw Society set up a committee to look at the administration of justice insofar as it relates to courts and they recommended a trial dicision of five judges, a separate court of appeal of three_ judp:es and also the amending of the Act to provide for the additional district court judges~ In December of 1971, and in January of 1972, the hon. member for White Bay South.in his capacity as Actinp: Minister of Justice, made a formal request of the then 'Minister of Justice,Mr.

Turner, who I hnve no hesitancy in saying is one of the ablest Minister's of Justice Canada has had for a long time, and the only one I can remember in rnv twenty years of practice in law or more who came out of the Hapistrates 1 1674

June 2, 1972, Tape 54 7, Page 2 Night. Court and went into that Portfolio. It was a very desirable thing to see and a pleasant thing to see. Things hnve chanf!_es, so I do not quite know what the situation is rifht now.

But, and I am always rather hesitant to disclose correspondence betwee:n ninisters,without the consent 'Of the minister in the other 1:overnrnent, indicating that he wishes it to become public, hut it wns made very clear by the then TTinister of Justice of Canada, number (1) insofar as amending the Judges Act was concerned to provide for the additional district court ,iudpes, that he was not in a position to say precisely if and when federal legislation would be enacted to accommodate that reouest, With reference to the r.ourt of /u,peal, he :)Dinted out that it is, of course,a federal concern to anpoint and p:.y the jndp:es for "the new courts.

But, as I suspected he would. pointed 011t that the doubl:fny of the number of superior court _iudl?es for any province wight nppenr in some ouarters to he n very substantial increase if it i:ere effected all at once. The onus riRht now is very clearly on the province to satisfy the r.overnment of Canada that the need is there. Hy view has been, because we went through this in Newfoundland in the fifties, when we finally had the Judicature Act nmended to provide for a fourth jud~e, which is an error in the administration of justice that I prefer to forget.

I am sure the hon. member for White Bay South will recall that the Act went unproclaimed during the whole Diefenhaker era, which was not a very flntterinp: thin~ for this nrovince. During that debate, and the request had been madr from time to time during the fifties, the cry that invarihly came back from Ottawa was; He want pretty stronr: proof as to the work-load and the need for it, 1 My view has been, Mr. Chairman, then as it is now, that if it is the yardstick at all it should be minimized in arriving at that kind of conclusion. The simple fact is. t-'r.

Chairman, that I believe it is in the interest of the effective administration of iustice for this province, to have a separate court of appeal. There is no point in eoing 1675

June fi, 1972, Tape 547, Page 3 -- apb and checking the m.rmher of apneals that were taken or heard in this province last year and sn.ying; 'Ah ha'. you only had ten, therefore, we cannot justify paying the salaries of three l11dp-es - a Chief Justice of Appeal and t1.io other ;1ppe2.l judf!es to tah:c ten cases,n t'y belief is chn.t with a separate court of appeal, tbe­ numl,er of appeals would probably quadruple. To me, we can w;::il-"e a good case. In Septer,if'er of 1969, when I occunieri the Port fol Jo th;; t I occupy now, there was a ministerial appointment, Your J-lonour and Mr. J.

Nurse,to do a complete study of the rules of the Supreme Court and of the Judicature Act, with a view to hring:ing in a new Judicature Act which,ns hon. T'.'.erribers will understand.really is the bible for the operation of the courts. All the rules and the re_p:ulations are in it. It also provides for the numl::er of _iudres. As you know, I was not thcrf'. very lonp- after that, Hr, Chai.rman, and the understrmd:tng I get from you and your fellow worker was that that tas}: for some reason was stopped. I would hope to renctivate it again.

Jt is a massive _iob, it tooY approxil"'ately thrc0. vears in Nova Scotia to come up with n new set of rules there. I have renson to believe that in the short months that committee worked, they too had arrived at the conclusion that we should have a separate court of appeal. I do not think that it should tal:e three yenrs to come up with a new set of rules now, or a new .,Judicature Act. because Nova Scotia fortunately has done most of the work for us. That is where it stands.

Now I have, and I must confess that this is a personal beef of mine, but I am convinced that the Fathers of Confederation in 1867, insofar as the administration of justice was concerned, put one over on the provinces. P"ayhe you cannot blame them, then maybe nobody realized what it was all ahout, but you had a situat:fon where the Government of Canada apnoints _judges, and I would hate to see any change in that. I would never be happy to see sµpcrior court iudges apnointcd by any one other that the Governor-General-in-Council. 1676

.Tune 6, 1972, Tape 547. Page 4 ~- :ipb Night. But they do appoint and they do pay. They r.rws the Crininal 1 aw, all Criminal Laws, thev have exclus:lve iurisdktion the same as they have in the field of drugs. But, hnvinp rec.de the appotntwents, they tilcn saddle the provinces vith the cost of nd~inistering iustice.

As I ,sni<l in a speech r0cently, so long as thnt condition continues the 1-lfn:tster of Justice in Ottm-m, the Minister of Justice of r:madn. will never De able to stnnd up .and pPint with pride to the l:ind of administration in this Held that we should have in Canada, because there is a tremendous disparity in the adrrinistration of justice from cmc nrovincc to another.

It is obvjous that the provinces such as Ontario and flue.bee, Hherc they have a very strong tradition of plad.ng grcnt emphasis and i::reat nrinrity on the, nrlministrn.tion of iustice. (and ,Alberta nnd British Columbia) that these provinces are in a position to nrovide the kind of fncili ties that vou need if we are poing- to adr.1inistcr iustice the wny it nust be now. Two years ago. the President of the Canadfan Bar Assod.ntion, after he completed his tour of the ten Canadian Provinces, said that in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island .1nd in St.

John's, Ncwfoundlnnd he found thnt the provincial court buildings were totally archaic .1nd totnlJy 1.ncapablc of functioninp- the way you v.:ould expect in 1970 to find courts functjoninf. Some Newfoundlanders got their hacks up and said; ; The idea of sonebody cominr in and makinp that ¥,ind of comnv::nt.' But our iudges are worldnr, under pretty restricted conditions. Tf and when we have a sepnrnte court of appeal it is not ny intentinn to sec that separate court of nnpea] sittinr un in some loft or someth1nr, They have to hnve the facilities.

The same 2pplies with our District Court Judges. 1'wo or three weeks ap:o there was a verv excellent appointment made to the District Court of Bonnvista - 1677

June 6, 1972 Tape no. 548 Pagel - MRW Mr. Hickman. Trinity-Conception. I would say that the appointment of Judge Noel had the approbation of all practicing la'".ryers in this province. But having done that~ the Government of Canada having made the appointment, I am left with the responsibility of trying to find a place for Judge Noel to do his work. I do not believe that the Orange Lodge or an office in the back of a town council building or some other room that can be found somewhere is the right place to have that kind of work carried out.

As of today I cannot tell where the District Court Judge of Bonavista, Trinity, Conception will sit or be set up permanently. I do not know. I pretty well left it to Judge Noel to examine the various larger centres in that far-reaching constituency and to indicate the place he thinks that some facilities can be found and from which he can adequately perform his work. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that the history of the administration ( this is not peculiar to Newfoundland.

I do not say this in a critical sense and I certainly do not say it in a partisan sense) of justice in this province and probably in other parts of Canada has been that you can never get the necessary monies that are required for the effective performance of that great social service unless you first create -a crisis. There is not very much doubt in my mind that if a choice has to be made between the new hospital and the new court house, who is going to get the nod1 because you cannot have both, unless people security is threatened.

This does not do too much for the administration of justice when you have to wait for this kind of crisis because it is a facet of government that in my opinion should wherever possible - I welcome the kind of debate and suggestions that two honourable members have made here tonight. It is the part of government which, in the best interests of the effective functioning of our force 7 should escape crisis and excessive controversy. It has net happened. Our forefathers for some reason seem 1678

June 6~ 1972 Tape uo. 548 Page 2 to place a greater emphasis on building court houses than we have had in this century. We have a system that I do not particularly like where we have the Supreme Court and Magistrates Court in the Provincial Buildings in Grand Falls and Corner Brook. They are good court rooITs, excellent facilities, excellent e<1uipment 1 etc. When they uere there and I was minister. when one of them was put there, it was aone because of lack of funds. The principle is wrong for a court house to be- in a provincial building.

It is 1 for the very simple reason that as far as the courts are concerned, the Crown has no more rights no greater rights than the lonely fishermen on the Bill of Cape St, George. It is hard to convev that impression or it may not be when you have your correct facilities~ Imagine the impression that would be created if the Supreme Court of Newfoundland were on the third floor of this building. Well the same philosophy applies in Corner Brook and Grand Falls.

My feeling is that if the Government of Canada,in its anxiety,to help certain parts of this nation, the less fortunate parts, in what they call infrastructure and if they are going to assist us in improving the lot of people who are now moving into growth areas as they are, they should not stop at water and sewerage and paved roads, schools and hospitals. There is a fifth dimension and that is court houses. I have to confess that I raised it in Ottawa. Everybody thought it t.tas a good idea. The same pilosophy you run into time after time, there is not a vote in a barrelful.

This is to me~ not right~ I would hope that when this new planning committee that was recently announced and the liaison committee that Mr. Marchand has agreed and the joing planning he has asked for and this government have agreed to go along with, I certainly propose to submit to that committee a brief outlining the views that I have expressed here now. We are not talking about hundreds of millions. We are probably talking about something in the vicinity of $10 million to provide adequate court houses and court facilities in all parts of this province. 1679

June 6, 1972 Tape no~ 548 Page 3 Mr. Hickman There is very little doubt as to the need for the two additional district court judges, one for Gander, Twillingate and one for Burin, Burgeo. The legal profession seems to be expanding and they are starting to move - lawyers are starting to move into these areas to practice,and more will.

If we can get the kind of legal aid system that we should have throughout Canada, I think it will even be more attractive for a young lawyer coming straight out of Law School to go to these places because he will aJrnost have at least a guaranteed income to start out with and at least he will be able to pay the rent the first year he is practicing.

On the question of legal aid - was there any other question on the judges that I have omitted] On the questinn of legal aid, as it has been pointed out to this committee, the Legal Aid Programme in this province was initiated by the Law Society of Newfoundland and they have done a fair amount of work without remuneration.

The proposal that was put to me , within a couple of weeks after I assumed this portfolio in January, is that if you subscribe to the view that legal aid is a social need,which it surely is,and that there is a responsibility on the part of the state to see to it that that social need is met, then the state has to become involved. If we are going to get the kind of service that we must have, there has to be some payment to lawyers who perform that service. There is no question about it that that is a very sound proposition,Mr. Chairman.

The government decided as a matter of principle, on April 5 of this year,that a scale of fees, considerably below that normally paid on a solicitor/client relationship, quite similar in fact identical to the fees that were approved for the legal aid operation and the Legal Aid Programme in New Brunswick, would be approved here. You may ask: How are you going to be' able to handle that this year with the same vote as last year? I have been assured by the Chairman of the Legal Aid 1680

June 6, 1972 Mr. Hickman Tape no. 548 Committee and the member for Placentia East and other Page 4 members of the Society that with the funds they now have on hand and the vote again this year of $25,000 that this will be sufficient to carry through the first year•s programme. My big worry is next year. l would anticipate that next year 1681

June 6. 1972 Tape 549 (night) HR. HI CIQ-1AN : -c:he vote for legal aid will be considerably higher than this being sought than the amount - AN HON. MEJvIBER: Inaudible. MR. l!If.KHAN: New Brunswick is $300,000. AN HO_!h, MEHRER; Six hundred thousand - HR. HICKMAN: Six hundred thousand. AN J!Q.~QffrF:R · That is for criminal alone. PK - 1 MR. H~~KMAN· For criminal alone. They do not have letal aid in civil cases in New Brunswick, so far it is just criminal but it is $600,000. Now you have to bear in mind, Hr. Chairman, that in New Brunswick every hamlet and village probably has one or two lawyers.

Very little of the prosecuting is carried on in that province by the police and that too generates the requirements and the demand, I believe for counri 1 to act on behalf of the accused. The federal government when Hr. Turner was Minister of Justice indicated a willingness and this might be the very year for them to show their willin~ness to become involved in legal ai.d. There was an indication given by Hr. Turner that the input for this province could go to $400,000 a year hut I have to confess to the committee that nothing has been heard from that since Mr.

Turner's departure nor have we received 1 or I have not anyway seen them, they might he in the Department, the details as to the kind of involvement they had in mind because I am left with the impression they are going to be very jealous of provincial responsibility vis-3-vis federal. But still if and when this comes to pass I can see where this too will generate more demand among our people for legal aid. The terms and conditions under which Newfoundlanders are entitled to legal aid now are fairly board.

The overriding principle is that no Newfoundlander shall be deprived of legal aid, of access to a lawyer- if it can be shown to the legal aid committee,and they 1682

June 6, 1972 Tape 549 (night) PK - 2 MR. llIC1'11AN: are pretty generous in theix

interpretation,thnt to have to pay a lawyer would impose an tmnccessary burden on the family or would result in their doinr without any of the necessitit;s of U fe. That principle would be difficult to quarrel with, The one area in particular where the Law Society has been moving with some. caution is in the field of domestic or matrimon1al law. It :l.s obvious that you do not want to have legal aid to the extend that every time a husband and wi_fe has a row they can run down and go into legal aid and demand that a writ be issued~ This would only compound the frlony.

But a step has been taken in the right direction, in that if a doctor or a welfare officer is perpared to certify that it is in the interest of the health or well-beinr, of either of these parties that they have their matter aired in court and action taken in court or that they needler.al advice,then they will qualify. It is becoming a pretty expensive programme. T believe. in Ontario. Mr. Chairman, the legal aid. I know it is running into the millions now. It is going to he another expensive social programme in this province hut the need has been very clearly demonstrated.

The Law Society have indicated their willinr;ness to continue and we have. There has not been the demand for le~al aid that the committee had anticipated. Do not ask me the reasons, nobody quite knows. There was an attempt made hy the Law Society to broadcast these facilities. Every mar,istrate in the province from time to time has circulated and told, you know, given the rules and regulations and asked to make sure that anyone who comes before him who in his opinion should have counsel. He is advised of this, but still the demand has not been that great. But it will grow.

On the question of royal commissions, Mr. Chairman, and I hate to be delaying the committee so lonr,, there was a request made of the province hy the Law Society, "ct,,be.r 8. 1970. the Law Society fonnerly requested the then Premier to set up rt ro:•.:i.l commission 1683

June 6, 1972 Tape 549 (night) PK - 3 and to inquire into all the aspects o( the administration of Justice, to 'Which they did not receive a reply butt believe they had a meeting. I am not sure of that. On the 3rd. of December they renewed the::tr request again. In the heginninp; I was inclined to feel that what we required was that kind of hoard commission of inquiry. But there are a couple of thinps that occurred which indicate to me that it might be hetter to change my mind.

(1) Was the appointment of the Steele Commission which takes care of a very important aspect of the administration of Justice in this province. I think it is ninety-six percent of all criminal cases, maybe ninety-eight percent of all criminal- cases but it is certainly ninety-six percent of all criminal cases in this province are tried before magistrates. So they are the judges that are closest to the people and with whom the people become involved most frequently. When that study was taken out and separated there was not that much left for a commission to do.

I had no hesitancy at all in confirming to the commission of Mr. Steele, following my appointment, that he was to proceed with his inquiry under precisely the same terms of reference that he had been given before. Ny understanding is that he is conducting a very searching inquiry and that his studies are goinr- beyond this province. He is involvinR a lot of people,not just lawyers and judges and law professors; sociologists and others and the magistrates themselves are doing a great deal of work in preparing submissions for the Steele Commission. I have no idea what the Steele Commission will recommend.

But I will be awfully disappointed if the Steele Connnission do not recommend and even if they do not it is certainly a matter that will be government policy 1 we must have legislation to take magistrates outside of the ambit of the civil service. They should not be civil servants. They should be under their own act,similar to the judges act, similar to magistrates• acts in other province's. They should be 1684

June 6, 1972 Tape 549 (night) PK - 4 HR. HICKMAN: given absolute security of tenure. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. !:...~.:HICKMAN: Hell by this Ontario, but judges you know, Hr. Chairman, can only he removed by two-third votes of the House of Commons and Senate. Only once since 1867 has that ever happened and that was many years ago. They almost had to do the same thing four years ago in Ottawa. But even then I was told by Mr.

Turner that he had grave doubts ,despite the gravity of the charges against that particular judge,whether they could have succeeded because of the natural reluctance of responsible parliamentarians to become involved or even creating the impression that they can bring pressure to bear. ~ut fortunately the issue did not come forth because the man resigned, But in Ontario 1685

June 6, 1972 Tape 550 (Night) JM - l "they have a system whereby if a magistrate is guilty of a misdemeanor, and that is about the only th:!.ng I can think of, or he becomes chronically sick or a kind of sickness that would not he desirable for a magistrate but he can only he removed by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, upon the recommendation of the chief justice and one other judge,and I think up there they haven chief magistrnte.

But again it is taken totally out of the hands of the Government of Ontario. the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, they can only act if there is a firm recommendation from this committee,and that probably would be the answer here. This is what I would hope to see and as T say even if the Steele Commission does not make that recommendation,T look forward to bringing into this House by this time next ycar,if the commission has completed its final report,

an act embodyin~ these principles. I gather from the comments from my friend across the House that this would receive the unanimous support I suspect of the people in this House.

Another reason why I kind of shied awav from appointing this overall commission is thnt just after I assumed office there was an indication from the ,John Howard Society, I think, in particular. and similar ~roups,that in their opinion it would not he desirable to have a commission or a study into the correctional facilities which involves something more than the administration of justice encompassed in the terms of reference of an overall cormnission.

After some inquiry I discovered that correctional, and they are not commissions, that is not the word, that correctional studies or studies into the correctional facilities have already been carried out in New Brunswick. Saskatchewan was completed this week nnd Nova Scotia is about to be completed. So I appointed the Chief of Police; Jud~e Charles Roberts, Mr. Frank Simms of the Department 1686

June 6, 1972 Tape 550 (Night) of Child Welfare and Superintendent Fagan to recommend to me wh;tt in their opinion should be done in the correctional field,and they made one simple recommendation. Their recommendation was that there should be n study, an in-depth correctional studv for the Prov:i.nce of Newfoundland. They pointed out that the way to do it nnd the way it has proven very satisfactory in Canada is to have this as JN - 2 a joint Federal-Provincial study because it is overlapping jurisdiction. We have nothing to do with sentencing.

Now I have heard speeches in this House about the desparity of sentencing and nll this sort of stuff. It is the sort of thing that is cause for concern but that like parole falls in the _1urisdiction of the Government of Canada and this is why in my opinion there should be this Federal­ Provincial study. So I then made a formal request of the honourable John Pierre Goyer, the Solicitor General of Cnnada.

He has not responded in writing as yet but he has given a very clear indication through one of his senior officials who was here last week that he will go along with this study and the basis will be two appointed by the Government of Newfoundland and two bv the Government of Canada and they choose a chaim.an. I do not want to sound miserly but the beauty of it is that the Government of Canada pays the shot which is something that is not to be overlooked.

They hnve used as chairman in the other provinces some very eminent criminologists or sociologists, I cannot recall the name of the man now,from New Brunswick,but I hone to get him here. He is on the staff of C:arlton University. They will evaluate and assess adult and juvenile jurisdictions and recommend with respect to improvements and chan)?es to the present services and the functions and effective correctional programme for Newfoundland consistent with current community needs, crime prevention. It will cover the whole bit, 1687

June 6, 19-72 Tape 550 (Night). penitentiary. correctional services. Now it may not he a very good analogy because in the Province. of New Brunswick they had county jails stuck all over the place but JM - 3 1 think it is very relevant that the New Brunswick Enquiry recommended that five jails be closed and not replaced,and they were. Apparently it has had a very salutary effect.

Given these two important facets of the administration of justice and the fact that government ns a matter of nolicy believe that there should be a separate court of appeal and an additional trial judge and the two additional county court judges or district court .iudges we do not have too much left. AN HON. ME½BER: There is only security left. MR...Jl!.~~_:_ There is only security left. Insofar as security is concerned I am not as yet satisfied that a royal commission per se is indeed necessary to carry out.

What I would prefer to do right now and what I have in mind is only a thought and this is in consultation with the Chief of Police, is having someone take a look at the police methods, police programmes as they are on-~oing in the Newfoundland Constabulary to see what improvements if any they want to recommend in line with the new techniques. Both honourable gentlemen have raised a question of whether or not the Newfoundland Constabulary should be expanded.

If you want to be full of patriotism and if you want to get lots of votes I suppose the thing to do is say, 11 Sure, without any further thought, we will expand the constabulary throughout the province." There are an awful lot of things, Mr. Chairman, that have to be taken into account. I have no objection at all to seeing the Newfoundland Constabulary being expanded to look after policing in other parts of the province but I lay down one firm condition,that they have to be as well equipped and as well trained as you can expect the 1658

June 6, 1972 Tape 550 (Night) JM - 4 police force should be and must bf' to carry out the total provincial policing 1and there you will get into a great deal of money. The Government of Can.1da c;ich year,throu~h the RCMP in Newfoundland., at no cost to this province snends a minimum of S.l, million on capital accounts. I do not know what thev do with it but they do it. Thev snent SL million this past ye.tr. The cost to this province of havinv to take over all these detachment houses and iails and equipment would be pretty hif!h. NT HON. MEMBER: Do we nay -? A,"1 HON.

ME?-ffiER: Does it come_out of the service contract, mavbe? MR. HICKMAN: -------· We pay. I think it is forty-three per~cent of the salaries of a specified number (I have it here) of the RCMP and maybe when we come to the RCMP vote I can e:et it. The cost of training an RCMP recruit, I helieve. is something between $10,000 and $12,000 a year. There is no charge to us on that account. There is no charge to us for the laboratory facilities that we can avail of, no charp-e to us.

They harl two boats strate1dcally stationed on the coast 1 hoth in the ancient and honourable Tiistrict of Burin, and it did not cost us a cent~ mapnificient boats, limited success, very, very limited, that is with respect to an industry that I have heard rumors about. In other fields, in search and rescue and in transporting the magistrate up the coast 1 they have had astounding success but sometimes it is foggy and the radar does not work. We have some pretty skillful seamen down there and I would not want to disrupt them.

It is becomin~ less attractive thou~h every yenr~ prices are going up across the water as well. 1689

June 6, 1972 Tape 551 NB - 1 The candidate down there at one time wanted to build a tunnel. That was his great plank in his platform. He was going to build a tunnel from Point Hay to our neighbours across the reach. Deservedly he did not get a vote over there. You can imagine all you have to do is station one man at the end of the tunnel. Most undesirable, most undesirable indeed, We cannot have any of that nonsense. The suggestion of the hon. member for St. John I s South as to a pilot project, I must say it is the first time I have heard this suggestion, but it certainly will not be dropped.

It is hard to quite know what the people want. I remember three or four years ago the then member for Humber East, Mr. Wells, made a statement and he was talking about,we want the Newfoundland Constabulary out in Corner Brook. Discrimination, you can imagine they way he - The next day I had more telephone calls and wires and letters from Corner Brook saying that we are very~very happy with our city detachment of the R.C.M.P. and we do not want a change.

So, you know, I am not plagued with municipal delegations, plagued is not the word, but I certainly do not have to see them like the Minister of Municipal Affairs does. I would say that three times a month they come in and they request either for an R.C.M.P. detachment or an increase in the size of the R.C.M.P. detachment. A municipality- in the Chairman 1 s district is from time to time asking us.

So you know people should not go away with the impression that it is the great desire of everybody in Newfoundland that we make that kind of change, What I am going to say now is totally off the top of my head and it cannot be interpreted as government policy. A pilot project and an expansion in Newfoundland Constabulary bearing in mind the tremendous cost may have something to commend it. The place where I would like to see it tried is in Labrador City. It is a purely personal thing, but it is for very obvious reasons.

I would very much like to see flash of the Newfoundland Constabulary in that area, the shoulder flash. If we can work on that pilot project, I would think the place to first try to see, because we do have 1690

June 6, 1972 Tape 551 NB - 2 a Municipal contract. There are only two tone for Corner Brook and the other one for Labrador City. There is where I would J tke to be able to do it If we find we can implement it t I would think it would be a very good place to start. I tried, I think, and I hope that:, I know that I have been a bit too lengthy too. Herc is one of the problems nnd mnybe we will come into the rectifying of these. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: That is right, Hr. Chairman, I ndmitttld that. We have two, Corner Brook, Labrador City - Wahush.

HunJcipaliti~s in the main do not want to be into the policing husiness. Number one, they cannot afford to pay the kind of salary to attract the police they retJuire. And they get into this shift system. Mount Pearl for instance has a problem right now. They have two municipal policemen. Baie Verte wrote in. Their request was not for Municipal policemen but rather a stepping up of activities on the pa.rt of the R.C.M.P. Goose Bay were in the same thing, not a request for their own police, but a stepping up of the policing by the R.C.M.P.

Generally, by in large, when that kind of a request comes in, I find that the R.C.M.P. are fairly alert and quick to respond, once you have initiated an inquiry. In each of these instances this has been done. Occasionally a municipality will hire a policeman. Any time they want to come in and send them in to have some basic training with the Newfoundland Constabulary, it is available, But in 'the main it has not worked. I remember seeing a AN HON. MEMBER: - collecting bills MR. HICKMAN: Well, collecting bills on municipal account is really not the job of a policeman. It is a job of the.

Deputy Sheri.ff or it is a job for the Town Clerk. But it is not the job I even if you had a municipnl policeman, I do not think the Town Council should use a police.man as a bill collector. They do, but I believe part of it is that they do not realise that they can do it through other channels and nvtmueu. 1691

June 6, 1972 Tape 551 NB - 3 The last thing~ Mr. Chairman, is a question from the hon. member for White Bay South as to whether there will be any new fire halls this year. The answer obviously has to be no. I will try to answer any of the other questions as best I can as we come to each of the headings. MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Chairman, before you get into the headings, I would like to have a few words on the Estimates generally here, and the matters mentioned by the minister and the hon. member for White Bay South.

First of all I, was a member of that committee appointed by the Law Society to consider the necessity of an appeal court for the Province. As the minister said in his remarks, the recommendation of that committee to the Law Society was that this Province and the Province of Prince Edward Island were infact the only two Provinces of Canada that in fact lacked an appenl court. We were satisfied after studying the case load and all the relevant facts and data that this Province should in fact have an appeal court and we made the recommendation to the Attorney General at that time.

I was glad to see, of course, that representation was made to the Government of Canada to have the required leg:f.slation brought in. I share the minister's view as to the necessity for good surroundings for our court of appeal. l do not think, myself, Mr. Chairman, that we should wait for a court of appeal in this Province until we build a new court house, because I think we could be waiting much longer than the need will permit.

So, while it may be difficult to find appropriate quarters, I really do feel that this is a great necessity,this appeal court,and while there is need for improved facilities and probably even new facilities, I do not think that we should just wait. I think we should continue to exert the required efforts to see that that appeal court is established. On the question of Legal Aid mentioned by the two gentlemen who spoke in the debate, I will again like to pay tribute to the wonderful co­ operation of the Law Society, Mr.

Chairman, in that respect because,as members of the committee know, this programme was a,voluntary one and all 1692

June 6, 1972 Tape 551 NB - 4 services rendered by lawyers from June 1968, when the plan was first implemented, until January l of this year Jere all on a voluntary basis and not one lawyer was paid one cent for any services rendered.

Under the system that prevailed, every lawyer was suppose to take a case that was assigned to him, and if that lawyer was unable to handle the case, the plan required the lawyer to whom the case was assigned to himself engage a lawyer to look after the applicant who was referred to him I know of cases in this Province where lawyers have paid up to $500.00 to have some person who needed legal aid represented in the courts. Admittedly, this did not happen too often, but it certainly has happened.

I want the committee and the members to realize that this grant of $10,000 a year was to pay only the disbursements of the Legal Aid Committee, In other words, to pay for the secretarial staff and any disbursements, If a lawyer were obliged to travel to any point in Newfoundland to represent an applicant,of course for Legal Aid, his disbursements were paid, but no funds for the service itself. Now, anyone who has any concept of legal costs today, and I notice the member from Bell Island has already made his views well known on this:knows 1693

June 6, 1972 Tape 552 (night) PK - l hm-' far even this grant of $25,000 would go if the services rendered were to he po.id for from the pranL The only monies paid to any lawyer for legal aid is the salary that has been paid to Hr. Chalker vho was appointed as a ler:al a.id officer in January of this year. I hope. Hr.

Chairman, that legal aid will never in this province end up in a situation where there is just one man or two oen or even three men administering all of the le~nl aidthecause it will take on this idea of a public defender. :My ow-n view is that this would not be the best means of serving the people who need legal aid. I would like to see myself every applicant entitled to legal aid to have the right to select his lawyer. This, of course, is what the committee suggested to the r.:overnn:ent and this is the whole basis of what we are now ne):;otiating with government.

We hope that they will arrange this scale of fee and the scale will be,of course, as the minister Jtas.j1rat said, considerably less than the prevailin~ rntes, Then when any person has been found entitled to leral aid,that individual will be able to engage any lawyer who is prepared to accept legal aid assignments, This, I think will be a step in the right direction. I do not know myself, ~tr. Chairman, how far really this grant plus what funds are on hand in the legal aid committee will go to cover the cost of this service.

I sincerely trust that if more money is needed, which will certainly, probably next year, that the required funds will be forthcoming. But I think it is only fair to say that we. the government, have in the past only paid lip service to legal aid because really $10,000 in a province such as this,with a population of now one~half a million people,is really insignificant, particularly when you consider, as I said before, that the Province of Nev Brunswick is spending $600,000 alone on legal aid in criJT]inal matter. :i.6 94

Tune 6, 1972 Tape 552 (nlght) llK - 2 HR. ALYHA]i-p+, In Nova Scotia, for example, this year a sum in excess of $1~00, ODO will he spent and to think that v;-e can provide the needy of this province with proper lepnl representation with SlO,f"Jf!O or $25 fl(){) or $50,000 is really ridiculous. So I would like the committee to apprecinte that even the scale of fees nepotiated with the minister referred to hetm~en the government and the legal aid committee or the Law Society, this only represents pnyment to lat-7ers for services rendered under the present plan.

Fy mm hope then is that the society will see fit in the future to broaden the plan and, of course, if the povernrnent would .see fit to find sufficient funds to pay for a broaden plan. Be.cause what the government are prepared to pay for is the services now provide<l,that is to people under the present plan. This plan of course is not, in my opinion, as adeouate or as comprehensive as I would like it to be. But I of course, it is a start and we must start some1,1here. So people :Should not get the wrong ide.a that all legal aid is onlv legal aid as it is presently covered by the plan. Ny final remark, Yir.

Chairman. is with respect to the mapistrates. I would like myself to pay tribute to the magistrates. I think the magistrates of this province have done over the years an exceptionally good joh and some of them under very, very tryinr and difficult circumstances. I do not know what the terms of reference in detail of this commission are but T feel that one very, very important rnatter 1 as far as the map:istrates are concerned 1 is the question of pay. I feel myself that the magistrates should have an adequate income that they can live on.

Today it is very, very costly for a man to brinr; up a family in any part of Newfoundland and the magistrates beiniz the leaders in the community are always called upon to make certain donations to various causes. They have a lot of expenses, Hr. Chairman. and my ovn view is that the salaries paid to the magistrates in the 1695

June 6. 1972 Tape 552 (ni~ht) PK - 3 t_fR:'. ALY.l!_ARD! outports really are not adequate~ T would like to see further sums allocated oyself for the m:1p:istrates salaries. Because as for myself when I had vistted the various parts of the province and the magistrates have spoken to me, as I am sure they do to any lawyer visiting their courts 1 they rnake known to you the financial difficulties which they experience.

I think, for example, for a magistrate to have to sit up and act as a judge in a case where lots of times R.C.H.P officers who are of a very high rank are rirosecuting,probahly sergeants or staff sergeants,and these men in some case are receiving more money actually than the maf!iStrate himself.

Now I am not quarrelling: vith the salary they receive but I do feel that the magistrates salary should he certainly as hip,h as the government can possibly afford,because these men should live with f;reat dignity in the communities and they should be free from any pressures at all and they should have no financial worries and anything we could do to alleviate this I a~ sure would be appreciated hy the magistrates. AN HON. MF'.MBER • Inaudible. MJ':.:,_A..!::_~,~RD:- Oh, I am glad to see that, Mr.

Chairman"!, I did not know I thought it was just whether they should be or from whom the future appointments should come1 whether it should come from all lawyers. Hell. I nm very, very glad to sec that is included because, I think, that is one of the most important matters that probably faces in the administration of Justice because these men should be paid a very, very good wage or a very, very good salary of course so that they can live in dignity. That is all, Mr. Chairman, thank you. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I did not intend to get into this debate but I thought after listening to the honourable member for Placentia East and the honourable member for St. John's South that I could not resist ~etting i.n before members of this House and the people who ,are listening to this debate r,et carried away with the pious self-righteous 1696

June 6, 1972 Tape 552 (night) attitude that was just stated there hv the merr:ber for Placentia East concerning the Law Society and the l;ivye:rs in this province, the do-gooders. PK - f; Mr. Chaiman, is the honourable memher :n.:n.re that when lcp.nl aid was first introduced in this province that the Lav f:odety tc offset the adverse puhlicity that they ¼'ere r,etting over the htgh cost of legal fees in real estate transactions in this province dec1ded that they would introduce n form of legal aid on n volnntarv hnsis - on a voluntary basis, Hr. Chairman. Surely the hnnournhle member must he aware of thnt.

There was 'to he no provincial grant, no money involved. It was going to he voluntnry. The next thing we know, Hr. Chairman, the Law Society is up to the government with its lrnnd out and the taxpayers have to lash out $10,000 for legal aid and ue pnid it for the last three or four years. The honourable minister can look at me all he likes hut it is a fact. I am stating a fact. TnaudJhle. "1R ~!If.ARY: Hell the honourable minister roust be getting cross-eyed then. I am sure he was looking over this way maybe he needs his glasses changeil. Mr.

Chaiman, 1 am deadly opposed, Tum deadly opposed to lashinr- out any more taxpayers' money to the Law Society for legal aid in tM.s province. I think if we are going to have a legal aid programme in this province the government should run it themselves. 1697

June 6, 1972. Tape 553 Page 1. Let the Department of Justice provide the luwyers. The next thing you know Mr. Chairman, we will have another scandal like we have with Medicare. with the doctors, $115YOOO a year. That will only be chicken feed compared to the lawyers {f they can get their clutches on the publ-; <' chest. Mr. Chairman, if the law society in this Province is as sanctimonious and self-righteous as the honourahle member says it is. Why did they not carry out the recommendation of the Kostazek Royal Commission and reduce the legal fees involved in real estate transactions in this Province?

Why does not the ':!inister of Justice use his influence to get the Law Society to clean up their own house as was recommended by Mr. Kostaz.ek? Why? Hr. Chairman, I would like to hear the honourable minister get up and tell us why he does not use his influence to get this done, Do it, instead of passing out Q.C's. Why not do something to help the poor people of this Province? Get the cost of legal fees and real estate transactions down to ten dollars what it should be, instead of anywhere now from $600 to $¼500. Great scandal, Mr. Chairman.

The honourable member for Placentia East wants to do something for this Province. I am sure he does or he would not be sitting in this House. There is a challenge for him. There is a challenge for the member for St. John I s South and a challenge for the Minister of Justice. The honourable member for Cambridge is dver studying law in England. When he gets back to this Province - MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, a point of order.

On a point of order this type of the honourable member for Cambridge 1 there is a certain amount of decorum and dignity in this House that I think is lacking in this type of reference that is being made from time to time. Standing Order 52, says that 1tno member shall speak nor use offensive words against any member of this House.'' Quite frankly I think this type of reference to other members, mem!0 ers in this House are, the Honourable Hinister of Finance 1698

June 6, 1972. Tape 553. Pape 2, or the Honourable Minister of Justice or the honourable member for Placentia East or what have you. I do not think;Your Honnur,that this particular type of reference to members of this Fouse bv ittW manner other than the normal accented annellat1.cn should be allowed. MR.ROHE: The point of order by my hcnourable f:r:icnd 1 the Covernnent House Leader, is exceedingly well taken. Of course, it is obvious that sometimes in the House t',e flurry of activity in the House members are going to lose their tempers and whatnot. But I am in total arxeement with what he has to sav.

As lonr, as. Sir, he can prevail upon some of his own high-ranking ministers and members to stop using vile terms against this side of the House. MR.BARRY, Order. Order. In the point: of order the honourable member must restrict himself tn talking to the point of order.

So, with respect to the point of order raised it ls a proper point of order. the Chair recognizes thnt ln the heat of debate references nre made however a continual reference of th:is nature,when it ',ecotr.es apparent that it is betn~ used to refer to an honourable memher,then it is the opinion of the Cha 1x that such cont.tnual use is unparliamentary. MR.NEARY: Hr. Chairman, if 1 mav continue, The honourable member for Placentia East mentioned the figure in h1.s reference to Legal A1d in Nev Brunswick, S400,000, $600,0DO in another province.

Is the honourable member inferring that the taxpayers of this province lash out S400,000 or Sfifl0,000 to the lawyers in this Province who are already, Mr. Chairman, the hJ~hest paid in Canada. Is this what the hanournble member is suggesting? Mr.

Chairman, I would Auggest if these honourable and learned gentlemen are sincere, the honourable member for St, John's East who ,just took h:i.s ';eat is renuinely sincere in trying to help the people of this province,why does the honourahle m"nister not use his influence to get the high cost of legal fees and real estate transactions in this province reduced down to ten dollars? Hhat is considered to he a reasonable charge( 1699

June 6, 1972 Tape 553. Page 3. Mr. Chairman, while I am on my feet' I want to talk about the correct,:,onal facilities in this province. When I first became minister of Social Services & Rehabilitation,Sir, I got the feeling that the Department of Justice bitterly resented the fact that the Department of Welfare was looking after the probation services in this province. Sir, dealing with the Department of Justice on probation matters and on parole matters was like dealing with a foreign government. They just did not want to have anything to do with it. They di<l not want to hear about it.

As a con$equence of that policy,Sir, that I would say is my opinion. I dealt with it when I was Minister of Social Services & RehabiLitation for three and a-half years. As far as adult probation in this province is concerned,it is practically non-e:-:istent. I tried to build it up when I was there. But it is practically non-e:•:istent. Now, granted, Mr. Chairman, every welfare_ officer is supposed to be doing or is a probation officer,can do probation work. But, Sir, it does not work out that way. The welfare officer and the social worker is too busy, he has too many other things to do. I always contended,Mr.

Chairman, that this was the resrionsibility of the Department of Justice 1 should not be in the Department of Social Services & Rehabilitntion. I am not trying to cut down the minister's empire and build the empire of the Minister of Justice. I think it rightly belongs to the Minister of Justice. Mr. Chairman, can you imagine the Solicitor General of Canada coming down to Newfoundland and having to sign an agreement for looking after parolees with the Depart1:;ont of Social Services & Rehabilitation and not with the Minister of Justice.

I am inclined to agree with the honourable minister that there should be a fact-finding study made of correctional facilities in this Province. You know today,Mr. Chairman, as far as juvenile facilities are concerned, when a young fellow runs afoul of the law today or a young girl runs afoul of the law today the 1700

June 6, 1972. Page 4~ only facilities that we have in this province where we. can put these young boys and girls are in the Boys Training Home over at Uldtbourne, the Boys Training Home at Pleasantville, and the Cirls raininrc Hoce in on Wateiford Bridge Road. Now) Hr. Chairman, these ;1re not correctional institutions as the minister knows. Although every once and n while on radio and television and in the newspapers I hear them referred to as correctional institutions, They are not correctional institutlons, Hr. Chairman, not by any stretch of the i.magination.

If they were correctional institutions the r:overnment of Canada would not pav fifty per cent of the cost of operating these institutions under the Canarla Assistance Plan. That is why Hr. Speaker, we have such poor juveni1.e fac.Hities in this province be.cause we 1701

June 6~ 1972 Tape no. 554 Page l - MRW MR. NEARY. have always tried to cover up the fact that these are not correctional institutions so that we could qualify for fifty per cent of the cost of operating them from the Government of Canada. I claim Hr. Chairman that the Department of Justice should iuve its own facilities. When n boy or girl, juvenile, sixteen, seventeen,eighteen years old, continues to run afoul of the law, continues to get into trouble, you know,,. Mr. Chairman,where they end up, I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that you do know where they end up.

Your Honour is practicing law in this province and he is in daily contact with the courts, with what is happening to these boys and girls. They wind up down in Her Majesty's Penitentiary~ Mr. Chairman. There are boys and girls inside the walls of the penitentiary tonight that in my opinion should not be there. They should be in some other kind of institution. The hon~ Minister without Portfolio is looking at me and I think probably in his mind he is probably agreeing with it. He does not agree with me, Mr. Chairman.

The honourable minister does not agree that there are boys and girls, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen years old down in the penitentiary tonight that should not be there. The honourable member does not agree with that. I thought the honourable member had a kind heart. I can see now that he does not. I think, Mr. Chairman, what the minister is doing is a step in the right direction. I would like to see separate correctional facilities operated by the Department of Justice for boys and girls in this province, apart from the institutions that are operated by the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation.

These are homes and training schools, not correctional institutions, Mr. Chairman. I hope that the minister will not delay in setting up this fact-find authority because I think it is very necessary. I would like to see the members appointed immediately so they can start working on this great problem. 1702

June 6, 1972 Tape no. 554 Page 2 MR. HICKMAN: With regard to that last comment of the hon. member for Bell Island, the plan is to have - I would anticipate that this would be done within the next couple of weeks as soon us the w~n the Solicitor General has in mind for chairman is contacted. I still do not have a formal acceptance yet. I am only speaking from memory now but I want to f-irstly set the record straight.

There has ht-en no reluctance to my knowledge in the Department of Justice, not during my tenure of office,towards the department accepting responsibility for correctional institutions as they relate to juveniles. TI1is now is subject to correction what I am about to say. I have a feeling that the correctional facilities were transferred from the Department of Justice at the request of the Department of Welfare about twelve years ago. At that time those involved in correctional work (I believe Dr. H.

Pottle did some study on that as well many years ngo and initiated the first study) came to the conclusion that the then Department of Welfare was better equipped to carry out the kind of correctional programmes that were envisaged in the 1950 1 s and 1960's. I do know that when I assumed this portfolio the first time that Judge Roberts was on the staff of the department - he was not but his predecessor Judge Butt was on the staff of the Department of Welfare and we made a change and brought him under the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice.

I ;ust want to mention this and I know we want to get on the estimates because I can see my honourable colleague down there waiting to get on With his. There was a very excellent meeting of the John Howard Society about ten days ago. The first meeting I attended a few years ago of that society, there was not that much interest in this province in correctional philosophies and needs.

But we went down the other night to the Newfoundland Hotel (they told us that it was the largest meeting that they ever had) and the ballroom was just about filled, not filled with just a lot of retired people who had a very valuable contribution to make but quite a large number of students and young people were in that hall. 1703

June 6, 1972 Mr. Hickman Page 3 I do not want to flatter my hon. colleague, the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation but without a note in front of him, he gave what was described by Hr. HcCombe of the Solicitor General I s Department snd Hr. Miller of the Naticr,al Parole: Board and those in attendance, the best and ablest dissertation on correctional philosophies and on correctional needs that I have ever heard. I do not embarrass him. He is a modest man.

I can only say that everybody in this honourable House would have been very, very pleased indeed to hear the response that came to his - he could not prepare for it because it was a panel discussion and his comw~nts had to arise out of a speech that had been made by Mr. McCombe. The president got up and said, "at long last we have a Minister of the Crown who understands the kind of correctional philosophy and improvement and the change of direction that this province must have. Somebody suigested to him afterwards that his speech should be published.

I was greatly surprised that it did not have a note in front of him. It was a tremendous performance. What this committee will recommend as to which department shall assume responsibility over the correctional facilities, I do not know. If their recommendations indicate that the Department of Justice is better equipped to do it and it makes sense what they recommend, it will be done. I do not think anybody in Newfoundland can take too much pride in the facilities we have to look after juveniles now but that is probably better debated under the estimates of Social Services and Rehabilitation.

We are still responsible for it. I cannot think of anything else Mr. Chairman. MR, WOODWARD: &. Chairman, just to be very brief, I want to touch on a few points before I get into the working of the Labrador Coast. I would like to first touch on legal aid, a subject that I am not too familar with. I have heard little about it so far. This is what I am 1704

June 6, 1972 Mr. Woodward Tape no. 554 Page 4 going to talk about. What publicity has been given to legal aid in this province other than in the City of St. John 1 s or the City of Corner Brook where you have a number of lawyers? How many of the citizens throughout the province or the outlining areas, the out-harbours and coves and the Labrador Coast do knoo.J waat there is such a thing as legal aid 1.n the Province of Newfoundland"! MR. HICI(}L.\N: Let me answer that, Hr. Chairman.

Goose Hay is is one of the places where there is a great deal - but there are some parts of the Island of Newfoundlan<l which do not appear to be as fully aware as the people of Goose Bay. There is a fair amount. Is that not right? There is a fair asnount provided in the Goose Bay area, particularly. !1.~. WOODWARD: Well 1 am sure the honourable minister will agree, if we take into conside1ation the expense of lawyers travelling into Labrador that the budget of S10,000 in a number of cases would over-burden the expense. MR. J!ICK!'.AN: No, this is what caused one of the problems.

Lawyers were doing this at their expense, except the travelling. Thev would go down and be gone for five days at a time~ l would hope that the honourable member is grateful for the legal aid services that have been provided in Goose Bav. MR. WOODWARD: l am,Hr. Chairman, very grateful for it. I feel that there are a number of cases . 1 have not yet heard of a legFl aid case in Goose Bay. 1 will believe you if you say that there was a legal aid case.

I am sure that there are a number of cases~maybe more pressing and more needy in the communities north of Goose Bay that could probably use legal aid, than the ciJ::izens of Happy Valley, Goose Bay. I think that if there should be a legal a.id programme of any magnitude in this province then again it should be for the whole of the province and i705

June 6, 1972 Tape no. 554 Page 5 Mr. Woodward not necessarily confined to the areas where we have lawyers. As you know we do not hnve a resident lawyer in the whole of Labrador, There are a number of notices which I have seen. There is an office in one place or another. I discovered th.at this was only a travellin;; lawyer who was doing business from a briefcase 1706

June S, 1972 Tape 555 NB - l ;rnd d:i.d not necessarily estat<Jish on office 8"' such. There is one in Labrador City 1 is it not? AN HON. MEMBER: l!R• WOODWARD: Is there one in Labrador City? I stand to be corrected if there is one. HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible AN HON. MEMBER: The.re is one down there. HR. WOODWARD: How recent? A1'l HON. MEMBER: Three years. MR. WOODWARD: Well, it is new to me. I did not know there was. We do not have one in the Goose Bay or the South or the North of Labrador. I did not thing they had a lawyer practicing law as such. We have a lawyer employed by the company. k~ HON. MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR. woonWARD: In private practice in Labrador? AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible MR. WOODWARD: I have know the certain gentleman to travel quite widely into that area and I was under the impression that this was the case. So, I think, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister of .Justice in his wisdom possibly will look into the possibility of legal aid in the event that there is such a large programme that it will be widely spread throughout the Province to give the citizens of the whole of this Province the opportunity to avail of this service.

I do not particularly care how it is set up, but if there is a need which he expressed, Sir, as a very great social need for legal aid in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, I hope that it will ,be publicized and it will be spread throughout the whole of the Province. We have, getting back to policing, and I would like to ask the minister, maybe he can make a note of this, Mr. Chairman? that we ran into a number of problems in a number of communities. I understand the difficulties of travelling on the Labrador Coast and the great cost and expense of having possibly a police officer in each community.

But we have on several occasions 17fi7

June 6, 1972 Tape 555 NB - 2 had communities that have not had visits from police officers, due to the fact that they could not get into the community and the expense of going into the communities either by the R.C.M.P. Aircr;:1ft or some other commercial means. There was a number of communities that wer2 not r;oHced for a long period of time. Naturally, I suppose in this case here is that, as in lots of cases, they saw the R.C.M.P. officer come in with the magistrate and act as the Crown Prosecutor.

Did the arrest~ act as a Crown Prosecutor and consequently left maybe with the prisoner ,or acquittal, from the community. This do happen in lots of cases in the communities. So one thing I am going to ask the hon. minister. What criteria is set under the contractunJ agreements with the R.C.M.P. in Newfoundland? What size of a community would constitute having a police officer in the commun:i.ty? And. in the event that we have a number of communities, is it possible that there could be some regular visits set up or some routine visits set up to visit the communities where there are no police officers?

I think possibly this is one of the important things~ I understand where you have isolation and where you have great distances to travel that you do not necessarily do the same thing as you do here on the Island portion of the Province. I nm quite familiar with the great Northern Peninsula. As a youtht I saw maybe .n couple of Newfoundland Majors and the R.C.M.P., but after the road to St. Anthony and down that area where you travel through possibly every small community and then you get regular policing.

This is impossible on the Labrador Coast and I am sure my colleague from Labrador South will bear me out on this. So we have been thinking in terms of what criteria should be set and not necessarily having a police officer in each community but then again having some regular system set up and monitored by the Department of Justice so that they do get policing over a period of time. I think this is only fair to ask and maybe the hon. minister can answer me that question, Hr. Chairman. 1708

June 6, 1972 Tape 555 NB - 3 As far as magistrates are concerned and I think that over the last couple of years we have been more thnn hn.ppy with the service and the people on the coast have been more than happy with the services that have been provided by the magistrate. making_ his period.:! r ,1 sits m3ybe every two weeks through the whole North and South of Labrador. This I suppose has been a big improvement. But then again, he was aided by the use of the R.C.M.P. aircraft, 1709

,June 6. 1972 Tnpe 55fi (Nieht) .TM - 1 These are mv comments, Mr. Chairr::,.an. Perhaps the honourable minister would feel free to answer. 11f::_J!].;..CK..~~,: May I nnswer these questions when we come under the item "RCMP.1' t~~~-}'LtJl2_0~: Mr. Chai man, I do not know if T nm in order now dealing with the magistrntes but the. honourable member for Placcntin Ea.st deviated from the heading nnd the item called. T airee with :my colleapue from Lnhrador North on lep:nl nid. I do not think there is sufficient pnh1icity given to whnt is available to manv of our people as far as legnl aid is concerned.

Tt is not more than two or three weeks ngo 1 had a man anproach me from fo_eo District and he was quite concerned because he had to appear before the magistrate and he wanted to pet n lawyer. I said, "Well. why do vou not anply to the legal aid." He said, "Legal aid, what is that? 11 The man never heard of i.t and I do not think our Justice Department, I do not think our map:istrates. I do not think they are doinr a very good .iob in explaining to the people exactly what is available to ther.1. as far as legal aid is concerned. Rut th;i.t is just in passing, Mr. Chairman.

What I intended to rise for was to ask the honourable minister if he hns given nny thought to re-instatinf'. or nppointinc a r.iar,istrate in the Fogo District or the Twillinrate District. Now for yc:irs there was a magistrate stationed at Twillingate hut for some reason or other t believe the services were withdrawn and the people from that area Foro, Twillingate, Green Bay and all rlown to LaSci.e anrl Mnybe as far as Harbour Deep in the bottom of White Bay have to tr.avel,if they have to appear before a magistrnte they have to travel all the way to Gander. ::'\~. }iON. }~,!:!_BER: Springdale has a magistrate.

MR. WINSOR: Springdale has a magistrate. Fine, I am glad to know it 1710

June 6, 1972 Tn~e 556 (Night) but nevertheless I do not know if there was ever one stationed on Fog.o Island before. The honourable member for Fortune mav be ah le to tell us whether he had to anpear beforP. n magistrate <luring his brin~ing-uri days or r,rowinf' un dnvs in that nrca, but T do T): recall. tfR.J:;_1\_RLE: I never hnd that nrivilege. MR. WINSOR: Never had that nrivilege well I think that is one to his credit. But, Hr. ChaiIT1nn, in Twillinruite there wns always a magistrate stationed at Twillingn.te I think prior to the commission of G:wernment davs and l:i.ter than that.

MR~ HICKMAN: Almost to 1960 when Mr. Curtis,. the member for Twillingate, withdrew the ma~istrute. JM - 2 MR. WINSOR: He withdrew it. WE.1.11, shame on him. Rut nevertheless I think it is about time now thnt the honourahle minister should take note nnd reconsider the avpointment of a magistrate either at Twillingate or Fogo.

Now if the honourable minister says tl1at the work load there is not sufficient to justify the placing of a mai:!istrate either at one or the other places,! would say the member for Twillingate and maybe the member for so~e other pnrt of that area of Green Bay have the honour to represent the most law nbidi~g citizens of this province. Ml{._:,. __ G}_LI:.ET"-':,: Mr. Chairman, I had not intended to µet into thfs debate either because that is like my colleague, the honourable menber for Fogo, we know so little about the law that we should keep away from it as much as nossible.

Rut when he mentioned a map.::istrnte at Fogo and Twillingate it seems to me that there was always a magistrate at Fogo years ago~ HR. HICKMAN, I cannot remember but I thoup:ht there was. MR. GILLETT: Magistrate Scott was there for years. But Twillinvate MJ.ways hnd a mar:istrate and he was. in most cases, a resident of 1711

June n. 1972 Tane 556 (Night) Twillingate. Skipper Frank Roberts after he retired was iriade a ma~istrate but vou sec we are nll God-fearinr-, law-abiding citizens down there. So eventually the magistrnte, the last n:igistrate we had T supoose was Magistrate Hc1.1sh. I remember Mar;ist:rate Wa] sh tellinr: me that most of the work that he was doing was fixing un tmernr1oyment insurance papers nn<l what not for people. actualJy JM - 3 no concrete cleriC'nl work. rn.:.ir,istP.rinl clerical worl:. TodPv we have th(' services once a month, t believe it Ls. of Magistrate White from f'nnder.

He comes out and goes t0 the Orange l!all. Our court house was burned, as you know, and we are hoping to get another one. I h.1.ve this to hrint! before the 2overnment if and when the time is rirht. But he comes out once a month and most of the cases. T would sav. are traffic cases. The RCMP must he onP of the hi~gest collectors nf revenue for the province but most of the cases now I would say nre traffic cases. Recently we hnve had a cnnsiderahle amount, fnr, far too mnny I 1~e1 ieve, casefi of school tax.

This is somethinr that I think is poin~ to have to be changed and people on welfare and what not have been sumr:mns for their school tax. However. this is all lam goinp: tn hnv£> tn sav. ).fr. Chairman, because T think it has been very well covered particularly bv our learned friends. This is an expression 1 have lcnrned since I came here thnt a. lawyer :is a learned friend. But t iust did want to speak on behalf of Twillinr;ate anrl in nnswer t0 the proposition 1 1 presume put forward by my friend, the honourable menher for Fogo. Now we still hnve a residence there if you are interested, Hr. Chairman.

The United Church has it rented now nnd we have our second clerryman in it but it fitill does belong to the second. vou know, United C:hurch minister. We hnve two ministers. MR."'_~~L)"~~_Q_: Mr. Chairman. before we move on, I think that we should 1712

Jun~ 6. 1972 Tape 556 (Nic:ht) set the record straight. Hy honourah.lc frien<l from Rell Island he seemed to take onto himself the credit for re all v the formation and the instigation of legal nid in this province. ~fow he mav have done a lot of thinr.s but he hnd as much to do with ei.thcr r­ formation or the i1"lplementat1on of legal aid in this province as he had to do with the last moon mission. I can speak with some de~ree of knowledge on the legal aid because I had somethin~ to do with it. I have everv reason to believe that as knowleµeable as he is in various fields that he did not play toohip a

part in that last moon mission. Now he JH - 4 plnyecl the same part as far as ler:al aid in this province is concerned and if he really wants to help the needy of this province and help people who are in need of representation in the courts and le1rnl advice, T certainly sugpest to him that the proper way would be to support the efforts of ever;one concerned in trvin~ to obtain legal aid for the people of the province. Whether the lawyers in the Justice Department or the lawyers :mvwhere do it, it does not matter that much to rne. I do not mind and 1 am sure the i713

June 6, 1972 Tape 557 (night) PK - 1 HR. ALYWARD: Law Society, all they want to see is these individuals entitled to legal aid. Now to equate the question of legal aid with the legal fees prohahly gives him a great topic fi';r a debate and he may certainly steal a few headlines hut, Mr.--~hairman. I say that is very. very cheap. If we are debating legal aj_d and he understands the i.ssues involved, I th.ink, he should confine his remarks to these issues. Now the matter mentioned hy the honourable member, I think it was Labrador North 1 about ler,al aid heing just for St. John 1 s.

I agree entirely with his remarks and in fact when the programme was !mpliFlented that was one thinp we tried to make clear that legal aid would not be something just for St. John I s and Corner Brook. But as everyone who knows anything about Newfoundland knows that the highest concentrations of populations are St. John's and Corner Rrook and as a result of course la,;ryers settled at Corner Hrook and at f:t. John's. He have two legal aid offices there. But in no way whatsoever was the plan restricted say to the Avalon Peninsula nor to the immediate vacinity of Corner Brook.

But the fact that the lawyers are there of course, you know~ explains that probably people receiving legal aid, the most of them live within the area of the legal aid office. But for your information 1 will say that all requests come from various parts of the province and they nre handled by mail and everythinr. else. Now the other question you mentioned which was a very, very good one and this was. you know do the people in all the outports of Newfoundland know what service is available.

I agree entirely with him that a great number of them, in fact larp.:e numbers of them do not. tt myself, felt that even the magistrates did not know what service Ls available. So we had mimeographed the plan and the programme and had it distributed to all the magistrates. I asked the map:istrates myself 1714

June 6, 1972 Tape 5 S7 (night) PK - 2 HR.

Al,)'WARD: in a letter if any important case came before them, where a person is charged with a serious type of offense and they felt that they reqnired lep:al aid, even if they did not know enough about the plan 1 to contact the office and try to ascertain whether the individual hirn~;elf qualified. ~owe have c 1 rcularized the magistrates and in fact the President of the magistrates, the Association of the ~iapistrates, Pr. t!icks phoned me and asked me to address the convention of the magistrates that will be held here in St. -1ohn's at the end of the month to explain the matter to them.

In this way, we try to get across, you know, to the magistrates the programme as it is. But ·pe nre only scratching the surface. J menn do not let nnyone get the idea that even if w·e provide more money for the plan as it is presently constituted, we are d1,ing n:ll that much. We 3re still on!; scratching the surface as far as P1int they are doing Jn other provinces. T do not propose to delay you any further on this, Hr. Chairman. 'MR, HARVEY: ~peaki11r of leral aid, Hr. Chairman, I would like to make reference to how that pertains to the people I represent in Labrador South.

I would have to afree with my colleague from Lahrador North that legal aid, I do not know if he went as far as I t.:111 go in sayinp- that leral aid is prohnhly a word that we have not even heardllet alone how it 0perates or function!'l,in some areas of Lahrador fiouth. We have no lawyer in Lahrador South. No magistrate. No courthouses. Tn fact - AN 110N. ME~fBER: tnaudihle. MR. HARVEY! Well. I do not know. if you wanted and I will go into this, I have a note here for that later.

We have two R.C.N.P officers. one stationed in Cartwright and one stationed in the Straits Area not an adequate numher of officers for an area of 40n miles stretching from Rigo let in the ~;"orth down tn L'Anse-au-Clair in the South. The R.C.P.P. officer in Cartwrip.ht has to cover an area from Cartvright 1715

June 6, 1972 Tape 557 (night) PK - 3 M_!t. HARVEY• goinf north to Rigolet, n distance of about ninety miles to the north dmtn s:1uth he has to go to Black Tickle, Chnrl11ttetown and Port Hope Simpson, a possihle distance of another 21"Jf! miles covering five or six communities. If you had some reason to bring a charge against somebody or sornehody had broken the law,I would think that by the time the officer had Rotten there, you know, you would have forgotten what the charge was. nut there i~ a need, a definite need for more polic:inr: of the Labrador Coast.

T could go on to say that T know a utan who was charp,_ed with an offense sometime last winter and this J;Jan is assumed, J suppose guilty.Until breakup until he can come out to court somewhere on the islanri of Newfoundland or until the judr-es go in there. Jam not quite sure what happens. Rut Tam sure it is not regular, on a regular bases. This is something that could happen, Mr. Chairman. that a man could he arrested or whatever the case might be and is assumed hy the community guilty until proven innocent. It should be the other way arolmd. I am not sure what has happened now, I have not followed it up.

But it comes that way, it happens that way in a community. MR. CHAIRMAN: ---------· Order! With respect to matters which are presently before the C'"'Urts. t think, it is out of order to discuss the matter until the court has dealt with the matter. If I understand the honourable member correctly and to forestall the question of the other honourable member, this is a present case you are referring to? 'MJl.·~1.!:~B.YEY: I did not identify any case, Mr. Chairman.

I am just saying that somebody that I knew this winter, it was an example that I was using. no specific case. nut this could happen in •either one of the communities along the Labrador Co;rnt, as we have no resident magistrate or courthouse or lawyer to in fact bring this man to justice and to prove 1-1hether he was guilty or innocent. Like I have said 1 it is 1716

June 6, 1()72 Tape 557 (nirht) PK ~ 4 MR. HARVEY: reversed• It seems that in a small community that if you are arrested for some offense and not tried and not proven innoccnt 1 then you are guilty until you are proven innocent 1 which i.s the exact reverse of what the law stands for here.

I would certainly agree with, like 1 have said. mv honoural 1 le colleague from Lahrador North said. we do need some more rolic~11r: of our comnmnities on a regular basis, probably sometui1,g set up through the ~!inister or Justice Department and more knowlerlge r:iore knowledp:e p;iven to the rural areas on the legnl aid programree. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, before you carry 712-01, during my brief stay as Acting Minister of Justice there was some pretty urgent inquires made to me hy some of the staff down in the Supreme Court concerning salaries and inadeqvacy of salaries and the inability to p,et proper staff, in a very lonp. letter from a very estee-med rentleman Hr. "'-fercer the Registrar of the Court which the hon0urable minister has probably seen. I am wondering if the honourable minister has taken any further action or has he hnd an opportunity to do so with a view to straif,!'hteni.np: out not a mess as such but a situation which i717

June 6~ 1972. Tape 558 Page. L certainly needs some looking i to 1 think with regard to salaries, extra staff and this sort of thing. MR.HICKY.AN: l'-1r. Chairman, there were two or three b,:anches of the department -I do not knOh' what the ;10rd is, 1 was going to say '1iscrirninated against it is hardlv so hut the reclassification 11 I know very little about it, how the reclassification conmittee moved. I do knm"' thnt in certain hranches of the Denartrr.ent of Justice thc;e was no consultation with the Head of the Branch in trying to access the vo.lue of the services rierformed.

There were several inequities and as far as I know we have them nll cleared up,except one. that one will be tnken care of. There is an appeal procedure.Hopefully NR.HELLS: Mr. Chairman, there is Romething I would like to ask the minister. If in this 712 - 01 Supreme Court salaries does that i.nclude the salaries of bailiffs un in the she.rift$ office? I supnoew it does. Are there any p~:. •• s to incr,~ase the number of ba.iliffs in that office, 1 think at the moment we have two~ if I am not mistaken.

There wo1•ld seem to be room for at least one other or possibly two because there is considerable delay sometimes in the service 1 it seems in the St. John I s area, to say nothing about outside, because of course of fl c0ns t11cral,l0 number of writs issued out nf the district court is well. The same bailiffs have to serve all these processts and sometimes w:i.th de.layH of even a month or two. MR.HIC,MA.~: Yes, Hr. Chairman, the Treasury Board has apnroved another post for a bailiff for the sheriffs office. On motion total subheads 712, 713 carried~ Subhead 714. MR.WELLS: Hr.

Chairmnnt a question of the Minister. In preliminary remarks I did not get into this whole business of magistrates and their salaries because that is the subject matter of the Steele Royal Commission. But I nottce here, of course, the increase in the 1972-73 estimate over 1971-72. This of course is salaries.Tam wondering if it now is the practise 1718

June 6, 1972. TApe 558. Pa~e 2. for the magistrates or their associat { ,,n to negotiate with the department on the subject of salaries or is it still based on the increnent svstem? MR.HICKMAN: ~fr, Chairman, it is not based on the incremental - I do not lq10w which context the honourable member used the word 1 'negotiate'.' I think the honourable member for White Bay South wi~l know what I mean when I say that the magistrates associations are not riuiet on that question of salaries. The salaries nnw, there was an increase granted since the House last met.

The salary scale for magistrates at this time is on the - $10,644 to $14,268 iHthin that stat.us .,that is right. That was not a step raised the last one,that was a general raise for the magisterial service. The legally trained magistrates are on the scale $13~584 to $18,192 Again there are steps - I th 1 nk it should also be pointed out that magistrates live in government houses at a subsidized rent of $35 a month. This is not to say that magistrates are adequately paid, We still pay I believe the lowest salar:'.es to magistrates anywhere in Canada.

While I am on my feet on that,one thing that I have done since I have assumed this portfolio again is to reactivate the programme of training magistrates in law schools, those who have the undergraduate qualifications for admission. I am somewhat distHrbed, I do not say this in a critical sense,because of a critical situation that is arising,that the programme was not continued. with the two years we have lostt they have put us in a bit of a spot. Fortunately 1the firnt magistrate,who have gone through on that programme, Magistrate Scott,graduated last month from Dalhousie Law School with very high marks indeed.

He has now returned and will be re-entering the map:esterinl service. He has never left the service. ttagistrate Trahey has completed h~s .::;econd year and there will be another magistrate going thls year. I think of the magistrates !n·esently in the service, we have exhausted those now available to go. The law school has Leen most cooperative 1719

June 6, 1972. Tape 558. Page J. bearing in mind they have something like 600 or 700 or Gore than that, ~00 applications at least this year for Dalhousie Law School, which means you practically have to have strairht "A I s" to get in, They 11:,v, heen very good, they will take any magistrate this province sends who has Oad two or three vears of Arts, as a mature studenL They are doing very 't..ell. There will be, we have vacancie,- in the mat;isterial service. Rfr,ht! Harbour Breton, is vacanL Placentia will hecorre vacant. I '-'Oulcl say within the next few weeks. The magistrate is on an extended time.

He has heen extended once. I am told that one of the St. John 1 s magistrates will go on pension this year although he has not advised us officially. St. Anthony is without a magistrate. He was moved to Bonne Bay and the Bonne Bay magistrate was moved to Corner Brook. The maH in Bonne Bay is now going to Law School. So there are four or five We advertised - the advertisements have been runnin~ I would say about every six months for the last three years,for magistrates. We ran advertisements calling for applications, not only in New­ foundland, we ran them across the way too for legally trained magistrates.

Ile have appointed one, Magistrate Coombs who is a graduate, I would anticipate that we may have another. Then we ran advertisements calling for applications from men or women with tmdergraduate degrees. I would say we have received i.n the vicinity of 100 applications from people in that cate1mry. What I am hoping to do there - the plan is that the senior officials in my department will very carefully go through all thesepas they have already started to with these applications. We wi.11 get them down to about twenty.

Then I would hope to refer these twenty applications to the Board of Recommendations; not quite in their turn of reference but they have indicated they would be prepared to go through them. 1720

June 6, 1972 Tape 559 NB - l MR. HICKMAN: The Chairman is the Deputy Minister of Justice, The two nominees of the Benchers are Mr. Sterlinig and Hr. Phalen. The lawyer with less than five years' practice is the chairman. The Corner Brook lawyer, the present lawyer, is Mr. Poole. AN HON MEMBER: Edward Poole? MR. HICKMAN: Yes, Edward Poole. A.~ HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: I think. You recall the terms the way they were set up It is an excellent board.

There is one thing that I commend them for is there were certain recommendations in their hands,made for consideration three months ago and they kept it confidential :ts a board must. This is the way I would like to see it. But I would hope, Mr. Chairman, that there will be some appointments four or maybe five new magistrates soon, I am getting a little anxious over the delay in getting this through. We had to run the add a second time. There was a misprint or something in salary and we had to start all over again. But I am kind of anxious to get this done.

It is not fair to magistrates to move them after school opens in September, I am anxious to get these men appointed and get some training before the shuffle starts. I will be discussing that at the magistrates convention next week. MR. ROBERTS: A moment or two ago he said he was going to make some further reference to St. Anthony. I know that there was an undertaking given by the Deputy Minister insofar as the Deputy Minister can give an undertaking that St. Anthony would have a magistrate. There will be one there when the new crop or crops is that the word? AN HON. MEMBER: Is the house all right now? MR.

ROBERTS: I do not think so, Mr. Chairman unless something has happened to the house. It is still,in most sense ·- the last magistrate we had permanently stationed at St. Anthony, before magistrate Langdon, was magistrate Scott, who went on to greater things after, teaching the physical education at 1721

June 6, 1972 Tape 559 Prince of Wales. Obviously that was not his fort. AN HON. MEMBER: He was a better magistrate. AN HON. MEMBER: He was a failure. NB - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Right! He is a better magistrate I can assure you that teaching the physical education was like trying to educate the hon. minister. A difficult task. One could only give him credit for trying. But the important point is that there will be one in St. Anthony. AN HON. MEMBER: I guess you are going to have to do some work on that house. MR. ROBERTS: I think, Mr. Chairman, the Administration should do some work on the house. St.

Anthony has a dreadful housing shortage. Medical are always looking for houses for doctors. The house is not adequate. It is really quite old. ! think it goes back to commission time, or perhaps even earlier. But, something needs to be done. The IGA in the past provided housing, but all I hear from them consistantly is their shortage of housing so forth and so forth. So I do not think we can count on them. MR. W. ROWE: Two points, Sir, before we move on. One a statement~ oae a question.

We might have on this side of the House, when we were in power there might have been a certain tendency to be a little more friendly to your friends when certain appointments were being made. For example QC's. But! do not think and perhaps the hon. Leader could correct me if I am wrong, I do not think we ever sank to the level where the President of our party was on a Board of Recommendations AN HON. MEMBER: Oh that is terrible! MR. W. ROWE: Oh now, terrible! AN HON. MEMBER: You should better check with the Law Society on that. They were making the recommendations, remember. MR. W.

ROWE: The Board of Recommendations, Sir AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. W. RO~ I asked the hon. minister if his Board of Recommendations was continued. He said yes. So I am assuming that he has continued it in full force. You know, the way that we had. The idea was that this Board of 1722

June 6, 1972 Tape 559 NB - 3 Recommendations would make recommendations to the government. Now is the hon. minister saying that the 1.aw Society nominated him, or the government nominated this particular gentleman? MR. HICKJ1A.'4: The Law Society nominated two, One had to be frc; Corner Brook and one under five years. MR. ROBERTS: So, there were four. Two were nominated by the Law Society Mr. Sterling and Mr. Phalen and two were selected by the government. Is that what happened? That is what we understood. MR. HICKMAN: I understood that Mr. Poole was appointed by the government.

MR ROWE: Perhaps the minister could check into it. I am assuming, in the failing of other evidence to the contrary, that the government's nominee on the board is Mr. Poolq,who is the president of the Progressive Conservative Party, and who makes recommendations to the government, which is getting a little dodgey, Mr. Chairman. I must say for a clean,Mr. Clean Minister, Mr. Clean Government, now, Mr. Chairman, all coming in full of idealism, never going to resort to patronage nor anything like that, you would think, Mr.

Chairman, they would have kept their skirts a little cleaner for 3 decent interval anyway, at least until the burial was over. Sir, obviously as soon as the previous administration died, they immediately started. But I just make that point, }fr. Chairman. We will probably have an opportunity in the future to make similar points, I am sure, on other matters. The question I wanted to ask is; what restrictions or constraints have the government imposed upon magistrates who have gone through law school at public expense and then came back to go into the magistracy again?

What restrictions to keep them from going out into practice? You know, this is going to be very attractive for magistrates to go into practice, I would submit. MR. HICKMAN: I am sure khe honourable member has seen the _contract. Thrv are under a contract. I cannot vouch for magistrate Cramm because he left after I did. Magistrate Scott is under a contract that he must come back and serve in the magisterial service or in any other appointment that the 1723

June 6, 1972 Tape 559 NB - 4 minister may deem necessary~ l wish we had a few more lawyers kicking around now for the Cro·wn side 1in the department too. 1 think it is for a term of, I was going to say ten years. I know it is a minimum of five years. My theory at least is that if you hnve a man who has been in the public service ,such as magistrate Scott for twenty odd years~and he is now, my guess is 47 years of age, by the time he is 52 or 53 it is highly unlikely that he is going to give up his pensionable service to go. and if he does well that is a calculated risk.

I do not appreciate the comment with respect to Mr. Poole. MR. W. ROWE: I am sorry if the hon. minister does not. MR. HICK.11AN: No, I do not. Th~re ha,:r, teen an awful lot of questions put to me as to why I have not put an end to certain retainerships that have still been going on that are very 1 very political in their nature and they are still there and I have not done it. Mind you that is fair game. While I am on that 1 and this is not government policy because nobody bought it to the attention of the governmentt I rather like the system that is followed by the Government of Canada very assiduously.

I do not really call it patronage that for the ordinary work that is to be done that any lawyer who has his degree 1s competitent to do, I believe we should look very carefully at the practice followed I am surethat members on the other side will not agree with it now. »ut there is a whole list given to them of lawyers. Let them, the commissions nnd the others, make their own choice rather than dishing it out. But in so far as Corner Brook was con­ cerned, bearing in mind the seniority of the lawyers out there,I was very anxious to have another 1724

,Jun£' 6. 1°72. Tnpe 560, Pnge l -- apb Nip:ht. junior menhcr of the Bnr on that cor1n:ission. It was not done without consultation with the lawyers in Corner Brool', or some of ther:i. There t-ms no obiection, in fact the onlv expressl.on I received froP Corner Rrool· nnd from t},e twn maior fJrms the.re vns that they were nsther ,rlensed with thP appointnent. he is a verv nnture v;,n nnd n ¼<fy pood. excellent lawyer. (Inaudible) Ripht, he happens to be an excellent lawyer. On rriotion, total suhhead 714, cnrried. Item 715~·01 1'11 • NEAPY • ···----· Mr.

Chninn:1n, 1 wou]d like to asY the minister if they have n social worker nt Her ~3 n_icsty's T'en::ltentiary now'? This v,as alwavn one of the minister 1 !'. cornnlaints when he was on this side of the House. ~--· HICDfAN· }fy complaint? t-~. NEARJ.: Well, somebody on this side, I thoupht it was th(' hon. minister. If thev do not hnvf> a social worker there, Ls :i.t the minister 1 s intention to an-point one in the foreseear'le futur1c? I wUJ find out the answer and give it before we clrse. if I nav revert hacY. to it at the end. NP._ ROBERTS: Pr.

Chairman. 0n the total, would the minister care to sny - 1 notice every Hem in the e(mipment and supplies for the nenetentinry and the inils is rlotm or is the same,with th@ excention of one which is increased by $15,0170 from $10,000 to $25,000 anrl" that is 03-05 industries and voc;itiona1. Are the eovcrns".1.ent planninp some fairly maior - :it 5s ol-sviouslv an increase over lnst yenr, $25,000 is stiJ 1 not a p-rent deal of Monev. but -would the winister c~re to say anything on thnt point? 715-03-05, industries and vocnticnal. It is probahly one of the, V1ore noteuorthy aspects, the rest is houseVeeninr.

Thnnl~ you so nuch. FR·~ JWBFRTS · 1725

June 6, 1972, Tane 560, PAp,c 2 ~- apb :'1f,_._]~JfKMAl'£:_ The incrense is proposed for prisoners pav to bring prisoners in line with the other provincial prisoners. This was the amendnent th,1t we put throuph to the Act the other d.:w, where for certain activities - not that they are goin? to vet p;dd full-,tire salary for beinf! in the penitentinry, but they will get paid for certa:tn work. AN HON. ~TF'.PBER • Pensionahle? - ---·~--~---~-- .. :'fR. PICKPAN: -----·------ Not pensionable.

I realize, under the he<1-dinr: of total, 1 was hoping that sornehody Hould ask r.ie alnmt the construction and alterations to the venitentinry. MP. POBERTS, I will ask the Minister about thnt. -- -~·-- ' -- - PR. EICKVAN: ~ --- ··- - -- - We are at lonj! lnst, r' am very pleased to announce this. we are !!Ding to build the gyrnnatorium at the penitentinry this year This has been a - it was in last year's vote nnd there was some - I do not know what happened.

I recall askinp- the then minister vhat it was for and there was an exchange over here and someone said it was for locks of somethinr:~ in nny event, it is being done this year. Ve will get more thnn $142,000 worth of buildings out of that money. It is goinr_ to be a concrete block structure, the imr.ates l<dll be doing "-:orne of the work. the Trades Collepe have offered to co-operate in certain supervisory capacities and the Department of Public Works. With a bjt of luck it should be completed by the end of this year. Thank you for asking. ?,1P. ROBFRTS: --~-·-~--- !·fR.

Chairman, now thn t I have asked the minister, let me take a step further on the total and ask if the erection of the gymnatorium_ really they must find a better word. It is like something out of Auschwitz or Dachau you know, gymnatorium. Are there any plans or where do we stand on this perennial question of the new penitentiary? Putting ~150,flOO into the present institution i.s a relatively suhstantial investment, warranted I agree, hut relatively substantial. Where <lo we stand on it? I do not want to ~o on, I can go through it at length, but maybe that is not necessary right nov.

Could the minister ~ive us soree 1726

June 6 1 1972, Tape 560, Par:c 1 -- nvb Night. indication of the administration's thinking. Do they plan to continue the present institution indefinitely? Is there some pl.an to provide a new institution~ if so, what kind? I would sur:pest and submit that it perhaps should be a medium or nerhans a minirrium security inst-ftution as -opposed to the present one, which I believe would be I suppose niecliun tending towards maxi.mum security. Can I raise apain the questi.on of the Archambault recomnendation? Is this being pressed with Ottawa?

The whole question. have Ottawa responded at all or are WC' still in the unfortunate trap that we have been in for years? The min:i.ster wish to say something, but I wonder - I will r;ive him the opportunity anyway of saying what he wants. $150,noo is a fair nrnount of money, is it an indication of the fact that the present 'pen' will continue to serve its present purpose for a numPer of years? !-IR. 1IICliJ,,.AN: I thank the hon. Leader of the Oppositi.on for remindinp.; me of that. He was out of thP. House when I indicated the correctional commission be appointed on the Federal - Provincial •.. 'ff'.

ROBFRTS · I have heard~ HP--__ l_IICK}1J\N: Yes, so obviouslv there will not be any policy decisi.on made re the. penitentiary until t-:e find out from then orecisely what they have in mind. The building of this gymnatorium should certainly not be i.nterpreted as being a policy decision on the part of government to maintain the present penitentiary forever. To start off with,it is in the wrong location. He should not have a penitentiary i.n the centre of the city. It should not hP prov:i.ding the ki.nd of medium - maximum security, I do not think that is really nec:essary.

He are not.as the committee is aware any prisoner serving a sentence of two years or more passes out of our jurisdicti.on and is taken over by thP 'Feds' and is tnl·en to l)orchester. The commission that the hon. Leq<ler of the Opposition referred to, the federal commissfon th,:lt reco:n.rnended n chanre in sentencing nolicy which 1727

June 6, 1972. Tape 560, Page 4 -- apb Night. was conditional upon the Government of Canada building medium security penitentiaries in various parts of Canada. AN HON. Pn.fJ3ER: They have a couple. 1'-1R. HICKMAN: Springhill is finished and I thinJ- there is one in British Colunbia. Py recollection is, it is nurcly recollectior.. that the cost of these institutions escalated lleyond all expectation and when the then Solicitor General departed, Nr. Pennell, his successor called a halt, which is unfortunate. The Deputy Pinister from rny dernrtment went up at my reauest last v:eet· to tnke a look at Springhill.

He reports that in his opinion the Sprinr:hill institution is capable now of taking care of many of our needs. They have first­ class prog.rammes that you cannot 1728

June 6, 1972 Tape_no. 561 1 - HRW Mr. Hickman. possibly implement in a penitentiary where the average stay I think is twonnnths. It is still very much up in the air. That is about the only thing I can tell the committee at the present time. On motion total Subhead 715, carried. MR. ROWE (W.N.): The question of fees, expense of witnesses, i.e., which we have already passed, 1urors 1 fees and other expenses - what is the present fee paid in respect of those people? I am sure it is too low. I am sure that people are out-of-pocket,which they should not be. MR. HICKMAN: It is too low. It is $4. HR.

ROWE (W.N.): Is it the intention of government to incre.ase that or is it the minister's intention? MR. HICKMAN: Obviously, it is not my intention this year, with that vote. MR. ROWE (W.N.)! Cannot it be done by legislation? HR. HICKMlu"l: No, no it does not have to be done by legislation. The vote this year is not the same as last year. HR. ROWE (W.N.): There are other ways. MR. HICKMAN: Yes there are. I really had not given it any thought. The honourable member is quite right when he says that the fees being paid to jurors at this time are incomparably low, Grand Falls and Corner Brook in particular.

You have a man who is working on shifts in a mill and he has to go and serve on jury duty for $4. MR. ROWE (W.N.): A man loses a week 1 s work because of it. HR. HICKMAN: Oh, yes if he gets involved in a lengthy cr,iminal case, he could lose a week's work. ,It is all very well to give great speeches to people that have been privileged and honoured to be called upon to serve as a juror and stand between the oppressed and the oppressor. 1729

June 6, 1972 Tape no. 561 Page 2 MR. ROWE (W.N.): It is more of a privilege if you do not starve in the meantime. MR. HICKMAN: That is right, all of which is very fine but at the same time you should not starve in the process. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, is it not a fact that some one on weekly pay, rather than hourly pay, receive their pay anyhow? Is there something on the employer that he was obliged to release the employee to serve on this? HR. ROWE (W.N.): There are problems - MR. MURPHY: Hourly pay, I can understand. _MR. ROWE (W.N.): Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry.

Your Honour was a little quicker than 1 was. It is an old question again and perhaps the minister might give us some indication. Are we going to have a Foreigners Act? .!JR. HICKMAN: No! MR. ROBERTS: Maybe the minister would like to think about it. We will be here another year. I assume he will be there another year. We will ask him about it then. MR. HICKMAN: Okay, thank you. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) MR. ROWE (U.N. ): On 13, Mr. Chairman, does the department have a certain number of claims outstanding? I mean hw can you estimate ? There are two claims outstanding and this is the estimate for them. _MR.

HICKMAN: Outstanding for two years. MR ROWE: Well why is that? Who is the board? MR HICKM.At'l: The board is Mr. Herbert Morgan, Q.C., Chairman, Thomas O'Rielly, S. O'Neill, Frank O'Dea ( I am pretty sure it is Frank O'Dea) MR ROBERTS: Why have the claims been outstanding? MR. HICKAMN: Do not ask me. MR. ROWE (W.N.): I mean is it the committee's fault or the ~overnment's fault? 1730

June 6, 1972 Tape no. 561 Page 3 HR, HICKMAN: Oh, no the committee was only appointed within this past - iust after I assumed office, This was brought to my attention. There are two claims now that have been there for some time. MR. ROWE (W,N,): (Inaudible), MR. HICKMAN: l do not know if we should debate that arn•w :" or not because it is still subject to adjudication, I would not like the committee to get the idea that it is like the British schools that there is a $15,000 limit for two claims.

These are the only two and the act was proclaimed I think in 1969 or in 1968 • . .!lR, ROBERTS: (Inaudible) HR, HICKMAN: There was a decision made - I know what the hon. Leader of the Opposition is referring to. Two or three years ago there was a decision made to have this Workmen's Compensation Board,was it not, deal with it on an ad hoc basis. MR, ROBERTS: I know. I know. MR. HICKMAN: That is what it was. MR~ ROBERTS: Principles were to be followed assessing 1 once you assumed liability ,in assessing the measure or the quantum of damage.

HR, !!I CKMAN : But anyway they are entrain now and let us hope that that vote ia adequate. MR. ROBERTS: Very interesting. Are counsel allowed to appear before the board? HR, HICKMAN: Yes, HR. ROBERTS: Very interesting. On motion total Subhead 716, carried. HR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, if I may, 718-01, l want to get into this matter of province-wide representation by the constabularly.again. I have spoken about it for many years. I would like at this time to pay tribute to the constabularly for the part they have played in the 1731

June 6, 1972 Tape no. 561 Page 4 Boys Club, the contribution they have made. I have argued over t