VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, MARCH 10, 1980 NO. 7

March 10 , 1980 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No.227 EL - 1 Order, please! I am sure hon. members would like to ~o-:elctlme to the galleries today a delegation from the town of !iarbour Breton. liON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Also another warm welcome to a visitor in the gallery, Patricia Preston of Calgary, who is the Calgary YWCA woman of the year, an executive member of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women and who was recently the guest speaker at the Provincial Status of Women council's Conference in Grand Falls. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) And I wish to bring to the attention of all hon. members that today is being observed as Commonwealth Day throughout the forty-two sovereign states which comprise the Common­ wealth and as we observe the occasion of Commonwealth Day it is my belief that this group of nations, with its time honored traditions, rich diversities and strong sense of community, will continue, through its parliamentarians, to inspire and provide leadership in their pursuit of new, co-operative and mutually beneficial relationships among states of the inte~ationaf community. AN. HON. MEMBER: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) ~!R . G . O'l'TENHEIMER: Hear, hear! Well said. Or well read. The hen. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, if I may, I would like to move, I am sure, seconded by hen. gentlemen opposite that a message of condolence be sent to the widow of the late Mr. Justice H.G. ~u~~- ester. As hen. members are probably aware, Mr.

Justice Puddester, who had a very distinguished career at the Bench and Bar of this Province, 5erved durin"' Commission of Government as Secretary of Justice and served also as Deputy Minister for the Department of Justice after Confederation. was also lea!ll advisor to the deleqation which went to Ottawa in neg- otatio., of the Te:::ms of Union on Newfoundland's entry into Confed- 609

~ ~!arc:-t 10, 1980 Ta9e No. 227 EL - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: ation and, of course, was also a Judge of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland. I know that han. members indeed 1 would unanimously wish our condolences to be expressed to the widow of the late Mr. Justice PUddester. MR. SPEAKER -(Siiiiii!S): Belle Isle. :v.R . E. ROBE .l'!l' S: The han. the member of the Strait of Mr. Speaker 1 in the absence of my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, may I simply say that we on this side would wish to become associated wi .th the remarks of the Minister of JUstice. Mr.

Justice Puddester 1 s passing was sudden and most unexpected and I know a great blow to the legal fraternity and, of course 1 particularly to his family. The Minister of Justice outlined the late Judge Pudeester 1 s career Which was one of distinction, of great service to the law and of great service to this Province. He was 610

l1arch 10, 1980 Tape No. 228 D-W - 1 ~·!R. E. ROBERTS: one of the small but extremely dedicated and extremely competant group of public servants who worked with the political figures negotiating the Terms of Union. There are very few of them, if any, left in the public service now. There are, fortunately, so1re of them still alive.~he father of the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) was the financial advise~ I believe Mr .. Jim Thompson of Peat-Marwick is still alive,although I am not sure of that. Mr. Jim Channing who retired a year or so past as Clerk of the Cabinet was with the delegation and Mr.

Justice Puddester who serv~d both on the trial division and I believe was one of the first judges appointed to the Court of Appeal when that court was constituted three or four or years ago served with great distinction. we on this side, Sir, would join with the expression of sympathy to Mrs. Puddester and the members of the family including at least one of the Bar, Xr. Jamie Puddester who is prac~ising here in St. John's 1 again with great distinction. MR. SPEAKER· (Simms): Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion? Those in favour 'aye' contrary 'nay', carried. MR.

ROBERTS: Mr; Speaker. ~-- SPEAKEK: The non. me~ber for t~e ?trait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I believe the minister has a statement but before he does, I wonder - I am sure it is an oversight and it ought to have been done before because I am sure the House would want to 1 but wouid the minister care to ask that the appropriate resolutions be sent to the family of the late Mr. Curtis and the late Xr. Hefferton - AN HON. MEMBER: That was done. MR. ROBERTS: - I am sorry, they have? - And Mr. George Hicks as well? . ".N HON. :-I EMBER: Yes . MR. ROBER':'S : Then I apoloqize, I am out of touc!"' .. 611

March 10, 198 0 ~ape No . 228 ow - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The first two you referre~ to were looke~ after in the House, the other one Mr. Hicks I looked after that in any event. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS :1 R • S P E"A KE :t : MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, members will recall that last week I informe~ the House that the basis upon which the Department of Justice ~eci~es to initiate a police investi- gation is founded on three principles: (

l) The decision ~ust ~e based upon a professional assessment of the information available; (2) - it really follows inevitably from the first - No police investigation will be ordered because t~ere is pressure to do so: and

(3) No police investigation will be denied because there may be pressure to so do. Members will recall as well that I informed the House last week that officials of the Depart­ ment of Justice had requested from the Auditor ~eneral's office a copy of all relevant documentation in his possession referring to paragraphs 27 and 28 of his"Report to the House of Assembly. These files were received by the Department of Justice last Thu~sday afternoon and officials of the depart­ ment examined the files over the last three days.

Based upon the information avail­ able to the department in the files received from the Auditor General's office, the Department has ordered an investigation by the B.C.M.P. into the matters raised by the Auditor General in paragraphs 27 and 28 of his Report. 612

~!arc!J. 10, 1980 Tape No. 229 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER [Simms) : The hon. member fer Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr • . Speaker, I would like to first of all congratulate or say how pleased I am that the Minister of Justice has seen fit to order an investigation into this matter, something that we thought should be done. It is now being done and I think it is the only recourse,reall~open to the minister and to the government at this time.

I would assume that of course,this would in no way interfere with the Premier's undertaking to see that all steps will be taken to have the monies recovered and back into the Public Treasury. Now, Mr. Speaker, if I could be only as successful in getting the Minister of JuStice to appoint a royal commission to investigate the whole spectrum of the administration of justice in this Province, indeed I would be very pleased. MR. SPEAKER: :1R. :~ORGAN : The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to bring to the attention of :his hon. aouse today my concern in connection •.ritl1 a decision made in Toronto last ~eek, in fact last:. Friday, ~y the ~orthwest:. At:.lant:.i~ Fisher ies Or9anizat:.ion, known as NA?O , t:.he de cisi on =o est:.aplish a quota of 2G,aoc metric tons Eor coc on the tail of =he G...""and 3anl<s, in an area known as (3NO) .

The decision to set the quota anc permit a Cixected :ishery on chat cod stock was mace as ! mentioned by NAFO a.sc week and I find it difficult to understand, ~-=- !:peaker, •.rhy this hiqh quota has been set ::or cod in this area ·.rhen. jest six months ago, the Federal ~~ine Scientists were recomrnendinq that the cod fishery on t.he cail of the Gran d Banks be ~losed because of ~he deplet.ion of the cod stocks in that area . !n fac:. tto lat.e:- than the month of December '79 ~~e then :ederal minister, ~~our.ced in a p:-ess release t.hat he was gravely conce:-~ed 613

~!arc~ 10, 1980 Tape No. 229 NM - 2 MR. MORG~: over the depletion of the cod stocks and he felt that a ban should continue. The setting of that quota is, in my view, a comple -te turn-around by the federal scientists. It is a -decision wh _ich leaves mcmy doubts anli questions unanswered. QUestions unanswered, for e~ample; what would it mean to the trawler fleet from our Province which fishes and provides material to the plants on the Southc;:oast, on the Burin Peninsula in particular?

Questions; for example, why in 1978 there were only 15,000 metric tons, total allowable catch in the same area, and now suddenly, despite the ban placed in the last six months, a quota of 26,000 metric tons? 61 4

~!arch 10,198 0 MR. !'\O~GAN: Tape No.230 AEI - 1 The establishment of chat quota, !'tr. Sp eaker, was made despite the face chat the Deputy Ministe r from this Pro vince, Mr. Go rdon Slade, th e Deputy Minister of Fisheries was che re as par t of Newfoundland's deleg ation. Incluced with ~r. Slade was the Fish Trades Association of our Province and the Fishermen's Un ion .

The Fish Trades ~ssociation and the Deputy Minister of the Dep artment of Fisheries were quite adamant in their oppo sition of havi ng a quot a of that size placed in tha t area,and wer e strongly opposed, boch ,in this case th e government and the Fish Trades 1 on behalf of this Provi nce, strongly oppos ed to any further allocations to the country of Spain.

Now the quota has been allo cated to five foreign countries as well as canada and they are in the follo wi ng proportions: Canada 9,800 metric tons: Cuba 850 cons: Fra nce 210 tons: Portugal 1,100 ~ons: Spain 9,000 tons; U .S.S.~. 4,340 tons; and others 700 metric cons . li~. !-lEARY: very mucn though . ~R. :-tO RGA N : Poor old cub a is not ge~ting Now, Mr. Sp eaker , this administration is stro ngly opposed to che granting of chis allocation co Spa~n, not only ~ec a use of the =ace that chat country continJee to pai ~ trawl for cod on the cail of the Gran d Sanks dur~ng the ?as t few month$ - only, Mr.

Speaker, the week oe:ore las~, Spain agree~ co w ithd~aw its illegal :ishi~g act ivity on the cai4 and nose o: t~e Gr and Sanks and the Flemish cape in order co ag ain hold talks with Canada . These calks were held las e week in To ronto desp~ce canada's reques~ that the cou nt~ y o: Spa~n wit~draw its operat~ons because t~e stoc ks wer e chen being seriously depleted. We feel that t~e Go vernment of Can ada should not be trad1ng o:f, Mr . Speaker, not be trading of:, number one, cod st ocks 615

M~rch 10,1980 T~pe No. 230 AH-2 MR. MORGA~: in che Gr~nc Banks, but more importantly, number two, trading off cod stocks f:om the Northern cod stocks off our coast to solve the fishery managemen c problems on the Grand Sanks. A~d I say trading off , Mr. Speaker, because what happened las t we ek was ,in order :or the count ry of Spain to be satisfied ,Canada decided to trade of= 7000 metric tons of Northern cod out of the so-called artificial ~oroign quota, it is an ~=~~!i=~~l ·~a ta , 25,000 met ric tons. PREMIER ?ECKFORD: In addition to the Grand 3an.<s. MR .

MORGAN: In addition to the Grand Sank trade off , Mr. Speaker, 0 t uppi ng ~ .. ~ quota and ~!locating 9,000 ~et r 1c tons from that area, in addit~on to that they traded off 7,000 metric tons from the so -called foreign allocation , w hich is an arri:ici al allocac1on, in my vi ew, of the Northern Cod zone,a furrnP.~ - ~~~ ,ecr1c tons. MR. ~E:AKY: ~R. 110RGAN: Traded off - Trad ed off to a country, Mr.

Speaker, that no longer than two weeks ago .,eL'e out there illegally ~1sh i ng, refusing to obey the North Atlantic Fisheries Organi zation which is now responsible !or che administ ~a tion and management of the scocks outside the 20 0 mile :imit; failed to obey the regula~Lon~ o! NAEO and :aL~ed to obey ~he wishes of the countr~ o! Canada. And now suddenly last F~iday despite Newfoundland's op9osi~1o n , in no unce~tain te~ms 1 from the Trade snd =rom government 616

M&rch 10, 1980 Tape 231 EC - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: ·- the federal scientists and the federal spokesmen for the federal government decided to trade off 7,000 metric tons of Northern cod and 9, 000 tons from the Grand ~s which shoul.d not even be there. In talking this morning with the Trade, Mr. Speaker, the Trade tells me that they are convinced that in less than three months time the trawlers and draggers going out from the Grand Banks, going out from the Burin Peninsula, will not have fish to catch. There are no fish out there , but the scientists suddenly decide to allocate a quota of 26,000 metric tons. MR. S.

NE~?,Y : What did they trade it off for? MR. J. MORGAN : There were only 15,000 metric tons in 1978. And, Mr. Speaker, I Ul giving .. the House more information t.'lan what is in this document here. The question is now asked and I will answer it for the information of the House. ~at was in return? MR. S • :lEA..<.Y : Yes. MR. .J. MORGAN : !4erely, Mr. Speaker, that Spain would buy 1,000 metric tons of fresh fish and 2,000 metric tons of salt fish from our country. In place of that we have to trade off all these cod stocks and see a very serious depletion. ~ow, Mr.

Speaker, our position is that we are opposed to the allocation of this amount of cod stocks to Spain, and I mentioned the reasons why. And we feel that the Government of Canada should be eX:ending its fisheries management jurisdiction to the limit of the Continental margin irrespectiv~ of distance from the shore - but to the limit of the Continental margin, which would overcome the problem we now have on the nose and tail of the Grand Banks and in the Flemish Cap area.

And Canada should be instructing all nations who fish on the Continental margin outside 200 miles that the failure to comply with the expanded fisheries management zone should result - in t.~s case, wguld result - in arrest and confiscation of fishing vessels, the catches and the gear, and the revoking of all fishing licences, which can be done by Canada, and cancelling of all quotas within the 200 mile limit for any foreign nation, 617

March 10, 1980 Tape 2.31 EC- 2 MR.. J. MORGAN: in this case, especially, Spain, plus the denial of any access to any port in ~aca, which ~ be done by the country of ~da, for any resupply of fuel, etc., or other supplies or for any other purpose. It would now appear to us 1 Mr.

Speaker, that the federal qovenuDent is beinq forced to trade off number one, 71000 metric tons of Northezn cod and number two 1 9 1000 metric tons of cod on the Grand Banks ia order to have SpaiD. merely to aqree to join the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Orq~tion and to enable "Na"ll to control countries like Spain and attempt to man.aqe the fish res .ources outside the 200 mile zone. In order to try to do ~t we trade off 9,000 plus 7,000 metric tons of our cod stocks. 61 8

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 232 so - 1 .MR. J. MORGAN : And our position, Mr. Speaker, is that we should not be tradinq off our cod stocks in order to qet an aqreement with the nations to properly manage the stocks outside the 200 mile limit. We should not have to trade off. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in concluding my statement I will say that I am meetinq tomorrow with the Fish Trades Association and obviously one of the topics we will discuss will be this very topic 1but today the Fish Trades already relayed to l!'tF. t.':eir concerns- they were at the meetinq in Toronto - because of the fact ~~ey feel that there is going to be a shortage of cod stocks in the Grand Banks in the next few months if these nations I just mentioned are allowed to fish for that size of a quota over the next six month period. So, Mr.

Speaker, I will be meeting with the federal minister as early as possible, I have to meet with the Fish Trades tomorrow to put forward our concerns to the federal minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS : .MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Hear, hear. The hon. member for Trinity - Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to assure my friend and colleaque , the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J.

Morgan) that when it comes to fishinq by foreign countries of our fishing resources in this Province, or off the Grand Banks or the Northern cod stocks or what have you, ve do, in fact, share any concern that he and his colleagues would have over over fishing or jeopardizing the stoclcs 1 particularly the cod stocks in this particular Province. But the minister, Sir, must realize,as we all do,that this is a rather complicated situation and it involves almost ancient international treaties and what have you, It is the sort of thing that is not going to be solved overnight. And this - .MR. J.

MORG1.N : It is a very, very complicated thing. There are no treaties involved • 619

March 10, 1980 MR. F. ROWE: MR. J. MORGAN: MR. F. ROWE: Tape No. 232 There are treaties involved. ~re are not. There are treaties involved. SD - 2 Now, Mr. Speaker, if I am allowed to carry on, it is a very complicated matter and the ministe _r must realize that. In readin~ tbrouqh his ministerial statement and havinq beard what he added to it, one bas to wonder whether, you know, it is, •t wish to brinq to the attention of the Houe', and, 'I find it difficlilt to understand' ,and, 'In my view', ;u1d this kind of thinq.

It is always the minister' s view or his opinion versus that of a qroup of federal scientists and what have you. So we have qot to ask ourselves the basic question, who detendnes what in fact is the status of the stocks on the Grand Banks and the Northern cod? Is it the minister without any qreat research staff or is it 1 in fact 1 the research staff and the scientists that are workinq with the federal qovermnent and some of whom, of course, have offices here in this particular Province? I stated at the beqinninq, Sir, that I do not wish at all to turn this into a political issue.

I think it is , far too serious for that and I would suqqest that the last paragraph of the minister's statement should be reread to the House of Assembly. "Sir, our concerns on this matter are now beinq relayed to the federal minister and his authorities and will be the topic for discussion at a ~neetinq to be arranqed as early as possible", 620

March 10, 1980 Ta;>e No. 233 EL - 1 MR. F. ROWE: Sir ~ so may I make the simple recommend- ation and suggestion that obviously this kind of announcement does not come right out of the blue if there is proper liason between the min­ ister and his counterpart in Ottawa 1and if there is proper liason between his officials and the officials in Ottawa and,presumably 1 this should be the type of thing that is taken up with the federal authorities prior to such announcements being made. Now, I have seen in the last session of the House of Assembly and a couple of sessions before that, Sir, a situation MR. MORGAN: MR. F.

ROWE : It is too _late now, the decision has been made. I know the decision is made but what I ~ recommending to th~ minister - MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : 1-'.R. F. ROWE: Order, please! Blame ·the minister for it. Order, please! Order, please! If the Newfoundland equivalent of Jaws could keep it closed for a while, Mr. Speaker ~ miqht MR. MORGAN: • (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Or der, please! The hon . the member 's time is expiring. ~IR. F • RO\•""E : Mr.

Speaker, over the last four or five years we saw a situation where , in my opinion, there was a com- plete breakdown with respect to ~atters concerning the fisheries be­ t~een the federal and the provincial government, in this Province , and I could only attribute it to the confrontation tactics that were used by the former Minister of Fisheries.

I would hope that this new Min­ ister of Fisheries would adopt a completely new strateqy and meet as much as possible and as often as possible with his federal counterpart , and have his officials meet 1so that we would not have this kind of a situation arising where really we are into another political scramble, another political fight. So we do share his concerns and those of the administration, but we certainly hope that this 621

Mar::h 10, 1980 Tape No. 233 EL,- 2 MR. F • .ROWE: is not the beginning of yet another series of confrontations with Ottawa when it should be done over the table, talking with officials present and having these kinds of things settled in a civilized manner. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Any further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS MR. ~PEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S, NEARY: My qt1esti.on is for the hon. the Prem- ier, Sir. In view of the fact that Mr. Allan J.Beesley, and I might say 1 .l'.r.

Speaker 1 for the bep.efit of the El.ouse and for the hon. gentle- man before he answers the question, that we may argue and figbt and disagree amongst ourselves but when an outsider steps in and does somethinq to Newfoundland, well, then, we all gang up on him and that is why I am asking this question about Mr. Beesley. This -·pardon? MR: MARSHALL: ( I.nallCliDle) the outsider MR. S. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, it does not make any difference who the outsider is, ·not to me. !011!!! ·Hat, MEMBERS: _Oh. ah! MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : Order, please! MR. S.

NEARY: It does not make any difference to me anyway ·· who the outsider is but once an outsider attacks us or does something to hurt Newfoundland then we all stick together. And I would like the ask the Premier, I am sure that I do not have to ask him, if the lines between here and Ottawa were hwm:ting over the weekend after he heard the statement made by Mr. Allan J. Beesleythat Newfoundland ·.vould !lave to share its off-shore resources even if they did run out to the edges of the continental shelf. 622

March 10, 1980 Tape ~o. 234 OW - 1 :1R. S. ~EA:tY: I am sure eve~yboey, eve~y Newfoundlander was pretty angry when he hea rd chat. And what does it do co Newfoundland's case? Does it weaken our position? Would the hon. gentleman care co make some comments? ~R . S?EA~ER (SimDS): 2RZXIER ?ECXP ORD: like i:: lS _ I agree The hen. the Premier. Yes, ~r . Speaker, i~ see ~s wich the sympa thies oi the hen . me~ber for LaPoile (~r. s. Neary) when he talks abou: somebody outside this Province . It seems like in the last number of ~eeks there has been a 'Let us get after ~ewfoundland day' or something acr oss the world.

In any ca se , to answer directly I have wired e~e new Miniseer o! !x~e:nal Af!airs, Mr. Marc ~acGuiqan , ou::lining in detoil and I should have a copy of i:: and should have table~ it without having the question asked. I am sorry 1 do not and ! a?olo9ize .

I will ge~ a copy of it - it is ju st th at in the thrust ot :ry ing :o qet here at three o'clock, I forqot ·it, it is on my desk, a copy of a teleg za m chat I sene to the new Secretary o~ State :or ~xternal ~ffairs outlin~ng our position in some detail and one of i~ being that we want :he Geneva Conve~ : ~o~ o: 1958 to remain che agreement by which the various coun:r~es ot :he world ~ill operate as i~ rel aces to ~ur mineral resources ,and that is che way :hey are no w. Can you imavine, for example, ~ r. Spea~er , t~a: in essence i: what ~l :-.

Bee sley says and other pe ople ~ho are taking t~e position tha: he is takinq 'We a:e being asked co share some revenues which we do noc know i~ we are qoin~ ~0 qe t any o~rsel~es,an~way as ~ew:oundlanders and Lab ra- dorians co scar~ with_. and secor.dly , tha t we are goin <J 623

------ --- !larch 10, 1980 Tape No. 234 DN - 2 2REMIER PECKFORD : to be asked by countries' like Afghanistan, we are going to be asked by countries' like - who else? MR. ROBERTS: PREMIER PECKFORD: Rhodesia, (inaudible). Rhodesia, Zimbabwe and so on so that they can buy extra tanks t~ fight a war somewhere.

I mean it is getting to be a bit c~azy - some of these land­ locked and otherwise somewhat imperilled peoples of the world who are suddenly after a rescurce which first of all we do not know if we own; secondly, we do not know how much we are going to be able to control; thirdly, we do not know if we are going to get anything of it in large term and yet they are already after parts of it.

Well, as I say, we have officially communicated our concern~ to the federal govern­ ment,represented by the !linister of State for External Affairs, and we will be having our delegation from Newfoundland present in New York as these ta~ks continue with a view to articulatin~ again in person , our strong, strong objections - and I think the word and phraseology used in our communication was 'unacceptable'-that this new iniative, this idea by the Canadian Government to in any way change the present arrangements that were agreed to in the 1958 Geneva convention are unacceptable to the people of this Province. MR.

S. :-lEARY: MR . SPEAKER · (Simm

s) for La?oile. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplerrentary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, I hope the hen. gentleman will table that telegram he 3ent off to the new Minister of External Affairs. But I would have been more strong in my protests, I ·,.rould demand, and I am asking the hen. gentleman to think this one over that Mr. Beesley this fellow Beesley, whoever ·he is ~hat he be not allowed to be the spokesman for Canada in the f~ture because obviously the gentle:nan 624

March lO, 1980 Tape No. 235 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: knows nothing about negotiations; tips his hand right off the bat to the Law of t~e Sea Conference, to all the countries that are attending that conference, tips his hand. He has nothing now left to negotiate with and in doing it has done an awful lot of damage to Newfoundland's case. Would the han. gentleman con­ sider, and if the han. gentleman needs the backing of this House I would move the resolution, that this man Beesley be not allowed to negotiate or to make any more statements on behalf of Canada.

And if he made it without the knowledge of the Minister of External Affairs, or whoever he is representing at that conference 1 then he should be suspended from his job. That is how strongly we feel about it on this side of the House. I would like to get the Premier's views on that. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if it will really do any good. I agree that it will show just how strongly we feel about it but I thi~~ Mr.

Seesley is just one; I think he is sort ~f the chief architect of Canada's position at these things and it will just go to somebody else's function to fill in and to say the same thing. I am very, very disturbed not only by that but as it relates to what the Minister of ~isheries (Mr. Morgan) just talked about. Because we have had some observers attend with the Canadian delegation the ongoing negotiations with Spain on the fishery thing and it is astounding to me, absolutely astounding to me that the only commodity in Canada that is treated by itself and differently than all other commodities in Canada is fish.

Fish is treated on its own. There are no External Affairs people involved. There are no Industry, Trade and Commerce people L~volved. The Fisheries Department of Ottawa speaks for and negotiates on behalf of canadians as it relates to fish and there is no integration with all the other commodities. we do not get any benefits that way. In other words 1 any time anything has to be done in Fisheries as it relates to any other country outside, then the immediate thing to do is to give them some fish. There is no such talk about whether Massey Ferguson 625

~!a=h lO, 1980 Tape No. 235 NM- 2 PRF..MIER PECKFORD: should get involved in our manufacturing, in our products that we sell overseas to trade off something else that might be more "trade affable" in the long term interest of canada than fish. It is astounding that that works that way. Here is a copy of the telegram. So I do not know, in answer to the hen. member's question directly whether in fact it would do any good.

I ~nk it weuld put the flag up and show just how great our concern is but knowing the composition and mix of the federal delegation, I do not think it would have any impact upon the ideas that they are going to put forward at the convention. The first point, the right of the coastal state to exploit the continental margin. Here is part of my telegram, I will just read part of it and table it for the hen. member's edification. "und:r the 1958 Geneva convention 1 coastal ·states have the exclusive right to expl _oit the mineral resources on their continental margins out to the limits of exploitability.

Under the convention now proposed,the exclusive right of the coastal state to the benefits of mineral exploitation on the continental margin (shelf, slope and rise) are limited to the 200 exclusive economic zone. Beyond EEZ, a system of reven~e sharing with the international community has been proposed. Newfoundland would find unacceptable a text which would diminish its rights as they now exist under the 19-58 convention. (Exclosed is a copy of 626

March 10, 1980 Tape 236 EC - l PREMIER PECKFORD : my letter to your predecessor which points out how much is at stake. on. It is here and I will table it now. And then I go on, two, three and so MR. S • NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A final supplementary, the hen. the I hope the word will go out from this House today, if the message does not come through in the Premier's teleqram,that we are pretty sore about the kind of statement that this Mr. Beesley, whoever he is, made.

What I would like to know is if he had the authority of the Government of Canada to make such a statement or was it just a personal opinion? If it was a personal opinion then the man should be fired . - the man is incapable of acting on behalf of Canada. But coming back to the situation itself, my understanding is that Ben Nevis is outside of the 200 mile management zone. Now, as a result of this weakening our position, will there be any move now on the part of these nations to claim any of the benefits inside the 200 mile management zone? Is there any evidence of that?

And who do we have representing us at this conference? Do we have people down there representing Mines and Energy and the Fisheries? MR. PECKFORD: They are going down. MR. NEARY: They are going down. Well, the conference has not started yet? PREMIER PECKFORD: The hearings dealing with what we are talking about here/ so- people are going down on Wednesday. MR. NEARY: But these are preliminary meetings that are taking place that Mr. Beesley attended? PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes. Right. It qets down to the bargaining and whether this goes forward or not starting Wednesday. MR.

NEARY: Well, what I am asking the Premier to assure this House, Mr. Speaker, is that we have the strongest representation that we can muster together to send to these conferences in future. 627

March 10 1 1980 Tape 236 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY: Do not send boys to do men's jobs - get the best that we can get in this Province, people who are vocal and who are patriotic and are prepared to stand up for Newfoundland. I ask the Premier to assure the House that that will be done in future and that we will not send out boys do do men's jobs. MR. SPEAKER (SiliiiiiS) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : You have no worries about that, Mr. Speaker. I can assure the hon. member and this House and all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians that as we go forward into negotiations of this sort.

Sometimes, of course, we are only on observer status as we were, for · example - albeit it was warthwhile because we were able to see the information in the negotiations that went on in Spain a few weeks ago. I got a full report on it from our people, from our side, where we totally objected to the format of the negotiations. Because, as the hon. member says, it is not negotiations at all, you give away your best card before you even sit down to the table. And it is happening every day in the fishery.

Almost every day it is happening because for some strange reason, there are a lot of people around Canada who think that we must be the international good boy while at the same time, we see some of our resources being traded off to somebody else to whom we owe nothing. So we intend to have a very strong delegation in New York to speak up for our part as it relates to this whole question of some revenue sharing outside the 200 mile limit and to somehow change the 1958 Geneva Convention.

Secondly, on the whole question of Ben Nevis, my understanding is that Ben Nevis is within the 200 mile zone so ~~at therefore, it is not affected. The other thing, later on in the week, Mr. Speaker, we will try to enlighten the - I think it was the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. G. Flight) whose comments I read, who somehow does not understand the geology of the Continental Shelf and thought that for some strange reason, somebody could in the future drill some wells outside the 200 mile limit and drain the oil off from inside. SOME i'ION. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bonavista North. 628

March 10,1980 Tape No. 237 AH-1 MR. STIRLING: Thank y~u. Mr. Speaker. I am sure every day now we are seeing more and more reasons why the Premier should consider setting up a select committee of the House to look at th .e whole offs -hore. However, my question, Mr. Speaker, is over something ~hat we do have control, it is something in our own hands and it is concerning this verY vital subject,the fishery, and it has to do with a petition first presented in August of last year by the fishermen from Greenspond.

There has been an exchange of correspondence going on since then so I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) if he is now in a position to say that the Province will take action in providing emergency funds so that the :fishermen who had whale da:mage, the fishermen from Greenspond, can get back in the business this year? MR.SPSAKER (Simms) MR. MORGAN: The hen. Minister of Fisheries. Mr .

Speaker, I wish I could say ~hat but the meetings we have had to date wich ihe federal authoricies 1 and also combining the Pishermen 's Union who were speaking on behalf of the fishermen , it is felc that ~he con servation measures on the hump back whale in pa rt icular as placed by che federal government,that unless chey are willing to lift the ban on hunt ing fo r '"'hales they should be able to put into a fund, a conservatio; .::.~ nd if 10u want to call it that, to compensate fishermen who have their gear damaged by the whales.

No w during the last cwo years around our coastline chere were mo=e whales th an ever before. The placing of a ban on che hunting of whales is not under ~he jurisdiction of the Newf oundland Gove rnmen t, Mr . speaker . And ! mentioned Ln the Souse a couple of days ago that the ~on . gentleman shou ld learn something about the fisheries if he is going to represent Bonav ista Norc~. think it is about time he star~ed 1 because placing a ban on whales has 629

March l0,19ao Tape No . 237 AH-2 HR. MORGAN: nothing to do with the Newfoundland Govern~ent. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear 1 h·ear! MR -. STIRLING: A point of order. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): A point of order. The hen. member for Bonavista North. MIL STIRLING: The question had nothing to do with a ban on whales) I .-as talking about whether or not they were going to pay for the gear replacement. It had nothing to do with misleading the House by talking about the question. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. MR. MORGAN: Yes, M:r. Speaker 1 to t.he p6int of order.

I was answering a question and the question was, and I am pretty sure I heard it accurately, the question was, what the Newfoundlang Government was going to do, the Department of Fisheries,with regard to compensating fishermen for lost gear or damaged gear by means of distruction by whales'? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! With respect to the point of order I rule there is no point of order. If a member is dissatisfied with an answer to a question there is a procedure he may follo~. The hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, continuing the answer to tl\.e ques~ion it is a serious matter tho ·ugh . 'a til all joking aside, it is a serious mat~ar. Tha fishermen around Bonavis~a Ba~ in particular 1 have had substantial damage to their fishing gear the last two seasons and we have put forward a petition - when I say '"e , the Newfoundland Gove-rnment­ to Octawa, saying "Look, if you are not going to lift the ban on the hunting of whales at least pay for the damage to fishermen's gear in some kind of a conservation compensation 630

March 10,1980 Tape NO. 237 AH-3 MR. MORGAN: fund.• And to date both the union in our Province and ourselves are working together on that matter. But to date there has been no programme put in place by the federal authorities. In t;he meantime, we have put forward a submission , a detailed submission to Ottawa, again approved by the Fishermen's Unio~ for the implementation of a gear insurance programme. Now that gear insurance programme would cover a:tl kinds of damage, whether it be ice damage, starm damage, environmental damage or damage from whales.

But that kind of a programme is a programme we are hoping the new minister now will agree to work on with us and the Fishermen's union in puttingi~ in place in 1980. MR. ST:RLING: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary. The hen. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morga -

n) if he has mad .e the distinction between this long-term gear insurance programme that was initiated in 197~ and this emergency whiah occured last year and which .the federal minister said on December 19th h.e was prepared to have special handling done if the provincial government would agree~ Is he making a distinct ion between 631

~larch 10, 1980 Tape No. 238 ~- 1 ME. STIRLING: the long-term permanent gear insurance programme and this special emer~ency programme. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MOR.GAN: Mr. Speaker, I have no knowledge of a special emergency programme. We asked for it to be established in the Fall of '79 as a result of doing an assessment for the federal government with regard to damage, That assessment was done by the Provincial Department of Fisheries to aid and assist the federal department, and the authorities of that department, in getting information a~ to the damage that occurred.

At various meetings along the Northeast coast the last two or three months involving the fishermen and the fishermen's union and ourselves and the federal authorities, there was never any mention by the federal authorities, nor by the federal minister to my knowledge, either the present or the past, .of any kind of emergency programme to compensate fishermen for d~age by whales.

But in the meantime, of course 1we are pursuing vigorously the idea with the federal authorities, before the new minister came 0r. the scene now, and we will be o,.er the ne .xt number of week .s, ·with the federal minister in meetings 1pursuingthe idea of setting up a long-term gear insurance programme for fishermen. MR. STIRLING: MR. 5;PEAKER: Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: A final supplementary. A final supplentary, the hen. member for What it really boils down to, Mr. Speaker, is that these fishermen have had their gear wiped out.

I take it from what the minister said, he has now confirmed it, they had a special committee investigate it and they confirmed damage was done. ~he total amount is only $40,000 out of the Fisheries budge'. 1 it does not require any federal involvement; Will the minister co~it himself to spending the $40,000 to put those people back into the fishery this year? MR. E'. RO~IE: A fair question. 632

~larch 10, 1980 Tape No. 238 mt - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MDRGJ\N: Mr. speaker, we have no intentions of co=ecting the sometimes decisions made by ottawa without knowing the ramifications of the decision they are making. The decision was made by Ottawa to place a ban on whales in this Province, the hunting of whales.

Now 1 that decision is a federal government decision and our position is now, and it will be in the future, unless they are willing to change that decision we are not g.oing to compensate the fishermen for the damage done as a result of a decision made by the federal government. In the meantime, the only answe~ in my view 1is to get a long-term gear insurance ·programme into place. But we are not going to get involved in compensating the fishermen, which we feel at this time is strictly and tota ·lly the responsibilility of the federal government. 1m. SPEAKER: MR. HANCOCK: The hon. member for St.

Mary's-The Capes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I havP. " question for the Minister of Health. Shortly after I became the member for my district the drug dispensary in the Department of Health Cline in St. Brides was closed down. Sir, this was vital to the people of that area. It served the ar .ea from North Harbour to Little Barrisway and the people of that area would like to know why it was closed down, Sir? MR. SPSJI.KER: The hen. Mini ·ster of Health. MR . BOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the law, of course 1in the Province is,I guess 1 that where it is at all possible that- and I believe there is

an act l!lf-this Legislature to that effect - where at all possible drugs will be dispensed when it is feasible by pharmacists ann a necision was made to dispense with the drug dispensary. MR. ROBERTS: ~ -~ HR. ROBERTS: ~IR. HO USE: What act is that, Sir? It ·is the present - The Pharmacy Act? Pharmacy Act_, yes • And we are just carrying out the act. The ·re are places in the Province right now where we do have 633

!<larch 10, 1980 'l'ape No. :238 NM - 3 MR. HOOSE: district nurses dispensing, and where we do have medical officers. But it is deemed that they are too far away from the existing drug store, the pharmacy, to impose the act in these places. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): St. Mary's- The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: A supplementary, the hon. member for Yes, Sir. So when did that act come into exis.tence, or when can we expect to see a change in the act or is your department going to change the act to provide the services necessary to that conununity or that

section of that district? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I do not think there i s any intention to change the act to make that accommodation but I have the hon. member's letter and I will be getting back to him with the official answer. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries has been doing so very we.ll today perhaps he could give me some heLp with this question of the Workers 1 Cot:tpensation benefits for fishermen.

I wonder if the minister is in a position to confirm to ·the House that legislative action will b.e taken in this session to allow fishermen, all varieties of fishermen to come in for full coverage under the Workers' Compensation Programme? 634

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 239 so - 1 !fR· SPEAKER ( SilllllS I : The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. l«lRGAN: Mr. Speaker, I will just answer pert of the question and probably concede to my colleaque the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn~ responsible for the lfozken' Compensation Board. At a -etinq with the Fishermen's Union,approximately a week aqo,it was brought to my attention that it has not been fully resolved as to how the 'lfozkers' Compensation payments could be collected, that was their main concern. MR. E. l!W)BERTS : MR. J, MORGAN : MR. E. l!W)BERTS: Whose concern? The concern of the union.

The union. MR. J. MORGAN : They wanted to dete:r:mine a way by which the payments could be collected. And one possible means that I looked at in talking with the Workmen's Compensatio~ Board . . in correspondence with them,is the possibility of desiqnatinq the processors and the buyers combined as the employers of all fisherm~n.

In other words, the fishermen ship to them and then the ·buyers would be the employers and they would then automatically collect.But, of course,there are a number of different ways of collecting and who would be payinq,whether it would be part­ sharid .:by the company, the buyer or part-shared by the fishermen, or the total paid by t.'le fishermen, total paid by the buyers. So what I have agreed to do, Mr.

Speaker, in answering the question, is·that I advised the union last week to set up a meeting with my colleaque the minister responsible, and the Chairman of the Wozkers' Compensation Board and his officials and to qet that meeting established as early as possible to discuss the whole possibility of having all fishermen included in the workers' Compensation plan. MR. E. A:>BERTS: MR. SPEAlCER: for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: A supplellll!ntary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. member Does the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn) wish to say a word? MR. SPEAKER: The hen.

Minister of Labour and Manpower. 635

March 10, 1980 MR. J. DINN: hon. member's question - MR. E. ROBERTS: MR. J. DINN: MR. E. ROBERTS : MR. J. -onm, Tape No. 239 SD - 2 Mr. Speaker, just to clarify the Clarify the minister's answer. - or clarify - Clarify the situation. - clarify the situation as it is puceived by some hon. members in the House,.. and that is that it is compulsory - you know, we have canpulsory workers' compensation for fiShermen who have three or more in a boat. MR. E. ROBERTS: That is the big 'if'. MR. S. NEARY: Frank Moores changed all of that. Frank Moores made a private deal. MR. J.

DINN: There vas no private deal made that I am aware of 1 Mr. Speaker 1 The fact of the matter is that workers' compensation is available to all fishermen in boats of three or more. Not only is it available but it is compulsory. The very difficult sit;uation tha~ we have ::as a result of the legislation in l973,is one of collection of the assessment. And we have been discussing with the Fishermen's Onion,and this is one of the reasons why I was amazed to find the Fishermen's Onion come out and make fairly erroneous statements.

The fact of the matter is that they are covered, it is compulsory that they be covered,and that the problem is in the assessment and the collection of same. And we have five proposals that we have talked to the unions about and talked to the companies about as to how we are going to assess and collect the assessments. With respect to the individual fisherman in the boat, he can also be covered if he pays the assessment. Now, the fact of the matter is in that situation it is strictly voluntary. A •upplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. E. ROBERTS MR.

SPEll!CER: Final supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. 636

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 239 SD - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS : Final? r did not even have a first one, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAn:R (Simms): A final supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ~BERTS : Mr. Speake:.;, I humbly accept 1our Honour'!s ruling. Your Honour 11.ust have been taking answers for supplementaries over there but in any event I am not so sure we are qetting to the bottom because we never did get an answer to the question to whether oz: not full coverage would be extended by which I wcn~ld mean compulsory coverage.

Can the minister tell us whether he will instruct the Workers ' Ccmpens ation Board. while this matter is under consideration as it is and while there is an attempt being made to try to resolve it equitably, that there will be no action taken against the fishermen who are in the compulsory category ?

Because a number of my constituents have fallen afoul of the Board and it seems to be almost a very hit or miss thing - every now and then some .long liner crew surfaces ;md some one in the workers ' Compensation Board says, you know, "We really should assess them." And the next thing you know the poor devils are in court or something because, of course , the workers ' Compensation Board has a very effective lien proc~s that can be used. So since, (

a) the government does not know what is happening, you know, it is obvious nobody is quite sure what i!t · happening; and (

b) the system, by the minister's own words, "Has proven to be ineffective:~ Will the minister instruct the workers • Compensation Board, or request them, if he does not want to instruct them, anyway, get the message across to them, to let the matter stand until it is resolved and if legislative is to be taken it is taken,and if Executive action is to be taken by the minister and the cabinet, then that is taken? MR. SPEAn:RI: Manpower. MR. J. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour and Mr. Speaker, the only people that have been assessed by the Workers' Compensation Board are those crews that could be easily identified and that is - 637

March lO, 1980 MR. E. ROBERTS : MR. J. OINN: MR. E. ROBERl'S : Tape No. 239 so - 4 They hit and miss. That is right, to say the least. Ten per cent of the ones - 638 !..

March 10, 1980 Tape 240 EC - l MR. J. DINN: It is very difficult. You might have A crew that is supposed to be together this week and you have a totally different sitUAtion aext week or the week after or tomorrow. So what we are attempting to do is sit down with the unions, with the companies and the Minister of Fisherias (!lr.J. Morgan) requested lut week that I sit down with the union and attempt to reach some conclusion on this and I will be only too delighted to do so.

The fact of the matter is it has been ongoing now since - well, certainly, since last March that I have been having these meetings and the Workers'Compensation Board has been having these meetings. And we have people who have c:cme in and made claims for compensation and we have no monies coming in on the other side, on the assessmant side. So it is a very ticklish situation, because the monies that are in there are monies that have been paid by miners in Western Labrador and other companies.

So it is a very tricky situation as to,How do you take funds that have been put in by iron ore miners for compensating the miners and fishermen coming in looking for compensation and yet with no monies coming in on that end? MR. ROBERTS : The same way you take the (inaudible). MR. J. DINN: Yes, so it is a very difficult situation and the fact of the matter is that we are attempting to resolve that situation right now. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. ROBERTS: resolved? MR. J. DDIN: anyone will be taken to court. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. E. HISCOCK: Order, please!

Will we get forbearance until it is Well, I will say that I do not think I would hope not. We have time for one quick question. The hon. the member for Eagle River. I direct my question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. C. Brett) • Last month the minister made an announcement that there would be an inquiry into ferry service 639 ·-

~ch 10, 1980 Tape 240 EC - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: in this Prov ince and als o that it would be extended to coastal boat service. Could the minister inform this House of the terms of this inquiry? Number one, who is on this committee? - -- - .. Humber two, will thia be __ e_xtende!i? Number thz:ee, will this be extended to include the extension to the ferry service from St. Barbe to Blanc Sablan and also a possibility of a ferry service between Hermitage and Gaultois? MR. SPEAKER (Simms l : and Communications. MR. C. BRE'l"l': The hon. the Minister of Transportation Mr.

Speaker , the terms of reference , I do not think, have been fully decided, .but we did point out at the time that there were three possibilities. One was that the Province would operate the ferry system and number two, tbat private enterprise would take it over. MR. ROBERTS: And number three was both of them. MR. C. BRE'l"l': No. And I think that number three was that they would look into all the ferries that are in operation in the Province including the C.N. The committee will .be internal, made up of people from my department, the Department of Transportation and Communications.

I am not sure - I do not have the information here, but it is an internal committee made up of representatives from various departments. They have not actually met. I do not know if the personnel have actually been appointed at this point in time. But certainly, we are working on it. MR. SPEAKER: has expired. Order, please! The time for Oral Questions PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPE CI AL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs Sir, I table the report from Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services for the period ending March 31, 1979. MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Subsection 2 of

Section 8 of the Financial Administration Act, I would like to table 640

~ch 10, 1980 OR. J. COLLINS : departments. MR. SPEA!CE.R (Simms) : T~pe 240 EC - 3 special warrants coverinq eiqht NOTICES OF MOTiai 'rhe bon. the Minister of Finance. OR. J. COLLINS: Mr, Speaker, I qive notice thll.t I will on tomonow ask leave to introduce ~ bill entitled "lUl Act Respectinq The Garni.sbments Aqainst' Reunmeration Of Public Officials" and uso a :bill entitled "lUl Act To Amend The Mtlmbers Of The Bouse Of Assem:bly Retirement Allowances A.ct". MR. SPEAKER: Any further notices? The b.on. the Minister of Const~~~er Affairs and Envir~t. MRS. a. NEWHoolt: Mr.

Speaker, I qive notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled "An Act Respecting The Orillinq Of Water Wells And The Conservation And Ose Of G~und Water" and also ~ :bill, "An Act To Amlmd The Departlllent !Jf Consumer Affairs And Environment Act, 1973". PRESENTING PB'l'ITXCUS MR. SPEAICER: The bon. the lllelllber for carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: I would like to present, Mr. Speaker , a petition on behaU of 81 per cent of the total electorate of the town of Freshwater in my district. ~!!ON.~: Rear, hear! MR. R.

MOORES : There is no need for me to qo beyond the prayer of the petition because the minister responsible for this particular type of petition has discussed the matter with me 641

March 10, 1980 Tape Mo. 241 EL - l MR. R. MOORES : and we have gone over the various aspects of this petition so I will just read the petition prayer for the record. Mr. Speaker, •To the hon.

House of Assembly in~a sess- ion assembled, we the undersigned, being bonafide residents and voters of the community of Freshwater, in the district of Carbonear, do hum­ bly sbowe~, that in 1974 a public meeting and subsequent circulation of a previous petition , acknowledged -· that 88 per cent_of our citizenry was in favor of incorpo~ation as a community council, and that we recognize that changes in legislatio~ since that time, have increased our taxation liability from a minimum of five dollars to a maximum of twenty per annum, _ ~:z,-0111 ;a minimum of tw•ntv to a maximum of forty dollars per annum and that even with these increases in tax­ ation we are still prepared to enter into an incorporated community council ·for the protection 1 benefit and progress of the future of our community.

Therefore, we humpl .i' request that the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and his officials and the Lieutenan~-Governor in council, interpret our signing of this peti­ tion as our unequivocal wish that the procedure coi!DI\enced in 1974 to incorporate our community, be immediately reactivated and implement- ed .. " Need I say, Mr. Speaker, whoever com­ posed this , is probably more familiar with parliamentary procedure in this House than I am. But, in any event, Mr.

Speaker, just a few short remarks: ~The minister and I have discussed essentially what the residents of this community require and that is that they be, as soon as possible, without delay, be granted the approval by the Lieu­ tenant-Governor in Council to formulate 1 to create some type of local government. Now, I understand that there have been changes as a result of the new Municipalities Act and even with the impleroentation of that Act, I would hope that the minister will do 642

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 241 EL - 2 MR. R. MOORES: all that he can without delay, that is to say within the next three or four weeks 1 of first appointing a C011111ittee.~hopefully so that co1n111ittee can conduct elections in the community to give them a representative government on the local lev- el as soon as possible. Thank you. MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Well said. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. W. MARSHALL: Order 11, Bill Number 13 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order 11, Bill Number 13.

It is moved and seconded that Bill Number 13 entitled"An Act To Protect The En- vironment Of The Province By Providing For Environmental Assessment" be now read a second time. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of ConsUIIIer Affairs ~d Environment. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBER: Come on co.ztder I MS. H. NEWHOOK: Thank you. Mr.

Speaker,it is with pleasure and satisfaction that I rise to introduce this Bill which is entitled "An Act To Protect The Environment Of The Province By Provid- ing For Environmental Assessment." This has been one of the major commitments of this government. The Premier has indicated on a n1m1- ber of occasions the high priority with which we regard this matter and the Speech from the Throne outlined our intention of introducing legislation which would require the environmental assessment of under- takin~ .J prior to their c011111encement.

We feel that this is a progressive and forward-looking piece of legislation and will have major impact on our efforts to protect our environment. All of us can cite many ex- amples from various projects which have commenced with little cr no thought given to the impact of our natural environment on our people. 643

!-larch 10, 1980 Tape No. 241 EL - 3 MS. B. NEWHOOK: I think we cou.ld name the ERCO Plant at Long Harbour, .P~~- Mining at St. Lawrence, Asbestos Mining at Baie Verte, Iron Ore Mining at Labrador and others where . "iaroj~ ·­ have proceeded only to subsequently reveal sicp1ificant and undesirab;Le effects. This Bill will ensure that a thorough examination of the environmental impact of any such project[ 644

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 242 NM- 1 MRS. NEWHOOK: shall be undertaken before final approval is given. Much of the effort of my department during the past few years has been directed toward correcting environmental problems which arise because it has been revealed that certain un­ desirable and unacc ·eptable situations exist. While this process must continu~ we want to move away from after the fact strategy and towards preventive measures as provided for in the bill.

This is not only environmentally sound but it has also been shown to be more economically desirable, since it is usually less costly to include measures which prevent pollution than it is to correct problems afterwards. While the mandate of my department 1 as outlined in the departmental act 1 provides authority to protect air, soil and water, this bill would provide for a much broader scope concerning the environmental assessments.

It has been recognized that the social and economic conditions irt which people live are closely related to the characteristics of the natural . environment in or adjacent to their communi ties. Environment in this bill is theref<:>re defined very broadly to include social, cultural, recreational and econemic · environment, and anything which influences the lives of people, such as the health and safety conditions under which they work. The impact a project may have, therefore, on any or all of the .se particular aspects of the environment, must be assessed as part of the environmental impact prediction.

The assessment system has been designed to incorporate consultation and policy integration in order to ensure that all interests are duly considered. I would like, Mr. Speaker, to explain this bill under four headings~ Number one, the type of undertakings to be assessed. The bill provides for a very broad

interpretation of the 645 ~

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 242 NM - 2 MRS. NEWHOOK: term "undertaking", so that any proposed project which may have a significant environmental impact will be subjected to the environmental assessment process. Every proponen~ therefore 1of a proposed undertaking must register the proposal with our department so that an examination may take place in order to determine whether or not an environmental impact study is required.

I would point out here that regulations will be developed which will contain schedules of guidelines indicating broad categories of projects which would normally require environmental assessments. There would be .of course,many small projects which would not require such assessments. As I have indicated, however, where the minister is of the opinion that a project will have a significant environmental impact,an assessment must take place.

The statement would include a prediction of not only the immediate effects on the environment but also what the effects would be over a number of years as well as a description of what the environment might be like if the project had not taken place at all. And number two, procedure for the assessment. Terms of reference for the assessment are approved by my department and the proponent commences the preparation of a report referred to in the bill as an environmental impact statement. This statement is to be a public document addressing all environmental concerns identified in the terms of reference.

As I have outlined,an essential feature of this bill is the requirement for public involvement.

Section 17 of the bill requires the proponent to meet with the public during the course of the environmental 646 --

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 243 ow - 1 MRS. NEWHOOK: assessment in order to provide information and receive the concerns of the local community.

Section 23 provides for early public involvement through written expressions of concern to the minister who may then require the proponent to address and respond to the questions raised. In order to ensure that the necessary technical expertise is avail­ able to the minister,

Section 22 of the bill provides for the appointment of an Environmental Assessment Committtee. This committee would draw its membership from all departments of government which may have scientific and professional staff in specific subject areas, as well as ·other technical and professional people with required expertise on any particular project. The committee would supervise the assessment process and provid~ advice to the minister en all technical aspects of the assessments 1 including the terms of reference and the impact statement.

The minister may require that the environmental impact statement form the basis for public hearings in order to provide an opportunity for public input into the assessment. Provision is made in the bill for the appointment of an independeat board which will be irnpowered to conduct public hearings in any area which may be affected by the project. These hearings will provide an opportunity for the proponent to be questioned on the environmental impact statement and any other matter relating to the proposed project.

He will also provide an avenue whereby any group or citizen having comments or views, can make their positions known and influence the final decision as to the acceptability or otherwise of the proposed undertaking. At the end of the assessnent process 1 the minister is responsible for making a report and recemmendation to the Lieutenattt- 647

March 10, 1980 MB.S. NEWHOOK: final decision. DW - 2 Governor in Council for a of the bill. And number three; the scope This bill will be binding on both the public and private sectors. All projects to be undertaken by government will be subject to this legislation and no permits ~hall be given by any department of government having jurisdiction in a specific area until art environ­ ment assessment has been completed or it has been deter- mined that an assessment is not required. Concern has been azpressed by some that this may cause delays and may appreciatively add to the cost of projects.

I would contend that inclusion of environmental assess­ ment as part of the initial p~anning will• not signifi­ cantly delay projects once developers realize that plailning in the area must commence .eariier as do other aspects of project planning. I would point out as well that we estimate that the cost of environmenta ·l assess­ ments will probably be in the area between .2 and 1 per cent of the total cost of the project. Fourthly, Mr. Speaker, I would like to mention environment .legislation in other jurisdictions.

At the federal level there was established in l973 1 an environmental assessment and review process which requires an assessment prior to any major project involving federal sponsorship. All nine provinces have environmental assessment policies or procedures in varying stages of development. Only Ontario has passed a specific Act. 648 --

March 10,1980 Tape No. 244 AH-1 MRS NEWHOOK: It can be seen therefore that Newfoundland is certainly out front in this area. It has been suggested that industries considering establishment in Newfoundland may be frightened away by the requirements ~ of this bill. Our answer to that is twofold. Firstly, we do not believe this will occur because there will be nowhere else to go. Assessment requirements are already in place 1 as I have pointed out 1 and in all likel~hood will very soon be equally as stringent in all jurisdictions.

Secondly, even though industries may be inclined to go elsewhere,we have no desire or intent of providing a permissive atmosphere where the well~being of our environment is concerned, Mr.

Speaker, to recap: The major features of the propose~ legislation are: Application to any undertaking or class of undertakings,public or private, unless specifically exempted; definition of environment to include physical, biological, social, economic and other components; appointment of an inter-agency assessment committee as the internal review body for each environmental assessment; preparation and submission of an environmental impact statement by the proponent at his own expense. 1his document is made available to ~he public immediately.

Provision for public hearings held by an impartial board; Restriction of the issuing of any permits, approvals, etc., until assessment requirements have been satisfied. Provision for charges relative to offenses. And in concluding my remarks, Mr. Speaker, I would again express my pleasure in introducing this progressive legislation. I think there are few things as precious to us in this Province as our environment, natural, social and cultural. It is a part of our heritage,and we have a grave responsibility 649

March 10,1980 Tape No. 244 AR-2 MRS NEWHOOK: and sacred trust to protect it and indeed enhance it and to pass it on to future generations of Newfoundlanders in a healthy state. This bill goes a long way towards the ftil£illment of these objectives and I am sure that all citizens of our Province support this bill and I am earnestly requesting the support of all members of this House. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR.SPEAKER (Butt): MR •. NEARY: Hear, hear! The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Spea~er, the hon. minister who introduced this bill will get her last request.

It maybe her last will and testamen~ but she will get her·· last request that this bill will get support of members on both sides of the House 1 because we intend to support the bill. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, ·that the minister saw fit to come' in and read a statement 1 probably prepared by one of the civil servants in her department,instead of coming in in what the minister de~ms to be such a major l!ef@rm - and I will deal with that in due course. It is not the reform that the minister said that it is.

It will go a long way, to use the minister's own words, to protect the environment in this Province and to give the public some imput,but we would have beeh much more we would have felt better about this legislation, we would have felt much m0re comfortable, Mr. Speaker, if the minister brought in a piece of legislation making it compulsory for all projects in the future ,whether they be industrial projects or recreation or what have you, right from the offshore oil resources right up to the uranium mine up in Northern Labrado~ to the Opper Salmon down in Bay D' Espoir, if the government 650 --

~ch 10, 1980 Tape 245 EC - 1 MR. s. NEARY: would make it compulsory for all these projects to have public hearings and allow the public to have some input. This bill does not make it COIDpulsory. It puts too much power in the hands of the minister and the civil servants, the bur-uc:rats and the mandarins in the llli.nister' s department. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY : And that is where the bill is weak. Mr. Speaker , we are going to support the bill, because if there was ever a time in Newfoundland' s history when - need to protect the environment, it is now.

The minister can Jllak.e remarks all she wants about how the department so far has llll!lrely been sticking their finger in the dyke as far as projects brought into this Province in the past are concerned, that they have not had a real opportunity, according to the minister, . to blaze n- trails, to pioneer this department. The department, actually, as far as I can· see in the past several years, has gone downhill. I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that this Department of the Environment should be in with Consumer Aff.U.rs, there is no compatibility. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. S.

NEARY: Where is the compatibility between Consumer Affairs and the Environment? It was something somebody dreamt up when they wanted to create. a new de~nt of government. They wanted to create a new Department of Consumer Affairs and they just did not feel it was significant enouqh, important enough to say , we are going to have a Department of Consumer Affairs, so we have to toss something else in with it, and they tossed in the Environment.

I believe the Department of the Environment, Sir, should be a separate government department, and Consumer Affairs should be a separate department. we have that foolish Department of Tourism. It should be wiped out. If the Premier is wondering where he can save a few dollars, wipe it out altogether, toss it in with some other department of government, and set up a department responsible for the environmen~. 651

March 10, 1980 Tape 245 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY : Because, as I said a few moments ago, if there was ever a time in Newfoundland's history when we needed a separate Department of the Environment, it is now. It would not have made any difference ~t party was in power, Mr. Speaker, events would have dictated that we would have had to take steps in this Province, out of desperation if for no other reason, to protect the environment. No matter what party was in power,

an act would have to be brought before this House and a separate dep.-rtment responsible for the environment set up because of the way that developments and events and things have happened in this Province. We have before us today, Mr. Speaker, a problem of major proportions with the offshore drilling taking place. It is one of the 1110st frightening things that is happening in this Province today. We are all proud and happy as Newfoundlanders to know that we have oil.

And I suppose any Premier of Call.ada, any Governor in the Onited States, any President or Prime Minister of any country in the world toda~ who just came into power, if there is one thing that he could wish for, if he could be granted one wish - say, 'Mr. Prime Minister, Mr. Premier, Mr. Governor, Mr. President of the Onited States , what would you like more than anything on the face of the earth today?' And I bet you the answer would be.oil, and the next would be crold.

While we may be jubilant as Newfoundlanders, and while this qovernment and the Premier, the head of the administration, may be preoccupied with oil and can think of nothinq else only oil - and they cannot think of anything else only oil, that is all they have been talking about for the last several years ; you would not know but God Almighty was a Tory and put the oil out there for the Tories! AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. S • NEARY: You would not know, Mr. Speaker, to listen to them talk but that is the way it happened.

And if you happen to disaqree then you are a traitor. we heard a member of this House the other day called a traitor from the other side. In actual fact, Sir, it was the 652 ..,_

Marc:h 10, 1980 Tape 245 EC- 3 !Qt. S. NEARY: Liberals, it was a Liberal Govermaent that issued the fir .st permit and brought the oil companies to Newfoundland. It was the Liberal Go~t that brou¢\t SEOCO I in here , that gave NewfoWldlanders a glimpse of the first big offshore oil drilling rig. It was a Liberal Gove:rmaent that flew delegation after delegation froa this Provinc:a clown to Lollisiana, down to New Orleans, so that they could take a look a.t the offshore drilling. I haci the opportuDi:ty back - I believe it was - Alii Ral. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. S.

NEARY: I can alJDost te .ll .the bon. gentlB~Un when i.t was, because I happen to be an Honorary Member of the Senate of Louisiana and I am also Honorary Fire Chief in Morgan City in Louisiana. SOME BON. MEMBEBS : Oh, oh! 653 ~ ""

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 246 so - 1 MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what more evidence, what more proof do hon. members of this House want that it was the Liberals who started all of this. But, Mr. Speaker, we are no further ahead today, as far as protectinq the enviromaent is concerned, as far as ownership is concerned then ve were then, back in the late '60s or the mid-'60s when the first pe~t was issued to an oil company to drill off Newfoundland and Labrador. we have got a different set of requlations, that is the only thine; that has chanqed. And there it is - Louisianna State Senate. Back in 1971 ,_ Mr.

Speaker, when my hon. friend- vas still a h.iqh schoOl debate - MR. L. THOMS: And still is. MR. S. "NEAla' : - that had no more intention than the man in the moon of getting into politics ia this Provine~ 'Joey', poor old 'Joey' who is responsible for everything bad in this Province - the 1'ories are responsible, they take the credit for everything good but they blame everything bad on 'Joey'.

In 1971. he was responsible for delegation after delegation going to Louisiana to look at the impact of the offshore oil drilling and the possibility of a commercial oil discovery offshore, the impact it would have on this Province. I happened to be one of that delegation and I was made a member of the Louisiana State Senate and I remember saying to the Governor when he presented this little card to me, I said, "Governor, what can I do with that?" He said, "Well, son - SOME BON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. S.

NEARY: - you qa down to the next corner, go out of this hotel, tDrn to your left, walk down to the street corner there and you will see a policeman and you ask that policeman what to de with it and he will tell you what to de with it." SOME HON. MEMBEBS : MR. S. NEARY: did tell me. Oh, oh! I did eventually ask him and he And, Mr. Spe alter, we did look at the impact that oil will have on this Province and the possibility of 654

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 246 so - 2 MR. S. NEARY : pollution and how they deal with an oil spill in the Gul.f of Mexico • .and we saw a tremendous oil spill --a blowout -a well that blew out in the Gulf of Mexico only last year. And that blowout from that oil spewed out, I believe 1 30,000 'barrels of oil a day and that is in wazm water, that is in reasonably calm water in the Gulf -of Mexico and that oil , if you remember , drifted- went ashore as far away as Texas.

And here we are here in frigid water, in rouqh water, in water where you have ice and iceberqs and in all the jubilation, Sir, and all the excitement and the anxiety about the possibility of a commercial oil discovery offshore, ·no concern, none at all, no reference at all except what I bring up once in a while in the House and outside of the House and then qet the finqer pointed at me of being accused of beinq anti-oil, undBIIIOCratic: or unpatriotic, but there - AN HON. MEMBER: Treacherous . MR. S.

NEARY: - and treacherous ; but there is genuine concern amonqst the people of this Province about the impact of oil on the environment apart from the .· impact of oil on the social and economic lifestyie of our people 1 which is not what this bill is all about. I wish I could talk about that. As far as I can see, Mr. Speaker, this qove:rtllllent have no plans, no studies ...

If they did they would have reacted because God only knows I have qiven them the broadsides lonq enouqb. over the danqer and the possibility and the potential danqer to the fishery of this PrC)vince caused by a blowout from one of these wells or from an oil spill frcm a tanker as we saw happen in the Gulf of St. Lawrence last Winter when the Kurdistan broke in half. So I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, what effect this little bill ,which does not make it compulsory 655

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 247 GH-1 MR. NEARY: for oil companies to put their proposals before the government. And if the minister so desires,if they do write in and say we are going to start producing oil the minister could say, "Well, that is fine. We have looked at your proposal and we think this is in order.' Now,the minister would be a fool to do it but the minister could do it, if that minister so desires. Mr. Speaker, as far as I am concerned I am all for oil, I am all for it. I am all for the big boom. Whether it be a beam or a bust or not, we do not know. It is a non­ renewable resource.

Our fishery is a renewable resource. I am more inclined to protect the fishery than I am to give in to the big oil companies. But when they come in here, Mr. Speaker, when they arrive 1 and they already have arrived by the way, these cigar toting oil people with their stetson hats. I meet them every day down at the Holiday Inn. MR. J. CARTER: What are you doing down there? MR.NEARY: I go down there every morning, and I have been going there 14 years for breakfast every morning and read the newspaper. MR. MORGAN: That is how come you are so fat? MR. NEARY: I read the newspapers.

I discuss with my friends the topics of the day, the issues of the day, and han. gentlemen might be surprised who comes there to discuss various and sundry matters. They might be surprised, and I hope they would not hold it against their buddies if they showed some concern about some of the items in this Province, some of the matters in this Province, especially the offshore. But the cigar toting oil people are in here, they are the most crude, I think they are the most crude gang and the most ruthless of all the people I ever met in any industry.

Whether it be the mining industry, the fishing industry or the forest industry, they are the most crude and the most ruthless, and they could not care less. They do not give a damn; they do not give a hoot in hell about the fishery of this Province. They will tell the government - MR. MORGAN: They had better. MR. NEARY: - they will tell the government as they told me, and government ministers have taken the little bait; they have taken the hook. They say, "Oh well, down in the Gulf of Mexico, sir, do 656 ...

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 247 GH-2 MR. NEARY: you know that the best fishing is around the oil rigs, the best fishing in the Gulf of Mexico - you could sit on an oil rig and throw out your line, throw out your line and you can get all the fish you want?" MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) on bubbles. MR. NEARY: Well, they are not talking about codfish. They are not talking about herring. They are not talking about redfish.

They are not talking about the same species at all as we have out there on the Grand Banks, where the richest fishing ground is located, and right in the heart of that fishing ground you have these oil drilling rigs. That is not what they are talking about. This crowd who are so ruthless, Sir, are sitting back at the moment and laughing, laughing at this government. They are laughing at our Premier. They are laughing at the people up in Ottawa, and they are saying, "This crowd will knuckle under when we are ready, when we are ready to put the boots to them". I have heard it. MR.

MORGAN: They are not charging any (inaudible). MR. NEARY: We had better start thinking twice. The oil companies, Sir, the richest, tpe most ruthless, the most cold-hearted on the face of this earth; when they want to get their own way they will get it. ~d that is why, Mr.

Speaker, that I would feel happier and much more comfortable if the minister responsible for the environment would come into this House with a piece of legislation - make it the law of the land - a piece of legislation making it compulsory for the oil companies to put their case before the people of this Province, to hold hearings, to give the people input. Let the fishermen's union, let the fishermen, let everybody in this Province who is concerned, let them have input into whether one gallon of oil should be taken out of these wells. MR. MORGAN: It is in the regulations. MR. NEARY: No, Mr.

Speaker, it is not in the regulations. Not one single gallon of oil, as much as Newfoundland needs the revenue, as much as Newfoundland needs to strengthen its economy, and as much as we need the jobs, not one gallon of oil should be taken out of these wells until we are reasonably assured - nothing can be perfect 100 per cent - until we are reasonably assured, Mr. Speaker, that we will not ruin the fishery of this Province forever and ever. Even 657 -:.

~larch 10, 1980 Tape No. 248 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: if the oil companies said, 'Well'! If the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) is right there is $90 billion worth of oil out there in revenue to Newfound- land. Even if it has to share it is good for $45 or $50 billion. MR. L. BARRY: Not according to Mr. Trudeau's groposal. MR. S. NEARY: I thought Mr. Trude ,au said we would get 100 per cent of the revenue, 100 per cent. MR. L. BARRY: MR. S. NE.li:RY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. S. NEARY: Of what revenue? Well, I do not know what revenue. Of all revenue.

Of all revenue, yes, Sir, of all revenue until we become a have province. Well, let us not split hairs, I am talking about pollution and the environment. The hon. gentleman sa~d there could be $90 billion of revenue out there, of which Newfoundland will get $45 or $50 billion under - MR. L. BARRY: Under our (inaudible) MR. S. NEARY: - well, okay, I will concede that the minister is 100 per cent correct. I am not sure if I agree with the route that the Premier is taking, the minister seems to have a little bit different - his position is a little bit different than the Premier's. The member for St.

John's East (Mr. Marshall), his position was a little bit different than the minister's and a little bit different from the Premier's. And, Mr. Speaker, if there is one thing we cab be sure of in this session of the House, one thing that we can be sure of is that we have all kinds of experts in Newfoundland on the fishery. Everybody in Newfoundland is an expert on the fishery. And if, Mr. Speaker, there is one thing that I have learnt from the last two weeks of debating in this House, that we now have ten or a dozen constitutional experts in this House, ten or a dozen on both sides of the Rouse. 658

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 248 DW - 2 ~R. S. NEARY: We probably have more constitu- tional experts per capita than any other province of Canada. And I would submit that this issue of the ownership of the offshore will be settled somewhere in between all of the ideas and suggestions and proposals and statements that are made in this House that somewhere in between the offshore jurisdiction, management and ownership lie. with all due respect - So, Mr. Speaker, MR. W. MARSHALL: What is t.he hon. gentleman's position? !o!R. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I could tell the hon. gentleman but this is not the time to do it. MR. W.

MARSHALL: MR. S. NEARY: I can assure the hon. gentleman - Well, if I could by leave, Sir, I would be glad to tell the hon. gentleman my position but I am n6t going to get off the environment because I think this is too important a subject and I would like to find out what the hon. gentleman's position is on the potential danger of polluti~g apd ruining the fishery of this Province. They have distracted everybody in Newf .oundland, they have managed to distract everybody in Newfoundland on the ownership question, on a phony issue really. MR. G. FLIGHT: A red herring •. :·IR . S.

N E!I.R Y : Not the ownership but the govern- ment's position is a bit weak and a bit phony. MR. THOMS: Deceptive. MR. s. NEARY: Because we, Mr. Speaker, if it will put the hon. gentleman's mind at rest, we on this side of the House want Newfoundland to get 100 per cent of the benefits of the offshore resources. You cannot be any more blunt than that. SOME HON. MEMBE.S: Hear, hear! MR. L. BARRY : You are being alluded by federal (inau di~le) sucked in. MR . s. 3E ARY: We are not go ing to be sucked in to playing cheap po lic ical ga mes with t~e offshor e owne rship . 659 : ...

~1arch 10, 1980 Tape No. 248 DW - 3 MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I heard the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) the other day make a statement,! think even the minister was amazed 1 about the Alberta case back in 1912. I took the trouble to check it out and in the process I had long conversations with a couple of the top constitutional people in Canada and I discovered that the hon. gentleman was right,! told the hon. gentleman the other day.

But what the hon. gentle- man did not tell us was it is unrealistic, unreasonable to expect 1 Well, I mean if the hon. gentleman felt other- wise he would bring a bill into this House, bring in a ~ill. we will support a bill, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. gentleman will bring in a bill and can persuade Ottawa to grant New­ foundland, to extend the boundary, if he wanted to, or to give us jurisdiction over the offshore resources, bring in a ~ill and we will support it. At least I will support it. I cannot speak for my party because I happen to know that it is our right to - do it.

If we want to do it we can do it but now whether the Government of Canada will bring in concurrent legislation in Ottawa is 660 ....

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 249 EL - 1 MR• S. NEAF,Y: a matter that I eannot answer .. t MR. BARRY: Do you agree with the member for the Straitf of Bell.e Isle (E. Roberts) that they would have to get the agree~~~ent of all the other provinces? MR. S. ~: No, I do not. SOME HON. MEMBEl!5 : Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: That does not mean that there is diss~ion in the ranks. ~ut I heard the hon. gentleman's case the other day and although he had some very valid points 1 well, that was one point on which I disagree.i with hi,u.

And I am afraid there is one point on which the two constitutional people that I ccnsu1ted with and ~e hon: gentl.emen might take that name, Mr. scott by the way who - MR. BARRY: Is it Frank or Stephen ? MR. S. NEARY: No, Stephen Sc:Ott. Well, Stephen Scott 1 in .!l:Y _9pinio~ 1 i~. one of the most learned men one of - 1'~· STIRLING: lie was a(inaudfrle) idiot the othe _r day. MR.S. NEARY: No, no, n~,that was fun. ';.he hon. gentleman was poking fun at him because he was the head of a law department in another university. MR. BARRY: He is a goOd· friend of mine. MR. S. NEARY : That is right.

But the hon.gentl.eman might be well advised to ask for the assistance,because I think he is right in tune wi:th the hon. gentleman, the governments position, he seems to be, at least that is the illlpression I got • .!lnd then this 'Te.,.,foundlander of course who is an expert on constitutional matters, although -I do not think he - MR. BARRY: come on over. M.R. S. NEARY: No, wait till I tell you now, No, I have to say this - $0ME HON • MEMBERS : Come on over a.J~d join us. MR. S.

NEARY: With all due respect to Senator Forsey I have to say this 1 chat Senator Forsey 1 by the way 1up to about a week ag~ or ten days ago, felt that there would have to be unanimous consent from the other Provinces. 661

Masch 10, 1980 Tape No. 249 RA - 2 MR. MARSHALL: That was before the election. MR. S. NEARY: No, no, no, but he told me and I hope I am not divulging any - well he told me on the phone MR. THOMS: Try changing the constitution without the consent of the other provinces. Just try it. MR. S.

NEARY: What he said was this , that he had beem told by a top constitutional lawyer in canada recently that the proposal that the hon. gentleman made the other day, it was possible to do;it, it was possible to do it but 1 as I say, it was unrealistic and very unlikely, very unlikely it would be done But he also told me this; After the 1930 agreements that were made with the Prairie Provinces when they were given the resources , that most people in Canada feel that it is the law,that you have to get unanimous agreement of the other provinces before you can extend boundaries, before you can give Provinces jurisdiction over resources and sof6rth.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. S. NEARY: N?, No, the Senator told me that that is not so,. Only recently he has come to realize that this is a custom that grew up,and the only time that you have to get the unanimous consent of the Provinces is when you are amending the constitution and in this case this ~rould not be considered to be an amendment to the constitution. MR. BARRY: Only with certain amendments of the constitution, not all. MR. S. NEARY: That is right~ That is right. MR. W. MARSHl!LL: Are you going to pressure your brothers in Ottawa to bring in a bill into the House of Conmons! MR. S. NEARY: No.~r.

Speaker, I will tell you what I will do, I will pressure my bronhers here to bring in a bill into this House. And the hon. gentleman indicated or the minister indicated that they were ~reparing a bill. Well, bring in the bill and I guarantee you here is one fellow here who will support it. MR. MORGAN: The Strait's member (Mr. Roberts) wil l not be voting, obviously. 662 ""

Marc h 10 , 1980 Tape No. 249 RA - 3 MR. S. NEARY: Well , I think it is a matter of conscience. This matter should be put above partisan politics. It should be a straight matter of conscience. Tha~ is why we are asking the government to agree to a select committee of this House, to make it non-partisan, that the committee will be made up of elected members on both sides of the House. AN HON. MEMBER: Third speech today. MR. S. NEARY: Anyway , Mr. 1 Speaker , these are just a few views that I have on the ownership but I am really dealing with a bill here that has to do with the environment.

And I started out really by-what I think get gentlemen interrupting therein my speech ,was tha fact that I claimed that this bill should make it compulsory, because when the oil barons, especially the ones from the United States,when they are finished with this government and the minister they will not know but they were dragged through a wr:Wlger . . They will think they were dragged thrcuqh a bag of nails. And that is when you need the teeth, you need some teeth in this kind of legislation so you 663

---- March 10, 1980 Tape No. 250 IB-1 MR. NEARY: can say to these moneybags from Texas 1 or wherever they come from, from Mobil 1 who are not lilly white and simon Pure when it comes to making an under the table deal we just saw recently, I have here in front of me some clippings from newspapers in the United States where the President of Mobil just set up his son in the shipping business that is being questioned by papers like the Washington Post. "Father, Son Tie In Mobil Oil Shipping Venture." There is detail. Worth reading. It would be worthwhile for ministers to get these.

"Kin Linked In Venture from Mobil~"Father, Son In Mobil Venture•, the Washington Post back in November of last year. I do not think I have to tell members of this House about the oil companies, all they have to do is watch Dallas on television,And if they think that is an exaggeration -the oil companies are just as capable. That is small potatoes. That is a watered down version of what they do. "Mobil Denies Reported Improper Link". Mobil is the one now that is drilling offshore here. "Second Washington Post story without foundation, Mobil angrily declares.

I read the whole story and they made a very, very weak case. c What I am saying here, sir, that the legislation as good as it is, and it is a bit of a reform, but as good as it is it is not as good as making it compulsory for companies like Mobil which are not beyond stooping to any level-and if they want the oil out there they will get it and if we want to argue about the threat to the fishery, whether they are going to pollute our environment, whether we are going to see dead fish and dead birds around this Province - ah, the President of the Council, the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) looks at me and says, "Well, we will stand up to them . • What famous last words. I have been hearing that for the last six or seven years, how the Premier of this Province was going to stand up to everybody. He stood up all right. He 664 :..

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 250 IB-2 MR. NEARY: caved in for a few paltry dollars. For thirty pieces of silver he caved in. I am talking about the Premier's predecessor and I dp not mean J.R. MR. J. CARTER: bit. MR. NEARY: quite a bit. That narrows it down quite a That is right, that narrows it down Mr. Speaker, the big oil companies,when they want to get their own way, they will start bullying and pushing and elbowing and shoving and using whatever influence and patronage they can. They have already done it.

I know one case where they have put a person they think can help, they have put one person they think can influence and help them in getting the right decisions in this Province, just put him on the payroll recently for $75,000, a person they tbink in Newfoundland can help them~ put him on the payroll. MR. BARRY: Which company is that? MR. NEARY: Which company? Mobil. And I will tell the han. gentleman lateG when I do a little more research 1 the name of the individual and then we might have a couple of more police investigations.

That is the way they operate and if we have a weak Minister responsible for the Environment they are going to get their own way. It is the most crucial thing in this Province right now, Mr. Speaker. And the hon. the Premier (Mr. Peckford), I think, made reference the other day on one of the programmes he was on 1 his message about the oil does not seem to be getting through. Well 1 his message is getting through. Andpeople are becoming very concerned at what they are hearing because, Mr.

Speaker, even a Kindergarten student knows that wit~ all the technology available on the face of the earth today,/and the fact that the oil companies have spent millions of dollars on that technology to cope with an oil spill offshore or a blowout in one of the wells,that the 665

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 250 IB-3 MR. NEARY: technology does not exist and the answer - and I have been doing a tremendous amount of research on this - and the answer that I am getting is frightening. The coast guard, for instance, will say, Look 1 well we can cope with the technology that the oil companies have provided us with, 666 --

March 10, 1980 Tape 251 HB- 1 MR. S. NEARY: which is the latest on the face of the earth. we can cope with an oil spill of 20,000 bUrels and vou say l to th- well how about if you get an oil spill of 30,000 barrels? MR. BABRY: You cannot even quote the value of the (inaudilllel MR. S. NEARY : Exactly, that is exactly what I was going to say. MR. BAilBY: (Inaudible) MR. S. NEARY: The 20 ,000 barrels they ue talking about,they can cope with under ideal conditions.

But if you say can you cope with 20,000 barrels a day like they did in the Gulf of Mexico for, say, fifty days, a hundred days, two and a half months, and they will have to say;' _No, we cannot, not in the frigid waters that we have here. not in the rough water we have here,we cannot cope with it. Mr. Speaker, that is a frightening thought. ~ as much as I want to see the oil coming ashore , and there seems to be some argument about the me-thod of how that oil is going to be loaded into tankers;,- Will it be loaded at the wellhead, will there .be a pipeline ccmin! into shore?

There seems to be a difference of opinion between the government and the oil companies on how that is going to happen. The oil companies apparently favour loading at the well- head. The govern~~~ent says,' no dice you have to bring it into shore~ We have not got that problem straightened out. And if there is a pipeline coming into shore, has there been sufficient research, have there been sufficient studies made of the possibility of bringing a pipeline in and the potential danger from icebergs and ice and rough weather? Have there been enough studies done] Have there been any studies done?

Well, we do not know because we have been asking questions for the last couple of years from this side of the House and the government has been so pre- occupied playing little political games and political trickery and manoeuvring with the offshore jurisdiction and ownership that they have refused to give us any information. The Premier on two occasions in ~~is House promised me, in answer to questions that I put to the hon. gentleman 1that there would be a major debate in this House,soon he said, this session 1on the potential danger of a blowout or an oil spill off 667

March 10, 1980 Tape 251 MB- 2 MR. S. NEARY: our co&s~, and we hilve not seen it. Is it any wonder we come in and &sk for a select COIIIIIIittee under these circumstancl!tl?- : We hilve no infomation before us. I wrote the oil companies, I wired the oil companies, I wrote the Coast Guard, I wrote the minister in Ottaw& responsible · and all I got, Mr. Speaker , al.l I got in response was a little booklet on the re-arch that is being done on the movement of iceberqe by c-core. That is all I got.

Go down ~ check my :files, I would not waste my time bringing it into the House- An experiment that Bruneau arranged where you go out and you put a cable or run a rope around a larqe iceberq and you can move it out of its path, say a fraction of an inch, which if it is an' oil d=illing rig it may just pass by the oil drilling rig. But if you have a pipeline you cannot move it enough to get away from the pipeline. We do not know enouqh ~ut the movement of icebergs in this .Province ~haw you can deal with that kind of situ~ Mr. speaker , I think that the fishery and oil can be compatible.

We do not know enough about the impact on the environment at the moment of a major commercial oil discovery off our coast and the production of oil on the Grand Banks which is right in the heart of our richest fishery area in this Province. But Newfoundlanders are becoming very concerned about it, Mr. Speaker, they are asking questions about all the Cadillacs and all the Lincoln Continentals and all the four-wheel drives that are going around now looking for land, land grabbers, real estate speculators, they are around this Province like maggots. The government has done nothing about it, not a thing.

They told us they are setting up a directorate to deal with this. They locked the barn door after the horse was stolen. These fellows with their brief cases and their Lincoln Con- tinentals and their Cadillacs _ You can hardly step outside your door now, you are likely to have the land bought right out from under you. They are just like maggots around the Avalon Peninsula , especiall~ and in other parts of Newfoundland and the government has done nothing about it, no more ~~ they have done anything about this matter of protecting the environment. Fishermen are becoming very concerned, 668

March lO, 1980 Tape 251 MB ..- 3 MR.. S. NEARY: fish plant workers, people qeneraU.y, because people rea,lize this is a renewable resource, it is so-thinq we have had fo;r !our or five h.undred years, it is something that can susta.i.n the econoJIIy of Newfoundland for aver and ever and somethinq that is beinq en~qered and threatened by all the 669 ""

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 252 GH-1 MR. NEARY: industrial activity that is going on, especially the offshore drilling. I am not knocking it and I do not want anybody to stand up in this House from the other side and accuse me of being unpatriotic, of knocking the oil. I am so happy.

If I was Premier of this Province I would get down on my hands and knees every night and thank almighty God for giving us oil, just the same as 'Joey' used to say - he used to get down on his hands and knees and thank almighty God for the iron ore in Labrador, for the water power in Labrador, for Buchans and for the forest industry and for the warehouse of wealth that we had in Labrador, 'Joey' used to thank almighty God. Well, Mr. Speaker, members on both sides of this House should thank almighty God but more especially the Premier.

He should get on his knees and say, 'O~God, I know you are not a Tory; I know you love Liberals; I know you love NDPers and Social Crediters; I know you love everybody but we especially want to thank you for allowing these permits and these oil drillings rigs that were brought in here by the Liberals back in the mid '60's. We are glad, we are glad, oh Lord, that you did not allow those oil companies to discover oil when they were in because we would never get them out.

Now you have allowed oil to be discovered while we are in and we want to thank you, oh heavenly Father, for being so good and so gracious and so kind. Is it any wonder that we are born again? Is it any wonder that we can sweep seven years of corruption under the carpet when here we have the oil? 1 Mr. Speaker, I will tell you one thing, I will tell you one thing. If I was Premier of this Province today, if I was Premier, and I could not wish for anything to happen to me better than oil or gold, to discover gold - and there is gold down in Lapoile district by the way. They cannot lose.

If they are not there forever, Sir, it would be a queer thing to me. If they are not there for at least 50 years it will be a funny thing - MR. MORGAN: Come on over here. MR. NEARY: - Mr. Speaker, they will not be re-elected the way they are going about it now. They have made such a shambles 1 and this is why the Premier says the message is not getting through, they have made such a shambles of the negotiations for the offshore jurisdiction: they have made such a shambles of the important matter of protecting the 670 .·

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 252 GH-2 MR. NEARY: environment and protecting ~e people on low income, the people on fixed incomes in this Province. Where right now we are in the middle of an oil boom, everybody has the oil boom syndrome, but there is no boom, and people are paying through the nose for everything. The cost of living is going up. You cannot buy a building lot around, St. John's right now, you cannot buy it. How are young couples in this P-rovince going to ever own a house?

Their chances ~fore were ( miriimal but now they are worse - because the Premier was out, r think, when I mentioned these fellows with the cadillacs and the Lincoln Continentals and the four-wheel drives and the briefcases going around the countryside looking for real estate. They are just like maggots out in the countryside. What has the government done about that? No more than they have done about this matter of the environment and this bill is not going to take care of the serious situation that I am referring to.

It is a good bill as far as it goes - nothing wrong with it. we are going to vote for it, but I would feel much happier and my people over here would feel much happier if this Legislature made it compulsory for oil companies to submit their applications to an independent commission, where people can have input.[rhe people can express their views aJld their concerns about the possibility of polluting the environment. Why last year, Mr. Speaker, last year down in St.

Mary's- 1the Capes, down in my hon. friend's district, birds by the hundreds, their fea-thers covered with this sticky, gooey oil from the Kurdistan perished and drifted in on the beaches. And then the minister now who is introducing 671

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 253 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY: this bill and the mandarins in the department did not have sense enough to collect _the oil and haul it away somewhere and burn it or bury it, burried it on the beaches and all you need is a goad rough sea ~ around Point La Haye and it will be back out in the water again. That is the kind of ptotection we are getting of the end1rolllllent - bury the oil on the beaches. Now the minister may get up and argue~ "Well, we could not get it up_ over the roc:Jc:s or the cliffs.~ Wel~ over in Nova Scotia they lift it up in helicopters. I Mr.

Speaker , the minister also told us some time ago,in answer to a question that I put on the Order Paper 1 that the government have selected five sites around Newfoundland - five dumps - they are preparing themselves for the day when there will be a spill offshore,whether it be from a tanker or f.em a blowout in an oil we1L- five sites, five dumps they have selected around Newfoundland. Well, Mr.

Speaker, did the minister give the people in these areas an opportunity to have input into the selection of these sites; or did the minister and her mandarins just arbitrarily make a decision that there is going to be a dump here for oil that we recover from offshore whether you like it or not? Because I understand that some of the municipalities , and some of the people in these designated areas were not very pleased that that particular dump was selected as the dump for offshore oil in the event there is a major spill ~ even a medium sized spill off our coast. So, Mr.

Speaker, I did not intend to make a major speech a~ this particular point in time but I get so emotional and so worked up 1 l'.r. Si=eaker 1 over t..'le fact , and I am just an average Newfoundlander, and I am sure that hon. gentlemen can share the concern of the average Newfoundlander as well as the concern of the vested interest 1because the point of views that we are getting from the administration is a St. John's business -:. 672

March 10 , 1989 Tape No. 253 so- 2 MR. S. NEARY: establishlilent point of view, that is what we are getting, the vested interest point of view downtown St. John's, the ones that 'Joey' had to fight so hard against to get Newfoundland into Confederation, that he had to fight so hard against for twenty-three years. Now this administration has caved in and are now in bed with the St. John's business establishment. And that is the point of view they are getting and they are saying, "Oh, Mr. Premier and Mr.

Government, pay no attention to fellows like Neary, pay no attention to fellows like Thoms , pay no attention to this one or that one-,, all they are trying to do is knock the offshore and we can see a chance to make a billion. So the hell with them, pay no attention to them, this foolish nonsense about polluting the ocean and ruining the fishery.·- Sure all you have got to do, Mr.

Premier, is get somebody to go out on the rig with a colour cmnera and we will tell them all about how we can protect the environment and we will shoot out all of the propaganda that we can and we will show movies and pictures of how we deal with oil spills and how we have not had one in the North Sea and how we have not had one here. We will deal with all that foolish nonsense so pay no attention to them." That is the point of view we are getting from the administration. The vested interest in St. John's, the money grabbers, the greedy - I will not mention names - forming up companies - MR. G.

FLIGHT: Something happens. MR. S. NEARY: Ah, Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Premier once in awaile shows a little sign of being courageous, says, "Oh, Newfoundland businesses are going to benefit by this offshore " resource.Md then what do we see? West Ge:cnan companies coming in here and usinq our greedy moneybags here in Newfoundland - MR. J. CARTER: Can you name the companies? MR. S. NEARY: - Yes, I can name the companies using our moneybags downtown as fronts. We know who is going to make the money offshore. We know who has bought 673

Harch 10, 1980 Tape No. 254 DW - 1 - MR. S. NEARY: all of the land and all of the r~al estate and all of the industrial sites and all of the housing developments. we know who is going to make the money off it, it is not going to he the average Newfoundlander. It is going to be the oil companies and the greedy moneybags in st. John's, it will not be the average New£oundlander. If the Premier had any sense right now what he would do is invite Petrocan in, kick out the oil companies, bring in Petrocan and let t.hem take control of the offshore develop- ment.

Petrocan is a Crown corporation owned by the people of this country. That would ae a courageous move~ Never mind once in a while shqw:i.ng a little spark of courage and then when the oil companies want to take his picture and put it in 'Oil Week' they can do it thirteen times. I get very eoncerned. Although sometimes I wonder about the Premier - I really have not got him sized up yet,I mean there are times when I have to come in here and have to lash out • and then today when we saw this little act of courage on the part of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) I wonder if the Premier is for real.

I am hoping he is. I am hoping that he does not back down from these big oil companies, that he will not weaken when they flash a camera in front of him 1 or they put a big jet at his disposal that he will not weaken. matter - It is too import~nt a PREMIE ·R PECKFORD: Pan Am is holding (inaudible). MR. S. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can tell the hen. gentleman right now that if he maintains his stand, his position, his thoughts and his attitude he might get a supporter where he least e~pects it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Fear, hear! 674 .,:

March 10, 1980 Tape No . 254 DW - 2 1-!R . S. NEARY: Nothing would give me greater ple*stire than to join the hon. gentleman in taking on the oil companies of this world. MR. PECKFORD: {Inaudible) another (inaudible) this morninq. MR. S. NEARY: Yes, I know the hon. gentle- man - the hon. gentleman almost re.signed from the Cabi.net because of the pressure from his colleagues. pREMIER PECKFORD: What really hurt me was that the next day (inaudible l the hon. m.ember (inaudible l . MR. S. NEARY: No, that is not what I said at all, not what I said. PREMIER PECKFORD: I remember it. MR. S.

NEARY: Oh, yes I remember it too. And that is not the first time the bon. gentleman men- tioned it. The bon. gentleman almost resigned be~ause of the pressure from his Cabinet colleagues that the oil companie·s would not come back here because of the regulations, the stiff regulation~. But they came • back and they wi11 be back again. They are laughing now, they are sneering now,I hear it all the time. They are laughing at t.he hon. gentleman, they are laughing at us on this side, they are laughing at the politicians up in Otta;"a.

They are saying, , 'When we are ready to deal with that crowd, we will deal with them'. PREMIER PECKFORD: As long as we have control and power (inaudible) that is what concerns me, that is why I would like to (inaudible) perhaps this week or next I will spend as much time as the rules allow me to persuide the hon. gentleman that if he i* serious in what he is saying now he not only is going to cross the House and co.me over here and join us in this great battle 1 but he is going to do a lot more than that when we have to sit down and talk seriously about whether we have any power to do anything. 675 ,.

~arch 10, 1980 Tape No. 254 ow - 3 MR. S. NEARY: Oh, well, now that is a different matter but I do not know. PREMIER PECKFORD: ).l.R. S. NEARY: But that is the key to it. Mr. Speaker, I think from my seat in this House and from my own vantage point that I can help the Premier and the government and the people of this Province just as much as I could if I sat in a seat over there. Because what I feel over here I would feel over there so it does not make any difference. PREMIER PECKFORD: I would ask the hen. gentle- man over the next few days to contemplate very seriously - MR. S. NEARY: Do not play politics.

PREMIER PECKFORD: - no. - to contemplate very seriously that idea.Forget about politics and forget crossing floors and forget about supporting anybody. Jus~ think very importantly about that idea because everything the hen. member says is valid, wha~ you are talking a·bout no·w is valid and your points are well made but what I am scared of is that what you do not see is that all you are talking about has no bearing on this House, on this government, on nobody in Newfoundland unless we have some power. MR. S. NEARY: HR. L. STTRLING: PREMIER PECKFORD: t1R. S. NEARY: PRElHER PECKFORD: close shop now. MR. S.

NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, okay I understand that. Do you agree to (inaudible) to do that. No, no. I understand com~letely. Otherwise we mi~ht as well That is right. Close her do,~n. It has nothing to do with a select committee at all, a select committee. nothing to do wit h 676 ~ ~

:1arch 10, 1980 Tape No. 254 ow - 4 :·!::!. 5. NEARY: As a matter of fact,! thought earlier,only I did not want to be accused of playing politics 1 of bringing in a resolution along these lines. But !'did ·put a private members' motion on the Order Paper;as you can see,for the select committee. And I do not kn.ow why the Premier does not go for that. He might be pleasantly - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) up that resolution. MR. S. NEARY: All tight, okay, but anyway I look forward to the Premier's participation in this debate because as he knows the protection of the environ­ ment.

As the hon. gentleman told ~e last year on two occasions - PREMIER PECXFORD: T~at is why that Bill No. 1 (inaudible). MR. 5. NEARY: But it does not make it compulsory, that is the thing that worries me. AN HON. ~-l.EMBER: .MR. S. NEARY: Read it. I read it. .Where the minister deci4es that an environmental impact statement is not required 677

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 255 GH-1 MR. NEARY: the proponent may proceed with the undertaking. The minister shall examine or cause to be examined the information. It is always the minister.

It is not compulsory and that is why if the han. gentleman would really want to prove something today, to say 1Well, forget this: Look down here, 'The board where the minister receives indication of strong public interest in any undertaking: The other thing, by the way, that I might point out for the Premier's information is that, sure, you can make the gesture as we did with the Public Utilities Board, that the people can have input and they can make presentations to these commissions and these committees but they do not have the resources to do it.

Will the Premier place at the disposal of the people of this Province the resources so that they can make an intelligent presentation, so that they can make a very worthwhile and meaningful presentation, and not just go in with a little brief that they have had to sit down amonst themselves and prepare? They want to have technicians; they want to nave expertise at their dispoa~l the same as the oil companies, the same as the uranium - as .BRINCO have. Then the other thing, Mr. Speaker, will these reports be brought to the House and tabled in the House?

Will we get the report, for instance, that was recently done by Mr. Powell and his committee on the environmental impact on the uranium mine up in Makkovik. Will that report, if it is in, will it be tabled in the House? So, as I said a few moments ago, I do not really know how to take the Premier but I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, and if he is prepared to level with me and the people of this Province then I am prepared to level with him and give him all the support that he deserves. We are going to support this piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker.

It is a step in the right direction, but it does put too much power in the hands of the minister and the mandarins in that department, and that is the weakness of it. The minister can get up and tell us, "Oh, well, I will do the right thing", but we have heard that before in this han. House. And who decides whether it is the right thing or not, the minister? It should be compulsory, Mr. Speaker it should be made mandatory upon every company, every individual, every concern, everybody who wants to proceed with a project in this Province. 678

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 255 GH-2 MR. NEARY: It should be compulsory, it should be the law of the land that they have to put their proposal before an independent environmental impact committee. That should be mandatory; It should be the law of the land. It should be a law passed by this Legislature. MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: should be - MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: What about public hearings? Pardon? (Inaudible) public hearings be held? And public hearings held, that is what I said, Regulations (inaudible). Beg your pardon? Regulations (inaudible). MR.

NEARY: The regulations, we do not even see the regulations in this House. MR. MORGAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: Governor in Council - MR. ROBERTS : MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) regulations. The regulations can be changed overnight. Regulations can be changed by the Lieutenant Any time. - any time they feel like changing them.

But what I am saying is that this sort of legislation, as good as it is, is really 1 in effect 1 weak because it does not make it compulsory for these companies and individuals and concerns to put their proposaJS to the test and the test is public opinion, and put the resources at the hands of the general public so that they can make - if they going to have input let it be meaningful input. But having said that, Mr. Speaker, I am sure other members on this side of the House would care to speak on this bill.

This is probably one of the most important items to come before this House in recent years. we are going to support the bill. We only wish that the minister had seen fit to give the legislation a little more teeth and make it compulsory for these companies to put their proposals before an independent commission and let the public have input before th€y are approved. 679

March 10, 1980 ~IR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR . BARRY: '!.'ape No. 255 GH-3 The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy . Mr . Speaker, it is a real pleasure to sit across tile Bouse from the ho n. member today and listen to the reason and logic and the desire to see t.'lat the public interest is protected and to see him agree , Mr. Speaker, with the efforts of this government and to hear his comments that he and hon. members opposite are prepared to support 680

March 10, 1980 Tape No. 256 IB-1 MR. BARRY: the bill 1 which has to be one the most momentous ever to be brought before this hon. House 1 will definitely do more to protect the traditional lifestyle of our people , to protect very important things in this Province which have not received adequate protection in the past. In our haste to see development,in our haste to see mines de~eloped, hydro projects developed, other economic opportunities